Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7498

1 Thursday, 8 July 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. May I remind you of the affirmation

7 you took at the beginning of your evidence, which still applies: There

8 was an objection to evidence yesterday concerning one mortar. It has been

9 decided in the exercise of discretion to allow that evidence.

10 Mr. Petrovic.

11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 Examined by Mr. Petrovic [Continued]:

15 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Pepic.

16 A. Good morning.

17 Q. Towards the end of the day yesterday, you mentioned some firing

18 positions of the Croatian side that you saw in the Old Town of Dubrovnik,

19 and I should now like to ask you to take a look at this map carefully and

20 to mark the spot where it was that you saw this from Zarkovica, where you

21 were that morning. So could you please place that on the overhead

22 projector and place a cross at the spot at which you saw the artillery

23 pieces of the Croatian side, and next to each of these pieces please write

24 a number. And then we'll go on to explain what you saw and what all this

25 was about. But carefully and slowly, please.

Page 7499

1 A. I'm going to turn the map in my own line of vision, the way I saw

2 the area.

3 Q. Yes. Please put the map in front of you, and once you have marked

4 it, place it back on the ELMO. Thank you.

5 A. It would be a good idea if I had a magic marker.

6 Q. I can't see where you've put the cross.

7 A. This is the position.

8 Q. Can the witness be provided with a magic marker, please, because

9 we can't see the pencil mark.

10 A. This is the position of the mortar.

11 Q. Just a moment, Mr. Pepic.

12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Is there a magic marker in the

13 house in some colour so we can make a visible cross and marking on the

14 map?

15 Q. Could you use the magic marker now, please.

16 A. [Marks]

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Counsel.

18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Yesterday, unless I'm mistaken, you mentioned having seen flashes

20 from one of the lateral streets on Stradun, towards Stradun. Did you mark

21 that on the map?

22 A. I apologise. I thought you just meant the entrance.

23 Q. Now, next to each of these spots, points, could you add a number,

24 please.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 7500

1 Q. Mr. Pepic, what have you marked with number 1? What did you see

2 there and where is it? Where's the location, the spot, number 1?

3 A. Number 1 is the mortar, the mortar that was moved. It was pulled

4 out and withdrawn into a shelter. Now, whether it entered town or not, I

5 wasn't able to see that. Number 2 --

6 Q. Just slowly, please. So that was number 1.

7 A. Number 1.

8 Q. Did you see that piece fire, the number 1 piece?

9 A. No, I did not, because my attention wasn't geared towards it.

10 Q. Thank you. Now, number 2, what is that?

11 A. Number 2 is an anti-aircraft gun, 20-millimetre. As far as I

12 could see, it was up at Kula and firing from Kula. I didn't see it

13 actually fire. I was told that it fired by my colleagues.

14 Q. Thank you. Now, number 3, what is that?

15 A. Number 3 is the observed fire, the flashes that came from the

16 side-streets. I'm not sure whether it was this street or that street.

17 That is why I marked the two spots. But it was one artillery piece, not

18 two pieces, just one. And it was in the centre, to the left.

19 Q. You say you saw flashes. What kind of flashes were they?

20 A. They were flashes when you fire a mortar shell. The firing of a

21 mortar shell. You get these flashes of light.

22 Q. How were you able to recognise that these were flashes of light

23 when a shell, a mortar shell, or any other shell, is fired?

24 A. Well, that was my assumption, and I based and confirmed my

25 assumption by the testimony of other commanding officers. The shells were

Page 7501

1 falling all over Bosanka and Strincjera, coming from that spot.

2 Q. Thank you. Would you sign the map, and I'd like to tender the map

3 into evidence as a Defence exhibit. And put today's date as well, please.

4 Thank you.

5 A. [Marks]

6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] May I tender this map as a Defence

7 exhibit, please, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

9 THE REGISTRAR: This document is marked D104.

10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Pepic, did you on that day, that is to say the 6th of

12 December, see firing at JNA units from some positions that were not in the

13 Old Town but were in the vicinity or near the Old Town?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. Tell us, please, what you observed and from what point, from

16 where.

17 A. As I said yesterday, this was from the tennis courts by the

18 Libertas Hotel, and it is the line of vision, Zarkovica, Stari Grad,

19 Babin Kuk, that line of vision.

20 Q. Thank you. Did you notice any firing in the area between the Old

21 Town on the slopes of Srdj? And if you did, please tell us. If not,

22 we'll move on.

23 A. On the slopes of Mount Srdj, I noticed -- no, I did not notice

24 them firing -- any firing from them.

25 Q. From Zarkovica, was there firing on these fire positions that you

Page 7502

1 marked on the map that was in front of you a moment ago?

2 A. Yes, there was.

3 Q. Was there firing, to the best of your knowledge, exclusively

4 targeting the fire-power positions of the opposite side?

5 A. The firing came exclusively from --

6 MR. WEINER: [Previous translation continues]... the counsel is

7 testifying.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel, please. Microphone.

9 MR. WEINER: Counsel is testifying. These are very important

10 areas and the witness should be testifying.

11 JUDGE PARKER: You are very clearly putting the answers you want

12 to the witness, and this is a very important area. Now watch the

13 questioning. Thank you.

14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

15 Q. At what targets were fired at from Zarkovica?

16 A. As I started to say, the firing came from targets, fire targets,

17 from a number of directions, whether from Strincjera or the slopes of

18 Srdj, and the firing came, what I saw, the firing came from the Maljutka

19 laser type weapon, the 9K11. It was targeting the mortar, the anti-cannon

20 gun to the right and the mortar to the left, and the mortar that I saw

21 firing in the -- on the left-hand side -- on the left street of Stradun.

22 Q. Who ordered the opening of fire, the firing that you're talking

23 about?

24 A. Well, I don't know about the chain of command, but the command of

25 the anti-armoured company gave the order, and I suppose his superior

Page 7503












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Page 7504

1 commander gave him the order.

2 Q. And who was the superior commander?

3 A. It was Captain Kovacevic, the battalion commander.

4 Q. Could you tell us, please, who fired using the 9K11 Maljutka

5 rocket?

6 A. The commander of the platoon did, of the launching pieces. He was

7 an active duty-officer.

8 Q. What was his name?

9 A. I'm not quite sure. I think his name was Hodza. At least that's

10 what they called him.

11 Q. Did anybody else open fire from the Maljutka 9K11s on that morning

12 on the 6th of December?

13 A. At that time, Captain Nesic, company commander, fired from a

14 mortar, and I later learnt, or rather, he told me that he had fired a

15 number of rockets, but I didn't actually see that. So that means --

16 Q. Thank you, Witness.

17 A. May I be allowed to finish, please?

18 Q. Go ahead.

19 A. Captain Nesic used the mortar and fired --

20 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Weiner.

21 MR. WEINER: Two grounds. He seemed to have finished his

22 statement. And number 2, there is nothing, there is no disclosure to us

23 that any discussion of Maljutkas was going to occur. In fact, yesterday,

24 the Court said to counsel: Are you moving on to other areas? Are we

25 finished with at least those items that we had already talked about? And

Page 7505

1 counsel indicated he was. We're now beyond any type of disclosure. I

2 have no objection to him testifying to these areas, but give the

3 Prosecution some notice. This isn't trial by ambush.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic, has there been notice about firing of

5 Maljutkas?

6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we informed about the

7 opening of fire, and we all know in this courtroom, very well, what was

8 used to fire from Zarkovica. That was mentioned many times, and the

9 Prosecution witness talked about that. So if we're talking about

10 Zarkovica, in the presence of somebody at Zarkovica on that particular

11 morning, of course we're going to mention everything that was testified to

12 by Witness B, Witness Jokic. That goes without saying. And they did make

13 mention of firing, the opening of fire. So I really don't see what

14 additional information I ought to supply. And firing from Zarkovica was

15 something that was included in the information and indeed during

16 yesterday's testimony of this witness. Thank you, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE PARKER: I take it from that that you accept that no notice

18 was given of firing of Maljutkas.

19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Specifically about the Maljutka

20 pieces, no. But about firing from Zarkovica, yes.

21 JUDGE PARKER: I would take the view, Mr. Petrovic, that you

22 should not ask further questions about the Maljutka.

23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, of course I have to

24 abide by your ruling.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on.

Page 7506

1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 Q. Mr. Pepic, let us not mention the Maljutkas any more. So we're

3 just discussing the firing, the opening of fire from Zarkovica. Was there

4 any competition in opening fire from Zarkovica on that morning of the 6th

5 of December, for example, 1991?

6 A. Heaven forbid. No.

7 Q. Could anybody who wanted to fire open fire on that morning from

8 Zarkovica, to the best of your knowledge?

9 A. May I be allowed to expand on this answer? At that point in time,

10 there were at least three men dead by that time.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Answer only the questions that are put to you by

12 counsel. Thank you.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was impossible. We were busy

14 saving lives. Thank you.

15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. What about warship Captain Zec? Was he present when fire was

17 being opened from Zarkovica at those targets that you marked for us on the

18 map that you have in front of you?

19 A. Yes, he was.

20 Q. Thank you very much.

21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further

22 questions.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Weiner.

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Weiner:

25 Q. Good morning, sir.

Page 7507

1 A. Good morning.

2 Q. My name is Philip Weiner. I work for the Office of the

3 Prosecutor. I'm going to be asking you some questions, all right.

4 A. [In English] I understand.

5 Q. Now, sir, have you ever been to the Old Town previously?

6 A. [Interpretation] Many times.

7 Q. And you're familiar with the area, of the Old Town, having been

8 there several times?

9 A. Yes, I am.

10 Q. And you are aware its historical, cultural, and religious

11 importance of the buildings that were in there? That were buildings of --

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And that you know that within those walls of the Old Town, there

14 are many very old buildings, practically ancient buildings?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you're aware that there were several religious buildings,

17 churches, a synagogue, an Orthodox church, a mosque?

18 A. As I said before, I am aware of all these, yes.

19 Q. And that you're aware that although the Stradun is a wide street

20 or a large street, that there are many very small and narrow streets off

21 the Stradun?

22 A. Yes. The side-streets. Stradun is the broadest street.

23 Q. And some of those streets are so narrow you could practically put

24 your hands on each side and touch the houses on each side, some of those

25 streets are so narrow?

Page 7508

1 A. Yes. It's typical of the way streets are built in Dalmatia.

2 Q. And you also know that there are tall buildings which they call

3 palaces or we call town houses in the United States, and these tall

4 buildings, you referred to a few of them on one of those side-streets,

5 would you say they're roughly 16 to 18 metres tall?

6 A. They have many floors. I'm not sure about the height of those

7 buildings, but if that's what you say, then you must be right, I guess.

8 They are quite tall.

9 Q. They are quite tall. And you know it's a compact and congested

10 area? You know that, sir? The Old Town, all those streets there, it's a

11 compact and congested area within the walls?

12 A. Yes. The Old Town, and it has ramparts around it.

13 Q. Yes. Walls and ramparts. And you also know that there were

14 people living there. Whether refugees or the locals, there were a lot of

15 people living there in December 1991?

16 A. Yes. It was not exactly a residential area of Dubrovnik, but

17 there were quite a number of people living there, yes.

18 Q. And people were living in those homes along those narrow streets

19 in those palaces or town houses?

20 A. There were a lot of cafes there, but there were people living

21 there too on the upper floors.

22 Q. Okay. And were you aware that the Old Town was a protected site,

23 a UNESCO protected site?

24 A. By all means, yes, I was.

25 Q. And were you aware, as an observer, that there were orders that

Page 7509












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Page 7510

1 the Old Town is not to be shelled?

2 A. That's right. But no one was allowed to fire from it either.

3 Q. Were you aware -- first, do you know who General Blagoje Adzic was

4 at the time, the Chief of Staff for the Main Staff in Belgrade?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And were you aware of his orders not to shell cultural and

7 protected property, that certain steps had to be taken before cultural and

8 protected property was shelled?

9 A. Even before he issued that order, we had already had clear orders

10 not to shell any residential areas, or to avoid that as much as we could.

11 But as soon as fire is opened from there, it becomes a target itself.

12 MR. WEINER: May the witness be shown Exhibit P119, please.

13 Q. Sir, could you go to the last page, the third page in the B/C/S,

14 or the last page in the Bosnian/Serb/Croatian translation, which would be

15 the last page in the English. The last sentence right above the

16 signature. It says: It begins: I strictly -- do you see that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And it says: "I strictly forbid the attacks on Dubrovnik."

19 Correct?

20 A. [In English] Correct.

21 Q. There is no qualifier there that you can fire upon Dubrovnik, even

22 if you're receiving fire, is there, in that document?

23 A. [Interpretation] In the theory of war, this is not prescribed, but

24 in theory, if we're suffering casualties from somewhere, we have to spot

25 the place clearly and we have to define it as a firing position, which

Page 7511

1 must be targeted.

2 Q. I'm asking you about this order from the commander of the

3 2nd Operational Group, dated 24 October 1991, and it says: "I strictly

4 forbid the attacks in Dubrovnik." It doesn't indicate any qualifier,

5 saying that you can fire under certain conditions. This letter right

6 here. This order right here. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. WEINER: Could the witness be shown D47, please.

9 Q. And that again is from your commander, the commander of the

10 2nd Operational Group. And if you look at paragraph 4 -- could you look

11 at that, please.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And it says: "Do not open fire at the Old Town in Dubrovnik."

14 And there is a qualifier: "The units which are exposed to enemy fire are

15 to be retreated to cover." Isn't that what it says?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And it says --

18 A. Point 4.

19 Q. -- enemy fire troops are to retreat, the units are retreat. It

20 doesn't have a qualifier saying if there's fire from the Old Town, you can

21 return fire. It doesn't say that in that order to you, does it, sir?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you know, as a soldier, and you're still a soldier to this

24 day, you have to follow orders from your commanders?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7512

1 Q. Thank you. Sir, just to clarify the record; one of the lines

2 isn't clear. In this letter I just showed you, this order I just showed

3 you, there is no qualifier saying that you can fire upon the Old Town if

4 they're firing outside -- if they're firing from the Old Town. There is

5 nothing in this letter; isn't that correct?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. And finally, could the witness be shown, please, P16 -- P116. I'm

8 sorry. P116.

9 A. 1-1-6.

10 Q. Now, sir, looking at this document, you can see that it's an order

11 from the chief of the General Staff. And could you go to paragraph 3 of

12 the order. And do you see under order paragraph 3: "Any attack on

13 cultural property or other protected buildings, churches, historical

14 monuments, medical institutions and suchlike is strictly forbidden? Do

15 you see that. It says: "Except where the JNA units come under fire from

16 such buildings." Do you see that first sentence?

17 And then it lays out a plan: "In such cases, the responsible

18 officer shall, prior to opening fire, and in a suitable manner, warn the

19 opposite side to cease firing and leave the building."

20 And then it continues: "Immediately submit a comprehensive report

21 on any instance where the opening fire of protected buildings could not

22 have been avoided. Where possible, such cases should be documented,

23 photographs, video-recordings, witness statements, and suchlike."

24 Were you present at any time when contact was made to the

25 Croatians asking them to remove any weapons?

Page 7513

1 A. I think I'm a witness who can only describe what happened and what

2 I observed at the time. I can't give you any statements that could be

3 used as evidence or as documents. I was merely observing. I'm not sure

4 exactly how orders were issued and received. I'm only telling you about

5 what I understood. This here, every year, the army of Yugoslavia and

6 Crna Gora goes through this on purely humanitarian grounds, how soldiers

7 are treated, and that's what I did at every single point in time. I have

8 been familiarised on a number of different occasions with General

9 Strugar's order that fire was not to be opened on Dubrovnik, under any

10 circumstances. I was well aware of that.

11 Q. So you were well aware of General Strugar's order that fire was

12 not to be opened under any circumstances, and you had seen similar orders

13 to this which indicates the actions that have to be taken prior to opening

14 fire, and that's right from the command staff in Belgrade? You had seen

15 this before, this type of document before?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 A. Something you read.

19 Q. And you were not present at any time when any contact was made to

20 the Croatian side asking them to remove any weapons or we'll have to fire

21 on the Old Town? You weren't present for any contact of that kind?

22 A. I was in no position to be present. I had left my observation

23 post and I was totally cut off from everyone. The only way I could have

24 heard about this was by talking to someone, but I was simply in no

25 position to hear about it.

Page 7514

1 Q. And you never heard about anything like that either?

2 A. I think I've been clear enough on this one. I've been clear

3 enough. No.

4 Q. No. Thank you. Now, let's move on, sir.

5 You served as an artillery observer -- first, you served as a

6 battery commander of the 130-millimetre guns?

7 A. Allow me to clarify this. I had been re-subordinated to the

8 battalion commander, Captain Kovacevic, in order to provide fire support

9 for the taking of the Srdj elevation, as I said yesterday. Therefore, I

10 was no observer. I was there to provide firing support to take the Srdj

11 elevation. I was there to help correct our tactical position. That was

12 my role.

13 Q. And that role is an artillery observer. You served in the role of

14 an artillery observer on that morning.

15 A. No. My role was that of artillery support.

16 Q. And in that role of artillery support, your function, according to

17 what you said yesterday, was to assist in directing fire, if your guns

18 were going to be used?

19 A. My own fire. Yes, that's correct. I was directing the fire that

20 was coming from my weapon.

21 Q. And your job also would have been to locate targets, because you

22 were in a position where you could see what was happening?

23 A. That's clear enough. Targets for my fire were provided by the

24 officer that I was re-subordinated to, which was Captain Kovacevic. Those

25 were the only targets that I was authorised to hit.

Page 7515

1 Q. And you had to notify your guns as to coordinates or the targets?

2 A. Yes, that's correct.

3 Q. And if firing did in fact occur from your guns, it was your job to

4 observe the shells to see if they were coming close to the target? That

5 would have been your job if your guns would be firing?

6 A. Well, that much is certain. My pieces were opening fire. I was

7 exercising command over my guns and I was in control of that fire. That

8 was my job and that was my right. I was there. I was in the area where

9 the targets were. I was near the Srdj elevation.

10 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Page 16, line 5, the translation

11 was erroneous, because the witness actually said if my pieces had been

12 opening fire, not my pieces were opening fire.


14 Q. So if your pieces had been opening fire, it was your job to make

15 corrections, to make modifications, so you would -- so the fire would be

16 closer to the target, you'd be honing in on the target; isn't that

17 correct, sir?

18 A. That is very clear, sir.

19 Q. And the reason that you're making corrections is that you don't

20 want to be hitting objects other than the target. You don't want to be

21 hitting churches, you don't want to be hitting cultural property, you

22 don't want to be hitting civilian objects, you don't want to be hitting

23 your own troops. Those are the reasons that you make corrections so you

24 don't hit objects other than the target; isn't that correct?

25 A. The reasons for me to fire is to destroy a firing point. Of

Page 7516

1 course, I need to have all my coordinates calculated very accurately

2 because those were densely populated targets and this is a very delicate

3 case of firing. You had to prepare really well. You had to sight the

4 cannons well, train them well and dig them in well so as to avoid errors.

5 These were express orders from my superior command. I had to have good

6 insights as to what my target was, how close it was, and that's why I

7 always stayed in the area of my targets, near my targets, so that I could

8 make accurate corrections, and the reason that you gave is only one of the

9 reasons.

10 Q. But you agree with that reason. You don't want to hit undesirable

11 spots or objects; you want to hone in on the target?

12 A. Absolutely.

13 Q. Okay. And if you're shelling and you're missing the target, the

14 observer has to act. He can't just sit there. He has to make

15 modifications and changes if you're not hitting the target. He can't sit

16 back or she can't sit back and just ignore the situation.

17 A. You mean the observer who is in charge of the firing?

18 Q. Correct. The observer has to act; isn't that correct?

19 A. Certainly. The observer who is in charge of the firing must act.

20 Q. And you know that because of dispersion of shells, other damage

21 can be caused, you want to hit the target as quick as possible, or as soon

22 as possible, and neutralise it?

23 A. That's only logical.

24 Q. And you don't want to continue firing for six to ten hours because

25 you're going to cause a lot of damage. You want to hit your target and

Page 7517

1 end.

2 A. Yes, of course. But this is hypothetical. There are many ifs and

3 buts. What I did is what I did. I believe I stated it with sufficient

4 clarity. It should be clear by now.

5 In combat operations up to that point, I had targeted firing

6 points with a minimum use of shells. My gun was being used as a sniper.

7 I will use this opportunity to say the following: If I'd been given the

8 target that I had observed at the beginning of the war, none of this would

9 have happened. I spotted a target outside the town walls, left of the

10 Libertas Hotel, two mortars firing on Srdj and that caused a lot of damage

11 on Srdj.

12 Q. And you said realising how congested the situation is, you had to

13 be delicate, you said before in one of your answers, as part of your

14 planning. And so you understand, sir, that in a very congested area like

15 the Old Town, firing into that for a six- to ten-hour period, shelling

16 that is going to cause a lot of damage because of its congested, compact

17 nature?

18 A. That's logical.

19 Q. And then also, sir, you realise that if you shell a compact and

20 congested area for a period of six to ten hours, and if that area has very

21 old or ancient buildings, there's going to be extensive damage?

22 A. Certainly.

23 Q. And further, if there's a lot of people living there in this

24 congested area, living close together, if you shell for six to ten hours,

25 it's logical that people are going to get hurt?

Page 7518

1 A. Sir, you're telling me something that has nothing to do with me.

2 I understand that an impression must be made upon the Chamber, but I

3 really have nothing to do with this. I've said it a number of times

4 already that this is only logical. Obviously you have an explosive

5 falling on a densely populated area. Of course it's going to cause

6 damage. I think that much is clear.

7 Q. And it's going to cause injury to people, to civilians living

8 there?

9 A. Certainly.

10 Q. All right. Let's move to what you were doing on the 6th of

11 December. You said you arrived at Zarkovica at about 6.00 in the morning?

12 A. Yes. Yes, just before 6.00.

13 Q. And eventually you went to the observation post?

14 A. The moment I arrived at the observation post, I checked the

15 communication with my unit and reported to Captain Kovacevic, or rather, I

16 re-subordinated myself to Captain Kovacevic. He was at that point in time

17 my superior.

18 Q. Now, this observation post was located diagonally to the left,

19 behind the recoilless guns or the recoilless cannons or recoilless guns?

20 A. The recoilless gun was to my right. Between myself and the

21 recoilless gun there was a hunting lodge and then the gun. That's where

22 it was positioned.

23 Q. And you were diagonally behind the recoilless guns in the

24 observation post?

25 A. I'd say that I was by its side. It wasn't diagonal. It was side

Page 7519

1 by side. We were both looking the same way, towards Srdj, Dubrovnik, or

2 rather, Srdj. That was our area of observation.

3 Q. In the diagram that you drew yesterday, you had yourselves behind

4 the recoilless guns. Were you located behind the recoilless guns but to

5 the side? So they were to the right of you?

6 A. To the right. Well, perhaps the drawing was not too accurate, but

7 that's how it was. There was a small hunting lodge just next to me and

8 they were behind the lodge. There was a wall that had an opening. A

9 recoilless gun was positioned on the table. And the barrel was trained on

10 Srdj through that opening in the wall. In that wall we had three or four

11 of those. You have the wall, the small hunting lodge, and then my

12 position. It's like a sequence.

13 Q. How far were you behind the wall? How far were you set back from

14 the wall? How many metres?

15 A. The wall ended at the hunting lodge, and then you had a flight of

16 steps between my position and the lodge, and then a concrete clearing or

17 area, and then you have some sort of a shelter made of stone, behind which

18 I positioned the artillery, binoculars, a radio set, and I was there with

19 another soldier. There was the wall, there was the hunting lodge, then

20 the stairs, and then my position. If you mean how far the recoilless gun

21 was from my position, between 25 and 30 metres to the right from where I

22 was. But between myself and the recoilless gun there was the hunting

23 lodge. Therefore, optically it was not possible to see through.

24 Q. Now, were you in a tower? Were you inside a building? Where was

25 this observation post that you were using to look down in the Old Town?

Page 7520

1 Were you on ground level?

2 A. Yes. Yes, of course. I was outside. And I was out in the open,

3 totally. That's where I was wounded a month before that.

4 Q. So you were on the ground outside, approximately 20 -- 25 to 30

5 metres behind the edge of the wall at the edge of Zarkovica, so you were

6 25 to 30 feet back, outside, on the ground; that's correct?

7 A. Metres, not feet.

8 Q. Sorry about that. Metres. Now, are you aware that Zarkovica --

9 the distance from Zarkovica to the Old Town is approximately 23 to 2.500

10 metres?

11 A. Approximately.

12 Q. Now, you testified yesterday that without using binoculars you

13 were able to see an anti-aircraft gun and a mortar.

14 A. Certainly.

15 Q. And the mortar, you testified, was outside the Old Town, between

16 the wall and the water?

17 A. Outside the Old Town? The walls are a part of the Old Town for

18 me, just like anything else. When looking from where I was, there's the

19 gate, there's the walls. I have this photographic memory. I'm telling

20 you what I remember. This mortar was, at this one particular point and

21 then it was brought to this sort of plateau where the ships were tied, and

22 there was a pier there and that is where it was supposed to fire from.

23 But I did not notice it firing.

24 Q. You never saw it fire, this mortar?

25 A. No. I was focused on another point.

Page 7521

1 Q. And you also saw with your naked eye, in addition to seeing the

2 mortar, you saw the anti-aircraft gun. And was that --

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And was that at the entrance to the Old Town? It wasn't clear

5 yesterday where that gun was located. It seemed like you were saying the

6 entrance, at the entrance, or to the right of the entrance, or left.

7 A. If you look at the entrance into the Old Town, to the right, if I

8 can remember, there are some steps and there is a tower. He was up there.

9 And from up there, he could fire. I think it's less than 2.000 metres. I

10 don't know why I think it's less. But he was supposed to fire at Bosanka

11 from there, or rather, at Srdj. From that tower. That was his sector.

12 And that is the kind of opening he had. So he was on this tower near the

13 entrance into the Old Town.

14 Q. And with the naked eye, you testified, without binoculars, you

15 were able to see both of these weapons?

16 A. Of course.

17 MR. WEINER: With the Court's permission, may the witness be shown

18 portions of video P66?


20 MR. WEINER: Could he be shown a section from 21 minutes and 28

21 seconds to 21 minutes and 30 seconds, and stop at 30 seconds, please.

22 [Videotape played]

23 MR. WEINER: Stop there.

24 Q. Sir, do you recognise that picture, Zarkovica, the Old Town being

25 seen from Zarkovica?

Page 7522

1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm sorry, but --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


4 Q. And that's the view, sir, from the recoilless guns at Zarkovica,

5 right from the wall at the edge, looking down on the Old Town harbour?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you can see the harbour from that photograph, but you can't

8 see it very clearly, can you, sir?

9 A. Yes. It's not a very good picture.

10 Q. And you can't see the boats, or you can't see any boats clearly

11 from that photograph, from that view?

12 A. You can't see Stradun, you can't see the house. It's a very bad

13 picture.

14 Q. That view, from that view, you can't see any people?

15 A. I can't even see the hand of the observer properly, the one right

16 in front. It's simply a bad picture. You can't even see Srdj, which was

17 readily discernible then.

18 Q. And from that view of almost two and a half kilometres away, you

19 can't see anything clearly?

20 A. I think that, first and foremost, this photograph is a very bad

21 photograph. I could see much better from that point than what you can see

22 in this photograph. Over here, you cannot even see the hand clearly, or

23 anything else in the background. This is not proper evidence. From there

24 you can see perfectly Babin Kuk, you could see the tennis courts. I used

25 binoculars, artillery binoculars too. You could see buildings, Stradun,

Page 7523

1 the streets off Stradun. You could see perfectly the boats in the

2 harbour. You could see how many of them were. Here you cannot see where

3 the town begins and ends. This is simply a bad photograph.

4 Q. Let's take another picture, sir. Let's move to 13 minutes to 13

5 minutes and 15 seconds.

6 A. The resolution of this photograph is very poor. That's it.

7 [Videotape played]

8 MR. WEINER: 13 minutes to 13 minutes and 15 seconds.

9 [Videotape played]

10 MR. WEINER: Could you stop here.

11 Q. Sir, here is another view. You recognise that's a recoilless

12 cannon on top of Zarkovica and it's overlooking the Old Town, isn't it?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And again, you can't see anything clearly in the harbour that's

15 almost two and a half kilometres away, can you, sir?

16 A. This is a camera view. The resolution is so poor that these

17 little squares -- I mean, even a technically illiterate person would know

18 what this is all about. This cannot be used as evidence. You cannot see

19 anything here. But sir, I saw the things I told you about very well, very

20 clearly.

21 Q. Sir, this camera --

22 A. It doesn't mean anything.

23 Q. This camera has a zoom lens. Let's watch it zoom in and then

24 we'll see what you can see.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 7524

1 MR. WEINER: Stop there, please.

2 Q. Now, you've zoomed in with a zoom lens. Can you now see the

3 harbour clearly?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you see each of the boats clearly?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Can you determine the size of the boats?

8 A. Of course. At that moment, what I saw, I saw. Of course you can

9 see whether they are small fishing boats, whether they're yachts, bigger

10 ones were here.

11 Q. [Previous translation continues]... the boats? No, you can't.

12 Can you --

13 A. I did not say I couldn't. At this moment, of course I cannot. I

14 can count them.

15 Q. With a zoom lens, you can now, using a zoom lens, you can now

16 count them. Can you see any people? Can you even tell if there's any

17 people there?

18 A. No. I cannot make any claims to that effect.

19 Q. Can you identify any of the streets in the Old Town from there,

20 other than the Stradun?

21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is inappropriate

22 cross-examination. This material, which is of such poor quality that

23 practically nothing can be discerned, I think that it is wrong to pursue

24 this line of questioning.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

Page 7525

1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] The witness said what he had to

2 say, and if there is a clear picture, show it to the witness. But if

3 there is a computer picture only, and if -- and the resolution is much

4 poorer and it comes from TV Montenegro, but then if they do have proper TV

5 footage, then perhaps the witness can be shown that. Otherwise, all of

6 this just confuses the witness, so it is improper.

7 Thank you, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber can assess those matters when it comes

9 to weigh the effect of the cross-examination.

10 Carry on, Mr. Weiner.

11 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

12 Q. Sir, you can't discern the various streets and buildings in the

13 Old Town, can you, in that photograph, from that view?

14 A. As the Defence lawyer said, this is camera footage. What I saw, I

15 see with my own eyes. This doesn't mean a thing. I can only say with

16 reliability if I were to be standing on Zarkovica now, whether I can see

17 the streets or not or whether I can count and see the boats or not. This

18 is very poor resolution, so why are you asking me about these pictures?

19 This is not the view I had. This is not how I could see on that day. I

20 did not make my conclusions through this camera. I base my conclusions on

21 my own eyesight, which is much better, and also the angle of the sun was

22 different. This was 10.00 or 11.00 or perhaps even later. The basis of

23 this I cannot --

24 Q. You're saying that your eyesight is better than the zoom lens on

25 that camera?

Page 7526

1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I object. Please.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic, the cross-examination is proper. We

3 are conscious of the matters you are putting and we can weigh it.


5 Q. Sir, the question is: Are you saying that your eyesight is better

6 than the zoom lens on that camera?

7 A. I think I was quite clear. Yes. And I was 12 or 13 years

8 younger, at that.

9 Q. And you were also 25 to 30 metres behind the recoilless cannons,

10 where those pictures are being taken from.

11 Let's move on for 15 more seconds.

12 A. I was not behind. I was not behind. Please take that into

13 account.

14 [Videotape played]

15 MR. WEINER: Stop again.

16 Q. Again, sir, from that distance, can you see any people, and can

17 you determine any of the streets went within the Old Town?

18 A. I think I've already given you an answer.

19 Q. My question is: Can you see any people or can you determine or

20 see any streets within the Old Town?

21 A. From the position where I viewed this, I could see that. This

22 position shows the ramparts. You cannot even see Stradun. You cannot see

23 the entrance into town. You cannot see the positions on the left of the

24 mortar and on the right of the anti-aircraft tank.

25 MR. WEINER: Could you continue.

Page 7527

1 A. I could see far more clearly than what you can see in this

2 photograph.

3 Q. And at this position, sir, can you discern any of the streets

4 within the Old Town?

5 A. Of course, not a thing can be seen in this picture. Buildings

6 cannot be seen, let alone streets.

7 Q. And that, sir, is because Zarkovica is approximately two and a

8 half kilometres from the Old Town harbour; isn't that correct? That's why

9 you can't see it?

10 A. If that's what you say. You cannot see through the lens of this

11 camera, but I saw it clearly.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 A. I think that everybody else said what I said too, that I saw what

14 I saw clearly.

15 Q. All right, sir. Let us continue. You said you saw a mortar and

16 an anti-aircraft gun with the naked eye and that they were not firing;

17 isn't that correct?

18 A. I did not observe any firing.

19 Q. And, sir, you said that the -- that these were out in the open,

20 they were clearly visible; isn't that correct?

21 A. Of course.

22 Q. And how long had the mortar been there? You said it was moved

23 from one place to another place and then you don't know where it got moved

24 to. How long had it been there, sir?

25 A. Let me explain. They did not move it from one place to another.

Page 7528

1 They would put it into a shelter and then they will take it out from the

2 place where they wanted it to fire. It was all planned. Obviously, for

3 that mortar, they made a sector of activity. And it had only one --

4 Q. Sir, you can't answer for what their plans were. My question to

5 you is: How long was that mortar visible? That's all. Five minutes, ten

6 minutes, four minutes, fifteen minutes?

7 A. The moment when it was noticed, fire was opened at it, as far as I

8 can remember. But my priority was - I'm telling you this yet again - the

9 place that Captain Nesic showed me through binoculars, and that was the

10 mortars next to Libertas. That's why I asked for fire and that's why I

11 spoke to my command a few times and I had orders issued. This was within

12 their range and I did not really pay attention.

13 Q. Okay. So you don't know how long it had been there. Can you

14 estimate any amount of time - five minutes, ten minutes - that you had

15 seen it exposed there?

16 A. I'm telling you again: This was not the focus of my attention.

17 But it was not usable any longer after that, so it wasn't there. This

18 firing point could have been eliminated, and it was eliminated. I mean,

19 well, eliminated. It simply was not active.

20 Q. You saw this mortar, and it was --

21 A. And again -- yes. I've already said that.

22 Q. And it was exposed. You saw it with the open eye. It was in the

23 clear, this mortar. Was the crew also standing there in the clear,

24 exposed?

25 A. Of course they pushed it out there.

Page 7529

1 Q. Could you see them standing by it, a group of men?

2 A. There was a largish group near the entrance into the Old Town.

3 All right. That doesn't matter now. But at any rate, they had to be

4 there. There had to be personnel around the mortar, and there were

5 personnel.

6 Q. You said there had to be and there were but you just didn't see

7 them, or you don't recall if you saw them?

8 A. I mean, it's logical. If the mortar is there, they had to push it

9 out there. I was not out there to establish whether there was someone

10 there or whether there was not anyone there. If the mortar is there, of

11 course it had to be pulled out. At that moment -- or rather, let's not

12 get too confused. It was pulled out of this particular point. That's the

13 only place from where they could get it. This was in the morning, around

14 8.00 in the morning. All these objectives that I talked about were

15 noticed. After that, I focused on my own objective. After that, I no

16 longer paid attention to this. I just know that fire was opened, and I

17 know that there was heavy smoke there, and as far as I know, after that,

18 this was not a priority either for Captain Kovacevic or the others.

19 Libertas was their priority. So that objective was not active.

20 Q. And in addition, according to your testimony, to the mortar that

21 was open and exposed, there was also an anti-aircraft gun that was

22 visible, open, and exposed; isn't that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And when I say "exposed," you were looking down upon this right

25 from Zarkovica, on these weapons?

Page 7530

1 A. Of course, yes. Well, that's what I'm telling you. That's the

2 only thing I'm telling you, what I saw.

3 Q. So the Croatians placed two weapons in open view of their enemy,

4 or their opposing army. That's what you're trying to say, sir?

5 A. It was not the way you put it so that it would be in open view of

6 their enemy. They had to put it out there so that it could fire. They

7 could not shoot from a room. And it simply had to be there. It had to

8 fire from out in the open. It could not fire from the point where it was

9 originally. They did not put it out there so that it would be in the open

10 view of their enemy. No.

11 Q. So the Croatians put two weapons within open view of you and the

12 other soldiers on Zarkovica, within the view of the JNA troops?

13 A. Two, and the two next to Libertas, that makes four, and that's

14 what I saw.

15 Q. We're not talking about Libertas right now, which is a distance

16 away. We're talking about those two weapons which you claim to have seen.

17 Those were placed, according to your testimony, right out in the open,

18 directly in front of the opposing army. That's your testimony.

19 A. Yes. In front of our troops, they were there at 8.00 in the

20 morning. Later on, I heard from my colleagues that the cannon had been

21 active. I did not hear about the mortar.

22 Q. And sir, were you aware that the Old Town had been shelled in

23 October of 1991?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Were you aware that the Old Town had been shelled in November of

Page 7531

1 1991?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Were you aware that the Old Town harbour had been shelled in

4 November of 1991?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Were you aware that the boats in the Old Town harbour and the

7 walls that are adjacent to the harbour had been shelled in November of

8 1991?

9 A. No. As far as I can remember, all of that happened in December.

10 Q. And were you aware that Maljutkas or wire-guided missiles struck

11 the harbour area, the boats and the walls of the Old Town in November of

12 1991?

13 A. No.

14 Q. But you're saying that the Croats placed two weapons in an area,

15 which two weapons exposed to everyone in an area that had previously been

16 shelled?

17 A. Obviously.

18 Q. Now, you keep on talking about your role. While you were up

19 there, it was your job to observe and direct your weapons if they had in

20 fact fired.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you indicated that your weapons were quite precise. That's

23 what you testified to yesterday, as to the --

24 A. Absolutely.

25 Q. And you know that some weapons are more precise than others.

Page 7532

1 A. Of course. Of course. It depends on the length of the barrel,

2 the weight of the shell, the combination of the barrel and the

3 emplacement.

4 Q. And you're aware that there are both direct and indirect-fire

5 weapons, direct --

6 A. Yes. Direct and indirect. Yes. Yes.

7 Q. And you're also aware, sir, that there were various weapons

8 available to the JNA on Zarkovica and elsewhere on the morning of

9 December 6, 1991; isn't that correct?

10 A. Yes, that's right. But what do you mean when you're referring to

11 difference, when you're saying "various"?

12 Q. Well, within the 2nd Operational Group, they had different kinds

13 of weapons, such as Maljutka missiles. You knew that there were Maljutka

14 missiles up on Zarkovica?

15 A. Yes. Yes, and I said that.

16 Q. You knew that there were recoilless cannons up on Zarkovica?

17 A. Yes. Yes. And I even drew that.

18 Q. Correct. And you thought that there might have been a Zolja, what

19 you call a Zolja or a Zolja, some Zoljas up on Zarkovica?

20 A. A Zolja cannot be used at such distances. It's useless. A

21 Zolja's range is up to 400 metres.

22 Q. And you're also aware that there were tanks also used in the

23 action?

24 A. Yes, in companies.

25 Q. On both sides of Srdj?

Page 7533

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And you're also aware that there were 120-millimetre mortars used

3 and available?

4 A. I did not see them in the area of Zarkovica and Brgat.

5 Q. Not Zarkovica, but elsewhere the JNA had those available?

6 A. Well, of course. It had 130-millimetre guns and 122-millimetre

7 guns and 105-millimetre guns. The 9th VPS had all of that. Now, what the

8 others had, I don't really know.

9 Q. Now, there were also sniper rifles available. Were you aware of

10 that?

11 A. These are infantry weapons that played no role whatsoever on the

12 6th of December.

13 Q. But they were available?

14 A. Of course.

15 Q. Now, sir, if you can see a target and you're within range of a

16 target, you can neutralise it?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And if something is exposed, it's even easier to neutralise with a

19 direct-fire weapon, if an object is exposed, a military target is exposed,

20 as opposed to one that's hidden; it's much easier to neutralise?

21 A. I'm sorry. Could the interpreters please repeat this. The first

22 sentence. I did not understand your first sentence. If something is

23 exposed, and could they please continue now.

24 Q. If a target is exposed, is in the open, it's much easier --

25 A. All right. All right. Yes. I understand now.

Page 7534

1 Q. And the anti-aircraft gun was never destroyed, isn't that correct?

2 A. Destroyed? I don't know. I just know that later on -- actually,

3 it was hit by a Maljutka and I think it was destroyed, neutralised. It

4 was hit by a Maljutka, and I think that it was destroyed. I saw smoke

5 later, so it was a Maljutka that had hit it.

6 Q. But you're not certain. You think; you're not certain.

7 A. Well, I mean, if I were on the very spot, that is the only way I

8 could have known whether it was eliminated or not. I just know that the

9 mortar was no longer active and it was no longer the object of my

10 observation. It was not active afterwards.

11 Q. And the mortar was never destroyed?

12 A. The place was hit where it was, but it was neutralised. It wasn't

13 active after that. And the right effect was achieved. You don't have to

14 destroy something to attain your goals and finish firing at your target.

15 The main thing was that it wasn't active afterwards. It wasn't

16 operational afterwards.

17 Q. Sir, the fact that it wasn't destroyed and then you're not certain

18 that the anti-aircraft gun was destroyed, and these weapons had been in

19 the open, isn't that because they never existed? Isn't that why they

20 weren't destroyed?

21 A. No, that's not how it was. Hardly. Those weapons did exist

22 there. That is absolutely certain. They would cover with fire and then

23 after that the cannon was active, judging by what my colleagues told me,

24 and I think that the mortar wasn't active at all. The mortar wasn't

25 active at all. And that's where all the activity ceased, for those

Page 7535

1 artillery pieces of the 3rd Battalion.

2 Q. But you, with the naked eye, as you saw them previously, never saw

3 them destroyed; correct?

4 A. I've already said: They weren't operational after that. They

5 weren't active. There were no mortars there any more. They were

6 neutralised. That's what that means.

7 Q. Assuming they ever existed to begin with.

8 A. That's what you said.

9 Q. Now, we saw pictures of Zarkovica. As you know, Zarkovica

10 overlooks the general area of the Old Town and the area --

11 A. The Old Town and Babin Kuk.

12 Q. And it's an unobstructed view. There's nothing in the way.

13 There's nothing blocking your view.

14 A. As we saw it on the photograph.

15 Q. And you can see the walls of the Old Town and you can see the

16 Old Town in the distance, you can see it somewhat generally with the naked

17 eye, but you could also see it clearer with binoculars and sighting

18 devices?

19 A. Yes, you can. Just a moment. I'm not getting the text, the

20 LiveNote, up on my screen.

21 Q. Now, you looked down on the Old Town during the day on several

22 occasions? From Zarkovica, you looked down on the Old Town on several

23 occasions?

24 A. Well, it was spread out in front of me.

25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, an observation.

Page 7536

1 Perhaps an irrelevant one, but I would nonetheless like to state it, with

2 respect to what it says on page 36, line 16 and 17. The witness does not

3 mention any LiveNote or anything like that. I don't know where that comes

4 from.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't got a picture of the text,

6 the translation, again.


8 Q. Do you have the translation of the transcript in front of you now

9 on the monitor?

10 A. Yes. It's working now.

11 Q. Okay. Now, how long were you in Zarkovica during that day, sir?

12 You were there just before 6.00. Until what time?

13 A. Until before dark. 4.00, half past 4.00, perhaps.

14 Q. And during the day, while you're on the Old Town, did you see

15 smoke rising from the town, large amounts of smoke?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you see clouds of smoke over the Old Town?

18 A. I said I did, yes.

19 Q. And did you see thick, black smoke coming from the boats rising

20 above the harbour?

21 A. Yes, I did. That was what was targeted. The mortar, with the

22 Maljutka.

23 Q. Did you see thick, black smoke rising above the boats?

24 A. I did see thick, black smoke. Yes, I did.

25 Q. And all that smoke hovering over the Old Town, that affected the

Page 7537

1 visibility that you had into the Old Town streets?

2 A. Yes. And that was the effect of the mortar at the spot where it

3 was supposed that the observed one was located. So the mortar over the

4 roofs of the houses, and that smoke came from that, around the streets

5 where the mortar was located.

6 Q. Are you saying the smoke in the Old Town came from these flashes

7 which you believe to be a mortar? All the smoke in the Old Town came from

8 that mortar that you believe to have been in the Old Town? Is that what

9 you're saying? The clouds of smoke?

10 A. I don't think you understood me correctly. The smoke was the

11 result of the falling of shells, mortar shells.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 A. The fall of shells. And the flashes occurred before that. Before

14 that, you had the flashes of light from the firing of the shells.

15 Q. Now, could you see buildings burning in the Old Town?

16 A. Well, I saw smoke coming from the roofs, so the smoke was caused

17 by the flames. I didn't see an open flame, but quite obviously the roofs

18 had been set fire to, because there was smoke coming out of them.

19 Q. Could you see the boats burning?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Could you see flames coming from the boats?

22 A. Well, of course. Where there's smoke, there's fire. You couldn't

23 have had smoke coming out of something cold.

24 Q. Could you see shells striking and then smoke rising after a shell,

25 a mortar shell, struck an area?

Page 7538

1 A. I don't think I saw the falling of the shells on the boats in the

2 small harbour where these two targets were observed, so that was the

3 result of the Maljutka, whereas the small street from where we saw,

4 observed the firing of the mortar, they hit the roofs and of course the

5 roofs were destroyed. It was set fire to. And the result of all that was

6 the smoke coming out.

7 Q. Did you use your binoculars or the sighting equipment as you

8 looked at the Old Town during the shelling?

9 A. Of course.

10 Q. And using your binoculars, could you see the holes in the roofs?

11 A. Yes. They weren't holes in the roofs. It was the whole roof

12 falling in. Even if they were new roofs, they would have been destroyed.

13 They weren't holes; they were whole chunks of roofs.

14 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, would you like me to take a break at

15 this time or ...

16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, if that's a convenient point. We will adjourn

17 until 10 to.

18 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

19 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Weiner.

21 MR. WEINER: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Good morning again, Mr. Pepic.

23 A. [In English] Good morning.

24 Q. By the way, you're still a member of the military, the Yugoslav

25 national army?

Page 7539

1 A. [Interpretation] Yes, as I said at the beginning of my testimony.

2 Q. And your current rank is major, did you say? I'm sorry, what was

3 your current rank? No. It was captain?

4 A. Lieutenant colonel. Captain of the frigate, in naval terms. If

5 you compare that to the army, the rank would be lieutenant colonel of the

6 infantry.

7 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir.

8 Now, as we left off, you had indicated that whole chunks of roofs

9 had caved in or collapsed, and buildings in the Old Town; isn't that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes, parts of roofs. Because they were small surface areas, small

12 roofs, four corners. So yes.

13 Q. And you could see --

14 A. Caved in. That would be exactly it.

15 Q. And you could see that with the binoculars. You could see these

16 caved-in roofs?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And could you also see the -- in the Stradun or in the streets of

19 the Old Town roofs tiles, debris, clutter along the streets? Could you

20 see that?

21 A. Correct.

22 Q. And you could see damage --

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you could see damaged buildings?

25 A. Yes. Principally roofs, as I have said.

Page 7540

1 Q. Okay. And you could see that some of the houses of worship were

2 damaged?

3 A. I didn't know specifically -- well, yes. Churches. I had heard

4 that the Orthodox Church had been destroyed, which is the other side of

5 Stradun. I heard that that had been set fire to.

6 Q. And could you see people in the streets at various times running

7 through the streets?

8 A. I didn't see people at any time, with the naked eye or with

9 binoculars either. And as far as I heard, at about 6.00, the alarm was

10 sounded. A general alert was sounded. I didn't hear that myself, but

11 that's what people told me, for an air strike, air danger, and people took

12 to the shelters, having heard the alarm sound. So apart from the movement

13 of these artillery pieces and the crews -- in Lokrum, I didn't see people

14 at all.

15 Q. So you never saw any dead bodies in the street or any injured

16 persons lying in the street. You were never able to see it during the

17 times that you watched or the times that you observed the Old Town?

18 A. On the 6th, no.

19 Q. Now, sir, when it became dark or you left just as it was becoming

20 dark, could you see the burning buildings in the Old Town?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Could you see the flames rising above the buildings?

23 A. Well, as I said, there's no smoke without fire. The roof

24 constructions were on fire, and so was the material underneath. And there

25 was debris, scattered stones, tiles in the streets.

Page 7541

1 Q. And you could see the smoke covering much of the Old Town at that

2 point, darkness and the smoke covering much of the Old Town?

3 A. It wasn't dark. There wasn't darkness. It was dark when I left

4 the observation post, as I said, 4.00, half past 4.00. When it really got

5 dark was round a quarter to 5.00. So as it was getting dark, I wasn't --

6 I couldn't see that, so I couldn't compare.

7 Q. And prior to December 6th, when the JNA shelled the Old Town, you

8 had never seen it in such condition; fires, debris in the streets, smoke

9 above the -- clouds of smoke above the town? You had never seen the Old

10 Town in that condition prior to December 6, 1991?

11 A. I have no knowledge of the fact that the Old Town was shelled.

12 Q. You had no knowledge that the Old Town --

13 A. And I didn't see it at all. That is quite certain. I didn't see

14 anything.

15 Q. You did not see the shelling of the Old Town on December 6th,

16 1991? We're talking about December 6th.

17 A. Well, yes, I did see. Of course.

18 Q. Prior to December 6th, had you ever seen the Old Town in that type

19 of condition: Houses burning, roofs collapsed, buildings damaged,

20 churches damaged, debris in the streets? Had you ever seen the Old Town

21 in that condition prior to December 6, 1991?

22 A. I was quite resolute in saying that I did not see that, nor do I

23 have any information about that, before the 6th of December. On the 6th

24 of December, I saw what I described to you.

25 Q. And that's what I'm saying --

Page 7542

1 A. The consequences.

2 Q. Prior to December 6th, you had never seen the Old Town in that

3 condition? No.

4 A. No.

5 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, I'd like to show you portions of a

6 videotape, again, P66, with the Court's approval. Just portions of a

7 videotape relating to December 6th. Could we go to 31 minutes and 15

8 seconds, please.

9 [Videotape played]

10 MR. WEINER: Stop.

11 Q. Sir, do you recognise the photograph in front of you as being the

12 Old Town of Dubrovnik?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you can see at that time that there's already a cloud of smoke

15 over much of the Old Town; isn't that correct?

16 A. I've already described all this. I described having seen this

17 previously.

18 Q. And that's what it looked like. 7.47 in the morning, there was

19 already a cloud of smoke over the Old Town; isn't that correct, sir?

20 A. 7.45 in the morning, you say? No.

21 Q. 7.47 in the morning. Would you like me to take it back a few

22 seconds? Would you like to see the tape again? All I'm saying: Is that

23 consistent with your view with binoculars at approximately 7.47 in the

24 morning?

25 A. I saw this firing, but as far as I know, that started after about

Page 7543

1 half past 8.00, 9.00. What we see on the picture, I saw that afterwards,

2 but not before 8.00. And I remember exactly, because at 800 hours, I

3 observed the targets we're talking about, although all this activity

4 started earlier on, at around 6.00 a.m.

5 Q. Could you take it back to 31 minutes and 15 seconds, please.

6 Thank you.

7 [Videotape played]

8 MR. WEINER: Stop right there.

9 Q. You can see the smoke rising over the Old Town. What time does it

10 indicate on December 12th -- I'm sorry, December 6th, 1991? 7.47 a.m.?

11 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic, no point of objection can be made at

13 the present. I'm getting concerned at the extent to which your objections

14 tend to put words in the witness's mouth. That's why I'm being --

15 restraining you.

16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can present my

17 objection even if the witness leaves the courtroom. I don't know how to

18 proceed. But I really do have an objection with respect to the contents

19 this footage. If -- well, if you won't allow me, I won't present it. But

20 I have a relevant objection, so I don't know how to proceed.

21 JUDGE PARKER: It is an exhibit that is before us.

22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] The problem is -- yes, of course,

23 that is right, Your Honour. However, there's nothing tying the time to

24 the footage itself as evidence. That is the basis for my objection. Of

25 course, the footage is there as evidence, but the time and how it is

Page 7544

1 interconnected.

2 JUDGE PARKER: That issue is being explored at the present time

3 with the witness. Thank you.


5 Q. Sir, do you see the time listed on that video, 7.47 in the

6 morning?

7 A. Yes. The time is listed. It's printed out.

8 Q. And at that time, you already see smoke over the Old Town and

9 shells have hit the Old Town, isn't that correct, according to this video

10 and the time listed therein?

11 A. Let me tell you chronologically. I'm quite sure that it happened

12 at 8.00. At 8.00, I was shown the target at Lokrum, from where the

13 shooting came from, around the Libertas Hotel. I asked to be allowed to

14 open fire. I was not allowed to do so. So that was just after 8.00, as I

15 said.

16 Q. Okay. You've made that statement.

17 A. The same thing that you can see on the footage here, that

18 situation.

19 Q. But you do note, sir, that it indicates prior to 8.00 the Old Town

20 has already been shelled and there is smoke rising from the buildings in

21 the Old Town, prior to 8.00? Isn't that correct? Isn't that what's on

22 the video?

23 A. If it says 7.47, it doesn't mean that it's true.

24 Q. All I'm saying is: Isn't that what's on the video? If it is,

25 yes; if it isn't, say no.

Page 7545

1 A. That's what you can see, but I state again: At 8.00, or that is

2 to say, 13 minutes after this situation, the firing still hadn't started.

3 It started after 8.00.

4 Q. All right. Let's continue with the video. If you watch closely.

5 [Videotape played]


7 Q. Sir, you just saw the times, 9.34 in the morning and 9.39, and at

8 those points you can see clouds of smoke over the Old Town; isn't that

9 correct?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. And obviously, that's going to affect your visibility from

12 Zarkovica as you look towards the Old Town, isn't that correct, even using

13 binoculars?

14 A. That's quite clear, yes.

15 MR. WEINER: Can we continue.

16 [Videotape played]


18 Q. And when you talked about boats on fire in the harbour and smoke

19 coming up from those boats, that's consistent with your testimony, isn't

20 it, sir, the boats burning?

21 A. Obviously.

22 Q. You can see that black smoke rising up, which again affects your

23 visibility, the black smoke, that thick, black smoke from the boats?

24 A. Absolutely correct.

25 MR. WEINER: Could we continue.

Page 7546

1 [Videotape played]


3 Q. Now, if we go back: Did you see the missile hit right over the

4 turret and then cause a puff of smoke? Let's go back to 31:50. You watch

5 right over the turret. Do you see the flash too? Did you see the flash

6 and then the puff of smoke?

7 A. I see the smoke, yes. Yes.

8 Q. Did you see the flash before that?

9 A. Could you repeat that, please. Show it again.

10 [Videotape played]


12 Q. If you watch right over that turret.

13 A. Yes. I've just seen it. Yes.

14 Q. And that was at approximately 31:51. Now, could we move to 32:13.

15 [Videotape played]

16 MR. WEINER: Stop right there.

17 Q. And you can see what the Old Town looks like at 12.44 p.m. Is

18 that consistent with your memory of what it looks like, clouds of smoke

19 over the Old Town?

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 Q. And at that point, it's very poor visibility for an observer, even

22 with binoculars and sighting equipment?

23 A. Certainly.

24 MR. WEINER: If we continue.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 7547


2 Q. And as we continue in the afternoon, black smoke covers most of

3 the sky, or much of the sky over the Old Town; isn't that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And if we move to 33:05, please.

6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could my learned

7 friend tell me the date of this last footage that we just saw. I don't

8 want to suggest or lead. Could you tell us that last still that was

9 shown, what date is that?

10 MR. WEINER: All this footage together is December 6th.

11 Could you continue.

12 [Videotape played]


14 Q. And sir, you can see at 4.33 in the afternoon, there's still

15 clouds of smoke over the Old Town, and that's approximately the time you

16 were leaving; isn't that correct?

17 A. Yes. Yes.

18 Q. And finally, 33:20 to 33:28, please.

19 [Videotape played]

20 MR. WEINER: To 38, please.

21 [Videotape played]


23 Q. And when you said you could see the Old Town in flames just when

24 nightfall was beginning, or it was at dusk, that's what it looked like?

25 You could see flames and smoke coming from the houses in the Old Town?

Page 7548

1 A. Exactly like that, yes.

2 Q. And it was an ugly scene, to say the least?

3 A. A terrible scene.

4 Q. Thank you. No more video is necessary at this time.

5 I just have a question as to views of certain areas. If the

6 witness could be shown P11 just for a quick moment.

7 Sir, you indicated that you had been to the Old Town on several

8 occasions. Do you see those hotels overlooking the Adriatic, the

9 Argentina, I think the Excelsior, those hotels overlooking? Are you

10 familiar with those? Do you recall those from your trips and visits to

11 the Old Town?

12 A. Yes. The Belvedere is the first one, the Argentina Hotel was to

13 the left. Just up the road, I've never been to the new hotels at

14 Babin Kuk. I usually drove straight to the Old Town. But yes, I am

15 familiar with the Argentina and Belvedere hotels. I know about the hotel

16 district at Babin Kuk. I know about the Libertas Hotel. I don't know

17 about this stretch here, though.

18 Q. Okay. And you knew that those hotels had either, if you want to

19 call them cafes or bars, and different patio-type areas overlooking the

20 water, as well as the rooms had balconies overlooking the water? At the

21 Argentina. Let's start off with that one.

22 A. Well, the Argentina, if that's the one I think it is, it was a bit

23 recessed back from the sea and it had a view on Zarkovica, but it had a

24 view on the sea, right there also. It was just off the road, on a slope,

25 facing the sea.

Page 7549

1 Q. And from that Argentina Hotel you could also see the Old Town?

2 A. Certainly.

3 Q. Thank you. No further need of the map. Thank you.

4 Just one other quick question before we continue. What was your

5 rank in December of 1991, on December 6th?

6 A. I was a captain back then.

7 Q. Thank you. Now, you testified yesterday about seeing flashes, and

8 you identified on a diagram this morning two streets. You weren't sure

9 which one, but two streets that you had seen flashes. Isn't that correct?

10 A. Yes. I didn't see on two streets. It was either one or the

11 other. But that's only an assumption that I have made. Because from my

12 position, from which I was looking, as I said yesterday, my line of

13 observation was parallel to the Stradun. Those streets, in relation to

14 where I was, you know, I couldn't keep a sense of distance how far the

15 streets were from one another. And in relation to the Stradun, whether it

16 was in the nearer half or in the further half.

17 Q. But what you said was you saw some of -- you saw these flashes.

18 And did you see them --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. -- Just in the morning or throughout the day or in different

21 periods of the day, once an hour? When did you see them, and how often?

22 A. I saw it in the morning. The firing was observed in the morning,

23 and then later on, you have seen for yourselves, after all, when the

24 mortar started firing on them, it was very difficult to observe that.

25 They targeted the spots where it should have been. But let me make this

Page 7550

1 clear. The part that you could see from Strincjera is a section that I

2 couldn't see from where I was, whether there was anything there. I'm only

3 telling you about what I saw, as to any firing by the Croatian side.

4 Q. That's all we want to deal with, is what you saw. So you saw some

5 flashing on that street off the Stradun. When you saw the flashing, did

6 you see it reflecting off the top of a building? Because you said it

7 was -- whatever the object was, it was between two buildings. So unless

8 you're Superman, you can't see through the buildings. Did you see

9 flashing way up along the top of the building?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, you're aware, sir, that --

12 A. Yes. The flash that I saw was from the bottom up, and then it was

13 moving, the place which I assume was not exposed, well, I didn't really

14 have a view. It was recessed behind the corner, the right-hand corner,

15 and looking at the opposite side, at the left corner, that's where I saw

16 the flash and it was moving up.

17 Q. So you could just see the flash along -- if there are two

18 buildings, it would be the back building along the top of the back

19 building, the rear building?

20 A. Yes. Yes.

21 Q. Now, from where you were on Zarkovica, from the rooftop down, how

22 much of the building could you see? Are we talking about a metre, maybe a

23 metre and a half? Because there is a building in front and you could see

24 the rear building. So what would you say that you could see from the top

25 of Zarkovica? A metre, a metre and a half down, two metres?

Page 7551

1 A. From the roof down, I really can't say. I think all the buildings

2 were more or less the same height, but I don't think that's relevant. In

3 terms of what I saw, it was this ratio between the buildings. It was

4 sideways.

5 It wasn't about the height of the buildings; it was about the

6 angle at which they were facing one another. I saw the flash from here.

7 It was a bit protruded because my angle of vision was a bit askew, in a

8 manner of speaking, and I was watching Stradun from this sort of angle,

9 and that was the angle from which I saw these two buildings.

10 I think all the buildings along the Stradun were more or less the

11 same height. I didn't notice any major discrepancies in terms of height,

12 or at least not that I can think of right now.

13 Q. But the flashing that you saw was high -- you said at the top of

14 the building. So are you saying you saw a flash between one metre from

15 the roof down one metre, or maybe two metres down from the top of the

16 roof?

17 A. No.

18 Q. [Previous translation continues]... saw it along the top or did

19 you see it along the side. Do you want to change your testimony and say

20 you now saw the flashing on the side? Yesterday you said you saw it along

21 the top.

22 A. No, I didn't say that yesterday. I was very resolute in what I

23 said. I saw a flash between the buildings, and it was flaring up from the

24 bottom up, moving up.

25 Q. But sir, if there was a building between the building that you

Page 7552

1 were looking at, you couldn't see --

2 A. Of course it caught the top of the building too.

3 Q. What could you see? Where did you see the flash? Did you see it

4 along the top or did you see it somewhere else?

5 A. As I said, I saw it at the bottom of the building. It was from

6 the level of the Stradun, the street. This piece of equipment was at the

7 bottom, and that's where the flame was coming from and it was spreading up

8 and I saw the building further down, in a manner of speaking. I can't say

9 if it was one metre or a metre and a half away from there, but it was on

10 that side, in that particular shadow, that I saw the flame spreading

11 upwards.

12 You showed me the shell fall and you saw how the flame was

13 spreading, the flash was spreading. The same way from the spot where the

14 shell fell then, that's the way the flash came. It falls down and then it

15 flares up suddenly. It only take a fraction of a second for the flash to

16 start moving up. But it wasn't from the top of the building. It was from

17 the street level. That's what I'm saying.

18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour -- I apologise.

19 Something to do with the interpretation. The interpretation is

20 inadequate, and the witness is making a comparison there which is not

21 reflected. Therefore, he just made a comparison which is not reflected in

22 the interpretation.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Can you see any particular problem in the recording

24 of your answer?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not that familiar with the

Page 7553

1 language, really. I am slightly familiar with the language, but not

2 sufficiently.


4 Q. Sir --

5 MR. WEINER: May I question or would the Court like to ...

6 JUDGE PARKER: If you want to explore that further, Mr. Weiner.


8 Q. Sir, you indicated when a shell falls, you just said, there's a

9 flash; isn't that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When a missile falls, there's a flash; isn't that correct?

12 A. Yes. And after that you have smoke, and then the fragmentation of

13 a shell. You have rubble on all sides, and debris.

14 Q. Correct.

15 A. And the explosion itself is much more powerful, or the sound, at

16 least, than when it's being fired, but the flame at the mouth of the

17 barrel and when the shell falls and the flash.

18 Q. And we had in fact seen on the video, we saw a flash and then

19 smoke rising. We saw a missile hit, a flash, and then smoke rising. So

20 when we talk about flashes, there's a lot of different types of objects

21 that can cause a flash; isn't that correct?

22 A. Yes. Like I said, this sort of flash can be caused by the falling

23 of a shell, or rather, the firing of a shell. I don't see what else could

24 have caused a flash like that. I really can't think of anything else that

25 could, not the kind of flash that I saw, at least, except for what I said.

Page 7554

1 And I confirm this in my conversations with my colleagues, who observed

2 the same thing. So that's what I'm trying to say. My information has

3 been confirmed. That's what I'm saying. Perhaps I would challenge this

4 information had I seen myself --

5 Q. You said --

6 A. Can I continue?

7 Q. [Previous translation continues]... perhaps you would challenge it

8 if you had seen it yourself. What was that again, sir? You had

9 said: "Perhaps I would challenge ...."

10 A. So if I had seen it for myself -- my impression was it could only

11 have been caused by that, but if two other people have confirmed this, and

12 the old wisdom says that two people know more than one person alone.

13 Therefore two people saw this, then it must be true.

14 Q. What you indicated was you saw a flash, and based on the flash

15 that you saw at different times, you said you made an assumption that it

16 was a mortar firing; isn't that correct? That's what you've testified --

17 A. It could not have been any other artillery weapon. It would not

18 have been possible for anything else to be there.

19 Q. [Previous translation continues]... assumption that you made,

20 based on seeing a flash, was that it was a mortar firing; isn't that

21 correct? That was your testimony.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you further testified that you never saw the object which

24 caused the flash. You never saw that object. Isn't that correct?

25 A. All this time, throughout these two days, that's what I kept

Page 7555

1 saying. I saw the flash, and that was the result of the mortar activity.

2 Q. I want to take it step by step. You never saw the object; isn't

3 that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And then you also admit, sir, that there are other objects that

6 can cause a flash; isn't that correct, sir?

7 A. I don't recognise that. As I said, I have no information as to

8 what else might have caused that sort of flash except a projectile falling

9 there, which was not the case, or the activity of an artillery weapon. So

10 that's what I said.

11 Q. That's correct. There are other types of objects that could cause

12 a flash, such as a shell landing and exploding or a missile landing and

13 exploding; isn't that correct?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. And throughout the day, you never saw anything other than a flash

16 out of that area, even though visibility was in fact difficult?

17 A. In my previous testimony, I told you what I had seen. I told you

18 I had seen roofs burning. I told you I had seen shells falling. So it's

19 simply not true that I did not --

20 Q. I'm just asking you a specific question. Because of poor

21 visibility, all you ever saw that day was a flash on occasion; isn't that

22 true?

23 A. At the time when I saw the flash, this flash could easily be

24 observed. So when I saw the flash, it was possible to clearly observe it,

25 and then from the fall of the Maljutkas, then the boats began and then I

Page 7556

1 couldn't see the Stradun any more. But up to that point, I had noticed

2 several flashes. I can't say there were three flashes. Perhaps there

3 were three; perhaps two, perhaps five. But it certainly wasn't a single

4 flash.

5 Q. Now you saw - I'll take your parameters - between two and five

6 flashes in that area before visibility became poor; correct?

7 A. As I said, several.

8 Q. Several. And you know that several shells struck the Old Town,

9 several mortars shells; isn't that correct?

10 A. Well, not several. More.

11 Q. A large number of mortar shells struck the Old Town?

12 A. Yes, that's correct.

13 Q. And when these shells struck, they made flashes too?

14 A. Yes. Caused damage too. Fragmentation. On all sides of the

15 construction material, there was smoke. There was the construction

16 material flying all over the place and bursts. The sound of that burst

17 was quite different than the one coming from the mouth of a barrel.

18 Q. And when you saw these flashes, you saw them from mortars, there

19 were also flashes when the Maljutkas struck, as we saw right on that

20 turret. That also caused an explosion and a flash.

21 A. Therefore, a flash is the only thing connecting the fall of the

22 shell and the launching of the shell. Everything else is different: The

23 sound, the effect, the secondary results, so to speak. So these are two

24 very distinct things. There was no way I could have confused those two.

25 The fall of a shell and the launching of a shell itself, and a Maljutka.

Page 7557

1 You can see the trace of it -- only the person who launches it sees the

2 trace of a Maljutka and it develops a very high temperature. Of course

3 there will be fire and of course the target will burn down.

4 Q. And when you -- when a shell explodes behind a building, so you

5 can see the building, all you can see is the flash as it radiates up or

6 radiates to the side?

7 A. You can see the flash, you can see smoke when it falls. And as I

8 say, you can see matter flying around.

9 Q. And what you saw on that date was also a flash, either radiating

10 up, radiating diagonally, or radiating to the side?

11 A. Yes. In the early morning hours, yes. Correct. Early morning

12 hours.

13 Q. And you also admit that there's a lot of different objects that

14 can cause flashes. A camera can cause a flash, an emergency light can

15 cause a flash, a mortar shell can cause a flash, a Maljutka exploding can

16 cause a flash, a shell from other weapons, artillery can cause flashes.

17 Isn't that correct, sir?

18 A. This was a flash from the mouth of a barrel when a shell was being

19 launched. I know that much. I'm an officer. I'm an artillery officer,

20 and I know what a flash looks like when it's caused by a camera, by a

21 rotating light, or by the mouth of a barrel.

22 Q. But the difference, sir, is you never saw the object --

23 A. There's a huge difference between those.

24 Q. But the difference, sir, is you never saw the object that made

25 that flash; isn't that correct? You just saw the flash.

Page 7558

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. Speaking of objects, speaking of mortars, from the tip of the

3 barrel upward, how tall is the flash when an 82-millimetre mortar fires?

4 Do you know?

5 A. This artillery piece was between the two walls.

6 Q. No, no. Sir. Sir --

7 A. I don't believe that --

8 Q. [Previous translation continues]... different question about an

9 artillery piece, if you know. An 82-millimetre mortar, when it fires, the

10 flash that comes out of the tip of the barrel, how high does it go? Does

11 it flash for one metre high? Does it flash for two metres, three metres?

12 A. I think I began my answer all right. It's not the same thing,

13 we're talking about a closed area or an open area, whether the area was

14 limited. If the mortar had been in open field, it would have been

15 difficult for me to notice the firing and the flash, but it was positioned

16 between two buildings. And on the farther building you could easily

17 notice the flame, so that's the reason I'm telling you this.

18 Q. I'm not asking you about that incident right now. Right now I'm

19 just asking you about a mortar in general, an 82-millimetre mortar. The

20 flash, when it fires, how high does it run from the tip of the barrel

21 upward? Are we talking about two metres up?

22 A. Well, again, it's impossible. You can't compare a specific case.

23 Obviously, it's different. In the night it's much longer and in daytime

24 it's much shorter. This flash only means that the air is lighter than the

25 surrounding light, and that's how the difference in terms of light is

Page 7559

1 established. And that's that. And it's absolutely not the same thing,

2 because this is a natural phenomenon, after all.

3 Q. Then tell me: What is it during the day and what is it during the

4 night? Are we talking about one metre, two metres, three metres high?

5 A. So in this specific case, practically it was six, seven metres.

6 So that whole side of the building was lit up. It was flaring. The whole

7 side of the building, the whole building flared up at that moment. First

8 a dark red light and then moving down the spectrum to ...

9 Q. Sir, if you have two buildings across from each other and you're

10 looking so that you can only see the top area of the back building, you

11 can't see the whole building light up. You can see a small portion among

12 the top and maybe along the side, if the buildings aren't even. But you

13 can't see that whole back wall of the building; isn't that correct, sir?

14 A. As I said before, I saw that. I saw that part of the building.

15 Now, precisely whether it was three, four, five metres. The other

16 building, I did see that. And the side of the building, I could see the

17 flame reflected there. I saw the lateral part of that building, the

18 lateral side of the building. I never referred to the roof, to begin

19 with.

20 Q. But if you saw the lateral building and there was a building of

21 the same height directly in front of it, you could only see the top

22 portion of the lateral or the rear building, if you want to call it; isn't

23 that correct? You could not see the whole wall unless you were directly

24 over it looking down or unless you had the power of Superman, with x-ray

25 power, to look through the building?

Page 7560

1 A. As I said, I don't have Superman's eyesight. I definitely don't.

2 But as I said, the buildings did not overlap visually. They were distant

3 enough from one another.

4 As for the farther building, from it I saw about two, three, or

5 four metres. That's what I saw. And the nearer building did not cover

6 the building that was farther off visually. It did not obstruct my view.

7 I told you that the Stradun was in my line of vision, roughly speaking,

8 but I had that.

9 Q. But all you're able to do is see a flash, without the object which

10 caused it; isn't that correct? You never saw the object which caused it?

11 You just made an assumption about it, but you never saw it?

12 A. You've provided the answer instead of me.

13 Q. Is that correct: You never, though, saw the object that caused

14 it?

15 A. I've said that.

16 Q. Thank you. Now, I showed you the document from the General Staff

17 a while ago, from General Adzic, which warned against firing into --

18 against cultural or religious property, against hospitals. And at the end

19 of it, remember that paragraph 3 or paragraph 4, it says: "If possible,

20 take photographs. Take videos of any object prior to firing." Do you

21 recall that, sir?

22 A. No, I don't recall the part about recording. I know that at one

23 point it was said that we should take shelter from the fire. General

24 Strugar had ordered that fire not be returned, but rather that we should

25 take shelter. And I remember General Staff something about recording, but

Page 7561

1 I don't see that that changes anything in terms of the inviolability of

2 the Old Town.

3 Q. Were you also aware, sir, that the political officer, Mihajlo

4 Zarkovic, complained about certain Croatian propaganda, the Croats' use of

5 propaganda? Were you aware of that?

6 A. No.

7 MR. WEINER: Could the witness be shown two documents, P116 and

8 D78. Could we look at P116, please, paragraph 3 of the order.

9 A. You've shown me this before.

10 Q. Yes.

11 A. And I told you that I had seen it.

12 Q. And do you see the final phrase in parentheses, or actually read

13 the final sentence: "Wherever possible, such cases should be documented

14 (photographs, video recordings, witness statements, and suchlike)." Do

15 you see that, sir?

16 A. Will you please repeat that.

17 Q. Sure. Do you see the final sentence of paragraph 3 of the order:

18 "Whenever possible, such cases should also be documented (photographs,

19 video recordings, witness statements, and suchlike)."

20 A. This one here, yes.

21 Q. And then could we look at, very quickly, D88, please, second page.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Did you see 88 or 78?

23 MR. WEINER: I'm sorry. D88. I'm very sorry.

24 Q. Do you see three paragraphs up from the bottom: "The task of the

25 officers is to use" -- I'm sorry.

Page 7562

1 MR. WEINER: Sorry about that, Madam Registrar.

2 Q. Do you see three paragraphs from the bottom: "The task of the

3 officers is to use specific examples to inform their men and lay bare the

4 lives of enemy propaganda, as well as to ensure that there is no detriment

5 affect on the morale of the units." Do you see that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, from the general command, we see that they ask you that,

8 whenever possible, to take photographs or videos of any enemy weaponry in

9 a protected area; isn't that correct? In the previous document.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And in this document, Commander Zarkovic mentions the task is to

12 use specific examples to inform the men and lay bare the lies of enemy

13 propaganda. Basically, bring proof to show that the Croats are lying or

14 using propaganda of some kind; isn't that correct?

15 A. Absolutely.

16 Q. So while you were up on Zarkovica, while you were up on Zarkovica

17 and you claim to have seen a mortar and you claim to have seen an

18 anti-aircraft gun, did you photograph either weapon?

19 A. Photograph it with what?

20 Q. There was testimony that some people had cameras up there. Did

21 you photograph any of those two weapons you claim to have seen?

22 A. Well, some people. I was a battery commander up there, and I was

23 observing the points with appropriate equipment. This order does not

24 refer to me. My task, as a soldier, is to guide the fire of the battery

25 and to command the battery. As for this, there is a special information

Page 7563

1 service of the unit, and they deal with such matters, not I. I do not

2 take photographs. I am a battery commander.

3 Q. Did you see or order anyone as battery commander to take

4 photographs of those weapons?

5 A. I could not have ordered anyone to do it, or would I have the

6 right to do that.

7 Q. Did you ask anyone to take photographs of those weapons that you

8 allege to have seen?

9 A. I have already given you an answer. No.

10 Q. Did you take any videos? Did you or anyone else up on Zarkovica

11 take any videos as to those weapons that you had seen, as required or

12 requested by the Chief of Staff of the General Staff of the JNA? Did you

13 do that?

14 A. I was not asked to do that. You did not understand the order

15 properly.

16 Q. I'm just saying: Did you. Not whether you were asked. Did you,

17 or did you see anyone else do so, as requested by the Chief of Staff of

18 the General Staff of the JNA?

19 A. Again, these instructions do not pertain to me and I did not do

20 that. As far as information is concerned, documentation, whatever, except

21 for my statement, there is nothing else, and there is no need to put any

22 further questions to me, because the answer is no.

23 Q. Now --

24 MR. WEINER: You can sit down, Madam Usher. If you could leave

25 D88 there, and you can just sit down.

Page 7564

1 Q. Now, sir, you claimed that you had seen flashes, which you had

2 believed to be a mortar, in the Old Town. You claimed to have seen an

3 anti-aircraft gun somewhere either on the walls of the Old Town or by the

4 walls of the Old Town. Did you immediately contact your superiors to

5 contact the Croatians to have them remove those weapons? Did you --

6 first, did you make any contact?

7 A. I was subordinated to Captain Kovacevic. Captain Kovacevic

8 clearly noted that, and Captain Kovacevic, I can only assume that, asked

9 for it. I was not next to him. So what you're asking about is something

10 that he should have done, and I think that he did do it.

11 Q. Did you notify Captain Kovacevic that you had seen flashes coming

12 from the Old Town and that you thought you had seen an anti-aircraft gun

13 by the walls of the Old Town? Did you notify Captain Kovacevic?

14 A. He was aware of that information before I was. I'm not the person

15 who informed him. He had already received that information.

16 Q. Were you present when Captain Kovacevic called -- made any contact

17 to anyone to have those weapons removed?

18 A. He was in contact non-stop. He called non-stop, either from a

19 mobile device or from a stationary device or from a telephone. But at any

20 rate, he was in command that day.

21 Q. And when you say he was in non-stop contact, would that be with

22 the command of the 9th VPS?

23 A. Well, as you said, I'm not Superman. I can't tell. I can't know

24 that.

25 Q. So you were never present -- or were you present for any of his

Page 7565

1 conversations, by radio or telephone?

2 A. The only thing I know as far as contacts are concerned, I was

3 present, but I didn't hear that. They were far away enough from me not

4 to -- for me not to be able to hear it. At any rate, Captain Kovacevic

5 would not be talking so that everybody could hear it. I know that when he

6 asked me for fire, I pointed at Commander Zec, and I know that he asked

7 him for permission to fire, and I know that Captain Zec did not give him

8 permission to fire. As for the rest, I don't know for sure who he talked

9 to and what kind of contact it was.

10 Q. So you don't know if any contact was made that day to the

11 Croatians to remove any potential weapons before the Old Town was shelled?

12 You weren't present for any conversations, so you can't tell?

13 A. I was present, but I wasn't listening, or I could not hear it,

14 rather. There are people who are relevant for that matter and who can

15 confirm whatever you need confirmed. I'm not a witness that can answer

16 that kind of question and that can be of any benefit to you for that

17 matter.

18 Q. So you basically never overheard any conversations to the Croatian

19 side, period? No?

20 A. No. I mean, I'm confirming what you said. I did not. And I

21 could not, for that matter.

22 Q. And you do know that after -- that during the day the Old Town was

23 shelled heavily?

24 A. We discussed that.

25 Q. Now, you were up on Zarkovica for most of the day, and you had --

Page 7566

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. -- a front-row seat, as you might call it, to the action that was

3 occurring. You saw the shelling by the JNA of the Old Town, you saw the

4 shelling and the attack on Srdj; isn't that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And as a result of the position that you were in, did anyone --

7 I'm sorry. Did anyone call you and tell you to report to the

8 2nd Operational Group and tell them what you had seen? Were you called to

9 the 2nd Operational Group, the command of the 2nd Operational Group, and

10 asked what you had seen on that day?

11 A. I don't understand what this question means. I told you at the

12 very outset that I was an officer who was subordinated to Captain

13 Kovacevic, so my task was quite clear. I could not disregard my superior

14 officer.

15 Q. You were aware that there was a 2nd Operational Group and General

16 Strugar was the commander; isn't that true?

17 A. Absolutely.

18 Q. Were you called to report to the command of the 2nd Operational

19 Group - and this is after December 6th - to explain what you had observed

20 on December 6th from Zarkovica? Were you ever called to the command of

21 the 2nd Operational Group and asked to explain what you had seen on

22 December 6th from Zarkovica?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Were you ever met or interviewed by anyone in this command of the

25 2nd Operational Group as to what you had seen on Zarkovica on the 6th of

Page 7567

1 December, 1991?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Were you ever questioned by anyone in the 2nd Operational Group as

4 to your role on Zarkovica on December 6th in 1991?

5 A. I mean, it makes no sense that anybody from the command of the 2nd

6 Operational Group would ask me what I was doing there. I was doing my

7 professional work, which is clearly spelled out. It's not of my own free

8 will that I came there by accident. I was sent there to carry out an

9 assignment. And according to the regulations pertaining to the use of a

10 battery, it is well known what I did there.

11 Q. Thank you. What I'm just asking you is: Did anyone from the 2nd

12 Operational Group ask you what you did on that day? Did anyone come and

13 ask you or have you place in writing what you had done on that day? It's

14 a yes-or-no question.

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did anyone, as part of an investigation, ever speak to you after

17 December 6th, anyone? It doesn't even have to be in the 2nd Operational

18 Group, concerning what happened on that day, concerning your observations?

19 Did anyone contact you and interview you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Who interviewed you?

22 A. Admiral Jokic, a year ago. I'm sure that he provided you with a

23 copy of that, or I cannot be sure, but I think he did. I was supposed to

24 be his Defence witness. I was supposed to testify about what I testified

25 about today.

Page 7568

1 Q. And other than Admiral Jokic one year ago, has anyone else

2 contacted you? Not for trial, but as part of an investigation as to what

3 occurred on the 6th of December, 1991.

4 A. No one.

5 Q. Sir, you were contacted on the 5th of December by your commander

6 and told to report on December 6th to Zarkovica, isn't that correct, and

7 you did so?

8 A. Yes. He did not say that I was supposed to show up at Zarkovica.

9 He gave me a task that clearly spelled out what I was supposed to do. It

10 wasn't a question of showing up or reporting.

11 Q. And you were told that there was a battle plan and that the guns

12 would be ready; isn't that correct?

13 A. I was told that I was supposed to give fire support when the

14 feature of Srdj was being taken, if necessary.

15 Q. Now, did anyone tell you that negotiations were being finalised

16 for a cease-fire on the 6th of December?

17 A. No. I was not aware of that. I did not know about that. As for

18 the cease-fires, there were quite a few of them, and every one of them was

19 observed by me, and of course by the unit that I was subordinated to.

20 Q. Did anyone tell you that Admiral Jokic was negotiating with

21 ministers of the Croatian government, basically the top level of the

22 Croatian government, and that a cease-fire would probably occur at 12.00

23 noon on December 6th, 1991? Were you aware of that?

24 A. I know that Admiral Jokic, by the very nature of his job, had

25 representatives -- had contacts with the representatives of the local

Page 7569

1 authorities, and further on, the government of Croatia. Now, whether it

2 was specifically on that day, and when the cease-fire was supposed to

3 enter into force, I don't know exactly. I just know that these talks were

4 always conducted in relation to the cease-fire.

5 Q. But you were not aware that a cease-fire was planned to occur on

6 the following day, on December 6th, the same day that the JNA was

7 attacking Mount Srdj?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Now, one last document I'd like to show you. It is D65.

10 Sir, this document is to the command of the 9th VPS, dated

11 December 7th, 1991, at 1.00; isn't that correct?

12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my colleague phrased

13 the question properly, but it was not interpreted into B/C/S properly. So

14 could my colleague please put the question again.

15 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.


18 Q. Sir, this is a letter to the command of the 9th VPS at 1.00 on

19 December 7th, 1991.

20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour --

21 MR. WEINER: It's from the command of the 9th VPS, for General

22 Simunovic of the First Administration.

23 Q. Is that correct?

24 A. [No interpretation]

25 Q. Now, do you see the paragraph? It's in the middle. In English

Page 7570

1 it's on the second page. It says: "Considering that the commander of the

2 3rd Battalion of the 472nd Motorised Brigade assessed that the enemy had

3 crossed the line of tolerance." Do you see that paragraph on the second

4 page, sir, second page in the English?

5 A. I'm sorry. I did not hear your question because I focused on

6 reading the document.

7 Q. If you see the beginning of the document, it has a 1 and then a 1A

8 and then a 1B, and then another 1B. And then two paragraphs down from

9 that, it says: "Considering that the commander of the 3rd/472nd MBTR,

10 Motorised Brigade, assessed that the enemy had crossed the line of

11 tolerance." Do you see that?

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 Q. Could you read that paragraph, sir? It's a long paragraph. Could

14 you read it, please.

15 A. The action on Srdj -- oh, I see. Now that you've told me.

16 Q. Sir, have you read the paragraph?

17 A. Yes, I have.

18 Q. Sir, do you agree with me that it describes firing upon the JNA

19 troops during the morning? Have you --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And do you agree, sir, that nowhere in that paragraph does it say

22 that there was any fire from the Old Town? Isn't that correct? Nowhere

23 in that paragraph.

24 A. No.

25 Q. Okay. And do you agree --

Page 7571

1 A. I beg your pardon. Until the attack starts -- before the attack

2 started at 6.00 a.m., our forces were fired at from the Old Town of

3 Dubrovnik. So it's not true that there is no reference to that here.

4 There is.

5 Q. It says: "Heavy fire was opened on our forces from 82 millimetres

6 from the city of Dubrovnik, which lasted until 1430 hours."

7 A. From the town of Dubrovnik, yes.

8 Q. The city. But it doesn't --

9 A. Yes, the city.

10 Q. There's a difference between the city of Dubrovnik and the Old

11 Town of Dubrovnik. The city of Dubrovnik is a municipality that takes

12 several areas. Nowhere in this document does it say from the Old Town,

13 sir; isn't that correct?

14 A. The town or city of Dubrovnik is a broader notion, including the

15 narrower notion of the Old Town of Dubrovnik. So one does not exclude the

16 other.

17 Q. But nowhere in this document does it say there was any outgoing

18 fire from the Old Town, specifically indicate the Old Town; is that

19 correct?

20 A. It's not said very precisely. It says from the city of Dubrovnik.

21 So I cannot say. It says from the city.

22 Q. But nowhere in the document does it say "the Old Town," that there

23 was outgoing fire from the Old Town; isn't that correct, sir? I'm not

24 looking to your opinions, your views. I'm looking at this document.

25 Nowhere in the document does it list -- does it say "the Old Town." Is

Page 7572

1 that correct?

2 A. The position from where it was coming is not spelled out

3 specifically anywhere.

4 Q. Sir, nowhere in the document does it say "the Old Town," is that

5 correct, that there was outgoing fire from the Old Town?

6 A. You see, if I were to say that, I would be contesting this

7 document. I mean, I don't agree with what is being said. It is not

8 precise.

9 Q. [Previous translation continues]... your opinion. I'm not asking

10 you for your observations. I'm asking --

11 A. What are you asking me about if you're not asking me for my

12 opinion?

13 Q. I'm asking not for your observations or what you saw. I'm asking

14 you about this document. Nowhere in this document does it say that there

15 was outgoing fire from the Old Town. It's a simple question. It's either

16 yes or it's no. Look at the document. Nowhere in there does it say there

17 was outgoing fire from the Old Town.

18 A. On the basis of that question -- I mean, you're asking me to give

19 an unequivocal answer to an illogical question. Fire was opened from the

20 town of Dubrovnik or the city of Dubrovnik. I cannot simply answer yes or

21 no. The question is not put properly. I cannot give you an answer.

22 Please don't insist.

23 Q. Sir, if your counsel wants to object, he can object and the Court

24 can decide on that matter.

25 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber will intervene, though. If you're

Page 7573

1 merely asking the witness: Are the words "Old Town" there, you don't need

2 an answer. They're not there. If he says the city of Dubrovnik or the

3 town of Dubrovnik includes the Old Town, so he is not willing to say this

4 document isn't referring to the Old Town. It can't be taken further than

5 that, can it, Mr. Weiner?

6 MR. WEINER: Yes. He can say that the Old Town is not referred to

7 in that context.

8 JUDGE PARKER: In so many words. But it may be included in the

9 reference to the city of Dubrovnik. That's what he said some time ago.


11 Q. Sir, let's go to the sentence halfway down: "From 7.45 to 8.30

12 hours, the ladder from 9.00, 10.00 to 11.15 hours, the commander of the

13 3rd of the 5th PMTBR fired on MB," which is mortar battery positions, "on

14 the noticed Zenga groups in the regions." And they are Lazaret [phoen],

15 Hotel Neptun, Nuncijat, Sustjepan, Hotel Petka, Babin Kuk, Libertas. That

16 is all targets, and it says: "Outside of the Old Town." Is that correct,

17 they're all targets outside of the Old Town?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you. No further questions. Thank you.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic.

21 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could the witness be

22 provided with document D62 first, please.

23 Re-examined by Mr. Petrovic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Pepic, would you please take a look at the

25 document first and tell us: Who issued the document and what type of

Page 7574

1 document it is.

2 A. This is a report of the command of the 9th VPS, sent to the

3 command of the 2nd Operational Group. So it's a regular combat report,

4 dated the 6th of December, 1991.

5 Q. Take a look now, please, at who compiled the document and you'll

6 find that on page 2.

7 A. The Chief of Staff, warship Captain Milan Zec.

8 Q. Could you now take a look at it and tell us whether it is the same

9 Captain Zec who was at Zarkovica?

10 A. Yes, it was.

11 Q. Who was at Zarkovica on the 6th of December, 1991?

12 A. Yes. As I've just stated.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please make pauses between

14 question and answer. Thank you.

15 MR. WEINER: [Previous translation continues]... during

16 cross-examination.

17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, for the last ten

18 minutes of the cross-examination by my learned colleague, we have had

19 direct reference to what I have just shown the witness, so would you

20 please allow me to go ahead. As my colleague insists, everything is

21 contained in the document. So I think there is every reason to present

22 this document to the witness. Paragraph 1, and I can read it out if you

23 would like me to do so. Precisely contains the answers to the questions

24 just raised by the Prosecution.

25 JUDGE PARKER: In my note, it was D65 that was shown to the

Page 7575

1 witness.

2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, he was shown D65.

3 Absolutely correct. Now, D62 is before the witness now, and this has a

4 direct bearing on what my learned colleague Mr. Weiner asked related to

5 D65. It clarifies the point and question raised by my learned friend.

6 And if you will allow me to ask a question about the Old Town and firing

7 from the Old Town in the reports of the 9th VPS, we'll be able to clear

8 that up. There were two reports by the 9th VPS. One report was D65 and

9 the second one is the regular combat report bearing the number D62. They

10 relate to the same events, the same circumstances, but the explanations

11 lie in this particular document, D62. I can read it out if you so desire,

12 and then you will see the relevance of what I'm saying, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE PARKER: I have the D62 now, and it's not a report to the

14 First Administration for General Simunovic. It's a report to the 2nd

15 Operational Group.

16 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. It is a regular

17 combat report of the 9th VPS to the 2nd Operational Group for the day, the

18 6th of December, which sets out the data which coincide with what this

19 witness testified about. And I'd like to ask the Court's permission for

20 me to show the document to the witness. And I'm referring to the last

21 sentence of paragraph 1.

22 JUDGE PARKER: I think this is an issue which can be seen to

23 properly arise from the cross-examination, especially that last part. If

24 it's confined to that last sentence at paragraph 1.

25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Just the

Page 7576

1 last sentence, yes.

2 Q. Mr. Pepic, in the document before you, which is document D62,

3 would you please read out what it says under number 1 about the enemy.

4 Have you read that?

5 A. Yes, I have.

6 Q. Does it say there in that regular combat report of the 9th VPS

7 information about the operations of the enemy from the region of the Old

8 Town?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could you please read out what it says. The last sentence,

11 please.

12 A. Well, I was wondering whether to. It says the enemy kept changing

13 the positions of the mortar so that fire was occasionally opened from the

14 Stradun region as well as from the old city port.

15 Q. Mr. Pepic, what the command of the 9th VPS is informing the

16 2nd Operational Group about and the military naval district about, does it

17 correspond to what you yourself saw and what you testified about before

18 this Honourable Trial Chamber?

19 A. Yes, it does, completely.

20 MR. WEINER: Totally leading question. This isn't

21 cross-examination [sic].

22 JUDGE PARKER: You understand that, Mr. Petrovic.

23 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE PARKER: There's no need for that sort of objection, because

25 you ought to be able to put your questions properly on such a matter.

Page 7577

1 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Yes.

2 There's no need for me to dwell on this document any longer. It speaks

3 for itself.

4 Q. Mr. Pepic, you said, you told us, that you talked to Admiral Jokic

5 in preparation for his defence; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you told Admiral Jokic everything you told us here in Court

8 today?

9 A. Correct.

10 MR. WEINER: I'd object at this time. It's totally outside the

11 relevance of our case that we're dealing with here. There might be

12 attorney/client privilege between what he said to Admiral Jokic, what he

13 said to Admiral Jokic's investigators, and it's not relevant to this

14 matter. That's why I got right off it.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Well, the last part is obvious. There's no

16 relevance in that, Mr. Petrovic, to our case, whatever he may have said to

17 Admiral Jokic. If you would leave that topic.

18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Yes.

19 Q. Did you, Mr. Pepic, the 107th OAG, your superior command, did you

20 inform them about everything you had observed that day in Zarkovica on the

21 6th of December, 1991?

22 A. Yes. That is to say my first command for opening fire came at

23 8.00.

24 Q. Could you concentrate on my question, please. Let me repeat: Did

25 you inform your superior command about the events at Zarkovica, that is to

Page 7578

1 say, the command of the 107th OAG?

2 A. About my firing positions, yes, I did, absolutely.

3 Q. Did the command of the 107th OAG report its -- to its superior

4 command on what you had reported to them about?

5 A. I assume they did. They certainly did, because we see that from

6 the events that followed.

7 MR. WEINER: He's speculating now. I assume -- he said I assume

8 he did and then he said: Certainly --

9 JUDGE PARKER: It is speculative. You can ask whether he knows.

10 I think we clearly have the answer to that. You really can't take it

11 further than that.

12 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Did you ever, on any subject, report or inform the 2nd Operational

14 Group?

15 A. No.

16 Q. My colleague asked you about the fire that was opened between six

17 to ten on the Old Town on that day, the 6th, with respect to the length of

18 it, the 6th of December. Was fire really opened between six and ten on

19 the positions of the JNA and the region you're talking about?

20 A. It would appear that there was fire all the time. It didn't last

21 that long.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, not clear whether time, 6.00

23 to 10.00 a.m. or the number of hours.

24 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Did anybody ever, from the 9th VPS, call you to make a statement

Page 7579

1 or clarify the events of the 6th of December, 1991?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Tell us briefly once again how you distinguish between the flash

4 of a mortar explosion from the flash caused from the mouth of a barrel.

5 A. The flash caused from the mouth of a barrel comes immediately

6 after the shell leaves the barrel, and just as a flash of light expands,

7 the sound of the shell falling is much weaker. So you only see a flash

8 without fragmentation and without smoke. The flash of a mortar, you hear

9 the fragmentation and dispersion of construction material and so on, and

10 you see fire and smoke to follow. And it's an enormous difference, a huge

11 difference.

12 Q. How much practice do you yourself have in distinguishing between

13 the firing and detonation, explosion?

14 A. I am the -- I was the commander of a battery for seven years, six

15 years, in actual fact, the commander of a platoon and a battery, and each

16 year we would have at least two shooting sessions with an active army, and

17 we had training and exercise with my protection part, which includes an

18 82-millimetre battery. And during that shooting and firing that I took

19 part in myself, or rather that I was in command of and observed, there is

20 no calibre from which I did not shoot myself. So I know absolutely

21 everything there is to know in that area.

22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think it's time for

23 a break. I have another five or ten minutes of re-examination of this

24 witness. So I suggest, if you approve, of course, that we take a break,

25 our second break for the day now.

Page 7580

1 JUDGE PARKER: We will resume at a quarter to.

2 --- Recess taken at 12.26 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 12.48 p.m.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic.

5 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Just a few

6 short questions.

7 Q. Mr. Pepic, you testified over the past two days to the effect that

8 it was your assignment on the 6th of December to lend support to Captain

9 Kovacevic.

10 A. Yes, that's true. Correct.

11 Q. You were supposed to give Captain Kovacevic artillery support with

12 your battery's 130-millimetre cannons?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You were supposed to be re-subordinated to Captain Kovacevic?

15 A. That's what I did.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please slow down and make

17 pauses between question and answer.

18 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. You got your assignment from your commander; is that right?

20 A. Yes, that is right.

21 Q. And the assignment was to open fire pursuant to orders from the

22 commander of the 3rd Battalion; is that right?

23 A. Yes, right. Correct.

24 Q. Was there any initiative on your part in any of this?

25 A. No.

Page 7581

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

2 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Would you now take a look at the document D65, please.

4 Mr. Pepic, you saw the document a moment ago when it was shown to

5 you by my learned friend; is that right?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. Towards the end of the first page of that document, on the B/C/S

8 version, it says the following: That the commander of that unit of the

9 3rd Battalion of the 472nd Brigade made the decision to attack Srdj and

10 eliminate the danger but that nobody approved that operation. Now, is

11 what it says in this report, does it coincide with what you know about the

12 operation on Srdj? Is it the same thing?

13 A. Well, quite obviously it is not.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, I have no

16 further questions.

17 Questioned by the Court:

18 JUDGE PARKER: You told us yesterday --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

20 JUDGE PARKER: You told us yesterday in your evidence that you

21 were ordered by Captain Kovacevic to fire, I think you said on the first

22 occasion at about 0800 hours. Mortars had been identified, firing in the

23 vicinity of the Libertas Hotel and tennis courts there. You said you gave

24 the order to your battery. That means you used your radio to communicate

25 with your battery commander, is that right, or your deputy commander down

Page 7582

1 there?

2 A. Correct.

3 JUDGE PARKER: When you gave that order, there was no firing?

4 A. Correct.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Was it the role of the deputy commander to get

6 authority to fire from a superior command?

7 A. He did not have to receive authority. I was subordinate to

8 Captain Kovacevic. However, the commander of the artillery battalion used

9 his right to prevent and did prevent the opening of fire. And that was

10 Lieutenant Colonel Stamenov.

11 JUDGE PARKER: And where was he located?

12 A. He was located near the firing position.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Down at Cilipi, in the area of Cilipi?

14 A. Correct. My battery was between two paths, and he was in the

15 airport building itself. So as the crow flies, about 50 metres.

16 JUDGE PARKER: So it was the battery commander who refused

17 permission to fire each time you gave an order to fire; is that it?

18 A. No. It wasn't the commander of the battery; it was the commander

19 of the artillery battalion. That was a higher rank. I was battery

20 commander, he was commander of the division or artillery battalion, and he

21 stopped the firing.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

23 A. You're welcome.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Are you able to say how many times you gave an

25 order to fire that day?

Page 7583

1 A. I issued my order at 0800 hours, and I repeated the order at least

2 twice. The next came at around 9.00, and by 9.30 there was one more. I

3 know about that for certain. That's what I'm sure about. And I was in

4 radio communication with the deputy commander, and I was explaining the

5 situation to him. So I was explaining our losses to him. May I be

6 allowed to continue? And I clearly observed the target and that I said

7 that I needed only two shells for that.

8 JUDGE PARKER: And each time the target was this mortar position

9 near the Libertas Hotel; is that what you're saying?

10 A. Correct.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Was it only those three times that you gave an

12 order for firing that day?

13 A. I know that it was three times for certain. The rest was to

14 persuade the superior command to grant me permission, because had that

15 permission been granted for the firing, I can say with certainty that none

16 of the rest of it would ever have happened. That is to say, there

17 wouldn't have been the bombing of Dubrovnik.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE PARKER: Were you ever told the reason of your battalion

20 commander for not authorising the firing?

21 A. In an informal information, I learnt that it wasn't his order; it

22 was an order from the command of the 9th Military Naval Sector, in fact,

23 and they were abreast of the situation throughout. The reason was that

24 the shell might have made an error and fallen into the Old Town itself by

25 mistake, and that could not have happened in any event.

Page 7584

1 JUDGE PARKER: Is it the case that the battalion commander was in

2 contact with the command of the 9th Military Naval Sector?

3 A. Absolutely correct, yes.

4 JUDGE PARKER: So whenever you requested permission to fire, he

5 contacted the 9th Military Naval Sector; is that it?

6 A. Absolutely so, yes.

7 JUDGE PARKER: How did he do that? Did he have radio or

8 telephone, or what was his communication?

9 A. He had at least two types of communication: A telephone

10 communication, cable, and radio communication. Now, in this particular

11 case, as it was the command posts which had been taken control of for some

12 time, it was telephone communication and, in principle, you first resort

13 to telephone communication, and only afterwards do you resort to radio

14 communication or a human being in the form of a courier to convey your

15 messages.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. I'd like to thank you for your

17 attendance and your assistance. You'll be pleased to know that that's the

18 end of your evidence and you are now free to return to your duties. Thank

19 you.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank you too, Your Honour.

21 [The witness withdrew]

22 JUDGE PARKER: Next witness, Mr. Rodic.

23 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, Your Honour. The Defence

24 would like to call our next witness.

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 7585

1 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. Would you please read the

2 affirmation that is on the card.


4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Please sit down.

8 Mr. Rodic.

9 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Examined by Mr. Rodic:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, can you please state your full name to the

12 Court.

13 A. My name is Petre Handzijev.

14 Q. Can you please tell us your date of birth and place of birth?

15 A. I was born on the 10th of March, 1943, in the village of Rakite,

16 in the Republic of Greece. The Greeks refer to the village as Olimpias.

17 Q. What's your nationally?

18 A. I am an Aegean Macedonian by ethnicity.

19 Q. Can you please tell us your education background?

20 A. I completed my secondary education in Skopje, the naval military

21 academy at Split. Then a specialised course following the completion of

22 military academy, and then further specialised courses for anti-submarine

23 fighting in the late 1980s.

24 Q. Were you an active member of the JNA?

25 A. I was an active member of the JNA from 1966 to 2000.

Page 7586

1 Q. What's your status at present?

2 A. I am -- I have retired.

3 Q. What was your rank at the time you retired?

4 A. Warship captain.

5 Q. This is a navy rank. Can you please tell us in terms of infantry

6 ranks, what would that be, roughly speaking?

7 A. Colonel, the rank of colonel.

8 Q. Thank you. In the course of your career in the JNA, which

9 garrisons did you serve in?

10 A. Between 1966 and 1978, I served at the gunship artillery battalion

11 at Lora, in Split, and this was a special unit which was providing

12 security for the Marsala Tita barracks. Correction, for Marsal Tito

13 personally.

14 Q. Where did you go to serve after 1978?

15 A. After 1978, I got a transfer to the 9th Military Naval Sector in

16 Boka Kotorska.

17 Q. In the 9th Military Naval Sector, in Boka, is that where you

18 stayed until your retirement?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you please tell us which positions you held for most of your

21 service with the 9th VPS.

22 A. I was an administrator in the operations and teaching department,

23 and I spent my whole time there in that same department.

24 Q. Who does that department belong to? Who or to which command does

25 that department belong to?

Page 7587

1 A. It's part of the 9th VPS command.

2 Q. Where was the command post of the 9th VPS?

3 A. It was at the headquarters, at the command building, on the second

4 floor.

5 Q. And what is the location?

6 A. Kumbor.

7 Q. Thank you. In 1991, which position did you hold?

8 A. 1991, my position was that of the chief of the operations centre

9 of the peacetime command. I was also a member of a team for professional

10 duty.

11 Q. This duty, was it carried out at the operations centre of the

12 command of the 9th VPS at Kumbor?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What do we find in the operational centre of the 9th VPS command

15 at Kumbor? What was there? What did the operational centre include?

16 A. There's an operations room. There's another room, the

17 communications department. The encryption officer. It has an observation

18 station, a coastal observation station, monitoring the situation, and an

19 air monitoring unit or department.

20 Q. Can you please tell us which officers were on duty at the

21 operational centre.

22 A. Which year are you referring to?

23 Q. 1991.

24 A. In 1991, for the most part, duty had been stepped up at the

25 operations centre, in view of the many tasks that were later foisted on

Page 7588

1 us, so there were two further administrators working there for the rear,

2 from the operations organ.

3 Q. Very well. Can you tell me what one can find in the rooms of the

4 operational centre of the 9th VPS command at Kumbor?

5 A. In the rooms of the 9th VPS command centre, there is a

6 switchboard, the duty-officer, like a small switchboard, it's a desk, and

7 there's an STINA computer system, which has a direct link with the

8 monitoring radar, the Falcon monitoring radar, and this is used for

9 automatic monitoring of the situation on the surface. Then there is a

10 planchet for manual monitoring of the situation on the surface and another

11 planchet for the monitoring of air targets.

12 Q. Can we just have this confirmed, please. At the operations centre

13 you have a duty desk with telephone communication lines, if I understand

14 you correctly.

15 A. Telephone communication lines only for a situation where this is

16 the only switchboard. In view of the fact that military communications

17 with Croatia had been cut, and this was the only switchboard through which

18 one could establish communication with the units that were in Croatia.

19 Q. Very well. What about the operational centre? Was there a

20 department there where you had radio communications?

21 A. Yes. We had radio communications, and the radio network was

22 always open. This was used for the salvaging of vessels at sea and for

23 emergency situations.

24 Q. Can you please tell me: In what way could one establish a link

25 with the units in Croatia and the forward command post at Kupari, or with

Page 7589

1 Trebinje, for example?

2 A. Only through us. Therefore, they called us and we were the

3 switchboard that put them through to whoever.

4 Q. When you say "through us," can you specify, please.

5 A. Through the desk, or switchboard. It was some sort of a

6 switchboard, and as soon as someone called and asked to be put through to

7 a certain unit or the forward command post, or someone else who was at the

8 BIS, we were able to put them through.

9 Q. Therefore, it was only through the operational centre at Kumbor

10 that this would have been possible?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What about the other way around? What I want to know is whether

13 the Kupari forward command post could have a direct link with the units in

14 Croatia, or specifically, with Trebinje.

15 A. No.

16 Q. What about the operations group at Trebinje?

17 A. No. Only through us.

18 Q. Can you tell us, sir: How would they establish communication from

19 the ford command post at Kupari with the command of the operations group

20 in Trebinje? In what way? Can you explain, please.

21 A. They would call us. It's as simple as that. I tell him to hold,

22 then I would call the operations centre in Trebinje and I would put him

23 through.

24 Q. Would it be done the same way if Trebinje asked to speak to the

25 forward command post at Kupari?

Page 7590

1 A. Yes, in the very same way.

2 Q. What about the Kupari forward command post? Can they establish a

3 direct link with Belgrade?

4 A. No. Only through us.

5 Q. I assume the same applies to the situation the other way around,

6 doesn't it. Belgrade and the forward command post at Kupari?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. First and foremost, I want to know about the period between

9 October and December 1991. Tell us, sir: Did you spend this whole period

10 of time at Kumbor?

11 A. Yes, the whole time.

12 Q. Tell me, sir: What sort of activities were carried out at the VPS

13 command at Kumbor as at the time you had a forward command post at Kupari?

14 A. In addition to the basic tasks that we had monitoring the air and

15 surface situation and monitoring the activities across the units that were

16 not within the zone of responsibility of the VPS and not engaged in combat

17 operations, most of the time we had to deal with a whole number of other

18 tasks that we had to focus on gradually. We were receiving units that

19 were being relocated from Croatia, units, manpower, military equipment and

20 weapons, families, and their belongings. That was the main task, the

21 principal task, and there was another task that we had to deal with. In

22 some way, the operational centre became also an information centre, due to

23 the fact that many soldiers were still in the barracks in Croatia, and we

24 were receiving hundreds of calls on a daily basis from their mothers

25 asking to be told about their sons, asking for information.

Page 7591

1 This may seem as a trivial task, but for me it was a very

2 important task, and I attached a lot of importance to this. I was nearly

3 able to track down every single soldier, and I was nearly able to

4 establish communication with each and every one of them via telephone.

5 Q. Tell me about this relocation of the unit, of the military naval

6 district, from Croatian territory. Was that an ongoing task throughout

7 this period of time?

8 A. Yes, it was an ongoing task. And we were coordinators, this

9 entire team that was appointed through the commander's order. We were

10 coordinators, and we monitored the ships that carried out this

11 transportation.

12 Q. Were there any problems with the accommodation of the personnel

13 involved, equipment, the families of these officers?

14 A. There were major problems involved. It was chaos all over.

15 Q. Tell me: What was your personal feeling with regard to this

16 entire situation in 1991, when all of this was taking place?

17 A. For me, personally, it was a very difficult situation. I, as a

18 human being, was, as our people say, between a rock and a hard place. On

19 the one hand, I had the military oath that I made, and my wish to carry

20 out my duties as an officer, according to the constitution.

21 On the other hand, my own kin lived in Macedonia, and they were

22 beseeching me to come back home. They were complaining. But my friends

23 are mostly Croats, because my wife is originally Croatian. And they were

24 telling me that I should leave the army altogether and that they would

25 find me a job on a commercial ship. So that was what the situation was,

Page 7592

1 and it was really hard for me.

2 Q. Thank you. In the operations centre of the VPS in Kumbor, was

3 there a logbook?

4 A. There was an operations logbook, and there was this working map,

5 so everything was entered into the logbook and into the working map, all

6 the activities we had and unit movements.

7 Q. Tell me: What entries were made in the operations logbook at the

8 peacetime command post in Kumbor?

9 A. All the activities that took place on that day, all the orders

10 that we would receive, then protests. That's it, for the most part.

11 Everything that happened and everything that was important, we registered

12 there.

13 Q. All right. Do you know whether there was a war logbook at the

14 operations centre of the 9th VPS in Kupari?

15 A. It was identical as it was where we were. This is in accordance

16 with the rules and regulations that this kind of logbook and work map are

17 kept in both places, that is to say, the logbook and the work map.

18 Q. All right. Tell me: Do you know which operations officers worked

19 at the forward command post Kupari of the 9th VPS?

20 A. I don't know. Well, it was warship Captain Kozaric; then

21 Zarkovic, also warship captain; then Drljan, frigate captain; Dzelebdjic.

22 I think he was a corvette captain. I can't remember exactly the rank he

23 held then. And there were some officers who came from Belgrade too, but I

24 didn't know them.

25 Q. All right. Tell me: Did you ever work at the operations centre

Page 7593

1 at the forward command post in Kupari?

2 A. Yes. From 1992 I went there, so I don't know whether it was

3 February or some other month, but that's when I went there.

4 Q. All right. Tell me, please: Are you aware of any activities of

5 the 9th Military Naval Sector on the date of the 6th of December, 1991?

6 Around Dubrovnik.

7 A. I am aware of that. I don't know whether it was 9.00 or 10.00.

8 It was in the morning, at any rate. We know that there was some activity

9 going on there and that our forces had sustained losses, considerable

10 losses. That's what we heard then.

11 Q. On that day, the 6th of December, 1991, were you on duty at the

12 operations centre in Kumbor?

13 A. Yes, I was present there all the time.

14 Q. On that day, the 6th of December, 1991, in Kumbor, did you have

15 any contacts with the Dubrovnik side in relation to that situation?

16 A. As far as I can remember, at one point in time I heard part of a

17 conversation that Minister Rudolf had, I don't know with whom exactly, I

18 just heard this one fragment, when he was complaining to someone in panic,

19 or he was lodging or protest or something, concerning the forces that were

20 on Srdj, that they saw a flag with a five-pointed star and then there were

21 guns aimed at them. He said, and he said, "I personally see the guns

22 aiming at us here and the population is in panic." That's what he said.

23 And I think that there was some fire and that there were some casualties

24 among them. That's what I heard. And I remember that fragment. It

25 remained imprinted in my memory.

Page 7594

1 Q. Do you remember perhaps the time period during the course of that

2 day when you heard parts of this conversation?

3 A. Well, as I said, 9.00, 10.00, up to 12.00. I cannot say exactly.

4 But it was within that period, up to midday, roughly.

5 Q. On that day, were there any other calls that were received at the

6 operations centre in Kumbor that had to do with the situation in

7 Dubrovnik?

8 A. Yes. There was a call that surprised me greatly, and perplexed

9 me. Kadijevic called, General Kadijevic, and asked to speak to Admiral

10 Jokic. I found him. I can't remember exactly. But at any rate, I found

11 him, through the forward command post, and I put Kadijevic through. At

12 that moment, I heard part of their conversation.

13 Q. Can you tell us what it was that you heard?

14 A. I can quote it. Perhaps it's the meaning that I can convey, the

15 meaning will be conveyed completely, perhaps not the exact words.

16 Kadijevic asked Jokic -- well, now I don't know on what terms they were.

17 He said: "What are you doing down there?" Either in the singular or in

18 the plural. "What are you doing down there? Do you know what you

19 promised me when you asked to be sent down there?" As far as I can

20 remember, Jokic said, in a rather confused manner, that he was just

21 carrying out a tactical movement of units in order to correct the tactical

22 deployment of the 9th VPS. That's what it was, along those lines. And

23 then Kadijevic answered. He said: "We are making every effort here to

24 topple Tudjman, and you are carrying out some kind of minor tactical

25 movements." That is the conversation I heard, sort of. It's not a direct

Page 7595

1 quotation, but this is definitely the meaning involved.

2 Q. Did you hear this yourself?

3 A. Yes, I heard this myself. I held the receiver. I listened to the

4 conversation. I heard that part of the conversation. I don't know why.

5 Q. Tell me: Do you remember in which period of time this

6 conversation took place on the 6th of December, 1991?

7 A. Also in the morning, sometime before midday. Now was it at 10.00

8 or 11.00 or after that. But it was certainly before midday.

9 Q. Do you know where your commander, Admiral Jokic, was on that day,

10 the 6th of December, 1991?

11 A. I know that all the time he was out there in Kupari or in Cavtat.

12 After that, I know that he was supposed to go to Belgrade, and that day,

13 sometime in the afternoon - I don't know exactly at what time - he took a

14 helicopter from Cilipi to Belgrade.

15 Q. Tell me, please: Do you remember whether anyone from the

16 2nd Operational Group called the operations centre in Kumbor on that day?

17 A. As far as I can remember, no. No. Although sometimes I would go

18 out for a few minutes or so, because at that time, on that day, what was

19 characteristic for me was - and I remember this well - many families were

20 coming and asking about their belongings. Because on the previous day, a

21 ship had sunk on the previous day, and I know that some of the women were

22 fainting, because they had all their belongings on those ships, including

23 their cars and everything else. So then they would call me to the main

24 gate so that I could explain to these people what had happened to the ship

25 and things like that.

Page 7596

1 Q. Tell me, please: The operations centre of the 9th Military Naval

2 Sector in Kumbor, did it have any contacts during that period of time with

3 the command of the Military Naval District?

4 A. You mean that day? What day?

5 Q. During that period of time.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Counsel.

7 A. Yes, frequent ones.

8 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I apologise for not switching the

9 microphone on.

10 Q. But what I asked you was about this period from October to

11 December 1991, whether there were any contacts between the operations

12 centre of the 9th VPS in Kumbor and the command of the military naval

13 district.

14 A. Yes. They did have contacts, communications.

15 Q. What was the relationship between, in the military sense, of

16 course, in naval terms, the relationship between the 9th VPS and the

17 military naval district?

18 MS. SOMERS: Objection, Your Honour. That is not a matter to

19 which this witness necessarily can testify.

20 JUDGE PARKER: We'll find out.

21 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Did you hear me?

23 A. Yes, I did. We were the subordinate command to them. We were

24 subordinate to them.

25 Q. Do you know any other subordinate command to the command of the

Page 7597

1 military naval district?

2 A. I don't understand your question. I apologise.

3 Q. Apart from the command of the 9th Military Naval Sector, did the

4 military naval district have any other commands subordinated to it?

5 A. It had the fleet.

6 Q. Very well. Did it have anything else, any other commands?

7 A. I don't think so, not during that period of time. Us and the

8 fleet.

9 Q. Were there any other military naval sectors within the military

10 naval district?

11 A. Yes. There was the 8th, and Pula up there, the Pula one. That

12 might have still been there, but it had already been abandoned, so I

13 didn't count it as being under the command of the VP District. So those

14 two military naval sectors weren't ours any more, in actual fact, didn't

15 belong to us.

16 Q. All right. Tell us please: During that period of time - and I'm

17 talking about October to December 1991 - did you receive any orders from

18 the command of the military naval district at all?

19 A. You mean by December, until December. Well, I think that we did

20 receive something, an order about the relocation of units, as far as I

21 remember.

22 Q. Did you have regular communication, daily communication with the

23 command of the military naval district?

24 A. Well, practically every day, practically daily. And a helicopter

25 would fly to Vis frequently. I think that's where the command was, on the

Page 7598

1 island of Vis.

2 Q. And where was the command place of the military naval district

3 otherwise?

4 A. Usually in Split, but in this case it was moved to the island of

5 Vis.

6 Q. And with respect to the execution of orders, did you send out

7 regular information to your superior command of the 9th Military Naval

8 District -- I apologise. I meant the military naval district. Yes.

9 A. Well, it was the forward command post, and we were just there in

10 transit. We didn't deal with matters of this kind. The main command was

11 at the forward command post.

12 Q. Tell us, please, give us the location more precisely, where was

13 that, the location of the forward command post?

14 A. The forward command post was in Kupari.

15 Q. Thank you. I'd now like the witness to be shown Exhibit D96,

16 please.

17 Mr. Handzijev, would you take a look at the document, please. Can

18 you see it, what it's about, what kind of document it is? Do you see

19 that?

20 A. It's the war diary of the operations centre of the 9th VPS at the

21 IKM, or forward command post.

22 Q. Would you take a look at page 66 now, please, the upper right-hand

23 corner. You will find the number of the pages of the handwritten page.

24 Have you found that page?

25 A. [In English] Yes.

Page 7599

1 Q. Take a look on the left -- at the left column and you will see the

2 times, and this particular time I'm interested in is 1940 hours, that

3 entry.

4 A. [Interpretation] Yes.

5 Q. It is a message from the Crisis Staff of Dubrovnik to the command

6 of the VPS of Boka, asking them to confirm safe passage of the ship

7 Argos II for the talks the next day that were scheduled to take place at

8 1000 hours in Cavtat and Crisis Staff's signature.

9 A. Yes, and that's normal procedure.

10 Q. And look at the entry for 1942 hours, that is to say, two minutes

11 later. The command of the Military Naval Sector of Boka sending a message

12 to the Crisis Staff of Dubrovnik. We permit and guarantee the safe

13 passage of the ship Argos II on the 6th of December, 1991, on the route

14 between Dubrovnik harbour and Cavtat harbour and Dubrovnik harbour from

15 0900 hours until the ships arrived to the Dubrovnik harbour. The command

16 of the 9th VPS. Is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And now take a look at the far right column, where it

19 says "remarks." And here, under remarks, in the right-hand column, it

20 says: "Convey to frigate captain Handzijev." Do you remember, although a

21 lot of time has gone by since then, whether you ever received this

22 message?

23 A. Well, they are standard types of messages. I can't say that I

24 actually remember this particular one specifically, but yes, I do

25 remember, generally speaking, what was going on, and this is standard

Page 7600

1 practice. We might have had hundreds of messages like that.

2 Q. All right. But what I'm interested in is this: When you look at

3 the contents of this message at 1942 hours, as it is from the Military

4 Naval Sector of Boka, the message sent to the Dubrovnik Crisis Staff, and

5 that it was sent from the forward command post in Kupari, was it handed

6 over to you, or rather, the operations centre in Kumbor, for you to send

7 on further?

8 MS. SOMERS: [Previous translation continues]... could not

9 remember.

10 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, my question -- well, I

11 understood him to say that he didn't remember this specific message, but

12 this is a matter of the technique of sending out messages of this kind,

13 the way in which this was done, the procedure. And I just asked him how

14 it was handed further on, further down the line or up the line. If he's

15 able to say.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Well, I think he has said that he has no memory of

17 this.

18 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour. I'll move on.

19 I don't know whether it's time for us to adjourn and end the

20 proceedings for today. But at any rate, I'll complete shortly after we

21 begin tomorrow morning.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We'll adjourn now, to resume tomorrow

23 at 9.00.

24 I must ask you if you would return tomorrow morning. We will be

25 commencing again at 9.00 in the morning.

Page 7601

1 Thank you.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

3 to be reconvened on Friday, the 9th day of

4 July, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.