1 Friday, 9 July 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. I gather, Ms. Somers, there's some
6 matter to be raised.
7 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. I would like to raise what I
8 suppose is more of an administrative but really it affects the practice
10 At the beginning of the Defence case, the Prosecution indicated
11 that -- and of course the Chamber is well aware -- the arrival of
12 information about the witnesses comes extremely late, and it comes
13 sometimes hours before midnight on the day before or the night before,
14 which was the situation last night as to the witness after the current
15 witness. And I am not clear how to find a solution to it. I know that
16 the Defence also has indicated to me it is experiencing enormous time
17 pressures in the proofing process, and of course we have been receiving
18 communications from the Defence on a fairly regular basis that this is
19 what you can know so far. We have not yet proofed the witness. We'll let
20 you know if any other matters will be gone into. In fact, that makes it
21 very difficult if not impractical to prepare adequately for
22 cross-examination on hours of notice.
23 I had indicated earlier that from time to time we may be in a
24 position to we have to seek deferral on cross-examination, depending -- we
25 know almost next to nothing about the coming witness, the next witness.
1 This present one also was somewhat of a surprise, and there's an issue I'd
2 like to raise about that one as well. But this may cause a continued
3 problem in our ability to have an effective or to prepare effectively for
5 The second matter -- if the Chamber would like me to pause between
6 matters, I will do so, or if you'd like to --
7 JUDGE PARKER: No. Pour it all out.
8 MS. SOMERS: Thank you. The subject matter of the witness
9 presently on the stand was marginally -- part of it was marginally
10 approached during the examination of Admiral Jokic. The -- I seem not to
11 have this in my own folder. The page I have got -- I'm sorry, another
12 folder. But it was never put to Admiral Jokic in any specific way that a
13 particular telephone call or conversation may have occurred. We
14 believe -- we find ourselves raising the spectre of 90(H)(ii) on a regular
15 basis. We believe in this instance it is extremely poignant and at the
16 issue -- I will, at the break, if I may be permitted, present where the
17 reference was to any communications on the 6th between General Kadijevic
18 and Admiral Jokic earlier in the day. The guts of the examination now
19 focuses on an area that was not put to the admiral as one puts the case to
20 the admiral. So I want to preserve that matter for any further
21 submissions that the Prosecution may have to make. But I think the
22 Chamber should be aware of that. It was on 14 April. That much I
23 remember, and I apologise. I thought I had taken with me the particular
25 JUDGE PARKER: Now, with respect to the second matter, you say
1 that may need to be raised again later.
2 With respect to the first matter, is there any positive matter
3 that you raise, or you are you just bringing this problem to the notice of
4 the Chamber?
5 MS. SOMERS: It is altogether possible, Your Honour, after hearing
6 the testimony of today's -- the following witness, not the current one on
7 the stand, the Prosecution may need to seek additional time to prepare for
8 cross-examination. And wanted to give the Chamber notice of that in
9 advance. We are concerned about the regularised practice of getting the
10 information very, very, very late, and the generality of it and usually
11 that proofing may yield other matters of which we will at some point be
13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Is there anything, Mr. Rodic or
14 Mr. Petrovic, that you wish to say?
15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, first of all, I want
16 to point out that what my learned colleague has just said is true.
17 Unfortunately, it is true. And the reason is that the circumstances under
18 which we have been proofing our witnesses are such that we do not have
19 sufficient time to forward information on the witnesses more ahead of
21 We are doing all we can and we understand the problems faced by
22 the OTP. I do, however, wish to say that our problems are considerably
23 greater than theirs. We are doing our best, nonetheless. We are trying
24 to prepare as much information as possible for them. We are pressing on
25 ceaselessly, and whenever we receive information by fax or from our
1 investigators, we forward the information to them.
2 We submitted this set of information last night at 9.00. The
3 proofing began at 1.00 and finished at 4.00 in the afternoon. We are
4 doing our best, nevertheless; however, these are objective factors and we
5 hope we can cope with these factors to the best of our ability. Most of
6 the factual witnesses have already been examined and cross-examined
7 without any considerable problems.
8 Thank you, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. The proofing began at
11 9.00 p.m. and finished at 1.00 a.m.
12 JUDGE PARKER: That last correction only adds emphasis to the fact
13 that the proofing is being undertaken at an extremely late stage, and that
14 is a significant part of the problem. The Defence case has been in
15 preparation, no doubt, since before the commencement of the trial, and yet
16 we hear of proofing of a witness the night before. And it's not just the
17 matter of one isolated witness and a surprise issue that's necessitated
18 bringing in an additional witness. It seems to be a pattern with all
19 witnesses. We'll just have to make the best we can of it as it goes
20 along, trying to keep a fair hand between each side.
21 We'll have the witness in, then.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 JUDGE PARKER: Please be seated. If I could remind you of the
24 affirmation you took at the beginning of your evidence, which still
1 Yes, Mr. Rodic.
2 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
3 WITNESS: PETRE HANDZIJEV [Resumed]
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 Examined by Mr. Rodic: [Continued]
6 Q. [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown document D96.
7 Good morning, Mr. Handzijev. We shall proceed with our
8 examination-in-chief. You have already seen this document, and what I
9 would like you to do now is to turn to page 70. Can you please look at
10 this entry at 1349 hours. That's the column where the time is recorded,
11 1349 hours. The entry in relation to that specific time.
12 A. [In English] Yes.
13 Q. Have you read it?
14 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
15 Q. It says here that frigate Captain Handzijev was ordered to call
16 Bileca and Trebinje and to order Captain Kovacevic [as interpreted] to
17 come immediately to the forward command post of the military naval sector
19 MS. SOMERS: [Previous translation continues]... Me. I don't know
20 whether counsel said Captain Kovacevic or not, but the entry says Colonel
22 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I did say colonel. I read exactly as
23 it says here. I said colonel. I think it's probably an error in the
25 Q. Mr. Handzijev, if you remember, can you please tell us whether
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 this message or this order to you was in fact carried out.
2 A. Well, most probably it was carried out. Right now, I can't
3 remember specifically. It is a minor order, in my opinion, and was
4 probably carried out by my assistant. In any other case, I am sure the
5 command would have reacted and requested for this to be done again.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is my only
8 remaining portion of my examination-in-chief, and this concludes my
9 examination-in-chief. Thank you.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Rodic.
11 Ms. Somers.
12 MS. SOMERS: Thank you very much, Your Honours.
13 Cross-examined by Ms. Somers:
14 Q. Good morning, Mr. Handzijev.
15 A. Good morning.
16 Q. Who was the Chief of Staff in September 1991 in the 9th VPS?
17 A. As far as I know, it was Admiral Zec.
18 Q. Up until approximately 20th of September, 1991, who was the Chief
19 of Staff in the 9th VPS?
20 A. As far as I remember, it was Admiral Zec.
21 Q. Who was Admiral Zec's predecessor?
22 A. His predecessor. For a while, it was warship Captain Ivo Milisic.
23 I think that's what his name was. He came from Split.
24 Q. [Previous translation continues]... I'm not getting a translation.
25 Maybe I'm -- would you repeat that for me, please.
1 A. I think his name was Ivo Milisic.
2 Q. [Previous translation continues]... think about that for a minute.
3 How long had you been working in the 9th VPS when Ivo -- and what is -- is
4 Ivo a full name, a complete name, or does it stand for something else?
5 Ivo Milisic was the Chief of Staff.
6 A. Right now, I can't remember.
7 Q. Okay. When was the transition made between Ivo Milisic as Chief
8 of Staff and Milan Zec as Chief of Staff?
9 A. Well, most probably when he was detained. Warship Captain
10 Milisic, I mean. I can't remember.
11 Q. Most probably when he was detained.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Why was battleship Captain Milisic detained? What do you know
14 about that?
15 A. Well, since I appeared as witness at his trial and I was there for
16 the entire proceedings, I can tell you that he was detained because he
17 failed to carry out an order for mobilisation, an order given by Admiral
18 Kandic. I'm entirely familiar with this case.
19 Q. Is this the case that bears 211/91 out of the Nis military court
20 that was started in 1991 and the appeal was finished in 1992? Are we
21 talking about that case?
22 A. Well, I couldn't give you the exact numbers or the years.
23 Q. But did Captain Milisic want to stay in the JNA? Did he want to
24 remain in the JNA at the time of the occurrences you just described?
25 A. As I said, I am entirely familiar with this case, with all its
1 details. I remember it as though -- if it was yesterday. We were called
2 before the operations began and before a decision on those operations was
3 read out. We had been called, and the late battleship Captain Djurisic,
4 or Djurovic, resolutely stated: "We are now going into the room, and in
5 the room we shall hear the decision. Whoever is having second thoughts
6 should not enter the room." "Once in the room, there's no going back."
7 He said resolutely.
8 I think my rendering of how it actually happened is quite
9 accurate. And the person that we have already referred to, battleship
10 Captain Milisic, he went into the room, and thereby agreed to stay with
11 the JNA. Now, what his intentions were when he did it, that's not as
13 Q. What was his ethnicity, Captain Milisic?
14 A. He was a Croat.
15 Q. How did he feel about the possibility of mobilisation? You
16 expressed earlier how you felt about things. How did he feel about
17 things? After all, you know him very well.
18 A. I knew him really well. We're family of sorts. His wife's sister
19 is married to a close relation of my wife. But we were on visiting terms.
20 We were close. I knew what his personal position was on the matter, but I
21 believe that he may have been wrong.
22 Q. Why don't you tell us what his personal position was on the
24 A. He declared himself a Yugoslav at the time, or at least that's
25 what he told me, and I couldn't feel that he was actually keeping
1 something secret, because I trusted him very much. Maybe this was not his
2 true position, but what he told me was that he felt a Yugoslav.
3 Q. Now, the proceeding that was lodged against Captain Milisic, a
4 Croatian then Chief of Staff, involved charges of -- let's see. What were
5 the charges that were levelled against the captain?
6 A. When he received the order, I was standing a stone's throw from
7 where he was. It was in the morning that General Kandic's order arrived.
8 I was at the operational centre myself. And I heard everything that
9 Kandic was ordering him, exactly which units he was supposed to mobilise.
10 However, in the meantime, he had left for Trebinje, and the units
11 were never mobilised. There was a huge number of artillery units. When
12 our commander at the time, the person who was the commander of the 9th VPS
13 at the time, or the 9th sector, came, he was in hospital. When he was
14 back at hospital at half past 2.00 or 3.00, he called Kandic. I happen to
15 be there at that point in time.
16 Q. What were the charges that were levelled against Captain Milisic?
17 That was my question.
18 A. I can't remember very clearly what the charges were. Probably
20 Q. Probably sabotage. Any other charge?
21 A. That's what I think.
22 Q. Okay. Now, he was a good friend of yours, almost family?
23 A. Yes. That's correct. We used to see each other a lot. He would
24 come to my place or we would go to see another relative, my wife's
25 relative, that sort of thing.
1 Q. On 20th of September, 1991, did you provide information to
2 investigators of a military tribunal claiming to have listened in on a
3 telephone conversation between Admiral Kandic and the late Commander
5 A. Yes. And I was even confronted with Kandic, and Kandic's
6 statements were contradictory in court.
7 Q. And you testified before a military court in Nis? You
8 testified -- did you testify under oath? Did you give an oath when you
10 A. The procedure that applies is the same in all courts.
11 Q. You testified before a military court in Nis about the alleged
12 conversation. So you listened in to a conversation between two
13 high-ranking officers; is that correct? Is that how you gained the
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Was this while --
17 A. Yes. Yes.
18 Q. Was this while you were acting as a duty-officer in the 9th VPS?
19 Is that how you listened in to the conversation?
20 A. I can't remember clearly --
21 Q. [Previous translation continues]... you can't remember?
22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection. My
23 colleague is not allowing the witness to finish answering. Therefore, may
24 he please be allowed to finish his sentence.
25 MS. SOMERS: [Previous translation continues]...
1 JUDGE PARKER: The witness is not answering. That's the point.
2 Counsel is bringing the witness back to the question.
3 So carry on, Ms. Somers.
4 MS. SOMERS:
5 Q. Was this while you were acting as a duty-officer in the 9th VPS
6 that you overheard the conversation, was it a telephone conversation,
7 between Admiral Kandic and Commander Djurovic?
8 A. You mean Ivo Milisic?
9 Q. Did you testify about a conversation between Djurovic and Kandic,
10 or Milisic and Kandic? Do you remember?
11 A. I testified and wrote a statement prior to that with respect to
12 the conversation with Admiral Kandic and the conversation with Milisic,
13 and I also testified about what I heard. And I answered the question,
14 what I heard in connection with the conversation that was held later in
15 the afternoon hours between Captain -- warship Captain Djurovic and Tadic
16 [as interpreted]. So I answered those questions in court.
17 Q. And you were giving information -- you gave evidence against
18 Captain Milisic and you represented certain --
19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise for
20 interrupting. But on page 11, line 10, it says Tadic. The name was
22 MS. SOMERS:
23 Q. You gave evidence against Captain Milisic based on words you said
24 Admiral Kandic spoke, that you claimed to have heard Admiral Kandic speak;
25 is that right?
1 A. Well, I don't know what he said when he spoke about warship
2 Captain Milisic or when he was speaking to Djurisic, Captain Djurovic.
3 Would you please tell me that?
4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could the last
5 question be repeated. The answer is not exactly what the witness said in
6 B/C/S. So would the -- would my learned colleague repeat what she said,
7 because the witness did not say what it purports to say here on the
9 MS. SOMERS: I will repeat page 11, line 17. Question: You gave
10 evidence against Captain Milisic based on words you said Admiral Kandic
11 spoke, words that you claim to have heard Admiral Kandic speak; is that
13 A. That's right. I exactly heard what Admiral Kandic ordered warship
14 Captain Milisic to do, because I was one and a half metres away from him,
15 and the speakerphone was switched on where I was the duty-officer. So the
16 whole hall could have heard the same thing.
17 Q. And this was while you were acting as a duty-officer in your
18 official capacity in the 9th VPS; am I right on that? Did I get that
20 A. Yes, you are correct. But I can't remember whether I was handing
21 over my duty or taking over duty or whether I was just present as chief of
22 the operations centre. I can't remember. But that's not the essential
23 point. I was present, and when Kandic spoke with warship Captain Milisic,
24 I was there, and later on when Kandic phoned warship Captain Djurovic. So
25 that was 2.00 or 3.00 in the afternoon. So I heard it. I remember it and
1 can remember the actual words that were uttered at the time.
2 Q. Did your training -- first of all, did you have training as a
3 duty-officer or an operation centre officer?
4 A. During our education at the academy, we have to go through all
5 stages of training, all kinds of training and all the training for duty
6 officers. And as a cadet, I was a guard for time, then I was commander of
7 the guards. Then I was something that we call SIZ. That was duty. And
8 then further up the line. Otherwise, I personally, when I took over my
9 duties, we have to have studied all the documents regulating our service,
10 all our branches and services and guidelines and instructions, pinpointing
11 our duties. And then this is an ongoing process. We put it into
12 practice, and when our superior officer deems that we are fully fit, then
13 we can take up our duties ourselves without any supervision. So I passed
14 through this entire process.
15 Q. Now, isn't it part of training to respect the secrecy, the
16 confidentiality, the integrity of communications between officers,
17 particularly of superior rank to yourself?
18 A. I think that in moments of that kind, when faced with situations
19 of that kind, and I was the chief of the operations centre, so when I was
20 asked in court, I could not answer otherwise; otherwise, I would have
21 deviated from court principles. Because I did hear the conversation. It
22 was a public conversation. And if that warship Captain Milisic considered
23 that it was confidential or secret, then he should have found a way of
24 speaking without the rest of us hearing, just to lift up the receiver and
25 not the speakerphone.
1 Q. [Previous translation continues]... eavesdropping. Isn't that
2 what you were doing? You were eavesdropping on a conversation that was
3 not your conversation. You did not correctly have the terms of the
4 conversation, and you then went on to relay what you claimed was said in
5 the conversation. You simply eavesdropped, did you not?
6 A. I heard that conversation, and it wasn't only I who heard it, but
7 all the others who were witnesses to it. It was a public conversation.
8 The whole hall and operations centre could hear it. So when I was asked
9 in court were you present there? My answer was yes. Did you hear the
10 conversation? I said yes. Should I have said that I did not when I did?
11 Should I have said in court that I did not? What would you think of me if
12 I were to lie in this courtroom?
13 Q. Now, the charge that was levelled, one of the charges levelled
14 against Captain Milisic, the then Chief of Staff, as a result of your
15 evidence, was a charge of subversion of military and defence capacities,
16 pursuant Article 121, paragraph 1, of the Penal Code of the SFRY. Is that
17 in your view a serious charge?
18 A. That is the most serious charge, whereas I did not accuse him. I
19 just stated what I heard. And I would have felt far luckier had I not
20 heard anything. My conscience would have been clear. But what can I do?
21 I heard it and I couldn't keep it secret. I would have gladly kept it
22 secret. It would have been easier for me to do so and all my relatives
23 and friends wouldn't have spat at me. But that's the kind of man I am. I
24 can't hide anything. I don't keep anything secret because my duty
25 requires otherwise. How would courts be able to work if people hide
1 relevant information?
2 Q. Now, you remember this incident as if it were today. Do you
3 remember why the charge of subversion was dropped, was not sustained by
4 the courts? Do you remember that, as concerning any communication between
5 Admiral Kandic and Captain Milisic? Do you remember what the court said
6 about that?
7 A. I don't know. You should have -- you should ask the court. But I
8 know that he was charged and that afterwards he was sentenced to five
9 years and then replaced. He was charged -- I didn't charge him. I didn't
10 accuse him. I don't know what the court thinks. It's not my business.
11 Q. What he was convicted of ultimately was disobeying an order of
12 Admiral Djurovic, not of Admiral Kandic. Do you want to tell us why he
13 didn't disobey an order of Admiral Kandic and subvert the military in so
14 doing, as you suggested by your evidence that you gave in that court?
15 A. I am not aware of the fact that he refused to carry out Djurovic's
16 orders, and I say 100 per cent certainty that Kandic ordered him that. So
17 I don't like to lie. I don't like to fabricate things. Kandic said it
18 and it's as if it were yesterday. I remember it clearly. Kandic ordered
19 him -- it was only later that Djurovic, when he came, was informed of
20 this. Kandic called him and said, "Djuro, did you carry out that order of
21 mine?" And he said: "What order?" And he said: "What I issued -- the
22 order I issued to Ivo." And he said: "That's the first I hear of it."
23 And then Kandic said: "Oh, Djuro, your left shoe doesn't know what your
24 right shoe is doing." Those were his very words.
25 Q. Now, did you have respect for the court system of your military at
1 the time, of the JNA? Did you respect the decisions of the judges?
2 A. Of course I respected the decisions of the judges. How wouldn't
3 I? It's a ludicrous question.
4 Q. I will read and ask you if you recall, since it was like
5 yesterday -- first of all, what was your -- what is military -- Kumbor
6 military post 4004? What is that? Where is that?
7 A. At the command, with us.
8 Q. That is the same post --
9 A. I think, but I'm not quite sure. I think that's it. But I don't
10 remember those figures.
11 Q. How long --
12 A. But yes.
13 Q. Sorry to interrupt you. How long did you work -- had you been
14 working at Kumbor as of September 20, 1991?
15 A. Well, from the -- from 1980.
16 Q. And you don't recall that the post number was 4004, after 11 years
17 of service?
18 A. They're just numbers. I changed a lot of those military posts.
19 But yes, it probably was. But I'm not good at memorising figures,
20 numbers. You know, once the virus enters the head. But yes, it was
21 probably that post. I was -- had more connections with the command rather
22 than the military post, so when I wrote orders or reports, I would title
23 them "the command of the 9th VPS." So that was the important thing. I
24 suppose it was our military post, but I don't see that it's essential what
25 the figures actually were.
1 Q. From the judgement of 30 March 1992 from the military court in
2 Nis, it is above all necessary to point out that at the trial it was
3 established on the basis of an analysis and assessment of navy command
4 report 32-64, on 25 March 1992, and the report of the command of the
5 Kumbor military post 4004, number 39-55-2 of 20 March 1992. It was
6 established that in the said commands, there are no written or other
7 traces of proof or the content of the telephone conversation conducted on
8 20 September 1991 between the witness Mile Kandic and the accused, the
9 accused being Ivan or Ivo Milisic.
10 In connection with this fact, the commander of the superior unit,
11 the Split military post 5437, witness Mile Kandic said at the trial that
12 he had not ordered the accused to mobilise units. On the other hand,
13 witness Dusko Knezevic said that at the end of the telephone conversation
14 with the accused, witness Mile Kandic told the accused to additionally
15 mobilise other units. Witness Petre Handzijev said that he heard the
16 telephone conversation conducted by witness Mile Kandic and witness Krsto
17 Djurovic in the afternoon of 20 September 1991 and that witness Kandic
18 asked Djurovic whether mobilisation had been carried out, to which
19 Djurovic replied that he had taken measures but that his order had not
20 been relayed to him and that witness Mile Kandic replied that he had
21 issued the order or relayed it to Ivo during the morning.
22 Finally, witness Krsto Djurovic said that around 1900 hours on
23 20 September 1991 he telephoned his commander witness Mile Kandic in
24 connection with the need to mobilise units and that witness Kandic
25 replied: "Didn't your deputy relay to you that I issued an order to you
1 to mobilise everyone?" Witness Djurovic claims that according to what
2 witness Mile Kandic told him, the accused received a mobilisation order
3 from witness Mile Kandic.
4 With respect to the situation described in existing evidence, and
5 there is no other evidence, the court found that there was no reliable
6 evidence that witness Mile Kandic ordered the accused Milisic to mobilise
7 units because witness Kandic asserts categorically that he did not issue
8 such an order to the accused, and he certainly is the one who knows this
9 best. And with respect to this fact, he is the only authentic and direct
10 witness, while all the other witnesses are not direct witness and have
11 testified about what they heard from a telephone conversation between
12 witness Mile Kandic and the accused. Knezevic, that is, from the
13 telephone conversation between witness Mile Kandic and witness Krsto
14 Djurovic, witness Handzijev and Djurovic.
15 In view of this conclusion reached by the court with respect to
16 the fact that there is no proof that witness Mile Kandic ordered the
17 accused to mobilise units, it is clear that the court -- well, it goes on
18 to talk about the description, et cetera, et cetera.
19 What is important is that at the end of it, the very serious
20 charge of subverting the JNA was not sustained because the evidence was
21 not there.
22 Now, if Krsto Djurovic issued an order the next day, which
23 apparently was the next day, not the same day, as you suggested,
24 disobeying an order of Djurovic was punished. But there was never,
25 according to the court that you respect, an order by Kandic, and Kandic
1 himself had the opportunity to come to court and say it didn't happen.
2 Did you ever apologise to Milisic for what you said or did?
3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I object to this
4 course of the cross-examination.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't mind.
6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I?
7 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] If my learned colleague, and of
9 course she has the right to bring into question the witness's credibility
10 if she wishes to impeach him by indicating the differences between what he
11 said here in Court or what he said before the military court, then the
12 proper course, as I understand it, would be to present him with his
13 witness statement, the one he gave before the military court. But doing
14 it this way, to challenge this by juxtaposing the conclusions of a trial
15 chamber which had evidence and exhibits before them - who knows which
16 kind - with what the witness ought to have said or might have said, is
17 quite inappropriate. So if we have the transcript of this witness, then I
18 think he ought to be shown the transcript and that the examination should
19 be conducted on the basis of that transcript and his statements, and then
20 the Trial Chamber can draw their conclusions on the basis of all those
21 facts. Whereas if we just hear the judgement and we don't know the
22 reasons stated, I don't think we can continue in this way.
23 Thank you, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic. There would normally be
25 much in what you say, but in this case the witness has had no difficulty
1 saying what evidence he did give and that the charge, or one of the
2 charges, the critical charge, was based upon that evidence. And we will
3 no doubt receive a copy of the decision of the court, but it has been read
4 to the witness, in which it is clear that the person whom the witness said
5 gave the order, gave evidence to the court that he did not give that order
6 in that conversation, and the court therefore accepted that evidence and
7 preferred that over the evidence of the present witness. Surely all that
8 has been established without controversy or uncertainty. Just what, if
9 anything, this Tribunal might make of that is yet a different question.
10 But the basic facts appear in this case to be not disputed, and therefore,
11 what has occurred is one to which I think no valid objection can be made,
12 subject, of course, to us receiving the actual authenticated decision at
13 an appropriate time.
14 MS. SOMERS:
15 Q. Did you ever offer an apology to Captain Milisic?
16 A. Please, may I be allowed to explain? Since you've been doing so
17 much reading --
18 Q. [Previous translation continues]... apology?
19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, please might the
20 witness be allowed --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You have asked me a great number of
22 things. Now, you give me a chance to explain and listen to me for a
24 JUDGE PARKER: If you would just listen to the questions put to
25 you and answer those questions. A little later, you can be asked again
1 about this by the other counsel, and if you have further explanations that
2 you want to give, you will be able to give them. So don't be disturbed
3 that you are being gagged and precluded from giving your view. But it
4 will be up to counsel for the Defence whether it wants to pursue the
5 matter further with you. Now, if you would listen to the questions being
6 put to you and try and answer those questions and not anything else.
7 Thank you.
8 MS. SOMERS:
9 Q. Did you ever offer an apology to Captain Milisic?
10 A. I'm happy to have you ask that question. I did not offer an
11 apology, but, you see, there's always some justice, and the truth and
12 justice will win out. A month ago, or perhaps two months ago, my wife's
13 cousin from Kula came to Split. He's in Pula. He came to Tivat,
14 actually, and he came to see us, not to me personally, but -- because I
15 live with a cousin of mine. So he was there accommodated for three days,
16 living with us.
17 Q. [Previous translation continues]... want to talk about matters.
18 My question was: Did you ever offer an apology to Captain Milisic? It is
19 a very simple question. A yes or a no.
20 JUDGE PARKER: And the answer has been given. No. If you want to
21 explore it further with questions, do so.
22 MS. SOMERS: I do not.
23 JUDGE PARKER: If not, move on.
24 MS. SOMERS:
25 Q. Did you ever --
1 A. Please may I be allowed to finish.
2 JUDGE PARKER: [Previous translation continues]... question, no.
3 MS. SOMERS: Thank you very much.
4 JUDGE PARKER: It will be up to --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But Your Honours, the first thing
6 I'm going to say is important. Milisic sent greetings via this man and
7 said, "Veso, tell Pere that I'm not angry at him at all." The man is
8 alive, so you can ask him. And he said to him, "Pere, I'm not angry with
9 him at all." So that answers you.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Well, I'm glad you've managed to get that off your
12 MS. SOMERS: Thank you very much, Mr. Handzijev.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I'm even more thankful for
15 MS. SOMERS:
16 Q. Yesterday you were asked about subordination to the military naval
17 district. I would ask the usher, please, to show D44, please, if I may.
18 The exhibit before you is an exhibit that the Defence has offered to this
19 Court, and I would ask you to take a look at the information in it and
20 particularly turn your attention to page 2 in your language, or in --
21 maybe it's not in your language, in B/C/S. Page 2, point D.
22 A. I've found it, yes. I didn't think I had it, but I've found it,
24 Q. Okay. Could you please be good enough to read that out loud, if
25 you don't mind.
1 A. You mean B?
2 Q. No. I mean D, as in Don.
3 A. Oh, D. I see it, right. The 9th VPS with the 4th Battalion of
4 the 472nd Motorised Brigade will use land forces in coordinated action
5 with the Titograd TO Brigade to defeat enemy forces and take control of
6 Prevlaka and will use sea forces to control entry to the Bay of Kotor. It
7 will prevent the enemy from manoeuvring or operating and will provide
8 naval artillery support to land forces and is to be in a state of
9 readiness to conduct a seaborne landing if the need arises.
10 Q. And could you look at the very end of this document and indicate,
11 please, whose signature is on that, where it comes from, what formation it
12 comes from.
13 A. The 2nd Operational Group, Lieutenant Colonel General Jevrem
15 Q. Had you ever had dealings with Colonel General Cokic? Did you
16 know who he was?
17 A. Well, I don't think I had any dealings with him. I remember him.
18 But I don't remember having had any dealings with him.
19 Q. Do you remember what happened to Captain Djurisic -- Djurovic,
20 excuse me. I beg your pardon. Djurovic.
21 A. When warship Captain Djurovic was hit, the helicopter, at that
22 time I was near the area. I was around the village of Komi [as
23 interpreted] on the road to Cilipi, and I was there with the chief of
24 artillery and another man, a reservist. That's where we were. I was
25 free, so I decided to go and take a look at what was happening over there,
1 the situation over there.
2 Q. Did you come to learn about -- when you say I decided to take a
3 look at what was happening over there, were you referring to the incident
4 with the helicopter?
5 A. I was at that position before the helicopter arrived. We saw the
6 helicopter when it was flying towards the Konavle ridge. That's the name
7 of the area. And we saw him make a circle, and suddenly we couldn't hear
8 the sound of the helicopter any more. He went round Cilipi and returned
9 to the village of Komaja where there was operations going on. Suddenly we
10 didn't hear any noise, any -- the noise of the helicopter, and later we
11 learnt that the helicopter had been hit and that Cokic was in it, it
12 appeared, and that the helicopter was hit and that that's when our
13 commander was killed.
14 Q. So you knew of Colonel General Cokic. You knew that he was in the
15 helicopter, you knew that he was a player in theatre? Just yes or no.
16 A. Well, yes. But I learnt later on that he offered Captain --
17 warship Captain Djurovic to go with him, but I didn't know while he was
18 actually flying. We didn't know who was in the helicopter when it was up
19 in the area. This is something that we learnt later on.
20 Q. Had you familiarised yourself, as an operations officer, had you
21 familiarised yourself with this document which is labelled D44 at the
23 A. Well, let me tell you. Maybe I saw it, maybe I didn't see it.
24 These are not my documents. These are documents of the command. I don't
25 remember. These are documents that higher authorities, higher commands,
2 MS. SOMERS: If you would be good enough to show P119 and P121,
3 please. I think if we look at the document, dated the - let's see -
4 24th -- 23rd of October. I think that's P121, if I am not wrong. I'm
5 sorry. P119 is dated 24th of October. And if you look at -- well, we've
6 got two.
7 Q. Would you look at P121. I know it's funny that they have opposite
8 higher numbers. But P121 first and then P119.
9 Mr. Handzijev, do you have in front of you P121, which is an order
10 dated 23rd of October, 1991? It is addressed to the command of the
11 9th VPS and the 472nd Motorised Brigade. Do you see that? Do you see
13 A. I see it just fine.
14 Q. And it's a -- it's basically a combat order. And whose signature
15 or whose name is at the bottom of the order, if you can see, please?
16 A. Major General Pavle Strugar.
17 Q. Did you familiarise yourself at the time with this order? Were
18 you at Kumbor during this time, 23 October 1991?
19 A. I was in Kumbor. But as for this document, I'm not the person to
20 whom this document is submitted. It can be seen very nicely here. I am
21 the operations centre, so such orders are not given to me. There's no
22 need to give them to me.
23 Q. You are an operations centre officer; is that right? You were at
24 the time. Excuse me.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Are you indicating to us that one of your functions is not the
2 transmittal of orders and other vital information from the theatre of
4 A. That is transmitted to my superior. And now the superior does
5 familiarise us with certain things, as he deems necessary. But the
6 service that I performed in peacetime, as a duty-officer, well, that's a
7 different question altogether. I have my immediate superior officer.
8 Q. Now, on the 23rd of October the activity discussed is not activity
9 of peacetime. Are you saying you did not familiarise yourself with this
10 particular -- the content of this document and/or this document?
11 A. I was not familiar with this document.
12 Q. Would you please, Madam Usher, show P, I believe it is 119, which
13 is the second document, dated 24 October.
14 Now, this document is addressed -- it is from the command of the
15 2nd Operational Group, addressed to the 2nd Corps, the 37th Corps, the
16 9th VPS, and the 472nd Motorised Brigade. It's a decision for further
17 action. And could you tell us, please: At the end of the document
18 under -- whose name appears at the end of the document?
19 A. Again, General Pavle Strugar.
20 Q. At the time - the time being 24 October 1991 - had you
21 familiarised yourself with this document that was addressed to your
22 formation, the 9th VPS?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Thank you. Now, you were asked a question by counsel referring to
25 a matter in the war diary, which is D96, the war diary for Kupari. I
1 would like to ask you, though: Where is the war diary, or the log, which
2 you indicate was required to have been kept, for your operations centre?
3 A. I did not quite understand. Where it was or where it is now?
4 Q. [Previous translation continues]... now?
5 A. I have no idea. I've been a pensioner since 2000. It has to be
6 in archives. This is a lasting document. It has to be in the archives of
7 the 9th VPS.
8 Q. When you became aware that you would be giving evidence before
9 this Tribunal, did you attempt to familiarise yourself with the events
10 over which you would have responsibility for documenting by seeking the
11 log for your formation? I'm sorry. For your operations centre. Excuse
13 A. I was informed that this logbook went missing.
14 Q. Who informed you of that?
15 A. My judge, Mr. Rodic.
16 Q. And went missing. Where should it have been that it went missing?
17 What were you told about that?
18 A. Well, when I was made this offer to testify, the first thing that
19 crossed my mind was that logbook, because everything is regulated in that
20 logbook, everything is written in that logbook. So every order, every
21 contact, the main things that happened. So the first thing that crossed
22 my mind was the logbook.
23 As a matter of fact, when Mr. Rodic and I talked, he said, "No
24 problem. I'll go to the archives to look for the logbook." Or rather, I
25 said that I would go to the archives to look this up in the logbook, and
1 he said, "Don't bother. It's not there."
2 Q. Did you try to go anyway?
3 A. I didn't. I didn't. I mean, I believed him. To tell you the
4 truth, I didn't have the time to either.
5 Q. And when was it that you were invited to testify? I'm sorry. I
6 think you said, "When I was made this offer to testify," on page 27,
7 line 5. When was that offer to testify made?
8 A. Well, just let me think. I don't know exactly. Mr. Rodic will
9 know. Was it 15 or 20 days before I came here? I think, around that
11 Q. Now, without giving details, I don't want to intrude on your
12 privacy, but could you tell us what city you live in now and what republic
13 where you're currently residing, just generally. Not street or anything
14 like that.
15 A. Well, I live in the small town of Tivat, in Montenegro.
16 Q. Now, Kumbor, where your command post was during the time that
17 we're discussing, in which republic is Kumbor?
18 A. Also in Montenegro.
19 Q. And in which republic is Kupari?
20 A. In Croatia.
21 Q. And in which republic is Trebinje?
22 A. Republika Srpska.
23 Q. Which is part of Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?
24 A. Well, most probably. I think so, yes.
25 Q. Would you describe for us, please: Did you work in shifts in the
1 operations centre? Give us an idea of what your -- how your work
2 logistically was. Did you work shifts? Were they regular? Were they
3 day, night, alternated? Help us out with that, please.
4 A. Well, we worked in shifts, for the most part. That's right. For
5 example, I would be there until 1.00 as the operations officer, the
6 professional. So there were mainly people coming from the rear or from
7 the command, and then there was this list of duty officers, and they were
8 sort of assistants and they were there from midnight until the morning.
9 That's how they were on duty.
10 Q. What was your duty shift 5 December 1991? What shift did you work
11 on the 5th of December, 1991?
12 A. I don't know whether I was on duty on the 5th of December or
13 whether I was on duty on the 6th of December, I think. In view of the war
14 logbook, Kozaric told me to look for Colonel Kovacevic, so that's probably
15 when I was on duty. And if the war logbook were here, I would have
16 certainly been able to find this, when I was on duty.
17 Q. So your only recollection of anything about the 6th would have
18 been what was in the war logbook?
19 A. Well, that document would be sufficient to remind me that I was
20 working on that day. But that doesn't matter, because as duty-officer at
21 the operations centre, it was my duty to be present at the centre every
22 day. And actually, this duty was only formally in shifts. We were
23 supposed to work together, not even two people were sufficient. We would
24 get reinforcements. We had two men there in addition. So it doesn't
25 matter whether I was on duty or not. I was there non-stop practically.
1 Only sometimes I'd go out on a particular task or whatever, but ...
2 Q. So on the 5th of December, were you in the operations room,
3 hearing transmissions, receiving telephone calls, doing what operations
4 officers are known to do?
5 A. I've said that we were permanently there and that we complemented
6 each other. And it was in this entire period. There were four
7 professionals, four of us were professionals. And I said very nicely
8 yesterday: We had a hundred tasks, and I was personally sought by the
9 mothers, because I was well known throughout the former Yugoslavia. They
10 were looking for me personally because I was the most persistent person in
11 this respect. I was looking for their sons, and I was trying to establish
12 telephone contact for them. So I don't know how the word spread, but they
13 were looking for me personally.
14 Q. Thank you. On the 5th of December, what calls, what messages,
15 what information did you take down, receive, and transmit? Can you tell
16 us that, please?
17 A. I cannot remember. You just have to remind me with something. I
18 can't really say anything just off the cuff.
19 Q. What about on the 4th of December? What information, messages,
20 phone calls did you receive?
21 A. I don't remember. I don't remember now. But if you were to show
22 me a document, perhaps it would remind me. Of course I received messages.
23 We received different messages.
24 Q. And on the 7th of December, 1991, what messages, phone calls,
25 information did you receive and transmit?
1 A. What do you mean specifically? Well, different information,
2 different messages. A hundred telephone calls a day. I can't remember
3 exactly what you mean -- I mean what you're interested in.
4 Q. What happened in the Dubrovnik area on the 6th of December? Tell
5 us your understanding of what happened, please.
6 A. This is my prism. First of all, you've reminded me just now when
7 you said what happened. I know what happened. There were preparations
8 for negotiations. I personally, as a human being, was most pleased. I
9 mean, I'd been wearing boots for a year, wouldn't take them off. So when
10 I heard about this, I mean I remember these messages that this boat was
11 supposed to come from Split, or rather, this minister was supposed to come
12 for these negotiations in Cavtat. So I was really pleased about that.
13 But then on the 6th, on the 6th I was really surprised, I mean surprised.
14 This optimism of mine became pessimism.
15 The negotiations were gladly expected. But what happened,
16 happened. There were people dead, dead on both sides, in fact. And as I
17 said yesterday, I listened to a conversation. I don't know who Rudolf was
18 talking to. He probably used Radio Dubrovnik, Radio Bar, that connection,
19 communication line, and then our operations centre. I wasn't there, but I
20 did -- when I came in, I realised that something was happening, and I know
21 that Rudolf was in a panic and he was saying that that whole old nucleus
22 was on fire. There's general panic. There are people dead. And I was
23 surprised. We were just caught out. So perhaps that's what you referred
24 to. This was from 9.00 onwards. I don't know the exact time.
25 Q. Can I ask you.: You said the whole old nucleus was on fire. What
1 were you referring to, or what was he referring to, as you understood it?
2 A. Well, the Old Town. That's what I understood him to mean. And
3 sometimes this was used for propaganda purposes, this whole sort of panic.
4 So I wasn't sure whether it was propaganda or whether it was true, whether
5 it was true or not. Now, if something is really on fire, you can't hide
6 that, and of course the European Mission was there and the observers were
7 there observing. So quite simply, to be quite frank, I expected peace and
8 I became very pessimistic because I wasn't expecting war.
9 Q. Let me ask you --
10 A. That 6th.
11 Q. You just told us that sometimes this was used for propaganda
12 purposes, this whole sort of panic. Now, when a call comes in to you
13 which tells you that the Old Town of Dubrovnik is on fire, whether you
14 subjectively believe it is true or not, what do you do about it? I mean,
15 just in case it's true, what do you do about it? What is your course of
17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that was not the
18 witness's statement, that he was called, as we all remember. He listened
19 to the conversation between Rudolf and someone else. He's not the one who
20 was called by Rudolf. So could the witness's evidence please be followed
22 MS. SOMERS: Shall I rephrase it to say that the conversation on
23 which you eavesdropped, in which you gained information that the Old Town
24 of Dubrovnik was on fire, now, what did you do about it? Did you pretend
25 not to hear the conversation because you were eavesdropping or did you
1 decide that you should take some action? Tell us what you did about it.
2 A. Well, this part of the conversation, I think it was the end of the
3 conversation. I cannot tell you exactly whether he talked to Jokic or
4 Jeremic, because Jeremic was liaison officer on our side with the European
5 Mission. And at any rate, all these protests went through Jeremic. I
6 cannot say anything for sure now. I don't know whether at that moment I
7 was at the operations centre listening to something else, but I walked in
8 and I heard Rudolf panic-stricken. I didn't even know it was Rudolf, you
9 see. It was only later that my assistant who was there who had turned
10 this on -- I mean, he's the one who establishes this communication. I
11 mean, it's only later that I found out that this was Rudolf. I heard that
12 there was a fire, that there were dead people. And then there is the
13 five-pointed star up there, soldiers, barrels pointing at town. That's
14 what I heard. And now what did I do? I mean, as a professional soldier,
15 first I have to see whether it is correct, whether it is propaganda. But
16 later on, when I found out that there were some actions taking place there
17 and that the members of the ZNG were firing from Dubrovnik, that is the
18 information I received, that they were opening mortar fire and this --
19 these -- with the PAM guns, 20-, 30-millimetres, and they were firing at
20 our forces that were on Srdj. We were nearby. I mean --
21 Q. What did you do about it?
22 A. What could I do about it? I mean, I'm not somebody who can do
23 something about it. I mean, in the meantime -- actually, I don't know how
24 much time had elapsed, but then Kadijevic called. I don't know if it was
25 an hour later or whatever. But at any rate, it was all up to midday.
1 Q. Did you --
2 A. Then --
3 Q. Excuse me for cutting you off. Did you, as the operations officer
4 on duty, did you inform your superiors of the content of the call which
5 you had overheard about what Mr. Rudolf said was happening in Dubrovnik?
6 Yes or no.
7 A. I mean, I -- well, this was just a transit conversation, this
8 conversation about the cease-fire. I mean, who could I tell about this?
9 Our command had probably received this already. It can only be sent to
10 them. So then if Rudolf went -- well, I can't remember now who it was, I
11 mean who this assistant of mine was. It was Radio Dubrovnik, Radio Bar.
12 And Radio Bar, in our case --
13 Q. Did you inform your superiors about the content of the call that
14 you were listening to, to the effect that Dubrovnik was on fire? Yes or
16 A. My superiors were all at the forward command post, so we were just
17 transit. This was transit communication. And my superior officers were
18 probably already listening to all of this there at the forward command
20 Q. And did you confirm with the forward command post that your
21 superior officers were indeed there? Did you do what you were supposed to
22 do and confirm that and transit the information?
23 A. I mean, I heard this, but he had already been put through, and
24 they listened to that. My superiors heard that. And at that moment, we
25 found out that there was fighting there at Srdj, that our people were up
1 there, Zec and the commander, that they were all in the area and there's
2 nothing for us to confirm. I mean, we're there just to transit to the
3 command -- I mean, unless we were given a direct order to convey something
4 to them.
5 Q. If the missing log from your operations centre should ever
6 surface, will we find an entry in there by you as to this conversation
7 that you overheard by a man who was identified to you, you say later, as
8 Mr. Rudolf, about Dubrovnik and the Old Town being on fire? Will we find
9 that entry there?
10 A. I don't know. I mean, I'm not sure. I mean I cannot say anything
11 with certainty.
12 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, would this be a convenient time for a
13 break? I'd like to get my voice back.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, it certainly would be.
15 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.
16 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Somers.
18 MS. SOMERS: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
19 Q. Mr. Handzijev, you had told us just before the break in response
20 to my question about: Did you confirm with the forward command post that
21 your superior officers were indeed there? You said: "My superiors heard
22 that. And at that moment, we found out that there was fighting there at
23 Srdj, that our people were up there, Zec and the commander, that they were
24 all in the area, and there's nothing for us to confirm. I mean, we're
25 just there to transit to the command."
1 Now, Zec and the commander. Whom did you mean? Zec we know.
2 Which commander were you referring to?
3 A. I meant the commander who was there at the forward command post of
4 the 9th VPS, the forces that were engaged in fighting. That was Admiral
5 Jokic. Jokic and Zec were there, and we had been informed.
6 Q. I'm sorry. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you. Jokic was where?
7 Where was Jokic?
8 A. Jokic, according to my information, was in the area now, the
9 forward command post or in Cavtat. I don't know. But he was in the area.
10 Right now, I can't remember his exact whereabouts at the time. That area
11 was always the same thing for me, the forward command post, Cavtat. He
12 was somewhere in that area.
13 Q. Now, you are aware, then, at this point, from what we're seeing as
14 of the time of this message coming in, that there is combat going on, that
15 units of the 9th VPS are involved, and that when you refer to fighting at
16 Srdj, then these units are involved in that fighting. Do we understand
17 each other on that point?
18 A. I don't think I understand your question.
19 Q. You mentioned that Srdj had some fighting on it. You said: "My
20 superiors heard that, and at the moment we found out there was fighting
21 there at Srdj, that our people were up there, Zec and the commander."
22 So we understand each other in that some officers who were -- some
23 persons who were part of the 9th VPS were at Srdj, and -- as you
24 understand it, and that there was combat activity going on? Can we start
25 from that point? Is that correct?
1 A. Well, that's not quite right. I didn't say that the officer had
2 gone to Srdj or anywhere. I didn't know where they were, whether on
3 Srdj -- I didn't know where they were. I knew that they were in the
4 area, but I didn't know exactly where the commander Admiral Jokic, Admiral
5 Zec. I'm not sure where they were, the forward command post or somewhere
6 near, maybe en route. We simply didn't have that kind of information.
7 I'm not sure if you understand me.
8 Q. Well, I'm going to try. Now, who is Gavro Kovacevic, Colonel
9 Gavro Kovacevic? Do you know who that was, is?
10 A. Gavro Kovacevic was the assistant commander for the land forces or
11 for the infantry. He is a colonel by rank, and he was supposed to be also
12 at the forward command post at that point in time. So according to the
13 dispatch that I received, I was supposed to call him, but he was not
14 present there, and his presence was needed, because they were looking for
15 him urgently. Probably something to do with the equipment. I'm not sure
16 why they were looking for him, but most probably that was the reason, and
17 most probably we eventually found him. I just can't remember whether we
18 did or not. We probably found him. But since it was urgent and since he
19 was needed, we probably found him.
20 Q. Now what. Many now, the order -- I'm sorry, but the transmission
21 you referred to, I guess, is the one that was read to you this morning on
22 page 70 of the Kupari log, at 1349, where it says: Frigate Captain
23 Handzijev was ordered to call Bileca and Trebinje and to immediately order
24 Colonel Kovacevic to come to the IKM KVPS."
25 Now, was it your understanding that if you were to call Bileca and
1 Trebinje that -- to get Colonel Kovacevic, that he was in that area?
2 Would that have been your understanding?
3 A. Well, my understanding -- what you're asking me about, they knew
4 approximately at the forward command post, they knew where Kovacevic was,
5 since they ordered me to find him in Trebinje or Bileca. So they knew.
6 He's their own man, and he worked with them at that command.
7 Q. Now, which command --
8 A. They knew at every single point in time Kovacevic's whereabouts.
9 Q. Now what is in Trebinje, Bileca? Why would you be -- what would
10 you communicate with in Trebinje and Bileca? Is there an operations
11 centre there that you can tell us about?
12 A. As far as I know exactly what there was at Trebinje, there was the
13 command of the 2nd Operational Group at Trebinje. Now, as for Bileca, I
14 can't quite remember.
15 Q. Now, do you remember, once you got this -- if your memory is
16 jogged and you say this is what refreshes your memory on this, when you
17 got this order, did you call the command post or the command operations
18 centre at the command post at the 2nd Operational Group to track down
19 Colonel Kovacevic and indicate that he was to come to the forward command
20 post at Kupari?
21 A. I personally don't remember this bit of information, because this
22 very task is a task that I charged my assistant with. I may have left
23 later on. I may have been absent from there. But for me, this order is a
24 minor one. Therefore, I did not attach great importance to it. Our
25 assistant probably sent it on or informed someone. But we had a direct
1 communication line with Trebinje. It would have been enough for me to
2 press a button for the protected channel or for the open channel, public
3 channel. It was a direct link. If you want me to, I'll explain exactly
4 how this worked, this line of communication.
5 Q. Why don't you tell us how you communicated directly with the
6 2nd --
7 A. [Previous translations continues]... that switchboard that we had,
8 for example, it was like a small switchboard for communications. We had
9 over ten direct links on two channels; a protected channel and an ordinary
11 Now, on that line, we had first the General Staff, the cabinet,
12 the direct line and the ordinary line. We had the operations centre of
13 the General Staff also on both lines. Then we also had the navy
14 administration also on both lines. We had the main units. And as for
15 civilian bodies, we had the air traffic control at Tivat. We had
16 Radio Bar, a direct link. They had to call us. We had frequent
17 communications from the Main Staff, incoming communications, over the
18 radio, and Radio Bar they only had to press a button and they would engage
19 us. And then I had a line with the commander, with Jokic, a direct link.
20 That's as far as the commands are concerned. I had one with the forward
21 command post, a direct link, both protected and open. And this worked
22 well. I could have put anyone through to anyone else. And then there was
23 a civilian number, and they could have called me while I was manning the
24 switchboard, and I could have held conference calls with all these
25 participants. I'm not sure if you get my meaning. So it was like a small
1 switchboard that we had there. I just needed to press a button for the
2 2nd Operational Group and I would have been put through.
3 Q. And did you -- on a regular basis push that button for the
4 2nd Operational Group and keep them informed of matters that were
5 relevant, matters that should go to their attention? I would assume you
6 would have done that as a good operations officer wouldn't you?
7 A. Well, you know something. When there was something important for
8 them, yes, we would do that. But it was only rarely that my operational
9 centre got in touch with them. There was no need for us to get in touch
10 with them. Perhaps on a couple of occasions. That was perhaps some
11 information that was relevant to them. Not that operational centre, but
12 with my forward command post, we had a line that was open almost all the
14 Q. But you would be able, from what I understand, with this
15 sophisticated switchboard you described, you would be able to communicate
16 matters that you thought were important and that you should pass up to
17 Kupari and the 2nd Operational Group and pretty much -- and Main Staff? I
18 mean, you had direct access to all. Now, let me ask -- did I understand
19 you correctly on that?
20 A. Well, we didn't -- let me tell you. We were not a relevant factor
21 in terms of conveying information. We were some sort of transit, transit,
22 you understand. If there was information travelling through our transit,
23 it was like registering things in the logbook. It was some sort of a
24 transit. I would just convey these things. And the end user would then
25 make entries in their own logbook. We were just transit. We were
1 switchboard and people were conveying hundreds and thousands of calls and
2 messages through us, individuals, in terms of providing security for
3 materiel, in terms of relocation. We would just put people through to one
4 another and then information itself would travel on.
5 Q. Now, in terms of information you might consider important, if, for
6 example, I mean, God forbid, but let's say Admiral Jokic had been in an
7 auto accident or something and someone contacted your command post that
8 they needed to get an emergency vehicle to render assistance, would you
9 pass that information on to the relevant superior commands? Would you
10 deem that important information, if a commander of your unit -- I mean,
11 I'm giving you an example, but just as a type of information that might
12 get passed up.
13 A. I'd forward it to the VPO and then on to the General Staff. If
14 there's something that happens to a commander, then you would need to
15 inform the operations centre of the General Staff and the VPO, because
16 that was our first superior command. But we also informed the General
17 Staff about these things, or the forward command post. If they had not
18 been informed, then they, in their own report -- because we were not the
19 ones writing the report. They were the ones writing the report to the
20 command. And we were some sort of supplement there, in a manner of
21 speaking. We were more into peacetime affairs.
22 Q. If we accept that there were combat activities going on in the
23 area of Srdj and that the order to you was to get Captain -- I'm sorry,
24 Colonel Kovacevic back to the forward command post at Kupari, did you
25 link -- sorry. Did you view returning -- I'm sorry. Let me rephrase
1 that. I want to make sure I don't give you the wrong question.
2 Captain -- Colonel Kovacevic was, to your knowledge, also involved
3 that day in the activities that were taking place up on Srdj? Do you know
4 that or not?
5 A. I didn't know that. I didn't know about those operations at all.
6 I found out by accident after I'd heard that conversation. And then,
7 after that, when the chief of General Staff called. It was only then that
8 I found out, at 10.00 or 11.00, I found out that something had been going
9 on over there. It was only then that I found out about those operations,
10 that one of our units had moved on Srdj. That was the information, and I
11 put two and two together. And then later you do find out, because you
12 know we had people coming to the forward command post and people talk.
13 They exchange information. But it's been many years since and I'm not
14 sure exactly how it happened, but we did know that there had been
15 casualties in town and up there also, and that things were on fire. It
16 was no secret.
17 Q. [Previous translation continues]... said came from the chief of
18 the General Staff. You said it was around 10.00 or 11.00. You give it
19 that time frame. Can you be -- can you commit to that time frame?
20 A. No. No. I didn't say I said -- before midday. I'm not sure in
21 terms of time. I can't be very resolute about this. The time period --
22 there were so many things happening. At that time I really can't give you
23 the exact time.
24 Q. [Previous translation continues]... ever surfaces, are we going to
25 find an entry in the logbook by you about a phone call like this?
1 A. There may be one there, but maybe not. It was also a transit
2 call. I'm not saying anything. There may be something. But, for
3 example, if the chief of General Staff had called Jokic, this was a
4 possibility, but it doesn't mean that it necessarily happened. It was
5 just transit.
6 When I received the call from that first person, I wasn't there at
7 the time. I mean, I was around there, but when the General Staff calls,
8 apart from the sound signal, you have a light beaming and it shows exactly
9 who's calling. And when the General Staff is calling, then the most
10 senior person answers the call. I jumped up immediately. I pressed a
11 button. And there you have it. I answered the call.
12 Q. [Previous translation continues]... did you jump up because it was
13 an important person you believed to be on the other end of the line?
14 A. Well, as soon as it's the General Staff and not the operations
15 centre, it means someone from the General Staff, and the General Staff,
16 well, the person who most often called was Admiral Brovet. He called
17 quite often. Sometimes he even called about some things -- some things
18 that should be conveyed or perhaps warnings that he had for us.
19 Q. My question to you is: Did you jump up when you saw the light
20 because it was an important person on the other end of the line?
21 A. Well, no. I think I can't remember exactly how it was. But I
22 know that, for example, someone said: General Staff on the line. The
23 assistant who is there or perhaps talking elsewhere to someone. There are
24 several lines of communication next to the switchboard. There are two
25 telephones. So all in all, I know -- well, I don't know exactly how it
1 was. It wasn't yesterday, after all. But I know that when the General
2 Staff calls, all in all, I personally picked up the phone.
3 Q. Now --
4 A. Or answered that call. That much is certain.
5 Q. A call from the General Staff -- you described, for example, the
6 order to go and find Colonel Kovacevic as minor, in your eyes. That minor
7 point made it into -- that minor point, as you see from the papers in
8 front of you, did make it into the logbook for Kupari. Were you able, in
9 reviewing -- did you review this logbook in its entirety, this Kupari
10 section that was -- you've been asked about? Did you review it?
11 A. Yes, I reviewed it in relation to the dates about the 6th. But as
12 for anything else -- that order, you know, it must be written down. But
13 this is just transit. You know what I mean when I say "transit." The
14 person who -- over there who -- well, they can write it.
15 Q. Right. Now, a minor -- something that's minor, in your eyes, such
16 as getting Colonel Kovacevic, made it into the book. I looked for --
17 through the 6th, and perhaps I missed it, but could you take a look for us
18 and find out if a call from General Staff looking for Admiral Jokic made
19 it into this logbook. Could you just take a quick look, if you don't
20 mind. If you could find that entry for me, I'd be grateful. I might have
21 missed it.
22 A. No.
23 Q. No what? I'm sorry. No what? Are you willing to --
24 A. No. No. I mean, this call, you mean in their logbook, whether it
25 was recorded there.
1 Q. Right. Right. Did you see -- if you would maybe take a quick
3 A. As far as I remember, it's not in that logbook. When I looked at
4 it, the logbook from the forward command post, I mean. But that doesn't
5 necessarily mean that they ... What am I supposed to do now? What am I
6 supposed to go through?
7 Q. If you could take a look, please, for the entries on the 6th of
8 December, and if you could find an entry that indicates that General
9 Kadijevic was looking for Admiral Jokic through Kumbor and that there was
10 a call. Do you see it?
11 A. I mean, this logbook has nothing to do with that. That call, that
12 was through us. And now, where I found Jokic, one number or other, I
13 can't remember which phone number I used. But that's not really that
14 important. The important thing is: At the time there was a conversation
15 with the content that I told you about. I am prepared to swear that what
16 I'm telling you is the truth. This conversation did take place at that
17 time, and the content of that conversation that I gave you faithfully
18 reflects the conversation. Maybe Jokic himself will remember, if he's
19 willing to remember the conversation.
20 Q. Maybe you can help us. Yesterday you indicated that you called
21 Kupari searching for Admiral Jokic. Do you find in that Kupari logbook
22 that you have in front of you that -- any reference to your search for
23 Admiral Jokic? After all, he is your commander.
24 A. It's not in the logbook, but if I said that I asked for Kupari,
25 the normal procedure, the principal, Jokic was certainly not the
1 commander. If he had been the commander to ours, he would have had a
2 direct link or communication to the General Staff there, for General
3 Kadijevic would not have needed to call him or to call me or that man over
4 there. Therefore, he would have phoned directly. Now as to where I found
5 Jokic, I can't remember, but the crux of the matter is, we had hundreds of
6 conversations. I called Jokic very many times a day. I would put him
7 through, you know, when I found him.
8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm sorry for
9 interrupting, but what we see on page 45, between line 8 and line 16, I
10 can't intervene for the transcript itself, but when the tape is reviewed,
11 can this please be checked. Because what was actually said does not
12 correspond with what has been written down. So therefore, when the
13 transcript is checked, can the extra attention please be paid to this
14 section of the witness's testimony. Thank you.
15 MS. SOMERS:
16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. That request has been noted.
17 MS. SOMERS:
18 Q. Can you indicate to us whether or not you know about the
19 connections that exist from Cavtat to Dubrovnik? What do you know about
20 the connections, communications connections from Cavtat to Dubrovnik?
21 A. So Cavtat-Dubrovnik. I knew about that. There was a line, they
22 had one line from Dubrovnik, like I said, through Radio Dubrovnik. And
23 this was the more commonly used line. And there was another line between
24 Dubrovnik and the command at Mokosica, the local command. You could
25 establish communication. And the local command, well, it could -- well,
1 but sometimes the line was busy. Sometimes it was too busy or the line
2 was down.
3 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me, Your Honour. I just want to check the
5 Q. Can you tell us a little bit, if you're familiar with the process,
6 about faxes. Did you receive and send faxes in the course of your work as
7 an operations officer in Kumbor?
8 A. Yes. Through our encryption officer we were able to send faxes.
9 Q. Now, can you tell us the distance between Cavtat and Kupari?
10 A. Cavtat, Kupar [as interpreted], I have no idea how many
11 kilometres. I don't think I could say. Certainly not more than five
12 kilometres, thereabouts.
13 Q. They're pretty close to each other?
14 A. Yes. Not far.
15 Q. And they're both in Croatia?
16 A. Yes. Both in Croatia, yes.
17 Q. Now, they had direct telephone communication, given their
18 closeness to each other, right, those two locations?
19 A. Probably, yes, but I don't know exactly. I can't say. Well,
20 probably they did have. Logically speaking, they should have had.
21 Q. Okay. Thank you. When you took a look at the Kupari war diary,
22 or the log - I'd really rather call it just the communications log - what
23 was it that you were looking for? What particular entries were you
24 looking for, before you came to the courtroom to testify, you know,
25 whatever time you arrived in The Hague and had a chance to review this?
1 A. Nothing specific, truth to tell. I wasn't looking for anything
3 Q. If you could -- do you have the document in front of you? If you
4 would be good enough to look at page 66, please. Have you found the page?
5 If you could look at the entry for 2155 hours.
6 A. [In English] Yes.
7 Q. Okay. 2155 hours. It says: "Radio surveillance. Ammunition has
8 arrived in Stun [phoen] as well as another thing is and going for
9 Dubrovnik. Frigate Captain Handzijev." Now, tell us about the radio
10 surveillance. What this means, what was your role in this transmission.
11 What is this all about?
12 A. That's for purposes of monitoring.
13 Q. And what were you monitoring?
14 A. May I just go through it?
15 Q. Sure.
16 A. Well, I'm not sure what this information has to do with radio
17 surveillance now. The question is about radio surveillance, what they
18 did. Of course, they were eavesdropping. I'm not sure at all what this
19 information has to do with anything. It was conveyed to me. I was the
20 operational centre, after all, and this is something that I should keep in
22 Q. Were you involved, then, in interceptions of radio communications?
23 When you say "eavesdropping," were you talking about listening to
24 communications of the other --
25 A. Of course.
1 Q. I'm sorry.
2 A. Of course.
3 Q. Okay. And what did you do with that information that you got?
4 What did you -- if you found information that would have an impact on the
5 course of your -- of the units that were in the area of responsibility of
6 the 2nd Operational Group or the 9th VPS together, what would you do? I'm
7 sorry. And the 9th VPS. Right.
8 A. This sort of information, if it was really important, we would
9 convey this sort of information to our forward command post. We would
10 convey it.
11 Q. Who decided if it was really important?
12 A. Who decided? I decided, for example, if I was on duty on a
13 specific day. If it was someone else, then the other person made the
14 decision, depending who was on duty on a particular day. But it was our
15 service, our unit that decided, depending on the degree of importance of a
16 certain bit of information. There were different kinds of information,
17 but mostly we conveyed all of the information that we received. I'm not
18 sure what the meaning is behind this, but that's how it was.
19 Q. And so, as information or intelligence came in through
20 interception, part of your function, as I just understood what you said,
21 was to assess that intelligence and pass it on or not pass it on, as you
22 deemed appropriate?
23 A. Well, I don't know how important a question this is, but we passed
24 on almost all the information, and that's why we were, as I said, some
25 sort of a transit station. All the information we couldn't relay
1 directly -- they couldn't relay directly to them. They could only have
2 gone through us, and that's what we did. I was not the one to say how
3 important it was, but it could have been an innocuous piece of
4 information, and it was a subjective call for us whether we would pass it
5 on or not. Something really innocuous.
6 Q. But in intercepting communications from the other side, which have
7 potentially intelligence value, then you, as an operations officer, also
8 had, as part of your duties, some intelligence function as well, from what
9 you've just described, or did I get it wrong?
10 A. I think you got it wrong. As I said, our role was surveillance,
11 monitoring the situation in our area of responsibility, on the ground, in
12 the air, and also information was part of that. There were war operations
13 afoot. It doesn't matter how you obtain information, whether it's radio
14 surveillance, radar surveillance, but we got the information and we passed
15 it on, sure thing.
16 Q. Where were you in the early morning hours of the 6th of December,
17 please? Tell us exactly where you were.
18 A. I don't know exactly. Perhaps I was at the command.
19 Q. Which command?
20 A. The command of the 9th VPS. And my area, my area of movement, was
21 the operations centre, perhaps my office, the canteen, the toilet,
23 Q. And when you say command of the 9th VPS, are you referring to
24 Kumbor or are you referring to --
25 A. Yes, in Kumbor.
1 Q. Okay. Now, didn't you have several communications from Captain
2 Slobodan Kozaric in the early morning hours of the 6th of December?
3 A. As far as I could judge from the diary, I was not. I don't
4 remember. But from what I saw in the diary, all I can do is look through
5 it again perhaps.
6 Q. You don't remember? You don't remember it?
7 A. I don't remember.
8 Q. Okay. So your recollection about activities in the early morning
9 of the 6th of December would be only what you could glean from or take
10 from any possible entries in the war diary. Is that what you're trying to
11 tell me, tell the Chamber? You don't have an independent recall of that?
12 A. I do not recall. It's like this: You know, some things you
13 remember a long time. Other things you forget very quickly. And it's
14 been 12 years since that time. So depending on the weight of the
15 information and the events and all that kind of thing. Some things in the
16 space of 12 years, even a computer, the virus hits the computer and the
17 information is lost. So ...
18 Q. Now -- excuse me. I'm sorry.
19 In other words, what you're saying is a lot of things occur and
20 you don't have the ability to recall everything. Now, how can you -- how
21 are you --
22 A. Right.
23 Q. How do you know that a call that may have come from General
24 Kadijevic came on the 6th of December?
25 A. General Kadijevic did not call very often, and he did not call
1 unless he had some major reason. We were at peace for a long time, and
2 the most important event that happened was that if it was an important
3 event, he would have to intervene personally, and that was the event.
4 That was the most important event, the major event. So after a long
5 period of time, this happened, those operations happened. And that was
6 the period of time and that particular event when Kadijevic got involved
8 Q. And what operations are you talking about?
9 A. Well, the movement of forces towards Srdj. That's what I mean,
10 general movement, unnecessary commotion.
11 Q. Now, you --
12 A. Only a madman --
13 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you. I apologise. Were you also at the
14 operations centre of -- at Kumbor between the 23rd and the 25th of
15 October, 1991, and the 8th and the 13th of November, 1991?
16 A. I don't remember. But could you give me an event to jog my
17 memory? What events are you referring to.
18 Q. [Previous translation continues].. give me an event to jog your
19 memory. You mentioned operations. I mean, are you aware of any
20 operations that took place affecting the 2nd Operational Group or the area
21 around Dubrovnik or the 9th VPS during those periods of time?
22 A. Well, yes, I do know about one particular operation, and I'll
23 describe it, if you want me to, and explain. This is how it was: It was
24 the landing at Kupari. The landing at Kupari.
25 Q. And when did that take place? Tell us, please.
1 A. Well, I don't know the date. I really can't give you a date. But
2 I do remember the event well, but I don't remember the date when it took
4 Q. Let me ask you something. As a result of that landing at
5 Kupari -- up to that time, had the 9th VPS OPS centre been exclusively at
7 A. No. No.
8 Q. Where was it?
9 A. It was out there. When the landing took place, afterwards, maybe
10 one hour later after the landing, we had General Strugar on the line,
11 Pavle Strugar, when the landing took place, and he asked to speak to
12 Jokic, Admiral Jokic. And Jokic came to the phone - and I'm quoting now -
13 did he say, "Mijo, what are you doing? That's not a good thing. What
14 you're doing is not a good thing. Do you know where my forces are?" And
15 he wanted to answer, or maybe he did say something, but he said, "Don't
16 tell me anything now. I'll come and see you."
17 So when I heard this, I was -- felt unrest, because I felt there
18 was no subordination between Strugar, General Strugar, the commander of
19 the 2nd Operational Group, and Jokic. And I came to realise Jokic was
20 working on his own, on his own bat, that the landing had been done that
21 way. I remember that very well. But I can't give you a date.
22 Q. Well, okay. Now, how do you remember this so clearly -- how do
23 you remember those words so clearly after all those years?
24 A. I said: Some things remain deep in your memory. Other things
25 don't. And that's how my brain works, at least.
1 Q. Now, after this landing at Kupari, did anything change in terms of
2 the location of the communications centre? At what point did there become
3 an operations centre, the IKM? When did that take place?
4 A. Most probably after that. I can't remember. I didn't pay
5 attention to it. I know that one of our groups went. We divided up. So
6 probably after that, as soon as Kupari was taken, then quite naturally
7 they would go to the command post. That would be quite normal. The front
8 is moved forwards, and that is why it's called the forward command post.
9 Q. Now, the words that you said, I won't read the whole thing, but
10 Mijo something, something, something by General Strugar, whatever you
11 said. Why did these words -- maybe you can help us understand why these
12 words led you to conclude anything on the issue of subordination?
13 Whatever would have made you think about that in recalling those words
14 that you've just told us today in 2004?
15 A. Well, it's like this. I have to say again, some things I remember
16 well, others not. Sometimes I remember the tone of voice, for example,
17 that was used when a word was uttered. I just understood and came to
18 realise that General Strugar was caught unawares, and he was surprised at
19 what this man was doing over there. And I said that I was between the
20 hammer and the anvil, a rock and a hard place. I expected peace, and I
21 thought that this subordination went from the General Staff downwards and
22 that it was a stable chain of command. That's what I felt intimately.
23 And suddenly I see that Jokic was taking over, taking some action, and the
24 man who, for me, was his superior, that is to say, General Strugar, didn't
25 know about it. So this is subordination or insubordination. And a quite
1 unnatural set of events took place. So he worked on his own, on his own
2 bat. He was launching an operation that he didn't have orders for. And
3 there was an order from -- if there was an order for a landing, then the
4 order should have come from General Strugar.
5 Q. And did that worry you? Did that concern you up to this day, this
6 act? Have you been concerned about that up until now?
7 A. Today, today. What can we do today? I've been cooking in the
8 Balkan cauldron for 63 years. So to take on all that responsibility for a
9 landing on yourself, you know, a landing is a very complex operation. He
10 didn't agree about it with him. You have to have coordination, conjoined
11 forces, support forces, reinforcement from your neighbours. He was just
12 taking it as if he was going to attend a wedding.
13 Q. Let me understand: That it was your understanding from the way
14 you saw things then, from your perspective back then, and maybe perhaps up
15 until this day, that you believe that General Strugar did not know that
16 Kupari was going to be taken and that Admiral Jokic would be involved in
17 that. Is that what your concern has been?
18 A. I'm certain that Strugar didn't know, and I'd cut off my head, I'd
19 pledge that. Strugar certainly didn't know. Strugar was a knight, as far
20 as I am concerned. And Dubrovnik ought to erect a monument to him to
21 thank him for having Dubrovnik still stand.
22 Q. May I --
23 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me.
24 [Prosecution counsel confer]
25 MS. SOMERS:
1 Q. Did you view, as a result of this, Admiral Jokic as something less
2 than a knight?
3 A. Correct. Correct. You put that very well.
4 Q. Could you tell us what your feelings were, what it was that was
5 troubling you about Admiral Jokic?
6 A. What was troubling me about him. Well, I wanted everything to be
7 solved in a peaceful way, that we should all go our ways without any
8 casualties. And Jokic wasn't that kind of man. So for me personally, as
9 far as I'm concerned, he was obsessed, to have his frustrations, the
10 frustrations he experienced in Belgrade, where the mothers attacked him
11 with their umbrellas in Belgrade, to go and do this kind of thing. So
12 that was it. So as far as I was concerned, he was a renegade.
13 Q. You don't like Admiral Jokic, I take it.
14 A. And another thing --
15 Q. You don't like Admiral Jokic? I mean --
16 A. Well, you can conclude that if you like. It's not that I've come
17 here to testify against him, but he has no human qualities, no humaneness.
18 And he's not a professional soldier. A professional soldier does not loot
19 and plunder.
20 Q. Now, let me put your mind at rest. You seem to have been very
21 concerned about an action in Kupari having occurred behind General
22 Strugar's back, and you shouldn't leave here thinking that. If I could
23 ask for a moment that P121, just for a moment, be put back on the ELMO.
24 Do you have in front of you, Mr. Handzijev? I'm sorry. I'll
1 A. No, I don't.
2 Q. No problem. If you will -- if you have the document in front of
3 you, Mr. Handzijev. Can you look again -- you looked at it earlier today.
4 It's dated 23rd of October. It's a signed for -- or it's under the
5 signature of Major General Pavle Strugar and it goes to the 9th VPS. It
6 is a combat order. And if you look at the very first paragraph, it does
7 command the 9th VPS to take sections, including Kupari. Do you see that?
8 A. Yes, I can see that.
9 Q. So your conclusion about what was transpiring then between General
10 Strugar and Admiral Jokic was a conclusion that you came to without full
11 information, and it was an erroneous conclusion. Would you have to agree
12 to that, now that you know what really happened?
13 A. Well, I'm not clear whether the landing has anything to do with
14 this order. I can't conclude that. Because it doesn't mention the
15 landing here at all. And if it's an order, then in the order, it must
16 stipulate "landing." Because that landing needs several days to prepare,
17 and coordination. You have to have a coordination plan. And judging by
18 this order, maybe this is a movement of forces. That would be normal.
19 Tactical movement of forces of some kind. But it doesn't specify landing.
20 Q. [Previous translation continues]... where it says: "You should
21 take four sets of sections," and it describes them, okay, and one of them
22 is Kupari and Cavtat. Do you see that? Just -- if you see it, just say
23 yes. If you don't see it, say no.
24 A. I see it, yes.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Madam Usher. We've finished with that
3 Q. You testified that one function of the operations centre was to
4 monitor air and surface situations. Was that a type of weather monitoring
5 scheme or the objectives of which were to keep units informed of weather
6 forecasts and wind factors and things like that?
7 A. Well, we would receive dispatches. But monitoring, it was done
8 with radars, TISTINA [phoen] was the system. It was a computerised system
9 linked to the radar, the Falcon radar, produced in -- manufactured in
10 Sweden. And that's what we used to monitor the situation. It was
11 automatic monitoring, and we had two other radars as well, Decca radars.
12 And then the data processing was manual and you had the monitoring. But
13 everything in the air was done by radar, radar monitoring and computer
14 monitoring and processing.
15 Q. And if I understand you correctly, the system was in place to keep
16 the units informed of the situation with weather, et cetera, et cetera.
17 A. Weather situation. The facilities. You look at the whole of the
18 sea. We have our territorial waters. That whole area, and we look at the
19 different features, how many have you got on the sea. That is the surface
21 Q. [Previous translation continues]... is that right, is to keep you
22 advised of that information? You had the information, it was part of your
23 system, your very sophisticated system; is that correct?
24 A. We did have that, yes.
25 Q. Did you, on 6 December, learn of calls between Captain Slobodan
1 Kozaric and Captain Vladimir Kovacevic in Brgat and then subsequently in
3 A. I'm not aware of that. What -- Kovacevic? Captain Kovacevic? I
4 don't know. I can't remember. I don't have it in my memory.
5 Q. Did you become aware of calls between Captain Slobodan Kozaric and
6 battleship Captain Chief of Staff Milan Zec on the 6th of December?
7 A. I can't remember. Perhaps I knew it at the time, but not now. I
8 don't know.
9 Q. Well, the -- other than the entry on page 70, did you become aware
10 of calls between Captain Kozaric and Colonel Gavro Kovacevic on the 6th of
11 December, other than the reference that may have been made? I'm asking
12 you if you know of any other calls that may have been made between them on
13 the 6th of December.
14 A. No. Oh, at least I can't remember. I really don't know.
15 Q. Do you remember calls between - on the 6th of December - Admiral
16 Jokic and I believe it is Colonel Gojko Djurasic of Mokosica?
17 A. I don't know. They might have had direct links, direct
18 communication. So they didn't have to go through us.
19 Q. Do you remember or know of calls between Admiral Jokic in Kumbor
20 and General Strugar on the 6th of December?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You don't remember?
23 A. I don't remember. I don't remember anything about that call. I
24 don't know how it went, what lines.
25 Q. On the 6th of December, did any calls or communications come from
1 General Strugar through your operations centre, any communications or
2 calls that you can recall?
3 A. No. I don't know. I don't remember at all. We had
4 communications with some other command, but I don't remember this. And if
5 it was, it was minor, negligible. I don't remember. It didn't stay with
7 Q. It would be about a minor point?
8 A. Most probably. I can only assume that. Don't hold me to my word.
9 As long as it wasn't a major event, I didn't remember it. I just delete,
10 like you would with a computer.
11 Q. Could I ask you, Mr. Handzijev, to take a look at the log from
12 Kupari, please. If you could open it up to page 73, please. Are you
13 there yet? Tell me when.
14 A. Just a moment, please. Yes, I am.
15 Q. Okay. Let's look, if we can, at -- well, two entries. The first
16 one is at 1922, and it is -- it's for Lieutenant General Strugar from
17 Dubrovnik, and it says: "Rudolf. Because the fire is burning in the old
18 centre of Dubrovnik and threatening with horrible consequences due to the
19 lack of water, we ask that you enable the entry of ships with
20 water-cannons whose purpose is to extinguish the fires, from Korcula,
21 Ploce, into the old harbour of Dubrovnik. It is an urgent and necessary
22 intervention. We expect your initial consent, after which we would
23 precisely inform you of the type of ships and their time of arrival." And
24 then it bears, "Minister Davorin Rudolf."
25 The next entry is 1930, for the Dubrovnik Crisis Staff:
1 "Lieutenant General Pavle Strugar gives his initial consent for the
2 arrival of the ships, tugboats with water-cannons into the old harbour of
3 Dubrovnik in order to extinguish the fires. Please inform us timely of
4 the ships' number so as to ensure their unimpeded passage." And at the
5 bottom of the message is "Lieutenant General Pavle Strugar."
6 Did you not know about this communication on the 6th of December?
7 A. No. I'll explain it to you. I said that a possible line of
8 communication between the Crisis Staff and the forward command post
9 directly would be via Mokosica, the command of the place called Mokosica,
10 and I think it was Colonel Gojkovic or something like that, whatever his
11 name was, who was over there. It doesn't matter. But anyway, in answer
12 to your question, not to lose our valuable time. That question will be
13 answered by the next witness, because it's his handwriting, that he
14 received directly, he received this call directly. So you can clear that
15 matter up with him.
16 Q. Did you talk to the next witness about any of this -- of these
17 entries in the logs? Did you have any discussions with the next witness
18 about this, while he and you were in The Hague together, if you were
20 A. That witness, who will be coming in here, the next one, he worked
21 at the forward command post, the IKM. So he was the duty-officer there.
22 And you can ask him about all these matters, and he'll be able to tell
23 you. Because they received it directly. I didn't. My operations centre
24 didn't receive it directly. Had my operations centre -- let me explain.
25 Had my operations centre received information like this from Radio
1 Bar -- we did used to receive telegrams, dispatches of that kind. But had
2 I received it, then I would be able to say I conveyed -- that it was
3 conveyed to Handzijev, and Handzijev conveyed it further on up to Strugar.
4 That's what would have been recorded, that would be the entry. But you
5 can see here that it was with the forward command post directly, and if
6 you ask the next witness he'll be able to explain it all to you.
7 Q. My question to you was: Did you talk to the person who is the
8 next witness about your testimony, about the witness's testimony? Did you
9 discuss the case at all together, if you saw each other?
10 A. Well, of course. I can't lie and say we didn't. It's human to
11 talk. It's human to jog each other's memory. If I said we didn't, I
12 would be lying.
13 Q. Do you have any recollection of any particularly important
14 messages or communications from the 4th or the 5th of December, 1991 that
15 might have indicated to you that something was going to take place on the
16 6th of December?
17 A. Yes. On the 6th I knew that Rudolf would come, that he would have
18 a meeting in Cavtat and that a peace agreement would be signed. And I, as
19 a human being, I was happy about that. I didn't know anything else other
20 than that.
21 Q. Did you personally become aware of any communications or messages
22 that came across the operations centre on the 4th or the 5th of December
23 that would have told you that the action that you described at Srdj was
24 going to take place? Did you personally know of anything on the 4th or
25 the 5th of December about that?
1 A. No, absolutely nothing. All I knew was about the negotiations.
2 He was a minister. He was coming to -- for negotiations. How could I
3 know about any actions or operation over there? Only a madman could do
4 something like that.
5 Q. Sorry to hold you up. I just want to find something mentioned to
6 you that you discussed yesterday. I think you -- in discussing what you
7 said was a conversation from General Kadijevic -- I'll just find the
8 reference. Yesterday, I've just -- transcript reference from what I'm
9 able to take out of LiveNote was at 13:30:50, beginning there. Now, you
10 said that Kadijevic asked Jokic, well, I don't know on what terms they
11 were. What are you doing there? Down there? Now either in the singular
12 or in the plural.
13 Whatever would make you wonder whether or not General Kadijevic
14 would have used the singular or the plural? I mean, did you make note in
15 every entry that you make in your logbook the person on the other end of
16 the line spoke in the singular or the plural? I mean, why does that stick
17 in your mind, 13 years, 14 years later? What jogged -- why would you say
19 A. Well, I tell you, I don't know. I mean, quite simply, somehow --
20 they were in Belgrade, you see. Now, I assumed, and I think, that they
21 were on two terms, you see. But that's not important. I mean, I told you
22 what the meaning is. I guaranteed that, morally, legally, whatever. I'm
23 not going to lie. I haven't come here to lie. I want the truth to be
24 told. I want you to catch the truth. But in the Balkan triangle, you
25 cannot catch the truth. It seems to elude everyone. Try to understand
1 what I'm saying.
2 Q. What is your native language?
3 A. Ah, my mother tongue. My mother tongue is Greek, and then my
4 second mother tongue was Macedonian. And then Bulgarian. I don't know
5 what my mother tongue is. I told you, my childhood was during the civil
6 war in Greece, and then I left Greece, came to Yugoslavia, and now this
7 Yugoslavia was killed. Well, you know, mother tongue. So I'm a man
8 without a country.
9 Q. And so your concern about the use of the second person pronoun,
10 whether it was singular or plural, in a language that was not your mother
11 tongue, was really that much on your mind, up to today -- or yesterday,
12 excuse me.
13 A. Well, I'm telling you, it's not important. You know what, these
14 people who are close, you see, and I thought that -- well, you know, he
15 was a minister of defence, Jokic was, and this man was in the General
16 Staff, Chief of Staff. And you know, these people become intimate. They
17 become close. And I think that they spoke to each other on "ti" terms,
18 that is to say, in the second person singular. That doesn't matter. But
19 that's the meaning of these words.
20 Q. Now, if we find the missing logbook from Kumbor, are we going to
21 have an entry in there saying General Kadijevic spoke to Jokic using
22 "ti"? Would you have made a note of that?
23 A. Maybe you won't find it. I told you -- how should I put this? It
24 was quite simply transmission. It wasn't an order. I mean, it was even
25 immoral for me to hear this conversation, to listen to it. I could have
1 simply pressed a button and not listened. But General Kadijevic was the
2 chief of General Staff and I was interested in the situation. And I
3 couldn't be at peace. I simply had to listen. I had -- I wanted to see
4 what he wanted and what this was all about. It was about me. It was
5 about my family. Where we're going to be, are we going to go to Macedonia
6 or not. I mean, I think you understand me.
7 It's not moral, it's not what an officer should do, it's not
8 right, but I did listen to part of the conversation. And I'm telling you
9 which part this is, and if this helps you get to the truth, I'll be very
11 Q. Mr. Handzijev, the truth is, there was no conversation during the
12 morning between General Kadijevic and Admiral Jokic that you overheard or
13 didn't overhear; it didn't take place; and that is the truth.
14 A. If that's the kind of information you have, I'm telling you what I
15 remember. I remember that conversation. If you have some other kind of
16 information through some intelligence services of yours, that's debatable
17 too, as far as I'm concerned. I told you, I have no reason to attack
18 anyone. I have not come here to defend Strugar or to defend Jokic. I've
19 come here so that you could grasp the truth. That's why I came here. I
20 am sure that this conversation took place. I vouch that with my own head.
21 I didn't dream of this.
22 Q. The reason why we -- if we ever find the missing logbook from
23 Kumbor, the reason why we won't find an entry about this conversation is
24 because it didn't take place.
25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Sit down, please, Mr. Petrovic.
2 MS. SOMERS:
3 Q. Would you please confirm or deny what I've just asked you or said.
4 The reason we won't find it is because it didn't take place; isn't that
6 A. No. I'm telling you, I mean I'm not claiming this. Maybe we did
7 register it, maybe we did not. But I think that this was transmission,
8 this was transmitting. So there was no need for me to write it in the
9 logbook. I mean, well, whatever.
10 I mean, if you called me to come here as a witness, I'm telling
11 you what I remember, and now whether it was entered into a logbook or not,
12 well, you know what, there can be administrative errors too. We did not
13 write it down. We are not very tidy or punctual. I mean, not everybody
14 was that pedantic. I don't know if you understand what I am saying.
15 MS. SOMERS: The Prosecution has finished its cross-examination.
16 Thank you.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic, I didn't allow you to make an
18 objection at that moment because it was a most critical point in the
19 cross-examination. Is there something you now wish to raise?
20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what my friend said in
21 terms of her tone and the substance of what she said may imply some kind
22 of involvement of General Strugar's Defence counsel in the matter of
23 whether this document exists or not, and I would resolutely like to refute
24 any kind of insinuation if that is what my learned friend wanted to do at
25 that point in time, and that is what I wished to react to then.
1 JUDGE PARKER: I can only say I didn't detect that, so I think we
2 can leave that matter.
3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Re-examination, Mr. Rodic.
5 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Could the witness please be given P121.
7 Re-examined by Mr. Rodic:
8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Handzijev, did you have time to read this
10 A. No, I did not.
11 Q. Could you please do that now. Are you reading --
12 A. The first paragraph.
13 Q. The order for further actions to the command of the 9th VPS of the
14 472nd Motorised Brigade of the 23rd of October, 1991?
15 A. Yes.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel come closer to the microphone,
18 A. Yes, I've read this.
19 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. I would like to ask you, now that you've read this in general
21 terms, in this decision related for further actions, is there any mention
22 of the landing in Kupari as a military operation?
23 A. In any order, in any order, when a landing is planned, then there
24 has to be a separate paragraph about that, and then it says --
25 Q. Thank you. Tell me: When you look at the first paragraph, the
1 last sentence says: "You should take four sets of sections 1:25.000 of
2 that region with you (Dubrovnik, Dubac, Kupari-Cavtat)."
3 From these sections of maps, can any conclusion be drawn in terms
4 of a landing on Kupari being ordered?
5 A. No, it cannot. These are regular sections that refer to this
6 entire area.
7 Q. Thank you. I no longer need this.
8 In the first part of the cross-examination, my learned friend put
9 certain questions to you in relation to Ivan Milisic, the former Chief of
10 Staff of the 9th Military Naval Sector; is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Several questions were put to you in relation to the court
13 proceedings that took place before the military court in Nis, in relation
14 to the indictment against Ivan Milisic.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What was the role that you specifically had in those court
17 proceedings? Just tell me what role.
18 A. I was a witness.
19 Q. Thank you. Did you testify in these proceedings?
20 A. I did.
21 Q. In those court proceedings, as a witness, did you tell the truth?
22 A. The whole truth.
23 Q. Please, just be brief and answer my questions. Apart from your
24 testimony in these proceedings, did you confront any other witnesses that
25 were heard in those proceedings?
1 A. I was confronted with Admiral Kandic.
2 Q. Please. On the basis of what?
3 A. Because he had stated that there were so many events that he did
4 not remember that he ordered Ivo -- I mean, it relates to warship Captain
5 Milisic, that he did not remember issuing such an order. Let me explain
6 one more thing now.
7 Then we were confronted, and I quite simply said that's not true,
8 and I said exactly what it was like. And he didn't say anything. And
9 then later on, when we went out, while we were waiting for transportation
10 to go back, we were on our own, and if you don't believe me, the Court can
11 call Kandic. And he said to me, "Oh, Pere, I have a granddaughter in
12 Split." And then it was all clear to me.
13 Q. What was all clear to you?
14 A. It was clear to me that he could not tell the actual truth. That
15 was clear to me. And I did not like the fact that I had to tell the
16 truth. All my friends were Croats. Milisic was my best friend. But I
17 could not lie in a court of law.
18 Q. This explanation given by Admiral Kandic, who also took part in
19 the proceedings against Ivan Milisic as a witness, what he said to you
20 after the trial, as you said, "Oh, Pere, I have a grandchild in Split."
21 In relation to what did he say that? What did he mean by this sentence?
22 What did he try to express?
23 MS. SOMERS: [Previous translation continues]... how does this man
24 know what Kandic meant?
25 JUDGE PARKER: Do you see the point, Mr. Rodic? It is
2 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour. I'm going to
3 rephrase my question.
4 Q. Why did Admiral Kandic tell you, "Pero, you see, I have" --
5 MS. SOMERS: Same objection.
6 A. Daughter. Daughter. Granddaughter.
7 MS. SOMERS: Sorry, Your Honour. I had indicated objection. Same
9 JUDGE PARKER: I heard that, and you've heard that there was an
10 answer given. So I think we'd better leave that alone now, Mr. Rodic.
11 You've probably got what you wanted.
12 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Mr. Handzijev, were you a witness to the fall of the helicopter in
14 which General Cokic and warship Captain Djurovic were?
15 A. I was a witness when the helicopter fell, because it fell close to
16 us. We were on the road leading to Cilipi, the motorway. And we had to
17 run away when the helicopter fell because the Croatian forces that were
18 retreating from the village of Komaja because our forces were advancing
19 there and then they were walking towards us, towards the road leading to
20 Cilipi. And then we had to go away. We were in a small fiat, the small
21 Fiat car, and we had to flee to Kupari.
22 Q. All right.
23 MS. SOMERS: I'd like to object, Your Honour. The question was
24 that he was witness to the fall of the helicopter. He said, if I remember
25 the testimony, he was in the area of and he heard about it.
1 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I'll move on, Your Honour, although
2 the witness did describe this in greater detail during the
4 Could the witness please be shown P119.
5 Q. You don't have to read everything. Just look at this document,
6 please, and tell us, in your view, what kind of a document is this?
7 A. This is a decision for further action. It is a decision of the
8 2nd Operational Group.
9 Q. This decision was written on the 24th of October; is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. For which time period, to which time period does it relate? Does
12 it pertain to that day or some other day?
13 A. As far as I can see, it pertains to that day.
14 Q. What does this mean, decision for further actions? When are these
15 further actions carried out?
16 A. Once an action is carried out, or when certain actions are
18 Q. Thank you. In principle, combat orders and decisions for further
19 actions of the command of the 2nd Operational Group, where were they sent
21 A. Their command. It says here quite specifically, the 2nd Corps,
22 the 37th VPS, the 9th VPS, and the 472nd Motorised Brigade.
23 Q. Was the entire 9th VPS involved in military operations in the
24 territory of Dubrovnik and Herzegovina?
25 A. I explained that we were a peacetime command. Our part did not
1 participate in this, so we did not have to familiarise ourselves with
2 these documents.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] We no longer need this document.
5 Q. You described during your testimony work in the operations centre
6 of the 9th Military Naval Sector in Kumbor and numerous activities that
7 took place in that period towards the end of 1991; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So I am not referring to a precise piece of information now, but
10 in view of these numerous activities, can you tell me approximately what
11 the quantity of information was that came to your operations centre daily?
12 A. There was a great frequency involved. First of all, demands for
13 additional personnel went through us as well, and we had officers who
14 received that. We had two officers who were dealing with that. Then also
15 when relocation started, we had lots of work.
16 Q. Mr. Handzijev, you described these activities, relocation and
17 communication with very many people. My question is: Can you somehow
18 express this numerically? Are you talking about tens of pieces of
19 information or hundreds?
20 A. Hundreds.
21 Q. Thank you. Also during your testimony, you explained what were
22 all the things that were on the premises of the operations centre and,
23 inter alia, you explained that there is communications equipment there and
24 that there is also this desk with the telephone lines, this switchboard;
25 is that right.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Is this desk with a switchboard, does it only have a receiver?
3 And the person talking from that desk, can this person talk only through
4 the receiver?
5 A. There is a speakerphone there, so that is a microphone, and also a
6 receiver can be used. So it can be used as a telephone and as a
8 Q. Were there any situations when calls and conversations would take
9 place through this speakerphone, this Parlaphone, as you call it?
10 A. Yes, speakerphone, Parlaphone. Sometimes they didn't switch it
11 off. It depended on the person who was there on the desk. On the other
12 hand, there can be another telephone line that is open at that moment,
14 Q. In the operations centre, were there several persons there?
15 A. Yes. Sometimes there would be several persons. Sometimes also
16 the chiefs of arms and services would come there and they would have a
18 Q. All right.
19 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, would this be the right
20 time for the second break?
21 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. We'll resume at just after a quarter to.
22 --- Recess taken at 12.27 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 12.49 p.m.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Rodic.
25 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Mr. Handzijev, from Kumbor, from the operations centre at Kumbor,
2 could you establish the military communication line with Cavtat and
4 A. Yes, we could.
5 Q. Through the Kumbor operations centre, could you put through
6 participants in Cavtat and Mokosica to another participant?
7 A. Yes, we could, through the forward communications centre. They
8 had a small switchboard like we had. They would take up the line of
9 communication and then they would put them through.
10 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, pardon me. But a point of
11 clarification. When a witness says "forward communications centre," could
12 it be identified what is meant by that, please.
13 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Handzijev, can you tell us what this means, forward --
15 A. I said forward command post, the forward command post, IKM.
16 Q. At the command of the 9th VPS at Kumbor, was there a system in
17 place for radio surveillance, eavesdropping on radio communications, more
19 A. That was not at Kumbor. In the building, there was a special body
20 that was attached to us. They arrived from the PPO [as interpreted]
21 command. That was the role they had, eavesdropping. That's where they
23 Q. The transcript does not reflect the command you referred to.
24 Which command? From which command did you receive those? If you could
25 tell us the full name.
1 A. The VPO command. It was a section they had.
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not get the name that the
3 witness referred to.
4 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. So those surveillance activities were not carried out from the
6 operations centre at Kumbor?
7 A. No. The operations centre had nothing to do with that. They
8 had -- had they had a direct line with them, they wouldn't have contacted
9 us at all. But they didn't. But we were just some sort of transit. This
10 was not our body. This was another body that existed earlier. They would
11 coordinate, they would train, and they would be established up there at
12 Obosnik. If they had a direct line of communication with them, they would
13 have sent them messages, but they did it through us, because we were the
15 Q. They also asked you a question about systems of surveillance at
16 the operations centre of the 9th VPS in Kumbor. Can you tell us, please,
17 from the operations centre at Kumbor, what specifically could you monitor
18 or survey?
19 A. The entire situation, for example, at sea, when a ship was leaving
20 the coast of Italy, for example, and then monitored the course of the
21 journey. For example, what the speed of the boat was, what the crew was,
22 what the course was that the boat had taken. It's the surface situation.
23 That's how we referred to it. Vessels, ships, and planes too.
24 Q. Can you tell us what Voji is, V-o-j-i?
25 A. That's air monitoring, air traffic monitoring. They had their own
1 radars. There's a system of communication. They receive information from
2 those radars, transfer them into a computer, and you get an idea what the
3 situation in the area is like. The speed of a plane, at which a plane is
4 travelling, the whole thing. It's a very sophisticated system.
5 Q. Very well. In order to avoid confusion: When you explained the
6 conversation between General Kadijevic and Admiral Jokic, you used the
7 expression "pair see and pair to," [phoen] didn't you?
8 A. Yes. I meant they were saying you to each other, second person
10 Q. You said about not remembering how General Kadijevic addressed
11 Admiral Jokic, whether it was the familiar term of address or a more
12 formal one, "vi," v-i, or "ti," t-i, in B/C/S?
13 MS. SOMERS: Objection, Your Honour. I think he said plural or
14 singular was the term used in the direct examination.
15 JUDGE PARKER: You're slipping back into giving the evidence
16 yourself, Mr. Rodic.
17 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the question is about the
18 grammar of B/C/S.
19 JUDGE PARKER: You can ask the witness what he meant, rather than
20 you telling him what he meant.
21 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Handzijev, your uncertainty about the way General Kadijevic
23 addressed Admiral Jokic, the form of address, what is your uncertainty
24 about? Is it about whether General Kadijevic addressed him in the
25 singular or in the plural?
1 A. As far as I remember, I'm sure that he addressed him in singular.
2 It was a more intimate form of address. That's how it is etched in my
3 memory. Now I'm confused, in view of how much time has passed by since.
4 It strikes me as illogical that they would. So that's why I have this
5 dilemma. But I'm closer and closer to concluding that they addressed each
6 other more intimately, in the singular form, second person singular. But
7 I do have this dilemma.
8 Q. Can you please describe using your own words a relationship
9 between two persons. Therefore, let us not think now specifically about
10 Kadijevic and Jokic. When you talk to someone, when do you use the second
11 person plural and when the second person singular? Can you please try to
12 tell us what this would imply?
13 MS. SOMERS: This question requires either an explanation in
14 grammar or some area that is not necessarily within the explanation powers
15 of this witness, or we haven't established that type of predicate, anyway.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on, please, Mr. Rodic.
17 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. Handzijev, do you understand my question?
19 A. Can you please repeat the question.
20 Q. So, when you talk to a person, your decision whether you will
21 address the person with the first person singular or the second person
22 singular or the second person plural, what does that decision depend on?
23 A. If I'm on intimate terms with a person, if we're close or
24 familiar -- but even so, even if I'm on intimate terms with someone, if
25 it's an official conversation, normally I would use the second person
1 plural. However, if we're alone, we would use the second person singular.
2 For example, the case of Zec. When we're alone, we use the second person
3 singular. But if there's a third person present, I use the second person
4 plural, the more formal form of address. If I understand you correctly.
5 Q. Yes, I believe you do. Thank you. At one point in time you
6 mentioned, while explaining the situation with Kupari, between General
7 Strugar and Admiral Jokic, you mentioned frustrations, the frustrations of
8 Admiral Jokic. What exactly did you have in mind?
9 MS. SOMERS: Objection, Your Honour. Speculative.
10 JUDGE PARKER: No. He did express that. You didn't take any
11 further your questioning as to the nature of that or what he meant by it.
12 I would allow the re-examination.
13 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
14 A. Jokic was the secretary of national defence, and when the
15 operations began, or rather, when unrest began in Yugoslavia, the riots,
16 the women, the mothers, those whose sons were still in Slovenia when there
17 were operations afoot in Slovenia, they went to the assembly and they
18 requested answers from Jokic about when their sons would be back. I'm not
19 sure what Jokic told them and how he explained the situation, but they
20 attacked him with their umbrellas, with their brollies. They wanted him
21 removed from his post, and that's when he was transferred and came to us.
22 That is why I believed he was frustrated. Now that can be taken out of
23 context, but in my opinion that is the explanation.
24 Q. Did Admiral Jokic say what he wanted, what he was after when he
25 arrived in Kumbor?
1 A. Well, you know that there were several informal conversations,
2 contacts, I had sporadically in our spare time, in a more relaxed
3 atmosphere. Sometimes he would say, "Well, I'll have a cup of coffee on
4 the Stradun." I certainly did hear him say that a number of times.
5 Q. Thank you very much. Was this the first time you had Jokic as
6 commander in October 1991, when he arrived in Kumbor?
7 A. He had been my commander prior to that also, before he had left
8 for Belgrade.
9 Q. How long have you known Admiral Jokic for?
10 A. Quite long. Since I arrived in the sector, that's when I believe
11 I met him. He was the chief of the operations and training department for
12 a while. He was the Chief of Staff. Well, he was the commander there, so
13 I've known him for quite a long time.
14 Q. Mr. Handzijev, thank you very much.
15 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this completes my
17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Rodic.
18 You'll be pleased to know that that concludes your evidence. You
19 are now free to go and to return to your home. So thank you for coming
20 and for the assistance you've given us.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, Your Honours, for
22 allowing me to contribute to the work of this Tribunal.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic.
25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may, now that the
1 testimony has finished, I would like to make two remarks, briefly.
2 The first remark is I would like to have the tape of this
3 testimony checked carefully when drawing up the final version of the
4 transcript in relation to yesterday's and today's testimony, since a
5 significant number of words - I did step in several times - but due to a
6 lack of time, I omitted several interventions. Therefore, the tape needs
7 checking so that we may have a complete testimony of this witness.
8 Secondly, with the Chamber's permission, I would like to provide
9 an explanation for the grammatical confusion that occurred in the last
10 minutes of the witness's testimony, if I may, that is. From the point of
11 view of the grammatical rules of B/C/S, the language.
12 JUDGE PARKER: I think you have no need to do that. We grasp
13 enough to follow. It's a feature that occurs in a number of languages.
14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Even French, I hear.
16 Yes, Mr. Rodic.
17 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we can proceed if you
18 like. The Defence would like to call our next witness to take the stand.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. And who is that?
20 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Jovan Drljan.
21 [The witness entered court]
22 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. Would you take the card and read
23 the affirmation.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
25 WITNESS: JOVAN DRLJAN
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Please sit down.
5 Mr. Rodic.
6 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Examined by Mr. Rodic:
8 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, can you please tell us your full name.
9 A. My name is Jovan Drljan. I am a frigate captain by rank and I am
11 Q. Can you please tell us where and when you were born.
12 A. I was born on the 9th of December, 1938, in the village of
13 Luscani, Petrinja municipality, Republic of Croatia.
14 Q. Thank you. You said you were a frigate captain, retired. Can you
15 please try to compare that to an infantry rank.
16 A. Lieutenant colonel.
17 Q. Thank you. Mr. Drljan, can you tell us about your educational
19 A. Primary school in my native village, secondary school in Sisak and
20 the military naval academy at Split, at the Divulje Training Centre of the
22 Q. Do you have any occupational specialty or is that a more general
23 kind of training?
24 A. Later on I specialised for torpedoes and mines.
25 Q. At the beginning of our conversation, since we speak the same
1 language, could you please just pause briefly several seconds after I
2 finish asking my question and then after this brief pause, you provide
3 your answer. It's for the benefit of the interpreters and the transcript.
4 Tell me, sir, please: From what time to what time were you
5 serving in the army?
6 A. As an active lieutenant colonel, between 1961 and the end of 1995.
7 Q. Can you tell us, in this period of time, which garrisons did you
8 serve in?
9 A. The one in Split. However, the destroyer on which I did an
10 internship was being repaired in Rijeka, and I spent nearly a year in
11 Rijeka, then briefly back in Split, after which I got a transfer to
12 Sibenik. I spent 13 years in Sibenik and later got a transfer to Boka.
13 Q. Can you tell us when it was that you arrived in Boka?
14 A. I arrived on the 1st of September, 1976.
15 Q. Did you serve in the 9th Military Naval Sector?
16 A. First I was the commander of the mine hunters in the village of
17 Lepetane. That's where the command post was. I spent four years there.
18 And in 1980, I arrived in the operations centre of the military naval
19 sector of Boka. In the meantime, between 1984 and 1986, I had been sent
20 to Libya, where I taught at the Libya naval academy. After that, I
21 returned to the Boka Military Naval Sector.
22 Q. Thank you very much. Can you tell us about the second half of
23 1991. Where were you serving at that time and which position did you
25 A. In the second half of 1991, I was serving in the Military Naval
1 Sector of Boka at the operations and training department. I was there as
2 an operations officer in charge of planning. All the sectors' plans that
3 had to do with the unit's activities were drawn up by me, and I had an
4 additional duty as a gym instructor throughout the sector.
5 Q. In 1991, did you work at the operations centre of the 9th VPS in
6 Kumbor as a duty-officer?
7 A. I was on the roster, as were a number of other officers, for
8 operations duty at the operations centre, and I was one of those officers.
9 Q. In late summer 1991, did you take part in any military activities
10 outside Kumbor?
11 A. On the 27th of September, I received an order from the late
12 warship Captain Krstic, or rather, Krsto Djurovic, who then held the
13 position of sector commander, to go to Pula, and pull out three patrol
14 boats that were still based in Pula at the time.
15 Q. As you were serving in the 9th Military Naval Sector, who at that
16 time was your superior command?
17 A. Our superior command at the time was the command of the military
18 naval district, VPO.
19 Q. In the military naval sector, in that period of time, did you
20 receive orders from the command of the military naval district?
21 A. Yes. We received orders from the command of the military naval
22 district, just like in the case of this order, where I was ordered to go
23 to Pula. This order had been issued by the command of the military naval
24 district to the sector command, which then carried it out through my own
1 Q. Tell me, please: Upon your arrival in Pula, did you carry out
2 that task of moving the ships?
3 A. Yes, I did, with a group of officers and NCOs, and we did manage
4 to transport those ships to Boka. We stayed up there for repairs and
5 maintenance of the machinery on board ship, to capacitate the ships for
6 safe sailing, and they sailed to Boka.
7 Q. Tell me, please, if you remember correctly: When did you arrive
8 in Boka Kotorska, the Bay of Kotor?
9 A. We arrived in the Bay of Kotor on the 5th of October, at 1.00 p.m.
10 Q. Tell me, please: At that time, was the blockade of the Adriatic
11 in force?
12 A. The blockade of the Adriatic, to the best of my knowledge, from
13 warship Captain Rakic, who was acting as a deputy of the Pula sector, I
14 set sail on the 3rd, in the evening, at 2100 hours, and he warned me - I
15 didn't see the order, but he did caution me - that the command of the
16 military naval district had blocked the entire area of the Adriatic along
17 our coast, our territorial waters, in fact, and that I should take care,
18 that I should make myself known to the warships along the way so that they
19 knew we were there and we wouldn't open fire at one another.
20 Q. When you reached Kumbor, was the blockade still in force?
21 A. Yes, it was.
22 Q. Tell me, please: Do you know how long the blockade remained in
23 force for?
24 A. The blockade remained in force until -- I think it was the 11th of
25 October, when an order came from the VPO, the military naval district.
1 Q. And what did the order stipulate from the command of the military
2 naval district? What was ordered?
3 A. It was ordered that the blockade should be lifted for sailing in
4 the Adriatic, which meant that vessels could move around but that they had
5 to inform of them their movement. And this meant the whole coastline and
6 the Dubrovnik area as well, the territorial waters there.
7 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to ask the usher to hand out
8 a document now, please.
9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honour, may I place an objection?
10 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: We just received this document which learned
12 counsel is about to show the witness. It's a document allegedly signed by
13 Admiral Jokic, and it indicates that the Defence had this document during
14 the period that Admiral Jokic was cross-examined, and it was never shown
15 to the Admiral [indiscernible] and about this document, so there's a
16 Rule 90(H) violation here.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Not necessarily. It depends on the nature of the
18 document, whether it has to be shown. Can I see the document, please.
19 I'll see it from Mr. Rodic, so I know I've got the right one.
20 I've got two comments. I see no basis in the document for
21 thinking that there is a problem that it wasn't specifically put to the
22 Admiral. But I equally don't quite see what the document has to do with
23 this case. But if you -- you will know more of your case than I would,
24 Mr. Rodic.
25 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Mr. Drljan, can you tell us whose document this is?
2 A. This document is that of the command of the Military Naval Sector
3 of Boka, Vice Admiral Jokic.
4 Q. And what does the document refer to?
5 A. The document refers to the deblocking of the -- to lift the naval
6 blockade of the ports of the Dubrovnik municipality. He followed orders
7 from the VPO, military naval district, and reduced the order for his area
8 of responsibility, which means he deblocked Dubrovnik, and he mentions
9 that the forces of the first and second ships of the 16th GMO should still
10 be controlled. Continue to control the sea vessels, et cetera, et cetera,
11 preventing the transport of weaponry and so on.
12 Q. Tell me, please: If I understood you correctly, since in the
13 introduction to this document it says: "Pursuant to the order of the
14 command of the military naval district," and then it has the number,
15 "... of the 11th of October, 1991, I hereby order ..." Does that mean
16 that this kind of order was issued by the command of the military naval
17 district to the military naval sector of Boka, the bay of Boka?
18 A. Yes, of course, on the basis of the command's orders. So he acted
19 upon their order. It was written for our area of responsibility.
20 Q. All right. Thank you. Now tell me, please, one more thing. Do
21 to whom was this document and command addressed?
22 A. It was addressed -- I'm not going to read it here, but it was
23 addressed to the 16th GMO, which was engaged in enforcing the blockade and
24 probably the battleship gunboat that was on the assignment at the forward
25 command post in Kupari.
1 Q. I have to interrupt you, Witness, at this point. There's no need
2 for you to give us additional explanations or not to look at the document,
3 and I have provided you with the document so that you can take a look at
4 it and answer my question on the basis of that. So the 16th GMO, can you
5 give us the full title?
6 A. The 16th Border Naval Detachment.
7 Q. And was it in charge of carrying out the tasks with respect to the
8 blockades and all the rest of it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. To whom was this document also addressed? Take a look at the
11 document, please, in order to answer the question. To which commands?
12 A. The GMO, the operations centre, and the operational group, to the
13 attention of the 2nd Operational Group.
14 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like this
15 Defence exhibit to receive a number, please.
16 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the number will be D105.
18 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. During that period of time, that is to say, towards the end of
20 summer 1991, up until the end of 1991, did the military naval district and
21 the military naval sector carry out any other important activities during
22 that period of time?
23 A. We were on the alert, on a state of readiness, all the commanding
24 officers and units were at their positions in the barracks, until the
25 activities started of refuting Croatian forces from the Prevlaka area,
1 repulsing them. And I at the time was in Pula, however, but I heard when
2 the operation started.
3 Q. Tell me, please: As to this period, the end of the summer to the
4 end of 1991, were there any activities linked to any units of the military
5 naval sector on the Adriatic coast in the Republic of Croatia, for
6 instance, right up to Pula?
7 A. Yes. There were activities, in the sense of rear support to units
8 who were coming in from Pula, Split, Sibenik, and so on, and taking in the
9 ships and the units, the vessels coming in, security, accommodation, and
10 all the rest of the activities that are necessary for a unit to be
11 relocated, to be transferred from one location to another.
12 Q. And what place was that where all these units were transferred to?
13 A. That was mostly Kumbor and Tivat.
14 Q. Was that the area of the Bay of Kotor sector, military naval
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Tell me, please: In the period from October, November, and
18 December 1991, were you yourself in Kumbor throughout?
19 A. Yes, I was. Or rather, not in Kumbor. For a time I was in Kumbor
20 when Kupari was taken over, forward command post was set up, the IKM of
21 Kupari, and that's when I went to Kupari myself and I spent some time
23 Q. Tell me, please: When the forward command post at Kupari was
24 established and when you yourself arrived there, what specifically did you
25 do there? What duties did you have?
1 A. I was an operations officer, like I was in Kumbor, with duty
2 shifts in the operations centre where we would take shifts and replace
3 each other.
4 Q. Tell me, please: Do you know any of the officers who worked with
5 you in the operations centre at the forward command post in Kupari?
6 A. In the operations centre at the forward command post, in fact, in
7 Kupari, there was frigate captain, the then frigate Captain Kozaric. He
8 was with me. Frigate Captain Uljarevic, another officer who left because
9 he was ill, and he was absent from sometime, on sick-leave. Then Captain
10 First Class Sikimic and corvette Captain retired Mika Celebcic [phoen].
11 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now, tell me, please. In the operations
12 centre at the forward command post in Kupari, was there a diary or logbook
13 kept at all?
14 A. Yes. A war diary or war logbook was kept and that was the normal
15 procedure. It was a compulsory document.
16 Q. Tell me, please: What is entered? What is recorded in a document
17 of that kind?
18 A. All events taking place during a day are recorded and entered into
19 the logbook for combat reports to be compiled later on. All important
20 events that take place in the units under our responsibility and in the
21 area around, if they affect the activities of our own troops. So that
22 means everything about our forces, enemy forces, the events that take
23 place, casualties, killings, woundings, and so on and so forth, and all
24 orders that are received, all dispatches that are received, they're all
25 recorded in entries made into the war diary.
1 Q. Thank you. I should now like to ask the usher again to hand the
2 witness another document. It is D96.
3 Mr. Drljan, do you recognise this document? Take a look at it,
5 A. Yes, I do recognise it.
6 Q. Is it the war diary or logbook of the operations centre of the
7 9th Military Naval Sector, which was kept at the forward command post of
9 A. Yes, that's right. I recognise my own handwriting, in fact.
10 Q. When you open the diary, from page 59, can you tell us where you
11 come across your handwriting first?
12 A. In point 1, at 1615. That's the time, 1615.
13 Q. What am page is that?
14 A. It's page 59. The time is 1615 hours and my first entry on that
15 page. And it referred to the 3rd of December.
16 Q. Very well. Now take a look at the date, the 4th of December,
17 1991, the entries for that day. Are there any of your own entries there?
18 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me, Your Honour. Can we confirm that it was
19 page 59 that the witness was referring to? I don't see an entry for 1615
20 on my page 59. Perhaps ...
21 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I be allowed to
22 explain? We provided the exhibit, the excerpt from the war diary, dated
23 the 4th of December, for those days, for the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th of
24 December, 1991, and in the original document, the 4th of December starts
25 in mid-page, in the middle of the page. And there are several entries
1 from the 3rd of December. Now, since the witness was looking at the
2 original, he mentioned page 59 of the original.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first paragraph -- the first
5 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Yes, the first entry.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Does that help, Ms. Somers?
7 MS. SOMERS: Limitedly, Your Honour. It would probably be very
8 helpful if the Defence would provide the entire document, at least from
9 the period of the indictment, so that should any references come out --
10 we -- I realise that --
11 JUDGE PARKER: Well, I think you have the entire period of the
12 indictment, but you also have it for two previous days.
13 MS. SOMERS: I have only these relevant days. I do not have
14 anything --
15 JUDGE PARKER: Well, the indictment is the 6th of December.
16 MS. SOMERS: I'm sorry. The period of October -- correct. I
17 apologise. October through the end of December. That would be very
18 helpful. But I could raise it another time. But it was of limited
19 assistance, what Mr. Rodic gave us.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Well, we know that what we have in English
21 commences part way down page 59, with the first of the entries for the 4th
22 of December.
23 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour. The 4th of
24 December, and that's the evidence, and I'm going to ask the witness about
25 the 4th of December entries.
1 Q. Mr. Drljan, take a look at the date, please, the 4th of December,
2 and for that day, you can tell me whether there are any of your own
3 entries in the war diary.
4 A. The first one is at 1815, on page 61.
5 Q. Can you just tell us briefly what this entry at 1815 pertains to.
6 A. That is an intercept of a conversation over radio. It says Ante
7 Catlak is replaced and Olujic Aljosa is taking his place, and so on and so
9 Q. All right. Please look at the comments on the right-hand side.
10 What is there next to this message at 1815?
11 A. It says: "Frigate Captain Jeremic."
12 Q. Can you explain what this means?
13 A. This remark means that Jeremic gave us this information, conveyed
14 it. This piece of information was received through his service, and he
15 conveyed it further on to us.
16 Q. What is this service of Jeremic's?
17 A. The counter-intelligence service, monitoring the enemy, the enemy
18 side, and collecting information about the enemy side.
19 Q. Thank you. Did you sign this entry? Did you place your signature
20 next to it?
21 A. No, I did not sign it. It was more important for me to know who I
22 received this information from.
23 Q. All right. Could you please look at the 4th of December.
24 A. Here it is. "Srdj, trig point 412, a transporter noticed."
25 Q. What about under "remarks?"
1 A. Zdravkovic. He gave that information.
2 Q. And this is recorded at 1833; right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Could you please look at the log for the 5th of December, 1991,
5 and could you tell us whether you made any entries on that day.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. On which page?
8 A. On page 65.
9 Q. Where is your first entry on page 65?
10 A. At 1725.
11 Q. Can you tell us what you wrote?
12 A. "We have received an oral order from the Operations Centre General
13 Staff. The Third Administration is reporting: Keep the January portion
14 of the soldiers until further notice in the JNA. How fast that will be
15 will be regulated by the Presidency of the SFRY." So that meant that it
16 was not certain how long they would keep the soldiers.
17 Q. And what about the column "remarks"?
18 A. I signed my own name, because I received this from the OKM. The
19 OKM is the basic command post in Kumbor. This was not received directly
20 from the General Staff but from Kumbor, because this was first conveyed to
22 Q. Is this a direct oral order from the operations centre of the
23 General Staff? Did it arrive directly at the 9th VPS?
24 A. I cannot say. I don't know, because I was not staying there.
25 Q. All right.
1 A. I know that we received it by telephone.
2 Q. All right. Tell me, please: Are there any other entries that you
4 A. Right below, at 1745.
5 Q. And what is this about? Just tell us that so that we don't read
6 the whole thing.
7 A. Jeremic sent this to us too. This was a radio message for VPS
8 Boka, pursuant to our conversation, pursuant to our conversation from the
9 2nd of December, 1991 in Cavtat, according to standard procedures.
10 Q. Isn't the word "models" written here?
11 A. "...standard procedures and models of work, regarding movements in
12 the region outside the town of Dubrovnik, we suggest the following to
14 Q. All right. Let's not read the whole thing. Is this a radio
15 message for VPS Boka Frigate Captain Jeremic, one that you received?
16 A. Probably, because the communication between the Crisis Staff of
17 Dubrovnik and the command in Kumbor was then taking place via Radio Bar.
18 Q. All right. Are there any other entries there that you made?
19 A. The next one is also my entry.
20 Q. At what time?
21 A. 1832.
22 Q. Does this entry then go on to page 66?
23 A. Yes, and it ends at page 66. This is an entry that was sent to us
24 by the municipal staff of the Red Cross in Dubrovnik.
25 Q. Our time is short. So this message has to do with "the agreement
1 reached today with the representatives of the Government of Croatia. We
2 suggest that tomorrow, at 9.00, the ship Arka sets sail tomorrow from the
3 Gruz [as interpreted] harbour, which would be marked with the flag of the
4 Red Cross and carrying humanitarian aid for the island of Sipan. It would
5 then make a brief transit dock in the harbours of Sudjuradj and Sipan [as
6 interpreted]. We ask that this ship be permitted to take Mrs. Kate
7 Stancic to the island of Sipan so that she may visit her sick father. The
8 representatives of the Red Cross Tripo Rundo, Berislav Vacic, Maruska
10 A. Berislav Valcic [phoen].
11 Q. All right. Never mind. So this is a message from the municipal
12 staff of the Red Cross of Dubrovnik; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What about the column "remarks"?
15 A. I signed it because I received this message, and down here I put
16 the municipal Red Cross staff of Dubrovnik. That means that they signed
17 the message.
18 Q. Are there any other entries of yours?
19 A. Yes. There's another one at 1925: "The company Osoj [phoen]
20 reports that the radar Ostra was working and had no further radar contact
21 with Cap Afrique [phoen]. This is a French vessel. So they're informing
22 us about the Situation at the sea. Now they see on the screen four
23 objects. The closest is in the direction of Kp 263 from Obasnik, 27.3
25 Q. All right. Is this your signature?
1 A. Yes, it is.
2 Q. Until the 5th of December, or rather, the end of the 5th of
3 December are there any other entries that you made?
4 A. No. No. No more entries that I made until the end of the 5th of
5 December. Then the 6th of December starts.
6 Q. All right. Tell me, please: Do you know where you were on the
7 6th of December, 1991?
8 A. I do.
9 Q. Will you tell us where you were?
10 A. On the morning of the 6th of December --
11 Q. Just give me your answer to my question. Where were you?
12 A. At the forward command post in the morning. And later on I was
13 assigned to go elsewhere. Do you want me to talk about that?
14 Q. Were you at the forward command post of Kupari?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Were you at the operations centre of the forward command post of
18 A. After having rested during the night, in the morning, around 7.00,
19 I came to the operations centre.
20 Q. All right. Thank you.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Is that a convenient time?
22 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] That is precisely what I wished to
23 ask, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We will, of necessity, adjourn now,
25 until Monday afternoon at 2.15.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,
2 to be reconvened on Monday, the 12th day of July,
3 2004, at 2.15 p.m.