Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7602

1 Friday, 9 July 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. I gather, Ms. Somers, there's some

6 matter to be raised.

7 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. I would like to raise what I

8 suppose is more of an administrative but really it affects the practice

9 matter.

10 At the beginning of the Defence case, the Prosecution indicated

11 that -- and of course the Chamber is well aware -- the arrival of

12 information about the witnesses comes extremely late, and it comes

13 sometimes hours before midnight on the day before or the night before,

14 which was the situation last night as to the witness after the current

15 witness. And I am not clear how to find a solution to it. I know that

16 the Defence also has indicated to me it is experiencing enormous time

17 pressures in the proofing process, and of course we have been receiving

18 communications from the Defence on a fairly regular basis that this is

19 what you can know so far. We have not yet proofed the witness. We'll let

20 you know if any other matters will be gone into. In fact, that makes it

21 very difficult if not impractical to prepare adequately for

22 cross-examination on hours of notice.

23 I had indicated earlier that from time to time we may be in a

24 position to we have to seek deferral on cross-examination, depending -- we

25 know almost next to nothing about the coming witness, the next witness.

Page 7603

1 This present one also was somewhat of a surprise, and there's an issue I'd

2 like to raise about that one as well. But this may cause a continued

3 problem in our ability to have an effective or to prepare effectively for

4 cross-examination.

5 The second matter -- if the Chamber would like me to pause between

6 matters, I will do so, or if you'd like to --

7 JUDGE PARKER: No. Pour it all out.

8 MS. SOMERS: Thank you. The subject matter of the witness

9 presently on the stand was marginally -- part of it was marginally

10 approached during the examination of Admiral Jokic. The -- I seem not to

11 have this in my own folder. The page I have got -- I'm sorry, another

12 folder. But it was never put to Admiral Jokic in any specific way that a

13 particular telephone call or conversation may have occurred. We

14 believe -- we find ourselves raising the spectre of 90(H)(ii) on a regular

15 basis. We believe in this instance it is extremely poignant and at the

16 issue -- I will, at the break, if I may be permitted, present where the

17 reference was to any communications on the 6th between General Kadijevic

18 and Admiral Jokic earlier in the day. The guts of the examination now

19 focuses on an area that was not put to the admiral as one puts the case to

20 the admiral. So I want to preserve that matter for any further

21 submissions that the Prosecution may have to make. But I think the

22 Chamber should be aware of that. It was on 14 April. That much I

23 remember, and I apologise. I thought I had taken with me the particular

24 document.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Now, with respect to the second matter, you say

Page 7604

1 that may need to be raised again later.

2 With respect to the first matter, is there any positive matter

3 that you raise, or you are you just bringing this problem to the notice of

4 the Chamber?

5 MS. SOMERS: It is altogether possible, Your Honour, after hearing

6 the testimony of today's -- the following witness, not the current one on

7 the stand, the Prosecution may need to seek additional time to prepare for

8 cross-examination. And wanted to give the Chamber notice of that in

9 advance. We are concerned about the regularised practice of getting the

10 information very, very, very late, and the generality of it and usually

11 that proofing may yield other matters of which we will at some point be

12 informed.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Is there anything, Mr. Rodic or

14 Mr. Petrovic, that you wish to say?

15 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, first of all, I want

16 to point out that what my learned colleague has just said is true.

17 Unfortunately, it is true. And the reason is that the circumstances under

18 which we have been proofing our witnesses are such that we do not have

19 sufficient time to forward information on the witnesses more ahead of

20 time.

21 We are doing all we can and we understand the problems faced by

22 the OTP. I do, however, wish to say that our problems are considerably

23 greater than theirs. We are doing our best, nonetheless. We are trying

24 to prepare as much information as possible for them. We are pressing on

25 ceaselessly, and whenever we receive information by fax or from our

Page 7605

1 investigators, we forward the information to them.

2 We submitted this set of information last night at 9.00. The

3 proofing began at 1.00 and finished at 4.00 in the afternoon. We are

4 doing our best, nevertheless; however, these are objective factors and we

5 hope we can cope with these factors to the best of our ability. Most of

6 the factual witnesses have already been examined and cross-examined

7 without any considerable problems.

8 Thank you, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. The proofing began at

11 9.00 p.m. and finished at 1.00 a.m.

12 JUDGE PARKER: That last correction only adds emphasis to the fact

13 that the proofing is being undertaken at an extremely late stage, and that

14 is a significant part of the problem. The Defence case has been in

15 preparation, no doubt, since before the commencement of the trial, and yet

16 we hear of proofing of a witness the night before. And it's not just the

17 matter of one isolated witness and a surprise issue that's necessitated

18 bringing in an additional witness. It seems to be a pattern with all

19 witnesses. We'll just have to make the best we can of it as it goes

20 along, trying to keep a fair hand between each side.

21 We'll have the witness in, then.

22 [The witness entered court]

23 JUDGE PARKER: Please be seated. If I could remind you of the

24 affirmation you took at the beginning of your evidence, which still

25 applies.

Page 7606

1 Yes, Mr. Rodic.

2 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.


4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 Examined by Mr. Rodic: [Continued]

6 Q. [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown document D96.

7 Good morning, Mr. Handzijev. We shall proceed with our

8 examination-in-chief. You have already seen this document, and what I

9 would like you to do now is to turn to page 70. Can you please look at

10 this entry at 1349 hours. That's the column where the time is recorded,

11 1349 hours. The entry in relation to that specific time.

12 A. [In English] Yes.

13 Q. Have you read it?

14 A. [Interpretation] Yes.

15 Q. It says here that frigate Captain Handzijev was ordered to call

16 Bileca and Trebinje and to order Captain Kovacevic [as interpreted] to

17 come immediately to the forward command post of the military naval sector

18 command?

19 MS. SOMERS: [Previous translation continues]... Me. I don't know

20 whether counsel said Captain Kovacevic or not, but the entry says Colonel

21 Kovacevic.

22 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I did say colonel. I read exactly as

23 it says here. I said colonel. I think it's probably an error in the

24 transcript.

25 Q. Mr. Handzijev, if you remember, can you please tell us whether

Page 7607












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7608

1 this message or this order to you was in fact carried out.

2 A. Well, most probably it was carried out. Right now, I can't

3 remember specifically. It is a minor order, in my opinion, and was

4 probably carried out by my assistant. In any other case, I am sure the

5 command would have reacted and requested for this to be done again.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is my only

8 remaining portion of my examination-in-chief, and this concludes my

9 examination-in-chief. Thank you.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Rodic.

11 Ms. Somers.

12 MS. SOMERS: Thank you very much, Your Honours.

13 Cross-examined by Ms. Somers:

14 Q. Good morning, Mr. Handzijev.

15 A. Good morning.

16 Q. Who was the Chief of Staff in September 1991 in the 9th VPS?

17 A. As far as I know, it was Admiral Zec.

18 Q. Up until approximately 20th of September, 1991, who was the Chief

19 of Staff in the 9th VPS?

20 A. As far as I remember, it was Admiral Zec.

21 Q. Who was Admiral Zec's predecessor?

22 A. His predecessor. For a while, it was warship Captain Ivo Milisic.

23 I think that's what his name was. He came from Split.

24 Q. [Previous translation continues]... I'm not getting a translation.

25 Maybe I'm -- would you repeat that for me, please.

Page 7609

1 A. I think his name was Ivo Milisic.

2 Q. [Previous translation continues]... think about that for a minute.

3 How long had you been working in the 9th VPS when Ivo -- and what is -- is

4 Ivo a full name, a complete name, or does it stand for something else?

5 Ivo Milisic was the Chief of Staff.

6 A. Right now, I can't remember.

7 Q. Okay. When was the transition made between Ivo Milisic as Chief

8 of Staff and Milan Zec as Chief of Staff?

9 A. Well, most probably when he was detained. Warship Captain

10 Milisic, I mean. I can't remember.

11 Q. Most probably when he was detained.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Why was battleship Captain Milisic detained? What do you know

14 about that?

15 A. Well, since I appeared as witness at his trial and I was there for

16 the entire proceedings, I can tell you that he was detained because he

17 failed to carry out an order for mobilisation, an order given by Admiral

18 Kandic. I'm entirely familiar with this case.

19 Q. Is this the case that bears 211/91 out of the Nis military court

20 that was started in 1991 and the appeal was finished in 1992? Are we

21 talking about that case?

22 A. Well, I couldn't give you the exact numbers or the years.

23 Q. But did Captain Milisic want to stay in the JNA? Did he want to

24 remain in the JNA at the time of the occurrences you just described?

25 A. As I said, I am entirely familiar with this case, with all its

Page 7610

1 details. I remember it as though -- if it was yesterday. We were called

2 before the operations began and before a decision on those operations was

3 read out. We had been called, and the late battleship Captain Djurisic,

4 or Djurovic, resolutely stated: "We are now going into the room, and in

5 the room we shall hear the decision. Whoever is having second thoughts

6 should not enter the room." "Once in the room, there's no going back."

7 He said resolutely.

8 I think my rendering of how it actually happened is quite

9 accurate. And the person that we have already referred to, battleship

10 Captain Milisic, he went into the room, and thereby agreed to stay with

11 the JNA. Now, what his intentions were when he did it, that's not as

12 clear.

13 Q. What was his ethnicity, Captain Milisic?

14 A. He was a Croat.

15 Q. How did he feel about the possibility of mobilisation? You

16 expressed earlier how you felt about things. How did he feel about

17 things? After all, you know him very well.

18 A. I knew him really well. We're family of sorts. His wife's sister

19 is married to a close relation of my wife. But we were on visiting terms.

20 We were close. I knew what his personal position was on the matter, but I

21 believe that he may have been wrong.

22 Q. Why don't you tell us what his personal position was on the

23 matter.

24 A. He declared himself a Yugoslav at the time, or at least that's

25 what he told me, and I couldn't feel that he was actually keeping

Page 7611

1 something secret, because I trusted him very much. Maybe this was not his

2 true position, but what he told me was that he felt a Yugoslav.

3 Q. Now, the proceeding that was lodged against Captain Milisic, a

4 Croatian then Chief of Staff, involved charges of -- let's see. What were

5 the charges that were levelled against the captain?

6 A. When he received the order, I was standing a stone's throw from

7 where he was. It was in the morning that General Kandic's order arrived.

8 I was at the operational centre myself. And I heard everything that

9 Kandic was ordering him, exactly which units he was supposed to mobilise.

10 However, in the meantime, he had left for Trebinje, and the units

11 were never mobilised. There was a huge number of artillery units. When

12 our commander at the time, the person who was the commander of the 9th VPS

13 at the time, or the 9th sector, came, he was in hospital. When he was

14 back at hospital at half past 2.00 or 3.00, he called Kandic. I happen to

15 be there at that point in time.

16 Q. What were the charges that were levelled against Captain Milisic?

17 That was my question.

18 A. I can't remember very clearly what the charges were. Probably

19 sabotage.

20 Q. Probably sabotage. Any other charge?

21 A. That's what I think.

22 Q. Okay. Now, he was a good friend of yours, almost family?

23 A. Yes. That's correct. We used to see each other a lot. He would

24 come to my place or we would go to see another relative, my wife's

25 relative, that sort of thing.

Page 7612

1 Q. On 20th of September, 1991, did you provide information to

2 investigators of a military tribunal claiming to have listened in on a

3 telephone conversation between Admiral Kandic and the late Commander

4 Djurovic?

5 A. Yes. And I was even confronted with Kandic, and Kandic's

6 statements were contradictory in court.

7 Q. And you testified before a military court in Nis? You

8 testified -- did you testify under oath? Did you give an oath when you

9 testified?

10 A. The procedure that applies is the same in all courts.

11 Q. You testified before a military court in Nis about the alleged

12 conversation. So you listened in to a conversation between two

13 high-ranking officers; is that correct? Is that how you gained the

14 testimony?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was this while --

17 A. Yes. Yes.

18 Q. Was this while you were acting as a duty-officer in the 9th VPS?

19 Is that how you listened in to the conversation?

20 A. I can't remember clearly --

21 Q. [Previous translation continues]... you can't remember?

22 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection. My

23 colleague is not allowing the witness to finish answering. Therefore, may

24 he please be allowed to finish his sentence.

25 MS. SOMERS: [Previous translation continues]...

Page 7613

1 JUDGE PARKER: The witness is not answering. That's the point.

2 Counsel is bringing the witness back to the question.

3 So carry on, Ms. Somers.


5 Q. Was this while you were acting as a duty-officer in the 9th VPS

6 that you overheard the conversation, was it a telephone conversation,

7 between Admiral Kandic and Commander Djurovic?

8 A. You mean Ivo Milisic?

9 Q. Did you testify about a conversation between Djurovic and Kandic,

10 or Milisic and Kandic? Do you remember?

11 A. I testified and wrote a statement prior to that with respect to

12 the conversation with Admiral Kandic and the conversation with Milisic,

13 and I also testified about what I heard. And I answered the question,

14 what I heard in connection with the conversation that was held later in

15 the afternoon hours between Captain -- warship Captain Djurovic and Tadic

16 [as interpreted]. So I answered those questions in court.

17 Q. And you were giving information -- you gave evidence against

18 Captain Milisic and you represented certain --

19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise for

20 interrupting. But on page 11, line 10, it says Tadic. The name was

21 Kandic.


23 Q. You gave evidence against Captain Milisic based on words you said

24 Admiral Kandic spoke, that you claimed to have heard Admiral Kandic speak;

25 is that right?

Page 7614

1 A. Well, I don't know what he said when he spoke about warship

2 Captain Milisic or when he was speaking to Djurisic, Captain Djurovic.

3 Would you please tell me that?

4 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could the last

5 question be repeated. The answer is not exactly what the witness said in

6 B/C/S. So would the -- would my learned colleague repeat what she said,

7 because the witness did not say what it purports to say here on the

8 transcript.

9 MS. SOMERS: I will repeat page 11, line 17. Question: You gave

10 evidence against Captain Milisic based on words you said Admiral Kandic

11 spoke, words that you claim to have heard Admiral Kandic speak; is that

12 right?

13 A. That's right. I exactly heard what Admiral Kandic ordered warship

14 Captain Milisic to do, because I was one and a half metres away from him,

15 and the speakerphone was switched on where I was the duty-officer. So the

16 whole hall could have heard the same thing.

17 Q. And this was while you were acting as a duty-officer in your

18 official capacity in the 9th VPS; am I right on that? Did I get that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes, you are correct. But I can't remember whether I was handing

21 over my duty or taking over duty or whether I was just present as chief of

22 the operations centre. I can't remember. But that's not the essential

23 point. I was present, and when Kandic spoke with warship Captain Milisic,

24 I was there, and later on when Kandic phoned warship Captain Djurovic. So

25 that was 2.00 or 3.00 in the afternoon. So I heard it. I remember it and

Page 7615

1 can remember the actual words that were uttered at the time.

2 Q. Did your training -- first of all, did you have training as a

3 duty-officer or an operation centre officer?

4 A. During our education at the academy, we have to go through all

5 stages of training, all kinds of training and all the training for duty

6 officers. And as a cadet, I was a guard for time, then I was commander of

7 the guards. Then I was something that we call SIZ. That was duty. And

8 then further up the line. Otherwise, I personally, when I took over my

9 duties, we have to have studied all the documents regulating our service,

10 all our branches and services and guidelines and instructions, pinpointing

11 our duties. And then this is an ongoing process. We put it into

12 practice, and when our superior officer deems that we are fully fit, then

13 we can take up our duties ourselves without any supervision. So I passed

14 through this entire process.

15 Q. Now, isn't it part of training to respect the secrecy, the

16 confidentiality, the integrity of communications between officers,

17 particularly of superior rank to yourself?

18 A. I think that in moments of that kind, when faced with situations

19 of that kind, and I was the chief of the operations centre, so when I was

20 asked in court, I could not answer otherwise; otherwise, I would have

21 deviated from court principles. Because I did hear the conversation. It

22 was a public conversation. And if that warship Captain Milisic considered

23 that it was confidential or secret, then he should have found a way of

24 speaking without the rest of us hearing, just to lift up the receiver and

25 not the speakerphone.

Page 7616

1 Q. [Previous translation continues]... eavesdropping. Isn't that

2 what you were doing? You were eavesdropping on a conversation that was

3 not your conversation. You did not correctly have the terms of the

4 conversation, and you then went on to relay what you claimed was said in

5 the conversation. You simply eavesdropped, did you not?

6 A. I heard that conversation, and it wasn't only I who heard it, but

7 all the others who were witnesses to it. It was a public conversation.

8 The whole hall and operations centre could hear it. So when I was asked

9 in court were you present there? My answer was yes. Did you hear the

10 conversation? I said yes. Should I have said that I did not when I did?

11 Should I have said in court that I did not? What would you think of me if

12 I were to lie in this courtroom?

13 Q. Now, the charge that was levelled, one of the charges levelled

14 against Captain Milisic, the then Chief of Staff, as a result of your

15 evidence, was a charge of subversion of military and defence capacities,

16 pursuant Article 121, paragraph 1, of the Penal Code of the SFRY. Is that

17 in your view a serious charge?

18 A. That is the most serious charge, whereas I did not accuse him. I

19 just stated what I heard. And I would have felt far luckier had I not

20 heard anything. My conscience would have been clear. But what can I do?

21 I heard it and I couldn't keep it secret. I would have gladly kept it

22 secret. It would have been easier for me to do so and all my relatives

23 and friends wouldn't have spat at me. But that's the kind of man I am. I

24 can't hide anything. I don't keep anything secret because my duty

25 requires otherwise. How would courts be able to work if people hide

Page 7617

1 relevant information?

2 Q. Now, you remember this incident as if it were today. Do you

3 remember why the charge of subversion was dropped, was not sustained by

4 the courts? Do you remember that, as concerning any communication between

5 Admiral Kandic and Captain Milisic? Do you remember what the court said

6 about that?

7 A. I don't know. You should have -- you should ask the court. But I

8 know that he was charged and that afterwards he was sentenced to five

9 years and then replaced. He was charged -- I didn't charge him. I didn't

10 accuse him. I don't know what the court thinks. It's not my business.

11 Q. What he was convicted of ultimately was disobeying an order of

12 Admiral Djurovic, not of Admiral Kandic. Do you want to tell us why he

13 didn't disobey an order of Admiral Kandic and subvert the military in so

14 doing, as you suggested by your evidence that you gave in that court?

15 A. I am not aware of the fact that he refused to carry out Djurovic's

16 orders, and I say 100 per cent certainty that Kandic ordered him that. So

17 I don't like to lie. I don't like to fabricate things. Kandic said it

18 and it's as if it were yesterday. I remember it clearly. Kandic ordered

19 him -- it was only later that Djurovic, when he came, was informed of

20 this. Kandic called him and said, "Djuro, did you carry out that order of

21 mine?" And he said: "What order?" And he said: "What I issued -- the

22 order I issued to Ivo." And he said: "That's the first I hear of it."

23 And then Kandic said: "Oh, Djuro, your left shoe doesn't know what your

24 right shoe is doing." Those were his very words.

25 Q. Now, did you have respect for the court system of your military at

Page 7618

1 the time, of the JNA? Did you respect the decisions of the judges?

2 A. Of course I respected the decisions of the judges. How wouldn't

3 I? It's a ludicrous question.

4 Q. I will read and ask you if you recall, since it was like

5 yesterday -- first of all, what was your -- what is military -- Kumbor

6 military post 4004? What is that? Where is that?

7 A. At the command, with us.

8 Q. That is the same post --

9 A. I think, but I'm not quite sure. I think that's it. But I don't

10 remember those figures.

11 Q. How long --

12 A. But yes.

13 Q. Sorry to interrupt you. How long did you work -- had you been

14 working at Kumbor as of September 20, 1991?

15 A. Well, from the -- from 1980.

16 Q. And you don't recall that the post number was 4004, after 11 years

17 of service?

18 A. They're just numbers. I changed a lot of those military posts.

19 But yes, it probably was. But I'm not good at memorising figures,

20 numbers. You know, once the virus enters the head. But yes, it was

21 probably that post. I was -- had more connections with the command rather

22 than the military post, so when I wrote orders or reports, I would title

23 them "the command of the 9th VPS." So that was the important thing. I

24 suppose it was our military post, but I don't see that it's essential what

25 the figures actually were.

Page 7619

1 Q. From the judgement of 30 March 1992 from the military court in

2 Nis, it is above all necessary to point out that at the trial it was

3 established on the basis of an analysis and assessment of navy command

4 report 32-64, on 25 March 1992, and the report of the command of the

5 Kumbor military post 4004, number 39-55-2 of 20 March 1992. It was

6 established that in the said commands, there are no written or other

7 traces of proof or the content of the telephone conversation conducted on

8 20 September 1991 between the witness Mile Kandic and the accused, the

9 accused being Ivan or Ivo Milisic.

10 In connection with this fact, the commander of the superior unit,

11 the Split military post 5437, witness Mile Kandic said at the trial that

12 he had not ordered the accused to mobilise units. On the other hand,

13 witness Dusko Knezevic said that at the end of the telephone conversation

14 with the accused, witness Mile Kandic told the accused to additionally

15 mobilise other units. Witness Petre Handzijev said that he heard the

16 telephone conversation conducted by witness Mile Kandic and witness Krsto

17 Djurovic in the afternoon of 20 September 1991 and that witness Kandic

18 asked Djurovic whether mobilisation had been carried out, to which

19 Djurovic replied that he had taken measures but that his order had not

20 been relayed to him and that witness Mile Kandic replied that he had

21 issued the order or relayed it to Ivo during the morning.

22 Finally, witness Krsto Djurovic said that around 1900 hours on

23 20 September 1991 he telephoned his commander witness Mile Kandic in

24 connection with the need to mobilise units and that witness Kandic

25 replied: "Didn't your deputy relay to you that I issued an order to you

Page 7620

1 to mobilise everyone?" Witness Djurovic claims that according to what

2 witness Mile Kandic told him, the accused received a mobilisation order

3 from witness Mile Kandic.

4 With respect to the situation described in existing evidence, and

5 there is no other evidence, the court found that there was no reliable

6 evidence that witness Mile Kandic ordered the accused Milisic to mobilise

7 units because witness Kandic asserts categorically that he did not issue

8 such an order to the accused, and he certainly is the one who knows this

9 best. And with respect to this fact, he is the only authentic and direct

10 witness, while all the other witnesses are not direct witness and have

11 testified about what they heard from a telephone conversation between

12 witness Mile Kandic and the accused. Knezevic, that is, from the

13 telephone conversation between witness Mile Kandic and witness Krsto

14 Djurovic, witness Handzijev and Djurovic.

15 In view of this conclusion reached by the court with respect to

16 the fact that there is no proof that witness Mile Kandic ordered the

17 accused to mobilise units, it is clear that the court -- well, it goes on

18 to talk about the description, et cetera, et cetera.

19 What is important is that at the end of it, the very serious

20 charge of subverting the JNA was not sustained because the evidence was

21 not there.

22 Now, if Krsto Djurovic issued an order the next day, which

23 apparently was the next day, not the same day, as you suggested,

24 disobeying an order of Djurovic was punished. But there was never,

25 according to the court that you respect, an order by Kandic, and Kandic

Page 7621

1 himself had the opportunity to come to court and say it didn't happen.

2 Did you ever apologise to Milisic for what you said or did?

3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I object to this

4 course of the cross-examination.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't mind.

6 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I?


8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] If my learned colleague, and of

9 course she has the right to bring into question the witness's credibility

10 if she wishes to impeach him by indicating the differences between what he

11 said here in Court or what he said before the military court, then the

12 proper course, as I understand it, would be to present him with his

13 witness statement, the one he gave before the military court. But doing

14 it this way, to challenge this by juxtaposing the conclusions of a trial

15 chamber which had evidence and exhibits before them - who knows which

16 kind - with what the witness ought to have said or might have said, is

17 quite inappropriate. So if we have the transcript of this witness, then I

18 think he ought to be shown the transcript and that the examination should

19 be conducted on the basis of that transcript and his statements, and then

20 the Trial Chamber can draw their conclusions on the basis of all those

21 facts. Whereas if we just hear the judgement and we don't know the

22 reasons stated, I don't think we can continue in this way.

23 Thank you, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Petrovic. There would normally be

25 much in what you say, but in this case the witness has had no difficulty

Page 7622

1 saying what evidence he did give and that the charge, or one of the

2 charges, the critical charge, was based upon that evidence. And we will

3 no doubt receive a copy of the decision of the court, but it has been read

4 to the witness, in which it is clear that the person whom the witness said

5 gave the order, gave evidence to the court that he did not give that order

6 in that conversation, and the court therefore accepted that evidence and

7 preferred that over the evidence of the present witness. Surely all that

8 has been established without controversy or uncertainty. Just what, if

9 anything, this Tribunal might make of that is yet a different question.

10 But the basic facts appear in this case to be not disputed, and therefore,

11 what has occurred is one to which I think no valid objection can be made,

12 subject, of course, to us receiving the actual authenticated decision at

13 an appropriate time.


15 Q. Did you ever offer an apology to Captain Milisic?

16 A. Please, may I be allowed to explain? Since you've been doing so

17 much reading --

18 Q. [Previous translation continues]... apology?

19 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, please might the

20 witness be allowed --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You have asked me a great number of

22 things. Now, you give me a chance to explain and listen to me for a

23 change.

24 JUDGE PARKER: If you would just listen to the questions put to

25 you and answer those questions. A little later, you can be asked again

Page 7623

1 about this by the other counsel, and if you have further explanations that

2 you want to give, you will be able to give them. So don't be disturbed

3 that you are being gagged and precluded from giving your view. But it

4 will be up to counsel for the Defence whether it wants to pursue the

5 matter further with you. Now, if you would listen to the questions being

6 put to you and try and answer those questions and not anything else.

7 Thank you.


9 Q. Did you ever offer an apology to Captain Milisic?

10 A. I'm happy to have you ask that question. I did not offer an

11 apology, but, you see, there's always some justice, and the truth and

12 justice will win out. A month ago, or perhaps two months ago, my wife's

13 cousin from Kula came to Split. He's in Pula. He came to Tivat,

14 actually, and he came to see us, not to me personally, but -- because I

15 live with a cousin of mine. So he was there accommodated for three days,

16 living with us.

17 Q. [Previous translation continues]... want to talk about matters.

18 My question was: Did you ever offer an apology to Captain Milisic? It is

19 a very simple question. A yes or a no.

20 JUDGE PARKER: And the answer has been given. No. If you want to

21 explore it further with questions, do so.

22 MS. SOMERS: I do not.

23 JUDGE PARKER: If not, move on.


25 Q. Did you ever --

Page 7624

1 A. Please may I be allowed to finish.

2 JUDGE PARKER: [Previous translation continues]... question, no.

3 MS. SOMERS: Thank you very much.

4 JUDGE PARKER: It will be up to --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But Your Honours, the first thing

6 I'm going to say is important. Milisic sent greetings via this man and

7 said, "Veso, tell Pere that I'm not angry at him at all." The man is

8 alive, so you can ask him. And he said to him, "Pere, I'm not angry with

9 him at all." So that answers you.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Well, I'm glad you've managed to get that off your

11 chest.

12 MS. SOMERS: Thank you very much, Mr. Handzijev.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I'm even more thankful for

14 that.


16 Q. Yesterday you were asked about subordination to the military naval

17 district. I would ask the usher, please, to show D44, please, if I may.

18 The exhibit before you is an exhibit that the Defence has offered to this

19 Court, and I would ask you to take a look at the information in it and

20 particularly turn your attention to page 2 in your language, or in --

21 maybe it's not in your language, in B/C/S. Page 2, point D.

22 A. I've found it, yes. I didn't think I had it, but I've found it,

23 yes.

24 Q. Okay. Could you please be good enough to read that out loud, if

25 you don't mind.

Page 7625

1 A. You mean B?

2 Q. No. I mean D, as in Don.

3 A. Oh, D. I see it, right. The 9th VPS with the 4th Battalion of

4 the 472nd Motorised Brigade will use land forces in coordinated action

5 with the Titograd TO Brigade to defeat enemy forces and take control of

6 Prevlaka and will use sea forces to control entry to the Bay of Kotor. It

7 will prevent the enemy from manoeuvring or operating and will provide

8 naval artillery support to land forces and is to be in a state of

9 readiness to conduct a seaborne landing if the need arises.

10 Q. And could you look at the very end of this document and indicate,

11 please, whose signature is on that, where it comes from, what formation it

12 comes from.

13 A. The 2nd Operational Group, Lieutenant Colonel General Jevrem

14 Cokic.

15 Q. Had you ever had dealings with Colonel General Cokic? Did you

16 know who he was?

17 A. Well, I don't think I had any dealings with him. I remember him.

18 But I don't remember having had any dealings with him.

19 Q. Do you remember what happened to Captain Djurisic -- Djurovic,

20 excuse me. I beg your pardon. Djurovic.

21 A. When warship Captain Djurovic was hit, the helicopter, at that

22 time I was near the area. I was around the village of Komi [as

23 interpreted] on the road to Cilipi, and I was there with the chief of

24 artillery and another man, a reservist. That's where we were. I was

25 free, so I decided to go and take a look at what was happening over there,

Page 7626

1 the situation over there.

2 Q. Did you come to learn about -- when you say I decided to take a

3 look at what was happening over there, were you referring to the incident

4 with the helicopter?

5 A. I was at that position before the helicopter arrived. We saw the

6 helicopter when it was flying towards the Konavle ridge. That's the name

7 of the area. And we saw him make a circle, and suddenly we couldn't hear

8 the sound of the helicopter any more. He went round Cilipi and returned

9 to the village of Komaja where there was operations going on. Suddenly we

10 didn't hear any noise, any -- the noise of the helicopter, and later we

11 learnt that the helicopter had been hit and that Cokic was in it, it

12 appeared, and that the helicopter was hit and that that's when our

13 commander was killed.

14 Q. So you knew of Colonel General Cokic. You knew that he was in the

15 helicopter, you knew that he was a player in theatre? Just yes or no.

16 A. Well, yes. But I learnt later on that he offered Captain --

17 warship Captain Djurovic to go with him, but I didn't know while he was

18 actually flying. We didn't know who was in the helicopter when it was up

19 in the area. This is something that we learnt later on.

20 Q. Had you familiarised yourself, as an operations officer, had you

21 familiarised yourself with this document which is labelled D44 at the

22 time?

23 A. Well, let me tell you. Maybe I saw it, maybe I didn't see it.

24 These are not my documents. These are documents of the command. I don't

25 remember. These are documents that higher authorities, higher commands,

Page 7627

1 handle.

2 MS. SOMERS: If you would be good enough to show P119 and P121,

3 please. I think if we look at the document, dated the - let's see -

4 24th -- 23rd of October. I think that's P121, if I am not wrong. I'm

5 sorry. P119 is dated 24th of October. And if you look at -- well, we've

6 got two.

7 Q. Would you look at P121. I know it's funny that they have opposite

8 higher numbers. But P121 first and then P119.

9 Mr. Handzijev, do you have in front of you P121, which is an order

10 dated 23rd of October, 1991? It is addressed to the command of the

11 9th VPS and the 472nd Motorised Brigade. Do you see that? Do you see

12 that?

13 A. I see it just fine.

14 Q. And it's a -- it's basically a combat order. And whose signature

15 or whose name is at the bottom of the order, if you can see, please?

16 A. Major General Pavle Strugar.

17 Q. Did you familiarise yourself at the time with this order? Were

18 you at Kumbor during this time, 23 October 1991?

19 A. I was in Kumbor. But as for this document, I'm not the person to

20 whom this document is submitted. It can be seen very nicely here. I am

21 the operations centre, so such orders are not given to me. There's no

22 need to give them to me.

23 Q. You are an operations centre officer; is that right? You were at

24 the time. Excuse me.

25 A. Yes.

Page 7628

1 Q. Are you indicating to us that one of your functions is not the

2 transmittal of orders and other vital information from the theatre of

3 combat?

4 A. That is transmitted to my superior. And now the superior does

5 familiarise us with certain things, as he deems necessary. But the

6 service that I performed in peacetime, as a duty-officer, well, that's a

7 different question altogether. I have my immediate superior officer.

8 Q. Now, on the 23rd of October the activity discussed is not activity

9 of peacetime. Are you saying you did not familiarise yourself with this

10 particular -- the content of this document and/or this document?

11 A. I was not familiar with this document.

12 Q. Would you please, Madam Usher, show P, I believe it is 119, which

13 is the second document, dated 24 October.

14 Now, this document is addressed -- it is from the command of the

15 2nd Operational Group, addressed to the 2nd Corps, the 37th Corps, the

16 9th VPS, and the 472nd Motorised Brigade. It's a decision for further

17 action. And could you tell us, please: At the end of the document

18 under -- whose name appears at the end of the document?

19 A. Again, General Pavle Strugar.

20 Q. At the time - the time being 24 October 1991 - had you

21 familiarised yourself with this document that was addressed to your

22 formation, the 9th VPS?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, you were asked a question by counsel referring to

25 a matter in the war diary, which is D96, the war diary for Kupari. I

Page 7629

1 would like to ask you, though: Where is the war diary, or the log, which

2 you indicate was required to have been kept, for your operations centre?

3 A. I did not quite understand. Where it was or where it is now?

4 Q. [Previous translation continues]... now?

5 A. I have no idea. I've been a pensioner since 2000. It has to be

6 in archives. This is a lasting document. It has to be in the archives of

7 the 9th VPS.

8 Q. When you became aware that you would be giving evidence before

9 this Tribunal, did you attempt to familiarise yourself with the events

10 over which you would have responsibility for documenting by seeking the

11 log for your formation? I'm sorry. For your operations centre. Excuse

12 me.

13 A. I was informed that this logbook went missing.

14 Q. Who informed you of that?

15 A. My judge, Mr. Rodic.

16 Q. And went missing. Where should it have been that it went missing?

17 What were you told about that?

18 A. Well, when I was made this offer to testify, the first thing that

19 crossed my mind was that logbook, because everything is regulated in that

20 logbook, everything is written in that logbook. So every order, every

21 contact, the main things that happened. So the first thing that crossed

22 my mind was the logbook.

23 As a matter of fact, when Mr. Rodic and I talked, he said, "No

24 problem. I'll go to the archives to look for the logbook." Or rather, I

25 said that I would go to the archives to look this up in the logbook, and

Page 7630

1 he said, "Don't bother. It's not there."

2 Q. Did you try to go anyway?

3 A. I didn't. I didn't. I mean, I believed him. To tell you the

4 truth, I didn't have the time to either.

5 Q. And when was it that you were invited to testify? I'm sorry. I

6 think you said, "When I was made this offer to testify," on page 27,

7 line 5. When was that offer to testify made?

8 A. Well, just let me think. I don't know exactly. Mr. Rodic will

9 know. Was it 15 or 20 days before I came here? I think, around that

10 time.

11 Q. Now, without giving details, I don't want to intrude on your

12 privacy, but could you tell us what city you live in now and what republic

13 where you're currently residing, just generally. Not street or anything

14 like that.

15 A. Well, I live in the small town of Tivat, in Montenegro.

16 Q. Now, Kumbor, where your command post was during the time that

17 we're discussing, in which republic is Kumbor?

18 A. Also in Montenegro.

19 Q. And in which republic is Kupari?

20 A. In Croatia.

21 Q. And in which republic is Trebinje?

22 A. Republika Srpska.

23 Q. Which is part of Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?

24 A. Well, most probably. I think so, yes.

25 Q. Would you describe for us, please: Did you work in shifts in the

Page 7631

1 operations centre? Give us an idea of what your -- how your work

2 logistically was. Did you work shifts? Were they regular? Were they

3 day, night, alternated? Help us out with that, please.

4 A. Well, we worked in shifts, for the most part. That's right. For

5 example, I would be there until 1.00 as the operations officer, the

6 professional. So there were mainly people coming from the rear or from

7 the command, and then there was this list of duty officers, and they were

8 sort of assistants and they were there from midnight until the morning.

9 That's how they were on duty.

10 Q. What was your duty shift 5 December 1991? What shift did you work

11 on the 5th of December, 1991?

12 A. I don't know whether I was on duty on the 5th of December or

13 whether I was on duty on the 6th of December, I think. In view of the war

14 logbook, Kozaric told me to look for Colonel Kovacevic, so that's probably

15 when I was on duty. And if the war logbook were here, I would have

16 certainly been able to find this, when I was on duty.

17 Q. So your only recollection of anything about the 6th would have

18 been what was in the war logbook?

19 A. Well, that document would be sufficient to remind me that I was

20 working on that day. But that doesn't matter, because as duty-officer at

21 the operations centre, it was my duty to be present at the centre every

22 day. And actually, this duty was only formally in shifts. We were

23 supposed to work together, not even two people were sufficient. We would

24 get reinforcements. We had two men there in addition. So it doesn't

25 matter whether I was on duty or not. I was there non-stop practically.

Page 7632

1 Only sometimes I'd go out on a particular task or whatever, but ...

2 Q. So on the 5th of December, were you in the operations room,

3 hearing transmissions, receiving telephone calls, doing what operations

4 officers are known to do?

5 A. I've said that we were permanently there and that we complemented

6 each other. And it was in this entire period. There were four

7 professionals, four of us were professionals. And I said very nicely

8 yesterday: We had a hundred tasks, and I was personally sought by the

9 mothers, because I was well known throughout the former Yugoslavia. They

10 were looking for me personally because I was the most persistent person in

11 this respect. I was looking for their sons, and I was trying to establish

12 telephone contact for them. So I don't know how the word spread, but they

13 were looking for me personally.

14 Q. Thank you. On the 5th of December, what calls, what messages,

15 what information did you take down, receive, and transmit? Can you tell

16 us that, please?

17 A. I cannot remember. You just have to remind me with something. I

18 can't really say anything just off the cuff.

19 Q. What about on the 4th of December? What information, messages,

20 phone calls did you receive?

21 A. I don't remember. I don't remember now. But if you were to show

22 me a document, perhaps it would remind me. Of course I received messages.

23 We received different messages.

24 Q. And on the 7th of December, 1991, what messages, phone calls,

25 information did you receive and transmit?

Page 7633

1 A. What do you mean specifically? Well, different information,

2 different messages. A hundred telephone calls a day. I can't remember

3 exactly what you mean -- I mean what you're interested in.

4 Q. What happened in the Dubrovnik area on the 6th of December? Tell

5 us your understanding of what happened, please.

6 A. This is my prism. First of all, you've reminded me just now when

7 you said what happened. I know what happened. There were preparations

8 for negotiations. I personally, as a human being, was most pleased. I

9 mean, I'd been wearing boots for a year, wouldn't take them off. So when

10 I heard about this, I mean I remember these messages that this boat was

11 supposed to come from Split, or rather, this minister was supposed to come

12 for these negotiations in Cavtat. So I was really pleased about that.

13 But then on the 6th, on the 6th I was really surprised, I mean surprised.

14 This optimism of mine became pessimism.

15 The negotiations were gladly expected. But what happened,

16 happened. There were people dead, dead on both sides, in fact. And as I

17 said yesterday, I listened to a conversation. I don't know who Rudolf was

18 talking to. He probably used Radio Dubrovnik, Radio Bar, that connection,

19 communication line, and then our operations centre. I wasn't there, but I

20 did -- when I came in, I realised that something was happening, and I know

21 that Rudolf was in a panic and he was saying that that whole old nucleus

22 was on fire. There's general panic. There are people dead. And I was

23 surprised. We were just caught out. So perhaps that's what you referred

24 to. This was from 9.00 onwards. I don't know the exact time.

25 Q. Can I ask you.: You said the whole old nucleus was on fire. What

Page 7634

1 were you referring to, or what was he referring to, as you understood it?

2 A. Well, the Old Town. That's what I understood him to mean. And

3 sometimes this was used for propaganda purposes, this whole sort of panic.

4 So I wasn't sure whether it was propaganda or whether it was true, whether

5 it was true or not. Now, if something is really on fire, you can't hide

6 that, and of course the European Mission was there and the observers were

7 there observing. So quite simply, to be quite frank, I expected peace and

8 I became very pessimistic because I wasn't expecting war.

9 Q. Let me ask you --

10 A. That 6th.

11 Q. You just told us that sometimes this was used for propaganda

12 purposes, this whole sort of panic. Now, when a call comes in to you

13 which tells you that the Old Town of Dubrovnik is on fire, whether you

14 subjectively believe it is true or not, what do you do about it? I mean,

15 just in case it's true, what do you do about it? What is your course of

16 action?

17 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that was not the

18 witness's statement, that he was called, as we all remember. He listened

19 to the conversation between Rudolf and someone else. He's not the one who

20 was called by Rudolf. So could the witness's evidence please be followed

21 carefully.

22 MS. SOMERS: Shall I rephrase it to say that the conversation on

23 which you eavesdropped, in which you gained information that the Old Town

24 of Dubrovnik was on fire, now, what did you do about it? Did you pretend

25 not to hear the conversation because you were eavesdropping or did you

Page 7635

1 decide that you should take some action? Tell us what you did about it.

2 A. Well, this part of the conversation, I think it was the end of the

3 conversation. I cannot tell you exactly whether he talked to Jokic or

4 Jeremic, because Jeremic was liaison officer on our side with the European

5 Mission. And at any rate, all these protests went through Jeremic. I

6 cannot say anything for sure now. I don't know whether at that moment I

7 was at the operations centre listening to something else, but I walked in

8 and I heard Rudolf panic-stricken. I didn't even know it was Rudolf, you

9 see. It was only later that my assistant who was there who had turned

10 this on -- I mean, he's the one who establishes this communication. I

11 mean, it's only later that I found out that this was Rudolf. I heard that

12 there was a fire, that there were dead people. And then there is the

13 five-pointed star up there, soldiers, barrels pointing at town. That's

14 what I heard. And now what did I do? I mean, as a professional soldier,

15 first I have to see whether it is correct, whether it is propaganda. But

16 later on, when I found out that there were some actions taking place there

17 and that the members of the ZNG were firing from Dubrovnik, that is the

18 information I received, that they were opening mortar fire and this --

19 these -- with the PAM guns, 20-, 30-millimetres, and they were firing at

20 our forces that were on Srdj. We were nearby. I mean --

21 Q. What did you do about it?

22 A. What could I do about it? I mean, I'm not somebody who can do

23 something about it. I mean, in the meantime -- actually, I don't know how

24 much time had elapsed, but then Kadijevic called. I don't know if it was

25 an hour later or whatever. But at any rate, it was all up to midday.

Page 7636

1 Q. Did you --

2 A. Then --

3 Q. Excuse me for cutting you off. Did you, as the operations officer

4 on duty, did you inform your superiors of the content of the call which

5 you had overheard about what Mr. Rudolf said was happening in Dubrovnik?

6 Yes or no.

7 A. I mean, I -- well, this was just a transit conversation, this

8 conversation about the cease-fire. I mean, who could I tell about this?

9 Our command had probably received this already. It can only be sent to

10 them. So then if Rudolf went -- well, I can't remember now who it was, I

11 mean who this assistant of mine was. It was Radio Dubrovnik, Radio Bar.

12 And Radio Bar, in our case --

13 Q. Did you inform your superiors about the content of the call that

14 you were listening to, to the effect that Dubrovnik was on fire? Yes or

15 no.

16 A. My superiors were all at the forward command post, so we were just

17 transit. This was transit communication. And my superior officers were

18 probably already listening to all of this there at the forward command

19 post.

20 Q. And did you confirm with the forward command post that your

21 superior officers were indeed there? Did you do what you were supposed to

22 do and confirm that and transit the information?

23 A. I mean, I heard this, but he had already been put through, and

24 they listened to that. My superiors heard that. And at that moment, we

25 found out that there was fighting there at Srdj, that our people were up

Page 7637

1 there, Zec and the commander, that they were all in the area and there's

2 nothing for us to confirm. I mean, we're there just to transit to the

3 command -- I mean, unless we were given a direct order to convey something

4 to them.

5 Q. If the missing log from your operations centre should ever

6 surface, will we find an entry in there by you as to this conversation

7 that you overheard by a man who was identified to you, you say later, as

8 Mr. Rudolf, about Dubrovnik and the Old Town being on fire? Will we find

9 that entry there?

10 A. I don't know. I mean, I'm not sure. I mean I cannot say anything

11 with certainty.

12 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, would this be a convenient time for a

13 break? I'd like to get my voice back.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, it certainly would be.

15 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Somers.

18 MS. SOMERS: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

19 Q. Mr. Handzijev, you had told us just before the break in response

20 to my question about: Did you confirm with the forward command post that

21 your superior officers were indeed there? You said: "My superiors heard

22 that. And at that moment, we found out that there was fighting there at

23 Srdj, that our people were up there, Zec and the commander, that they were

24 all in the area, and there's nothing for us to confirm. I mean, we're

25 just there to transit to the command."

Page 7638

1 Now, Zec and the commander. Whom did you mean? Zec we know.

2 Which commander were you referring to?

3 A. I meant the commander who was there at the forward command post of

4 the 9th VPS, the forces that were engaged in fighting. That was Admiral

5 Jokic. Jokic and Zec were there, and we had been informed.

6 Q. I'm sorry. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you. Jokic was where?

7 Where was Jokic?

8 A. Jokic, according to my information, was in the area now, the

9 forward command post or in Cavtat. I don't know. But he was in the area.

10 Right now, I can't remember his exact whereabouts at the time. That area

11 was always the same thing for me, the forward command post, Cavtat. He

12 was somewhere in that area.

13 Q. Now, you are aware, then, at this point, from what we're seeing as

14 of the time of this message coming in, that there is combat going on, that

15 units of the 9th VPS are involved, and that when you refer to fighting at

16 Srdj, then these units are involved in that fighting. Do we understand

17 each other on that point?

18 A. I don't think I understand your question.

19 Q. You mentioned that Srdj had some fighting on it. You said: "My

20 superiors heard that, and at the moment we found out there was fighting

21 there at Srdj, that our people were up there, Zec and the commander."

22 So we understand each other in that some officers who were -- some

23 persons who were part of the 9th VPS were at Srdj, and -- as you

24 understand it, and that there was combat activity going on? Can we start

25 from that point? Is that correct?

Page 7639

1 A. Well, that's not quite right. I didn't say that the officer had

2 gone to Srdj or anywhere. I didn't know where they were, whether on

3 Srdj -- I didn't know where they were. I knew that they were in the

4 area, but I didn't know exactly where the commander Admiral Jokic, Admiral

5 Zec. I'm not sure where they were, the forward command post or somewhere

6 near, maybe en route. We simply didn't have that kind of information.

7 I'm not sure if you understand me.

8 Q. Well, I'm going to try. Now, who is Gavro Kovacevic, Colonel

9 Gavro Kovacevic? Do you know who that was, is?

10 A. Gavro Kovacevic was the assistant commander for the land forces or

11 for the infantry. He is a colonel by rank, and he was supposed to be also

12 at the forward command post at that point in time. So according to the

13 dispatch that I received, I was supposed to call him, but he was not

14 present there, and his presence was needed, because they were looking for

15 him urgently. Probably something to do with the equipment. I'm not sure

16 why they were looking for him, but most probably that was the reason, and

17 most probably we eventually found him. I just can't remember whether we

18 did or not. We probably found him. But since it was urgent and since he

19 was needed, we probably found him.

20 Q. Now what. Many now, the order -- I'm sorry, but the transmission

21 you referred to, I guess, is the one that was read to you this morning on

22 page 70 of the Kupari log, at 1349, where it says: Frigate Captain

23 Handzijev was ordered to call Bileca and Trebinje and to immediately order

24 Colonel Kovacevic to come to the IKM KVPS."

25 Now, was it your understanding that if you were to call Bileca and

Page 7640

1 Trebinje that -- to get Colonel Kovacevic, that he was in that area?

2 Would that have been your understanding?

3 A. Well, my understanding -- what you're asking me about, they knew

4 approximately at the forward command post, they knew where Kovacevic was,

5 since they ordered me to find him in Trebinje or Bileca. So they knew.

6 He's their own man, and he worked with them at that command.

7 Q. Now, which command --

8 A. They knew at every single point in time Kovacevic's whereabouts.

9 Q. Now what is in Trebinje, Bileca? Why would you be -- what would

10 you communicate with in Trebinje and Bileca? Is there an operations

11 centre there that you can tell us about?

12 A. As far as I know exactly what there was at Trebinje, there was the

13 command of the 2nd Operational Group at Trebinje. Now, as for Bileca, I

14 can't quite remember.

15 Q. Now, do you remember, once you got this -- if your memory is

16 jogged and you say this is what refreshes your memory on this, when you

17 got this order, did you call the command post or the command operations

18 centre at the command post at the 2nd Operational Group to track down

19 Colonel Kovacevic and indicate that he was to come to the forward command

20 post at Kupari?

21 A. I personally don't remember this bit of information, because this

22 very task is a task that I charged my assistant with. I may have left

23 later on. I may have been absent from there. But for me, this order is a

24 minor one. Therefore, I did not attach great importance to it. Our

25 assistant probably sent it on or informed someone. But we had a direct

Page 7641

1 communication line with Trebinje. It would have been enough for me to

2 press a button for the protected channel or for the open channel, public

3 channel. It was a direct link. If you want me to, I'll explain exactly

4 how this worked, this line of communication.

5 Q. Why don't you tell us how you communicated directly with the

6 2nd --

7 A. [Previous translations continues]... that switchboard that we had,

8 for example, it was like a small switchboard for communications. We had

9 over ten direct links on two channels; a protected channel and an ordinary

10 channel.

11 Now, on that line, we had first the General Staff, the cabinet,

12 the direct line and the ordinary line. We had the operations centre of

13 the General Staff also on both lines. Then we also had the navy

14 administration also on both lines. We had the main units. And as for

15 civilian bodies, we had the air traffic control at Tivat. We had

16 Radio Bar, a direct link. They had to call us. We had frequent

17 communications from the Main Staff, incoming communications, over the

18 radio, and Radio Bar they only had to press a button and they would engage

19 us. And then I had a line with the commander, with Jokic, a direct link.

20 That's as far as the commands are concerned. I had one with the forward

21 command post, a direct link, both protected and open. And this worked

22 well. I could have put anyone through to anyone else. And then there was

23 a civilian number, and they could have called me while I was manning the

24 switchboard, and I could have held conference calls with all these

25 participants. I'm not sure if you get my meaning. So it was like a small

Page 7642

1 switchboard that we had there. I just needed to press a button for the

2 2nd Operational Group and I would have been put through.

3 Q. And did you -- on a regular basis push that button for the

4 2nd Operational Group and keep them informed of matters that were

5 relevant, matters that should go to their attention? I would assume you

6 would have done that as a good operations officer wouldn't you?

7 A. Well, you know something. When there was something important for

8 them, yes, we would do that. But it was only rarely that my operational

9 centre got in touch with them. There was no need for us to get in touch

10 with them. Perhaps on a couple of occasions. That was perhaps some

11 information that was relevant to them. Not that operational centre, but

12 with my forward command post, we had a line that was open almost all the

13 time.

14 Q. But you would be able, from what I understand, with this

15 sophisticated switchboard you described, you would be able to communicate

16 matters that you thought were important and that you should pass up to

17 Kupari and the 2nd Operational Group and pretty much -- and Main Staff? I

18 mean, you had direct access to all. Now, let me ask -- did I understand

19 you correctly on that?

20 A. Well, we didn't -- let me tell you. We were not a relevant factor

21 in terms of conveying information. We were some sort of transit, transit,

22 you understand. If there was information travelling through our transit,

23 it was like registering things in the logbook. It was some sort of a

24 transit. I would just convey these things. And the end user would then

25 make entries in their own logbook. We were just transit. We were

Page 7643

1 switchboard and people were conveying hundreds and thousands of calls and

2 messages through us, individuals, in terms of providing security for

3 materiel, in terms of relocation. We would just put people through to one

4 another and then information itself would travel on.

5 Q. Now, in terms of information you might consider important, if, for

6 example, I mean, God forbid, but let's say Admiral Jokic had been in an

7 auto accident or something and someone contacted your command post that

8 they needed to get an emergency vehicle to render assistance, would you

9 pass that information on to the relevant superior commands? Would you

10 deem that important information, if a commander of your unit -- I mean,

11 I'm giving you an example, but just as a type of information that might

12 get passed up.

13 A. I'd forward it to the VPO and then on to the General Staff. If

14 there's something that happens to a commander, then you would need to

15 inform the operations centre of the General Staff and the VPO, because

16 that was our first superior command. But we also informed the General

17 Staff about these things, or the forward command post. If they had not

18 been informed, then they, in their own report -- because we were not the

19 ones writing the report. They were the ones writing the report to the

20 command. And we were some sort of supplement there, in a manner of

21 speaking. We were more into peacetime affairs.

22 Q. If we accept that there were combat activities going on in the

23 area of Srdj and that the order to you was to get Captain -- I'm sorry,

24 Colonel Kovacevic back to the forward command post at Kupari, did you

25 link -- sorry. Did you view returning -- I'm sorry. Let me rephrase

Page 7644

1 that. I want to make sure I don't give you the wrong question.

2 Captain -- Colonel Kovacevic was, to your knowledge, also involved

3 that day in the activities that were taking place up on Srdj? Do you know

4 that or not?

5 A. I didn't know that. I didn't know about those operations at all.

6 I found out by accident after I'd heard that conversation. And then,

7 after that, when the chief of General Staff called. It was only then that

8 I found out, at 10.00 or 11.00, I found out that something had been going

9 on over there. It was only then that I found out about those operations,

10 that one of our units had moved on Srdj. That was the information, and I

11 put two and two together. And then later you do find out, because you

12 know we had people coming to the forward command post and people talk.

13 They exchange information. But it's been many years since and I'm not

14 sure exactly how it happened, but we did know that there had been

15 casualties in town and up there also, and that things were on fire. It

16 was no secret.

17 Q. [Previous translation continues]... said came from the chief of

18 the General Staff. You said it was around 10.00 or 11.00. You give it

19 that time frame. Can you be -- can you commit to that time frame?

20 A. No. No. I didn't say I said -- before midday. I'm not sure in

21 terms of time. I can't be very resolute about this. The time period --

22 there were so many things happening. At that time I really can't give you

23 the exact time.

24 Q. [Previous translation continues]... ever surfaces, are we going to

25 find an entry in the logbook by you about a phone call like this?

Page 7645

1 A. There may be one there, but maybe not. It was also a transit

2 call. I'm not saying anything. There may be something. But, for

3 example, if the chief of General Staff had called Jokic, this was a

4 possibility, but it doesn't mean that it necessarily happened. It was

5 just transit.

6 When I received the call from that first person, I wasn't there at

7 the time. I mean, I was around there, but when the General Staff calls,

8 apart from the sound signal, you have a light beaming and it shows exactly

9 who's calling. And when the General Staff is calling, then the most

10 senior person answers the call. I jumped up immediately. I pressed a

11 button. And there you have it. I answered the call.

12 Q. [Previous translation continues]... did you jump up because it was

13 an important person you believed to be on the other end of the line?

14 A. Well, as soon as it's the General Staff and not the operations

15 centre, it means someone from the General Staff, and the General Staff,

16 well, the person who most often called was Admiral Brovet. He called

17 quite often. Sometimes he even called about some things -- some things

18 that should be conveyed or perhaps warnings that he had for us.

19 Q. My question to you is: Did you jump up when you saw the light

20 because it was an important person on the other end of the line?

21 A. Well, no. I think I can't remember exactly how it was. But I

22 know that, for example, someone said: General Staff on the line. The

23 assistant who is there or perhaps talking elsewhere to someone. There are

24 several lines of communication next to the switchboard. There are two

25 telephones. So all in all, I know -- well, I don't know exactly how it

Page 7646

1 was. It wasn't yesterday, after all. But I know that when the General

2 Staff calls, all in all, I personally picked up the phone.

3 Q. Now --

4 A. Or answered that call. That much is certain.

5 Q. A call from the General Staff -- you described, for example, the

6 order to go and find Colonel Kovacevic as minor, in your eyes. That minor

7 point made it into -- that minor point, as you see from the papers in

8 front of you, did make it into the logbook for Kupari. Were you able, in

9 reviewing -- did you review this logbook in its entirety, this Kupari

10 section that was -- you've been asked about? Did you review it?

11 A. Yes, I reviewed it in relation to the dates about the 6th. But as

12 for anything else -- that order, you know, it must be written down. But

13 this is just transit. You know what I mean when I say "transit." The

14 person who -- over there who -- well, they can write it.

15 Q. Right. Now, a minor -- something that's minor, in your eyes, such

16 as getting Colonel Kovacevic, made it into the book. I looked for --

17 through the 6th, and perhaps I missed it, but could you take a look for us

18 and find out if a call from General Staff looking for Admiral Jokic made

19 it into this logbook. Could you just take a quick look, if you don't

20 mind. If you could find that entry for me, I'd be grateful. I might have

21 missed it.

22 A. No.

23 Q. No what? I'm sorry. No what? Are you willing to --

24 A. No. No. I mean, this call, you mean in their logbook, whether it

25 was recorded there.

Page 7647

1 Q. Right. Right. Did you see -- if you would maybe take a quick

2 look.

3 A. As far as I remember, it's not in that logbook. When I looked at

4 it, the logbook from the forward command post, I mean. But that doesn't

5 necessarily mean that they ... What am I supposed to do now? What am I

6 supposed to go through?

7 Q. If you could take a look, please, for the entries on the 6th of

8 December, and if you could find an entry that indicates that General

9 Kadijevic was looking for Admiral Jokic through Kumbor and that there was

10 a call. Do you see it?

11 A. I mean, this logbook has nothing to do with that. That call, that

12 was through us. And now, where I found Jokic, one number or other, I

13 can't remember which phone number I used. But that's not really that

14 important. The important thing is: At the time there was a conversation

15 with the content that I told you about. I am prepared to swear that what

16 I'm telling you is the truth. This conversation did take place at that

17 time, and the content of that conversation that I gave you faithfully

18 reflects the conversation. Maybe Jokic himself will remember, if he's

19 willing to remember the conversation.

20 Q. Maybe you can help us. Yesterday you indicated that you called

21 Kupari searching for Admiral Jokic. Do you find in that Kupari logbook

22 that you have in front of you that -- any reference to your search for

23 Admiral Jokic? After all, he is your commander.

24 A. It's not in the logbook, but if I said that I asked for Kupari,

25 the normal procedure, the principal, Jokic was certainly not the

Page 7648

1 commander. If he had been the commander to ours, he would have had a

2 direct link or communication to the General Staff there, for General

3 Kadijevic would not have needed to call him or to call me or that man over

4 there. Therefore, he would have phoned directly. Now as to where I found

5 Jokic, I can't remember, but the crux of the matter is, we had hundreds of

6 conversations. I called Jokic very many times a day. I would put him

7 through, you know, when I found him.

8 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm sorry for

9 interrupting, but what we see on page 45, between line 8 and line 16, I

10 can't intervene for the transcript itself, but when the tape is reviewed,

11 can this please be checked. Because what was actually said does not

12 correspond with what has been written down. So therefore, when the

13 transcript is checked, can the extra attention please be paid to this

14 section of the witness's testimony. Thank you.


16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. That request has been noted.


18 Q. Can you indicate to us whether or not you know about the

19 connections that exist from Cavtat to Dubrovnik? What do you know about

20 the connections, communications connections from Cavtat to Dubrovnik?

21 A. So Cavtat-Dubrovnik. I knew about that. There was a line, they

22 had one line from Dubrovnik, like I said, through Radio Dubrovnik. And

23 this was the more commonly used line. And there was another line between

24 Dubrovnik and the command at Mokosica, the local command. You could

25 establish communication. And the local command, well, it could -- well,

Page 7649

1 but sometimes the line was busy. Sometimes it was too busy or the line

2 was down.

3 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me, Your Honour. I just want to check the

4 transcript.

5 Q. Can you tell us a little bit, if you're familiar with the process,

6 about faxes. Did you receive and send faxes in the course of your work as

7 an operations officer in Kumbor?

8 A. Yes. Through our encryption officer we were able to send faxes.

9 Q. Now, can you tell us the distance between Cavtat and Kupari?

10 A. Cavtat, Kupar [as interpreted], I have no idea how many

11 kilometres. I don't think I could say. Certainly not more than five

12 kilometres, thereabouts.

13 Q. They're pretty close to each other?

14 A. Yes. Not far.

15 Q. And they're both in Croatia?

16 A. Yes. Both in Croatia, yes.

17 Q. Now, they had direct telephone communication, given their

18 closeness to each other, right, those two locations?

19 A. Probably, yes, but I don't know exactly. I can't say. Well,

20 probably they did have. Logically speaking, they should have had.

21 Q. Okay. Thank you. When you took a look at the Kupari war diary,

22 or the log - I'd really rather call it just the communications log - what

23 was it that you were looking for? What particular entries were you

24 looking for, before you came to the courtroom to testify, you know,

25 whatever time you arrived in The Hague and had a chance to review this?

Page 7650

1 A. Nothing specific, truth to tell. I wasn't looking for anything

2 specific.

3 Q. If you could -- do you have the document in front of you? If you

4 would be good enough to look at page 66, please. Have you found the page?

5 If you could look at the entry for 2155 hours.

6 A. [In English] Yes.

7 Q. Okay. 2155 hours. It says: "Radio surveillance. Ammunition has

8 arrived in Stun [phoen] as well as another thing is and going for

9 Dubrovnik. Frigate Captain Handzijev." Now, tell us about the radio

10 surveillance. What this means, what was your role in this transmission.

11 What is this all about?

12 A. That's for purposes of monitoring.

13 Q. And what were you monitoring?

14 A. May I just go through it?

15 Q. Sure.

16 A. Well, I'm not sure what this information has to do with radio

17 surveillance now. The question is about radio surveillance, what they

18 did. Of course, they were eavesdropping. I'm not sure at all what this

19 information has to do with anything. It was conveyed to me. I was the

20 operational centre, after all, and this is something that I should keep in

21 mind.

22 Q. Were you involved, then, in interceptions of radio communications?

23 When you say "eavesdropping," were you talking about listening to

24 communications of the other --

25 A. Of course.

Page 7651

1 Q. I'm sorry.

2 A. Of course.

3 Q. Okay. And what did you do with that information that you got?

4 What did you -- if you found information that would have an impact on the

5 course of your -- of the units that were in the area of responsibility of

6 the 2nd Operational Group or the 9th VPS together, what would you do? I'm

7 sorry. And the 9th VPS. Right.

8 A. This sort of information, if it was really important, we would

9 convey this sort of information to our forward command post. We would

10 convey it.

11 Q. Who decided if it was really important?

12 A. Who decided? I decided, for example, if I was on duty on a

13 specific day. If it was someone else, then the other person made the

14 decision, depending who was on duty on a particular day. But it was our

15 service, our unit that decided, depending on the degree of importance of a

16 certain bit of information. There were different kinds of information,

17 but mostly we conveyed all of the information that we received. I'm not

18 sure what the meaning is behind this, but that's how it was.

19 Q. And so, as information or intelligence came in through

20 interception, part of your function, as I just understood what you said,

21 was to assess that intelligence and pass it on or not pass it on, as you

22 deemed appropriate?

23 A. Well, I don't know how important a question this is, but we passed

24 on almost all the information, and that's why we were, as I said, some

25 sort of a transit station. All the information we couldn't relay

Page 7652

1 directly -- they couldn't relay directly to them. They could only have

2 gone through us, and that's what we did. I was not the one to say how

3 important it was, but it could have been an innocuous piece of

4 information, and it was a subjective call for us whether we would pass it

5 on or not. Something really innocuous.

6 Q. But in intercepting communications from the other side, which have

7 potentially intelligence value, then you, as an operations officer, also

8 had, as part of your duties, some intelligence function as well, from what

9 you've just described, or did I get it wrong?

10 A. I think you got it wrong. As I said, our role was surveillance,

11 monitoring the situation in our area of responsibility, on the ground, in

12 the air, and also information was part of that. There were war operations

13 afoot. It doesn't matter how you obtain information, whether it's radio

14 surveillance, radar surveillance, but we got the information and we passed

15 it on, sure thing.

16 Q. Where were you in the early morning hours of the 6th of December,

17 please? Tell us exactly where you were.

18 A. I don't know exactly. Perhaps I was at the command.

19 Q. Which command?

20 A. The command of the 9th VPS. And my area, my area of movement, was

21 the operations centre, perhaps my office, the canteen, the toilet,

22 thereabouts.

23 Q. And when you say command of the 9th VPS, are you referring to

24 Kumbor or are you referring to --

25 A. Yes, in Kumbor.

Page 7653

1 Q. Okay. Now, didn't you have several communications from Captain

2 Slobodan Kozaric in the early morning hours of the 6th of December?

3 A. As far as I could judge from the diary, I was not. I don't

4 remember. But from what I saw in the diary, all I can do is look through

5 it again perhaps.

6 Q. You don't remember? You don't remember it?

7 A. I don't remember.

8 Q. Okay. So your recollection about activities in the early morning

9 of the 6th of December would be only what you could glean from or take

10 from any possible entries in the war diary. Is that what you're trying to

11 tell me, tell the Chamber? You don't have an independent recall of that?

12 A. I do not recall. It's like this: You know, some things you

13 remember a long time. Other things you forget very quickly. And it's

14 been 12 years since that time. So depending on the weight of the

15 information and the events and all that kind of thing. Some things in the

16 space of 12 years, even a computer, the virus hits the computer and the

17 information is lost. So ...

18 Q. Now -- excuse me. I'm sorry.

19 In other words, what you're saying is a lot of things occur and

20 you don't have the ability to recall everything. Now, how can you -- how

21 are you --

22 A. Right.

23 Q. How do you know that a call that may have come from General

24 Kadijevic came on the 6th of December?

25 A. General Kadijevic did not call very often, and he did not call

Page 7654

1 unless he had some major reason. We were at peace for a long time, and

2 the most important event that happened was that if it was an important

3 event, he would have to intervene personally, and that was the event.

4 That was the most important event, the major event. So after a long

5 period of time, this happened, those operations happened. And that was

6 the period of time and that particular event when Kadijevic got involved

7 personally.

8 Q. And what operations are you talking about?

9 A. Well, the movement of forces towards Srdj. That's what I mean,

10 general movement, unnecessary commotion.

11 Q. Now, you --

12 A. Only a madman --

13 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you. I apologise. Were you also at the

14 operations centre of -- at Kumbor between the 23rd and the 25th of

15 October, 1991, and the 8th and the 13th of November, 1991?

16 A. I don't remember. But could you give me an event to jog my

17 memory? What events are you referring to.

18 Q. [Previous translation continues].. give me an event to jog your

19 memory. You mentioned operations. I mean, are you aware of any

20 operations that took place affecting the 2nd Operational Group or the area

21 around Dubrovnik or the 9th VPS during those periods of time?

22 A. Well, yes, I do know about one particular operation, and I'll

23 describe it, if you want me to, and explain. This is how it was: It was

24 the landing at Kupari. The landing at Kupari.

25 Q. And when did that take place? Tell us, please.

Page 7655

1 A. Well, I don't know the date. I really can't give you a date. But

2 I do remember the event well, but I don't remember the date when it took

3 place.

4 Q. Let me ask you something. As a result of that landing at

5 Kupari -- up to that time, had the 9th VPS OPS centre been exclusively at

6 Kumbor?

7 A. No. No.

8 Q. Where was it?

9 A. It was out there. When the landing took place, afterwards, maybe

10 one hour later after the landing, we had General Strugar on the line,

11 Pavle Strugar, when the landing took place, and he asked to speak to

12 Jokic, Admiral Jokic. And Jokic came to the phone - and I'm quoting now -

13 did he say, "Mijo, what are you doing? That's not a good thing. What

14 you're doing is not a good thing. Do you know where my forces are?" And

15 he wanted to answer, or maybe he did say something, but he said, "Don't

16 tell me anything now. I'll come and see you."

17 So when I heard this, I was -- felt unrest, because I felt there

18 was no subordination between Strugar, General Strugar, the commander of

19 the 2nd Operational Group, and Jokic. And I came to realise Jokic was

20 working on his own, on his own bat, that the landing had been done that

21 way. I remember that very well. But I can't give you a date.

22 Q. Well, okay. Now, how do you remember this so clearly -- how do

23 you remember those words so clearly after all those years?

24 A. I said: Some things remain deep in your memory. Other things

25 don't. And that's how my brain works, at least.

Page 7656

1 Q. Now, after this landing at Kupari, did anything change in terms of

2 the location of the communications centre? At what point did there become

3 an operations centre, the IKM? When did that take place?

4 A. Most probably after that. I can't remember. I didn't pay

5 attention to it. I know that one of our groups went. We divided up. So

6 probably after that, as soon as Kupari was taken, then quite naturally

7 they would go to the command post. That would be quite normal. The front

8 is moved forwards, and that is why it's called the forward command post.

9 Q. Now, the words that you said, I won't read the whole thing, but

10 Mijo something, something, something by General Strugar, whatever you

11 said. Why did these words -- maybe you can help us understand why these

12 words led you to conclude anything on the issue of subordination?

13 Whatever would have made you think about that in recalling those words

14 that you've just told us today in 2004?

15 A. Well, it's like this. I have to say again, some things I remember

16 well, others not. Sometimes I remember the tone of voice, for example,

17 that was used when a word was uttered. I just understood and came to

18 realise that General Strugar was caught unawares, and he was surprised at

19 what this man was doing over there. And I said that I was between the

20 hammer and the anvil, a rock and a hard place. I expected peace, and I

21 thought that this subordination went from the General Staff downwards and

22 that it was a stable chain of command. That's what I felt intimately.

23 And suddenly I see that Jokic was taking over, taking some action, and the

24 man who, for me, was his superior, that is to say, General Strugar, didn't

25 know about it. So this is subordination or insubordination. And a quite

Page 7657

1 unnatural set of events took place. So he worked on his own, on his own

2 bat. He was launching an operation that he didn't have orders for. And

3 there was an order from -- if there was an order for a landing, then the

4 order should have come from General Strugar.

5 Q. And did that worry you? Did that concern you up to this day, this

6 act? Have you been concerned about that up until now?

7 A. Today, today. What can we do today? I've been cooking in the

8 Balkan cauldron for 63 years. So to take on all that responsibility for a

9 landing on yourself, you know, a landing is a very complex operation. He

10 didn't agree about it with him. You have to have coordination, conjoined

11 forces, support forces, reinforcement from your neighbours. He was just

12 taking it as if he was going to attend a wedding.

13 Q. Let me understand: That it was your understanding from the way

14 you saw things then, from your perspective back then, and maybe perhaps up

15 until this day, that you believe that General Strugar did not know that

16 Kupari was going to be taken and that Admiral Jokic would be involved in

17 that. Is that what your concern has been?

18 A. I'm certain that Strugar didn't know, and I'd cut off my head, I'd

19 pledge that. Strugar certainly didn't know. Strugar was a knight, as far

20 as I am concerned. And Dubrovnik ought to erect a monument to him to

21 thank him for having Dubrovnik still stand.

22 Q. May I --

23 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me.

24 [Prosecution counsel confer]


Page 7658

1 Q. Did you view, as a result of this, Admiral Jokic as something less

2 than a knight?

3 A. Correct. Correct. You put that very well.

4 Q. Could you tell us what your feelings were, what it was that was

5 troubling you about Admiral Jokic?

6 A. What was troubling me about him. Well, I wanted everything to be

7 solved in a peaceful way, that we should all go our ways without any

8 casualties. And Jokic wasn't that kind of man. So for me personally, as

9 far as I'm concerned, he was obsessed, to have his frustrations, the

10 frustrations he experienced in Belgrade, where the mothers attacked him

11 with their umbrellas in Belgrade, to go and do this kind of thing. So

12 that was it. So as far as I was concerned, he was a renegade.

13 Q. You don't like Admiral Jokic, I take it.

14 A. And another thing --

15 Q. You don't like Admiral Jokic? I mean --

16 A. Well, you can conclude that if you like. It's not that I've come

17 here to testify against him, but he has no human qualities, no humaneness.

18 And he's not a professional soldier. A professional soldier does not loot

19 and plunder.

20 Q. Now, let me put your mind at rest. You seem to have been very

21 concerned about an action in Kupari having occurred behind General

22 Strugar's back, and you shouldn't leave here thinking that. If I could

23 ask for a moment that P121, just for a moment, be put back on the ELMO.

24 Do you have in front of you, Mr. Handzijev? I'm sorry. I'll

25 wait.

Page 7659

1 A. No, I don't.

2 Q. No problem. If you will -- if you have the document in front of

3 you, Mr. Handzijev. Can you look again -- you looked at it earlier today.

4 It's dated 23rd of October. It's a signed for -- or it's under the

5 signature of Major General Pavle Strugar and it goes to the 9th VPS. It

6 is a combat order. And if you look at the very first paragraph, it does

7 command the 9th VPS to take sections, including Kupari. Do you see that?

8 A. Yes, I can see that.

9 Q. So your conclusion about what was transpiring then between General

10 Strugar and Admiral Jokic was a conclusion that you came to without full

11 information, and it was an erroneous conclusion. Would you have to agree

12 to that, now that you know what really happened?

13 A. Well, I'm not clear whether the landing has anything to do with

14 this order. I can't conclude that. Because it doesn't mention the

15 landing here at all. And if it's an order, then in the order, it must

16 stipulate "landing." Because that landing needs several days to prepare,

17 and coordination. You have to have a coordination plan. And judging by

18 this order, maybe this is a movement of forces. That would be normal.

19 Tactical movement of forces of some kind. But it doesn't specify landing.

20 Q. [Previous translation continues]... where it says: "You should

21 take four sets of sections," and it describes them, okay, and one of them

22 is Kupari and Cavtat. Do you see that? Just -- if you see it, just say

23 yes. If you don't see it, say no.

24 A. I see it, yes.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 7660

1 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Madam Usher. We've finished with that

2 document.

3 Q. You testified that one function of the operations centre was to

4 monitor air and surface situations. Was that a type of weather monitoring

5 scheme or the objectives of which were to keep units informed of weather

6 forecasts and wind factors and things like that?

7 A. Well, we would receive dispatches. But monitoring, it was done

8 with radars, TISTINA [phoen] was the system. It was a computerised system

9 linked to the radar, the Falcon radar, produced in -- manufactured in

10 Sweden. And that's what we used to monitor the situation. It was

11 automatic monitoring, and we had two other radars as well, Decca radars.

12 And then the data processing was manual and you had the monitoring. But

13 everything in the air was done by radar, radar monitoring and computer

14 monitoring and processing.

15 Q. And if I understand you correctly, the system was in place to keep

16 the units informed of the situation with weather, et cetera, et cetera.

17 A. Weather situation. The facilities. You look at the whole of the

18 sea. We have our territorial waters. That whole area, and we look at the

19 different features, how many have you got on the sea. That is the surface

20 situation.

21 Q. [Previous translation continues]... is that right, is to keep you

22 advised of that information? You had the information, it was part of your

23 system, your very sophisticated system; is that correct?

24 A. We did have that, yes.

25 Q. Did you, on 6 December, learn of calls between Captain Slobodan

Page 7661

1 Kozaric and Captain Vladimir Kovacevic in Brgat and then subsequently in

2 Zarkovica?

3 A. I'm not aware of that. What -- Kovacevic? Captain Kovacevic? I

4 don't know. I can't remember. I don't have it in my memory.

5 Q. Did you become aware of calls between Captain Slobodan Kozaric and

6 battleship Captain Chief of Staff Milan Zec on the 6th of December?

7 A. I can't remember. Perhaps I knew it at the time, but not now. I

8 don't know.

9 Q. Well, the -- other than the entry on page 70, did you become aware

10 of calls between Captain Kozaric and Colonel Gavro Kovacevic on the 6th of

11 December, other than the reference that may have been made? I'm asking

12 you if you know of any other calls that may have been made between them on

13 the 6th of December.

14 A. No. Oh, at least I can't remember. I really don't know.

15 Q. Do you remember calls between - on the 6th of December - Admiral

16 Jokic and I believe it is Colonel Gojko Djurasic of Mokosica?

17 A. I don't know. They might have had direct links, direct

18 communication. So they didn't have to go through us.

19 Q. Do you remember or know of calls between Admiral Jokic in Kumbor

20 and General Strugar on the 6th of December?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You don't remember?

23 A. I don't remember. I don't remember anything about that call. I

24 don't know how it went, what lines.

25 Q. On the 6th of December, did any calls or communications come from

Page 7662

1 General Strugar through your operations centre, any communications or

2 calls that you can recall?

3 A. No. I don't know. I don't remember at all. We had

4 communications with some other command, but I don't remember this. And if

5 it was, it was minor, negligible. I don't remember. It didn't stay with

6 me.

7 Q. It would be about a minor point?

8 A. Most probably. I can only assume that. Don't hold me to my word.

9 As long as it wasn't a major event, I didn't remember it. I just delete,

10 like you would with a computer.

11 Q. Could I ask you, Mr. Handzijev, to take a look at the log from

12 Kupari, please. If you could open it up to page 73, please. Are you

13 there yet? Tell me when.

14 A. Just a moment, please. Yes, I am.

15 Q. Okay. Let's look, if we can, at -- well, two entries. The first

16 one is at 1922, and it is -- it's for Lieutenant General Strugar from

17 Dubrovnik, and it says: "Rudolf. Because the fire is burning in the old

18 centre of Dubrovnik and threatening with horrible consequences due to the

19 lack of water, we ask that you enable the entry of ships with

20 water-cannons whose purpose is to extinguish the fires, from Korcula,

21 Ploce, into the old harbour of Dubrovnik. It is an urgent and necessary

22 intervention. We expect your initial consent, after which we would

23 precisely inform you of the type of ships and their time of arrival." And

24 then it bears, "Minister Davorin Rudolf."

25 The next entry is 1930, for the Dubrovnik Crisis Staff:

Page 7663

1 "Lieutenant General Pavle Strugar gives his initial consent for the

2 arrival of the ships, tugboats with water-cannons into the old harbour of

3 Dubrovnik in order to extinguish the fires. Please inform us timely of

4 the ships' number so as to ensure their unimpeded passage." And at the

5 bottom of the message is "Lieutenant General Pavle Strugar."

6 Did you not know about this communication on the 6th of December?

7 A. No. I'll explain it to you. I said that a possible line of

8 communication between the Crisis Staff and the forward command post

9 directly would be via Mokosica, the command of the place called Mokosica,

10 and I think it was Colonel Gojkovic or something like that, whatever his

11 name was, who was over there. It doesn't matter. But anyway, in answer

12 to your question, not to lose our valuable time. That question will be

13 answered by the next witness, because it's his handwriting, that he

14 received directly, he received this call directly. So you can clear that

15 matter up with him.

16 Q. Did you talk to the next witness about any of this -- of these

17 entries in the logs? Did you have any discussions with the next witness

18 about this, while he and you were in The Hague together, if you were

19 together?

20 A. That witness, who will be coming in here, the next one, he worked

21 at the forward command post, the IKM. So he was the duty-officer there.

22 And you can ask him about all these matters, and he'll be able to tell

23 you. Because they received it directly. I didn't. My operations centre

24 didn't receive it directly. Had my operations centre -- let me explain.

25 Had my operations centre received information like this from Radio

Page 7664

1 Bar -- we did used to receive telegrams, dispatches of that kind. But had

2 I received it, then I would be able to say I conveyed -- that it was

3 conveyed to Handzijev, and Handzijev conveyed it further on up to Strugar.

4 That's what would have been recorded, that would be the entry. But you

5 can see here that it was with the forward command post directly, and if

6 you ask the next witness he'll be able to explain it all to you.

7 Q. My question to you was: Did you talk to the person who is the

8 next witness about your testimony, about the witness's testimony? Did you

9 discuss the case at all together, if you saw each other?

10 A. Well, of course. I can't lie and say we didn't. It's human to

11 talk. It's human to jog each other's memory. If I said we didn't, I

12 would be lying.

13 Q. Do you have any recollection of any particularly important

14 messages or communications from the 4th or the 5th of December, 1991 that

15 might have indicated to you that something was going to take place on the

16 6th of December?

17 A. Yes. On the 6th I knew that Rudolf would come, that he would have

18 a meeting in Cavtat and that a peace agreement would be signed. And I, as

19 a human being, I was happy about that. I didn't know anything else other

20 than that.

21 Q. Did you personally become aware of any communications or messages

22 that came across the operations centre on the 4th or the 5th of December

23 that would have told you that the action that you described at Srdj was

24 going to take place? Did you personally know of anything on the 4th or

25 the 5th of December about that?

Page 7665

1 A. No, absolutely nothing. All I knew was about the negotiations.

2 He was a minister. He was coming to -- for negotiations. How could I

3 know about any actions or operation over there? Only a madman could do

4 something like that.

5 Q. Sorry to hold you up. I just want to find something mentioned to

6 you that you discussed yesterday. I think you -- in discussing what you

7 said was a conversation from General Kadijevic -- I'll just find the

8 reference. Yesterday, I've just -- transcript reference from what I'm

9 able to take out of LiveNote was at 13:30:50, beginning there. Now, you

10 said that Kadijevic asked Jokic, well, I don't know on what terms they

11 were. What are you doing there? Down there? Now either in the singular

12 or in the plural.

13 Whatever would make you wonder whether or not General Kadijevic

14 would have used the singular or the plural? I mean, did you make note in

15 every entry that you make in your logbook the person on the other end of

16 the line spoke in the singular or the plural? I mean, why does that stick

17 in your mind, 13 years, 14 years later? What jogged -- why would you say

18 that?

19 A. Well, I tell you, I don't know. I mean, quite simply, somehow --

20 they were in Belgrade, you see. Now, I assumed, and I think, that they

21 were on two terms, you see. But that's not important. I mean, I told you

22 what the meaning is. I guaranteed that, morally, legally, whatever. I'm

23 not going to lie. I haven't come here to lie. I want the truth to be

24 told. I want you to catch the truth. But in the Balkan triangle, you

25 cannot catch the truth. It seems to elude everyone. Try to understand

Page 7666

1 what I'm saying.

2 Q. What is your native language?

3 A. Ah, my mother tongue. My mother tongue is Greek, and then my

4 second mother tongue was Macedonian. And then Bulgarian. I don't know

5 what my mother tongue is. I told you, my childhood was during the civil

6 war in Greece, and then I left Greece, came to Yugoslavia, and now this

7 Yugoslavia was killed. Well, you know, mother tongue. So I'm a man

8 without a country.

9 Q. And so your concern about the use of the second person pronoun,

10 whether it was singular or plural, in a language that was not your mother

11 tongue, was really that much on your mind, up to today -- or yesterday,

12 excuse me.

13 A. Well, I'm telling you, it's not important. You know what, these

14 people who are close, you see, and I thought that -- well, you know, he

15 was a minister of defence, Jokic was, and this man was in the General

16 Staff, Chief of Staff. And you know, these people become intimate. They

17 become close. And I think that they spoke to each other on "ti" terms,

18 that is to say, in the second person singular. That doesn't matter. But

19 that's the meaning of these words.

20 Q. Now, if we find the missing logbook from Kumbor, are we going to

21 have an entry in there saying General Kadijevic spoke to Jokic using

22 "ti"? Would you have made a note of that?

23 A. Maybe you won't find it. I told you -- how should I put this? It

24 was quite simply transmission. It wasn't an order. I mean, it was even

25 immoral for me to hear this conversation, to listen to it. I could have

Page 7667

1 simply pressed a button and not listened. But General Kadijevic was the

2 chief of General Staff and I was interested in the situation. And I

3 couldn't be at peace. I simply had to listen. I had -- I wanted to see

4 what he wanted and what this was all about. It was about me. It was

5 about my family. Where we're going to be, are we going to go to Macedonia

6 or not. I mean, I think you understand me.

7 It's not moral, it's not what an officer should do, it's not

8 right, but I did listen to part of the conversation. And I'm telling you

9 which part this is, and if this helps you get to the truth, I'll be very

10 happy.

11 Q. Mr. Handzijev, the truth is, there was no conversation during the

12 morning between General Kadijevic and Admiral Jokic that you overheard or

13 didn't overhear; it didn't take place; and that is the truth.

14 A. If that's the kind of information you have, I'm telling you what I

15 remember. I remember that conversation. If you have some other kind of

16 information through some intelligence services of yours, that's debatable

17 too, as far as I'm concerned. I told you, I have no reason to attack

18 anyone. I have not come here to defend Strugar or to defend Jokic. I've

19 come here so that you could grasp the truth. That's why I came here. I

20 am sure that this conversation took place. I vouch that with my own head.

21 I didn't dream of this.

22 Q. The reason why we -- if we ever find the missing logbook from

23 Kumbor, the reason why we won't find an entry about this conversation is

24 because it didn't take place.

25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, objection.

Page 7668

1 JUDGE PARKER: Sit down, please, Mr. Petrovic.


3 Q. Would you please confirm or deny what I've just asked you or said.

4 The reason we won't find it is because it didn't take place; isn't that

5 right?

6 A. No. I'm telling you, I mean I'm not claiming this. Maybe we did

7 register it, maybe we did not. But I think that this was transmission,

8 this was transmitting. So there was no need for me to write it in the

9 logbook. I mean, well, whatever.

10 I mean, if you called me to come here as a witness, I'm telling

11 you what I remember, and now whether it was entered into a logbook or not,

12 well, you know what, there can be administrative errors too. We did not

13 write it down. We are not very tidy or punctual. I mean, not everybody

14 was that pedantic. I don't know if you understand what I am saying.

15 MS. SOMERS: The Prosecution has finished its cross-examination.

16 Thank you.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic, I didn't allow you to make an

18 objection at that moment because it was a most critical point in the

19 cross-examination. Is there something you now wish to raise?

20 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, what my friend said in

21 terms of her tone and the substance of what she said may imply some kind

22 of involvement of General Strugar's Defence counsel in the matter of

23 whether this document exists or not, and I would resolutely like to refute

24 any kind of insinuation if that is what my learned friend wanted to do at

25 that point in time, and that is what I wished to react to then.

Page 7669

1 JUDGE PARKER: I can only say I didn't detect that, so I think we

2 can leave that matter.

3 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Re-examination, Mr. Rodic.

5 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Could the witness please be given P121.

7 Re-examined by Mr. Rodic:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Handzijev, did you have time to read this

9 document?

10 A. No, I did not.

11 Q. Could you please do that now. Are you reading --

12 A. The first paragraph.

13 Q. The order for further actions to the command of the 9th VPS of the

14 472nd Motorised Brigade of the 23rd of October, 1991?

15 A. Yes.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel come closer to the microphone,

17 please.

18 A. Yes, I've read this.

19 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. I would like to ask you, now that you've read this in general

21 terms, in this decision related for further actions, is there any mention

22 of the landing in Kupari as a military operation?

23 A. In any order, in any order, when a landing is planned, then there

24 has to be a separate paragraph about that, and then it says --

25 Q. Thank you. Tell me: When you look at the first paragraph, the

Page 7670

1 last sentence says: "You should take four sets of sections 1:25.000 of

2 that region with you (Dubrovnik, Dubac, Kupari-Cavtat)."

3 From these sections of maps, can any conclusion be drawn in terms

4 of a landing on Kupari being ordered?

5 A. No, it cannot. These are regular sections that refer to this

6 entire area.

7 Q. Thank you. I no longer need this.

8 In the first part of the cross-examination, my learned friend put

9 certain questions to you in relation to Ivan Milisic, the former Chief of

10 Staff of the 9th Military Naval Sector; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Several questions were put to you in relation to the court

13 proceedings that took place before the military court in Nis, in relation

14 to the indictment against Ivan Milisic.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What was the role that you specifically had in those court

17 proceedings? Just tell me what role.

18 A. I was a witness.

19 Q. Thank you. Did you testify in these proceedings?

20 A. I did.

21 Q. In those court proceedings, as a witness, did you tell the truth?

22 A. The whole truth.

23 Q. Please, just be brief and answer my questions. Apart from your

24 testimony in these proceedings, did you confront any other witnesses that

25 were heard in those proceedings?

Page 7671

1 A. I was confronted with Admiral Kandic.

2 Q. Please. On the basis of what?

3 A. Because he had stated that there were so many events that he did

4 not remember that he ordered Ivo -- I mean, it relates to warship Captain

5 Milisic, that he did not remember issuing such an order. Let me explain

6 one more thing now.

7 Then we were confronted, and I quite simply said that's not true,

8 and I said exactly what it was like. And he didn't say anything. And

9 then later on, when we went out, while we were waiting for transportation

10 to go back, we were on our own, and if you don't believe me, the Court can

11 call Kandic. And he said to me, "Oh, Pere, I have a granddaughter in

12 Split." And then it was all clear to me.

13 Q. What was all clear to you?

14 A. It was clear to me that he could not tell the actual truth. That

15 was clear to me. And I did not like the fact that I had to tell the

16 truth. All my friends were Croats. Milisic was my best friend. But I

17 could not lie in a court of law.

18 Q. This explanation given by Admiral Kandic, who also took part in

19 the proceedings against Ivan Milisic as a witness, what he said to you

20 after the trial, as you said, "Oh, Pere, I have a grandchild in Split."

21 In relation to what did he say that? What did he mean by this sentence?

22 What did he try to express?

23 MS. SOMERS: [Previous translation continues]... how does this man

24 know what Kandic meant?

25 JUDGE PARKER: Do you see the point, Mr. Rodic? It is

Page 7672

1 speculative.

2 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour. I'm going to

3 rephrase my question.

4 Q. Why did Admiral Kandic tell you, "Pero, you see, I have" --

5 MS. SOMERS: Same objection.

6 A. Daughter. Daughter. Granddaughter.

7 MS. SOMERS: Sorry, Your Honour. I had indicated objection. Same

8 ground.

9 JUDGE PARKER: I heard that, and you've heard that there was an

10 answer given. So I think we'd better leave that alone now, Mr. Rodic.

11 You've probably got what you wanted.

12 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Mr. Handzijev, were you a witness to the fall of the helicopter in

14 which General Cokic and warship Captain Djurovic were?

15 A. I was a witness when the helicopter fell, because it fell close to

16 us. We were on the road leading to Cilipi, the motorway. And we had to

17 run away when the helicopter fell because the Croatian forces that were

18 retreating from the village of Komaja because our forces were advancing

19 there and then they were walking towards us, towards the road leading to

20 Cilipi. And then we had to go away. We were in a small fiat, the small

21 Fiat car, and we had to flee to Kupari.

22 Q. All right.

23 MS. SOMERS: I'd like to object, Your Honour. The question was

24 that he was witness to the fall of the helicopter. He said, if I remember

25 the testimony, he was in the area of and he heard about it.

Page 7673

1 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I'll move on, Your Honour, although

2 the witness did describe this in greater detail during the

3 cross-examination.

4 Could the witness please be shown P119.

5 Q. You don't have to read everything. Just look at this document,

6 please, and tell us, in your view, what kind of a document is this?

7 A. This is a decision for further action. It is a decision of the

8 2nd Operational Group.

9 Q. This decision was written on the 24th of October; is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. For which time period, to which time period does it relate? Does

12 it pertain to that day or some other day?

13 A. As far as I can see, it pertains to that day.

14 Q. What does this mean, decision for further actions? When are these

15 further actions carried out?

16 A. Once an action is carried out, or when certain actions are

17 envisaged.

18 Q. Thank you. In principle, combat orders and decisions for further

19 actions of the command of the 2nd Operational Group, where were they sent

20 to?

21 A. Their command. It says here quite specifically, the 2nd Corps,

22 the 37th VPS, the 9th VPS, and the 472nd Motorised Brigade.

23 Q. Was the entire 9th VPS involved in military operations in the

24 territory of Dubrovnik and Herzegovina?

25 A. I explained that we were a peacetime command. Our part did not

Page 7674

1 participate in this, so we did not have to familiarise ourselves with

2 these documents.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] We no longer need this document.

5 Q. You described during your testimony work in the operations centre

6 of the 9th Military Naval Sector in Kumbor and numerous activities that

7 took place in that period towards the end of 1991; is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So I am not referring to a precise piece of information now, but

10 in view of these numerous activities, can you tell me approximately what

11 the quantity of information was that came to your operations centre daily?

12 A. There was a great frequency involved. First of all, demands for

13 additional personnel went through us as well, and we had officers who

14 received that. We had two officers who were dealing with that. Then also

15 when relocation started, we had lots of work.

16 Q. Mr. Handzijev, you described these activities, relocation and

17 communication with very many people. My question is: Can you somehow

18 express this numerically? Are you talking about tens of pieces of

19 information or hundreds?

20 A. Hundreds.

21 Q. Thank you. Also during your testimony, you explained what were

22 all the things that were on the premises of the operations centre and,

23 inter alia, you explained that there is communications equipment there and

24 that there is also this desk with the telephone lines, this switchboard;

25 is that right.

Page 7675

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is this desk with a switchboard, does it only have a receiver?

3 And the person talking from that desk, can this person talk only through

4 the receiver?

5 A. There is a speakerphone there, so that is a microphone, and also a

6 receiver can be used. So it can be used as a telephone and as a

7 speakerphone.

8 Q. Were there any situations when calls and conversations would take

9 place through this speakerphone, this Parlaphone, as you call it?

10 A. Yes, speakerphone, Parlaphone. Sometimes they didn't switch it

11 off. It depended on the person who was there on the desk. On the other

12 hand, there can be another telephone line that is open at that moment,

13 so...

14 Q. In the operations centre, were there several persons there?

15 A. Yes. Sometimes there would be several persons. Sometimes also

16 the chiefs of arms and services would come there and they would have a

17 conversation.

18 Q. All right.

19 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, would this be the right

20 time for the second break?

21 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. We'll resume at just after a quarter to.

22 --- Recess taken at 12.27 p.m.

23 --- On resuming at 12.49 p.m.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Rodic.

25 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 7676

1 Q. Mr. Handzijev, from Kumbor, from the operations centre at Kumbor,

2 could you establish the military communication line with Cavtat and

3 Mokosica?

4 A. Yes, we could.

5 Q. Through the Kumbor operations centre, could you put through

6 participants in Cavtat and Mokosica to another participant?

7 A. Yes, we could, through the forward communications centre. They

8 had a small switchboard like we had. They would take up the line of

9 communication and then they would put them through.

10 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, pardon me. But a point of

11 clarification. When a witness says "forward communications centre," could

12 it be identified what is meant by that, please.

13 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Handzijev, can you tell us what this means, forward --

15 A. I said forward command post, the forward command post, IKM.

16 Q. At the command of the 9th VPS at Kumbor, was there a system in

17 place for radio surveillance, eavesdropping on radio communications, more

18 specifically?

19 A. That was not at Kumbor. In the building, there was a special body

20 that was attached to us. They arrived from the PPO [as interpreted]

21 command. That was the role they had, eavesdropping. That's where they

22 were.

23 Q. The transcript does not reflect the command you referred to.

24 Which command? From which command did you receive those? If you could

25 tell us the full name.

Page 7677

1 A. The VPO command. It was a section they had.

2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not get the name that the

3 witness referred to.

4 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. So those surveillance activities were not carried out from the

6 operations centre at Kumbor?

7 A. No. The operations centre had nothing to do with that. They

8 had -- had they had a direct line with them, they wouldn't have contacted

9 us at all. But they didn't. But we were just some sort of transit. This

10 was not our body. This was another body that existed earlier. They would

11 coordinate, they would train, and they would be established up there at

12 Obosnik. If they had a direct line of communication with them, they would

13 have sent them messages, but they did it through us, because we were the

14 switchboard.

15 Q. They also asked you a question about systems of surveillance at

16 the operations centre of the 9th VPS in Kumbor. Can you tell us, please,

17 from the operations centre at Kumbor, what specifically could you monitor

18 or survey?

19 A. The entire situation, for example, at sea, when a ship was leaving

20 the coast of Italy, for example, and then monitored the course of the

21 journey. For example, what the speed of the boat was, what the crew was,

22 what the course was that the boat had taken. It's the surface situation.

23 That's how we referred to it. Vessels, ships, and planes too.

24 Q. Can you tell us what Voji is, V-o-j-i?

25 A. That's air monitoring, air traffic monitoring. They had their own

Page 7678

1 radars. There's a system of communication. They receive information from

2 those radars, transfer them into a computer, and you get an idea what the

3 situation in the area is like. The speed of a plane, at which a plane is

4 travelling, the whole thing. It's a very sophisticated system.

5 Q. Very well. In order to avoid confusion: When you explained the

6 conversation between General Kadijevic and Admiral Jokic, you used the

7 expression "pair see and pair to," [phoen] didn't you?

8 A. Yes. I meant they were saying you to each other, second person

9 singular.

10 Q. You said about not remembering how General Kadijevic addressed

11 Admiral Jokic, whether it was the familiar term of address or a more

12 formal one, "vi," v-i, or "ti," t-i, in B/C/S?

13 MS. SOMERS: Objection, Your Honour. I think he said plural or

14 singular was the term used in the direct examination.

15 JUDGE PARKER: You're slipping back into giving the evidence

16 yourself, Mr. Rodic.

17 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the question is about the

18 grammar of B/C/S.

19 JUDGE PARKER: You can ask the witness what he meant, rather than

20 you telling him what he meant.

21 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Handzijev, your uncertainty about the way General Kadijevic

23 addressed Admiral Jokic, the form of address, what is your uncertainty

24 about? Is it about whether General Kadijevic addressed him in the

25 singular or in the plural?

Page 7679

1 A. As far as I remember, I'm sure that he addressed him in singular.

2 It was a more intimate form of address. That's how it is etched in my

3 memory. Now I'm confused, in view of how much time has passed by since.

4 It strikes me as illogical that they would. So that's why I have this

5 dilemma. But I'm closer and closer to concluding that they addressed each

6 other more intimately, in the singular form, second person singular. But

7 I do have this dilemma.

8 Q. Can you please describe using your own words a relationship

9 between two persons. Therefore, let us not think now specifically about

10 Kadijevic and Jokic. When you talk to someone, when do you use the second

11 person plural and when the second person singular? Can you please try to

12 tell us what this would imply?

13 MS. SOMERS: This question requires either an explanation in

14 grammar or some area that is not necessarily within the explanation powers

15 of this witness, or we haven't established that type of predicate, anyway.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on, please, Mr. Rodic.

17 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Handzijev, do you understand my question?

19 A. Can you please repeat the question.

20 Q. So, when you talk to a person, your decision whether you will

21 address the person with the first person singular or the second person

22 singular or the second person plural, what does that decision depend on?

23 A. If I'm on intimate terms with a person, if we're close or

24 familiar -- but even so, even if I'm on intimate terms with someone, if

25 it's an official conversation, normally I would use the second person

Page 7680

1 plural. However, if we're alone, we would use the second person singular.

2 For example, the case of Zec. When we're alone, we use the second person

3 singular. But if there's a third person present, I use the second person

4 plural, the more formal form of address. If I understand you correctly.

5 Q. Yes, I believe you do. Thank you. At one point in time you

6 mentioned, while explaining the situation with Kupari, between General

7 Strugar and Admiral Jokic, you mentioned frustrations, the frustrations of

8 Admiral Jokic. What exactly did you have in mind?

9 MS. SOMERS: Objection, Your Honour. Speculative.

10 JUDGE PARKER: No. He did express that. You didn't take any

11 further your questioning as to the nature of that or what he meant by it.

12 I would allow the re-examination.

13 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 A. Jokic was the secretary of national defence, and when the

15 operations began, or rather, when unrest began in Yugoslavia, the riots,

16 the women, the mothers, those whose sons were still in Slovenia when there

17 were operations afoot in Slovenia, they went to the assembly and they

18 requested answers from Jokic about when their sons would be back. I'm not

19 sure what Jokic told them and how he explained the situation, but they

20 attacked him with their umbrellas, with their brollies. They wanted him

21 removed from his post, and that's when he was transferred and came to us.

22 That is why I believed he was frustrated. Now that can be taken out of

23 context, but in my opinion that is the explanation.

24 Q. Did Admiral Jokic say what he wanted, what he was after when he

25 arrived in Kumbor?

Page 7681

1 A. Well, you know that there were several informal conversations,

2 contacts, I had sporadically in our spare time, in a more relaxed

3 atmosphere. Sometimes he would say, "Well, I'll have a cup of coffee on

4 the Stradun." I certainly did hear him say that a number of times.

5 Q. Thank you very much. Was this the first time you had Jokic as

6 commander in October 1991, when he arrived in Kumbor?

7 A. He had been my commander prior to that also, before he had left

8 for Belgrade.

9 Q. How long have you known Admiral Jokic for?

10 A. Quite long. Since I arrived in the sector, that's when I believe

11 I met him. He was the chief of the operations and training department for

12 a while. He was the Chief of Staff. Well, he was the commander there, so

13 I've known him for quite a long time.

14 Q. Mr. Handzijev, thank you very much.

15 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this completes my

16 re-examination.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Rodic.

18 You'll be pleased to know that that concludes your evidence. You

19 are now free to go and to return to your home. So thank you for coming

20 and for the assistance you've given us.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, Your Honours, for

22 allowing me to contribute to the work of this Tribunal.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Petrovic.

25 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may, now that the

Page 7682

1 testimony has finished, I would like to make two remarks, briefly.

2 The first remark is I would like to have the tape of this

3 testimony checked carefully when drawing up the final version of the

4 transcript in relation to yesterday's and today's testimony, since a

5 significant number of words - I did step in several times - but due to a

6 lack of time, I omitted several interventions. Therefore, the tape needs

7 checking so that we may have a complete testimony of this witness.

8 Secondly, with the Chamber's permission, I would like to provide

9 an explanation for the grammatical confusion that occurred in the last

10 minutes of the witness's testimony, if I may, that is. From the point of

11 view of the grammatical rules of B/C/S, the language.

12 JUDGE PARKER: I think you have no need to do that. We grasp

13 enough to follow. It's a feature that occurs in a number of languages.

14 MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Even French, I hear.

16 Yes, Mr. Rodic.

17 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we can proceed if you

18 like. The Defence would like to call our next witness to take the stand.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. And who is that?

20 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Jovan Drljan.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. Would you take the card and read

23 the affirmation.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.


Page 7683

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Please sit down.

5 Mr. Rodic.

6 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

7 Examined by Mr. Rodic:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, can you please tell us your full name.

9 A. My name is Jovan Drljan. I am a frigate captain by rank and I am

10 retired.

11 Q. Can you please tell us where and when you were born.

12 A. I was born on the 9th of December, 1938, in the village of

13 Luscani, Petrinja municipality, Republic of Croatia.

14 Q. Thank you. You said you were a frigate captain, retired. Can you

15 please try to compare that to an infantry rank.

16 A. Lieutenant colonel.

17 Q. Thank you. Mr. Drljan, can you tell us about your educational

18 background?

19 A. Primary school in my native village, secondary school in Sisak and

20 the military naval academy at Split, at the Divulje Training Centre of the

21 navy.

22 Q. Do you have any occupational specialty or is that a more general

23 kind of training?

24 A. Later on I specialised for torpedoes and mines.

25 Q. At the beginning of our conversation, since we speak the same

Page 7684

1 language, could you please just pause briefly several seconds after I

2 finish asking my question and then after this brief pause, you provide

3 your answer. It's for the benefit of the interpreters and the transcript.

4 Tell me, sir, please: From what time to what time were you

5 serving in the army?

6 A. As an active lieutenant colonel, between 1961 and the end of 1995.

7 Q. Can you tell us, in this period of time, which garrisons did you

8 serve in?

9 A. The one in Split. However, the destroyer on which I did an

10 internship was being repaired in Rijeka, and I spent nearly a year in

11 Rijeka, then briefly back in Split, after which I got a transfer to

12 Sibenik. I spent 13 years in Sibenik and later got a transfer to Boka.

13 Q. Can you tell us when it was that you arrived in Boka?

14 A. I arrived on the 1st of September, 1976.

15 Q. Did you serve in the 9th Military Naval Sector?

16 A. First I was the commander of the mine hunters in the village of

17 Lepetane. That's where the command post was. I spent four years there.

18 And in 1980, I arrived in the operations centre of the military naval

19 sector of Boka. In the meantime, between 1984 and 1986, I had been sent

20 to Libya, where I taught at the Libya naval academy. After that, I

21 returned to the Boka Military Naval Sector.

22 Q. Thank you very much. Can you tell us about the second half of

23 1991. Where were you serving at that time and which position did you

24 hold?

25 A. In the second half of 1991, I was serving in the Military Naval

Page 7685

1 Sector of Boka at the operations and training department. I was there as

2 an operations officer in charge of planning. All the sectors' plans that

3 had to do with the unit's activities were drawn up by me, and I had an

4 additional duty as a gym instructor throughout the sector.

5 Q. In 1991, did you work at the operations centre of the 9th VPS in

6 Kumbor as a duty-officer?

7 A. I was on the roster, as were a number of other officers, for

8 operations duty at the operations centre, and I was one of those officers.

9 Q. In late summer 1991, did you take part in any military activities

10 outside Kumbor?

11 A. On the 27th of September, I received an order from the late

12 warship Captain Krstic, or rather, Krsto Djurovic, who then held the

13 position of sector commander, to go to Pula, and pull out three patrol

14 boats that were still based in Pula at the time.

15 Q. As you were serving in the 9th Military Naval Sector, who at that

16 time was your superior command?

17 A. Our superior command at the time was the command of the military

18 naval district, VPO.

19 Q. In the military naval sector, in that period of time, did you

20 receive orders from the command of the military naval district?

21 A. Yes. We received orders from the command of the military naval

22 district, just like in the case of this order, where I was ordered to go

23 to Pula. This order had been issued by the command of the military naval

24 district to the sector command, which then carried it out through my own

25 group.

Page 7686

1 Q. Tell me, please: Upon your arrival in Pula, did you carry out

2 that task of moving the ships?

3 A. Yes, I did, with a group of officers and NCOs, and we did manage

4 to transport those ships to Boka. We stayed up there for repairs and

5 maintenance of the machinery on board ship, to capacitate the ships for

6 safe sailing, and they sailed to Boka.

7 Q. Tell me, please, if you remember correctly: When did you arrive

8 in Boka Kotorska, the Bay of Kotor?

9 A. We arrived in the Bay of Kotor on the 5th of October, at 1.00 p.m.

10 Q. Tell me, please: At that time, was the blockade of the Adriatic

11 in force?

12 A. The blockade of the Adriatic, to the best of my knowledge, from

13 warship Captain Rakic, who was acting as a deputy of the Pula sector, I

14 set sail on the 3rd, in the evening, at 2100 hours, and he warned me - I

15 didn't see the order, but he did caution me - that the command of the

16 military naval district had blocked the entire area of the Adriatic along

17 our coast, our territorial waters, in fact, and that I should take care,

18 that I should make myself known to the warships along the way so that they

19 knew we were there and we wouldn't open fire at one another.

20 Q. When you reached Kumbor, was the blockade still in force?

21 A. Yes, it was.

22 Q. Tell me, please: Do you know how long the blockade remained in

23 force for?

24 A. The blockade remained in force until -- I think it was the 11th of

25 October, when an order came from the VPO, the military naval district.

Page 7687

1 Q. And what did the order stipulate from the command of the military

2 naval district? What was ordered?

3 A. It was ordered that the blockade should be lifted for sailing in

4 the Adriatic, which meant that vessels could move around but that they had

5 to inform of them their movement. And this meant the whole coastline and

6 the Dubrovnik area as well, the territorial waters there.

7 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to ask the usher to hand out

8 a document now, please.

9 MS. MAHINDARATNE: Your Honour, may I place an objection?


11 MS. MAHINDARATNE: We just received this document which learned

12 counsel is about to show the witness. It's a document allegedly signed by

13 Admiral Jokic, and it indicates that the Defence had this document during

14 the period that Admiral Jokic was cross-examined, and it was never shown

15 to the Admiral [indiscernible] and about this document, so there's a

16 Rule 90(H) violation here.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Not necessarily. It depends on the nature of the

18 document, whether it has to be shown. Can I see the document, please.

19 I'll see it from Mr. Rodic, so I know I've got the right one.

20 I've got two comments. I see no basis in the document for

21 thinking that there is a problem that it wasn't specifically put to the

22 Admiral. But I equally don't quite see what the document has to do with

23 this case. But if you -- you will know more of your case than I would,

24 Mr. Rodic.

25 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 7688

1 Q. Mr. Drljan, can you tell us whose document this is?

2 A. This document is that of the command of the Military Naval Sector

3 of Boka, Vice Admiral Jokic.

4 Q. And what does the document refer to?

5 A. The document refers to the deblocking of the -- to lift the naval

6 blockade of the ports of the Dubrovnik municipality. He followed orders

7 from the VPO, military naval district, and reduced the order for his area

8 of responsibility, which means he deblocked Dubrovnik, and he mentions

9 that the forces of the first and second ships of the 16th GMO should still

10 be controlled. Continue to control the sea vessels, et cetera, et cetera,

11 preventing the transport of weaponry and so on.

12 Q. Tell me, please: If I understood you correctly, since in the

13 introduction to this document it says: "Pursuant to the order of the

14 command of the military naval district," and then it has the number,

15 "... of the 11th of October, 1991, I hereby order ..." Does that mean

16 that this kind of order was issued by the command of the military naval

17 district to the military naval sector of Boka, the bay of Boka?

18 A. Yes, of course, on the basis of the command's orders. So he acted

19 upon their order. It was written for our area of responsibility.

20 Q. All right. Thank you. Now tell me, please, one more thing. Do

21 to whom was this document and command addressed?

22 A. It was addressed -- I'm not going to read it here, but it was

23 addressed to the 16th GMO, which was engaged in enforcing the blockade and

24 probably the battleship gunboat that was on the assignment at the forward

25 command post in Kupari.

Page 7689

1 Q. I have to interrupt you, Witness, at this point. There's no need

2 for you to give us additional explanations or not to look at the document,

3 and I have provided you with the document so that you can take a look at

4 it and answer my question on the basis of that. So the 16th GMO, can you

5 give us the full title?

6 A. The 16th Border Naval Detachment.

7 Q. And was it in charge of carrying out the tasks with respect to the

8 blockades and all the rest of it?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. To whom was this document also addressed? Take a look at the

11 document, please, in order to answer the question. To which commands?

12 A. The GMO, the operations centre, and the operational group, to the

13 attention of the 2nd Operational Group.

14 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like this

15 Defence exhibit to receive a number, please.

16 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the number will be D105.

18 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. During that period of time, that is to say, towards the end of

20 summer 1991, up until the end of 1991, did the military naval district and

21 the military naval sector carry out any other important activities during

22 that period of time?

23 A. We were on the alert, on a state of readiness, all the commanding

24 officers and units were at their positions in the barracks, until the

25 activities started of refuting Croatian forces from the Prevlaka area,

Page 7690

1 repulsing them. And I at the time was in Pula, however, but I heard when

2 the operation started.

3 Q. Tell me, please: As to this period, the end of the summer to the

4 end of 1991, were there any activities linked to any units of the military

5 naval sector on the Adriatic coast in the Republic of Croatia, for

6 instance, right up to Pula?

7 A. Yes. There were activities, in the sense of rear support to units

8 who were coming in from Pula, Split, Sibenik, and so on, and taking in the

9 ships and the units, the vessels coming in, security, accommodation, and

10 all the rest of the activities that are necessary for a unit to be

11 relocated, to be transferred from one location to another.

12 Q. And what place was that where all these units were transferred to?

13 A. That was mostly Kumbor and Tivat.

14 Q. Was that the area of the Bay of Kotor sector, military naval

15 sector?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Tell me, please: In the period from October, November, and

18 December 1991, were you yourself in Kumbor throughout?

19 A. Yes, I was. Or rather, not in Kumbor. For a time I was in Kumbor

20 when Kupari was taken over, forward command post was set up, the IKM of

21 Kupari, and that's when I went to Kupari myself and I spent some time

22 there.

23 Q. Tell me, please: When the forward command post at Kupari was

24 established and when you yourself arrived there, what specifically did you

25 do there? What duties did you have?

Page 7691

1 A. I was an operations officer, like I was in Kumbor, with duty

2 shifts in the operations centre where we would take shifts and replace

3 each other.

4 Q. Tell me, please: Do you know any of the officers who worked with

5 you in the operations centre at the forward command post in Kupari?

6 A. In the operations centre at the forward command post, in fact, in

7 Kupari, there was frigate captain, the then frigate Captain Kozaric. He

8 was with me. Frigate Captain Uljarevic, another officer who left because

9 he was ill, and he was absent from sometime, on sick-leave. Then Captain

10 First Class Sikimic and corvette Captain retired Mika Celebcic [phoen].

11 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now, tell me, please. In the operations

12 centre at the forward command post in Kupari, was there a diary or logbook

13 kept at all?

14 A. Yes. A war diary or war logbook was kept and that was the normal

15 procedure. It was a compulsory document.

16 Q. Tell me, please: What is entered? What is recorded in a document

17 of that kind?

18 A. All events taking place during a day are recorded and entered into

19 the logbook for combat reports to be compiled later on. All important

20 events that take place in the units under our responsibility and in the

21 area around, if they affect the activities of our own troops. So that

22 means everything about our forces, enemy forces, the events that take

23 place, casualties, killings, woundings, and so on and so forth, and all

24 orders that are received, all dispatches that are received, they're all

25 recorded in entries made into the war diary.

Page 7692

1 Q. Thank you. I should now like to ask the usher again to hand the

2 witness another document. It is D96.

3 Mr. Drljan, do you recognise this document? Take a look at it,

4 please.

5 A. Yes, I do recognise it.

6 Q. Is it the war diary or logbook of the operations centre of the

7 9th Military Naval Sector, which was kept at the forward command post of

8 Kupari?

9 A. Yes, that's right. I recognise my own handwriting, in fact.

10 Q. When you open the diary, from page 59, can you tell us where you

11 come across your handwriting first?

12 A. In point 1, at 1615. That's the time, 1615.

13 Q. What am page is that?

14 A. It's page 59. The time is 1615 hours and my first entry on that

15 page. And it referred to the 3rd of December.

16 Q. Very well. Now take a look at the date, the 4th of December,

17 1991, the entries for that day. Are there any of your own entries there?

18 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me, Your Honour. Can we confirm that it was

19 page 59 that the witness was referring to? I don't see an entry for 1615

20 on my page 59. Perhaps ...

21 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I be allowed to

22 explain? We provided the exhibit, the excerpt from the war diary, dated

23 the 4th of December, for those days, for the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th of

24 December, 1991, and in the original document, the 4th of December starts

25 in mid-page, in the middle of the page. And there are several entries

Page 7693

1 from the 3rd of December. Now, since the witness was looking at the

2 original, he mentioned page 59 of the original.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first paragraph -- the first

4 entry.

5 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] Yes, the first entry.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Does that help, Ms. Somers?

7 MS. SOMERS: Limitedly, Your Honour. It would probably be very

8 helpful if the Defence would provide the entire document, at least from

9 the period of the indictment, so that should any references come out --

10 we -- I realise that --

11 JUDGE PARKER: Well, I think you have the entire period of the

12 indictment, but you also have it for two previous days.

13 MS. SOMERS: I have only these relevant days. I do not have

14 anything --

15 JUDGE PARKER: Well, the indictment is the 6th of December.

16 MS. SOMERS: I'm sorry. The period of October -- correct. I

17 apologise. October through the end of December. That would be very

18 helpful. But I could raise it another time. But it was of limited

19 assistance, what Mr. Rodic gave us.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Well, we know that what we have in English

21 commences part way down page 59, with the first of the entries for the 4th

22 of December.

23 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour. The 4th of

24 December, and that's the evidence, and I'm going to ask the witness about

25 the 4th of December entries.

Page 7694

1 Q. Mr. Drljan, take a look at the date, please, the 4th of December,

2 and for that day, you can tell me whether there are any of your own

3 entries in the war diary.

4 A. The first one is at 1815, on page 61.

5 Q. Can you just tell us briefly what this entry at 1815 pertains to.

6 A. That is an intercept of a conversation over radio. It says Ante

7 Catlak is replaced and Olujic Aljosa is taking his place, and so on and so

8 forth.

9 Q. All right. Please look at the comments on the right-hand side.

10 What is there next to this message at 1815?

11 A. It says: "Frigate Captain Jeremic."

12 Q. Can you explain what this means?

13 A. This remark means that Jeremic gave us this information, conveyed

14 it. This piece of information was received through his service, and he

15 conveyed it further on to us.

16 Q. What is this service of Jeremic's?

17 A. The counter-intelligence service, monitoring the enemy, the enemy

18 side, and collecting information about the enemy side.

19 Q. Thank you. Did you sign this entry? Did you place your signature

20 next to it?

21 A. No, I did not sign it. It was more important for me to know who I

22 received this information from.

23 Q. All right. Could you please look at the 4th of December.

24 A. Here it is. "Srdj, trig point 412, a transporter noticed."

25 Q. What about under "remarks?"

Page 7695

1 A. Zdravkovic. He gave that information.

2 Q. And this is recorded at 1833; right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could you please look at the log for the 5th of December, 1991,

5 and could you tell us whether you made any entries on that day.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. On which page?

8 A. On page 65.

9 Q. Where is your first entry on page 65?

10 A. At 1725.

11 Q. Can you tell us what you wrote?

12 A. "We have received an oral order from the Operations Centre General

13 Staff. The Third Administration is reporting: Keep the January portion

14 of the soldiers until further notice in the JNA. How fast that will be

15 will be regulated by the Presidency of the SFRY." So that meant that it

16 was not certain how long they would keep the soldiers.

17 Q. And what about the column "remarks"?

18 A. I signed my own name, because I received this from the OKM. The

19 OKM is the basic command post in Kumbor. This was not received directly

20 from the General Staff but from Kumbor, because this was first conveyed to

21 them.

22 Q. Is this a direct oral order from the operations centre of the

23 General Staff? Did it arrive directly at the 9th VPS?

24 A. I cannot say. I don't know, because I was not staying there.

25 Q. All right.

Page 7696

1 A. I know that we received it by telephone.

2 Q. All right. Tell me, please: Are there any other entries that you

3 made?

4 A. Right below, at 1745.

5 Q. And what is this about? Just tell us that so that we don't read

6 the whole thing.

7 A. Jeremic sent this to us too. This was a radio message for VPS

8 Boka, pursuant to our conversation, pursuant to our conversation from the

9 2nd of December, 1991 in Cavtat, according to standard procedures.

10 Q. Isn't the word "models" written here?

11 A. "...standard procedures and models of work, regarding movements in

12 the region outside the town of Dubrovnik, we suggest the following to

13 you."

14 Q. All right. Let's not read the whole thing. Is this a radio

15 message for VPS Boka Frigate Captain Jeremic, one that you received?

16 A. Probably, because the communication between the Crisis Staff of

17 Dubrovnik and the command in Kumbor was then taking place via Radio Bar.

18 Q. All right. Are there any other entries there that you made?

19 A. The next one is also my entry.

20 Q. At what time?

21 A. 1832.

22 Q. Does this entry then go on to page 66?

23 A. Yes, and it ends at page 66. This is an entry that was sent to us

24 by the municipal staff of the Red Cross in Dubrovnik.

25 Q. Our time is short. So this message has to do with "the agreement

Page 7697

1 reached today with the representatives of the Government of Croatia. We

2 suggest that tomorrow, at 9.00, the ship Arka sets sail tomorrow from the

3 Gruz [as interpreted] harbour, which would be marked with the flag of the

4 Red Cross and carrying humanitarian aid for the island of Sipan. It would

5 then make a brief transit dock in the harbours of Sudjuradj and Sipan [as

6 interpreted]. We ask that this ship be permitted to take Mrs. Kate

7 Stancic to the island of Sipan so that she may visit her sick father. The

8 representatives of the Red Cross Tripo Rundo, Berislav Vacic, Maruska

9 Dobud..."

10 A. Berislav Valcic [phoen].

11 Q. All right. Never mind. So this is a message from the municipal

12 staff of the Red Cross of Dubrovnik; is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What about the column "remarks"?

15 A. I signed it because I received this message, and down here I put

16 the municipal Red Cross staff of Dubrovnik. That means that they signed

17 the message.

18 Q. Are there any other entries of yours?

19 A. Yes. There's another one at 1925: "The company Osoj [phoen]

20 reports that the radar Ostra was working and had no further radar contact

21 with Cap Afrique [phoen]. This is a French vessel. So they're informing

22 us about the Situation at the sea. Now they see on the screen four

23 objects. The closest is in the direction of Kp 263 from Obasnik, 27.3

24 miles.

25 Q. All right. Is this your signature?

Page 7698

1 A. Yes, it is.

2 Q. Until the 5th of December, or rather, the end of the 5th of

3 December are there any other entries that you made?

4 A. No. No. No more entries that I made until the end of the 5th of

5 December. Then the 6th of December starts.

6 Q. All right. Tell me, please: Do you know where you were on the

7 6th of December, 1991?

8 A. I do.

9 Q. Will you tell us where you were?

10 A. On the morning of the 6th of December --

11 Q. Just give me your answer to my question. Where were you?

12 A. At the forward command post in the morning. And later on I was

13 assigned to go elsewhere. Do you want me to talk about that?

14 Q. Were you at the forward command post of Kupari?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were you at the operations centre of the forward command post of

17 Kupari?

18 A. After having rested during the night, in the morning, around 7.00,

19 I came to the operations centre.

20 Q. All right. Thank you.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Is that a convenient time?

22 MR. RODIC: [Interpretation] That is precisely what I wished to

23 ask, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We will, of necessity, adjourn now,

25 until Monday afternoon at 2.15.

Page 7699

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

2 to be reconvened on Monday, the 12th day of July,

3 2004, at 2.15 p.m.