1 Case No. IT-94-1-T 26th April 1995
3 Case No. IT-95-3-I
5 THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL TRIBUNAL
6 FOR THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA
7 THE PROSECUTOR
9 DUSAN TADIC A/K/A/ “DULE”
11 GORAN BOROVNICA
13 Judge McDonald (Presiding Judge)
14 Judge Deschênes
15 Judge Vohrah
16 The Office of the Prosecutor:
17 Mr Grant Niemann Ms Brenda Hollis
18 Mr Alan Tieger Mr. William Fenrick
19 Counsel for Dusan Tadic:
20 Professor Michael Wladimiroff
21 Mr Milan Vuji
24 JUDGE McDONALD: Good morning. May I have the appearances, please,
25 for the Prosecutor?
1 MR NIEMANN: If your Honour pleases, my name is Niemann. I appear
2 for the prosecution, and with me is
3 Mr Tieger, Miss Hollis, who is not here today, Mr Fenrick and
4 Mr Keegan of counsel.
5 JUDGE MCDONALD: Thank you, Mr Niemann, and who is appearing for the
6 defence, please?
7 PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF: My name, Ms President, is Wladimiroff, and
8 also here is Mr Vujin. Those are the lawyers in this case. We are
9 assisted by Miss Feddes,
10 Miss Starreveld, Mr Kollen and Mr Emile van der Does.
11 They are assisting the defence on matters of fact.
12 JUDGE MCDONALD: Thank you, Mr Wladimiroff. One additional comment,
13 Mr Wladimiroff. I understand that
14 Mr Tadic has completed an initial application for appointment of counsel?
15 PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF: That is right.
16 JUDGE MCDONALD: And that he has selected you as his first choice to
17 represent him, and the Registrar
18 has appointed you as counsel; is that your understanding?
19 PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF: That is correct.
20 JUDGE MCDONALD: You will then be acting, so to speak,
21 as lead counsel for the defence. That means that the Tribunal will send
22 you notices, and send you notices as well, Mr Vujin, but we will be
23 looking to you to tell us that you have received the notices, Mr
25 PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF: For practical reasons, that will be a very
1 good idea.
2 JUDGE MCDONALD: That also goes for the prosecutor, Mr Prosecutor.
3 You would then of course send notices to Mr Wladimiroff, and of course to
4 Mr Vujin, but except Mr Wladimiroff -- and pardon me if I am stumbling
5 over the pronunciation -- Mr Wladimiroff is the lead counsel. Do you
6 understand that, Mr Niemann?
7 MR NIEMANN: I understand that.
8 JUDGE MCDONALD: Thank you. Is the prosecutor ready to
10 MR NIEMANN: Your Honour, the prosecution is
11 ready to proceed in the case against the accused, Tadic.
12 In relation to the accused, Borovnica, who is also
13 mentioned in the indictment, a warrant for his
14 arrest has been issued, but he is still at large. Accordingly, unless he
15 is arrested in the immediate future, we would wish to proceed to trial
16 against the accused, Tadic, at this stage.
17 JUDGE MCDONALD: Is the defence ready to proceed?
18 PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF: Yes.
19 JUDGE MCDONALD: For the record, then, Mr Borovnica is not present
21 MR NIEMANN: That is right, your Honour.
22 JUDGE MCDONALD: Just Mr Dusan Tadic; is that correct, Mr
24 PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF: That is correct.
25 JUDGE MCDONALD: Mr Wladimiroff would you wait a moment? I would
1 like to speak to you. Has Mr Tadic received a copy of the indictment?
2 PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF: He has, Ms President.
3 JUDGE MCDONALD: Has Mr Tadic read the indictment or had it read to
4 him in a language he understands?
5 PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF: He did read it in his native language.
6 JUDGE MCDONALD: Have you discussed the indictment with
7 Mr Tadic?
8 PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF: Not extensively, but just a global
9 discussion has been made.
10 JUDGE MCDONALD: Do you believe that Mr Tadic under-stands the
11 nature of the charges contained in the indictment?
12 PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF: I think he understands the nature of the
14 JUDGE MCDONALD: And I see, Mr Vujin, you are nodding your head as
16 MR VUJIN: Yes.
17 JUDGE MCDONALD: Is Mr Tadic ready to agree with the indictment for
18 the purposes of entering a plea, or would he be willing to waive the
19 reading of the indictment? PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF: He is willing to
20 waive without any prejudice to the contents of it, but he does not need to
21 have the indictment read extensively.
22 JUDGE MCDONALD: When you say, "waive", I do not mean waive any of
23 his rights to plead not guilty to the indictment.
24 PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF: That is exactly what I am referring to.
25 JUDGE MCDONALD: Just not a formal reading of the indictment?
1 PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF: That is right.
2 JUDGE MCDONALD: Mr Tadic, would you please stand? For the record,
3 would you state your full name, please, as well as any other names that
4 you may have gone by?
5 THE DEFENDANT: Dusko Tadic.
6 JUDGE MCDONALD: Are there any other names that you have gone by, Mr
8 PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF: We cannot hear.
9 JUDGE MCDONALD: Mr Tadic, for the record, would you state your full
11 THE DEFENDANT (original: Serbian): I do not understand English. I
12 only understand the Serbian language, and I
13 only speak the Serbian language.
14 JUDGE MCDONALD: Can you hear me now, Mr Tadic?
15 THE DEFENDANT: (original: Serbian): I already said that I do not
16 understand the English language. I do not have an interpretation.
17 JUDGE MCDONALD: Mr Tadic, for the record, would you state your full
19 THE DEFENDANT: My full name is Dusko Tadic.
20 JUDGE MCDONALD: Have you gone by any other names, Mr Tadic?
21 THE DEFENDANT: (original: Serbian): I never used any other names,
22 except my closest friends sometimes called me Dule.
23 JUDGE MCDONALD: Thank you. Mr Tadic, are you ready to enter a
24 plea to the indictment?
25 THE DEFENDANT: (original: Serbian): Yes.
1 JUDGE MCDONALD: How do you plead to the indictment; guilty or not
3 THE DEFENDANT: (original: Serbian): Not guilty, and I never took
4 part in any of the crimes with which I am charged.
5 JUDGE MCDONALD: I understand then, that by pleading not guilty you
6 are pleading not guilty to each and every of the charges contained in the
7 indictment; is that
9 THE DEFENDANT: (original: Serbian): I did not take
10 part in any of the crimes with which I am charged.
11 JUDGE MCDONALD: You are pleading not guilty to each of the charges;
12 is that correct?
13 THE DEFENDANT: (original: Serbian): Yes.
14 JUDGE MCDONALD: Thank you. Mr Tadic, you may be seated.
15 Are there any preliminary matters that we need to discuss, lawyers,
16 before we determine a date for trial? First, Mr Prosecutor, are there
17 any preliminary motions that you intend to file?
18 MR NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. We will be seeking to file one
19 motion so that there may be a hearing under Rule 75(B) of the Rules in
20 relation to the taking of evidence by victims who have been sexually
21 assaulted and who we propose would give evidence in these proceedings.
22 We suggest that we would be in a position to file our papers in this
23 matter by about the 18th May, if that is a convenient date for the
24 Tribunal, with the matter then proceeding to a hearing at some subsequent
25 date after that.
1 The situation is, your Honour, that some of these witnesses that we
2 seek to rely on are at the moment
3 unable to bring themselves to give evidence in the traditional manner, so
4 we would be seeking to rely on the provisions of 75(B) of the Rules in
5 order to overcome that issue.
6 At the moment, that is the only preliminary motion
7 that the prosecution wishes to identify.
8 JUDGE MCDONALD: Do you contemplate that you would require a hearing
9 for that motion?
10 MR NIEMANN: Your Honour, it may be that the Tribunal would be
11 assisted by a short hearing. I imagine that we would file a fairly
12 detailed documentary motion, but that the
13 specific Rule itself, 75(B), seems to contemplate some
14 sort of hearing, and we have in mind at this stage --
15 and I must say it is not settled -- calling perhaps some
16 evidence by experts in this field who may be able to
17 assist the Tribunal with resolutions of questions.
18 So, to that extent, there may be a necessity for a
20 JUDGE MCDONALD: Thank you, Mr Niemann. Mr Wladimiroff, suppose we
21 give you -- I am trying to count the dates here -- until the 2nd June. I
22 think that would be about 14 days.
23 PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF: I do not think that will be enough Ms
25 JUDGE MCDONALD: How much time do you think that you would need, Mr
2 PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF: I think two weeks more would be
3 convenient for the defence.
4 JUDGE MCDONALD: Two weeks in addition to the 14 days?
5 PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF: That is right, yes.
6 JUDGE MCDONALD: That would then get us to about June 18th, I
8 PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF: That is right.
9 JUDGE MCDONALD: That is a Sunday. Therefore, I would have waited
10 until the following Monday Actually I was thinking about pushing it back
11 the other way. Of course, I have not seen the motion, and neither have
12 you, so you do not
13 really know whether you would need a month.
14 PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF: There is some difference between the
15 prosecution and the defence, that we have not yet had a disclosure of the
16 file, so we cannot judge the context
17 of it. For that reason, I think we need some more time.
18 JUDGE MCDONALD: Suppose we gave you two weeks initially, let you
19 look at the motion and, if you need an
20 additional two weeks, then, of course, we would be
22 PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF: That is a good idea, yes. We can agree to
24 JUDGE MCDONALD: Then you would respond to the motion, we will say,
25 by the Monday, which would be June 5th.Actually, that is a little bit
2 PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF: That will be fine.
3 JUDGE MCDONALD: Wait a minute now. That is even too much time.
4 Excuse me, this is April 26th. Let us count the
5 days. Why do we not give you until Friday, May 12th to
6 file your response?
7 PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF: At least to file a response with respect to
8 the date?
9 JUDGE MCDONALD: Attempt to file a response to the motion that the
10 prosecutor indicates that it is filing. If you do not have enough time
11 after you have received the
12 motion, and you consider that you are unable to respond
13 to it in that approximate two week period, then simply
14 file a request for leave for an additional two weeks.
15 It may be that, when you receive their motion, you will
16 find that you can easily respond to it.
17 PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF: Yes, I do agree with that.
18 JUDGE MCDONALD: You may have, then, until May 12th, with the
19 understanding that, if, after you have received the
20 motion, you need additional time, then you will advise
21 the Court prior to that time, and we will attempt to
22 give you that additional time that you need.
23 PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF: Yes.
24 JUDGE MCDONALD: Mr Wladimiroff, do you intend filing any
25 preliminary motions for the defence?
1 PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF: Yes. Within the terms of the 60 days'
2 motions, we are considering, but not decided yet.
3 So we are not able to tell you at this stage which
4 motion we will file.
5 JUDGE MCDONALD: The rules of procedure and evidence do give you 60
6 days, of course, to file the motions.
7 PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF: We will do that as quickly as
9 JUDGE MCDONALD: For how long has Mr Tadic has been in
10 custody in Germany? Since February of last year?
11 PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF: I really do not know.
12 MR VUJIN: He is okay with that.
13 JUDGE MCDONALD: Then you will have 60 days to file the
14 motions. In all likelihood, Mr Wladimiroff, we will
15 schedule a pre-trial conference or a status conference,
16 so to speak, with counsel only, perhaps in two weeks,
17 just to get a feel for where you are. Perhaps by then
18 you will be in a better position to tell us what motions
19 you will be filing, and when you might be filing them.
20 PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF: We would appreciate that, if we
21 could have such a meeting, because we are all dependent
22 on the file we have not yet seen. It merely is a
23 practical problem.
24 JUDGE MCDONALD: Let me count my dates on my calendar
25 again. We will set a status conference for May 11th at
1 10.00 am for the purpose of discussing the preliminary
2 motions. We certainly hope, Mr Wladimiroff, that on
3 that date you will be in a position to give a good
4 indication of what motions you intend to file, if you
5 can, only so that we can schedule them accordingly. But
6 you are not required; you are correct, you do have the
7 60 days.
8 Mr Niemann, when do you expect that you will
9 provide the defence with the papers that accompany the
10 indictment as required by the rules?
11 MR NIEMANN: To answer your Honour's question, we are
12 expecting to provide the defence with a bundle of
13 material today. There is some material that we have not
14 provided, because it is affected by our application, but
15 apart from that everything else will be supplied today.
16 Your Honour, while I am on my feet, I notice that
17 when discussing the dates, your Honour mentioned 12th
18 May as the response date. I assume your Honour meant
19 12th June?
20 JUDGE MCDONALD: Actually, we do not have 12th June. What I have
21 done is to give counsel for the defence two weeks
22 to respond, and, if he needs more additional time --
23 from what you are telling me, you think that he really
24 will need more time?
25 MR NIEMANN: No, your Honour, I am sorry, there was a
1 misunderstanding. It is just I have noticed from this
2 wonderful device that records the transcript, that when
3 there was mention of the dates, I suggested that I would
4 file my notice of motion by 18th May, and then your
5 Honour was discussing the times for the defence to
6 respond. Your Honour mentioned 12th May. Just for the
7 record, I assume your Honour means 12th June.
8 PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF: I see what you mean. There might be some
9 confusion about dates.
10 JUDGE MCDONALD: Do you need a month, Mr Wladimiroff, to respond to
11 the Government's motion? You saying that
12 that is what you are thinking, but I thought we agreed
13 that until you really received the motion, it is
14 difficult for you to tell.
15 PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF: What we are trying to say is that, after we
16 have received the motion, we will need 14 days
17 and maybe an additional 14 days.
18 JUDGE MCDONALD: Okay.
19 PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF: That is it. It just depends on the date the
20 motion will be filed.
21 JUDGE MCDONALD: Mr Niemann, then you will be filing your motion on
22 May 18th, and then counsel for the defence
23 will have 14 days to respond to it. I will let someone
24 else, who is better with calendars, compute those dates;
25 14 days after they file their motion, which they are
1 filing on May 18th.
2 If you need additional time after that 14 days,
3 then of course you may ask for leave, and we will take a
4 look at it at that date.
5 If someone has a calendar and they can do the
6 computation better than I, Miss Featherstone, perhaps
7 you can come up with a date 14 days after the 18th.
8 Mr Wladimiroff, the Court Clerk tells me that your
9 response then would be filed on June 2nd. That is the
10 response to the prosecutor's application that we will be
11 filing on May 18th. Again, if you need additional time,
12 then please advise the court.
13 PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF: We appreciate that.
14 JUDGE MCDONALD: We had then set a status conference for May 11th at
15 10.00 am. The purpose of the status conference will be for the lawyers to
16 meet with the Tribunal to discuss preliminary matters further.
17 Is there anything else that we need to discuss
19 MR NIEMANN:No, your Honour, nothing by the Prosecution.
20 JUDGE MCDONALD: The defence, anything else?
21 PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF: No.
22 JUDGE MCDONALD: Is the prosecutor ready to proceed to
24 MR NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.
25 JUDGE MCDONALD: Defence?
1 PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF: We are, Ms President.
2 JUDGE MCDONALD: The Tribunal will not set a date for trial at this
3 time. A trial date will be set after we resolve
4 the motions. Of course, we are not certain at this
5 point what motions we will be receiving, but as soon as
6 we receive the motions and the responses and resolve
7 them, I will ask that the Registrar set a date for
9 Are there any additional matters that need to be
11 MR NIEMANN: Not from the point of view of the Prosecution.
12 JUDGE MCDONALD: Court is adjourned.
14 (Court adjourned)