Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

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  1   Case No. IT-94-1-T                                  26th April 1995

  2   and

  3   Case No. IT-95-3-I





  8   V.


 10   AND


 12   Before:

 13   Judge McDonald (Presiding Judge)

 14   Judge Deschênes

 15   Judge Vohrah

 16   The Office of the Prosecutor:

 17               Mr Grant Niemann        Ms Brenda Hollis

 18               Mr Alan Tieger                Mr. William Fenrick

 19   Counsel for Dusan Tadic:

 20   Professor Michael Wladimiroff

 21   Mr Milan Vuji


 23   10.30)

 24         JUDGE McDONALD:  Good morning.  May I have the appearances, please,

 25   for the Prosecutor?

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  1         MR NIEMANN:  If your Honour pleases, my name is Niemann.  I appear

  2   for the prosecution, and with me is

  3   Mr Tieger, Miss Hollis, who is not here today, Mr Fenrick and

  4    Mr Keegan of counsel.

  5         JUDGE MCDONALD:  Thank you, Mr Niemann, and who is appearing for the

  6   defence, please?

  7         PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF:  My name, Ms President, is Wladimiroff, and

  8   also here is Mr Vujin.  Those are the lawyers in this case.  We are

  9   assisted by Miss Feddes,

 10   Miss Starreveld, Mr Kollen and Mr Emile van der Does.

 11    They are assisting the defence on matters of fact.

 12         JUDGE MCDONALD:  Thank you, Mr Wladimiroff.  One additional comment,

 13   Mr Wladimiroff.  I understand that

 14   Mr Tadic has completed an initial application for appointment of counsel?

 15         PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF:  That is right.

 16         JUDGE MCDONALD:  And that he has selected you as his first choice to

 17   represent him, and the Registrar

 18   has appointed you as counsel; is that your understanding?

 19         PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF:  That is correct.

 20   JUDGE MCDONALD:  You will then be acting, so to speak,

 21   as lead counsel for the defence.  That means that the Tribunal will send

 22   you notices, and send you notices as well, Mr Vujin, but we will be

 23   looking to you to tell us that you have received the notices, Mr

 24   Wladimiroff.

 25         PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF:  For practical reasons, that will be a very

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  1   good idea.

  2         JUDGE MCDONALD:  That also goes for the prosecutor, Mr Prosecutor. 

  3   You would then of course send notices to Mr Wladimiroff, and of course to

  4   Mr Vujin, but except Mr Wladimiroff -- and pardon me if I am stumbling

  5   over the pronunciation -- Mr Wladimiroff is the lead counsel.  Do you

  6   understand that, Mr Niemann?

  7         MR NIEMANN:  I understand that.

  8         JUDGE MCDONALD:  Thank you.  Is the prosecutor ready to

  9    proceed?

 10         MR NIEMANN:  Your Honour, the prosecution is

 11   ready to proceed in the case against the accused, Tadic.

 12   In relation to the accused, Borovnica, who is also

 13   mentioned in the indictment, a warrant for his

 14   arrest has been issued, but he is still at large.  Accordingly, unless he

 15   is arrested in the immediate future, we would wish to proceed to trial

 16   against the accused, Tadic, at this stage.

 17         JUDGE MCDONALD:  Is the defence ready to proceed?


 19         JUDGE MCDONALD:  For the record, then, Mr Borovnica is not present

 20   today?

 21         MR NIEMANN:  That is right, your Honour.

 22         JUDGE MCDONALD:  Just Mr Dusan Tadic; is that correct, Mr

 23   Wladimiroff?

 24         PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF:  That is correct.

 25         JUDGE MCDONALD:  Mr Wladimiroff would you wait a moment?  I would

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  1   like to speak to you.  Has Mr Tadic received a copy of the indictment?

  2         PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF:  He has, Ms President.

  3         JUDGE MCDONALD:  Has Mr Tadic read the indictment or had it read to

  4   him in a language he understands?

  5         PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF:  He did read it in his native language.

  6         JUDGE MCDONALD:  Have you discussed the indictment with

  7    Mr Tadic?

  8         PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF:  Not extensively, but just a global

  9   discussion has been made.

 10         JUDGE MCDONALD:  Do you believe that Mr Tadic under-stands the

 11   nature of the charges contained in the indictment?

 12         PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF:  I think he understands the nature of the

 13   charges.

 14         JUDGE MCDONALD:  And I see, Mr Vujin, you are nodding your head as

 15   well?

 16         MR VUJIN:  Yes.

 17         JUDGE MCDONALD:  Is Mr Tadic ready to agree with the indictment for

 18   the purposes of entering a plea, or would he be willing to waive the

 19   reading of the indictment?    PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF:  He is willing to

 20   waive without any prejudice to the contents of it, but he does not need to

 21   have the indictment read extensively.

 22         JUDGE MCDONALD:  When you say, "waive", I do not mean waive any of

 23   his rights to plead not guilty to the indictment.

 24         PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF:  That is exactly what I am referring to.

 25         JUDGE MCDONALD:  Just not a formal reading of the indictment?

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  1         PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF:  That is right.

  2         JUDGE MCDONALD:  Mr Tadic, would you please stand?  For the record,

  3   would you state your full name, please, as well as any other names that

  4   you may have gone by?

  5         THE DEFENDANT:  Dusko Tadic.

  6         JUDGE MCDONALD:  Are there any other names that you have gone by, Mr

  7   Tadic?

  8         PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF:  We cannot hear.

  9         JUDGE MCDONALD:  Mr Tadic, for the record, would you state your full

 10   name.

 11         THE DEFENDANT (original: Serbian):  I do not understand English.  I

 12   only understand the Serbian language, and I

 13   only speak the Serbian language.

 14         JUDGE MCDONALD:  Can you hear me now, Mr Tadic?

 15         THE DEFENDANT: (original: Serbian):  I already said that I do not

 16   understand the English language.  I do not have an interpretation.

 17         JUDGE MCDONALD:  Mr Tadic, for the record, would you state your full

 18   name?

 19         THE DEFENDANT:  My full name is Dusko Tadic.

 20         JUDGE MCDONALD:  Have you gone by any other names, Mr Tadic?

 21         THE DEFENDANT: (original: Serbian):  I never used any other names,

 22   except my closest friends sometimes called me Dule.

 23         JUDGE MCDONALD:   Thank you.  Mr Tadic, are you ready to enter a

 24   plea to the indictment?

 25         THE DEFENDANT: (original: Serbian):  Yes.

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  1         JUDGE MCDONALD:  How do you plead to the indictment; guilty or not

  2   guilty.

  3         THE DEFENDANT: (original: Serbian):  Not guilty, and I never took

  4   part in any of the crimes with which I am charged.

  5         JUDGE MCDONALD:  I understand then, that by pleading not guilty you

  6   are pleading not guilty to each and every of the charges contained in the

  7   indictment; is that

  8   correct?

  9         THE DEFENDANT: (original: Serbian):  I did not take

 10   part in any of the crimes with which I am charged.

 11         JUDGE MCDONALD:  You are pleading not guilty to each of the charges;

 12   is that correct?

 13         THE DEFENDANT: (original: Serbian):  Yes.

 14         JUDGE MCDONALD:  Thank you.  Mr Tadic, you may be seated.

 15         Are there any preliminary matters that we need to discuss, lawyers,

 16   before we determine a date for trial?     First, Mr Prosecutor, are there

 17   any preliminary motions that you intend to file?

 18         MR NIEMANN:  Yes, your Honour.  We will be seeking to file one

 19   motion so that there may be a hearing under Rule 75(B) of the Rules in

 20   relation to the taking of evidence by victims who have been sexually

 21   assaulted and who we propose would give evidence in these proceedings.

 22         We suggest that we would be in a position to file our papers in this

 23   matter by about the 18th May, if that is a convenient date for the

 24   Tribunal, with the matter then proceeding to a hearing at some subsequent

 25   date after that.

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  1         The situation is, your Honour, that some of these witnesses that we

  2   seek to rely on are at the moment

  3   unable to bring themselves to give evidence in the traditional manner, so

  4   we would be seeking to rely on the provisions of 75(B) of the Rules in

  5   order to overcome that issue.

  6         At the moment, that is the only preliminary motion

  7    that the prosecution wishes to identify.

  8         JUDGE MCDONALD:  Do you contemplate that you would require a hearing

  9   for that motion?

 10         MR NIEMANN:  Your Honour, it may be that the Tribunal would be

 11   assisted by a short hearing.  I imagine that we would file a fairly

 12   detailed documentary motion, but that the

 13    specific Rule itself, 75(B), seems to contemplate some

 14    sort of hearing, and we have in mind at this stage --

 15    and I must say it is not settled -- calling perhaps some

 16    evidence by experts in this field who may be able to

 17    assist the Tribunal with resolutions of questions.

 18          So, to that extent, there may be a necessity for a

 19    hearing.

 20         JUDGE MCDONALD:  Thank you, Mr Niemann.  Mr Wladimiroff, suppose we

 21   give you -- I am trying to count the dates here -- until the 2nd June.  I

 22   think that would be about 14 days.

 23         PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF:  I do not think that will be enough Ms

 24   President.

 25         JUDGE MCDONALD:  How much time do you think that you would need, Mr

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  1   Wladimiroff?

  2         PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF:  I think two weeks more would be

  3    convenient for the defence.

  4         JUDGE MCDONALD:  Two weeks in addition to the 14 days?

  5         PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF:  That is right, yes.

  6         JUDGE MCDONALD:  That would then get us to about June 18th, I

  7   suppose.

  8         PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF:  That is right.

  9         JUDGE MCDONALD:  That is a Sunday.  Therefore, I would have waited

 10   until the following Monday  Actually I was thinking about pushing it back

 11   the other way.  Of course, I have not seen the motion, and neither have

 12   you, so you do not

 13    really know whether you would need a month.

 14         PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF:  There is some difference between the

 15   prosecution and the defence, that we have not yet had a disclosure of the

 16   file, so we cannot judge the context

 17    of it.  For that reason, I think we need some more time.

 18         JUDGE MCDONALD:  Suppose we gave you two weeks initially, let you

 19   look at the motion and, if you need an

 20    additional two weeks, then, of course, we would be

 21    happy.

 22         PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF:  That is a good idea, yes.  We can agree to

 23   that.

 24         JUDGE MCDONALD:  Then you would respond to the motion, we will say,

 25   by the Monday, which would be June 5th.Actually, that is a little bit

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  1   more.

  2         PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF:  That will be fine.

  3         JUDGE MCDONALD:  Wait a minute now.  That is even too much time. 

  4   Excuse me, this is April 26th.  Let us count the

  5    days.  Why do we not give you until Friday, May 12th to

  6    file your response?

  7         PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF:  At least to file a response with respect to

  8   the date?

  9         JUDGE MCDONALD:  Attempt to file a response to the motion that the

 10   prosecutor indicates that it is filing.  If you do not have enough time

 11   after you have received the

 12    motion, and you consider that you are unable to respond

 13    to it in that approximate two week period, then simply

 14    file a request for leave for an additional two weeks.

 15    It may be that, when you receive their motion, you will

 16    find that you can easily respond to it.

 17         PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF:  Yes, I do agree with that.

 18         JUDGE MCDONALD:  You may have, then, until May 12th, with the

 19   understanding that, if, after you have received the

 20    motion, you need additional time, then you will advise

 21    the Court prior to that time, and we will attempt to

 22    give you that additional time that you need.


 24         JUDGE MCDONALD:  Mr Wladimiroff, do you intend filing any

 25   preliminary motions for the defence?

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  1         PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF:  Yes.  Within the terms of the 60 days'

  2   motions, we are considering, but not decided yet.

  3    So we are not able to tell you at this stage which

  4    motion we will file.

  5         JUDGE MCDONALD:  The rules of procedure and evidence do give you 60

  6   days, of course, to file the motions.

  7         PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF:  We will do that as quickly as

  8    possible.

  9         JUDGE MCDONALD:  For how long has Mr Tadic has been in

 10    custody in Germany?  Since February of last year?

 11         PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF:  I really do not know.

 12         MR VUJIN:  He is okay with that.

 13         JUDGE MCDONALD:  Then you will have 60 days to file the

 14    motions.  In all likelihood, Mr Wladimiroff, we will

 15    schedule a pre-trial conference or a status conference,

 16    so to speak, with counsel only, perhaps in two weeks,

 17    just to get a feel for where you are.  Perhaps by then

 18    you will be in a better position to tell us what motions

 19    you will be filing, and when you might be filing them.

 20         PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF:  We would appreciate that, if we

 21    could have such a meeting, because we are all dependent

 22    on the file we have not yet seen.  It merely is a

 23    practical problem.

 24         JUDGE MCDONALD:  Let me count my dates on my calendar

 25    again.  We will set a status conference for May 11th at

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  1    10.00 am for the purpose of discussing the preliminary

  2    motions.  We certainly hope, Mr Wladimiroff, that on

  3    that date you will be in a position to give a good

  4    indication of what motions you intend to file, if you

  5    can, only so that we can schedule them accordingly.  But

  6    you are not required; you are correct, you do have the

  7    60 days.

  8          Mr Niemann, when do you expect that you will

  9    provide the defence with the papers that accompany the

 10    indictment as required by the rules?

 11         MR NIEMANN:  To answer your Honour's question, we are

 12    expecting to provide the defence with a bundle of

 13    material today.  There is some material that we have not

 14    provided, because it is affected by our application, but

 15    apart from that everything else will be supplied today.

 16         Your Honour, while I am on my feet, I notice that

 17    when discussing the dates, your Honour mentioned 12th

 18    May as the response date.  I assume your Honour meant

 19    12th June?

 20         JUDGE MCDONALD:  Actually, we do not have 12th June.  What I have

 21   done is to give counsel for the defence two weeks

 22    to respond, and, if he needs more additional time --

 23    from what you are telling me, you think that he really

 24    will need more time?

 25         MR NIEMANN:  No, your Honour, I am sorry, there was a

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  1    misunderstanding.  It is just I have noticed from this

  2    wonderful device that records the transcript, that when

  3    there was mention of the dates, I suggested that I would

  4    file my notice of motion by 18th May, and then your

  5    Honour was discussing the times for the defence to

  6    respond.  Your Honour mentioned 12th May.  Just for the

  7    record, I assume your Honour means 12th June.

  8         PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF:  I see what you mean.  There might be some

  9   confusion about dates.

 10         JUDGE MCDONALD:  Do you need a month, Mr Wladimiroff, to respond to

 11   the Government's motion?  You saying that

 12    that is what you are thinking, but I thought we agreed

 13    that until you really received the motion, it is

 14    difficult for you to tell.

 15         PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF:  What we are trying to say is that, after we

 16   have received the motion, we will need 14 days

 17    and maybe an additional 14 days.

 18         JUDGE MCDONALD:  Okay.

 19         PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF:  That is it.  It just depends on the date the

 20   motion will be filed.

 21         JUDGE MCDONALD:  Mr Niemann, then you will be filing your motion on

 22   May 18th, and then counsel for the defence

 23    will have 14 days to respond to it.  I will let someone

 24    else, who is better with calendars, compute those dates;

 25    14 days after they file their motion, which they are

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  1    filing on May 18th.

  2         If you need additional time after that 14 days,

  3    then of course you may ask for leave, and we will take a

  4    look at it at that date.

  5         If someone has a calendar and they can do the

  6    computation better than I, Miss Featherstone, perhaps

  7    you can come up with a date 14 days after the 18th.

  8         Mr Wladimiroff, the Court Clerk tells me that your

  9    response then would be filed on June 2nd.  That is the

 10    response to the prosecutor's application that we will be

 11    filing on May 18th.  Again, if you need additional time,

 12    then please advise the court.

 13         PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF:  We appreciate that.

 14         JUDGE MCDONALD:  We had then set a status conference for May 11th at

 15   10.00 am.  The purpose of the status conference will be for the lawyers to

 16   meet with the Tribunal to discuss preliminary matters further.

 17         Is there anything else that we need to discuss

 18    preliminarily?

 19         MR NIEMANN:No, your Honour, nothing by the Prosecution.

 20         JUDGE MCDONALD:  The defence, anything else?


 22         JUDGE MCDONALD:  Is the prosecutor ready to proceed to

 23    trial?

 24         MR NIEMANN:  Yes, your Honour.

 25         JUDGE MCDONALD:  Defence?

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  1         PROFESSOR WLADIMIROFF:  We are, Ms President.

  2         JUDGE MCDONALD:  The Tribunal will not set a date for trial at this

  3   time. A trial date will be set after we resolve

  4    the motions.  Of course, we are not certain at this

  5    point what motions we will be receiving, but as soon as

  6    we receive the motions and the responses and resolve

  7    them, I will ask that the Registrar set a date for

  8    trial.

  9         Are there any additional matters that need to be

 10    discussed?

 11         MR NIEMANN: Not from the point of view of the Prosecution.

 12         JUDGE MCDONALD:  Court is adjourned.

 13         (11.00)

 14   (Court adjourned)