Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1104

1 THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL TRIBUNAL

2 FOR THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA

3 IN THE TRIAL CHAMBER

4 CASE NO. IT-94-1-T

5 Wednesday, 22nd May 1996

6 (10.00 a.m.)

7

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, I think you need Dr. Greve?

9 MR. TIEGER: Yes, thank you. I will have her called in.

10 DR. HANNE SOPHIE GREVE, recalled.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think you had almost concluded your testimony?

12 Examined by MR. TIEGER, continued.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Good morning, Dr. Greve. You understand that you

14 are still under oath?

15 THE WITNESS: I do.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger?

17 MR. TIEGER: Dr. Greve, before yesterday's adjournment we were discussing

18 the military

19 units which participated in the takeover and the cleansing of

20 Opstina Prijedor, and we concluded yesterday as you reviewed several

21 documents which detailed the involvement of different units. If I

22 may, I would like to present you with one more document which I would

23 like marked as Exhibit 119 for identification. (Document handed) Can

24 you tell us what that document is, please?

25 A. This document is a translation of an article in Kozarski Vjesnik.

Page 1105

1 It is dated 26th August 1994 headlined "Without a battle lost".

2 Q. Does it concern the fighters of the 4th battalion of the 43rd

3 Motorized Brigade in Prijedor?

4 A. That is correct.

5 MR. TIEGER: I tender this document for admission, your Honour, as 119.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

7 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection, your Honour.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 119 will be admitted.

9 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): Dr. Greve, can I ask you to turn to page 2

10 of that document, please? Looking at the middle of the page at the

11 paragraph below the one which begins "July 4th 1992"; is there an

12 indication of the areas where the 4th Battalion of the 43rd Motorized

13 Brigade was involved?

14 A. There is. It is stated that from May to December 1992 some

15 formations of that battalion took part in cleansing the terrain in

16 the direction of Kozarusa, Kozarac, Hambarine, Kurevo, Cela and

17 Razboj.

18 Q. If I could ask that that Exhibit 116 be re-presented to the witness?

19 Could you look at page 1, please, the second paragraph from the

20 bottom? First of all, Dr. Greve, this is an article in honour of the

21 43rd Motorized Brigade?

22 A. That is correct.

23 Q. Does the article indicate in that second paragraph in the bottom of

24 the page when that Brigade was mobilized and from what area?

25 A. Yes, it does. "The campaign of the 43rd Prijedor Motorized Brigade,

Page 1106

1 however, began a year before that, more precisely on September 15th

2 1991 when the mobilization signal was received. The former 343rd

3 Motorized Brigade left off its war assignment on September 18. It

4 was on the main route of the then 5th Banja Luka (nowadays the first

5 Krajina Corps): Strug, Okucani, Lipik, Pakrac".

6 Q. So the 43rd Prijedor Motorized Brigade was initially mobilized in

7 September 1991 as a 343rd of the JNA?

8 A. It was still the JNA on 15th September 1991, yes, as it was on 30th

9 April 1992 when the Serbs took power by armed force in opstina

10 Prijedor.

11 Q. And that was a mobilization of persons to participate in the war in

12 Croatia?

13 A. That is correct, although it is not stated in this article that it

14 was limited to the war in Croatia.

15 Q. Which ethnic group or groups responded to that mobilization and

16 which did not?

17 A. Primarily, those who responded were Serbs, the occasional non-Serb

18 would respond as well, but the vast majority of non-Serbs did not

19 respond.

20 Q. So the 343rd Brigade of the JNA was a predominantly Serb unit?

21 A. That is correct.

22 Q. Was that the case when it announced itself as the 43rd Brigade?

23 A. Yes, it is. It is, however, my understanding that still at present

24 the Serbs themselves do on occasions refer to the 343rd and the 43rd

25 as interchangeable.

Page 1107

1 Q. May I ask now that document that Exhibit 118 be presented to the

2 witness? Can you turn to the first page of that document, please?

3 At the top of the page this document contains a recount of the 5th

4 Kozara Brigade mobilization activity?

5 A. That is correct.

6 Q. Does it indicate when the 5th Kozara Brigade was mobilized?

7 A. It refers to 9th July 1991 as being the date of that.

8 Q. Where did that assembly take place?

9 A. It took place in Kozarusa, meaning just two kilometres or a few

10 hundred metres away from Kozarac.

11 Q. Would the same demographic conditions which you described a moment

12 ago in connection with the mobilization of the 343rd Prijedor

13 Brigade apply when the 5th Kozara Brigade was mobilized?

14 A. To my understanding, that is the case, yes. It is, however, not

15 noted in this article for what purpose they were mobilized at that

16 time. I do, however, in the context it can be read, assume that this

17 is the part of this Brigade which later takes part in each and every

18 battle listed.

19 Q. Were the military units which you have just indicated and the others

20 you spoke about before also assisted by other armed personnel?

21 A. Yes, they were. To my understanding, there were two military units

22 headquartered, that is, two JNA military units headquartered in

23 Prijedor, the one being this several time mentioned 343rd Motorized

24 Brigade, the other being so-called partisan Brigade, the 11th

25 partisan Brigade. A partisan Brigade is an ordinary designation for

Page 1108

1 a light infantry Brigade. It is only with the memory of World War

2 II and in honour of the partisans; that is the name used for this

3 specific unit which is an ordinary unit or was an ordinary unit in

4 the JNA. It was frequently characterised by being locally recruited

5 so that the people, lightly armed, easy to mobilize, easy to move

6 into a difficult terrain, would be very familiar with that

7 particular area.

8 So these were the two units located in Prijedor itself.

9 There was a larger headquarter of the 5th Corps and actually a

10 strong hold of the JNA, nothing wrong about that, but it used to be

11 located in Banja Luka. And, as mentioned, there were numerous

12 military and troop movements through Prijedor to reach the

13 battlefields in Croatia, and there were a number of units that were

14 moved into the area, located in the area, for a period of time to

15 move on; some, however, did not move on. Some of those who came

16 back or had stayed whether or not they , for the event they could

17 possibly be used in Croatia, some of these moved back.

18 It is not to me fully clear exactly which were the units

19 that moved back and which did not. But it is known that there were

20 huge troop movements even in early May 1992. This is the time when

21 the Serbs had taken power in Prijedor, and people would say in the

22 Kozarac area where the main highway to Banja Luka is, that heavy

23 equipment would pass that road for about half an hour at the time,

24 meaning there were huge movements of military equipment that had not

25 been moved far away at all events.

Page 1109

1 When the attack started, it was on Kozarac area in

2 particular. It was used a lot of heavy equipment, heavy artillery,

3 in particular, and it had been placed almost all around the area of

4 Kozarac.

5 Q. Were the military units which participated in the cleansing assisted

6 by the police as well?

7 A. They were assisted by the police, yes.

8 Q. Can I ask you to look once again at Exhibit 93? Looking quickly at

9 the first page of Exhibit 93, is that an article which celebrates the

10 day of the security services of the republic of Srpska?

11 A. Yes, it does. It is called the "Blue Angels" which has some

12 reference to their uniform.

13 The ordinary police uniform would be blue and the Serb police

14 uniform normally would

15 be light blue.

16 Q. Looking at the top of page 2 of that document, is there any

17 indication by Serbian officials that there was participation and

18 co-operation between the police and the military forces?

19 A. Yes, it is explicitly stated that things are happening in

20 co-operation with the police of

21 Banja Luka, Kozarac, Dubica and Sanski Most, the surrounding area.

22 Q. Does it indicate that the police of Prijedor also participated in

23 that effort?

24 A. And the policemen from Prijedor is also specifically listed.

25 Q. In addition to the military forces, the Police Forces, were

Page 1110

1 paramilitary forces also involved in the cleansing of opstina

2 Prijedor?

3 A. Yes, they were.

4 Q. How were they recognisable or distinguishable from the other forces?

5 A. They were not wearing the same uniforms always; in part they did, in

6 part they did not. That is to say a number of them would wear the

7 Kokarda, which is this special Cheknik hat. If my memory serves me

8 right, there is an excellent picture of that in the film

9 which was shown to you during Dr. Gow's testimony. I think it

10 is related to when

11 Seselj is speaking, and then you will have just after a few

12 people with the Kokarda and the three fingers lifted. I do not know

13 if that footage could be shown again, but the Kokarda is a very

14 special hat used by the paramilitary Chetnik groups.

15 There are different insignias being used; some are

16 recognised as being the insignia of the JNA; some are recognised as

17 being the former insignia of the JNA from which the five pointed

18 star, the red star, has been removed. I should add that in the

19 former Yugoslavia it used to be 24 months of military service in

20 the early 80s. Then it was reduced to 18 months. I do not know if

21 it was also reduced to 15 months before it came down to 12 months,

22 but it means that almost all males above a certain age had been

23 wearing this particular uniform for a considerable period of time

24 themselves, meaning that they were not asked to identify some alien

25 uniform, but it was the very clothing they had been wearing

Page 1111

1 themselves, the signs and insignias with which they

2 were very familiar indeed.

3 But they also saw a number of insignias new to them, such

4 as the one you

5 saw on the film when this paramilitary unit took over the TV

6 relay station on Mount Kozara. It is actually located at Mali Vis

7 or Lisnija which is a few kilometres up from Lamovita, not far from

8 Omarska. But there you saw the new Yugoslav flag and a

9 wolf within it.

10 You would see such insignias -- I am not familiar with

11 exactly this insignia having been seen in the onslaught of Prijedor,

12 Kozarac or on the left side of the River Sana, but they would see

13 the double headed eagle; they would see the cross with the four Cs;

14 they would see a number of berets which were not known to them as

15 being ordinary berets of the JNA units involved, and they would see

16 a lot of rag tag uniforms not easily distinguished.

17 But I should mention that a number of people also in the

18 proper JNA forces, or later what is called the Serbian army, did not

19 wear complete uniforms. There were a shortage of uniforms so

20 sometimes they would lack the military trousers or shoes or boots or

21 some part.

22 MR. TIEGER: May I have this marked for identification as Exhibit 120?

23 (Document

24 handed). (To the witness): Dr. Greve, does Exhibit 120 depict

25 one of the insignias you

Page 1112

1 have referred to?

2 A. Actually, it depicts one presentation of what is an insignia

3 referred to. This is the old Royal Emblem, to my understanding. It

4 is the double headed eagle and it is the cross

5 with the four Cs.

6 MR. TIEGER: I tender that for admission.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection?

8 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection, your Honour.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 120 will be admitted. But what is this now? Is

10 this a part of the uniform of the JNA, is that your testimony, Dr.

11 Greve?

12 A. No, this is a Chetnik insignia, if I may show you this?

13 Q. What do you mean by "Chetnik"?

14 A. "Chetnik", your Honours, deserves perhaps a little bit of

15 explanation. It is not a very precise name. That is to say,

16 Chetniks in the old time were heroes of the people defending the

17 local people from outside robbers, etc. They were veterans from

18 World War I, and they were appreciated as having fought on the right

19 side.

20 During World War II, there were numerous groups calling

21 themselves Chetniks, some were partisans and some joined hands with

22 the Nazis. The main Chetnik movement under the leadership of Drazan

23 Mihajlovic was a Chetnik movement that joined hands with the Nazis,

24 the Germans, the Austrians, the Ustashas and engaged themselves in

25 killing off both their own people and other people in the former

Page 1113

1 Yugoslavia.

2 "Chetnik" as a name today does give rise to different

3 feelings; some have very good feelings linked to it, but the way it

4 is being used in this present conflict, it has become the symbol of

5 the new nationalistic very right wing representatives of the war.

6 As a paramilitary group, they have got a reputation as being a very

7 brutal, right wing group that people are very afraid of.

8 Q. Led by whom and whoever the person would be is that person from

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina or Serbia?

10 A. I assume it is correct, and my understanding of this is slightly

11 limited, that there are several groups that call themselves

12 "Chetniks". It is like a generic term. There are a number of

13 groups, such as Arkan's group, Seselj's group, etc., with leaders in

14 Serbia proper who will be close to being identified as being

15 Chetniks.

16 If that is correct, or if actually the Chetniks should be

17 outside that groups as well, it may be a matter of how you would

18 want to identify Chetniks, but seeing as a symbol, this is carried

19 by many.

20 This is, if I may draw your Honour's attention to this

21 particular presentation, this is the Byzantine double-headed eagle,

22 the Royal Symbol, the eagle able to keep watch both to the east and

23 the west at the same time, or it may have other good meanings as

24 well, and it is the cross with four Cs. That is, it is the old coat

25 of arms

Page 1114

1 It is disputed whether what now appears as four Cyrillic

2 Cs, in our Latin alphabet it will be S, if that was actually Cs or

3 it was only a reflection of the cross to sort of make the cross more

4 visible to at the time a highly illiterate public. However, now the

5 Cs are interpreted as meaning only unity may serve, save the Serbs,

6 or it is translated as being St. Sava is the patron saint of the

7 Serbs. But you will see a variety of presentations of this.

8 Possibly it was difficult to recognise, but on the video you were

9 presented with yesterday from Kozarac there were a number of just

10 simple crosses and four sharp pointed Cs which is a variation of

11 this.

12 A number of groups that people considered to be Chetnik

13 groups, if I may phrase it this way, will carry the silhouette of

14 the double-headed eagle and have just the simple cross with simple

15 Cs, meaning S in our Latin alphabet.

16 MR. TIEGER: Dr. Greve, if I can ask you a couple of questions about what

17 you have just testified to? Prior to the 1990s, the most recent

18 incarnation or embodiment of Chetniks was associated with World War

19 II?

20 A. That is correct.

21 Q. Among the major group calling itself Chetniks was an extreme

22 nationalist group which cooperated with the Nazis?

23 A. It was actually the royalist wing and it was led by Drazan

24 Mihajlovic, and that was the reason why Tito and his partisans in

25 1943, at the end of 1943, decided to declare this as a purely Nazi

Page 1115

1 extreme group with whom they would not co-operate, and which

2 eventually led Churchill to break all relations with the same group.

3 Drazan Mihajlovic was executed after World War II.

4 Q. After World War II, were Chetnik symbols and Chetnik songs banned in

5 former Yugoslavia as nationalist symbols and propaganda?

6 A. Yes, they were, and like the Ustasha symbols, and one may mention

7 that on buses in the former Yugoslavia, you would have small notices

8 that would say: "In case you see someone who behaved in a manner

9 that may lead to ethnic hatred etc., please call this telephone

10 number and report"; whereas we would perhaps in a bus be advised of

11 whom to call in case of fire or an accident or something.

12 Q. In the late 1980s and early 1990s were the Chetnik symbols and songs

13 resurrected by certain extremist, nationalist groups?

14 A. The first time that really happened was at the celebration at Kosovo

15 Polje in 1989. It is also shown in the film "The Fall of

16 Yugoslavia".

17 Q. Were those groups associated with the concept and promotion of a

18 greater Serbia?

19 A. Yes, they were. When Tito broke with all these Chetnik movements

20 under Drazan Mihajlovic, they particularly stated that one of the

21 main aims of that movement had been greater Serbia.

22 Q. Did some of those groups form paramilitary units?

23 A. Yes, they did.

24 Q. Were among some of those groups the ones led by Seselj and Arkan?

25 A. As earlier mentioned, it may be correct to put Arkan and Seselj's

Page 1116

1 groups within a wider frame of Chetnik groups, but it may also be

2 possible to make more narrow determination of Chetnik, but they are

3 almost on the same line, yes.

4 Q. Among the emblems or insignias used by those groups, would be the

5 one depicted on the monitor?

6 A. That could come up among them, yes . I should, perhaps, add that

7 the eagle and the cross with the four Cs may not necessarily go

8 together. This was the one representation and that is the old Royal

9 symbol. They could be used separately and just as silhouettes as

10 well.

11 Q. Were persons from Serbia involved in these paramilitary groups which

12 operated in the Prijedor area?

13 A. According to the people they could hear from, the language they

14 spoke, that they were speaking Ijekavian which is easily

15 distinguished from their own language and which means that the people

16 originate from an area in Serbia proper.

17 Q. Dr. Greve, is it possible to calculate or know exactly how many

18 people, Muslims and Croats, were killed during the cleansing of

19 opstina Prijedor?

20 A. No, it is not possible to calculate at this stage, that is to say, I

21 assume that demographers will be able to do this after some more

22 time, but it has not been possible for me.

23 Q. Is that a figure which is in the tens, the hundreds, the thousands

24 or is there any way of giving the court some general sense of the

25 victims of the cleansings in opstina Prijedor?

Page 1117

1 A. Again it is difficult to say, state numbers exactly, but the

2 population was in about a year's time reduced by 53,000 people and, I

3 am afraid, I think the true figure is in tens of thousands.

4 Q. Can you share with the court some of the factors which assist in

5 gauging the extent of the destruction in opstina Prijedor and the

6 killing in opstina Prijedor? You indicated that 53,000 people were

7 gone from the area in a short time. Did the Serbian authorities

8 indicate how many people were processed for deportation?

9 A. That is one indication. The Serb authorities in Srpska opstina

10 Prijedor were very keen to have the papers and records in shape and

11 all that, so they wanted everyone to sign an exit visa, or an

12 application for an exit visa, where they handed over all their

13 property and they have later, when confronted with how many died,

14 that question from the media, they have been very eager to tell the

15 press that actually these people left voluntarily and wanted to

16 seek a better future elsewhere and "we", as they say, showed the

17 press 20,000 such applications, or actually applications of this

18 character with reference to 20,000 people. But, of course, that

19 make the question, and then what about the 53,000 others? Of

20 course, there must have been a number who have left without signing.

21 One other way of coming closer to understand the magnitude

22 of this is, perhaps, that the male group between 12, 15 and 55, 60,

23 65, perhaps, must have been, if we take that in a normal population,

24 about half and half of women and men, perhaps between one-third and

25 one-fourth underneath the age of 15, we have some very broad

Page 1118

1 understanding of the number of males that must have been in this

2 group.

3 We do, however, know that eventually when the males had

4 been segregated from the women's group and taken to the camps,

5 Keraterm and Omarska, they were proceeding from these camps not many

6 thousands people; approximately 1600 via Manjaca, just take a high

7 number and say 2,000 to Trnopolje from Omarska -- I think that is

8 far too high but just take a high number -- say they took 1400 from

9 Keraterm -- again a high number -- we have 5,000. I cannot, I am

10 sorry about it, I cannot make good, proper, solid estimates, but I

11 think there are very good indications in the very limited numbers of

12 people who left. But that is all I can say on this.

13 MR. TIEGER: First, your Honour, may Exhibit 92 be presented to the

14 witness once more? (To the witness): Dr. Greve, Exhibit 92 is an

15 interview with Simo Drljaca; is that correct?

16 A. Yes, it is the interview several times referred to when he is

17 appointed Vice Minister.

18 Q. If you would look at the fourth paragraph on page 2 and tell us

19 whether there is a reference by Simo Drljaca to the number of people

20 who were processed for so-called immigration

21 A.Yes, in this interview, Simo Drljaca, head of the Serbian police,

22 is referring to as to the extensive work, and it is the

23 understanding from all available information that this work was

24 really extensive, performed by the administrative, legislative

25 bodies. It is enough to say that more than 20,000 cases of

Page 1119

1 immigration by Muslim and Croat citizens were registered.

2 Initially, the officials when confronted by foreign press

3 would state that there were some casualties, a few thousand, and

4 there were so many extremists so they had to fight them. But after

5 about a year's time, there is no more such references, then they

6 have chosen another line of communication and this line of

7 communication is that these people were departing on their own

8 initiative seeking a better future in different other countries.

9 Q. But initially Serbian officials in opstina Prijedor acknowledged to

10 enquiring journalists that thousands of people had been killed,

11 although they characterised them as extremists?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When was the cleansing of Kozarac?

14 A. The cleansing of Kozarac, the attack started on 24th May 1992, and

15 it continued for about a month's time or so, that is, there were the

16 occasional round up going on for quite some time, but the main

17 achievements were made within two or three days.

18 Q. Was the Serbian army still picking up bodies in July?

19 A. Yes, they said they had a heavy task in picking up bodies in the

20 middle of the summer.

21 MR. TIEGER: May I have this marked for identification as Exhibit 121?

22 (Document handed). (To the witness): Dr. Greve, what is this

23 document?

24 A. This, your Honours, is again an article published in Kozarski

25 Vjesnik. It is dated 10th July 1992, and it is headlined "New

Page 1120

1 authorities beginning functioning in Kozarac".

2 MR. TIEGER: We tender 121 for admission, your Honour.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

4 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 121 will be admitted.

6 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): Dr. Greve, does this article concern the

7 tasks and responsibilities awaiting the new military and civilian

8 authorities in Kozarac?

9 A. Yes, it does.

10 Q. According to the Commander of a unit responsible for such things in

11 that area, what are the primary tasks in Kozarac at the beginning of

12 July 1992?

13 A. The primary tasks as of 10th July 1992 are to capture the remaining

14 small groups of Muslim extremists, to remove the corpses and to round

15 up the loose cattle. This is mid summer and it is very hot in the

16 area, and it is also known that a number of people would risk their

17 life in order to try to retrieve dead relatives and try to give them

18 a funeral high enough to bury their relatives, even if that meant

19 they would have to pay with their lives for so doing, so many must

20 have been removed long before this.

21 Q. Dr. Greve, in addition to the deaths of Muslims and Croats in the

22 opstina, what happened to the physical centres of the Muslim and

23 Croat community?

24 A. They were raised to the ground. Essentially, they were blown up,

25 they were wiped out. Initially, it was told to the press that all

Page 1121

1 the high rise buildings, such as mosques,

2 minarets, churches had to be torn down because it could be an

3 advantage position for snipers, but they did not tear down other high

4 rise buildings, or high rise meaning more than one storey, two

5 storeys.

6 Q. Were there many mosques in the Prijedor opstina?

7 A. Yes, there were quite a number.

8 Q. And religious institutions, educational centres, community

9 buildings?

10 A. That was also the case, yes.

11 Q. Were those the targets of destruction?

12 A. All of them, yes.

13 Q. What about the remaining property of the Muslim and Croat community?

14 A. All of that was looted and taken over. Officially, it was

15 documented that they had handed it over, signing exit applications

16 for exit visas, but all their property was taken over.

17 MR. TIEGER: May I have this document marked as Exhibit 122 for

18 identification, please?

19 THE WITNESS: It is acknowledged by the Serb authorities that this was

20 billions of dinar worth.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Let me just a ask a question about the last exhibit

22 that was on the monitor, 121: It says: "Captain Mirko Savanovic,

23 Commander of the unit responsible

24 for this area". Yesterday I am sure you told us about Captain

25 Savanovic and I may have just forgotten -- did you?

Page 1122

1 A. I did not.

2 Q. Then I did not forget. Tell us, who is he and what does this mean,

3 "of the unit responsible for the area"?

4 A. I am not familiar with Captain Mirko Savanovic prior to this report.

5 I think he may have been appointed local Commander and he could have

6 been a Commander previously. I assume that must have been the case,

7 but I have no specific information concerning him prior to this

8 information.

9 Q. Do you know what unit is being referred to, by number? I mean, is

10 this still the 43rd or 243rd?

11 A. 343rd.

12 Q. 343rd, excuse me, or 43rd; you said they were used interchangeably.

13 Do you know whether the unit that is referred is one of those two?

14 A. I am afraid I do not know that. This is in a period when most of

15 the people are, unfortunately, the non-Serbs are out of opstina

16 Prijedor, and this is a time when local command has not been easy to

17 establish beyond what has been available through media communications

18 and top level appointments which has been confirmed also outside of

19 Prijedor. So, although certain names have been mentioned on

20 occasions, I do not have firm information of this.

21 MR. TIEGER: Dr. Greve, can I ask you to look at Exhibit 122? What is this

22 exhibit?

23 A. This is another newspaper article from Kozarski Vjesnik. It is dated

24 30th July 1993. It is called "On the loot of public property".

25 MR. TIEGER: I would tender this document as 122 for admission.

Page 1123

1 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 122 will be admitted.

3 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): Dr. Greve, can I direct your attention to

4 the last paragraph of the first page? First of all, does the

5 article contain an interview or a report from Bogdan Delic, the new

6 head of public security station?

7 A. That is correct. He was the man to follow Simo Drljaca when Drljaca

8 was promoted.

9 Q. Does he indicate what happened to the Muslim and Croat community of

10 opstina Prijedor and to their property?

11 A. Yes, he is in the last paragraph referring to that about 50,000

12 people of other ethnic origins used to live within the territory of

13 the municipality of Prijedor. "The total of their property has been

14 unofficially estimated at several billion deutschemarks. A smaller

15 proportion of that property was destroyed during the military

16 operations, but most of it was saved". Then he is complaining about

17 this post being available to the community and then being looted by

18 Serbian officials.

19 If I may, as it may have catched the eye of your Honours,

20 mention that when "Keraterm" is used in the line above and said

21 "emptied overnight", "Keraterm" in this context means that it was

22 used as a storage area. So, "Keraterm" in this context is not

23 reference to the camp which we were describing yesterday.

24 Q. So this article contains Bogdan Delic's complaints about the loot of

25 public property?

Page 1124

1 A. That is what it does, yes.

2 Q. That public property is the property unofficially estimated at

3 several billion deutschemarks which belonged to the 50,000 people of

4 other ethnic origins who formerly lived in the territory?

5 A. Yes, and there are or articles and other reports when he speaks to

6 outsiders saying that everything from what were in their houses to

7 their cars, to their cattle, to their sawmills, to their production

8 units, to their bank accounts, everything is gone, which has also

9 torn apart the social fabric in opstina Prijedor, which is one reason

10 why he is addressing this issue.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I do not need to ask too many questions, but let me

12 if I can understand. From your testimony yesterday I believe you

13 said that there were 112,000 persons -- that was the population of

14 the Prijedor opstina?

15 A. That is correct.

16 Q. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Then you told us there was a percentage of Muslim, Croats and Serbs

19 and they were 40 something, there were very close with the Serbs and

20 Muslims. Tell me again.

21 A. There were 44 per cent Muslims; 42.5 per cent Serbs; 5.6 per cent

22 Croats; 5.7 per cent calling themselves Yugoslavs and 2.2 per cent

23 aliens; the Yugoslavs being those who found it convenient, mixed

24 descent or for political reasons, to confirm their faith in the

25 Yugoslavia.

Page 1125

1 Q. I am trying to get a fix, I suppose, on the number of persons of

2 non-Serb origin who left the area. This last Exhibit 122 said that

3 50,000 persons?

4 A. If I may -----

5 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me, if I may? I am sorry to interrupt but, your

6 Honour, I have an exhibit which may be of some assistance to the

7 court.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I just do not understand because earlier you said

9 probably the population was reduced by 53,000, but you did not know

10 how many had been cleansed and this exhibit says 50,000, and then

11 when I remember what you testified to yesterday, the numbers do not

12 mix, they do not fit for me -- will it?

13 MR. TIEGER: Yes.

14 THE WITNESS: It will, your Honour, if I am able to show you the next

15 exhibit, because I thought these figures would be inconvenient to

16 deal with without having them, sort of, spelled out on paper. So

17 this was prepared by me for that reason. If I may, your Honours,

18 when I say "cleansed" I mean both killed and deported. When I tried

19 to estimate numbers this morning, it was of people killed. That is

20 to say, trying to estimate how many within the group of 53,000 who

21 may have been killed in the process. That is what is so very

22 difficult. To estimate the numbers of those who have left or are out

23 is not difficult, according to the Serbian official figures for that.

24 MR. TIEGER: This exhibit is called out of order for the benefit of

25 Defence document 51, and this will be Exhibit 123. (Document handed).

Page 1126

1 (To the witness): Dr. Greve, this is the comparison chart that you

2 referred to?

3 A. That is correct.

4 Q. Is it based on the official census of 1991 and the figures which

5 appeared in the Kozarski Vjesnik in 1993 unofficially estimating the

6 number of people in the opstina?

7 A. It is called unofficial census results.

8 Q. The title of that article is "Who we are"?

9 A. "Who we are and how many", yes.

10 MR. TIEGER: We tender this for admission.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection?

12 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I have a question for the Prosecution. Is the source of

13 the article in the Kozarski Vjesnik one of the other exhibits, that

14 is, the article dated July 2nd 1993?

15 MR. TIEGER: Yes.

16 MR. WLADIMIROFF: OK, no objection.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 123 will be admitted.

18 THE WITNESS: Will you want to show the article first?

19 MR. TIEGER: It is already in evidence. Dr. Greve, using Exhibit 123, can

20 you explain the population changes within opstina Prijedor between

21 1991 and 1993?

22 A. Yes, the column to your left, your Honours, will be the one based on

23 the census, according to which the Serbs who were 42.5 per cent were

24 47,581 people. In 1993, according to this newspaper article, the

25 number of Serbs in the area was or were 53,637. That is, there had

Page 1127

1 been some new arrivals to the area, their number being 6,056. The

2 Muslims, on the other hand, who in 1991 had been the largest ethnic

3 group, 44 per cent of the population, were 49,351. In 1993, their

4 number had been reduced to 6,124. That is, the reduction was

5 43,227. The Croats, who were 5.6 per cent in 1991, then being 6,316

6 were in 1993 counted to be 3,169; a reduction of 3,147. I should

7 add that it is me who have been calculating the reduction for the

8 newcomers of the Serbs, but it is just calculations based on the

9 figures given.

10 Others, which is the group consisting both of Yugoslavs

11 and aliens, as the newspaper article of 1993 do not distinguish

12 between these groups, were 9,295, that is, 5.7 per cent Yugoslavs

13 and 2.2 per cent aliens. In 1993, their number was reduced to

14 2,622, that is, a reduction of 6,673 and, if one adds up the

15 reductions, it is just above 53,000.

16 I hope this will answer to your questions, your Honour,

17 but if you would like me to explain it any more, I am happy to try

18 that. For my own needs, I thought it was much easier to see it

19 visualised like this. That is why I had it prepared.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you assume that 20,000 were processed for

21 immigration, and if you then subtracted that number, the 20,000 from

22 the number of reduction, would you then assume that 30,000 plus had

23 disappeared by other means?

24 A. What I will say is that the Serb officials themselves say that they

25 can document the 20,000 left and they were very keen on documenting

Page 1128

1 this, to the point that the International Committee of the Red Cross

2 urged and advised people to give up everything, all their material

3 goods, and their right to stay in their homeland or, rather, to stay

4 in opstina Prijedor which to them was very important.

5 So, what happened to the 33,000, history will probably

6 teach us and the demographers, but I think the number of people

7 killed is considerable. I am sure some left without signing papers,

8 I am sure some were able to, as the newspaper articles say, leave in

9 Serb cars or with Serb identities or in coffins, but it sounds very

10 cumbersome and I do not think there were many.

11 JUDGE STEPHEN: That means that those who fled rather than seeking

12 permission would not be included in the 20,000?

13 A. Yes, your Honour, but it was not easy to flee this area.

14 Q. Of course.

15 A. It was encircled and those who were rounded up in nearby opstinas

16 were handed back and even the UN turned people back.

17 MR. TIEGER: One short question, Dr. Greve: the group labelled "others",

18 are those people who declared themselves as Yugoslav?

19 A. Yes, it does meaning they could belong to any other groups, Serbs,

20 Muslims, Croats; they were unlikely to be aliens.

21 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would tender this document as 124 for

22 identification and indicate, for the benefit of the Defence and the

23 court, I spoke too soon about the admission of the other source for

24 the document now in evidence and we will tender that now. (To the

25 witness): What is 124, Dr. Greve?

Page 1129

1 A. This is the article which the figures were based on printed in

2 Kozarski Vjesnik, 2nd July 1993. It is titled "Unofficial census

3 results. Who are we and how many?"

4 MR. TIEGER: We tender this for admission.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection?

6 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Just a minute, your Honour. Could you repeat?

7 MR. TIEGER: It will be document 7 on your list.

8 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection, your Honour.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 124 will be admitted.

10 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): Would you view that document briefly? Dr.

11 Greve, this is an article published in Kozarski Vjesnik?

12 A. That is correct.

13 Q. Which contains the unofficial census results ---

14 A. That is correct.

15 Q. -- prior to their official publication?

16 A. That is correct.

17 Q. This is the document on which the previous document is partially

18 based?

19 A. It is.

20 Q. Dr. Greve, for those 6,000 or so Muslims and 3,000 or so Croats who

21 remained in Prijedor after the cleansings, what were conditions like?

22 A. The conditions were very, very severe, that is, now there was a

23 period of time when they were almost lawless; they were called to do

24 dangerous and difficult work; they had difficulties in buying food;

25 they would be harassed; they had difficulties in going outside their

Page 1130

1 houses and all the time some people were killed. Among this group

2 there were many elderly couples and this really reached a peak in

3 early 1994. I think it is the Herald Tribune that in its issue of

4 19th to 20th March 1992 refers to the fact that 1,000 people came

5 forward to UNHCR and asked to be moved, all of them, it was too

6 small, the remaining Muslim villages and one small remaining gypsy

7 village, and a little later ICRC, the same month, reported that only

8 on 29th and 30th March 1994, 20 people were killed and that is a lot

9 of people in any small community at one time. This made both UNHCR

10 and ICRC urge the Bosnian Serb authorities to let them evacuate every

11 single remaining non-Serb from Srpska opstina Prijedor. It was

12 refused, your Honours.

13 Q. Dr. Greve, you refer to 20 people killed; what nationality or ethnic

14 group did those people belong to?

15 A. Muslims and Croats, they were identified as. It was among this

16 group numbers were

17 killed as their houses were set on fire or they were set on fire.

18 MR. TIEGER: May I have this document marked as Exhibit 125 for

19 identification? It is Defence document No. 33. (Document handed).

20 (To the witness): Dr. Greve, first of all, let me ask you to look at

21 that document.

22 A. This is a document that dates back to 3rd October 1992. It is a

23 press release by the International Committee of the Red Cross. It is

24 entitled "Saving lives in Bosnia-Herzegovina."

25 MR. TIEGER: We tender this for admission.

Page 1131

1 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is 125, Mr. Tieger?

3 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 125 will be admitted.

5 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): Dr. Greve, would you direct your attention

6 to page 2 of that document, please? This is an ICRC report in the

7 fall of 1992?

8 A. That is correct.

9 Q. Shortly after the events which you have just described, you

10 described during your testimony?

11 A. Yes, this is the intensive -- just after the intensive cleansing

12 period.

13 Q. Does the ICRC refer to its findings during that period?

14 A. Yes, it does and it is using an alarming language.

15 Q. How do they describe it?

16 A. They refer to the most basic principle of International Humanitarian

17 Law continue to be ignored in the field -- not violated, ignored.

18 Q. Do they indicate the conditions for people continuing to remain in

19 the area?

20 A. Yes, it does.

21 Q. How do they describe that?

22 A. Well, it starts with describing what has happened during the

23 so-called ethnic cleansing where tens of thousands, or hundreds

24 actually as it came out, have been forcibly displaced in inhumane

25 conditions. Hundreds and even thousands have died in that process.

Page 1132

1 This is for Bosnia-Herzegovina at large. It is not specific

2 reference to Prijedor, I should add. It is said that acts of

3 (indecipherable) and indiscriminate attacks have been carried out on

4 a massive scale; entire regions have been inaccessible to

5 humanitarian organisations for months and some still are at this

6 time.

7 Q. Do they then talk about the circumstances for those persons who

8 remained in the area?

9 A. They do. They say that, "Moreover, the ICRC is convinced that under

10 cover of a policy of 'ethnic cleansing' tens of thousands of members

11 of minority groups in areas controlled by the parties are still at

12 the mercy of repressive measures applied locally in accordance with a

13 discriminatory ideology. It is said that these practices are

14 inadmissible. The parties to the conflict cannot continue to claim

15 that such acts are carried out by groups of irregulars, since those

16 groups operate in areas which have been under the party's military

17 control for months".

18 Q. I would like you to move from October 1992 to May 1993. I would ask

19 that this document be marked as Exhibit 126 for identification.

20 (Document handed). What is this document, Dr. Greve?

21 A. This is another communication to the press issued by the

22 International Committee of the Red Cross. It is dated 7th May 1993

23 and headlined "Bosnia-Herzegovina, minorities in Banja Luka in

24 danger".

25 MR. TIEGER: We tender this for admission.

Page 1133

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

2 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 126 will be admitted.

4 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): Dr. Greve, in this document does the ICRC

5 indicate the conditions for remaining civilians in the Banja Luka

6 area in May of 1993?

7 A. Yes, they do. "The civilian population is under constant pressure

8 by armed groups who repeatedly beat, rob and threaten persons

9 belonging to minorities. The houses of such persons in Banja Luka

10 and nearby villages are regularly attacked and burned down by

11 uncontrolled elements". The Red Cross in this period refers, it is

12 known from the different other contexts to Banja Luka area as

13 including also Prijedor -- opstina Prijedor, that is.

14 Q. In that connection I would ask you to look at a document we will

15 mark for identification as 127. (Document handed). Dr. Greve, what

16 is Exhibit 127?

17 A. That is also a press release issued by the International Committee

18 of the Red Cross. It is dated 31st March 1994. It is issued in

19 Geneva where ICRC is headquartered.

20 Q. Does it concern a specific opstina?

21 A. It concerns opstina Prijedor.

22 Q. What is the source of that concern, what is the cause of that

23 concern, in this case?

24 A. In this case it is reported that "nine Muslims civilians have been

25 murdered in the last two days".

Page 1134

1 MR. TIEGER: I tender this document for admission.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

3 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 127 will be admitted.

5 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): Does the ICRC indicate whether or not the

6 murders of nine Muslim civilians in two days in March of '94 are just

7 the confirmed reports?

8 A. These are only the confirmed reports, yes. The ICRC later referred

9 to named lists.

10 Q. Did the ICRC condemn these acts?

11 A. They did.

12 Q. Did they attempt to take some action?

13 A. They took some very strong action. They sent the head of ICRC to

14 negotiate with Milosevic in Belgrade and negotiate to have them

15 entitled to evacuate the entire remaining population after this.

16 Q. Does the document refer to a specific message sent to any Serbian

17 leader?

18 A. To Radovan Karadzic.

19 Q. What was requested?

20 A. Requested "immediate measures to restore security to the Prijedor

21 area and calling for an end to such intolerable acts of violence

22 against minority population groups". But it was so violent at this

23 time that this was not considered enough. They sent their head of

24 the delegation to Belgrade to negotiate, to have them out and

25 Milosevic agreed and Karadzic refused.

Page 1135

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I do not see that. Where in the exhibit is it

2 indicated?

3 A. It is not listed here. It will come, I think, in the next exhibit.

4 I was perhaps -- or the next exhibit will not refer to the

5 negotiations but to the outcome.

6 MR. TIEGER: I would like this marked as Exhibit 128 for identification,

7 please. (Document handed). (To the witness): What is this exhibit?

8 A. This is information to the press from the International Committee of

9 the Red Cross.

10 MR. TIEGER: I would tender this document for admission.

11 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection, your Honour.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 128 will be admitted. We will see the date

13 on that.

14 A. It is issued in Zagreb, 7th April 1994, your Honour.

15 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): Dr. Greve, does this document indicate the

16 outcome of the ICRC's concern and efforts?

17 A. It does. It is indicating that the International Committee of the

18 Red Cross have taken immediate steps to increase its monitoring of

19 the protection of minority groups in the northern Bosnian town of

20 Prijedor. "These steps have been taken following the authority's

21 rejections of the ICRC plan to evacuate all members of the minority

22 population who wish to leave the area".

23 Q. Did the ICRC at that time attempt to visit Prijedor as frequently as

24 possible to monitor the condition that was referred to in the

25 previous exhibit?

Page 1136

1 A. Yes, they did.

2 Q. Does this document reflect the negotiations that you referred to

3 earlier?

4 A. Yes. It is only a few days between the previous press release and

5 the appeal to Karadzic, and this press release, and in between there

6 have been negotiations in Belgrade and there have been refusal by

7 Karadzic to let the people get out.

8 Q. That document also indicates, that is, the previous exhibit, that an

9 urgent message was sent to Dr. Karadzic requesting immediate measures

10 to restore security to the Prijedor area and calling for an end to

11 the intolerable acts which have been described in the previous ICRC

12 press releases and statements; is that right?

13 A. That is correct.

14 MR. TIEGER: I would like to have this document marked as Exhibit 129 for

15 identification and it is Defence 12. (Document handed). (To the

16 witness): What is this document, Dr. Greve?

17 A. This is again a newspaper article from Kozarski Vjesnik. It is dated

18 26th November 1993 entitled "Shoulder to shoulder with the army".

19 MR. TIEGER: We tender this for admission.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

21 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection, your Honour.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 129 will be admitted.

23 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): Dr. Greve, does this article recount a

24 celebration and recollection of the war efforts of the policemen of

25 Prijedor?

Page 1137

1 A. That is correct. "Boys in blue" is again a reference to the police.

2 Q. War efforts which you have described to us in your testimony in

3 connection with the armed takeover and cleansing of opstina Prijedor;

4 is that right?

5 A. Yes, and running of camps.

6 Q. On this occasion were awards bestowed on members of the police

7 department?

8 A. That is correct.

9 Q. Was an award bestowed on Simo Drljaca, the Chief of Police?

10 A. That is correct.

11 Q. Who presented that award to Simo Drljaca?

12 A. It is listed that the President of Republika Srpska, Dr. Radovan

13 Karadzic, awarded the medal, Petar Mrkonjic, to the police station in

14 Prijedor, and Karadordeva -- I should perhaps not try to read this in

15 Serbo-Croatian, I apologise -- to the former head and now assistant

16 in the Ministry of the Interior, Simo Drljaca.

17 Q. Thank you, Dr. Greve. I have no additional questions, your Honour.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You have no additional questions of Dr. Greve. Is

19 there any cross? We will stand in recess for 20 minutes now and then

20 you can organise your cross.

21 MR. KAY: I am much obliged, your Honour.

22 (11.15 a.m.)

23 (The court adjourned for a short time)

24 (11.40 a.m.)

25 Cross-examined by MR. KAY

Page 1138

1 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour. (To the witness): Dr. Greve, I have

2 some questions to ask you and perhaps if we can start with Exhibit

3 123 which you have referred to toward the end of your testimony. It

4 is the population change from what we have described as the official

5 census in 1991 and the unofficial census in 1993. First of all, in

6 relation to the official census in 1991, that was undertaken by usual

7 governmental agencies, I take it?

8 A. That is correct.

9 Q. By the department responsible in Prijedor for recording the people

10 within the district?

11 A. It was conducted in the former Yugoslavia according to procedures.

12 Q. Yes. What we have in 1993 which has been described as the

13 unofficial census, how did that take place? How was that recorded?

14 Who undertook that obligation?

15 A. That obligation was undertaken by the Serbian authorities then in

16 power in Srpska opstina Prijedor.

17 Q. Right. So that derived from the Prijedor district. Do you know who

18 actually undertook it and why it is called "unofficial"?

19 A. I do not know who took it or undertook to arrange it. I assume that

20 it could have been called an unofficial census because it was not a

21 year of an official census, but that is just a guess on my part. My

22 main concern with these figures is that these are the only figures

23 produced by the authorities in Srpska opstina Prijedor to explain to

24 the population who they are and how many they are.

25 Q. Right. These figures derived from that article you referred to in

Page 1139

1 the newspaper, Kozarski Vjesnik, under that title "Unofficial census

2 results; who are we and how many?" but they were not provided from an

3 official governmental document from the region or from Republika

4 Srpska?

5 A. If by "region" you refer to Banja Luka, they are not, to my

6 knowledge, confirmed at the time of the newspaper article by Banja

7 Luka. However, I have related to these figures also for the reason

8 that when UNHCR and ICRC were able to get into this area, which was

9 after the main phase of the so-called ethnic cleansing, they would

10 give aid, and they would ask the Serbian authorities how many aid

11 should be provided. Figures given to the aid community as

12 represented by ICRC and UNHCR were slightly lower than these figures,

13 meaning that when ICRC asked for total evacuation, the estimate was

14 that the remaining non-Serbian population was around 9,000.

15 Q. So for the provision of aid was the ICRC informed of the ethnic

16 composition of the local population?

17 A. It is my understanding that they were informed of how many target

18 groups would be there to receive aid, but of course at this time also

19 Serbian people would have some aid.

20 Q. When you are referring to aid that is being supplied by the ICRC,

21 that would of course be based upon a population, a group of people,

22 that required aid. If aid was not required, then they would not be

23 within the ICRC figures?

24 A. ICRC's main function, if I may, is to protect civilians, inter alia,

25 in the course of armed conflict. Geneva Convention IV relates to

Page 1140

1 this. The main function of aid assistance to be provided by ICRC in

2 this region was to look after threatened minority groups, for what

3 reason they needed to have an almost exact number of these people,

4 and to know where they could find them.

5 Q. So were the figures that were supplied to the ICRC their own

6 figures, or figures that had been supplied by the opstina Prijedor?

7 A. This I cannot answer for the reason that ICRC will not share these

8 kinds of exchanges in the process. What I know is this figure as

9 having been published, and I know the figure which ICRC refers to

10 when ICRC ask to move everyone out.

11 Q. Just looking at these figures and we see the column "New arrivals",

12 and there is a figure slightly over 6,000 indicating new arrivals of

13 Serbs, could they also have been people formerly under the "Others"

14 column who perhaps switched or adopted their identity of the Serb

15 people, so that they expressed themselves as being Serbs?

16 A. I do not think so. If I may, I would like perhaps to have this

17 newspaper article again because it explicitly refers to more than

18 5,000 of these people as refugees.

19 Q. Perhaps if we can -----

20 MR. TIEGER: It is Exhibit 124. Your Honour.

21 MR. KAY: Thank you very much, Mr. Tieger; perhaps if we can have that

22 produced?

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It might help if we had the exhibits on the

24 overhead projector.

25 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, your Honours -----

Page 1141

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I realise you have to look at it, but we can follow

2 your cross-examination better, I think, Mr. Kay.

3 MR. KAY: Does your Honour have this bundle of exhibits?

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, we have what was admitted yesterday, yes, we

5 do, but of course the population figures came in today.

6 MR. KAY: They have not been provided yet to you?

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Not yet.

8 MR. KAY: I am sorry. I did not appreciate that.

9 THE WITNESS: I will have no difficulties, your Honour, in reading from

10 both sides. It was only when it was far away I had every difficulty

11 with it.

12 MR. KAY (To the witness): Yes, Dr. Greve, we have there the article from

13 Kozarski Vjesnik dated 2nd July 1993. You wanted to look

14 specifically at the "Others" figure.

15 A. Yes, and my reference would be to the last paragraph in which it is

16 stated that, "5,451 inhabitants of Prijedor are resettled persons",

17 meaning people who are settled from outside, "of which 5,037 have

18 refugee status". I cannot read this in any way other way than

19 meaning that this is not simply a redeclaration by people who have

20 called themselves "Yugoslavs" previously and that has been recorded

21 as "Others", and now moved up as "New arrivals". If it could include

22 the odd exception, I would not exclude.

23 Q. Yes, because it is not inconceivable that people chose, perhaps, to

24 redefine their ethnic background and there would be no obstruction to

25 that?

Page 1142

1 A. To my understanding, Serbs who had declared themselves as Yugoslavs

2 were, nonetheless, considered Serbs, that is, participated in, were

3 mobilized into army Reserve forces, etc. So, it was not disqualifying

4 in that sense.

5 Q. No, but that is a slightly different issue, is it not, as to whether

6 they were accepted for mobilization compared with whether they are

7 included within the census returns or the census figures that we

8 have? Their acceptability for military service is a rather different

9 issue, is it not, from whether they would be within a particular

10 category of this so-called unofficial census?

11 A. It is a relative slightly different issue. However, I think it is

12 correct to take the words of the article as they are, indicating that

13 people are resettled in Srpska opstina Prijedor and qualify, as the

14 local authorities see it, as refugees and the number in this category

15 being a minimum of 5,037.

16 Q. Very well. I notice from the article of Exhibit 124 that it refers

17 to the Prijedor municipality, and your column of figures, Exhibit

18 123, refers to the opstina Prijedor. Are we dealing here in the

19 actual article with Prijedor town rather than the district of opstina

20 Prijedor?

21 A. We are dealing here with the opstina Prijedor. "Opstina" is

22 sometimes translated as municipality, sometimes as a district.

23 Q. For the overall district of opstina Prijedor, are not these figures

24 slightly low? Would not these figures perhaps apply to Prijedor town

25 itself?

Page 1143

1 A. It does not. If I may, "opstina" may be translated as district or

2 municipality, but there is

3 no such thing as "district opstina" Prijedor. The entity, the

4 district entity, or the municipality entity, including the town of

5 Prijedor and the surrounding areas, is referred

6 to as the "opstina", and this is not confined to the town.

7 Q. It refers to numbers of households as being 19,767. Would you say

8 then that this census refers to the total number of households that

9 were surveyed for the census in the opstina Prijedor?

10 A. I will say that this article refers to the entire remaining number

11 of households in Srpska opstina Prijedor and, as the film from

12 Kozarac area would show, there are immense destruction in the Kozarac

13 area, as it is in the Ljubija area. There are the odd exceptions,

14 Serb houses remaining, the orthodox churches standing, but there are

15 an immense

16 number of houses physically destroyed. For what reason, more

17 recently, when new

18 arrivals have come into Prijedor after what happened in August last

19 year in Croatian Krajina, newcomers have not so much been given

20 houses to settle in but been asked to stay in schools.

21 Q. Yes, you yourself said yesterday that, in fact, there was a great

22 deal of destruction after the original conflict within Kozarac; there

23 were looters, there were people pillaging

24 properties and damaging them which took place in the months and,

25 indeed, years afterwards?

Page 1144

1 A. I am not able to confirm that it took place in years afterwards. To

2 my understanding from those who have been in the area, it took place

3 in the second half of 1992, essentially.

4 Q. Yes, you have not actually been to this district, have you?

5 A. I have not.

6 Q. Even to this day, if people were still plundering houses, ripping

7 cable out of walls, taking pipes from buildings, that kind of

8 activity and event would not be something that you would know about?

9 A. Not if it happened on a small scale. I have, as rightly stated, not

10 been to Prijedor, but there have been aid agencies in particular in

11 this area and they have reported the main part of the destruction as

12 having taken place just subsequent to the so-called ethnic

13 cleansing.

14 Q. Because one of the problems that this district was faced with was

15 refugees from other areas of the former Yugoslavia also coming within

16 its district, and they themselves requiring housing, requiring to get

17 their hands on property to build shelter, to provide themselves with

18 materials to rebuild. For that they looked upon houses that had

19 already been damaged or were abandoned; is that not right?

20 A. No, we have to be very clear about which period of time we are

21 talking about. After

22 the war in Croatia, four areas (as marked yellow on one of the

23 exhibits previously) were ethnically cleansed with the consequence

24 that those remaining were Serbs. The areas around Prijedor were

25 ethnically cleansed with the consequence that those who remained

Page 1145

1 were Serbs.

2 So, if your question is when the refugees come to opstina

3 Prijedor, I would perhaps ask you to tell me what time period you

4 are focusing on and which refugees, as I myself see it a big

5 difference after August 1995 which is much after the so-called

6 ethnic cleansing of Prijedor and what happened back in 1991, 1992

7 and 1993.

8 Q. It is the case, is it not, that in 1992 there were Serb refugees who

9 were coming into this area from other parts of the former Yugoslavia?

10 For instance, Sanski Most?

11 A. For instance, Sanski Most is not an example. Sanski Most became an

12 ethnically cleansed Serbian controlled area. So if we talk of

13 refugees, we talk of central Bosnian refugees, we talk of people, we

14 talk about people who have crossed the front line close to Travnik,

15 Tobe(?), Doboj, Maglaj, in those areas, and they had a long distance

16 to move to come to Prijedor. But, as this article indicates, in 1993

17 there had indeed been some newcomers, their number was low.

18 Q. The figures that you have compiled here indicate over 6,000 new

19 arrivals being Serbs?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. That would rather indicate that they are refugees?

22 A. I accept that, yes.

23 Q. Yes?

24 A. But I consider that to be a lower figure.

25 Q. That may be a matter of judgment, as to whether that is high or low.

Page 1146

1 But in 1992 there were people who were coming from Bihac, for

2 instance; is that not right?

3 A. From Bihac, that is correct, yes.

4 Q. But you yourself in 1992, of course, were not in Europe in the

5 second half of 1992; you were in Cambodia?

6 A. That is correct.

7 Q. Yes, and until what period in 1993?

8 A. I came back to Europe the 9th to 4th February.

9 Q. Thank you. Again, looking at your column of figures on Exhibit 123,

10 and taking perhaps a middle year which is not in these columns of

11 1992, before the conflict started, in fact people were leaving the

12 area generally, people were unhappy with the mood between the ethnic

13 groups and people were perhaps returning to their own areas if they

14 were in Croatia to other parts of the former Yugoslavia and Serbs,

15 indeed, leaving the area to go, for instance, to Belgrade; is that

16 not right?

17 A. That is a statement on your part ---

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. -- and I am not able to confirm if Serbs went to Belgrade. There

20 have been movements, yes, but there are no reports of any large

21 movements in early 1992, meaning prior to 30th April. Actually,

22 there were restrictions on movement already a month or one-and-a-half

23 months prior to this, but I will not exclude that there were some

24 movements.

25 Q. There was a bus service to Belgrade that operated regularly from

Page 1147

1 Prijedor?

2 A. To my knowledge, the bus service went from Prijedor Auto Transport

3 Prijedor, to Banja Luka and from Banja Luka there were onward

4 transport, that is correct.

5 Q. There was the railway which we have referred to?

6 A. Which did go the whole way to Sarajevo and to Zagreb or vice versa.

7 Q. There are, of course, the roads and the auto routes which cover the

8 maps that we have seen?

9 A. That is correct.

10 Q. Yes. Perhaps if we leave this area then and move on to other

11 general matters. In your evidence over the last two days you have

12 referred to propaganda that was presented to the local population and

13 had been instrumental in affecting their views?

14 A. That is correct.

15 Q. By "propaganda" we talk about newspapers, we talk about radio, we

16 talk about television, is that right?

17 A. That is correct.

18 Q. Were there any other organs of propaganda that were being used to

19 influence the local population, statements from the local government?

20 A. I think there may have been statements from the local government

21 and, to my knowledge, statements from the local legally elected

22 government all went to the effect: "Remember World War II. Remember

23 the brotherhood. Remember the special fate of this particular area.

24 Remember that we are all brothers. We are intermarried. We have

25 lived in peace for 50 years. Whatever happens elsewhere, we do not

Page 1148

1 have to fear anything".

2 Q. This was a time as well of political birth in many respects of

3 various parties, as a democracy from a previously totalitarian state

4 was flowering, was coming into existence for the first time; is that

5 right?

6 A. I assume that is the character of building a democracy, yes.

7 Q. Yes, and I take that really from the terms of your evidence

8 yesterday when you were dealing with this subject, and you said that

9 it was difficult for people who had not had experience or political

10 democracy before to adjust to it?

11 A. That is correct. That is my understanding.

12 Q. What we had here then is a selection of political parties, SDS, the

13 SDA, HDZ, all competing for power and influence?

14 A. Yes. Let me, though, point out that when you mentioned HDZ they

15 have two members of the Assembly. So, obviously both the Reformists,

16 the Liberal Party and others who had 30 seats must have received also

17 a sizeable proportion of votes. It is only -- I do not know exactly

18 how many.

19 Q. Yes, the influence of the HDZ was not particularly significant in

20 this area as it might have been in other parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

21 A. That is correct.

22 Q. We have here then the two main political parties of the SDS and the

23 SDA competing, and their sources of information coming, presumably,

24 from different places. The SDS, where would you say its information

25 was coming from, how it was fighting its political campaign?

Page 1149

1 A. The SDS, meaning the Serb Democratic Party, was Serb Democratic

2 Party in Bosnia-Herzegovina with close links to Serbs elsewhere, but

3 the central location of the SDS in Bosnia-Herzegovina was Sarajevo.

4 Q. The SDA, its information and its political campaign, where would you

5 say that that was originating from?

6 A. Similarly I would say that the SDA, meaning the party for Democratic

7 Action which had many Muslim followers, also had its influence from

8 the capital of Bosnia-Herzegovina being Sarajevo.

9 Q. Political identities were being, political parties were perhaps

10 being able to be expressed or adopted by people for the first time?

11 A. I assume that is the case, yes, starting to be that is.

12 Q. Starting to be, and they were identifying themselves with one cause

13 or another?

14 A. With a cause, with a leader, with an idea, stumbling to try to

15 understand what is democracy.

16 Q. Yes. In relation to the SDS you have told us a lot about that over

17 the last few days. I would like to ask you now about the SDA because

18 that was active in the Prijedor area.

19 A. That is correct they had 30 seats in the Prijedor assembly.

20 Q. Yes, and very much identified by those from the Muslim background as

21 being their party?

22 A. Well, many Muslims must obviously have voted for other parties,

23 otherwise the percentage would have been higher. There were also a

24 few known Serbs who voted for this party. I shall not go into names,

25 but they were later to be found among the victims.

Page 1150

1 Q. I put a very general question to you there about the them

2 identifying essentially the SDA with the Muslim party. Do you

3 disagree with that or not? You said that a few Serbs may have voted

4 for it. You said that some Muslims voted for other parties. But its

5 identification was very much with the Muslim people?

6 A. Yes, I agree on that.

7 Q. Thank you. The local people in Prijedor who supported this party

8 were also campaigning on its behalf, both the parties, the SDS and

9 the SDA, were, so to speak, locked in a political battle for control?

10 A. That is correct, but I would take this opportunity to point out that

11 in contradistinction to the Serb party the Muslims had everything to

12 win to keep unity between the different ethnic groups at the time.

13 Q. Yes, but that does not prevent people from campaigning on behalf of

14 their party and adopting the causes of their party, does it?

15 A. No, I think that is the rule of the game in terms of democracy.

16 Q. And the Serb people, whether they had been told rightly or wrongly,

17 believed that the Muslim identity was a threat to them; that is what

18 they believed, the local people?

19 A. I think that is correct, yes.

20 Q. The polarization of these two communities starts to take place, one

21 side identifying with one particular party, the other identifying

22 with the other party?

23 A. Again, I think it has to be seen as being a distinction. I fully

24 agree that the Serbs started to feel very fearful of the non-Serb due

25 to the propaganda. I do, however, think still the Muslims, from what

Page 1151

1 can be recorded from this period, had everything to gain from

2 peaceful harmonious relationships and I think this was reflected in

3 the general thinking of the people.

4 Q. You say you think that it was reflected in the general thinking of

5 the people. That may not necessarily have been the case, would you

6 agree?

7 A. I will agree, but I would like to tell you that one of the

8 surprising things that have come up from witness statements -- and I

9 assume I do not have the same limitations now to answer your

10 questions as I imposed on myself previously in terms of what I am

11 entitled to refer to and not?

12 Q. That is a matter for the Court really over the issue of how far you

13 are able to go into information that others have told you.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I do not know what the witness is referring to. I

15 think perhaps what she is saying is that now she is on

16 cross-examination and the rules perhaps change a little bit. Let me

17 see what happens and then if you object as it being non-responsive or

18 not supported, I will hear it. I do not know exactly what she is

19 saying, although I think I understand what she is saying.

20 MR. KAY: Let us hear it.

21 THE WITNESS: Well, my statement was general so far; it may be more

22 important later. One of the things that comes true and that has

23 surprised me with the testimonies we have seen from more than or

24 close to 400 that was arranged under my supervision and the rest we

25 received from the US, the UK, France, Denmark Switzerland, is

Page 1152

1 actually that the Muslim community seems to have been taken by

2 surprise when it comes to the extent of violence and confrontation.

3 It seems as if they were perhaps considering that it could be a

4 difficult period, perhaps considering there could be fighting, but

5 they had not, I believe, in general imagined any of this which

6 speaks, I think and I think you will hear this from witnesses later,

7 speaks to the fact that I do not think the SDA and the campaign for

8 the SDA has been waged, and there is no information which contradicts

9 this on a basis on which the other groups were presented as real

10 threats, physical threats. Political opponents, yes.

11 Q. Just to make it clear so that we understand how you are in a

12 position to give this evidence, you refer to witness statements that

13 have been the statements taken from various people and provided to

14 you. They have been taken through interpreters, presumably, and put

15 into your language ----

16 A. Not ----

17 Q. --- or into English?

18 A. Into English, that is correct.

19 Q. So they have been taken through interpreters by someone else and

20 then provided to you?

21 A. That is correct, and that obviously opens up for the answers that

22 may have been left out.

23 Q. So, the source of your information comes through others. You say

24 that from your reading of these statements you get the impression

25 that people were surprised by what happened, and that is on the basis

Page 1153

1 of what you have been told?

2 A. That is correct. I should also add that at the end of the Prijedor

3 research project, so to speak, I was approached by a number of Serbs,

4 including people living in, having lived in Banja Luka, people living

5 in, having lived in Belgrade, and, as mentioned earlier, every source

6 we were searching through confirms this impression. So it is

7 primarily the witness statements which, yes, have been taken through

8 translators, but it is corroborated by all other available

9 information.

10 Q. These statements have been taken after these events have happened

11 some time later and when these two groups have become even more

12 polarized because of the events that have happened in the former

13 Yugoslavia?

14 A. It is correct that they have been taken afterwards, but it may

15 surprise you to learn that I feel they have not all become that

16 polarized, because the surprising thing is when you speak to people

17 from Prijedor of non-Serb origin, your Honours, they beg to come back

18 home and when you say to them, "Can you go back home to live with the

19 Serbs in Prijedor?" they look at you and go blank and say, "Of course

20 we can. It was not my neighbour in general who turned against me.

21 Yes, some did, but they were misled, misguided. We had no ethnic

22 hatred. This was a war which was organised, it was systematic, it

23 was widespread, but it was not originated from within Prijedor." They

24 want to go back and live together. Also the Serbs who approach us

25 say, "Let's find the truth. We will help you seek for the truth.

Page 1154

1 Only by seeking out those who were responsible can we in the future

2 live together and that is what we wish and that is what we want."

3 Q. Can I ask you then about some of the things that may have taken

4 place that you may or may not know about, you may not have been told

5 about them, I do not know, for instance, roadblocks in areas where

6 the Muslim people were in the majority. We heard your evidence

7 yesterday that referred to a roadblock at Hambarine?

8 A. That is correct.

9 Q. Where there had been a shooting?

10 A. That is correct.

11 Q. There two Serb people had been killed at the roadblock?

12 A. That is correct.

13 Q. You said they may be Eagles or Wolves; I was not quite sure which?

14 A. Bijeli Orlovi being White Eagles.

15 Q. But possibly it was not something you particularly knew about from

16 your own knowledge?

17 A. One of the people who were involved in that particular shooting

18 incident has given that information. That is my basis for saying so.

19 I have not seen it acknowledged anywhere to which group they belong.

20 It is not stated in the papers when they are honouring the people

21 within their own Brigades mentioned, etc., that these two people have

22 been honoured.

23 Q. Yes. They have not been described anywhere as having been Eagles?

24 A. That is correct, but they have also not been described as belonging

25 to any of the other official entities.

Page 1155

1 Q. Not to the police?

2 A. They have not to the police.

3 Q. I am asking you?

4 A. No, not as belonging to the police, not as belonging to the 343rd

5 Motorized Brigade, not as belonging to the 11th Partisan Brigade; not

6 as belonging to the 6th Sana Brigade.

7 Q. What we take from this, then, is that there is a roadblock?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. And free passage is being prevented into Hambarine?

10 A. In terms of passage with weapons, yes.

11 Q. In terms of passage into Hambarine, this would have been an illegal

12 roadblock, would it?

13 A. No, it would not have been an illegal roadblock. It has to be

14 considered that those who took power in Prijedor by armed force and

15 violence on 30th of April 1992 rebelled against the legal government

16 of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17 Q. If we just examine that. As I understood it, this was a bloodless

18 coup on 30th April?

19 A. By armed force but without a bullet fired according to the Serbs.

20 Q. So, from all accounts, not with violence; it was an armed takeover

21 but not with violence?

22 A. That is correct.

23 Q. What we have in this roadblock at Hambarine is any authority from

24 anyone to set it up? Any power from Sarajevo or anywhere else?

25 A. The police officials and the TO officials who had by this not given

Page 1156

1 up power, if they had not the majority had most probably done that,

2 may have acted as they deemed appropriate within their legal

3 authorities.

4 Q. So, it was a combination of the police and the Territorial Defence,

5 was it, in Hambarine?

6 A. That was not my answer. I was answering that both, some police and

7 some representatives of the TO may not yet have ceased to function.

8 That is what was illustrated also with the takeover in Ljubija on

9 22nd of May when the Serb authorities said they achieved a takeover

10 with a bloodless, well, a bloodless takeover once again. I did not

11 address who were the people at the checkpoint.

12 Q. Well, I am sorry, I thought you were rather indicating that it was a

13 legal roadblock?

14 A. Yes. I was saying that it could be police, it could be TO, that is,

15 it could be representatives of legal authorities.

16 Q. It could be anything, but could be's do not make it legal, would you

17 not agree?

18 A. I think there is a big distinction between what may be documented as

19 having been the case, and we may perhaps not be able to do this at

20 this point as evidence in court, but I am saying that if it is

21 established in retrospect that this was either police or TO, they

22 still had authority from legally elected, a legally elected

23 government.

24 Q. There were other roadblocks as well that were organised by Muslim

25 groups in the Prijedor area?

Page 1157

1 A. That is my understanding, yes.

2 Q. Kozarac itself had a roadblock off the main road to prevent people

3 entering into Kozarac without being checked?

4 A. It is my understanding that people were not allowed to enter into

5 the area with arms.

6 Q. Yes. Well, that is your understanding, but what you have is a

7 roadblock where people are armed at the roadblock into Kozarac; is

8 that not right?

9 A. I assume that is correct.

10 Q. Yes, and again the authority to put such a roadblock there came from

11 where?

12 A. Either the police or the TO if they were authorised, yes.

13 Q. And if they were authorised?

14 A. I am saying that if it was TO or if it was police they were, yes,

15 legal representatives of a legal authority.

16 Q. So what we have here in a microcosm in a small example is roadblocks

17 that are controlling what is happening in that particular area?

18 A. You have now referred to two roadblocks.

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. If that means that you think these two roadblocks controlled the

21 area, well, that is a statement.

22 Q. Right, but you are here as an expert witness to advise us on what

23 was taking place in Prijedor. Can you tell us about other Muslim

24 roadblocks that there may have been that you can name?

25 A. There was allegations that there was a roadblock in Jakupovici which

Page 1158

1 I may point out to you on the map, if I could have that?

2 Q. Exhibit 79.

3 A. I can in the meantime indicate to your Honours that initially Serb

4 officials would report there had been roadblocks (in the plural) on

5 the road from Prijedor to Banja Luka. Later they said there was one

6 such roadblock. This was the time when they were moving through a

7 lot of heavy equipment and tanks, etc.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you want the witness to use Exhibit 79, Mr. Kay?

9 MR. KAY: I think the witness asked to have it before her so that she

10 could point it out to the court, your Honour.

11 MR. KAY: Do you still need it, Dr. Greve?

12 THE WITNESS: Perhaps not. It is to explain about where it is located.

13 MR. KAY: I was going to say it is very simple just to explain where it

14 is. It is very near Kozarac.

15 A. I would not say "very near" but it is not far away. It is closer to

16 Lamovita but it is within that area and it is on the main road and,

17 depending on what we consider far and near, we may agree.

18 Q. But it is very easy to see on the map near Kozarac. Again, these

19 were Muslim roadblocks which were also being established in the name

20 of the SDA, were they not?

21 A. To my knowledge, not in the name of the SDA but in the name of the

22 legally elected authorities.

23 Q. But was not there an assertion by the Muslim population of their

24 identity and their right, and I make no criticism of this, that they

25 were identified with the SDA and they were acting in the name of the

Page 1159

1 SDA?

2 A. If I may make a comparison. I would assume in any one country if

3 there is a group who want to rebel by armed force, if people then

4 want to rally round the legal authorities, I think they will go for

5 the lawfully legally elected authorities and not for a body. It is

6 my firm understanding that they are rallying round and supporting the

7 lawfully elected government of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

8 Q. You are saying it then was not an assertion particularly identified

9 with one of the political parties?

10 A. I am saying it was people standing up for their lawfully elected

11 government in which the SDA, the party of the Democratic Action,

12 played an important role but it was not the key element. The element

13 was a lawfully legally elected government as recognised by the world

14 community.

15 Q. The TO, Territorial Defence, in these areas such as Kozarac and

16 Hambarine, at this stage in 1992 were primarily consisting of the

17 local Muslim population?

18 A. If I may I would like just to introduce your Honours to the

19 background of the TO.

20 Q. Perhaps you could just answer the question, first of all, and if it

21 needs to be followed up we can do so, but I have asked you the

22 question and, if possible, I would like you to answer it.

23 A. Yes, but it has to be kept in mind that the TO was part of high

24 school education, university -----

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think Mr. Kay wants you to answer to the extent

Page 1160

1 that you can "yes" or "no" and then, of course, explain. Is that

2 what you want Mr. Kay?

3 MR. KAY: Yes.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Dr. Greve, can you answer "yes" or "no" and then you

5 may explain as much as you consider appropriate.

6 A. I consider appropriate, your Honours, to state that those who lived

7 in an area would automatically be members of the TO in that area.

8 Tito was running the former Yugoslavia under a slogan "Let us live

9 so as if we will have peace for 100 years and do not consider there

10 may be war tomorrow".

11 So people's self-defence and community self-protection was

12 the subject taught at every high school, it was as Marxism of

13 obligation for every one student, meaning that even students second

14 and third year of high school 15, 16 years old, would be starting

15 to be enlisted in the TO. This was part of the total defence

16 approach whereby everyone was called upon to be party, to defend

17 their country. So everyone, girl and boy, living in an area from

18 adolescence onward would be enrolled in the TO of that area,

19 regardless of ethnic background.

20 Q. Let us take Kozarac itself. Do you know how many people were in the

21 TO in Kozarac?

22 A. I would assume that, again I do not have exact numbers, but to my

23 understanding the TO in Kozarac was set up exactly the same way as

24 elsewhere. Those women would not -- adult women would not serve in

25 the TO. Those who served in the armed forces or were Reserves or

Page 1161

1 were in the police or the police reserve, would not serve in the TO.

2 But there was a likelihood of most males not being in either one of

3 those two units, police or military, having reached maturity being

4 either straight in the TO or some kind of -- in a position to be

5 called into the TO.

6 Q. In 1992 do you know how many non-Muslims at the start of that year

7 were in the TO in Kozarac?

8 A. I do not know the exact numbers, no, but again it would be every

9 adult male living in Kozarac who was not in the armed forces, not in

10 the Reserve, not in the police and not in the police reserve, and not

11 for any particular physical reason exempted from that duty.

12 Q. You referred to males, was there not any female presence within the

13 TO and, indeed, in the Kozarac TO?

14 A. As stated, young girls were all introduced to the TO and there could

15 be the occasional service of women but, in general, the armed

16 services in the former Yugoslavia was for the males.

17 Q. So it comes to this, you cannot give us any numbers concerning the

18 TO in Kozarac, how many members it had and what the numbers of

19 non-Muslims were within that body?

20 A. The only thing I can give you is that I assume the percentage is

21 reflected almost by the percentage of the different ethnic groups

22 living in the area. I have no reason to indicate that there is a big

23 discrepancy between these numbers.

24 Q. So you do not know if Serbs, for instance, were excluded from being

25 able to participate in the local TO in Kozarac?

Page 1162

1 A. That is correct. I have no information or, rather, I have no

2 information to that. It is my understanding that at the time of the

3 road blocks Serbs had more or less left Kozarac.

4 Q. Other areas such as Hambarine, again, you cannot tell us as to the

5 numbers of non-Muslims within that particular branch of the TO?

6 A. Again what I can tell you is that I think it is reflected by the

7 population figures of that area.

8 Q. You do not know if non-Serbs were prevented from participating in

9 the Hambarine TO?

10 A. I do not know it, but I have read carefully the Kozarski Vjesnik

11 series of articles of how they took power in the Ljubija area -- it

12 is six, seven articles -- and there are no such references to this

13 having been a problem. The references would be that Serbs have been

14 mobilized already to join different units.

15 Q. The TO in this district of opstina Prijedor had also been mobilized,

16 had it not?

17 A. I think again it depends on what period we talk about. It is correct

18 that the TO again was being called upon just prior to the conflict,

19 but I think that is an answer that must be read in the context. If

20 my memory serves me right, I think I would like to call on page 50 in

21 Dr. Gow's exhibit from General Kadijevic to put this into a context,

22 because the TO had been considered by the former authorities, or

23 legally elected authorities, in the former Yugoslavia as being a

24 possible obstacle. So they had been entirely deprived of their

25 weapons and as General Kadijevic, who left office I think due to age

Page 1163

1 and health reasons in January 1992, establishes when he writes his

2 book in Belgrade in 1993, it had been efficiently ruled out as any

3 serious threat.

4 Q. You have given there a reference but I think you have quoted

5 reference fully; I do not know whether there is any particular need

6 for it to be put on the monitor, unless the court requires it.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No, I do not think so, unless you would like it, Dr.

8 Greve? It is Exhibit 30, if you need to find it.

9 THE WITNESS: Perhaps so that we can see? I mean, I am not particularly

10 sure of the page, but I think it is page 50, if I may, your Honours.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We did not get all the pages. I do not know whether

12 we got that page but I do not think we have -- yes, we have,

13 translated text page 50.

14 MR. TIEGER: The relevant reference is on page 50. Page 50 is a relevant

15 reference.

16 THE WITNESS: If that has been clarified, there is no need, your Honours.

17 I only did not want to mislead you.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Are you satisfied with the support -----

19 MR. KAY: I know the context of the answer and I know the reference and

20 how you support it. I do not think there is anything missing in

21 your explanation and the court, of course, is free to look it up.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Are you satisfied that page 50 supports the answer?

23 MR. KAY: The answer is the reference, yes. (To the witness): That, of

24 course, is not dealing with our particular area here of Prijedor, is

25 it?

Page 1164

1 A. It refers in general to the TO as a possible obstacle in Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina ---

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. -- with no exceptions made.

5 Q. Perhaps no exceptions were being thought of at the time; it is a

6 general statement?

7 A. I think it is more correctly to view this in the context that any

8 one area with a Serb minority population would have a particular need

9 for this to have been applied -- accepted and fulfilled.

10 Q. Yes, I have some documents to put before you now, if I can be

11 provided with them. What I have here is a bundle for your Honours,

12 Mr. Tieger has one. Perhaps we can give the witness the original

13 file. (Documents handed)

14 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, we have been presented with a copy of what I

15 presume is a bundle document counsel is referring to. However, we

16 have been given no information about the provenance of that document,

17 where it came from, what time period, what precisely it refers to.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What number will that be in terms of the next

19 Defence?

20 MR. KAY: Starting at Defence Exhibit 5.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I gather Mr. Tieger is registering an authenticity

22 objection or what, I do not know. When were you given this exhibit?

23 MR. TIEGER: This morning.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It, of course, can be marked for identification

25 purposes if this witness can identify it. That is the first hurdle,

Page 1165

1 if she can do it.

2 MR. KAY: This witness will not be able to identify it as it is not a

3 document from her. It is like the other documents produced by her,

4 it is from other sources, which is why I am taking this opportunity

5 to question her upon the matters within it.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What I am saying is that before an exhibit can come

7 into evidence, of course, it has to be identified.

8 MR. KAY: Yes.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Then it would be offered and then if there is a

10 question about authenticity, I am sure I will have to deal with that.

11 There may be another way for you to handle the questioning, but if

12 want to do it with an exhibit, the exhibit can only come in if we

13 pass those hurdles -- as generous and as liberal and free of

14 technical restrictions that we have.

15 MR. KAY: I understand and I have that very much in mind which is why

16 decisions were taken in relation to this last night.

17 What I have here is a series of documents that came from

18 Prijedor police station when the Defence visited it this year. They

19 relate to mobilization lists of the TO in the Kozarac area with the

20 names of the particular people concerned as well as identification

21 of weapons and signatures. These are obviously not original

22 documents and we were not given original documents, although the

23 original documents were filmed within a room on video by Mr. Orie

24 who was with me. We were only permitted to take copies of the

25 documents.

Page 1166

1 The documents themselves are lists of names for each

2 particular region or town or village, identifying, many of them

3 signed, who was within the TO and, as I said, referring to weapons.

4 As this is an expert witness who was drawn widely on her

5 sources to give her evidence and, indeed, has been frank about that

6 which was provided to her through other sources and conducted on her

7 behalf, and has referred to documents that were not prepared by her

8 but supplied to her, it is our submission that these documents again

9 may be admitted into evidence through her relating to these matters

10 that we wish to put before her as an expert witness.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is the question that I had. If she cannot

12 identify it, then I am wondering how it can come in. I do not know

13 how you want to use it, but it just seems to me that it is a little

14 difficult to get in an exhibit if someone cannot identify what it is.

15 If she can identify it -- maybe she can.

16 MR. KAY: I very much doubt it. I am sure that this is not a document she

17 would ever have seen, and the history and its provenance I have told

18 the court and how we had to obtain it.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: If you are suggesting then that this, perhaps, is

20 something that she should have seen that should have formed the basis

21 of her opinion, then the way for you to do it is to have it marked

22 for identification purposes; ask her if she can identify it and then,

23 of course, she cannot identify it, then at some other point you will

24 be able to establish the fact that she was unable to identify

25 documentation that you consider to be very relevant and important in

Page 1167

1 her forming an opinion. That is my point.

2 MR. KAY: Your Honour has given a very good route and I understand the

3 approach of the court. Perhaps a copy of it -- I am sorry, Mr.

4 Tieger wishes to address the court.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, Mr. Tieger?

6 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour. We do not wish to make this more

7 complicated than necessary. The Prosecution is certainly prepared to

8 accept the representations of Defence counsel in so far as the

9 provenance ---

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Authenticity, yes.

11 MR. TIEGER: -- of this document, yes. Issues of relevance and related

12 issues, of course, remain in so far as weight is concerned, but we

13 certainly accept his representations in that respect.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So there is no objection as to authenticity?

15 MR. TIEGER: That is correct.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good.

17 MR. KAY: That is very proper of Mr. Tieger, considering the

18 circumstances.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It will be marked as Exhibit 5, I understand, is the

20 next exhibit?

21 MR. KAY: Yes.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Will you mark for that identification purposes as

23 Defence Exhibit 5?

24 MR. KAY: Your Honour, this was originally set up for the computerisation

25 of the court. There are numbers in the top right-hand corner which

Page 1168

1 will have been on the computer screen under those numbers. Perhaps

2 a copy can be put before each of the learned judges?

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Again I suppose my concern is that it needs to be

4 identified by a witness and then it would then be considered, at

5 least, for admission into evidence after it had been identified.

6 MR. KAY: Yes.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So we are now at the first hurdle. Let us see if we

8 can get to that.

9 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, excuse me. Before counsel begins, for

10 housekeeping purposes, I am advised that there may already be a

11 document marked as Exhibit 5.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think it was, 5A, B and C or something, there was

13 an exhibit. There sure was.

14 MR. KAY: Are we on D6? I cannot remember when we first produced the

15 documents whether we were giving -- the Defence want a prefix of "D".

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: "D" for Defence?

17 MR. KAY: Yes.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is for sure. What Mr. Tieger is saying is

19 there is an Exhibit 5. As I recall, there was a 5A, B and C, I

20 think, and so now the "D" we are referring to is D6.

21 MR. KAY: Yes, D6. (To the witness): On the first page of this document

22 -- please take the opportunity to flick through it, Dr. Greve.

23 A. I started doing that.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: While we have been chatting, you have been looking

25 at it and you have before you what has been marked for identification

Page 1169

1 purposes as D6, Defence 6?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you identify it?

4 MR. KAY: First of all, the cover of this document is not part of the

5 content but was part of a folder that it came in. I do not know

6 whether you are familiar with the Serbian language at the front of

7 the document to describe it?

8 A. As earlier stated to the court, I do neither read nor speak the

9 Serbo-Croatian language; that is neither when it is in the Latin

10 alphabet and especially not when it is in the Cyrillic alphabet.

11 Q. On the second page is, in fact, the title called "List of

12 mobilization" which the Defence have had translated and inserted

13 there. Your Honour will see.

14 A. But that was on the cover, I understand.

15 Q. Yes. If one turns to the first page of lists, you see there various

16 names and Stab to Kozarac?

17 A. That is correct.

18 Q. Yes. Just turning over the pages rapidly, you see again further

19 lists of names with the front page of each list often with a place,

20 Kalate, Trnopolje, Benkovici, Kasovici. I am just giving the witness

21 the opportunity, your Honour, to look at the document.

22 A. Yes, I am flicking through it. I see long lists of names from and

23 also associated with areas in the larger Kozarac area. I see that on

24 a number of these people it is listed weapon by the side of the name.

25 I see no date listed to this.

Page 1170

1 Q. No.

2 A. May I ask when it is dated?

3 Q. There is not a date so ......

4 A. OK.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Maybe we will take an early recess, five minutes

6 early, for counsel for the Defence and counsel for the Prosecution to

7 get together. Perhaps we can resolve this exhibit. The Prosecution

8 has indicated that they have no objection as to authenticity; you

9 still though seem to have a problem with identification.

10 MR. KAY: Yes.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: If you want to use the exhibit with the witness, it

12 has to be identified, I suppose, and it has to come into evidence by

13 someone. Perhaps you can meet with the Prosecution and the two of

14 you can reach some agreement as to how it may come in, otherwise this

15 exhibit, perhaps, can come in at a later date and be properly

16 identified. Then you may want to then call Dr. Greve back to ask her

17 questions about this exhibit. To avoid that ---

18 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, we can avoid that.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: -- perhaps the two of you can get together.

20 MR. TIEGER: There is no need to get together. We can avoid that and we

21 will stipulate it.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good, then we will stand in recess until 2.30.

23 The purpose though of my asking you to get together is to avoid a

24 problem with identification that you are going to have, Mr. Kay, with

25 this witness getting this document in.

Page 1171

1 MR. KAY: I am aware of that, and I think it is fair to give her an

2 opportunity to look at it as she is on the witness stand at the

3 moment.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is not my real concern. I would like her to

5 have a lot of time to look at it but, more importantly, I would look

6 for the Prosecution and the Defence to get together to see if,

7 perhaps, the document can be admitted even though it is has become

8 apparent that this witness will not be able to identify it. Talk

9 about that over the noon recess.

10 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. We will stand in recess until 2.30.

12 (12.55 p.m.)

13 (Luncheon Adjournment) PRIVATE

14 (2.30 p.m.)

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, are you ready to proceed or do you want to

16 wait a few minutes?

17 MR. KAY: Your Honour, at the stage of the luncheon adjournment -----

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Why do we not wait just one moment? Mr. Orie is

19 conferring with Mr. Tadic.

20 MR. KAY: I am much obliged to your Honour. Before the luncheon

21 adjournment, we had reached the documents that were produced by the

22 Defence as D6. Mr. Tieger has spoken to me at the luncheon

23 adjournment. There is no objection from the Prosecution to the

24 production of these documents and putting them to the witness at this

25 stage in the proceedings. She has now had an opportunity over the

Page 1172

1 luncheon adjournment herself to familiarise herself with those

2 documents. (To the witness): Is that right, Dr. Greve?

3 A. That is correct.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So Defence Exhibit 6 then is admitted without

5 objection?

6 MR. TIEGER: That is correct, your Honour. There is no objection as to

7 the foundation.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No objection as to the foundation.

9 MR. TIEGER: Right. Of course, we reserve argument with respect to its

10 weight.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. The Defence Exhibit 6 will be admitted.

12 MR. KAY (To the witness): It may be appropriate at this stage to

13 familiarise the court with it as it is a new document. Dr. Greve, as

14 we dealt with very briefly before the luncheon adjournment, the

15 first page of this document has on the second page a translation in

16 English of those words, a list of mobilization, which you can see.

17 Thereafter, if we start at the first page which has as a reference in

18 the top right-hand corner A/1/2, there is a list of names numbered

19 from 1 to 28. You have a little bit of familiarity with Serbo-Croat,

20 do you not?

21 A. To the extent that I am able to identify names and to the extent

22 that I am able to identify the abbreviations, some of them, and some

23 of the weaponry, yes.

24 Q. That is what I thought. We see "STAB TO KOZARAC", "STAB TO" I said

25 which is the Anglisization of "TO" which stands for Territorial

Page 1173

1 Defence, TO, does it not?

2 A. I agree.

3 Q. Yes, "Stab", are you familiar with that word meaning "staff"?

4 A. Yes, from the Krizni Stab and similar, yes.

5 Q. We are working on the same level.

6 A. Well, you may be much more able than me. I can only humbly excuse

7 myself for not being familiar with names.

8 Q. Do not count on it. "STAB TO KOZARAC". Then we have stamped on

9 this document "TO BIH", standing for Bosnia-Herzegovina?

10 A. That I agree on.

11 Q. And "STO KOZARAC". On that page we merely have a list of names as I

12 said on A/1/2. Moving to the next page of A/1/3, whereas the

13 previous page was a handwritten list of names obviously in the same

14 handwriting, this is a typed out list of names; is that correct?

15 A. That is correct. It is added to it, as far as I can see, some

16 signatures and there are something written in addition on occasions.

17 Q. Yes, we see next to the names a line and there may be a signature or

18 there may not be and, as you also point out, there are other words on

19 it that indicate weapons such as "pistole"; is that right?

20 A. That is correct.

21 Q. We also see at the top of the page "Teritorijalna Odbarin BiH",

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, so the Territorial Defence, Bosnia-Herzegovina?

23 A. I agree.

24 Q. Yes, "STAB TO KOZARAC" again with a stamp. There are also the words

25 on the right-hand side, "VOD SUSICI"?

Page 1174

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Susici is a village in opstina Prijedor?

3 A. I assume that is correct, yes.

4 Q. Are you familiar with where it is on the map?

5 A. I would have to look, I have seen it, but perhaps I can see it if it

6 is worth using time on that, I do not know.

7 Q. I do not want to enter into some sort of exercise or test on

8 geography, but Susici is a place in the area?

9 A. Yes, I recognise the name, but I am not immediately to be able to

10 point where it is, but I accept your words that it is there.

11 Q. We do not want to take up too much time on that. Turning over to

12 A/1/4, again the names continue with the numbering that has proceeded

13 from the previous page. Again there are additional names written in

14 by hand; is that right?

15 A. That is correct.

16 Q. Yes. We see again Susici in the top right-hand corner?

17 A. That is also correct.

18 Q. A/1/5, "Staff of the Territorial Defence Kozarac" with a stamp and,

19 obviously, that is my translation.

20 A. That is correct.

21 Q. "Trnopolje" which we all are familiar with as being a place in

22 opstina Prijedor?

23 A. That is also correct.

24 Q. Yes. Again lists of names and signatures or writing by some of

25 them, if not all of them, and again mention on occasion against a

Page 1175

1 name, "pistole M48, pistol"; is that right?

2 A. That is correct.

3 Q. And A1.6 is a continuation of that previous page?

4 A. That is also correct.

5 Q. Again with the list of names, not all the names have a signature

6 against them or a name written against them.

7 A. This is correct, yes.

8 Q. Various writing. A/1/7 is a continuation of that page listing down

9 to 106 where the list ends against the name of Sejmenovic Mevludin --

10 apologies for my pronunciation -- but again a continuation of that

11 previous page?

12 A. That is correct.

13 Q. With references to "pistole" "puska" and "lovacka"; is that right?

14 A. That is correct. I do not know the exact meaning of the letter

15 mentioned, but it is correct that it is listed.

16 Q. Yes. As we turn to A/1/8, again Territorial Defence

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina Staff TO Kozarac, Kalata, a further list of names

18 with signatures, but a rather fuller column on the right-hand side

19 dealing with perhaps extra weaponry?

20 A. That is correct.

21 Q. That continues on page A/1/9 and on the third page, A/1/10, where it

22 is handwritten as a supplement to that list down to No. 80 in the

23 list of names?

24 A. Yes, I only noticed that this one, in contra distinction to many of

25 the other pages, has not any official stamp on it.

Page 1176

1 Q. Yes. That is right. I do not know whether your copy is like mine

2 which is taken off at the top?

3 A. I think it is -- but I have gone through this carefully and I may

4 say that there are many pages that lack this.

5 Q. The stamp?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Right. As we turn to A/1/11, we see the stamp again referring to

8 Trnopolje Elezi, again the Territorial Defence Bosnia-Herzegovina,

9 lists of names with various signatures against most of the names?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. On A/1/12, that page continues with the stamp, however, at the end.

12 A/1/13 has handwritten in the top right-hand corner Kamicani,

13 another district within opstina Prijedor; is that right?

14 A. It is a village, yes.

15 Q. A village, yes, sorry, another village within opstina Prijedor. We

16 again see lists of names with either signature or writing next to it

17 and references to various weapons?

18 A. That is correct.

19 Q. "Pistole automatska". That page continues on to A/1/14 where the

20 list there ends at 62 with the stamp, but on A/1/15 there is

21 handwritten continuation of that list but, as you correctly noticed

22 before, this is a page that is without a stamp?

23 A. Yes, and I am not able to read the numbers to make or to be sure

24 that this is a continuation of the previous page. It could possibly

25 be, but these are left out on mine and I have, when going through

Page 1177

1 this document, seen that these listed numbers lack pages, may jump in

2 pages, may add numbers. It is very inconsistent the way it is being

3 presented, if I may point that out?

4 Q. Yes, I will not take any criticism from us in relation to that. We

5 are presenting it as it was actually given to us in a bundle which I

6 think may assist the court. We have not altered any page order in

7 relation to this document. It is just as it came.

8 The best original version of this document, in fact, has 63 in

9 the top left-hand corner and the previous page, A/1/14, the last

10 number is 62. So, 63 appears to be a continuation and, like my

11 photocopy, your photocopy may be missing that vital "6"?

12 A. Yes. If I may say, it was not intended as any criticism, only an

13 observation since I was asked to go through this carefully and I have

14 done.

15 Q. Thank you very much. A/1/16, again we see the familiar form,

16 Kotlova, again another village ---

17 A. It may well be, yes.

18 Q. -- in opstina Prijedor?

19 A. As it is under the Stab in Kozarac, it must be in that area.

20 Q. Yes, and we see a list of 21 names only on that page and again, as

21 you have mentioned, the stamp is on that page. Menkovici at A/1/17,

22 that list continues listing some 130 names, perhaps even slightly

23 more, up to page 20?

24 A. I wonder what is the meaning of Menkovici? It could be a village

25 again, but I am not fully familiar with that. There are not all the

Page 1178

1 villages that are listed, but possibly one could check this against

2 the census and where people are registered. The good census, the

3 readable one, will have this and was an exhibit.

4 Q. Yes. Menkovici is just south of Kozarac, some five kilometres

5 south, I think, a few kilometres south. We then have at page 21 a

6 list of names, 1 to 7, but without any more specific identification

7 of area.

8 A. That is also true, and it is a general characteristic that there are

9 included a number of pages with no reference to area or not in

10 sequence with previous pages.

11 Q. Yes. But on that page it certainly mentions a nine millimetre

12 pistol?

13 A. That is correct.

14 Q. Yes. Turning to page 22, Stari Grad, presumably you know where

15 Stari Grad is?

16 A. Yes, that is the old town and it is not in Kozarac. So I have

17 difficulties in understanding that Stari Grad is listed by the TO in

18 Kozarac. It is in Prijedor town.

19 Q. Stari Grad was also a district of Kozarac; were you aware of that?

20 A. No, I am not aware of that.

21 Q. The old town of Kozarac?

22 A. As a different Naselje, Mjesna Zajednica?

23 Q. As a district of Kozarac known as the old town?

24 A. If there are quarters like that, I accept the word for it.

25 JUDGE STEPHEN: The words simply mean "old town" do they?

Page 1179

1 MR. KAY: That is right, your Honour, yes. (To the witness): We see again

2 the familiar TO of Bosnia-Herzegovina, staff TO Kozarac and the

3 stamp, and again a list of names with signatures and references to

4 some weapons; and on page 123, 23, the continuation of that, 24, 25

5 with some 107 names, not all of which though have signatures against

6 them or writing against them.

7 A. Yes, for your convenience, I may perhaps add that there are 2,767

8 people listed. I may have made a calculation mistake, but that is

9 the approximate number. I used a calculator.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: In the whole exhibit?

11 MR. KAY: Yes, that is right.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Are we going to go through this entire exhibit page

13 by page?

14 MR. KAY: I am going to speed it up having set the ground, your Honour.

15 If the court wants me to do it more slowly, I will do so, but I think

16 it is a fairly familiar document now as we go through it.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do it more slowly or more quickly?

18 MR. KAY: If the court wanted me to take it page by page or take it more

19 quickly. I am looking for an indication from the Bench.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Let us see, we have gone through about a fifth of

21 it. I would rather end it right now unless you have a reason for us

22 to go through each and every page.

23 MR. KAY (To the witness): Having given the witness the opportunity to

24 look at it over the luncheon adjournment, you can confirm that again

25 on these pages there are districts in the area of Kozarac which are

Page 1180

1 named on them where these lists are contained; is that right?

2 A. I can confirm that.

3 Q. As we have said, with signatures as well as mention of various forms

4 of weapons?

5 A. Yes, the format varies. On some occasion there is the sole

6 signatures, sometimes there is not a signature, sometimes there is

7 both the signature and the weapon.

8 Q. Yes, exactly. Let us move through to page 92 where there is writing

9 in Serbian and on the page behind on a further sheet a translation of

10 that into English as to what the typed wording is on each section.

11 "Territorial Defence of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina Staff

12 of the Territorial Defence of Kozarac CALL for the general

13 mobilization in the local commune of Kozarac which is part of the

14 Territorial Defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina", and then there is a

15 space for a name: "Failure to attend this call is a punishable

16 offence under the laws of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina",

17 and then various stamps relating to the Territorial Defence of Bosnia

18 and Herzegovina, Kozarac and the MZ of Kozarac?

19 A. That is correct. May I just ask you, in the document I have been

20 given there is no date, no signature. It could, of course, have by

21 accident not been represented in the translation, but I find no

22 reference to any dates; is that correct?

23 Q. Yes, looking at the original here, there is no date on it. This is

24 a photocopy of three sheets that have been put on one page in

25 Prijedor police station. So it is actually three documents that were

Page 1181

1 put on the same page.

2 A. But none of these documents, I understand, then had a date on them?

3 Q. A date at all, no, that is right. If we move to the next page, 93

4 -----

5 JUDGE STEPHEN: Can I ask you something about 92?

6 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour.

7 JUDGE STEPHEN: The original has a name that comes in if one looks at the

8 translation after the word "call", does it?

9 MR. KAY: It comes in after the Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10 THE WITNESS. Yes, it is a reference to the village, if I may say so.

11 MR. KAY: "Softic Suad".

12 JUDGE STEPHEN: It looks like a man's name.

13 THE WITNESS: Oh, sorry, yes.

14 MR. KAY: "Softic Suad" would be perhaps a name.

15 JUDGE STEPHEN: That comes in where in the original -- just before "call".

16 MR. KAY: It comes after "call".

17 JUDGE STEPHEN: After "call"?

18 MR. KAY: Yes.

19 JUDGE STEPHEN: So it is calling so and so, is it?

20 MR. KAY: Yes. It is after "call", the writing after "call" which has

21 been abbreviated "TO BiH", the familiar Territorial Defence of

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and then there is room for the name.

23 (To the witness): On 92 there are other names that have been reproduced

24 there, Senad, Softic, Nedzad.

25 93 is a similar kind of document with the name Softic Hasan,

Page 1182

1 Softic Sead and then Eolin, it seems on the third one, Edin or Edin.

2 Then the list again continues with other, Mahmuljini; 94 with a list

3 of names, handwriting against those names, as in 95, 96, Garibi, as

4 does 98 which is taking us towards the end of the document, 99

5 Besici, 100 Zerici, and 102 was the back page of the document as

6 presented to us which, perhaps, can be ignored.

7 You are quite right to refer to the fact that there are no dates

8 on these documents. Presumably, they will not have been documents

9 that you will have seen in your research?

10 A. I may have seen a footage presentation of some pages as Radio

11 Televizija Banja Luka on one occasion did show lists of names and

12 weapon attached, but I am not able to recall if it was any of these

13 specific lists and names. It is among the documents I have been

14 searching for as it was frequently referred to as vital documentation

15 by journalists but they were never entitled to get copies. I tried

16 to get copies.

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. There are people who are living and some who are allegedly killed on

19 these lists.

20 Q. That is right. So you will have seen this document or something

21 that looks similar to it within television footage?

22 A. I would assume that I possibly have done that. I do not dispute

23 that this is a document that you have obtained from the police

24 station in Prijedor.

25 Q. Yes. Thank you. As far as the documents are concerned, they show

Page 1183

1 lists of names for the Territorial Defence for various villages in

2 this area around Kozarac?

3 A. That is the way they can be read, yes.

4 Q. Yes. That is all I ask on this subject and we can move now from

5 that. I just want to move now to the time of the conflict and the

6 shelling of Kozarac as you described it on 24th May. The terms of

7 your evidence were that it appeared to be on all sides, be it from

8 the mountains behind Kozarac, or from artillery positions that were

9 further south perhaps the other side of the large lake fish farm.

10 A. That is correct.

11 Q. And maybe even other regions as well?

12 A. That is correct. That is to the west and the east ---

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. -- the area.

15 Q. And shelling that was liable to hit any property within Kozarac?

16 A. Which could absolutely hit almost any property. It was aimed at the

17 villages and at areas on the mountain side, the foot of the mountain,

18 where people were seeking refuge.

19 Q. And the weaponry we are talking about is what kind?

20 A. It is heavy weaponry, artillery, mortars, howitzers, this kind of --

21 grenade launchers.

22 Q. Yes, that can land anywhere, as you have rightly said, and damage

23 any sort of property within that district?

24 A. That is correct, but I also think ballistic knowledge from those

25 operating these weaponry is sophisticated.

Page 1184

1 Q. We are not talking here about ammunition that can be specifically

2 guided; it when fired is less precise than any guided kind of missile

3 through modern technology?

4 A. That is correct. There are weaponry with much higher or a much

5 better ability to target them and get the target, but also these

6 weapons were aimed at targets.

7 Q. Yes, targeting this particular area?

8 A. And possibly areas within the area more than others.

9 Q. Yes. In relation to the services, you said that services such as

10 electricity were cut off for non-Serb people, but all people lost

11 their services such as electricity?

12 A. I may remind that I also said that before the real attack on

13 Kozarac, essentially, all Serbs had left or the majority of Serbs had

14 left. If they had been in the area they would have had exactly the

15 same difficulties.

16 Q. Yes, thank you. Unless you had a battery radio to receive Radio

17 Prijedor or other radio stations, the electricity for the television

18 had gone?

19 A. But there were radios operating, yes. That was a means of

20 communication, that was the one of the means used for the ultimatum,

21 to my understanding.

22 Q. But that would have been radio that operated off battery?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Or some supplemental form of energy rather than plugging it into the

25 wall?

Page 1185

1 A. That is my understanding.

2 Q. Yes. Just one other again general matter: you have referred to the

3 camps of Omarska, Keraterm and Trnopolje. I just have a very few,

4 short questions to ask about those matters. First of all, Keraterm:

5 is it correct that there were, in fact, offices operating within

6 this large complex, it is a large building Keraterm, this ceramics

7 factory which also had offices within it?

8 A. It is correct that Keraterm was a large building. It is also

9 correct that when former detainees are making a map of this camp,

10 they are putting in a question mark as to what was the actual use of

11 certain areas to which they had no access.

12 Q. Yes. It is a building that has the means for making ceramics and

13 for storage of the appropriate materials for their manufacture that

14 was on a fairly large scale, a fairly large factory?

15 A. That is correct, and the part that was used for the camp were four

16 halls which was only one part of the entire complex.

17 Q. But there is a side of this building where there are other offices

18 that were used by other businesses?

19 A. Again, there is a side where there could be offices that could have

20 been used by other offices at this time of which, however, the

21 inmates are not clear. They were not given access to this area and

22 has not been able to explain what happened there.

23 Q. No. There was just one matter I wanted to clear up with you there

24 to give the picture of those premises which you also said were fairly

25 close to the main road?

Page 1186

1 A. That is correct.

2 Q. That is the main road that runs from Banja Luka to Prijedor?

3 A. That is correct.

4 Q. With the whole premises clearly visible from the road?

5 A. The outdoor part of the premises, yes.

6 Q. Yes. Omarska, you refer to people entering those camps. You said

7 they entered at night to commit beatings and killings upon people.

8 Were you aware of a pass that was required to be shown to enter

9 Omarska?

10 A. There could have been passes, but I am also aware of even from Serb

11 sources that if they wanted they could come to the camp. I do not

12 think my testimony has limited the access for outsiders to

13 night-time. I made a reference to this frequently happening at

14 night-time, but it could also happen at day-time, to my

15 understanding.

16 Q. I would like you to look at some documents here, and there are

17 copies for the Bench as well.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is this is a proposed exhibit?

19 MR. KAY: Yes, it has been provided to Mr. Tieger this morning.

20 MR. TIEGER: It has, your Honour. It has not come back from copying. I

21 would like to know if counsel has an additional copy?

22 MR. KAY: Yes, I do, one for the witness of each pile and one for the

23 judges.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will mark for at that identification purposes as

25 Defence 7. (Document handed). I have just handed two documents to

Page 1187

1 you, one in the Cyrillic script of the Serbian language but written

2 in Latin script the word "Omarska" and a name, Savic Drago, and a

3 number and then a translation into English which the Bench will see

4 follows the document.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you wish to offer this exhibit?

6 MR. KAY: Yes, I do, your Honour.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Has it been identified? Is there any objection?

8 MR. TIEGER: I do not know whether it has been identified. I assume it

9 came from the same source as the previous document, that is, the

10 Prijedor police station. We would treat it in the same way; we have

11 no objection. There is no need for the Defence to go through the

12 process of calling someone from Prijedor. We accept the -----

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Dr. Greve, can you identify Defence 7? Do you know

14 what that is?

15 A. To me, this is an entirely new document. I will not be surprised if

16 such a document has existed. I do not know if I should refrain from

17 commenting on the name that appears. Possibly, it will be -- the

18 Defence will tell us who this man is so I shall not go into that

19 part perhaps.

20 MR. KAY: This does not actually come from Prijedor police station, but

21 from a witness whom the Defence propose to call.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: As I indicated, our rules of evidence are very

23 limited and our procedure is going to be very open. I do not know

24 that this witness can identify it, but if there is no objection

25 Defence 7 will be admitted.

Page 1188

1 MR. TIEGER: I am sorry, your Honour.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there on objection?

3 MR. TIEGER: Yes, my understanding of the provenance of this document was

4 incorrect. Since there was nothing mentioned to distinguish it from

5 the other document, I assumed it came from the same source. Now we

6 hear it comes from essentially somewhere, a witness, and in essence

7 we are asking to stipulate to the admissibility of this document

8 without knowing anything about its source, when it was created, who

9 created it, in whose possession it was, who the person is who turned

10 it over and so on.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?

12 MR. KAY: Yes.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you intend to call a witness who will be able to

14 identify this exhibit?

15 MR. KAY: That is right. This is taken from the particular section of the

16 proof of that witness. It is being produced before this witness to

17 give her an opportunity to deal with it as she is an expert witness

18 and has advised the court on the circumstances of Omarska, Keraterm

19 and Trnopolje. One could avoid putting it to this witness at all,

20 but it does give her an opportunity to deal with it before we call

21 Defence evidence.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The only problem is identification.

23 MR. KAY: Yes.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Judge Stephen suggests that perhaps you tell us who

25 this witness will be who will be able to identify it; that will at

Page 1189

1 least put it in a frame of reference for us later on. We still have

2 a problem with the admission of this exhibit through this witness.

3 If this witness cannot identify the exhibit, unless the Prosecutor is

4 willing to waive any objections and allow it to come in as whatever

5 it may be, a piece of paper identified as Defence 7, we still have

6 that problem of getting it in.

7 MR. KAY: The witness producing it will be the person named on the

8 particular document. It has no need to become an actual exhibit yet;

9 it can be dealt with by this witness in cross-examination for any

10 comment she may have, because she has dealt with this subject

11 generally and we can produce it officially in the fullness of time

12 within the Defence case when we call the witness.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Rather than marking it as an exhibit, and I do not

14 know exactly what you plan on doing with it, why do you not just hold

15 it in front of you and ask the witness if she has ever heard of

16 whatever is on the front page, if that is what you are trying to

17 establish? She will say, no, she has never heard of that, or may be

18 she will say, yes, or whatever. The problem is just getting the piece

19 of paper in. It looks like it is just two pages and you can just ask

20 Dr. Greve whether she has ever heard of whatever is on the front

21 page.

22 MR. KAY: Yes, and the purpose for producing it was because she dealt with

23 the access to the camp at Omarska. I am giving her an opportunity to

24 deal with it.

25 (To the witness): Dr. Greve, you dealt with access to the camp

Page 1190

1 at Omarska. Here I am producing a document to you with an English

2 translation relating to an entrance permit into that camp of Omarska.

3 A. Yes, I see that and, as I testified yesterday and the day before,

4 people did enter (or this was only yesterday) people did enter

5 Omarska who were staff, who were occasional staff and who were

6 outsiders. I would not be surprised if none of these would have an

7 entrance permit, that is to say, the ordinary staff, the occasional

8 staff, I would find it quite reasonable they would have a permit, but

9 I have not seen such a permit before.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. So now you have what is marked for

11 identification purposes as Defence Exhibit 7. It has been shown to

12 the witness and she says that she has never seen it before.

13 MR. KAY: That is right.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It still will be a part of the record and when you

15 intend to call this particular witness, then you can have this

16 witness refer to what was marked for identification purposes as

17 Defence 7 that Dr. Greve could not identify, and then ask your

18 witness about that.

19 MR. KAY: That is right, your Honour.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You have accomplished your purpose.

21 MR. KAY: It is something we are just producing at this stage. It saves

22 having even to call this witness back again to deal with anything in

23 particular.

24 (To the witness): There we are; it is a document in a particular

25 name with an identification card number apparently with it ---

Page 1191

1 A. That is correct.

2 Q. -- and signed by Simo Drljaca.

3 A. That is correct, then head of the Serbian police, public security --

4 or, yes, it is actually signed on the original.

5 Q. Yes, being an entrance permit for access to the investigation

6 centre, Omarska?

7 A. That is the reading.

8 Q. Which is how you heard Omarska camp being described, as an

9 investigation centre, I believe that is what you said?

10 A. Yes, "military investigation centre" is the reference used normally,

11 yes, by the Serbs. I see here it is translated as "investigation

12 centre", I assume that is correct.

13 Q. Thank you very much. That is the end of that matter. Just one other

14 general matter as well dealing with calendars. You advised us

15 yesterday, having considered dates and dates that may conflict, of

16 the use of both the Gregorian and the Julian calendars?

17 A. Yes, the Julian calendar is a fortnight after.

18 Q. Yes. But these calendars are, in fact, printed together; if you

19 have a calendar in Bosnia-Herzegovina at this time, you would have

20 both sets of dates?

21 A. I have not seen that. I have asked for it but not been able to

22 obtain it.

23 Q. Very well.

24 A. So my information is from the authorised joint United Kingdom,

25 United States of America official calendar for 1992.

Page 1192

1 Q. As far as the Muslim people were concerned in this area, they would

2 have applied the Gregorian dates?

3 A. That would be it, but on occasions they would have made reference

4 not to a date but to a particular religious feast, and then came the

5 question who was the translator and how was this presented further

6 on, and there could be confusion on this.

7 Q. So dates identified by a particular event such as a religious feast

8 is something we are all familiar with, but in daily life in

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina the Gregorian calendar was the calendar that was

10 used?

11 A. In daily life in Bosnia-Herzegovina the Gregorian calendar was used

12 for everyday life. However, it was used by the orthodox church in

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina as being the basis for the religious feast and, as

14 I think has been demonstrated through some of the evidence presented

15 or the documents brought into evidence, there are many religious

16 feasts being celebrated and there is frequent reference to the feast

17 rather than to the date. That is why I thought it useful as it had

18 confused me possibly to pre-empt any confusion by just having

19 mentioned this.

20 MR. KAY: Thank you. I have no further questions.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger?

22 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour.

23 Re-examined by MR. TIEGER

24 Q. Just a few questions. Dr. Greve, with regard to the access document

25 to which Mr. Kay made reference, or to the possibility of an access

Page 1193

1 document, let me say that, was it your understanding that it was

2 possible to keep people out of Omarska camp during the period of it

3 operation?

4 A. I assume it could have been possible, yes.

5 Q. Were certain people kept out of Omarska camp, for example, members

6 of the ICRC during the period of its operation?

7 A. Absolutely. There was no international access before the camp had

8 been almost emptied in early August 1992.

9 Q. What about investigating journalists who might want to look into

10 what was happening in the camp? Did the camp authorities seem to be

11 able to keep them out?

12 A. Absolutely. The entire area was sealed off. They could not come

13 close to it even.

14 Q. Was it the understanding of those members of the media or people

15 from international humanitarian organisations that they were being

16 kept out because the authorities did want them to know what was going

17 on there?

18 A. That was their firm understanding, yes. It is also, if I may add,

19 the basis for many of the appeals from ICRC when they are in strong

20 language to be an agency that normally uses diplomatic language when

21 they are really asking access to these camps.

22 Q. Would that mean that someone who did obtain access to the camp

23 whether by pass or not would, presumably, be someone whom the

24 authorities in charge of the camp did not mind was in there and

25 seeing what was going on?

Page 1194

1 A. Yes, I think that can be stated without reservation.

2 Q. Was there anything about the access pass that Mr. Kay mentioned that

3 indicated that anyone who got in there had to be escorted around by

4 responsible camp officials to see that he or she did not do anything

5 the camp authorities did not want them to do?

6 A. Not to my understanding.

7 Q. Anything about the access document to which Mr. Kay referred that

8 suggested that anyone who got into the camp with a pass or not would

9 be restricted from doing anything he might want to do?

10 A. No.

11 Q. You were asked by the Defence about shelling and how accurate

12 mortars, cannon and artillery might be when fired from some distance;

13 do you recall those questions?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. Mr. Kay indicated that it was understandably difficult to control

16 the precise location in which those explosions might occur; is that

17 right?

18 A. That is the way I understood his question, yes.

19 Q. You have seen pictures and video footage of Kozarac?

20 A. I have.

21 Q. Is it fair to say that most, if not virtually all, of the structures

22 in Kozarac have been destroyed, whether by the initial shelling or

23 subsequent destruction?

24 A. Not all, as there are some marked exceptions.

25 Q. Among those exceptions would that include the Serbian orthodox

Page 1195

1 church?

2 A. That would be one such exception, yes.

3 Q. Would it also include the home and cafe of Dusko Tadic?

4 A. That would be one such exception, yes.

5 Q. I would like to ask you a few questions about the document which was

6 marked, if I recall correctly, as Defence 6A or D6.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The one that was marked for identification purposes

8 only?

9 MR. TIEGER: No, your Honour, the bundle of documents, the list of names.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, that is 6. That is in.

11 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): Dr. Greve, if you had received this document

12 as a member of the Commission of Experts, would there be some

13 additional information you would want to know about it?

14 A. My first question would be when is it dated, when was it compiled,

15 by whom would it have been compiled? Is it one document or is this a

16 set of different documents put together? Have they been put together

17 at different times? Have there been added information on them after

18 the originals were produced?

19 I do know, and I should perhaps take this opportunity to mention

20 it if I have not been exact on this before, that the prisoners or the

21 detainees in Omarska and Keraterm, some of them had been taken to the

22 police station in Prijedor or to the military barracks close to Urije

23 or an area an extension of Prijedor town prior to coming to Omarska.

24 In all these four locations, the two camps, Omarska, Keraterm, the

25 police station in Prijedor and the military barracks in Prijedor,

Page 1196

1 so-called "informative talks" were taking place.

2 I do know that a number of people were asked to sign lists of

3 paper and it is my understanding from reading the reports, many of

4 which are newspaper articles from the Serb authorities, that they

5 learned about weaponry through informative talks. So I also wonder,

6 which are the conditions under which someone has signed these lists?

7 Q. Was Simo Drljaca one of the officials in 1992 who was in charge of

8 the overall operation of the camp and the informative talks?

9 A. Yes, he was.

10 Q. Is it your understanding that Simo Drljaca is now the head of the

11 Prijedor police department?

12 A. Yes, and I think that one of the informations to sustain that claim

13 would be that Simo Drljaca is actually the one who signed what is

14 called Exhibit D7. So he was then Chief of Police. This entrance

15 permit to the camp is signed by him and that is the investigation

16 centre. There is every information he was head of police. He was a

17 member of the Krizni Stab. He was a key person then.

18 He was then promoted as of April 1993 to move on to Bijeljina

19 where the Ministry of Interior of Republika Srpska was located, but

20 he has later moved back into Prijedor and it is my understanding that

21 he is still with the Ministry of Interior but now with another

22 branch.

23 Q. So the documents that are contained in exhibit D6 were in the

24 possession of Simo Drljaca before they were turned over to the

25 Defence?

Page 1197

1 A. I assume that has been the case, but it could, of course, have been

2 in the hand of an assistant or been on a shelf, but he was the man in

3 charge then and now. So, obviously, he could have had a close look

4 at this before they were handed over to the Defence.

5 Q. In addition to the information you indicated you would want to know

6 before making an assessment of what D6 represented, would you also

7 want to know some information about any of the weapons allegedly

8 listed on the list?

9 A. Absolutely. I would want a proper translation of all the

10 information which I cannot read myself.

11 Q. Would it be helpful to know the age of the weapons?

12 A. That would indeed be very important, yes.

13 Q. The condition of the weapons?

14 A. Yes, and also the question of ammunition if that was available

15 together with these weapons.

16 Q. Dr. Greve, I appreciate you are not here as an expert on weaponry in

17 former Yugoslavia, but is it your understanding that the JNA was a

18 well equipped army?

19 A. Particularly when it came to heavy weaponry such as artillery, yes,

20 but the JNA at this time, meaning the Serbian controlled entity, had

21 almost all the good quality weaponry.

22 Q. Was it your understanding that conscripts in the JNA could generally

23 expect to get a weapon, to be issued a weapon?

24 A. Absolutely, all of them.

25 Q. Let me ask you to turn, if you would, to A/1/88; does that indicate

Page 1198

1 the village of Arifagici?

2 A. That is my understanding, yes.

3 Q. As you turn the page are there approximately 95 names listed?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Out of those 95 names, how many have a weapon, whatever that weapon

6 is or whatever its condition may be or however much ammunition may

7 have been provided for it, listed against their names?

8 A. If I read everything that is listed next to a name as meaning a

9 weapon, and I will do as a matter of convenience as I am not able to

10 say that some may not be a weapon, I see 10 added information, pieces

11 of information, that could be weapons.

12 Q. Out of the 95 names?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. That it is not your understanding, is it, of the way the JNA was

15 equipped?

16 A. To my understanding, everyone in the JNA had at least one normally

17 more weapons.

18 Q. Do you see any references here to issuing of canon or heavy

19 artillery?

20 A. I have seen none, but again I must apologise that there could be a

21 name I am unable to read.

22 MR. TIEGER: I have nothing further, your Honour.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?

24 MR. KAY: Nothing, your Honour.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Dr. Greve, you may be excused -- excuse me, I forgot

Page 1199

1 about you. Go ahead, Dr. Greve. Excuse me.

2 JUDGE STEPHEN: I had four questions I wanted to ask you, doctor. The

3 first one is, do you know anything about the signs that we saw in the

4 portion of the video that was shown of Kozarac which consisted of on

5 the houses a circle with a cross inside? Very many of the destroyed

6 houses seemed to have them. Do you know anything of that?

7 A. Yes, your Honour, and I included with it actually in my report on

8 Prijedor. It is a circle with an X inside it and it is frequently in

9 blue, and it is understood that this was a marking placed on every

10 house that after the initial attack and the initial destruction was

11 to be further destroyed.

12 Q. Then in part of your evidence talking of the various political

13 parties, you said "... and there were some leftist parties, the

14 Reformists, the Liberals". I did not know whether those two were

15 within the group of leftist parties because the names sound unlikely

16 or whether they were additional to the "some leftist parties"?

17 A. My intention was to present it clearly as being within the leftist

18 group. "Reformed" in this context means reformed communists.

19 Q. And "Liberals"?

20 A. And "Liberals" was also a word used for a leftist party, your

21 Honour. That is my understanding, but I have not gone deep into the

22 background to these parties.

23 Q. Then in describing Mihajlovic and his Chetniks, would you agree that

24 he is a very controversial figures and that amongst reputable western

25 historians he is very variously regarded as a hero or a villain?

Page 1200

1 A. I fully agree that that is the position among western historical

2 experts. My basic reference is to his position vis-a-vis the

3 partisans. They saw it needed to break with him. It was one of

4 their most important declarations at Jajce in 1943.

5 Q. Lastly, and this is something you may not be able to help me on at

6 all, we hear so much about ethnic cleansing -- that means in this

7 context moving the Muslims out of a particular area -- and yet you

8 also talk of the refusal to allow Muslims to leave. How are the two

9 reconciled? Why was there not an eagerness that they should leave?

10 A. I am guessing, your Honour, I do not know, but to me it comes across

11 as if they were afraid that if people were let out of the area they

12 would eventually want to come back home. This is my understanding.

13 I may in this context add that in 1942, that is, during World War

14 II, in Banja Luka there was a lawyer -- his name has slipped my mind

15 just at the moment -- he was associated with Drazan Mihajlovic, and

16 he is making some references to cleansing and ethnic cleansing, and

17 at that time he is proposing that cleansing would mean to remove, ask

18 people to leave the area, send Croats to Croatia, he is saying

19 Muslims to Turkey, etc. but at this modern -- well, it is not modern

20 -- in the present situation of ethnic cleansing in opstina

21 Prijedor, people were literally prevented from getting out for one

22 reason or another; it could have been that they do not want them

23 back, your Honour.

24 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you very much.

25 JUDGE VOHRAH: Dr. Greve, may I know how long you served as an expert on

Page 1201

1 the Commission of Experts and who was the Chairperson when you were

2 there?

3 A. I joined the Commission of Experts being appointed at 19th October

4 1993. I started working on 21st October 1993. I came in as the

5 previous Chairman had died,

6 Torkel Ophsahl also a Norwegian, and in the first session after I

7 was appointed it was also confirmed that the Secretary General

8 appointed Cherif Bassiouni as the new Chairman of the Commission of

9 Experts.

10 Officially, the Commission of Experts ended its work by end of

11 April 1993. That is to say, we were in this work for about six

12 months. However, we had to submit the brief report by then. I made

13 the analysis of Prijedor and submitted it on 6th -- excuse me, on

14 16th June 1993 and the final annex 5, which the report on Prijedor

15 is, was finished in terms of having taken out names and allegations,

16 particularly names of victims, was finished at the Easter time, 1995.

17 But I have remained interested in the issue and I have on many

18 occasions been approached by people whom I am asked or they have

19 asked me to submit material to this Tribunal.

20 JUDGE VOHRAH: Thank you.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, do you have additional questions in the

22 light of these questions?

23 MR. TIEGER: No, your Honour.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, do you have additional questions?

25 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

Page 1202

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Dr. Greve, once again thank you for coming. You are

2 permanently excused unless I hear an objection -- no. Then you are

3 permanently excused. Thank you.

4 Mr. Tieger, or who will call the next witness?

5 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I will be calling the next witness. Before we

6 proceed, we have a housekeeping matter which I think will actually be

7 of some interest to the court. The Prosecution wishes to produce and

8 admit into evidence a model of Omarska which the Defence has had an

9 opportunity to view, which we both think will be of considerable

10 assistance to the court and will expedite matters considerably.

11 So if it would be an appropriate time, I would like to bring it

12 in. One reason I wanted to mention it at the outset is that, under

13 some circumstances, I believe it is going to be helpful to use

14 overhead cameras to view inside the model, at least for the court's

15 benefit. I believe for the next witness, whether or not the cameras

16 are set up, that will not substantially impair the value of his

17 testimony vis-a-vis the model, but for later witnesses where we are

18 focusing more on particular parts of the camp, I think we will want

19 to do that, so the sooner we get to it, the better.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: There is no objection to the model coming in and

21 that will be an exhibit and it will receive a number?

22 MR. TIEGER: Yes. I would like to bring it in before the witness come.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: In terms of the overhead, are you saying that the

24 cameras have to be adjusted at some point and the question is

25 whether they should be adjusted now?

Page 1203

1 MR. TIEGER: We have worked already with the video technicians. To some

2 extent, the current cameras are helpful, but it appears that there

3 will be a need for one or tw

4 additional cameras probably placed in about this point, and I

5 gather they have the equipment to do so. But I think it would be

6 helpful for them to know that the court wishes them to do so in order

7 to aid viewing of the model.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You think we have a lot of pull, do you not!

9 MR. TIEGER: I do, indeed.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I still do not understand; we can go ahead with the

11 next witness. You can bring in the model if there is no objection.

12 It will come in as an exhibit. We will go ahead with the next

13 witness. I do not think how long that witness will need. You may

14 have an objection and I will get to that. Will the cameras have to

15 be moved and reinstalled for the witness after this next one? Is

16 that what you are suggesting?

17 MR. TIEGER: No. If I recall the witness order correctly, I think we will

18 have at least a week or two weeks to have the cameras set up in order

19 to use the model properly.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I see. Then in a week's time even we can encourage

21 that the cameras be installed. Very good. Now about the model, Mr.

22 Orie?

23 MR. ORIE: Your Honour, the Defence has no objection against using the

24 model, but we identified at least on one point that it is not

25 correct. It might be totally irrelevant so we reserve our right that

Page 1204

1 if it comes any specific part of that model to object against the

2 correctness of the model. We expressed this already on one single

3 point to the Prosecutor, and we do not think at this moment that it

4 might be relevant, but it may become relevant and then we will point

5 at the incorrectness of the model.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, do you have anything to say? The model

7 then can come in except, as I understand, you will have an objection

8 to some portions of it, perhaps, at a later time. So again, since

9 this is a trial at least to the court, I presume that even though we

10 may have seen some section that later on there is an objection to, we

11 would disregard that; is that what you are saying?

12 MR. ORIE: Yes, we might object if it comes to a certain point and we will

13 say, "The model is not correct in this aspect" and, therefore, we

14 object then against using it for that particular reason at that

15 moment.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger?

17 MR. TIEGER: I think that is well taken. We are not offering the model as

18 the exact representation of Omarska in each and every detail and

19 individual respect. It is clearly accurate enough to be of

20 considerable assistance in this case.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Then what number will that be?

22 MR. TIEGER: 130.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What number will that be?

24 MR. TIEGER: 130, your Honour.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you want to bring the model in now before the

Page 1205

1 witness?

2 MR. TIEGER: I think that would be a good idea.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, very good. 130 then will be admitted. Mr.

4 Niemann, Judge Stephen has just raised a question about the exhibits

5 that were offered today. On the index to the documents that were to

6 be tendered by the Prosecution on page 3, there was a change in the

7 numbering of the exhibits beginning with, I think, 123. 123 became

8 126 and there were some other numbers. I think all of this was

9 occasioned because of a question perhaps by me. In any case, would

10 you please submit a new list for the Trial Chamber with the correct

11 listing?

12 MR. NIEMANN: We will do that, your Honour.

13 (The model was brought into the courtroom)

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, I think the Chamber will take its recess

15 now and then you can finish putting the model together and Defence

16 will be able to look at it to make sure it is at least put together

17 properly. I understand there are objections. So we will return 20

18 minutes later.

19 (3.48 p.m.)

20 (Adjourned for a short time)

21 (4.15 p.m.)

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger?

23 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. Before we begin, it is not necessary

24 but you may wish me to explain quickly the logistics of using this in

25 case the court has any questions about it. As you might have been

Page 1206

1 able to see earlier, the model can be taken apart for various

2 purposes but primarily to show the inside of the structures. So, you

3 can take off the roof and show the upper storey of each building, and

4 then the upper storey can be removed in addition to show the entire

5 ground floor. So that whatever portion of the camp may be relevant

6 to any particular witness's testimony, it can be displayed.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Would you call your next witness, please?

8 MR. TIEGER: Yes. The Prosecution's next witness is Muharem Nezirevic.

9

10

11 MR. MUHAREM NEZIREVIC called

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you take the oath there, please?

13 THE WITNESS [In translation]: Yes, I will.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Would you please take the oath? Would you read the

15 oath and take it?

16 THE WITNESS: Yes, I will. I will. I solemnly declare that I will speak

17 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

18 (The witness was sworn)

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated.

20 Examined by MR. TIEGER

21 MR. TIEGER: Can you tell the court your full name, please?

22 A. My name is Muharem Nezirevic.

23 Q. Where were you born?

24 A. I was born in Prijedor on 20th October 1993 (sic).

25 Q. Is that where you lived your entire life until the conflict in

Page 1207

1 Prijedor in 1992?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Where did you go to school?

4 A. I went there to the primary school, then I continued with two -- I

5 went to secondary school, the gymnasium, and after that I went to a

6 teacher training secondary school. Then I started working as a

7 teacher and I studied at the Teacher Training Academy at Banja Luka

8 where I graduated from in 1974.

9 Q. Did you serve in the JNA at some point?

10 A. Not fully. I was there twice. In 1964 I was at Trupja and then

11 after a medical check up they discovered I was ill and I was sent

12 home for a temporary recovery. In 1966, I was called up again and I

13 was at Backo Topola where I was for several months doing my military

14 service. They discovered I had a heart failure and so I was

15 permanently discharged.

16 Q. You indicated you went to teachers college. Did you teach for a

17 period of time?

18 A. Yes. I worked as a teacher for 12 years up until 1978, up until 1st

19 April 1978. Then I changed my profession and I started to work for

20 Radio Prijedor.

21 Q. What positions in Radio Prijedor did you occupy during your time

22 there?

23 A. At first I was a sports journalist, then I worked for the cultural

24 programme, the educational programme and then I was promoted and I

25 became editor-in-chief of Radio Prijedor.

Page 1208

1 Q. How many radio stations were there in Prijedor?

2 A. There was only one radio station.

3 Q. Was there a newspaper?

4 A. Yes, there was. There was a newspaper called Kozarski Vjesnik and

5 that was a weekly published on Fridays.

6 Q. Was there a relationship between Kozarski Vjesnik and Radio

7 Prijedor?

8 A. It was practically the same, the same, one publisher editing

9 journalist house. The journalist worked both for Radio Prijedor and

10 for Kozarski Vjesnik, and those that had radiophonic voice worked

11 slightly more for the radio than for the newspaper.

12 Q. At some point did you work for both?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Among your responsibilities as editor-in-chief of Radio Prijedor,

15 did you direct the activities of the staff?

16 A. Yes, I worked for the offices and I did not have other duties and my

17 work was to organise the work.

18 Q. Did you also perform or did you continue to continue to perform

19 direct journalistic work after you became editor-in-chief?

20 A. Yes, practically, I was more a journalist than an editor because I

21 liked it, and nobody could stop me and put me in an office just to

22 sit at a desk and only organise. I wanted to work as a journalist.

23 Q. Did you cover political events in the opstina?

24 A. Yes, I did. For almost 10 years I was following the activity of the

25 Prijedor Assembly and at almost all the meetings of the executive

Page 1209

1 board, which is the executive body of the municipality, I was there

2 almost every time, I was covering it, and it took place every

3 Thursday.

4 Q. Did you personally know local leaders of the opstina?

5 A. Yes, I knew almost all of them.

6 Q. What is your ethnic background or nationality, sir?

7 A. I changed my ethnic groups according to the system. First of all, I

8 was undetermined, then I was Yugoslav and then in 1991 I declared

9 myself as a Muslim.

10 Q. Perhaps you can tell the court during what periods of time you were

11 defined in those particular ways?

12 A. Up until 1974 when a new constitution was adopted, to us, Muslims,

13 we were not allowed to declare ourselves as Muslims, but we were

14 forced by political measures to be either Serbs, Croats,

15 Montenegrins, Slovenes or, if we did not want any of those, we had

16 the possibility to be unspecified. After 1974 it was possible to be

17 a Muslim, not as religious belonging, but as a National belonging.

18 The only difference was that the religion was with a small letter;

19 whereas the National belonging was with a capital "N". Neither

20 theoretically nor practically did I agree with the use of a name of a

21 religion for a national group, so I decided to be a Yugoslav.

22 Q. During the period of time you were growing up in opstina Prijedor,

23 up to about the time of the elections, what were relations like

24 between the ethnic groups in opstina Prijedor?

25 A. I would simply say that they were excellent, and that at no time we

Page 1210

1 could see differences between nationalities. Never has anyone asked

2 anybody else, "To which nationality do you belong?" -- at least where

3 I was.

4 Q. Did people associate only with members of the same national group or

5 ethnic group?

6 A. No, no, never -- no, I cannot really say "never", there would be

7 people who would choose a friend and it would be somebody who was

8 from the same nationality, but that was neither the rule or the

9 principle that people would be friends according to and socialise

10 according to their nationality. The only way one would choose a

11 friend was according to the personal characteristics and values and

12 not according to somebody's nationality.

13 Q. Did people from the different ethnic groups attend each other's

14 religious or cultural festivals?

15 A. Yes, certainly. Personally, as many of my friends, I used to go to

16 almost all the Serbian festivals and then they would come to -- the

17 Serbs would come to the religious festivals of Muslims and I used to

18 go to the midnight mass organised by Catholics at Christmas. I had a

19 friend who is now a priest and I used to go to the orthodox church

20 to ring the bells there, so we respected one another. We respected

21 all religions that existed in the area where I lived.

22 Q. Did people associate together on those formal occasions, like

23 parties?

24 A. Yes. Maybe in that region we liked socialising, associating,

25 friendships. Reasons were found just to be together, be it sport

Page 1211

1 events or cultural events or politics, less in political events, but

2 the mentality was such, it was depending on what people liked really.

3 Q. Did you bring a tape with you that contains footage, home video

4 footage, of a party at which Serbs, Muslims and Croats are

5 associating?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. I would like to show that tape now, your Honour, as Exhibit 131 for

8 identification.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Has the Defence seen the video?

10 MR. ORIE: Yes, your Honour.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to 131?

12 MR. ORIE: No objections, your Honour.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 131 will be admitted.

14 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): Mr. Nezirevic, as the tape is being shown

15 perhaps you can help us out by pointing out who belongs to which

16 ethnic group as they appear on the screen.

17 A. Yes, I will do that.

18 (The video was shown)

19 THE WITNESS: I am sorry, I cannot see. I do not know where to turn in

20 order to be able to see. I cannot see anything. Could you tell me

21 what button I should press, please? Thank you.

22 THE WITNESS: This is Silvije Saric, he is a Croat. This is Enes

23 Sarajlic, he is a Muslim. This is a group of friends from Kozarac.

24 This is Burhudin Kapetanovic. Ilijaz Nemic. This is Ankica and this

25 is Slobodan Kurozovic. This is Muha, Maljkovic, Moharem

Page 1212

1 Denhuzavic, Rizah Beglerbegovic, Hamsalija Kapetanovic. This is

2 Dijane, Drajan,

3 Josip, Djuro. As I said, this is Silvije, this is Dusko. This is

4 Drago Kukobat, he is a Serb. This is Silvije Saric.

5 Q. Did Silvije Saric have a political position in -----

6 A. This is Vlado Grubisic.

7 Q. What nationality is he?

8 A. He is the son of a Croat and a Serb, a Croatian man and a Serbian

9 woman.

10 Q. Can we stop the tape at this point, please? Perhaps the technicians

11 can move the tape forward to the 1991 party which has been marked and

12 I will ask the witness some questions in the meantime. First of all,

13 Mr. Nezirevic, you mentioned Silvije Saric, was he involved ----

14 A. Saric, yes.

15 Q. Was he involved in any political party in and, if so, what was his

16 position?

17 A. He was the President or the Chairman of the HDZ at Prijedor.

18 Q. You mentioned Slobodan Kurozovic, was he involved with any political

19 party?

20 A. He was in the SDS party in Prijedor.

21 Q. I would like to ask you a few questions about the nature of the

22 ethnic communities in Prijedor. Was the Muslim community of Prijedor

23 a fundamentalist community?

24 A. Never. Never. I never noticed anything like that.

25 Q. For example, how many people would you submit would go regularly to

Page 1213

1 religious services?

2 A. Five to eight per cent, and the oldest people, the elderly, would

3 usually go to the mosques on Fridays at noon. I could see a small

4 group wearing French type of berets that would pray and then go back

5 home.

6 Q. What about the Serbian community, was that a strongly observant

7 religious community?

8 A. No, I did not notice that. They did not observe it too much, the

9 Serbs. There was a church in the centre of the town, and I would see

10 rarely a younger person. They are usually elderly people and those

11 who really did want to go there and abide by their religion.

12 Q. During the time you were growing up was religion any sort of barrier

13 between the individual citizens of Prijedor?

14 A. As far as I could notice, no.

15 Q. We noted that you were able to point out on the tape who was Serb,

16 who was Muslim, who was Croat; were you able to do that because you

17 knew those people?

18 A. Only because I knew them, only because I knew them personally, and I

19 know that they belong to a particular nationality, that is, and a

20 particular religion.

21 Q. Were there some ways of recognising who was a member of a particular

22 ethnic group if you did not know them? Did first or last names, for

23 example, indicate whether or not someone was a member of a particular

24 group?

25 A. Yes, one could know that according to their names and first names,

Page 1214

1 much less according to the last names. The Muslims names were very

2 characteristic and different than the first names of Serbs and

3 Croats. But when one came to last names, there were many cases that

4 the same last name was to be found among the Serbs, the Croats and

5 the Muslims.

6 Q. Were there also some last names which were distinctively Serb, Croat

7 or Muslim?

8 A. For Muslim that could be a bit more true; for example,

9 Beglerbegovic, Hadzimustavic, Hadziahmetovic, Ahmetovic or Nezirovic.

10 Some last names were really characteristic only for that

11 nationality; whereas for the Serb and Croatian nationality it was

12 very difficult to say. There was a case when I was with a friend and

13 his name is Blazo and I was constantly telling him "Blaz". Then at

14 some stage he said: "Why do you call me Blaz? My name is not Blaz".

15 I said: "How?" "My name is Blazo". I said: "What is the

16 difference?" And he said: "'Blaz' is a Croat whereas 'Blazo' is a

17 Serb". There were so many very small differences.

18 I also know of another case when we were discussing names, we

19 would be discussing very often things. The Croatian names, for

20 example, they are all the same in Croatian and Serbian names except

21 for "Ivan" and "Jovan". "Jovan" is a name you cannot find among

22 Croats.

23 Q. Was that true for the younger generation than for the older

24 generations in Prijedor?

25 A. A great difference. Young people were more progressive. They wanted

Page 1215

1 to go to the west. Modernisation came and greater economic

2 emancipation, progress, disco clubs, videos, new technical equipment,

3 contemporary films and they started to give names according to TV

4 series, films, some sports personality or cultural personalities. I

5 know at Kozarac, for example, there was somebody called "Dejvi" or

6 "Glen" Ahil. There was even a name "Genije". "Dejvi" was with me at

7 Manjaca; "Glen" was with me at Omarska. Then you could find

8 "Irena", "Sanja" or "Dijana". These were the names in our regions,

9 some new more modern names.

10 Q. Can we show the party in 1990? Perhaps we could run the next tape

11 and see the,...how people were associating in 1991.

12 (The video was played)

13 Q. Again can you point out who is Serbo-Croat and Muslim?

14 A. A Serb, a Muslim, and this is a Muslim woman married to a Serb, then

15 a Muslim. A Muslim, this is a Croat and a Serb. This is a Serb, a

16 Croat, a Muslim. A Serb woman. His name is Djuro, then Josip. He

17 is a Serb married to a Muslim woman.

18 Q. Can we stop the tape, please? Mr. Nezirevic, in the interests of

19 time, that party from 1990 continues; is that right?

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 1991.

21 MR. TIEGER: I was going to clarify that. (To the witness): The tape

22 indicator showed 1990, is that the correct date?

23 A. It is 1991 in February. There is such video tape here from February

24 1991.

25 Q. The party from 1990 that we saw, does it continue and show dancing

Page 1216

1 and drinking and general party festivities?

2 A. Yes, you could see that was in February '91. We met once again and

3 we were more numerous then. I think there were more than 200 or 300

4 people there. What is important here, these are real representatives

5 from Prijedor, and we all loved nature. There was at the Mountain

6 Kozara, there was a mountain refuge there. We would not look at who

7 belonged to what kind of a profession or what nationality; people who

8 loved to associate and who loved nature would go to that refuge and

9 that was chosen so that people from all walks of life would meet,

10 engineers, teachers, hairdressers. So the love for the nature was

11 not determined by any kind of national or religious structure.

12 Q. I bring your attention now to 1990 when the elections were held.

13 Before that time what kind of system was there in former Yugoslavia?

14 A. Before that time there was the socialist communist system. I could

15 not determine that precisely because I am not an expert for that

16 matter, but the communists were in power.

17 Q. As the system of communism began to break down eventually in 1990

18 democratic elections were held?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Before the time of that election, did you become aware at the

21 beginning of any nationalist movement within former Yugoslavia as the

22 communist system began to break down?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. With which ethnic groups or what ethnic group was that movement

25 associated?

Page 1217

1 A. First of all, I saw that such movements appeared in Serbia.

2 Q. How did you become aware of that?

3 A. Through the media, television, newspapers, radio and other, but

4 mostly through newspapers and television.

5 Q. Who were some of the leaders or promoters of that movement as you

6 came to learn of it through the media?

7 A. I did not quite understand that question. Do you mean politicians

8 or who were people who did that?

9 Q. First of all, who were politicians associated with that nationalist

10 movement before the time of the elections?

11 A. Before the elections a man No. 1 was Slobodan Milosevic.

12 Q. Were there others associated with that nationalist movement as

13 well?

14 A. Yes, there were others too. If I may, I should like to go back even

15 before Milosevic emerged: there were various things, publication of

16 books with nationalistic content such as, for instance, "The Knife"

17 by Vuk Draskovic -- I read that book -- then "Golubnjaca"; then poet,

18 Rajka Petrov Nogo; Lubarda, painter, who ended up in Belgrade, and

19 who were saying that Bosnia was a dark land for them, dark

20 (indecipherable); then the memorandum of the Serbian Academy of

21 Sciences and Arts appeared and said about the peril threatening the

22 Serb people, and then Milosevic entered the scene and after he visit

23 to Kosovo and his famous centres, and "Nobody may beat you", he

24 became the most popular person among the Serb people.

25 Q. You mentioned Draskovic, did he advocate an expanded or greater

Page 1218

1 Serbia?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What did greater Serbia mean? Did it indicate the borders of that

4 entity?

5 A. I have read books on history. The Serbs always indicated that Czar

6 Dusan, their great Czar, in the remote history who at the time

7 created the largest estate in the Balkans. Then for two years, or

8 perhaps for a year, a year and a half or two years, I happened to

9 come across a Belgrade magazine called "Praticna Jurna" and I saw the

10 map of greater

11 Serbia. That map covered Serbia, then the corridors, Slavonia,

12 and then Krajina towards Croatia, then out to, access to Karlovac and

13 then to the coast, into the Adriatic.

14 In the beginning such phenomena in Yugoslavia such as, for

15 instance, that all Serbs had to live in one state, it sounded rather

16 incredible. People did not take it seriously but it began to gain

17 momentum.

18 Q. Did the media show events or rallies at which Serbian nationalism or

19 a greater Serbia was promoted?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Where were those rallies held?

22 A. More often than not such rallies took place in Serbia. There was a

23 huge rally at Gazimestan in Kosovo, then another one in Belgrade at

24 the mouth of the Sava into the Danube. It was announced very

25 pompously as the rally of 1 million people. In Prijedor, I met Slavko

Page 1219

1 Gavronovic who told me, more or less confidentially, in confidence,

2 or I could not quite understand what he was saying, he said:

3 "Tomorrow morning we shall be leaving with two or three buses to

4 bring down the unprincipled coalition".

5 Then a Serb rally was to be held in Ljubljana in Slovenia and

6 that was also announced in the press: "We shall go; we shall hold

7 it; we are off". I must say, I said some misgivings, I feared

8 incidents or something, but then it was cancelled. I do not know

9 why.

10 Q. Did some of the Serbs from Prijedor manifest an interest in these

11 rallies or attend these rallies?

12 A. With the exception of what this Slavko Gavronovic told me, that they

13 were going to overthrow the unprincipled coalition, in practice, in

14 life itself, I did not feel anything like it.

15 Q. Were symbols displayed at these rallies?

16 A. Yes, and what came as a surprise to me because we, the former

17 Yugoslavia, were a country of partisans, a country which liberated

18 itself, which fought against fascism and after the war as a child I

19 was, after World War II I mean, I was brought up and educated in the

20 spirit of communism, partisan victories. At that time at school and

21 always I said that apart from fascists our enemies were domestic

22 traitors, Ustase and Chetniks. When I saw Chetnik symbols which was

23 publicly brandished at the rallies or being sold around, a group I

24 should say of professional rally-goers headed by a gentleman called

25 Solevic, that was his family name, simply it was beyond me. How

Page 1220

1 could it be that those Chetniks, those domestic traitors whose leader

2 was Draza Mihajlvic, a pronounced traitor and a criminal, could be

3 rehabilitated in such a manner all of a sudden, and how could his

4 symbols be embraced by Serbs who bore the brunt of the fight of the

5 struggling in World War II. It came as a surprise to me, and a

6 painful one especially because I grew up at the foot of Kozara.

7 Kozara epitomized brotherhood and humanity, the right feet of

8 partisans, the valor of partisans, the tragedy, and in peace to have

9 people from almost all over Yugoslavia came to Kozara to pay tribute

10 to the monument and pay their respects and their homage. It also

11 seemed very stage that Dr. Mladen Stojanovic, a partisan, a

12 physician, a red doctor, and his monument is in front of the town

13 hall in Prijedor and the song we always sang, he was killed by the

14 traitors, Rade Radic and Chetniks, how could those Chetniks be

15 something else now? It simply was not clear to me.

16 Q. Now the elections of 1990 were conducted across the republic of

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina, is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In Prijedor which parties competed for electoral positions?

20 A. In Prijedor the competition was between the SDA and that was

21 practically, if I may call it so, it did not have the word "Muslim"

22 in its name because it was called the Party for Democratic Action,

23 but it did bring together Muslims. Then SDS, Serb Democratic Party,

24 which brought together Serbs. Then HDZ, the Croat Democratic Union,

25 which rallied Croats, SDP which I think stands for Socialist

Page 1221

1 Democratic Party, Reformists and the Party of Private Initiative.

2 Q. Who were the leaders of those parties? First of all, who were among

3 the leaders of the SDA party in Prijedor?

4 A. Dr. Mirza Mujadzic was the leader of SDA. The SDS was for a very

5 short while headed by a retired policeman called Milakovic, then

6 Srdjo Srdic and then he was succeeded by Simo Miskovic. HDZ had

7 Silvije Saric.

8 Q. Were you personally acquainted with any of these leaders?

9 A. Yes. I knew Srdjo Srdic, I have known him for more than 20 years

10 because we act together in the Prijedor theatre. We were friends. I

11 knew Simo Miskovic, a retired policeman. I met Mirza Mujadzic only

12 after he came to head the party for Democratic Action. I did not

13 know him before that. I knew Silvije Saric from secondary school

14 days because we were school fellows together and later in our mature

15 age we both were nature lovers, we used to mountaineer. I knew

16 Milenko Vukic. He was the reformist leader and his deputy was Rizah

17 Beglerbegovic. Vukic was the Director of Elektro-Prijedor and

18 his deputy was the manager of a civil engineering company.

19 Q. What was the outcome of the 1990 election within the opstina?

20 A. All I can say is on the basis of the number of seats in our

21 municipal town hall, I would not know that, but I know the seats in

22 the municipal parliament. Of 90 seats 30 were won by SDA; 28 by SDS;

23 two by HDZ, two by the party of Private Initiative and the rest I

24 think were Reformists, SDP. So that altogether the chief two

25 parties, SDA and SDS, were practically the winners because the

Page 1222

1 difference of two seats would not mean any, if I may call it so,

2 parliamentary victory because of those 90 seats one third were held

3 by a reformist, that is the leftist side.

4 Q. How were the political positions within the opstina then to be

5 distributed?

6 A. I covered the negotiations between SDA and SDS. I should say that

7 they completely disregarded all the others who had won seats in the

8 municipal parliament, and very quickly they agreed about the

9 distribution of chief posts, that is the mayor, the deputy mayor, the

10 head of the local government, the deputy, but then they got stuck

11 when it came to some other posts. They agreed that the mayor of the

12 municipality should come from the Party for Democratic Action and

13 that was Muharem Cehajic. The deputy was to be appointed by SDS and

14 that was Milomir Stakic. Then in the municipal government, in the

15 opstina government, they had agreed that the President should be from

16 SDS and that was Milorad Kovacevic and his deputy from SDA, that was

17 Kulsumovic, I have just remembered, Kulsumovic, and then they said:

18 "Well, it is most important that we agree about these chief posts,

19 and then as we work we shall continue agreeing and we shall solve

20 those problems."

21 Q. As time went on was the Municipal Assembly able to resolve the

22 problems concerning distribution of the remaining positions?

23 A. No, no. No, they could not. They could not agree about two

24 important positions in their view. That was the Director of the

25 Public Auditing Service. This was something like financial control

Page 1223

1 of the payments going through the Public Auditing Service. That was,

2 no company, no firm, could run any business properly without, of

3 course, taking care of one's public obligations. Then the problem

4 with the Commander of the Police cropped up. I do not mean the

5 public security station chief but I mean the security. Those

6 sessions held were really painful, both to us who covered them and

7 for those who listened to them and I should say the population of

8 Prijedor at large.

9 Q. Now as those difficulties and the local assembly were occurring,

10 first of all, were you familiar with what was happening at the

11 republic level in the Republic Assembly?

12 A. Yes. Yes, I was familiar with it. Television cameras, broadcast,

13 press printed press, yes, they all covered it. As of the Serb

14 communism, at the 14th Congress of the League of Communists of

15 Yugoslavia when the Croatian and Slavonia delegates left the Congress

16 everything went downhill. Whether following someone's orders,

17 whether it was good or not, but people I should say, all the people,

18 all the Yugoslavs, all those in Yugoslavia, Bosnia-Herzegovina

19 included, wanted to know how the parliament operated, whether it be

20 at the Federal Republican or municipal level. So that we had the

21 opportunity to follow practically, to all intents and purposes, the

22 intercourse of a parliamentary session at the Republican level, that

23 is practically all their sessions. I should say there was no

24 difference between the disagreements, discrepancies at the Republican

25 level, that is in the Republican Assembly, or in the Municipal

Page 1224

1 Assemblies. Misunderstandings or decisions in the Republican

2 Parliament always found a reflection in the Municipal Assemblies, in

3 Municipal Parliaments.

4 Q. I would like to ask you some questions about the impact of the

5 Croatian war as it was felt within opstina Prijedor. First of all,

6 was there a call for mobilization in response to the war in Croatia?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Who responded to the mobilizations, members of which groups?

9 A. Serbs.

10 Q. Did Muslims and Croats respond to the mobilizations?

11 A. Some did, but I should say the number was insignificant.

12 Q. What reasons or why did Muslims and Croats not respond to the

13 mobilization when it occurred following the war in Croatia?

14 A. Well, it was not difficult to, it is not difficult to explain.

15 Those who watched television or read newspapers, they could see more

16 or less, not more or less, but precisely that it was not that

17 Yugoslavia that was offered us, was not that Yugoslavia, it was

18 something completely else that was merely disguised as Yugoslavia. I

19 often read sentences that Yugoslavia was to be defended in Pakrac, in

20 Lipik, in Croatia, in Slavonia, and many people, Muslims and Croats,

21 pointed out that if one was to defend the borders, the frontiers of

22 Yugoslavia, we shall all go, but why should we go to wage war in

23 Croatia against the Croats since we live with them, since that is

24 part of our state? I believe that the politicians of SDA or HDZ also

25 had a part to play in that non-response to mobilization, but I

Page 1225

1 believe that no matter how authoritative politicians were who tried

2 to persuade the people not to respond to mobilization, that would not

3 have born fruit simply because of what was happening in Croatia

4 because those were not the boundaries of Yugoslavia; Yugoslavia was

5 not an outside threat and it was difficult to go and fight against

6 one people with another, that is decide with one people to fight

7 against another people.

8 Q. What kind of war had the JNA traditionally trained for?

9 A. Almost throughout, I should say everywhere, in all places, in the

10 media, at public meetings, in various places, it was always said that

11 we are preparing for a defence war. I cannot but mention Tito who

12 used to say, and I might say that this is the vestige of that, he

13 used to say that one has to live in a manner as if there is never

14 going to be another war, but that we always have to be ready as if a

15 war might break out tomorrow. In no doctrines, that is there are no

16 doctrines or text or at least I do not know of that, that the JNA was

17 preparing for a war of aggression.

18 Q. Was this war seen by Muslims and Croats as a defensive war or a war

19 of aggression?

20 A. Muslims and Croats saw it as an aggression.

21 Q. Were Muslims and Croats able to see on television the manner in

22 which the war was being conducted?

23 A. Yes, they could.

24 Q. Were they able to hear from neighbours who came back from the war

25 the manner in which it was being conducted?

Page 1226

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did that play a role in the feelings against the war?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What did Muslims and Croats understand what was happening in

5 Croatia?

6 A. Muslims and Croats realised that this was greater Serbia in the

7 making rather they maintained success stain news of the former

8 Yugoslavia, because we could see tanks in Osjek or in Slovenia, how

9 they were moving over passenger cars, and then soldiers of various

10 ethnic origin were interviewed who happened to be there, who simply

11 happened to be doing their regular military service and who said: "I

12 do not know why I am in war. I do not know why I need this." In

13 Vukovar there were young men from Prijedor who happened to be doing

14 their military service and who took part in those attacks on Vukovar;

15 some of them were killed. So it all played a role, and a good role

16 at that. One simply did not want to go to war because he did not

17 see, because one realised the substance and he saw that this was not

18 the reason presented in public that that was the defence of

19 Yugoslavia.

20 Q. I would like to ask you a few questions about the way the war was

21 covered by the local media. Was the coverage of the war by local

22 media, Radio Prijedor, Kozarski Vjesnik, objective or not?

23 A. It was not objective. When I was an editor at Radio Prijedor two

24 journalists, Zivko Ecim and Rade Mutic, without anyone's approval

25 mine or I do not know who else could have done it, used to go to

Page 1227

1 Pakrac or Lipik. An amoured car used to come and fetch them.

2 Sometimes they would turn up in uniforms and they brought reports

3 from Pakrac or Lipik. Mile Mutic, Director of the Kozarski Vjesnik,

4 also went to Pakrac or Lipik, but he went there, returned very

5 quickly and said that he had come because he had been given a new

6 mandate.

7 In the beginning it was only in Kozarski Vjesnik, in the

8 newspaper, mostly stories from the front, usually on the two inside

9 pages, the double page, with the photographs of soldiers about their

10 life on their statements, and then Mile Mutic came with the text

11 about what the Ustase were doing and what they had done to the Serb

12 people in Croatia. There was then an example in which they said they

13 would make a wreath of children's fingers. Zivko Ecim requested,

14 asked me: "Can I take a tape recorder so that we can record it?" I

15 told him: "Well, if you are going to report as reported until now,

16 then there is no need to." He did not answer and left, but a few days

17 later he came with a new tape recorder. I tried to warn them about

18 it, to see whether those two men, Zivko Ecim and Rade Mutic, were

19 working or had they been drafted, had they been mobilized, because if

20 they were working they should turn up at their job every day, and if

21 they were mobilized they should not come to the offices because they

22 came in uniforms, in black hats, a car would come with a soldier

23 driving it, there were soldiers in front of our door. Then the

24 Executive Board meeting was convened of our (indecipherable) company

25 and it was decided that they should go and cover.

Page 1228

1 Now I tried to mitigate, to soften the expressions they used in

2 their reports such as Ustashas, storm troopers. Sometimes I did

3 manage to do that; sometimes I did not. However, there is another

4 thing which concerns the coverage of the reports from Pakrac or

5 Lipik. It was all done in the guise of saying that we were a news

6 desk without sound finances, without funds, and that those soldiers

7 were fighting in Pakrac or Lipik, but also the citizens of our

8 opstina, of our municipality, and that we were simply duty bound to

9 inform their families, their relations, about what was going on in

10 the front in Pakrac or Lipik. Another example of partial coverage

11 was the coverage of the plebiscite and referendum.

12 Q. Let me just finish up quickly on the coverage of the war in

13 Croatia. As time went on did that become more aggressive?

14 A. In the beginning it was not very aggressive. It had started after

15 the takeover of the power in Prijedor.

16 Q. As the coverage of the war became less objective, did you make an

17 effort to remedy that situation?

18 A. I tried whatever I could do because at my news desk the people who

19 worked there belonged almost to only one nationality. In the morning

20 where I would come to work I would look around me, almost all Serbs

21 were around. Four, five of them used to go to the frontline in

22 Pakrac and Lipik. Whatever I would tell them to do they would just

23 lower their heads and continue, not taking notice. The only thing

24 that I could do is not to give them as much time on the radio of

25 their reports, just to shorten their reports to some 10 or 15

Page 1229

1 minutes. Sometimes I would take the text of Rade Mutic so it would

2 not go on the air, and the following day he would come up and

3 threaten me. Zivko Ecim would also threaten me and I had to answer

4 to it. He simply said: "Tell them when they come back from the

5 front", and then I said: "What? They want to kill me?" and he would

6 just say: "Oh I don't know."

7 So the Director, Mile Mutic, who would often come to the meetings

8 of our news desk in uniform, who had a direct telephone line with the

9 Defence, and he two or three months before the takeover brought the

10 people from the Territorial Defence saying that: "There was a danger

11 of somebody coming to burgle our radio", and two or three days it

12 came, it arrived, somebody burgled the place, and the people from the

13 Territorial Defence came and they were armed and they were there

14 sitting for two or three months before the takeover of the radio.

15 Q. How many soldiers?

16 A. Two soldiers were there.

17 Q. Armed?

18 A. Yes, armed.

19 Q. What nationality were they?

20 A. They were Serbs.

21 Q. You mentioned the plebiscite as another reflection of the way in

22 which the news was covered. What was the nature of that plebiscite?

23 A. The plebiscite was organised by the Serbian Democratic Party, the

24 SDS. They wanted to receive the agreement by the Serbian people

25 asking them whether they wanted to remain in Yugoslavia or not. I

Page 1230

1 think the plebiscite was organised in November 1991, but several

2 things remind me of that plebiscite and they are related to this

3 plebiscite. I did not go to the plebiscite, but I was told that

4 those people who went to vote had two cards of two different colours:

5 one for Serbs and the other for those who did not belong to the Serb

6 people. The report in Kozarski Vjesnik was very good, very

7 exhaustive, on two pages. On the first page there was a photograph

8 and a big title: "The People Voted For". During the referendum

9 which, if I remember, was held on 1st and 2nd March 1992 I was due to

10 send a report for Radio Sarajevo about the number of the people who

11 took part in the referendum. I think it was a Saturday and a Sunday.

12 I agreed with a Mr. Zeljko Ruzicic (who died in the meantime) that I

13 would call them around 10.15 on Saturday evening. When I tried to do

14 it from Radio Prijedor the link communications that went through the

15 centre in Banja Luka did not function, did not work. So I had to

16 call by the telephone where the sound was not good. Before that

17 referendum I would participate in Radio Sarajevo programme, a common

18 radio programme on all local radio stations in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

19 but suddenly I felt that Aca Novacovic, who was the presenter of the

20 programme in Radio Sarajevo, said: "We are going to interrupt our

21 programme. We are going to see what is wrong." So I said: "Let's try

22 and see what is going on." So we called Banja Luka and they said

23 that, oh, just by chance they were editing a tape about an imam

24 praying and as it happened it went on the air.

25 Q. Just to clarify, the plebiscite was conducted by the SDS, is that

Page 1231

1 right?

2 A. Yes, that is right.

3 Q. You described it as receiving extensive coverage in the local media

4 and the public media?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. The referendum you referred to was the referendum for independence

7 of Bosnia-Herzegovina which preceded its recognition by the

8 international community; is that right?

9 A. Yes, you are right. One of the conditions that had to be met by

10 Bosnia and Herzegovina in order to be recognised was to organise a

11 referendum so that all the citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina would state

12 whether they were for an independent new state in that territory, a

13 state of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14 Q. There was an overwhelming vote in the favour of the independence of

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina in that referendum?

16 A. As far as I can remember, in the territory of the municipality of

17 Prijedor 57 or 58 per cent of the electorate took part in this

18 referendum, and there was the qualified majority of more than 50 per

19 cent for Bosnia-Herzegovina as an independent state.

20 Q. What kind of coverage did that receive locally?

21 A. In which media or do you mean generally in the media in

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, or at the radio and in the Kozarski Vjesnik?

23 Q. In the local media.

24 A. In the local media, as I said, as far as it goes for Kozarski

25 Vjesnik there was a report from the referendum that was published in

Page 1232

1 the sixth or seventh page. There were 12, maybe 15, lines not more

2 than that, somewhere in the middle page which is a very, very big

3 difference compared to the plebiscite where there were two full

4 pages, the first and the second page, plus a photograph, plus a huge

5 title say, "The People Voted for it. The people said Yes".

6 Q. Up to 1992 were residents of Prijedor able to receive television

7 broadcasts from Sarajevo as well as Belgrade and Zagreb?

8 A. It is a very sensitive issue this about the media and informing.

9 First of all, great problems were created: Why the region of Bosnian

10 and Krajina could not easily follow and see the broadcast by Belgrade

11 TV. I do not know exactly around what date, there was a problem,

12 there was a transmitter taken by force and the transmitter called

13 Lisina. I tried to intervene straightaway. I called Mr. Javed

14 Zabliakovic(?) who used to work for Yutel and I asked him why the

15 people from Prijedor could not watch the Yutel TV programme, and he

16 answered that the army promised that they would find the cause and

17 that they would call him back.

18 When the transmitter was taken on Kozara, the one called Lisina,

19 those who took the transmitter, they could at any moment direct it in

20 such a way as to choose which TV programme they could watch. In

21 many cases we could see a football match broadcasted by TV Sarajevo,

22 and then suddenly it would be interrupted and continued with the

23 Belgrade news on Belgrade TV.

24 So, in the region of the town and the municipality of Prijedor,

25 you could see on the second channel the news broadcast by the

Page 1233

1 Belgrade TV. Before that the Sarajevo TV would on the second channel

2 broadcast the TV, the news from TV Zagreb and TV Belgrade, one after

3 the other. After the transmitter was taken somebody, as I understood

4 it, I understood like that, somebody wanted people to watch only the

5 Belgrade TV news on the second channel. I went to Lisina. I am hiker

6 and I used to go there. I could not understand, as we heard in the

7 media, that a small group of some criminals that could do that when

8 around that transmitter there was a fence and around it trees were

9 cut so that the terrain was clear, there was a clearing. Nobody

10 could have access to it without being seen from the inside. This is

11 my conclusion. Theory the transmitter the JNA units were stationed.

12 Later on we heard that that had been done by a group of people from

13 Prnjavor.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, it is 5.30 and we normally adjourn at 5.30. I

15 wanted to raise, however, a matter with counsel. You probably noticed

16 that the photographers who were coming in at the beginning of every

17 session no longer come in at the beginning of every session. Did you

18 miss them?

19 MR. ORIE: I did not notice it, your Honour!

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I thought it was getting to be a little redundant,

21 at least as far as I was concerned. So I suggested that they

22 disappear for a while. Now, however, that an exhibit has been

23 offered of the Omarska camp, there is a desire on their part to come

24 in and take a photograph of that when we begin our session in the

25 morning, as they typically did and I wanted to advise counsel of that

Page 1234

1 and get any input you may want to give me in that regard. Mr.

2 Tieger or Mr. Niemann?

3 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, we have no difficulty with that.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Orie?

5 MR. ORIE: We have no problems.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. I would suggest really that it be done with the

7 presence of counsel here when they come in. Is that acceptable with

8 you, Mr. Orie? Not that you would be in the photograph!

9 MR. ORIE: My question would be, your Honour, whether it would be needed

10 or not. I do not know whether this model becomes any better with

11 counsel.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Very good. Then they will photograph it at the

13 beginning of the session tomorrow. We will stand adjourned until 10

14 o'clock tomorrow.

15 (5.35 p.m.)

16 (The court adjourned until the following day).

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