Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1722




4 Tuesday, 4th June 1996(10.00 a.m.)

5 (closed session-released by Trial Chamber II on 13 October 1996)

6 WITNESS P, recalled

7 Examined by MR. TIEGER, continued.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We are in closed session still and I will ask our

9 technical people to verify that we are not releasing this testimony.

10 Witness P is here.(redacted), you understand that you are still under oath,

11 do you not?

12 THE WITNESS: (The witness nods in assent).

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.

14 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour.(To the witness):(redacted), during your

15 earlier testimony you told us how extremists of the SDS became the

16 leaders of the party by 1992. I would now like to ask you about some

17 documents. Your Honour, I would like to have this document marked for

18 identification as 146. (Document handed).

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Obviously you are referring to the SDS? When you say

20 "party", it is SDS?

21 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I imagine the exhibit might even refer to that, will

23 it, or are you referring to the SDS?

24 MR. TIEGER: I am referring to the SDS and I think the transcript reflects

25 that.

Page 1723


2 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): (redacted)

3 decision by the Municipal Plebiscite Commission appointing officials

4 for the 1991 plebiscite in the area of Kozarac?

5 A. [In translation]: Yes.

6 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would tender this exhibit for admission and

7 for the record would indicate to the court that this document and the

8 subsequent documents to be tendered in this portion of the examination

9 are among those seized from the home of the accused by German

10 officials when he was arrested in Germany.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to 146?

12 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. 146 will be admitted.

14 MR. TIEGER: For the benefit of the Defence, that is the document marked

15 1.12.17 in the German materials. (To the witness): (redacted), does this

16 decision identify the person who was placed in charge of conducting

17 the Serbian plebiscite in Kozarac?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Kozarac was an area with a minority Serb population?

20 A. Yes, the locality of Kozarac itself.

21 Q. It was, therefore, one of the critical areas which you referred to

22 earlier where particular care was taken by SDS officials to select a

23 loyal, reliable and committed party member to conduct the plebiscite?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. TIEGER: May this document be placed on the elmo, please? Can we place

Page 1724

1 the translation on the elmo? (To the witness): Who was selected as

2 the President of the voting Board in Kozarac?

3 A. Dusko Tadic.

4 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, may I have this document marked as Exhibit 147

5 for identification, please? This is 1.12.59 in the German materials.

6 (Document handed).

7 JUDGE STEPHEN: Before that goes, that is, apparently, an appointment

8 just in respect of one polling booth, is it, not in respect of the

9 overall voting?

10 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): (redacted), the appointment reflected in the

11 decision on appointment of voting officials in Exhibit 146, does that

12 refer to a particular voting area within Kozarac? Let me ask you in a

13 different way. I am sorry. What areas does that refer to or what

14 responsibilities are encompassed by the appointment in that document?

15 A. This can be seen from the title of the decision; for the area of

16 Kozarac and Vidovici.

17 Q. That would encompass responsibility for conducting the plebiscite,

18 getting out the vote and counting the ballots within Kozarac-Vidovici?

19 A. Yes, those are the responsibilities of the voting committees. This

20 appointment of officials was carried out on the basis of the law on

21 the referendum which was in effect in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the

22 competences of the voting committees and its duties were to organise

23 the voting, when the decision of the Municipal Committee for the

24 referendum or the plebiscite determines the time of the voting; after

25 the closing of the polling station to count the ballots; to draw up a

Page 1725

1 report on the results of the voting, and to send it to the Municipal

2 Committee for the referendum or plebiscite, in this case the

3 plebiscite. Therefore, from this decision it can be seen that this

4 Voting Committee should have been at the polling place on a certain

5 date and hour envisaged by this decision; that after the closing of

6 the polling place it was to count the ballots, to draw up a report and

7 send it to the Municipal Committee for the implementation of the

8 plebiscite.

9 JUDGE STEPHEN: I do not know if that answers my question. I see that it

10 is polling place No. 36. Does that mean that it was just the one

11 polling place? Was that the only polling place for the entire

12 district or does the witness perhaps not know?

13 MR. TIEGER: (redacted), I believe you heard the court's question referring to

14 the listing of a polling place No. 36 in Vidovici. Does that indicate

15 that there were at least 36 polling places in that area, or does the

16 area of Kozarac-Vidovici encompass only a single polling place or do

17 you know?

18 A. No, this is polling place No. 36 within the opstina, the opstina of

19 Prijedor, and it is for this particular region, because the municipal

20 or opstina commission for the plebiscite must by its decision

21 determine all the polling places on the territory of the opstina, and

22 next to the number of the polling place it must write the name of the

23 village or settlement or locality whose inhabitants will be voting at

24 that polling place.

25 Q. Thank you,(redacted). May I ask you now to take a look at Exhibit 147 for

Page 1726

1 identification? (redacted) the minutes of the

2 voting for the plebiscite for the polling station in Kozarac?

3 A. Yes, it was a rule in all referendums to draw up forms so as to avoid

4 any member of the Voting Committee leaving out something important

5 envisaged by the law and specified by the law. For this reason these

6 forms were simply filled in by hand indicating the important data

7 relative to that polling place, and that is the case here.

8 MR. TIEGER: I would tender this document for admission.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection?

10 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 147 will be admitted.

12 MR. TIEGER: May that be placed on the elmo, please? May that be raised

13 slightly? May it be raised slightly so we can see the bottom of the

14 page as well? (To the witness):(redacted), in this document Dusko Tadic is

15 again listed as the President of the Voting Committee?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. The Voting Committee reports that 130 Serbs and eleven non-Serbs

18 voted in Kozarac?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Returning a vote of 141 for and O against; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. TIEGER: May I have this document marked as Exhibit 148 for

23 identification, please? 1.12.87. (Document handed).

24 (To the witness): (redacted) a certification for

25 the issuance of a weapon and ammunition by the Banja Luka Territorial

Page 1727

1 Defence staff on May 4th 1992?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. TIEGER: I tender this document for admission, your Honour.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to Exhibit 148?

5 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 148 will be admitted.

7 MR. TIEGER: May that be placed on the screen, please?

8 (To the witness): This exhibit certifies the issuance of an automatic

9 rifle and 300 bullets to Dusko Tadic on May 4th 1992?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. The document refers to orders or ordered tasks; what ordered tasks

12 does the document refer to?

13 A. This document certifies that Dusko Tadic received from the

14 Territorial Defence headquarters an automatic rifle and 300 bullets

15 for carrying out given orders, orders that will be given to him.

16 Q. What orders, what anticipated orders, does such a document refer to?

17 A. This document implies military orders, no others, within the terms of

18 reference of Territorial Defence, and these are applicable to all

19 conscripts, all members of Territorial Defence units.

20 Q. How many rounds of ammunition were normally issued to conscripts or

21 soldiers?

22 A. Conscripts who were mobilized when going to war or into combat are

23 given one combat set which included 150 bullets. Since an automatic

24 rifle has five frames containing 30 bullets each, these are two sets,

25 combat sets.

Page 1728

1 Q. Soldiers normally received one complete combat set of 150 bullets?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Was that true of the soldiers who were about to go off to combat in

4 Croatia, for example?

5 A. Yes.

6 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would like this document marked as Exhibit

7 149 for identification, please. 1.12.66. (Document handed). (To the

8 witness): (redacted)a decision of the

9 Assembly of the Kozarac SDS on August 15th 1992?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would tender 149 for admission.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection? Is there any objection, Mr.

13 Wladimiroff?

14 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 149 will be admitted.

16 MR. TIEGER: May that be placed on the screen, please?

17 (To the witness) (redacted), does this document identify Dusko Tadic as the

18 President of the Kozarac Board of the SDS?

19 A. Yes, point 2 of this decision says that Dusko Tadic has been

20 appointed President.

21 Q. Does the document also indicate that the Kozarac Board will be

22 regulated by the Prijedor SDS?

23 A. Yes, this is stated in Articles 4 and 5 or, to be more precise, in

24 Article 5.

25 MR. TIEGER: If we could show that on the screen, please?

Page 1729

1 (To the witness): As you indicated before, the Prijedor Board of the SDS

2 would have been in turn regulated or controlled by the regional Board

3 of the SDS headed by Radislav Vukic?

4 A. Yes, at that time in '91 and '92.

5 Q. Dr. Vukic, among other things, was the SDS leader who advocated that

6 children of mixed marriages should be made into soap?

7 A. Yes, that was his view, Vukic's.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: May I ask a question, Mr. Tieger, of the witness?

9 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Friday, I believe you testified regarding a main

11 Board of the SDS and, as I recall, the main Board would have been the

12 primary governing authority of the SDS. Having used that term, would

13 the main Board be the Board in Kozarac, in Prijedor, or would you have

14 been referring to the regional Board in the Autonomous Region of

15 Krajina?

16 A. No, within the organisation of the Serbian Democratic Party of

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the term "main Board" implies the highest level of

18 organisation in the Republic, the highest body in the Republic.

19 Q. Above the regional?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So the main Board then would be the highest governing Board of the

22 SDS and the Republika Srpska?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. TIEGER: May I have this document marked as Exhibit 150 for

25 identification, please? 1.12.37. (Document handed). (redacted)

Page 1730

1 (redacted) the minutes of a meeting of Kozarac

2 Local Commune Committee on September 1st 1992?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. TIEGER: I tender 150 for admission, your Honour.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to 150?

6 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 150 will be admitted.

8 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): Do the minutes of this meeting reflect that

9 Dusko Tadic was placed in charge of issues pertaining to military

10 records?

11 A. Yes, he and Zigic Milenko, military records.

12 MR. TIEGER: I would ask that this next document be marked as Exhibit 151

13 for identification, please? 1.12.42. (Document handed). (redacted)

14 (redacted) a decision of the Local Commune of Kozarac

15 on November 9th 1992 appointing a secretary of the Local Commune?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would tender 151 for admission.

18 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 151 will be admitted.

20 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): What is the function of the secretary of a

21 Local Commune?

22 A. The secretary of the Local Commune performs administrative tasks for

23 the self-management bodies of the Local Commune, and that means for

24 the Assembly of the Local Commune and the Executive Board or Council

25 of the Local Commune. That is one function of the secretary. Another

Page 1731

1 function of the Secretary or another group of tasks has to do with

2 national defence affairs, that is, handling the plan of defence of the

3 Local Commune.

4 Q. Is it the most important position in the Local Commune?

5 A. Yes, the most important.

6 Q. Who was appointed the Secretary of the Local Commune in Kozarac on

7 November 9th 1992?

8 A. Tadic, Dusko. That is Article 2.

9 MR. TIEGER: May this next document be marked as Exhibit 152 for

10 identification, please? 1.12.61. (Document handed).

11 (To the witness): (redacted) a decision of the

12 Kozarac Local Commune Council on October 16th 1992?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would tender 152 for admission.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

16 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 152 will be admitted.

18 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): Does this document make Dusko Tadic a

19 signatory on the social accountancy service for Kozarac?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Does this entitle Dusko Tadic to sign cheques to withdraw cash from

22 the Kozarac account?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Does it authorise him to authorise payment of bills for Kozarac?

25 A. Yes, bills cannot be paid, of course, without the signature of

Page 1732

1 authorised persons, except that here one thing is missing, probably

2 because those who did this were rather ignorant, and that is whether

3 one was authorised to handle resources on an individual basis or

4 whether on a collective basis. Basically, it does not change

5 anything, except that if they were collectively responsible for the

6 resources, then every cheque had to be signed by at least two

7 individuals, and if one person was made responsible for this, then at

8 least one.

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 Q. Does this document give Dusko Tadic either alone or in combination

17 with Borislav Strbac, the other person listed on the document, power

18 over the finances of Kozarac?

19 A. Right.

20 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, may this document be marked as Exhibit 153 for

21 identification, please? 1.12.16. (Document handed).

22 (To the witness): (redacted) an authorisation

23 issued by the Prijedor Municipal Assembly on 2nd through 4th November

24 1992 and given on March 3rd 1993?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1733

1 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would tender 153 for admission.

2 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 153 will be admitted.

4 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): This document authorises Dusko Tadic to

5 restore civilian authority on the entire territory of the Kozarac

6 Local Commune?

7 A. Yes, this authorisation concerns the establishment, the organisation

8 of the system and establishment of the civilian authority on the

9 territory of the Kozarac Local Commune as a whole.

10 Q. Does it confirm powers that Dusko Tadic already held pursuant to the

11 other documents we have referred to?

12 A. Yes. Yes, it does.

13 Q. Does this document formally confirm Dusko Tadic's status as the most

14 important person in the Local Commune of Kozarac?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Towards the bottom of the page there is a note referring to "the

17 above authorisation which authorises members of the Republika Srpska

18 army who continue to be members of the army and receive pay but

19 perform the duties listed above". What does this notation refer to?

20 A. Yes, this note means that individuals charged with a particular duty

21 or responsibility, according to this, remain active duty individuals,

22 that is, soldiers or officers, and that they receive monthly pay, have

23 monthly salary, and they are remunerated for performing their duties

24 as mentioned above, that is, in the upper part of the document.

25 At the same time this note provides for individual charged in

Page 1734

1 this manner to seek help from the command, and the command is asked to

2 provide all the necessary conditions for operation, for work and

3 co-operation.

4 MR. TIEGER: May this document be marked as Exhibit 154 for

5 identification, please? (Document handed) 1.12.4.

6 JUDGE VOHRAH: Mr. Tieger, may I know how large the commune of Kozarac is?

7 How big is it?

8 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I believe that information is contained in the

9 census which was admitted into evidence.

10 JUDGE VOHRAH: Can you remind me of the number?

11 MR. TIEGER: I would not -- at this point I would prefer to actually take

12 a look at the census itself before guessing at the number. I

13 certainly have a rough idea, but I would not want to contradict the

14 information contained there.

15 JUDGE VOHRAH: Thank you.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you remember what exhibit that may have been? We

17 will just test your memory. We will locate it later. We can go on

18 with the testimony. We will see.

19 MR. TIEGER: No, I would recommend the test of Miss Sutherland's memory.

20 If you would like to look at it, Miss Sutherland advises me it is 80

21 and 81.

22 (To the witness): (redacted)this next (redacted),

23 Exhibit 154,(redacted) a decision on the assignment of the work obligations

24 reached by the Ministry of Defence on April 5th 1993?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1735

1 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour I would tender 154 for admission.

2 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 154 will be admitted.

4 MR. TIEGER (To the witness):(redacted), did this decision of April 15th 1993

5 change Dusko Tadic's job or his status in that job?

6 A. Microphone, please, the witness: Under this decision on the

7 assignment under labour directives, this becomes his wartime

8 assignment of Dusko Tadic, so his combat task. To reach such a

9 decision it was necessary for the Assembly of the opstina, that is,

10 throughout the territory, to set forth in its defence plans posts to

11 be filled, to be manned, in this manner. Then it was also necessary

12 that the relevant body -- in this case a Local Commune -- submits an

13 application on this form which was called 2RO for the assignment

14 establishing the categorisation of jobs, that is, the importance, the

15 relevance, and then the decision on the assignment of labour

16 obligations was adopted.

17 This was in line with the wartime organisation of the

18 municipality, that is, the wartime assignments and under the

19 Secretariat of National Defence of the Municipality was to carry out

20 such assignments, rather, to assign persons to various duties.

21 Q. So, this reflected an act by the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor?

22 A. This was the decision of the Assembly of the municipality of Prijedor

23 on the Prijedor defence plan, that is, municipal defence plan,

24 specifying the duties of each Local Commune. The defence plan has

25 several components, that is, there are several documents which make an

Page 1736

1 integral part of defence plan.

2 One of such parts is the plan of economic, of business

3 operations, of state and public services. It was usually referred to

4 as a plan of activities in wartime conditions. There was also a

5 mobilization plan as part of it, the combat readiness plan, a plan of

6 civilian defence, plans for emergency situations, and all these

7 documents made part of the defence plan. On the basis of this defence

8 plan of the municipality of Prijedor and the defence plan of the

9 Kozarac Local Commune in this case, such a decision is then taken on

10 the assignment to labour obligations.

11 Q. I had asked you earlier whether or not this document changed Dusko

12 Tadic's job or just his status, and your answer was not received

13 because of a microphone problem.

14 A. No, no, only the status -- status under wartime conditions, that is.

15 Q. That status changed from previously being under the operations

16 command to now having his wartime assignment under the Prijedor

17 municipality?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was this position, Secretary of the Local Commune, considered an

20 important post under the work obligations assignment?

21 A. Yes, it defines it as the key post. The form itself speaks about

22 categories of jobs. The most important are managerial, executive

23 jobs, followed by key jobs, then those jobs performing the priority

24 assignment, and this is a key post, a key job. So that it ranks the

25 second in importance.

Page 1737

1 Q. Would there have been any position in the Local Commune that was

2 higher?

3 A. No, no, the higher position, the managerial post, was at the

4 municipal level. In this case it would be the Secretary of the

5 Secretariat for Administration.

6 Q. So pursuant to this document in the event of mobilization Dusko Tadic

7 continues as Secretary of the Commune rather than, for example, go to

8 the front?

9 A. Yes. Yes, I only have to say that in such cases a Secretary of the

10 Local Commune was always the person who was in charge of the defence

11 plan, regardless of whether he had wartime assignment or as laid down

12 here or not. If not, then a different person was assigned to take

13 over the responsibility for the defence plan, when the general

14 mobilization is ordered and in that case that Secretary goes to his

15 combat unit. This is the most favourable variation because the

16 Secretary assigned to this job does not give over the defence plan to

17 anyone, and handles it under all circumstances, in peace time and in a

18 state of immediate danger of war and in wartime.

19 MR. TIEGER: May this document be marked for identification as Exhibit

20 155, please? (Document handed). 1.12.38.

21 (To the witness): (redacted) a decision by the

22 Local Commune Srpski Kozarac appointing a committee for a referendum

23 to be conducted on 15th and 16th May 1993?

24 A. Yes. Yes, it is a decision on the appointment of a committee for the

25 referendum. This decision, however, is the decision of the Local

Page 1738

1 Commune itself and it had to be confirmed by the Municipal Committee

2 for referendum. (redacted)

3 (redacted). If a Local Commune or the responsible

4 Local Commune body nominates its ballot committee, then a Municipal

5 Committee for the referendum never changed that.

6 MR. TIEGER: I would tender this document for admission. 155.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to 155?

8 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 155 will be admitted.

10 MR. TIEGER ( To the witness): (redacted), earlier you testified about the

11 Serbian plebiscite in November 1991 and the Bosnian government

12 referendum in February and March 1992. What referendum does this

13 document refer to in 1993?

14 A. In April 1993 a peace plan for Bosnia-Herzegovina was proposed. The

15 preliminary signing of this peace plan took place in Athens and

16 Radovan Karadzic on behalf of the Republika Srpska signed this

17 preliminary peace plan on a preliminary basis, but he conditioned his

18 definitive signature on the decision of the Assembly of the Republika

19 Srpska, and that Assembly was held in Pale towards the end of April

20 1993.

21 The session was attended by Slobodan Milosevic as Serbia's

22 President, Momir Bulotovic as Montenegro's President, Dobrica Cosic as

23 the President of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and Prime Minister

24 or the Foreign Minister of Greece, I do not know exactly whether it

25 was the Prime Minister. I think that was him. The Assembly session

Page 1739

1 lasted all day and all night, and the Assembly of the Republika Srpska

2 did not want to accept, rather, confirm the peace plan. It decided to

3 organise a vote by referendum whether to accept the peace plan or not.

4 This referendum concerns that issue.

5 Q. Was this referendum considered important by Serbian officials?

6 A. Yes, of course, the leadership, the leadership of the Republika

7 Srpska, because they did not want to accept the plan. Pressure was

8 brought to bear on them to accept the plan. The referendum served as

9 a very important excuse because it expressed the will of the people.

10 Q. Was the conducting of the referendum, therefore, only entrusted to

11 reliable and ideologically committed members of the SDS?

12 A. Yes, the conduct of the referendum itself, yes. Some insignificant

13 positions, of course, could be held by others, but in commissions, all

14 commissions at Election Committees, only important members held them.

15 Q. The document indicates that Dusko Tadic was appointed President of

16 the Committee for the Kozarac polling station?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. TIEGER: May this document be marked as Exhibit 156 for

19 identification? (Document handed). 1.12.36.

20 (To the witness): (redacted) an extract from the

21 election report concerning the Kozarac SDS on May 20th 1993?

22 A. Yes, this is a fragment from the minutes and it refers to some former

23 initiative to go out into the field and check the work of the members

24 of the Kozarac Local Commune members, and then some members were

25 reelected, that is the word "reizbor", probably those who were not

Page 1740

1 active, and this, by this decision the local Board is complemented

2 from areas which probably were not included before that with members

3 from the SDS Local Commune. These are the areas listed, Jaruga,

4 Kozarusa, Podgradge, Hrnci and the centre of Kozarac.

5 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would tender 156 for admission, please.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to 156?

7 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 156 will be admitted.

9 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): Does Exhibit 156 indicate that the zone of

10 influence of the Kozarac Local Commune has been extended to include

11 other portions of the region?

12 A. Yes, the territory under the Kozarac SDS local Board was expanded.

13 Q. Does it indicate that Dusko Tadic continued as President of the

14 Kozarac SDS after the zone of influence was extended?

15 A. Yes.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger -- I will ask the witness. I do not

17 understand from this exhibit how the zone of influence was expanded.

18 Is it because additional members from other localities were added?

19 A. Yes, yes, in two ways, very probably in the first decision on the

20 elections of the local SDS Committee, these areas, these hamlets, were

21 probably not included or part of that Local Commune, that is, this

22 area where the SDS Local Commune operated, and it is these hamlets

23 which are listed here. So the local SDS Board in Kozarac operated in

24 a broader area and had more members.


Page 1741

1 MR. TIEGER: (redacted), disregarding for a moment the political positions

2 reflected in the documents which you have just reviewed, could Dusko

3 Tadic have fled from Kozarac to Banja Luka before the fighting began

4 in Kozarac on May 24th and then only returned three weeks later to

5 join the reserve traffic police?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Why not?

8 A. The reserve police force was very specific. The choice of those who

9 would be members of the reserve police force was done on the basis of

10 special criteria, and subjected to special checks. Their assignment

11 to the reserve police force was not the same as the assignment of

12 soldiers in reserve army units. The Ministry of the Interior or,

13 before that, the Secretariat of the Interior always set forth those

14 special criteria for the selection and assignment of members of the

15 reserve police force. Before this war no member of the reserve police

16 force could become that without being a member of the League of

17 Communists.

18 Another criteria which applied before the war were one's

19 familiarity with martial skills or, at least, active involvement in

20 some act, sports activities, but sports, active sports, was a sine qua

21 non or some special skills, such as, for instance, radio amateurs,

22 that is, radio telegraphists who were never assigned to be reserve

23 policemen on the street on the beat, patrol men; and the MUP of the

24 Republika Srpska also applies special criteria and special testing

25 methods for the members in the reserve police force, very similar to

Page 1742

1 the ones I have mentioned.

2 Q. Was it possible to be issued an automatic rifle and two complete sets

3 of ammunition, run away from the fighting and then return to become a

4 member of the reserve traffic police?

5 A. No, except that there is yet another problem when it comes to this

6 rifle and another characteristic thing. Dusko Tadic was issued his

7 rifle in Banja Luka from the municipal staff of the Banja Luka TO, and

8 he was not a military conscript in the territory of the Banja Luka

9 municipality. He could belong only on the staff of the Prijedor TO,

10 yet he was issued it in Banja Luka, and he is not the only one.

11 Others were also issued rifles in Banja Luka, those who came from the

12 territories of other opstinas, but there had to be some grounds for

13 that. They were SDS members, as a rule.

14 Q. In view of the ----

15 JUDGE STEPHEN: The witness began that bit of testimony by saying "there

16 is another problem". I do not understand what the problem is as

17 unfolding in his subsequent evidence.

18 MR. TIEGER: OK. Let me try to untangle that, if I may.

19 (To the witness): The question I had asked which prompted your response

20 was whether or not it was possible to be issued a rifle and

21 ammunition, then flee from the fighting and return later to join the

22 reserve police.

23 A. No, and that is why I explained that his rifle was issued in Banja

24 Luka. It is not a problem; it is just a noteworthy point or a typical

25 situation.

Page 1743

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: May I follow that up? We do not want to beat a dead

2 horse, I suppose, as we would say in the United States, but the

3 question is whether or not it was possible for Mr. Tadic to flee --

4 the word was used "flee" -- to Banja Luka and then return back to

5 Kozarac and then perform his duties as a reserve police officer. In

6 your response what you said was that reserve police officers were

7 selected for certain reasons, and that is because they had experience

8 in martial arts or because they were involved in sports. That, to me,

9 is not responsive. That does not explain to me why it would not be

10 possible for Mr. Tadic to leave and go to Banja Luka and then return

11 back and still be a member of the reserve police.

12 A. No, the question was not put in that way. The question was whether

13 Dusko Tadic could flee Kozarac to go to Banja Luka and after three

14 weeks return back and be appointed to the reserve police force. My

15 answer was "no" to that question. He would not be appointed in the

16 police force if that had happened. That is why I explained how

17 members of the reserve police force were selected.

18 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, your Honour, is that clear?

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you know whether Mr. Tadic was a member of the

20 reserve police force before that time?

21 A. No.

22 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if I may: (To the witness): Sir, was ----

23 A. I do not know. I do not know.

24 Q. Was your description of the strict criteria for joining the reserve

25 police from the point of emphasising that it was an organisation which

Page 1744

1 would pay attention to the status of anyone who sought to join it and,

2 therefore, pay attention to whether or not anyone had fled from the

3 fighting during a time of mobilization?

4 A. (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted). Those criteria were the same for those special

7 skills in the army and in the reserve police force. These were

8 applied by the Municipal Service, the Secretariat of National Defence

9 when taking a decision on wartime assignments, That is, the question

10 of military capabilities that were on record.

11 Q. (redacted), you have indicated before that by May 1992 the SDS was led by

12 extremist members such as Dr. Vukic who sought ethnic cleansing to

13 achieve a greater Serbia. At that time and after that time, could

14 anyone be selected to positions of authority within the SDS unless

15 that person shared the view of the leadership?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Could Dusko Tadic have been selected as President of the Kozarac SDS

18 unless he shared that view of the leadership?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Could Dusko Tadic have been appointed to the position of Secretary of

21 the Local Commune if he had fled from the area before the attack began

22 and did not return until approximately three weeks later?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Could he have been selected as the President of the SDS, the person

25 in charge of military records, the Secretary of the Local Commune, the

Page 1745

1 person in charge of restoring civilian authority, if he had not

2 participated in the cleansing of the Kozarac area?

3 A. Probably not. This is confirmed by the decision of the Crisis Staff

4 of the region of Krajina that we examined on Friday about the kind of

5 qualities required for anyone to be elected to any post, and in

6 several decisions the term "loyal Serbs" was used and the decision on

7 June 22nd clearly specified what that meant. All this in connection

8 with Dusko Tadic occurred after that decision and it was impossible to

9 have been done.

10 Q. Do the documents which you have reviewed before the court, therefore,

11 reflect Dusko Tadic's ideological commitment to the ethnic cleansing

12 goals of the SDS and his active participation in the accomplishment of

13 those goals?

14 A. I could not exactly say that explicitly in that way with respect to

15 ethnic cleansing only, but that he had to be completely loyal to the

16 overall policy of the SDS which, among other things, included that.

17 That is certain.

18 Q. I want to ask you some questions about ethnic cleansing then, if I

19 may? You testified about the implementation of conditions which had

20 been advocated by Cubrilovic and others, including the loss of

21 employment, loss of protection from physical protection and so on. I

22 believe you also indicated that the final stages of ethnic cleansing

23 advocated by Cubrilovic and his followers and by Moljevic and Nedic

24 were physical removal or liquidation of non-Serbs.

25 A. Yes.

Page 1746

1 Q. Were those final steps also implemented in Bosnia in 1992 including

2 in the Banja Luka area and in Prijedor?

3 A. Yes, they were. (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 Q. When did you first hear of ethnic cleansing taking place?

20 A. This the first time outside of Bosnia-Herzegovina was when Vukovar

21 fell, and in Bosnia-Herzegovina I heard of it for the first time at

22 the beginning of April '92, end of March/beginning of April.

23 Q. Where was it taking place?

24 A. In Bijeljina.

25 Q. Was it to the ethnic cleansing and expulsion of Muslims and Croats?

Page 1747

1 A. Bijeljina had quite a large number of Muslims, far more than there

2 were Croats, and there were expulsions and killings.

3 Q. (redacted)

4 A. (redacted).

5 Q. Did (redacted) Serb officials acknowledge that ethnic

6 cleansing was taking place in Prijedor?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. (redacted)

9 A. (redacted).

10 Q. Did the military participate in these cleansings?

11 A. Yes, military units participated.

12 Q. Did the police participate in these cleansings?

13 A. Yes, the reserve police from the region of the municipality of Banja

14 Luka, among others.

15 Q. Participated in the cleansings in Prijedor?

16 A. In Kozarac.

17 Q. Did Serbian paramilitary units participate in the cleansings in

18 Prijedor?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did members of the Crisis Staff visit Prijedor during the process of

21 the cleansing? Did they visit the camps, for example?

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, may I have this next document marked as Exhibit

24 157? (Document handed). (To the witness): (redacted)

25 (redacted) an issue of Kozarski Vjesnik on July 17th referring

Page 1748

1 to a meeting between Banja Luka and Prijedor authorities?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. TIEGER: We tender this document for admission.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

5 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I do not know yet which document it is.

6 MR. TIEGER: The date is July 17th. I am not sure how it is independently

7 numbered in your material.

8 MR. WLADIMIROFF: We have some objections to this one because the date is

9 not confirmed by the newspaper itself. It is handwritten on it, so we

10 dispute the date. The document itself is not objected.


12 MR. TIEGER: I think the witness can clarify the timing of the document.

13 In any event, we can subsequently clarify the date I think to the

14 Defence satisfaction, so I am happy to have the document admitted

15 under the conditions described.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Why do you not ask the witness questions in an

17 attempt to verify the date? If that cannot be done, then we will move

18 to the next level and see if it can be either admitted subject to your

19 confirming the date to the satisfaction of the Defence by another

20 means.

21 MR. TIEGER (To the witness):(redacted), did you learn of the visit of Crisis

22 Staff officials from Banja Luka to Prijedor through various means?

23 A. I knew of visits, not of this particular visit, but of visits made by

24 the most responsible members of the Crisis Staff of SDS and of the

25 police on several occasions in the course of July. There were several

Page 1749

1 visits before the announced arrival of International Red Cross teams

2 and news reporters of Sky News and, I think, ITN when preparations

3 were carried out for their visits. (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 I cannot with certainty say whether this is July 17th or maybe

7 the 20th, but certainly it is correct that visits were made in July.

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted).

10 Q. In any event, this paper reflects one of the visits that you have

11 referred to? I would tender the document again.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff, any objection?

13 MR. WLADIMIROFF: We have no objection to the tendering of the document,

14 your Honour, but we hear the witness say about the dates. We will

15 deal with that later.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, very good. Exhibit 157 will be admitted.

17 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): In the last paragraph of the first page the

18 -- actually, that may not be the same on your translation -- the

19 document indicates that the Crisis Staff leaders visited the areas

20 where combat operations had taken place and visited the collections at

21 the so-called collection centres?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q.(redacted), by what means of transport were Muslims and Croats physically

24 removed from the municipality of Prijedor?

25 A. I know that they were transported by buses and at the very beginning

Page 1750

1 or, rather, at the end of May by rail, (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted). This train travelled round for several days to reach Doboj in

13 the direction of Zenica and after, I think, five or six days those

14 people were allowed to cross the borderline between the army of the

15 Republic of Srpska and the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina somewhere

16 around Gracanica.

17 Q. For those Muslims and Croats who survived the initial attacks or the

18 camps, how safe were these transports, whether on train or by bus?

19 A. They were very risky. This was one transport by rail. The others

20 were carried out along the line Prijedor, Banja Luka, Travnik via

21 Skender Vakuf, the region between Skender Vakuf and Turbe. In the

22 vicinity of the ski runs at Vlasic was particularly unsafe. In the

23 summer, I think it was in August, in a large gorge with the River Una

24 flowing, and it is known as Koricanske Stijene, about 250 camp inmates

25 were -- camp inmates from Omarska were executed.

Page 1751

1 Q. In addition to large scale massacre such as this, were the transports

2 continually unsafe on a smaller basis for individuals?

3 A. Yes, every transport in the direction of Travnik in the summer of '92

4 and also in the early autumn in September and October was unsafe for

5 males. Very often individuals would be taken out of the bus and shot,

6 regardless of the lists.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.

8 (11.30 a.m.)

9 (Adjourned for a short time)

10 (11.55 a.m.)

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, you may continue.

12 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. (To the witness): (redacted), did the

13 media, Serbian media, under the control of the Crisis Staff by that

14 time attempt to justify the cleansings?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In what sorts of ways or how?

17 A. The justification of those war operations was part of the overall

18 propaganda campaign. It began when Muslims and Croats, that is, these

19 population groups, were called thieves, rogues, extremists, and

20 usually they laid stress on their aspiration for a new genocide over

21 the Serb people.

22 MR. TIEGER: May I have this document marked as Exhibit 158 for

23 identification? (Document marked). (To the witness): (redacted)

24 (redacted) document (redacted) an article from Kozarski Vjesnik dated

25 July 3rd 1992 discussing who are the members of extremist groups?

Page 1752

1 A. (redacted)

2 (redacted), it does talk about it, the composition of ethnic

3 groups firing because of hatred, it is all aimed at justifying it and

4 proclamation of the presidency of the Serb Republic of

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina to the army of the Serb Republic. The composition,

6 that is, the contents, is identical with the articles in the paper,

7 Glas, in Banja Luka.

8 Q. It characterises those who were the subject of cleansing actions as

9 criminals and gangsters and so on?

10 A. Yes. Yes, this is it. It even says here that there are local

11 criminals, smaller and medium sized, well-known to the public from

12 beforehand and so on.

13 MR. TIEGER: We tender 158 for admission, your Honour.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection?

15 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 158 will be admitted.

17 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1753

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 Q. Were some places in Republika Srpska free from cleansing in order to

23 use them as examples for outside media or outside observers?

24 A. Yes, there was such a case of which I know. It is the village of

25 Janja near Bijeljina. At that time it was left as it was; nobody

Page 1754

1 touched it until several TV programmes were made about it and a story

2 broadcast repeatedly by the Serb television Pale. Simply, all TV

3 teams and delegations that came were taken there to see that

4 coexistence was possible and that nobody was attacking anyone.

5 Q. Was Janja also eventually cleansed?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Early in your testimony you mentioned a continued payment by Belgrade

8 to officers in the army of Republika Srpska during 1992. Did Serbia,

9 that is, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and Republika Srpska, move

10 to a single currency in 1993?

11 A. Yes, many army officers of the Republika Srpska were paid directly

12 from the budget of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and they served

13 in Serbia and provisionally in the army of the Republika Srpska. In

14 the spring of '93, a single currency was introduced in the territory

15 of the Republic Serb Krajina which is a territory in Croatia in the

16 territory of the Republika Srpska in Bosnia-Herzegovina and the

17 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

18 The former Yugoslavia had a model of feeding the budget when

19 means were short from the so-called primary issue, that is, minting

20 new money. On several occasions because of the high inflation rate

21 denominations would take place. However, in 1993 and '94, the

22 Yugoslav dinar marked the highest inflation rate ever. It was even

23 higher than the inflation of the German mark in 1920s. Evidently,

24 this was the way in which the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia

25 was financed.

Page 1755

1 Q. Did the -----

2 JUDGE STEPHEN: Could I ask a question before it goes off the screen? The

3 witness said that many army officers of Republika Srpska served in

4 Serbia, being paid by the Serbian government. Does that mean

5 exclusively in Serbia?

6 A. No. They were the officers of the Yugoslav Army who were regularly

7 posted and stationed in Serbia, but temporarily were in the army of

8 the Republika Srpska. So, for instance, I am posted to a garrison in

9 Belgrade, say, as an officer of the Yugoslav Army, and I am in Banja

10 Luka or Bijeljina or Brcko in a unit of the army of the Republika

11 Srpska, and I get my pay and all the rest from Belgrade, that is, from

12 my garrison.

13 MR. TIEGER: Did the move towards a single currency enable the budget of

14 the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to more easily finance the needs of

15 Republika Srpska?

16 A. Yes. Yes, it was much easier to finance it in this manner because

17 the changes of the dinar in Republika Srpska and the Republic Serb

18 Krajina and the conversion to the dinar of the Federal Republic of

19 Yugoslavia were highly questionable. It required a lot of work and

20 had no significant effect.

21 Q. You mentioned earlier that by May 1992 Muslims and Croats were not

22 able to leave the area of Banja Luka or the Autonomous Region. If

23 ethnic cleansing was the goal, why did not Serbian authorities simply

24 let these non-Serbs go?

25 A. There were two reasons why uncontrolled departure of non-Serbs from

Page 1756

1 the Autonomous Region of Krajina; one was the takeover of the

2 property. It needed to be done in a way which could be legally

3 justified, that is, statements about the transfer of property,

4 contracts about the exchange etc. Another important reason why mass

5 departure was not allowed was the fear of a foreign intervention,

6 intervention by the NATO combat troops or the United States of

7 America. That fear was very strong and very evident, and one needed

8 to have hostages for such circumstances. That was the second reason.

9 Now, within it there was yet another one, namely, as Radoslav

10 Brdjanin, President of the Crisis Staff, used to say, one needed to

11 carry out the humane transfer of the population. The population needed

12 to be exchanged, from the territory of the Republika Srpska of the

13 Muslims and Croats in exchange for Serbs from territories under the

14 control at the time of the Croatian Defence Council and the army of

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

16 Q. Was that reminiscent of the mass transfer of populations that Nedic

17 had written about years before?

18 A. Yes, that was that, that was it. Radoslav Brdjanin and Vukic,

19 Radislav Vukic, did not even try to hide this idea about the need to

20 transfer the population. By the decision of the Crisis Staff at the

21 time in Banja Luka a transfer agency was established as a state

22 agency.

23 Q. What were conditions like for Muslims and Croats in the Banja Luka

24 area after the summer of 1992?

25 A. Living conditions were very hard and there were daily acts of terror

Page 1757

1 applying to anyone who would be found in the street without relevant

2 documents, passes. There were daily arrests on a rather large scale.

3 Those people were usually kept in custody overnight and after

4 spending the night there they would be released. They had no jobs.

5 At night houses were attacked, explosives were planted or armoured

6 groups were placed there; and the only humanitarian aid that reached

7 Banja Luka at the time constantly without interruption was through

8 Caritas. One part of the humanitarian aid, Caritas, had to pass on to

9 Kolo Srpskih Sestara and the Red Cross of the Republika Srpska.

10 Q. Were Muslims and Croats compelled to perform forced labour?

11 A. Yes. By decisions of the Crisis Staff, labour units were set up.

12 Q. What happened to Muslim and Croat religious and cultural structures

13 or institutions?

14 A. In the territory of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, almost all

15 religious objects were demolished. I think that none remained

16 unscathed. In Banja Luka, all mosques were demolished and of the

17 Catholic churches, only two survived.

18 Q. You mentioned earlier in your testimony that SDA extremism was

19 insignificant in Bosnia and Herzegovina at the time of the elections

20 and in 1991. Was this also true in May 1992?

21 A. During the elections in 1990, yes, and in May 1992 it was

22 insignificant as against Serb and Croatian.

23 Q. When you spoke earlier in your testimony about paramilitary units,

24 you mentioned that the patriotic league was present in Sarajevo. Was

25 the patriotic league an aggressive force intended to drive out other

Page 1758

1 national or ethnic groups?

2 A. No. The patriotic league was formed as a defence force in the event

3 of a conflict with the Yugoslav People's Army in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

4 Somewhere at the time of the intensified fighting in Croatia, I

5 learned about the Patriotic League at the end of 1991, that it

6 existed. In the winter of '92, that is '91, '92, I knew of others as

7 well, other paramilitary formations. However, their aim was not

8 aggressive nor was it ethnic cleansing at the time.

9 Q. In any event, were you aware of the presence of the Patriotic League

10 or the green berets or any other Muslim military or paramilitary force

11 in the Banja Luka area, including Prijedor, in May 1992?

12 A. I do not know that units of the patriotic league were present. I

13 know they were present in Bosanski Brod, but the green berets as one

14 of the paramilitary formations were only in Sarajevo and only in the

15 municipality Stari Grad. In the Banja Luka region in Prijedor, I do

16 not know that they existed; I think they did not. I know only of

17 Kljuc or, rather, the village of Velagici.

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 Q. You also stated earlier in your testimony that after the plebiscite

22 the groups in Bosnia and Herzegovina began to arm themselves in

23 anticipation of war. Was there any sign of significant arming of

24 Muslim and Croat communities in the Banja Luka area, including

25 Prijedor?

Page 1759

1 A. No.

2 Q. Were Serbs and Muslims equally armed in the area of the Autonomous

3 Region, including Prijedor, in May 1992?

4 A. No. No.

5 Q. Is it fair to say that Muslims and Croats had significantly fewer

6 arms and much poorer quality?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 A. (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 Q. Was the arming of Serb civilians eventually open enough so that you

16 were actually able to see it (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 A. Yes, in '92. In '92 it was quite obvious. In '91 it was still

19 concealed and in '92 it was out in the open; there was open arming.

20 Q. You also indicated earlier in your testimony that the Chetnik

21 paramilitary units of the Serb Radical Party had 3,000 to 4,000 troops

22 in the area of Banja Luka. Were there other troops, Chetnik troops,

23 of the Serb Radical Party in other parts of the Autonomous Region?

24 A. Yes, there were such units throughout the Autonomous Region of

25 Krajina and in the Knin Krajina. There were quite a number of them.

Page 1760

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted) judging by various data that I heard, I estimate that

3 there were roughly that many. (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 Q. Based on the data available to you, how many would you estimate were

6 in the Autonomous Region generally?

7 A. The Autonomous Region, the whole Autonomous Region, I think up to

8 15,000, roughly, members of Chetnik units, with their characteristic

9 Chetnik insignia.

10 Q. (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 A. (redacted)

13 Q. (redacted)

14 A. (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: May I just ask a question regarding the presence of

18 Chetnik units? At what point in time are you referring to this

19 presence about which you just testified?

20 A. The summer '92.


22 MR. TIEGER: Now, if I may, I would like to attempt to respond to the

23 question by Judge Stephens regarding the Krajinas. If I may in that

24 regard have this document marked as Exhibit 159 for identification and

25 present that to the Defence as well, please? (Document handed). (To

Page 1761

1 the witness): (redacted), is this a map which very roughly indicates

2 relevant portions of the Krajina regions in Croatia and Bosnia?

3 A. Yes.

4 MR. TIEGER: Can that be placed on the elmo, please?

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there an objection to 159?

6 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. 159 will be admitted.

8 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): First of all,(redacted), does the term "Krajina"

9 mean frontier?

10 A. Yes, in the historical sense in this region it means the frontier

11 regions.

12 Q. Those were the buffer zones between the Austrian and Ottoman Empires?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. OK. Over time is it fair to say that the term or terms "Krajina",

15 depending on the context, were used in different ways?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Broadly speaking, there is a Krajina in Croatia and a Krajina in

18 Bosnia and Herzegovina; is that correct?

19 A. Yes, in this period after 1990 or, rather, '91.

20 Q. With respect to the Krajina in Croatia, did it consist of two

21 physically disconnected areas which were united in Republika Srpska

22 Krajina?

23 A. What is coloured in green here are two parts of the Republic of

24 Srspka Krajina which was the name of the state organisation of Serbs

25 in Croatia. It consisted of two separate parts or districts. In the

Page 1762

1 administrative and territorial sense, the only link between these two

2 parts was across the territory of the Republika Srpska and Serbia.

3 Krajina, Autonomous Region of Krajina, as the only region of the

4 Republika Srspka that had this name is the territory coloured in blue.

5 Until the abolition of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, its official

6 name was the Autonomous Region of Krajina. So that at the same time

7 there were two very similar expressions, the Republika Srspka Krajina

8 in Croatia, and the Autonomous Region of Krajina in

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina, as a component part of the Republika Srspka.

10 MR. TIEGER: I tender that document and I have no further questions.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It is admitted already, 159 is admitted. This area,

12 though, that you are referring to, the Republic of -- well, the

13 Krajina region that is in green but in Croatia, you refer to that as

14 Republika Srspka but, if I recall your testimony correctly Friday or

15 maybe Thursday, I do not know, that was the area that was at one time

16 referred to as the military frontier. That was the buffer, as Mr.

17 Tieger asked you, from the Ottoman Empire, is that not so?

18 A. This part marked in green is called the Republika Srspka Krajina and

19 the part in Bosnia-Herzegovina is called the Republika Srspka; very

20 similar, and it can be -- and even people in Bosnia-Herzegovina and

21 Croatia would substitute the two. They did not know which referred to

22 what. But along the frontier region of Bosnia-Herzegovina, along this

23 border, there were Krajinas in the historical sense on both sides of

24 the border, but the ethnic composition of the population varied.

25 In some Krajinas the Croats were predominant, such as in this

Page 1763

1 part, the so-called Imotska Krajina. This part has a predominant Serb

2 population and is known geographically as the Knin Krajina. That is

3 this region. Then comes Kordun and Banija and this is western

4 Slovenia. These were also frontier regions or Krajinas. The Bosnian

5 Krajina is this region, and the Autonomous Region of Krajina included

6 a larger area than the Bosnian Krajina, both in the historic and in

7 the geographical sense. This region is known as two Krajinas, one is

8 called the Bihac Krajina and the other, the Cazin or so-called Ljuta

9 or Bitac Krajina. These two Krajinas have a predominantly Muslim

10 population.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think what I have done is to complicate matters

12 because "Krajina" means frontier and there have been a number of

13 frontiers, but at least on Exhibit 159 the two areas in green are as

14 you identified them, and that is the Krajina the Republika Srspka and

15 the blue would be the autonomous Krajina. I guess my real question was

16 when you refer to the green Krajinas, the Republika Srspka, was your a

17 testimony a few days ago, I thought that that was the region that was

18 recovered -- I do not know whether that is the correct word -- or at

19 least obtained by the Croats shortly before the Dayton Agreement. Is

20 that not so? So is it appropriate to refer to it as the Republika

21 Srpske now? That was really where I was trying to go and you can

22 correct me if I am wrong?

23 A. Yes, the Croatian army or, rather, the army of the Republic of

24 Croatia captured it just before the signing of the Dayton Agreement

25 with its annexes. I think it was May 1st, beginning of May, the

Page 1764

1 region of western Slavonia. This is this part here and in August last

2 year, in '95, they captured Banija, Kordun and Knin Krajina.

3 Q. So my only point really was when we are looking at this at some point

4 we should understand, I suppose, that that area in green stretching

5 from the word "Croatia" down through Knin is no longer part of the

6 Republika Srspka, is that not so?

7 A. No, the Republic of Serb Krajina, not Republic of Srpske.

8 Q. Yes, yes, OK.

9 A. Republika Srspka is in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10 Q. But at some point in time was not this area here, that is, the

11 Krajina in Croatia part of the Republika Srspka until shortly before

12 the signing of the Dayton Agreement? No?

13 A. No.

14 Q. That is what I am mistaking. I am sorry. Then we will leave it as

15 it is.

16 A. It is because of the similarity in names.

17 JUDGE STEPHEN: While we are looking at this map, I wanted to tell you

18 that amongst the many maps exhibited through Dr. Gow, I find them,

19 most of them, incomprehensible because they are not in colour. I do

20 not particularly want to comprehend them, but if you want me to, I

21 need them in colour; but if you are happy to leave them as they are,

22 well and good.

23 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any cross-examination of this witness, Mr.

25 Wladimiroff?

Page 1765

1 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes, your Honour.

2 Cross-examined by MR. WLADIMIROFF

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1766













13 page 1766 redacted













Page 1767













13 page 1767 redacted













Page 1768

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 Q. Your Honour, may I call for Exhibit 145 and have it shown to the

13 witness, please? (Document handed). Can I ask you to look at the

14 decision by the Secretary of the Secretariat for National Defence of

15 the Autonomous Region of Krajina, which decision is contained in No. 1

16 of the document before you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can we put the translation on the elmo, please, paragraph 1, please.

19 Thank you. Now, (redacted), does paragraph 1 of this decision say that

20 general mobilization is ordered?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And is this order dated May 4th 1992?

23 A. You mean whether it was in force on 4th May?

24 Q. If you look at the bottom of this decision ----

25 A. Yes.

Page 1769

1 Q. --- does it say that this order is issued on May 4th 1992?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. It is the second page of the English translation. Does it mean that

4 the mobilization was effective from that date?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now from your testimony of last Friday it appears that this

7 mobilization affected all men from 18 to 55 years of age, does it not?

8 A. Almost from 18 to 65 it referred to the conscripts.

9 Q. So every man that was still in the conscript had to respond to this

10 mobilization, did they not?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So am I right when I say that from May 4th 1992 all conscripts

13 between 18 and 55 were mobilized in the Bosanski Krajina Autonomous

14 Region?

15 A. Not all of the conscripts. All those who were assigned to JNA and TO

16 units, namely conscripts relieved of military service were not duty

17 bound to respond to the mobilization either in TO units or JNA units.

18 Q. (redacted)

19 A. (redacted)

20 Q. (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 A. (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 Q. Was there any order issued by the Krizni Stab to anyone who was

25 already a part of a military unit to report to its own unit?

Page 1770

1 A. Yes.

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1771













13 page 1771 redacted













Page 1772













13 page 1772 redacted













Page 1773

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 Q. Last week, (redacted), you told us about the prohibition of freedom of

7 movement and you told us that Serbs, Muslims and Croats could not move

8 freely without permission unless you were a member of a military unit.

9 Now it seems from your evidence today that other reasons might also

10 qualify for obtaining permission, are there not?

11 A. For travelling outside Banja Luka, yes, but for movement around Banja

12 Luka, no. I was referring to Banja Luka.

13 Q. (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 A. (redacted).

17 Q. (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 A. (redacted).

20 Q. (redacted)

21 A. (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1774

1 (redacted).

2 Q. (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 A. (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted).

10 Q. (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 A. Yes, one could get it for other purposes.

13 Q. Are you aware of any written limitations of such purposes?

14 A. Yes, there was an ordinance about the procedure of the issue of such

15 permissions.

16 Q. Do you know when this ordinance was issued?

17 A. I would not know exactly.

18 Q. Did you ever read that ordinance that you can tell us about?

19 A. Yes, (redacted)

20 (redacted).

21 Q. (redacted),

22 A. I believe so.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff, before you move to another area

24 ----

25 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I did not notice the time.

Page 1775

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: When we are having fun, as they say, it goes

2 quickly! We will stand in recess for lunch until 2.30.

3 (1.05 p.m.)

4 (The court adjourned for lunch)


6 (2.30 p.m.) PRIVATE

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff, you may continue.

8 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Thank you, your Honour. (To the witness): (redacted), we

9 have heard evidence in this court that Serb families left their

10 villages before there was an attack, and in those villages only Muslim

11 families were left there; is that right?

12 A. No, I did not say that.

13 Q. I am not referring to your evidence, but to evidence we have heard

14 from other witnesses.

15 A. What I said in this connection about departures of Serb families from

16 Muslim localities, I think I did not say anything about that, but what

17 I know about that is that from some localities, I know specifically

18 for Jajce that many Serb families left Jajce. For Kozarac, I do not

19 know exactly, nor for Prijedor, but in the case of Jajce, many Serb

20 families left just before the start of war operations.

21 Q. When did those war operations start in Jajce?

22 A. In Jajce they started in June '92.

23 Q. (redacted)

24 (redacted)?

25 A. (redacted).

Page 1776

1 Q. So they were travelling from the area (redacted) in the

2 month of June, were they not?

3 A. Yes, in one direction only as refugees.

4 Q. I take it they had not written permissions with them, did they not?

5 A. They had their ID cards. (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 Q. (redacted)

17 A. (redacted)

18 Q. (redacted), I

19 was putting to you that Serb families left those villages, (redacted)

20 (redacted) Serb families living in those villages

21 left those villages before there was an attack, and they travelled,

22 (redacted) just having their IDs, nothing else; is

23 that right?

24 A. Yes, the police or civilian or military at checkpoints would let pass

25 refugees in groups, and even individually. If they could show with

Page 1777

1 their IDs that they were Serb, and if it could be seen from the ID

2 where they were coming from, it was possible.

3 Q. The areas that they left were subjected to attack that had destroyed

4 many properties, for instance, Hambarine and Kozarac. I take it they

5 were not able to return to those areas because houses were destroyed?

6 A. You are thinking of Serb refugees?

7 Q. Serb refugees.

8 A. It was difficult to return, but the Crisis Staff insisted that all

9 return because in Banja Luka there were many refugees from western

10 Slavonia, from the Sava River valley, Posavina, from Jajce, central

11 Bosnia, so that Banja Luka in May or, rather, the whole summer of '92

12 was overcrowded with refugees. There was a shortage of food.

13 Fortunately, it was summer time. However, just before the corridor was

14 broken through, and I think that was in June, I do not know exactly

15 when, I think it was June '92, and when the road to Belgrade was

16 opened, famine threatened Banja Luka. There was no bread any more.

17 Q. So your testimony then is that during the month of May and June there

18 were a lot of refugees in Banja Luka, not returning home but just

19 staying there and, therefore, there was a shortage in food, was there

20 not?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So the orders on return were not obeyed? People simply stayed

23 because they had no possibility to go back?

24 A. No, the orders -- there were two orders of the Crisis Staff applying

25 to two groups of refugees. One applied to men and they had to return

Page 1778

1 because they were not allowed freedom of movement in the city at all.

2 The other applied to members of their families, women and children.

3 The Red Cross decided who would return or, rather, to whom they would

4 give food. Men could not receive anything.

5 Q. (redacted)

6 (redacted),

7 (redacted)

8 A. (redacted)?

9 Q. (redacted).

10 A. (redacted)

11 MR. WLADIMIROFF: May I have Exhibit 146, please? (Document handed to the

12 witness). (To the witness): The date on that exhibit is 8th

13 November 1991, is it not?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Have you seen that exhibit, this document, in November 1991?

16 A. Yes. I did see it -- not this one, but one like it.

17 Q. But did you see this document in November 1991?

18 A. This one or one exactly like it?

19 Q. This one?

20 A. Not this one.

21 Q. When did you see it for the first time?

22 A. Roughly about a year ago.

23 Q. Who showed it to you?

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1779

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 MR. WLADIMIROFF (To the witness): Did a representative of the Prosecution

24 show you this document for the first time?

25 A. Yes, this document, yes.

Page 1780

1 Q. Right. We have solved it.


3 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Thank you. (To the witness): Now let us proceed then

4 to Exhibit 147, if I may. (Document 147 handed to the witness) There

5 is no specific date on the bottom, but on the top of it it says that

6 it is related to the plebiscite of November 9th 1991. Do you see it?

7 A. There is a date here. It says "November 9th '91".

8 Q. In the top of that form, is it not?

9 A. And that the voting place was opened at 7 o'clock, that the

10 Commission was present.

11 Q. When did you see this form for the first time?

12 A. This form, I saw this form many times.

13 Q. This form, this specific form, this Exhibit 147, when did you see it

14 for the first time?

15 A. I must explain something at this point. These forms are standard and

16 it was possible to see them and find them. They are nothing special.

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted). In this form, this is form No. 3, as is indicated,

19 and it is attached to documents of the Election Committee, the date of

20 the opening of the voting station is indicated, the time of closing

21 and it says it was closed at 7 p.m.. This particular evidence filled

22 in and signed in this way I saw together with the previous document

23 for the first time a year ago.

24 Q. I take it it was shown to you by a representative of the Prosecution,

25 was it not?

Page 1781

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You have testified that you have seen these kinds of forms many times

3 before?

4 A. Before this one was shown to me.

5 Q. Right. Can you tell the court what then is form No. 1?

6 A. It is a certificate appointing the members of the Election Committee.

7 Q. May I ask you then to look at Exhibit 146 again? (Exhibit 146 handed

8 to the witness) What is this?

9 A. It is form No. 2.

10 Q. So, form No. 2 deals with the appointing of members of the Election

11 Committee, and not form No. 1?

12 A. Yes, No. 2 should be the ballot paper.

13 Q. So you have never seen before that form No. 2 is an appointment form

14 and not a ballot paper?

15 A. No, I have seen it only I did not pay any attention that it was No. 2

16 but, according to the law on referendum, that is how it should have

17 been. In that case, No. 1 would be the determination of the polling

18 station or the Commission. This is correct, yes, OK, this is form No.

19 2.

20 Q. Let us return back to 147, Exhibit 147, that is form No. 3. Before

21 you saw this specific form, did you have any knowledge about the

22 number of voters in Kozarac?

23 A. No. No, I did not have any specific knowledge generally about the

24 number of voters in the Republika Srpska or Bosnia-Herzegovina; it was

25 still Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time.

Page 1782

1 Q. (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 A. (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted).

6 Q. (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 A. No, I cannot give an estimate, if you are thinking of the absolute

9 figure, the exact figure.

10 Q. Are you able to give an estimate of the number of people who actually

11 voted?

12 A. (redacted)

13 Q. (redacted)

14 A. No, I cannot.

15 Q. So you have no knowledge about those who voted (redacted), nor did

16 you have any knowledge about those who voted in Kozarac; (redacted)

17 A. No.

18 Q. It is not true or is that true?

19 A. No, I do not know.

20 Q. Right. If you look into this form No. 3, Exhibit 147, could you tell

21 the court how many people actually voted in Kozarac?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How many people do you think voted in Kozarac?

24 A. It is stated here 141 voted.

25 Q. So you simply read to the court what you can read and then you tell

Page 1783

1 them what you read, did you not?

2 A. No, I did not tell the court how many people had voted in Kozarac.

3 Q. No, I just asked you and you simply read what you could read?

4 A. Now?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. This moment, 141.

7 Q. Right. Let us proceed then to Exhibit 148, if I can have it, please?

8 (Exhibit 148 was handed to the witness). When did you see this

9 exhibit for the first time?

10 A. Also about a year ago.

11 Q. By the same source?

12 A. Yes, this receipt.

13 Q. If you look at this certificate, is it true then that the holder of

14 such a certificate is able to travel?

15 A. Not alone.

16 Q. What do you mean by "not alone"?

17 A. That means he can only travel with his unit or, rather, with other

18 appropriate documents for travel. This is not a travel permit. It is

19 just a permit allowing someone to prove that he is carrying weapons

20 with permission. One could never travel with this certificate.

21 Q. So, in your estimation, it is a document that certificates that

22 someone is within the military, is it not? Is that not what you are

23 saying?

24 A. No, that is not what I meant in answer to your question. This was

25 given to persons who were given arms in Banja Luka and were not from

Page 1784

1 Banja Luka or did not have assignments, war assignments, in units

2 situated on the territory of the municipality of Banja Luka. This is

3 not the only certificate. (redacted)

4 (redacted). But this was not a travel

5 document. This is just permission for carrying army weapons for which

6 one cannot receive permission if one is outside one's unit on leave of

7 absence, or if you are travelling anywhere. One must have a permit

8 for travel, and this is a permit for bearing arms.

9 Q. Where do you read then that this document was given to persons who

10 were not from Banja Luka?

11 A. One does not see it here anywhere, that Tadic Dusko is not in Banja

12 Luka.

13 Q. You see, by reading it, what you are saying here, by reading it you

14 suppose that he is not from Banja Luka?

15 A. No.

16 Q. How then can you tell that the holder of this certificate is not from

17 Banja Luka if you read the document?

18 A. There were several different certificates or licences for weapons.

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1785

1 Q. But then again,(redacted), how can you tell us that this certificate was

2 used for someone who was not living in Banja Luka? What is the basis

3 of your statement on this? We cannot read it here.

4 A. Because I know it.

5 Q. You know it. It also says here rank, soldier, does it not?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Does that mean, in your estimation, that Dusko Tadic was at that

8 moment a soldier?

9 A. No. No, it does not mean that in this certificate. Here the rank,

10 an army rank, that somebody has in general, it is usually in one's

11 army card irrespectively of the position and so on, what kind of duty

12 one performs in a unit. This only means that Dusko Tadic did not have

13 a rank. This is a particular taken over from the army card.

14 Q. This certificate was issued by Lieutenant Colonel Sajic; is that

15 correct?

16 A. He signed it, well, to practically speaking, he issued it, yes.

17 Q. So if he only signed it, who issued this certificate, then? Was

18 there a practice in this?

19 A. The practice was as follows. This certificate was obtained when the

20 weapons were issued from the depots of the Territorial Defence

21 headquarters in Banja Luka. Then, on the records of the books of the

22 depot, it was stated whom the rifle had been issued to. The person

23 receiving the rifle had to sign the receipt as a proof that he had the

24 weapon, the rifle, and then would be issued the certificate in order

25 to prove that he was in possession of a weapon on the basis of

Page 1786

1 existing regulations.

2 Q. So Dusko Tadic had to travel on May 4th to Banja Luka to get his

3 weapon and this certificate?

4 A. To Banja Luka?

5 Q. To Banja Luka.

6 A. Yes, to get both the rifle and the certificate.

7 Q. (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 A. (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 Q. Did you ever hear of a practice that the person who got the weapon

15 wrote the details, his personal details, by himself on the

16 certificate?

17 A. Yes, of course I have heard of that.

18 Q. Let us proceed then to Exhibit 149. Could we have that exhibit,

19 please. (Exhibit 149 was handed to the witness). This exhibit is

20 dated August 15th 1992. I take it you have not seen this specific

21 document on that date?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You saw it about a year ago because it was shown to you by a

24 representative of the Prosecution, was it not?

25 A. I do not remember that I saw this document then perhaps.

Page 1787

1 Q. You saw it for the first time today in court?

2 A. No, I did not see it for the first time today, but I do not remember

3 when it was, whether it was a year ago or two or three days ago. I am

4 not sure that I saw it a year ago.

5 Q. Have you any idea how many voters for SDS lived in Kozarac in the

6 month of August 1992?

7 A. I do not know exactly, but very few, I presume, very few members of

8 the SDS, not voters.

9 Q. If you read to decision No. 1 you see that 14 names are filled out

10 and not a name with No. 15, so I take it that you will agree that

11 perhaps they did not have enough voters to fill out No. 15?

12 A. Very likely, it is not impossible.

13 Q. If we now proceed to Exhibit 150? (Exhibit 150 was handed to the

14 witness). Have you ever seen such a document before, not this

15 document but such a document?

16 A. No.

17 Q. So I take it you have not seen this document either before, unless it

18 was shown to you by the Prosecution?

19 A. No.

20 Q. So the only thing you can tell us about the document is what you can

21 read, can you not?

22 A. Of course.

23 Q. If we proceed then to document 151, please? (Exhibit No. 151 was

24 handed to the witness). This document is dated 9th November 1992.

25 Have you seen this document in November 1992?

Page 1788

1 A. No.

2 Q. Have you ever seen such a document before?

3 A. A similar one about the appointment of the Secretary of the Local

4 Commune, you mean?

5 Q. Which Local Commune was that?

6 A. (redacted)

7 (redacted).

8 Q. If we then move to Exhibit 152, please? (Exhibit 152 was handed to

9 the witness). This document is dated or at least there is a reference

10 to October 16th 1992. I take it you have not seen this document in

11 October 1992, have you not?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Have you ever seen such a document before?

14 A. Of course, (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted).

17 Q. But have you seen a document issued by any Local Commune Council like

18 this document? Have you seen such a document ever before?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. (redacted)

21 A. (redacted).

22 Q. Thank you. Let us go back to Exhibit 146. (Exhibit No. 146 was

23 handed to the witness). We see here a decision on the appointment of

24 the voting officials for the plebiscite in the area of Kozarac

25 Vidovici?

Page 1789

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is there a difference between Kozarac and Vidovici?

3 A. Well, yes, that is not the same territory. Kozarac is a larger

4 village.

5 Q. So Vidovici is a part of Kozarac, is it not?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Have you heard about the villages of Podgrada?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. A part of Kozarac too?

10 A. I think so, but I am not sure.

11 Q. And Balte?

12 A. No, I do not know.

13 Q. And Babici?

14 A. Yes, I have heard about and Babici can also be found elsewhere, not

15 only here.

16 Q. Have you ever heard about a village called Babici being a part of

17 Kozarac?

18 A. No.

19 Q. I take it you have heard of Trnopolje, have you not?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is Trnopolje a part of Kozarac?

22 A. No.

23 Q. It is not?

24 A. No. It is on the other side of the railway tracks. I do not know

25 exactly what the Local Commune of Kozarac comprised, apart from the

Page 1790

1 village itself, but Trnopolje is on the other side of the railway

2 tracks. There was a fish pond there and Trnopolje, and then

3 Hambarine.

4 Q. You do not know exactly what the Local Commune of Kozarac is

5 comprised, how then can you tell the court that polling place No. 36

6 is the polling place of Kozarac?

7 A. Because it says so here.

8 Q. You simply read it and tell the court what you read, do you not?

9 A. Yes, of course.

10 Q. Do you see on this a document under (3) for the deputy of member No.

11 3 the name Mirjana Tadic?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Is "Mirjana" sometimes also used for the name "Mira"?

14 A. I do not know.

15 Q. You do not know?

16 A. I do not know. I do not know who that is.

17 Q. Now let us proceed then to Exhibit 153, please. (Exhibit 153 was

18 handed to the witness). This exhibit seems to be issued on March 2nd

19 1993?

20 A. Yes. March 1, 1st March '93.

21 Q. Then we have a confusion here because my English translation says

22 March 2nd. May we have the Serb one on the elmo, please?

23 A. No. 1.

24 Q. What does it say after "Datum"?

25 A. I think that this figure is 1. I do not know.

Page 1791

1 Q. Anyhow, apparently, you know only what you read there and you read 1,

2 do you not?

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is this March 1 on the Serbian exhibit?

4 MR. WLADIMIROFF: If we can have it back on the elmo, please?

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I just saw "1" and then "23".

6 MR. WLADIMIROFF: That is a reference, your Honour. Underneath it says in

7 Cyrillic "Datym". Then I read 2.03.1993, "godina", which means

8 "year".

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So that would be March what?

10 MR. WLADIMIROFF: The 2nd, I would say, but nevertheless.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Then the English, though, go back to the English,

12 what does that say?

13 MR. WLADIMIROFF: March 2nd.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Was it supposed to say the 2nd? Was it supposed to

15 be the same date? I am not following.

16 MR. WLADIMIROFF: As a matter of fact, I only want to check that this

17 witness simply reads what we all can read here.

18 THE WITNESS: If I may ask your Lordships, I do not want to be insulted

19 like this.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: This is really not insulting. The Prosecution is

21 permitted to object to any question that they consider to be

22 argumentative or badgering the witness. It is cross-examination and

23 in this Tribunal we do have cross-examination -- some systems do not

24 -- so that sometimes what may appear to be insulting is really just

25 kind of cross-examination. So the Prosecution is there to object if

Page 1792

1 they think that the question is improper, then I will hear from both

2 parties and then I will rule.

3 MR. TIEGER: In fairness to the witness, your Honour, I was tempted to

4 rise when Mr. Wladimiroff made what I considered a gratuitous remark,

5 a characterisation of the witness's testimony apparently in the guise

6 of a question. The court is aware that the Prosecution has great

7 respect for Mr. Wladimiroff. I considered it a slip, but I do

8 understand the witness's reaction. Perhaps it was my fault in not

9 calling attention to it earlier. In any event, I do not think it is

10 worth pursuing, but I was aware of the comment the witness referred

11 to.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. No objection was made and so then it is

13 important for you to answer the question. I am sure Mr. Wladimiroff

14 did not mean it as an insult. His point was just that you have read

15 what is on the exhibit and that is basically what you have provided.

16 THE WITNESS: Yes, I think that it is, that it is offensive, because Mr.

17 Wladimiroff says that I know only what I read. This document, such as

18 it is, I knew long before I saw this one applying to Dusko Tadic, and

19 then it is very offensive when Mr. Wladimiroff says that in this case

20 I know only what I read here because of No. 1 or No. 2. If it is this

21 document which is in question, when I saw it I was very surprised. I

22 did not know why Mr. Tadic needed it. All the authorisations that are

23 mentioned here he already had.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: In any case, (redacted), you are to respond to Mr.

25 Wladimiroff's questions. If his question is that you only know this

Page 1793

1 because you have read it, then your response could be, "No, that is

2 not true, I have other information" and you may respond to it. But

3 the question itself I do not consider to be offensive. So let us

4 proceed along. This is a trial and this is cross-examination and it

5 is proceeding fairly, I think.

6 MR. WLADIMIROFF: May I proceed then, your Honour, to Exhibit 154, please?

7 (Exhibit 154 was handed to the witness) (To the witness): (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 A. (redacted).

10 Q. (redacted)

11 A. (redacted)

12 Q. (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1794

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 Q. So both documents, the previous one 155 and 156, you have seen for

10 the first time when it was produced to you by the Prosecution, was it

11 not?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 A. (redacted).

16 Q. Hearing your testimony last week and today, you told us about SDS

17 meetings, SDS actions and SDS party discipline by telling us what is

18 in SDS documents and in its statutes and how it all functions

19 according to its rule, is it not?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So what actually do you know about the organisation of the SDS at

22 Kozarac?

23 A. In Kozarac, I know nothing about SDS function there, nor whether they

24 had local organisation or, if they did not, how they functioned until

25 1992, and after that I do not know. In my testimony, I spoke about

Page 1795

1 the functioning of the SDS of Bosnia-Herzegovina (redacted)

2 (redacted), according to my knowledge.

3 Q. Right. I have no further questions, thank you.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you, Mr. Wladimiroff. Mr. Tieger, redirect?

5 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour.

6 Re-examined by MR. TIEGER

7 Q. (redacted).

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted).

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)?

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1796

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 Q. Mr. Wladimiroff also asked you if you were familiar with the

7 functioning of the SDS in Kozarac. You indicated that you had no

8 specific familiarity with the workings of the group in Kozarac. Was

9 the SDS in Bosnia-Herzegovina and the SDS in Republika Srpska an

10 hierarchial organisation, that is, with one entity related to the

11 other from the Local Commune level all the way up to the Republic

12 level?

13 A. Yes, and the manner in which the Serb Democratic Party in

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina was organised was also identical in all

15 municipalities, an identical model of organisation regardless of the

16 size or the numbers.

17 Q. Mr. Wladimiroff also asked you about refugees coming to Banja Luka

18 from other municipalities, both families and individuals of military

19 age. Were individuals of military age who fled from their own

20 opstinas to other municipalities such as Banja Luka ordered by the

21 Crisis Staff to return to their own municipalities to engage in combat

22 operations there?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Even if the families of such eligible males remained in a foreign

25 municipality as refugees, the age eligible male was ordered to return;

Page 1797

1 is that right?

2 A. Those who remained in their places of residence, this did not apply

3 to them or members of their families. They were there, but all those

4 who came not only to Banja Luka, but the decision of the Crisis Staff

5 applied to other areas as well outside Bosnia-Herzegovina, to the

6 areas of western Slavonia and to Banija as well as to municipalities

7 outside the Autonomous Region of Krajina, such as Bosanski Brod,

8 Derventa, Odzak, I think Bosanski Samac and Modrica as well. The

9 decision applied to all of these, that they had to return to their

10 villages, their places and to fight, men capable of military service.

11 Q. If a man capable of military service did not return to fight during

12 the combat operations but instead remained in the foreign municipality

13 for a matter of weeks, could he then return to his own municipality

14 and be rewarded with a position in the reserve police?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Under those circumstances, could he then return to his own

17 municipality and be rewarded with a position as President of the SDS

18 in the Local Commune?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Under those circumstances, could he then return to his municipality

21 and be rewarded with a position of Secretary of his Local Commune?

22 A. No. For avoiding mobilization he could not receive any of those

23 things.

24 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, nothing further.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff, do you have additional questions?

Page 1798

1 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes, please, your Honour.

2 Further cross-examined by MR. WLADIMIROFF

3 Q. (redacted), what happened to those men who had no place to go, for

4 example, when their homes were destroyed in the villages where they

5 came from?

6 A. They did not return to their homes, they returned to the military

7 units. That was mobilization.

8 Q. What if they were not belonging to any military unit and did not

9 respond to mobilization?

10 A. Then they could not return because there were checks, controls.

11 First, they could not travel and, second, wherever they would get to,

12 the authorities, either military or civilian -- they were in most

13 cases military -- would be duty bound to arrest him and hand him over

14 to the military unit he belongs to. That was the decision of the

15 Crisis Staff, and it was very diligently observed by the military

16 police (redacted).

17 Q. So you simply stayed where you were unless you were arrested?

18 A. You stayed home and you never went out because it was not possible to

19 move about (redacted).

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 Q. (redacted), you said that they had to return to fight. What do you mean

24 by "fight", in their own municipality or elsewhere, if we refer to the

25 period of time May/June 1992?

Page 1799

1 A. Yes, by decision of Crisis Staff they had to go.

2 Q. To go where? To their own village if there was no fight there? What

3 do you mean "they had to fight", "they had to return to fight", to

4 fight where?

5 A. They had to register with the appropriate units of Territorial

6 Defence, and the whole territory of the opstina was covered by various

7 Territorial Defence units.

8 Q. Once again, (redacted), you just told in answer to the Prosecutor that

9 they had to return to fight. If we limit ourselves to the period of

10 time May/June 1992, someone coming from Kozarac which has already been

11 taken, what was there to fight then?

12 A. Where can they return from Kozarac? We are talking about returning

13 from Banja Luka to Kozarac.

14 Q. To fight?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. After Kozarac has been taken, where were the fights then?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Where were the fights then in the area of Kozarac? Can you tell us

19 where there were fights then?

20 A. There was fighting in the region of Kozarac. I do not know when they

21 ended in Kozarac exactly, but in this testimony we are talking about

22 three weeks in answering the questions. The time period is from

23 roughly 22nd/23rd May and three weeks after that. We are not talking

24 about an undefined period, nor an undefined space. In those three

25 weeks fighting, there was fighting in Kozarac, there were military

Page 1800

1 units, Territorial Defence units of Prijedor, the reserve police units

2 and the police of Prijedor and Banja Luka, and paramilitary formations

3 in the region. If you are asking me for the periods after those three

4 weeks, will you please indicate exactly what time you are referring to

5 and I will answer?

6 Q. Do you know when Kozarac was taken, (redacted)

7 A. No, I do not know exactly when it was taken. I know when the

8 fighting started.

9 Q. When did the fight start in Kozarac then, (redacted)

10 A. On May 25th, Tito's birthday. (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted). This region was proclaimed a war zone (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted).

18 Q. (redacted)

19 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, excuse me, with all due respect, I think we have

20 passed the point of rerecross-examination and are outside the scope of

21 anything that could arguably have been opened up by the few questions

22 I asked on redirect.

23 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I am simply pursuing what is the fight here.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The question that Mr. Wladimiroff is asking and the

25 series of questions deal with the question that you asked again on

Page 1801

1 redirect, and that is, could Mr. Tadic have left Prijedor and gone to

2 Banja Luka and then returned considering the positions that he held?

3 The answer was, he needed to return to fight. Now what Mr.

4 Wladimiroff is attempting to do is to get the witness to explain to

5 what is (redacted) understanding of what fighting was going on, what was

6 (redacted) obligation to return, what was happening there that required

7 (redacted) to return. Is that your question, Mr. Wladimiroff?


9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE (To the witness): See if you can answer that, (redacted).

10 What was happening in Kozarac as well as you know that required Mr.

11 Tadic to return, if he had left Prijedor and had gone to Banja Luka?

12 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour -----

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What is the problem? I know you are not going to

14 object to my question.

15 MR. TIEGER: No, I am sorry, but I just could not help but note, I thought

16 that was exactly the point of the previous answer but I do not want

17 -----

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It is, but it is cross-examination and he is

19 testing. He is not arguing, he is not being disrespectful, but he is

20 testing his ability to respond. I will overrule your objection. You

21 may proceed Mr. Wladimiroff.

22 MR. WLADIMIROFF: (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 A. (redacted)

25 Q. (redacted)

Page 1802

1 A. (redacted).

2 Q. Do you know when the fighting in and around Kozarac ended?

3 A. No, I do not know exactly (redacted)

4 (redacted).

5 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Thanks. No further questions.


7 MR. TIEGER: No, your Honour, nothing further.

8 JUDGE STEPHEN: Witness, I wonder if you would look at Exhibit 150 that I

9 am showing you, and if you look at the Yugoslav original, the third

10 line, I think, below the heading, what does it read?

11 A. Third line?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. Four?

14 Q. It is a very short line.

15 A. "Saseljemje".

16 Q. What does it read?

17 A. It says "Saseljemje". It is a word that is not in line with spirit

18 of our language; it is a distorted word. "Saseljemje" in this case

19 would mean change of place of residence and focusing in one place.

20 Q. It has been translated as "resettlement", that is reasonably

21 accurate, is it not?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Then follows the name of two villages, I think, in that line, does it

24 not?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1803

1 Q. And nothing else?

2 A. Yes, Vidovici and Kozarac.

3 Q. And it says nothing else?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Thank you. The point of that is that the English translation is

6 inaccurate; it has a lot more in than appears.

7THE PRESIDING JUDGE: (redacted)you testified earlier in response to a question

8 that I asked about how Mr. Tadic could have fled from Kozarac to Banja

9 Luka on May 24th and then return three weeks later and be permitted to

10 join the reserve police. I asked you to explain that -- do you recall

11 that -- and you did?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. At that point, as I recall your testimony, at least Mr. Tieger's

14 question was, apart from political considerations, how could he have

15 returned; you then discussed this. The question that I have has to do

16 with, I believe, your testimony that Mr. Tadic could not have been

17 appointed to the Local Commune if he had fled and returned after the

18 war in Prijedor and if he had not participated in the cleansing.

19 Again I am looking at my notes when I took when you were giving your

20 testimony.

21 What is the basis for that opinion and testimony particularly

22 if, again according to my notes, Mr. Tadic was appointed on April

23 15th, if that is what Exhibit 154 shows? I do not have it before me.

24 In other words, he was appointed April 15th 1992. What your

25 testimony is that he could not have fled and returned because of that

Page 1804

1 position. Tell me, what is the basis of that opinion? Mr. Tieger, I

2 see you without even looking up rising.

3 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. I just did not want something built

4 into the question that the court did not intend. I am not familiar

5 with a document that indicates an appointment on April 15th 1992.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Let me see. I am looking at ---

7 MR. TIEGER: Maybe August 15th.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: -- Exhibit 154 at the top. I am looking at the

9 Serbian version but, even with that, I think the date is April 15th,

10 but it is 1993, is that not so?

11 MR. TIEGER: Correct.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, I think that answers it. Keeping in mind that

13 it is April 15th 1993, not April 15th 1992, which does make a big

14 difference, what is the basis of your opinion that Mr. Tadic could not

15 have fled from Prijedor to Banja Luka and then returned and be

16 appointed to that position of secretary, is it, to the Local Commune?

17 A. He could not do that because the election of the Secretary of the

18 Local Commune, the election of the President of the local SDS Board,

19 is carried out by the people living there in Kozarac. If they had

20 been fighting in the battles around Kozarac, they would not elect him

21 if he had avoided the fighting, in addition to the existence of the

22 decision of the Crisis Staff, according to which he could not be

23 elected, that is, the decision on June 22nd '92, which talks about

24 "loyal Serbs". It is the last in the series.

25 Q. A few days ago you testified that the Serbian Radical Party for

Page 1805

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina went through some transformation. It was enlarged.

2 There was an increase in membership. The territorial organisation

3 was spread out and all this happened in the course of 1992 and '93,

4 and at the end of 1993 the process of organisation was completed on

5 the territory of Republika Srpska. What did you mean by that, (redacted)

6 A. The Serbian Radical Party's presence was not felt very strongly in

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992. It was not even represented in all the

8 regions, not to mention municipalities. Its territorial organisation

9 in the Republika Srspka became firmer in 1992 with the appointment of

10 representatives for the whole Republika Srspka.

11 In the course of the winter of 1992 to 1993, regional boards

12 were elected and the Serbian Radical Party was organised regionally in

13 the Republika Srspka, and at the time, I think in March, (redacted)

14 (redacted), a regional Board was elected, a new Municipal Board for Banja

15 Luka, and the process of transformation of the Serbian Radical Party

16 was completed in the Republika Srspka.

17 From then, or since then, April 1993, it exists as a political

18 party in the whole of the Republika Srpska organised by regions.

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted).

21 Q. So when did the Serbian Radical Party assume political control over

22 the Autonomous Region of Krajina?

23 A. It never had political control in any region of the Republika Srspka.

24 Political control on the territory of the Republika Srspka is held by

25 SDS.

Page 1806

1 Q. Is there an SDS party in Serbia now referred to as the Federal

2 Republic of Yugoslavia?

3 A. I do not know whether it exists today, now, but it was founded and it

4 was part of the Serbian Democratic Party of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

5 Q. Did the Serbian Democratic Party in then Serbia in -- did it exist in

6 1991?

7 A. No.

8 Q. When was it formed in Serbia?

9 A. I think in the second half of '92, after the change of name of the

10 Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina into the Serbian Republic and

11 then the Republika Srspka.

12 Q. What was the relationship, if any, between the Serbian Democratic

13 Party in Serbia and that in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

14 A. The Serbian Democratic Party in Serbia was a part of the Serbian

15 Democratic Party in Bosnia-Herzegovina. The main leadership was in

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17 Q. The main leadership would have been in Banja Luka, I gather, from

18 what you have said, the regional at least?

19 A. Yes, for the region, but the main Board of SDS for Bosnia-Herzegovina

20 was in Sarajevo.

21 Q. The Serbian Radical Party in Serbia, who was the head of that party?

22 Was that Seselj?

23 A. Yes. Vojislav Seselj.

24 Q. What control, if any, did he have over the Serbian Radical Party in

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992, if you know?

Page 1807

1 A. They were fully under the control of the Party because they were a

2 part of that Party. The Serbian Radical Party of Bosnia-Herzegovina

3 was a part of the Serbian Radical Party in Serbia. It was totally

4 controlled by the party in Serbia or, rather, its main Board. What is

5 more, when problems occurred and strife broke out in

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina between members of the Serbian Radical Party,

7 Seselj intervened and a new territorial organisation and new elections

8 in the party were held.

9 Q. What presence did the Serbian Radical Party have in the government of

10 the Autonomous Region of Krajina in 1992 and 1993?

11 A. It was not present in the government.

12 Q. Not as a party?

13 A. Not even as a party.

14 Q. Were there members of the SDS in 1992 and 1993 who had allegiance to

15 the Serbian Radical Party in the Autonomous Region of Krajina?

16 A. Yes, there were. What is more, many members of SDS were at the same

17 time members of the Serbian Radical Party and of the SDS. (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted).

22 Q. (redacted)

23 A. (redacted).

24 Q. What year would that have been?

25 A. '92.

Page 1808

1 Q. Were there any other leaders of the SDS in the Autonomous Region of

2 Krajina who had that dual membership, that is, membership in SDS as

3 well as the Serbian Radical Party?

4 A. Yes, Radoslav Brdjanin was also, or once on radio (redacted) said

5 that he had a membership card of the Serbian Radical Party signed in

6 person by Seselj.

7 Q. What position did he hold?

8 A. At that time when he made this statement he was Vice President of the

9 government of the Republika Srspka and Minister of Civil Engineering.

10 Q. When would that have been, what year?

11 A. '92, I think the second half of '92.

12 Q. Were there any other leaders of SDS and the Autonomous Krajina

13 Region who held leadership positions and who also held membership in

14 the Serbian Radical Party as well as being members of the SDS party?

15 A. I do not know of many such cases -- at least not at the level of the

16 Autonomous Region.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, do you have additional questions?

18 MR. TIEGER: No, your Honour.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff, do you have additional questions?

20 MR. WLADIMIROFF: May I just confer for a minute?


22 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No further questions, your Honour.

23 JUDGE STEPHEN: Mr. Tieger, I wonder if during the interval you would have

24 a look at the translation of Exhibit 150 and correct it, if necessary?

25 MR. TIEGER: Yes.

Page 1809

1 JUDGE STEPHEN: It seems to implicate somebody called "Dusko" at the

2 moment which does not seem to be justified.

3 MR. TIEGER: No, I had intended, thank you.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Additional matters? Is there any objection to

5 witness P being permanently excused, Mr. Wladimiroff?

6 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: (redacted), you are permanently excused. Thank you very

8 much for coming. You may leave at this point and we will stand in

9 recess for 20 minutes.

10 (The witness withdrew)

11 (4.00 p.m.)

12 (Adjourned for a short time)

13 (4.20 p.m.)

14 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, Judge Stephen made reference to Exhibit 150 and

15 what appeared from the rather poor photocopies there of an error in

16 the translation. It is not an error but there is an explanation for

17 it. If your Honours please, I will call a member of the translation

18 staff tomorrow morning first thing to explain the reason why she put

19 those words in, if your Honours please? It will only be very short.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. We have spoken with the representative from

21 the Registry. We can clear it up tomorrow morning, if you wish,

22 first.

23 MR. NIEMANN: I would just be very ---

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You want to do that?

25 MR. NIEMANN: -- very keen to -----

Page 1810

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. Would you like to call another witness? We

2 are in open session.


4 (Open session



7 Now it is Miss Hollis, very good. Would you call your next witness,

8 please?

9 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour. Your Honour, the Prosecution calls

10 Osman Selak.

11 MR. OSMAN SELAK, called

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Selak, would you take that oath, please?

13 THE WITNESS [In translation]: Yes, I solemnly declare that I will

14 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

15 (The witness was sworn)

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may be seated.

17 Examined by MISS HOLLIS

18 Q. Sir, would you please state your full name?

19 A. Selak Osman.

20 Q. What is your date of birth?

21 A. 20th May 1935.

22 Q. Where were you born?

23 A. Visegrad, the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

24 Q. Where is Visegrad located in the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

25 A. Eastern part of Bosnia-Herzegovina, towards the border with Serbia.

Page 1811

1 Q. Sir, what is your ethnic group or nationality?

2 A. Bosniak.

3 Q. What is your religion?

4 A. Islamic.

5 Q. What is your current occupation?

6 A. Director of a business unit of Sokolac, a company in Tuzla with

7 headquarters in Sarajevo.

8 Q. What was your prior occupation?

9 A. Officer of the Yugoslav People's Army.

10 Q. How long did you serve in the Yugoslav People's Army?

11 A. From 1955 to 1992.

12 Q. What was your area of specialisation within the military?

13 A. Logistics.

14 Q. What was your rank when you left the military?

15 A. Colonel.

16 Q. Mr. Selak, I would like to ask you some questions about your military

17 training and background. You received your initial military schooling

18 at Vojno Tehnicka Academy in Zagreb, did you not?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. While there you studied technical maintenance of equipment, primarily

21 combat vehicles and tanks?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You graduated from there in 1958 with the rank of 2nd Lieutenant and

24 after that you were assigned to the geographic area of Banja Luka?

25 A. A 2nd Lieutenant and assigned to Banja Luka.

Page 1812

1 Q. Sir, how long did you remain assigned to the Banja Luka area?

2 A. Throughout my service.

3 Q. Where is Banja Luka in relation to Prijedor?

4 A. 50 kilometres to the east.

5 Q. In relation to the town of Kozarac?

6 A. 40 to 42 kilometres.

7 Q. When you were first assigned to Banja Luka, you first held the

8 position of Commander of a Technical Maintenance platoon there; is

9 that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Is that a "yes"?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. After that you became Commander of the supply platoon of the

14 technical company there?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Then you became Commander of the logistics platoon at the training

17 area in the Manjaca polygon; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Which type of training was conducted there, at the training area in

20 the Manjaca polygon?

21 A. The training was driving of tanks, firing training, training of

22 infantry units.

23 Q. When you say "firing training", you are referring to the firing of

24 what?

25 A. Combat vehicles, tanks, APCs and ground artillery.

Page 1813

1 Q. How close was that training area to what was later to become the

2 Manjaca detention camp?

3 A. Manjaca camp was in the centre of the training grounds.

4 Q. To your knowledge, did the military actually prepare this camp for

5 use as a detention centre?

6 A. Not before.

7 Q. When did they do this?

8 A. They did it in 1992, towards the end of May and in early June.

9 Q. This was the military who prepared this camp?

10 A. No, I was on the training grounds when the inmates did it.

11 Q. At the direction of the military?

12 A. No, the commander, superiors. Military police was there.

13 Q. I would like to show you a photograph, and for the Defence's

14 information this is document 5/14. I would like to have this marked

15 as Prosecution 160 for identification. I would ask that that

16 photograph be called up on to the computer monitor. Colonel Selak, do

17 you recognise the buildings and the location of that photograph?

18 A. Yes, these are the buildings in the Manjaca training grounds. This

19 is the camp.

20 Q. What is the sign that appears in this photograph?

21 A. The sign is, it says over the gate "the camp" and the transprohibited

22 in Cyrillic alphabet.

23 MISS HOLLIS: I would tender Prosecution Exhibit 160.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

25 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

Page 1814

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 160 will be admitted.

2 MISS HOLLIS (To the witness): Colonel Selak, after commanding the

3 logistics platoon at the training centre you were transferred to the

4 Zaluzani barracks; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. This was a JNA garrison located about eight to 10 kilometres away

7 from Banja Luka?

8 A. North of Banja Luka, yes.

9 Q. What type of facility was this?

10 A. It was the centre for the training of drivers for combat vehicles for

11 the entire Yugoslav People's Army.

12 Q. From 1964 until late 1965, you were the Commander of the maintenance

13 platoon there?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. At that point you were transferred to the school centre for armoured

16 and mechanized units?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Where was that school located?

19 A. In the town of Banja Luka, in the barracks Bane Stojanovic.

20 Q. What type of school was that?

21 A. It was the Military Academy for armoured and mechanized units, a

22 second military school for reserves officers, a school where courses

23 were organised for the Commanders of armoured and mechanized units of

24 the army of Yugoslavia.

25 Q. What duties did you perform there?

Page 1815

1 A. I was, as part of my, the commander responsible for the regulations

2 on the use of tanks.

3 Q. What other duties did you perform?

4 A. I was Deputy Commander of the technical maintenance service in the

5 management of the secondary school centre for armoured and mechanized

6 units.

7 Q. Then in 1977 you became the Deputy Manager of the 993rd Technical

8 Base at Banja Luka?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In August of 1981 you became the Manager of 993rd Technical Base?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. How long did you hold that position?

13 A. Until the Rear Technical Bases were set on 28th December 1989.

14 Q. What was your next position?

15 A. Commander of 993 Rear Technical Base in Banja Luka.

16 Q. How long did you hold that position?

17 A. Until I retired on 10th July 1992.

18 Q. I am sorry, I did not hear the last .....

19 A. Until my retirement.

20 Q. Sir, you said that your military speciality was logistics; could you

21 give the court a very brief description of the logistics function in

22 the JNA?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Would you please do so?

25 A. Yes, I will. The logistics security of the Yugoslav People's Army

Page 1816

1 was based on the materiel reserves of the Yugoslav People's Army and

2 the resources, economic resources, of the state of Yugoslavia.

3 Q. What type of materiel did you provide to the military?

4 A. Armaments, ammunition, fuel, supplies, equipment, personal equipment,

5 joint equipment, medicines, services such as maintenance -- all that

6 comes under the logistics support of an army.

7 Q. Sir, you mentioned that in 1989 there was a reorganisation and rear

8 bases were formed such as Rear Base 993. How many such bases were

9 formed?

10 A. In the Yugoslav People's Army, there were 16 such bases.

11 Q. Were you familiar with the other logistics bases in addition to your

12 own?

13 A. Yes, with bases in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is, the

14 command of the first Military District in Belgrade. I did not know

15 others.

16 Q. Each rear base had a geographic area of responsibility; is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Within these geographic areas of responsibility, each base provided

20 logistics support to JNA units located within those areas; is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 MISS HOLLIS: I would like to have this document marked as Prosecution

24 Exhibit 161 for identification, and for the Defence this is map 1.

25 (Document handed). (To the witness): Colonel Selak, would you please

Page 1817

1 look at that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Does that document depict your logistics area of operation before

4 18th May 1992?

5 A. Yes.

6 MISS HOLLIS: I would tender Prosecution Exhibit 161.

7 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection? Exhibit 161 will be admitted.

9 MISS HOLLIS: If we could put that on the elmo, please? Sir, looking at

10 this document, would you please tell us what this area within the

11 dotted line, the area that includes Kozara Mountain, Prijedor, Banja

12 Luka, what does that area represent?

13 A. This area indicates the peace time area of responsibility and the

14 logistic support of the units of the corps of the army for which my

15 base provided support in this area.

16 Q. Sir, the wider area that is totally encompassed by this solid red

17 line, what does that represent?

18 A. This area represents the area of responsibility of the logistics

19 support of the units at the outset of the war and during the war in

20 Croatia.

21 Q. Looking at the area that is marked in solid red, is that an area that

22 was supplied by you logistically?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Looking at this exhibit, I note that there are some towns that are

25 located outside of Bosnia, towns in Croatia; these are units that you

Page 1818

1 supplied in Croatia?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. These would be JNA units that you supplied there; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. These units that you supplied there would be units that were involved

6 in the fighting in Croatia, fighting against Croats?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Sir, within your area of operations or area of responsibility, was

9 the 5th corps also known as the Banja Luka corps within your area of

10 responsibility?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Where was that corps headquartered?

13 A. In Banja Luka.

14 Q. If we could retrieve the exhibit from the witness? Colonel Selak, I

15 would like to speak with you for a moment about JNA uniforms. During

16 your service in the JNA, what was the regular JNA uniform?

17 A. Grey, olive green with insignia on shoulders. On their lapels of the

18 uniform there were metal insignia of the branch, of the army. On the

19 caps there was an emblem with a five pointed star.

20 Q. Sir, this uniform that you have just mentioned, are you talking about

21 what is sometimes referred as to as the SMB uniform?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. This uniform was solid in colour?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You indicated that there were insignia on the shoulders, I believe?

Page 1819

1 What insignia was this?

2 A. Those were ranks, insignia for ranks, for superiors.

3 Q. Who would wear the insignia on their shoulders, what categories of

4 personnel?

5 A. Insignia was worn there from soldiers, warrant officers, sergeants,

6 staff sergeants and active duty officers from the sergeant to general.

7 Q. So you are talking basically about non-commissioned officers and

8 officers?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. The hat that you mentioned, would this be the same colour as the

11 uniform?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In 1986 or 1987 was a new uniform introduced into the JNA?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What was this uniform called?

16 A. That uniform was a camouflage uniform, lighter green, dark green. We

17 called them camouflage uniforms. They could not be used in peace

18 time; only under wartime conditions.

19 MISS HOLLIS: At this time I would like to have this document marked as

20 Prosecution Exhibit 162 for identification. This is document 5.1.10.

21 (Document handed). I would ask that that be provided to the witness.

22 If we could call that up on the computer, please, to be shown on the

23 computer monitor? (To the witness): Colonel Selak, Prosecution

24 Exhibit 162 for identification, is that the uniform that you just

25 described to us as the camouflage uniform?

Page 1820

1 A. Yes.

2 MISS HOLLIS: I would tender Prosecution Exhibit 162.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection?


5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 162 will be admitted.

6 MISS HOLLIS (To the witness): Colonel Selak, the uniform appears at least

7 in the photograph to have an insignia on the left pocket. Do you see

8 that insignia?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What is that insignia?

11 A. It is the insignia of rank which was worn on the left pocket of the

12 camouflage uniform. It is in metal, indicated in metal.

13 Q. Were any other insignia authorised for wear on this camouflage

14 uniform?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Do you know the man in this photograph?

17 A. Very well.

18 Q. Who is he?

19 A. Retired Lieutenant Colonel Popovic Bozo, reactivated and Commander of

20 the Manjaca prisoners camp.

21 Q. You say he was retired Lieutenant Colonel; to your knowledge, had he

22 been in active duty or a reserve officer?

23 A. He was an active duty officer.

24 Q. If you know, where was he from?

25 A. I think he is from Bosnia but by origin a Montenegrin. I am not sure.

Page 1821

1 I think he is from Bosnia, but his parents from Montenegro.

2 Q. When would he have performed duties as the Commander of the Manjaca

3 detention camp?

4 A. Immediately after the camp was formed.

5 Q. This occurred when?

6 A. 1992, somewhere at the beginning of July.

7 Q. Of July or of June?

8 A. June.

9 Q. After the introduction of this camouflage uniform, was it authorised

10 to wear either uniform daily?

11 A. No, except the camouflage uniform, we had olive grey uniform for

12 soldiers that we used during exercises and training, and for units

13 that did not have the necessary number of new camouflage uniforms

14 could use the old ones.

15 Q. So prior to the outbreak of conflict this uniform was worn for

16 training purposes?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Then after the outbreak of conflict, first in Croatia and then in

19 Bosnia, when was it authorised to wear this uniform?

20 A. Immediately after mobilization, it was compulsory to wear this

21 uniform.

22 Q. Which mobilization are you talking about?

23 A. There were several and for various units at various times. The first

24 mobilization in my area of responsibility, a part of the educational

25 centre, this was in May '91.

Page 1822

1 Q. So after that it was authorised to wear this uniform?

2 A. Only for that unit.

3 Q. The units that were mobilized?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you have difficulty supplying all of the mobilized units with

6 this camouflage uniform?

7 A. The smaller units, we had no problems, but later when the whole corps

8 was mobilized we could not immediately provide camouflage uniforms for

9 all the enlisted men. It needed time.

10 Q. As you mentioned, the ones you could not supply with camouflage

11 uniforms were allowed to wear the SMB uniforms; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What hat would be worn with this uniform?

14 A. We called it "titovka" and at the top of the cap in peace time we

15 used a five cornered star with the emblem, and later it was a linen

16 insignia, a linen mark, on which was written "JNA".

17 Q. What type of insignia was it? Was it just the lettering "JNA" or was

18 there something else on this insignia?

19 A. At first, there was the flag blue, white, red, and across it

20 embroidered the letters "JNA".

21 Q. For what period of time did "JNA" appear on these caps?

22 A. A very short time. I cannot give you the exact date. I already had

23 problems because of this. I do not know the exact date. I think it

24 was somewhere until end of May '92.

25 Q. You mentioned this three colour flag; this was the flag of what

Page 1823

1 Republic or entity?

2 A. It was the flag of the Republic of Serbia or, rather, of the Serb

3 entity in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

4 Q. Prior to 1991 who besides the JNA was authorised to wear JNA

5 uniforms?

6 A. The Territorial Defence. They were entitled to wear them if they had

7 them and no one else.

8 Q. The military police uniforms in the JNA, did they differ from the

9 regular uniforms in any respect?

10 A. No, they were the same, but the military police wore white belts.

11 Q. To your knowledge, did the JNA at any time have any blue camouflage

12 type uniforms?

13 A. In the land forces, no.

14 Q. What forces had blue camouflage uniforms?

15 A. I do not know, perhaps a part of the Air Force. I did not have such

16 uniforms, nor did I issue them. I do not know who has blue camouflage

17 uniforms. It is outside the standard of the Yugoslav Army.

18 Q. After the supposed JNA withdrawal from Bosnia-Herzegovina, is that

19 when the insignia on the hat was changed from the five point star to

20 this flag?

21 A. The five pointed star was eliminated and the letters "JNA" were

22 removed. Later, on the shoulders, the Army of the Republic of Serbia,

23 their insignia were put on the left shoulder.

24 Q. What was that insignia?

25 A. It was round in shape with the letters "VRS" on it, Army of the

Page 1824

1 Republika Srspka.

2 Q. You have mentioned that you did have some difficulty getting enough

3 uniforms to supply everyone. Did this lead to some uniforms that were

4 slightly different in colour from the uniform we see before us?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What were the differences?

7 A. Due to a shortage of camouflage uniforms, production started in

8 various companies of a similar uniform, not using this material but

9 with the same insignia for ranks. These were manufactured by certain

10 factories on the territory of Yugoslavia.

11 Q. You, the JNA, issued these uniforms to authorised personnel?

12 A. I issued uniforms to the corps and their brigades, and I had no

13 influence on the actual distribution of uniforms at the lower level,

14 so I do not know whom they gave it to, but there was a diversity of

15 uniforms. One could see people wearing uniforms of different colours.

16 Q. Sir, now I would like to ask you some questions relating to the

17 organisation of the JNA. In the Yugoslav military or defence

18 structure, the JNA was the primary defence component and it was

19 controlled by the federative authorities of the Socialist Federal

20 Republic of Yugoslavia; is that correct?

21 A. (Answer not interpreted).

22 Q. That is "yes"?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And the JNA was divided into an active duty component and a reserve

25 component?

Page 1825

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And the active duty component contained what categories of personnel?

3 A. Officers, non-commissioned officers, and soldiers doing their regular

4 military service which lasted one year to 15 months, and this

5 underwent a change in the last 10 or 15 years.

6 Q. Did the active duty component also include civilians who worked for

7 the military?

8 A. Yes, those were civilians working for the JNA who did not wear

9 uniforms.

10 Q. The reserve component would have consisted of what categories of

11 personnel?

12 A. Reserve officers, reserve non-commissioned officers and military

13 conscripts, soldiers.

14 Q. Within the reserve component, reserve officers would train and

15 perform duties every year; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Reserve soldiers would train only cyclically, that is, every so many

18 years; is that correct?

19 A. Yes, after four years, sometimes earlier on if the need arose for a

20 certain skill, for additional training in new types of weaponry and

21 equipment, but this applied to a smaller number of people.

22 Q. Colonel Selak, during your JNA career, you were an active duty

23 officer, not a reserve officer; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Sir, could you tell us within the JNA what the NCO ranks were -- the

Page 1826

1 non-commissioned officer ranks, excuse me?

2 A. You are thinking of ranks?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. The soldiers ranks were leader, a corporal and sergeant.

5 Q. Colonel Selak, I am asking about the non-commissioned officer ranks.

6 A. Within the non-commissioned officers, we had a sergeant, sergeant

7 first class, a senior sergeant, staff sergeant, warrant officer and

8 first class warrant officer.

9 Q. I would like to ask you some questions about the ethnic composition

10 of the Yugoslav People's Army. Within the military, how would you

11 know what ethnic group a military member belonged to?

12 A. For active duty military, the files -- each member had his own file

13 which was kept in the Brigade or in the corps and in the army command

14 or the military zone. The Commander of the unit had insight at any

15 given time into that file which contained, in addition to personal

16 data, data on national composition which would show where the person

17 came from, where he was born and what ethnic group he belonged to.

18 Q. Prior to 1991, to your knowledge, what was the ethnic composition of

19 the officer corps of the JNA?

20 A. This data was never officially published, but I can say for my unit

21 and make a rough estimate regarding the situation in the Banja Luka

22 corps in which I served. In my base about 90 per cent of the officers

23 were of Serb nationality. The situation was similar at the level of

24 the Banja Luka corps.

25 Q. As of 1991 and 1992, what change, if any, occurred in that ethnic

Page 1827

1 composition?

2 A. When the first mobilization was carried out in '91, the ethnic

3 composition reflected the situation on the ground. However, at the end

4 of '91 and in '92 this was seriously disrupted and the ethnic

5 composition of both Commanders and soldiers was 99 per cent Serbs.

6 Q. Why this increase in the percentage of Serbs in the military as of

7 1991 and 1992?

8 A. The war in Croatia, the Croats were first to withdraw from units and

9 they were followed by the Muslims or the Bosniaks, so that there was

10 an ethnically completely clean composition, only individuals remained

11 in their units -- I mean, individual Muslims and Croats.

12 Q. These vacancies were then filled by persons of the Serb ethnic group?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Sir, within this Serb ethnic group, was there any way to determine

15 which of these Serb officers were from Serbia or Montenegro as opposed

16 to being from Bosnia, Croatia or Slovenia?

17 A. That could be established in two ways. I am talking about Banja Luka

18 and the Banja Luka region. First, the dialect differs in Serbia from

19 what is spoken in Bosnia, so that you could recognise a Serb, a

20 Montenegrin from Serbia if he was serving in Bosnia. Also, you could

21 recognise Macedonian by his language because it is a different

22 dialect. Also, we knew each other, at least I am talking about us in

23 Banja Luka where I served; and in my superior command in Belgrade,

24 later in Sarajevo, I knew most of the officers because we communicated

25 amongst ourselves for many years, and also I had files from which I

Page 1828

1 could see. I could look at somebody's personal file and see where he

2 was from.

3 Q. To your knowledge, was any such breakdown ever made or published for

4 the members of the military?

5 A. I never had any such information.

6 Q. Sir, when you were talking about the ethnic composition, you spoke of

7 the active duty force. Do you have any information as to what the

8 ethnic composition was of the reserve officer corps before 1991?

9 A. The reserve corps in ethnic terms corresponded to the territory of

10 each unit, that is where the recruits came from, so that, for

11 instance, in Banja Luka the ratio among Serbs Croats and Muslims was

12 about 40-20, 25 per cent in favour of the Serbs. The reserve force

13 reflected the composition of the population locally, and this applied

14 to all other localities because by their organisations units are

15 replenished from the territory where they are based.

16 Q. Did this ethnic composition change in 1991 and 1992?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How did it change?

19 A. In such a way that the Muslims and Croats left themselves, but also

20 they were forced out because there were threats of liquidation, as was

21 the case with one of my commanders.

22 Q. Sir, what commander was that?

23 A. Commander of Ammunition Depot when in March '92 he was threatened,

24 his life was threatened. I urgently replaced him and he demobilized

25 of his own will and he had to flee Banja Luka. Mujajic Alisa is his

Page 1829

1 name, Lieutenant Colonel.

2 Q. He was of what ethnic group?

3 A. Bosniak.

4 Q. And his religious group?

5 A. Islamic.

6 Q. Now the non-Commissioned Officer Corps after 1991 and after, what was

7 its ethnic composition?

8 A. (No translation).

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We are missing the translation.

10 MISS HOLLIS: We have no interpretation.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Could you repeat that please, Colonel?

12 THE WITNESS: In my case too there are interruptions.

13 MISS HOLLIS: Sir, would you please ----

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We did not hear any of the answer.

15 MISS HOLLIS: Sir, may I repeat my question and ask you then to repeat

16 your answer.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. The non-Commissioned Officer Corps in 1991 and after, what was the

19 composition of that corps?

20 A. The ethnic composition of the Non-Commissioned Officer Corps in '91

21 was replenished from secondary military schools, and they spent longer

22 periods in the places of residence where they were born. The ethnic

23 composition was also majority Serb. Perhaps more than 90 per cent were

24 Serbs.

25 Q. Sir, now I would like to ask you some questions about the ethnic

Page 1830

1 orientation of the JNA. Prior to 1991 were you aware of any

2 indications of discrimination against non-Serbs in such things as

3 selection for important military schools?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What type of discriminations were you aware of?

6 A. People complained to me of Bosniak and Croatian ethnic groups, that

7 their children cannot pass the competitions for military schools,

8 especially for secondary military schools and also for the academy

9 because at medical examinations the criteria applied were different.

10 This was not officially stated anywhere, but people complained whose

11 children went for these examinations and I know of several cases,

12 concrete cases.

13 Q. Sir, to your knowledge was there any type of discrimination in the

14 selection for military schools, advanced military schools for officers

15 who were already in the military?

16 A. There were certain criticisms, especially for the training of

17 officers upon the completion of academy and after the joining the

18 command staff and wartime schools without which no promotion in their

19 career could be possible.

20 Q. What groups were discriminated against in attendance to these

21 schools?

22 A. Bosniaks, Croats.

23 Q. Sir, when you say ----

24 A. Macedonians.

25 Q. Sir, when you say "Bosniaks" to what group are you referring?

Page 1831

1 A. I am referring to Muslims.

2 Q. In your own situation looking at 1991 and 1992, were there any

3 changes in the way you were treated during that time period?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What changes were there in your treatment?

6 A. During official tours of units and in municipal assemblies where I

7 had to have contact with the authorities in '91, I was always escorted

8 with the assistant for morality, Major Jordan and later Lieutenant

9 Colonel, and the Chief of Staff of Security Captain First Class Fricer

10 Ivan. The official position was that they were going to protect me.

11 However, I established that in fact they were there to control my

12 behaviour.

13 Q. I believe you said Major Jordan was one of the escorts. What was his

14 ----

15 A. Major Pavlovic Jordan. Later he was Lieutenant Colonel.

16 Q. Major Pavlovic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What was his status? What he an active duty or a reserve officer?

19 A. He belonged to the active duty corps.

20 Q. What was his ethnic group, if you know?

21 A. Serb.

22 Q. Do you know where he was from?

23 A. I do, from Uzice in Serbia.

24 Q. I believe you mentioned someone else who supported you, a captain

25 First Class Fricer?

Page 1832

1 A. Fricer Ivan, Chief of Staff of Security in the command of my base.

2 Q. Was he an active duty or a reserve officer?

3 A. Active duty.

4 Q. And what was his ethnic group, if you know?

5 A. He was a Slovac, born from the surroundings of Pakrac in Croatia and

6 he is still an active duty officer in the army of the Republika

7 Srspka.

8 Q. Now at the time that you were being escorted by these officers, did

9 you feel, yourself feel any personal threat to your safety?

10 A. Personally I had no reason for that, at least that was my estimate.

11 Q. Were there any specific locations in 1991 or 1992 from which you were

12 prevented from going?

13 A. Yes, when the genocide was carried out in Kozarac near Banja Luka on

14 May 27th 1992 I was supposed to go to the fuel depot near Prijedor in

15 Brezicani. My Chief of Staff, Colonel Cendic, told me that I should

16 not go there because I could be liquidated because the population in

17 Kozarac had been massacred and my presence might be misinterpreted.

18 Q. Who told you this, your Chief of Staff?

19 A. The Chief of Staff Colonel Cendic Radislav, Rade.

20 Q. Colonel Cendic, what his status? Was he active duty or reserve?

21 A. Active duty officer.

22 Q. What was his ethnic group?

23 A. Serb.

24 Q. Do you know where he was from?

25 A. I do, from Cacak Serbia.

Page 1833

1 Q. He told you this on what date?

2 A. We were given approval to use federal reserves of fuel at the

3 Brezicani near Prijedor. I was supposed to go with the chief of the

4 technical service to organise the takeover of part of the fuel that

5 was given to us, and when my Chief of Staff heard of this Colonel

6 Cendic and because to reach Brezicani you have to go via Kozarac, he

7 told me that I should not go there. He did not prohibit me from going

8 but he said that I should not go there for reasons of personal safety.

9 Q. When was this?

10 A. I think it was end of May or beginning of June 1992.

11 Q. Now in addition to these escorts that you had, were there any other

12 differences and treatment towards you in 1991 or 1992?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What were those?

15 A. Before that there were regular meetings in the corps command. On the

16 Corps Commander premises it was Lieutenant General Nikola Uzelac.

17 Those meetings were attended by his assistants and myself as the

18 commander of the logistics base. Until September '91 I was regularly

19 invited to the briefings which began at 7 o'clock in the morning.

20 However, later on I was invited to attend at 7.30. By that time they

21 would have already finished discussing some questions and after I

22 would arrive they would discuss the logistics with me. I realised

23 that as a mistrust towards me.

24 Q. You mentioned that this was when General Uzelac was Corps Commander.

25 Are you talking about the 5th Corps?

Page 1834

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. He was an active duty or a reserve officer?

3 A. Active.

4 Q. And what was his ethnic group?

5 A. Serb.

6 Q. Do you know where he was from?

7 A. I think he was from Croatia, from some place.

8 Q. These other officers who continued to attend the meeting at 7 o'clock

9 in the morning, what was their ethnic group?

10 A. They were assistants of the commander. I know their names. I can

11 list them. They were all Serbs.

12 Q. Was there some incident that occurred just prior to your being called

13 in to these meetings a half hour late?

14 A. Those meetings continued to begin at 7 and I was invited at half past

15 7. What they discussed during that half hour I can only guess. I

16 saw no written document about that, so I do not know what questions

17 they discussed then, but I can assume what it could be about.

18 Q. You said this began around September or October of 1991; is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Was there some incident that had occurred just prior to this

22 involving General Uzelac?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And what was this incident?

25 A. There was a case when General Uzelac requested me to issue weapons to

Page 1835

1 TO units in Sipovo and Mrkonjic. Those units were not mobilized and

2 under the then regulations they were not entitled to those weapons.

3 Q. Did you issue the weapons?

4 A. Yes, when official orders came from the superior command the

5 armaments were issued to Sipovo, Mrkonjic and Jajce.

6 Q. Sipovo, the TO units there were comprised of what ethnic group or

7 groups?

8 A. The ethnic composition of the municipality of Sipovo was I think

9 about 65 per cent Serbs and the rest were Muslims and Croats. In

10 Mrkonjic Grad it was similar.

11 Q. In Jajce?

12 A. In Jajce 34, 35 per cent were Muslims, about 34 per cent were Croats

13 and some 20 per cent were Serbs.

14 Q. This was the composition of the TO unit at the time these weapons

15 were provided?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you recall an incident involving General Uzelac and General Arsic

18 which concerned the situation in Bihac?

19 A. I remember the situation in Bihac. It was 15th November '91,, but it

20 was not General Arsic but General Adzic. So it was the Chief of Staff.

21 It is him you mean?

22 Q. Yes, perhaps I misspoke. I meant General Adzic. Were you present at

23 a meeting where this situation was discussed?

24 A. Yes, there was a meeting in the army club in Banja Luka attended by

25 General Adzic, General Raseta from Zagreb. Then representatives of

Page 1836

1 the Knin Corps, of the Army Republic Serb Krajina and some assistants

2 to the Banja Luka Corps Commander. I was also present at the meeting.

3 Q. At that meeting did General Adzic give you and General Uzelac a task

4 concerning Bihac?

5 A. Yes, during the meeting General Adzic ordered General Uzelac and

6 myself to go to Bihac to quiet down the political situation in Bihac,

7 organise a meeting with representatives of municipalities in the

8 region of Bihac and representatives of political parties in the region

9 of Bihac, saying, "You, Nikola", that is Uzelac's name, "You, Nikola,

10 take care of the Serbs and Osman will take care of the Turks."

11 Q. Did you reply to that?

12 A. I responded spontaneously and said: "I guess you mean the Muslims,

13 Command General?" Nobody had any comment, neither he had any. The

14 same thing was repeated on the same day at the airport, Mahovljani at

15 Banja Luka when General Uzelac and I were seeing General Adzic off to

16 Belgrade. He repeated that saying that Nikola would take care of the

17 Serbs and Osman of the Turks. I reacted again and said: "You mean

18 Muslims?" and he did not say anything, but General Uzelac only looked

19 at me with hatred and that was when problems began and when mistrust

20 towards me began.

21 Q. Colonel Selak, General Adzic, you said he was on the General Staff.

22 Was that the General Staff located in Belgrade?

23 A. General Uzelac was the Commander of the 5th Corps of the Yugoslav

24 People's Army in Banja Luka, and the army command was in Belgrade.

25 Q. Yes, and General Adzic, was he on the General Staff located in

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1 Belgrade?

2 A. General Adzic was the Chief of the General Staff in Belgrade.

3 Q. Was he an active duty officer?

4 A. Active duty, yes.

5 Q. And what was his ethnic group?

6 A. Serb.

7 Q. Do you know where he is from?

8 A. Cacko, Herzegovina Bosnia-Herzegovina.

9 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I am about to move to another line of

10 questioning.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. I appreciate that. We will adjourn

12 until tomorrow at 10 a.m.

13 (The court adjourned until the following day).