1 THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL TRIBUNAL CASE NO. IT-94-1-T

2 FOR THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA

3 IN THE TRIAL CHAMBER

4 Tuesday, 11th June 1996

5 (10.00 a.m.)

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Good morning, Mr. Niemann, are you ready to proceed

7 with your next witness?

8 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. The next witness will be taken by my

9 colleague, Mr. Tieger, but at this stage I might just mention we have

10 served on Mr. Wladimiroff and we will file an up-to-date witness list

11 of the witnesses that we anticipate calling over the next two weeks.

12 The order of witnesses in some cases changed slightly from what was

13 originally intended.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: How many did you drop?

15 MR. NIEMANN: Some witnesses have refused to testify so we will not be

16 able to call them.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I would not encourage that. That is very sad if

18 that occurs, and you know that is just my humour.

19 MR. NIEMANN: Sorry, your Honour. Some of the witnesses are not available

20 at this stage and some other of the witnesses we wish to speak to

21 because they are reluctant to testify, but if we speak to them we may

22 be able to discuss protective measures with them. So that is some of

23 the reasons why the list has been changed slightly from what was

24 originally intended, but that is available now and I can file that.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Maybe now is a good time to point out for the record

1 once again Rule 77 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence of the

2 Tribunal that deals with contempt. As you remember, we talked about

3 that Friday. So once again, I wish to make it clear that the Tribunal

4 is very serious and very concerned that witnesses not be intimidated

5 or interfered with in any way. If that comes to the attention of the

6 Trial Chamber, we will enforce without hesitation Rule 77 of the Rules

7 of Procedure and Evidence of the Tribunal which provides that, "any

8 person who attempts to interfere with or intimidate a witness may be

9 found guilty of contempt and sentenced in accordance with subrule

10 (A)"; subrule (A) of our Rules provides that, "anyone who is found

11 guilty of contempt can be fined in a sum not exceeding $10,000 or a

12 term of imprisonment not exceeding six months". That is a matter that

13 the Trial Chamber is very concerned about.

14 It does not expect it to happen, but if it comes to the

15 attention that there is any interference or intimidation, then we will

16 enforce that Rule without hesitation. The lawyers should know that

17 and bring it to our attention, Mr. Wladimiroff and Mr. Niemann, and we

18 will act accordingly. Very good. Mr. Niemann, is there anything else?

19 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honours. Although it has not been formally filed

20 yet, I will hand a copy of this list to your Honours and we will

21 undertake to file it in due course. There are three copies.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Are we going to proceed, Mr. Tieger?

23 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour. Pursuant to the court's order, we will be

24 in closed session this morning.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The Trial Chamber will now go into closed session to

1 receive the testimony of the next witness.

2

3

4 (Hearing in closed session-released by Trial Chamber II on 30 August 1996)

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I will ask that the technicians verify that we are

6 in closed and this is not being transmitted out? Yes, they have given

7 me the signal that it is not being transmitted to the public. Mr.

8 Tieger, would you like to proceed?

9 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour. The Prosecution's next witness is Q and if

10 he may be brought in?

11 Witness Q was called.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you take that oath, please?

13 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole

14 truth and nothing but the truth.

15 (The witness was sworn)

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may be seated. I presume, Mr. Tieger, you will

17 follow Judge Stephen's suggestion regarding the other witness, or is

18 that necessary since we have the name on the list, but I think it is

19 probably necessary since we have never seen the witness.

20 MR. TIEGER: I think that is a sound suggestion, your Honour.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK.

22 MR. TIEGER: Once again, if Miss Sutherland can show Mr. Wladimiroff the

23 name to be presented to the witness? (Same indicated to Defence

24 counsel).

25 Examined by MR. TIEGER

1 Q. Sir, having looked at the name on that piece of paper, is that your

2 true name?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. During the course of these proceedings, however, we will be referring

5 to you as "Q" or "Mr. Q". Sir, where were you born?

6 A. Prijedor.

7 Q. Where were you raised?

8 A. In Kozarac.

9 Q. Did you live in Kozarac your entire life until the conflict in 1992?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. (redacted)

12 A. (redacted)

13 Q. Did you attend elementary school in Kozarac?

14 A. I did.

15 Q. Including Rade Kondic Elementary School?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you then attend secondary school in Prijedor?

18 A. I did.

19 Q. After that did you perform your compulsory service with the JNA for

20 one year?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 A. (redacted).

25 Q. (redacted)

1 A. (redacted).

2 Q. (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 A. (redacted)

5 Q. (redacted)

6 A. (redacted)

7 Q. Do you recall the approximate size of the Kozarac area including all

8 the local communes?

9 A. To my knowledge, after the census of '88 there should have been

10 something about 26,000 Kozarac and the latest figures should be

11 around 31,000.

12 Q. The latest prewar figures?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What was the ethnic composition of the Kozarac area?

15 A. I should say about 90 per cent were Muslims and 10 per cent others.

16 Q. How were relations between the ethnic groups in the Kozarac area

17 during the time you were growing up?

18 A. The answer is very simple, great.

19 Q. Did people make distinctions between Muslims, Serbs and Croats?

20 A. No.

21 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would like to have the next exhibit in order

22 marked, it is a video depicting portions of the Kozarac area. I

23 believe that is Prosecution's 195. If there are no objections, I

24 would like to play a portion of that video and ask for identification

25 of what is depicted by the witness.

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. You may do so.

2 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): Sir, we are going to show a video and I will

3 ask you to identify those portions of the video with which you are

4 familiar as the video is running. If there is a place where it

5 should be stopped -- I say this also for the benefit of the people in

6 the booth -- we may be asking periodically to have the video stopped.

7 It may also run all the way through without the necessity to do so.

8 So if we could begin now, sir, if you can identify relevant portions?

9 It will be shown on your screen.

10 (The video was played)

11 Can we stop that for a moment? OK, sir, what street does this depict and

12 in what directions are we looking?

13 A. This is Marsala Tita Street and a small street seen here, at least as

14 I see it, it is my left-hand side, it leads to the church, in simplest

15 terms.

16 Q. That would be the street going off to the left? Is Marsala Tita the

17 main street in Kozarac?

18 A. Yes, it is.

19 Q. Thank you. Can we proceed?

20 A. (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 Q. (redacted)

23 A. (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 Q. (redacted)

1 A. (redacted)

2 Q. Can we proceed?

3 A. This is a private, residential house and next come the butchers.

4 This was the old bakery. We called this part, these tall buildings, a

5 restaurant. These are also private, residential homes. This was the

6 family home of Mr. Tadic and his coffee shop, also private houses.

7 There was another shop here. This is the street leading to the

8 hospital. All these are private homes. They are still all private

9 homes.

10 A shop used to be here once. This is the police station and

11 the firemen's building, private home, a restaurant Nale was here.

12 This was the post office, and that road between the post office and

13 the cinema building, and then again a small road. These were largely

14 business and office premises. An old post office building. We called

15 this "the garden".

16 These houses, there were mostly some offices there and shops.

17 This is old mezarje. A road leading to Paratvsici. This is a part

18 of old mezarje. This is the mosque in Mutnic, the principal mosque.

19 Q. How old was that mosque, sir?

20 A. As far as I have heard, about 300 years. This is on the other side

21 of the same Marsala Tita street from the principal mosque, but on the

22 other side. This is again mezarje, small, old, this was the old

23 elementary school. Here there were some business premises, small

24 ones. This bigger building is the building which housed the local

25 commune and the youth club, a small road. This was the small iron

1 works or, rather, the iron mongers. Another shop, this is a coffee

2 shop, a pub. This is shoemakers, another shoemaker.

3 One of the new, the newest building in Kozarac, we called it

4 the "bank" building. This part down here, there are some shops,

5 private homes. A small shop here and there. These are again

6 residential, private buildings. This is a house and Oaza, Oaza's

7 which was a coffee shop, a pub. Private, residential houses,

8 residential houses. A small building and a road between them, then

9 another one with barbers, chemists. I think a textile shop was there.

10 This is a school. (redacted)

11 (redacted). This road leads to Kozarusa. These are again residential

12 houses with offices and shops.

13 This building here was the old hospital we had. (redacted)

14 (redacted), the house belonging to Bozo Dragicevic and his family.

15 Q. You mentioned that the church was to the left. If we could run the

16 video maybe it will proceed in that direction.

17 A. (redacted), Bozo Dragicevic's house. Then down the

18 street, the soccer field used to be. This is a shop, and a private

19 residential house, another residential house.

20 Q. This road leads in what direction?

21 A. This road leads to the hospital, to Kamicani -- sorry, towards the --

22 to the church, to the church to Kamicani. This is the church.

23 Q. This is the Serbian orthodox church?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. If we could stop it there? Thank you. Sir, during the course of

1 viewing and describing those portions of the video, you showed us

2 (redacted) the (redacted) house and cafe of Dusko Tadic. (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 A. (redacted).

5 Q. Did you know Dusko Tadic before the war?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How did you first get to know him?

8 A. Well, as I was a boy still, I saw him coach karate and training in

9 our soccer field. It is called karate. That is, he executed karate

10 blows and that was how I first saw him, how I met him first.

11 Q. You said you were a boy at that time?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you have any friends who later trained with Dusko Tadic?

14 A. Yes, I did have friends who were trained by Dusko Tadic.

15 Q. Did you go with your friends to observe the training and sometimes

16 participate in it?

17 A. I went to see the trainings. I did not take part in those courses

18 directly.

19 Q. Did Dusko Tadic sometimes demonstrate karate moves for you and other

20 people who were gathered there?

21 A. He did.

22 Q. At that time did you and other kids your age regard him as a sort of

23 local idol?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. As you grew older, about four or five years before the war, did you

1 begin to socialise with Dusko Tadic?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you have drinks together at cafes?

4 A. Well, drinks, the answer is yes.

5 Q. Over time did you begin to associate more with him, (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. (redacted)

9 A. (redacted).

10 Q. (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 A. (redacted)

13 Q. Around that time were you and any other friends associating

14 frequently with Dusko Tadic?

15 A. (redacted).

16 Q. (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 A. (redacted)

19 Q. How often would you see him?

20 A. Well, almost daily.

21 Q. Did you see his family?

22 A. I did. (redacted).

23 Q. (redacted)

24 A. (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted).

2 Q. (redacted), did Dusko Tadic begin to build his own

3 cafe?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you discuss that with him and offer him suggestions?

6 A. Yes. Yes.

7 Q. (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 A. (redacted).

10 Q. (redacted)

11 A. (redacted)

12 Q. Were you a regular guest in his cafe?

13 A. I was.

14 Q. How often would you be there?

15 A. Every day sometimes, sometimes once a day or twice a day or three

16 times a day, depending on the situation and on my frequent time.

17 Q. Did you know any of Dusko Tadic's friends?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. For example, did you know Emir Karabasic?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. Did Dusko Tadic and Emir Karabasic appear to be close?

22 A. Yes, they did.

23 Q. Did they have any sports relationship?

24 A. They socialised, yes, also regarding sports. As I could see them,

25 Dusko Tadic and Emir Karabasic, Emir Karabasic was as Dusko Tadic's

1 brother, a family member.

2 Q. Was Emir Karabasic also involved in karate?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did they train together?

5 A. Sometimes.

6 Q. Did you also know Jasko Hrnic?

7 A. I did.

8 Q. Was Jasko Hrnic a friend of Emir Karabasic or Dusko Tadic?

9 A. First of all, Jasko Hrnic was Emir Karabasic's friend, and Emir

10 Karabasic was socializing more with Dusko Tadic, so there were cases

11 that they were all together, because in my town everybody knew

12 everyone.

13 Q. (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 A. (redacted)

17 Q. At some point before the conflict, did you begin to notice whether

18 more Serbs were beginning to frequent his cafe?

19 A. Yes, I could notice that.

20 Q. Who were some of the local Serbs, that is, Serbs from Kozarac, who

21 began to frequent the cafe?

22 A. Those that I know were Goran Borovnica, Cico, Tepo, Tepo Vidovic,

23 Cico's surname is also Vidovic, and some others whose name I cannot

24 really tell, but they were also from the same part as the Vidovic

25 people.

1 Q. Did more and more Serbs from outside Kozarac also begin to frequent

2 the cafe?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Generally, when would you see them at the cafe?

5 A. Usually once after, after hours, after the closing time of the cafe,

6 or just before the closing of the cafe, but otherwise the cafe

7 sometimes worked until the morning.

8 Q. Did you sometimes stay at the cafe until dawn?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How did these Serbs from outside Kozarac dress?

11 A. Just before the war they would come dressed very inadequately;

12 moreover, they were dressed in some duke type of coats. They were

13 armed. Some of them, moreover, showed badges and this Kokarda, it is

14 called.

15 Q. The duke or vojvoda coats you mentioned and the Kokarda, are those

16 symbols of Serb nationalism?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did the Serbs from outside the area also indicate or exhibit any

19 other signs of Serb nationalism while at the cafe?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did they sing Chetnik songs?

22 A. They did.

23 Q. You indicated that they were armed. Did they display their weapons?

24 A. Yes, they did. I cannot tell that each and everyone did it, but some

25 of them did.

1 Q. How many of these Serb nationalists from outside would be at the cafe

2 at any one time?

3 A. It all depended really, different from one night to the other, but

4 the highest number would be some 30 people sometimes.

5 Q. How many Muslims were generally there?

6 A. Sometimes it was just me, sometimes this friend of mine, (redacted)

7 (redacted), and nobody else in this very late night hours.

8 Q. Were the conversations among the Serbs from outside and the local

9 Serbs completely open, that is, open to you as well?

10 A. No, not generally, they were not open, but they were open up until

11 the moment when the person who would open this type, who started this

12 open type of discussion would learn that I and my friend were of

13 Muslim religion. That is how I saw things, because after that simply

14 the subject would be dropped and one of the signs they would give

15 would be showing sort of slightly with their hands or winking or

16 giving some kind of unnoticeable sign.

17 Q. Did you become uncomfortable as the only Muslim under these

18 circumstances?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Was there a particular occasion which made you decide against

21 continuing your frequenting of the cafe?

22 A. The situation was that at that time I tried to come less to his cafe,

23 but personally I did not want that my not going to the cafe to

24 represent some kind of an incident that could provoke further

25 incidents.

1 Q. Was there an occasion on which a well-known singer Zeljko Bebek was

2 at the cafe?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was that another late night get-together, after hours get-together at

5 the cafe?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How was Bebek dressed on that occasion?

8 A. He also had this vojvoda, this duke type coat, only over his

9 soldiers, and on his head he wore what one would call a fur cap. It

10 also had the Kokarda on this fur cap.

11 Q. Did Bebek seem relaxed and happy to be there?

12 A. As I see it, he was extremely excited. He did not feel comfortable

13 because of all that.

14 Q. Were there Serbs there that night who did not know you were Muslim?

15 A. Yes, I saw some new people.

16 Q. What kinds of things were said about Muslims during the course of the

17 evening?

18 A. One of the things was, "We are going to kill all the balijas, fuck

19 the balija's mother" -- very, very brutal things.

20 Q. Was there talk about SDS?

21 A. Yes, also -- and there was also their sign of raising three finger.

22 That was shown quite a lot around.

23 Q. Was there singing that night?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What kinds of songs?

1 A. We called them Serb songs, Chetnik songs.

2 Q. Did anyone in the cafe appear to be the leader of the group?

3 A. Personally, yes, I think yes.

4 Q. Who appeared to be the leader?

5 A. I think that was the owner of the cafe, Dusko Tadic.

6 Q. What sorts of things indicated to you that he was regarded as a

7 leader among those people?

8 A. Some of the examples, usually when one drinks the glasses were turned

9 towards Dusko Tadic, raised towards him. A second example, there were

10 always some kind of whispers, all these people were whispering

11 something to him.

12 Q. You indicated earlier your concern about withdrawing from your

13 contact at the cafe too quickly for fear of creating an incident. On

14 that occasion did you leave as soon as the Chetnik songs started or

15 you heard the threats and slurs against Muslims?

16 A. I tried to leave that company, but I was not allowed to, sort of,

17 "Well, drink another round".

18 Q. After that occasion, did you begin to decrease your contact at the

19 cafe?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you finally stop frequenting the cafe?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 A. (redacted)

1 (redacted)

2 Q. Sir, can you look around the courtroom and tell me if you see Dusko

3 Tadic here in court today?

4 A. Yes, I can.

5 Q. Where is he sitting and what is he wearing?

6 MR. KAY: Can I raise one matter here because it is a dock identification

7 procedure that my learned friend is attempting to bring into the

8 proceedings? That is a specific type of identification procedure

9 about which the Defence would be very concerned if it was to be used

10 as a part of the proceedings in this case. It is quite apparent to

11 everyone in this room that Mr. Tadic is on trial, where he is sitting,

12 and what he is wearing. For the Prosecution to use it as a form of

13 adducing evidence before the Tribunal, in my submission, is not

14 desirable and it is something to which we object.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Would you like to respond, Mr. Tieger?

16 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, a couple of responses. First of all, this is

17 not an in court ID or an identification I believe in the sense that

18 counsel is referring. This a witness who knows the accused and is

19 simply pointing out his presence in court. In that respect, the

20 evidence can be used by the court for its appropriate purpose as the

21 court wishes. Certainly, a clear foundation has been laid for the

22 recognition by this witness. There may be occasions in other witnesses

23 when this objection needs to be more thoroughly explored, but I think

24 this is a situation in which the acknowledgment of that recognition is

25 perfectly appropriate.

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I will overrule your objection. I think it goes to

2 the weight. It is very typical, of course, in my system; it is done

3 all of the time. As you have indicated, the Defence is sitting there,

4 but that really goes to the weight. I am sure that there will be other

5 evidence of identification outside of the courtroom, so I will

6 overrule your objection, Mr. Kay.

7 MR. KAY: One of the reasons for bringing it, of course, is this witness

8 says he knew and recognised the defendant, so I do not really see the

9 point of it, if he knew -----

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: How are you prejudiced if he knew and recognised the

11 defendant, and then they wished to say (and it seems to me that that

12 is the proper foundation), then the next step is: "Do you see that

13 person whom you say you knew and recognised?"

14 MR. KAY: It is a question of the point of the evidence in itself, what is

15 it being used for?

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Identification purposes, to confirm that the person

17 he knew outside of the courtroom is in the courtroom. I will overrule

18 your objection once again.

19 MR. KAY: Yes. I am not arguing against, your Honour, because there is a

20 point at some stage when it may well be that there has to be

21 submissions on this form of procedure.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We are not at that point yet. I will overrule your

23 objection again.

24 JUDGE STEPHEN: I think I would like to say that, as a general form of

25 identification, I think it is inappropriate; I think in this case it

1 is perfectly acceptable in view of the foundation laid.

2 MR. KAY: I think I understand what is being said by the court.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: If there was no other prior identification, then

4 just to look at Mr. Tadic and see that he is sitting in the dock, of

5 course, would be very prejudicial, but this witness has said he has

6 know him before, he worked with him, he socialised with him. That is

7 a way for him to confirm the fact that the knowledge that he gained

8 outside of this courtroom is confirmed in the presence of this

9 courtroom. So once again I will overrule your objection.

10 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): Sir, again if you can point out where Dusko

11 Tadic is sitting and what is he wearing?

12 A. This is the gentleman sitting between two policemen. What is he

13 wearing? He is a wearing a suit, a tie, a shirt.

14 Q. Thank you, sir.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The record will reflect that this witness has

16 identified the accused in this case.

17 MR. TIEGER: Now, based on your association with Dusko Tadic over the

18 years, did you come to know his physical appearance, his mannerisms,

19 his silhouette, his way of walking and so on?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did he have a distinctive way of walking or carrying himself?

22 A. As I see it, yes.

23 Q. Can you describe that?

24 A. Well, he looked as a man who was very full of himself. He always

25 held his head up high and usually his hands were in his pockets or

1 somewhere there. That is how I see him, more or less. I cannot

2 really describe everything. I mean, his movements, he had very

3 characteristic long strides.

4 Q. Did he sometimes have a beard?

5 A. Yes, sometimes yes, sometimes no.

6 Q. Do you know, for example, whether he had a beard shortly before the

7 war, for example, a month before the war?

8 A. Yes, I know.

9 Q. Do you know whether or not he had a beard immediately before the war,

10 that is, the day before the war?

11 A. The day before the war I did not see him, but some four or five days

12 before the war he had a beard.

13 Q. You also mentioned that Goran Borovnica was a frequent visitor to the

14 cafe?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Was he from Kozarac?

17 A. Yes, he was. He was also from the main street.

18 Q. Did you know him?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. Was there anything unusual about Goran Borovnica's physical

21 appearance?

22 A. He had some problems with his eyesight.

23 Q. Was it reflected in the appearance of his eyes?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What was unusual about the appearance of his eyes?

1 A. One eye, one eye was going more towards one side, was looking more to

2 one side than it is normal.

3 Q. When the war in Croatia began did Goran Borovnica go to fight?

4 A. As far as I know, yes.

5 Q. What was he like when he returned?

6 A. He was only creating problems. He is a man who was always seeking

7 trouble.

8 Q. Do you recall any particular incidents which illustrate that?

9 A. One of those was when on a day he was drunk and he had a scorpion

10 pistol on him. He was insulting whoever he knew and whoever he could

11 see on the street. He was swearing. He was saying many brutal

12 things. That was the incident.

13 Q. Did some people attempt to control or disarm him?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Were they able to do so?

16 A. They disarmed him, but somehow he ran away from them. He was

17 swearing. He said, "Fuck your balija's mother. We are going to kill

18 you all, you Muslims".

19 Q. Sir, I would like to bring your attention to the period of time

20 between the takeover of Prijedor and the attack on Kozarac. Were

21 Muslims able to travel frequently during that time?

22 A. Just before the war, no. Some 20 days before.

23 Q. (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 A. (redacted).

1 Q. Did you attempt to travel to Prijedor (redacted) after the

2 takeover?

3 A. Yes. Yes.

4 Q. Was there a Serbian checkpoint on the road between Kozarac and

5 Prijedor?

6 A. There was.

7 Q. Where was that?

8 A. It was at the Orlovci bus station.

9 Q. Can you describe the nature of the checkpoint?

10 A. If we head for Prijedor from Kozarac, on one side as I would come

11 there were hedgehogs, two of them, along the line where vehicles move,

12 and on this side there were two uniformed persons of Serb ethnic

13 origin and, of course, they stopped me. They asked me where I was

14 going, why, where. They took my car papers, my IDs, and let me go.

15 But I knew those people. Then as I went toward Prijedor, I went

16 around that hedgehog and it was -- and there was another one like it

17 some 20 to 30 metres on the other side of the road towards Prijedor.

18 There there were also two policemen.

19 Q. You have mentioned "hedgehogs". Perhaps you can describe exactly

20 what that is?

21 A. Well, it is roughly as two planks crossed on both sides and they are

22 linked and there is a barbed wired all around these planks. This

23 hedgehog, the barbed wired is wound between these two wooden planks

24 crossed, and it would be about 1 metre 20 long.

25 Q. You indicated that you knew the Serbs at the checkpoint and they

1 allowed you to pass. Were other Muslims forbidden to pass?

2 A. For some, yes, for others, no. It depended on who knew whom at the

3 time.

4 Q. Did Muslims dare to travel at night?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did there come a point when you no longer attempted or dared to

7 travel to Prijedor any longer?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Approximately when was that?

10 A. I should say about seven days prior to.

11 Q. At that point were all exits from the area closed off for Muslims?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did some Muslims try to escape the area, nevertheless?

14 A. They did. I am sorry, yes, they did try.

15 Q. Was it dangerous to do so, to make that attempt?

16 A. Yes, it was very dangerous.

17 Q. Did it require any special efforts to try to get out?

18 A. To begin with, yes, one had to know or have a Serb friend who one

19 would pay to get out of Kozarac and go further on to Banja Luka and

20 out, out of Kozarac.

21 Q. Even with money and with connections, was it still risky and often

22 unsuccessful to attempt to leave?

23 A. Primarily, it was dangerous, it was hazardous for men, for men of

24 age.

25 Q. By that time had the television programming available changed?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was there any particular incident which brought that to your

3 attention?

4 A. Yes, something very funny happened. It was, I do not know his family

5 name, but it was a guy who caused the incident was called Mirko -- he

6 is a Serb, by the way -- he simply went home, switched on his TV set

7 and wanted to watch it. Then he changed to Belgrade 1, Belgrade 2;

8 the third channel that we had was radio Banja Luka, Serb Krajina.

9 There were no more channels. At that moment he took that TV set and as

10 he lived in a building -- we called it a restaurant -- he got that

11 TV set and threw it down from his balcony and said something like: "I

12 fuck your Serb mother; can I not watch anything here, only Serb

13 programmes there are".

14 Q. During this period of time between the takeover of Prijedor and the

15 attack on Kozarac, were you aware of any negotiations between

16 officials from Kozarac and the new Serbian authorities in Prijedor?

17 A. I knew something, that there were some negotiations, but there is a

18 great deal I do not know.

19 Q. Did you know exactly what was being discussed between the authorities

20 from Kozarac and the authorities in Prijedor?

21 A. I was not really very wise to such things.

22 Q. Did local Muslims attempt to guard institutions in Kozarac?

23 A. Yes. Yes.

24 Q. Which institutions were guarded?

25 A. Some of the institutions that were guarded were the building of the

1 local commune, the post office, the cinema, the hospital, the church.

2 That would be that, more or less.

3 Q. What was the purpose of guarding these institutions?

4 A. The purpose of that all was roughly not to make an incident, and not

5 to relate it to the Muslims, that the Muslims might be threatening

6 Serbs in that part.

7 Q. Were the guards at those institutions prepared to respond to any

8 attack?

9 A. Come on, they could not because there were children by and large

10 standing guard there -- if we may call them "guards".

11 Q. When did the guarding of these institutions begin?

12 A. I cannot remember exactly, but I should say to my mind some 15 to 20

13 days before the attack.

14 Q. Were any checkpoints also set up?

15 A. Checkpoints were not put up. We always had those sentry, those

16 watcher posts, what a checkpoint -- a checkpoint, what it should look

17 like. There would be a few men who wanted to have a night out. They

18 would make a barbecue, drink a bottle or two of Slivovitz or cognac

19 or, I do not know, beer or some other liquor. It was mostly for the

20 sake of company, to party, rather than to do something else.

21 Q. Did you participate in any of these guardings of the institutions?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How did you get involved?

24 A. My neighbour told me that he went there himself. He said: "Why do

25 you not join us for the sake of company?" That is how it started.

1 Q. Did you and the other guards give yourselves a name?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What was it you called yourselves?

4 A. "Green Berets".

5 Q. Why was that name selected?

6 A. Well, perhaps because what television showed the Serbs would say,

7 "those killed by Green Berets". We felt that they feared the name

8 itself. That is how the name came about.

9 Q. What institution did you guard?

10 A. The hospital.

11 Q. How many people guarded with you?

12 A. It depended on the night.

13 Q. How much would the numbers vary?

14 A. About 25, 30, would be the largest number that would come to that

15 guarding post. During a night, four or five, depending on the mood

16 and, as I have said, depending on the barbecue and plum brandy.

17 Q. Exactly how disciplined or organised were these guard duties?

18 A. Would you please repeat the question?

19 Q. Certainly. How disciplined or organised were these guard duties?

20 A. They were not disciplined guards. I do not think so, nor were they

21 organised. I do not know exactly if they were organised. I cannot

22 answer that exactly, but I do not think so.

23 Q. Did you sometimes visit other posts where there were guards?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you do that to check on them for disciplinary reasons, or to

1 visit with them socially?

2 A. Just to socialise with them because at that post where I was, there

3 was nothing, a nice feast, and I went to another place to see how it

4 was there, to see my friends, to cut the time short.

5 Q. Were any of the guards at the hospital armed?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How many?

8 A. As a matter of fact, there were some weapons which were always the

9 same. People changed sometimes, but weapons remained the same.

10 Q. What weapons were those?

11 A. Those were pistols and hunting rifles.

12 Q. Did you bring any arms to the guard post?

13 A. No.

14 Q. How were you dressed when you would guard?

15 A. Normally as a civilian, like this.

16 Q. Were you or any of the other people at the guard posts successful in

17 stopping any attempted provocations?

18 A. Yes, not I personally, but some others did succeed to stop

19 provocation.

20 Q. Where was this? Where was the attempted provocation?

21 A. That attempted provocation was the church put on fire.

22 Q. Where were you when that incident happened?

23 A. At the time I was at a guarding post next to the hospital.

24 Q. How far is that from the church?

25 A. About 200 metres, I should say.

1 Q. Did the guards from the church bring to your attention immediately

2 what had happened there?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Were they still excited or scared when they talked to you?

5 A. Oh, yes, they were scared.

6 Q. What had happened at the church that night?

7 A. The story that the guards who were down there told us was more or

8 less as follows: As they were sitting at that guarding post near the

9 church or, rather, on the other side of the fence, they heard steps

10 and they took a closer look towards to where they thought they had

11 heard those steps. Then they saw Mr. Tadic -----

12 MR. KAY: Your Honours, might I raise an objection at this stage? It is

13 an important matter because it is concerned with hearsay. We are

14 dealing now with an account given to this witness by other people

15 making an allegation against the defendant Tadic. There are levels of

16 hearsay that, perhaps, the court might well accept and admit in

17 evidence to enable the flow of the proceedings and because we are not

18 bound by the usual form of rules, but our submission is that there

19 comes a stage when evidence is important relating to the

20 determination of the issues in this case when there must be some

21 security to the Defence as to the substantial prejudice to be caused

22 by using hearsay from other people. We are now for the first time

23 dealing with, perhaps, evidence that directly concerns allegations

24 within the indictment against the defendant. The Prosecution have

25 chosen to rely upon evidence through this witness that is given by him

1 because he was told by others as to what took place. This, as the

2 court will appreciate, is a matter of great concern to us.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger?

4 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, first of all, as counsel pointed out, this is,

5 indeed, evidence and, as the Tribunal Statute properly recognises,

6 this Tribunal sits with judges, experienced judges, who are capable of

7 determining the weight to be given evidence and not to ignore the

8 circumstances in which it occurred.

9 Even under the system I come from, which is a restrictive

10 hearsay system, subject to criticism because it keeps out evidence on

11 occasion that should be heard, this evidence would come in as a

12 spontaneous utterance, an excited utterance. That is because it is

13 reliable. It just happened these people were excited, they related it

14 immediately. All evidence has potential vulnerabilities, whatever it

15 might be, but the court is fully capable of gauging those and giving

16 the evidence the weight to which it is entitled.

17 This is evidence which would be heard even in the most

18 restrictive jurisdictions, should certainly be heard by the judges of

19 this Tribunal under a more expansive Statute which says, in essence,

20 it is important to hear the available evidence. We are in a position

21 to judge its reliability and the weight it should be given in the

22 context of all the evidence heard, and for that reason this evidence

23 certainly should come in. I would argue that there is no need for a

24 piece of evidence to fall strictly within an exception to an existing

25 hearsay rule; and certainly when it does, the evidence should be

1 heard.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We have said before, I suppose, that we do not have

3 a hearsay rule. For your information, it might be helpful to you,

4 lawyers -- I do not think that I am speaking out of school and I ask

5 my fellow judges to correct me if I am wrong -- as you know, the

6 Judges drafted these rules and in the drafting process there was much

7 discussion about the evidence rules and we have 10 rules of evidence.

8 I come from a jurisdiction where hearsay is a factor in

9 trials; Judge Stephen and Judge Vohrah also come from a system where

10 hearsay is a factor in trials. In my system, we have 24 or 28

11 exceptions to hearsay, so that although hearsay is not admissible, it

12 becomes admissible even though it is hearsay if it fits within these

13 exceptions. I do not know about Judge Vohrah or Judge Stephen.

14 The whole point, though, of the exceptions relates to our

15 system in that evidence regarding statements that are made other than

16 while the declarer is testifying before the court comes in if the

17 court considers it is reliable, if it is probative. So that our Rule,

18 even though the Rule does not specifically deal with hearsay, we have

19 this probative requirement; so that in drafting the Rules, we will

20 admit evidence that has probative value, "probative" meaning tending

21 to support the fact for which it is admitted. I will need to look up

22 the definition again.

23 During our discussions, judges expressed different views

24 about how evidence should come in. We have looked at the views

25 expressed, particularly by we three Judges. So I will overrule your

1 objection and I am overruling it again because we are a special

2 Tribunal. We only have 10 rules of evidence. We are focusing on

3 probative value. It is certainly relevant in terms of its

4 probativeness. At least myself, I would revert to what Mr. Tieger has

5 just said, that is, even in, and probably the United States is the

6 most restrictive system, we have what is called an excited utterance;

7 the theory being that in a state of excitement people are unlikely to

8 fabricate because they are speaking spontaneously and under

9 circumstances that would not give them the opportunity with design to

10 tell a lie.

11 That is the thought behind the exception but, thank goodness,

12 we are not in the United States. My students say all the time when

13 they find out that we only have 10 rules of evidence, they say:

14 "Wonderful! We take a course that takes three hours, you know, just

15 studying evidence".

16 It is a judge trial. We will listen to it as it comes in. We

17 will give it the weight that should be accorded, and keep in mind we

18 also have a Rule that allows us to strike testimony if it turns out

19 that even though it has probative value, it is substantially

20 outweighed by the need to afford the accused with a fair trial. That

21 is a very potent Rule that we have and one that we, Judges, can use in

22 assessing the evidence in its entirety.

23 So, I will overrule your objection.

24 JUDGE STEPHEN: I am sorry, I want to say this. I agree with what the

25 President has said, subject to this, that it would be much more

1 probative if we knew something about the person who conveyed this.

2 Was he drunk? Sober? A child? We have heard that many were mere

3 children. Did he know Tadic? Those sorts of things, obviously, go to

4 the weight. At this moment we know nothing other than they were

5 people.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: In my system, what you would do would be to take the

7 witness on the voir dire and ask these, but perhaps not in Judge

8 Stephen's or in Judge Vohrah's. But at this point I overrule your

9 objection once again. You may proceed. You will have a chance in

10 cross-examination to test it. You can also at the conclusion of the

11 cross-examination move that it be stricken.

12 MR. KAY: The point I am making, and I am conscious of the res gestae

13 rule, which is what we call it within our jurisdiction, is to perhaps

14 alert the Bench as well to something like this and the concerns that

15 we would have, and failure to do so might prejudice our position. I

16 am sure the court would understand that.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No, I appreciate you are serving your client well

18 and you are obligated to make the objections. In our system at least,

19 once the Judge rules on the objection, then that ends the matter and

20 then we go forward.

21 MR. KAY: Yes.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may proceed, Mr. Tieger.

23 MR. TIEGER: Thank you. (To the witness): Sir, I am sorry, I do not

24 recall where you were in your description of what you were told

25 happened at the church, but if you can either pick it up at the

1 beginning or where you believe you left off?

2 A. I stopped when men who were there on their guard duties saw Mr. Dusko

3 Tadic walking towards the church, carrying a canister. As a matter of

4 fact, he was very near the church, some five or six metres away, as

5 they told us. They got scared then because they were children, one

6 might say, of 16, 17, 18 years of age. How the things developed then,

7 he also got scared because he heard there was somebody there; he

8 probably did not expect anyone to be there. So that Dusko Tadic fled

9 from the church, and those other people also fled away from the

10 church, from the place where they had been. But those people who were

11 by the church felt that he himself had got scared and shouted, made a

12 lot of noise after him and, sort of, tried to run after him but that

13 was of no use.

14 Later on, it was learned that he had been carrying a canister

15 of fuel with him. Why, what did he intend to use it for, we all can

16 guess, but I think he wanted to create an incident to set the church

17 on fire and say that the Muslims had done it, whereas in fact they did

18 not.

19 Q. Did you know the young men who were guarding the hospital -- I am

20 sorry, excuse me, your Honour. Did you know the young men who were

21 guarding the church?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. Were they from Kozarac?

24 A. Yes, they were from Kozarac.

25 Q. From what part of Kozarac?

1 A. It is exactly, if I may say so, a block which borders on the high

2 street (redacted), standing towards the centre of Kozarac towards

3 Mrakovica, to the first road to the right where there is a road

4 leading to the hospital, and that road then makes a semicircle and

5 descends directly to the church. Again, there is a junction with

6 another road which on one side leads to Kamicani and the other towards

7 Marsala Tita Street. The rest of the -- the remaining part of the

8 road, as I imagine, as I am saying that there were people from that

9 part, goes from the church down that same road towards Marsala Tita

10 Street. That was the area from which people who guarded the church

11 and the hospital came from.

12 Q. Were they (redacted) neighbours of Dusko Tadic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did they know him?

15 A. 100 per cent.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I did not get that.

17 MR. TIEGER: I am sorry, your answer, sir, was? We did not hear it?

18 A. Sure, 100 per cent they knew him.

19 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would be presenting an exhibit, a map, which

20 might aid the witness's description of the area, but in view of the

21 hour, perhaps you want me to wait?

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, I think we will stand in recess, 180, the film.

23 195? Do you wish to admit 195?

24 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

1 MR. TIEGER: But I should mention that on that same tape there is

2 additional footage including footage of Keraterm which the Defence has

3 seen in its entirety. This is a small excerpt of that. So there is

4 additional footage including the hospital, a small portion of the main

5 street in Kozarac and the Keraterm footage.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Have the Defence seen the entirety of 195?

7 MR. WLADIMIROFF: We have, so no objection.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. 195 will be admitted. We will stand in

9 recess for 20 minutes.

10 (11.30 a.m.)

11 (The court adjourned for a short time)

12 (11.55 a.m.)

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, you may continue.

14 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. Can we have this document presented

15 as Exhibit 196 for identification, please? (Document was handed to

16 the witness) (To the witness): Sir, do you recognise Exhibit 196 as

17 a map depicting portions of Kozarac?

18 A. Yes. Yes.

19 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would tender 196 for admission.

20 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 196 will be admitted.

22 MR. TIEGER: I do not know if it will be easier to follow on the screen or

23 with these copies, but I would like to present them to the court.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Maybe we will do both if the witness needs to point

25 out anything.

1 MR. TIEGER: Can that be raised slightly? (To the witness): (redacted),

2 (redacted) Can you

3 show us where Marsala Tita Street is?

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, I do not mean to interrupt but just for

5 record purposes, did the witness mean to point to (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. That is a good point.

8 (To the witness): (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 A. (redacted)

11 Q. (redacted)

12 -----

13 A. This is the school.

14 Q. OK. As we move up Marsala Tita, what is that next shaded box

15 (redacted), what does that represent?

16 A. This is the family home of Mr. Dusko Tadic and his cafe, Nipon, which

17 is a part of it.

18 Q. Where is the hospital located?

19 A. (Indicated).

20 Q. And the church?

21 A. (Indicated).

22 Q. And the mosque we saw in the video?

23 A. (Indicated).

24 Q. The mosque is the shaded box expressly marked "mosque"?

25 A. Yes.

1 JUDGE STEPHEN: Can I ask you a question? The name of the street that, in

2 fact, is Marshal Tito, is it?

3 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour. If we could call up 432 on the computer

4 screen, please? That will be 4/32. Maybe another way to do this

5 would be to -- sir, do you recognise what this picture depicts?

6 A. Yes, I recognise this picture. (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted).

9 Q. Looking to the extreme left of the screen, as the road proceeds at an

10 angle towards the right, what street is that? I am sorry, that may be

11 confusing. (redacted)

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. This is looking at Marsala Tita Street, in what direction?

14 A. Exactly it is looking on the side; when you are going on the Marsala

15 Tita Street, where the junction Prijedor/Banja Luka is, and then the

16 street shows the left-hand side of the Marsala Tita Street towards

17 Mrakovica.

18 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I have the original photograph which I would

19 like to tender for admission. I can either show it directly to the

20 witness again or indicate that the photograph on the screen is taken

21 from this original.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you have the photo, Mr. Wladimiroff?

23 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Why do you not show it to the witness, let him

25 confirm that it is what is on the video screen and then show it to Mr.

1 Wladimiroff?

2 THE WITNESS: Yes.

3 MR. TIEGER: Is that the same picture that is shown on the screen?

4 A. Yes, it is.

5 MR. TIEGER: We will tender that for admission then, your Honour.

6 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 197 will be admitted.

8 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I take it that the Prosecution will serve the Defence

9 with a still of the video?

10 MR. TIEGER: Yes, we will. Your Honour, I would like to have this

11 presented to the witness as Exhibit 198 for identification. If I can

12 indicate, these are all photographs which the Defence has had an

13 opportunity to see but, I presume, has not copied. (To the witness):

14 Sir, do you recognise what this photo depicts?

15 A. Yes, I recognise it.

16 Q. What is that?

17 A. (redacted)

18 (redacted) is the Stevo

19 Dragicevic; and then on the right-hand side of the Marsala Tita Street

20 -----

21 Q. Excuse me, before you describe it further, if I may? I would tender

22 that for admission then and ask that 7/27 be called on the screen?

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff, would you like to take a look at

24 198 and see what it is?

25 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes, your Honour.

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Usher, would you retrieve this exhibit and give

2 it to Mr. Wladimiroff?

3 MR. WLADIMIROFF: We have no objection. I have seen it on the screen now.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. 198 will be admitted and a copy provided

5 to the Defence.

6 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 A. (redacted).

9 Q. This time the picture is looking in what direction?

10 A. We are now looking in the direction of the junction, the

11 Prijedor/Banja Luka junction, and in the direction of Trnopolje.

12 Q. The portion of the road which curves to the left between the white

13 car and the white building, does that go toward the church?

14 A. Yes, it does.

15 Q. (redacted)

16 A. (redacted).

17 Q. If I could have this photograph presented to the witness and marked

18 as Exhibit 199 for identification? (Exhibit 199 was handed to the

19 witness). Could we call up No. 4/30 on the screen, please? Sir, does

20 this photograph depict (redacted) the triangle which

21 you have just referred to?

22 A. It does.

23 MR. TIEGER: I would tender 199 for admission.

24 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 199 will be admitted and a copy provided to the

1 Defence.

2 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): Is the perspective of this photograph

3 looking in the direction of Mrakovica with the photographer's back in

4 the direction of the Prijedor/Banja Luka road?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Sir, before the break we were talking about the period of time

7 between the takeover of Prijedor and the attack on Kozarac. During

8 that time were you aware of a build up of Serbian forces in the area

9 of Kozarac?

10 A. Yes, we knew that. I knew about that.

11 Q. In what areas was there a buildup of troops or equipment?

12 A. Sorry. That area was the area of Markovica; I can personally say

13 some six kilometres into Markovica.

14 Q. Were you and other Muslim residents of the area aware of the war in

15 Croatia and, in general, what was happening in Croatia?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Were the Muslims of Kozarac fearful of an attack by the Serb forces

18 on Kozarac?

19 A. Yes, they were.

20 Q. Did some people purchase weapons?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How were they able to get them?

23 A. Usually, those arms were purchased, bought, from the Serbs. Some

24 Muslims had contacts with them, so they would take these quantities of

25 weapons and, of course, they would sell them later on to Muslims.

1 Q. Were those weapons purchased in order to mount an attack against

2 Serbs?

3 A. No. No, it was not with the objective of an attack, but simply

4 defending one's household.

5 Q. Did you purchase any weapons?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. What did you purchase?

8 A. Two kalashnikovs.

9 Q. Do you remember what day the attack on Kozarac occurred?

10 A. On 24th May 1992, 1.45 p.m.

11 Q. Were the Serb residents of Kozarac still in town?

12 A. They left the night before the town of Kozarac.

13 Q. Where were you on the 24th when the first warning of an attack

14 sounded?

15 A. I was at home. We had a family lunch.

16 Q. What was it you heard that first alerted you to the possibility of

17 attack?

18 A. Before that never had the air siren sounded that way. The siren

19 announced the air attack.

20 Q. What did you do when you heard that siren?

21 A. Normally I stopped lunch, I went into the house. I put on some

22 military boots and military trousers, and a military coat.

23 Q. Why did you put on your military boots, trousers and a military coat?

24 A. I do not know the real reason why a military uniform, but my instinct

25 had told me that it would be the most appropriate uniform for all, for

1 all kinds of weather.

2 Q. Were the boots and coat the best clothes you had for staying

3 outdoors?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What kind of shirt did you have on?

6 A. Normal, civilian shirt.

7 Q. Where had the boots and coat and pants come from?

8 A. I received it as a Reservist of the former JNA, the former Yugoslav

9 People's Army.

10 Q. Where did you go?

11 A. I went towards the road, towards the hospital.

12 Q. Had anyone told you to do that?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did you take any weapons or ammunition with you?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. What did you take?

17 A. I took a kalashnikov and a pistol.

18 Q. Did you go to the hospital?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. Did you and other people there attempt to prepare the hospital for an

21 attack?

22 A. We did.

23 Q. What did you do?

24 A. We took metal boxes where hospital files used to be put, and we

25 aligned them at a spot where there were large windows, window

1 openings.

2 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if I could present this photograph to the

3 witness? It will be Exhibit 200 for identification. If we can call

4 up 5/29 on the screen? (Exhibit 200 was handed to the witness) (To

5 the witness): Sir, does this photograph show the hospital?

6 A. It does.

7 Q. It shows the hospital after the attack on Kozarac?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. TIEGER: I would tender 200 for admission.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

11 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 200 will be admitted and a copy provided to the

13 Defence.

14 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): At the hospital did you hear any

15 announcements on the radio?

16 A. Yes, we did.

17 Q. What was it you heard?

18 A. We heard like this, more or less: "The Muslims, the Muslims, we have

19 got a military convoy that has to go through Kozarac, going from

20 Prijedor towards Banja Luka. Will you let this convoy pass through?"

21 Q. Did they indicate about what time the convoy would be passing

22 through?

23 A. Yes, they did.

24 Q. What time was that?

25 A. Around 2 p.m.

1 Q. Do you know whether or not people gathered along the side of the

2 Prijedor/Banja Luka highway to see if the convoy would pass by?

3 A. Yes, people gathered there.

4 Q. Was that the area where the first shells fell?

5 A. Yes, it was.

6 Q. What happened after the shelling began?

7 A. A general chaos. People were simply running away, looking for the

8 first most appropriate shelter in order to protect themselves from a

9 hazardous hit of one of the mortars or shells or something like that.

10 Q. Were you eventually able to determine whether the shelling was coming

11 from several directions?

12 A. Not in the first moment. I really speak in my own name, I could not,

13 but later on I could.

14 Q. How many different directions did you determine the shelling was

15 coming from?

16 A. From four directions.

17 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, perhaps we could call up Exhibit 79? It might

18 make it easier for the witness. Can that be placed on the screen,

19 please? (To the witness): Sir, using this map, are you able to show

20 us the areas from which the shelling was coming?

21 A. Whether I can -- can I please come a bit more near the map because I

22 cannot see it quite well on this?

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Move your microphone over a little bit towards you.

24 THE WITNESS: The place I am pointing at the moment, it is the first

25 direction from where Kozarac was shelled. That would be, the place is

1 called Corica Brdo.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We cannot see where you are pointing. That is

3 better. Now we can see. So, for the record, Mr. Tieger, where is

4 that coming from? The one to the left has gone.

5 MR. TIEGER: Sir, if you could just point back to the area referred to as

6 Corica Brdo and we will identify the -- if we could zoom in a bit on

7 that? So that is in the general area which is marked as Gornji

8 Garevci on the map; is that correct?

9 A. It is, it is here, but the real Corica Brdo is not shown on the map.

10 Q. The second location?

11 A. (Indicated).

12 Q. You are pointing to an area which is near the portion of the map

13 marked Babici, between the portion marked Babici and Sadar; is that

14 correct?

15 A. Yes, it is. This is the second location from which Kozarac was

16 attacked.

17 Q. The third location, please?

18 A. (Indicated). I should say that it was from this part here on the

19 map, from the direction of Prijedor, that is, the direction is

20 Prijedor.

21 Q. For the record, it appears you are indicating a general circular area

22 between Grujic, Dosen and Domjanici on the map?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. The fourth direction from which the shelling came?

25 A. Approximately this part and we are now looking towards Omarska.

1 Q. The general section of the map where your pointer is appears to be in

2 the area of Vrhovci, Obradavici and something written below Obradavici

3 which begins "Jago"; is that correct?

4 A. Yes, it is correct, but I cannot name a place exactly because I am

5 talking about the direction, the direction from Kozarac towards

6 Omarska, and also the direction of from Kozarac towards Babici,

7 towards that part. I would not know exactly, but that is the

8 direction and the first one, Corica Brdo, and the second one which was

9 from the Prijedor side.

10 Q. Thank you. How long did this shelling continue that day?

11 A. That day it lasted from the moment it began. It was very intensive

12 until about 6.00 or 7.00 in the evening. Later on there was more

13 fire, but the intensity was not as high as during this first period.

14 Q. Did you leave the hospital at any point to check, to see how your

15 family was?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. About when was that?

18 A. Sometime between 8.00 and 9 o'clock in the evening.

19 Q. Can we see 196 again on the screen? Can I ask you to show us what

20 route you took as you started to go to your home to check on your

21 family?

22 A. (Indicated).

23 Q. First, can you point to where the hospital is?

24 A. (Indicated).

25 Q. What does the dotted line shown on the map indicate?

1 A. It is a small road leading towards houses that were there.

2 Q. Where did you go first?

3 A. I went first from the hospital to a house where people were

4 accommodated from this part, from this area, in a cellar. I went there

5 with a neighbour of mine, (redacted).

6 Q. Where is that house located?

7 A. (Indicated).

8 Q. So about halfway between the hospital and the small road indicated by

9 the dotted line?

10 A. A little higher up towards the hospital, a little closer to the

11 hospital.

12 Q. After stopping at that house, did you then proceed (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 A. Yes, I did. We went off together, this friend of mine and I.

15 Q. As the two of you proceeded (redacted), did you become aware

16 of other people in the area?

17 A. Yes, we felt someone.

18 Q. After you sensed someone in the area, did you then look to see who

19 might be there?

20 A. We had just halted by the house (redacted), and there we

21 sensed some people or, rather, we sensed two men. Those two men that

22 we sensed were Mr. Tadic and Mr. Bosko Dragicevic.

23 Q. After initially sensing that someone was there, did you then attempt

24 to see who it was?

25 A. Yes, we did.

1 Q. If you can point to the map, please, approximately where were you

2 when you first felt there was someone in the area?

3 A. (Indicated) It was precisely this corner which I had just shown.

4 Q. Then did you have to move at all before you were able to recognise

5 them?

6 A. No. No, we did not. We saw them jumping over the fence.

7 Q. First of all, what was Mr. Tadic wearing?

8 A. A mottled camouflage uniform, a green one, military, and Bosko

9 Dragicevic likewise.

10 Q. You have already indicated to us how well you knew Mr. Tadic. How

11 well did you know Mr. Dragicevic?

12 A. (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 Q. Were either one of them carrying anything?

15 A. (Answer not audibly translated).

16 Q. I am sorry. I did not get that answer.

17 A. I did not see. I did not see it.

18 Q. Can you show us on the map where Dusko Tadic and Bosko Dragicevic

19 were when you saw them?

20 A. (Indicated). The first thing I showed was the initial place where we

21 saw them, and roughly where they were headed to.

22 Q. What were they doing when you first recognised them?

23 A. They were just crossing, jumping over the fence.

24 Q. What is on the other side of that fence?

25 A. There is or, rather, two private houses in a line, in one direction.

1 Q. And beyond those houses?

2 A. There are gardens.

3 Q. You indicated it was sometime toward the evening. Was there enough

4 light for you to recognise both of them?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. After they jumped over the fence, did you remain in the area?

7 A. We stayed for two or three minutes more because they immediately

8 moved between those two houses that I had just mentioned, and headed

9 towards the garden. Then we lost sight, we lost track of them, their

10 faces.

11 Q. What was the next thing that happened?

12 A. The next thing that happened was that we came behind (redacted)

13 house, (redacted), to that corner on the other side of the house.

14 Q. Within a few minutes of seeing Bosko Dragicevic and Dusko Tadic jump

15 over the fence, did you see anything coming from the area where they

16 had gone?

17 A. Yes, we saw tracer bullets fired. It look -- this flare up looked

18 like a small parachute and it lasted for about 30 seconds.

19 Q. Now did you see this coming from the area of private houses or garden

20 where the two of them had gone?

21 A. Yes, from the direction of those gardens, gardens of those houses

22 approximately.

23 Q. The translation says both tracer bullets and flare. Can you describe

24 what it was you saw coming from that area?

25 A. The flare which was fired was fired from the direction of those

1 gardens and in the direction of the hospital. When this flare bursts

2 it releases a small parachute and it lights up the whole area during

3 some 30 seconds. The area is lit up, that part of the area. The

4 light is as strong as daylight almost.

5 Q. Did anything happen after the flare illuminated the area?

6 A. Yes, something happened.

7 Q. What was that?

8 A. After this bullet was fired some three or four minutes later we heard

9 shelling again -- I am sorry -- in my personal view, some four to five

10 shells. Those shells, also in my view because that was very close,

11 fell around the hospital, in the direction of the hospital.

12 Q. Again the translation that was provided for us indicates that "after

13 this bullet was fired". Does that mean after the flare was fired?

14 A. Yes. Yes.

15 Q. Now after the shelling began, did you make your way to your house or

16 did you return to the hospital?

17 A. Returned to the hospital.

18 Q. Did you stay there during the night?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. That next day did the shelling continue?

21 A. A little in the morning hours and it stopped later on.

22 Q. Was the hospital moved from that location?

23 A. Yes, it was.

24 Q. Did you assist in the moving of the hospital from that location to

25 another place?

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. Can you show us on the map presently on the screen, Exhibit 196,

3 where the hospital was moved to?

4 A. (Indicated).

5 Q. For the record, is that the shaded box marked up "Motel"?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What was that location before it became the temporary hospital?

8 A. Sorry, I did not hear the question?

9 Q. Sure. What was that building where the hospital was moved to before

10 it became a temporary hospital?

11 A. It was the so-called Motel Rizvino, privately owned.

12 Q. Did some of the hospital staff remain at the hospital ----

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. --- in Kozarac?

15 A. Yes. Yes.

16 Q. Was that in order to assist any wounded who might appear at the real

17 hospital building?

18 A. Yes, to the new building that housed the hospital.

19 Q. Just to clarify, some of the hospital staff remained at the old

20 hospital building?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you assist in moving wounded people from the old building to the

23 motel?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now that night where did you stay?

1 A. I stayed in the woods.

2 Q. Can you show us on the map the approximate location where you stayed

3 that night?

4 A. (Indicated).

5 Q. That is showing the triangle at the top of the map, is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What is in that area?

8 A. There is a cottage, a private cottage.

9 Q. OK. Used for staying on weekends?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Were there other people from Kozarac in the area of the forest?

12 A. Yes, there were.

13 Q. Did you attempt to estimate the number -- first of all, how many

14 people fled to the forest?

15 A. Many thousands, several thousands.

16 Q. In addition to the thousands in the area, where you were, were there

17 other people who had fled the area in other portions of the forest?

18 A. Yes, they were all around. Some were smaller, some were larger

19 groups of people.

20 Q. That night did you stay in the area or did you attempt to find out

21 what was happening in other portions of the area?

22 A. The remaining part of the forest but in a circle. I went to hear

23 from people whether anything was happening, what they thought. It was

24 my curiosity which drove me round this place which I have just shown.

25 JUDGE STEPHEN: Can I just clarify something? This is the night of the

1 shelling or the following night?

2 MR. TIEGER: I would be happy to ask the witness. (To the witness): Was

3 this the night after -- the night that the attack occurred or the

4 night after the second day?

5 A. The second day of the shelling.

6 Q. The next day, the 26th, did you return to the area of Kozarac?

7 A. I did.

8 Q. Were you trying to find out what had happened to your family?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Into what part of Kozarac did you go?

11 A. I came (redacted) from the

12 direction here from the forest towards Paratusici and then came down

13 towards the old town, so that I came out at the rear of the hospital,

14 the back of the hospital, (redacted)

15 (redacted).

16 Q. What was happening in Kozarac at that time?

17 A. There was chaos that rained in Kozarac. In simplest words, a chaotic

18 situation.

19 Q. Did you see Muslims from the area in town?

20 A. They were, yes. I saw Muslims from all parts of Kozarac who at the

21 time formed columns taking Marsala Tita Street from the direction of

22 Mrakovica towards the centre of Kozarac, that is the junction, the

23 crossroads, Prijedor/Banja Luka/Trnopolje. They reached the triangle

24 and the school (redacted) and from there on they were directed

25 and selected towards the direction first Prijedor and then Trnopolje,

1 Sivci, that part of Kozarac.

2 Q. Who were they directed by?

3 A. The Serb police. The Serb army was directing them, marshalling them

4 which direction to take.

5 Q. Did you see any heavy weaponry or equipment in the area?

6 A. As far as I could see, I saw only a tank.

7 Q. Now at some point did you see any Muslim policemen in the area?

8 A. Yes, I saw them, about 10 of them.

9 Q. Where were they?

10 A. They were at this triangle (redacted). (Indicated).

11 Q. You are indicating the triangle between the square (redacted)

12 (redacted)and the object marked as the school?

13 A. Yes, that is correct.

14 Q. Approximately how many policemen were there?

15 A. Ten.

16 Q. What were they doing when you saw them?

17 A. They were lined up in a line.

18 Q. Were there any Serbs around the Muslim policemen who were lined up in

19 a line?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you know and recognise any of the Serbs who were there with the

22 Muslim policemen?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Who was there?

25 A. One of them was Goran Borovnica and another one was Mr. Tadic and

1 some others.

2 Q. Were Mr. Borovnica or Mr. Tadic or any of the others armed?

3 A. Yes, they were armed.

4 Q. How were they armed?

5 A. Kalashnikovs.

6 Q. Did you know any of the other Serbs who were there other than Mr.

7 Borovnica and Mr. Tadic?

8 A. There were a number of men that I had never seen before as far as I

9 could see at that moment.

10 Q. Did you see any of the Serbs have contact with the Muslim policemen?

11 A. Yes, I saw it.

12 Q. Who was it you saw?

13 A. I saw Mr. Goran Borovnica who hit policeman Alic. I do not know if

14 it was a slap in the face or a fist from the side. He hit him in the

15 head. Then further I saw Mr. Tadic who was as I was looking at that

16 line of policemen. He was in fact the last man in that line and he

17 hit policeman Alic. He struck him a karate below in the leg. As I

18 was watching the police I was facing the police, it was Alic's right

19 leg. Alic stumbled and fell down from that blow. Then Goran

20 Borovnica caught him with the neck with his hand and straightened,

21 pulled him up into that line. I no longer had courage and I left the

22 site from which I had been watching it. More, there around the school

23 park there was a throng of people, men, old people, women, children,

24 all standing waiting for something.

25 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour ----

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Are you moving into another area?

2 MR. TIEGER: No, but I would be running a video at this time and it may be

3 time consuming.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. We will stand in recess until 2.30.

5 (1.00 p.m.)

6 (Luncheon Adjournment)

7

8 (2.30 p.m.) PRIVATE

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, would you continue, please?

10 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour, thank you. I would like to have Exhibit

11 195, the video, shown at take or No. 5 and, Mr. Q, if you can indicate

12 to us at what point, if you see a point, in the video where you

13 recognise the area where the 10 policemen, Mr. Borovnica and Mr. Tadic

14 were and then ask us to stop the video at that point. (The video was

15 played). The section of the video we are looking for is past the

16 portion which depicts the church, also past, as I see on the tape, the

17 portion which depicts the hospital. According to the indication I

18 have, it begins approximately 8.39.

19 A. Please stop.

20 Q. OK. Although I know that the image is rather unclear as it is in a

21 hold or still mode, can you point out the area or describe the area

22 using this frame as a guide where the 10 policemen, Mr. Borovnica and

23 Mr. Tadic were?

24 A. Here, this man, there is a man on this road here, those 10 policemen

25 were, roughly speaking, going from this man and this line, in the same

1 portion where this man here is. They were in -- they were all

2 aligned in a row. They were facing the triangle. Borovnica, Goran

3 Borovnica, he was the last man in that line, the way I am looking at

4 it, that is, on the left-hand side, and he was next to the last man in

5 the row who was the policeman, Alic. One could say almost aligned

6 with these policemen, there was Mr. Tadic.

7 Q. So would that have put him next to the policeman, Alic?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. Were the policemen on the same side of the road as where that man on

10 the side walk is or on the portion of the road closest to us in the

11 picture?

12 A. Yes, this is the sidewalk.

13 Q. OK, I am sorry, I am afraid I did not understand the answer; maybe

14 the court did. Were they on the side walk where the man is or some

15 other portion of the frame?

16 A. Yes, they were on the side where that man was.

17 Q. If you can look at Exhibit 196, the map, can you show us where you

18 were?

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: May I ask a question just regarding this before we

20 move on? I am confused. The piece of terrain in front of us, is that

21 the square, the triangle, rather, that is immediately in front of us

22 where it looks like there are some trees there? Is that the triangle,

23 sir?

24 THE WITNESS: This is the triangle I think of, and the way I see the

25 triangle from this side, the way I try to depict this to you, Marsala

1 Tita Street is the small portion of the road that we see that goes

2 from the right-hand side corner towards the left-hand side corner.

3 The triangle I speak of is this part here that goes from the Marsala

4 Tita Street, and this first green bit here, the bushes here that we

5 can see. Right behind these, this wooded part here, there is a road,

6 a concrete road, and right behind the road there is the sidewalk. On

7 that sidewalk were the policemen I am talking about.

8 MR. TIEGER: Where were you, sir, at that time?

9 A. Now, if you look at this picture, let us try to have some kind of an

10 orientation. On this road, looking towards the sidewalk, I was to the

11 right in the same line.

12 Q. Perhaps if I showed you Exhibit 197, that might assist? That would be

13 4/32?

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is that the school behind us, the white building

15 with the green roof, sir?

16 THE WITNESS: Yes.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK.

18 MR. TIEGER: Can Exhibit 197 be called up on the screen, please, for the

19 court? I am sorry, again it is 4/32. Sir, does this photograph help

20 you indicate where you were when you saw the policemen?

21 A. Yes, it can help me. The direction from which I saw those policemen

22 is between the pastry shop and behind the pastry shop going towards

23 Mrakovica, there is another house, a private house, and between those

24 two houses there is a road; and I was in that direction some 20 metres

25 from the entrance to the pastry shop and that house. There is a house

1 there that is just right behind those houses.

2 Q. If I could show the witness 199, 4/30, perhaps we can orient that

3 location relative to the triangle. Sir, does this photograph indicate

4 the same portion of the pastry shop, the area next to it, in the

5 direction of Mrakovica and the triangle as well?

6 A. Yes, that is correct. It is depicted by this picture. I will

7 explain. The road where I was, there is the pastry shop and then the

8 next house, and the road between are on this side, on the right-hand

9 side. The road where I saw the policemen is exactly shown here.

10 Q. Sir, can I stop you for a moment? Your Honour, would you like that

11 put on the elmo so you can see where the witness is indicating, or if

12 this is clear enough, I will not interrupt him. I am sorry.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I do not know understand either. Do you think it

14 would be helpful -- what exhibit is this, this map here? 196?

15 MR. TIEGER: Sure.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 MR. TIEGER (To the witness): Sir, where is the pastry shop (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 A. (redacted).

21 Q. Right. It is the building in that picture shown right next -- to

22 the very right side of the screen.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Where the sign is.

24 MR. TIEGER: The pastry shop is the building with the sign (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 A. Yes, that is correct. Right behind the pastry shop is that road from

2 where I was looking at the policemen, I was watching them. If we

3 compare this road and the road where I was explaining about the

4 triangle, it is in one line.

5 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, would you like to see 196, if that would be

6 helpful?

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: However.

8 MR. TIEGER: Just to orient the court, sir, if we could have you look at

9 Exhibit 196? (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 A. (redacted)

12 Q. The pastry shop would (redacted)

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. OK. The triangle is shown next to the school?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. If we could then return to 199 quickly, picture No. 4/30? You were in

17 the area next to the pastry shop (redacted)

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Just behind the portion of the pastry shop that we see in the picture

20 ---

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. -- looking out in the direction of the triangle?

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE VOHRAH: Are you saying that there is a road between the pastry shop

25 and the building set back slightly beside it?

1 MR. TIEGER: Sir, did you hear the court's question?

2 A. There is a road which is, in fact, the entrance for cars and trucks

3 going into that house that is behind, which you cannot see now.

4 Q. What was Mr. Borovnica wearing on that day?

5 A. He was wearing a patched, camouflage military uniform.

6 Q. What was Mr. Tadic wearing on that day?

7 A. The same thing.

8 Q. Sir, after you left the area, as you described before the

9 adjournment, did you return to the area of the forest?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What was happening at that time in the forest? What was the feeling

12 among the people who remained there who had not surrendered?

13 A. Very depressed, miserable; everyone was trying to find a way out.

14 They were, in fact, simply trying to survive, surviving. One could

15 feel the misery on their faces, the fear.

16 Q. Was there any plan at that point of what to do?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Was there any organised group at this point?

19 A. Yes, at some point I could say that all the people that found

20 themselves in that forest, they became brothers and sisters and so,

21 you know, what the relation is between brethren. They became one

22 being, that is, they became organised.

23 Q. What about when you first returned to the forest that day, was there

24 an organised group?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Did the people have any idea what they were going to do at this

2 point?

3 A. Personally, I think that at the beginning there was not anything like

4 that.

5 Q. Did you think about escaping the area?

6 A. Could I at that very moment had the possibility to be a million

7 kilometres away from there, just anywhere, I would have done it. It

8 was my desire, not only my desire, but everybody's.

9 Q. Where did you want to go?

10 A. First of all, we thought we might go on a road towards Mrakovica.

11 That would be the shortest way to get out and to cross the border from

12 Bosnia into Croatia, to go somewhere on free Croatian territories.

13 Q. Was it possible to do that?

14 A. No. That was not possible at that time.

15 Q. Sir, if I could interrupt for just a moment? I see that No. 4/30 is

16 still on the screen, Exhibits 199, if I could ask you one more

17 question about that? Is that picture still on your computer monitor,

18 the picture of the triangle with the truck parked there?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you tell us if it is shown in this picture where the tank you

21 mentioned was located?

22 A. On this picture, the exact location of the tank cannot be seen, but

23 very easily I can explain that to you.

24 Q. Please.

25 A. We see the triangle, we see what it looks like. On this picture in

1 the left corner, there is a small portion of the road which is the

2 part of this road of the triangle and where this small alleyway I

3 mentioned recently cross with this upper road of the triangle. The

4 place where they cross there was the tank.

5 Q. I was asking you before about the possibilities of escaping to

6 Croatia, and you indicated it was not possible. Why was that

7 impossible to do, to go over Mrakovica?

8 A. Well, personally, as I see things, I am not really an expert for that

9 forest, but somewhere in the depth of that forest, some five to six

10 kilometres into the forest, going towards Mrakovica, there were

11 trenches that had been made there and machine gun nests were dug in

12 there roughly some 20, every 20 metres, and they were in one line, the

13 way it was possible for them to do it. Usually, the position, such

14 position of these trenches was always very well organised from before,

15 because that used to be at the tops of some hills.

16 Q. Sir, why did you not surrender with the other Muslims who gathered in

17 columns and were gathered up in Kozarac?

18 A. I would say, and I guess the others also thought, that Serbs had so

19 much information about all of us, that even if we had joined that

20 column of people that was surrendering, we would be killed. That was

21 the only reason why I did not join that column, even though I do not

22 feel guilty for anything. I am a simple civilian.

23 Q. Were you afraid that your participation in the guard patrols at the

24 hospital would be enough information to get you killed?

25 A. At that moment when things started to happen, all of us thought that

1 that might be only reason or reason enough for the killing.

2 Q. What were you and the other people in the forest doing for the first

3 few days you were there?

4 A. I do not know how the idea came about to go to one of the places from

5 where Kozarac was being shelled. The place, the name of the place is

6 Corica Brdo. So, there were some 250 young men.

7 Q. Where was Corica Brdo approximately?

8 A. The easiest way to become orientated and the depiction, the way that

9 I could depict it, is if we take the Marshal Tito Street, looking

10 towards Mrakovica, Corica Brdo was to the left of the Marshal Tito

11 Street roughly where the motel was in which the hospital was

12 transferred, obviously towards Prijedor.

13 Q. I had asked you what you and the other people in the forest were

14 doing in the first few days you were in the forest. Did that idea

15 come up immediately or was there some period of time in between your

16 return to the forest and when that idea occurred?

17 A. At first, people were simply going seeking food in the nearby houses.

18 These were the first houses near to that location where we were.

19 They were wandering from one place to the other, thereabouts. We were

20 simply just living from one day to the other -- doing nothing.

21 Q. Were you part of the group involved in the decision to go to Corica?

22 A. I did not decide about anything. I was the member of the group.

23 Q. You joined the group in going to Corica?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And set off with about 250 people, I think you indicated?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were all of those people armed?

3 A. No.

4 Q. How many people actually made it to Corica?

5 A. Well, between 80 and 100 people, according to my view.

6 Q. Were those people armed?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What kinds of weapons did you have?

9 A. Starting from kalashnikovs because there was the largest number of

10 those, then hunting rifles.

11 Q. Where was the artillery in Corica located?

12 A. Corica Brdo looks more or less like this. If we approached Corica

13 Brdo, we would see a very steep hill in front of us. The Serbs were

14 positioned on the top of that hill. So, looking from the foot of the

15 hill uphill towards the top of Corica Brdo, all the trees had been

16 felled.

17 JUDGE VOHRAH: Excuse me, can you just show us where Corica Brdo is,

18 please?

19 MR. TIEGER: If we could call up Exhibit 79, please?

20 A. (Indicated).

21 Q. For the record indicating -----

22 A. This would be it.

23 Q. For the record, indicating an area above that portion of the map

24 marked Gornji Garevci in capital letters. Was the Serbian artillery

25 at the top of the hill protected?

1 A. From below, as we looked up Corica Brdo, we could not see any

2 artillery at all. What we could see was a trench in concrete with

3 three bunkers. On those bunkers were the holes so that one could fire

4 from rifles or machine guns through them. Above the bunkers was a

5 tightly stretched camouflage net, military camouflage net.

6 Q. Was there any chance to hit with your rifles the Serbs who were in

7 those bunkers?

8 A. There was an opportunity to fire at them but nothing would have come

9 out of it, and there was no way to have at least one Serb dead.

10 Q. Did your group, nevertheless, try to take the Serb position?

11 A. Yes, we had armed conflicts with Serbs, with those who were up there

12 on Corica Brdo.

13 Q. What happened when your group tried to take that position?

14 A. It was a sterile, an abortive attempt on our side to do something.

15 All we did was lose some of our men and we retreated very quickly.

16 Q. After that attempt was there a decision to try to take another heavy

17 weaponry position?

18 A. Yes, yes, there were such attempts.

19 Q. Where was that position located?

20 A. That position was located towards Vidovici and Babici -- I have

21 already shown this before.

22 Q. What was that Vidovici and Babici location?

23 A. If we try to compare it with Corica, then it would be an imaginary

24 line, except that it ought to face Banja Luka rather than Prijedor,

25 Banja Luka, and it ran parallely roughly with the highway

1 Prijedor/Banja Luka.

2 Q. Did approximately the same number of people, the same number of

3 Muslims, go to Vidovici, Babici, as had gone to Corica?

4 A. Some 80 people or so reached Vidovici and Babici.

5 Q. OK, and were you among that group?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Was the group armed in approximately the same way as the group that

8 had been at Corica?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What happened when you approached the Serbian position?

11 A. The Serbs had noticed us. The fire was opened, and there was

12 exchange of fire. We spent there a very short while. Again, several

13 of us laid their lives in that same place, in Babici and Vidovici, and

14 we again retreated. It was quite impossible to do anything on our

15 part.

16 Q. By the beginning of June, had the Serbs set up machine gun nests in

17 various places in Kozarac?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Where were those machine gun nests located?

20 A. Some of the machine gun nests were located by the principal mosque,

21 Mutnik in old town, then next to the Amsterdam cafe and then on the

22 bank, on the bank building in Kozarac there was a sniper.

23 Q. Did smaller groups of Muslims attempt to eliminate those machine gun

24 nests?

25 A. They did try.

1 Q. Did you join in that attempt?

2 A. At the time.

3 Q. How large were the groups that would go after the machine gun nests?

4 A. Those were -- there were very few men. It depended on the situation;

5 two, sometimes three, never more than six or seven men.

6 Q. Was there one or more machine gun nests at the mosque?

7 A. There were two.

8 Q. Was the attempt or attempts to destroy the machine gun nests at the

9 mosque successful?

10 A. In part.

11 Q. Were any of the other attempts to destroy the machine gun nests in

12 the other portions of Kozarac that you indicated successful?

13 A. Yes. One of them was the machine gun nest next to "Amsterdam".

14 Q. During this period of time you were in the forest, were you obtaining

15 food from local villages?

16 A. The food, we had to go and look for it. We did not obtain it. We

17 did not get it from anyone.

18 Q. Were you able to obtain food from the village of Besici?

19 A. Yes, one could find some food in the village of Besici.

20 Q. Was that one of the nearest villages to where you were in the forest?

21 A. Yes, it was immediately behind, very near to the place where we were.

22 Q. Who lived in Besici, what age group, what gender, what nationality?

23 A. For the most part, as throughout Kozarac, the majority, 90 per cent

24 or perhaps even more, were Muslims. At the time there were largely

25 elderly people there who did not want to leave their homes.

1 Q. One day did you go with others who had been in the forest to Besici

2 to seek food?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. What did you see when you arrived in Besici?

5 A. That day I saw a house set on fire. In that house I saw old people

6 burning and I personally briefly saw the corpses of those people; a

7 number of people, there were 12 of them. That information which I

8 obtained about those people who were in that house came to me from

9 people who before me had gone in search of food. They, those

10 self-same ones, dropped in by those old people, so that those 12 which

11 were alive before could be established very easily.

12 Q. Were there other corpses in the general area of Besici?

13 A. Yes, very near that house (and it is characteristic to mention it)

14 there was a body of a small child pierced with rags. That was one of

15 the worst moments in my life -- a picture that I will remember always.

16 Q. Sir, the translation which we received says that the "body of a small

17 child was pierced with rags". Can you describe what the body of the

18 child was pierced with?

19 A. It is an implement, it is an agricultural implement, it is called a

20 "rake".

21 Q. What is it used for?

22 A. It is used to collect hay or to sweep, to sweep the manure from the

23 space where these animals are kept.

24 Q. Sir, is this an instrument with a handle and prongs coming out

25 straight up?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is it also referred to as a pitchfork?

3 A. Yes. Yes, unless if you want me to show them, I can do that with

4 this pointer, if you want me to?

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: If you wish.

6 THE WITNESS: This implement looks like this. This is a wooden stick

7 with which we hold this tool usually, and on top, and it may depend,

8 it has three or four, sometimes perhaps four of them, this part here;

9 if three, then it will have one, if they are four, then there will be

10 one up here.

11 MR. TIEGER: Was this instrument actually in the body of the child?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you see any people in the area who had been killed with knives?

14 A. Immediately, some 50 metres as we moved from Besici, that is, from

15 that house where those 12 people and the child were massacred, we are

16 moving downward, we are descending towards Kozarac. Down there, we

17 came across more corpses strewn all around, individual, and we came

18 across a corpse, a dead body. He was killed with a knife and fixed to

19 the door and the knife had passed through that -- I am sorry, through

20 the neck, the knife has passed through the neck of that man.

21 Q. During your time in the forest did you also see the results of

22 cleansings of other Muslim villages?

23 A. Yes, I saw it.

24 JUDGE STEPHEN: Can I ask you, I have not got the name of this -- Besici,

25 is it?

1 MR. TIEGER: Besici.

2 JUDGE STEPHEN: As distinct from Babici?

3 MR. TIEGER: Yes, I would be happy to have the witness confirm that. (To

4 the witness): Sir, the name of village, an area, you were just

5 talking about was Besici?

6 A. (Microphone, please. The witness's microphone is off) Yes, that is

7 the name of the village.

8 Q. And that is a different place from Babici?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you try to find Besici or the area of Besici on the map, Exhibit

11 79?

12 A. (Indicated).

13 Q. You are indicating the area below Podgrade and Mahmaljin?

14 A. It is very curious that Besici is not on this map. Other maps that I

15 saw before, one could see it, but that is roughly the place.

16 Q. At some point did a small group of the people in the forest decide to

17 attempt to liberate one of the camps?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Which camp was that?

20 A. It was Trnopolje camp.

21 Q. Did you agree to join that group?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Approximately when was that?

24 A. I am not quite positive, but it was around June 8th, 8th June, June

25 8th 1992.

1 Q. Can you show us on the map the path that the group proposed to take

2 to go from the area where you were to Trnopolje?

3 A. It is all right, no problem. (Indicated).

4 Q. So, as you indicated this path south, it would take you on the

5 Prijedor side of Kozarac and then down to the area of Suhi Brod which

6 is shown, if the map is raised just a bit?

7 A. True, quite so. A place where I stopped last where roughly the

8 houses where we had stopped.

9 Q. In Suhi Brod, were you discovered by Serbian forces?

10 A. Yes, they discovered us.

11 Q. Did you manage to escape from them after discovery?

12 A. Yes, we managed to escape; only one of us was hit and incapacitated.

13 Q. Where did you and the others then decide to go?

14 A. After that we simply tried to get out alive from these houses, so

15 when we got out from those houses we moved across Suhi Brod towards

16 Trnopolje camp. However, we were discovered by Serbs and what did we

17 see? We saw a personnel carrier which was approaching us. It was

18 coming from the direction of the crossroads in Kozarac, Prijedor/Banja

19 Luka road, and the APC was moving down towards Trnopolje. In fact, it

20 obstructed our path, the path that we were moving along, so that we

21 decided to go back towards the same place where we were, in those

22 houses.

23 Q. Sir, I am sorry, I do not want to interrupt, you should continue, but

24 I wanted to know if you were able to escape from this situation of

25 being pursued by the APC?

1 A. Well, to begin with, we did not see a way out, but eventually there

2 happened to be a way out.

3 Q. Did you know where your family was at that time?

4 A. I only guessed and from stories of some people, from some

5 information, I knew that they were in the village of Sivci.

6 Q. Did you then make your way to Sivci?

7 A. After that, yes.

8 Q. Did you locate your family?

9 A. Yes, I did. I found them.

10 Q. Did you intend to mingle with the people who were already in Sivci

11 and stay with your family?

12 A. Yes. Yes, I stayed in that house where my parents were.

13 Q. What happened the day after you were reunited with your family?

14 A. Early the next day the raid, a raid was carried out. Serb soldiers

15 came, broke into the village of Sivci, took out all men from houses

16 and stationed those males in a place in the yard of a big house. That

17 was precisely where my parents and I were.

18 Q. Did the Serbian forces come with any heavy weaponry or tanks?

19 A. Yes, they brought tanks along.

20 Q. Did they enter houses in order to remove people from inside?

21 A. Yes, they entered houses, and checked so that no male fit to serve

22 the army would stay behind.

23 Q. Were Muslim men collected from nearby areas as well?

24 A. All Muslim from that area were collected and gathered precisely in

25 that big courtyard from the house where my parents and I were.

1 Q. Sir, looking at Exhibit 79, the map, can you show us where Sivci is?

2 A. (Indicated).

3 Q. From what direction did you see the men who were gathered from other

4 areas being brought into Sivci?

5 A. All around because roughly where I was and my parents were there was

6 some kind of a centre where from all the other directions they were

7 coming there.

8 Q. Looking at the map on the screen, did you see people coming from the

9 areas shown to the right of Sivci?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Men coming from above Sivci? There is no translation.

12 A. From all around, the whole area around Sivci and Sivci, all the men

13 were collected.

14 Q. Were the men who were collected forced to sing Chetnik songs as they

15 were marched towards Sivci?

16 A. Yes. They were singing. I cannot say whether they were forced to,

17 but they were singing.

18 Q. What was their physical condition as they approached Sivci?

19 A. Well, most of them were in blood. about 80 per cent of the people

20 that were arriving either from above or below, they were in blood.

21 Q. Once they arrived were any of the men murdered on the spot?

22 A. They were all gathered there. There were two murders.

23 Q. How were the people killed? With what weapons?

24 A. One was killed close, some 10 metres from the spot where we were on a

25 small lane. Stabbed on to a knife, a rifle knife. The rifle was put

1 upright on from the ground and that guy was ordered to put his throat,

2 this part here of the head, on the bayonet. After that he received

3 only one strong blow with the butt on the head, and you can imagine

4 what was to follow. The second one which was killed on that same lane

5 some 30 metres from where we were, he was killed with a burst of fire,

6 a kalashnikov rifle.

7 Q. Did buses arrive?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Were you and other Muslim men put on those buses?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Where were you taken?

12 A. To Keraterm.

13 MR. TIEGER: If we could show the remaining portion of the video which is

14 No. 6 beginning at 9/37?

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What is the exhibit number?

16 MR. TIEGER: I am sorry, your Honour, this is still Exhibit 195. Before

17 we begin, if I could ask you a few more questions, sir? I am sorry.

18 When you arrived at Keraterm and got off the bus, were you and the

19 others ordered to leave your documents and valuables there?

20 A. Yes, we were ordered to do that.

21 Q. Were you and the others beaten on your way to the cell in which you

22 were held?

23 A. When we were getting off the bus, we had to go through a gauntlet of

24 people of Serb nationality, the army soldiers; and, as I simply put

25 it, depending on the luck, some people were beaten, some people were

1 beaten by rifle butts, some with a stick, some with a fist --

2 thousands of different ways. That is the easiest way to explain that.

3 It was all luck with what you were going to be hit.

4 Q. Where were you taken, into what part of Keraterm?

5 A. I went and a larger group of people went to the cell No. 2.

6 MR. TIEGER: Can this document be shown to the Defence and can it be

7 marked -- photograph, rather -- as Exhibit 201 for identification?

8 That would be No. 29, 127, 29/127 -- I am sorry, I am reading that

9 wrong -- 29/27, if that helps the technicians. May that be placed on

10 the monitor?

11 (To the witness): Sir, does this photograph depict Keraterm?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Where was the room or cell to which you were taken?

14 A. As we are looking at this photograph, looking at this corner here on

15 the left side, we can see a door. The second door from the left,

16 going from the left to the right, the cell No. 1, practically those

17 three doors, and the cell No. 2, these other two doors, looking from

18 the left to the right.

19 Q. OK. Those are the doors immediately below the large window or

20 windows shown above?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Cell No. 2 is directly below the third portion of the window to the

23 right, is that accurate?

24 A. That is correct.

25 Q. What was the date you were brought to Keraterm, the date of the

1 cleansing of Sivci, do you recall?

2 A. 14th June 1992.

3 Q. Were prisoners in cell No. 2 when you arrived?

4 A. There were.

5 Q. What was their condition?

6 A. Very poor.

7 Q. Did they show physical signs of having been beaten?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. How crowded was cell No. 2?

10 A. It was fairly crowded in the cell No. 2, I should say some 500 to 600

11 people.

12 Q. Did you ever count the number of prisoners, or have occasion to count

13 the number of prisoners, in cell No. 2?

14 A. I had the opportunity to count the people.

15 Q. Why did that occur?

16 A. The Serb guards asked for somebody with a nice handwriting, so they

17 asked me to do that and I started to make a list of all the people,

18 their names and also the names of their fathers, dates of birth and

19 also the profession.

20 Q. Is that when you were able to count the number of prisoners in cell

21 No. 2?

22 A. Yes, I was doing all that, so I was asked to do so, and to put all

23 the numbers and the people, so at the end the last number was 572 in

24 the cell No. 2.

25 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would first of all tender Exhibit 201 into

1 evidence.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to 201?

3 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 201 will be admitted.

5 MR. TIEGER: I would ask that the No. 6 portion of Exhibit 195 now be

6 shown and, with the court's permission, I may at some point ask to

7 have that fast forwarded to the relevant portions.

8 (The video was played)

9 THE WITNESS: These pictures, we see the cell No. 1 and cell No. 2, and

10 here we can see something that is not there. These are the metal

11 doors, the iron doors, that were put on the cells 1 and 2. Here we

12 see those. We can see very nicely and clearly in white, these are the

13 door parts.

14 Q. First of all, are we entering cell No. 2 now?

15 A. Yes, that is the cell No. 2.

16 Q. That wall portion seen to the right, was that there when you were

17 held in cell No. 2? We may have to reverse it for you to see that.

18 We will see it on the way out of the room.

19 A. The wall that was just shown did not exist. Here we see the wire

20 that was separating the room No. 2 from some kind of a storage room.

21 This was not a full type of wall. All the others were real walls,

22 like this one. This, this door was not here. It did not exist then.

23 Q. So the structure to the left which is the wall to the left and as it

24 continues towards the wall to the back did not exist when you were

25 held in cell No. 2?

1 A. No, it did not exist.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: May I ask a question -- well, let us watch the video

3 first.

4 MR. TIEGER: Is this the area of the camp as seen from the door to cell

5 No. 2?

6 A. Yes. This is the door of the kitchen.

7 Q. Is that the door to the right of cell No. 2?

8 A. Yes, that is correct.

9 Q. Looking through the window of this structure, can you see the wall of

10 cell No. 2?

11 A. Sorry, I did not understand the question.

12 Q. Looking through the window shown here, can you see the wall of cell

13 No. 2 and the barrels that were lined up against that wall?

14 A. Yes, that is the wall. This is the wall that was separating the cell

15 No. 1 from the cell No. 2.

16 Q. OK. So we are now inside we are in the other side of that wall that

17 you said was not in cell No. 2 at the time you were there?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can we stop that right here? Can you read what is written or

20 scratched on this girder?

21 A. "C No. 26" and "510".

22 Q. Is that is an "M" next to the 510?

23 A. It is -- the picture is not really very clear, but it looks like the

24 letter "M".

25 Q. Do you know what this inscription refers to?

1 A. The only thing is that I can suppose maybe it could be a date the 2nd

2 June and the number of people, 510. I do not know.

3 Q. If we could continue, please? Thank you. Sir, were there beatings

4 in cell 2?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Were there beatings on the first night you were there?

7 A. Yes. Somebody was beaten.

8 Q. Were prisoners beaten inside the room or were they called from the

9 room?

10 A. They were called out to go outside.

11 Q. How were they called out? How were they identified?

12 A. Usually they would call, for example, by a village or town, everybody

13 from Jacupovici, for example, or Kozarac or Dera. They called out the

14 people from areas where we used to live.

15 Q. What area was called out the first night you were there?

16 A. I can remember the first to be called out was the area of Jacupovici.

17 Q. Were other areas called out?

18 A. Yes, people from Kozarac, from Sivci, from Dera, from Paratusici were

19 called out.

20 Q. Did you go out when there was a call from prisoners from Kozarac?

21 A. Yes, I went out.

22 Q. Who was out there?

23 A. That moment, I did not know some of people, quite a few of them I did

24 not know, but very soon I learned. Some of those were Zoran Zigic,

25 Duca and his gang. There were quite a lot of guards that were

1 guarding us while I was at Keraterm.

2 Q. On that first night did these guards have objects with which to beat

3 the prisoners?

4 A. Yes, they had.

5 Q. What kind of objects?

6 A. Among the objects, if I can mention them quickly, were baseball bats,

7 thick wire for electricity, that type of wire. They had something like

8 baseball bats but it was more, sort of, rough. They also had

9 electrical batons and police batons. They had something like a

10 electrical wire and at the ends were something like balls just made of

11 electrical wire all tied up -- those kinds of things.

12 Q. Were you and the others beaten with those objects?

13 A. Yes, I was beaten like all the others.

14 Q. Did the Serbs who were beating you say anything to you and the others

15 as they were doing so?

16 A. Among those things which, if I can enumerate, was, "Fuck your balija

17 mother; we are going to kill you. Balija's blood is nice", those

18 kinds of things -- all offensive. They would say, "Oh, yes, you were

19 the one who had the gun", or some kind of stupid things simply, very

20 nasty.

21 Q. After that first night did prisoners continue to be called out on

22 subsequent nights?

23 A. After the first four or five days roughly, speaking, they called out

24 by names, as I described previously, Jakupovic, Kozarac and so on.

25 Afterwards they started to call by giving out the person's full name.

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for 20 minutes. How much

2 longer do you have, do you think, Mr. Tieger?

3 MR. TIEGER: I would guess 30 to 45 minutes is my estimate.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.

5 (4.00 p.m.)

6 (The court adjourned for a short time)

7 (4.20 p.m.)

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, would you like to continue, please?

9 MR. TIEGER: Sir, were some prisoners called out repeatedly to be beaten

10 or tortured?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did some of the tortures to prisoners include making them swallow

13 rifle cartridges or sitting on beer bottles as they were being

14 beaten?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did all the people who were called out to be beaten return to the

17 cell?

18 A. Not all.

19 Q. Did some prisoners return only to die in the cell from their

20 beatings?

21 A. Yes, there were such cases too.

22 Q. Were some prisoners called out to do different jobs for the Serbs,

23 such as load bodies?

24 A. Such cases too.

25 Q. Did some of them never return and were never heard of again by their

1 friends and families?

2 A. Yes, there were such cases also.

3 Q. Were some wealthier prisoners called out and then placed in the trunk

4 of a car and driven off?

5 A. Yes, there were such cases as well.

6 Q. Were interrogations conducted in Keraterm?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Were prisoners beaten during the interrogations?

9 A. Sometimes, some were, some were not.

10 Q. Did some of them return to the cells unconscious, dragged in and

11 thrown in by guards?

12 A. Yes, there were such cases.

13 Q. Were you interrogated?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Looking at Exhibit 201, if we can quickly, can you show us where the

16 interrogation took place?

17 A. Yes, I can.

18 Q. Where was that?

19 A. As we see this picture, it was on the left side of the building of

20 Keraterm. There is a protrusion here and there is the entrance and

21 staircase to those rooms where they interrogated us.

22 Q. So the entrance is at the protrusion you mention at the far left side

23 of the screen or far left side of the picture?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Then you went upstairs to be interrogated in an office upstairs?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did the interrogator have a list of prisoners?

3 A. We were called out by name when we went to go -- when we went for

4 those interrogations.

5 Q. When you were interrogated, did you see whether or not the

6 interrogator had a list of the prisoners in Keraterm or, at least,

7 some of the prisoners who were in Keraterm?

8 A. Yes, I saw.

9 Q. Did he have specific information about the prisoners and their lives

10 before the war?

11 A. He had it all, he had several lists. He looked into -- when the

12 prisoner would say his first name and family name, he looked in the

13 list to check whether the prisoner before him was on one of such

14 lists.

15 Q. When you were interrogated, did the interrogator look at such a list

16 and did he have specific information about you and about others

17 contained on that list?

18 A. Yes, he had some information about me which surprised me no end. One

19 such information was a grant, was a donation, which, as far as I knew,

20 went as aid directly to the Local Commune in Kozarac as help to some

21 poor families in Kozarac. He quoted exactly the dates and the amount

22 of money I had donated; in the first case, the amount of money and who

23 I gave it to and, in the second case, and moreover on the third case,

24 on a third occasion when I donated some items (redacted) such as jam

25 or pasta and things like that.

1 Q. Did he accuse you of donating money for military purposes?

2 A. Yes, he accused me in that sense.

3 Q. Were you beaten or kicked during your interrogation?

4 A. I was, during the interrogation I was hit with a rifle, with a rifle

5 butt, on the back; on another occasion I was kicked with a foot in the

6 body, in the stomach.

7 Q. Let me ask you a few questions about the general conditions in

8 Keraterm. How often were you fed?

9 A. Once a day.

10 Q. What were you given to eat?

11 A. We were given a very thin slice of bread and we got, it varied,

12 sometimes beans, sometimes cabbage, sometimes some pasta. But, for

13 instance, if it was cabbage or anything like that, I would get one

14 leaf, one cabbage leaf, and the rest would be water of that cabbage.

15 Q. You were in Keraterm at the height of the summer; were you sometimes

16 locked in the cells for periods of time?

17 A. Yes, yes, for five -- for four or five days.

18 Q. Were you always given water?

19 A. No, not always.

20 Q. Were there facilities for washing and for personal hygiene?

21 A. No, we did not. We had a toilet and one could -- and only those who

22 were brave enough went to the toilet or who went there aware they

23 would get, as we put it, a truncheon.

24 Q. Were new prisoners always arriving?

25 A. Yes, there were, new prisoners were always arriving, not every day

1 but they were always arriving.

2 Q. Toward the later part of July, were new prisoners from the Hambarine

3 area brought to Keraterm?

4 A. Yes, they began to arrive.

5 Q. How were they treated?

6 A. I have no words to describe how they treated them. The description

7 is very, very, very -- they fared very badly, those who survived.

8 Q. Could you hear many prisoners from Hambarine screaming from being

9 beaten at the same time?

10 A. Yes, every inmate who was kept in Keraterm heard that.

11 Q. Were the new prisoners from Hambarine fed?

12 A. From the first day when they arrived and during the first four or

13 five days, they were given no food at all.

14 Q. In what cell were they placed?

15 A. Cell No. 3.

16 Q. Had that cell been cleared out before their arrival?

17 A. Yes, before their arrival that there were some prisoners there, as

18 well as we said all the old prisoners were moved to other cells, and

19 cell No. 4 was opened also.

20 Q. If we could call up Exhibit 201, it is 29/27 again? Can you tell us,

21 please, and indicate where cell No. 3 is located?

22 A. As we move along this picture, on the left side of this picture from

23 the corner, corner of this building, as I have already said, the first

24 three doors, as I called them, is cell No. 1. Then come these two

25 doors. This is cell No. 2. Then an entrance into this kitchenette,

1 and we are coming to this other protruding part and this was the

2 toilet. Here, here we see the light, that post which cuts the

3 building into two. Now, if we look from that post, the beginning of

4 the cell would be here and it ended approximately where this wall, as

5 we move to the right from the lamp post.

6 JUDGE VOHRAH: Can you point that out?

7 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. We will put the photograph on the

8 elmo. (To the witness): If you could just point to cell No. 3,

9 please?

10 A. This is the post that I have in mind, and cell 3 should begin here

11 down to this wall here.

12 Q. Thank you. Were machine gun nests set up after the prisoners from

13 Hambarine arrived?

14 A. Yes, they were put up.

15 Q. Where were they placed?

16 A. As one enters the Keraterm camp itself, right at the entrance into

17 Keraterm camp, on the left side, there is a small standing kiosk, a

18 reception kiosk. There is a ramp naturally, so we move further on

19 towards the camp, and on the right side is also something like a kiosk

20 but made of bricks. As we move on and we look to the right, behind

21 that facility, some 10 metres roughly behind it, that should

22 approximately be the machine gun nest. That machine gun nest

23 overlooked directly the entrance to cell No. 3. There was another

24 machine gun nest, if we go back to the other kiosk made of bricks and

25 move some 10 metres forward towards the cells, the second machine gun

1 nest was to the left, immediately to the left, some 10 metres forward

2 from the kiosk and to the left.

3 Q. A few days after the prisoners from Hambarine arrived, did you hear

4 bursts of machine gunfire at night?

5 A. The first night, as far as I can remember -- whether it was the first

6 or the second night, I am not quite so sure about that, but I think

7 it was the first night -- we heard some bursts and before that

8 screams, cries, moreover, some individual shots, I think, from a

9 pistol.

10 Q. In the morning were the prisoners from your cell permitted to go out

11 to the toilet?

12 A. No, they did not permit us to go to the toilet. We were given a

13 barrel in cell No. 2.

14 Q. Was there any odour or stench coming from outside?

15 A. Yes, it was unbearable. There was a terrible stench.

16 Q. Were prisoners called out from your room to load bodies?

17 A. Yes, they were called out.

18 Q. Did the persons who loaded the bodies tell you how many bodies were

19 loaded?

20 A. Yes, they told me.

21 Q. How many?

22 A. 151 bodies.

23 Q. Were people who were wounded also put on the truck?

24 A. As far as I was informed by that one man who loaded those corpses,

25 there were three of them. They were also loaded on to that truck,

1 that long truck with a trailer.

2 Q. Did you see that long truck with a trailer leaving Keraterm?

3 A. Yes, I saw it.

4 Q. In which direction did it to go?

5 A. It was headed for Banja Luka, Omarska, Kozarac, Banja Luka -- that

6 would be the direction.

7 Q. Did you see anything coming from the truck or leaking from the truck?

8 A. Yes, I saw blood.

9 Q. That night, that is, after the bodies were loaded, did anything

10 happen?

11 A. The second night immediately after that we heard again bursts of

12 fire.

13 Q. Did you receive information indicating how many men were killed that

14 night?

15 A. Yes, 55.

16 Q. During the time you were in Keraterm, did you ever see Dusko Tadic

17 there?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was that toward the beginning, the middle or the end of your

20 imprisonment in Keraterm?

21 A. I can use Hambarine as a reference point; shortly before that, five,

22 six or seven days.

23 Q. In what part of the camp was he when you saw him?

24 A. Where did I see him? I saw him by the second kiosk, the one which

25 was made of bricks.

1 Q. What was he doing when you first saw him?

2 A. As far as I could see, he was conversing with those men there who

3 were guarding us.

4 Q. What did he do next?

5 A. He started towards these cells and came up to them. He was joking,

6 making some jokes. All those jokes looked so ironical that I have no

7 words for that.

8 Q. Approximately how long did you stay in the camp?

9 A. I came to the camp on 14th June and I stayed there until the closure

10 of the camp, as we said, and that was on 5th August.

11 Q. I am sorry, the question was meant to be, approximately how long was

12 Dusko Tadic in Keraterm that day?

13 A. For a very, very short time, 15, 20 minutes, not more than that, 15,

14 20 minutes.

15 Q. OK. Where were you when you saw him?

16 A. I was usually, if we look, as we look at it from the entrance of cell

17 No. 2, in the right corner, in the far right corner of that room.

18 Q. Were you in cell No. 2 when you saw him on that day?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. Did you see Dusko Tadic leave the camp?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How did he leave?

23 A. He left in a van, that van otherwise carried men called out in the

24 camp and who left the camp along the Kozarac/Omarska road, and that is

25 the road they were heading for towards which they were transported.

1 Q. So the van he left in headed towards, went along the Kozarac/Omarska

2 road. In which direction was it heading? Towards Kozarac and Omarska?

3 A. Towards Kozarac and Omarska.

4 Q. Were there prisoners in the van that day?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What was Dusko Tadic wearing that day?

7 A. He was wearing that camouflage, multi-coloured camouflage uniform.

8 Moreover, I think he had a Red Beret stuck on, fixed on, his shoulder

9 below the epaulet.

10 Q. You indicated you were released from Keraterm when it closed down.

11 Do you remember approximately when that was?

12 A. 5th August 1992 was when Keraterm was closed and I was transferred to

13 Trnopolje, to the camp, that same day.

14 Q. Were conditions in Trnopolje better than they had been in Keraterm?

15 A. They were better.

16 Q. Did you learn from others who had been there before you that there

17 had been mistreatment in Trnopolje as well?

18 A. Yes, I heard about that. It did happen just like in the Keraterm

19 camp.

20 Q. Shortly after you arrived at Trnopolje, did you learn that a convoy

21 of buses was expected to leave Trnopolje for free territory in Bosnia?

22 A. Yes, I heard.

23 Q. Did you decide to make an effort to get on that convoy?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How did you attempt to do so?

1 A. That convoy was intended for people living in a part of Kozarac.

2 Just now I cannot remember the name exactly. It is a small part of --

3 at the moment I simply cannot remember it. Those people were in that

4 part throughout, at home and they were guarded by their neighbours,

5 Serbs. They came when they were told that they could no longer look

6 after them, protect them.

7 What could they provide them with? They could provide them

8 with a convoy which would reach the free part of the territory of

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and they came to the camp at Trnopolje and the

10 buses arrived and I knew all those people. That particular family

11 worked the land of my parents and I asked that man to say that I was

12 one of his sons since he had a large family, simply to be able to get

13 on to that bus. That is how it happened. I boarded together with

14 them.

15 Q. Was the convoy headed for Travnik?

16 A. That convoy was headed for Vlasic and from Vlasic to Travnik, old

17 Travnik.

18 Q. Were the buses stopped at Vlasic mountain?

19 A. During the ride we were halted several times, but we were stopped

20 right before the Vlasic plateau, and then one Serb soldier boarded

21 every bus and began to take out males between 17 and 55 years of age.

22 I was in that bus looking from behind, behind the driver, on the same

23 side as the driver, but in the back, the second row from the back.

24 Q. Did you do anything to try to escape being selected?

25 A. Before I boarded the bus, I had shaved thoroughly and a friend of

1 mine cut my hair very short.

2 Q. Was that in an effort to look younger?

3 A. Yes, it was an effort to look younger and I look quite young.

4 Q. When the Serb boarded the bus and started making the selections of

5 men, did you do anything else to try to avoid being selected?

6 A. Yes, I did the following. Together with me, next to me, in the same

7 row a woman was sitting and she had a baby. I gave her the sign with

8 my hand to pass the child into my lap otherwise I was sitting next to

9 the window; so that I was lucky or maybe that baby I was holding

10 helped me to stay on the bus. Nobody knows.

11 Q. Did the buses leave without the men who had been taken from the other

12 buses?

13 A. Yes, they continued and those men were aligned in a row next to those

14 buses. We continued on to the Vlasic plateau where we got off, all of

15 us got off the bus. There were also trailers there, six trailers,

16 apart from the buses.

17 Q. Did you learn what happened to the men who had been selected from the

18 buses and left behind on Vlasic mountain?

19 A. Yes, I learned that slightly afterwards.

20 Q. What happened to them?

21 A. We heard that all of them were killed. There were some 250 people.

22 Q. What was the approximate date of your journey from Trnopolje camp to

23 Vlasic?

24 A. That happened exactly on 21st August 1992.

25 Q. Is that when you arrived in free territory in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. TIEGER: I have nothing further, your Honour.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Cross-examination?

4 Cross-examined by MR. KAY

5 Q. Witness Q, I would like to ask you some questions, first of all,

6 about any local force you may have been involved with in Kozarac which

7 had been formed by the local Muslim men for the defence of Kozarac.

8 Were you a member of such a group?

9 A. First of all, that was not an organised group. I was a civilian who

10 had a rifle and who was trying to defend his house, his home.

11 Q. You were not part of a group under Captain Cirkin?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You had not been organised by Captain Cirkin into a group to defend

14 Kozarac and be ready to fight the Serbs?

15 A. No, I was not on that list.

16 Q. Are you aware if Captain Cirkin did organise such a group in Kozarac?

17 A. About that organising, I have not got any information I can say. I

18 do not know that. I was interested in my work which I did, my job.

19 Q. Any statement you may have made then in which you have previously

20 said that 40 people had been organised and given basic training from

21 Captain Cirkin would be untrue, would it?

22 A. I am sorry, as far as I can recall, I did not mention Captain Cirkin

23 or any kind of training or any kind of organising by Captain Cirkin or

24 anything under Cirkin's command.

25 Q. Do you know of whom I am speaking when I use the name Captain Cirkin?

1 A. Yes, I know.

2 Q. Was he in charge of the TO unit in Kozarac?

3 A. I am sorry, once again I have to say that I do not know that. I have

4 not got that information, me personally.

5 Q. Were you given any assignments by Captain Cirkin to help in the

6 defence of Kozarac?

7 A. First of all, I said that I knew nothing about Captain Cirkin and,

8 moreover, I have to tell you something. I did not see Captain Cirkin

9 during that time in the forest, maybe we passed by the other one, the

10 other every time, missed each other every time.

11 Q. So any statement by you that you had been assigned to the medical

12 unit which was based at that time in Rizvino Hotel next to the old

13 sawmill, would that be untrue?

14 A. I am sorry, I did not understand the question very well. Could you

15 please repeat it?

16 Q. Any statement by you that you had been assigned to the medical unit

17 which was based at the time in Rizvino Hotel next to the old sawmill,

18 would that be untrue?

19 A. First of all, I was not put into any -- assigned to anywhere. I

20 simply (redacted) who were in some kind of a patrol drinking

21 plum brandy and making barbecues. I joined them and I always say I

22 was going to the hospital because I thought simply that I could be of

23 some help there.

24 Q. Were you in a small team of people that included Elvis Kljucanin, his

25 brother, Enis, Suad and Sahid Modranja as well as Haris and Anes

1 Becerovic?

2 A. (redacted)

3 (redacted) one of those people you have mentioned I

4 received information that they were gathering up there at the

5 hospital, so based on the information from that friend, I joined those

6 people. But, (redacted) who gave

7 them the order, that is something I do not know.

8 Q. Had you formed yourself into a small military formation, almost a

9 platoon, and kept your organisation secret at that time?

10 A. I will answer you like this. When I say the word "platoon", I was in

11 the previous -- in the former Yugoslav People's Army and I know how to

12 distinguish a unit, a battalion and so on. So the word "platoon" came

13 out of my head. It is, I mean, it is something completely stupid. It

14 came out of our heads. It is not defined.

15 Q. Do you remember making a statement saying that is, in fact, what you

16 did, that you formed a small military formation and Captain Cirkin was

17 your Commander and you kept the organisation secret?

18 A. Part of what you have said is correct, but one part of it, I am sorry

19 to say, that is not true. The correct part is up until the moment

20 when you mentioned Captain Cirkin, and normally all that what you said

21 afterwards.

22 Q. I am reading from two statements written by people on your behalf.

23 The first one (redacted) to the centre for investigating war

24 crimes and genocide against Muslims, and the second to another

25 investigator at a subsequent date, both signed by you. Would you like

1 to see those statements?

2 A. No problem.

3 Q. Mr. Usher, if you could, first of all, hand that one to the witness?

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Just for the record's sake, can you put a number on

5 that? That would be Defence something for identification purposes and

6 see if he can examine it, otherwise we will lose it, I suppose, on the

7 record. It is about, what is it, 8 or 9?

8 MR. KAY: 9, Defence 9. (To the witness): The first statement you are

9 looking at is a handwritten statement, Mr. Q, (redacted)

10 It is headed, as you will see -- perhaps you will look at the front

11 page -- "The Centre for Investigating war crimes and genocide against

12 Muslims". It is a series of handwritten pages. If you turn to the

13 last page, Mr. Q, you will see your name there and a signature by you.

14 If you would like to turn back to the first page and, perhaps, just

15 read that first page to yourself now? Have you had a chance to look

16 at it?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you agree that in this statement there contains the information

19 that I was putting to you which reads like this: "About 20 or 30 of

20 us younger, better off Muslims got together and organised ourselves

21 into a small military formation, almost a platoon, and named ourselves

22 the 'Green Berets'. We chose Captain Cirkin for our Commander.

23 Later, when the fighting started, he betrayed us. The whole

24 organisation was kept secret at the time". Do you agree this was

25 information that you gave (redacted) to people investigating

1 allegations concerning war crimes?

2 A. First of all, I have to say that I made quite a few statements either

3 to these institutes or to some journalists and so on and so on, but

4 each one of these statements or reports that I gave, as one can see,

5 was written by somebody who was listening and very much resumes what I

6 said, but it could have been written wrongly on that piece of paper.

7 Generally speaking about my signature, I sign usually in a different

8 way. You can even check that.

9 Q. This interview took place soon after you had left Trnopolje and

10 whilst you were at Zenica?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And events at that time had been fairly recent, what you had told the

13 investigators about what happened in May, June, July, August had only

14 been events that had taken place three or four months before?

15 A. I do not understand really the question. It is true that that was

16 three or four months after, but if anyone in this courtroom can

17 understand, at that moment I was born again, once again. I was the

18 happiest person in the world because I came out of there alive and

19 during all my lifetime and everything that I told you today, that was

20 what I tried to do, survive and I managed. Believe me, that is why I

21 am here.

22 Q. But the information about Captain Cirkin could only have come from

23 you?

24 A. No, it is not possible it could come just from me, because in that

25 centre, the centre was overcrowded with all kinds of statements and

1 information.

2 Q. Let us look then at a second statement made by you which was not

3 taken in the same circumstances. Perhaps you would look at this

4 document here. (Document handed to the witness). For the record,

5 your Honour, it will be Defence 10. (To the witness): Do you see

6 this statement here, again stamped? I cannot see a date on it, but

7 perhaps you can remember when this statement was taken from you. It

8 was signed by you.

9 MR. TIEGER: I am sorry, your Honour, before the witness answers, if that

10 is built in, if that is a question then the witness should answer it

11 with respect to the signature. If that is a statement as part of the

12 question, then it assumes facts not in evidence and I would object for

13 that reason. I do not mean to be technical, but when there is a

14 question put by the examiner which assumes that a document was signed,

15 I think that needs to be verified first, especially as I look at this

16 document.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Well, I thought the way you phrased it, Mr. Kay,

18 that there was a question mark at the end. You said: "Presumably you

19 signed it", and so I took that as a question: "Did you sign that?"

20 MR. KAY: That is how I was expressing it.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I took it as that. Do you accept that if it is

22 that, way did he sign it? Can he answer that question?

23 MR. KAY: Perhaps he would like to look at the end of document. I have a

24 typed copy here and this is not material that comes from me.

25 A. I do not see my signature here, apart from my name and surname being

1 typed out here.

2 Q. As you told the court, you gave a number of statements to various

3 people, and so that I can inform you this has been given to us by the

4 Prosecution.

5 A. Is this a question? I really do not understand.

6 Q. As I said, I was advising you as to how it came into my hands.

7 Perhaps you would like to look at the first page of that statement and

8 see whether it is information that has come from you. Have you looked

9 at it, the first page? Shall we just look at what it says, because at

10 the beginning it says: "Kozarac was shelled at 1345 on 26th May 1992,

11 and the Defence of Kozarac was ready and consisted of men who had

12 organised themselves on their own and had a few guns. There were some

13 40 people who had received very basic training from Captain Cirkin.

14 They knew exactly what they had to do to defend Kozarac. There were

15 also police reservists and a poorly armed TO. The reason that Kozarac

16 was shelled was that they, the so-called Serbian state," a passage of

17 text is missing. It then goes on on

18 28th May to describe a convoy being organised and going in the

19 direction of Trnopolje, and says that: "Refugees from Kozarac were

20 housed in the villages of Sivci, Duraci and Metrici." The account

21 then goes on to say: "I was assigned to the medical unit which was

22 based at the time in Rizvino's Hotel next to the old sawmill. Other

23 members of my team included Elvis Kljucanin and his brother Enis, Suad

24 and Senad Modronja, as well as Haris and Anes Becirevic. The

25 organised defence, which was very weak, was deployed partly in the

1 village of Jakupovici and partly in Kovici", and you refer to a

2 Chetnik ultimatum. "The seven of us whose names I have already

3 enumerated were led by Kusman, known as Kole, and Mujo Kuljenovic,

4 known as Kolera, went on fighting carrying out acts of sabotage

5 against their main strongholds."

6 Do you agree that account fits, at least in part, with what you have

7 told the court today?

8 A. Yes, partly it agrees.

9 Q. But it also refers to some 40 people having received basic training

10 from Captain Cirkin. They knew exactly what they had to do to defend

11 Kozarac, which is information you told me not very long ago that you

12 knew nothing about?

13 A. I do not know what was done in Captain Cirkin's, under Captain

14 Cirkin, because I am not going to speak about things I have not

15 information and about that training in case there was any real

16 training. I do not know anything. This second statement, I cannot

17 really remember it quite well.

18 Q. Let me make it clear. I am not criticising you. I am just asking

19 you about the accuracy of what you have told this court.

20 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, could we move on to the next question rather

21 than have flat assertions by the examiner which I think are confusing

22 for the witness and unfair.

23 MR. KAY: I was only trying to be helpful in case he felt I was being

24 disapproving.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The question says: "Let me make it clear. I am not

1 criticising you. I am just asking you about the accuracy of what you

2 have told this court."

3 MR. KAY: Yes.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The question is?

5 MR. KAY: The question is this. (To the witness): You have told us that

6 you were not part of any organised defence of Kozarac, and I am

7 suggesting to you that what you have told others on other occasions is

8 different. Which is the truth?

9 A. The full truth about my life is the one you heard today, and these

10 are some huge details about my whole life up until 1992 when I crossed

11 on to the free territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

12 Q. Did the group that you became involved with carry out acts of

13 sabotage that destroyed all of the checkpoints of the Serbs around

14 Kozarac?

15 A. We did not do that. We did not destroy all the checkpoints.

16 Q. Did you destroy by sabotage?

17 A. Some sabotage.

18 Q. But every checkpoint you tried to sabotage?

19 A. Some of them.

20 MR. KAY: Your Honour, that is a convenient moment before I move on to an

21 entirely new area.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think it is a good time to adjourn. We will

23 adjourn until tomorrow at 10 a.m., please.

24 (The court adjourned until the following day).

25