Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2928

1 THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL TRIBUNAL CASE NO. IT-94-1-T

2 FOR THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA

3 IN THE TRIAL CHAMBER

4 Thursday, 20th June 1996

5 (10.00 a.m.)

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, would you like to continue?

7 MR. TIEGER: Yes, thank you, your Honour. Before the Prosecution calls

8 the first witness, I would like to attempt -- I see Mr. Wladimiroff is

9 up.

10 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, I am just waiting.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: He cannot wait! He is ready. Very good. Go

12 ahead.

13 MR. TIEGER: I would like to attempt to clarify a misunderstanding that

14 may have arisen yesterday and I think needs attention. The witness

15 who testified yesterday was asked during cross-examination whether or

16 not he was shown a photograph of the accused when he was interviewed

17 by German authorities. The suggestion in context was clearly that his

18 identification of the accused was based on the fact that he was

19 previously shown a photograph of the accused rather than being based

20 on a lifetime of growing up in the same village with the accused.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: But you asked him how many photos he had seen, as I

22 recall -- I have not reviewed the transcript -- and it was 13 or 14 or

23 something like that.

24 MR. TIEGER: Correct. We do have the copy of the German record of the

25 display of photographic array that was shown to the witness and we

Page 2929

1 have the photo book with us which clearly discloses that the witness

2 was shown a book which contained 24 photographs of similar looking

3 individuals, and that he clearly recognised the photograph of the

4 accused Dusko Tadic among those photographs and selected them from

5 among all those photographs.

6 So, the actual interview proceeding clearly stands for the

7 opposite of what was suggested in court and I think it needs to be

8 brought to the attention of the court. If the court desires, we have

9 that document and can certainly tender it to the court for its review.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff? Do you have anything to say

11 regarding that issue?

12 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes, your Honour. We will object to the tendering of

13 these photographs. I am not sure we have got them all. We may have

14 some because we got the German file from the German lawyer and on

15 occasions we found that it was not complete so I am not sure we have

16 the same photographs here. But, principally, we object to the

17 tendering of those photographs for the very reasons I have given you

18 two days ago. I think we first have to be clear what is the probative

19 value of such photospread before it could be tendered, so we object to

20 that.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It would not be appropriate if we were to apply

22 strict, certainly, rules of evidence for the photographs to be

23 tendered in the form that you are suggesting. If you were going to

24 tender them, you would have to do that through the witness. Of

25 course, that raises the issue that we thought we did not have to

Page 2930

1 consider until several witnesses away. This witness though, however,

2 testified, as I recall, that he had known Tadic, had seen Tadic. I

3 recall also in cross-examination that you put to this witness that Mr.

4 Tadic did not know him, so I do not know what evidence is going to be

5 offered at a particular point in time.

6 Mr. Wladimiroff, you along with the written statement that you

7 made in court two days ago, you submitted something which I have not

8 reviewed actually but you had said that it was a submission from Dr.

9 Wagenaar. I do not know how we will consider that even without

10 hearing from Dr. Wagenaar. We had not decided at least, and we still

11 have not decided, whether we are going to hear from Dr. Wagenaar

12 before we even rule on that issue. So what I am trying to say is that

13 all of this is up in the air at this point. I would suggest that we

14 forget about the photos that you are suggesting, the 24 photos, unless

15 you want to recall the witness. If you wish to recall the witness,

16 then we will have to deal with these issues that we were putting off

17 for a moment.

18 MR. TIEGER: I understand what the court is saying. If I may, before I

19 conclude, just remind the court of the context in which this arose.

20 These were not presented by the Prosecution to show a further basis

21 for recognition. We were content to wait until the resolution of this

22 issue. The Defence, however, chose to suggest to the court that this

23 witness had been tainted by a procedure which, in fact, demonstrates

24 the witness's ability to recognise the defendant, because in a booklet

25 of numerous photos he was able to pick him out when the suggestion by

Page 2931

1 the Defence was quite the contrary. I think that is a different

2 matter than the Prosecution stepping forward trying to prematurely

3 raise this issue before the resolution of the matter that we had

4 previously discussed. That is why I raise it today.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Judge Stephen has pointed me to the portion of

6 the transcript -- that is on page 1925 -- where it is at least

7 discussed on redirect, as I recall. Is there anything that you wish

8 from the Trial Chamber at this point with respect to that testimony

9 other than to make this statement, Mr. Tieger?

10 MR. TIEGER: In the light of the court's response -----

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I know you wish us to accept everything that you

12 have said, but is there any action required by us at this time?

13 MR. TIEGER: No, nothing other than I was going to tender the documents.

14 I understand the court's response to that so I have nothing beyond

15 that.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, very good. Mr. Wladimiroff, do you have an

17 additional matter or something further than this matter?

18 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No other additional matter, your Honour. The Trial

19 Chamber ruled on our motion on the protection of witnesses on May 7th.

20 It would be very convenient for us if we could have the written

21 version before we leave for Bosnia. I am just drawing your attention

22 to the fact that we have not received that so far.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Just this morning I have seen the

24 decision that is in the process of translation. You understand that

25 it has to be translated into French before it is issued, but you will

Page 2932

1 receive that before you leave for Bosnia.

2 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Thank you.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, would you like to call your next

4 witness?

5 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. The Prosecution's next witness is

6 Nihad Haskic.

7 MR. NIHAD HASKIC, called.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you please take that oath that is before

9 you?

10 THE WITNESS (In Translation): I solemnly declare that I will speak the

11 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

12 (The witness was sworn)

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.

14 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour.

15 Examined by MR. TIEGER

16 Q. Sir, what is your name?

17 A. Nihad Haskic.

18 Q. Where were you born?

19 A. Prijedor.

20 Q. In what year were you born?

21 A. 54.

22 Q. What is your nationality or ethnic group?

23 A. Muslim.

24 Q. Were you raised in Prijedor? Did you grow up there?

25 A. I grew up in Trnopolje.

Page 2933

1 Q. Where did you go to school?

2 A. In Trnopolje, the first four grades, and the rest was in Prijedor.

3 Q. Did you perform compulsory service with the JNA?

4 A. I served in Banja Luka.

5 Q. When was that?

6 A. It was in 73 and 74.

7 Q. After performing your compulsory service did you return to Prijedor?

8 A. I returned.

9 Q. Had you been trained in auto mechanics and did you work in car repair

10 and sales after your return to Prijedor?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In 1979 did you open a business, a different kind of business?

13 A. I opened a kebab shop.

14 Q. Kebab is a food speciality, a meat speciality, is that right?

15 A. Yes, Banja Luka grill.

16 Q. Was your kebab shop a popular and well known shop in the area?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. In 1986 did you start a construction firm?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did that firm specialise in laying telephone phone cables?

21 A. It did.

22 Q. So you worked with the PTT, is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Sir, during the time you were growing up in Prijedor how were

25 relations between the ethnic groups in that area?

Page 2934

1 A. They were good.

2 Q. Did you know Dule Tadic before the war?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did he know you?

5 A. I believe so.

6 Q. How did the two of you happen to know each other?

7 A. We came to know each other. His was a prominent family, Tadic's,

8 karate.

9 Q. So he was a fairly well known person in opstina Prijedor?

10 A. Yes, the whole family.

11 Q. Were you well known as the owner of the kebab shop?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. If you do not mind, can you tell the court what your nickname was?

14 A. Cevap.

15 Q. Was Dule Tadic well known enough so that if he came to your shop and

16 you were not there, your wife might mention to you that he had visited

17 the shop?

18 A. Sometimes.

19 Q. Where was your wife from?

20 A. Hrnici.

21 Q. Did she know Dule Tadic well?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When you and Dule Tadic met in the street would you greet each other?

24 A. No, only "Hi, hi".

25 Q. Would you ever chat a bit, for example, would he mention that he had

Page 2935

1 been to your shop?

2 A. Sometimes he would say, "Your grilled meat is OK", and things like

3 that.

4 Q. Did you see him many times from the time you opened your shop until

5 the outbreak of the conflict?

6 A. I cannot say how many times. I do not remember, but on various

7 occasions.

8 Q. Would you say a few times or many times that you encountered Dule

9 Tadic and saw him?

10 A. Quite a number of times.

11 Q. What size was Dule Tadic? What kind of build did he have? How big a

12 man was he?

13 A. Dule Tadic was on the short side but he was very well, very stolid,

14 very sturdily built.

15 Q. Did he sometimes have a beard?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did he sometimes not have a beard?

18 A. Sometimes he had it and sometimes he did not. He did not always have

19 a beard.

20 Q. Mr. Haskic, I would like to ask you a few questions about the period

21 of time before the war. First, do you recall when the takeover of

22 Prijedor occurred?

23 A. It was in the night between 29th and 30th April in early morning

24 hours.

25 Q. Had there been any political tensions which preceded the takeover

Page 2936

1 that people in the area were generally aware of?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did the takeover come as a surprise to you and your friends and

4 family?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Were you in Prijedor on the morning that the takeover had occurred?

7 A. Yes, I was at home.

8 Q. What did you see in Prijedor that morning? What was the situation in

9 Prijedor?

10 A. The situation in Prijedor, there were very many soldiers and there

11 were military and the police in front of every important building and

12 there were check points; and flags had been hoisted in all the

13 buildings in Prijedor.

14 Q. What kind of flags?

15 A. Serb flags.

16 Q. Were there armed soldiers in the area and positioned in particular

17 places?

18 A. They were all armed.

19 Q. Were there any snipers in the area?

20 A. Snipers were on the tops of the buildings, on the roofs of the

21 buildings.

22 Q. Were you able to go to work that day?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Why not?

25 A. I could not because those at the PTT, had told me to stop with my

Page 2937

1 work, to discontinue my work.

2 Q. After that takeover did the situation for Muslims continue to

3 deteriorate?

4 A. It deteriorated drastically.

5 Q. Were Muslims losing their jobs?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Were they at physical risk?

8 A. Yes, and it grew worse with every day.

9 Q. Did you send your family away from the area?

10 A. I did on 15th May.

11 Q. To your knowledge, was that the last opportunity for people to leave

12 the area?

13 A. It was the last convoy of buses which left.

14 Q. After that did the attempt to travel run the risk of physical harm to

15 any Muslim who attempted it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Had the radio or television broadcast changed?

18 A. Yes, we could only watch Serbian television programme from then on.

19 Q. Were you aware when the attacks on Hambarine and Kozarac occurred?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How did you learn about those attacks?

22 A. We watched the attacks on Hambarine. We watched it as it is very

23 near Prijedor, and about the attack on Kozarac, I heard from the

24 refugees from Kozarac in Prijedor.

25 Q. You say "the refugees", some of the people from Kozarac fled to

Page 2938

1 Prijedor after the attack on Kozarac?

2 A. After the attack there was a flow of refugees which reached Prijedor.

3 Q. When did the cleansing of Prijedor begin, Prijedor town?

4 A. The ethnic cleansing of Prijedor began on Saturday, on May 30th.

5 Q. Where were you?

6 A. I was at home then.

7 Q. What neighbourhood in Prijedor town did you live in?

8 A. I lived in the part of Prijedor called Zagrad.

9 Q. What ethnic group lived in that neighbourhood?

10 A. That part they were Muslims.

11 Q. How did you first know that day, on May 30th, that something was

12 happening?

13 A. I learnt it by hearing early morning gunfire and then Radio Prijedor.

14 Q. What was it you heard on Radio Prijedor? What were you told was

15 occurring?

16 A. We heard that Prijedor had been attacked and that we should stay at

17 home.

18 Q. Were Muslims and Croats directed to do anything other than stay at

19 home?

20 A. They were told to stay at home.

21 Q. Were they told to do anything else while they were at home?

22 A. During that day they also said to hoist white flags on the houses.

23 Q. Did you hoist a white flag or hang a white sheet out of your window?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did many of your neighbours do so?

Page 2939

1 A. Many did and many did not.

2 Q. After hearing the radio broadcast and the sounds of gunfire, did you

3 stay home for a portion of the day?

4 A. I did for a while.

5 Q. In addition to hearing gunfire, did you also hear the sound of

6 shelling?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. From your house could you see any portions of Prijedor being shelled?

9 A. I could see part of the old town which was being shelled.

10 Q. What ethnic group lived in Stari Grad?

11 A. Muslims.

12 Q. What were you able to see was happening in Stari Grad?

13 A. Well, we could see a tank arrive and shell houses and how they went

14 to put houses on fire.

15 Q. Was the tank going from house to house?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. At some point during the day did you leave your house?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Why did you leave your house?

20 A. Because I thought that that might be safer, that it would be better

21 if I were among the crowd, one of the crowd.

22 Q. Where did you go?

23 A. I went to my neighbour's.

24 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if I could have this map marked as Prosecution

25 Exhibit 229 for identification, please?

Page 2940

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It will be 230, Mr. Tieger.

2 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour, I am sorry. Mr. Haskic, do you

3 recognise this map as showing portions of Prijedor town?

4 A. I do. I do recognise.

5 Q. Can you find the vicinity of your neighbourhood on that map?

6 A. I can.

7 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would tender this for admission.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

9 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 230 will be admitted.

11 MR. TIEGER: Can we place that on the elmo for a moment? Mr. Haskic, can

12 you point out on this map where your house was located?

13 A. I can, here.

14 Q. If you could do so on the actual document itself which is to your

15 right, we will all be able to see it.

16 A. Here. (The witness indicated on the map).

17 Q. Can you show us where the house of the neighbour, where you went

18 during the day is located?

19 A. Here. (The witness indicated on the map).

20 Q. Perhaps I can ask you to mark those places with a pen?

21 A. (The witness marked on the map).

22 Q. Is there also a mosque in that neighbourhood?

23 A. There is. The mosque was here.

24 Q. Thank you, sir. You can take your seat again. Did you remain in

25 your neighbour's house for a period of time?

Page 2941

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did your neighbour also have a garage?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did other people from the neighbourhood gather at your neighbour's

5 house?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you and those others from your neighbourhood stay in the house

8 during some portions of the day, in the garage during other portions

9 of the day?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Were you able to see from your neighbour's house what was happening

12 in Stari Grad or any other adjacent neighbourhood?

13 A. We could see what was happening in Stari Grad.

14 Q. Did the destruction of houses that you spoke of earlier continue?

15 A. During the whole day, yes.

16 Q. At some point did Serb troops reach your neighbourhood?

17 A. They did.

18 Q. What did they do when they first came into your neighbourhood?

19 A. They were shooting and saying, "Everybody come out".

20 Q. Were they shouting that? How were they saying that?

21 A. One had a kind of an amplifier, a voice amplifier.

22 Q. Can you recall what that soldier was ordering people using the

23 amplifier?

24 A. He was saying, "Come out. We will kill you".

25 Q. After the Serb troops entered and you were all ordered to come out,

Page 2942

1 did you and the others all leave the garage or house?

2 A. We came out of the garage and come out into the street.

3 Q. What were the Serb troops who came into your neighbourhood wearing?

4 A. They all had weapons.

5 Q. Were they in uniform?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What kinds of uniforms did they have?

8 A. Those were camouflage uniforms.

9 Q. Were they wearing anything on their heads?

10 A. Yes, they did. They had bright red beret hats.

11 Q. Were there any emblems or insignias on their uniforms?

12 A. They had Serb insignia on their arms, around their arms.

13 Q. First of all, in addition to you and the others who had been in the

14 garage, did other people from the neighbourhood gather in the street

15 in response to the orders?

16 A. We all came out, the whole town came out into the street.

17 Q. Can you show us using the plan where you were directed to go?

18 A. We were told to go towards the town.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is the map still on the elmo? 230?

20 MR. TIEGER: Sir, perhaps you can use that pointer and, turning to the map

21 to your right, show us where you and the others went?

22 A. We went here towards the town.

23 Q. So you went from the area of the garage up your street in the

24 direction of the town?

25 A. Yes, yes.

Page 2943

1 Q. Did you see what was happening at your own house when you walked up

2 your block toward the town?

3 A. As I was passing by my house, I saw that it was burning, it was all

4 in flames.

5 Q. Were any other houses on the block also burning?

6 A. Across from my house there were two houses that were burning.

7 Q. As you walked up the block did you observe whether or not any of your

8 neighbours were killed on the spot?

9 A. Yes, to the right Fuad Ekimovic was shot and was killed in his

10 backyard.

11 Q. So he was still in his yard when he was shot?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. He had not come out into the street as ordered by the Serb soldiers?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You have pointed out or you have shown us on the map where the

16 mosque was located. Did anything happen to the mosque that day?

17 A. That day the mosque was hit by a shell.

18 Q. Was the minaret still standing?

19 A. The minaret was -- half of it was destroyed.

20 Q. Where did the group of Muslims from the neighbourhood stop as you

21 walked up the street?

22 A. It stopped up there in front of a plateau where the buildings were

23 and this is where the buses were waiting for us.

24 Q. Can you show us on the map where that position was?

25 A. It is here. (The witness indicated on the map).

Page 2944

1 Q. Perhaps you can also mark that with a pen?

2 A. (The witness marked on the map).

3 Q. Are there any buildings in that area where the group stopped?

4 A. There are a cross.

5 Q. What kind of buildings?

6 A. Buildings where the SDK Bank was, then there was another bank a

7 little bit further, PBS Bank from Sarajevo, and there was also a

8 building where people lived and then underneath on the ground floor

9 there was a co-operative.

10 Q. You say there was buses waiting when you arrived. What happened to

11 the group of Muslims from your neighbourhood when you arrived at that

12 spot where the buses were waiting?

13 A. We were loaded on the buses.

14 Q. Were some people loaded on some buses and other people loaded on

15 others?

16 A. Men were loaded on the buses and women and children were moved away

17 to the other side, separated to the other side.

18 Q. Were there also elderly men among the group of people who had been

19 marched up the street to that location?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Where were the elderly men placed when the separation occurred?

22 A. Into the same buses.

23 Q. The buses with the men?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Where were you taken after you boarded the bus?

Page 2945

1 A. We were taken to the centre of the town in front of the hotel, Balkan

2 Hotel.

3 Q. What did you see there when you arrived?

4 A. We were there in the buses. We were not coming out, but we saw that

5 from all over the city, the town, the buses were coming to this point,

6 to that spot.

7 Q. On your way from the location where you had been placed on the bus to

8 the area of Hotel Balkan, did you see any bodies in the street?

9 A. I saw to the left of the market there were corpses.

10 Q. After being taken to the area of Hotel Balkan, where many other buses

11 came, where were the buses then taken?

12 A. There was a column and then we started moving and we were stopped in

13 front of the SUP building. The column was stopped in front of the SUP

14 building.

15 Q. That is the police building?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did policemen come on the buses?

18 A. Not into my bus but into other buses.

19 Q. Were some people taken off the buses?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What happened to those people?

22 A. Those people after a certain time were returned to the buses.

23 Q. Had any of them been beaten?

24 A. I think they were.

25 Q. About how long were the buses at the SUP building?

Page 2946

1 A. I could not tell you exactly, it looked like eternity. It was not

2 long. They did not stay there long.

3 Q. Did you know what was happening at that point to you and the others?

4 Did you know what was intended for you or where you were going to go?

5 A. We did not know. I did not know.

6 Q. Where did the buses then go?

7 A. The buses went on and were taking us on.

8 Q. As you were being transported, were you and the other prisoners

9 ordered to sit on the buses in a particular way?

10 A. Yes, we were. We were supposed to put our heads down and not watch

11 where we were moving.

12 Q. Where did your bus end up?

13 A. Then my bus came to Omarska.

14 Q. About what time of the day was that?

15 A. It was in the evening.

16 Q. When you got off the bus at Omarska what happened?

17 A. They took us out and they were -- we were made to stand against the

18 wall and they would search us and take everything that we had on us.

19 Q. Were any of the new prisoners beaten at that point?

20 A. Yes. During the search some people were hit, some were not.

21 Q. In addition to having your documents and valuables taken, were your

22 names recorded when you first got there?

23 A. Yes, all names were recorded.

24 Q. That night in what part of Omarska camp did you stay?

25 A. That night I stayed at the entrance by the restaurant, by a room by

Page 2947

1 the restaurant.

2 Q. Inside the restaurant building?

3 A. Next to the restaurant, a room next to the restaurant.

4 Q. Can I ask you to look at that model and can you just point out the

5 building you were in that night?

6 A. (The witness indicated on the model).

7 Q. Thank you. How long did you stay in that room?

8 A. I stayed in that room for a very short time, one night.

9 Q. Then were you moved to another room in the restaurant building?

10 A. No, at that time I went on to pista.

11 Q. Can you point out using the model where the pista is?

12 A. This is this pista. (The witness indicated on the model).

13 Q. While you were staying on the pista, did you remain there all day?

14 A. We did, we slept there on the pista.

15 Q. Did you sometimes sleep in any other portion of the camp?

16 A. We did. While we were on the pista, one night I spend in the white

17 house.

18 Q. Were you placed in a particular room in the white house along with

19 other prisoners from the pista?

20 A. I was placed with the detainees who came with me from the pista.

21 Q. While you were in the white house did you have an opportunity to see

22 any of the rooms other than the one in which you were placed?

23 A. When I entered I saw two rooms at the front part of the building.

24 Q. What was the condition of those rooms?

25 A. Terrible.

Page 2948

1 Q. What did you see?

2 A. To the left of the room to the left, I saw two people lying on the,

3 on the tiles, on the concrete.

4 Q. Did you see anything on the floor or the walls?

5 A. On the walls and on the floor there was an old blood.

6 Q. Approximately how long did you stay on the pista?

7 A. On the pista I stayed altogether about nine or 10 days.

8 Q. Where were you held after that?

9 A. After that I was transferred to the room in hangar.

10 Q. If I could ask for some assistance from Mr. Bos, perhaps we can

11 remove those top portions of the hangar building so we can see the

12 inside? Mr. Haskic, can I ask you to take a look at the model and see

13 if you can locate the room in which you were held after the pista and

14 you may get up to do so? If you do see it, will you please point to

15 it and then I will ask you to identify the number of the room. I

16 might mention to you that there are numbers on the model that are just

17 numbers used for the court's benefit. They do not correspond to any

18 of the numbers that were used for the rooms in the camp.

19 So if you can get up, take a look at the model and tell us if

20 you can see the room in which you were located, please point it out.

21 A. I cannot see from this side. Here. (The witness indicated on the

22 model).

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Can you see that, Mr. Wladimiroff?

24 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Hardly.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Why do you not stand up so you can see also?

Page 2949

1 MR. WLADIMIROFF: It is very difficult to see. I think if the light is a

2 little bit low, then the screen is not that wide.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Point one more time, sir. Mr. Haskic, would you

4 point one more time to the room where you were held and, Mr.

5 Wladimiroff, if you want to stand up so you can get a better view, you

6 may.

7 THE INTERPRETER: We cannot hear the witness as he is not speaking into

8 the microphone.

9 THE WITNESS: That room was No. 15. The entrance was here. Here, this is

10 the room. This is the entrance.

11 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Haskic, can you see the number or numbers which are on

12 the model in this room and, if so, can you just tell us what they are?

13 A. No. 7, No. 23, 23 and 7.

14 Q. Were you eventually moved from that room?

15 A. After interrogation I returned to the original room.

16 Q. Did you remain in that room in the restaurant building until you left

17 Omarska?

18 A. I did.

19 Q. You mentioned your interrogation. Did you know any of the

20 interrogators in Omarska camp?

21 A. I did.

22 Q. How did you happen to know them?

23 A. I knew them from the town because they were all from the police, from

24 SUP in Prijedor.

25 Q. Can you tell us who some of those interrogators were?

Page 2950

1 A. I was interrogated by Zjelko Tomcic -- Neso Tomcic and Neso Babic.

2 Q. What did Neso Tomcic and Neso Babic do before the war?

3 A. They were officers, active police officers, inspectors in SUP.

4 Q. Do you recall any other persons who were interrogators in Omarska and

5 who you knew from before the war?

6 A. I remember Drago Meakic.

7 Q. What did Drago Meakic do before the war?

8 A. The same, he was also an inspector, a SUP inspector.

9 Q. Was he active or retired immediately before the war?

10 A. Before the war, just before the war he retired.

11 Q. What other interrogators do you recall?

12 A. I remember Obrad Despotovic.

13 Q. What did he do before the war?

14 A. Also an inspector with SUP.

15 Q. Any others?

16 A. Rade Teic.

17 Q. Was he also associated with the SUP before the war?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you see these inspectors, these former inspectors, who were now

20 interrogators in Omarska arriving at camp?

21 A. Yes, we did.

22 Q. How often would they come to camp?

23 A. Every day, they were coming in the morning by buses.

24 Q. About what time would they leave?

25 A. They would leave in the afternoon hours.

Page 2951

1 Q. Do you know whether prisoners were beaten during the interrogations?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you see the conditions of these prisoners before and after their

4 interrogations?

5 A. After interrogation many -- not many -- all of them were severely

6 beaten up. They were black all over.

7 Q. Can you describe the conditions in Omarska while you were there?

8 A. The conditions in Omarska were intolerable. We all contracted

9 typhoid, dysentery, we had lice. There was daily ill-treatment.

10 People even slept in toilets. We were fed only one eighth of a loaf

11 of bread and a couple of spoonfuls of some liquid called "soup" in a

12 plate.

13 Q. Were you provided with drinking water?

14 A. We did have drinking water, but that water was not used before the

15 war as this was not good water, since it has a high content of iron

16 ore but we drank it there, nevertheless.

17 Q. Were women also held in Omarska?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Where were they held?

20 A. They spent days in the restaurant where we had our meals.

21 Q. Do you know whether or not there were any women held in the white

22 house?

23 A. I do not.

24 Q. In addition to the beatings which prisoners suffered during

25 interrogations, were prisoners beaten at other times?

Page 2952

1 A. They beat us whenever they could.

2 Q. Were prisoners beaten on the way to their meal?

3 A. Yes, then they would line up and we had to pass between those two

4 lines, between two rows of them, and as we went through they beat us.

5 Q. Were prisoners beaten when they attempted to use the toilet?

6 A. As one would go into and come out of the toilet, yes, they sometimes

7 would hit the prisoners or sometimes we hesitated to go to the toilet

8 because we knew that somebody would be beaten there.

9 Q. Did prisoners, many of whom were suffering from dysentery, find other

10 ways to relieve themselves rather than using the toilets where they

11 might be beaten?

12 A. We were in the hangar, in room 15. There one could wash one's hands,

13 but some people did relieve themselves there only to avoid going to

14 the toilet.

15 Q. Were prisoners called out at night from various portions of the camp?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. Were you able to hear what was sometimes happening to those

18 prisoners?

19 A. We could only see some of them when they would be brought back into

20 the room.

21 Q. What was their condition when they returned to the room?

22 A. Badly beaten.

23 Q. Did some prisoners fail to return after being called out of their

24 rooms at night?

25 A. Many did not return.

Page 2953

1 Q. How regularly were people called out from the rooms and failed to

2 return?

3 A. They were called out every night.

4 Q. Did you see corpses in Omarska?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Where did you see them?

7 A. I saw them on the grass when we were on the pista, on the grass near

8 the white house.

9 Q. Would you see them in the morning?

10 A. During the day.

11 Q. Would the corpses then be removed at some point during the day?

12 A. At times they would stay there for a day or two.

13 Q. First of all, were you taken to Manjaca after leaving Omarska?

14 A. When we went to Manjaca, the first night we spent on the bus. We did

15 not enter the camp.

16 Q. Eventually after arriving in Manjaca, were you weighed by the Red

17 Cross?

18 A. The Red Cross examined us only a couple of days later.

19 Q. What was your weight when arriving in Manjaca?

20 A. 51 kilogrammes.

21 Q. What was your weight before coming to Omarska?

22 A. 83 kilogrammes.

23 Q. Did you ever see any Serbian officials from Prijedor other than the

24 SUP inspectors or former SUP inspectors coming to Omarska?

25 A. The head of the SUP from Prijedor used to come, Simo Drljaca.

Page 2954

1 Q. How often did Drljaca come to Omarska camp?

2 A. I do not understand.

3 Q. How frequently did Drljaca come to Omarska camp?

4 A. I could see that, that is, I could see him several times as I was on

5 the pista.

6 Q. Did you know Simo Drljaca before the war?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. How did you know him?

9 A. We played football together and I knew him from my restaurant. He

10 regularly came there.

11 Q. When you saw him in Omarska camp did he come to the camp with anyone

12 else from outside the camp?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Who was that?

15 A. Active duty soldier of the former JNA, Milovan Milutinovic.

16 Q. Did you ever see Simo Drljaca with members of the camp administration

17 -- with the camp Commander, for example?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Who was the Commander of the camp?

20 A. Zelko Mejakic.

21 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, may I have this marked for identification? It

22 is a still photograph taken from a video which is already in evidence

23 which is No. 184.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That will be 231, is it?

25 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour, that is correct. Mr. Haskic, do you

Page 2955

1 recognise the persons shown in this photograph?

2 A. I do.

3 Q. Who is shown in that photograph?

4 A. In this photograph, Simo Drljaca to the right and Milovan Milutinovic

5 is next to him on the other side.

6 Q. Could that photograph be placed on the monitor, please?

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to 231?

8 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That will be admitted.

10 MR. TIEGER: Using your pointer, sir, can you first point out Simo

11 Drljaca?

12 A. Yes, this is him.

13 Q. Now point out Milovan Milutinovic.

14 A. Here.

15 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether or not Serbian officials from outside

16 Prijedor ever visited the camp?

17 A. Once while I was on the pista a helicopter arrived, but I did not see

18 who was on it.

19 Q. Were you told by anyone what the purpose of the helicopter visit was?

20 A. As detainees, we could only guess, but none of the guards told us

21 anything.

22 Q. Mr. Haskic, you have told us about prisoners being regularly taken

23 from rooms and being beaten. During the time you were in Omarska, do

24 you recall an incident when Emir Beganovic and Senad Muslimovic were

25 called from your room?

Page 2956

1 A. I do. They were with me in the room.

2 Q. Which room were you in at that time?

3 A. At the time I was in the hangar on the upper floor.

4 Q. What time of the day approximately were they called out?

5 A. It was in the afternoon.

6 Q. Do you remember the approximate date?

7 A. It was on June 18th.

8 Q. Do you recall who was called out first?

9 A. I think Beganovic was called out first.

10 Q. Did you see his condition after he returned?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What was his condition?

13 A. Appalling.

14 Q. Did he have any visible injuries?

15 A. Yes, there was a very visible injury. There was a cut on his head.

16 Q. Could you see other signs that he had been beaten?

17 A. Yes. He was black all over when he took off his clothes.

18 Q. What was Muslimovic's condition when he returned?

19 A. Muslimovic's condition was better than Beganovic's.

20 Q. Had he also been badly beaten?

21 A. Yes, but less than Beganovic.

22 Q. Had you heard the sounds of beating or sounds of pain or screams from

23 the prisoners when Beganovic and Muslimovic had been called out?

24 A. All we could hear were cries of pain.

25 Q. After Beganovic and Muslimovic had been called out and beaten, did

Page 2957

1 you hear screams from other prisoners?

2 A. Yes, we heard terrible screams.

3 Q. Is there any way to describe those screams?

4 A. No, it is beyond description. They were horrible. Your blood froze

5 in your veins when you heard those screams.

6 Q. Where were those screams coming from?

7 A. Those screams came from below us.

8 Q. From the ground floor of the hangar building?

9 A. Yes, from the ground floor of the hangar, yes.

10 Q. How long did the screams of the prisoners last?

11 A. I could not say, to us it looked like eternity. I do not know how

12 long.

13 Q. Did you later learn which prisoners had been called out and whose

14 screams you had heard on that day?

15 A. We learned that the next day when we went to the toilet.

16 Q. Who were the prisoners whose screams you had heard?

17 A. We heard that it had been Eno Alic, Jasmin Hrnic and Karabasic.

18 Q. Did you know Karabasic's first name?

19 A. Emir Karabasic.

20 Q. Did you know these men from before the conflict?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What was their ethnic group?

23 A. Muslim.

24 Q. What did Emir Karabasic do before the conflict?

25 A. Emir was an active duty policeman.

Page 2958

1 Q. What did Eno Alic do?

2 A. Alic was a driver in a company, a truck driver.

3 Q. What did Jasmin Hrnic do?

4 A. Jasmin Hrnic had his own business, shipping business, delivery.

5 Q. What part of Prijedor were these men from?

6 A. Well, Jasmin was from Hrnici and the other two were from Kozarac.

7 Q. Are you related to Jasmin Hrnic?

8 A. He is my wife's brother.

9 Q. After you and your family managed to escape from Bosnia, did you and

10 your family make efforts to find out if Jasmin Hrnic was still alive?

11 A. We tried all we could through all possible organisations.

12 Q. Did you make every possible contact with every organisation that

13 might have information about his whereabouts?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you contact people, refugees, in various countries to find out if

16 they had any knowledge of Jasko's whereabouts?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did any international agency have any record of Jasmin Hrnic

19 surviving the war?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Had any survivor of Omarska or refugee from the area of Prijedor seen

22 Jasmin Hrnic alive after he was taken to Omarska?

23 A. After Omarska? I do not understand.

24 Q. I will rephrase that. Had anyone whom you attempted to contact seen

25 Jasmin alive since the war?

Page 2959

1 A. No.

2 Q. You mentioned the date of June 18th. Is there any particular reason

3 why you are able to remember that date, or that you recall that date

4 as being the date of the incident in which Muslimovic and Beganovic

5 were called out and heard the screams from downstairs?

6 A. Because that morning I learnt about that thing, about what had

7 happened, and it simply remained imprinted in my memory.

8 Q. Mr. Haskic, during the time you were in Omarska camp, did you ever

9 see Dule Tadic in Omarska?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. On how many occasions?

12 A. I saw him twice -- no, three times.

13 Q. Did you see him with your own eyes on three occasions?

14 A. Twice I saw him with my own eyes.

15 Q. Where were you the first time you saw Dule Tadic in Omarska?

16 A. The first time I was on the pista then.

17 Q. So that would have been in the early part of June shortly after you

18 arrived at the camp?

19 A. It happened while I was on the pista.

20 Q. Using the pointer, can you show us on the model where you were on the

21 pista when you saw Dule Tadic on this first occasion?

22 A. (The witness indicated on the model) Here.

23 Q. So approximately in the middle part of the pista?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is that a little toward the hangar?

Page 2960

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were you standing, sitting or lying down?

3 A. At that particular moment we were sitting.

4 Q. Were there occasions while you were on the pista when prisoners were

5 forced to lie down?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When would that occur?

8 A. Well, it happened when some strange things would happen in the camp,

9 then we would be ordered to lie down.

10 Q. Were there occasions while you were on the pista when prisoners who

11 were sitting down were ordered to look down to the ground?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Were there times when prisoners on the pista were sitting down and

14 did not have orders to either look to the ground or lie down on the

15 pista?

16 A. At times we could look around freely.

17 Q. On this occasion, the first time you saw Dule Tadic, which direction

18 were you facing?

19 A. I was facing towards the end, towards the corner.

20 Q. Were you facing the hangar building or restaurant building?

21 A. We were facing the canteen.

22 Q. Where was Dule Tadic when you saw him?

23 A. Dule Tadic was here. (The witness indicated on the model).

24 Q. That would be at the corner of the restaurant building?

25 A. On the corner of this building here. (The witness indicated on the

Page 2961

1 model) The hangar is across the road.

2 Q. So that would be the corner of the menza building which is closest to

3 you, the front corner, is that correct?

4 A. Yes, this corner here.

5 Q. Did anything in particular draw your attention to that area or did

6 you just look over and see him?

7 A. There was a rumour spread that Dule had come to the camp. Among the

8 inmates the rumour was spread.

9 Q. When you saw him there, was he alone or with others?

10 A. No, there was a group.

11 Q. Approximately how many?

12 A. Well, three or four. That was a group.

13 Q. Do you recall what the people in that group were wearing?

14 A. Camouflage uniforms.

15 Q. Were they armed?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What were they doing when you saw them?

18 A. Standing.

19 Q. Do you recall approximately how long they remained there in that

20 corner of the restaurant building?

21 A. I do not.

22 Q. Did you see where they went after they left that area?

23 A. They went towards the restaurant, towards the canteen. (The witness

24 indicated on the model).

25 Q. During the time that Dule Tadic and the others were standing in the

Page 2962

1 spot you indicated, were you staring at them constantly?

2 A. No, no, I was not.

3 Q. Were you looking up and then looking away so that you would not be

4 seen by Dule Tadic or any of the guards looking at him?

5 A. We just cast a glance so as not to be noticed.

6 Q. Do you know exactly how many times you looked at him or for how long

7 a period you looked at him?

8 A. Well, I cannot say for how long and how many times but, at any rate,

9 enough to know that it was him.

10 Q. On the second occasion when you saw Dule Tadic, where were you

11 sitting?

12 A. The second time I was sitting near to this side. (The witness

13 indicated on the model).

14 Q. So you were toward one side of the pista, the side of the pista away

15 from the white house, is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Approximately in the middle of the pista, that is, approximately

18 between the hangar and the restaurant building?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Which direction were you facing?

21 A. We were facing, facing the canteen again.

22 Q. On this occasion where was Dule Tadic when you saw him?

23 A. Dule Tadic was here.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It would help if you could focus on the area where

25 the witness points. Mr. Tieger, would you ask him to point again,

Page 2963

1 please?

2 MR. TIEGER: Yes. Mr. Haskic, if you could indicate with the pointer once

3 again where Dule Tadic was when you saw him on this second occasion?

4 A. Here. (The witness indicated on the model).

5 Q. Again you have indicated a position next to the restaurant building

6 ---

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. -- on the corner furthest from the white house and across from the

9 hangar building?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. KAY: For the purposes of clarification, your Honour, the first time

12 the witness was asked where he was sitting, it did not come up on the

13 video monitor. I wonder if that might be indicated so that we could

14 see it on our screens?

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, would you do that quickly, please, and

16 then we will stand in recess? The reason, Mr. Tieger, is that the

17 view is obstructed of the Defence. They cannot see over the exhibit.

18 That is why I ask.

19 MR. TIEGER: I appreciate that. Mr. Haskic, I want to return for a

20 moment, if I may, to the first occasion when you saw Dule Tadic in

21 camp.

22 A. On the first occasion he was here on the corner and on the second

23 occasion he was a bit nearer to that place over there. (The witness

24 indicated on the model).

25 Q. Can you show us with the pointer where you were on the first

Page 2964

1 occasion?

2 A. On this occasion I was here.

3 Q. Approximately in the middle of the pista then?

4 A. Yes.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you, Mr. Tieger. We will stand in recess for

6 20 minutes.

7 (11.30 a.m.)

8 (The short adjournment)

9 (12.00 p.m.)

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, would you continue, please?

11 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour, thank you.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It looks like the model -- it is not my eyes, is it?

13 No. Mr. Tieger?

14 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. For explanation, your Honour, as you

15 noted, the model is tilted. That is so it will aid the camera view.

16 Mr. Haskic, we have the benefit of some additional equipment

17 which will enable both the court and all the attorneys in the

18 courtroom to see the areas which you previously indicated. So, I am

19 going to ask you to once again indicate some of the areas you showed

20 us before. When you point them out, I will ask you to do so slowly so

21 the camera can catch it and so that everyone in the courtroom can see

22 where that is. I realise that will probably involve you getting up and

23 down a couple of times, but I ask for your help with that.

24 First of all, sir, can I ask you to show us once again the

25 part of the hangar you were in when Beganovic and Muslimovic were

Page 2965

1 called out and on that occasion when you heard the screams coming from

2 the ground floor of the hangar, the part of the camp you were in at

3 that time, if you could show us?

4 A. I was in room No. 15, here. (The witness indicated on the model)

5 Exactly here. Exactly here.

6 Q. As we looked at that area, it showed a fairly large area with two

7 smaller rooms or areas within it. What were those two areas inside

8 that larger area?

9 A. Those two areas to the left was the part where I was and this is

10 where we used to wash our hands, and to the right was a bathroom where

11 people took baths.

12 Q. There was also a door shown on the far side of that room, not where

13 you showed us you entered, but on the other side of that room. Was

14 that door kept open or closed?

15 A. Those, that door from our side was closed.

16 Q. Sir, if I could ask you to point out for the court where you were and

17 where Dule Tadic was on the first occasion when you saw him in

18 Omarska?

19 A. I cannot reach.

20 Q. You can walk around. You can use the pointer and perhaps you can

21 walk around as well.

22 A. Here. (The witness indicated on the model).

23 Q. Is that where you were?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Where was Dule Tadic?

Page 2966

1 A. Here in this area.

2 Q. Do you see those yellow markers to your left on the witness table?

3 Can you take the one marked "W1" and place it where you were on that

4 first occasion, and can you take the one marked "T1" and place it

5 where Dule Tadic was on that first occasion? Mr. Haskic, can you point

6 out where you were, where you were sitting on the second occasion when

7 you saw Dule Tadic and where Dule Tadic was on that second occasion?

8 A. I was here and he was approximately here at the same spot, and I was

9 here.

10 Q. Can you take the marker marked "W2" and "T2"? As long as you are up

11 there now, I know you referred to a third occasion, can you show us

12 where you were on that third occasion?

13 A. I was here towards the end, towards the white house.

14 Q. Can you take the marker marked "W3", and can you take the marker

15 marked "T3" and show us where the group you saw on that third occasion

16 was?

17 A. This was all mostly in one area.

18 Q. If you could resume your seat, please? Mr. Haskic, I would like to

19 direct your attention once more to the second occasion when you saw

20 Dule Tadic in Omarska. You have already shown us where you were

21 sitting and you have told us in what direction you were facing.

22 Approximately how long after the first time you had seen Dule Tadic

23 was it when you saw him for a second time?

24 A. It was a very short period of time, perhaps a day or two.

25 Q. On the second occasion was Dule Tadic alone or was he with others?

Page 2967

1 A. He was also a group of three to four people.

2 Q. How were the members of this group dressed?

3 A. Also camouflage uniforms.

4 Q. What were Dule Tadic and the other members of the group doing when

5 you saw them this second time?

6 A. They were standing and pointing something with their hands.

7 Q. Had anything drawn your attention to the area where Dule Tadic and

8 the others were?

9 A. No, just the rumour that went through the inmates that this group

10 with Dule arrived to the camp.

11 Q. On this second occasion were you able to look long enough and enough

12 times to make certain that it was Dule Tadic?

13 A. I do not know how many times I could glance, but enough to see that

14 it was him.

15 Q. You mentioned that there was a third occasion and you have shown us

16 on the model where you were at that time. Were you again sitting on

17 the pista on that third occasion?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In what direction were you facing?

20 A. Also facing the canteen.

21 Q. On this third occasion did you also hear that Dule Tadic was in camp?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you look to see if you could see him?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What did you see?

Page 2968

1 A. I did not see him. I only saw him with his back turned.

2 Q. So on this third occasion, unlike the other two, although you heard

3 he was in camp, you were not able to actually see his face on this

4 occasion and make sure it was him?

5 A. No.

6 Q. The group that you saw who had their backs turned to you, what were

7 they wearing?

8 A. Also camouflage uniforms.

9 Q. Can you recall about how long after the second time you saw Dule

10 Tadic in camp it was that you saw this group which had its back turned

11 to you?

12 A. It was a very brief period of time, also perhaps a day or two.

13 Q. Mr. Haskic, I realise there is a lot of equipment here in the

14 courtroom but I would ask you to look carefully around the courtroom

15 and tell us if you see Dule Tadic here in the courtroom? Can you look

16 around, please, and tell us if Dule Tadic is here today?

17 THE ACCUSED TADIC: Ya sam Dusko Tadic. (The accused Tadic rose to his

18 feet and identified himself as Dusko Tadic).

19 THE WITNESS: Yes, he is here.

20 Q. Sir, do you recognise that man as being Dule Tadic?

21 A. Yes, I recognise him.

22 Q. Are you absolutely sure that this is the man you saw on two occasions

23 on the pista in Omarska camp?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. TIEGER: I have nothing further.

Page 2969

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The record will reflect that the witness identified

2 the accused. Mr. Wladimiroff and Mr. Tieger, I think that we need to

3 talk with you at a recess regarding this matter. Cross-examination?

4 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour.

5 Cross-examined by MR. KAY

6 Q. Mr. Haskic, I first of all want to ask you some questions about how

7 well you knew Dusko Tadic. First of all, have you ever lived in

8 Kozarac?

9 A. Not in Kozarac. I lived in Trnopolje.

10 Q. In 1992 you were living in Prijedor, how long had you lived in

11 Prijedor for?

12 A. I lived in Prijedor from 1980.

13 Q. The restaurant that you had, the Banja Luka Grill, where was that?

14 A. That was in the old market.

15 Q. Is that in Prijedor?

16 A. Prijedor.

17 Q. Your businesses, were they in Prijedor as well?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. When you say that you knew Dusko Tadic, would I be right in saying

20 that you did not see him regularly when you were in Prijedor?

21 A. No.

22 Q. How Dusko Tadic spent his time when you were living in Prijedor you

23 would be unable to help this court?

24 A. I would not.

25 Q. Any periods that Dusko Tadic may have lived away from the Kozarac

Page 2970

1 region, you would be unable to help this court?

2 A. I would not.

3 Q. You told the court this morning that you were part of a group of

4 people who left a house that was not your own as a result of a command

5 from military forces?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. The house that you were in at that time was a building owned by a

8 friend of yours?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Was he a relative?

11 A. No.

12 Q. But a number of other people like you had taken refuge where he

13 lived?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. It would be right to say, would it not, that when you were taken into

16 custody on that day by those people that that changed your life?

17 A. When they locked us up in the camp, yes, that changed my life.

18 Q. From that day onwards, the time that you had previously spent

19 building up your businesses, providing your home in Prijedor, was

20 something that you had lost for ever?

21 A. I lost it.

22 Q. Those events that occurred to you meant that you had to start a new

23 life elsewhere and there has been no opportunity for you to go back to

24 your home and resume your previous existence?

25 A. It is not possible even today to go back to my house.

Page 2971

1 Q. Presumably, the people who did that to you, you feel a great deal of

2 animosity towards?

3 A. I do not understand.

4 Q. Do you have feelings of hatred to those people who on that day caused

5 your life to be altered?

6 A. I cannot judge about those people.

7 Q. You know that Dusko Tadic has been charged with the murder of your

8 wife's brother?

9 A. I know that.

10 Q. You have given a number of interviews, is that right, to the media

11 concerning those events that took place in the summer of 1992 that you

12 experienced?

13 A. I did not give, I only gave one interview.

14 Q. You did not give more than one interview, sir?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Very well. Do you recollect that in July 1994 you were interviewed

17 by people in Germany through an interpreter who questioned you about

18 events in Prijedor as well as Omarska?

19 A. I remember.

20 Q. I would like you to look here at a document that is in German but

21 signed by you upon each page. Your Honour, for record purposes, that

22 would be, as I understand we are moving up the scale now, I think D18.

23 Mr. Haskic, if you would like to just look at that document

24 that I have put before you and you can see that it has typing on the

25 front, but it also contains your signature at the foot of the page?

Page 2972

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is that right? Do you remember ---

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. -- being questioned in Germany about what had happened in Prijedor

5 and Omarska?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I think on that occasion there was a police inspector present or

8 chief criminal investigator, do you remember? Yes?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And an interpreter who read back to you in your own language what you

11 had told the chief criminal investigator?

12 A. That interpreter was an Albanian, an Albanian in Albanian language.

13 Q. Did the interpreter not speak to you in Serbo-Croatian and you

14 acknowledged that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Yes. I would just like you to turn to page 37 of that statement.

17 They are numbered in the top right-hand corner. You can see your

18 signature is on that page along with those of other people; is that

19 right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you, in fact, speak German?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You see, what I am going to suggest to you now is that on that

24 occasion, on 5th July 1994, you gave a different story as to what had

25 happened to you in Prijedor.

Page 2973

1 A. I told this court here what happened to me, the same statement.

2 Q. Did you not say on that occasion that the Serbs reached your house at

3 3 o'clock in the afternoon?

4 A. That could have been only a mistake in translation.

5 Q. That the Serbs rang the bell and "I opened the door"?

6 A. No, the Serbs only shot with their weapons. I was not in the house

7 at that time.

8 Q. "... that the Serbs demanded that I came out into the street", did you

9 say that?

10 A. I cannot remember.

11 Q. It is very different, is it not, from what you have told this court

12 today about what happened to you on that day that Muslims in Prijedor

13 were rounded up?

14 A. Today I said exactly what happened in Prijedor.

15 Q. When you told the court this morning about moving down your own

16 street and there you saw your house on fire, did that happen?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you see Fuad Ekimovic being shot or did you just see his body?

19 A. As we were walking, I heard firing and we were passing by the house.

20 I saw him lying dead by the house.

21 Q. You see, did you tell people in Germany on this occasion: "There I

22 could see a Serbian soldier shoot my neighbour, Fuad Ekimovic, in the

23 head"?

24 A. I saw them shoot -- I heard a shot, and I saw him dead in the yard.

25 Q. Did you go on to say that, in fact, about 50 people from your street

Page 2974

1 were taken to a tower block where buses were waiting?

2 A. They were loaded on to buses. There were very many people. About 50

3 people would be loaded on to one bus and I knew various people there.

4 Q. You see, what I am suggesting is that you have made up stories of

5 things that you say that you have seen out of revenge for what

6 happened to you?

7 A. I did not invent it.

8 Q. When you say you saw Dusko Tadic two or three times in Omarska, that

9 those sightings have been made up?

10 A. No, I did not invent it.

11 Q. Just looking at the first time you say you saw Mr. Tadic, how many

12 people were with you on the pista at that time?

13 A. I could not say exactly. I could not say the number of people who

14 were there.

15 Q. When you gave the statement in Germany you said there were about

16 1,000 other prisoners on the asphalt area in the camp, would that be

17 right?

18 A. There were many.

19 Q. Would you agree or disagree with that figure of 1,000?

20 A. I could not say exactly.

21 Q. On the pista at that time, was that where you spent both the day and

22 night?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. After the short stay in the restaurant building when you were first

25 taken to Omarska, that was the place where you were in for quite a few

Page 2975

1 days?

2 A. When I arrived at Omarska I spent one day in the room next to the

3 restaurant.

4 Q. You then spent, are you able to tell us how many days, on the pista

5 for day and night?

6 A. On the pista I spent 10 days as the maximum.

7 Q. This was at a time when the weather was very hot?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The sun was beating down on the pista and you had no shade?

10 A. We had shade from the hangar only in the morning hours.

11 Q. The rest of the day you were under the sun?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. The area of the pista was full of men like you?

14 A. Not all of the pista was filled up.

15 Q. The camp was very crowded at that time, was it not?

16 A. There were very many people in the camp.

17 Q. Do you know or was any reason given to you that you had to stay out

18 there because there was no room to put you anywhere else?

19 A. The pista?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. We were on the pista because there was no room elsewhere.

22 Q. When you were on the pista were you free to roam about, to walk?

23 A. Only from time to time.

24 Q. The rest of the time you had to sit with your head between your legs

25 looking at the ground?

Page 2976

1 A. Yes, or to lie down.

2 Q. Were you given access to the canteen at that time?

3 A. No, there was no canteen.

4 Q. How were you fed when you were on the pista?

5 A. Like other prisoners, one eighth of a loaf of bread and a few spoons

6 full of something of some liquid.

7 Q. On the pista did you eat that outside or did you go into the main

8 restaurant building?

9 A. We went to a building, to the restaurant.

10 Q. While you were on the pista were there any sanitary arrangements for

11 you?

12 A. No, not on the pista. There were inside, in the building next to the

13 restaurant.

14 Q. The first time you say that you saw Dusko Tadic there, there would

15 have been a large number of people between you and the man that you

16 say you saw?

17 A. No, there were very many behind me and to the side of me.

18 Q. Looking at the place where you marked the model this morning, you put

19 yourself in an area not very far away from the hangar?

20 A. Closer, nearer to the hangar than to the restaurant.

21 Q. Quite a substantial degree closer to the hangar than the restaurant,

22 would you not agree?

23 A. I could not really say how closer.

24 Q. Somehow you say that on that day more people were behind you and to

25 the side than sitting in the other area of the pista?

Page 2977

1 A. We were in a specific part of the pista.

2 Q. That area of the pista, was it marked by anything?

3 A. There was concrete, something like concrete, concrete something, like

4 concrete vases.

5 Q. In a box shape?

6 A. Yes, yes square shaped. There was soil in them.

7 Q. The sort of thing that in better times maybe had flowers in them?

8 A. I would not know.

9 Q. They were between the edge of the restaurant building up to the

10 hangar on both side?

11 A. No. Those objects were on both sides of the building of the hangar

12 to where we were, on both sides.

13 Q. Was that the area that you were within bounded by the concrete tubs?

14 A. No, they were individual boxes. They did not run the length of it.

15 Q. But looking at where you placed yourself this morning as having been

16 sitting on that first occasion when you say you saw Dusko Tadic, would

17 you not agree with me that there would have been many people between

18 you and that figure?

19 A. There were many people on the pista, and ahead of me there were not

20 many people.

21 Q. On the second occasion you are again closer to the hangar than the

22 restaurant building?

23 A. Closer.

24 Q. And that is where you marked those positions this morning?

25 A. Correct.

Page 2978

1 Q. Again, were there not many people between you and the person you say

2 was Dusko Tadic?

3 A. At that time there were more since I was nearer to the hangar.

4 Q. As you told the Court this morning, on that first time you just cast

5 a glance so as not to be noticed?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. There were dangers for you in looking up and around because guards

8 did not permit that, is that right?

9 A. They did not.

10 Q. Again on that second occasion all you could do was glance?

11 A. To glance enough to see that it was he.

12 Q. What I suggest to you is that even if you did see someone in those

13 kinds of circumstances, that in fact that was not Dusko Tadic that you

14 said a person was?

15 A. No, it was a group of three or four persons.

16 Q. Can you name on any of those three occasions that you saw him any of

17 the other people who were with him?

18 A. The third time I only heard that Dvca had come with him but I did not

19 see him.

20 Q. On any of those occasions could you name any of the people that you

21 say he was with?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Can you name any of the people who were sitting near you? Did you sit

24 with the same group of people on the pista?

25 A. Different. It varied every day depending on who sat where.

Page 2979

1 Q. Can you remember any of the people sitting with you on either of

2 those occasions that you say you saw Dusko Tadic?

3 A. I cannot remember. I cannot remember the name.

4 Q. You have described camouflage uniforms. Can you tell us anything

5 about the appearance of the man you say you saw, a description?

6 A. Yes, he had a camouflage uniform. He was rather short and he was

7 very well built.

8 Q. Did you notice anything else about the appearance of the man, shaven

9 or unshaven, beard or no beard?

10 A. He had a beard.

11 Q. How long?

12 A. I could not answer that.

13 Q. You cannot picture it now?

14 A. The length of the beard, I cannot determine.

15 Q. Length of hair?

16 A. I cannot.

17 MR. KAY: Thank you. I have no further questions.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, redirect?

19 Re-examined by Mr. Tieger.

20 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. Mr. Haskic, you mentioned that the

21 interpreter when you spoke with the German authorities was Albanian.

22 Is there a difference in the way this interpreter spoke to you than

23 the way a native speaker does?

24 A. A drastic difference.

25 Q. At times did you have some difficulty understanding the interpreter?

Page 2980

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was it sometimes difficult to understand all the things the Albanian

3 interpreter said?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can I ask you to look at page 35 in that statement? In the last

6 paragraph there is a reference to what happened in Prijedor and it

7 says it was a "Nacht und Nebel" attack. Do you what "Nacht und

8 Nebel" is?

9 A. I do not.

10 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, may I step forward to the model just for a

11 moment? It is difficult for me to see from here.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes.

13 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Haskic, was the entire pista area from the back of the

14 hangar to the doorstep of the restaurant building occupied by

15 prisoners?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Was there room in front of the restaurant building for ----

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was that for guards to walk into, for prisoners to go to get their

20 meals and so on?

21 A. Yes, and so that the guards can move.

22 Q. So the portion of the pista which the prisoners occupied was set back

23 from the restaurant building?

24 A. Yes, it was. There was some empty space.

25 Q. Now you tried to put that rather big yellow marker in the approximate

Page 2981

1 area where you were on the first occasion when you saw Dule Tadic in

2 Omarska, is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you recall on that first occasion, however, that you were closer

5 to the front of the group of prisoners in the section of the pista

6 that the prisoners sat, and there were more prisoners behind you than

7 in front of you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Mr. Haskic, during the years that you were familiar with Dule Tadic

10 did you know him to have a heavy growth of beard or hair on his face?

11 Was his hair dark and did it grow quickly on his face?

12 A. He had a black beard and, yes, he had a very strong beard.

13 Q. If he did not shave for a few days did he already have the appearance

14 of a beard?

15 A. Yes.

16 MR. KAY: I think the witness said he had a black beard rather than not

17 shaving for a few days. I think my learned friend has taken a step,

18 your Honour, that is not in evidence.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I will overrule your objection. You can enquire in

20 cross-examination. He just asked if he had not shaved for a few days

21 would he have a beard. You can question him on cross-examination

22 about what he said when you spoke to him.

23 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Haskic, I asked you a few moments ago whether Mr.

24 Tadic's hair was dark and whether it grew quickly on his face. You

25 said he had a black beard and he had a very strong beard?

Page 2982

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. By that did you mean that he was the kind of person whose hair grew

3 quickly and which showed up on his face quickly if he did not shave?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Mr. Haskic, did you contact the German authorities to speak with them

6 or did they contact you?

7 A. They did. They called me.

8 Q. Did they tell you they understood you had been in Omarska camp and

9 that you might have information about what happened in camp and what

10 happened in Prijedor generally?

11 A. I do not know whether they knew before that, but they knew I had been

12 to the camp.

13 Q. Did you go to see the German authorities for the purpose of speaking

14 to them about the attack on Prijedor and your experiences in camp?

15 A. About the attack on Prijedor and about the camp.

16 Q. During the course of that discussion did they ask you about Dule

17 Tadic? Did you receive any interpretation sir?

18 A. I could not remember. I could not say.

19 Q. Did you tell the German authorities when you spoke to them that you

20 had seen Dule Tadic on the pista in Omarska?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Sir, are you telling the court the truth this day?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Would you invent any portion of your ----

25 A. No.

Page 2983

1 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, sir. I have nothing further.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, cross-examination?

3 MR. KAY: Just one matter, your Honour.

4 Further Cross-Examined by Mr. Kay.

5 Q. Mr. Haskic, can you confirm this, that the statement you gave in

6 Germany on 5th July 1994 was made in relation to proceedings against

7 Mr. Tadic that were within the German Criminal Court?

8 A. I could not say.

9 MR. KAY: Thank you.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger?

11 MR. TIEGER: No, your Honour.

12 JUDGE STEPHEN: Mr. Tieger, perhaps I can do it through you. If you could

13 find out from the witness whether he can give any date at all as to

14 his first sighting on the pista of Tadic, because I do not think that

15 has emerged, has it?

16 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, my recollection of the testimony is this, that

17 the witness arrived in Omarska on the evening of May 30th, as he

18 testified. I believe he said he spent one night in the restaurant

19 building, was taken to the pista. Perhaps you are right, perhaps the

20 question in between ----

21 JUDGE STEPHEN: There is a stay in the White House and then there are 10

22 days.

23 MR. TIEGER: I will clarify that. I understand the point.

24 Mr. Haskic, do you recall approximately how long after you

25 were placed on the pista it was before you saw Dule Tadic for the

Page 2984

1 first time?

2 A. I could not say. The first time I saw him, the first time, between

3 the first time and the second time, a day or two elapsed, but as to

4 the first time I could not really say whether it was a day or two or

5 ----

6 Q. You were on the pista for a total of approximately 10 days?

7 A. Not more than 10 days.

8 Q. Was it during that time that you spent one night in the white house?

9 A. Yes.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?

11 MR. KAY: No further questions, your Honour.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I have no questions. Is there any objection to Mr.

13 Haskic being permanently excused?

14 MR. KAY: Your Honour, we may require this witness's further attendance

15 and I would ask that he not be released on this occasion.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Not? You do not mean today but just be subject to

17 ----

18 MR. KAY: A further recall, if appropriate.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger?

20 MR. TIEGER: I will leave that to the court, your Honour. There is

21 certainly no reason on the Prosecution's part why this witness cannot

22 be excused.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Haskic, Counsel for the Defence has asked that

24 you be available so that, if necessary, you can be recalled to testify

25 before the Trial Chamber. So, please make sure that you keep in touch

Page 2985

1 with the Office of the Prosecutor who has called you as a witness, and

2 they know where you are, so that, if necessary, you can be recalled.

3 Do you understand that?

4 THE WITNESS: Yes.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Will you do that?

6 THE WITNESS: Yes.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. We will stand in recess until 2.30.

8 (1.00 p.m.)

9 (Luncheon Adjournment)

10

11

12 (2.30) (In closed session)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 2986

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 page 2986 redacted closed session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 2987

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 page 2987 redacted closed session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 2988

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 page 2988 redacted closed session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 2989

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 page 2989 redacted closed session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 2990

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 page 2990 redacted closed session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 2991

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 page 2991 redacted closed session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 2992

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 page 2992 redacted closed session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 2993

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (Adjourned for a short time)

22

23 (Open Session)

24 (3.00 p.m.)

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, would you like to call your next

Page 2994

1 witness, please?

2 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour. We call Saud Hrnic.

3 MR. SAUD HRNIC, called.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you please take that oath that is before

5 you?

6 THE WITNESS [In Translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak the

7 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

8 (The witness was sworn)

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. Thank you. You may be seated.

10 Examined by MISS HOLLIS

11 MISS HOLLIS: Sir, would you please state your full name?

12 A. Saud Hrnic.

13 Q. What is your date of birth?

14 A. April 4th, in Kozarac.

15 Q. What is the year of your birth?

16 A. 1961.

17 Q. What is your nationality?

18 A. Muslim.

19 Q. Were you born in the town of Kozarac or in one of the villages

20 surrounding the town of Kozarac?

21 A. In the town of Kozarac.

22 Q. How long did you live in the town of Kozarac?

23 A. I lived there until the 24th -- 27th May 1994.

24 Q. Did you attend primary school in Kozarac?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2995

1 Q. Where did you attend secondary school?

2 A. In Prijedor.

3 Q. Did you serve in the military?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. When did you serve in the military?

6 A. Between January 1980 to 1981.

7 Q. What were your duties in the military?

8 A. I was in the motorized unit, I transported people, equipment, food

9 stuffs and the rest.

10 Q. You were a driver?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. As a result of your service in the military, did you become familiar

13 with JNA equipment, uniforms and weapons?

14 A. Yes, most of them.

15 Q. Did you become familiar with JNA vehicles and combat vehicles such as

16 tanks or amoured personnel carriers?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What is your former occupation?

19 A. I did not understand the question -- before the army or after it?

20 Q. Before the attack on Kozarac, what was your former occupation?

21 A. I had my own private delivery, own shipping company.

22 Q. That was some type of trucking company?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did your trucking company take you into the villages in the areas

25 surrounding Kozarac?

Page 2996

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. As a result of your business did you meet and know many of the people

3 in the villages surrounding Kozarac?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What was the predominant ethnic group or groups in that area?

6 A. Muslims.

7 Q. Were there some Serb villages and areas as well?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you have any business other than this trucking company?

10 A. From '91, in mid '91, I had a discotheque in Kozarac.

11 Q. Where was that discotheque located in Kozarac?

12 A. Towards the bus station, at the bus station in Kozarac, in the Local

13 Commune.

14 Q. Where did you live in Kozarac?

15 A. Marsala Tita Street, 140.

16 Q. If the witness could be provided with Prosecution Exhibit 196, the

17 map of a portion of Kozarac? Sir, if you could take a moment to

18 examine that map? If the map could then be put on the overhead

19 projector, please? Sir, if we are looking at this map and we see the

20 main street running by the school and toward the building marked

21 "mosque", that being the main street of Kozarac, could you please

22 point out to the court where your home would have been located?

23 Please do that on the overhead projector exhibit, please.

24 A. (The witness indicated on the map).

25 Q. So your home would have been just beyond the mosque that is located

Page 2997

1 on that map?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. That is the Mutnik mosque?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How many homes away from the mosque would your home have been

6 located?

7 A. Five or six from the mosque.

8 Q. Looking at this same map could you show us approximately where your

9 disco would have been located?

10 A. Here at the crossroads, here on the left side.

11 Q. So it would have been on the opposite side of the street from the

12 mosque?

13 A. No. Yes, yes, but before the mosque.

14 Q. But on the other side of Marsala Tita?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Sir, Kozarac was a fairly small town, was it not?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did your business and other activities take you often into the main

19 area of town along this main street?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you know many of the inhabitants of the town of Kozarac?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you know many of the people and businesses located along Marsala

24 Tita Street?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2998

1 Q. Did you know Dule Tadic?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How long have you known Dule Tadic?

4 A. Well, about when I started elementary school and then onward, later

5 around my 10th.

6 Q. Around your 10th what?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I am sorry, the translation said "around my 10th", around your 10th

9 what, your 10th birthday?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. To your knowledge, is Dule Tadic younger than you or older than you

12 are?

13 A. Older.

14 Q. To your knowledge, he is approximately how much older than you are?

15 A. Five or six years.

16 Q. How did you first become aware of Dule Tadic?

17 A. As a child, I admired his brothers and later I watched him. They

18 were outstanding karateists and I liked it as a child, I liked to

19 watch them.

20 Q. So you would occasionally watch them as they trained at karate?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you ever take karate lessons from Dule Tadic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. How many courses of karate training did you take from Dule Tadic?

25 A. I attended his course twice.

Page 2999

1 Q. How old were you when you first attended his course?

2 A. Well, somewhere around 16 or 17.

3 Q. How long did this first course last?

4 A. It lasted longer than that, but I spent two or three months there.

5 Q. How many times a week would you be in training with Dule Tadic in

6 this course?

7 A. Once or twice.

8 Q. Once or twice what, a week, a month?

9 A. A week.

10 Q. This second course that you took from Dule Tadic, how long did this

11 course last?

12 A. I cannot say exactly, but briefly.

13 Q. You attended this course only briefly?

14 A. I could not say exactly how long it lasted.

15 Q. Did you complete this course or did you leave this course before it

16 was completed?

17 A. Before.

18 Q. Why did you leave it before it was completed?

19 A. I had an opportunity to spar with a friend of mine, and during that

20 dual I hit him with my foot unintentionally and he fell on the floor;

21 and then Dule Tadic came up and began beating me because of that.

22 Q. After this second course and after you left this second course, did

23 you continue to have contact with Dule Tadic after that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What type of contact would you have with Dule Tadic?

Page 3000

1 A. Well, we met in the street or at a cafe bar.

2 Q. Did your sister have a cafe bar in Kozarac?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What was the name of that cafe bar?

5 A. It was cafe bar Trinaest, 13.

6 Q. Were you ever in that cafe bar when Dule Tadic was also in that cafe

7 bar?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. To your knowledge, what was Dule Tadic's business in Kozarac, what

10 was his occupation?

11 A. On the eve of the war he also started a cafe bar, and before that he

12 was an active athlete and long before that he had coached people and

13 so on.

14 Q. His cafe bar was located where?

15 A. It was next to his family's house, his father's house and his.

16 Q. That was located where in Kozarac?

17 A. It was to the left slightly before the school or the restaurant, to

18 the left, facing down Kozarac from the direction of the Banja

19 Luka/Prijedor.

20 Q. This was on Marsala Tita Street?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you ever have occasion to go to Dule Tadic's cafe bar?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. During the time that you knew Dule Tadic, on a weekly basis how

25 frequently would you say you had contact with Mr. Tadic?

Page 3001

1 A. Although he had his own cafe bar, he frequently visited the cafe bar

2 of my sister and my brother-in-law and we met there rather often and

3 in his cafe pub too.

4 Q. On a weekly basis how often would you say you would have contact with

5 Mr. Tadic?

6 A. Well, let me say I did not have much contact with him, but we met in

7 the street. We simply come across each other in the street.

8 Q. Would this occur frequently during a week, occasionally -- how

9 frequently?

10 A. I would not know the exact number, but very often.

11 Q. Did you know Dule Tadic's wife?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you know if she worked and, if so, do you know what her occupation

14 was?

15 A. Yes, she was a nurse or something else, I would not know exactly, but

16 she was employed in the hospital. For a certain period of time she

17 was in the Kozarac hospital.

18 Q. During the time that you knew Dule Tadic did you ever see Dule Tadic

19 with a fully grown beard?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Were there periods of time when you saw Dule Tadic and he would be

22 clean shaven?

23 A. Yes, but very seldom. One could not see whether he was clean shaven

24 or not unless you came very close up to him.

25 Q. Why was that?

Page 3002

1 A. Dule Tadic had quite a strong beard, and if you look at him from a

2 certain distance one could think that he had a beard when he did not.

3 Q. So he had a strong, dark facial hair?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. During the time that you knew Dule Tadic how would you characterise

6 your relationship with him? Would you say you were acquaintances,

7 friends or good friends?

8 A. Well, I would rather say we knew each other from the street. We were

9 no close friends, but when we would meet we sometimes spend sometime

10 together in company together, but we did not have much contact.

11 Q. To your knowledge, was there anyone in the Kozarac area who looked

12 very similar to Dusko Tadic in appearance?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did you ever hear other people talking about a person that they had

15 mistaken for Dule Tadic?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you know of any of Dule Tadic's close friends?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Who were some of his very close friends, to your knowledge?

20 A. Well, I think his closest friend was Emir Karabasic who often spent

21 days with him and even nights often.

22 Q. Did you know Emir Karabasic's ethnic group?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. At this time I would ask that Prosecution Exhibit 195 be played?

25 This is a video of portions of Kozarac, just the Marsala Tita Street

Page 3003

1 portion, please? Mr. Hrnic, as this is played, I would ask you to

2 identify for the court structures that you recognise. Could you hold

3 that for just a moment, please? I am sorry, your Honours, was there

4 -----

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Our only concern is that we have seen Exhibit 195

6 several times. We could probably point out some places as well, but

7 if you want to establish that this witness knew the area -----

8 JUDGE STEPHEN: It is obvious he must do.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: He had a disco place.

10 MISS HOLLIS: That is fine. If your Honours are satisfied with that, we

11 will not show Prosecution Exhibit 195.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Unless there is some other reason for it?

13 MISS HOLLIS: No, your Honour, there is not.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Thank you.

15 MISS HOLLIS: Then please do not play that video.

16 In the spring of 1992, you were living in Kozarac, is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In the spring of 1992, do you recall ever seeing any cannon or

20 artillery being moved into the Kozarac area?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. When you saw this, what type of cannon or artillery did you see?

23 A. Well, those were, one would say, light cannons. They were trailed by

24 trucks and they were passing through Kozarac.

25 Q. Did you recognise the light cannons as the type that the JNA had as

Page 3004

1 weapons?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you recognise the trucks that were pulling them as JNA type

4 trucks?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you see any type of licensed plates or markings on these trucks

7 to identify them as JNA trucks?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What did you see?

10 A. Well, I saw the JNA plates, and they had -- and vehicles TAM 110.

11 They were so-called Pitzgauers, they were TAM 110 or .....

12 Q. A Pitzgauer was a military type vehicle used by the JNA?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When was it that you saw these cannons being pulled by these JNA

15 trucks?

16 A. I think it was in April or, perhaps, early May. I do not know the

17 exact date.

18 Q. This was 1992?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Where was it that you saw these cannons being pulled by these trucks?

21 A. I saw them entering the area of what we called the Vocnjak. It is

22 Garevci, between two bus stations, Koncari and Orlovci.

23 Q. Did you see them being pulled along the new Prijedor/Banja Luka road?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Perhaps if we could have Prosecution Exhibit 79 provided to the

Page 3005

1 witness? Sir, if you could take a moment and familiarise yourself

2 with that map? If that map could be put on the overhead projector,

3 please? Then if that area could be located, Mr. Hrnic? If you could

4 point to the area in which you saw these vehicles? If you could point

5 to the general area, we will then focus in on it more closely. If you

6 could point to the Exhibit that is on the overhead projector?

7 A. It is here. (The witness indicated on the map).

8 Q. If we could come into that a little more closely, please? So it is

9 near this area with the word just above it "Drljaca" that you saw

10 these vehicles? Please point again.

11 A. No, it is not here -- yes, it is. Yes, Drljaca.

12 Q. When you saw these vehicles pulling these cannon, in what direction

13 were they moving?

14 A. They were coming from the direction of Banja Luka and they headed

15 towards Prijedor.

16 Q. Then did they leave the main highway and go in another direction?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Would you please show the court where they left the main highway and

19 the direction in which they went?

20 A. Here, they moved towards above Vocnjak.

21 Q. What is in that area? There are green dots there. What is in that

22 area?

23 A. We called it Vocnjak. It is orchard. There were apple trees, plum

24 trees, pear trees.

25 Q. To your knowledge, what ethnic group lives in and controls that area?

Page 3006

1 A. Serbs.

2 Q. Do you recall if this was before or after the Serb takeover of

3 Prijedor?

4 A. I would not know exactly, but I think it was before.

5 Q. After 30th April Serb takeover in Prijedor, did you begin to have

6 difficulties travelling between Kozarac and Prijedor?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What types of difficulties did you have?

9 A. Well, we came across points.

10 Q. What types of points are you talking about, checkpoints on the road?

11 A. Yes, yes. There were checkpoints of the police and the army, the

12 JNA.

13 Q. Where were these checkpoints located?

14 A. The first one was in Kozarac and the second one was in Koncari and

15 the third one in Cirkin Polje.

16 Q. What types of difficulties did you have at these checkpoints?

17 A. Well, we were all almost always stopped, checked, searched. Our cars

18 were checked -- were searched.

19 Q. You indicated that there were JNA and police at these checkpoints.

20 What did they wear?

21 A. At that time the policemen were in their ordinary blue uniforms and

22 the military were in many coloured camouflage uniforms.

23 Q. Did you know any of these people who manned these checkpoints?

24 A. Well, I knew most of them. There were traffic policemen, policemen

25 who always were on the road between Prijedor and Kozarac.

Page 3007

1 Q. The ones that you knew, what was their ethnic group?

2 A. Serb.

3 Q. Again after the Serb takeover of Prijedor, after this time, did the

4 inhabitants of Kozarac organise any type of patrols or guard posts in

5 the town?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What type of patrols or guard posts were organised?

8 A. By and large, night guards in the streets and on the approaches to

9 Kozarac, on those main exits roads to Kozarac, there were these

10 checkpoints.

11 Q. Why were these checkpoints, these guards posts, organised?

12 A. Mostly, they were afraid of somebody coming from the other side and

13 create something that could turn into conflict.

14 Q. When you say they were afraid of "people coming from the other side",

15 who are you referring to by these "people coming from the other side"?

16 A. JNA army, and the people that could come, and I am not sure who they

17 would be.

18 Q. How many people in Kozarac participated in these patrols or guard

19 posts?

20 A. I could not tell you the exact number, but on the street there were

21 always in the evening two people walking, and police were having their

22 patrols.

23 Q. The groups of people who would participate, what groups of people

24 participated in these patrols?

25 A. Citizens, and Territorial Defence from Kozarac and police.

Page 3008

1 Q. Were you one of these men who participated in these patrols?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What area did you patrol or guard?

4 A. I was mostly in the area of Rajkovici and Mrakovica.

5 Q. Where are those areas located?

6 A. They are located towards the direction -- when you go from Kozarac

7 to Mrakovica.

8 Q. If you look at Prosecution Exhibit 79, does that have Rajkovici on

9 there?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Could that be placed back on the overhead, please, and then if you

12 could show the court the area in which you would be involved in these

13 patrols? If we could zoom in on that, please?

14 A. (The witness indicated on the map).

15 Q. This was the road going up to where?

16 A. That road that goes through Mrakovica towards Bosanska Gradiska.

17 Q. Was this also the road that you would take if you went to Mount

18 Kozara?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. The groups of people involved in these patrols, was there any type of

21 formal chain of command, a military type chain of command, for these

22 groups?

23 A. No.

24 Q. In these groups would there be a person who was usually in charge of

25 the group?

Page 3009

1 A. As far as I know, not.

2 Q. How many of these people were armed, to your knowledge?

3 A. Usually, policemen were armed and policemen who were at those

4 checkpoints and the people who had their own weapons, but there were

5 very few of those.

6 Q. You also mentioned that there were persons who were members of the

7 Territorial Defence who participated in these patrols. Would some of

8 those individuals also have weapons?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What types of weapons did the people have who participated in these

11 patrols?

12 A. Mostly hunting rifles and some people had M48 rifles which came from

13 TO, and I think there was maybe a machine gun that belonged to TO.

14 Q. Were there any automatic weapons?

15 A. There were some automatic weapons but very few.

16 Q. Did you have a weapon?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What type of weapon did you have?

19 A. I had an automatic weapon.

20 Q. How much ammunition did the people have for these weapons?

21 A. Very little.

22 Q. To your knowledge, did these people have any mortars or cannons or

23 artillery weapons?

24 A. No.

25 Q. To your knowledge, did these people have any tanks or amoured

Page 3010

1 personnel carriers?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did you know or know of a person by the name of Cirkin who was called

4 Captain Cirkin?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you know him personally?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. To your knowledge, did he have any involvement in organising these

9 groups of people who patrolled Kozarac?

10 A. As far as I know, not.

11 Q. I would like for you again to use Prosecution Exhibit 79 and, using

12 that map, I would like you to show the court where you were on 24th

13 May 1992 when the attack on Kozarac began?

14 A. I was above Rajkovici, on the road to Kotlovaca, here.

15 Q. So this was in the area near the word "Alagic" on the map?

16 A. I do not know this word.

17 Q. You see the word on the map and you have pointed to an area close to

18 that word?

19 A. I see, I see. Yes.

20 Q. This was one of these checkpoints that you had mentioned earlier?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Why did you have a checkpoint in that particular area?

23 A. Well, this was sort of the end of the town of Kozarac, and it was on

24 the main road that took from Rajkovici to Kozarac.

25 Q. To your knowledge, were there any JNA installations further up that

Page 3011

1 road?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What was that installation or installations?

4 A. Those were soldiers, JNA soldiers, perhaps some members of the

5 reserve units, but they were within JNA.

6 Q. Do you know where they were located, the name of that location?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What was that?

9 A. Benkovac.

10 Q. On 24th April (sic), when the attack began, where was your family?

11 Where was your wife?

12 A. They were at home.

13 Q. Do you have children?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Were your children at home with your wife?

16 A. No.

17 Q. I am sorry, I misspoke. I said 24th April when the attack began; I

18 meant 24th May. I apologise. So on 24th May, your wife was at home,

19 your children were not at home in Kozarac. Where were your children?

20 A. They went abroad.

21 Q. When the attack began on Kozarac and you became aware of the attack,

22 did you remain where you were or did you leave the area?

23 A. No, I left the area.

24 Q. Did you leave the area on foot or in a vehicle?

25 A. In a vehicle.

Page 3012

1 Q. When you left the area did you drive through the main street of

2 Kozarac and out of the town in the direction of Banja Luka?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. While you were driving through the main street of Kozarac and out of

5 the town, was that area being shelled?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. At that time did you hear any shelling, any firing, coming from the

8 town outward toward Serbs positions?

9 A. No.

10 Q. At some point did you yourself come under direct fire from a weapon?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. If you could, again using Prosecution Exhibit 79, point to your

13 location when you came under direct fire?

14 A. (The witness indicated on the map).

15 Q. What is that area that you have pointed to?

16 A. This is called Forica Suma.

17 Q. If you could point there again, please? I would note that it is to

18 the left of the word "Nisici". Were you able to determine the

19 location from which this fire was coming?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Where was this fire coming from?

22 A. It was coming from above Drenovici, from the bridge over Balte.

23 Q. If you could point to that area, please?

24 A. (The witness indicated on the map).

25 Q. How far away would that area have been from where you were?

Page 3013

1 A. I think about two to three kilometres.

2 Q. Was that area you pointed out at a higher elevation than you were?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. To your knowledge, what ethnic group controlled that area from which

5 the firing was coming?

6 A. Serbs.

7 Q. Were you able to determine what type of weaponry was being fired at

8 you?

9 A. Approximately, yes.

10 Q. What was that?

11 A. Those were mortars.

12 Q. Were you able to escape from this small wood and move to another

13 area?

14 A. I did not quite understand the question.

15 Q. Were you able to escape from this area where you were under fire and

16 move to another location?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. Did you remain out of the town of Kozarac then until Monday

19 afternoon?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. On Monday, before you returned to the area of Kozarac, did you see

22 any tanks?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Where did you see the tanks?

25 A. At the same place, in Balte.

Page 3014

1 Q. How many tanks did you see?

2 A. I saw one.

3 Q. Were you able to determine if the tank was firing at the time you saw

4 it?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How were you able to determine that?

7 A. I was quite close, I am not sure at what distance, but several

8 kilometres and I could see how the tank was turned towards the city

9 and I could see the smoke coming out.

10 Q. Could you also hear anything being fired?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In what direction was the tank pointed?

13 A. Pointed towards Kamicani, Softici, that direction.

14 Q. To your knowledge, what was the ethnic group of the people who lived

15 in those areas?

16 A. Serbs.

17 Q. When you returned to the town of Kozarac on Monday, did you spend the

18 night in a cellar of a house there in the town?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. The next morning then, on Tuesday, did you see people beginning to

21 surrender and move toward the main business area of Kozarac?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Where were you when these people were beginning to form a column and

24 move toward the centre business area of Kozarac?

25 A. I was close to the police station before, in front of the PTT and

Page 3015

1 cafe Neira.

2 Q. When you saw these people in this column moving toward the centre of

3 Kozarac, did you recognise any of those people?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you recognise any policemen among those people?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Who were the policemen that you recognised?

8 A. Those were Osme, Police Commander, Braco Denic, and other policemen.

9 Q. These policemen that you recognised, to your knowledge, what was

10 their ethnic group?

11 A. Muslims.

12 Q. When you saw them, when you saw the police, where were they in this

13 group of people? Were they toward the front or were they in the

14 middle?

15 A. Towards the front.

16 Q. If you could use Prosecution Exhibit 196 again, please, the map of

17 portions of Kozarac, and if you could please point to the area where

18 you saw this group of people including these police.

19 A. (The witness indicated on the map).

20 Q. So this would be an area just below the circular road that branched

21 off from Marsala Tita and then rejoined it at a lower place on the

22 map?

23 A. That road does not join lower on the map; it joins on the upper part

24 of the map.

25 Q. Yes. If would you point again, please? So the area that you saw

Page 3016

1 them is below the road as it joins Marsala Tita, is that correct?

2 A. Below the road where it joins.

3 Q. When you saw this group of people there, did you see any escorts or

4 soldiers with them?

5 A. No.

6 Q. At the time that you saw this group of people, could you estimate how

7 many people were in this group?

8 A. There was a huge number of people.

9 Q. On this same map further up, there is a structure that is indicated

10 as a motel. It has earlier been identified as a structure that was

11 set up as a temporary hospital and police headquarters. After you saw

12 Osme and Braco, at some time after that, did you make your way to this

13 motel?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When you arrived at this motel who did you see there?

16 A. I saw policemen at the motel and some civilians but very few.

17 Q. Did you recognise any of these policemen at the motel?

18 A. Yes, most of them.

19 Q. The ones that you recognised, what was their ethnic group?

20 A. Muslims.

21 Q. Do you recall the names of any of these policemen that you saw at the

22 motel?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. What were those names that you recall, please?

25 A. Nedjo Redzic, Emir Hodzic, Ekrem Besic, Besic -- I forgot his first

Page 3017

1 name, we called him "Boca" -- Klipic, Sakip, and many others.

2 Q. You mentioned the name Klipic, did you know Klipic's first name?

3 A. No, we all of us called him "Klipic".

4 Q. If you know, what was his wife's name?

5 A. Yes, Nasiha.

6 Q. When you arrived at the motel and you saw these policemen, what were

7 the policemen doing?

8 A. They were all there and they tried to establish connection with

9 Prijedor.

10 Q. Who was trying to do that?

11 A. Edin Besic, we called him Boca, tried to do that. He tried to get a

12 connection with the police station in Prijedor, I think, with the

13 station, police station Prijedor.

14 Q. If you know, who was he trying to reach?

15 A. He was asking to talk to Osme on the telephone.

16 Q. To the Commander of police in Kozarac?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. To your knowledge, did he ever make contact with Osme over the radio?

19 A. No.

20 Q. At some point after you arrived at the motel, did this group of

21 policemen leave the motel and head in a direction toward the business

22 centre of Kozarac?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. After you saw them going in that direction, did you see any of them

25 again after that date?

Page 3018

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you yourself surrender on that date, on Tuesday?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Were you able to reunite with your wife late that night on Tuesday?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. The next day, the Wednesday, did you and your wife join with other

7 people who were going toward the centre of Kozarac to surrender?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. At that time were you walking or were you in a vehicle?

10 A. Walking.

11 Q. At that time did you have any weapons with you?

12 A. No.

13 Q. What had you done with the weapon which you had?

14 A. On Tuesday morning when the first group wanted to surrender, when

15 they went to surrender, we left at a friend's -- we put it in a

16 friend's bag.

17 Q. Did this group, including yourself and your wife, ultimately stop

18 near the school on Marsala Tita Street?

19 A. At the bus station in Kozarac, exactly.

20 Q. As you walked toward this area, did you see any people with weapons

21 standing up on any of the buildings in Kozarac?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What type of clothing were these people wearing?

24 A. They all had camouflage uniforms.

25 Q. What type of weapons did they have?

Page 3019

1 A. They had mostly automatic weapons.

2 Q. Did you recognise any of these people?

3 A. Not here.

4 Q. As you went on this route toward the centre of town did you see any

5 tanks?

6 A. After I got to that spot, I could see a tank that was standing at the

7 junction where the road that goes to the old Kula is, and the road

8 that goes to Stari Grad, the old town.

9 Q. So this was a junction of Marsala Tita and another street?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. The tank that you saw, did you recognise it as a JNA type tank?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. As you made your way to this area in Kozarac did you have any armed

14 escorts?

15 A. Yes, the whole time.

16 Q. Did you recognise any of these escorts?

17 A. Not at that moment.

18 Q. What were these escorts wearing?

19 A. They all wore camouflage uniforms.

20 Q. When this column finally came to a halt, using Prosecution Exhibit

21 196, could you show the court where this column of people was finally

22 halted?

23 A. (The witness indicated on the map) Here.

24 Q. You are pointing here at the intersection with what is called

25 sometimes the old Prijedor road?

Page 3020

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How long were you kept at that intersection before you moved on from

3 there?

4 A. I could not tell you exactly -- perhaps two or three hours.

5 Q. While you were being held there, did you have any police or soldiers

6 who were guarding you or escorting you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did you recognise any of them?

9 A. Yes, one of them.

10 Q. Who was that?

11 A. I do not know his name, but we called him Gauro's son.

12 Q. To your knowledge, what was his ethnic group?

13 A. Serb.

14 Q. These guards that you had at this intersection, what were they

15 wearing?

16 A. They all had camouflage uniforms.

17 Q. While you were waiting at this intersection area, did you see any

18 looting going on in structures near you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What did you see?

21 A. I saw the truck in front of Redzo's house, that is, my friend's

22 house, a truck had Bosanski Novi plate, it was a civilian truck, and

23 it was loading on -- the people were loading everything from the store

24 on to the truck.

25 Q. You said that this was the store of a friend of yours?

Page 3021

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What was this friend's ethnic group?

3 A. Muslim.

4 Q. What were these looters wearing?

5 A. They were all in uniforms.

6 Q. What types of uniforms?

7 A. Camouflage.

8 Q. While these people in camouflage uniforms were looting this store,

9 did the guards with you intervene to stop them?

10 A. No.

11 Q. What were the guards doing?

12 A. They tried to see what is there in the store, what could they take

13 for them.

14 Q. While you were at this intersection, was this large group separated

15 into smaller groups?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. How were you separated?

18 A. Men were separated from women.

19 Q. After you were separated in what direction did you go?

20 A. We went towards the new road Banja Luka/Prijedor.

21 Q. Then in what direction?

22 A. Towards Prijedor.

23 Q. As you initially set out were you in vehicles or were you on foot?

24 A. On foot, we walked.

25 Q. Were the men and the women and children eventually put on to buses

Page 3022

1 and then taken to Trnopolje camp?

2 A. The women were first put on the buses and children, and they were

3 taken away.

4 Q. Then the men were put on buses and taken to Trnopolje camp?

5 A. Yes.

6 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, this might be a good time to break.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.

8 (4.00 p.m.)

9 (The court adjourned for a short time)

10 (4.20 p.m.)

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may be seated, please. Miss Hollis, would you

12 like to continue?

13 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour.

14 Sir, I would like to clarify two matters before we continue

15 with the questioning. I had asked you earlier if you knew the ethnic

16 group of Emir Karabasic and I do not recall what your answer was.

17 Could you tell us, please, if you know, what was the ethnic group of

18 Emir Karabasic?

19 A. Yes, Muslim.

20 Q. We had also talked earlier about the Monday after the attack on

21 Kozarac, and that you had seen a tank in Balte. You had testified

22 earlier that Balte was an area inhabited by Serbs. You had also

23 indicated that the turret of the tank was pointed toward the area of

24 Kamicani and Softici. Could you tell us, please, the ethnic group of

25 the people who lived in the Kamicani and Softici area?

Page 3023

1 A. They were Muslims.

2 Q. Thank you, sir. At the break you had indicated that the men, women

3 and children had been put on to buses on the Wednesday after the

4 attack on Kozarac. You yourself were also put on one of these buses,

5 is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What type of buses were these that were used to transport these

8 groups of people?

9 A. They were civilian buses of Auto Transport in Prijedor.

10 Q. Did you arrive at Trnopolje camp on Wednesday, the Wednesday

11 following the attack on Kozarac?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. At Trnopolje camp were you reunited with your wife?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How long did you remain at Trnopolje camp?

16 A. About five days.

17 Q. How long did your wife remain at Trnopolje camp?

18 A. Two days.

19 Q. Do you recall the date that you were taken from Trnopolje camp?

20 A. I believe it was 1st June.

21 Q. How were you able to keep track of dates after you were taken by the

22 Serbs?

23 A. I paid no attention to dates, but I am speaking approximately. My

24 wife left on Friday, I know that, and I left two days later.

25 Q. Your recollection is that two days after that Friday was 1st June, is

Page 3024

1 that correct?

2 A. I think it was 1st, that it was 1st June.

3 Q. While you were at Trnopolje camp, where did you sleep in the camp?

4 A. I was in the school.

5 Q. Did you know any of the other people being detained at the camp?

6 A. Yes, most of them.

7 Q. What was the ethnic group of the people you knew being detained at

8 Trnopolje?

9 A. Muslims.

10 Q. What did the camp guards wear?

11 A. They were all in camouflage uniforms.

12 Q. Did you know any of these camp guards?

13 A. Some of them, yes.

14 Q. The ones that you knew, what was their ethnic group?

15 A. They were Serbs.

16 Q. While you were at Trnopolje camp do you recall seeing a woman shot

17 and killed there?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What did you see of this incident?

20 A. We were outside at the corner of the school, well, in the yard

21 practically and we were paying no attention, but there was a fire and

22 then we turned and saw a soldier raise his automatic rifle and start

23 firing at people who were outside.

24 Q. Did you see this woman hit by that fire?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3025

1 Q. When you left Trnopolje camp, where were you taken?

2 A. The barracks in Prijedor.

3 Q. That was the military barracks in Prijedor?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. If you know, where are those military barracks located in Prijedor?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Where are they located?

8 A. At the exit from Prijedor, in the direction of Bosanska Dubica, on

9 the left side.

10 Q. Are there any other towns in that general direction as well?

11 A. Well, this is the road to Zagreb, to Belgrade/Zagreb highway, and

12 quite a number of them.

13 Q. How long were you held at the military barracks in Prijedor?

14 A. Enough to write a statement.

15 Q. How were you transported to the military barracks?

16 A. We were transferred with Fadil Delmic and his car.

17 Q. Who drove that vehicle?

18 A. Two soldiers seized his car and put him and me in the car and drove

19 it, and then on the way I realised we were heading for the barracks

20 and we did arrive at the barracks.

21 Q. You said that you were in the barracks long enough to give a

22 statement. You were questioned while you were at the barracks?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Who questioned you there?

25 A. There were two uniformed individuals. I saw their ranks but I do not

Page 3026

1 know them, in many coloured camouflage uniforms.

2 Q. What was the statement about? What did they ask you about?

3 A. They wanted me to write where I was at the beginning of the war, what

4 I did before the war and what I did during the attack on Kozarac until

5 my stay in Trnopolje.

6 Q. Where were you taken after you gave that statement?

7 A. They took me to Keraterm.

8 Q. How were you transported to Keraterm?

9 A. Civilian vehicle.

10 Q. Who escorted you there?

11 A. There were again two soldiers but other two soldiers.

12 Q. What were they wearing?

13 A. Camouflage uniforms too.

14 Q. How long were you held at Keraterm?

15 A. Seven days.

16 Q. While you were there where were you held?

17 A. I was in a garage No. 1.

18 Q. At this time if Prosecution Exhibit 201 could be provided and that

19 would be document No. 29-1, 29/27, if that could be brought up on the

20 computer screen? Mr. Hrnic, do you recognise this photograph as a

21 photograph of Keraterm?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. If that could be placed on the overhead projector, please? Sir, if

24 you could please point to the location where you were held in Keraterm

25 pointing to the photograph that is on the overhead projector?

Page 3027

1 A. (The witness indicated on the photograph).

2 Q. Would you point there again, please? So this is the first set of

3 doors to the left as you view this building?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. That was garage No. 1 in which you were kept?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. While you were at Keraterm, did you know or recognise any of the

8 other detainees being held there?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. The detainees that you knew or recognised, to your knowledge, what

11 was their ethnic group?

12 A. Most of them were Muslims and there were a couple of Croats.

13 Q. Did you personally know any of the guards at Keraterm?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. The person that you knew, what was that person's ethnic group?

16 A. Serb.

17 Q. The guards at Keraterm wore what type of clothing?

18 A. They also wore camouflage uniforms, by and large, camouflage.

19 Q. "By and large", what other types of clothing did you see the guards

20 there wear?

21 A. Well, sometimes somebody would turn up, I do not know, police, for

22 instance, police uniforms. There were old SMB uniforms, the old

23 uniforms, those of the JNA.

24 Q. While you were at Keraterm did you learn of a man who was called

25 Zoran Zigic?

Page 3028

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did others at Keraterm point out this man to you as Zoran Zigic?

3 A. Well, I did not know his name but I did see him before that on

4 various occasions.

5 Q. Other individuals told you his name was Zoran Zigic?

6 A. That he was Zigic, a few people called him Zoran, but I knew him. I

7 had seen him on a number of occasions before that. I did not know his

8 name.

9 Q. While you were at Keraterm, do you recall any occasions when

10 detainees were beaten at the camp?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Who did the beating?

13 A. Zoran Zigic was the one who beat the most.

14 Q. Do you recall an occasion when you saw Zoran Zigic beat a man named

15 Emsud Bahonic?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you see this beating?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How was this man, Emsud Bahonic, beaten?

20 A. He was beaten, Zigic beat him. He had a scorpion with him, he always

21 had it with him. A scorpion is a pistol. He kicked him with his

22 feet, with anything that he happened to come by. There were also some

23 rods there -- whatever he could lay his hands on.

24 Q. Did you see Emsud Bahonic's condition after this beating?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3029

1 Q. What was his condition?

2 A. I cannot remember whether it was the left or the right side, but he

3 could not move one side of his body at all.

4 Q. Did you see any other bruising or injuries on his body?

5 A. He was bruised all over.

6 Q. Had you known Emsud Bahonic before Keraterm?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What was the ethnic group of Emsud Bahonic?

9 A. Muslim.

10 Q. When you left Keraterm where were you taken?

11 A. They took me to Omarska.

12 Q. How were you taken there?

13 A. They took us in a police van.

14 Q. Did you have escorts in that police van?

15 A. I cannot say. We were locked up in the van. There were 12 or 13 of

16 us. We were inside. I could not see anything. I do not know.

17 Q. These other individuals who were taken with you, were these other

18 detainees from Keraterm?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you recall the date when you arrived at Omarska?

21 A. I believe it was 8th June.

22 Q. Do you recall the day of the week?

23 A. It could have been Monday possibly or perhaps Tuesday.

24 Q. How long were you held at Omarska camp?

25 A. I was there until August 6th 1992 or 7th.

Page 3030

1 Q. When you left Omarska where were you taken?

2 A. They took us to Manjaca.

3 Q. Did you personally know any of the guards at Omarska camp?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Of the guards that you knew what was their ethnic group?

6 A. Serb.

7 Q. What did the guards at Omarska camp wear?

8 A. They were in many coloured uniforms, in uniforms as the police were,

9 then also old SMB uniforms.

10 Q. While you were at Omarska camp, did you ever meet or see a man named

11 Zeljko Mejakic?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. While you were at the camp did you learn what his position was in the

14 camp?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. To your knowledge, what was his position in the camp?

17 A. He was a Commander of the camp.

18 Q. Why do you believe he was the Commander of the camp?

19 A. He was there almost every day, every night. He rarely left the

20 camp. He did not communicate with the detainees much, only with the

21 guards and the superiors.

22 Q. Did you know any of the other detainees at Omarska?

23 A. Yes, many of them.

24 Q. The detainees that you knew, what was their ethnic group?

25 A. Muslim, mostly.

Page 3031

1 Q. Did you have any relatives at Omarska camp?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What relatives did you have at the camp?

4 A. Well, first, there was my brother, Hrnic Dalija, there was another

5 relative of mine, Jasmin Hrnic; there was one of my brothers-in-law, a

6 number of my friends and brother of one of my brothers-in-law.

7 Q. You indicated that Jasmin Hrnic was a relative of yours. Did Jasmin

8 Hrnic have a nickname?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And what was that nickname?

11 A. "Jasko".

12 Q. Your relatives who were at the camp, what was their ethnic group?

13 A. Muslim.

14 Q. If you would, please, look at this model in front of you and if you

15 could tell us what the large red building is almost directly in front

16 of you, what building was that?

17 A. Yes, this is hangar.

18 Q. The area between the hangar and the smaller red building, what was

19 that area called?

20 A. This is pista.

21 Q. The smaller red building that is somewhat to your right, what

22 building was that?

23 A. This was the administrative building and the restaurant.

24 Q. Can you see the smaller white building on the model?

25 A. Yes, from here.

Page 3032

1 Q. What was that building?

2 A. This was the white house.

3 Q. As you look at this model before you, was this the setup of Omarska

4 camp as it was when you were there in 1992?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When you first arrived at Omarska, what happened?

7 A. They brought us there, here, took us out, and lined us up against the

8 wall of this building.

9 Q. I noticed that you initially pointed to an area in the pista and then

10 you pointed to an area near what you have identified as the

11 administration or restaurant building. Sir, if I could ask you for

12 the moment if you would refrain from pointing and later I will ask you

13 to point to some positions. Sir, once you were lined up what was done,

14 what happened to you?

15 A. We were ordered to take out everything from our pockets or whatever

16 we had, and we also had some bags in Keraterm. We were carrying

17 around underwear and things like that. They all took it away from us

18 and then they took us towards the hangar. When they took us there, I

19 did not know it was called the white house, but on the other side they

20 took us to the door to the first floor and to the first room to the

21 right, and we learnt later on that it was called 15.

22 Q. So they took you into the hangar up on to the first floor and they

23 put you in the first room on the right at the top of the stairs, is

24 that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3033

1 Q. That was room No. 15, you learned later?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. When you first arrived at Omarska, as you were being searched and as

4 you were being moved to this room 15, were you beaten or otherwise

5 abused?

6 A. Not that day.

7 Q. When you first arrived at Omarska did you see other detainees -----

8 A. Excuse me. I cannot hear very well.

9 Q. I am sorry. When you first arrived at Omarska did you see other

10 detainees at the camp?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Where were these other detainees, what general area?

13 A. The first I saw were on the pista.

14 Q. When you saw them on the pista, what was their position, their body

15 was positioned how on the pista?

16 A. They were all lying down prone.

17 Q. I would like to ask you a few questions about conditions at Omarska

18 camp while you were there. While you were there, how many times a day

19 were you fed?

20 A. Once or no times at all.

21 Q. When you were fed what type of food did you receive?

22 A. Well, water. I do not know really what to call it, it was not soup,

23 no spices, nothing, almost without salt.

24 Q. How much time were you given to eat this one meal a day that you

25 sometimes received?

Page 3034

1 A. Well, we knew it was three minutes.

2 Q. Where did you have this one meal a day?

3 A. In the administrative building where the restaurant is.

4 Q. What would happen if you took more than three minutes for a meal?

5 A. I, well, you really do not feel very hungry if I told you about that;

6 we were beaten.

7 Q. Were you given water to drink while you were at the Omarska camp?

8 A. Very seldom.

9 Q. This water that you were given to drink, what was the quality of this

10 water?

11 A. It was perhaps from the River Gomenica; it must have been industrial

12 effluence, I guess.

13 Q. Was there a particular taste or smell to this water?

14 A. It was dirty. It was running through those large pipes that are used

15 to wash their trucks, those dumper trucks, or other vehicles they had

16 there in the camp.

17 Q. You have indicated that you were held in Omarska from early June

18 until 6th August; what were the temperatures like during the time you

19 were held there?

20 A. That year the heat was unbearable.

21 Q. What were the hygienic conditions like when you were there?

22 A. I had a bath practically on the eve of my departure to Manjaca.

23 Q. Were there adequate toilets or other facilities for the people at the

24 camp?

25 A. No.

Page 3035

1 Q. When you were first taken to the camps, do you know what your weight

2 was?

3 A. Well, about 100 kilogrammes.

4 Q. While you were at Omarska or later at Manjaca were you ever weighed?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Where was that that you were weighed?

7 A. I think it was the Rote Kreuz, or whatever it was called, when they

8 arrived first, I would not know the date, but they were the ones who

9 weighed us.

10 Q. So this was the Red Cross that weighed you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. At that time how much weight had you lost?

13 A. About 32 kilogrammes.

14 Q. You said that when you first arrived you were taken to room 15 in the

15 hangar building. Could you tell us how long you were held in room 15?

16 A. Until the interrogation.

17 Q. About how long were you in the camp before you were interrogated?

18 A. Some 12 days or so, 10, 12 days. I know the day when I was

19 interrogated for the first time.

20 Q. At this point if we can please unplug the overhead projector and plug

21 in the camera for the model? If we can also have the roof taken off,

22 the lower roof, on the hangar building? Sir, at this time I am going

23 to ask you to move around to the side or the front of the model and

24 point to the room in which you were held, the room which was called

25 room 15. Before you do that, let me also ask that when you look into

Page 3036

1 that room you are going to see a number or some numbers on a piece of

2 paper in the room and I am going to ask you to tell us what that

3 number is. You may want to take off your headphones as you move

4 around and then you can put on headphones that are near the

5 Registrar's table. So if you would take off your headphones now,

6 please, and take the pointer and move around so that you can see room

7 15? Sir, if you could come to my side of the model towards me, can

8 you see room 15?

9 THE INTERPRETER: Could one of the microphones be turned towards the

10 witness, please?

11 MISS HOLLIS: Could you please point with the pointer to room 15?

12 A. (The witness indicated on the model)

13 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I would note that he is pointing to the large

14 room that has B7. It appears to be B23. Sir, while you are looking

15 at that, could you please point to the door through which you were

16 brought into that room?

17 A. (The witness indicated on the model).

18 Q. If you could point to the inside of that door in the room?

19 A. (The witness indicated on the model).

20 Q. Thank you. Then if you could please resume your seat? The

21 technician may wish to resume his seat at this time.

22 Sir, while you were held in room 15, do you have any idea of

23 how many people were also held in this room with you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In your estimation, how many people were held in that room with you?

Page 3037

1 A. At that time while I was there about 300 people.

2 Q. Did you know any of these other people being held in room 15 with

3 you?

4 A. Most of them.

5 Q. The people that you knew, what was their ethnic group?

6 A. Muslim.

7 Q. You have indicated that you believe you were interrogated perhaps 10

8 or 12 days after you were taken to the camp. During the first week at

9 the camp were you interrogated?

10 A. No.

11 Q. When you speak in terms of weeks, do you speak in terms of a week as

12 Monday to the next Monday?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So, for that first week until the next Monday you were not

15 interrogated, is that correct?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Then the second week that you were there, during the week itself,

18 prior to the weekend, were you interrogated?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When were you interrogated?

21 A. Saturday.

22 Q. So, Monday through Friday you were not interrogated?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Then Saturday was the first time you were taken for interrogation?

25 A. Yes, that was the second week, not the first week.

Page 3038

1 Q. All right. Prior to that interrogation, that first time you were

2 taken for interrogation on a Saturday, do you recall an incident

3 involving a man named Meho Alic during which incident Meho Alic was

4 called out of room 15?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What did you observe happen during this incident involving Meho Alic?

7 A. Meho -- a guard came in that I did not know from before. He opened

8 the door and he called out "Meho Alic". He got up, and then he asked

9 for Meho Alic to go out and find his son.

10 Q. So the guard came to the door; was this the same door that you showed

11 us earlier into room 15?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So he came to that door and he called "Meho Alic" and then Meho Alic

14 stood up?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Then he asked Meho Alic something about his son?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What did he ask Meho Alic to do?

19 A. He asked, he wanted Meho to go and find his son Eno.

20 Q. After he told Meho that is what he wanted, did Meho then leave room

21 15?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. On this occasion when Meho was called out of room 15, do you recall

24 if any other men in that room were also called out?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3039

1 Q. Who was that?

2 A. Emir Beganovic and Senad Muslimovic left the room.

3 Q. Did you know any of these three men before this incident?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How many of these men did you know before the incident?

6 A. I knew Meho, Began, and naturally Senad who was Halid Muslimovic's

7 brother.

8 Q. While Meho was gone from the room, what did you hear?

9 A. It is hard to say. We heard what we would rather not have heard.

10 There was sounds of breaking, screams. There was one scream that I

11 particularly remember it. I still have goose bumps when I remember it

12 now. I cannot even describe this.

13 Q. Did Meho Alic eventually come back to the room, room 15, that day?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When he came back to the room what was his behaviour or demeanour?

16 A. Let me tell you, he could not even walk. He was pale. He came back

17 and sat down. Nobody even asked him anything.

18 Q. To your recollection, what time of the day was it that Meho Alic was

19 called from the room?

20 A. It was in the afternoon.

21 Q. To your recollection, how many days before your first interrogation

22 did this incident occur?

23 A. Two days.

24 Q. You indicated that Meho Alic was asked to leave the room and find his

25 son Eno. Did you know his son Eno?

Page 3040

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you know Eno by any other name other than Eno?

3 A. We all called him either "Alic" which was his last name, Eno Alic,

4 and we all knew him under that last name. "Eno" is short for his full

5 first name.

6 Q. When Meho was called out, were you in the area of room 15 that was

7 closest to the door?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Was Meho Alic also in that area of the room?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. The guard who called out to Meho Alic, did you recognise this guard?

12 A. No.

13 Q. What was this guard wearing?

14 A. He also had camouflage uniform.

15 Q. You have mentioned that your relative Jasmin or Jasko Hrnic was also

16 in Omarska camp. Since this incident involving Meho Alic, have you

17 ever seen your relative Jasmin Hrnic?

18 A. No.

19 Q. You have indicated that you believe you were first interrogated on a

20 weekend a Saturday. In total, how many times were you taken for

21 interrogation while you were at Omarska?

22 A. Five times.

23 Q. In what building were those interrogations held?

24 A. Administrative building.

25 Q. During those five times you were taken for interrogation, were you

Page 3041

1 interrogated in rooms both on the ground floor and the first floor of

2 that building?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The times that you were taken for interrogation who would escort you

5 for these interrogations?

6 A. They were certain young men and, apparently, each was working for a

7 certain inspector.

8 Q. Did you know any of the people that escorted you?

9 A. No.

10 Q. What did they wear?

11 A. Some had camouflage uniforms and some guards had police uniforms.

12 Q. The people who interrogated you, did you know any of them?

13 A. Only one.

14 Q. Who was that?

15 A. That was Laic -- Lakic.

16 Q. Lakic was from where?

17 A. Lakic was from Prijedor.

18 Q. To your knowledge, what was Lakic's ethnic group?

19 A. Serb.

20 Q. These other interrogators, do you know where they came from?

21 A. Some were from Prijedor and some from Banja Luka.

22 Q. How do you know that they were from Prijedor or Banja Luka?

23 A. We were in pista and I found this out while I was in pista. They

24 would come in several cars from Banja Luka, and the bus was coming

25 from Prijedor.

Page 3042

1 Q. How did you know that?

2 A. We could see while we were on the pista, and through what we heard

3 from the others who were there, but we could also see that. We could

4 see the cars and the bus as they came.

5 Q. What was it about these cars and buses that made you know they were

6 from Banja Luka or Prijedor?

7 A. The ones that came from Prijedor, they all had Banja Luka license

8 plates and the bus belonged to Rudar, the football club Rudar, Ljubija

9 and Omarska, they were all together in one group.

10 Q. My translation indicates that the ones that came from Prijedor all

11 had Banja Luka license plates. Is that correct? The Prijedor vehicles

12 had Banja Luka licensed plates?

13 A. I either did not understand or -- the cars had came from Prijedor.

14 The bus had Prijedor license plates.

15 Q. Those from Banja Luka had what kind of license plates?

16 A. There was no bus from Banja Luka there.

17 Q. The vehicles that came from Banja Luka had what kind of license

18 plates?

19 A. Banja Luka.

20 Q. During the times that you were taken for interrogation were you

21 beaten or otherwise abused?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What happened to you? What type of abuse or beatings did you

24 receive?

25 A. The first time I was beaten on the ground floor, that was Monday, and

Page 3043

1 that was during the second interrogation I was beaten unconscious. I

2 managed to leave that room and go back to pista, until the next time.

3 Then again I was called out by these people from Banja Luka. I went

4 on the floor and I had to kneel there on a square that was maybe 50

5 by 50. Those were the squares like these ones in the courtroom.

6 Q. You are pointing down to the squares of the carpeting on the

7 courtroom?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So you were made to kneel on a square that was approximately what, 50

10 centimetres by 50 centimetres?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. While you were kneeling there what was done to you?

13 A. First, they warned us not to leave that square, and they would hit us

14 from the back so that immediately you would have to leave the square.

15 Then they would use their feet to put us back on the square. Then

16 they would hit us with the sticks and whatever they had. There were

17 three men there that beat me, and after that I did not even feel the

18 blows. I did not care.

19 Q. After this second beating where were you taken, back to room 15 or

20 back to some other area?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Where did you go?

23 A. After the second beating or the second interrogation?

24 Q. The second interrogation, I am sorry.

25 A. They took me back to pista.

Page 3044

1 Q. You indicated that during your second interrogation, your first

2 beating, you were beaten unconscious. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes, I was unconscious. I was half conscious during the second

4 interrogation and the first beating. That was Monday.

5 Q. During any of these interrogations were you asked to sign anything?

6 A. I do not remember.

7 Q. What types of questions were you asked during the interrogations?

8 A. Most often they wanted to know my personal information. Then they

9 asked about these people and these people where was this guy, where

10 was this one, about people up the road, and then they would ask me to

11 admit that I with my truck brought weapons into Kozarac.

12 Q. Did you with your truck bring weapons into Kozarac?

13 A. No.

14 Q. When you told them no, did the beatings stop?

15 A. No.

16 Q. During these beatings how many times were you beaten until you were

17 almost unconscious?

18 A. I could not tell you that but, for me, it seemed like an eternity.

19 Q. When you would leave the room after these beatings and come into the

20 hallway, what would happen to you in the hallway?

21 A. It was even worse than the room.

22 Q. What would happen?

23 A. We had to go down the stairs and this is, they waited for us like the

24 five or six soldiers, the same ones that took us upstairs, and the

25 same people that were at the entrance. While we were going down the

Page 3045

1 stairs -- this was an art of going down the stairs, and many people

2 fell victims there at the entrance of the building.

3 Q. What would happen as people tried to go down the stairs?

4 A. They would first hit from the back, in the back, by feet, so people

5 would fall on the first landing. This is where they caught up with

6 the person, and then they would kick him down the stairs until the

7 exit, and then in the corner where the stairs begin and where this

8 first interrogation room is. This is where many people ended up, had

9 their last moments.

10 Q. When you talk about going down the stairs, are you talking about the

11 stairs that are in the location of that rounded portion of the

12 administration building?

13 A. Yes, exactly in that round part.

14 Q. What type of injuries or bruising did you suffer as a result of these

15 beatings?

16 A. I had no bones broken at that time, but I was bruised. I could not be

17 more bruised than I was. It is hard to describe. I was completely

18 bruised, my chest my legs. I cannot even talk about the back because

19 I did not see them; other people saw my back. Here I could see this

20 part of my body and it was black. We almost knew it was rotten after

21 the beatings.

22 Q. Sir, what part of your body were you touching when you said this part

23 of your body you were black? What part of your body is that?

24 A. Kidneys.

25 Q. Did you ever receive any type of medical care after these beatings?

Page 3046

1 A. From my colleagues. My colleague gave me his wet t-shirt and they

2 put it around this area.

3 Q. Did the camp personnel ever provide you with any type of medical care

4 after these beatings?

5 A. Nobody did that other than my friends, inmates.

6 Q. Who were the people who beat you in the interrogation rooms and then

7 in the hallways as you left?

8 A. Those were all Serbs.

9 Q. How long were you held out on the pista at Omarska camp?

10 A. I spent there about three weeks.

11 Q. While you were on the pista, how long would you be kept on the pista

12 itself each day?

13 A. We were there from the dawn until the dark. I could say from dark to

14 dark.

15 Q. So from just before dawn until it became dark again at night?

16 A. Yes, from dawn, when it was dawning they would take us out and then

17 when it started becoming dark they would bring us in.

18 Q. Where did you sleep at night?

19 A. I slept in the canteen.

20 Q. When you say the canteen, do you refer to the restaurant portion of

21 the administration building?

22 A. Yes, that is a restaurant where we went to have lunch.

23 Q. During the day while you were being held on the pista, what did you

24 do?

25 A. We were mostly there facing down lying on our stomachs. We had to

Page 3047

1 lie down the whole day. We could not even raise our heads or even get

2 up. Sometimes they let us sit down depending on the guards.

3 Sometimes they would let us drink this water that was there on the

4 side.

5 Q. While you were on the pista lying down on your stomach, in what

6 direction would your head be facing - toward the hangar building or

7 back toward the administration building?

8 A. Toward the hangar.

9 Q. When you lay on your stomach in that position, how would you position

10 your face? Would your face be faced down to the concrete or would you

11 have your face turned to the left or the right?

12 A. To the left and to the right.

13 Q. When you were lying face down with your face turned either to the

14 left or to the right, were you able to see people?

15 A. Yes, we could always see people.

16 Q. Now while you were laying out on the pista area, how many people

17 would you estimate were also out on the pista with you?

18 A. I believe around 300, 400 people were there. That is what I think,

19 300 to 400 people. I cannot tell exactly. The pista was full. I did

20 not have an opportunity to count for sure and I cannot exactly

21 remember the groups, and there were 30 groups usually going out to

22 lunch. But there were many of us there.

23 Q. While you would be lying there at the pista on your stomach, would

24 there be any areas between these rows of people, any areas where

25 guards could walk?

Page 3048

1 A. It was not an organised group, but we normally had one row and then a

2 second row and I cannot tell you what was the distance between the

3 rows.

4 Q. So would you have two rows together and then some type of open space

5 and then another two rows?

6 A. No. Let me tell you. We were lying like sardines from the hangar.

7 There was a row there and then a row here, and this is how it was up

8 until the restaurant building.

9 Q. Was there any area at all on this pista where the guards could walk

10 among you?

11 A. If they wanted to. If they came by people would automatically make

12 space for them.

13 Q. Where were you taken once you left the pista?

14 A. They took me -- actually I did this myself -- to the administration

15 building, to the right. There was an entrance by the garage.

16 Q. How long were you held there?

17 A. Until the end of my stay in Omarska camp.

18 Q. You have testified about the beatings that you suffered during the

19 interrogations. After the interrogations were you ever beaten again?

20 A. During my stay or while I was interrogated again?

21 Q. During your stay in Omarska.

22 A. It was on a daily basis, but not too much, passing by sort of, as the

23 guards would pass by. Depending on the mood they would hit us, but we

24 would just keep silent and go on.

25 Q. While you were at Omarska camp did you ever personally observe others

Page 3049

1 in the camp being beaten?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you know any of these other people who were beaten?

4 A. At one time they were in room No. 15, I remember that well, and then

5 I remember when they started beating Beganovic at the entrance to the

6 white house. This is what I remember the best.

7 Q. Beganovic and these others that you saw being beaten, to your

8 knowledge what was their ethnic group?

9 A. Beganovic was a Muslim and the others, there was a group of Croats,

10 maybe three or four, I cannot remember exactly, they might have been

11 brothers. First they had to beat themselves and they refused to do

12 that, and they were beating them there. We had to lie down on the

13 pista, and we did not even try to look and see what was happening and

14 then I never saw those people again.

15 Q. The other people in addition to this incident, the other people that

16 you saw beaten at Omarska, what was their ethnic group?

17 A. That was a Muslim, Beganovic.

18 Q. But in addition to this incident, were there other times you saw

19 detainees beaten at Omarska camp?

20 A. We could see beatings every day, every day. They were mostly

21 Muslims in the camp and there were some Croats, but they were mostly

22 Muslims.

23 Q. These beatings that you saw, who were the ones who were doing the

24 beating?

25 A. The guards would be coming and beating, people who were coming there

Page 3050

1 for a visit. Inspectors beat us too, inspectors who would be

2 conducting interrogations and, so to speak, almost anybody who wanted

3 and who felt like it could beat us.

4 Q. While you were at Omarska camp did you ever see detainees taken away

5 at night and never return after they were taken away?

6 A. During the day, day was mostly used for beating us, but the nights

7 were terrible for us. Nobody could sleep. We could not sleep because

8 they were calling out people every night, and those people that were

9 called out, some were beaten, but most of those that were called out,

10 they never came back.

11 Q. Did you know any of these people who were called out at night?

12 A. There were too many.

13 Q. Of the ones that you knew, what was their ethnic group?

14 A. Muslim.

15 Q. These men who would be taken out at night, who would take them out?

16 A. Guards who were there on duty.

17 Q. While you were at Omarska camp did you ever see any corpses in the

18 camp?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you recognise any of those corpses?

21 A. We saw many corpses. I recognised my brother's corpse.

22 Q. Do you recall when it was that you saw your brother's body?

23 A. That was after the second interrogation or the first time when I was

24 beaten. This is the first time when I came out to the pista. I was

25 at the restaurant and I spent the night there.

Page 3051

1 Q. Did you see your brother's body on the same day, this Monday, that

2 you were first beaten or did you see it the next morning?

3 A. Morning.

4 Q. I believe you indicated you were in the restaurant when you saw your

5 brother, is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When you saw your brother, where did you see him?

8 A. I saw him in front of the restaurant on a green area, on the grassy

9 area. He was lying there.

10 Q. Did you recognise your brother?

11 A. At first I did not know that. I was not paying attention. I did not

12 even see because I was beaten up, and then I was told that my brother

13 died there and he was taken out there. They took me there and showed

14 me and then I could see.

15 Q. This was your brother Dalija?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. If you could please stand up and take the pointer, and if you could

18 show the court where it was that you saw your brother's body. If you

19 could step toward me, please. If you could step toward me so that the

20 Judges may see. If you could please point to where you saw your

21 brother's body?

22 A. (The witness indicated on the model).

23 Q. I would note that the witness is pointing to an area at the very edge

24 of the model beyond the end of the restaurant portion of the

25 administration building, and just a small way into the grass from the

Page 3052

1 concrete area.

2 Thank you, Mr. Hrnic. If you would please resume your seat.

3 Sir, while you were at Omarska camp, did you ever see corpses taken

4 away from the camp?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How often would you see this done?

7 A. It was every morning. Every night we could hear that. It was mostly

8 done early in the morning they would drive them away, but it was

9 mostly on a daily basis.

10 Q. How were these bodies transported from the camp?

11 A. I did not understand the question, I am sorry?

12 Q. How were these bodies transported from the camp, what type of

13 vehicle?

14 A. A tannish, yellow colour with a double driver's area. Then the

15 loading area was open and we could see it every morning.

16 Q. Where would you be when you saw these bodies being transported from

17 the camp?

18 A. We could see easily from the restaurant.

19 Q. What would be the location of these bodies that you saw transported

20 from the camp?

21 A. Usually they were where I showed you where my brother was lying, and

22 sometimes they were carrying them out above the white house. I do not

23 know from this side, this is, I could see this side that I was facing,

24 looking at it from the restaurant.

25 Q. Your Honour, at this time if I could have this document which is

Page 3053

1 document Z3 20-7 called up on the computer, and also if the Registrar

2 could mark this the next Prosecution Exhibit in order which is I

3 believe 232.

4 Sir, as you look at this photograph Prosecution Exhibit 232

5 for identification, does this show the type of vehicle that you saw

6 transporting bodies from Omarska camp?

7 A. Yes.

8 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I would offer Prosecution Exhibit 232 for

9 identification.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

11 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 232 will be admitted.

13 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, it might be an appropriate time to break for

14 the day.

15 JUDGE VOHRAH: Miss Hollis, at some stage of these proceedings could you

16 introduce a floor plan of the hangar, please?

17 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will adjourn until tomorrow at 10 a.m.

19 (5.30 p.m.)

20 (The court adjourned until the following day).

21

22

23

24

25