Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3054

1 THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL TRIBUNAL CASE NO. IT-94-1-T

2 FOR THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA

3 THE TRIAL CHAMBER

4 Friday, 21st June 1996

5 (10.00 a.m.)

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Wladimiroff? I was going to tell you to

7 continue, Miss IN Hollis, but I believe that Mr. Wladimiroff has

8 something that he wants to talk about. Yes, sir?

9 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Thank you, your Honour. There is a small matter I want

10 to raise, that is, next week the Defence will leave for Bosnia. For

11 that reason, I have to prepare some things and, therefore, cannot be

12 always in court. Since Mr. Orie is abroad, I would like to ask the

13 court to permit Miss de Bertodano to address the court, if necessary.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. who?

15 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Miss de Bertodano who is a qualified barrister.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: She has been with us many days. That is fine. We

17 will miss you next week, but we understand. Very good. That is

18 acceptable. Did you hear what Judge Stephen said? That is fine.

19 Thank you.

20 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Thank you very much.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, would you like to continue, please?

22 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour.

23 MR. SAUD HRNIC, recalled.

24 Examined by MISS HOLLIS, continued.

25 Q. Mr. Hrnic, I would remind you that you are still under oath today.

Page 3055

1 Sir, yesterday you testified about five occasions during which you

2 were interrogated and you said that you thought the first

3 interrogation had occurred on a Saturday, is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You indicated that the second occasion you were taken for

6 interrogation was a Monday, is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Was that the following Monday, two days after the Saturday

9 interrogation?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You indicated in your testimony yesterday that you saw your brother's

12 body on a Tuesday, was that the Tuesday after your second

13 interrogation?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You also testified yesterday about the beatings that you received

16 during your interrogations. Was Zeljko Meakic ever present during any

17 of those beatings?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did he ever participate in those beatings?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What did he do to you?

22 A. Well, I was in the interrogation room and there were others beat me.

23 Zeljko Meakic entered and they stopped beating me and he laughed,

24 kicked me with his foot and then turned and left the room and closed

25 the door behind him.

Page 3056

1 Q. Yesterday you also testified about an incident during which a man you

2 referred to as "Began" and a few other individuals were beaten. This

3 "Began" that you referred to, was this the same Began you had referred

4 to as being called from room 15?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. This beating that you saw in which Began and a few other individuals

7 were beaten, did this occur before or after the incident with Meho

8 Alic?

9 A. I would not be able to say.

10 Q. Did you recognise the person or persons who beat Began and these other

11 individuals?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Who did you recognise?

14 A. It was Zigic.

15 Q. Did you see Began again after this beating by Zigic?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Where was it that you saw him?

18 A. I saw him when he returned to room 15 again.

19 Q. Did you see his condition after this beating?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What did you see?

22 A. His head was all beaten up. He was all battered. He could not move.

23 His right or left arm, I do not know exactly, was bleeding, bleeding

24 a lot. Somebody brought a tissue to something so we bandaged his arm.

25 Q. If I could have the technician, please, at the video camera? Sir,

Page 3057

1 yesterday you spoke about certain incidents occurring in certain areas

2 at Omarska. For clarification, I would ask you to again come to the

3 model and point to certain areas as I ask you questions. Again if you

4 would remove your headphones there, come around the corner and use the

5 head phones at the Registrar's desk?

6 Sir, yesterday you indicated that for a portion of your stay at

7 Omarska you were in room 15. At one point you did show the court

8 where that room was. I would ask you again to point to room 15.

9 A. (The witness indicated on the model).

10 Q. The witness is pointing to the area that is marked with the numbers

11 B7. There appear to be two smaller enclosures within that room, one

12 marked B8 and one marked B23. If you would look at B8, please, and

13 tell us what was that enclosure?

14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness be given a microphone, please?

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You need to speak into the microphone.

16 THE WITNESS: There were large concrete blocks.

17 MISS HOLLIS: What was that room used for?

18 A. It was probably when workers came so that they could wash their hands

19 and things like that.

20 Q. The room that is marked B23, the area that is marked B23, what was

21 that used for when you were in the camp?

22 A. Those were shower booths.

23 Q. This large area with B7 and also containing B8 and B23, this entire

24 area was what was known as room 15?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3058

1 Q. Also standing there would you please point out for the court the door

2 through which you would enter the hangar and go into room 15? (The

3 witness indicated on the model) Your Honours, if you would note that

4 that is the door that is immediately below B7. You also testified

5 yesterday that you spent a period of time on the pista while you were

6 at Omarska. Could you please point out for the court the area of the

7 pista on which you stayed while you were at Omarska?

8 A. (The witness indicated on the model).

9 Q. The area that you pointed to, if you will look to the back of that

10 model, you will find a yellow sticky with the letter "W" on it. If

11 you could take that yellow sticky with the letter "W" on it and if you

12 could place it where you would typically be on the pista?

13 If you will look at the building immediately in front of you, the

14 smaller red building, this is the administration building, is that

15 correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. If you could point out to the court the area of the administration

18 building in which you would sleep at night while you were on the

19 pista?

20 A. (The witness indicated on the model).

21 Q. I would note that the witness is pointing to the area with the number

22 A22. Was this the same area that you received your meal each day that

23 you received a meal?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was this the area you were in the morning that you looked and saw your

Page 3059

1 brother's body?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. If you will also look at the pista you will see the front of the

4 restaurant building. If you could come around so you can see the

5 entry side of the restaurant building and if you could point out for

6 the court the window through which you would see detainees being

7 kicked and hit down the stairs?

8 A. (The witness indicated on the model).

9 Q. I would note that he is pointing to the window on the rounded

10 structure of the building above the number A21. Thank you, sir. If

11 you would please resume your seat at the witness table?

12 Sir, yesterday you testified that you were able to see these people

13 being kicked and falling down these stairs when you were on the pista.

14 You have also indicated that when you were lying on your stomach on

15 the pista you were lying with your head in the direction of the hangar

16 building. Could you tell the court how you are able to see

17 individuals being kicked down these stairs?

18 A. Well, whilst we were on the pista we were mostly in the prone

19 position, but when you lie that way you can turn around, look, look

20 under your arm. It was simply impossible to lie down all the day

21 round without moving. On quite a number of occasions we sat on the

22 pista; it all depended on the guard who was there. So that we could

23 see, or even when we went from the pista to have our lunch, the same

24 thing happened.

25 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, during the testimony yesterday the witness made

Page 3060

1 reference to certain days of the week and to certain dates. At this

2 time I would ask that the court judicially notice the calendar months

3 of April 1992 through December 1992. To assist the court, I have

4 asked that a computer printout of those months of that year be

5 produced. I have copies for the Judges. I have provided a copy to

6 the Defence.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection, Mr. Wladimiroff?

8 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will mark that as exhibit -- what is the next

10 number? 233. 233 will be admitted.

11 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, in that regard I would ask that the Trial

12 Chamber note that 24th May was a Sunday, that the following Tuesday

13 was 26th May, the following Wednesday was 27th May. I would also ask

14 the Chamber to note that 8th June fell on a Monday.

15 Mr. Hrnic, during the time that you were at Omarska did you see Dule

16 Tadic at Omarska?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. On how many occasions did you see Dule Tadic at Omarska?

19 A. Once.

20 Q. On that occasion what was Dule Tadic wearing?

21 A. He was wearing then a uniform, summer camouflage uniform.

22 Q. What was he doing when you saw him?

23 A. I do not know what he was doing. I know I saw him on the pista where

24 I was. Whether he was moving or standing still, I do not know.

25 Q. Was he standing up when you saw him, standing upright or sitting?

Page 3061

1 A. Standing, standing.

2 Q. To your recollection, did he have any weapons in his hands or on his

3 person?

4 A. I do not remember.

5 Q. To your recollection, was he carrying anything in his hands?

6 A. I cannot claim it with certainty, but I think he had something that

7 looked like a file or something like that.

8 Q. When you say "a file", you mean a file such as a binder or a paper

9 type file?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When you saw him, do you recall if he had a beard or appeared to be

12 clean shaven?

13 A. I do not know.

14 Q. When did you see him? Was this after you had been moved from room 15

15 to the pista?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. When you saw him, what position was your body in? Were you sitting,

18 lying, crouching? How were you positioned?

19 A. Lying down.

20 Q. Lying down, what, on your stomach, on your back?

21 A. On my stomach.

22 Q. In what direction was your head positioned?

23 A. Towards the hangar.

24 Q. How was your face positioned when you saw him? Were you looking down?

25 Was your face turned to the side?

Page 3062

1 A. At that particular moment it was turned to the side.

2 Q. Which side, left or right?

3 A. Right.

4 Q. So as you lay facing the hangar, you are faced to the right, it would

5 have been to the right in the direction of the grass and the white

6 house?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. If we could have the technician come back, please, and, Mr. Hrnic, if

9 I could ask you once again to stand, to move to the model and to

10 indicate to the court where you were when you saw Dule Tadic, and also

11 take the other yellow sticky and indicate where Dule Tadic was when

12 you saw him?

13 A. I was here, and Dule Tadic was approximately here.

14 Q. Sir, since my view was blocked of your first indication, did you

15 indicate you were in the same position you normally were on the pista?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Then if you could resume your seat, sir? Thank you. Your Honour, we

18 are going to attempt with this equipment that we have to have a

19 photograph taken that will show these two markers. We have tried it

20 earlier; it turns out fairly well. So we are going to attempt to have

21 that done.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you wish to do that now?

23 MISS HOLLIS: It is going to take some time so if I could continue with

24 the .....

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Those stickies, I do not know whether they have

Page 3063

1 really been pressed down hard or not?

2 MISS HOLLIS: Perhaps the technician could check that, to make sure the

3 stickies are in place for the photo?

4 Mr. Hrnic, on the occasion that you saw Dule Tadic, did you see any

5 other persons standing with him?

6 A. I do not remember.

7 Q. On the occasion that you saw him, was anything or anyone blocking your

8 view of Dule Tadic?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you see him during the day or during the night?

11 A. In the day.

12 Q. Was it a sunny day or a cloudy day?

13 A. I think it was sunny.

14 Q. Did the sunshine interfere with your ability to see him clearly?

15 A. No.

16 Q. After you recognised Dule Tadic, what did you do?

17 A. When I saw him at that moment, if I may put it that way, I kissed the

18 pista, that is, I bed my head down so that he would not see me.

19 Q. Why did you react that way?

20 A. Well, after that incident that had taken place that other people had

21 talked about, I was simply frightened. I was afraid because he also

22 knew me and in Omarska it usually was that an acquaintance killed his

23 acquaintances.

24 Q. Mr. Hrnic, would you please look around the courtroom very carefully

25 and I would ask you that if you see Dule Tadic in the courtroom if you

Page 3064

1 would please point to him?

2 A. (The witness indicated).

3 Q. Could you tell us where he is sitting?

4 A. He is sitting in the back between two policemen and there is a third

5 one standing next to him.

6 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, if I could note a proper identification of the

7 accused?

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, the record will reflect that the witness has

9 identified the accused.

10 MISS HOLLIS: Sir, the gentleman to whom you just pointed, is that the

11 Dule Tadic that you saw in Omarska?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Is that the Dule Tadic that you knew from Kozarac?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You told us earlier that from Omarska camp you were taken to Manjaca

16 camp. How were you taken there?

17 A. I was taken by buses.

18 Q. Were these civilian or military buses?

19 A. Civilian.

20 Q. How long were you held in Manjaca?

21 A. Until 15th December '92.

22 Q. Where were you taken to from Manjaca?

23 A. They took us to Karlovac.

24 Q. Sir, when you left Manjaca and went to Karlovac, leaving behind your

25 home and business in your home area, did you do that because you truly

Page 3065

1 wanted to leave or because you felt you had no choice but to leave?

2 A. We had no other choice.

3 Q. Since the time that you left Bosnia have you been back to opstina

4 Prijedor?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Is that because you choose not to go back or because you feel you

7 cannot go back to your home?

8 A. I feel I cannot go back.

9 MISS HOLLIS: No further questions, your Honour.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Will there be cross-examination, Mr. Kay?

11 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour.

12 Cross-examined by MR. KAY

13 Q. Mr. Hrnic, you told the court yesterday that you knew Dusko Tadic from

14 Kozarac and that you had had karate lessons with him; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. The karate class that he held in Kozarac contained Muslims like

17 yourself as well as Serbs as well as Croats; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. There came a stage when as you were older you went into business and

20 am I right in thinking that you lived outside Kozarac for some time,

21 in Trnopolje?

22 A. No.

23 Q. It was not clear to me whether you had lived all the time in Kozarac,

24 in Marsala Tita Street, that you indicated on the plan or whether you

25 had also spent time away from Kozarac.

Page 3066

1 A. I was there the whole time. That area was known as Mutnik and I do

2 not know what year the name was changed into Marsala Tita, but the

3 whole time I lived there in Kozarac.

4 Q. Thank you. There came a stage when you said that Muslims were

5 restricted from leaving Kozarac because of the taking over of power in

6 Prijedor and orders were issued that restricted your travelling; is

7 that right?

8 A. I either did not understand well or -- after May 30th we moved towards

9 Prijedor and I think that we could go to Prijedor up until May 22nd

10 and come back from Prijedor as well.

11 Q. I just wanted you to confirm because it was suggested that Muslims

12 were restricted from travelling after the takeover of power in

13 Prijedor at the end of April?

14 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I believe perhaps counsel was misunderstanding.

15 The transcript, as I have it, the question was that after the

16 takeover did the witness have difficulties travelling between Kozarac

17 and Prijedor. He indicated, yes, he had difficulties. He was not

18 asked, he did not indicate at any point that he could not move between

19 those areas. I am referring to page 1981 of the transcript, your

20 Honour.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?

22 MR. KAY: I think other witnesses have also dealt with this subject

23 matter, as the court will recall as well.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I believe the objection would be that the question

25 is misleading because it assumes facts in evidence that are not in

Page 3067

1 evidence because that is not what the witness testified to yesterday.

2 Do you want to rephrase the question?

3 MR. KAY: I will rephrase the question, if that assists my learned friend.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Thank you.

5 MR. KAY (To the witness): Putting it simply then, Mr. Hrnic, would it be

6 right to say that you could travel to Prijedor after the takeover in

7 Prijedor?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you recollect that some Muslims left Kozarac completely during the

10 month of May after that takeover in Prijedor?

11 A. For always we still hoped that we eventually will come back to Kozarac

12 and, yes, some people have left Kozarac.

13 Q. Before the attack on Kozarac, some Muslim families left that town,

14 perhaps because they were worried about what was going to happen?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. I do not know whether you recollect the Arnautovic family? Did you

17 know them, Simo Arnautovic?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Or the Memic family? He was the leader of the SDA in Kozarac.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you recollect him leaving or his family leaving?

22 A. I know that he left only. I know that he left the area.

23 Q. You told the court that you were on a checkpoint duty up at Rajkovici

24 on the outskirts of Kozarac?

25 A. I did not have a duty. Yes, I was up there, but I did not have any

Page 3068

1 duty.

2 Q. You say you did not have a duty. Did you go there of your own free

3 will or did others suggest that you might go there to stand guard?

4 A. I went there because I felt I need to be there.

5 Q. How many others were there with you on duty in Rajkovici?

6 A. I could not give you an exact number. There was at all times about

7 five or six people.

8 Q. You have told us that you had a rifle, an automatic rifle; is that

9 right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did others have weapons as well?

12 A. Not all of them.

13 Q. But some did?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. The rifle that you had, is it right that it also had a telescopic

16 sight?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Are you telling the truth about that?

19 A. The truth.

20 Q. You have not told people investigating this case when you were

21 interviewed that you had a telescopic sight on your rifle?

22 A. That is not the truth.

23 Q. When you were on duty would it be right to say that you wore a

24 military uniform?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3069

1 Q. Did you wear a beret?

2 A. No -- beret is a top part of the uniform, yes.

3 Q. Did you wear a beret and by that I mean some form of cap?

4 A. Yes, I had some sort of a hat.

5 Q. Was it green in colour?

6 A. No, it was a camouflage one.

7 Q. Did you wear insignia on your uniform showing a lily, the flower of

8 the lily?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you used to wear that uniform around Kozarac?

11 A. When we were going from one checkpoint to another checkpoint.

12 Q. Did you stand duty on other checkpoints?

13 A. I did.

14 Q. Whereabouts were those checkpoints?

15 A. I would go to a checkpoint across from the sawmill, across the road.

16 Q. That would be the road leading from the Prijedor/Banja Luka highway

17 into Kozarac; is that right?

18 A. Road Prijedor/Banja Luka towards Mrakovica through Kozarac.

19 Q. The checkpoint that you were on at Rajkovici, was there another Muslim

20 man who stood duty on there called Sahib Salkanovic?

21 A. I do not recognise the last name.

22 Q. Did you stand duty then there with a man called Sahib?

23 A. Sahid?

24 Q. Sahib -- ending with a "B".

25 A. No, I do not recognise the name.

Page 3070

1 Q. Did the people change regularly on that duty post at Rajkovici?

2 A. Change, no.

3 Q. When you were not on duty there, were others standing on duty there?

4 A. I was there on my own free will and that was a checkpoint that was in

5 -- that the Kozarac police station was in charge of, together with the

6 people from that area, and those people came to keep company and to

7 stay there with the guards at the checkpoint.

8 Q. You yourself did not work for the police, did you?

9 A. No.

10 Q. So, the position that you were standing on at Rajkovici, was that to

11 do with the TO, the reserve force?

12 A. I did not understand well. I repeat it to you that there was a police

13 checkpoint that was manned by people from TO, and that were from that

14 area of the town and who stayed there at the checkpoint on the main

15 road.

16 Q. Yes, I am talking about the checkpoint at Rajkovici which was usually

17 where you were positioned; is that right?

18 A. I was there often.

19 Q. I was just wondering from what official body, if there was any, that

20 caused you to become positioned there; were you a member of the TO?

21 Was it because you were in the TO?

22 A. We were organised on our own free will.

23 Q. When you say "organised", who did that organisation?

24 A. No-one organised us. We knew what our fate would be. We could guess

25 it and we tried to organise and have the guards so that we could avoid

Page 3071

1 the problems.

2 Q. I understand what you say about that, but when did you obtain your

3 rifle?

4 A. I did not get it.

5 Q. You told us that you had an automatic rifle. Had you had that many

6 years or did you buy it in 1992?

7 A. Yes, I bought it.

8 Q. In 1992?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I would like to move now to another matter and that concerns after you

11 had left Kozarac, after the attack on it, and returned on what would

12 have been the Tuesday and with others walked in a column down Marsala

13 Tita Street. First of all, can you tell the court what time it was

14 that you reached the junction of old Kula and Marsala Tita Street?

15 MISS HOLLIS: Excuse me again, your Honour.

16 THE WITNESS: That was not Tuesday; that was Wednesday.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Go ahead.

18 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour, that is what I was going to correct. The

19 transcript indicates that when he actually joined the column and

20 marched down to the intersection was Wednesday; Tuesday was when he

21 saw Osman Braco.

22 MR. KAY: I am much obliged. Yes, that is my mistake. I am talking about

23 the Wednesday, but I think you understand what I am referring to; is

24 that right?

25 A. I know that it was Wednesday morning.

Page 3072

1 Q. Yes. As to the time, can you help the court with that?

2 A. That was at dawn, as soon as the sun came out. I cannot tell you what

3 time it was, but at dawn we left from Besici and whatever it took us

4 to get to the junction in Kozarac.

5 Q. Were there many of you moving from Besici down to the junction in

6 Kozarac?

7 A. Well, approximately -- there were many, but there was a column behind

8 me. I was not in front of the column, but maybe 10 metres from the

9 front of the column.

10 Q. Can you recollect at all the names of the other people who were in the

11 column with you, who were around you?

12 A. Well, some of the people.

13 Q. Are you able to tell me who were they?

14 A. Dzevad Besic. His son was in front with him. They had white flags.

15 They were carrying the flags. His sister and his wife, and probably

16 there were other people there too. Those were the people that I knew,

17 but -----

18 Q. The name of his son that you mentioned?

19 A. I do not know. I do not know. That was Dzevad Besic, the father, and

20 then his son.

21 Q. When you were in Kozarac you told the court yesterday that you

22 recognised, amongst the police and soldiers wearing camouflage

23 uniform, someone you described as Gavro's son?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is Gavro's son called Milos Gajic?

Page 3073

1 A. I do not know.

2 Q. Otherwise known as -- or do you know him by another name, a nickname

3 of "Dusko" or "Dule"?

4 A. No.

5 Q. You referred to him as "Gavro's son". Did you know him well?

6 A. Not too well.

7 Q. About how old was he?

8 A. Around, I think I am not sure at that time, but about 35 to 40 years.

9 Q. He was dressed in camouflage uniform?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I would like now to turn to a different matter and that concerns the

12 time that you spent in Omarska. You also spent time in Keraterm; is

13 that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In that time that you were in Keraterm and Omarska did you see a man

16 called Zoran Zigic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you also see with him someone known as Dule Banovic?

19 A. Yes, I think Duca, his last name is Banovic.

20 Q. Otherwise known as "Dusko Banovic"?

21 A. Everyone called him "Duca".

22 Q. Or you knew him as "Dusko Banovic"; is that right?

23 A. No, no.

24 Q. I will have to put a statement to you, sir, if the court will give us

25 a moment? I would like you to look at this document that was an

Page 3074

1 interview at that took place in Germany on 30th March 1994 involving

2 matters concerned with this court, and during which there was a

3 criminal investigator from the German police as well as an interpreter

4 who spoke to you in your own language. I would like you to look at

5 this document and, most particularly, could you look at page 3? Thank

6 you, Mr. Usher. (Document was handed to the witness)

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What is your next exhibit number, Mr. Kay?

8 MR. KAY: D19.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: D19. That will be marked for identification

10 purposes as D19.

11 MR. KAY: Thank you.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Does the Prosecutor have a copy of that, Mr. Kay?

13 MR. KAY: I do not know whether they do or not; as it comes from the

14 German papers, I imagine they do, your Honour.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Have you provided with them with a copy?

16 MR. KAY: No.

17 MISS HOLLIS: This is the Serbo-Croatian translation of the German

18 statement? We do have that, your Honour.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good.

20 MR. KAY (To the witness): Can you see that statement there in front of

21 you which is a record of an interview that took place with you on 30th

22 March 1994? Can you see that, Mr. Hrnic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I want to take you quickly to page 3. You see at the top of the page

25 you mention names, Zoran Zigic; is that right?

Page 3075

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Dusko Banovic?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Spelt D-U-S-K-O?

5 A. In my text, in our language it says "Dusko".

6 Q. Yes, not Duca?

7 A. Dusko Banovic is a neighbour of my sister-in-law. This is where he

8 comes from. I did not know Duca before. I could not have known his

9 name or his last name. Everybody called him "Duca". When later I

10 came out and during the camp I found out, I am not sure exactly at

11 what time, so later I found out that that was Dusko Banovic.

12 Q. You knew he was a waiter; is that right?

13 A. I heard all of that.

14 Q. If you turn over the next page, page 4, do you see the name repeated

15 there again or is it elsewhere on page 3?

16 A. There are names on page 3.

17 Q. Yes. You mention the name Dusko Banovic more than once; is that

18 right?

19 A. That is possible, that is likely.

20 Q. Even further on in that statement towards the end on a later page, you

21 again refer to him as being someone you knew as a waiter?

22 A. I heard that he was a waiter, and I put that in my statement.

23 Q. You have referred to someone as "Duce"; by "Duce" you mean someone

24 else entirely, do you not, someone known as Duca Knezovic?

25 A. Duca was, I am not sure about Duca, but he was from Orlovci, I know

Page 3076

1 that, because he knew many people from Kozarusa itself. He beat

2 personally Fajzo from Kozarusa and many others.

3 Q. Dusko Banovic was someone that you saw in Omarska as well as Keraterm;

4 is that right?

5 A. I saw Duca in Keraterm almost daily; in Omarska, I do not remember

6 seeing him.

7 Q. Dusko Banovic you also saw in Omarska, did you not?

8 A. I do not remember seeing him.

9 Q. Perhaps if Mr. Bos could be so kind to collect D18 from the witness so

10 that I may turn it to the appropriate page -----

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think it is D19.

12 MR. KAY: D19. Perhaps you would like to look at the seventh and eighth

13 lines down, in fact, the second reference to Dusko Banovic on that

14 page?

15 MISS HOLLIS: I am sorry, what page are we on?

16 MR. KAY: Page 2 ---

17 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you.

18 MR. KAY: -- or page 3, second page of the statement.

19 (To the witness): Does it not say in there -- perhaps you can read out

20 that whole passage that deals with Omarska and Dusko Banovic? Can you

21 read it out?

22 A. I can say it aloud. However, I was told that that night when my

23 brother was in the white house Dusko Banovic and Zoran Zigic were

24 there.

25 Q. Yes, and please go on.

Page 3077

1 A. "They were beating the prisoners. Banovic and Zigic used to come to

2 Omarska. They did not belong to any regular guard".

3 Q. Thank you very much. So in that passage there you do refer to Dusko

4 Banovic going to Omarska camp?

5 A. I pointed out that I had been told that people were seen when they

6 would come and I saw Zigic with my own eyes.

7 Q. That was a statement that was signed by you in Germany for criminal

8 proceedings that were starting in that country? You made that

9 statement for the court, did you not?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. One other matter I would like to question you about in

12 relation to your time at Omarska, and that concerns your knowledge of

13 the days of the week and dates. Did you have any way of keeping track

14 of time?

15 A. When I arrived in Omarska camp, I arrived, I think it was the 8th, I

16 also believe it was a Monday. I was first in room 15. I was not

17 taken for interrogation, and it was only during the second week when

18 they took me for interrogation.

19 Q. Yes. You said that you think you arrived in Omarska on what you

20 believed was 8th June and you believed was a Monday. Did you have any

21 way of knowing that those were the dates at the time?

22 A. From the day of my arrival, since the first day, since first day in

23 the camp, I went first to Keraterm. I spent seven days in Keraterm and

24 then I was taken away to Omarska.

25 Q. But the question that I asked was did you have any way of knowing what

Page 3078

1 those days and dates were?

2 A. We could recognise all days and week and the exact date, well, some

3 perhaps knew them, some perhaps did not, but we knew which day of the

4 week, every day of the week.

5 Q. I understand you say that, so was it because others told you what day

6 of the week and what the date was?

7 A. No, I was taken for interrogation at 10 o'clock on Saturday morning.

8 I was interrogated until 12 o'clock because in Omarska inspectors

9 worked until noon, until 12 o'clock, on Saturdays and I was told that

10 we would go on on Monday.

11 Q. I understand you saying there that you were told that you would go on

12 Monday, was that for a second interview?

13 A. Yes. Monday was the second day of the interrogation.

14 Q. Were you told that it was Saturday that you were first interrogated?

15 A. No, they did not say it was Saturday. We knew, all of us in Omarska

16 knew, when inspectors came and when they went back, on which days they

17 work and on which they did not, and Saturday, on Saturdays, they only

18 worked until 12 o'clock, until noon.

19 Q. Excuse me just for a moment. In that statement that I just put before

20 you and before that passage concerning Dusko Banovic and Zoran Zigic,

21 so it will be on the second page, if you turn it over, you will see

22 that you were told that your brother had been beaten up and that you

23 said in 1994 that you saw the body of your brother on a Saturday, on

24 the meadow in the camp? Would you like to look at your statement on

25 the previous page and just to see that?

Page 3079

1 A. I see that, but it is not true.

2 Q. Perhaps you could read out that part so that we can check the language

3 as against what has been written down there?

4 A. I can read it out, but on 20th June I could not see Smajo Kahrimanovic

5 because I was interrogated on Monday, and that was the first time when

6 I moved from the pista to restaurant to sleep there. Do you want me

7 to read it?

8 Q. Just read out the passage that it says, "I then could see on Saturday

9 that the body of my brother was on the meadow in the camp".

10 A. "On Saturday, which was June 20th 1992, Smajo Kahrimanovic told me

11 that my brother, Dalija, had died from injuries he sustained in the

12 night between Friday and Saturday, and Saturday was the June 20th".

13 So he was in the interrogation house for two days or, rather, in the

14 glass house.

15 Q. You go on to say, do you not, that you could see on the Saturday the

16 body of your brother on the meadow in the camp; is that right?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Does it say that here? That is all I ask.

19 A. That is what it says here.

20 Q. You see, what I want to ask you about is this, whether dates and days

21 that you have been giving are, in fact, your own recollection or

22 because others have been speaking to you?

23 A. The days of the week I knew and I learned subsequently which dates

24 they were.

25 Q. Have you had conversations with other witnesses about events in

Page 3080

1 Omarska and the days or dates that things happened?

2 A. Probably, very likely.

3 Q. Can I take that that is really a "yes"?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Have those discussions been with other witnesses in this case whilst

6 you have been waiting for this trial to take place?

7 A. No.

8 Q. You have not been talking with other witnesses in the last few days

9 -----

10 A. With witnesses, I did talk to other witnesses. I was with witnesses,

11 but we did not discuss this because those witnesses were not there at

12 that place.

13 MR. KAY: That is all I ask. Thank you.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Miss Hollis, do you have redirect?

15 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour.

16 Re-examined by MISS HOLLIS

17 Q. Mr. Hrnic, when you arrived here, you were informed that by court

18 order you could not discuss this case with the witnesses or other

19 persons other than the Prosecution or at this trial; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. During these conversations that you had with other witnesses present

22 here to testify, did you ever talk with them about this case?

23 A. No.

24 Q. You have testified that your second interrogation occurred on a

25 Monday; is that correct?

Page 3081

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. That is your recollection of when that second interrogation occurred?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I believe you have also testified it was after this second

5 interrogation that you were moved on to the pista; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. After you moved on to the pista then you slept at night in the

8 restaurant; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Was it after you had been moved on to the pista that you were informed

11 of your brother's death?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Where were you when you were informed of your brother's death?

14 A. I was in the restaurant.

15 Q. Who was it who informed you of your brother's death?

16 A. Smajo Kahrimanovic.

17 Q. In response to an earlier Defence question when you were asked about a

18 prior statement and you were shown the Serbo-Croatian translation of

19 the German statement, I believe you indicated that you were told by

20 others that a Dusko Banovic had been in Omarska; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So you yourself never said that you had seen Dusko Banovic in

23 Omarska; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. While you were in any of the camps, either Trnopolje, Keraterm or

Page 3082

1 Omarska, did you know of a Dusko Banovic who was also referred to as

2 "Duca"?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Were you told this by other people?

5 A. Everybody called him "Duca" and I learnt later on that his name was

6 Dusko Banovic.

7 Q. So this person that was pointed out to you as Duca, you were later

8 told was Duca Banovic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you know Dusko Banovic?

11 A. Not before the war.

12 Q. Your knowledge of him was when people pointed him out as "Duca" and

13 then later told you he was Dusko Banovic?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. The man that you saw when you were on the pista, the man that you

16 identified in this courtroom as Dule Tadic, was that man the man who

17 had been pointed out to you as "Duca"?

18 A. No.

19 Q. You indicated earlier in response to another Defence question that you

20 could travel to Prijedor until 22nd May; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Then after 22nd May it was your understanding that Muslims could not

23 travel from Kozarac to Prijedor; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You indicated also that when you would be at the checkpoint at

Page 3083

1 Rajkovici that you would wear a camouflage hat; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. But that the hat was not a beret, is that also correct?

4 A. It was not a real beret. They were caps that went along the clothes

5 and it was also a camouflage colour, green, blue. It was

6 multi-coloured like the clothes.

7 Q. Mr. Hrnic, the day you were on the pista in Omarska camp and saw the

8 man you have identified as Dule Tadic, is there any doubt in your mind

9 that the man you recognised on that date is the Dule Tadic you have

10 pointed to in this courtroom?

11 A. There is no doubt.

12 MISS HOLLIS: No further questions.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?

14 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour. Whilst I am just dealing with the

15 identification matter, perhaps the statement could be taken from the

16 witness and handed back to Mr. Wladimiroff who will do some research

17 for me?

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes.

19 MR. KAY: Thank you.

20 Further cross-examined by MR. KAY

21 Q. Mr. Hrnic, I have just a few more questions to deal with the occasion

22 on which you say you saw Dusko Tadic on the camp at Omarska. At that

23 time you were lying down on the pista; is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was this in the month of June?

Page 3084

1 A. It would have been June or July, early July.

2 Q. At the time you were on the pista you were there with a large number

3 of other prisoners; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. As you told the court yesterday, you were packed like sardines?

6 A. I was explaining we were lying next to each other in rows.

7 Q. There were a lot of people out there on the pista?

8 A. Yes, quite a lot.

9 Q. In fact, the pista was full of detainees?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You were over there towards the hangar, as you have indicated to the

12 court?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In answer to questions from counsel for the Prosecution, you told this

15 court you did not have an unobstructed view?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. But, in fact, there were many other people lying down on the pista

18 between you and the man you say was Dusko Tadic?

19 A. There were people, people were lying down on the pista, everybody was

20 lying down.

21 Q. Yes, and a large number of people were between you and the man you say

22 was Dusko Tadic?

23 A. Lying down.

24 Q. Yes. Was everyone lying down at that time?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3085

1 Q. Between you and that man there were a large number of other people?

2 A. Yes, who were lying down.

3 Q. The circumstances of your view was that you looked under your arm

4 whilst your face was on the ground?

5 A. I was down, my face was turned towards the white house, in the

6 direction of the white house, so that I could see Dule.

7 Q. If you were facing the white house, the position of the man you said

8 was Mr. Tadic must have been at the end of your vision, on the side of

9 your vision; you were not staring at him directly?

10 A. I could see when I was down, I could see both the entrance into the

11 building, who they were taking in, and also I could see the beating

12 through the window. I could see how they were beaten.

13 Q. But Mr. Tadic, you say, the man who was Tadic, was not by the white

14 house; he was in another position altogether. He was down nearer the

15 administration building?

16 A. Yes. I have just told you when I would be lying down I could see whom

17 they would be taking into the administrative building, and even I

18 could look at the window, the one that you see on the model here, and

19 the staircase. When we lied down, we would look under the arm or,

20 perhaps, turn slightly, but lying like this, our head was always

21 sideways so that you could see very many things; who was taken for

22 interrogation, who was taken out.

23 Q. So would it be the case then that your arms were not by the side of

24 your body, but positioned above your shoulders and that is how you

25 come to look underneath your arm?

Page 3086

1 A. I did not say that I looked at Dule underneath my arm. I was like

2 this. I was supporting myself like this and I was looking to the

3 side.

4 Q. What you said this morning was that you were on the pista mostly in a

5 prone position, you would turn around and look under your arms and you

6 can see what is happening when you look under your arms. That is what

7 you told us earlier this morning.

8 A. I do not think so. That is what I said now. I do not really

9 remember, but I think I have just said it.

10 Q. You said you were lying down on your stomach, you were looking towards

11 the hangar, it was to the right, and you were looking at the glass of

12 the white house.

13 A. No, I did not say that.

14 Q. I am just reading out what you said earlier today.

15 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, again I believe there may be some confusion.

16 There was a question about how this witness could see people being

17 kicked or pushed down the stairs from the administration building if

18 he was on the pista. He indicated that he would be in a position

19 where he could sometimes look under his arms and see that window above

20 A21, and that sometimes he would be in a seated position and could see

21 that window above A21.

22 I believe, however, that in response to my question he indicated

23 that his face was turned to the right in the direction of the white

24 house. I do not believe he specifically indicated in that portion of

25 his testimony that he looked under his arm. If this is going to be a

Page 3087

1 significant issue, I would ask that that portion of the transcript be

2 provided so that the witness is not confused.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, the transcript, of course, will show that.

4 There have been so many questions about this first by Miss Hollis,

5 then by you and then by Miss Hollis again and by you again, I think it

6 is about time for it to come to an end really.

7 MR. KAY: Yes, I just wanted to deal with one other matter as I was going

8 through what the witness said in answer to the questions of direct

9 examination.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Go ahead.

11 MR. KAY: What you told counsel for the Prosecution was that no-one was

12 blocking your view of Dusko Tadic as you were lying on the ground.

13 That is not right, is it?

14 A. That is right.

15 Q. What I suggest to you is that in those circumstances you did not see

16 Dusko Tadic at all.

17 A. I do not know -- were you there or was I there?

18 MR. KAY: Thank you. I have no further questions. There is one other

19 matter, your Honour, and it is because we have not had an extra copy.

20 I would like you to look at this document, please, again -----

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is that Defence 19?

22 MR. KAY: That is D19, your Honour. You will see a passage in there

23 dealing with your stay in Keraterm camp, can you see that. It is

24 marked with pencil in brackets, can you see that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3088

1 Q. You say in that statement, perhaps you can read it out, that passage,

2 yourself?

3 A. "During my stay in the camp at Keraterm, only men were brought to the

4 camp, Muslims and Croats. Serbs soldiers gave us no food whatsoever,

5 but our wives were allowed to bring us food which we then shared

6 amongst ourselves. One could hear soldiers armed with automatic

7 rifles. During the stay in the camp we were exposed to beatings. I

8 know by name only Zoran Zigic and Dusko Banovic". Do you want me to

9 continue?

10 Q. No, just stop there. You said that you knew Dusko Banovic by name?

11 A. In the camp I knew only Zigic and Duca and I subsequently learned

12 their names.

13 MR. KAY: Thank you. I have no further questions, your Honour.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis?

15 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour.

16 Further re-examined by MISS HOLLIS

17 Q. Mr. Hrnic, it is your testimony that in the camp these two individuals

18 were pointed out to you as Zigic and Duca?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Subsequent to the camps, you were told that these individuals were

21 Zoran Zigic and Dusko Banovic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Sir, at the time of giving this statement to the German investigators

24 you had been told that these two men had those names; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3089

1 Q. Sir, when you were on the pista and saw Dule Tadic, you indicated

2 momentarily for the court the position that you were in. Would you

3 please tell us at that time with your head facing to the right, did

4 you have your head placed on your hands or were you looking under your

5 shoulder?

6 A. I think it was resting on my hands like this, that I was lying like

7 this.

8 Q. These other detainees who were lying on the pista in a prone position,

9 did these other detainees block your view of Dule Tadic?

10 A. No.

11 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?

13 MR. KAY: Nothing arises, your Honour, thank you.

14 Examined by the Court

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Just one question, Mr. Hrnic, regarding Mr. Banovic:

16 you testified that a gentleman who you were told to be Duca Banovic

17 was pointed out to you while you were at Omarska; is that correct?

18 A. No.

19 Q. So you did not see a Duca Banovic at Omarska?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Have you ever seen Duca Banovic?

22 A. I saw Duca in Keraterm.

23 Q. How many times did you see Duca at Keraterm?

24 A. Almost daily, sometimes even several times a day.

25 Q. As I understand your testimony, you did not know him before the war;

Page 3090

1 is that correct?

2 A. No, I did not.

3 Q. What did Mr. Banovic look like?

4 A. He was very, very short, I do not know how, and he was very stolid,

5 very sturdily built. He always wore a uniform. He was very well

6 built. But he was not very tall, but he was of a normal height, a

7 sort of wide-ish sort of person, that is, he was very sturdy.

8 Q. Did he have a beard?

9 A. I do not remember.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, do you have additional questions in the

11 light of my questions?

12 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour.

13 Further re-examined by MISS HOLLIS

14 Q. Mr. Hrnic, when you saw this man who was called Duca, did this man

15 remind you of Dule Tadic or in your mind look like Dule Tadic?

16 A. Dule was a big man but Duca was bigger.

17 Q. Did you ever mistake Duca for Dule Tadic when you saw Duca in

18 Keraterm?

19 A. That was not possible. Duca came daily to beat us down there.

20 Q. In your mind, were you clearly able to distinguish between the

21 appearance of Duca and Dule Tadic?

22 A. Yes.

23 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, do you have additional questions in the

25 light of -----

Page 3091

1 MR. KAY: No further questions, your Honour.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. We will stand in recess for 20 minutes,

3 please. If we are finished with Mr. Hrnic, is there any objection to

4 Mr. Hrnic being permanently excused? No objection? Mr. Hrnic, you

5 are permanently excused. You may leave. Thank you for coming.

6 (The witness withdrew)

7 (11.30 a.m.)

8 (The court adjourned for a short time)

9 (11.50 a.m.)

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, would you call your next witness?

11 MISS HOLLIS: Prior to that, your Honour, I had mentioned earlier that we

12 were going to attempt to have a photograph made of the positions on

13 the pista as marked by Mr. Hrnic. To my great amazement, it is

14 possible. It has been done and we have a photograph. I have provided

15 a copy of that to the Defence. I would ask that this be marked as the

16 Prosecution exhibit next in line.

17 It is a photograph showing the pista area with two yellow tabs, one

18 with the letter "W" indicated by the witness to be where he was when

19 he saw Dule Tadic, and with a yellow tab with the letter "T"

20 indicating where the witness placed Dule Tadic at the time he saw him.

21 Of course, for the court's orientation, I would note that the witness

22 said he was close to the hangar building, and then the building to the

23 other side of the pista would be the administration/restaurant

24 building. I would offer this as the Prosecution exhibit next in line.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That should be 234. Any objection to 234?

Page 3092

1 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. It will be admitted.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?

4 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I call Sulejman Besic.

5 MR. SULEJMAN BESIC, called.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Besic, would you take the oath there in front of

7 you?

8 THE WITNESS [In Translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak the

9 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

10 (The witness was sworn)

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you, sir. You may be seated.

12 Examined by MR. NIEMANN

13 Q. Is your full name Sulejman Besic?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What is your date of birth?

16 A. 25th April 1950.

17 Q. Where were you born, Mr. Besic?

18 A. I was born in Kozarac, village of Brdjani.

19 Q. Approximately how far is the village of Brdjani from the centre of

20 Kozarac itself?

21 A. Exactly three kilometres.

22 Q. Did you live there all of your life up until 1992?

23 A. I lived there all of my life up until 1992.

24 Q. Where did you attend your schooling?

25 A. In Kozarac.

Page 3093

1 Q. Did you do eight years of school in Kozarac?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Then did you work for a period of time, approximately 10 years, as a

4 lumberjack in the Kozarac area?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. When did you do your military service?

7 A. I went into army in 1969 and I came back in 1970.

8 Q. Where did you do your military service?

9 A. In Serbia, in the city of Nis.

10 Q. When you were doing your military service were you particularly

11 trained in heavy artillery and in cannons?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What is your nationality?

14 A. Muslim Bosnian.

15 Q. Do you recall when the war in Croatia commenced in the early part of

16 1991, I should say in 1991?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. I think this was around about the middle of 1991, was it?

19 A. I think so, yes.

20 Q. Were you still working at that stage?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. As a chainsaw mechanic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Where were you working?

25 A. I worked in a lumber firm called Bosanska Dubica.

Page 3094

1 Q. Did this firm have branches and offices and working places at various

2 locations throughout the opstina of Prijedor?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you work in a number of places throughout opstina Prijedor?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. But at all stages your home was in Kozarac?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. When the war with Croatia commenced was there a call-up of people to

9 join the army and go to the war in Croatia?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did all members of the community respond to this draft?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Was there any particular section or segment of the community that did

14 not respond to the draft that you knew of?

15 A. One section, a smaller section, responded positively but most of the

16 people did not.

17 Q. Did anything subsequently happen to the people who failed to respond

18 to the draft?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What occurred to people who did not respond to the draft?

21 A. They were mostly, they mostly lost their jobs.

22 Q. Did you yourself observe people in particular losing jobs in the

23 employment in which you were engaged?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Can you tell us the circumstances of how you came to see that happen

Page 3095

1 and in respect of whom did it happen?

2 A. In my company where I worked there were not a lot of bosses that were

3 Muslims, there was just one that was Muslim, and he worked at

4 assigning people to various tasks, and he was basically a head of that

5 department; and at one point all of the old bosses that I knew when

6 the war in Croatia started, they went somewhere, and then some new

7 ones that I did not know came, but one of them I did know from before

8 and his name was Gavran Bogdan and he said, "I am a new director and I

9 will explain you some things that you have to know. You know that

10 the war in Croatia started and it is our duty to protect Yugoslavia;

11 you have to respond positively to the draft, all of you, and this is

12 your duty. I also have a certificate that I got from a General", I

13 forgot his name, and he showed us this certificate. There were about

14 50 of us in that room where we had a meeting with him, and there was a

15 big seal there and he read that everybody who fails to respond to the

16 draft will be fired.

17 Q. When you say "a big seal", was that the seal of the JNA, was it?

18 A. Yes. Yes, JNA, Yugoslav National Army, and underneath there there was

19 a signature, I do not know who signed it, but it was signed by a

20 General.

21 Q. Did this then subsequently happen, that people who had failed to

22 respond to the draft were fired?

23 A. Yes, it happened to my boss who is the head of that department. He

24 was fired after eight days and he never came back.

25 Q. The people that were fired, were they then replaced by Serbs, were

Page 3096

1 they?

2 A. Yes, new bosses came and then the simple workers, they felt, started

3 feeling fear, and there were about half and half of us, half Muslims

4 and half Serbs and Serbs started separating into separate groups in

5 the canteen where we were eating or everywhere else. They did not

6 really want to contact, to have any contact, with us. They were

7 running away from us, and we, sort of, felt some kind of a fear. We

8 watched on TV what was happening in Croatia. They were cursing

9 Croatian President and so on.

10 Q. In May 1992, you were still working in this company yourself?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. I do not think that you had been drafted into the army; that was

13 because of your age, was it?

14 A. I think that is the reason. One year before that, prior to that, I

15 gave back my military uniform which I kept for 18 years.

16 Q. In May were you working at a location the other side of the city of

17 Prijedor?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you travel to that place to work from Kozarac?

20 A. Yes, that was in May. I have to add that I before May 1st went to

21 work and something happened. We would always go back from Bosanska

22 Dubica every Friday, come back home, and on Monday we would go there,

23 but something happened. We were in the forest. We were not informed,

24 we were not informed that they did not allow us to go back home that

25 Friday. Our boss told us that something was happening. The roads

Page 3097

1 were closed and we had no opportunity to go back home.

2 Around May 15th, they provided us with a transportation and we went

3 from the place where we worked, we came to the road between Bosanska

4 Dubica and Prijedor, and then I saw some military people there, who

5 said machine guns from the left and to the right of the road; and they

6 wanted us, to see our ID documents, and they were taking Muslims out

7 and talk to them and then we could come back.

8 So we had about three or four check points before, on the road to

9 Prijedor; and when we came to Prijedor at one intersection, an

10 intersection Prijedor/Kozarac, I saw many soldiers. I saw dust bags,

11 I saw machine guns, and while the soldiers were checking us out at the

12 intersection, I saw that they are speaking with a different dialect

13 and they actually are not Bosnian soldiers.

14 Q. Were you able to determine the nationality of the soldiers from

15 listening to them?

16 A. Yes, yes, I recognised the dialect. Those were Serbs but Serbs from

17 Serbia because they were using the term "bre".

18 Q. Yes. You said in your previous answer, at least it has been

19 translated here, you say the soldiers that you saw at the intersection

20 at Prijedor and Kozarac had "sawdust bags and machine guns".

21 THE INTERPRETER: "Sand dust", "sand dust bags".

22 Q. Sand dust bags, is it?

23 A. Yes, with sand, with sand, filled with sand.

24 Q. You mean sand bags?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3098

1 Q. Did the Serbian soldiers that you saw appear to be regular JNA

2 soldiers?

3 A. No, they were not shaven, they were quite dirty. The uniforms that

4 they had were quite dirty and they looked terrible.

5 Q. Did they have any distinguishing markings on them that you noticed,

6 insignia of any sort?

7 A. Yes, I noticed various insignia. I mostly noticed one person who was

8 taking us out and checking our ID documents. He had some kind of sign

9 on his sleeve. It looked like a bird, like an eagle. That is what I

10 noticed on one soldier; and also I noticed insignia on their heads and

11 those were kokardas which I had seen in the previous war.

12 Q. As you got closer to Kozarac, did you encounter another checkpoint?

13 A. In the village of Orlovci that was between Kozarac and about eight

14 kilometres from Kozarac, maybe seven kilometres, there was a village

15 of Orlovci, and that was the last checkpoint manned by Serbian

16 soldiers. We were not made to show our IDs there, and when I came to

17 Kozarac, there at the turning point for Kozarac, there was a regular

18 police there in blue uniforms that were patrolling left and right from

19 that point.

20 Q. Did you recognise these police patrolling in Kozarac itself?

21 A. I recognised a few of them. I do not really know what their names

22 were, but I knew them from before, from passing by.

23 Q. I see. Were you then subsequently told by a member of the Muslim

24 police what the situation was with respect to the situation in Kozarac

25 with the police?

Page 3099

1 A. Yes. One day, I think that was eight days before the war started, a

2 guy came. His name was Mevludin. I did not -- I had not seen him

3 prior to that. A young man, very young. He came to a house in my

4 village of Brdjani and that was a youth hall where the young people

5 got together, and several young people, several people got there but

6 not many people, and I came and we came inside. There were about 30

7 of us there, in there, and the man was explaining the things that were

8 happening around Kozarac.

9 He said the following. The Serbs are, the Serbs really played a

10 trick on us in Prijedor and their leadership. We had an agreement

11 that we have a mixed army, a mixed police, and we believed them. We

12 sat down with them and we had a dinner with them, and in the morning

13 when we got up we saw that the whole town of Prijedor was filled with

14 army. All of the Muslim policemen in Prijedor were disarmed and

15 expelled from Kozarac.

16 However, Mevludin later warned us: "Listen, people, we have to talk

17 to Serbs. We have to find a way to make them leave us alone. If you

18 have any weapons, surrender them. Do not be afraid. Nothing will

19 happen to Muslims if they surrender their arms". Some people who had

20 their arms or pistols, they promised they would go home and give them

21 up. Then this is where we split. We left that meeting and I have

22 never seen that man again.

23 Q. The next morning was there a radio announcement with respect to the

24 surrendering of arms?

25 A. Yes. Over the radio in Prijedor -- but at that time it was not called

Page 3100

1 Radio Prijedor, it was called Serbian Radio Prijedor, because Serbs

2 had entered Prijedor already -- they were informing us and they were

3 saying that some villages around Prijedor had surrendered

4 all of their arms already. They have said that in Kozarac there

5 were 700 weapons, rifles, that were not surrendered. They issued an

6 ultimatum to bring those weapons to the Local Commune and discard it

7 there.

8 Q. To your knowledge, was there at this time a Territorial Defence group

9 forming in the Kozarac area?

10 A. Yes. TO existed from before, but that it was within the regular JNA,

11 and they had their uniforms, but they had very few weapons.

12 Q. Do you know approximately how many people were involved in this

13 defence group that were forming?

14 A. Approximately, I am not sure, but I know that -- I know that there was

15 not more than 20, at least that is what I could see.

16 Q. Did this group have any weapons?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What sorts of weapons did they have?

19 A. They had M48 -- those are old rifles -- and I saw some, actually one

20 machine gun, an old one.

21 Q. Did they have any artillery or cannons?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Or any tanks or heavy armaments?

24 A. No, no, no.

25 Q. During this period of time was there a change in the television

Page 3101

1 reception that you could receive in Kozarac?

2 A. Yes, all of a sudden TV programme from Sarajevo disappeared, and we

3 had to watch TV, Belgrade TV, and we could not watch programmes from

4 Sarajevo any more. Then after several days there was also a TV from

5 Banja Luka broadcasting.

6 Q. Do you remember the content of the television transmissions that were

7 received once you could no longer receive Sarajevo?

8 A. Yes, I remember some officers on television, Banja Luka television,

9 who talked about Kozarac, who were congratulating each other about

10 taking Prijedor without shooting a single bullet, and the only

11 solution was to have people of Kozarac surrender their arms and then

12 nothing would happen to them.

13 Q. Did some of the people respond to this order to surrender their arms?

14 A. Yes, many people returned their arms. They took their weapons to the

15 Local Commune and left it there.

16 Q. What about yourself, did you have a weapon at this time?

17 A. No, I never had any kind of weapon.

18 Q. Did you and your family do anything to prepare yourself for war at

19 this particular time?

20 A. No, other people did. Several days prior to that they started making

21 some kind of shelters. They were digging holes in the basements. I

22 had a neighbour who had a large basement and we decided to hide there

23 if something should happen.

24 Q. When did the attack on Kozarac commence?

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Excuse me, Mr. Niemann, I can see from the witness

Page 3102

1 list that this witness will testify about counts 1 and 24 through 28,

2 but it appears that this line of testimony is starting to become

3 cumulative.

4 We heard from a number of policy witnesses, I am not sure how many,

5 I think 13, but my number may be incorrect, and they talked about the

6 same kinds of things. We now are moving into the individual counts

7 and we are starting to hear from each witness say the same things over

8 and over.

9 I understand that you are attempting to prove your case as

10 expeditiously as possible, but we really have heard enough, I think,

11 about this. We have just heard from so many witnesses. For example,

12 yesterday we suggested that we not see the film again, Exhibit 185

13 maybe or maybe it is 195. But what I am suggesting is that you move

14 more quickly through this line of testimony and get to what it is that

15 this witness has to offer that is different than the many witnesses

16 that we have heard. Can you do that or tell me why we should not move

17 more quickly?

18 MR. NIEMANN: I am here, your Honour, I am at 24th May 1992.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You are going to ask him then about the attack, you

20 are going to ask him if he recalls the attack, you are going to ask

21 him whether there was shelling, then you are going to ask him where he

22 was when the shelling took place, then you are going to ask him where

23 he went. I do not mean to be sarcastic, I really do not; it is just

24 that I suppose from your perspective it is hard for a Prosecutor to

25 know just how much should be offered. What I am suggesting is that we

Page 3103

1 listen very carefully to the testimony, take notes, review transcripts

2 and we have a pretty good grasp on it. I am telling you just my grasp

3 of some of the facts that I am sure that this witness will offer us

4 and my fellow Judges, perhaps, even have a better grasp of it.

5 So I am suggesting that in the interests of time that you do not

6 have each witness repeat this same litany of events that led up to it,

7 because we know pretty well. I mean, you are going to show him at some

8 point that plan of Prijedor, of Kozarac. You may ask him, well, I do

9 not know, but you understand my point? Move along. I am just

10 suggesting that it has become cumulative. This is the first I have

11 suggested it, and I just want you to keep that in mind.

12 MR. NIEMANN (To the witness): You were imprisoned in Trnpolje camp?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When were you imprisoned in Trnopolje camp?

15 A. May 27th.

16 Q. How did you get to Trnopolje camp?

17 A. Well, it happened like this. After the initial shelling on May 24th,

18 May 27th, it lasted from the 24th until the 27th incessantly day and

19 night. One could not stick a head outside. On May 27th, it stopped a

20 little bit around 8 o'clock in the morning and then we went out on a

21 hill and we looked around because my village is up there towards

22 Kozara, and I could see parts of Prijedor, Kozarac, surrounding

23 villages around Kozarac, they were all burning.

24 Q. Mr. Besic, if I could interrupt you. I think we will pick up when you

25 first arrived at Trnopolje camp, if you would not mind? Where were

Page 3104

1 you taken to when you first arrive at Trnopolje camp?

2 A. When I came first to Trnopolje camp I was taken to a room that was

3 located on the west side of the elementary school on the floor. I

4 was placed there with my wife and children.

5 Q. The camp at that stage consisted of a school building, did it, and

6 other surrounding buildings?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. There was an office to the camp as well, was there?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Was that actually in the school building area or was it a nearby

11 place?

12 A. In another place, further from school, it was a different room.

13 Q. Was it a different building altogether?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Where was it in relation to the school building itself?

16 A. The office was next to the road, road from Kozarac to Trnopolje

17 railway station, on the right side closer to the railway station, and

18 on the left side, if you went from Kozarac, and before there used to

19 be a store and next to the store there was a medical centre; and then

20 under the same roof there was an office of the military officers that

21 sat there.

22 Q. What happened in this building?

23 A. There was a room where military officers sat, and when the prisoner

24 was brought to them he had to tell them what they asked him.

25 Q. Did beatings take place in this room?

Page 3105

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was there a cinema building as well?

3 A. Yes, cinema building was connected to that one.

4 Q. During the time you were in Trnopolje what was this building used for?

5 A. Exclusively, that was the main centre for where women and children

6 from surrounding villages gathered, and it was used for women, for

7 children and for the elderly.

8 Q. Was the camp fenced in or was it an open camp with no fencing?

9 A. In the beginning it was open until women were transported away and

10 then later they put a wire around it.

11 Q. What was the type of wire that they put around it?

12 A. At first they put a wire that was sort of an iron wire and then on top

13 of that they put barbed wired.

14 Q. Were there any guards in Trnopolje camp?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. These guards were armed, were they?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What nationality were they?

19 A. Serbs.

20 Q. Do you know whether they were part of the JNA, the police or some

21 other organisation?

22 A. In the beginning those were reserve soldiers of the JNA.

23 Q. When you arrived at the camp were you given food?

24 A. Not for the first four days.

25 Q. Were you then given food?

Page 3106

1 A. Yes, they brought food just for the children. They brought food for

2 children and then another TV team came with them and they were

3 distributing some chocolates and crackers to the children and TV was

4 shooting that; and what was the most saddest thing, there were

5 soldiers behind and at the same time they were returning that back to

6 them.

7 Q. So you are saying that there were television journalists there. Do

8 you know where they came from, these journalists?

9 A. From Banja Luka direction.

10 Q. Do you know the nationality of the journalists?

11 A. Serbs. Those were Serbs.

12 Q. Are you saying that in front of the television journalists and TV,

13 candy was being handed out to the people and, particularly, the

14 children?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Then after the journalists left this was then collected and taken back

17 again?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was water available in the camp for people to drink?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Where did you have to go to get your water from?

22 A. We had to go across to a private house and go across the road and

23 around us were the guards that were sitting on the checkpoints, and

24 there was also a pump there which we had to use to pump the water and

25 then we would stay in line the whole day to be able to get some water.

Page 3107

1 Q. What about the sanitary conditions, the toilets and so forth, were

2 they adequate for the people that were kept there?

3 A. No, there were none.

4 Q. So what was done to provide toilets for the people?

5 A. There was a school and approximately two and a half to 3,000 people

6 could sleep at the school, and then the rest slept outside by the

7 walls and some people made nylon tents and then slept there. There

8 was just one toilet at school and nobody could go there at school

9 because it was all flooded with water, but they made the detainees to

10 dig out the holes in the ground and use that as toilets, as outside

11 toilets.

12 Q. Did disease start to spread in the camp?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you from time to time see people taken out of the camp?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you know what happened to these people when they were taken out of

17 the camp?

18 A. They were taken out and never returned.

19 Q. Who would take these people out of the camp?

20 A. They were mostly guards, guards from around there. They had names

21 written on a piece of paper and they called out people to be found

22 from inside, inside and taken out.

23 Q. Did this happen at night time or during the day?

24 A. It happened both during the day time and at night, but it was more

25 frequent at night.

Page 3108

1 Q. Did these people return to the rooms?

2 A. No.

3 Q. After you had been in the camp about 25 days, did you see an incident

4 with respect to one of the women that were in the camp?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you tell us what happened to this woman?

7 A. There was an outpatients surgery there and there was a doctor called

8 Idriz, he is a Muslim, but he had no medicines. There was another

9 doctor with him, I did not know him, and children, there were so many

10 children there and women. All these children fell ill. They were

11 taken sick; they were vomiting. A woman, she queued, she was standing

12 on the stairs, and she was waiting to enter the doctor's to help her,

13 to give her some medicine for her child, but as the woman stood there

14 on the stairs two Serbs soldiers on the road, on the other side of the

15 road behind the wire, were talking rather loudly and seemed to be

16 quarrelling. They were standing some 10 or 15 metres away from the

17 wire and all of a sudden a shot was heard. I looked up and I saw a

18 Serb soldier fall, he fell on his back, but the other soldier who

19 remained standing and held a rifle in the hand suddenly turned this

20 automatic rifle towards the inside, behind the wire, and started

21 shouting as if he was, as if he had gone mad, and started firing at

22 people who stood around there.

23 So that with my own eyes I saw how a woman who was holding her child

24 in her hand, he hit her in the stomach so that she fell down and

25 collapsed, but, fortunately, the child remained alive. There were

Page 3109

1 several more people wounded or who received wounds in their legs, in

2 their arms. Then Serb policemen arrived and they managed somehow to

3 overpower him. They tied him and took him away somewhere and they

4 picked up all those wounded and that woman and drove them away

5 somewhere. Then soldiers, that somebody had fired from inside the

6 camp and killed his fellow guard who had stood there with them. Then

7 major control of Serb soldiers who came in began. They searched the

8 buildings, climbed the tops of buildings to see whether anyone had

9 fired that shot from the inside.

10 Q. So there was some sort of an enquiry, was there, in relation to who

11 had fired the shot and killed this woman?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. The allegation was that someone in the camp had shot the soldier?

14 A. Well, the soldier who committed the murder told his superior Commander

15 that there was some sniper among men and women who were in the camp

16 and that that person had fired the shot from inside the camp.

17 Q. So far as you know was this soldier disciplined in any way?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Later that day after this incident where the woman was shot, were the

20 women and children and men over 60 years of age taken out of the camp?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Where were take taken?

23 A. The Camp Commander came and said that all women, children and old

24 people over 60 had to leave the camp as a disease had appeared and

25 that they would go towards Banja Luka, that there they would be

Page 3110

1 accommodated in hotels and be given help. Women agreed to that and

2 the columns started off towards the railway station which was some 300

3 to 400 metres away from the camp. So they were all loaded on to the

4 carriages. It was a train, it was a train intended for cattle. So

5 women and children were loaded on to that train and taken towards

6 Banja Luka.

7 Q. Were you subsequently told where these women were taken to?

8 A. No.

9 Q. While you were at the camp could you hear shooting occurring from time

10 to time?

11 A. Not from time to time; all the time. Fire never stopped around the

12 camp.

13 Q. The people who were firing these bullets, do you know what they were

14 shooting at?

15 A. They were shooting for fun. We were inside and it was like music to

16 them and they could not do without it. They were firing shots all

17 around, around the building, at the buildings, wires, electric wires,

18 and all sorts of things that were around.

19 Q. You mentioned earlier that people were taken out of the camp from time

20 to time and who never returned. These people that were taken out, did

21 they fall into any particular groups?

22 A. Yes, first the men with some education were taken, so, for instance,

23 managers, professors, doctors or perhaps engineers, they would be

24 called out, and then after them lower ranking people were taken out.

25 Q. When they were taken out do you know where they were taken?

Page 3111

1 A. No.

2 Q. Do you know what happened to them?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did you ever see them again after they were taken out, the people that

5 fell into these groups?

6 A. No.

7 Q. What was the nationality or ethnic group of these people that were

8 taken out?

9 A. Muslims mostly and some Croats.

10 Q. Did you know a Professor Ante, A-N-T-E?

11 A. No. I met Professor Ante in my room when he arrived with his son. I

12 heard people asking where he had come from and he said that he was

13 from Ljubija, from the mine, that he was a Croat, but I did not really

14 get it quite well where he used to work.

15 Q. Do you remember an incident in relation to this man?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What happened to him?

18 A. The Professor was a man of a rather advanced age, I think he was

19 retired also, and he had his son with him of some 25 years of age. A

20 soldier came, whom I had never seen in my life before, and stood in

21 the doorway and asked about some Ante Professor. Then he, this one,

22 stood up and said, "Here I am". The soldier laughed and came in and

23 then said: "Well, how are you, Professor?" and the Professor was

24 silent. The soldier then said: "Professor, do you remember me?" The

25 Professor said: "Perhaps." "How don't you? I was a pupil of yours?

Page 3112

1 Don't you remember all those bad marks you gave me?" The Professor

2 replied: "Well, I gave you the marks which you deserved, sir." The

3 soldier laughed again and said, "Well, you see, Professor, had those

4 marks been better your life would have lasted longer, but as it is you

5 have to come with me." So the Professor got up and went out and a

6 minute later while he took him out into that corridor he returned and

7 then called out the Professor's son, I cannot remember his name. The

8 younger man stood up and was about to fetch his coat, but the soldier

9 said: "No, you won't need this." So they both went out and I never

10 saw them again.

11 Q. Apart from the room you were in or stayed in in the camp, were you

12 able to move around the camp outside the camp?

13 A. No, not outside the camp. Within those wires after 8 o'clock every

14 day until 7 o'clock in the evening, that was summer time, we could

15 move within those wires.

16 Q. So you were able to associate with other prisoners kept in the camp,

17 that is within the wire boundary of the camp, but what you say is you

18 could not go beyond that, is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Shortly after this incident with the Professor, do you recall that

21 lists of names were taken up of the prisoners in the camp?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Who took up the lists of names?

24 A. There were three women who were from the Serbian Red Cross who

25 compiled the list of all those who were in the camp. We all had to go

Page 3113

1 to them and give our name and surname, and were threatened that we

2 would be shot if we did not do that. So that we all queued up and the

3 list was ready in about three or four days time.

4 Q. When the list of all the prisoners had been completed, what then

5 started to happen in the camp?

6 A. After this census they began to come again to take out from the camp

7 by name and surname every day, every night, 10, 15, 20, people were

8 taken away in an unknown direction.

9 Q. When you say, "they" who do you mean by "they" came and took them

10 away?

11 A. Soldiers, Serb soldiers who came through various parts, who were not

12 guards. All of a sudden out of the blue a group of soldiers would

13 turn up with a list and the guards led them in and they moved amongst

14 the soldiers, would find those persons, would take them into custody,

15 tie them and take them out.

16 Q. Did some of these people that were taken out whose name was called

17 from the list, did they return?

18 A. Not to Trnopolje camp.

19 Q. Did any of the people in your group that were taken out when they were

20 called out on these lists, did you ever see any of those people come

21 back into your room?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Do you remember a person called Eno Besic?

24 A. Ener?

25 Q. E-N-O, Eno Besic?

Page 3114

1 A. Eno Besic, yes.

2 Q. Do you know what happened to him?

3 A. I do. Eno Besic was in the camp with me, and one day Serb soldiers

4 came to the door and called out his name and told him, "Come with us",

5 and Eno went out of the camp. He went away and then one night, then a

6 day and then another night and Eno was back. He had been to

7 interrogation. Eno could barely walk. When we came up to him he was

8 in a room. He could not breathe. All he said was, "A little bit of

9 water". We did have some water and so we gave it to him, unbuttoned

10 him, and we saw that on his chest they had made a cross and likewise

11 on his back. The pain was excruciating. The man could not sleep all

12 night. He cried. It was very hot. There were flies all around. It

13 was filthy in there. Then a day or two later the man was still

14 moaning and crying and people were trying to move away from him, and

15 when we looked on his back where they had cut this with a knife there

16 were worms, worms, live worms wriggling around, and we tried to take

17 them out with the water and something, but the stench was so horrible

18 that one could not come near him.

19 Q. Were you interrogated yourself when you were in Trnopolje camp?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What happened to you when you were interrogated?

22 A. One day soldiers came and called out my name. So I came, I went with

23 them. I came into the office where the camp Commander was sitting.

24 His name was Slobodan Kuruzovic. I entered and I stood before him.

25 He told me: "Turn your chair". I turned the chair the other way

Page 3115

1 round, not as one should sit, and he was standing in front of me. I

2 was holding on the chair with my hands. Behind my back was a soldier

3 and Slobodan Kuruzovic questioned me and said: "Now tell me how many

4 Serb soldiers have you killed? Have you been to war? Very slowly,

5 very nicely, the better you tell us the easier it will be for you.

6 Where did you leave your weapons?" I repeated that I had not been to

7 war, that I had no weapons, and he laughed at me. "They all say

8 that", he said, "You are all alike". All of a sudden I felt a strong

9 blow on my back, so that across the chair I began to fall, but later a

10 soldier straightened me up and told me: "Speak up", but this blow was

11 so hard, I think it was something metal, I think it was a kind of a

12 stick with a ball or something, it was so heavy that I could not

13 breathe, I could not recover. Later a man entered through the door

14 and said: "Stop it". When I looked up I saw my boss, the boss from

15 the company where I had to work. His name was Slobodan Milunovic. He

16 said: "Stop it, I know him. He is my worker. He had no rifle and I

17 guarantee that he had not participated in the fighting," and then

18 Kuruzovic said: "All right, if you are vouching for him, then I will

19 let him go," and the soldier who was behind my back said: "You can

20 go."

21 So I walked out of the room, straight through it. To the right in

22 the corridor was a room that was a battery room. There were no

23 windows there, only a metal door. There two soldiers met me. They

24 put me against the wall and they were pushing me with their rifle butt

25 to indicate where I was to go. "No, you don't go there, you are

Page 3116

1 coming here to talk to us." I entered that room and that was

2 terrible. The walls were all bloody. The ceiling, there was blood on

3 ceiling even, the floor was bloody. At a certain point in time I

4 fainted. Then I regained my conscious and then two soldiers came in

5 and a little while later two more came. They stared at me and one of

6 them said: "Now you come with us and you will find the rifle where you

7 have hidden it, gold and money and then we shall let you go and you

8 have solved all your problems." I said: "I have no gold. I have no

9 money. I have never had a rifle." Another soldier approached and

10 said: "Look at the wall." I looked at the wall. "Do you see the

11 picture on the wall?" There was no picture on that wall, so I said,

12 "No, there is no picture on this wall", and he repeated: "Don't you

13 see a picture on this wall?" "No." Then I was hit again.

14 Q. Were you being beaten all of this time or some of the time as this was

15 going on?

16 A. No, they did not beat me during the interrogation.

17 Q. After the interrogation when you were put in this room were you

18 beaten?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you know who it was that were beating you?

21 A. I had never seen them ----

22 Q. Do you know the nationality ----

23 A. --- until that time.

24 Q. Do you know the nationality of the people that were beating you?

25 A. They were Serbs soldiers.

Page 3117

1 Q. The gentleman that saved you from being beaten when you were with the

2 Camp Commander, Slobodan Milunovic, how was he dressed at the time?

3 A. He was in an army officer uniform. He had his ranks with some three

4 stars and around that was a yellow band. I think it was the rank of

5 the JNA, of a JNA Major, and that is how the soldiers addressed him,

6 Comrade Major.

7 Q. What about Kuruzovic, how was he dressed, the Camp Commander?

8 A. Kuruzovic was Camp Commander and this one was another one. This one

9 was Milunovic. He was not an army officer; he was a plain soldier. I

10 did not see any rank insignia on him.

11 Q. So just to clarify that, are you saying that Kuruzovic was the one you

12 described as the JNA Major?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did the person that was formerly your boss, Slobodan Milunovic, did he

15 seem to be in a superior position to the Camp Commander Kuruzovic from

16 what you were able to observe?

17 A. No, no.

18 Q. When you were taken into the other room that you called the battery,

19 did anyone threaten you with a knife or put a knife near you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What happened? Can you describe how that happened to you?

22 A. When I fell down, when the first soldier hit me, then he put his

23 bayonet here, I still have the scar, and turned it round.

24 Q. Were you also hit in the mouth when you were there in that room?

25 A. Yes. I took a blow on the mouth, a very heavy one, with a rifle, with

Page 3118

1 a butt, and then I did not know anything else.

2 Q. This is when you lost consciousness?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When you woke up did you notice that you had teeth missing?

5 A. Yes. Yes, I found two teeth in my mouth and another one had fallen

6 out. My jaw was broken.

7 Q. I think when you said that they put the bayonet to your head you

8 pointed towards your temple, did you, at the same time when the

9 soldiers put the bayonet up to your head?

10 A. Yes. Yes.

11 Q. Where did you wake up after this beating, after you had lost

12 consciousness?

13 A. In the same room I felt somebody shaking me and I looked up and the

14 same man in an army uniform, he was calling out my name. That man was

15 very familiar to me. We used to work in the same company. I have

16 forgotten his surname but his first name was Djuro.

17 Q. What did he do with you when he woke you up?

18 A. He helped me stand up. He took me out and tried to enter my room with

19 me, but as all the prisoners were already there he could not because

20 the staircase and rooms were all full of people, crammed with people

21 lying all around, so he took me back.

22 Q. Where did he take you to then?

23 A. He took me to a corner of a building where the roof extended over the

24 building and he said: "This will protect you from the rain", and found

25 a piece of rag and wiped the blood off my face and then he left me.

Page 3119

1 He had to go quickly to leave the wire compound quickly.

2 Q. Do you know who the deputy of the camp was, the deputy commander of

3 the camp?

4 A. As far as I can recall, he was a captain by rank and his name was

5 Branko Topola. At the time he was Deputy Camp Commander.

6 Q. How did he act towards the prisoners in the camp?

7 A. At the outset very nice, very kind. He sort of sympathised with

8 people. He said: "Well, I am not a pure Serb. My mother is Muslim.

9 My father is a Serb, but they forced me to be here with you and to

10 guard you", and so on.

11 Q. Did the Camp Commander ever address the prisoners in the camp and

12 explain who he was and where he had come from?

13 A. Once we were told all to line up. He gave us his name. He told us

14 his name was Slobodan Milunovic, and as far as I can remember he said

15 that he used to work in Sanski Most as a professor, a teacher in a

16 school.

17 Q. On that particular day did he say what was going to happen to the

18 people in the camp?

19 A. Yes, he explained and warned us that all, to all prisoners: "Here are

20 my soldiers amongst you, and in case one of my soldiers is missing or

21 is killed by you, you will all be shot."

22 Q. What happened after this? What did he say to you after this, do you

23 remember?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did he say anything about people then being able to leave the camp?

Page 3120

1 A. Yes, after that he let us go and the next day he had us lined up again

2 and said: "The convoy arrives tomorrow. I shall set you free, but

3 only those across the road, across the main Banja Luka/Prijedor road

4 who live on the right-hand side of the road, those who have remained

5 without their houses and who have documents enabling them to go to

6 third countries."

7 Q. Did buses and transport then subsequently begin to arrive at the camp?

8 A. Yes. The next day, as far as I can remember, three or four buses

9 arrived and two trailer trucks with tarpaulin and people were ordered

10 to board them.

11 Q. What about yourself, did you board the bus?

12 A. No.

13 Q. What did you decide to do?

14 A. I had no chance. There was no way I could board this bus. I had my

15 brother with me and we were looking at what was going on. People were

16 practically losing their lives scrambling for a place on those buses.

17 The buses were crammed and then all the rest were returned.

18 Q. On the day that these buses were there, did you see soldiers in

19 uniforms different to that which you had seen before?

20 A. Yes, that was the first time when I saw some soldiers in black

21 uniforms, and they had APCs with big machine guns and they were

22 standing by the sides of buses and trucks, and they were soldiers and

23 we have been told they had arrived from the direction of Banja Luka.

24 Q. Did these soldiers then proceed to escort the buses as they left the

25 area?

Page 3121

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. NIEMANN: Is that a convenient time, your Honour?

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess until 2.30.

4 (1.00 p.m.)

5 (Luncheon Adjournment).

6

7 (2.30 p.m.)

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, would you continue, please?

9 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Besic, before the adjournment for lunch today, you were

10 telling us about an address that you were being given by the camp

11 Commander, Kuruzovic, do you remember that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you know what ethnic group he was, what nationality he was?

14 A. Serb.

15 Q. I think that you said that buses later came and people were taken

16 away in the buses and you were describing how you saw soldiers in

17 unusual uniforms that you had never seen before, do you remember that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you later hear something on the radio about what had happened to

20 those buses?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What did you hear?

23 A. We heard that the buses were stopped at the Vlasic Mountain, and that

24 all the detainees that were in the bus were shot.

25 Q. After hearing this the next day or some period after that, did

Page 3122

1 Kuruzovic then call you out again?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did he then speak to the assembled prisoners once more?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What did he say?

6 A. He lined up the prisoners, and said, "Maybe some of you heard about

7 the incident that was announced over Croatian radio, and that incident

8 that was announced over the Croatian radio is not true. It is true

9 that the prisoners, detainees, were released at the territory held by

10 Muslim army, Muslim government. About 20 of them were killed by the

11 Muslims who were shooting".

12 Q. When you say "the incident over Croatian radio", are you talking

13 about the killing of people on the Vlasic Mountain?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. After this period of time did the Red Cross then come to the camp,

16 the International Red Cross?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What happened when the international Red Cross arrived at the camp?

19 A. The International Red Cross arrived to the camp three days after the

20 convoy. Another convoy was prepared and people that heard over the

21 radio that the first ones that went with convoy were killed, people,

22 nevertheless, started loading the buses and trucks. However, while

23 they were loading the buses and trucks, a white vehicle with blue

24 stars came and all of a sudden Serbian soldiers ordered everyone to

25 run away from the buses, and then all of a sudden they disappeared as

Page 3123

1 though they went into the ground.

2 Q. When you are talking about the blue stars, is that the symbol of the

3 European Community?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did Kuruzovic say anything to the people that assembled there in

6 relation to what the nature of this camp was?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What did he say?

9 A. He said that that was not a camp, that this was a shelter, a

10 gathering shelter, a gathering point.

11 Q. In any event, after the International Red Cross had come and the

12 European Community monitors had been there, did things begin to

13 improve?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In what way did they improve?

16 A. First, we started, we were being given food in packages and then once

17 a day we were given a cooked meal and they gave us the -- they

18 enabled us to have water inside, so that we could at least have a bath

19 with the cold water.

20 Q. During the period of time that you were in Trnopolje camp and before

21 the International Red Cross had come and things had started to

22 improve, do you recall an incident one day when you were ordered to

23 pick up a shovel and to go into a field?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What did you do on that day when you were ordered to do this?

Page 3124

1 A. For several days we were without food, we were not given any food.

2 They were cooking for us water in which they poured bones from the

3 butcher's shop, and they made a soup for us out of those bones without

4 any salt, and this is what we lived on during the whole time we were

5 in the camp. We needed the bread and a woman, a Muslim, who worked

6 there in the camp with other women from Serbian Red Cross, she decided

7 to take money from some of us that had money and buy bread through

8 those women so that we could get it, and this is what we had done.

9 Q. Did she subsequently get that bread and did she bring it to the front

10 of the camp? Did you then go out to the front to collect some bread

11 and while you were out there did a soldier order you to move to a

12 particular place where you were told to pick up a shovel?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Where did you then go with the shovel?

15 A. It was not just me, I did not do this myself. The soldier kept me

16 for several minutes and then the other soldier went inside and took

17 another four young men, aged between 18 to 25, and the five of us, we

18 went above the building where there used to be a cafe, and this is

19 where Serbian Red Cross was in that cafe; and then above that building

20 there was a garden and this is where two Serbian soldiers stopped us,

21 and they measured by steps the area that we were supposed to dig out

22 shaped in the shape, in the rectangular shape, and they told us that

23 the depth of that should be 80 to 90 centimetres.

24 We started digging and the soldiers took the hay and they put

25 it next to a fence. Then they sat down on the fence -- on the hay and

Page 3125

1 they took out a bottle with cognac and started drinking. Then after

2 several minutes two more soldiers joined them. They were terribly

3 looking, they were bloody and unshaven; and while I was digging I had

4 my face turned to them, but I was close to them, and I listened to the

5 conversation that the four of them had.

6 Q. What were they talking about?

7 A. They were talking, they were saying which two of them were supposed

8 to fill in the hole that we were digging out.

9 Q. Did they say what they were going to fill in the hole with?

10 A. With -- manually with shovels.

11 Q. Yes. But did they say what they were going to put in the holes?

12 A. No.

13 Q. So what did you do then at that stage, at that point, after you had

14 heard this conversation?

15 A. I understood that they had an argument between them so -- I

16 understood that they would fill up what we were digging out, and then

17 I turned towards one of those soldiers and I asked them, since,

18 soldier, there was a terrible dysentery, so that every five minutes we

19 had to run to the toilet, I told to one of them that I had a pain in

20 my stomach, so could he let me go so I could go over there to another

21 garden, and he gave me five minutes, and he said, "Come back after

22 that".

23 Q. When you went out of that area did you go towards a barn?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When you got to -----

Page 3126

1 A. I went -----

2 Q. Sorry.

3 A. The barn was to my left, and I felt a smell, aroma coming, unpleasant

4 smell, coming from the right.

5 Q. Did you look towards the direction where you smelt this aroma?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What did you see there?

8 A. I looked and two metres away from me was a heap of people wrapped in

9 something.

10 Q. Were these people dead or alive?

11 A. Dead people.

12 Q. Were you able to determine their condition, the condition of their

13 bodies by looking at them?

14 A. Yes. They were placed as sardines, one on top of the other, and I

15 saw that their heads were shattered, so that I concluded that they

16 were not killed with firearms; and I also saw above their heads a huge

17 stick that was all bloody, a wooden stick.

18 Q. About how many bodies did you see there?

19 A. According to my estimate, I could not count them but around 20

20 people.

21 Q. When you saw these dead bodies there what did you do then?

22 A. At first, as I looked to the right, the first two that were next to

23 me, and I saw this first time in my life that their tongues were

24 pulled out and they were tied to each other by a wire. One of them

25 was not older than 18. He was very young.

Page 3127

1 Q. Did they all appear to be male or were there males and females?

2 A. They were only men.

3 Q. Were they dressed in military or civilian clothes, could you see?

4 A. They were not dressed in military uniforms; they were all civilians.

5 Some of them were even in red shorts and they only had the shorts,

6 they had no tops on them.

7 Q. Did you then make your escape from this place and go back to the camp

8 in Trnopolje?

9 A. Yes, yes.

10 Q. When you went back to the camp, did you keep yourself inconspicuous

11 for a couple of days in case the guards that had let you go to the

12 toilet were looking for you?

13 A. Yes, the whole time I was in the room I had my brother with me and I

14 only told him what happened. He was guarding the whole time and

15 looking out for the soldiers that might approach us.

16 Q. What about the men that had gone digging with you, digging this big

17 hole, that you had left, did you ever see those men again?

18 A. Never.

19 Q. Did you then meet the father of one of the men that were digging

20 with you in the camp?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did he describe his son to you?

23 A. Yes, I saw the man crying and telling me, "My son disappeared. He

24 was here in the morning around 8 o'clock, and I do not know what

25 happened to him", and then I asked him how did his son look like, and

Page 3128

1 he described his son and said that he had something under his eye. I

2 concluded that that was the man because I recognised him, the one that

3 was digging with me, but I did not say anything to the old man.

4 Q. When you say "something under his eye", do you mean a birth mark?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. During your time at the camp, did you ever have occasion to see women

7 being taken away from the camp by soldiers?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you describe the circumstances when you saw this happen?

10 A. Yes. One day, I do not know remember what date it was, but after I

11 have been at the camp for about one-and-a-half to two months, in the

12 beginning not all of the women were sent away from the camp, and I got

13 up in the morning at 8 o'clock and wherever I looked, to the left or

14 to the right, everyone was crying and that was strange; why were the

15 people crying? And then I asked one of them what happened. He told

16 me, "Would you like to see? Come with me".

17 I went. I followed him into a cinema where mostly women,

18 children and elderly were placed, and he took me and at the entrance

19 into this cinema, I saw to the right there was an outside toilet and

20 this is where two girls were lying. They had very few clothes on

21 them and they were bloody.

22 Q. Were you able to assess about how old they were?

23 A. They were around 13 to 15 years.

24 Q. Did you then go into the building?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3129

1 Q. When you went into the building what did you see then?

2 A. I entered the building and I saw another two girls that were wrapped

3 in blankets. They had no clothes. When I looked to the other side, I

4 saw another girl that was not giving any signs of life.

5 However, a man who stood by me, you know, pushed me into the

6 shoulder and showed me to the right and I saw there were four old men

7 lying and blood all over around them. When we came closer, I saw four

8 men slaughtered. These older men were over 60 years old.

9 Q. When you say "slaughtered", how were they killed?

10 A. Their necks were stabbed with knives and bayonets.

11 Q. Did the girls that you saw there, did they appear to have been

12 injured in any way?

13 A. Yes, they were bloody.

14 Q. As if someone had beaten them or something of that nature, is that

15 what you are suggesting?

16 A. Yes, yes, beaten or the clothes were pulled from them. This is how

17 they looked, half dead. One of them was not giving any signs of life.

18 Q. Did you ask the people in that cinema building what had happened?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What did they tell you?

21 A. The soldiers came during the night with flash lights. They came

22 from the tanks, and those were the most dangerous in that area. They

23 came in. Inside the guards that stood there moved away, and then they

24 were choosing the girls, women that they liked, and they were taking

25 them out. Some of them defended themselves and they were beaten then.

Page 3130

1 So that people in the dark tried to save whomever they tried to,

2 could save, but all the elderly that were trying to save the women

3 were killed.

4 Q. Do you remember on one occasion on a rather hot day an incident that

5 you saw outside the fence of the Trnopolje camp involving a soldier by

6 the name of Dragoja Cavic?

7 A. The soldier's name is Dragoja Cavic.

8 Q. Cavic, I am sorry.

9 A. Yes, yes.

10 Q. What did you see with this soldier?

11 A. I saw a woman who was carrying a plastic bag. The woman was about

12 30, maybe 35 years old. Dragoja Cavic, whom I met there for the first

13 time and found out his name there at the camp, was walking towards the

14 woman and was calling her by her name. I do not remember what her

15 name was. He asked her where her husband was, and who was she looking

16 for at the camp. The woman answered, "I have a son, a very young one

17 who is in the camp so I brought him some food". He turned around and

18 ordered the two guards that stood there to find her son and bring him

19 over.

20 Q. Did this soldier, Cavic, appear to be intoxicated at the time?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What happened then?

23 A. The soldiers brought the son. Then after that Cavic ordered the

24 woman to say where her husband was, and he said that her husband

25 killed a relative of his, as far as I could understand. The woman

Page 3131

1 answered, "I do not know." Cavic repeated again, "I will kill you".

2 The woman said again, "I do not know".

3 Q. What did Cavic then do?

4 A. He came closer to the woman and he put a pistol on her head by her

5 ear, and he ordered her to take off her top, the clothes, the top

6 clothes. The woman was crying terribly, but she still started taking

7 it off.

8 Q. What happened then?

9 A. She took it off. Then again he was saying he was asking where her

10 husband was, and then at one moment I heard a -- I heard firing and I

11 looked at the road and the woman was lying on her back. He shot her

12 in the head. Then after that her son was screaming so much that you

13 had to close your ears. The soldier, Cavic, turned to this young man

14 and said, "Get undressed, naked, and let everyone see". The boy was

15 crying. He started beating him and pulling the shirt off him. He

16 pulled the shirt off and then said using these words which I never

17 heard in my life, "Now I will make you rape your dead mother".

18 After those words, the people that were standing by the wall

19 of the school, they tried to leave this wall and run inside. But the

20 other soldier with a very cruel voice said, "Sit there and watch and

21 everyone who moves will be shot". We had to watch this. All of a

22 sudden, I heard firing and I looked up and saw as the boy fell next to

23 his mother.

24 Q. What happened after that?

25 A. At one moment from somewhere the soldiers, other soldiers, pointed

Page 3132

1 their guns towards Cavic and said, "Put your arms up". He threw his

2 pistol away and he still had another automatic rifle on him and he

3 discarded that too. They came closer to him. They put the handcuffs

4 on him and they took him somewhere.

5 Q. Did you ever see Cavic again?

6 A. Next morning when I came outside I saw Cavic in the same military

7 uniform. The same pistol was on him and the same rifle was on him.

8 He was walking by the wire.

9 Q. He appeared to be back on duty again, did he?

10 A. He came back to his duty as usual.

11 Q. Did you stay in Trnopolje camp for a period of about four-and-a-half

12 months?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Were you then forced to sign a paper concerning your assets and

15 property?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What was the effect of the paper you had to sign?

18 A. Yes, the effect was that all of us had to sign the document, that on

19 our own free will we are giving our property to Serbian authorities

20 and that we will never come back, neither with the gun nor without the

21 gun; whoever did not sign could not leave.

22 Q. After you had signed this paper, were you then shortly after that

23 period allowed then to board buses which headed towards Prijedor and

24 ultimately you arrived in Croatia?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3133

1 Q. On the way to Croatia up until the time when you were taken over by

2 the UNPROFOR were you under armed guard of the Serbian soldiers?

3 A. Yes, we were under armed guard of Serb soldiers up until Dvor on Una

4 river. This is the entry into Croatia. This is where a large bridge

5 was; and at that bridge halfway through the bridge Serb soldiers

6 escorted us and then they loaded us on buses and returned.

7 Q. Do you know the accused in these proceedings, Dule Tadic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. For how long have you known him?

10 A. For a long time, but some 10 years before the war, that is when I

11 really got to know him.

12 Q. Can you remember when you met him?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you tell us when that was, approximately?

15 A. It was somewhere in 74 or 5, I cannot be more precise. That was the

16 first time I sat close to Dule Tadic and a friend of mine invited me

17 to join them at their table.

18 Q. Who was the friend?

19 A. Ismet Karabasic.

20 Q. Do you remember the name of the place where you met?

21 A. Yes, it was in Kozarac and the restaurant was called Basta.

22 Q. On this occasion did you have a conversation with Dule Tadic?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you then meet on a second time?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3134

1 Q. How did you come to see him the second time, that you remember?

2 A. The second time I came about and I saw at the table, at the same

3 place in the same restaurant, I saw Dule Tadic sitting with policeman,

4 Emir. Emir was next to him and he invited me and I sat at their

5 table.

6 Q. So you sat down at the table with Emir and the accused Dule Tadic?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What is Emir's second name?

9 A. Emir Karabasic.

10 Q. Apart from these two particular meetings that you can recollect with

11 the accused Dule Tadic, did you see him from time to time in the town

12 of Kozarac?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Where did he live in Kozarac?

15 A. He lived in Kozarac when one goes along the main Prijedor/Banja Luka

16 road and then enters Kozarac, to the right we have a restaurant and

17 beyond the restaurant there was a shop, footwear, and then there was a

18 residential house and then the next one was Dule Tadic's house.

19 Q. Did you have occasion to go past this part of Kozarac on a fairly

20 regular basis?

21 A. Well, it would be Saturday or Sunday, when I was free.

22 Q. Do you know whether, so far as you know, Dule Tadic lived in this

23 same house in Kozarac all the time that he lived there?

24 A. Yes, while he lived in Kozarac.

25 Q. Do you know what he did, what Dule Tadic did before the war?

Page 3135

1 A. What his business was, I do not know.

2 Q. Were there any commercial activities associated with his residence in

3 Kozarac?

4 A. Yes, he had a cafe bar below his house.

5 Q. Did you know his father's name?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What was his father's name?

8 A. Ostoja Tadic.

9 Q. Was Ostoja Tadic reasonably well known in the Kozarac area?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What was known about him, about the history of Ostoja Tadic that you

12 know of?

13 A. He took part in the last war as of 1941, from the beginning of it.

14 He was an eminent citizen of a cheerful disposition.

15 Q. Do you know whether he was alive at the time of the commencement of

16 the war in 1992?

17 A. No, he was not alive.

18 Q. Do you know whether the accused Dule Tadic was married or was he a

19 single man?

20 A. Married.

21 Q. Do you know where his wife came from?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Where was that?

24 A. Yes, from the village of Vidovici.

25 Q. Do you know whether they had any children, Dule Tadic and his wife?

Page 3136

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you how many children they have?

3 A. Two, to my knowledge.

4 Q. Do you know any people who were associates or friends of Dule Tadic?

5 A. Not really, well, one, there was one whom I often saw with him.

6 Q. Who was that?

7 A. Policeman, Emir Karabasic. That, I think, was his closest friend.

8 Q. Did you know his wife's father's name?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Do you know whether Dule Tadic was involved in or interested in any

11 sporting type activities?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What were they?

14 A. Karate.

15 Q. Was, to your knowledge, Dule Tadic reasonably well known in the town

16 of Kozarac?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you know why he was reasonably well known?

19 A. I believe he was the best known among children and young people who

20 always looked up at him and pointed at him, "There's Dule Tadic and he

21 coaches karate".

22 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, at this stage I would like to move on to a

23 part of the evidence which relates to the application that I made

24 yesterday.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for five minutes and then we

Page 3137

1 will go into closed session.

2 (The court adjourned for a short time)

3

4 (Closed Session)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3138

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 pages 3138-3185 redacted closed session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24 (The hearing adjourned until Tuesday, 25th June 1996)

25