1 THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL TRIBUNAL CASE NO. IT-94-1-T

2 FOR THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA

3 IN THE TRIAL CHAMBER

4 Tuesday, 25th June 1996

5 (10.00 a.m.)

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?

7 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honours. I call Hamdija Kahrimanovic.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is that No. 30 listed on your new list, Mr. Niemann?

9 MR. NIEMANN: Hamdija Kahrimanovic, 28, your Honour. 28 on the new list,

10 30 on the old list.

11 HAMDIJA KAHRIMANOVIC, called

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Sir, would you take that oath, please?

13 THE WITNESS [In Translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak the

14 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

15 (The witness was sworn)

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated.

17 Examined by MR. NIEMANN

18 Q. Is your full name Hamdija Kahrimanovic?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Were you born on the 6th February 1942?

21 A. No, 1941.

22 Q. Where were you born?

23 A. I was born in a locality called Kozarusa, between Kozarac and

24 Prijedor, about 1,400 metres away.

25 Q. Did you attend primary school in Kozarusa?

1 A. Yes, in Kozarusa I completed the first four grades, and in Kozarac

2 another four.

3 Q. After that I think you did secondary school in Prijedor?

4 A. Yes, I graduated from the Secondary School of Economics in Prijedor.

5 Q. I think you then went to Belgrade where you attended Teachers

6 College?

7 A. Yes, I went to Belgrade and graduated from the Teachers College in

8 Belgrade.

9 Q. Following graduation as a teacher, did you then go back to Kozarac to

10 teach?

11 A. I graduated as a secondary school teacher. I went back to Kozarac

12 after graduation and I found employment in the Rade Kondic elementary

13 school in Kozarac.

14 Q. Then did you in 1968 build a house in Kozarac where you lived until

15 the commencement of the war in 1992?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. During your time at the school in Kozarac did you serve part of the

18 period or some considerable part of the period as the principal of

19 that school?

20 A. Yes, in 1974 I was appointed assistant principal and I remained in

21 that post for just under two years. After that I was for two terms,

22 that is for eight years, the principal of the school in Kozarac.

23 Q. Did you do your military service in Macedonia from 1965 until 1966?

24 A. Yes, Macedonia, the towns of Tetovo and Gostivar.

25 Q. Are you by nationality and religion a Muslim?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you know the accused in these proceedings, Dule Tadic?

3 A. I do.

4 Q. For how long have you known him?

5 A. Well, you see, as soon as I was employed in Kozarac I lived with my

6 parents until about 1967. Then I moved in Kozarac. I lived in a

7 building across the street from the school, a small apartment, studio,

8 and about 15 or 20 metres away from Dule's parents until 1968 when I

9 built my own house. Therefore, I know him a very, very long time.

10 Q. Was he ever a student at your school?

11 A. Well, he must have been a student of our school. I do not know

12 exactly when he went to school, possibly the higher grades in '66,

13 '67,'68, I do not know exactly when he was born, but since the school

14 is there and all his brothers went to that school, then he must have

15 gone to that school. I do not remember teaching him personally

16 because while I was in the classroom I usually worked in the first

17 shift, you see, but the rule of the school was that for students

18 living in the immediate vicinity of the school to attend in the second

19 shift, so it is possible that I replaced someone in the afternoons,

20 but mostly I worked in the first shift.

21 Q. Do you know where Tadic lived in the town of Kozarac?

22 A. Yes, of course I know. I could not go into the street or into my

23 yard without seeing the building in which the Tadics lived.

24 Q. Would you please look at Exhibit 196, if that could be shown to the

25 witness? (Same handed to the witness) Mr. Kahrimanovic, I would ask

1 you, first of all, to look at that document and can you tell me

2 whether you recognise what it is?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. What is it?

5 A. It is the main road through Kozarac, the Marsala Tita Road going from

6 Rajkovici to the Prijedor/Banja Luka junction. This rectangle

7 indicates the Tadic house -----

8 Q. If I just stop you there for a moment? I would ask that the plan be

9 put on the overhead projector. We want to put it on the video screen

10 beside you there, Mr. Kahrimanovic. I would ask you, if you would,

11 just to point with a pointer, firstly, to where your house is, if you

12 are able to identify that for us. You will need to do it on the screen

13 beside you and to your right. You cannot do it on the television

14 screen.

15 A. I am sorry. I did not understand the question.

16 Q. You will have to do it on the plan.

17 A. This should be Tadic's house and in this part is my house. Somewhere

18 here, going from Tadic's house to my street, it is the Prvomajska

19 Street, and the second house on the right is mine.

20 Q. I ask you, if you would, to look at these two photographs that I now

21 show you. Just have a look at these two photographs and if they can

22 be marked respectively A and B, 237A and B, and then shown to the

23 witness? Mr. Kahrimanovic, I would ask you to look at these

24 photographs you are shown and if you recognise what it is a photograph

25 of, could you tell us, please?

1 A. On this photograph is the cafe owned by Dule.

2 Q. OK, and the other one?

3 A. And this photograph is of his house which was built on top of the old

4 house. The upper floor was his own apartment.

5 Q. When you refer to "Dule" and his, are you referring to Dule Tadic?

6 A. Yes, he was usually known as "Dule" in Kozarac. Most frequently he

7 was referred to as "Dule". It was his nickname.

8 MR. NIEMANN: I tender those photographs.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is 27A the cafe and 27B the photo of Mr. Tadic's

10 house?

11 MR. NIEMANN: Would you look at the back of the photograph for me, please,

12 or perhaps just pass them to me? 27A is just the house and 237B is

13 the cafe.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection?

15 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 237A and B will be admitted.

17 MR. NIEMANN: Could you just put them on the screen firstly and zoom up on

18 that, if you would? Just looking at that, Mr. Kahrimanovic, what is

19 that? Can you describe that, please?

20 A. It is the Tadic house. Below is the old building in which they used

21 to live and the upper floor was built later, and that was his actual

22 apartment.

23 Q. If you go to the right of the screen there, you see a building

24 starting to project out from there in the photograph. Is that also

25 part of the Tadics' building?

1 A. It is an annex and in that annex is the cafe, the business premises.

2 Q. Can you look at the next photograph, 237B, and are you able to tell

3 us what that is?

4 A. That is the cafe, that is the business premises, as I said.

5 Q. Thank you. Perhaps they could be returned to the Registrar? Mr.

6 Kahrimanovic, this is the building that you would see, is it, from

7 your house if you turned into your street and headed towards the main

8 street of Kozarac? Mr. Kahrimanovic, if you walked into your street

9 and turned towards the main street and walked up towards the main

10 street of Kozarac, is that the building that you would see when you

11 walked up towards the main street of Kozarac from your place?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. As far as you know, did Dule Tadic and members of his family live in

14 these premises for all of their lives for all of the time that you

15 were there?

16 A. I could not say because he probably spent a part of his life after

17 elementary school studying somewhere and then he probably did his

18 military service. So it is hard to say, yes, that he spent his whole

19 life there. But recently, that is several years before the war, he

20 lived there without interruption.

21 Q. Did you know the names of his mother and father, Dule Tadic's mother

22 and father?

23 A. Yes, I did. His father's name is Ostoja, his mother, Staka.

24 Q. Is his father still alive?

25 A. No, he died a few years before the war.

1 Q. Did you know his father?

2 A. I knew him well. He was a man of prestige. He was the bearer of the

3 1941 partisan badge. We are neighbours. We were very close. We must

4 know each other. We had to see each other almost every day. But, you

5 know, you are living in the same community and that is how it is in

6 everyday life.

7 Q. Do you know whether Dule Tadic was married when you were living in

8 Kozarac?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you know his wife's name?

11 A. Mira.

12 Q. Do you know where she worked?

13 A. Most recently, the years before the war, she worked in the health

14 clinic in Kozarac.

15 Q. Where did your wife work?

16 A. My wife also worked in the health clinic in Kozarac. This

17 institution was the only one she worked in and continued working

18 there. Her entire employment was there, first in the old building and

19 then in the new one.

20 Q. Did your wife stay in this employment up until the takeover of

21 Prijedor in April/May 1992 when she was dismissed?

22 A. Until the takeover in Prijedor she worked in the health clinic in

23 Kozarac, and somewhere in mid-May 1992 she assessed the situation as

24 it was and she left and went to Austria to stay with our son.

25 Q. Did you know whether Dule Tadic had any children?

1 A. Dule Tadic had two daughters. I am sorry, I did not answer the

2 previous question you asked me. I am sorry.

3 Q. I think the answer you have given is sufficient. Did you know any of

4 the neighbours of Dule Tadic?

5 A. Well, I knew them all. I knew all the inhabitants of Kozarac, but

6 Dule Tadic's home was very much in the heart of Kozarac. It was

7 surrounded with Muslim houses. If we go from the direction of

8 Prijedor towards Mrakovica, there is Ankic Salih's house, then the

9 house of Dule and Dule's parents, then Sulja Mujagic's house.

10 Q. I think just on either side would be sufficient, if you can tell us

11 that?

12 A. Across the street, not exactly across the street but diagonally, is

13 Hamdija Hodzic's house, then an apartment building socially owned in

14 which teaches worked, lived, and next to it another socially owned

15 building with a chemist shop, a barber's shop and above that were

16 apartments.

17 Q. Thank you. I think that is probably sufficient. Did you know from

18 time to time whether Dule Tadic used premises at the school for the

19 purposes of teaching karate?

20 A. Yes, yes. I was then principal of the school when very often we met

21 his requests and allowed him to use the gym.

22 Q. Did students of the school from time to time attend his karate

23 lessons in this hall?

24 A. Yes, they did. Members of the club were certainly students of our

25 school and it was in our interests for our children to take part in

1 sports, and karate is one.

2 Q. Do you know what Dule Tadic was trained as when he did his education,

3 his schooling?

4 A. After elementary school, eight year elementary school, I know he went

5 to secondary school -- at least I heard it from his parents because we

6 were often in touch -- but I do not exactly know what speciality he

7 graduated in.

8 Q. Do you know any of Tadic's friends that you saw him with from time to

9 time?

10 A. Well, yes, he was often in the company of my colleagues from school,

11 Kemal Susic, Basic Zijed, Sinanagic Mustafa. He was also friendly

12 with others, but these boys were linked with him mainly through

13 sports.

14 Q. What sport in particular was that?

15 A. I am thinking of karate and the colleagues I mentioned, they were

16 teachers of physical education.

17 Q. Do you know whether Dule Tadic was in any way involved in politics?

18 A. More recently, just before the war, it could be noticed that he was

19 engaged in politics, but earlier on, I would not know.

20 Q. Do you remember reading an article in a newspaper sometime in 1990,

21 1991, relating to Dule Tadic and his family?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What was the nature of this article that you read in the newspaper?

24 A. I think the article was published in a Belgrade newspaper called

25 Vecernje Novine. The contents of the article could roughly be

1 summarised as follows, that Dule Tadic had received an anonymous

2 letter in Kozarac saying that if he does not move out within three

3 months, he and his family would be liquidated, with an unclear

4 signature of the author of the letter.

5 Q. Do you know whether this matter was investigated?

6 A. Well, you see, that letter was like thunder because until then

7 nothing like it had happened and the leading party in Kozarac reacted,

8 disassociating itself from the text, from the letter and spirit of the

9 letter. I know that an analysis of that text and the letter and the

10 handwriting were investigated in Prijedor.

11 Q. Do you know whether the person who wrote the letter was ever

12 discovered?

13 A. I did not read the official report of the police regarding the

14 analysis, but it was widespread, the rumour was widespread that the

15 author of that letter was Mira Tadic.

16 Q. When you said the main party in Kozarac, the leading party in

17 Kozarac, reacted disassociating itself, are you referring to the SDA?

18 A. Yes, that was the ruling party at the time.

19 Q. Prior to this letter being published, had any incidents like this

20 occurred in Kozarac that you can recall relating to tension between

21 the ethnic groups in Kozarac?

22 A. I am not aware of it.

23 Q. Was this article published in the newspaper in Belgrade as well as

24 the local newspaper in Kozarac?

25 A. The article appeared in the Belgrade newspaper, but you know what

1 journalists usually do, after such a sensational article then they

2 copy the same context and that text appeared again in the Kozarac

3 Vjesnik and in the daily newspaper of Oslobodjenje.

4 Q. Why do you describe the article as being "sensational"?

5 A. I think that the locality of Kozarac, its inhabitants, did not

6 deserve because they had not shown any reason for being humiliated in

7 that way; to say that the people of Kozarac were threatening anyone

8 with liquidation is something unacceptable because we were not like

9 that, we, the people of Kozarac.

10 Q. Did the SDS party and the Serbian people, Bosnian Serbian people, in

11 the region who were associated with that Party rely on this letter in

12 the course of their political campaigns?

13 A. Yes, certainly.

14 Q. Did you ever see people involved in the SDS party gather at the

15 premises of Dule Tadic while you were living in Kozarac?

16 A. Well, more recently, that is right before the war, Dule Tadic

17 socialised with more or less the same circle of people in Kozarac.

18 Let me mention, for instance, Milos Radulovic, Dusko Kesic, Mirko

19 Grahovac, Trivo Relic, Slobodan Selimovic. Those were people who

20 lived in that locality. Very many did not even live, had ceased to

21 live, in the place itself.

22 Q. To your knowledge, were these people involved in the SDS party?

23 A. In my own view, all the Serbs in Kozarac were members of the SDS.

24 Q. You mentioned one person, Simo Miskovic, do you know his involvement

25 with the SDS party?

1 A. Simo Miskovic was even the President of the SDS.

2 Q. President where?

3 A. Well, the headquarters of the party was in Prijedor. I presumed they

4 had their branches in surrounding localities such as the area of

5 Kozarac, Omarska especially, that is, in those parts where there was

6 Serbian population.

7 Q. Apart from Tadic's premises, his cafe, do you know where else these

8 meetings were held?

9 A. Often times one could see, even I had the opportunity to see, often

10 how groups of those people met in the priest's house in Kozarac which

11 was almost next to the church in Kozarac. One could even observe them

12 walking around Kozarac often, presumably, discussing whatever they had

13 to discuss. Myself, I, for instance, saw Dusko Tadic with Djoko Kesic

14 who worked as a laboratory technician in the health centre in Kozarac,

15 and they would meet and then have their tete a tete, conversations.

16 Some permanent premises, I mean, some local premises, fixed premises

17 in Kozarac, I do not think existed.

18 Q. When you refer to "priest" you refer to the Serb orthodox priest?

19 A. Yes, yes, we called them "pop" like that, we just say "pop", priest.

20 He is, of course, the Serb orthodox priest.

21 Q. Apart from meetings that took place in the town of Kozarac and

22 surrounding areas, were there meetings, to your knowledge, held in

23 other towns in the opstina of Prijedor?

24 A. Frequent contacts, frequent meetings, took place in Omarska.

25 Q. Any particular reason why these meetings would take place in Omarska?

1 A. My personal view, yes, Omarska was an exclusively Serb locality with

2 Serb inhabitants.

3 Q. This time frame that we are talking about when you made these

4 observations about these meetings in these various places of these

5 people, is that the period 1991/92?

6 A. Yes, especially '92.

7 Q. In 1992, particularly leading towards April and May, did you and

8 other members of the Kozarac community take steps to address the

9 deteriorating political situation in the Kozarac region?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What did you do?

12 A. Well, the inhabitants of Kozarac, especially in May, during May '92,

13 created a Citizens Peace Council, a Council for Peace Citizens League.

14 I was one of the members of that forum. Members of this forum were

15 mostly prominent inhabitants of Kozarac, people of prestige there, who

16 thought that we should try to solve the problems that had already

17 begun and appearing there by peaceful means and to try to continue as

18 we did until that time.

19 I remember that sometime in the middle of May we had a joint

20 meeting of a part of that League of ours because we could not always

21 meet in full because, of course,

22 people worked, but sometime in mid May '92 we had a meeting in

23 Prijedor which was attended by Dusko Tadic, among others. He was also

24 involved in this patriotic League.

25 Q. Apart from Dule Tadic and yourself, can you remember other members of

1 this particular League of Peace?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you name some of those people?

4 A. Dr. Jusuf Pasic, Kemal Fazlic, Hamdija Balic, Kemal Susic, Husein

5 Mujagic, Dusko Tadic, Milenko Zigic.

6 Q. Which of those people that you have named were Serbian people?

7 A. Dusko Tadic was a Serb and Milenko Zigic.

8 Q. Do you know why Dusko Tadic was appointed to the League of Peace?

9 A. For a very simple reason, that we wanted, because until that time we

10 had lived together, to go on fighting for our joint life in the

11 future, and we did not want only the Muslims turn out to be the only

12 ones fighting for this joint life. We wanted, we cared about having

13 other people, representatives of other ethnic origin on our forum in

14 Kozarac, a Serb, for instance, who lived in Kozarac, because we did

15 not want it to look like a mono-ethnic forum, mono-ethnic Council.

16 Q. You speak of attending a meeting from Prijedor, that is, the League

17 of Peace attending a meeting in Prijedor during May, do you remember

18 mentioning that?

19 A. Yes. In the middle of May we had a meeting in Prijedor and at that

20 meeting the citizens, inhabitants, of Kozarac represented by me, by

21 Dr. Jusuf Pasic, by Hamdija Balic, Kemal Susic, Dusko Tadic, Milenko

22 Zigic. That meeting was also attended by delegates from the Local

23 Commune of Kozarusa. I recall that they were represented, that

24 delegation were represented, by Djuro Pupavac.

25 Q. Who represented the people in Prijedor that you went to see?

1 A. The Serb authorities were represented by Simo Drljaca, the MUP

2 Secretary in Prijedor, and Simo Miskovic, President of the SDS.

3 Q. What was discussed at this meeting and what was the outcome of it?

4 A. Well, we deliberated about how all the inhabitants of the locality of

5 Kozarac should be loyal to the Serb authorities because it had taken

6 over the power on 30th April, whilst members of the police in Kozarac

7 should also sign and write allegiance to the Serb authorities, that

8 is, citizens of the locality of Kozarac should be invited to turn over

9 their weapons. Those were the questions that our attention was

10 riveted on.

11 There were also some other questions. We were guaranteed that

12 after we met all those conditions, no complicated situation or

13 problems would arise. For instance, there was a question: Well, if

14 no problems are going to arise, then why had Kozarac been left by the

15 orthodox priest and gone to Omarska? And then we were charged with a

16 task of trying to return the priest, the orthodox priest, to Kozarac,

17 and Kemal, myself and Dusko Tadic were charged with trying to do that.

18 Q. What had happened to the orthodox priest in Kozarac?

19 A. I do not know why, for what reason, he left the locality. Perhaps he

20 was familiar with the situation and knew what the future held for

21 Kozarac and Kozarac people. But due to the circumstances and the

22 situation which was very tense, we met especially in May, we asked the

23 orthodox priest to return to Kozarac and that the Kozarac inhabitants

24 guarantee his safety and for those reasons we wanted, we were charged

25 with trying to bring him back.

1 However, we failed. We failed because all the three of us in

2 a mission, Dule Tadic was made responsible to establish contact with

3 the orthodox priest and then to arrange a meeting with him and

4 convince him to come back. The next day when we had agreed to go to

5 Omarska, Kemal Susic and I met in front of Dule's coffee bar and he

6 told us that the priest could not receive us today, he was too busy.

7 So we postponed our mission to the next day and the next day, the same

8 story, the same answer. We would postpone it for the day after the

9 next and Dule was gone by then.

10 Q. When you attended meetings in Prijedor where Simo Drljaca and Simo

11 Miskovic were presiding, do you know what role, if any, Dule Tadic

12 played in these meetings?

13 A. Well, we all had the same role, but we did not behave identically.

14 Our common role was to find a common compromise, a peaceful solution.

15 However, individual members of this Peace Council acted in a

16 destructive way, nevertheless.

17 Q. Are you able to name any of the individual members of the Peace

18 Council who had acted in a destructive way?

19 A. Well, yes, Dule Tadic, for instance; he had undertaken a

20 responsibility probably just to meet the form. For Kozarac people, it

21 was very important, it was fundamental, to have this orthodox priest

22 of Kozarac living amongst us and to be safe there. He did not fulfil

23 this undertaking, this mission -- for what reason he probably knows

24 himself.

25 Q. Were ultimately the citizens of Kozarac given an ultimatum by the

1 authorities in Prijedor?

2 A. That ultimatum was as follows. By May 24th, all citizens of Kozarac

3 were to take -- turn down, turn over, sorry, their weapons by 12

4 o'clock.

5 Q. Were they required to do anything else other than turn over their

6 weapons?

7 A. The police officers were to sign their allegiance, also turn down the

8 weapons. Those were the central issues of the ultimatum, as far as I

9 know.

10 Q. Was this ultimatum discussed with the citizens of Kozarac and was it

11 acceptable to them?

12 A. Well, listen, after the discussions within that League of ours, we

13 returned to Kozarac. We organised rallies, meetings, with people

14 there and informed them about the contents of our discussions. I and

15 other members of the League at a meeting of all the people of Kozarac

16 were given the task of visiting larger urban communities in the area

17 of Kozarac and talk to people directly.

18 Specifically, I and Kemal Fazlic were given the task of

19 attending a rally of the villages of Suhi Brod close to Kozarac on a

20 route to Trnopolje. We talked to people but their reactions varied.

21 Some were for and others against. People had been informed, were

22 informed, about what had happened. Two people in the areas which had

23 responded positively and laid down their weapons and they expected

24 similar moves to be organised in Kozarac. So people behaved in

25 different ways. But I know that some areas accepted the ultimatum

1 such as, for instance, villages of Hrnici or Suhi Brod which did turn

2 over their weapons.

3 Q. But as a result of this partial rejection of the ultimatum, was

4 Kozarac then attacked on Sunday 24th May 1992?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you stay in the vicinity of Kozarac until 26th May 1992 when you

7 joined a group of people that had gathered in the street?

8 A. I was in Kozarac. I did not want to leave it, whatever the cost.

9 That Sunday, May 24th, all my neighbours, Fazlic family, Saric family,

10 Kusuran family, we were all in the cellar of the family of Dautovic.

11 They were all people who lived in my street. At 1.25 I saw the first

12 shell hit my yard. From then on the shells became countless.

13 It is true that on May 26th I joined the column of people

14 moving from the direction of Mrakovica, that is, from the upper part

15 of Kozarac. I asked them, "Where are you going then?" because that

16 morning I had run out of the cellar and my neighbour had asked me,

17 told me, "Hamdo, will you go up and see what is happening? We can

18 hear some noise up there". So I asked the people where they were

19 going, and they said, "We are going to the crossroads of the Banja

20 Luka/Prijedor road".

21 I returned to the shelter and I told my neighbours, "I am

22 joining that column". I took the bag that I already had prepared and

23 they followed suit, and that is how we joined them and headed towards

24 Prijedor.

25 Q. At Kozarusa, were men and women separated from the group and were you

1 placed on a vehicle that took you to the Keraterm camp?

2 A. Yes, from the Kozarac junction on the road Prijedor/Banja Luka, we

3 moved perhaps a kilometre up to the bus station which we used to call

4 Limenka, and we saw there masses of weapons, masses of military tanks,

5 APCs, enormous quantities of them, and on that road the controls that

6 took place, and women and children were taken to one side and men to

7 the other.

8 After the search and the control, we were boarded on to buses.

9 Some people remained at that checkpoint, unfortunately, forever. I

10 entered the bus where my neighbour Ilijaz, my neighbour Abdulah, my

11 brother-in-law Zijad were already on that bus, and we were taken with

12 many more people -- I cannot remember them all -- to the premises of

13 the tiles factory called Keraterm.

14 Q. Did you spend the night of 26th at this camp and the next day, 27th

15 May 1992, were you then taken to Omarska?

16 A. Yes, on 26th we arrived in Keraterm, perhaps around 10.00 or 11.00.

17 I cannot remember. We spent the night there. Then Wednesday came

18 and we spent the whole day where we were. We were getting ready to go

19 to sleep, and then around 9.00, 9.30 in the evening, somebody said,

20 "Buses are arriving on the Keraterm grounds", and somebody, I think,

21 even mentioned that there were 26 of them.

22 A little bit after that, the gates opened, "Get up, in

23 columns, one by one", and 70 on to each bus. We started on Wednesday

24 around 2200 hours and arrived in Omarska between 3.00 or 4 o'clock in

25 the morning and that was a journey of horror. You see, I mean, it was

1 20 kilometres only, yet you see how long it took. We stopped very

2 often. People were taken off those buses. Bursts of fire could be

3 heard. Buses crawled and, as I have said, we arrived in Omarska

4 between 3.00 and 4.00. There we were taken by surprise because we

5 immediately attended a very ugly scene when a man from Kozarac was

6 beaten probably so that we could see what was in store for us.

7 Q. Where were you taken to when you went to Omarska, where were you kept

8 when you first arrived?

9 A. They locked us in a hall. To be honest, Omarska is, well, near

10 Kozarac, some 15 kilometres, yet I never been there. I have only been

11 to the place, so that was my first encounter and a very ugly one. It

12 was night time. I did not know the area at all, but the door of the

13 bus, the front door opened right against the entrance into the room

14 where they put us. Then this bus on which I was, those prisoners went

15 into that room and then they continued coming and coming and coming.

16 I do not know how many really, but I think about four or five hundred

17 people were put in that room.

18 Q. Did you see the accused Dule Tadic when you were in Omarska camp?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you see him once or on more than one occasion?

21 A. Twice.

22 Q. When did you first see him in Omarska camp?

23 A. That Thursday when we arrived in the camp, I was in the second group

24 of five taken for interrogation and after the interrogation we were

25 taken back to a place which was called "garage" and there were very

1 many of us there. Once I counted up to 150 and I did not go on. Then

2 Friday came and since there were many, the garage door was open and we

3 were let out of the garage pista.

4 We were staying -- we were standing the length of the building

5 which housed that garage. We stood there until late afternoon, until

6 dusk. The sun had already set when we were taken to another room on

7 the upper floor of that structure. We were allowed either to

8 sit or to stand up, however one felt like doing. At a certain point I

9 stood up because I was bored with sitting, I could not sit any more

10 and, as I started standing up, I noticed, I saw Dule Tadic, and I

11 turned suddenly my back and sat down and I did not stand up any more.

12 Of course, I did not move until we moved to this other accommodation,

13 to that room on the upper into.

14 Q. Was this the Friday after the attack that occurred on the previous

15 Sunday, 24th May?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So that would make it 29th May; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. At what time of the day, can you remember, did you see Dule Tadic,

20 approximately what time of the day?

21 A. Well, it was the afternoon. I can hardly say what time of the day

22 it was because without a watch one had to look at the sun to assess

23 this, but I should say around 4.00 or 5.00 perhaps.

24 Q. Did you recognise him when you first saw him?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. How far away from him would he have been when you saw him?

2 A. Well, listen, some 20 or so, he was standing in front of the kitchen,

3 in front of the canteen, well, listen, some 20, 25 metres. I would

4 not know exactly.

5 Q. What were the weather conditions like? Did the weather conditions in

6 any way hamper you having a good view on that day?

7 A. That day was very bright and sunny.

8 Q. Did anything else obstruct your view that you can remember?

9 A. I do not remember that there was anything that could obstruct my

10 view.

11 Q. Was Dule Tadic on his own when you saw him or was he with somebody

12 else?

13 A. Well, there were two or three uniformed with him.

14 Q. Did you observe what he was doing?

15 A. Listen, I did not really stand for much longer. I guess they were

16 talking about something.

17 Q. Did you observe how he was dressed?

18 A. Camouflage, standard clothes.

19 Q. Did you see whether or not he had any weapons on his possession?

20 A. I did not see.

21 Q. I think you said you saw him on a second occasion when you were in

22 Omarska. Can you remember approximately or can you remember when that

23 was, the date of that sighting, when you saw him?

24 A. It was in the middle of the following week, about mid-day. We were

25 taken to the dining room for lunch, and going there, on the way there,

1 towards the dining room, I noticed Dule Tadic again roughly at the

2 same place where I had seen him the first time.

3 Q. Again, approximately what distance were you from him when you first

4 saw him?

5 A. Then maybe 10, 15 metres.

6 Q. Were you able to get a good view of him on this occasion, on this

7 second occasion?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you remember whether there was anything that interfered with your

10 view, whether it be weather conditions or any other obstruction that

11 prevented you from getting a good view?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did you see whether Tadic was on his own on this occasion or was he

14 accompanied by other people?

15 A. Again, he was in the company of two or three people.

16 Q. On this occasion can you recall how he was dressed?

17 A. The same, in camouflage uniform.

18 Q. On both these occasions are you sure that the person you saw there

19 was the accused Dule Tadic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How long did you stay in Omarska camp?

22 A. On Friday of that week I was transferred to Trnopolje camp.

23 Q. This is Friday of the first week of June?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How long did you stay in Trnopolje camp?

1 A. I spent the night, overnight.

2 Q. What happened then?

3 A. We arrived in Trnopolje by bus from Omarska. There were 27 of us.

4 Entering the Trnopolje camp, somebody escorting our bus made a list of

5 our names and said that we would be spending the night there and that

6 tomorrow at 7.00 a bus would come to collect us and take us to

7 Prijedor. We left the bus, entered the camp, Trnopolje. There were

8 friends and colleagues there waiting. I was accommodated in the

9 premises of the library of the school, together with my friend and

10 neighbour, Sulejman Caufe.

11 At 7.00 or 8.00 in the morning when we were told to get ready

12 outside the command building, a man in uniform was there. He swore at

13 us, our God, he said, "Where have you been? We were looking for you

14 last night? The bus has gone." They found 22 people and five of us

15 were missing. I said, "But that was what we were told. What should

16 we do now?" "I do not know, we will see". That was the answer.

17 I went back to the library and maybe only some 15 minutes

18 later Sulejman comes in saying, "Hamdo, they have come to pick us up

19 with a police van". Then I went out together with Suljo and another

20 three men whom I did not know. We entered the van and we were taken

21 to the Prijedor police station.

22 We were then taken to the hall and told to sit down. We sat

23 down. A policeman came and asked, "Who is Hamdija Kahrimanovic?" and

24 I said, "Me" and he told me to follow him. I followed him and he led

25 me through the premises and took me to a room where Simo Drljaca was

1 sitting.

2 Q. What happened then when you came to Simo Drljaca?

3 A. Just outside the room of Simo Drljaca, there was Vokic was standing.

4 I think his name is Radovan. I know he was a student of mine. He

5 was Simo Drljaca's driver and he said the following, "Oh, my teacher.

6 If you had beaten me, I would now pay you back". I just shrugged and

7 entered the room. I sat down. We used to be colleagues at work. He

8 was a lawyer in the centre for elementary education and upbringing.

9 Q. Who is "he"? Whom are you referring to as "he used to be a lawyer"?

10 A. He was a legal by education in peace time. He was a lawyer in peace

11 time.

12 Q. Yes, but tell us who "he" is. Are you talking about Simo Drljaca,

13 are you?

14 A. You asked me what I did outside Simo Drljaca's room. Yes, I am

15 talking about Simo Drljaca.

16 Q. What happened? What did he say to you?

17 A. He offered me a seat. I sat down. I had two glasses of cognac and

18 he said to me, "Look at what your people have done. They went and

19 killed such a good man as Osme". He was Police Commander in Kozarac.

20 Then he listed some other boys, some other men, saying, "You see what

21 your people have done? They have killed them". I just shrugged. I

22 did not know what to say.

23 We sat a while and then he ordered his secretary to write out

24 some kind of certificates with the help of which we could move around.

25 I did not know what address to give him because I did not know where

1 I would be staying, but that was a Saturday and he ordered that I

2 should come back on Monday to tell him my address, and with this

3 certificate we had freedom of movement within the territory of the

4 city of Prijedor.

5 Q. What period of time did you stay in the city of Prijedor?

6 A. I stayed until August 20th 1992.

7 Q. During the period of time that you were in Prijedor city itself,

8 living there, did you ever at any stage see the accused Dule Tadic?

9 A. Yes, I saw him in Prijedor very often, most frequently in the company

10 of Drljaca. I remember a direct contact the two of us had. We ran

11 into each other on the steps of the police station when he said to me,

12 "Hamdo, if we find medicines in your school, you will end up like your

13 secretary, Ante", and I said, "In my school you will find medicines

14 but that will be the first aid kit that every school has to have". Of

15 course, I did not know what had happened to Ante. I later learned

16 that he was in Omarska. You see, I did not know that this kit would

17 be transformed into a large pile of medicines. I was afraid, of

18 course, and I avoided contact with people that knew me. I grew a

19 beard. I put on glasses. I put on a cap on my head when I was doing

20 my work and moving around Prijedor.

21 Q. Did you work while you were in Prijedor, that period of time after

22 you had arrived there from Trnopolje?

23 A. Yes, just before the war, about mid-May, I was appointed by the

24 assembly of my school principal of the school, because the previous

25 principal had left and as the end of school year was approaching the

1 school needed a principal, and I was elected. In spite of my refusal

2 because I knew what it meant to be a principal, particularly in view

3 of the times lying ahead, I accepted the will of the absolute

4 majority. After leaving the camp, I was given premises in Prijedor in

5 a kindergarten. I was able to visit Kozarac to see my school, to try

6 to save what could be saved of the property of the school, the

7 pedagogical aids, the financial means.

8 I was driven there by the police with three policemen and my

9 assistant was with me, the secretary, Ante, too. What documentation

10 we could find, we moved to Prijedor and every day I reported for work.

11 The parents would come. Students would come for certificates at the

12 end of the school year. You know what happens at the end of any

13 school year. I continued doing this until August 20th, but it was my

14 assessment that my safety was in jeopardy and it was, indeed, in

15 jeopardy. I was taken twice.

16 Q. Why did you come to the conclusion that your safety was in jeopardy?

17 A. The military police came twice to pick me up, to take me. I learnt

18 that the military police knew about me or, rather, Miso Radulovic had

19 recommended me to the military police. That is the man I was talking

20 about before, unfortunately -- he was my witness at my marriage, at my

21 wedding.

22 Q. When you say you saw Tadic several times in Prijedor city when you

23 were there, was he dressed the same way on each occasion that you saw

24 him?

25 A. Roughly the same, yes.

1 Q. How was that?

2 A. I noticed his camouflage clothes, like military clothes in different

3 colours. I do not know much about uniforms. I know what my uniform

4 was like while I was doing service, probably that was the fashion now.

5 Anyway, he was wearing such a uniform. I saw him very often in

6 Prijedor, as I said, and very often in the company of Drljaca and this

7 Vokic.

8 Q. Did you see him about the same area or did you see him in various

9 areas all over Prijedor?

10 A. While I was doing the work I was doing in Prijedor, my route was

11 always the same, from the kindergarten to the municipality building

12 and the police station, occasionally to the bank building. That was

13 the same path, the same direction, because somehow it had become a

14 habit. I knew the people I was going by. There were lots of

15 checkpoints, lots of patrols, and I had some luck because in my ID

16 papers it said that I was inhabitant of Prijedor. It said Prvomajska

17 6, Prijedor, and when they saw that I came from Prijedor, it was easy

18 to pass, but people from Kozarac had grave difficulties. Therefore,

19 my route was more or less the same and it was along that path that I

20 saw Dusan Tadic, but most frequently in front of the police station.

21 Q. The police station is sometimes referred to as the SUP?

22 A. Yes, the same building where the police station was and the other

23 departments of that institution, MUP.

24 Q. Were you at any time during 1992 a member of any military,

25 paramilitary, group or any anti-Serb armed resistance group?

1 A. No. Just at the beginning of the election activities, I was thinking

2 of continuing in SDP because at that time, I must admit, I was a

3 member of the League of Communists, but in the election campaign I did

4 not join any party and particularly not ethnic parties -- I am a

5 teacher -- because I have children of various ethnic groups whom I

6 teach.

7 Q. Have you ever met or known of anyone in the Kozarac region or area

8 who looks very much like the accused Dule Tadic and who from time to

9 time has been mistaken for Dule Tadic?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Would you please now look around the courtroom and tell me if you can

12 see the person that you know and recognise as Dule Tadic?

13 A. Yes, that is Dule Tadic.

14 Q. Would you please point to that person and describe for the record

15 where he is located in the courtroom?

16 A. He is left of me in the middle between two uniformed persons.

17 MR. NIEMANN: Might the record reflect, your Honour?

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The record will reflect that the witness identified

19 Mr. Tadic.

20 MR. NIEMANN: I have no further questions, your Honour.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Mr. Kay?

22 Cross-examined by MR. KAY

23 Q. Mr. Kahrimanovic, I would like to deal with something, first of all,

24 that you mentioned at the end of your evidence, and that was that you

25 decided not to join any political party during the elections as you

1 felt that, as a teacher, you did not want to be identified with any

2 particular group; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did it seem to you, then, that the people in your area were dividing

5 themselves along ethnic lines?

6 A. That is what it seemed to me, yes.

7 Q. That the people were identifying themselves with the political party

8 that supported their ethnic group?

9 A. Well, yes. Muslims SDA, Serbs SDS. There were people belonging to

10 other parties, there were other parties, not just these two ethnic

11 ones, the Reformists, the Liberals, the SDP members etc.

12 Q. The HDZ?

13 A. Yes, yes, HDZ. I left it out of course, certainly.

14 Q. In Kozarac, that was a village or town that was principally Muslim,

15 that would have made the SDA a powerful party within that town?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. In fact, looking at the numbers of different nationalities within

18 Kozarac, the SDA would have been the overwhelming voice of the people

19 who lived within Kozarac?

20 A. According to the election results, yes, because it was the majority

21 party and the majority people. The Muslims were the majority in

22 Kozarac.

23 Q. These elections we are talking about were the ones in 1990; is that

24 right?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. After 1990 many people had identified themselves with a political

2 party for the first time?

3 A. I am not quite sure that we can say for the first time, because, you

4 know, from the previous prewar period there was one party, the League

5 of Communists, and certainly that many of the members of that party,

6 the prewar party, accepted and joined new organisations, new parties.

7 Q. Yes, you are quite right to refer to the previous political situation

8 before 1990 because there was only one party, but for the first time

9 in 1990 there was more of a choice for the people to identify

10 themselves with other parties?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. After those elections in 1990, politics and the choices for the

13 people became much more greatly discussed by the citizens than they

14 had in the former days under the Communist government when there was

15 only one political party?

16 A. Yes. The era of democracy, they say.

17 Q. Yes, and this was very much a new era that was to start and for the

18 first time people were experiencing the new politics?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You seem to be someone who has lived in this area for many years and

21 know the people. Can you assist me at all as to how Kozarac became

22 principally a place where Muslims lived?

23 A. I am afraid I could not tell you how. It would be as if you were to

24 ask me how come that Omarska was a place inhabited exclusively by the

25 Serbs. I suppose it was the will of the people through history

1 through the centuries to decide where they would live. As far as I

2 know, there was no coercion forcing anyone to live here or there.

3 Everybody could live where they wanted.

4 Q. That was going to be my next question, since you had posed it, which

5 was how Omarska, as you described it, became a Serb village or town

6 and why it is identified as such? But it seems you cannot supply me

7 with the answer; would that be right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. At this time then with the new politics emerging, outside Kozarac

10 were the people aware of the tensions between politicians and the

11 government, the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina, as well as the

12 government in Belgrade?

13 A. Well, you see, the general political situation was what it was.

14 Whether there were people who believed that there were differences in

15 the political views between Belgrade and Sarajevo, well, certainly

16 there must have been.

17 Q. Presumably, you citizens within Kozarac were aware of these arguments

18 or debates that were taking place at a higher political level beyond

19 you citizens?

20 A. We had occasion to see the Assemblies at the Republic level. We

21 could listen to the Assembly meetings at the communal level, and the

22 same roughly could be said of meetings at the local level.

23 Q. Did this cause citizens to identify themselves, perhaps more

24 strongly, with the parties that they favoured?

25 A. I would not say so.

1 Q. What I am going to suggest to you, you see, is that within Kozarac

2 many of the younger people were identifying themselves very strongly

3 with the SDA, and what it meant to them as young Muslims, perhaps not

4 looking back at history with the experience that older people may

5 have?

6 A. It is not my view that those people turned to the young Muslims.

7 This was a process that had swept the whole country. There was

8 infiltration among the youth of the Muslims and their identification

9 with the SDA. The same could be said of the HDZ and the SDS parties.

10 MR. KAY: Your Honour, that is a convenient moment.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.

12 (11.30 a.m.)

13 (The court adjourned for a short time)

14 (12.05 p.m.)

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, you may continue. I apologise for the

16 delay. We had asked someone to indicate to counsel that we were in a

17 plenary meeting discussing matters that required a vote. So I

18 apologise for the delay, but here we are.

19 MR. KAY: Mr. Kahrimanovic, I would like to continue asking you some

20 questions about politics in Kozarac. The first thing I want to deal

21 with is this, it is right, is it not, that Kozarac did not have an SDS

22 party founded within it prior to the conflict?

23 A. May I ask you something? I have never engaged in politics, and I was

24 not a member of any political party. I was not interested in all

25 that. So, would you please ask me less questions which deal with

1 politics? As for your question, listen, in Kozarac itself one could

2 count on the fingers of one hand the number of people who were members

3 of political parties, and I think that people who lived in Kozarac

4 were active within SDS party which was founded where there were far

5 more Serb inhabitants.

6 Q. So, would it be right, if I can take the take end of that answer,

7 that what you are saying is that Kozarac did not have its own SDS

8 party established within that town?

9 A. I do not know if it did or did not. I know that groups of people of

10 Serb ethnic origin often rallied around those people that I mentioned

11 which seems to be indicating that some activity was, indeed, taking

12 place there, and that they were embroiled in the SDS politics because

13 how else can I interpret their meetings, their socializing, their

14 agreements, acceptance and extended arm, a branch of another place,

15 such as Omarska or Prijedor and such like.

16 Q. So what you are saying is that associations between Serb people at

17 this time prior to the conflict you were interpreting as being

18 necessarily connected with politics?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Just standing back and looking at that, do you not think that is a

21 little bit unfair? You mentioned that Mr. Tadic was with a man called

22 Kesic, you called him Djoko Kesic, do you think it was "Dusan" Kesic?

23 A. Dusko Kesic -- and Djoko, I did not mention that -- a laboratory

24 technician in the health centre in Kozarac.

25 Q. We are both talking about the same person you described that seeing

1 him with Dusko Tadic that it was like a tete a tete, as though they

2 were secretly discussing politics?

3 A. Well, listen, it was not secret. Had it been secret, it would have

4 happened in some -- in camera somewhere, but they talked as they did.

5 I said that I am not aware that in Kozarac, in this particular

6 locality, there were any particular premises assigned to the SDS, but

7 that their meetings, their associations, their communication, their

8 contacts took place -- were held in places which I described.

9 Q. Do you know if Dusko Kesic was ever a member of the SDS?

10 A. Personally, I do not and I also do not know many other people who are

11 members of other parties. I have not seen his application or his

12 membership card. But the very fact that you are usually seen in the

13 same milieu, that you often associate with the same people, allows one

14 to assume that you are a member or a sympathiser, a follower of a

15 particular party.

16 Q. Or Trivo Relic, do you know if he has ever been a member -----

17 A. Trivo Relic?

18 Q. Yes. Do you know if he has ever been a member of the SDS?

19 A. Of course I saw him in this company, so it applies to him as well.

20 Q. But do you know if he has ever been a member of the SDS?

21 A. Not to my specific knowledge. I have had no opportunity to learn

22 that.

23 Q. You see, these people that you are saying that Mr. Tadic associated

24 with, you do not know whether they were talking about politics or not?

25 A. I assume they did.

1 Q. But you are assuming as a guess, but I would be right in saying to

2 you that you do not know, and that would be a fair answer to say you

3 did not know?

4 A. I said that I knew they all worked together and co-operated and,

5 surely, they had no other reasons to meet and to talk except for party

6 reasons.

7 Q. But there would have been a life outside party politics, would there

8 not?

9 A. It is all an integral part of politics.

10 Q. As you say yourself, you were outside party politics?

11 A. And I did not socialise with people who were members of some of the

12 parties that I knew about, we had nothing to discuss, to talk about.

13 Q. Within Kozarac itself, would it be right to say that certain groups

14 who were in favour of the SDA party had formed checkpoints or guard

15 posts at various buildings and positions in that town?

16 A. I do not know about that.

17 Q. You did not know about the guard post outside the orthodox church

18 quite near to where you lived?

19 A. I had heard about various other places, but those other places, they

20 were of different ethnic composition. I also heard another version

21 that the priority task and exclusive task of that guard post was to

22 look after the church, because there were rumours in Kozarac that

23 somebody was about to blow up the church, and the church has not

24 bothered any of Kozarac inhabitants for centuries, so, presumably,

25 they were there to look after the church.

1 Q. The orthodox priest that you mentioned, he is Mladen Mejakic?

2 A. Believe me, I do not know that individual at all. I have never seen

3 him.

4 Q. Did you not know him because he lived next door to the church?

5 A. Yes, but I did not know him at all. Probably he only lived there for

6 a very short time because I know that many people changed there in

7 that part. There were a few people. I did not know him. I may have

8 met him that day had we accomplished the mission that we were supposed

9 to.

10 Q. You knew that he had fled from Kozarac with his family?

11 A. Well, there was talk about that in the locality, "The orthodox priest

12 is gone, something might happen", and that was why we cared, that we

13 really wanted to bring him back to the locality and have him live with

14 us because we did not think, at least in our view, there were no

15 reasons why he should leave Kozarac.

16 Q. He had left with his family, were you made aware of that?

17 A. No.

18 Q. That he had left at the beginning of May, in fact, 3rd May?

19 A. I know we were given that mission to try to persuade him to come back

20 somewhere around the middle of May. When he left, I would not know.

21 Q. Did you not know that originally he had left Kozarac and gone to

22 Banja Luka?

23 A. About his movements and the routes he took were something that I know

24 nothing about at all.

25 Q. You did not know anything then about the circumstances as to how he

1 left?

2 A. Nothing.

3 Q. But you told us that Mr. Tadic acted destructively because he failed

4 to get the priest to return?

5 A. No, it was not his mission. His mission was to establish the contact

6 with the priest, so that the priest would receive us and so that

7 myself and Dusko and Kemal Susic could go to him. That contact was

8 not established on two occasions and the third time when we came to

9 him to see if we could go, we did not find Dusko there.

10 Q. When you say that contact was not established, did you mean that the

11 priest would not see you or are you saying that Dusko Tadic did not

12 speak to the priest?

13 A. Both alternatives are possible.

14 Q. Because you told us earlier today that Mr. Tadic had told you that

15 the priest was too busy to see you and did not want to see you?

16 A. Yes, he could not receive us that day because he was too busy and

17 that meant that we would probably be received the next day, and when

18 the next day we returned, and those same people at the same place, the

19 answer was that he was busy again. The third time when Susic and I

20 came, we did not find Dusko at the place we had agreed upon the

21 previous day, and that was it, in front of the coffee bar.

22 Q. You expressed that to the court as Dusko Tadic acted destructively,

23 but you did not know what had been said between Dusko Tadic and the

24 priest?

25 A. It is logical; either the priest did not want to receive us or Dusko

1 did not want to establish contact with him. There is no third

2 possibility.

3 Q. So if the priest did not want to see you, then it would not be right

4 to say that Dusko Tadic had acted destructively?

5 A. Why did Dusko Tadic not tell us the reason why the priest would not

6 receive us that day? But if the priest was busy today, then he would

7 be free tomorrow. If he was busy tomorrow, then he would see us the

8 day after tomorrow. But I really wonder if it was possible that he

9 could not receive us on any one of those three days.

10 Q. Yes, exactly so it would be wrong as you do not know to blame Dusko

11 Tadic if the priest did not want to see you?

12 A. Dusko Tadic had assumed a responsibility of the Civic Council, a

13 member of which he was, and he had to comply with it.

14 Q. If he cannot comply with it, that is not his fault, is it?

15 A. Then he should have told us that the task was beyond him and that we

16 should look for another person through which we could establish the

17 contact.

18 Q. Again, when you told us about the newspaper article and the anonymous

19 letter that had been sent to the Tadic family threatening them, you

20 did not know from your own knowledge who wrote that letter?

21 A. In the beginning it was not known, but I said that the ruling party

22 expressed its reservations regarding the letter and its contents, and

23 people were making guesses in Kozarac because never before had

24 anything like that happened. Of course, it was also submitted to the

25 relevant authorities in MUP to conduct the necessary investigation and

1 all the other procedures, that is, decipher the handwriting and so on

2 and so forth. I said that rumour went around Kozarac as to the author

3 of the letter.

4 Q. Exactly. That is what you heard from someone else telling you

5 something about what they had heard from an investigation or, even

6 worse, from many other people speaking to each other?

7 A. Officially, the official interpretation of the police did not exist,

8 and it is quite natural why there was not because it could have caused

9 further conflicts, further problems, and that is perhaps why there was

10 no official communication.

11 Q. You say that the SDA party disassociated itself from sending that

12 letter, but that is not to stop anyone having sent that letter

13 unofficially, some young hot heads or older hot heads sending such a

14 letter not officially?

15 A. I think that that news which spread around Kozarac was that the

16 letter had been written by Mira Tadic and that there was such a rumour

17 in Kozarac.

18 Q. No-one accepted responsibility for sending that letter?

19 A. No.

20 Q. As far as Kozarac itself was concerned, were not certain people

21 identifying themselves more as proMuslim, proSDA?

22 A. I do not think so.

23 Q. Were you unaware of anyone obtaining weapons for themselves?

24 A. I did not know. I had no contact. I am telling you. It was of no

25 interest to me, politics and all that. I am telling you.

1 Q. Would it have surprised you at the time if you had learnt that is

2 what some people were doing?

3 A. Well, listen, I would not have been surprised by such an act because

4 in Kozarac I had opportunity to see uniformed people of Serb origin

5 carrying bags with ammunition or a rifle or something. So, if a Serb

6 can carry it around, why not a Muslim?

7 Q. So, are you telling us then from what you saw and your own experience

8 and this is how you remember things, that you only saw Serb people in

9 Kozarac carrying ammunition, uniforms, weapons, that you did not see

10 any Muslim people wearing uniforms or carrying weapons?

11 A. I saw Muslims, but they are people that I know were hunters and they

12 had hunting rifles, and why had he -- why did he carry it around on

13 his shoulder or in his hands, I do not really know, but I did not

14 observe anyone carrying that conventional military rifle or some more

15 up-to-date arm, automatic or semi-automatic weapon, and I did see

16 people of Serb ethnic origin. I saw Borovnica carrying an automatic

17 weapon around Kozarac or a fellow called Tepo. His family name could

18 have been Vidovic, I am not sure. Likewise, he would go into a

19 restaurant, armed.

20 Q. So, what you are saying is you did not see any people at checkpoints,

21 Muslim people, with any weapons anywhere in Kozarac?

22 A. Well, listen, I did not say that. If -- there were people at

23 checkpoints like that and they said they were members of the

24 Territorial Defence, which was a regular unit attached to the JNA.

25 Q. So did you see TO people then before the conflict at various

1 positions in Kozarac with weapons standing guard?

2 A. Yes, the guards were of mixed ethnic origin. There were Serbs as

3 well. One of my neighbours, rather, he was not a neighbour, he was

4 the son-in-law of my neighbour, a man called Ljuban -- I cannot

5 remember his surname -- was also one of those guards. They took

6 turns, so it was not a single ethnic guard.

7 Q. So, you are saying that it was not just Muslims at guard duty; it was

8 guard duties that involved all people from the community?

9 A. Yes, members of Territorial Defence because that was the suggestion,

10 that we should control these crossroads to avoid somebody, an unknown

11 person, entering and provoking an incident or something like that. In

12 my assessment, that was the role of those guards at checkpoints.

13 Q. In the mediation meetings in May in Prijedor, did you attend all

14 those meetings or only some?

15 A. No, I remember attending one meeting. I was invited, but I had my

16 job to do. I was working in the school. I did not go, but all others

17 went and then they would come and inform the citizens what had been

18 agreed with the representatives of the Serb authorities at the time,

19 what is required, what needs to be done, and so on.

20 Q. So the one meeting that you attended was that, you say, the one

21 meeting that Dusko Tadic attended?

22 A. Yes, and Zigic Milenko.

23 Q. Do you know, in fact, if he attended another meeting but you were not

24 present?

25 A. I do not know.

1 Q. After the attack on Kozarac, you took refuge in a position within the

2 town itself; you did not leave the town like many others did?

3 A. I was there in Kozarac on the day of the attack, on Sunday, all the

4 time, all night, the night from Sunday to Monday, and on Monday

5 morning my neighbours had the idea that we should try to seek shelter

6 in the woods. My car was in the yard and we decided that I should go

7 and my next door neighbour, Fazlic Kemal. He took the Saric family in

8 his car and I took the Kusuran family and my brother-in-law, Zijad.

9 We went in the direction of Debeli Brijeg where we had a

10 lovely chalet there. There were lots of people there, horse drawn

11 carriages, tractors, people on foot, limousines. When we had climbed

12 just above the mosque, I left my car -- we saw we could not go any

13 further -- I left my car near a house that was under construction and

14 my neighbour, Kemal, and the Saric family went on. We could not go

15 further because there were shells were falling, so we sought shelter

16 in the cellar of a neighbouring house full of women and children. I

17 spent two or three hours there.

18 Then I saw I could not stay on because it was dangerous, and I

19 told my three friends, "I am going and you think it over". Then they

20 followed me down the so-called Brdjani where late in the afternoon on

21 that Monday we spent a couple of hours and when it was quite dark, we

22 turned back towards our homes, towards the centre.

23 Q. So you would have stayed that night on the Monday night, 25th May,

24 back in Kozarac, is that right?

25 A. No, the night between Monday and Tuesday, and the night between

1 Sunday and Monday, I spent the night in Kozarac with the neighbours I

2 have named.

3 Q. So on 26th May when you joined the column from Mrakovica -----

4 A. This was not a column from Mrakovica; it was a column coming from the

5 direction of Mrakovica. I do not know exactly where they were coming

6 from, but we called it the direction of Rajkovici. This was a column

7 that we joined with the exception of the Fazlic and Saric family whose

8 whereabouts at the time I did not know.

9 Q. Yes, I understood what you said and I was quoting from your words

10 this morning. All I wanted to know was at what time you joined that

11 column.

12 A. Between 7.00 and 8 o'clock.

13 Q. Is that in the morning?

14 A. Tuesday morning.

15 Q. When you got to the bus station on the Banja Luka/Prijedor road, can

16 you tell me what time that was?

17 A. The place where I had joined was about 300 or 400, 500 metres from

18 the Banja Luka Prijedor cross roads. Maybe you need some 10 minutes

19 to reach that junction, but we did not stay there. We went ahead in

20 the direction of Prijedor. We reached the bus station at Kozarusa

21 known as Limenka. There was a big point there, lots of army men, lots

22 of equipment, tanks, guns. This was a checkpoint. We were searched

23 and men were separated from the women and children who went left, we

24 were told to go right.

25 Q. I am sorry, my question was, and perhaps you can help me, what time

1 it was that you reached that checkpoint, if you can tell us?

2 A. Maybe it took us about half an hour to get there from the point at

3 which I joined the column in Kozarac.

4 Q. You said that the people were being separated there, men, women and

5 children, is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Who was doing that separating?

8 A. People in uniform, mostly wearing the grey-green uniforms of the

9 former Yugoslav People's Army.

10 Q. Did you know any of them?

11 A. No, I did not.

12 Q. When you got taken to Keraterm where you stayed one night, did you

13 know any of the guards who dealt with you there?

14 A. I did not know any of the guards, but I knew a soldier who entered

15 the camp or rather the room in which we were housed. I even asked him,

16 "Cedo, can you give me a cigarette or two?" This Cedo was my teacher's

17 brother, the brother of Tambic Bozo. He went out and he brought me one

18 or two cigarettes.

19 Q. When you went to Omarska the next night, did you know any of the

20 guards who had dealings with you there?

21 A. No.

22 Q. When you were taken for interrogation after you arrived, did you know

23 who was questioning you?

24 A. There were five of them. I did not know any one of them personally,

25 though in the neighbouring rooms there were interrogators whom I knew.

1 Q. Just dealing with your own questioning, did you know any of the

2 guards?

3 A. No. No, I did not know anyone. They were not guards. There were

4 five of them in the room in which I was interrogated and I did not

5 know any of them. The police that escorted me, there were three of

6 them. I did not know any of them either.

7 Q. When you were put in the place you called the garage, did you know

8 any of the guards who were dealing with you there?

9 A. Personally, no, but I would see when the door was open that there was

10 a man in uniform there. But I did not know anyone.

11 Q. When you were taken out on to the pista from the garage, did you know

12 any of the guards there?

13 A. No, I did not. They would walk by us, two or three. They were

14 taking turns, but I did not know any of them.

15 Q. When you said about the other people who were interrogating

16 detainees, did you see anyone there that you knew in the interrogation

17 building?

18 A. You are thinking of the other Commission members?

19 Q. Yes, because you did not know who questioned you or the other people

20 in that room and I am asking whether you knew anyone else in that

21 building whom you saw that you knew?

22 A. We had occasion at least on that day when we were standing on the

23 pista in the afternoon, they would end their work, they would climb a

24 bus, a small van intended for the miners from Ljubija, and they would

25 leave the interrogation rooms. I saw a colleague of mine, he was a

1 teacher in the 16th May school. His name was Radakovic. I cannot

2 remember his first name.

3 Q. Was he the only one that you knew getting into that bus?

4 A. I only noticed him. I recognised him. I did not know the others.

5 Q. You said there was an occasion on the pista that you saw Dusko Tadic?

6 A. On that Friday, yes, we were allowed to sit down or to get up, to

7 stand there, but where we were on the spot, where we were standing,

8 that is when I saw Dusko Tadic.

9 Q. If it is possible, you have got a pointer on the table beside you,

10 are you able to stand up and indicate -- and if the video monitor can

11 now show the model between the interrogation building and the hangar

12 so that we can see on our screens, if we can focus in, please on to

13 the model? I do not seem to have the same control as others! I use

14 that politely.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I can see it. Why do you not try to ask the

16 gentleman to point. There we go.

17 MR. KAY: Thank you. (To the witness): If you can indicate to us where

18 you were standing at the time you say you saw Dusko Tadic?

19 A. Can I show this on the model here?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. Because I cannot see it on the screen very well.

22 Q. Do not look at the screen.

23 A. The garage is here.

24 Q. Keep your pointer there. Yes, we are familiar with the buildings

25 ourselves.

1 A. I was standing facing the entrance where I entered on Thursday

2 morning. I was halfway along this building, here somewhere I think,

3 so I could see diagonally.

4 Q. Yes, keep your pointer there, please, where you say you were standing

5 just for a moment, where you were standing. Is that where you were

6 standing?

7 A. Sitting and standing at that moment I was standing.

8 Q. If you could just keep the pointer there where you were sitting and

9 standing when you saw Dusko Tadic? I do not know if there is another

10 shot that the camera men -- yes, they can. That is the one. Perhaps

11 if you could indicate where you say Mr. Tadic was when you saw him on

12 the pista?

13 A. Roughly here somewhere, about here.

14 Q. Thank you. So the point that you indicated was close to the

15 interrogation building, is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Is that where you and the other prisoners were taken from the hangar?

18 A. Would you please repeat the question?

19 Q. You described being on the pista because you and the other detainees

20 were let out and you could stand or sit up. Were you in that area

21 with the other detainees?

22 A. Please, on that Friday morning when we were allowed out of the

23 garage, probably because it was too crowded inside, they let us stand

24 alongside the building. We asked whether we could sit down, they said

25 we could. Some people were sitting, some were standing and changing

1 positions. Those were the people who had been interrogated on

2 Thursday afternoon. They would then be put in the garage. That is

3 where we had spent the night about 150 or 200 people. Those were the

4 people who had come out and from there in the evening when it became

5 quite dark we were moved in the same direction to one of these garage

6 doors, one or the other, up the stairs to the last room upstairs. We

7 were not joined only by those who had spent the night in the garage,

8 but later on in the afternoon there were other prisoners who joined

9 us. Where they came from, where they had spent the night, I do not

10 know.

11 Q. How many of them were there in that group that you describe on the

12 Friday?

13 A. The evening on Thursday I do not know exactly, maybe 10, 11, 12.

14 When I was brought to the garage after interrogation I was in the

15 second group of five. People were coming, coming, coming and then at

16 one point I counted 150 and I gave up counting. We were so closely

17 packed that no one could sit down. Some of us were standing on one

18 foot. I remember two men, Susic Zijed who fainted, who lost

19 consciousness, there was a small window, there was no air, Denic

20 Junuz, they were thrown out of the door outside to catch some air and

21 then they were brought back in. That was the group on Friday morning

22 that was let out of the garage. They saw that they could not live in

23 that small space. We spent until late in the afternoon there when, as

24 I said, we were moved into that room upstairs.

25 Q. So the position you indicated to us by that building was where you

1 were placed with at one stage you counted some 150 other people, is

2 that right?

3 A. Yes, the garage was the place where we were taken after interrogation

4 on Thursday, we spent the night Thursday to Friday. Friday morning we

5 were taken out. We spent the whole day on the pista and in the

6 evening we were moved to that room upstairs.

7 Q. Yes, but perhaps you would like to stand again with the pointer and

8 indicate where you were and I will ask you the question again. Thank

9 you. If we could have the same camera shot.

10 A. I roughly remember the gate which I entered Wednesday to Thursday,

11 this door. On that Friday I was just opposite that door, maybe a

12 metre left or right, I cannot say for sure.

13 Q. If you could just remain standing so that we can see it with the

14 pointer. I want to make sure you understand the question. Can you

15 point to that same place again and leave the pointer there?

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: He has pointed twice, Mr. Kay. He understands the

17 question. I believe I understand the question and I understand both

18 answers. Why do you want him to point a third time?

19 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I am just trying to make it clear ----

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It is clear.

21 JUDGE STEPHEN: It is perfectly clear.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It is very clear.

23 MR. KAY: Your Honour, in my mind I think the witness ----

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You are not to determine whether it is clear or not

25 in your mind. We have determined it is clear. You have asked him

1 twice. Move on.

2 MR. KAY: I will move on. (To the witness): If you could sit down, but

3 ----

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: But you want to say it is still not clear in your

5 mind. It is clear. Move on, Mr. Kay.

6 MR. KAY: (To the witness): Were you in that position with some 150 other

7 people?

8 A. You are asking me?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. All the prisoners who had spent the night in the garage, I repeat,

11 on that Friday morning were taken out to the pista. I was among them.

12 We were standing in line one behind the other, a line, we spent the

13 night standing. When we came out on the pista we asked whether we may

14 sit down. We were allowed to sit down, but only one by one lined up.

15 Sitting there you can move left or right. Sometimes you get up a

16 little. That is how we spend the day.

17 Q. Were there any other prisoners in any other place other than that one

18 you have indicated outside on the pista?

19 A. Were there other prisoners from among this group or generally other

20 prisoners?

21 Q. Not generally in the camp, but on the pista. You have said that you

22 were with a large group. Were there any other prisoners on the pista

23 ----

24 A. That is the group.

25 Q. Thank you. So, when you say you saw Mr. Tadic you were actually

1 looking through a large group of people?

2 A. I would not say so. Most of the people were sitting down.

3 Occasionally they would get up because they were tired from standing

4 all night, the torture we had experienced during the interrogation,

5 the mistreatment, the harassment. So there was no theoretical chance

6 of anybody obstructing me, obstructing my view.

7 Q. The person you looked at you did not look at for a long period of

8 time, only a short moment?

9 A. Long enough to recognise him and I sat down immediately. You know

10 why.

11 Q. But it was a short period of time, is that right?

12 A. Quite long enough to recognise my neighbour whom I had known for

13 years.

14 Q. Because what I suggest to you in fact is that you made a mistake in

15 that short period of time. You did not see Dusko Tadic?

16 A. I did not see you, sir, in Omarska and I was there.

17 Q. At this stage so far you have not recognised anyone else who has had

18 dealings with you during your confinement in Keraterm, your

19 confinement in Omarska. This is the first person you know?

20 A. In Keraterm I said I had met Cedo Tambic.

21 Q. I forget. You are right.

22 A. People did not communicate with me because there was no need. To

23 tell you the truth, I did not want to communicate because it would be

24 better for me, for them not to see me or to recognise me, because in

25 the Omarska camp there were no orderly records of the names of the

1 persons detained there and precisely to avoid identification, not just

2 me but many others behaved in the same way avoiding contact with

3 others.

4 Q. But you had been a school master in Kozarac for many years, many

5 pupils had passed through the schools where you had taught, and in

6 those three days until the Friday other than the guard who was a son

7 of a colleague of yours, the only person you can recognise is Dusko

8 Tadic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. The next time you say that you saw him was in the middle of the

11 following week about mid-day, is that right?

12 A. About mid-day, I am not sure whether it was Thursday or Friday. I

13 cannot say for sure.

14 Q. Can you recollect the date it was that you left Omarska?

15 A. It was the Friday of that week.

16 Q. At that stage you had been in the camp three days?

17 A. No, I stayed a week before that. I reached Keraterm on 26th. Then

18 on 27th to 28th I was in Omarska. Then the whole week in Omarska and

19 the whole following week in Omarska.

20 Q. Can you recollect how many days it was before you left Omarska?

21 A. A day or two. It was the middle of that week and I left at the end

22 of the week. Then it must have been a day or two before that.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess until 2.30.

24 (1.00 p.m.)

25 (Luncheon Adjournment)

1

2 (2.30 p.m.) PRIVATE

3 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, Judge Vohrah asked, I think, on the last day

4 for a plan. We have a plan, your Honours. There are three plus an

5 original. I do not know whether your Honours want to mark it as an

6 exhibit? I have given a copy to the Defence. If it is to be marked as

7 an exhibit, it would be 238, but it is a ground floor plan and the

8 first floor plan of the big garage building. The numbers that appear

9 on the plan that is now being handed to your Honours correspond with

10 the numbers as in the model itself.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is it 238, did you say, or do you want to make it an

12 exhibit? 130, I think, is the -----

13 MR. NIEMANN: It could be 130A which, perhaps, might correspond.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will look, I suppose, to 130, but this is really

15 for our ease, is that correct?

16 MR. NIEMANN: It is.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Then 130 is in, but 130A will be admitted as

18 something that it was easier for us to look at when we are not in the

19 court room at least. Very good. There is no objection?

20 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Thank you.

22 MR. KAHRIMANOVIC, recalled

23 Cross-examined by MR. KAY, continued

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, you may continue.

25 MR. KAY: Just so it is clear, Mr. Kahrimanovic, may I also put to you

1 that, in fact, that second occasion when you say you saw Dusko Tadic

2 that in the circumstances you saw him that you were mistaken, it was

3 not him?

4 A. That was him.

5 Q. Can you describe what he looked like?

6 A. Standard uniform, and then slightly, well, not really a beard but a

7 growth, not particularly well kept.

8 MR. KAY: No further questions. Thank you.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?

10 MR. NIEMANN: I have no questions in re-examination.

11 Examined by the Court

12 JUDGE STEPHEN: Witness, I do not understand at all this evidence that you

13 gave about medicines at the school. What was the importance of there

14 being or not being medicines found at the school? Can you explain

15 that to me?

16 A. Yes, I can. By Statute, every school was to have a first aid kit,

17 either in a box or a bag, and the kit included bandages, plastic small

18 scissors, a needle or something, in case a pupil would be injured

19 outside the building or around the school building, in the school

20 yard, so that first aid could be extended to him or her.

21 It was important because my secretary, that is, the school

22 secretary, he was Ante Zlotaj, the school secretary, found himself in

23 the camp at Omarska again because one of the members of those SDS

24 troops, I do not know whom, when going through the school found a

25 contingent of such medicines and they thought there were medicines,

1 some medical supplies, prepared for combat operations possibly. So in

2 my school there was such a first aid bag which included this and it

3 was to serve the purpose.

4 Q. Thank you very much, that explains it. The second question I wanted

5 to ask you was when you say that you saw the accused in Omarska twice,

6 is your recollection that the person you saw was bearded or without a

7 beard on those occasions?

8 A. Well, as for the beard, no, he was simply unshaven. That is what I

9 mean. That is what he looked like. I mean, when a beard, then it is

10 already a growth of hair; whereas he looked as if unshaven.

11 Q. Thank you. The last question I wanted to ask you relates to the

12 priest who had left the town and your task initially was to try to

13 secure his return. That being so, did you not make some enquiry as to

14 why he had left and what were you told as to why he had left?

15 A. I did not enquire about that. Personally, I think he left it for

16 reasons of security. I believe he knew what awaited our town and that

17 was why he left because we felt, we thought that there was no reason

18 for it, that we had lived there together until then, and we also

19 wanted perhaps to recover our self-confidence by bringing him back

20 into our environment because there was no reason why. But he did

21 leave, so evidently he had some reason to do so and, presumably, that

22 meant that he knew something that we did not know.

23 Q. But no-one gave you any explanation for his leaving?

24 A. Not that I would know about.

25 Q. Thank you.

1 A. Not since he left.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kahrimanovic, you testified that 27 persons left

3 on a bus to the Trnopolje camp, is that correct? Then when you left

4 there were 22 of you. My question is what happened to the other five,

5 or do you know?

6 A. I will try to explain. There was a misunderstanding. From Omarska

7 we were taken by a bus and there were 27 of us. We arrived in front

8 of the Trnopolje camp and then we were all filed by person who

9 escorted us, that is, we were put on record and we were told to

10 manage for ourselves and to spend that night there and then the next

11 day a bus would come to the command building, and then take us from

12 there to Prijedor. So, it depended on how people managed; I managed

13 somehow because I had some friends and colleagues there and I was

14 taken there, that is, they took me to the school library. That is

15 where I spent the night. In the morning I went to the command

16 building as it had been agreed to report there or enquire about a

17 superior. I do not know what had happened to the bus that we had been

18 told the previous evening would come to take us to Prijedor.

19 He cursed my God and used other four letter words and said,

20 "Well, where are you? We were looking for you all night and we

21 managed to find 22 of you and to put on the bus and take them to

22 Prijedor", and then I asked him, "And what about us? What do we do?"

23 "Whatever you can manage", and meanwhile the camp commander arrived,

24 Slobodan Kuruzovic, who was a school fellow of mine, and I asked him,

25 "Slobo, you know that we arrived last night, and this night this

1 happened they had found 22. I know no reason for which they should

2 take those 22 and what are we supposed to do now?" He said, "I do not

3 know, wait".

4 So I went back to the school library and a few minutes later

5 my colleague, Sulejman Causevic, came, and said, "They are asking for

6 you, Hamda". So I and another three persons came out, I do not know

7 who they are, but that is those last five, and we were put in a police

8 car and taken to SUP office. So the next day we were all there, all

9 27 of us.

10 Q. I have another question. It is a general question, sir. You have

11 lived in Kozarac or did live in Kozarac your whole life, I gather, is

12 that correct, until recently?

13 A. Well, yes, I said I was born in Kozarac and that is where I came out

14 from the latter part of the primary school, that is the last four

15 years, I passed examinations to come out of the primary school and I

16 lived in Kozarusa with my parents when I return from my military

17 service until 67, 68 when I finished, and then in 68 I built my own

18 house. Until then I lived in my family house and in this house, of

19 course, I lived until 26th May '92.

20 Q. I gather that you have taught both Muslims and Serbs in the school

21 where you were a school teacher and then a principal, is that correct?

22 A. Absolutely. While I was the principal, I did not teach because I was

23 the principal. So I had to perform the duties of the principal, but

24 before I was assigned deputy principal in '74, I worked in classrooms,

25 and after '74, after my second term as a principal, I went back to

1 teaching but then to the school in Kozarusa which had been built

2 meanwhile as the primary school eight grade elementary school, but as

3 a part of the school in Kozarac until '82 when I was again appointed a

4 principal of that school.

5 While I was in Kozarusa, I was the, how shall I put it, as a

6 host. I was a supervisor there, that is, I did not rank the same as

7 the principal of the school in Kozarac.

8 Q. My question really related to your having taught Muslim and Serb

9 children; I gather Serb children go to school with Muslim school?

10 A. Absolutely.

11 Q. You testified that you have persons of other religion in your family.

12 You lived in a neighbourhood where there were Serbs, is that correct?

13 Is all of this correct?

14 A. My next door neighbour was a Serb, a very good man.

15 Q. So I guess my question ---

16 A. He died in my wife's hands.

17 Q. -- is perhaps not a fair question, I do not know that you could give

18 a complete answer, but perhaps you can help me to understand since I

19 am not from that area. How could you explain that some of the

20 atrocities that we have heard have been committed, generally I am

21 talking about, throughout the former Yugoslavia, how can you explain

22 that something like that would happen? Given your background, given

23 your experience, knowing that Serbs and Muslims lived together, went

24 to school together, intermarried, how did it happen?

25 A. It is difficult to answer, this question. I am also at a loss. I

1 have the keys to my next door neighbour who was a Serb, but he had my

2 keys. That is how we looked after each other, one another. We

3 visited each other for holidays. My best man at my wedding was a

4 Serb. We were friends and he was the same one who threatened us. It

5 is inexplicable what happened to those people. It was some kind of

6 madness. I mean, one did not know whom to trust any more and I do not

7 have a word of explanation for that.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to this witness being

9 permanently -- any additional questions, Mr. Niemann, Mr. Kay?

10 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mr. Kahrimanovic being

12 permanently excused? Very good. You are permanently excused, Mr.

13 Kahrimanovic. Thank you very much for coming.

14 (The witness withdrew)

15 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, could you call your next witness.

17 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour. I call Zijad Jakupovic.

18 ZIJAD JAKUPOVIC, called.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you take that oath, please?

20 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak the

21 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

22 (The witness was sworn)

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may be seated, sir.

24 Examined by MR. NIEMANN

25 Q. Is your name Zijad Jakupovic and were you born on 8th September 1956?

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. Where were you born, Mr. Jakupovic?

3 A. I was born in Kozarac, Hrnici 107, the village of Hrnici.

4 Q. How far is the village of Hrnici from the centre of the town of

5 Kozarac?

6 A. A kilometre-and-a-half.

7 Q. Where did you attend your primary school?

8 A. Kozarac.

9 Q. Did you attend secondary school in Prijedor?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When at secondary school did you do a course in building

12 construction?

13 A. Yes, that was a course.

14 Q. Did you live at your property in Hrnici up until 1992?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were you initially employed as a bricklayer and then subsequently did

17 you work land in an agricultural sense in the Hrnici area after you

18 had done this, after you had worked as a bricklayer?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. Were you in the army from July 1975 to 1976?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you do your military service in an artillery unit and did you

23 attend your military service in Serbia?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Are you by nationality and religion a Muslim?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you know the accused Dule Tadic in these proceedings?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you remember when you first met him?

5 A. The first time we were in primary school in Kozarac together, that is

6 in the 6th, 7th and 8th grades we were together.

7 Q. Were you in the same class as Dule Tadic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Although you lived in the village of Hrnici which is close to

10 Kozarac, did you see him from time to time in Kozarac throughout the

11 course of your life up until 1992?

12 A. Yes, I saw him often.

13 Q. Can you tell us very briefly where he lived in Kozarac?

14 A. Kozarac, he lived -- he has a restaurant and above this restaurant is

15 next to Perusa -- Perusa was his next door neighbour, that is his

16 nickname, Perusa and Hankic was the surname -- that is, there is this

17 coffee bar and above it is his house. There, I think, is a shop and I

18 believe there is yet another home, I cannot remember their name, the

19 name of the man between the shop and Dule's coffee bar, is yet another

20 house and beyond his house is the road leading to the hospital.

21 Q. So far as you know, did he live, he and his family, at this place all

22 the time that you knew him?

23 A. As far as I can remember, they had lived there all their lives.

24 Q. Do you know what Dule Tadic did in Kozarac for a living?

25 A. Yes, he coached karate.

1 Q. After he coached karate do you know what he did?

2 A. Oh, after that he had the coffee bar.

3 Q. Do you know his father's name -----

4 JUDGE STEPHEN: If this is merely for the purpose of qualifying him as

5 somebody to identify, surely that has been sufficiently done?

6 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honours feels so, that is fine. (To the witness):

7 Do you recall when Kozarac was attacked in May 1992?

8 A. Yes, I do. It was on 24th May 1992 in the afternoon.

9 Q. Were you at home at the time when the attack occurred?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What did you do immediately the attack started, where did you and

12 your family go?

13 A. Well, I went back home to the cellar and we hid there with my wife

14 and children and other members of the family while the shelling

15 lasted.

16 Q. Did you then receive instructions over the radio for people to report

17 to Trnopolje?

18 A. Yes, on the radio they were informing us and I learnt that in

19 Trnopolje a kind of a reception centre was being formed, that we were

20 all to report there, so that I took my family and went out.

21 Q. How long did you stay in Trnopolje?

22 A. In Trnopolje, some six days.

23 Q. Were you then transferred to Keraterm?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When you went to Keraterm were you placed in a large room with about

1 200 other prisoners?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. While you were in Keraterm were you beaten or mistreated in any way?

4 A. Yes, I was, that is, beaten by Duca and Zigic -- not once, many

5 times.

6 Q. When you say "Duca", to whom are you referring?

7 A. I am referring, I did not know Duca before the war. I met him in the

8 Keraterm camp. "Duca" is his nickname. I believe he is called Dusan

9 Knezevic. "Dusan" is his first name. I am not sure about "Knezevic".

10 Q. On how many occasions were you beaten by Dusan or Duca Knezevic?

11 A. Well, he sometimes would come in the morning, sometimes in the

12 evening, and some meanwhile by car in civilian clothes, and he would

13 do what he had come to do, that is, beat us and be on his way again.

14 Q. Are you familiar with the appearance of Duca Knezevic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You have just said a moment ago in your evidence that you knew Dusan

17 Tadic or Dule Tadic. In your mind, is it possible to confuse the two

18 men by looking at them?

19 A. No, it is not.

20 Q. Is there any particular reason why you say the two men are not

21 similar to each other?

22 A. Well, as they were more or less of the same height, except that Duca

23 was very well built, very broad shoulders. He had a round face, and

24 he looked younger.

25 Q. How long did you stay in Keraterm camp?

1 A. I stayed between 15 and 16 days.

2 Q. Where did you go then?

3 A. I went to the Omarska camp.

4 Q. When you went to Omarska where did they place you?

5 A. They put us in the white house.

6 Q. While you were in the white house at Omarska, did you ever see the

7 accused Dule Tadic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you tell me approximately when this was that you saw him -- in

10 Omarska camp, I mean, the date?

11 A. Roughly the date, it was about 21st June, 21st or 22nd. I do not

12 remember exactly, but around that date.

13 Q. Can you tell me approximately what time of the day it was when you

14 saw him, approximately?

15 A. Approximately, to tell you truth, I did not have a watch because they

16 took our watches away but it was the afternoon. I think it was about

17 3.00 or 4.00 in the afternoon.

18 Q. Where were you precisely when you first saw Dule Tadic?

19 A. I was in the white house, entering the white house, the right-hand

20 room.

21 Q. You were near the entrance to the white house?

22 A. Me? Would you please repeat the question?

23 Q. Were you sitting near the entrance to the white house, is that what

24 you said?

25 A. I was sitting inside, in the room in the white house.

1 Q. I see. The answer that I have here in the transcript to the question

2 is, "I was in the white house, entering the white house, the

3 right-hand room". You were already in the white house, I take it,

4 you did not enter it?

5 A. I was sitting in the white house and I was looking through the window

6 when I saw Dusko Tadic. It is the room, the first room, to the right.

7 That is what I said. I spent 15 days there.

8 Q. How for away was Dule Tadic from you when you first saw him?

9 A. Roughly, he was not far away from the window, seven to 10 metres away

10 from me.

11 Q. Did you recognise him when you first saw him?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Were you able to see all of him?

14 A. No.

15 Q. How much of him could you see?

16 A. I just saw the upper part of him.

17 Q. Is that from the waist up?

18 A. Yes. Yes, yes, from the waist up.

19 Q. Apart from being obstructed in seeing that part of him, were you

20 obstructed from seeing any other part of him as he came past that

21 window?

22 A. Yes, I was sitting below the window sill, in front of me was the

23 window sill so I could not see the lower part of him.

24 Q. But apart from that did you have a clear view of him?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Were the weather conditions fine on that day?

2 A. Yes, it was fine.

3 Q. Were you able to keep him under observation for some time?

4 A. No, not long -- just as he passed by beneath the window.

5 Q. Was he walking or standing still when you saw him?

6 A. Walking.

7 Q. Was he with anybody or was he on his own?

8 A. There were two other guards with him.

9 Q. Had you seen him with these people before?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Was there any particular reason or any particular factor that

12 triggered your recollection of Tadic when you saw him on this

13 occasion?

14 A. The only reason was that I already had some experience with camps, if

15 somebody recognises you, because mostly acquaintances killed their

16 own, their acquaintances, their colleagues from work, and I was

17 afraid. I was afraid he might recognise me.

18 Q. So it was because you knew him that made you more attentive when you

19 saw him?

20 A. Certainly.

21 Q. Do you recall how he was dressed?

22 A. I remember he had the top part of a camouflage uniform, no cap on his

23 head and a shirt, camouflage shirt.

24 Q. Were you able to see whether or not he was armed?

25 A. No, I could not see whether he was carrying anything in his hand.

1 Q. Were you able to see where he appeared to be going?

2 A. He was moving towards the entrance of the white house.

3 Q. Did you actually see him enter the white house?

4 A. No, I could not see him enter. I just heard that somebody entered.

5 Q. When you say you "heard", did you hear footsteps?

6 A. Yes, like footsteps, you could hear somebody walking.

7 Q. The footsteps that you heard were consistent with him and two other

8 guards entering the white house?

9 A. I do not know whose footsteps they were. I just heard footsteps.

10 Q. How long were you in the white house?

11 A. In the white house, 15 days roughly. I do not know exactly whether

12 it is was 15 or 16.

13 Q. Had you seen Dule Tadic in the white house on any other occasion?

14 A. No, I saw him just that once.

15 Q. Did you ever see him again in the Omarska camp?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you see him leave the Omarska camp on that day that you saw him?

18 A. No.

19 Q. During the period 1992, were you a member of any military,

20 paramilitary group?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Would you please look around the courtroom and tell me whether you

23 see the person that you know as Dule Tadic?

24 A. Yes, that is he sitting between the two policemen.

25 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, I think he has described it, your Honour.

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The record will reflect that the witness described

2 the accused -- identified the accused.

3 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions, your Honour.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Cross-examination?

5 Cross-examined by MR. KAY

6 MR. KAY: Thank you. Mr. Jakupovic, you mentioned that it was about 21st

7 or 22nd June that you say that you saw Dusko Tadic in Omarska?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you tell me how you are able to specify either of those days,

10 21st or 22nd June?

11 A. I could specify those days because from the day I went to the camp,

12 and the time I spent in Trnopolje and Keraterm, plus the white house

13 and then after I came to the white house, three or four days later I

14 met -- I saw Dusko Tadic.

15 Q. Yes. What I am asking about is how you are able to pick out either

16 of those two dates of 21st or 22nd June.

17 A. I did not pick out those two dates. I do not remember whether it was

18 21st or 22nd. I said 21st or 22nd, roughly. I do not remember the

19 date. I came from Keraterm, how should I say, I was beaten up. I was

20 fighting for my life. I did not know what date it was.

21 Q. So it could have been a date other than 21st or 22nd June?

22 A. It could not be any other date because I know. That is why I said

23 "roughly" because I know how many days I spent in Trnopolje, how many

24 in Keraterm, how many in the white house.

25 Q. On that occasion that you said you saw him, you had been in the white

1 house how many days?

2 A. I was four or five days in the white house.

3 Q. You said that you were sitting in the room on the right-hand side;

4 was that sitting on the floor?

5 A. Yes -- no, not on the floor. We had, like, a small bench which was

6 on the floor but it was not very high.

7 Q. How many other people were in the room with you?

8 A. In that room there were another 10, about 10 people.

9 Q. Were they like you, sitting down or any of them standing up?

10 A. No, some were sitting. The bench was small. Only two or three

11 people could sit on the bench. Most of them were sitting on the

12 floor, on the concrete, most of them.

13 Q. You were looking out of the window and you would be looking to the

14 area of the pista in between the interrogation centre and the hangar

15 building at Omarska, would that be right?

16 A. No, I was looking straight through the window and you cannot see the

17 pista through the window because the pista is a little to the left.

18 Q. So if you looked out of that window, what view would you have of the

19 camp from where you were sitting?

20 A. From where I was sitting, I could just see straight ahead the other

21 building, straight ahead.

22 Q. From the position that you were sitting in, you could not see the

23 grass in front of the white house?

24 A. Grass? No, how could I see the grass in front of the white house

25 when I was sitting low down and the sill was just below the window?

1 So I just saw a little bit in front of me.

2 Q. When you say you saw Dusko Tadic, do you know where he was walking

3 from?

4 A. He was coming from the direction of the pista.

5 Q. From the position where you were sitting, can you see the path up to

6 the door of the white house?

7 A. No, you cannot see it.

8 Q. From the position you were sitting then what you saw of that man, are

9 you able to describe what he looked like? What was his appearance?

10 A. Yes, the upper part of his body, as I said, was in a camouflage

11 uniform like a shirt without a cap on his head. He had a small beard,

12 actually an unshaven, not a big beard, not an old beard, not a big

13 beard.

14 Q. The position that you were looking at him from, presumably, you only

15 saw him very briefly?

16 A. Yes, but enough to recognise him.

17 Q. In those circumstances, you were sitting down on that bench in the

18 room that you have described and can you remember what you were doing

19 before you say you saw this man, what was happening in the room where

20 you were?

21 A. I remember nothing was happening in the room. When somebody was

22 coming, and they usually came to the white house for beating, that was

23 regular, and then everybody would fall still, waiting for somebody to

24 come to our door.

25 Q. Was the door to your room open or shut?

1 A. Shut.

2 Q. You have described two other men whilst you were at Keraterm, one of

3 them called Zoran Zigic and the other one Dusan Knezevic?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You said that you had dealings with them?

6 A. Yes -- no, I had no contact. They beat me. They beat me to death.

7 Q. Did you know anyone else in Keraterm, any of your other guards?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Who else did you know in Keraterm?

10 A. I just knew somebody called Kailj, Kajin, something like that, and I

11 did not know any other guards. I did not know this one either before,

12 but he was in charge of one of the shifts, so I do not really know

13 whether that is his name or nickname. I just remember the name

14 "Kajin".

15 Q. In Omarska did you know anyone else who was a guard there?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Who was that?

18 A. I knew Pirman, but I met him in the camp too. Among the guards in

19 Omarska, those that I knew from before was Janjic Nenad, known as

20 "Neso".

21 Q. Any others that you knew from before?

22 A. No-one else.

23 Q. If you could describe for us so that it is clear, in the room that

24 you were sitting in whereabouts the bench was that you were sitting

25 upon. If you opened the door, whereabouts was the bench?

1 A. It was next to the wall. The bench was leaning on the wall, opposite

2 the window.

3 MR. KAY: Thank you. I have no further questions.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?

5 MR. NIEMANN: I have nothing in re-examination.

6 Examined by the Court

7 JUDGE STEPHEN: Witness, when you say you saw the accused out of the

8 window, he was with two other men, were they one behind the other or

9 were they walking abreast of one another?

10 A. They were going one beside the other.

11 Q. If the three were abreast of one another, beside one another, where

12 was Tadic in that group of three, according to you?

13 A. Tadic was the first next to the white house.

14 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?

16 MR. NIEMANN: Nothing further.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?

18 MR. KAY: No.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I have no questions. Mr. Jakupovic, is there any

20 objection to Mr. Jakupovic being permanently excused? Mr. Jakupovic,

21 you are permanently excused. Thank you for coming.

22 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

23 (The witness withdrew)

24 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Tieger will be taking the next witness.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, if I told you that was a record 20

1 minutes, what would you say, instead of two to three hours! OK. Mr.

2 Tieger, would you call your next witness, please?

3 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour. Before I call the next witness, I wanted

4 to alert the court to a potential problem. The witness has a severe

5 hearing problem which he has had since he was a child. We made an

6 effort the other day to check to see if the equipment here would

7 enable him to communicate with the court. At one point we found that

8 it was nearly impossible and then with some adjustments it seemed that

9 the communication was even better than is normally the case for the

10 witness. So I trust that may be the case at this point, but I wanted

11 to let the court know that we might be dealing with this kind of a

12 problem. In addition, I wanted to alert the interpreters. I will

13 attempt to speak slowly, so that they can follow my questions

14 sufficiently slowly to make communication as effective as possible.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I suppose there is no way to increase the audio,

16 whatever, in the earphones? If you do that, do you do it for

17 everyone? I know that, but there is a maximum. Have you checked to

18 see whether anything can be done? We, of course, press the volume up.

19 MR. TIEGER: Apparently, if the volume is too high it interferes with his

20 hearing aid. There is an appropriate level and I guess he will have

21 to find it.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will be flexible. I am sure that if we are

23 patient we will be able to find that level. OK. Call the next

24 witness.

25 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. The Prosecution calls Dzemal Deomic.

1 DZEMAL DEOMIC, called.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you take that oath, please?

3 THE WITNESS [In translation]: Yes. I solemnly declare that I will speak

4 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

5 (The witness was sworn)

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. Thank you. You may be seated.

7 Examined by MR. TIEGER

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger?

9 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. Sir, your name is Dzemal Deomic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What year were you born?

12 A. March 20th 1959. I was born in Kamicani.

13 Q. How far is Kamicani from the centre of Kozarac?

14 A. About two kilometres.

15 Q. Are you a Muslim by nationality and religion?

16 A. I am by religion a Muslim.

17 Q. Mr. Deomic, what was your occupation before the war?

18 A. I was engaged in construction work.

19 Q. Do you know the accused in this case, Dusko Tadic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. For how long have you known him?

22 A. From our school days, in Kozarac.

23 Q. Did you see him many times in Kozarac as you were growing up?

24 A. Many times.

25 Q. After you grew up did you continue to see Dusko Tadic in Kozarac?

1 A. Could you please repeat?

2 Q. Yes, of course. After you grew up did you continue to see Dusko

3 Tadic in Kozarac?

4 A. I saw him for the last time in his cafe Nipon before the war, three

5 weeks before the war.

6 Q. Did you see Dusko Tadic in Kozarac at other places besides his cafe

7 Nipon?

8 A. I would see him everywhere, at the disco club, he was a member of the

9 fire brigade, and in many other places, in restaurants, in open air

10 gardens, everywhere I saw him. I would sit with him in Kozarac on the

11 terrace. We would talk about his work. He was working in the cafe.

12 I did not have a job. I could not work for him because I had some work

13 scheduled in advance.

14 Q. Are you referring to a discussion you had with him about the

15 possibility of working at his cafe?

16 A. Yes, I was a good worker and a relative of mine worked for him and I

17 would help my relative to cover the building as soon as possible to

18 build the roof and then I went on.

19 Q. That was the roof at Dusko Tadic's cafe or house?

20 A. His cafe was next to the asphalt road and the old house was behind

21 the cafe.

22 Q. Mr. Deomic, were you in Kamicani when Kozarac was attacked?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were you at home?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Did you leave your house after the shelling began?

2 A. I was sleeping at home. The shelling woke me up. I got up, went out

3 in front of the house, and in Kamicani in the streets, in the roads,

4 one could see all on fire, burning, everything collapsing from those

5 shells, buildings falling down, and my house was not hit by a shell

6 until I went down -- I was trying to look for my people to see where

7 they had gone.

8 Q. Were you wounded after you left your home?

9 A. I was wounded. As I was moving from my house to the sawmill some 700

10 metres, I was hit in front of the house of Hrustic, and there were his

11 two sons, one of his sons lost two hands and I was hit and injured in

12 the lower back and I still have some metal of that shell.

13 Q. Did you then go to a shelter where members of your family were?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. That night did you stay there or did you go to the forest to seek

16 shelter?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Was that the forest area near Brdjani?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you stay in the forest for two nights, that first night and the

21 next night?

22 A. From the shelter in the evening, we moved towards Softici, then

23 towards the village of Brdjani, and we dropped in a house before we

24 entered the forest, and then a neighbour of mine went to look for some

25 doctors who would know how to do things. She had a gas lamp to see

1 where the wound was and if she could help, but it was not possible to

2 help it because the metal had got stuck in the bone, and then towards

3 the midnight we climbed down the hill in the forest to Brdjani.

4 Q. On the third day of the attack did the people of Kozarac begin to

5 surrender?

6 A. Those attacks, as far as I remember, on the second day, I mean, our

7 folk had to move towards Kozara and on every house, on every building,

8 on every mosque, there were flags showing surrender, but we did not

9 want to surrender and we went on towards Kozara.

10 Q. You decided not to surrender with those people who were going towards

11 Kozarac with white flags?

12 A. Some families, those, for instance, who had women and children and

13 who did not want to escape to flee towards the Croatian borders, some

14 of them surrendered and moved towards Trnopolje, and most of us who

15 did not surrender, we were fleeing towards Kozara.

16 Q. So, you were heading up toward the mountain, into the mountain area?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were you captured by Serbian soldiers?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. At that point were you alone or with a group of other people who were

21 trying to flee over Kozara mountain?

22 A. They were trying, half of the people escaped -- they did not want to

23 surrender and some of them fled, we do not know what happened to them

24 -- and half of them surrendered. Down there there was a stream. We

25 were up on the hill on Kozara mountain.

1 Q. Where were you taken after you were captured by the Serbian soldiers?

2 A. They captured us in the woods. On the top there was a soldier. He

3 had some insignia ranks and he had a megaphone, and he told us over

4 the megaphone to surrender, that the Red Cross would help us and there

5 was nothing to be afraid of, and we believed that story and after

6 that, all sorts of things .....

7 Q. Were you and the others who were captured with you taken to a place

8 called Benkovac?

9 A. Well, the group which we surrendered, we had our hands up, and were

10 coming down in the column to the river, and up on the slope next to me

11 we saw a body, a soldier had been killed. Then there is another

12 hillock and there is a clearing -- no, there is a clearing and there

13 is crushed stone there, and we then lied down three by three as we

14 were moving, and then they order us to take out everything we had in

15 our pockets, to empty our pockets, that nothing was to be left in our

16 pockets. We had to empty our pockets and put it above our heads and

17 put our hands behind our head and nose to the sand.

18 Then they started collecting with bags, with the stick going

19 through the things that we had. Next to me was Salid Hrustic. He had

20 a Croatian dinar and the Serb got him by the scruff of his neck, took

21 him some 20 metres away and he was lying on his back, and he fired at

22 him from his hunting rifle from the face and from the back. After

23 that we had to wait for another two or three hours and vehicles,

24 trucks, came to fetch us. We were loaded on to those trucks and then

25 we were taken to Uspine at Benkovac.

1 Q. Just one question about that, Mr. Deomic: was your friend Mr.

2 Hrustic shot and killed because they found Croatian dinars on him?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. When you arrived at Benkovac were there Serbian troops there?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What was done with you and the others who had been brought to

7 Benkovac once you arrived?

8 A. We came to -- we came up to the stage, the stage which was there for

9 various events, for various performances. We came up to that. We had

10 our hands at the back of our heads. I do not know how many of us

11 because we were too many.

12 Then they started questioning them one by one; first, Meho

13 Alic's son from Kamicani. He was taken to the shed and he was beaten.

14 He was so beaten that he could not bear the pain, so he screamed and

15 they killed him straightaway. Then Senad and Hamid and all the others

16 were coming after him. Softic's father was severely battered, but he

17 endured. He did not let out a sound and he was returned to us.

18 So, a number of them were taken to the sheds and nobody came

19 out, not more than one-third of us remained. Two or three hours

20 passed by and we went to have our names put on record and where we

21 were from, and then we were taken into the sheds. There were showers

22 there from some former campaign or something, and that is we spent, we

23 had very eventful nights there.

24 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would like to have marked for identification

25 as Prosecution 238, 238A and B, the following two photographs.

1 THE WITNESS: May I ask for a favour, please? It is too loud and I also

2 hear some other interference.

3 MR. TIEGER: Certainly we will take care of that immediately. Thank you

4 for telling us. Is that better?

5 THE WITNESS: Would you please say something?

6 MR. TIEGER: Is that better? OK. Mr. Deomic, do you recognise what is

7 shown in these two photographs?

8 A. Yes. I do.

9 Q. Does one of the photographs show the stage at Benkovac which you

10 spoke about and ---

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. -- does the other photograph show the sheds you referred to?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, those can be called up on the screen as soon as

15 I find out which is A and which is B. If we could call up 53/9, that

16 is 238A?

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, we are attempting to locate Benkovac and

18 as much as we encourage you sometimes to move along, can you help us,

19 perhaps, on one of the maps? Can we locate it?

20 MR. TIEGER: If you will give me just a moment, I will check with Miss

21 Sutherland.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Maybe the witness can tell the general area, please?

23 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Deomic, can you tell the court approximately where

24 Benkovac is located?

25 A. Benkovac is located not far from Mrakovica, some four or five

1 kilometres away. As you head for Mrakovica from Kozarac, there is a

2 junction there you move where there was a summer work campaign

3 organised, that is, as you moved towards Mrakovica from Kozarac, from

4 the junction you turn off.

5 Q. So if one followed the road from Kozarac toward the top of Mrakovica,

6 toward the top of the mountain, you would get to the junction to

7 Benkovac first before you reached Mrakovica?

8 A. Before, yes, before -- before to the left.

9 Q. Can we call up 53/9, please?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Does this show the sheds or barracks at Benkovac which you referred

12 to?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can we now call up 53/12? Mr. Deomic, does this show the stage where

15 prisoners were lined up?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I do not believe I have tendered 238A and B yet

18 and I would do so now.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Which is the stage?

20 MR. TIEGER: The stage is B, as I understand it.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to 238A and B?

22 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. 238A and B will be admitted.

24 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Deomic, how long were you held at Benkovac?

25 A. Three days and two nights.

1 Q. Then were you ordered on to buses and taken to Omarska?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you describe for us how prisoners were made to board the buses in

4 Benkovac?

5 A. They were driving us, I do not know what the reason was, but all of

6 us, all of us, who had to board buses had to show three fingers and

7 run towards the buses. I could not hear that well, so I was walking,

8 I had my arms outstretched and the Serb got me by the scruff of my

9 neck, took me back and they put me against a wall and hit me on my

10 hand with the butt of his rifle. Then he showed three fingers to me.

11 Then I had to show three fingers on both my hands and to crawlingly

12 approach the bus, and there were military lined up every two or three

13 metres and they were all beating me until I reached the bus.

14 Then they pushed at us, pushed us on to those buses, and in a

15 couple of minutes they closed the door. There were a couple of

16 soldiers in the bus and we started off slowly, very slowly, towards

17 Kozarac. Before we started off, we had to sing their song, their

18 anthem, "Who says who lies". So we started towards Omarska.

19 Q. The song "Who says who lies", is that a Serbian nationalist song?

20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE STEPHEN: I wonder if you could ask the witness to sit back a bit?

22 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Deomic, if you could just sit back a little bit? That

23 will be fine. When you arrived in Omarska where were you first held?

24 A. They put us in the first shed to the right on the corner.

25 Q. Using the pointer which is on the table in front of you, just to your

1 right, can you point to the place where you were first held when you

2 came to Omarska. You can stand up.

3 A. (The witness indicated on the model). Here on the corner, here. The

4 first garage.

5 Q. You may be seated. That is a small garage in the building where the

6 kitchen is?

7 A. The kitchen is behind it at the end on the corner and next to my

8 garage was another, well, something like a garage but it was not a

9 garage. It was a big room with two pillars and very many people were

10 put in there.

11 Q. Mr. Deomic, I would like to show you a couple of pictures. May I have

12 these two photographs marked as 239A and B, your Honour? Mr. Deomic,

13 can you recognise what is shown in those two photographs?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What is that?

16 A. Yes, 100 per cent, it is 100 per cent that that is where I lived the

17 first day I was brought from Benkovac in that first garage.

18 Q. Do those photographs show the garage from the outside and from the

19 inside?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would tender 239A and B.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

23 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No objection.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 239A and B will be admitted.

25 MR. TIEGER: May we first call up 25/10, that is, Exhibit 239A? Mr.

1 Deomic, does this show the garage, the small garage, in which you were

2 held looking at it from the outside? If you look at the screen?

3 A. Yes, I see it. I guess I see it.

4 Q. Is that the same picture on the television screen?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Mr. Deomic, I am referring to the television screen directly in front

7 of you.

8 A. Oh, yes.

9 Q. Does that show the outside of the garage?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can we now show 25/19, Exhibit 239B? Mr. Deomic, does this now show

12 the inside of the garage?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How crowded was this garage with prisoners when you were placed

15 there?

16 A. It was crammed. It was overcrowded with people. At the entrance by

17 the door into that garage, there was about one metre square free, but

18 further inside there was no room for an egg to fall between two

19 persons.

20 Q. Were the doors to the garage sometimes kept closed?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Was there difficulty for the prisoners to get enough air?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were prisoners provided with enough water while they were in the

25 garage?

1 A. It was very difficult to get water. It was very difficult to get

2 water. Then we asked, then we said that we would break a few windows

3 so as to get some air because with the door closed it was terrible.

4 It was hot, no oxygen, and we moved in a column by the windows, the

5 windows which we broke to get some air, and so we circulated and

6 circulated, on and on.

7 Then some of us asked the guards to bring us some water but

8 they did not want to. They ordered us that we would get more water if

9 we would sing. Then we had to sing their song again, and they did not

10 like it. We had to do it louder, so we would start to

11 sing a little bit louder, and then it was no good either, and then

12 even more louder, and then we would start singing more louder, they

13 would pass some water through the window, or sometimes they would

14 throw it at us so that all the water was spilt. Sometimes one would

15 get it on the face or we were given a can of water.

16 Q. Was that water fresh water or was there something wrong with it?

17 A. The water was -- one had to drink it because one had to, but it was,

18 but it was stale. It was polluted. There was something in it, as if

19 it has gone through the sewers.

20 Q. Were prisoners taken from the garage and beaten?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. While you were in the garage were you taken out of the garage for

23 interrogation?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Were you beaten during your interrogation?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was another prison called into your room while you were being

3 interrogated?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Were you asked whether or not that prisoner had a gun before the war?

6 A. Yes, he asked.

7 Q. OK. Was the prisoner, the other prisoner, asked whether or not you

8 had a gun?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you both answer "no" or that you did not know?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What happened then?

13 A. They beat us and beat, and I was down on my knees, and my hands were

14 down on my legs and head bowed down. I had to wait what would happen,

15 and then I had to repeat again whether I knew where he had hid it, to

16 tell them and then they would stop beating us. I was telling them, "I

17 do not know. You can kill me but I do not know. I do not know". And

18 then a solder would come from the back with a pistol and he put it

19 into my mouth and with his finger on the trigger and he asked me,

20 "Where is it? Tell us where it is". But, evidently, the gun was empty

21 and it did not fire even though he pulled the trigger, and another --

22 the other one covered him with something, with something like a small

23 rug and covered his head, and said that he would kill him unless we

24 admitted where the rifles were, but we were saying we did not know.

25 Nobody was killed at the interrogation with me, only we got quite a

1 lot of beatings on our legs, back, on the head, and all over.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.

3 (4.00 p.m.)

4 (The court adjourned for a short time)

5 (4.20 p.m.)

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.

7 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. Mr. Deomic, for approximately how

8 long were you held in the garage, the small garage?

9 A. Approximately four weeks, three weeks before the interrogation and

10 then after interrogation I was in a very poor condition because of the

11 beatings and I had great problem with my stomach. I had bloody

12 diarrhoea for seven days and nights. I ate nothing, nor could I.

13 Q. While you were in the garage, did you see Dusko Tadic in Omarska?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can we call up 239B on the screen, please? Actually, if I may, could

16 I have the original placed on the elmo, if we are going to have the

17 witness use it for indication purposes? Mr. Deomic, were you inside

18 the garage when you saw Dusko Tadic?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Using the pointer can you use the photograph to your right rather

21 than the screen but use the actual photograph which is to your right

22 ---

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. -- to point our where you were? Mr. Deomic, you will need to use

25 that, if you can look to your right first, not to the right on the

1 screen. Miss Sutherland, can you point Mr. Deomic to that? Thank

2 you. Can you show us on that photograph approximately where you were

3 when you saw Dusko Tadic?

4 A. I was roughly here, 1 metre 20 centimetres from the door and less

5 than a metre from the wall, roughly here, there. This semicircle.

6 Q. Was the door open on that occasion?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Were there any prisoners blocking your view of the outside?

9 A. I was in the front. There were prisoners behind me. Sometimes they

10 would push a little to relax. It was not possible to move. There was

11 perhaps 1 metre 30 centimetres space left and right. The door was

12 open to the left, you see.

13 Q. Where was Dusko Tadic when you saw him?

14 A. Dusko Tadic was outside the garage, maybe eight to 10 metres. Next to

15 the van there was a soldier, a guard, standing here. They stopped and

16 talked a little. Then all the others started moving away as much as

17 possible and he was there next to the van with a soldier about eight

18 to 10 metres away.

19 Q. Did you see from what direction he had come?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you show us?

22 A. He came from the direction of Omarska, from Omarska to the Omarska

23 camp.

24 Q. OK. On the picture, that is from left to right?

25 A. To the left of me, he was coming from my left side.

1 Q. Did you do anything when you saw Dusko Tadic standing outside?

2 A. I am sorry, I did not understand.

3 Q. When you -----

4 A. When I saw him coming with this young boy, a young soldier, a Serb, I

5 was afraid that he might see us, so I pushed backwards to get as far

6 away as I could inside.

7 Q. Were you able to back behind other prisoners so you could not be

8 seen?

9 A. I did not understand. Could you please repeat?

10 Q. Were you able to move behind other prisoners in an effort not to be

11 seen?

12 A. I was there near the door. We were afraid -- there was air from the

13 outside so I got somewhere midway, halfway.

14 Q. Do you recall what Dusko Tadic was wearing on that occasion?

15 A. I remember that he had come on a motor bike. He had a band on his

16 head. He was a little unshaven. He had a beard, a small beard, and

17 he had a jacket full of pockets rather like pilot's jacket and

18 trousers, I think black, I am not 100 per cent sure, but I recognised

19 him. On his back he had an automatic rifle with a double chamber.

20 Q. After the period of time when you were held in the garage, where in

21 camp were you moved to? Where were you then held?

22 A. After that we were transferred to the white house.

23 Q. During the time you were in the white house were you interrogated for

24 a second time?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Were you beaten during that second interrogation?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. How severely or how badly were you beaten during the second

4 interrogation?

5 A. They beat me with all kinds of things, with a metal rod, with wires,

6 with soldiers' boots. He kicked me in the area of the kidneys. I had

7 to draw how I had escaped and how I had got there. Then they wanted

8 to know where I had hidden my gun and I said I did not know, most of

9 us fled this way. I said I did not know, and they beat me and beat

10 me, and then there was old judge, a policeman, from Banja Luka. He

11 begged me to admit so that I could be returned home. I said I did not

12 know, I did not know, kill me rather.

13 Q. In what part of the white house were you held, in which room?

14 A. The corridor, along the corridor, the second room to the right.

15 Q. Were there other prisoners in that room with you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you know approximately how many?

18 A. In my room there were just 158 people. In another room it was not so

19 full as it was in my room. Everyone had a bit of space.

20 Q. When you say 158, how do you know that number so precisely?

21 A. We had to count, so as to know which one of us would go either for

22 exchange or for interrogation. You never knew when they would come

23 for you. Mostly there were five or six of us. We repeated. One would

24 count and then another one would repeat, everything is OK, 158 men.

25 For a couple of nights, five or six people would be missing, nobody

1 knew why, and then at night they would come in a drunken state,

2 whoever was crouched, sleeping and if he touched you, you had to get

3 up without whispering or talking and go out quietly and we never knew

4 where they went.

5 Q. Did some prisoners return after groups were taken out?

6 A. Rarely.

7 Q. Did any of the rare prisoners who returned explain what had happened

8 to the others?

9 A. I am sorry. I did not understand that. Can you repeat, please?

10 Q. When it happened that someone returned after being called out with a

11 group, did you learn from that person what had happened to the others?

12 A. All kinds of things happened. At the other end, at the entrance to

13 the white house in a room to the left, there were many beaten up men.

14 They were intellectuals, teachers, doctors, journalists, all kinds of

15 people were there, and they had a hard time. Some of them were beaten

16 to death. It was hard.

17 Q. What was the condition of prisoners in your room?

18 A. The conditions were very, very poor. Some nights, five or six Serbs

19 would come in bearing a Muslim flag, put it in the middle of the room,

20 so that each one of us inmates had to spit at our Muslim flag, and to

21 swear that we would never be Muslims, that we would be Serbs and all

22 kinds of things. Then they would beat us on the head. You would

23 never know what would happen at night. We could not sleep. You could

24 not feel normally. He hit me with a knife. He asked me where my gun

25 was. I said, "I do not know". Then he would kick me in the chin. It

1 was terrible. Every night, five or six times they would come and beat

2 us.

3 Q. Were prisoners in your room forced to beat each other?

4 A. Rarely did inmates who were taken out for interrogation for a month,

5 10, 12 days, then they would come back in the day time after

6 interrogation, and in the evenings when they did not come back from

7 interrogation, then some soldiers would barge in who were guards in

8 the camp, they were drunk, and you do not know what could happen.

9 They would suddenly barge in and hit us on the head, and a

10 relative of mine, Ramasan Sovada(?), he was fat. They put him in the

11 middle, two or three soldiers on each side beating him with all kinds

12 of things until he lost consciousness, and then he cried out. You

13 just could not bear it and you could not be at peace to sleep. It was

14 horrible.

15 Q. Did you remain in the white house until the time came for your

16 transfer to Manjaca?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were you and other prisoners ordered to clean the white house before

19 you were transferred?

20 A. Yes, I cleaned it and another two, one from Kozarusa and another one

21 from Prijedor, we had to clean it up. The guard would order us where

22 to go. There was a small room at the end of the corridor, some kind

23 of a canteen. Then we had to go to the hangar. It was flooded. The

24 toilet, the sewage was blocked, and it was filthy. All the filth was

25 floating. We had to take water from the tap and go outside the white

1 house and clean each of the rooms.

2 At the approach to the white house, the first room to the left

3 was a small room. It was full of blood and one did not know how to

4 remove the blood from the walls and the floor. When we had done that,

5 then we said we had finished. We sat on the grass behind the white

6 house, and they read out the groups A, B, C, D, where they were going.

7 We did not know where we would be going. They said some would be

8 going for exchange, some to Trnopolje, some home.

9 Then our group from the white house, we were in the yard, we

10 were transferred to the hangar. Upstairs to the right there was a

11 large room and we waited there. Afterwards, they came for us and then

12 we were lined up in the hangar and they lined us up, those for

13 Trnopolje, those for exchange, but nobody mentioned Manjaca.

14 Q. By the time you were transferred, how many prisoners were left in

15 your room?

16 A. There were only eight prisoners in my room left and 150 disappeared.

17 If only the world -- I do not know what happened, if it had not

18 happened on time, who knows when my turn would have come.

19 Q. During the time you were in the white house, did you see Dusko Tadic?

20 A. Yes, I saw Dusko Tadic twice.

21 Q. Where were you when you saw him?

22 A. I was in the corner next to the wall at the entrance to the next

23 room. I was crouching in the corner. Dusko Tadic was in the

24 corridor. The door was closed. I saw him twice.

25 Q. You say the door was closed?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is it possible to see through a portion of that door?

3 A. It is possible.

4 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, may I have this photograph marked as Exhibit

5 240, I believe?

6 JUDGE STEPHEN: Will the roof come off the white house?

7 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour, and the camera is also set up for it. Mr.

8 Deomic, do you recognise what is shown in that photograph?

9 A. I recognise to the right my room where I was while I was there.

10 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would tender this photograph as Exhibit 240

11 and ask that 22/22 be called on the screen.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to 240?

13 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 240 will be admitted.

15 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Deomic, does the photograph now on the screen show the

16 door to your room in the white house, the second room on the right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Is a portion of that door at the bottom solid and a bigger portion on

19 the upper part made of glass?

20 A. The door was glassed in. I was here, next to the corner, to the

21 right, when you enter to the right.

22 Q. Thank you. Mr. Deomic, I am going to ask you -- first of all, I will

23 ask the technician if he can assist us with the camera -- in just a

24 moment to stand up and point out some places in the white house. You

25 will not be able to speak to us when you do so, but if you could take

1 that pointer with you?

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, there was at least last week we had an

3 extension cord on this microphone. I think he can stand here.

4 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Deomic, if you want to respond to any question, you will

5 be able to speak in the microphone to your left which is on the table

6 next to you. So first, sir, can you point out where your room was?

7 A. A6.

8 Q. Can you show us where you were when you saw Dusko Tadic?

9 A. The corner here.

10 Q. Can you show us where Dusko Tadic was when you saw him?

11 A. Here.

12 Q. Thank you, sir. You can take your seat. Mr. Deomic, are you able to

13 recall all the details of the times, the two times, when you saw Dusko

14 Tadic in the white house?

15 A. It is difficult for me to say whether I am ever sure 100 per cent

16 that I know something, but I am certain 100 per cent that I saw him

17 twice. He came to the corridor. There was a soldier with him. I do

18 not know that one. He looked into the room A4. He cast a glance. He

19 looked around and then he slowly turned around towards our room. I

20 crouched down and hid myself so he would not see me. I do not know

21 what he was looking for, why he had come, but I cannot remember 100

22 per cent the details. But I am sure that I saw him, that it was he.

23 Q. You have kept a recollection of seeing Dusko Tadic in the white house

24 to this day?

25 A. I remember 100 per cent, but I cannot remember the details, but I

1 know he was there. I saw him twice in the white house 100 per cent,

2 100 per cent. Half his face I saw, and I am 100 per cent sure that I

3 saw it was him, but I cannot remember in detail whether I was wrong or

4 not, but I am sure I saw him twice.

5 Q. Mr. Deomic, can you look carefully around the courtroom, please, and

6 tell us if Dusko Tadic is in court today and, if so, point him out?

7 A. Dusko Tadic, yes, that is he.

8 Q. Where is he sitting, can you describe where he is sitting?

9 A. He is sitting in the middle over there, next to the wall.

10 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, may the record reflect the identification of the

11 accused?

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes. The record will reflect the identification of

13 the accused. He has pointed, of course, to Mr. Tadic but there are

14 four people over there.

15 MR. TIEGER: OK. If there is any concern about that .....

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Ask him what he is wearing. Can you ask him what he

17 is wearing?

18 MR. TIEGER: I was just about to do that, your Honour. Mr. Deomic, can you

19 tell us what Mr. Tadic is wearing?

20 A. Now?

21 Q. Yes. Can you describe what he is wearing?

22 A. Can I get up?

23 Q. Yes, if you need to see.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, sir, if you need to see, yes.

25 THE WITNESS: He is wearing a suit, a green and white shirt, and a

1 coloured tie, a purple-ish, blue-ish green.

2 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. Deomic.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The record will reflect that the witness identified

4 the accused.

5 MR. TIEGER: Thank you. Nothing further, your Honour.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Cross-examination, Mr. Kay?

7 Cross-examined by MR. KAY

8 Q. Mr. Deomic, did you live in Kozarac?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Have you ever lived in Kozarac?

11 A. No, I lived in Kamicani.

12 Q. When you were in work did you work in Kozarac?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What work did you do in Kozarac?

15 A. I worked for Dedo Turkanovic. I was reconstructing his summer

16 garden, the restaurant and the coffee bar and the stage,

17 reconstructing things, tables and things like that. Then in Kolotur

18 in the restaurant, doing the outside walls of the restaurant.

19 Q. So am I right in saying then that your work in Kozarac has been of

20 the nature of two building jobs in that town?

21 A. That is the same company, the same men, but in two different, on two

22 different sites.

23 Q. Because what I have to suggest to you is this, that you did not know

24 Dusko Tadic?

25 A. I did. Oh, I did.

1 Q. That you did not spend any time with Dusko Tadic?

2 A. I was sitting at the same table with Dusko Tadic in Kozarac, in

3 Basta. He was looking for a man who would help him to build this

4 small house with the coffee bar. I was very busy because I had a lot

5 of work already, so nothing came out of it. Then he had to look for

6 other builders and I went on with my work in the summer garden in

7 Basta.

8 Q. So that the one occasion that you say he spoke to you in recent times

9 would have been to ask you to do some work?

10 A. Well, I do not know how to put it. He was looking for somebody to

11 build it for him. We were at the same table. There was Dedo there

12 and some of the Turkanovic brothers and his best colleague, Ferid's

13 brother-in-law, he was his best colleague, and he was a manager or ran

14 a shoemaker's shop and they told Tadic that I was an excellent, that I

15 was a master builder and that I said I was sorry, I was too busy and I

16 would not have time, I would be very glad to come and help and build

17 all that.

18 Q. Did you know Dusan Kuezevic?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Had you ever seen Dusko Tadic on a motor bike before?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You had never seen him in Kozarac on a motor bike?

23 A. No, never before.

24 Q. So let us go to that time that you say you saw Dusko Tadic in

25 Omarska. You said that he was ----

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. --- riding a motor bike?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you see him arrive on a motor bike in Omarska?

5 A. He was riding a motor bike, but it was not his. The motor bike

6 belonged to another person.

7 Q. Did you know whose motor bike it was?

8 A. Who knows? No, I do not, no, but that motor bike was stolen.

9 Q. So how do you know it was not his motor bike?

10 A. I know what every inhabitant in Kozarac had, what kind of a motor

11 bike, what kind of a vehicle, what car, everything that everybody had.

12 Q. If we could just look at those photographs again of 239A, B and the

13 interior photograph which is 239B, please? Thank you. Is it on the

14 screen? If it can be put on the monitor, please. Do you see the van

15 in the photograph?

16 A. I do.

17 Q. You refer to him as being near that van when you say you saw him?

18 A. I did not quite understand that? He was next to the van. The guard

19 stopped him and kept him there and I was here, because this is here

20 now. It was about a metre 20 away from the wall and I was standing

21 here where these things are now. So one had a semicircle open, a

22 semicircular view when the door was opened.

23 Q. Was the van there when you saw him?

24 A. Yes, he was by the van when he came from the direction of Omarska

25 towards the camp, towards our camp.

1 Q. Was your door usually locked to that room?

2 A. Sometimes. In the beginning it was closed for a few days until

3 things were settled with some soldiers somewhere, and then they asked

4 to open the door so that we could breathe some air and things like

5 that.

6 Q. On this day you say that the door to the garage was open?

7 A. Yes, the door was open.

8 Q. You did not actually see Dusko Tadic do anything there. Can you give

9 us any details of anything that he did?

10 A. I cannot of course invent anything. I can only say how it was as he

11 was coming slowly on the motor bike, and I saw him there, to the guard

12 and the guard halted him. The van had the door opened and the guard

13 jumped out and halted him. Then I backed away towards other people,

14 let them breathe some air and I wanted to get as far inside as I

15 could.

16 Q. Can you perhaps indicate to us where the motor bike stopped?

17 A. Here where there is this truck and this puddle, where the water is,

18 well, behind that, behind this puddle, that is where he stopped. That

19 is why I remember it because there were several days when there was

20 rain and that was the puddle after that rain and the van was outside

21 this water in the drive.

22 Q. This photograph was taken at the time, was it? Perhaps you cannot

23 answer that. Can I go to the next occasion that you say you saw him

24 which was at the white house?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. You were in the room that you have pointed out to us which is the

2 second room on the right-hand side?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. On the first occasion that you saw him, how many other people were in

5 the room with you?

6 A. Approximately 152, 53, something like that.

7 Q. And ----

8 A. I cannot remember 100 per cent but it is not 158. They were already

9 leaving and God knows where they went.

10 Q. This is a small room?

11 A. No, not really. To the right and to the left were large rooms and in

12 front in the back they were small rooms.

13 Q. A room of this size you would not normally expect to find a 150

14 people in, would you?

15 A. Small rooms 150 people, incredible, no. It is only possible if they

16 stand, but from the outside the guards do not allow it. Everybody's

17 head had to be down, not only head, not even anyone's fingers could

18 stick out above the window level.

19 Q. Were you sitting down there in the corner?

20 A. In the corner, yes, sitting.

21 Q. Were the other people in the room sitting as well or were any of them

22 standing up?

23 A. They were all sitting down.

24 Q. Were you in that same position the second time that you say you saw

25 Dusko Tadic in the white house?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were you sitting down again?

3 A. Before the departure to Manjaca my place was in the corner to the

4 right I never moved from there all the time.

5 Q. On this second occasion were the numbers in the room the same?

6 A. There were less.

7 Q. About how many were in the room at this time?

8 A. Well, as a matter of fact, I cannot remember the second time how many

9 people were there. There were less, but I cannot remember how many

10 and we did count them. At any time when the guards were not behind

11 the glass door or the window we counted them all and the number was

12 decreasing. How many I cannot remember, but there were less.

13 Q. Were there still very many people in the room, far too many than

14 there should have been?

15 A. More than should have been, no, but less and less.

16 Q. But was the room crammed with people?

17 A. No. In the beginning in the white house the second door to the

18 right, that small room, yes, at the beginning of the first day.

19 Q. Can you describe what Mr. Tadic looked like when you saw him, how he

20 was dressed?

21 A. I cannot, no, I cannot remember details, but I am 100 per cent sure

22 that I saw Tadic twice in the corridor, but the details I cannot

23 recall those.

24 Q. Can you remember what clothes he was wearing?

25 A. No way, no, I cannot remember.

1 Q. Do you remember making a statement to the investigators in this case

2 sometime ago?

3 A. I gave a statement that I had seen him twice 100 per cent, but I

4 cannot remember the details what he looked like, otherwise it was when

5 you see him once and get away from his view, hide so that he does not

6 notice you, so that nobody raises his head or finger or hand. We had

7 to be completely still, not a hair was allowed to move on our heads,

8 it was that terrible.

9 Q. Do you remember saying he wore a blue jacket?

10 A. Yes, from the first garage. I am not positive.

11 Q. When you were in the white house and sitting down in the corner, can

12 you remember who else was sitting around near you at that time?

13 A. Next to me was a Prijedor journalist. Then after the journalist I

14 think somebody I did not know sat next to him, and then my relatives

15 were over there beneath the window, all family of mine, all my kin, my

16 relatives, and then there were people I did not know. They were from

17 Prijedor and from Rakovcani. They were from all over and next to me

18 was this Schipetar who had a sweet shop in Prijedor, who owned a sweet

19 shop in Prijedor.

20 Q. Were they with you when you saw Mr. Tadic?

21 A. Yes, they were there.

22 Q. You see, what I suggest to you is that you did not see Mr. Tadic in

23 Omarska at all?

24 A. I did. I saw him and I confirm it 100 per cent. I did see him, I

25 guarantee.

1 MR. KAY: No further questions, your Honour.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger?

3 MR. TIEGER: One moment your Honour. No additional questions, your

4 Honour.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I have a few questions, sir. I believe you

6 testified that you were held at Benkovac for three days and two

7 nights, is that correct?

8 A. Three days and two nights.

9 Q. Then you were taken to Omarska?

10 A. I am sorry, I did not quite understand the question. Could you

11 please repeat it?

12 Q. Were you taken to Omarska after those three days and two nights?

13 A. After that I was taken to Omarska.

14 Q. You were taken to Benkovac on -- do you recall what your testimony

15 was? Was it on the second or third day after the attack?

16 A. The second day it was on. The third day we were already captured.

17 Q. So then you would have arrived at Omarska around, if I have looked at

18 this calendar correctly, May 26th or May 27th, is that right?

19 A. No.

20 Q. No. OK. Do you remember the date that you arrived at Omarska?

21 A. I know it was towards the end of May.

22 Q. OK.

23 A. I know it was towards the end of May.

24 Q. That is fine. Then you were taken to the garage when you arrived at

25 Omarska and you remained there for four weeks, is that correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Then when you saw Mr. Tadic do you remember at what point that was

3 during those four weeks, was it the first week, the second week, the

4 third week or the fourth week, if you can recall?

5 A. I remember it was after the interrogation, some five or six days

6 later.

7 Q. You were interrogated for three weeks, is that correct?

8 A. Well, I am not absolutely positive to remember days and nights,

9 minutes, seconds. With all that horror, with all that pressure, with

10 all the torture one cannot remember. It is impossible to say the

11 minute or the second when something happened, but I know it was after

12 the interrogation that I saw him.

13 Q. That would have been sometime in June, I suppose, if my understanding

14 of the dates is correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Then how long after -- well, then after four weeks at Omarska you

17 were then taken to the white house, is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. When did you leave Omarska?

20 A. It was the month of August. I cannot again remember the day.

21 Q. How long after you were taken to the white house did you see Mr.

22 Tadic, the first time.

23 A. In the white house?

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. I cannot remember those days. I cannot remember them.

1 Q. How long were you in the white house?

2 A. I stayed there until August, until I left to Manjaca.

3 Q. So, it may have been in July or August or late June? If you do not

4 recall that is fine.

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you testify that you helped Mr. Tadic build his house or the top

7 part of his house or did you testify that he had wanted you to help

8 him build the house but that you were busy?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. It was the latter, that he wanted you to help him build his house and

11 you were busy, is that what you testified to?

12 A. He was looking for people who would build it, but they were very busy

13 and he came to the place where I worked, where I was doing this

14 reconstruction of this coffee bar, of the restaurant, and they

15 explained to him that I was really a very good builder, a real master

16 builder, and he said he needed one like that to help him build his

17 coffee bar. I told him I could not, I was too busy, if he could wait

18 I could take it up later.

19 Q. So then you did not help him build his house?

20 A. I was helping a relative which was putting a roof on his house.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Thank you. Mr. Tieger, do you have

22 additional questions?

23 MR. TIEGER: No, your Honour.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?

25 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mr. Deomic being

2 permanently excused?

3 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Deomic, you are permanently excused. You may

5 leave, sir. You are free to leave. You are permanently excused.

6 Thank you for coming. You may leave.

7 THE WITNESS: Not at all.

8 (The witness withdrew)

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, it is 20 minutes after 5. Rather than

10 call the next witness there are a couple of matters the Chamber wanted

11 to talk to counsel about. First, I wanted to remind you that the

12 Prosecutor is to file its response to the Defence's motion regarding

13 the photograph ID spread, but I believe that you have that.

14 MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, I have some advanced copies. The official copy

15 has been filed with the Registrar but I have some advanced copies for

16 the Bench here.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: If the Usher will pick those up we will take the

18 advance copies. Have you given one of those advance copies to Mr.

19 Wladimiroff?

20 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, the Defence has already been served, your Honour.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We had said that we would hear argument on this

22 matter tomorrow afternoon. How long do you anticipate you will need,

23 Mr. Wladimiroff, to present your position?

24 MR. WLADIMIROFF: It may depend, your Honour, on the admissibility of

25 having Dr. Wagenaar available to testify, if your Court will accept

1 that.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: If we do not hear his testimony you have presented

3 your position, but you may of course present it once again. How long

4 would that need?

5 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Then I will have to cover things that I expect him to

6 tell you.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: If we say that we do not want to hear him, you are

8 going to tell us what he is going to say?

9 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I will try to do so, yes, and that will take a little bit

10 more time.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: How long would it take if we allowed him to testify?

12 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I think for him to testify will take about half an hour,

13 that is what I think.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. If you tell us what he is going to testify

15 about, that will take half an hour too or will there be

16 cross-examination? OK, half an hour for Dr. Wagenaar.

17 MR. WLADIMIROFF: If he is available. I have been advised that he arrived

18 today back home from abroad and he will call me tonight to tell me

19 whether he is available tomorrow.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Then maybe half an hour for your argument for

21 yourself?

22 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Who will present argument for the Prosecutor?

24 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, since it is taking the form of a responsive

25 presentation, I would estimate that half an hour or so is probably an

1 appropriate length of time for us as well, again, with the caveat that

2 it is not entirely clear to me what the Defence intends to present.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I see in your submission, Mr. Tieger, you have cited

4 some cases. Have you provided the Chamber with copies of those? If

5 not, would you?

6 MR. TIEGER: If they have not been provided, your Honour, they will be.

7 MR. WLADIMIROFF: May the Defence have copies of that too?

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Provide the Defence as well. I do not know what the

9 Defence's library is like, but ours is not what it should be. So if

10 you are giving them to us give them to the Defence as well, please.

11 So maybe two hours. Is there anything else?

12 MR. TIEGER: I guess the only remaining question, your Honour, is how to

13 balance the time we will devote tomorrow to the motion against the

14 witnesses who are here. I think one of the primary concerns is that

15 we do not end up in a position with a witness who is in the middle of

16 his testimony.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We had planned on hearing argument in the afternoon,

18 tomorrow afternoon. I am planning on two hours and so if we start at

19 2.30 then we would continue. Two hours, that is 4.30. You have a

20 witness here to offer in the morning, do you not?

21 MR. TIEGER: Yes, we do.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So you have a witness for how much time now? You

23 would need three and a half, a witness to cover maybe two and a half,

24 maybe three hours?

25 MR. TIEGER: Yes. I do not have concerns about the morning session at

1 all, but there are two witnesses here. My only concern is whether we

2 begin -- I think it is just something we will have to take up at the

3 time. I am just raising the issue now.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You have two witnesses and you probably want to know

5 whether you should release the other witness?

6 MR. TIEGER: That is one solution.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I cannot tell you that because the next witness will

8 take how long? Do you estimate two to three hours? Mr. Niemann

9 handled a witness in 20 minutes and he had listed the time as two to

10 three hours.

11 MR. TIEGER: I do not intend to borrow Mr. Niemann's time, your Honour!

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No. I was suggesting that maybe you do the same

13 thing. Even if you do an hour then you can do the other witness. I

14 would suggest that you have both witnesses here, I would suggest out

15 abundance of caution.

16 MR. TIEGER: Sure and we would intend to. I am only raising the issue now

17 in case we get to a point where it is not entirely clear whether we

18 should proceed with the second witness or not.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You will have two witnesses here. That is enough

20 time for three and a half hours, if we are going to spend two hours,

21 is that correct? You will need three and a half hours for two

22 witnesses or will you need maybe a third witness?

23 MR. TIEGER: No. Maybe I am not making my concerns clear. I think that

24 there is certainly a possibility that we are -- I am not concerned

25 about not having a third witness here. I do not think we will have so

1 much time left over that there will be a problem with wasted Court

2 time. I am just concerned about the possibility that we will have to

3 make a decision before calling the second witness, gauging the

4 projected amount of time he will testify or not.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We want to hear as many witnesses as possible. We

6 have three and a half hours, so we will hear one witness if it takes

7 three and a half hours, two witnesses, three witnesses, and if that is

8 part heard we will hear them because we want to hear as many witnesses

9 as possible. Do you understand?

10 MR. TIEGER: It sounds like the issue is raised here, so that is a

11 concern, would want to truncate a witness's testimony for a two and a

12 half to a three-week period?

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I do not know. We will play it by ear. You have

14 enough witnesses here to use up three and a half hours, OK, and then

15 we will see. I just do not want us to be sitting here without a

16 witness. OK? Will you have witnesses here to spend three and a half

17 hours?

18 MR. TIEGER: We will have two witnesses here, your Honour.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I do not know how long they are going to take, that

20 is the problem, Mr. Tieger. All I can say is you have three and a

21 half hours tomorrow, use it, please. OK? Mr. Wladimiroff, you will

22 have your decision on your protective measures tomorrow. The other

23 matter I have been asked to ask you, Mr. Wladimiroff, regarding video

24 conferencing where you would propose to offer the witnesses, you need

25 the not tell me at this time, but that is a concern that the technical

1 people need to know, because it has to do with the equipment that is

2 necessary. I did not speak with you, Miss Featherstone about this.

3 Perhaps you could spend a moment with Mr. Wladimiroff to see if you

4 can discuss this and then we will give that information to the

5 appropriate person.

6 MR. WLADIMIROFF: We have been discussing this morning with the technical

7 unit and I am aware we have to solve this problem.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. We will then adjourn until tomorrow at

9 10 o'clock.

10 (5.30 p.m.)

11 (The court adjourned until the following day).

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