Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3631




4 Thursday, 18th July 1996

5 (10.55 a.m.)

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, are you ready to proceed? Did we not

7 finish with the cross-examination yesterday?

8 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. Miss Hollis is going to do it.


10 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour. We would call Edin Mrkalj.

11 EDIN MRKALJ, called.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I feel we should be doing something. Is there

13 anything anyone would like to talk about? Mr. Orie, welcome.

14 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, perhaps there is a matter I might mention -- I

15 can do it later.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you take the oath that is being given to

17 you, please?

18 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak the

19 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

20 (The witness was sworn)

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated.

22 Examined by MISS HOLLIS

23 Q. Sir, would you please state your name?

24 A. My name is Edin Mrkalj.

25 Q. What is your date of birth?

Page 3632

1 A. I was born on 13th June 1965 in the village of Biscani in the

2 municipality of Prijedor.

3 Q. Did you live in Biscani until you were 15 and then move to Sarajevo?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you move back to the village of Biscani in January of 1988?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. After you moved back to Biscani how long did you live there?

8 A. After I returned there I lived there until 30th -- 31st of May 1992.

9 Q. How many people live in Biscani?

10 A. About 3,000.

11 Q. Did you know many of the people who lived there?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What was the ethnic composition of that village?

14 A. Muslim, 100 per cent.

15 Q. If the witness could be provided with Prosecution Exhibit 79, please?

16 Sir, if you could take a moment to look at that map and orient

17 yourself and then if that map could be placed on the overhead

18 projector, please?

19 A. Yes, I did orient myself.

20 Q. Sir, if you could use the pointer and if you could for the Court

21 point to where the village of Biscani is located on that map?

22 A. The village is here, in this area. This is my village, Biscani.

23 Q. If we could have a closer view of that, please? Could you point

24 again to Biscani?

25 A. Here it is, the area of Biscani.

Page 3633

1 Q. How far was Biscani from the town of Prijedor?

2 A. Well, the first houses are some three kilometres away from Biscani.

3 So, my village is some three kilometres away from the first hamlet.

4 Q. Of the town of Prijedor?

5 A. Yes, the town of Prijedor.

6 Q. The village of Hambarine, how close to Biscani was the village of

7 Hambarine?

8 A. About five kilometres.

9 JUDGE STEPHEN: Can I ask you a question about this Exhibit that we have

10 so often looked at? I do not know whether you are able to respond to

11 it, but the little squares that are shown there I had assumed to be

12 actual representation of houses, but the numbers that we have been

13 getting of people, inhabitants, suggests that they are not, that there

14 are far more houses than appear. Do you happen to know whether that

15 is so or not? Can we regard this map as accurately representing

16 dwellings or merely as being representational?

17 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, my understanding is that it is a

18 representation. I do not know if it is intended to represent

19 individual homes. We can certainly find that out for you, if you

20 wish.

21 JUDGE STEPHEN: That would be useful, thank you.

22 MISS HOLLIS (To the witness): If you could show us, please, on this map

23 where Hambarine is?

24 A. Yes. This area here.

25 Q. The village of Rizvanovici is where?

Page 3634

1 A. You see it.

2 Q. Could you point to that again, please? That is how far from Biscani?

3 A. It is the first village next to Biscani, so in the direction of the

4 village of Volar. To the left is the village of Rizvanovici and to

5 the right the village of Biscani, so there is only a street separating

6 them.

7 Q. Rakovcani that is shown on this map, how far is that from Biscani?

8 A. About three kilometres.

9 Q. Is this entire area referred to in general as Brdo?

10 A. Yes, this whole area is called Brdo.

11 Q. To your knowledge, what was the ethnic composition of that area?

12 A. The ethnic composition was Muslim, 100 per cent.

13 Q. Sir, what was your previous occupation?

14 A. I was a policeman in charge of security.

15 Q. Did you train in Sarajevo at the school of internal affairs?

16 A. Yes, I graduated from the school in Sarajevo, the 11th class which is

17 79/84, the class of 79/84.

18 Q. Was the first job as a policeman at the federal SUP in Belgrade?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What years did you work there?

21 A. From 1984, that is since I graduated until 31st December 1987.

22 Q. Where was the headquarters of the federal SUP?

23 A. The headquarters were in the Kneza Mihajla Street 92, and the

24 headquarters of my command was in Sarajevska Street.

25 Q. This was in Belgrade?

Page 3635

1 A. Yes, in Belgrade.

2 Q. What were your duties at the federal SUP?

3 A. I was in charge of the security of diplomatic missions of foreign

4 states and vital facilities of vital interest to our former common

5 state.

6 Q. Did the federal SUP have special units?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What were their jobs?

9 A. Those were special units for protection against sabotage and

10 subversion activities or in case of major unrest, such as in Kosovo,

11 for instance. When it happened in Kosovo, those units were sent

12 there.

13 Q. What was the difference between the federal SUP and the SUPs at the

14 Republic level?

15 A. The Republic SUP had the jurisdiction over the territory of a

16 Republic, for instance, of a Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, whereas

17 the federal SUP had under its jurisdiction the entire territory of our

18 former common state of Yugoslavia.

19 Q. During the years that you worked at the federal SUP, did you become

20 familiar with the license plates used on the vehicles of the federal

21 SUP?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What was distinctive about those plates?

24 A. The plate number of federal SUP cars began with No. 9, for instance,

25 900.

Page 3636

1 Q. You indicated that you worked with the federal SUP in Belgrade until

2 the end of December 1987. Did you then return to Biscani and begin to

3 work as a policeman in Prijedor?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. How long did you work as a policeman in Prijedor?

6 A. I worked there until 10th April 1992.

7 Q. To your knowledge, did any police units wear blue camouflage

8 uniforms?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What kind of police units wore such uniforms?

11 A. Special federal SUP units.

12 Q. When you worked as a policeman in Prijedor, how many police stations

13 were there in the opstina?

14 A. There were four.

15 Q. Where were they located?

16 A. The central one was in Prijedor in Mose Pijade Street, No. 4, and

17 then we had their departments in Omarska, Kozarac and Ljubija. Those

18 were the departments, the divisions.

19 Q. Where did you work?

20 A. I was in the central station in Prijedor.

21 Q. What was the ethnic composition of the Prijedor police department

22 while you worked there?

23 A. Well, while I was there the majority of the policemen were Serbs.

24 Q. What were your duties in the police department in Prijedor?

25 A. Traffic and security.

Page 3637

1 Q. Were you later promoted into the criminal division?

2 A. Yes, in '91, but without any promotion.

3 Q. In 1992 while you were still working for the Prijedor police

4 department, who was the Chief of Police?

5 A. The Chief of Police was Hasan Talundzic.

6 Q. Sorry, the Chief of Police was Hasan Talundzic?

7 A. Talundzic.

8 Q. What was his ethnic group?

9 A. Muslim.

10 Q. In March 1992 do you recall getting a call from a Serbian friend who

11 wanted to talk to you urgently?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did that friend come to talk to you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How did you know this man?

16 A. We used to work together.

17 Q. Where did he work?

18 A. Belgrade.

19 Q. In what organisation or agency did he work there?

20 A. The federal SUP.

21 Q. What did he want to talk to you about?

22 A. He wanted to talk to me about the times ahead.

23 Q. What did he tell you?

24 A. He told me that members of his people would occupy the town, take

25 over the power in the municipality.

Page 3638

1 Q. When you say "members of his people", what people are you talking

2 about?

3 A. Of the Serb people.

4 Q. Did he tell you anything else about what was to happen?

5 A. That the territory of the municipality of Prijedor would be cleansed

6 of non-Serb population, and that was the first time I heard the word

7 "ethnic cleansing".

8 Q. Did he tell you anything about his being offered a job in Bosnia?

9 A. Yes, in a town.

10 Q. What kind of job had he been offered?

11 A. One of the executive jobs.

12 Q. In what agency or organisation?

13 A. The SUP.

14 Q. Did your friend ever tell you how he had received this information?

15 A. Well, he moved among people from whom he could learn quite a lot.

16 Q. What did you do with this information after you received it?

17 A. I decided to talk to the Chief of the Public Security Station in

18 Prijedor and transmit to him the information.

19 Q. What was his reaction to this information?

20 A. His reaction was the following: he said that was of no interest,

21 that we were -- that he was not interested, that that was not his

22 concern, that we were not for war and that nothing would come out of

23 it.

24 Q. In early April 1992, did you go to Belgrade to bring your daughter

25 back from the hospital there?

Page 3639

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Had you purchased an airline ticket so that you and your daughter

3 could travel back to Banja Luka on a commercial plane?

4 A. Yes, to come back from Belgrade.

5 Q. Were you able to bring your daughter back on a commercial aircraft?

6 A. No.

7 Q. While you were in Belgrade did you hear on television that all

8 commercial flights to Banja Luka had been cancelled?

9 A. Yes, I heard it on the Serbian television.

10 Q. Were you able to arrange a flight back on a military aircraft?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. While you were waiting for the flight, were you told that you had to

13 wait because soldiers were expected?

14 A. Yes, I was told that.

15 Q. While you were waiting for the flight did you see men in uniforms

16 coming to the area where you were waiting?

17 A. Yes, I saw them.

18 Q. What were these men wearing?

19 A. Well, they were in grey olive green uniforms of the former JNA.

20 Q. Did they have any type of insignia or other attachments to their

21 uniforms?

22 A. Some had white bands, ribbons, and some had red bands so that I could

23 divide them into two groups.

24 Q. Did they have weapons and gear with them?

25 A. Yes, they did.

Page 3640

1 Q. While you were waiting for that flight did you hear these men talking

2 amongst themselves?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. What did you hear them talk about?

5 A. They mentioned some incredible things. They talked about how they

6 would get rich quickly, about money, gold -- great time.

7 Q. Did they mention anything about where their destination was?

8 A. Some were talking about Mostar, others about Bihac.

9 Q. Did you recognise the accents or dialect of these men?

10 A. Yes, I did recognise it.

11 Q. What was it?

12 A. Well, the Serb dialect.

13 Q. What was the appearance of these men?

14 A. Well, they did not look like a normal army. They were unkempt,

15 disheveled. They simply did not look like a real, like a true army.

16 They were not disciplined.

17 Q. During this flight back to Banja Luka, was there equipment or

18 supplies on this military aircraft with you?

19 A. Yes, when we entered the weapons ----

20 Q. I am sorry, when you "entered the weapons"? Would you repeat that

21 answer, please?

22 A. Yes, the weapons were loaded.

23 Q. So there were boxes of weapons in the aircraft?

24 A. Yes, they loaded crates on one side, the entrance, they were already

25 there, but when we entered this space where we came in was close with

Page 3641

1 I do not know how many crates more.

2 Q. When you came back from this trip did you leave the Police Force?

3 A. Yes, for good.

4 Q. What did you tell the police department?

5 A. Well, I said I was taking a sick leave.

6 Q. After you had taken this sick leave, do you recall attending a police

7 meeting at the mining company building in Prijedor?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Was this meeting before or after the Serb takeover of Prijedor on

10 30th April?

11 A. After.

12 Q. Who called this meeting?

13 A. The Serb Crisis Committee.

14 Q. Was this meeting attended by Serb representatives and all the

15 non-Serb active duty policemen?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you recall the names of any of the Serb representatives at this

18 meeting?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What are the names you recall?

21 A. There were present Simo Drljaca, then they introduced him as a

22 minister and they said it was Kovacevic. I did not know him before.

23 There was Dule Jankovic there, Simo Miskovic.

24 Q. Simo Drljaca, if you know, at that time what was his position?

25 A. After the occupation of the town of Prijedor, he was appointed the

Page 3642

1 chief of the Serb station.

2 Q. The chief of the Serb police station?

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. Dule Jankovic, what was his position, if you know?

5 A. He was the commander of the station. He kept his previous post.

6 Q. Simo Miskovic, what was his position, if you know?

7 A. He was the SDS President, the President of the Serb Democratic Party

8 of the municipality of Prijedor.

9 Q. At this meeting what demands or requests were made of the non-Serb

10 police officers?

11 A. We were requested to sign a statement of loyalty, unreserved,

12 unconditional.

13 Q. Loyalty to whom?

14 A. Loyalty to the Serb side.

15 Q. Did you agree to sign this loyalty declaration?

16 A. No, never.

17 Q. In late May of 1992 did you witness any of the attacks on Hambarine

18 and other villages in that area?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 Q. What did you see?

21 A. I saw the shelling and I experienced the shelling of that area.

22 Q. What villages did you witness being shelled?

23 A. I could easily see Hambarine, Rizvanovici, part of Biscani,

24 Rakovcani.

25 Q. During this time that you saw this shelling of these villages, did

Page 3643

1 you see anything that appeared to be return fire from any of those

2 villages?

3 A. No, there was no return fire.

4 Q. Did you see any tanks involved in this operation?

5 A. Yes, I saw.

6 Q. During the attack and the shelling of this area, were the villages in

7 this area given an ultimatum to surrender weapons?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What type of weapons were to be surrendered?

10 A. The weapons of the Territorial Defence and the Reserve Police force

11 were to be surrendered.

12 Q. How was that ultimatum delivered?

13 A. By radio.

14 Q. Did the announcement say by whose authority the ultimatums were

15 given?

16 A. The Crisis Committee of the Serb municipality of Prijedor.

17 Q. After these ultimatums were given, do you recall being involved in

18 contacts that were made with a man called Captain Glusac about the

19 surrender of weapons?

20 A. It is Captain Glusac.

21 Q. Who was he?

22 A. He was a reserve Captain of the former JNA.

23 Q. If you know, what was his ethnic group?

24 A. Serb.

25 Q. Did you and others talk with him about the surrender of weapons?

Page 3644

1 A. They talked about it before me and I had the opportunity on two

2 occasions.

3 Q. What was his response?

4 A. Well, he said when we met for a second time that if our side begins

5 fire and if any Serb is wounded or killed, then he would be issued

6 orders to shell the area of our villages.

7 Q. Did the inhabitants of Biscani obey the ultimatum and surrender

8 weapons?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you later learn that Biscani had, nonetheless, been destroyed?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. On 31st May 1992 were you given an order to turn in your police

13 weapons the next day at the Prijedor police station?

14 A. Yes, on May 31st 1992.

15 Q. Who gave you that order?

16 A. The order was conveyed to me by Reserve policeman, Duro Knezevic. He

17 said that he was coming from the central station in Prijedor and that

18 I was to surrender, that I was to come to the station with my personal

19 weapons and gear.

20 Q. Did he indicate what would happen if you refused to obey that order?

21 A. Yes, I did ask that question, what would happen if I did not turn up,

22 and he replied, "Well, you know what happened to Hambarine when

23 policeman Aziz Aliskovic refused to surrender".

24 Q. What type of weapons did you have at this time?

25 A. I had official weapons, a pistol and a submachine gun.

Page 3645

1 Q. Did you go to the Prijedor police station on 1st June and surrender

2 your weapons?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Were you interrogated at the police station on that date?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. By whom?

7 A. I was interrogated by my former fellow policemen, inspectors.

8 Q. Do you recall the names of any of these people?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What were the names you recall?

11 A. In the chair of the inspector team was Mira Jankovic and there were

12 Gostimir Modic with her, Nenad Lakic, a person I did not know who had

13 allegedly come from Croatia and joined the ranks of the police, and

14 Nebojsa Tomcic.

15 Q. You indicated that these people were your colleagues. To your

16 information, what was their ethnic group?

17 A. They were all of Serb descent.

18 Q. Were you held at the police station overnight and then the next day,

19 2nd June, taken to Omarska camp?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How were you transported to Omarska on 2nd June?

22 A. I was taken there by a bus.

23 Q. Were any other detainees taken on that bus with you?

24 A. I was the only one on that bus.

25 Q. Were there other people on the bus?

Page 3646

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Who were these people?

3 A. They were members of the criminal investigation department of the

4 Serb police station of Prijedor.

5 Q. If you recall the names of any of these people, could you tell us who

6 was on the bus with you?

7 A. On that bus were Ranko Mijic, Zare Tejic, Nebojsa Tomcic, Nebojsa

8 Babic, Rade Knezevic, Zika Jovic, Ranko Bucalo. I do not know if I

9 mentioned Dragic Knezevic.

10 Q. On this trip from the Prijedor police station to the Omarska camp,

11 did you see any corpses along the route?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. Were these corpses arranged in any particular positions?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. How were they arranged?

16 A. The first thing I saw, I saw corpses in the shape of a cross. Then I

17 saw corpses, from that cross, two corpses. The head of one corpse was

18 next to another corpse and then there was an arm separated from the

19 body nearby. Then I saw a big cross made up of corpses.

20 Q. As you approached Omarska camp, do you recall seeing a fire about 300

21 metres from the camp?

22 A. Yes, I do remember the fire.

23 Q. Do you recall anything unusual or particular about the smoke from

24 that fire?

25 A. The special thing I remember is the smell that emanated from the fire

Page 3647

1 as we passed it and penetrated the bus.

2 Q. Later in Omarska camp did you ever smell a similar type smell?

3 A. Yes, I did. When I was together with Sekiric Ferid, his burnt hands,

4 his arms that were burnt, such an awful stench came, the same kind of

5 smell.

6 Q. How long were you held at the Omarska camp?

7 A. Until the camp was disbanded.

8 Q. Do you recall what month that was?

9 A. In early August.

10 Q. Did you know any of the other detainees at Omarska camp?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. What was the ethnic group of the detainees that you knew?

13 A. Muslims and Croats.

14 Q. Were any of the guards or camp leaders at Omarska people you had

15 known before coming to the camp?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. Who?

18 A. I had known the Commander of the camp. I knew personally one of the

19 shift commanders.

20 Q. Who was the Commander of the camp that you had known previously?

21 A. [No interpretation].

22 Q. I am sorry, I do not have a translation of that.

23 THE INTERPRETER: He said he did not say "commander" but "commandant" and

24 he asked if it was translated well. There is only one word in

25 English, "commander", but he is making a distinction between

Page 3648

1 "commander" and "commandant".

2 MISS HOLLIS: To your knowledge, who was the commandant of the camp, the

3 person that you had known before?

4 A. The first Commander was Kvocka Miroslav, the second was Meakic

5 Zeljko, the third one was Drago Prcac.

6 Q. How did you know these men from before?

7 A. They were members of the police station in Prijedor.

8 Q. Did you know a man by the name of Drago Meakic before you came to the

9 camp?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. How did you know him?

12 A. I knew him because he worked as an inspector in the criminal

13 department until 1991 when he retired and joined the Serb police

14 station in Prijedor.

15 Q. To your knowledge, were Drago Meakic and Zeljko Meakic related?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What was the relationship?

18 A. Drago Meakic is the uncle of Zeljko Meakic.

19 Q. You indicated that you had previously known one of the shift

20 commanders at Omarska, who was that?

21 A. It was Mladjo Radic, nickname "Krkan", the leader of the shift No. 3.

22 Q. Mladjo Radic and Zeljko Meakic, to your knowledge, were of what

23 ethnic group?

24 A. Serbs.

25 Q. When you first arrived at the camp of Omarska for the first few days

Page 3649

1 where were you held?

2 A. I was held in the repair building.

3 Q. If you could take the pointer, please, and from your seat if you

4 could point to the building you refer to as the repair building?

5 A. Yes. This is the building.

6 Q. So you are pointing to the long red building on the model?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. How long were you held in that repair building?

9 A. I do not know exactly the total number of days, but I was there the

10 first time in a room by the staircase at the entrance. I was there

11 until 6th, until 6th June 1992.

12 Q. So this room by the staircase, this is on the ground floor or was

13 this on the first floor?

14 A. On the ground floor.

15 Q. Where were you taken to from that building?

16 A. After one of a number of investigations I was taken to the pista.

17 Q. When you say "the pista" would you point to the area you are

18 referring to?

19 A. I will. This area between the repair building and, as we called it,

20 administration building. It is this area that I am pointing now.

21 Q. How long were you held on the pista?

22 A. I spent most of the time there on the pista, maybe about 40 days. I

23 am not sure exactly.

24 Q. While you were on the pista were there concrete containers on both

25 sides of the pista area between the repair building and the

Page 3650

1 administration building?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Were these containers laid so that they were touching against each

4 other or was there space between these containers?

5 A. There was space between the containers, yes.

6 Q. While you were on the pista were you ever forced to lie on your

7 stomach for periods of time?

8 A. Depending on the situation but, yes, we were forced to lie on our

9 stomach every day.

10 Q. While you would lie on your stomach would you ever look around to see

11 what was happening?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. With these containers on both sides of the pista as you lay on your

14 stomach were you able to see through the spaces between the

15 containers?

16 A. Yes, they were no hindrance to viewing the area.

17 Q. Were you able to see above the containers to see people?

18 A. Well, certainly -- why not?

19 MISS HOLLIS: If I could have Prosecution Exhibit 246, please, and have

20 that provided to the witness?

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will continue until 1 o'clock since we started

22 late, gentlemen, and Miss Hollis -- excuse me.

23 MISS HOLLIS: Until 1 o'clock?

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Normally we would recess at 11.30, but see did not

25 start until five minutes to 11.00 -- unless I hear to the contrary

Page 3651

1 from someone.

2 MISS HOLLIS: Could that photograph be placed on the overhead projector,

3 please? (To the witness): As you look at that photograph, those

4 containers in the photograph, are those the containers that you were

5 speaking of earlier, the concrete containers?

6 A. Yes, those are the containers.

7 Q. As you see the spacing in this photograph, was that the type of

8 spacing that was between those containers when you were in the camp?

9 A. There was larger spacing.

10 Q. As you look at the plants in those containers, is that about the

11 height of the plants when you were on the pista in the camp?

12 A. They were smaller plants.

13 Q. So they were taller in height?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. The people in this photograph, do you recognise either of those two

16 people?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. Could you tell us who those people are and point to the person as you

19 say the name?

20 A. This is Simo Drljaca. This is Nada Balaban.

21 Q. How did you know ----

22 A. Just one moment, please. Vokic Radovan there can be seen only a

23 little bit, only a part of Vokic Radovan, a policeman.

24 Q. Could you point to -- that is the person there. How did you know

25 Nada Balaban?

Page 3652

1 A. She was the English teacher.

2 Q. If that photo could be returned to the Registry, please? While were

3 you at Omarska camp, were you ever in the white house there?

4 A. Yes, I was.

5 Q. How long were you in the white house?

6 A. I spent one night there.

7 Q. What room were you kept in that night?

8 A. As you enter the white house, it was on the left side, the second

9 door to the left.

10 Q. What was the condition of that room while you were in it?

11 A. It was horrible.

12 Q. What do you mean?

13 A. It was a small room. There were more than 20 people there. The

14 smell in the room itself, blood, the bad smell, the urine. The people

15 who had been lying there for a long time, they were in a very, very

16 bad state. One of the men had started rotting. Esad Talic, doctor,

17 the doctor, had performed surgery on him. I will never, never forget

18 that.

19 Q. Did you know any of the men in that room?

20 A. Yes, I did. I recognised one man I had known him quite well, Ferid

21 Sekiric.

22 Q. What was his condition?

23 A. He was in a very bad condition. He had five bullets inside his body.

24 Serbian doctors had taken out four of those bullets but one was left

25 in his body. So he was in a very, very bad condition.

Page 3653

1 Q. What was his ethnic group?

2 A. Muslim.

3 Q. After you had spent some 40 days on the pista where were you taken to

4 then?

5 A. After 40 days on the pista we were taken to the repair building.

6 Q. Before I ask that question, I would ask you, do you know Dule Tadic?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. When did you first meet him?

9 A. I met him in 1991, early 1991.

10 Q. How did you meet him?

11 A. In Prijedor.

12 Q. In what circumstance did you meet him?

13 A. We had a work meeting. It was held once a month usually on the

14 occasion of the visit by the policemen from individual stations. So

15 we used the opportunity and we would come an hour or two earlier; we

16 would have a chat or a drink or two before the meeting. On that

17 occasion I met Dusko Tadic through a friend of his.

18 Q. Who was that friend who introduced you?

19 A. My co-worker.

20 Q. What is his name?

21 A. Emir Karabasic.

22 Q. When Emir Karabasic introduced Dusko Tadic to you, how did he

23 introduce him?

24 A. As a good friend of his.

25 Q. This first occasion that you were with Dusko Tadic, how long did that

Page 3654

1 occasion last?

2 A. We sat together for over an hour, roughly.

3 Q. After that initial introduction did you ever see Dusko Tadic again?

4 A. Yes, yes, several times.

5 Q. Where would you see him?

6 A. In Prijedor.

7 Q. Did you ever see him any place other than Prijedor?

8 A. Yes, I saw him once in Kozarac. We were in the same cafe.

9 Q. On that occasion did you have any interaction?

10 A. We greeted each other, and my company paid a round of drinks for his

11 friends and his friends paid another round for us.

12 Q. Do you recall when it was that this meeting occurred?

13 A. I do not remember the date exactly.

14 Q. Do you know what business or businesses Dule Tadic had?

15 A. I learnt that he had some sort of cafe, but I also knew that he was

16 involved in karate and I had the opportunity to look in the local

17 newspaper and read about Dusko Tadic.

18 Q. So you read about his sports activities in the paper?

19 A. Yes. He was running a karate club of sorts.

20 Q. Did you ever go to this cafe that Dusko Tadic owned?

21 A. No.

22 Q. How many times total would you say that you saw Dule Tadic before the

23 attacks began in opstina Prijedor in May 1992?

24 A. I could say several times, a number of times.

25 Q. During the time that you saw Dusko Tadic before the conflict, did you

Page 3655

1 ever see him with a beard?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you ever see him clean shaven?

4 A. I never paid any attention, much attention to that. He was with a

5 small beard, without a beard.

6 Q. Was there anything distinctive or noticeable about the way Dusko

7 Tadic walked?

8 A. Yes, he had a stagger, left to right, and he was rather puffed in the

9 face.

10 Q. I would like to draw your attention -- you indicated he had a

11 stagger, what do you mean by a stagger?

12 A. As he walked, he moved from side to side. He walked like an athlete,

13 mostly to be seen, to be, you know, to stand out -- maybe an

14 inferiority complex or something like that.

15 Q. I would like to draw your attention to 16th June 1992. On that date

16 did you see Dusko Tadic at Omarska camp?

17 A. Not in the camp, but I saw him in the concentration camp of Omarska.

18 We were not camping. We were inmates of a concentration camp.

19 Q. On that date were you beaten?

20 A. Yes, I was beaten.

21 Q. Where did the beating take place?

22 A. On the first floor of the administration building at the top of the

23 staircase.

24 Q. Were you there at the top of the staircase by yourself or was there

25 another detainee there with you?

Page 3656

1 A. There was one other individual with me, I think it was a minor by the

2 look of him. I do not know his name.

3 Q. Why had the two of you been taken to the first floor of the

4 administration building?

5 A. We had been taken in order to carry out a dead body which had been

6 killed.

7 Q. What happened to you after you reached the head of the stairs on the

8 first floor?

9 A. When we came to the top of the stairs we stopped. There was a

10 traditional position, attitude, hands behind the back, face down. The

11 first individual next to the stairs looked to me like a minor, a

12 stranger had come with me, I had never seen him before. I was right

13 next to him.

14 Q. What happened then as you stood there at the top of the stairs?

15 A. When we came I heard laughter, something like laughter. I had not

16 seen how many people there were around. At one point in time the

17 individual next to me received a blow. I could see the rubber baton,

18 not the entire scene because I had to look down. The stranger fell

19 down. I saw him urinating.

20 Q. What happened then?

21 A. When this individual came to he was told to go downstairs.

22 Q. What happened to you after this younger man had been hit and fallen

23 down?

24 A. An individual that I had not seen before had put under my throat a

25 rubber baton in such a way that my head was straightened up. I was no

Page 3657

1 longer looking down. I could see -- I was able to see the face of the

2 individual holding the rubber baton under my chin, roughly like this.

3 Q. Who was it that you saw?

4 A. At that moment I saw and recognised Dusko Tadic.

5 Q. What happened after Dusko Tadic stood before you with the baton under

6 your chin? What happened next?

7 A. All of a sudden, I did not expect a blow, he turned and I thought he

8 was going away from me and then a horrible blow came down on me, on my

9 head, here.

10 Q. What happened after that?

11 A. Then he asked me, "How come you are here? What brought you here?" I

12 answered, "Voluntarily." I saw the cynicism in his face, I saw the

13 smile, the grin, on his face. At one moment I saw next to his head at

14 the doorway there was Rade Knezevic, the inspector.

15 Q. What was he doing when you say him?

16 A. He was standing in the doorway.

17 Q. What happened then?

18 A. He asked me what my occupation was.

19 Q. Who was it who asked you that?

20 A. Dusko Tadic.

21 Q. What happened after that?

22 A. I replied that I was a policeman. He said, he told me to stretch out

23 my arms, my hands. I did so.

24 Q. So you spread out your hands with your palms up?

25 A. Then he said to turn my hands the other way round. I did so. He

Page 3658

1 asked me which hand I used to write. I said I was right handed.

2 Q. What happened then?

3 A. He started hitting me on the hand with the rubber baton. I suffered

4 the blows. Another stranger came to the place where we were and he

5 started beating me too. At one point the rubber baton fell on the

6 floor. Then Dusko Tadic said to me, "Pick up the baton and say, 'Here

7 you are, sir, and Serb, Mr. Serb'." I had no choice. I knelt down,

8 picked up the baton and as I handed him the baton I said, "Here you

9 are, Mr. Serb". Then the barrel of the submachine gun was put into my

10 mouth.

11 Q. By whom?

12 A. Dusko Tadic, by Dusko Tadic.

13 Q. In what position were you when the barrel of this submachine gun was

14 put into your mouth? Were you standing at that time?

15 A. Yes. I was standing, but not quite straight, not quite upright, not

16 quite normally. I had taken, perhaps it was mechanical from training,

17 I had taken a posture somewhat lower so that I stood more firmly on my

18 feet. There was this barrel in my mouth and then I began receiving

19 blows on my head.

20 Q. While you received these blows on your head, was this barrel still

21 in your mouth?

22 A. Yes. That barrel was in my mouth and I was receiving double blows

23 with a rubber baton and with the metal spring. Now, rubber baton, one

24 can still survive, somehow manage it, but not a metal spring. My head

25 was bursting, blood was bursting. It was awful. My teeth were

Page 3659

1 breaking. Everything was breaking. I cannot remember exactly which

2 blow was the last one. The last one was really terrible. I have a

3 feeling that Dusko Tadic at that moment had stepped backward. I do

4 not know whether the barrel was out of my mouth at that moment or

5 before that, but I received a terrible blow there and everything

6 burst. I fell. I fainted. I do not know for how long I was down.

7 Q. While you were standing there with the barrel of the gun in your

8 mouth, you said you were being hit on the head with double blows. Who

9 was hitting you at that time?

10 A. A person I did not know, because I could not -- I had no opportunity

11 of taking a glance at that other person. I do not know who it was.

12 Q. In addition to this person that you did not know, was anyone else

13 hitting you with a baton?

14 A. Dusko Tadic was hitting me with a metal spring and that other person

15 with a rubber baton, and it was really ugly. I was receiving those

16 blows while this barrel is in my mouth, and my head was swinging left

17 and right. A double blow is the worst one and they were hitting me

18 together.

19 Q. How was Dusko Tadic able to hit you with this metal object if he had

20 the barrel in your mouth?

21 A. He was holding this machine gun on his left shoulder.

22 Q. He was hitting you with his other hand?

23 A. With his right hand.

24 Q. You indicated that after this last very hard blow to the back of your

25 head, you fell. Did you become unconscious for a time?

Page 3660

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What happened after you regained consciousness?

3 A. When I regained consciousness, what I saw, I saw where I was. I did

4 recover somewhat. I had fallen and then at that point somebody in the

5 boots was there, in soldier's boots was there. I cannot forget ever

6 that thing. I am just recovering, I am regaining consciousness and I

7 see the soldier's boots and I am on the floor, I am on the ground.

8 Then the order came not far from me, perhaps a metre, a metre and a

9 half away, there was a body and that was awful. The man was lying

10 down. He did have a head and did not have a head because the head had

11 been crushed. You could not identify a nose or eyes or any part of

12 his body only blood, blood, blood.

13 Q. What happened then?

14 A. Then Dusko Tadic told me to hit the man lying down on the head.

15 Q. Did you do that?

16 A. Regrettably, I had to.

17 Q. When you hit the man what was the sensation?

18 A. Unspeakable. When we used to train, to coach, and you have your

19 sparring partner, you do not hit that man directly. You can only

20 reach as far as this body. I did not want to hit that man, but unless

21 I hit him I had no choice. I hit the man and then something came out

22 of his head. I did not hit him much. I cannot say what, but a scream,

23 no, it was not a scream, it was something, something which one really

24 cannot experience in normal conditions. Something came out of that

25 head, a sound. I do not know what it was.

Page 3661

1 Q. What happened after that?

2 A. After that from a room two civilians unknown to me came out and they

3 were carrying a camera, and they walked towards us and Dusko Tadic

4 said then, told me to flee downstairs, to get away downstairs. I

5 could barely stand up and, as I was going down the stairs, then there

6 is a sort of a semi-turn to the right and I hitted down there and I

7 ricocheted from that wall. It was horrible, but I managed to return

8 to people, to my group, by myself.

9 Q. At this time I would like to ask that this photograph along with a

10 black and white copy be marked as Prosecution Exhibit 250A and B for

11 identification. After that is marked, if that could be shown to the

12 Defence and then provided to the witness? Sir, do you recognise what

13 is depicted on that photograph?

14 A. Yes, I recognise it very well.

15 Q. Does that photograph depict the area near the top of the stairs on

16 the first floor of the administration building at the Omarska

17 concentration camp?

18 A. Yes, it does.

19 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, for clarification 250A would be the colour

20 photo and B would be the black and white copy. (To the witness):

21 Sir, at this time if you could put the black and white copy on the

22 overhead projector?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. If we could zoom back, please, so that we can see that? Thank you.

25 That is good right there. If you would take one of the red pens that

Page 3662

1 are on the table there? There are two red pens. If you could take

2 one of those, please, and if you could first point for us to the area

3 where you were standing when this incident began?

4 A. The person I did not know was standing here and I was next to him.

5 Q. Could you please take that red pen and, if you would, please, where

6 you were standing put the letter "W" -- if you could press hard to be

7 sure that that can be seen -- and where the younger detainee was

8 standing, if you could use that pen and put "W1"? Sir, if you could

9 point to the position where Dule Tadic was standing and if you could

10 take that red pen and put the letter "T" in that position?

11 A. "T"?

12 Q. Yes, "T".

13 A. (The witness indicated on the photograph).

14 Q. You mentioned that at some point you saw a man, Rade Knezevic,

15 standing and watching what was going on. Could you point to where

16 Rade Knezevic was when you saw him?

17 A. Yes, I can.

18 Q. So he was standing by the door that is depicted on the right side of

19 the photograph as you look at it?

20 A. Yes, here at that door.

21 Q. Thank you. Your Honour, at this time I would tender Prosecution

22 Exhibit 250A and B for identification.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

24 MR. KAY: There is no objection, your Honour. Perhaps the Prosecution

25 would be good enough to provide us with a copy?

Page 3663

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibits 250A and 250B will be admitted and you will

2 provide the Defence with a copy, please, immediately.

3 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour. (To the witness): Mr. Mrkalj, during

4 this incident you have just described in total how long did you

5 actually see Dule Tadic?

6 A. Well, I had enough time to be able to identify him. At the moment

7 when my head was straightened I could see, he was, well, roughly about

8 this and then there is the length of the baton, so he was in my

9 immediate vicinity, eye to eye.

10 Q. Sir, if you can estimate during this incident the total time that you

11 saw Dule Tadic -- was it seconds, was it minutes?

12 A. Several minutes, I think, I could not be more precise, but several

13 minutes -- enough never to forget him, enough.

14 Q. Do you recall what Dusko Tadic was wearing during this incident?

15 A. He was wearing blue police jacket, buttoned up. He was also wearing

16 soldier's boots.

17 Q. Do you recall anything about those boots?

18 A. Yes, there was blood on those boots, fresh blood.

19 Q. Could you describe his physical appearance at the time you saw him?

20 A. Well, he looked, well, a rounded face. He had a beard, not a normal

21 beard. He was unshaven. At the first glance he looked as if

22 perspiring, as if he had been doing something. There was sweat. I

23 could see his cynicism. I could see his grin in his look, as if he

24 was enjoying himself.

25 Q. You indicated that he had a beard, not a normal beard, he was

Page 3664

1 unshaven. Could you describe for us, please, this beard? Was it a

2 long full beard? Did it appear to be some days growth? Could you

3 describe that for us?

4 A. Well, I do not know whether his facial hair grows quickly or not, but

5 he was unshaven, for how long I do not know, 10 days, I do not know.

6 It is really difficult to determine. It varies from one man to

7 another. It depends really on how quickly his facial hair grows. He

8 had a growth.

9 Q. During that incident did you ever hit or attempt to hit any of the

10 men who were beating you?

11 A. No, unfortunately.

12 Q. What physical injuries did you suffer as a result of the beating you

13 received?

14 A. After that people said I would not survive. I had even said goodbye

15 to some people. I could not walk without having somebody holding my

16 head for several days. It was terrible, especially when there would

17 be more than 600 of us in the restaurant, then everybody had to stand

18 up and I could not. There was no room. I can never forget the help

19 that people gave me who were so thoughtful, who took me, Agan Sekiric,

20 then Mulalic. My teeth were in a very bad shape. They had been

21 knocked together. I had no care. It was very hard.

22 In Manjaca, a tooth was pulled out. I think that doctor's

23 name was Leopold we called him "Dr. Leo". It was pulled out in a very

24 primitive way. It was very hard. The effects were somewhat -- showed

25 up later. I underwent three surgeries. The first surgery I underwent

Page 3665

1 as soon as I arrived in Karlovac, I was in a very -- I was in an awful

2 shape.

3 Q. Mr. Mrkalj, were all three of these surgeries on your gums and mouth

4 to correct the injuries you had received?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You had indicated that you received blows to your right hand. Did

7 you suffer any damage to that hand as a result of those blows?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. How long did you suffer the effect of those blows on your hand?

10 A. About three, for the past three months I have been able to use it

11 normally, to do everything with it; until then I could not put it like

12 that. It was painful, terrible pain. Now it is much better, much

13 better.

14 Q. After this beating that was given to you by Dusko Tadic, do you

15 recall an occasion when visitors came to the concentration camp and

16 prisoners were lined up and ordered to sing Serbian songs?

17 A. Yes, I remember.

18 Q. Were these visitors accompanied by any Serb leaders that you

19 recognised?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Who was that that you recognised?

22 A. I recognised Simo Drljaca, Simo Miskovic, Dule Jankovic and Vojo

23 Kupresanin who must have come from Banja Luka. He is a politician.

24 Q. Were any of the camp leaders there to greet these visitors?

25 A. Yes, Zeljko Meakic was the Commander at the time and there were also

Page 3666

1 the shift heads.

2 Q. Did you notice anything about the license plates of the cars that

3 those visitors were brought to the camp in?

4 A. Yes, I did. One of the vehicles had the license plates beginning

5 with number, with the figure "9" and another one with "6".

6 Q. You had indicated earlier that "9" had a significance to you and that

7 had indicated the federal SUP. What did the number "6", what

8 significance did that have to you?

9 A. "6" means, "6" indicates the territory of the Republic of Serbia,

10 that is, that vehicle should be owned by someone in the Republic of

11 Serbia, since police vehicles had, the police vehicles in the Republic

12 of Serbia had "6" as the first number on their plates,

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina had No. 1. I mean, each Republic had a different

14 number.

15 Q. When you left Omarska where were you taken?

16 A. I was taken to Manjaca.

17 Q. Who arranged the transport of the detainees to Manjaca?

18 A. The transport Commander was Milan Gavrilovic.

19 Q. How were you transported to Manjaca, what type of vehicles?

20 A. We were taken by buses of Auto Service Ljubija and Auto Transport

21 Prijedor.

22 Q. Where did you go from there?

23 A. We went to Manjaca.

24 Q. After Manjaca where did you go?

25 A. After Manjaca, when Manjaca was closed down, I came to the Republic

Page 3667

1 of Croatia. It was organised through UNHCR.

2 Q. Mr. Mrkalj, would you please look around the courtroom and tell us if

3 you see Dusko Tadic in the courtroom?

4 A. Yes, I will. That is this garbage over there.

5 Q. Sir, if you would refrain from such comments, please?

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Please do. Just identify, if you can, the accused.

7 MISS HOLLIS: Would you please tell us where he is sitting in the

8 courtroom?

9 A. He is sitting there in front of me between two policemen.

10 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I would ask that a proper identification be

11 noted.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes. The record will reflect that the witness has

13 identified the accused.

14 MISS HOLLIS: Mr. Mrkalj, prior to the attacks in opstina Prijedor in May

15 1992, were you a member of any anti-Serb military or paramilitary

16 organisation?

17 A. No, I was not.

18 Q. Were you a member of any organised anti-Serb resistance?

19 A. No.

20 Q. After the beginning of these attacks were you a member of any such

21 organisation?

22 A. No, regrettably not.

23 Q. Sir, as a result of the attacks and other events in the opstina of

24 Prijedor, have you lost any family members who are either dead or

25 missing?

Page 3668

1 A. Yes, we lost 52 members.

2 MISS HOLLIS: No further questions, your Honour.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Cross-examination?

4 Cross-examined by MR. KAY

5 Q. Mr. Mrkalj, the first matter I want to ask you about is whether you

6 have discussed the evidence that you were going to give today with any

7 other witness in this case?

8 A. No, I did not.

9 Q. Or whether you have been told about the evidence of any other witness

10 in this case?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Or whether you have been watching through television or reading

13 reports about the evidence being given in this case?

14 A. No.

15 Q. What I am interested in then is the matter of the flower pots on the

16 pista that were pointed out to you in a photograph earlier this

17 morning. Do you recollect that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Perhaps if we could have on our screen then these particular

20 containers as shown in, I believe it is, Exhibit 247?

21 MISS HOLLIS: I believe that is 246.

22 MR. KAY: 246. If that could be put on the video monitor so that we can

23 all see it? Thank you. Perhaps it can be adjusted so that we can

24 take the light off the right-hand side which we have at the moment and

25 perhaps any reflection be shown on the left-hand side? Thank you very

Page 3669

1 much, Mr. Bos. (To the witness): You recollect being shown this

2 photograph earlier today, Mr. Mrkalj?

3 A. Yes, I remember.

4 Q. What I am interested in is your opinion that there would have been

5 greater spaces between these containers at the time that you were on

6 the pista?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you recollect giving that opinion earlier today?

9 A. I do.

10 Q. We have available to us, just so that you know, photographs showing

11 the whole of this area with those containers, and this is not the only

12 photograph that shows them. Do you understand?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. These containers mark the boundary between the administration

15 building and the large hangar building on both sides, is that right?

16 A. It is.

17 Q. The spacing that we have within this photograph before the Court is

18 what I suggest to you is the regular and ordinary spacing of the

19 containers on the pista? Do you disagree with that?

20 A. I stick to my earlier statement.

21 Q. Perhaps if you could repeat that so that I am sure as to what you are

22 saying?

23 A. Why not. There was larger, bigger spacing, I am quite convinced of

24 that.

25 Q. So what you are saying is that extra containers have been put in

Page 3670

1 position on the pista and the grouping of the containers put in such a

2 way to give a less space ----

3 A. That is what you are saying.

4 Q. --- between the containers. I am trying to find out what you are

5 saying and what the logic of what you are saying, whether it exists?

6 I am sorry to have to ask you about this, but it is my job to test

7 your evidence.

8 A. Just go ahead, ask your questions. I will reply to them.

9 Q. You would be saying that there is a greater spacing between those

10 containers?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. If we have photographs of these containers showing regular spacing of

13 them between the buildings, photographs that were taken after August

14 1992, it would seem that you would be saying that extra containers

15 have been added, and that those containers have all been adjusted and

16 moved to give a representation such as we see in this photograph?

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Has it been translated for you, Mr. Mrkalj? Did you

18 hear the question?

19 MR. KAY: Perhaps Mr. Bos can check with whether the right channel is on

20 the desk. Perhaps someone could advise me whether the question I put

21 was translated?

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Why do you not repeat the question. He says he

23 believes there is more space and you are suggesting the logic of it.

24 Did someone add them or what?

25 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour.

Page 3671

1 What I am asking you to consider, if there are photographs

2 showing the regular spacing of these containers taken after August

3 1992 at the distance we see in this photograph, are you saying that

4 containers were added and the grouping, spacing of the containers

5 adjusted to give the representation in this photograph?

6 A. I stick to the statement that I gave earlier. There was greater

7 spacing between the containers during the time I was in the

8 concentration camp in Omarska. As far as the photographs that were

9 made later, I cannot say anything about them. I am just telling you

10 about the state of affairs in the camp when I was there, what I

11 witnessed with my own eyes, and I am telling you about that and

12 nothing beyond that.

13 Q. You see, this photograph was in fact taken during August 1992 when

14 this camp was operating, and it was material taken by a television

15 news team who went to the camp on a day and met Mr. Drljaca, Nada

16 Balaban, and they filmed this at the beginning of August 1992?

17 A. I am just repeating what I said earlier. There was greater spacing

18 than the one shown in this photograph. What happened later I do not

19 know, nor can I confirm because I did not see that. What I see now,

20 there was greater spacing earlier and that is what I claim.

21 Q. You are not prepared to consider that you could be mistaken or wrong

22 about this?

23 A. I am still of the same view, it was greater spacing and I stand

24 behind my words.

25 Q. Very well. I want now to turn to events that you have described as

Page 3672

1 taking place on 16th June 1992. What I would like you to tell me is

2 how you were aware of that particular date. Counsel for the

3 Prosecution gave it to you and you agreed, but I want to know whether

4 you know and how you know of that particular date?

5 A. I do not take advice from anybody. Let me first reply to that

6 question. I speak on my own behalf. I came here without advisers,

7 without instructions, and I am talking about what I have personally

8 seen and experienced. So, please ask a concrete question what you are

9 interested in. I have no advisers, nor do I need any.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Mrkalj, this is cross-examination and Mr. Kay is

11 testing your testimony. He is entitled to put these questions to you.

12 It is your responsibility to respond to them, not to make any guess

13 as to why he is asking or what is the reasoning. Respond to his

14 questions. If you cannot respond to his questions, then say you do

15 not understand the question and then he will attempt to rephrase it.

16 Will you do that, please?

17 THE WITNESS: Yes. Please, it was translated to me that I was given

18 advice from advisers and I answered that particular question.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I understand.

20 THE WITNESS: I will give a very concrete answer.

21 MR. KAY: If I can put this again. You said a particular incident

22 happened to you concerning Dusko Tadic on 16th June 1992. What I

23 would like to know is how do you know that date? Where did that

24 information come from?

25 A. I had a wristwatch on my person at the time showing dates. I could

Page 3673

1 tell what the date was and that date was interesting, the most

2 interesting day and the saddest day for me personally because I was

3 beaten up, but I also connect this day with another fact. In the

4 concentration camp of Omarska a list was made of all the people. We

5 were registered on 16th June 1992, and when I was taken out of a group

6 of 30 and taken upstairs in the administration building we were listed

7 in the books. So I stick to my earlier statement that it was 16th

8 June 1992.

9 Q. Did that wristwatch remain with you during your confinement in

10 Omarska?

11 A. No, it did not. It was seized.

12 Q. Did you have any particular reason to look at the date on your

13 wristwatch on that particular day?

14 A. Yes, it is my part of my professional deformation, defect, to look at

15 the watch. It was part of my service when I was on duty. My work was

16 always connected with time limits and in every situation I had to look

17 at my watch and write down the time and the date.

18 Q. Perhaps you could then help me with what time it was that this

19 incident took place in the administration building?

20 A. Yes, about 2 o'clock.

21 Q. Is that in the afternoon?

22 A. Yes, in the afternoon.

23 Q. When you went up to the administration building with this younger

24 person, were you given the reason for your going there by a guard or

25 someone else?

Page 3674

1 A. We were standing, as I said, in a line. One of the guards came up to

2 us and pointed at me, and said, "You and you, come upstairs to carry a

3 body out."

4 Q. When you went into the building you had your head bowed, as you have

5 told us, looking at the ground, which was the way that you had to move

6 around the camp, is that right?

7 A. Yes, I had my head bowed. I did say that.

8 Q. When you got to the landing at the top of the stairs in the

9 administration building, again that was how your head would have been

10 positioned?

11 A. Yes, we had to hold that position until the next order.

12 Q. So, when you got to the landing at the top of the stairs, did you

13 wait facing against the wall that we have seen in the photograph?

14 A. No, we did not face the wall. The wall was behind our backs.

15 Q. So you were facing out into the landing, but your head was bowed?

16 A. No, I did not face the landing. As I stood I was not facing the

17 staircase because the staircase was on my left. We were practically

18 in the corridor of the first floor of the administration building.

19 Under normal conditions we would be facing the door which I pointed

20 out where Rade Knezevic was standing.

21 Q. When you arrived at the corridor at the top of the stairs, did you

22 just stop to wait for the next order? Did you expect someone to then

23 tell you at some stage to do something?

24 A. Yes, we expected something, but there was laughter, as I said

25 previously.

Page 3675

1 Q. It was then after that laughter that you experienced the young person

2 next to you receiving a blow?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You could not tell who had delivered that blow because you were

5 looking down to the ground?

6 A. I think that the blow was delivered by Dusko Tadic.

7 Q. That is something that you think.

8 A. I am certain of that. Not only do I think but I am certain of that.

9 Q. You told us earlier this morning that you had not seen how many

10 people were around this area where you were standing against the wall?

11 A. No, I was not able to see.

12 Q. It was when a baton was put under your throat that your head was

13 lifted for the first time?

14 A. Yes, my head was lifted. Then I was able to see in front of me

15 face-to-face Dusko Tadic.

16 Q. You say that you have known Dusko Tadic and met him several times

17 over the course of the previous year?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. He knew someone that you knew called Emir Karabasic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Who was a policeman?

22 A. Yes, he was a policeman.

23 Q. And you were a policeman?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When you said about the monthly meetings where you would get to a bar

Page 3676

1 or cafe earlier than the meeting so that you could talk together, are

2 you saying that Dusko Tadic was present in those circumstances?

3 A. Not -- it is not -- I am saying that, but I have already said Dusko

4 was present, Dusko Tadic was present, and I met him on such an

5 occasion.

6 Q. So he would have known that you were a policeman?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. But the person in the corridor who lifted your head up with a baton

9 apparently did not know what your job was, because you told us that he

10 asked what your occupation was?

11 A. It is a good question, because the question was asked for reasons of

12 cynicism, his grin, his smile.

13 Q. Yet in this conversation with the man in the corridor you have not

14 referred to him using your name?

15 A. I said what his name was.

16 Q. You have given his name in this courtroom, but from your evidence

17 earlier today I do not think we heard ----

18 A. I did not understand the earlier question, I am sorry. It was not

19 translated to me that way.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What earlier question? Mr. Kay had not finished a

21 question.

22 THE WITNESS: The earlier question when I was asked if I had said my name.

23 MR. KAY: In the evidence that you gave earlier today you did not tell us

24 that you had used your name or he had used your name when speaking to

25 you in the corridor?

Page 3677

1 A. We must go back to the earlier question. This was not translated to

2 me that way. I did not say ----

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We are having a difficulty understanding each other.

4 Mr. Kay is cross-examining you and what he is saying is that Mr.

5 Tadic never used your name before. You have to just answer the

6 question that he asks without, I would suggest, trying to understand

7 why he is asking this. I think I understand why you are asking it and

8 that seems to be the problem. The question is, had Mr. Tadic used

9 your name before when he was referring to you. Had he?

10 THE WITNESS: Yes, that is -- no, my name was not mentioned.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So then he says to you, "What do you do?" then of

12 course you have testified that the reason you feel that he said that

13 was cynicism, but keep in mind this is cross-examination. Answer the

14 questions if you understand them.

15 THE WITNESS: No problem.


17 THE WITNESS: I would appreciate it if the translators would not take

18 turns so frequently.

19 MR. KAY: I will go back a bit, your Honour.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think I understand your point.

21 MR. KAY: Yes.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: But you may rephrase and re-ask, if you wish.

23 MR. KAY: I do not want to disorientate the witness from the question.

24 (To the witness): During there incident in the corridor the

25 man you say was Dusko Tadic did not use your name Edin Mrkalj?

Page 3678

1 A. No, he did not use my name.

2 Q. When you looked at that man, did you in fact think that he looked

3 older than Dusko Tadic looked?

4 A. No, I did not think so. It was Dusko Tadic and at that moment I

5 recognised Dusko Tadic.

6 Q. When you had described him from earlier occasions, can you remember

7 whether he had a beard or not before May 1992?

8 A. On previous encounters in 1991 he did have a beard.

9 Q. By "a beard" we mean a proper long beard, is that right, not just

10 being unshaven?

11 A. Yes, a proper long beard.

12 Q. The person you saw during this attack upon you in the corridor did

13 not have the same kind of beard?

14 A. No, at that moment he did not. I have already said on different

15 occasions I was with Dusko Tadic. We greeted each other. I was able

16 to see him without a beard and with a beard. It is a specific feature.

17 When we say "beard" we mean a proper beard. So I stick to my earlier

18 statement that Dusko Tadic at that time did have a beard, not a big

19 beard, but he had not been shaven for a period of 10 days. As I say,

20 I cannot -- I do not have the information how fast his facial hair

21 grows but he was unshaven.

22 Q. Did that person in the corridor look different from the man that you

23 knew as Dusko Tadic from before the conflict?

24 A. It was Dusko Tadic and in those moments his appearance which you ask

25 me about was not the same as previously, on our previous encounters.

Page 3679

1 I already mentioned his cynicism. One could see a certain pleasure in

2 his face for some reason that is not quite clear to me.

3 Q. I am actually interested in appearance and description. I will ask

4 you this again. Was the appearance of the person different, not their

5 character but the way the person looked?

6 A. No, it was Dusko Tadic.

7 Q. Perhaps you would like to look at a statement that you have made in

8 relation to these proceedings, and I will give it to you in your own

9 language as well as have to hand the original in English.

10 In view of the time, your Honour, it might be better if we put

11 these matters together and deal with them after the short adjournment.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I was going to suggest perhaps you could move to

13 another area and come back to the statements, but if you want to

14 follow that that is acceptable.

15 Yesterday Mr. Wladimiroff had offered for identification

16 purposes a copy of a statement. I believe that he said that that was

17 his only copy. He offered both the statement in the witness's

18 language as well as the English translation. I merely want to say

19 that if you wish you may withdraw your copy and have a copy made. In

20 other words, the Registrar will either provide you with a copy or, if

21 necessary, give you back the copy he gave and we will then substitute

22 for our purposes a copy. The same with two these exhibits, if it is

23 your your only copy we will be happy to see to it that you have a copy

24 for your files.

25 MR. KAY: I am much obliged, your Honour.

Page 3680

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess until 2.30. Over the lunch

2 adjournment, Miss Hollis, talk with Mr. Mrkalj, please, and explain as

3 you indicated that it is important for him to answer the questions.

4 It is also very important, Mr. Mrkalj, that you avoid any invectives

5 when you are referring to the accused in this case. You should refer

6 to him as his name. Do you understand?

7 THE WITNESS: I apologise for that.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess until 2.30.

9 (1.00 p.m.).

10 (Luncheon Adjournment)

11 (2.30 p.m.) PRIVATE

12 MR. KAY: If your Honour pleases? Mr. Mrkalj, I would like you to look at

13 this statement which records an interview that took place with you

14 between 27th and 29th April 1995. The first document that I hand to

15 you -- your Honour, for purposes of tendering perhaps this could be

16 marked D21 -- that is a record of that interview in your own language.

17 The second document, Mr. Usher -- if this can be marked D21A -- is

18 that interview taken in the form of the English translation. Do you

19 recollect being interviewed in April of last year, Mr. Mrkalj?

20 A. Yes, I remember.

21 Q. On that occasion you had an interpreter there who spoke to you in

22 your own language and translated a statement that had been written in

23 English to you, and you confirmed you understood what had been

24 written, is that right?

25 A. Yes, I signed.

Page 3681

1 Q. If you look at the second document that was handed to you, you in

2 fact see that your signature appears on the pages of that document, is

3 that right?

4 A. Yes, I see that.

5 Q. Putting that to one side, if you look at the translation in your own

6 language, I would like you to turn to page 4. The numbers are marked

7 on the bottom right hand corner of each page. Can you see that?

8 There is two paragraphs, the first one being the fourth paragraph from

9 the bottom "Tesko", it begins, can you see that, and it refers to 183

10 centimetres. Can you see that paragraph?

11 A. I do.

12 Q. Perhaps you could read out that paragraph which starts "Tesko mi je

13 ... " in your own language?

14 A. "It is difficult for me to describe Tadic because he has changed

15 since the time I saw him before. I remember that during the incident

16 he looked about 40 years old, roughly my height, 183 centimetres, well

17 built, dark hair, slightly curly with a beard".

18 Q. Perhaps you could read it more slowly and not at such a great pace

19 because those listening in the courtroom have to hear how it is

20 translated. If you could take that paragraph much more slowly?

21 A. "It is difficult for me to describe Tadic".

22 Q. Continue.

23 A. "He has changed since the time when I saw him before the conflict".

24 Q. Continue.

25 A. "I remember that during the incident he looked about 40, about my

Page 3682

1 height, 183 centimetres, well built".

2 Q. Continue.

3 A. "Dark hair, slightly curly, with a beard of some 10 to 15 days".

4 Q. If you could do the same in the next paragraph that begins with "Iz"?

5 A. "For the time before the camp Tadic looked as between 28 and 35 years

6 of age. When he beat me he looked, he appeared older to me".

7 Q. Do you remember before our break this morning that I asked you

8 whether the man who attacked you looked different, whether the man you

9 say was Dusko Tadic looked different in appearance from the man you

10 said was Tadic before, do you remember?

11 A. I do.

12 Q. All you could refer to was the fact of the cynicism that he had in

13 his eyes, is that right?

14 A. Yes, I did say I noticed cynicism in his eyes.

15 Q. In this statement that you made last year you said that the

16 appearance of Tadic had changed since you saw him before the conflict?

17 A. Then in the statement I said, first, to clarify it, I signed it in

18 English and, as regards his appearance and your question, I said that

19 at the moment while I was being beaten his appearance changed, to my

20 mind. I was referring to my psychological -- to the state of my mind,

21 my mental state.

22 Q. Just turn over the page to the very last page of that document in

23 your own language on page 5?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You see there a certificate and you will see there a place where

Page 3683

1 there is a space for a signature which you signed?

2 A. Yes, I signed it.

3 Q. Dated 29th April 1995?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. If you just care to look at what is written in that certificate in

6 your own language as I read it out, "Witness acknowledgment. This

7 statement has been read over to me in the Bosnian language and is true

8 to the best of my knowledge and recollection. I have given this

9 statement voluntarily and am aware that it may be used in legal

10 proceedings before the International Criminal Tribunal for the

11 Prosecution of persons responsible for Serious Violations of

12 International Law committed in the territory of the former Yugoslavia

13 since 1991, and that I may be called to give evidence in public before

14 the Tribunal."

15 You signed that acknowledgment?

16 A. Yes, I signed it.

17 Q. Also on the document is a certificate signed by the interpreter?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Which gives a clear statement that this statement had been read back

20 to you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you were informed of its contents?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. As you have told us, you were a policeman?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3684

1 Q. I dare say that giving a statement for legal proceedings, as a

2 policeman, you would take great care to ensure that what you had said

3 was within that statement, would I be right?

4 A. Yes, but in my -- I read it in my mother tongue, this statement.

5 Q. Yes, and it was read out to you in your mother tongue. The whole

6 purpose of this is that there is an interpreter who does that for you,

7 who has a duty and signs it. You are not saying that the interpreter

8 has been making things up, are you?

9 A. Could you repeat the question, please?

10 Q. You are not saying that someone has been making things up to put them

11 in your statement, are you?

12 A. I think that some changes occurred.

13 Q. Because it is difficult to see why someone from the Prosecution would

14 want to insert in your statement as a Prosecution witness that the

15 person they are accusing had changed in appearance, do you understand?

16 A. I do.

17 Q. When we look at that second paragraph you read out, "From before my

18 time in the camp Tadic looked as he was between 28 to 35 years old.

19 When he beat me in the camp, he looked older", and you have described

20 him as being 40 years old. There seems to be a great difference in

21 ages between the two men?

22 A. I meant at that time, at that time when I knew him as a sportsman I

23 gave that estimate. However, in the camp at Omarska, I mean this

24 referred to the situation, to my very difficult mental condition. He

25 looked, his shape, his face appeared older. He seemed to me tired.

Page 3685

1 He looked sweaty. As for the height, I mean, to my mind he was at

2 that time three metres tall, not one metre.83 because I was in a

3 completely different mental state. That is what I meant.

4 Q. So did the condition and your mental state, in fact, make it

5 difficult for you to recognise and identify the man who was attacking

6 you at all?

7 A. No, that is not what I mean. I am talking about the situation in

8 which I was, that is, my mental state when I looked at him and I do

9 remember the statement. When I looked at him from the floor upward, I

10 mean, he looked terrible, older, completely different, but while I was

11 still conscious and could look as I am looking at you now, face to

12 face, then I could, I had enough time to recognise Dusko Tadic. So,

13 this here refers to my bad mental condition, to those difficult

14 moments.

15 Q. Why did you not want to explain to us before we broke for lunch about

16 those changes in the man who attacked you? Why did you not want to

17 tell us about that? Why did I have to put this statement to you?

18 A. Because you did not ask me about my mental state at that particular

19 moment. If Dusko Tadic at that time appeared different, and if I

20 remember well and I do remember well, you asked me at the very

21 beginning whether I could see Dusko Tadic properly.

22 Q. Did you, in fact, know Dusko Tadic at all?

23 A. Yes, I did know him.

24 Q. Had you ever met him?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3686

1 Q. Dusko Tadic was someone who lived in Kozarac. Did you live in

2 Kozarac?

3 A. No.

4 MR. KAY: That is all I ask, your Honour.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, any redirect?

6 Re-examined by MISS HOLLIS

7 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour, thank you.

8 Mr. Mrkalj, if you would refer again to the document that the

9 Defence counsel referred to, that is the statement in your own

10 language and if would you look at page 3 of that statement. If you

11 would look, please, at the third paragraph beginning with the words,

12 and I apologise for my pronunciation "U ovom incidentu Tadic", can you

13 see which paragraph I am talking about?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. If you would please look at the last sentence in that paragraph

16 beginning with "Tadic", and if you would please read that statement,

17 that sentence, for us?

18 A. "Tadic's face was dirty, hair was dirty, tired eyes as if from the

19 lack of sleep and he was drunk".

20 Q. When you saw Dusko Tadic that day in Omarska, is it this type of

21 physical condition that you were talking about as being different?

22 A. Could you repeat the question, please? I did not get you quite

23 well.

24 Q. When you saw Dusko Tadic that day in Omarska, is it this type of

25 physical condition that you were talking about as being different?

Page 3687

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Sir, the Defence counsel asked you if you were saying to the Court

3 that the interpreter had been making things up in that statement. Are

4 you saying that there was a mistake in the interpretation?

5 A. I think there was a mistake in interpretation, and it referred to a

6 different kind of situation, that is not the state when I came, when I

7 arrived, the first meeting. This referred when I was giving this

8 statement, I was referring to when I was on the ground, I looked at

9 him upward and that was the appearance.

10 Q. You understand that it is very important in proceedings such as these

11 that you give the truth as you remember it, regardless of what that

12 truth is, do you not?

13 A. Yes, of course.

14 Q. You have testified to these Judges in this courtroom that you

15 recognised the man that day in Omarska as the Dusko Tadic who had been

16 introduced to you by Emir Karabasic. Were you able, in fact, to

17 recognise that man that day in Omarska as the Dusko Tadic who had been

18 previously introduced to you?

19 A. Yes, that was Dusko Tadic and nobody else.

20 Q. You indicated during the cross-examination that you had previously

21 seen Dusko Tadic prior to this incident in Omarska with a long beard.

22 Can you tell the Court what you mean. When you had seen him before

23 this incident in Omarska, had there been a long beard or a full beard?

24 This is becoming somewhat confusing and if you could clarify that.

25 Describe the beard he had before you saw him in Omarska?

Page 3688

1 A. Yes, the longest beard he ever had was roughly like this.

2 Q. How many centimetres from his face?

3 A. Oh, I would say about two or three, two to three centimetres.

4 Q. So you are talking about a full beard but not necessarily a long

5 beard, would that be correct?

6 A. No, not long.

7 Q. When you testified under direct examination, I believe you said that

8 during this incident as the man with the baton raised your face so

9 that you could see him, that when you saw him he asked you something

10 to the effect, "How come you are here? What brought you here?" is

11 that correct?

12 A. He asked me, yes, "How come that you came here?" and "What are you

13 doing here?"

14 Q. If you recall, what was the expression on his face at the time he

15 asked you that?

16 A. He was very cynical. I felt cynicism in that question, as if it is,

17 you know, a man knows why you are here and how you got there, but he

18 tries to psychologically kill you and then he asks you a question of

19 that kind.

20 Q. So it was after, is this correct, in your direct testimony I believe

21 you indicated it was after he had asked you something to the effect,

22 "How come you are here? What brought you here?" it was after that

23 that Dusko Tadic asked you your profession, is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 MISS HOLLIS: No further questions, thank you.

Page 3689


2 MR. KAY: Just one other matter.

3 Further cross-examined by MR. KAY

4 Q. Mr. Mrkalj, when you say someone could be 28 years old, do you mean

5 they are 40 years old?

6 A. I am referring to a state, about knowing a man before and at the time

7 of my very difficult mental condition, that is, when I was giving this

8 statement, that is what he looked like, as a sportsman, that is. So I

9 gave this approximate age, 28 to 35, up to 35. But in those very

10 difficult moments, in that very painful condition that I was in, then

11 I said he could have been 40.

12 MR. KAY: Thank you very much.


14 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, there is one matter, perhaps, before the

15 witness is excused. I am almost hesitant in the timing now, given

16 some of the questions on cross-examination, but I would inform the

17 Court that before we came back into session, a person from the

18 interpretation section indicated to me, told me, that during the

19 direct examination of this witness there had been a misinterpretation

20 into English of what the witness had said. Dealing with the incident

21 with Dule Tadic, there had been an English interpretation that Dule

22 Tadic, Dusko Tadic, had a "submachine gun". The interpreter indicated

23 to me that, in fact, what Mr. Mrkalj had said was that Dusko Tadic had

24 an "automatic rifle". I would note that for the Court. If there is

25 any question about that, we can have the interpretation section come

Page 3690

1 in and explain that.


3 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I am sure it is a matter that can be checked

4 according to the record of what was said and we will be advised as to

5 what the actual translation was. It will not make my difference to my

6 presentation of the cross-examination. I do not need to reopen any

7 matter concerning that. I am sure we can deal with it after the

8 session is finished today.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is fine. My real question was, I suppose,

10 whether you would have additional cross-examination in the light now

11 of the understanding that it was an automatic rifle instead of a

12 submachine gun.

13 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. We do not need to hear from the interpreter

15 certainly before we release this witness?

16 MR. KAY: No, I think it would be unnecessary.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, very good. Anything else, Miss Hollis?

18 MISS HOLLIS: No, your Honour.

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mr. Mrkalj being

20 permanently excused?

21 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Mrkalj, you are permanently excused. You are now

23 free to leave. Thank you for coming today.

24 (The witness withdrew)

25 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, we would call Hasiba Harambasic.

Page 3691


2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mrs. Harambasic, would you take the oath that is

3 being given to you, please?

4 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak the

5 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

6 (The witness was sworn)

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated.

8 Examined by MISS HOLLIS

9 Q. Would you please state your name?

10 A. Hasiba Harambasic.

11 Q. What is your date of birth?

12 A. 28th March 1942.

13 Q. What is your nationality or ethnic group?

14 A. I am a Bosniak.

15 Q. What is your religion?

16 A. Islamic, Islam.

17 Q. What was your place of birth?

18 A. I was born in Cazin.

19 Q. What part of Bosnia is that located?

20 A. In western Bosnia.

21 Q. Was your maiden name Pozderac?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Was that family name well known in Bosnia?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Why was it well known?

Page 3692

1 A. Because they were statesmen.

2 Q. What was your prior occupation?

3 A. I was a dentist.

4 Q. Did you practise dentistry in the town of Prijedor and also live in

5 the town of Prijedor?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How long did you live there and practise dentistry there?

8 A. 29 years.

9 Q. Where did you work in the town of Prijedor?

10 A. In the medical centre called Dr. Mladin Stojanovic in Prijedor.

11 Q. You worked there until when?

12 A. Until I was put in the Omarska camp, 22nd June 1992.

13 Q. What part of the town of Prijedor did you live in?

14 A. The centre of town.

15 Q. The section of Prijedor that you lived in, what was the ethnic

16 composition of that section?

17 A. Mixed.

18 Q. Was there any section of Prijedor that was predominantly Muslim?

19 A. Yes, Stari Grad, the old town.

20 Q. Did you ever visit Kozarac?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. Why would you go there?

23 A. Yes, very often.

24 Q. Why would you go there?

25 A. I had good friends there.

Page 3693

1 Q. As a result of your profession and also as a result of living in

2 Prijedor for so many years, did you know many people from the Prijedor

3 area?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. Did you know many of the community political and professional

6 leaders?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. To your knowledge, did Serb leaders in the town of Prijedor know of

9 your family, the Pozderac family?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In the elections that were held in Bosnia in the early 1990s what

12 party won in the town of Prijedor?

13 A. The SDA, the Party of Democratic Action.

14 Q. Were you in Prijedor when the Serbs took over control of the town on

15 30th April 1992?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. After this Serb takeover in Prijedor, did you see an increase in the

18 number of men in uniform in Prijedor?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. After the takeover was a work obligation levied on non-Serbs in

21 Prijedor?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Who levied this work obligation on non-Serbs?

24 A. There were announcements on the radio and TV, Banja Luka television

25 studio. The order was that we must report to our work obligation.

Page 3694

1 Q. On whose authority were these announcements made?

2 A. On the authority of the Crisis Staff of the city of Prijedor.

3 Q. What was this work obligation, what did it mean?

4 A. I had to go to work. I would go there and I would sit in my surgery.

5 I did not do any work.

6 Q. Were you allowed to work?

7 A. No.

8 Q. After the Serb takeover in the town, did you notice an increase in

9 the number of checkpoints in the town?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What did you observe ---

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. -- and where did you observe these checkpoints?

14 A. The checkpoints were in all institutions, at the health centre, in

15 the bank, in the municipality building, in the streets, in the

16 approaches to buildings -- all over the place.

17 Q. Did you know any of the people who manned these checkpoints?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. The people that you knew, what was their ethnic group or nationality?

20 A. Serbs.

21 Q. These people who manned the checkpoints, what did they wear?

22 A. They wore different uniforms.

23 Q. What types of uniforms?

24 A. They were camouflage uniforms, JNA uniforms, black uniforms,

25 camouflage uniforms with red berets, uniforms with black hats, with

Page 3695

1 things hanging from the hat ---

2 Q. I would like to direct your attention to ---

3 A. -- tassles.

4 Q. -- on about 30th May, on that date, did the inhabitants of Prijedor

5 receive ultimatums?

6 A. Yes. We had to put out white flags on our balconies, on our fences,

7 houses. In case we had to go out into the town, we had to put on

8 white arm bands on our left arm.

9 Q. After that date, did you continue to live in your home until 22nd

10 June?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. During that time, from about 30th May until 22nd June, did you see

13 any sections of the city damaged or destroyed?

14 A. Yes, the whole of Stari Grad was burned. The street across from my

15 place. There were places of worship demolished, destroyed. Many

16 houses had been destroyed.

17 Q. The street across from your place that was destroyed, to your

18 knowledge, what was the ethnic group of the people who lived in those

19 homes?

20 A. Muslims.

21 Q. The places of worship that were demolished or destroyed, these were

22 places of worship for what religion?

23 A. Muslim places of worship.

24 Q. Again during this same time period between about 30th May and 22nd

25 June, was your home searched?

Page 3696

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How many times?

3 A. Four times.

4 Q. Did you recognise any of the people who came to search your home?

5 A. No, I did not.

6 Q. Did they tell you what they were searching for?

7 A. They were searching for weapons.

8 Q. Did you have any weapons in your home?

9 A. No.

10 Q. What did they take from your home?

11 A. They took all gold objects, money and other valuables.

12 Q. These men who came to your home during these four visits, did you

13 recognise the dialect of these men?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Were all of these men speaking a local dialect?

16 A. No.

17 Q. What other dialect?

18 A. Serbian, from Serbia proper.

19 Q. Were you able to lock your doors to keep these people out?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Why not?

22 A. Because otherwise they would have shot at the door.

23 Q. Beginning on 30th May, did you see people being taken away by Serbs?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you recognise any of the people being taken away?

Page 3697

1 A. Yes, many of my friends were taken away.

2 Q. What was the ethnic group of these people you recognised?

3 A. Muslims.

4 Q. Were any of these people you recognised in or had they been in

5 positions of leadership in the community?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I would like to draw your attention to 22nd June 1992. On that date

8 were you arrested at your home?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Who arrested you?

11 A. I was arrested by three soldiers who came to my house in camouflage

12 uniforms. One had remained behind on the staircase and two came into

13 my dining room. They told me to get ready, not to take anything

14 along, that I am just going for an interview to the SUP.

15 Q. Did you recognise any of these men who came to arrest you?

16 A. No, I did not.

17 Q. How were you taken to the SUP for this interview?

18 A. I was taken to the SUP in a police car, which had the popular name

19 Black Maria.

20 Q. At the SUP were you interviewed or interrogated?

21 A. I was interrogated.

22 Q. How many times were you interrogated?

23 A. Three or four times.

24 Q. Who did the interrogation?

25 A. Mirjana Jankovic did the interrogation.

Page 3698

1 Q. Did you know her?

2 A. Only by sight.

3 Q. Did you know what her position had been in Prijedor?

4 A. Yes, she was a lawyer and a SUP inspector.

5 Q. Did she tell you why you were there being interviewed?

6 A. She had charges written in front of her. The first charge I was

7 charged with that I was a friend of Zeljko Sikora who had found an

8 injection for sterilizing Serbian women and baptising the children.

9 The second charge was Dr. Dzafic in the prosthetic department, that I

10 had been buying weapons in the Cazinska Krajina. The third was that

11 Hakija Pozderac was leading the Green Berets in Cazin. The fourth

12 one, that my daughter was a member of the Green Berets. The fifth

13 one, that my son had not served in the Serbian Army. The sixth was

14 that I had said that I would like to see all Serbs floating along the

15 Sana River.

16 Q. This Zeljko Sikora, who was he?

17 A. Zeljko Sikora was a general practitioner. He was specialising in

18 gynecology.

19 Q. The person you identified as Dr. Dzafic, what was his profession?

20 A. Dr. Dzafic was a specialist in prosthetic dentistry, in the dentistry

21 department, my superior.

22 Q. These two men, what was their ethnic group?

23 A. Sikora was a Croat and Dr. Dzafic, Muslim.

24 Q. Who was that Hakija Pozderac?

25 A. Hakija Pozderac was my uncle. He used to be a statesman, the

Page 3699

1 Minister of Foreign Affairs of the entire former Yugoslavia. He was

2 in charge of the Olympic Games. He was the Secretary of the

3 Association for Physical Culture of Yugoslavia, was also the President

4 of the Association of Veterans of Yugoslavia.

5 Q. Had you been involved with the dentist, Dr. Dzafic, in buying

6 weapons?

7 A. No, no. I had -- I have never been involved.

8 Q. During these interrogations were you beaten?

9 A. Yes, I was.

10 Q. What was done to you?

11 A. I was beaten badly. She pulled my hair. She slapped my face, and

12 she hit me so badly that one of my teeth was knocked out.

13 Q. Did you spend the night at the police station?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. Were any other detainees there with you?

16 A. Yes, Zlata Cikota was together with me.

17 Q. Did you know her?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. What was her profession?

20 A. She was an engineer.

21 Q. What was her ethnic group?

22 A. Muslim.

23 Q. While you were in the police station, did any Serb official visit you

24 there?

25 A. Yes, in the morning at 7.15 the following day, I was visited by my

Page 3700

1 colleague, Srda Srdic. He used to be the President of the Serbian

2 Democratic Party in Prijedor and told me that I was going to Omarska.

3 Q. Were you and Zlata Cikota taken to Omarska from the SUP on 23rd June?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How were you taken there?

6 A. In the same vehicle, the Black Maria.

7 Q. Who took you?

8 A. By Bato Kovacevic.

9 Q. Did you know him?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What was his position?

12 A. He was a SUP policeman.

13 Q. What was his ethnic group?

14 A. Serb.

15 Q. When you arrived at Omarska where were you taken?

16 A. When I arrived in Omarska I was taken to the central building.

17 Q. Could you use the pointer, please, and show the Court, point to the

18 building you call the central building? This is the smaller building

19 to your right of the large, long, red building?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is this the building that had administrative offices and a

22 restaurant?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. When you were taken to that building, were you asked questions there?

25 A. No, I just gave personal information.

Page 3701

1 Q. When the people asking this personal information spoke to you, did

2 they use your married name or your family name?

3 A. Both, they used both names.

4 Q. How long were you held at Omarska?

5 A. 42 days.

6 Q. Do you recall about two days or three days after coming to the camp a

7 man at the camp introducing himself to you as Zeljko Meakic?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. Had you known him from before the camp?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Did you see him often at the camp?

12 A. Yes, every day and every night.

13 Q. Did he have a particular room that he used in the camp?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In what building was that room located?

16 A. (The witness indicated on the model).

17 Q. In this building you referred to as the central building?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. The guards at the camp, what did they wear?

20 A. All kinds of uniforms, camouflage uniforms. Half wore uniforms and

21 half civilian clothes. They were dressed, all of them.

22 Q. What type of weapons did they have, if you know?

23 A. Short automatic rifles and the big rifles.

24 Q. Did you ever see a machine gun positioned while you were at the camp?

25 A. Yes, from our room a guard, from that place he could come to our room

Page 3702

1 just by jumping over ---

2 Q. So the machine ---

3 A. -- the fence.

4 Q. -- gun position was on the roof of the central building toward the

5 front of the building?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you know a Dr. Ivic?

8 A. Yes, he was my colleague.

9 Q. What was his position in Prijedor?

10 A. He was the head of the Emergency Department in Prijedor.

11 Q. Did he ever come to Omarska camp while you were there?

12 A. Yes, very often.

13 Q. Did you know a man named Mico who was a medical technician or a

14 nurse?

15 A. Yes, well.

16 Q. Would you describe this Mico?

17 A. Yes. Medium height, sturdily built, without one arm.

18 Q. Mico and Dr. Ivic, what was their ethnic group?

19 A. Serbian.

20 Q. During the times that you saw Mico and Dr. Ivic in Omarska camp, did

21 you ever see them give any medical care to any of the detainees there?

22 A. No, never.

23 Q. While you were at Omarska, what building were you kept in?

24 A. In the central building.

25 Q. You do not need to point now. I will ask you to do some of that in a

Page 3703

1 moment. During the night where were you kept?

2 A. I was kept in the second room on the left-hand side upstairs.

3 Q. This would be on the first floor of this building?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Where were you kept during the day?

6 A. The whole time we were in the lunch room, in the dining room.

7 Q. About what time would you go upstairs at night?

8 A. It depended on the guard, from 9.00, at 9.00, half past nine

9 or 10.00 at the latest.

10 Q. When would you come down stairs in the morning?

11 A. Between 5.00 and half past 5.

12 Q. Were other women kept in the camp with you?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you recall roughly how many other women were kept in the camp?

15 A. 37 and a Serb.

16 Q. Where were these other women kept?

17 A. There were 19 women in our room and the remaining women were in the

18 other room. Only one woman was never with us. Her name was Hajra

19 Hadzic. She was in the white house all the time.

20 Q. You have indicated that one of the women there was a Serbian woman.

21 What was the ethnic group of the other women, if you know?

22 A. There were three Croats and the others were Muslim.

23 Q. While you were at Omarska, do you recall a woman there who was named

24 Azra?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 3704

1 Q. Did you see any injuries or wounds on Azra?

2 A. Yes. She came to Omarska because she had been wounded. She came

3 wounded.

4 Q. What type of wounds did she have?

5 A. She said that she had been hit by a shell and that her wounds were

6 from this hit by a shell.

7 Q. Do you recall a woman in Omarska named Sadeta Medunjanin?

8 A. Yes, I do quite clearly. She was in my room.

9 Q. Had she been kept in any other location prior to coming to your room?

10 A. Yes, she was in the white house.

11 Q. Did you see any injuries on her?

12 A. Yes, she had a wound on her right hand and up to her elbows and above

13 the knees. She had wounds from cigarettes being put out on her skin.

14 Q. To your knowledge, were other members of her family also at Omarska

15 camp?

16 A. Yes, her husband was there too, Beco Medunjanin, and her son, Anes

17 Medunjanin.

18 Q. While you were in the camp, did you ever learn what happened to Beco

19 Medunjanin?

20 A. He disappeared.

21 Q. Do you know what position Sadeta and her husband, Beco, had held in

22 the Prijedor community?

23 A. Beco Medunjanin was in charge of the Secretariat of National Defence

24 and his wife, Sadeta, was a teacher in Kozarac.

25 Q. While you were kept in the central building, did you ever see male

Page 3705

1 detainees who were also kept in that building?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. Where were these detainees kept?

4 A. They were kept in different places, in the building, in the glassed

5 building, and in the evening those who had been on the pista would

6 come to the dining room.

7 Q. You said they were kept in the "glassed building", what did you call

8 that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What did you call that, that area?

11 A. It was an area which had a glass door so we women we called it a

12 "glass house".

13 Q. While you were at Omarska did you have to perform any duties in the

14 camp?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What duties did you have to perform?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What duties did you have to perform?

19 A. We cleaned the place and washed. We did a lot of dish washing, about

20 3,100 pieces every day and for a time, for about 10 days, 10 or 15

21 days, I was in charge of distributing the food.

22 Q. You say that you cleaned, what areas did you clean, both ground floor

23 and first floor?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. I would like to ask you some questions about the work you did in the

Page 3706

1 restaurant concerning the food. While you were at Omarska how often

2 were the detainees there fed?

3 A. One meal only.

4 Q. What kind of food did they receive?

5 A. Horrible, bad. They would be given -- first, we were given some

6 vessels and there would be some water in it, some soup, with two or

7 three cabbage leaves or, perhaps, one, two to three potatoes. If it

8 was beans, it was very watery and it was usually rotten. Most of the

9 food was already in a state of decay.

10 Q. Did you ever see any of the detainees become ill immediately after

11 eating the food?

12 A. Yes, large numbers.

13 Q. What amount of food would they receive?

14 A. Half a bowl, half a ladle, perhaps less than half a plate.

15 Q. How was this food delivered to the restaurant building?

16 A. It was brought in a yellow TAM vehicle every day.

17 Q. Do you happen to recall the number that was on the licence plate of

18 that vehicle?

19 A. Yes, 355-46.

20 Q. I am sorry, you said 355-46?

21 A. No, 545-46.

22 Q. That is a pretty minor detail. How were you able to remember such a

23 detail?

24 A. I kept remembering it.

25 Q. Why?

Page 3707

1 A. For my own sake.

2 MISS HOLLIS: At this time if Prosecution Exhibit 232, that is document

3 Z327, could be brought up on the computer screen? Perhaps while that

4 is being done, your Honour, we could move on? (To the witness): Do

5 you know who the drivers were of this vehicle, this truck, that was

6 used to deliver food?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What are the names, if you recall them?

9 A. Pero Mrdja, Kobas, Mirko Dragan, Brane Drlic, but Pero Mrdja and

10 Kobas usually drove the truck.

11 Q. Did you know these people from before you were in the camp?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Was this truck used for any other purpose other than to deliver food?

14 A. Yes, it took away the dead.

15 MISS HOLLIS: At this time, perhaps, the document could be called up on to

16 the screen? Again that is Prosecution Exhibit 232, document 20-7.

17 (To the witness): Can you look at this vehicle and tell us if you

18 recognise this vehicle?

19 A. Yes, I do. That is the truck.

20 Q. That is the truck that you were describing?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. When this food was delivered to the detainees, how long did they have

23 to eat their meal?

24 A. Three minutes.

25 Q. What would happen if they took longer than that?

Page 3708

1 A. Then they had to spill it away.

2 Q. Did all of the people get something to eat each day?

3 A. No, very often there was not enough food. So that sometimes more

4 than half of the detainees would go on without food.

5 Q. Did you ever see any of the detainees beaten as they came in to eat?

6 A. Yes, every day.

7 Q. The people that you saw come through the line to get their meals, did

8 you notice any injuries or bruises or wounds on these people?

9 A. Yes. Yes.

10 Q. What did you observe about their physical condition?

11 A. They looked terrible, emaciated, thin, dirty, with lice, beaten up,

12 and they had open wounds all over their bodies, arms broken. A

13 specific thing was that whenever I looked at people, they would have

14 enormous bruises around their eyes, so-called natural eye glasses.

15 Q. Was there any significance to these enormous bruises around their

16 eyes?

17 A. Yes, they came from blows into the head.

18 Q. You indicated that you had to clean rooms in the restaurant building,

19 the central building. Would you find anything ---

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. -- unusual in those rooms when you cleaned them?

22 A. Yes, we came across all sorts of objects. We found -- we would come

23 across blood, bits of teeth, then huge metal rods or cables and then

24 we would find there pieces of skin, all sorts of objects, urine. You

25 could find everything in those rooms.

Page 3709

1 Q. These rooms where you found such things, where were these rooms

2 located, on the ground floor, the first floor or both?

3 A. No, those rooms were on the first floor.

4 Q. At this time, your Honour, if I could ask the technician to set up

5 the camera very quickly? I would like the witness to point out some

6 locations in this central building.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes. Can you do that quickly?

8 MISS HOLLIS: Ma'am, if you could take off those headphones after I tell

9 you what to do -- put them back on for a moment -- after I tell you

10 what I would like you to do, I will ask you to take those off. I

11 would like you to come around to the front side of the model. You

12 will see headphones with the extension wire. I would ask you to put

13 those headphones on as soon as we have the camera set up here.

14 Judge Stephen, I apologise for any obstruction here. We will

15 not be long.

16 If we could have the roof taken off the restaurant building

17 for the first floor as well as for the restaurant area? Thank you.

18 Ma'am, if you could please come around, put on these headphones and I

19 am going to ask you to point to certain rooms. You will see there are

20 numbers in those rooms, so after you point to the room, if you could

21 tell us the number? If you could now come around and put these other

22 headphones on? Ma'am, if you could first point out for us the room in

23 which you slept? If you could first point out for us the room in

24 which you slept?

25 A. B11.

Page 3710

1 Q. Could you put the pointer in there again? Is there any way with that

2 camera we can get closer in on that? Thank you. If you could point

3 out the room that other women slept in?

4 A. B10.

5 Q. If you could, please, point out the rooms in which you would find the

6 blood and teeth and other objects?

7 A. It was B9, B10, B11, B3.

8 Q. Was there a room there that Zeljko Meakic used?

9 A. Yes, it was this large room, B1, it had a door here, and by the wall,

10 some 10 centimetres from there, there was something with bed linen --

11 [We can barely hear the witness, I am sorry].

12 Q. When I ask you the question you are going to have to speak into the

13 microphone behind you. Would you please point again to the area where

14 the machine gun position was? Could you point to the room through

15 which the person gained access to that position?

16 A. It was room B12.

17 Q. Could you point to that, please? Were there any bathrooms up on that

18 floor?

19 A. Yes. There were two bathrooms. The first one was for the police,

20 B7, and the other one was ours, B6.

21 Q. Was there any room up there that was used by the shift commanders or

22 the guards?

23 A. Yes, across our room, the room No. 5, B5.

24 Q. In the hallway was there any position that there was normally a table

25 and a chair or chairs?

Page 3711

1 A. Yes, in the corner here in the corridor there was a table with three

2 chairs and another one in another corner.

3 Q. Can you tell us where that was positioned in relation to the

4 stairway?

5 A. As you enter, to the left from the staircase.

6 Q. Can you show us the area that you worked in during the day?

7 A. Here in the dining room.

8 Q. When you would wash dishes, what area were you in?

9 A. Here, yes, also here, in the same room here in the corner.

10 Q. So this is a small area that is partially set off toward the back of

11 the restaurant area?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. That is in A22?

14 A. A22.

15 Q. You mentioned that there were some men kept in the restaurant

16 building that were kept in what you called the glass house. Could you

17 show us where that is?

18 A. Yes, A14.

19 Q. Was there a building in the camp that you referred to as the red

20 house?

21 A. Yes, it was this.

22 Q. You are pointing to the small red building that is across from the

23 far end of the long red hangar?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. It is down from the white house.

Page 3712

1 THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry, I cannot hear the witness.

2 MISS HOLLIS: That was down from the white house, is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you, Ma'am, if you could resume your seat? We will not need

5 that camera. Ma'am, while you were in Omarska, you said there was a

6 truck that was used to take away bodies. How often did you see

7 corpses while you were in the camp?

8 A. Every day.

9 Q. Was there ever an occasion that you saw a larger truck used to carry

10 away dead bodies?

11 A. Yes, towards the end of July.

12 Q. What did you see on that occasion?

13 A. As I was coming down the stairs, there was a huge glass and I saw a

14 big truck called dump truck full of corpses. When the guards realised

15 that we were looking in that direction, he turned us back to our

16 rooms.

17 Q. So you were coming down these steps that are shown on the rounded

18 portion?

19 A. Down these stairs, yes.

20 Q. You were able to look through that glass to see the truck?

21 A. Yes, yes, a window, a glass window.

22 Q. On the night before you saw this, had you heard any unusual noises or

23 seen anything unusual at the camp?

24 A. Yes, throughout the night we heard screams, moans, shots, so that

25 nobody slept at night.

Page 3713

1 Q. Were you later that next day after you had seen this large truck

2 eventually taken down into the restaurant area?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you see any unusual activity at the white house that day?

5 A. Yes, in front of the white house there was -- they were washing the

6 whole white house with a hose.

7 MISS HOLLIS: At this time I would ask that document No. Z3-20-17 be

8 called up and ask that that be marked as Prosecution Exhibit next in

9 line which will be 251 for identification.

10 A. Yes.

11 MISS HOLLIS (To the witness): Ma'am, looking at this picture, you see a

12 large yellow truck there?

13 A. A yellow one, yes.

14 Q. Do you recognise that type of truck?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is that the type of truck that had the bodies in it on that occasion?

17 A. Yes.

18 MISS HOLLIS: At this time I would offer Prosecution Exhibit 251 for

19 identification.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

21 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 251 will be admitted.

23 MISS HOLLIS: We do have a hard copy, if the Court wishes that the photo

24 itself be put into evidence. All right, your Honour. Thank you.

25 Ma'am, to your knowledge ----

Page 3714

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will leave this in evidence. It is marked as

2 251, but if you have an extra copy, sometimes you have given us an

3 extra copy, so if you have an extra copy for our use, that would be

4 helpful.

5 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour, we do.


7 MISS HOLLIS: Ma'am, without naming any of the women, while you were in

8 Omarska were women taken from your room at night?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How often were women taken out of your room?

11 A. Almost every night.

12 Q. Who took them out?

13 A. Guards.

14 Q. Do you recall the names of any of the guards who took them out?

15 A. Yes, Krkan Mladjo, Krkan, Lugar, Nedeljko, Zeljko Meakic.

16 Q. Again, without naming the names of the women, did any of these women

17 ever tell you what happened to them when they were taken out?

18 A. Yes, they were raped.

19 Q. While you were in Omarska do you recall the night when Sadeta

20 Medunjanin and a woman named Edna Dautovic were taken from the camp?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did either of those women sleep in the same room with you?

23 A. Yes, Sadeta Medunjanin did.

24 Q. You have indicated earlier that you knew Sadeta Medunjanin prior to

25 coming to the camp.

Page 3715

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you also know Edna Dautovic prior coming to the camp?

3 A. Yes, I knew Edna Dautovic well. She was my son's colleague. They

4 together attended the electrical technical school and they together

5 matriculated.

6 Q. To your knowledge, what was her ethnic group?

7 A. Muslim.

8 Q. Do you recall what her age was?

9 A. Edna was 21 years of age and Sadeta, 46.

10 Q. On this night that these two women were taken from the camp, what do

11 you recall happening?

12 A. They were called out the previous day. That evening a bus came on to

13 the -- into the camp grounds. It was a blue bus, and it had in white

14 letters "Una Trans Bihac Bosanska Krupa". On a part of the bus in

15 black letters it said "Seselj".

16 Q. How were you able to see this bus?

17 A. Through the window of the bathroom in the WC.

18 Q. Which bathroom are you talking about? The one that the guards used?

19 A. Our bathroom. No, our bathroom where we took our baths and washed

20 ourselves.

21 Q. Did you actually see those women as they went to that bus?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you see any camp personnel there at the bus?

24 A. Yes, almost all the guards and the list was read out by Drago Prcac

25 and Zeljko Meakic was standing by.

Page 3716

1 Q. In addition to these two women, were any other detainees put on that

2 bus?

3 A. Yes, I knew Adem and I knew Samir Resic.

4 Q. These two men that you knew, what was their ethnic group?

5 A. Muslim.

6 Q. Was there anything said about why these people were being put on this

7 bus?

8 A. Yes, they were to be exchanged in Bihac.

9 Q. After the night that you saw these two women being put on that bus,

10 have you seen them or heard from them since that time?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Since you left Bosnia, have you been in contact with the families of

13 these two women?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. To your knowledge, have the families of these two women ever heard

16 from or been reunited with these women?

17 A. No.

18 MISS HOLLIS: If I could have at this time this document marked as the

19 Prosecution Exhibit next in order which will be Prosecution Exhibit

20 252 for identification? If you would please show that to the Defence

21 and then to the witness? If the elmo has been set up again, could

22 that first be given to the witness?

23 (To the witness): Ma'am, do you recognise the woman in that picture?

24 A. Yes, this is Edna Dautovic.

25 Q. Could we put that photograph on the overhead, please? For the Court,

Page 3717

1 could you point to Edna Dautovic, please?

2 A. (The witness indicated on the photograph).

3 Q. Thank you. Is it on video?

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It is on mine. It is fine.

5 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, ma'am. If you would be seated, please? I would

6 tender Prosecution Exhibit 252.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

8 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 252 will be admitted.

10 MISS HOLLIS: We have provided a copy of that to the Defence and have an

11 additional copy, if necessary, for the Court.

12 (To the witness): While you were in the camp at Omarska, did you see any

13 of the Muslim men who had been community leaders in Prijedor in that

14 camp?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. While there do you recall seeing Braco Ceric?

17 A. I saw Ceric called "Braco". He was the President of the Court. I

18 saw Mohamed Cehajic, Professor, who was the Mayor of the municipality

19 of Prijedor. I saw Idriz Jakupovic who was the head of the Red Cross.

20 I saw Professor Crnkic, Professor Puskar, Professor Hadzalic,

21 Professor Mujagic, Dr. Eso Sadikovic. I saw many policemen, all

22 businessmen, Dedo Crnalic, Asaf Kapetanovic, Sead Ramadanovic.

23 Q. Ma'am, when you saw these leaders in the camp, did you see any signs

24 of beatings or injuries or wounds to these people?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3718

1 Q. What types of injuries did you see?

2 A. Those were open wounds. One of the doctors had his arm broken.

3 Idriz Jakupovic had his arm broken. Professor Husein Trnkic who

4 taught mathematics had his clavicle, his collar bone, broken and also

5 had injuries on the wound. Ado Ekimovic and his father hardly had a

6 clear spot on their faces. So that one could see their faces and they

7 were all people of distinction.

8 Q. Ma'am, do you know a man named Dule or Dusko Tadic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. How did you know him?

11 A. From Kozarac.

12 Q. How did you happen to know him or know of him?

13 A. I learnt about him because my relatives were in his karate club.

14 Q. Did they ever point him out to you or only speak about him?

15 A. No, they pointed him out to me.

16 Q. How long before the war, how many years before the war, had you known

17 Dule Tadic, Dusko Tadic? How many years before the war had you known

18 Dule or Dusko Tadic?

19 A. About three or four years.

20 Q. How would you characterise your knowledge of him? Would you say you

21 were friends, that you recognised him when you saw him?

22 A. Acquaintances only.

23 Q. During these years that you knew him before the war, how many times

24 would you say in total you had seen him?

25 A. 20 times or thereabouts maybe.

Page 3719

1 Q. Where would you see him?

2 A. In Kozarac, in the street, walking, in Prijedor I also saw him.

3 Q. Before the attacks began in opstina Prijedor when you saw Dusko

4 Tadic, did you ever see him with a beard?

5 A. No.

6 Q. When was the last time you saw him before your arrest?

7 A. Sometime in the middle of June in Prijedor at the marketplace.

8 Q. When you saw him on this occasion, did he have a beard or was he

9 clean shaven?

10 A. Clean shaven.

11 Q. In June '92 at the marketplace he was clean shaven?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you know what his occupation was?

14 A. Yes, he had a coffee bar.

15 Q. Was there anything unusual about the way he walked?

16 A. Yes, since he knew how to put his chest forward and then he walked

17 like this, from one side to the other.

18 Q. You mean he walked side to side?

19 A. Yes.

20 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I am going to move to another matter. This

21 might be an appropriate time to break?

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.

23 (4.00 p.m.)

24 (Adjourned for a short time)

25 (4.20 p.m.)

Page 3720

1 (In the absence of the witness)

2 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, there is a matter that I would wish to go into

3 with this witness that raises a question of law that needs to be

4 determined before I would pursue that line of questioning. So I would

5 raise that now so that the Defence would have an opportunity to

6 object, if they choose to.

7 In the direct examination, the witness had indicated that she

8 saw Dusko Tadic in June 92 at the marketplace in Prijedor and that at

9 that time he was clean shaven. In a statement ----

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You did not like that answer.

11 MISS HOLLIS: No, ma'am, I must be honest. In a statement she had given

12 us previously she had indicated that at that time when she saw him he

13 had a beard. It would be my intention to ask her if she recalled

14 giving that statement, if she recalled saying in that statement that

15 he had a beard and then to ask her which is correct, whether he was

16 clean shaven or had a beard.


18 MR. KAY: Yes. The issue here is an interesting one, as I know

19 jurisdictions vary in their approach to this matter. What the

20 Prosecution would be seeking to do is cross-examine their own witness

21 on the previous statement. Miss Hollis was good enough to raise this

22 matter with me during the short adjournment and provided me with a

23 copy of the statement this time. My submission to the Court is that

24 this is really a province for cross-examination by me if I choose it,

25 and seeking to impeach her own witness in this fashion is not

Page 3721

1 something that we would support.


3 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour. I believe that, as Defence counsel noted,

4 this issue is decided differently in different jurisdictions. I know

5 for some years many years ago in my jurisdiction and in the federal

6 jurisdiction, I believe, in the United States you could not do that.

7 It has been sometime now that we are allowed to do that, to ask them

8 about prior statements that are inconsistent with their testimony.

9 I am certainly not treating her as a hostile witness, but I

10 would agree that in the sense of the word that we normally talk about

11 impeaching a witness, in a sense I would be doing that by asking her

12 these questions. I would suggest, in the light of the other

13 conversations we have had in this courtroom about approaches taken to

14 evidence, that would be an appropriate thing to do. I know, however,

15 as I say, there are different approaches taken so I wanted to raise it

16 with the Defence and give them the opportunity to object.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: As far as Mr. Kay, your suggestion that this is a

18 matter for cross-examination and for you to decide whether you want to

19 raise it or not on cross-examination; I suppose, as a tactical matter,

20 the party offering the witness at least should be given the

21 opportunity to decide how they want to approach it. In other words,

22 it is Miss Hollis's problem and to say it may not be a problem because

23 of how you might handle it on cross-examination really I do not think

24 solves the problem. The real problem is whether or not in our

25 Tribunal the witness, under certain circumstances, should be subject

Page 3722

1 to either impeachment or however you want to call it,

2 cross-examination, in the face of this. There are many approaches.

3 Let me confer with my Judges and see. Perhaps the witness can

4 be asked if she recalls making a statement and then whether or not

5 this statement refreshes her memory.

6 MR. KAY: Yes.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: But you are right, it would be an impeachment of the

8 witness because there is no indication that her memory needs

9 refreshing at this point.

10 MR. KAY: If I could just raise one matter, your Honour? I do not think

11 that this is a witness that would have reached hostility and shown

12 animus as against the Prosecution in relation to her evidence.

13 MISS HOLLIS: We agree with that.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: As far as I am concerned, this little bit, whether

15 it was a beard and whether she said at one point that he had a beard

16 and now she is saying, no, that he was clean shaven, perhaps in the

17 scheme of things it is not going to be tremendously important, but

18 then I do not know because I do not know where you are and where you

19 are coming. So let us see a moment.

20 (The learned Judges conferred)

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We have determined that we will allow Miss Hollis to

22 question the witness -- I do not want to use the word "impeach" nor do

23 I want to use the word "cross-examination" -- but bring to the

24 attention of the witness the fact that she had given this statement

25 prior to her testimony today and in the statement she then said that

Page 3723

1 he had a beard. Is that right or is it the other way around ---

2 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: -- had a beard. So that you will be able to do

4 that. That being done, again we will consider the fact that Miss

5 Hollis has had to do this as affecting the weight that should be given

6 to the testimony. In other words, if she says on direct he was clean

7 shaven and now, with the benefit of the statement, the witness says

8 that she at the time saw him with a beard, then the question in our

9 mind is what weight should we give to her testimony regarding the

10 condition of Mr. Tadic's face, whether it was clean shaven or a beard.

11 MR. KAY: I am grateful for the Court's indication on that matter.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Would you ask the witness then to come

13 forward?

14 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour.


16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, you may resume.

17 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour. (To the witness): Ma'am, if I

18 could return to a matter we were discussing just prior to the break?

19 Prior to the break you had testified that when you saw Dusko Tadic in

20 June 1992 in the marketplace in Prijedor at that time he was clean

21 shaven. Do you recall giving a statement to representatives of the

22 Tribunal?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. In that statement do you recall discussing the time in June 1992 when

25 you saw Dusko Tadic in the marketplace?

Page 3724

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In that statement do you recall indicating that at that time in June

3 1992 in the marketplace Mr. Tadic had a beard?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. As I indicated, on direct you have stated that he was clean shaven.

6 Could you please tell the Court what is your recollection? On that

7 date in June 1992, was Mr. Tadic clean shaven or, to your

8 recollection, did he have a beard?

9 A. He had a beard.

10 Q. Thank you. During the time that you were in the Omarska camp did you

11 ever see Dusko Tadic in the camp?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. How many times did you see him there?

14 A. Twice.

15 Q. When was the first time that you saw him?

16 A. About mid July.

17 Q. Where were you at the time that you saw him in mid July?

18 A. I was in the restaurant.

19 Q. When you saw Mr. Tadic at that time what was he doing?

20 A. He was walking across the pista.

21 Q. At the time that you saw him did you have a full face view of him, a

22 profile view or both?

23 A. Both, because he turned towards the pista and towards the restaurant.

24 Q. How far away would Dusko Tadic have been from you on that occasion

25 when you saw him?

Page 3725

1 A. About three or four metres.

2 Q. At that time what was he wearing?

3 A. Blue jeans.

4 Q. At that time did you see any weapons?

5 A. Yes, he had a pistol attached to his blue jeans.

6 Q. When you saw him on that occasion was there anyone walking with him?

7 A. No.

8 Q. For how long a period of time did you see him?

9 A. A couple of minutes, the time it took him to cross the pista.

10 Q. On that occasion when you saw him, did Dusko Tadic have any facial

11 hair or was he clean shaven?

12 A. He had a beard.

13 Q. What time of the day or night was this?

14 A. About 1 o'clock in the afternoon, half past one, roughly.

15 Q. So it was during the day time?

16 A. Yes, yes, the day time.

17 Q. At the time that you saw him was there anything obstructing your view

18 of him?

19 A. No.

20 Q. When was the second time that you saw him at Omarska?

21 A. The second time I saw him was on 23rd July 1992.

22 Q. Are you able to give a specific date?

23 A. I had a calendar on my person and I used to cross the days that had

24 gone by and that day, I circled that day on my calendar.

25 Q. What did the circle signify?

Page 3726

1 A. The circle signified the date that was particularly meaningful to me.

2 Q. On this date, on 23rd July, when you saw him, where were you?

3 A. I was in the dining room.

4 Q. Where was Dusko Tadic when you first saw him?

5 A. He was at the second window. He came by car and stopped next to the

6 second window, on the upper side of the dining room.

7 Q. What did you see after he drove up in a vehicle?

8 A. He came out of the vehicle and another gentleman, the other

9 gentleman. They both walked along the road and then Dusko Tadic

10 stopped with a guard called Joja on the pista and the other gentleman

11 went on towards the path leading to the white house.

12 Q. What did you see then?

13 A. After a couple of minutes of conversation with a heavily built young

14 man, blond, who was wearing glasses, it was a specific dress in a

15 special way, he had a t-shirt with multi-coloured sleeves and the

16 lower part of a camouflage uniform, green, and at the back he had a

17 patch, a brown. When he parted with him, he went on to the path

18 leading to the white house.

19 Q. You say he went on to the path leading to the white house, who are

20 you referring to?

21 A. I am referring to Dusko Tadic.

22 Q. What did you see then?

23 A. Then the inmates started coming out. The first one to come out was

24 Dr. Jusuf Pasic; the second one to come out was an engineer, Nasic;

25 the third one was Zlatan Besirevic who had his hands behind his head;

Page 3727

1 the fourth one was Seljanovic Rufat and the fifth was Enes Begic; the

2 sixth, Agos Zardikovic; the seventh was Crnalic Armin called "Caruga"

3 and then two gentlemen I do not know from that group. Then they

4 walked across the pista. There was Dr. Osman Mahmuljin and Ziko

5 Mahmuljin.

6 Q. These men that you have just mentioned, you mentioned a Dr. Besic,

7 who is Dr. Besic?

8 A. Dr. Begic, Enis, was a surgeon in the health centre in Prijedor.

9 Q. Was there a Dr. Besic?

10 A. No, there is no Besic, it is Begic.

11 Q. These people that you mentioned did you know them from before the

12 camp?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. How did you know them?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How did you know them?

17 A. Those were my good friends. Dr. Osman was my very good friend. Dr.

18 Ziko Mahmuljin was a good friend. Dr. Begic, Enis, the surgeon, was a

19 very good friend of mine because we were born in the same place. Dr.

20 Seljanovic, Rufat, worked with me across from my office in the

21 surgery, and I knew engineer Zlatan Besirevic, I had known him very

22 well. He was a family friend. I also knew Armin Crnalic called

23 "Caruga" because he was the owner of a restaurant.

24 Q. What was the ethnic group of all these men that you have just named?

25 A. Muslim.

Page 3728

1 Q. When you saw them moving from various directions across the pista, in

2 what direction did they then move?

3 A. They went on across the pista towards the red house.

4 Q. From the position where you were sitting in the restaurant building,

5 were you able to see all of the way down to this red house?

6 A. Not all of the way, part of the way from the intersection towards the

7 white house, down along that way for about 50 metres I could see.

8 Q. What happened after you saw these men moving toward the red house?

9 A. After about 10 minutes they were followed by Mr. Dule Tadic and the

10 gentleman who accompanied him. After a couple of minutes two guards

11 followed them, two guards followed them.

12 Q. After you saw all of these people going toward the red house, did you

13 see Dusko Tadic again that day?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Where did you see him?

16 A. I saw him coming back from the red house. I followed him with my

17 eyes. He came to a car, got into the car and left.

18 Q. You have indicated that when you first saw Dusko Tadic on that day

19 you saw him at the second window on the side of the restaurant

20 building, is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Are you talking about the side of the restaurant building that is

23 facing toward the Judges?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When you saw him at that time, how far away do you think he was from

Page 3729

1 your position in the restaurant building?

2 A. About five or six metres.

3 Q. Five or six metres from where you were to the second window in the

4 restaurant building?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. As he walked along that building to the area on the pista where he

7 stopped, did you have a full face view of him, a profile view or both?

8 A. Both.

9 Q. When he stopped on the pista and spoke with this person, Joja, how

10 far away do you think Dusko Tadic was from where you were sitting?

11 A. Three or four metres.

12 Q. At that time did you have a full face view, a profile view or both?

13 A. Both.

14 Q. As he walked to the white house and stood at the white house, did you

15 have any view of his face at all, either a profile view or a full face

16 view?

17 A. I did not see him, I saw his face.

18 Q. You saw his face as he stood by the entry sidewalk to the white

19 house?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. During this entire incident this day, how long in total would you say

22 that you saw Dusko Tadic?

23 A. Maybe 15 or 20 minutes.

24 Q. On this date what was Dusko Tadic wearing?

25 A. Camouflage uniform.

Page 3730

1 Q. On this date did he have any weapons?

2 A. Yes, a short automatic gun.

3 Q. To your recollection, on this date was he clean shaven or did he have

4 a beard?

5 A. He had a beard.

6 Q. When you left Omarska camp did all of the women in the camp come with

7 you?

8 A. No.

9 Q. How many women were left at Omarska?

10 A. Five women were left in Omarska.

11 Q. Did two of those women eventually come out?

12 A. Yes, after two weeks after us Sabija Turkanovic came out, then Zdenka

13 Rajkovic and Mugbila Besirevic, Hajra Hadzic and Velida Mahmuljin

14 remained behind.

15 Q. Would you please at this time look around this courtroom and see if

16 you recognise the man you know as Dusko Tadic in the courtroom?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Would you please look at him and point to him?

19 A. (The witness indicated).

20 Q. Could you please tell us where he is sitting?

21 A. At the back row, in the middle.

22 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I would ask you to note a proper identification

23 of the accused?

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, the record will so reflect.

25 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you. Would you please be seated, Mrs. Harambasic.

Page 3731

1 When you left Ormaska, where did you go?

2 A. Into a second camp in Trnopolje.

3 Q. When you were in Trnopolje did you see the Commander of the camp

4 there?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Who was that?

7 A. Slobodan Kuruzovic.

8 Q. Did you know him from before the camp?

9 A. Yes, he used to be the principal of the elementary school, Sesnaesti

10 Maj. His wife used to work with me as a dental assistant.

11 Q. What is his ethnic group?

12 A. Serbian.

13 Q. Where did you go from Trnopolje camp?

14 A. Home.

15 Q. Back to your home in Prijedor?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. How long did you remain in your home in Prijedor?

18 A. Two months.

19 Q. What were the conditions like for you during those two months that

20 you were in Prijedor?

21 A. Horrible. We were not allowed to go out. We were not allowed to

22 lock our doors. We could not buy anything to eat. They kept calling

23 us on the telephone all night. Everybody, all sorts of people came

24 into the house. They seized our car, things. There was abuse, very

25 bad abuse, all the time.

Page 3732

1 Q. How were you eventually able to leave Prijedor?

2 A. I had to leave Prijedor.

3 Q. How were you able to do this?

4 A. I found a gentleman by the name Rajko Maric, because I could not

5 obtain my papers in the regular way, I paid him two and a half

6 thousand German marks and he gave me two, two ID cards in Serbian

7 names. Then he took me in his car with another gentleman, who is an

8 inspector, a SUP inspector, from Prijedor to Banja Luka. From Banja

9 Luka they put me on a bus and I set out towards Vojnic.

10 Q. Did you have to pay any additional ----

11 A. In addition to the two and a half thousand German marks, I gave 500

12 marks to Rajko so that he could pay at checkpoints, so that I could be

13 let through the checkpoint.

14 Q. Prior to the events in opstina Prijedor and the attacks in opstina

15 Prijedor, were you a member of any anti-Serb military or paramilitary

16 organisation?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Were you a member of any organised anti-Serb resistance?

19 A. No.

20 Q. After the beginning of these attacks did you become a member of any

21 such organisation?

22 A. No.

23 MISS HOLLIS: No further questions of this witness.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Cross-examination, Mr. Kay?

25 Cross-examined by MR. KAY

Page 3733

1 Q. You say that you knew Dusko Tadic before the conflict and had seen

2 him some 20 times perhaps. What I would like to know is over what

3 period of time you say that you knew him, for how long?

4 A. About five or six years.

5 Q. Had you ever spoken to him?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Have you ever sat down at a table with him?

8 A. No.

9 Q. The way that you say you came to know him was because relatives of

10 yours had had training at his karate school, is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. The relatives that you say had this training with him, did they live

13 in Kozarac or Prijedor?

14 A. In Kozarac.

15 Q. Am I right in thinking that you lived in Prijedor?

16 A. I had cousins since, not only in Prijedor, but also in Kozarac, in

17 Banja Luka, in all the towns, in all the Bosnian towns.

18 Q. I was actually asking where you lived. Did you live in Prijedor?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When your relatives spoke to you, did they say, "We have karate

21 lessons with a man called Dusko Tadic"?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. But, presumably, they were not with you when you saw him on all those

24 20 occasions?

25 A. They were very often.

Page 3734

1 Q. But that is not every time, is that right?

2 A. Not every time but very often.

3 Q. On those occasions when you were with your relatives, they did not

4 speak to Dusko Tadic?

5 A. No.

6 Q. So the way that this person was pointed out to you was, presumably,

7 in circumstances of passing in the street?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In those circumstances, presumably, that person was of no particular

10 interest to you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. When you say you saw the man Dusko Tadic on those occasions over six

13 years, can you describe what he looked like before the conflict?

14 A. He was a strong man, normal height -- what else can I say?

15 Q. Perhaps you could tell us whether he had a beard or not?

16 A. No, he did not have a beard when I saw him.

17 Q. Can you remember the last time you would have seen him before the

18 conflict?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What date would that have been, what time?

21 A. I do not remember the date.

22 Q. Can you remember perhaps how long before the conflict?

23 A. I do not know.

24 Q. On that occasion when you saw him was he clean shaven?

25 A. No.

Page 3735

1 Q. Did he have a beard?

2 A. Yes, he had a small beard.

3 Q. When you say you saw him after the conflict in Omarska and in the

4 marketplace in Prijedor, your evidence has been that he was with a

5 beard although you have said he was clean shaven?

6 A. No, I said he had a beard.

7 Q. Earlier this afternoon in fact you said he was clean shaven.

8 A. No.

9 Q. Well, we have this recorded which was why ----

10 A. I made a mistake because of the translation.

11 Q. Well, it was not the translation. It was the words that you said.

12 A. OK.

13 Q. Do you speak English at all?

14 A. No.

15 Q. It was the words that you said, that he was clean shaven then, and I

16 wanted to ask you why, that you had said that and then in another

17 statement said he had a beard.

18 A. No, I made a mistake. He did have a beard.

19 Q. Just looking then at the description of the man you say was Dusko

20 Tadic before the conflict, did he have no beard during that period of

21 time, or did he have a beard sometimes?

22 A. He did not have a beard. I never saw him with a beard.

23 Q. So the man you saw after the conflict was looking differently from

24 the man you had seen before?

25 A. Yes, but you can recognise a man by his eyes, by his manner of

Page 3736

1 walking, by height, by the general appearance and not just by whether

2 he has a beard or not.

3 Q. On that occasion that you said that he had a beard after the

4 conflict, was it a beard that also had a moustache?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Well, in the statement you have been referred to by Miss Hollis this

7 afternoon reminding you that actually you said he had a beard and was

8 not clean shaven, you also said he had a moustache. Perhaps you would

9 like to look at it. The passage is here marked in ----

10 A. No. No, I would not look at it.

11 Q. Well, I am sorry, I am going to have to ask that you do. This would

12 be tendering D22, your Honour.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is this the --

14 MR. KAY: This is the statement Miss Hollis had earlier in the

15 Serbo-Croat.


17 MR. KAY: Perhaps you would just read to yourself that passage which has

18 the purple mark beside it.

19 A. Yes. "While I was in the camp a man called Dusko Tadic came to the

20 camp. I had known him before the camp. He was the owner of a coffee

21 bar and a karate expert. He was about 1.85 metres tall or 1.88 with

22 black hair. When I saw him in Omarska he had a beard and a

23 moustache." You asked me just now when I saw him in the marketplace in

24 Prijedor whether he had a beard, a moustache then. You did not ask me

25 whether he a moustache in Omarska.

Page 3737

1 Q. You are able to make that distinction then, are you, between seeing

2 him in Prijedor in the marketplace and seeing him in Omarska ----

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. --- with a moustache or not?

5 A. With a moustache, with a small moustache.

6 Q. Perhaps you can describe for us the length of the beard that you saw

7 him wearing on those occasions?

8 A. To begin with I am not a man and I do not know how a beard grows. It

9 was a short beard. It was not a beard in the conventional sense of

10 the word. I mean, it was not like this and I do not know how it

11 grows. I am not a man.

12 Q. Perhaps you would like to give us an indication of the length of the

13 hair, how many centimetres? You are holding up your fingers. I do

14 not know whether the Court saw that as a representation?

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Will you hold your fingers up again, please, Dr.

16 Harambasic? That is an inch and a half. You will convert it to

17 centimetres, will you not?

18 MR. KAY: That is not --

19 THE WITNESS: Two and a half, two, three centimetres.

20 Q. In those six years that you say you would have seen this man over 20

21 occasions, were they in particular periods of one time or were they

22 spread over the six years?

23 A. Well, I should say spread over that period, often, whenever I came to

24 Kozarac I saw him and I often came to Kozarac. It could have been

25 more times than 20.

Page 3738

1 Q. The clothes that the man was wearing in Omarska on the two occasions

2 that you saw him, can you tell us what clothes they were?

3 A. The first time he had jeans and a dark blue shirt, that is a t-shirt,

4 and had a pistol in his trousers.

5 Q. The second time ----

6 A. And the second time he had a camouflage uniform, I already said that,

7 and in his hand he had a short automatic.

8 Q. Was the camouflage uniform wearing a jacket or was it a shirt that

9 was worn on the top?

10 A. No, it was a camouflage t-shirt and camouflage trousers.

11 Q. So the t-shirt then was without long sleeves? Was it short sleeves?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. No jacket on the top?

14 A. No.

15 Q. The second time you saw him then on this occasion that you have told

16 us is 23rd July, can you remember if he had a weapon with him?

17 A. Yes, a short automatic.

18 Q. Is that a short automatic rifle?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How was that being carried?

21 A. Down.

22 Q. So not being put over the shoulder or carried on the back?

23 A. No. No, down in his hand and he had it backwards.

24 Q. You see what I suggest to you, ma'am, is this, that in fact you are

25 mistaken when you say that the man you saw in Omarska on those

Page 3739

1 occasions was Dusko Tadic?

2 A. No. No, I am not mistaken.

3 Q. What I would like to put to you is this. Do you know a man called

4 Miso Danicic?

5 A. No.

6 MR. KAY: Thank you. I have no further questions.


8 MISS HOLLIS: Nothing on redirect, your Honour.

9 JUDGE VOHRAH: Madam, do you know a person by the name of Fikret

10 Harambasic?

11 A. No.

12 JUDGE VOHRAH: Thank you.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Additional questions, Miss Hollis, or Mr. Kay. Miss

14 Hollis first?

15 MISS HOLLIS: No, your Honour.


17 MR. KAY: There is one matter that Mr. Orie has pointed out to me that I

18 should put to the witness, your Honour.

19 (To the witness): In that statement that I have handed to

20 you, madam, on the next page you say that the both times you saw Tadic

21 he wore a camouflage uniform?

22 A. No, I repeat it again, the first time he had a pair of jeans on,

23 black jeans, a dark blue blouse and he had a pistol at the back of his

24 trousers. The second time he was in a camouflage uniform, a

25 camouflage shirt and he had a short automatic.

Page 3740

1 Q. What I am concerned with is your accuracy of recollection of these

2 matters and ----

3 A. Yes, I remember it very well because I was in Omarska, not you.

4 Q. Can you explain then how when you came to recollect these matters in

5 February 1995 that you said something different?

6 A. No.

7 Q. That you said that he wore a camouflage uniform on both occasions?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Do you think in fact that your memory is at fault about these

10 matters?

11 A. No, my memory serves me well.

12 MR. KAY: Thank you very much.


14 MISS HOLLIS: Nothing, your Honour.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to Dr. Harambasic being permanently

16 excused, Mr. Kay?

17 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Dr. Harambasic, you are permanently excused. You

19 are free to leave. Thank you for coming.

20 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, would you call your next witness,

22 please.

23 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, at this time I would ask the Court's indulgence

24 for a very short break. Our next witness is a person who has some

25 emotional difficulties in waiting. I would like to make sure that the

Page 3741

1 witness is emotionally prepared to come into the courtroom. Things

2 may go more smoothly if I am allowed a very short time for that.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: How much time do you need?

4 MISS HOLLIS: Just five minutes. If I could perhaps leave the courtroom

5 for that time?

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It is acceptable?

7 MR. KAY: Absolutely.

8 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour, for that indulgence. Your Honour,

9 at this time the Prosecution would call Suada Ramic.

10 MRS. SUADA RAMIC, called.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Would you please stand and take the oath. Would you

12 please take the oath? Mr. Usher, would you give the oath and ask the

13 witness to please read that oath. Would you read that oath, please?

14 THE WITNESS: [In translation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the

15 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. Thank you. You may be seated.

17 Examined by Miss Hollis.

18 Q. Would you please state your name?

19 A. Suada Ramic.

20 Q. What is your date of birth?

21 A. 4th February 1955.

22 Q. Where were you born?

23 A. In Prijedor.

24 Q. Were you born in the town of Prijedor or in a village in the opstina

25 of Prijedor?

Page 3742

1 A. Donja Cela in the municipality of Prijedor.

2 Q. What is your marital status?

3 A. Married.

4 Q. What is your husband's name?

5 A. Adem Mehmedovic.

6 Q. What is your ethnic group or nationality?

7 A. I am a Muslim.

8 Q. What is your husband's ethnic group?

9 A. Muslim.

10 Q. You lived in Donja Cela until when?

11 A. Sometime between 1980 and 1982.

12 Q. Where did you move to at that time?

13 A. To the municipality of Prijedor, to Prijedor.

14 Q. How many people lived in this village of Donja Cela?

15 A. It was a small hamlet.

16 Q. What was the ethnic group of the inhabitants?

17 A. They were Muslims mostly.

18 Q. How far was Donja Cela from the town of Prijedor?

19 A. 3.5 to 4 kilometres.

20 Q. Did you know people in villages surrounding Donja Cela?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. To your knowledge what was the ethnic group of people in those

23 villages?

24 A. Predominantly Muslim.

25 Q. How long did you live in the town of Prijedor?

Page 3743

1 A. Well, since 1982 until 1992.

2 Q. Until when in 1992?

3 A. Until about June, until we went to the camp.

4 Q. Was your occupation a driver and conductor for Auto Transport

5 Prijedor?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. How long did you work for Auto Transport Prijedor?

8 A. From 1978 to 1992, until 1992.

9 Q. Did you know a man by the name of Dule or Dusko Tadic?

10 A. In passing.

11 Q. You knew this man to recognise him when you saw him?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In 1991 did you perform duties as a Reserve Police driver and drive

14 to areas that were within a few kilometres of the confrontation lines

15 with Croatia?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Based on your observations there did you at some point refuse to

18 continue to perform those duties?

19 A. Yes, when I saw what they were doing. Of course not only I, most of

20 us.

21 Q. To your knowledge, was your refusal to continue to perform those

22 duties known by people in the town of Prijedor?

23 A. Well, about most of them, not only about me, but most of them, they

24 knew that we had refused because it was not, that it was injustice,

25 that it was destruction of a people.

Page 3744

1 Q. A few days after the Serb takeover of the town of Prijedor, did you

2 go to your brother's home in Donja Cela?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. On the way back from that visit were you stopped at a checkpoint?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you know any of the people who stopped you at that checkpoint?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What was the ethnic group of the people who stopped you?

9 A. Serb.

10 Q. Sometime after that were you taken to the Prijedor police station?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Were you interrogated there?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you know the person or people who interrogated you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. How do you know them?

17 A. Well, in passing because he often travelled with us, would come to

18 the station of public security and he was the head of the shift.

19 Q. What was this person's name?

20 A. Dragan Banovic.

21 Q. What was his occupation?

22 A. Police Commander.

23 Q. What was his ethnic group?

24 A. Serb.

25 Q. After that interrogation did a man named Brkic take you to the

Page 3745

1 military barracks in Prijedor?

2 A. Yes, Brkic an Auto Transport driver.

3 Q. What was the name of the military barracks to which you were taken?

4 A. Zarko Zgonjanin.

5 Q. At sometime while you were at the military barracks were you

6 blindfolded and taken to a room?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What happened to you after you were blindfolded and put into that

9 room?

10 A. They took me to a dark room.

11 Q. Then what happened?

12 A. They raped me. They raped me and took me back for interrogation to

13 the same corridor from which they had taken me away.

14 Q. Then after that what happened with you?

15 A. I was bleeding heavily and the soldier who interrogated me in that

16 room invited me to enter the room. When I entered the room, as I was

17 covered in blood, he said simply: "What fool did that?" He gave me a

18 blanket and asked me only where I lived and I told him Petra

19 Preradovica 25, the first street off another street, and he drove me

20 there. After that I called the hospital to see whether they could

21 help me. I asked for Dr. Katzman or Dr. Banovic or nurse Liljia or

22 Jalja or Vikica. Banovic answered my call and I told her what

23 happened. I told her I started bleeding out of fear and she said: "I

24 cannot help you like this. Come to the hospital." I went to the

25 hospital. I took a taxi and when I came to the hospital she received

Page 3746

1 me and only said: "First I have to see what is wrong with you", and

2 when she examined me she told me I was pregnant, about three or four

3 months, or something like that she said, and said: "Listen, I have to

4 perform the abortion but I do not have the anaesthetic." She invited

5 another doctor, Savic, and when he entered the room he started cursing

6 and saying that all balija women, they should be removed away,

7 eliminated, and he also started cursing her because she was helping

8 Muslims and saying that all the Muslims should be annihilated,

9 especially men. She gave me some pills and told me: "If anything goes

10 wrong, further wrong, I cannot help you any more." I returned ----

11 Q. If we could stop you there for a moment. You indicated that a doctor

12 there helped you. What was that doctor's name?

13 A. Dr. Banovic, Mrs. Banovic.

14 Q. You indicated another doctor that was cursing and saying things such

15 as all balija women should be removed, what was that doctor's name?

16 A. Dr. Savic, Mr. Savic.

17 Q. So while you were at the hospital they found it necessary to abort

18 your pregnancy, is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You indicated that this was done without the benefit of any type of

21 anaesthesia?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Then you were sent home from the hospital, is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When you reached home was your husband at your home?

Page 3747

1 A. No.

2 Q. When had been the last time that you had seen your husband?

3 A. Some 10 days before this happened.

4 Q. Prior to the rape at the military barracks had you had any physical

5 problems such as bleeding or cramping, any problems with your

6 pregnancy?

7 A. No.

8 Q. When you got home to your apartment a few days after that, did you go

9 to your brother's home in Donja Cela?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When you arrived there had most of the women left the village?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. While you were there do you recall men in uniforms coming to the

14 village?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you know these men who came to the village?

17 A. Yes, and those were neighbours.

18 Q. What are the names of the men that you knew?

19 A. Momir Marinovic and Mico Dobrijevic.

20 Q. You said they were neighbours from a village close by?

21 A. Yes, from the village, this one where we were born.

22 Q. What was the ethnic group of these men?

23 A. Serb.

24 Q. What orders or ultimatums did they give when they came to you in

25 this village?

Page 3748

1 A. The automatics, to turn over weapons and to put up white rags, white

2 cloth on the windows, to mark them.

3 Q. To your knowledge, were there any weapons in this village?

4 A. Only lawful ones, I mean, people who had licences to have weapons.

5 Q. What type of weapons were these, if you know?

6 A. Only pistols.

7 Q. Were these weapons turned in?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you then go to find the women and bring them back to the village?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you pass through the village of Carakovo?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What was the condition of the homes in that village when you passed

14 through?

15 A. Burned down and shelled.

16 Q. If you know, what ethnic group had lived in that village?

17 A. Muslims.

18 Q. While you were on this trip to find the women and bring them back,

19 did you see any bodies?

20 A. Bodies, yes, I did see them, but I paid no attention because I was

21 afraid.

22 Q. Did you find the women and take them back to the village?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you then return to Prijedor?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3749

1 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, we are moving into a new area at this time.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will adjourn until tomorrow at 10 a.m.

3 (5.30 p.m.).

4 (The court adjourned until the following day)