1 THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL TRIBUNAL CASE NO. IT-94-1-T
2 FOR THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA
3 IN THE TRIAL CHAMBER
4 Friday, 26th July 1996
5 (10.00 a.m)
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Good morning. One counsel is standing, Mr.
8 MR. WLADIMIROFF: A very small and practical matter, your Honour, I want
9 to raise, that is, we were to file today a motion asking for
10 additional or amended protection of our witnesses. I think we need
11 another week, even less, but, nevertheless, we are not able to file it
12 today as we said we will do so. So we ask an extension for the next
13 Thursday because we will not sit on Friday.
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, that is August 2nd, I guess. My, time is
15 speeding. For some of us it is speeding. For me it is speeding. Any
16 objection from the Prosecutor?
17 MR. KEEGAN: No, your Honour.
18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. You may have that extension, Mr.
19 Wladimiroff. Mr. Keegan, you were questioning Mr. Mujcic?
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Regarding the decision on hearsay, I had indicated
21 that would be prepared today. It is prepared almost, but it needs to
22 go to the translators. That means we will probably be able to have it
23 to you -- Miss Featherstone -- Tuesday, if we are lucky.
24 MISS FEATHERSTONE: Tuesday, if we are lucky.
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, Tuesday, if we are lucky, Wednesday perhaps.
1 Once again, if counsel will have their comments regarding the witness
2 whom we spoke about yesterday, if you will have your comments to us by
3 the close of business today, then that matter will be expedited.
4 MR. KEEGAN: We have already passed our comments to Miss Featherstone,
5 your Honour.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Thank you.
7 MR. ARMIN MUJCIC, recalled.
8 Examined by MR. KEEGAN, continued
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Mujcic, you are still under oath. Do you
10 understand that?
11 THE WITNESS [In translation]: Yes.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Keegan, you may proceed.
13 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, your Honour. (To the witness): Mr. Mujcic, when
14 we broke yesterday you were describing how you saw the accused Dusko
15 Tadic on a tank in the village of Kozarac during the attack. If I
16 could have Exhibit 202 shown to the Defence which is a map of Kozarac?
17 MR. BOS: 221, is that possible?
18 MR. KEEGAN: It could be possible. I gave the wrong number. 221, excuse
19 me. (To the witness): Mr. Mujcic, do you recognise what that Exhibit
20 is, Exhibit 221?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What is that, please?
23 A. It shows Marsala Tita Street which is now from the direction of
24 Kozarac towards the main road of Banja Luka/Prijedor.
25 Q. Thank you. If that could be put on the Elmo, please? Thank you. Mr.
1 Mujcic, using the pointer there and indicating on the map which is on
2 the overhead, could you please indicate generally the location where
3 you were when you saw the tank first?
4 A. Right here where the pharmacy and the textile shop was, between the
5 park from the school and that building here.
6 Q. With relation to that building which contained the pharmacy and
7 textile shop, where were you in relation to that building? In front of
8 it, behind it, next to it?
9 A. Behind it, around the corner.
10 Q. Where was the tank at that time when you saw it?
11 A. The tank was here across from here. Whether it was on the road or
12 whether it was off the road where the pavement was, where the
13 restaurant was, here.
14 Q. You are saying "whether it was on the road", which road are you
15 referring to?
16 A. That road that led towards the intersection, towards the main road.
17 Q. OK. You are referring to Marsala Tita Street?
18 A. Yes, that is it.
19 Q. What building was the tank in front of?
20 A. In front of the restaurant.
21 Q. If we could run Exhibit 195 which is the film of Kozarac, please?
22 Mr. Mujcic, when you see this film, what I would ask you to do is
23 indicate the place where you saw the tank parked first?
24 A. Stop.
25 Q. OK. What building is that we see in the picture here, the large
1 building to the right?
2 A. That is a building where the restaurant was, another shop and a shoe
4 Q. Can you move that picture up a few frames, please? Thank you. Is
5 that the area where you saw the tank parked?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you describe how it was parked again, please?
8 A. It was turned towards Kozarac. Whether in that moment it had come or
9 stopped there, the engine was still running, I do not know. When I
10 looked up it was standing still.
11 Q. Thank you. Can we fast forward through to the other side where the
12 camera is coming back the other way on the screen? If you could slow
13 it down, please? If you could stop -- keep going, please. If you
14 could indicate when you see the building you were behind?
15 A. It is that building.
16 Q. If you could just back that up a few frames, please, to where you are
17 there between the two? Right there, thank you. This is the building
18 that you were standing behind?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Which end of the building were you on, this end or the other?
21 A. I was standing on the other side around the corner.
22 Q. Could you now move forward to just the other end of the building,
23 please? Stopping a few more frames please -- there. Thank you.
24 A. That is it.
25 Q. Where were you standing, sir?
1 A. Right around the corner behind the building.
2 Q. From this position that we are looking at now, where was the tank?
3 A. Across from it.
4 Q. Is that directly across?
5 A. Perhaps a little bit up or down, I do not remember exactly, but I
6 could see it.
7 Q. Was there anything obstructing your view to that tank with the people
8 on it?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Thank you. You can stop the tape now.
11 JUDGE STEPHEN: The witness said that the tank was pointing towards
12 Kozarac which tells me nothing.
13 MR. KEEGAN: I am going to clear that up.
14 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.
15 MR. KEEGAN (To the witness): Sir, you described that the tank was
16 pointing towards Kozarac. When you said that, can you tell us whether
17 you mean it was pointing down towards that triangle intersection or
18 back up the road towards the mosque and Mrakovica?
19 A. It was off the side of the road towards Mrakovica.
20 Q. Was the gun too pointing in that direction?
21 A. I cannot remember exactly whether it was exactly in that direction or
22 a bit to the right.
23 Q. Thank you. When you saw this tank, where did you see Dusko Tadic?
24 A. In that moment I saw him climbing off the tank.
25 Q. What was happening in the area around the tank at that time?
1 A. There was a group of people who were coming from the direction of
2 Mrakovica, a group, you know, a column. I cannot quite say, but there
3 were a lot of people right there at the tank. There was also the
4 military, the Serb military.
5 Q. What were the other Serb military people doing at that time?
6 A. They were escorting people downwards towards the road Banja
7 Luka/Prijedor. They were cursing, "Balija mothers", "Ustasha
8 mothers", and all those things I cannot remember, threats and such.
9 Q. What type of people were in this column? Was it all men or were
10 there women and children in this column as well?
11 A. There were elderly women, children, all ages.
12 Q. You indicated yesterday that a young boy approached Dusko Tadic. Did
13 you know who that boy was?
14 A. No.
15 Q. What did you see happen?
16 A. I saw Dule slapping him. He, sort of, pushed him into the tank.
17 Q. After you saw that, did you and your group surrender to this column?
18 A. No, we did not dare surrender when we saw that they were beating
20 Q. What was Dusko Tadic wearing on that occasion, do you recall?
21 A. I remember he wore the camouflage uniform.
22 Q. Can you recall whether or not he had a beard at that time?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Yesterday you also indicated that you recognised one of the other
25 people who was with Dusko Tadic. Who was that?
1 A. Yes, I recognised Goran Borovnica.
2 Q. Can you describe Goran Borovnica, please?
3 A. Yes, he was of short build, thin, one eye was cross-eyed, sort of,
4 was not right, sort of cross-eyed.
5 Q. Do you recall what he was wearing on that occasion?
6 A. I cannot remember exactly whether it was a camouflage uniform or SMB.
7 In any event, it was a uniform.
8 Q. What did your group do after seeing that event?
9 A. We turned back because as we were meeting people they said that there
10 was some collection centre or something in Trnopolje, so we decided to
11 go towards Trnopolje.
12 Q. Did you make it to Trnopolje or were you captured?
13 A. Before that I was captured.
14 Q. Who were you captured by?
15 A. I was captured by armed people in the village of Causevici.
16 Q. Did you recognise any of the people who captured you?
17 A. Yes, I recognised one, a man in a camouflage uniform. He had a net
18 over his face, some camouflage net. I knew that he worked in Elektro
19 Prijedor, he was an electrician, and he played soccer in a soccer
20 club. Since I also played soccer, that is how I knew him.
21 Q. Do you recall his name?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Do you know what his ethnic background was?
24 A. A Serb.
25 Q. After you were captured were you held in the local area for a time?
1 A. No, there they just checked us there. They asked why are we shooting
2 at them from Kozarac, why we joined Tudjman and such and they
3 mentioned Alija Izetbegovic as well. I do not remember all those
4 things very well.
5 Q. Where were you taken by this group?
6 A. They took us to a school in Donji Orlovci.
7 Q. How long were you held in the school?
8 A. I do not remember exactly the time, but it was night. They told us
9 -- they closed, they locked us in a room where there was a school, and
10 they said that we should spend the night there and the next day we
11 will go to Trnopolje on buses to join our wives and children, and if
12 somebody tried to flee they would shoot at them.
13 Q. The next day were you taken to Trnopolje?
14 A. No, that night, I do not know what time it was, all of a sudden one
15 could hear noise. The door suddenly opened and curses could be heard,
16 "Where are those balijas?" "Get out fast one by one, hands up on your
17 neck", so that everybody from my group came out. I was the last.
18 When I came to the doorway I recognised one young man, my age, whom I
19 knew. I think he was called "Dragan". He cursed my balija mother and
20 all that. He said, "Hands up behind your neck". I said, "Why? We
21 know each other". He again cursed something and said, "You killed my
22 brother in Kozarac or wounded him" or something, I do not know.
23 Q. Then what happened?
24 A. So, when I did not raise my hands, he grabbed me by the collar. He
25 called over some others, one or two of them, and they started beating
1 on me. He hit me with a rifle butt from behind in my head, and said,
2 "Come over here now". It was dark outside over there. He took me
3 around the corner of that school or whatever it was, and he put a
4 bullet in the -- and I thought that it was over now. I thought to
5 myself, God help me.
6 Q. OK. What happened next?
7 A. Then a voice could be heard saying to let me go, that they would
8 first interrogate me and then see what to do with me. The others were
9 already in the van. I was all bloody. Then he called out a young man
10 on the van whom he also knew and told him to tell me not to make any
11 trouble, not to try to escape because in that case they would cut my
12 throat, they would kill me.
13 Then we were put into that van, and we were taken by people
14 wearing camouflage uniforms with the insignia saying, "Milicija",
15 militia, "Krajina". In that van they beat us, they ill-treated us,
16 threatened us and so took us in the direction of Keraterm.
17 Q. Your prior answer indicated that the man put the bullet in and then
18 the translation did not pick it up. Did you mean to indicate that he
19 had put the bullet in the gun and you could hear that?
20 A. No, it was an automatic rifle, and he put a bullet in the barrel so
21 as to shoot, that is, he uncocked the gun.
22 Q. So this group which came to pick you up and take you to Keraterm was
23 a different group than those who had captured you?
24 A. No, that was a different group.
25 Q. When you arrived at Keraterm what happened?
1 A. When they brought us to Keraterm we saw a number of buses waiting
2 there, all full. We saw women and children and adult men. They
3 brought us there, and we were taken off on to the pista next to that
4 red building.
5 Q. How long were you in the Keraterm camp for?
6 A. We were interrogated there and they transferred us down there to one
7 of those halls, to one of those areas. I spent there a day, maybe a
8 night, and it could have been the next night that I left, I do not
9 remember exactly.
10 Q. From Keraterm where were you taken?
11 A. In the evening, late in the evening, the buses arrived and we were
12 told to board the buses. Some people enquired, asked, those Serb
13 guards, "Where are we going?" and they laughed and said, "You are
14 going to Trnopolje, to your wives and children". People, of course,
15 scrambled to get on to those buses to take seats as quickly as
16 possible. So that the buses were overflowing, hundreds of people were
17 on those buses.
18 Q. Did these people think they were going to be joining their families
19 at Trnopolje?
20 A. That is right.
21 Q. Where did the buses actually end up?
22 A. After a long drive they ended up at Omarska.
23 Q. On the way to Omarska did the buses stop in any of the villages?
24 A. Yes, there were frequent stops.
25 Q. What happened to those stops?
1 A. Usually they took people off buses. In all the buses there were two,
2 sometimes three soldiers, Serb. They had some metal rods and also
3 some wooden sticks. They beat, ill-treated, abused verbally. I
4 recognised quite a number of those guards, but I cannot remember their
6 Q. When people were taken off the buses in the villages, do you know
7 whether any of those people got back on the bus?
8 A. Some returned beaten up, bleeding. Some did not. From my bus I saw
9 a young man from Kozarac being taken off. I do not know him. I do
10 not know his name. He was -- he seemed to break down and he started
11 screaming, shouting, "Brothers, what are you doing to us? Open the
13 At that moment the guard came up. He was somewhere in the
14 middle of the bus, and the guard came from the top of the bus. He
15 trampled over people and he struck him with a rifle holding it by the
16 barrel. He struck him in the head. I saw the man fall down bleeding,
17 and he started again imploring them to open the windows and why were
18 they keeping us there. Then they took him off, took him out of the
19 bus outside and all I heard were cries of pain and he did not return
21 Q. When you arrived at Omarska what happened?
22 A. When we arrived buses were unloaded one by one. It was slow going
23 because one by one came off the bus with hands behind the head. On
24 two sides lined up were Serb soldiers and policemen with those metal
25 pipes, rods, wooden bats, rifles and each one had to bow to walk past
1 them towards that room.
2 Q. Were you beaten when you went through that cordon of guards?
3 A. It was impossible to get by all those people without being hit by a
4 rifle butt, by a bat, by a baton, by a foot.
5 Q. In what building were you placed in when you arrived at the camp?
6 A. We were put in that red hall, that room with stairs. It was called
7 room 15.
8 Q. If you would, sir, if you could, please go around and using the
9 pointer indicate on the model where room 15 is? Mr. Mujcic, if you
10 could approach the model and by using the pointer indicate the room
11 which you called room 15?
12 A. Yes, it is here by that entrance ------
13 THE INTERPRETER: We can barely hear the witness. Could you please direct
14 the microphone towards him?
15 MR. KEEGAN: Mr. Mujcic, when you are describing you are going to need to
16 lean towards the microphones on the table so that the translator can
17 hear you.
18 A. We entered through the staircase. There were also soldiers there
19 beating us. Then we entered through this door here. This room was
20 overcrowded with people already. They were loading us, piling us,
21 almost one on top of the other.
22 Q. Could you please point to the room again?
23 A. (The witness indicated on the model.)
24 Q. Can you please identify that room by the letter and number designator
25 which is there?
1 A. B7, B8, B7, B23.
2 Q. You have indicated there the number B23 which on the diagram appears
3 to be a separate area within the room marked B7. Do you recall what
4 was in that area, the one marked B23?
5 A. Those were toilets and wash rooms.
6 Q. In the small area across from that?
7 A. There were taps to wash hands and troughs.
8 Q. Was that entire area, the area B7 as well as B23 in the other room,
9 considered one room by the prisoners?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you. You can return to your seat, please. How long were you
12 in that room for?
13 A. I spent there all the time until the interrogation, some 15 or 20
15 Q. Can you describe the conditions in that room? Was it crowded?
16 A. Oh, yes, it was overcrowded with people. People were lying in those
17 toilets, in those water troughs or under those troughs.
18 Q. Was there space for everyone in that room to be able to lie down and
19 stretch out?
20 A. No, we could hardly sit properly, so to speak.
21 Q. How frequently were you led out of the room?
22 A. After three or four days that was when we were given food first.
23 That was the first time that we went out and we went out only when
24 there were meals. It also depended on the guard to let you go to the
1 Q. So that you were not always allowed to go to the toilet when you
2 needed to?
3 A. No. It was dangerous because it did happen that people would be
4 beaten because they had stayed there a minute or ----
5 Q. Stayed where?
6 A. In the toilet.
7 Q. When people were not allowed to use the toilet what did they do?
8 A. Well, they relieved themselves in those toilets where they were
9 staying, where we were staying.
10 Q. Were those toilets operating correctly enough to enable the
11 conditions to remain sanitary?
12 A. No, they were all plugged. It was only some plastic bags or some old
13 footwear we used to relieve ourselves.
14 Q. How often were you given water?
15 A. That depended also on the guard. If some -- when some people had
16 some money, marks or something else to pay for it, then they would
17 bring a canister, a can of water, which of course was not enough for
18 even half of the people to quench their thirst.
19 Q. Were people becoming ill?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you yourself become ill in the camp?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What did you have?
24 A. Dysentery -- we all had it.
25 Q. Where were you taken for interrogation?
1 A. We were taken and they would come, policemen or soldiers, to take us
2 to the building which had the restaurant downstairs, the kitchen, and
3 on the upper floor there were offices and there they conducted
5 Q. Were you beaten on the way to your interrogation?
6 A. Yes, even at the entrance, up the first staircase there was a
7 soldier, there is a kind of a dome or a vault over that staircase, a
8 plate, and I would go, walk past him and he hit me several times.
9 Q. In which building is the staircase that you are talking about?
10 A. It is in the building in which the restaurant was and where
11 interrogations were conducted.
12 Q. Looking at the model in front of you, can you see that stairway on
13 that building?
14 A. Yes, I can see the place where he hit me, not the one who was
15 escorting me, but another one.
16 Q. Is that the circular area on the front of that building facing the
18 A. Yes. (The witness indicated on the model). It is where I have just
20 Q. When you were taken upstairs were you interrogated in one of the
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Were you beaten during your interrogation?
24 A. At the entrance when I was about to enter that office, the one who
25 was escorting me, he struck me with a police baton from the back. He
1 hit my head and said, "Mind what you are saying. If you don't tell
2 everything, you know what awaits you".
3 Q. Did you know who your interrogator was?
4 A. The gentleman told me his name.
5 Q. What name did he tell you?
6 A. He was Rade Kovic.
7 Q. After he introduced himself, did you recognise who he was, what he
8 did for his occupation before the war?
9 A. Yes, I did recognise him. He was in the Kozarac National Park, the
10 Manager, or had some executive position.
11 Q. Do you know why he introduced himself, why he told you his name?
12 A. Well, he told me his name because he knew where my home was and he
13 knew my grandfather, and that not far away because my house was very
14 close to those Serb houses and that his aunt was there whose name was
16 Q. What type of questions did he ask you?
17 A. Well, he generally asked me about the rifle, which formation I
18 belonged to, and that he knew my grandfather who was a resistant
19 fighter, a partisan, so why was I, as an Ustasha, here; why I sided
20 more with them, that I was not pro-Yugoslav.
21 Q. Did you own a rifle?
22 A. No.
23 Q. The group that you were with when you were captured, were any of
24 those people armed?
25 A. I do not remember, no.
1 Q. How were those people dressed, the group you were captured with?
2 A. Could you repeat the question, please? I did not understand it.
3 Q. The group that you were with when you were captured, how were you
5 A. We were all in civilian clothes. There were children and elderly,
6 except that we were all wet because of the water since we were trying
7 to hide in waters and those canals.
8 Q. Where were you taken to after your interrogation?
9 A. I was taken to the building which housed the workshop. It is this
10 big red building.
11 Q. The same building you had been in before?
12 A. Yes, another section of it.
13 Q. Again could you please approach the model and point to the area to
14 which you were returned after your interrogation?
15 A. Yes. (The witness indicated on the model). It was this room.
16 Q. Just a moment we have to wait for the monitor.
17 A. (The witness indicated on the model). This is where I was, by this
19 Q. Just a moment, please, we have lost the picture. Can you identify
20 the room you were in by the letter and number designator which is
22 A. B14.
23 Q. I notice outside that room there is a corridor and a stairway.
24 A. Yes, that is where we entered.
25 Q. That corridor and that stairway, was that area considered by the
1 prisoners to all be part of one room with B14?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Excuse me, one question: which is the corridor now
5 and the stairway? I am trying to look at the model at the same time
6 that I am looking at that view.
7 MR. KEEGAN: Can you point to the corridor and can you point to the
8 stairway, please, sir?
9 A. Yes. (The witness indicated on the model).
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you.
11 MR. KEEGAN: What is the number and letter designator for the corridor,
13 A. Corridor, B16.
14 Q. Thank you. You can return to your seat. How crowded was that room?
15 A. It was packed with people. Once somebody counted, actually
16 calculated the square footage, so it was about one half metre per
18 Q. Were there ever guards posted up there on that first floor in that
20 A. No.
21 Q. Where was the normal guard post?
22 A. They were in the large hall, near the dumper trucks. They had their
24 Q. When you say "large hall", do you mean the large garage area, the
25 main garage area, of the building?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you see Dusko Tadic in Omarska?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Where did you see him in the camp?
5 A. I could not hear the question.
6 Q. Where did you see him in the camp?
7 A. I saw him in the garage when he came.
8 Q. What were you doing down in the garage area?
9 A. Since I had dysentery and at that time you have to go to the toilet
10 all the time, and since I was upstairs, I could not come down over
11 people all the time because some people did not allow that because
12 they had to get up in order to let somebody pass. So that I asked,
13 and another two young men who also suffered from it, we asked the
14 guard to be outside near the toilet.
15 Q. Where was the toilet located?
16 A. The toilet was located in the garage, up towards the entrance.
17 Q. You say the "entrance", is that the door from which the prisoners
18 went in and out of the garage?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. It was on the ground floor?
21 A. Yes, ground floor, yes.
22 Q. Can you describe the situation when you saw Dusko Tadic? What
24 JUDGE STEPHEN: I wonder if you would mind getting the witness to actually
25 point out the toilet?
1 MR. KEEGAN: I was going to, your Honour. I was going to describe it all
2 first and then point it all out. (To the witness): Could you
3 describe the situation when you saw Dusko Tadic?
4 A. Yes. We were sitting on a wooden box or crate near that room where
5 we were otherwise in on the ground floor. I returned from the toilet
6 and I was sort of about -- I was holding my hands over my stomach. In
7 that moment the guards that were there in that area, otherwise it was
8 a quiet day, the shift was, I cannot say that they were good but they
9 were correct. They said, "The coloured ones are coming". We knew
10 what that meant. That meant that we had to disappear that very moment.
11 Q. What was the term that the guards used?
12 A. "Sarenci" which means "coloured ones".
13 Q. What does that term mean to you?
14 A. A lot of visitors came in those camouflage uniforms which were
15 coloured, often -- they often came to beat us, to take somebody out
16 that they wanted.
17 Q. So "sarenci" meant multi-coloured ones, meaning people in camouflage
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. When you heard that what did you do?
21 A. What else would we do? Just run away as quickly as possible. So we
22 started running towards the door of our room.
23 Q. What happened when you got to the door?
24 A. There was already something going on there, as if people had heard,
25 as if they too had heard, so there was a lot of people in front of the
1 door, so that I was near the door, I could not get in. People were
2 jumping off the lockers, the ones that were there. In that moment I
3 looked whether I was going to be caught up by that group that was
4 arriving and when I turned I saw .....
5 Q. What did you see?
6 A. From the direction of the toilet a group of people is coming.
7 Q. Did you recognise anyone in the group?
8 A. Yes. In that moment I recognised Dusan Tadic, Miso Radulovic, a
9 teacher from Kozarac, and Vujcic, I think his first name was Rajko,
10 who was a bus driver of the Autotransport Company from Prijedor.
11 Q. How was Dusko Tadic dressed?
12 A. He had a camouflage uniform. As much as I could remember at that
13 time, he had a white police belt, dark sunglasses and a cap on his
14 head which had a Kokarda or white eagle on it.
15 Q. What did you do after you looked at this group?
16 A. That moment the place had already cleared and people were running up
17 towards the room where I was, because whenever something happened they
18 would all -- those who were closest to the door were most exposed.
19 Q. How far into that room were you able to go?
20 A. It was all packed up to, up the stairs, so I came to the first
21 landing and I could not go any farther. I was telling people to move
22 so that I could go to my spot but it was too packed, I could not.
23 Q. Sir, if you could approach the model once again and indicate first,
24 please, where you were sitting? Just one moment, sir. We have to
25 wait for the monitor to be switched on. All right. If you could
1 indicate first where you were sitting, please?
2 A. (The witness indicated on the model). I was sitting here on a wooden
3 crate next to which there was a small, low wooden bench.
4 Q. If you could indicate where the door to your room was?
5 A. Here.
6 Q. If you could indicate once you were at that door where it was that
7 you saw Dusko Tadic?
8 A. I cannot remember exactly. I know that he had passed the toilet.
9 Q. OK. In that case can you indicate where the toilet is, please?
10 A. (The witness indicated on the model). I think it was here.
11 Q. Did the Court get that location?
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes.
13 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you. Thank you, sir. You can return to your seat.
14 Sir, once you got into the room, to the landing, what do you recall
15 happening next?
16 A. A short time after that names were being called out, Hrnic Jasmin
17 called "Jasko" was called out, Emir Karabasic, a policeman, and Eno
19 Q. After those people were called out did you see any of the events?
20 A. What I could see, Jasmin Hrnic and Karabasic were downstairs before,
21 had come out before. They started beating them. I think that that
22 was the group that had come.
23 Q. You mean the group including Dusko Tadic?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you describe what the bus driver Vujcic looks like?
1 A. Yes, he was around 30, 30 something, tall and balding. I knew him
2 because he was driving the bus on the line Prijedor/Omarska, and
3 that was a bus with that extension and he also was doing the line to
5 Q. Did he have light or dark hair?
6 A. I do not remember.
7 Q. Can you recall whether he had a beard?
8 A. A beard?
9 Q. Yes, at that time?
10 A. No.
11 Q. No, he did not have a beard or no, you cannot recall?
12 A. I do not remember. I do not remember that -- he did not have a
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Excuse me. Is this the bus driver you are referring
16 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, your Honour. (To the witness): What could you hear
17 happening in the garage?
18 A. We heard blows and then wails.
19 Q. Did you hear music that day?
20 A. Music was played very often, but I cannot remember if that day, I do
21 not remember even whether I ate that day.
22 Q. Did you continue to watch the event for as long as you possibly
24 A. Until they were taken towards the canal.
25 Q. What were you thinking during that time?
1 A. I thought that we were all going to be tortured like this, that I
2 wished that they would just kill me with a bullet -- it would be
4 Q. Do you recall whether anyone else was called out of the room after
6 A. Yes, they were calling out, with these they called Eno Alic, but he
7 at that moment did not want to come down.
8 Q. How was Eno Alic actually called out? Who called him out?
9 A. When they were calling him out in that moment he did not come down.
10 He said, "He was going to kill me, he was going to kill me" as if he
11 knew who was down there. I assumed it was somebody from the room 15
12 because there was a door and some messages were passed on pieces of
13 paper so you could talk, that somebody already had said something.
14 But when Eno Alic's father came ----
15 Q. After those three were called out, after the beatings, were others
16 called out?
17 A. I knew about Jasmin and Karabasic. They were called out and then Eno
18 later, when his father called him.
19 Q. After that group were people called out to move the bodies?
20 A. Yes, but that took a while.
21 Q. Yes. Did you see who was actually called out to move the bodies?
22 A. I heard that they asked for volunteers to pick up the dead.
23 Q. Did you know or could you tell if anybody responded to the call for
25 A. Volunteers, no. In that moment I think I saw that people who were
1 close to the door there at the entrance, that they took them, but who
2 it was, I do not remember.
3 Q. Later, after those people left the room, did you manage to move
5 A. Yes, when those screams happened there was silence. You could hear
6 everything from outside, begging to be killed, not to be tortured.
7 Blows were resonating. There were some heavy objects and then at one
8 point there was such screaming that everybody just pushed upstairs to
9 those rooms when people ran in from outside.
10 Q. Did you see any of the people who came in from outside?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. Did you see ---
13 A. I do not remember.
14 Q. -- two people who are referred to in this courtroom as G and H?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What do you remember about Mr. G?
17 A. Person G ----
18 Q. Describe what you saw of the two people who came up. Describe what
19 they looked like without using their names.
20 A. Yes. I do not know the order in which they came in, but I know
21 person H was naked, as far as I could see, down to his waist. I could
22 not say about the rest. He was all smeared with oil. He was holding
23 his hand over his mouth. He was throwing up. A person J also came
24 and he was also vomiting and holding his mouth, and his mouth was full
25 of blood and there was some hair and then I also saw some oil. Then
1 another one came, I think his name was Mujkanovic. He was also pale.
2 He also looked frightened and he was holding his hand up to his mouth
3 and he was vomiting.
4 Q. Do you remember whether or not Mr. Mujkanovic had any oil on him as
5 the other two did?
6 A. I do not remember exactly. I did not know notice.
7 Q. Where were you when you saw these individuals?
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Excuse me, Mr. Keegan, the translation was Mr. "J"
9 as in -----
10 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, your Honour. That was in the switch and it was clear
11 that they did not catch the letter. Did you mean to say Mr. "J"? or
12 Mr. "G"?
13 A. "J".
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: He said "G" before.
15 MR. KEEGAN: He did, your Honour. He, of course, is going by the letters
16 which I gave him and -----
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yesterday, I think it was Mr. Wladimiroff gave
19 MR. KEEGAN: We can pass names, if you would like, your Honour, if it is
21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You have altered that. Excuse me one minute,
22 please. Do not give it to the witness yet.
23 MR. KEEGAN: I crossed off the letters, your Honour.
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Just let the Defence see what you crossed off,
25 though you are not concerned?
1 MR. KAY: I am not concerned, your Honour.
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. I am sure he did not write the witness a note.
3 He did not write that long! OK, very good.
4 (To the witness): You will open that and put it flat on the table.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, those are the ones.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What ones, sir?
7 MR. KEEGAN: Are those the two individuals whom you described seeing come
8 up the stairs?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. OK. Where were you when you saw these individuals come up the
12 A. When they ran in and at such speed that they all pushed us all. We
13 were all packed against the wall, up the stairs and against the wall,
14 so I climbed up. I was upstairs.
15 Q. Where upstairs were you?
16 A. In the corridor.
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Mujcic, Judge Vohrah has just raised a question
18 as to the note that was given to you with names on it and then the
19 question was asked of you, "Who were they?" and you said, "The persons
20 who came up the stairs". Were those persons G and H?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes.
22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for 20 minutes, please.
23 (11.30 a.m.)
24 (The Court adjourned for a short time)
25 (12.00 p.m.)
1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Keegan, would you like to begin?
2 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, your Honour. (To the witness): Mr. Mujcic, do you
3 know a man named Duca Knezevic?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. How do you know him?
6 A. Well, his home was two or three kilometres away from mine. I know
7 him. He worked as a waiter in a coffee bar in a restaurant in
8 Kozarusa. This restaurant belonged to the soccer club in which I
10 Q. Was he also involved in soccer tournaments in which you played?
11 A. Yes. He defended at tournaments. He was a goalman.
12 Q. Can you describe him, please, physically?
13 A. Yes, he was tall, big.
14 Q. Was he a strong man?
15 A. Yes, very.
16 Q. What colour hair?
17 A. I cannot quite remember. I know he combed it backwards.
18 Q. Can you recall whether it was dark or light?
19 A. Well, light, rather.
20 Q. Did you ever see him in the Omarska camp?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Would you ever have confused him for Dusko Tadic, physically?
23 A. I would not because I know them both.
24 Q. In your opinion, would a person who knew either both of them or
25 simply one of them confuse the physical appearance of the two?
1 A. I do not think so. Tadic is shorter.
2 Q. To your knowledge, was there anyone who lived in the Kozarac area who
3 looked exactly like Dusko Tadic?
4 A. I do not.
5 Q. Did you ever see anyone in the Kozarac area whom you mistook for
6 Dusko Tadic?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you ever hear of anyone else in the Kozarac area talk about
9 someone who looked exactly like Dusko Tadic?
10 A. I do not remember.
11 Q. Did you ever hear of anyone else talk about mistaken identity,
12 mistaking someone for Dusko Tadic because they looked exactly alike?
13 A. No, I do not think so. I think that in Kozarac quite a number of
14 people knew Dusko Tadic and could not mistake him for anyone because
15 he was a well-known person.
16 Q. Do you know of a Mico or Miso Danicic?
17 A. No, the first time I hear it.
18 MR. KEEGAN: Nothing further, your Honour.
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Cross-examination, Mr. Kay?
20 Cross-examined by MR. KAY
21 Q. Mr. Mujcic, have you seen television programmes concerning
22 allegations against Dusko Tadic?
23 A. Yes, some fragments I saw. I think Monika Gras, a film.
24 Q. Was that a film concerned with Omarska?
25 A. Yes, that too.
1 Q. And contained interviews with G about what happened in Omarska?
2 A. Yes, I remember a little.
3 Q. And H about what happened in Omarska?
4 A. No, I do not remember that.
5 Q. Other people talking about what happened in Omarska?
6 A. Not that, I do not remember.
7 Q. Did you see the arrest of Dusko Tadic on national television?
8 A. No, not the arrest, I did not watch it. I only heard it in
9 [redacted], in [redacted] papers, that he had been arrested but
10 nothing else, the circumstances or anything.
11 Q. Did you see his photograph in the newspapers?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You did not hear then about the arrest of Dusko Tadic on television
15 A. Yes, I heard that, but in [redacted], since I do not understand it, I
16 could barely understand anything -- only the name and the surname.
17 Q. Presumably, things that have been on television concerning events
18 within Omarska have been of interest to you?
19 A. Not really. They would not be of interest to me because I more or
20 less knew all that went on there.
21 Q. Have journalists asked to interview you?
22 A. Yes, Mrs. Monika Gras came to that building where I was. Other people
23 gave interviews. I did not want to.
24 Q. When that afternoon these events occurred in that large garage in
25 Omarska, did you speak with others about what had happened? Were you
1 told things by other people?
2 A. I have, naturally. I heard it. Everybody talked about it.
3 Q. Did you speak to G about what had happened?
4 A. Yes, I heard, I heard something.
5 Q. Was that from G?
6 A. Yes, I mean, I do not remember -- well, I think so.
7 Q. But the man we call H, you did not speak to him, did you?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you think that there had been four people who were required to be
10 volunteers from the inmates to go out into the hangar?
11 A. Yes, I thought.
12 Q. Did you think that those four people had been selected from that room
13 which is the hallway at the bottom of the stairs?
14 A. Well, it was logical for me to think so because these people were
15 already there. It was their place, the place where they stayed, and
16 they did not enter upstairs to take people out.
17 Q. Did you think that G had bitten the testicles of Jasko Hrnic?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. That afternoon you have told us that you were not in the area of room
20 15 because of your illness. You were in the area of the wash rooms or
21 lavatories because of the dysentery that you were suffering from?
22 A. No, it was not in the area of room 15. This is another room where I
23 was. In room 15 I was before the interrogation.
24 Q. Yes, the large room on the other side on the ground floor. Can you
25 remember the number of that room that was at the end of the corridor
1 where you were placed after you had been interrogated?
2 A. I was in a room upstairs on the upper floor after the interrogation,
3 not downstairs.
4 Q. Because all these rooms in this area have numbers over the doors, do
5 they not?
6 A. I do not remember.
7 Q. You were sitting on a wooden crate against the wall of the garage?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Were you there on your own or with the two other people who were also
10 suffering from sickness as well?
11 A. Yes, there were two men.
12 Q. Were all of you sitting on the crate?
13 A. I know that I was sitting on that crate. There was also a low bench.
14 It was hard for me to sit on the bench because I was also already
15 sick and it was difficult for me to stand up, but from a crate, since
16 it was somewhat higher, it was easier.
17 Q. The guards who were on duty, their position was down in the garage?
18 A. No, they -- some were across at a table, I cannot really be more
19 definite, perhaps across or a little bit to the side.
20 MR. KEEGAN: I am sorry, your Honour. I apologise for interrupting, but
21 this is a matter of redaction, some locations given; the times being
22 12.07.02 and 12.07.30. I think that the name of the location was
23 mentioned three times. It would be page 27, lines 12 and 18.
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I was waiting for it to come up on the screen. Is
25 there any objection?
1 MR. KAY: There is no objection at all, your Honour.
2 MR. KEEGAN: I apologise for the interruption.
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It will be granted. Here it is. It will be
4 granted. I assume you have the times correctly? Let us see. Mr.
5 Kay, you may continue.
6 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour. (To the witness): I was asking you,
7 Mr. Mujcic, about the place where the guards who were supervising this
8 part of the hangar, where they were placed that afternoon before the
9 men in the coloured clothing came to the hangar. I had suggested to
10 you that they were in the area of the garage. You have told us that
11 they were sitting at a table. Can you tell us where that table was?
12 A. I cannot say the exact place because there were dump trucks there and
13 they had a table. I do not remember if they were sitting at it or
14 whether they were standing.
15 Q. So the position of this table is in the area that we have described
16 as the garage with you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you. Was that near the door that was the main entrance from
19 the back of the building?
20 A. I do not understand the question.
21 Q. I am just interested in where the guard was positioned who told you
22 that the men in the coloured clothing were coming. I want you, if you
23 can, to identify where the guard was who gave you that information.
24 A. I am sorry, I cannot help you because I was bent over. I had -- the
25 pain was very bad, so I was bent down. My head was down. At the
1 moment when we heard the word "Sarenci", the mottled ones, I did not
2 think where the guards were but only where the door was so as to run
3 through it before they arrived.
4 Q. Is that what you did -- got up and run from that crate?
5 A. That is right. That is right.
6 Q. When you got up and ran from that crate, you ran away from the door
7 that was the entrance into the garage?
8 A. I was running towards the entrance into my room.
9 Q. Yes, which is the opposite direction from the entrance from the back
10 into the garage, is that right?
11 A. I was running towards the room where I had been placed -- it is not
12 far away -- and the column was coming from the direction of the WCs
13 which were to the left, or from the direction of room 15, I could not
14 say that.
15 Q. Did the guard shout this out to you, that the men in coloured
16 clothing were coming?
17 A. Yes, they said, "Sarenci", mottled ones. That day there was a shift
18 which was, well, one might say decent. They did not ill-treat us.
19 Q. So you quickly ran to the door to the hallway beneath the stairs that
20 led up to the first floor?
21 A. That is right.
22 Q. You tried to make your way as far as possible from that door so that
23 you could avoid having any contact with these men, is that right?
24 A. Well, since the door was practically bottle necked, people were
25 jumping off the lockers and everybody was in front of the door, so
1 those two had got to the door before me so that I remained outside the
2 door, and at that moment, just afraid, afraid that the column might
3 have arrived already and I could be caught. I cast a look in that
4 direction. The column had already passed by, that is, I think they
5 had already had passed by the toilets and then I looked up and I told
6 you what I saw.
7 Q. Yes, you recognised, you said, three people who were within that
8 column of men, is that right? About how many men are we talking about
9 entering into the garage?
10 A. There were more than three.
11 Q. When you cast that glance up, presumably, you tried to get into the
12 room through the doorway?
13 A. Yes, naturally, I was trying to run into the room.
14 Q. Did you succeed?
15 A. Yes, I succeeded. Some people remained upstairs. There were people
16 who stayed by the lockers, but the majority had got up the stairs,
17 jamming them so they could not reach my place. I reached the first
18 landing of the staircase.
19 Q. After you had cast that look up and you saw the column of men by the
20 toilets, you then focused your attention upon getting into that room
21 behind the door?
22 A. No, no. My look was when I glanced to see if they were not too near
23 to me. As I have said, they had already passed by the toilets but
24 they were not near me, so that I did not feel I was really absolutely
25 pressed to get in.
1 Q. But you tried to get in that room as soon as possible, did you not?
2 A. Yes, but, nevertheless, I had enough time to see who they were.
3 Q. You were looking for any gap in that room that you were trying to get
4 into so that you could get away?
5 A. There was no room. I was outside the door. These people already
6 were at the door and I was there.
7 Q. You were trying to force your way through those people who were at
8 the door so that you did not remain on your own in the garage?
9 A. I had to wait first for people to move away, to make some room.
10 Q. You were looking at the space that they were going to give you?
11 A. I cannot ask for a space when it is all crowded, when you cannot get
12 through. I was simply pushing with my hands those so that I would
13 enter as quickly as possible and that was that.
14 Q. Yes. You cannot ask for a space, you were trying to find a space?
15 A. And what else would I do -- tell somebody, "Excuse me, please, can I
16 get through, can I get in"?
17 Q. In that glance that you said you gave to the men in coloured clothing
18 who were coming into the room, you describe the man whom you say was
19 Dusko Tadic as wearing sunglasses?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And a hat with a Kokarda badge on the hat?
22 A. Or eagles, white eagles, I thought.
23 Q. Can you remember what colour hat that was?
24 A. I did not have that much time.
25 Q. The clothing this man was wearing was what kind of clothing?
1 A. Camouflage uniform.
2 Q. Can you remember any colour of any belt that may have been on that
4 A. I cannot really affirm that, but I guess it was white of the military
5 police, or was it a new belt which would be of a light colour.
6 Q. Is the answer to that that you do not know?
7 A. One of those two things -- it was either white or it was a new belt
8 which had not been worn yet.
9 Q. On the man's face was he wearing a beard?
10 A. It is possible a day's growth or two days' growth, but I cannot claim
11 that with certainty.
12 Q. Do you remember giving a description of this man in 1994 when you
13 said he had sunglasses and a beard?
14 A. It is possible that he had a beard, but not a big one because when
15 one does not shave for a day or two, he already has a beard.
16 Q. What I was asking was, do you remember giving a description of this
17 man in 1994 when you said he had sunglasses and a beard?
18 A. As I told you there in the court, that is how it was.
19 Q. I am just asking whether you gave this description about two years
20 ago, that he had a beard?
21 A. I cannot say that he had a beard. I said, perhaps, he did have a
22 beard but not a real beard. He was simply unshaven. He had not
23 shaved for a day or two. I could not really see that.
24 Q. Did you read that statement recently before you came into this court
25 to give evidence?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Perhaps you would like to look at a copy of it in your own language?
3 This will be D25, your Honour, which I tender and I believe the
4 Prosecution have a copy of this in Serbo-Croat; Mr. Keegan tells me he
6 (To the witness): If you turn to page 4, Mr. Mujcic, you
7 will see -- just read this to yourself -- two-thirds of the way down
8 the page the names listed, Jasmin Hrnic, Emir Karabasic and Eno Alic,
9 but there is a paragraph above there in which you give a description
10 involving the sunglasses. Can you see that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. It is from this statement here that I ask you the question about
13 whether the man had a beard, because it says here, does it not, that
14 that is what he had?
15 A. If it is written here, maybe I said it, but here I am telling what
16 kind of a beard it could be. For me, a beard of one or two days, it
17 was not like this long.
18 Q. Are you trying to alter the appearance of that man because you have
19 heard other evidence in this case?
20 A. I am not trying that.
21 Q. Because what I suggest to you is this, that that man was not Dusko
22 Tadic, that you have mistaken the identity of that man?
23 A. Had I not known him, I could have made a mistake, but since I knew
24 him, both with a beard and without beard, and since he has a strong
25 dark beard if he does not shave for a day, I think that is already a
1 man with a beard.
2 Q. But when you went upstairs were other people saying to you, "It is
3 Dule, it is Dule"?
4 A. No, they were not saying it was Dule, but when I got into the room
5 people were already scared as if they knew who was there and what was
6 going to happen.
7 Q. So was there a rumour going around from people who did not know, who
8 said that it was Dule?
9 A. From what I have heard in that room, in room 15, that Dule was
10 already there and only a door separated us from that room, so that
11 people already knew.
12 Q. So there was talk in that room upstairs from people who had just been
13 upstairs, not been outside, that said it was Dule?
14 A. We could not talk and we did not feel like talking. We were all
15 afraid. My opinion is that somebody heard from people and I conclude
16 that based on when Eno Alic was called out, he appeared to have known
17 who was looking for him. He was scared and he said, "He is going to
18 kill me".
19 Q. You did talk and others were talking about this man whilst you were
20 upstairs in that room?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You told us ----
23 A. No, no talking.
24 Q. You told us you talked to G?
25 A. That is possible when he came back later after everything that
2 Q. One other area that I want to question you about and that concerns
3 your seeing Dusko Tadic in Kozarac after the shelling of Kozarac. Do
4 you remember telling the Court about that today?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You told us that he was on a tank that was stationary outside the
7 restaurant building which you have identified in Marsala Tita Street,
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you remember also saying in interview, this interview, that Dusko
11 Tadic was wearing a mask and rode through Kozarac standing on a tank?
12 A. No, I said that he had a camouflage uniform. I do not remember any
13 mask. I do not remember saying anything about any mask.
14 Q. Putting that on one side then, can you remember saying that he rode
15 through the town standing on a tank?
16 A. I said here that at the moment when I saw him I did not remember
17 whether the tank was moving or just stopped there. I knew it was
18 stationary. Maybe it had just arrived. There was a noise of the
19 engines running.
20 Q. Yes. You said that it was stationary and that he jumped off and hit
21 a young boy and you have not read this statement, as you have told us,
22 before you gave evidence in court here?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Maybe you would just like to turn to page 6 of that statement and
25 have a look. You will see the third paragraph down from the top of
1 the page where it begins "Answer". It is right it appears that you
2 said then in '94 that he rode through the town standing on a tank?
3 Was that right or wrong?
4 A. I do not remember that that is how I put it.
5 Q. Right, and is it the case here that after all that has happened to
6 you, you are prepared to make up things to incriminate Dusko Tadic
7 because you want some sort of revenge against him or the Serbian
9 A. First, I am not accusing Dusko Tadic. The Tribunal is accusing him,
10 and if I wanted to exact revenge on Serbian people I would have gone
11 to the Bosnian Army and I would not have stayed where I am.
12 MR. KAY: I have no further questions.
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Keegan, redirect?
14 MR. KEEGAN: Just briefly, your Honour.
15 Re-examined by MR. KEEGAN
16 Q. This statement, Mr. Mujcic, which Mr. Kay is referring to, first off,
17 the translation you are reading is not an original version of Bosnian
18 which you yourself gave or signed; that is a translation of a
19 translation, is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. When you gave that interview, you gave that interview to officials
22 and what you said was translated by someone else into another
23 language, is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You yourself did not produce a statement in your own language?
1 A. No.
2 Q. What is the term that you use to describe camouflage uniform?
3 A. Maskirna.
4 Q. This interview, did that last for a long period of time?
5 A. I cannot remember exactly what time, from the afternoon until the
7 Q. Are these events which you enjoy talking about?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you answer the questions you were asked to the best of your
11 A. They asked me there both what I saw and how things happened in those
12 situations in general, all the situations that happened there, so that
13 I gave a statement about what I heard from other people and my
14 personal experience of what I saw.
15 MR. KEEGAN: Thank you. Nothing further, your Honour.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
17 Further cross-examined by MR. KAY
18 MR. KAY: Would you like to look at the [redacted], Mr. Mujcic, and
19 identify your signature on each page as well as corrections made by
20 you to the text, and your signature confirming that the matter had
21 been translated, read and approved by you in the Serbo-Croat language
22 and you were happy with the interpreter? Thank you, Mr. Usher. Just
23 look at that page that is open -- keep it open, please. It is your
24 signature at the end of the interview, is that right, the signature of
25 a man you were happy to have as an interpreter? If you want to go
1 through the earlier pages you will see your signature on all the
2 pages, some corrections by you to the text as well, is that right?
3 A. I cannot remember all these changes here in [redacted]. They said,
4 "Sign here" and I did. The gentleman who was translating, he was a
5 Serb. I accepted him. I did not know that I had a choice or not.
6 MR. KAY: Very well.
7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Keegan? I have one question. Mr. Kay asked you
8 a question, Mr. Mujcic, as to whether or not you had said in the
9 statement that Mr. Tadic was wearing a mask. Then there was no
10 reference to anything in the statement regarding your having said that
11 he was wearing a mask. Would you look in that statement or, perhaps,
12 counsel can tell me. Did he say in the statement he was wearing a
14 MR. KAY: I accept his explanation that "mask" and "camouflage" are
15 similar expressions and Mr. Keegan makes an entirely valid point
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. That was the word that the witness used for
19 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, your Honour. There was a question about did any of the
20 perpetrators -----
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Keegan, please.
22 MR. KEEGAN: There was a question whether any of the perpetrators wore a
23 mask. The answer was, describing Tadic, and that term was translated
24 as "mask" which was the point in the statement that there are
1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That term in Serbo-Croat means "camouflage"?
2 MR. KEEGAN: Correct.
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Thank you. Do you have any questions, Mr.
5 MR. KEEGAN: No, your Honour.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
7 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to Mr. Mujcic being permanently
10 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.
11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Mujcic, you are permanently excused. You may
12 leave now. Thank you very much for coming.
13 THE WITNESS: Thank you too
14 JUDGE STEPHEN: Mr. Keegan, at some stage I wonder if you could get a
15 witness to explain, to me at least, what a Kokarda is?
16 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, your Honour.
17 JUDGE STEPHEN: It is a term frequently used and I just do not understand
19 MR. KEEGAN: Yes.
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Also, I am not going to ask about the uniforms, but
21 I meant to ask one of the witnesses yesterday, who worked in Omarska
22 and I believe he lived in Kozarac, and we have heard testimony about
23 the distance between Prijedor and Kozarac. I am not sure that we have
24 heard testimony about the distance from Kozarac to Omarska. I wanted
25 to ask the witness how many kilometres it is from Prijedor to Omarska
1 and how long it would take to drive that distance under normal
2 conditions. I do not know that we have that in evidence yet,
3 certainly the distance from Kozarac to Omarska, but we may.
4 MR. KEEGAN: Yes, your Honour.
5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The two questions, mine and Judge Stephen, have
6 nothing to do with each other, but it was just a gap.
7 Miss Hollis, would you call the next witness?
8 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour. Your Honour, the Prosecution calls Elvir
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you.
11 MR. ELVIR GROZDANIC, called.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you please take the oath that will be
13 given to you?
14 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak the
15 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
16 (The witness was sworn)
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you, sir. You may be seated.
18 Examined by MISS HOLLIS
19 Q. Would you please state your name?
20 A. Elvir Grozdanic.
21 Q. What is your date of birth?
22 A. Gornji Garevci in the municipality of Prijedor.
23 Q. What is your date of birth?
24 A. March 17th 1972.
25 Q. When you indicate that you were born in Gornji Garevci in opstina
1 Prijedor, were you born in a village in the area that is generally
2 referred to as Gornji Garevci?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What village were you actually born in?
5 A. Grozdanici.
6 Q. At this time if I could have Prosecution Exhibit 79 provided to the
7 witness? Mr. Grozdanic, if you would take a moment to look at that
8 map to orient yourself and to locate Grozdanici on that map. If that
9 map could be placed on the overhead projector, please. If you could
10 point to that, please. Just a moment while we have to switch over to
11 the overhead projector. Thank you. So that is a Grozdanici?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Could you tell us please, this larger area called Gornji Garevci,
14 what was the nationality or ethnic group of inhabitants of that area?
15 A. Muslim Serb.
16 Q. In the village of Grozdanici, what was the ethnic group or
17 nationality of the inhabitants of the village of Grozdanici?
18 A. Muslim.
19 Q. Sir, what is your nationality or ethnic group?
20 A. Muslim.
21 Q. How far is Grozdanici from the town of Prijedor?
22 A. About 8 kilometres.
23 Q. How far is the village of Grozdanici from the town of Kozarac?
24 A. Also around 8 kilometres.
25 Q. Did you attend primary school both in Gornji Garevci and also in the
1 town of Kozarac?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you perform military service from March 1990 until March 1991?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. As part of that military service did you serve as a military
6 policeman in Stip, Macedonia?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you return to Grozdanici after you completed that military
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you work as a full-time policeman from September 1991 until the
12 attack on Kozarac in May of 1992?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Where did you perform those police duties?
15 A. In Kozarac.
16 Q. That is the town of Kozarac?
17 A. Sometimes in the town of Kozarac and on different parts.
18 Q. And what other parts?
19 A. Gornji Garevci, Kozarusa and Jaruge.
20 Q. You were at this time working full time as a policeman but you were a
21 Reserve Policeman, is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What were your duties?
24 A. My duties were in Kozarac to control traffic and to patrol Gornji
25 Garevci, Kozarusa and Jaruge.
1 Q. Were you issued weapons as part of your duties as a full-time
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What type of weapons were you issued?
5 A. Automatic rifle.
6 Q. Prior to taking this job as a policeman at Kozarac, did you ever go
7 into Kozarac?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How often would you go into the town?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. How often would you go into the town?
12 A. I went to school every day, and during the break three times a week.
13 Q. Then after you completed school, how often would you go into the town
14 of Kozarac?
15 A. We went three times because I played soccer in Kozarac, so we went to
16 practise and to play games.
17 Q. That would be three times in what period, a week, a month?
18 A. A week.
19 Q. Were you familiar with the main business street in Kozarac?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you know many of the people who had businesses and homes on that
22 main street?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you know Dule Tadic?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. How many years had you known Dule Tadic?
2 A. Somewhere around 10 years.
3 Q. How did you know him?
4 A. I knew him as the first time he was my karate trainer of the club in
6 Q. While he was your karate trainer, how often would you have classes
7 with him?
8 A. Twice a week I think it was.
9 Q. In addition to these contacts when he was your karate trainer, what
10 other kinds of contacts would you have with him?
11 A. As passers by.
12 Q. How often would you say on an average you would see Dule Tadic in a
14 A. Somewhere around, before I trained karate about two, three times,
15 maybe more.
16 Q. Then after you trained karate, how often an average would you say
17 that you saw him?
18 A. While I trained karate, while I trained karate or afterwards?
19 Q. After you trained karate.
20 A. Well, I said that two to three times, maybe sometimes more,
21 sometimes less, but that is the average.
22 Q. Did you know any other members of his family?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Who did you know?
25 A. I knew his wife.
1 Q. And what was her name?
2 A. Mira.
3 Q. Do you know where she worked?
4 A. She worked as a nurse in a medical centre in Kozarusa as far as I
5 know, and then in Trnopolje and in Kozarac.
6 Q. Do you know if Dule Tadic had any businesses in the town of Kozarac?
7 A. He had for a while a cafe.
8 Q. Do you know where that was located?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Where was that?
11 A. I am sorry, I cannot hear the interpretation well? In the main
12 street in Kozarac.
13 Q. Perhaps we could have the volume increased. When you say in the main
14 street of Kozarac, if we are talking about the main street and we have
15 this school Rade Kondic school on the one side and the Mutnik Mosque
16 on the other, which side of Mr. Tadic's street were they on?
17 A. On the side of the mosque, just on the on the right side of the main
18 street when you go up from Kozarac.
19 Q. When you say "up" you mean when you go up in the direction of the
21 A. Towards the mosque.
22 Q. Do you recall any of the buildings or businesses that were located
23 across the street in about the same area as Mr. Tadic's cafe?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Which businesses do you recall?
1 A. There was a little down -- there was a pharmacy and then up from that
2 was a hair salon and directly across from Tadic's cafe was a building
3 of a residential building.
4 Q. Do you recall the name of this cafe that Mr. Tadic had?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And what was that?
7 A. Nipon.
8 Q. Did you ever go to that cafe?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Tadic -- during the time that you knew him did
11 you ever see him with facial hair?
12 A. Often.
13 Q. Did you ever see him when he was clean shaven?
14 A. I do not believe so.
15 Q. Did you notice anything characteristic about the way Dusko Tadic
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And what was that?
19 A. His walk was different from the rest.
20 Q. Can you describe in what way it was different?
21 A. His shoulders were a bit wider and he was a bit shorter and, to speak
22 plainly, to use, he was walking like an apprentice.
23 Q. I do not know what you mean by "an apprentice"?
24 A. That is like, I do not know how to express it, it is like a person
25 who is full of himself because people in Kozarac gave him everything
1 so that he can be in Kozarac.
2 Q. Prior to the attack on ----
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Excuse me, Miss Hollis, before you get into another
4 area we will stand in recess until 2.30.
5 (1.00 p.m.)
6 (Luncheon Adjournment).
8 (2.30 p.m.) PRIVATE
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, would you continue with Mr. Grozdanic?
10 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour. Your Honour, in response to the
11 questions that your Honour has asked earlier, we have found either
12 evidence or a witness who will answer those questions for you.
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you, Miss Hollis.
14 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, before we begin with this witness we have one
15 additional quick matter and that is the Prosecution had also requested
16 additional redactions of sensitive matters. Those were at 12.41.38,
17 which was line 3 of page 38, 12.43.46, which was page 38, line 16. It
18 was the same type of redaction we had asked.
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I understand that the Defence has been consulted
20 regarding those additional redactions and there is no objection. That
21 is approved. It will be accomplished.
22 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour.
23 (To the witness): Mr. Grozdanic, before the break we were
24 discussing your knowledge of and relationship with Dule Tadic. In
25 that regard I would like to ask you if you recall prior to the attack
1 on Kozarac an incident with him that occurred on a market day in
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Could you tell us what you recall of that incident?
5 A. I remember it was Thursday, and with Saban Jaskic I was checking the
6 traffic in the centre of Kozarac, and Dusko Tadic came with another
7 person in a white car, in a small Fiat, and parked on the road. I
8 approached him as a member of the Reserve Police and asked him to park
9 on the right-hand side in front of the shoe repair shop so as not to
10 obstruct the traffic.
11 Q. Did Dule Tadic reply to you?
12 A. Yes, he replied as if I was a non-entity and that I was not a person
13 who could order him a thing like that.
14 Q. Do you recall anything else that he said to you on that occasion?
15 A. Yes, I told him, "I am sorry, but I am wearing a uniform and I should
16 like you to respect what I have just said", and then he said, "A day
17 will come when you will also disappear from here".
18 Q. Do you recall when that was before the attack on Kozarac, how long
19 before that?
20 A. I cannot specify the date, I do not really remember it.
21 Q. Where were you on the date that Kozarac was attacked?
22 A. I was in Koncari at a checkpoint.
23 Q. While you were there, was that area also attacked?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What type of attack was it?
1 A. From all types, tanks, mortars, howitzers, anti-aircraft guns.
2 Q. The area of Koncari that was attacked on that day, what was the
3 ethnic group of the people who lived there?
4 A. Muslim.
5 Q. Was your village of Grozdanici attacked that same day?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What damage was done to your village?
8 A. The village was destroyed. Everything was burnt down and people
9 taken to camps.
10 Q. Did you yourself give yourself up to the Serbs on 29th May?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What did you do with your police weapons?
13 A. Turned it over.
14 Q. On that same, 29th May, were you taken to Omarska camp?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you have an escort on that trip?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you know who that escort was?
19 A. Brane Balte.
20 Q. What was his occupation?
21 A. Active duty policeman.
22 Q. Do you know where it was that he worked?
23 A. Before the war, about a month before it, he worked in Kozarac and
24 then he moved to Prijedor.
25 Q. What is his ethnic group?
1 A. Serb.
2 Q. How long were you held at the Omarska camp?
3 A. 72 days.
4 Q. Had you known any of the guards or other camp personnel before you
5 arrived at Omarska camp?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Which of the camp personnel had you previously known?
8 A. I knew Zeljko Meakic, the Camp Commander.
9 Q. How had you known him?
10 A. He was an active duty policeman.
11 Q. Who else did you know?
12 A. I knew Drazenko, I knew Mima, and many others were there I knew.
13 Q. The ones that you knew, what was their ethnic group?
14 A. Serbs.
15 Q. How did you know Mima?
16 A. I knew Mima because we were close friends. We came to each other's
17 home. He came to me and I went to him. We knew each other personally
18 in Kozarac because he often came to Kozarac.
19 Q. While you were in Omarska what building were you kept in?
20 A. I was kept in the big garages.
21 Q. If you could take the pointer that is on the table next to the
22 console and if you could point to that building for the Court?
23 A. (The witness indicated on the model).
24 Q. So you are talking about the large red building?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you. If you could resume your seat then, please? Were you kept
2 on the ground floor or the first floor of the garage building?
3 A. Ground floor.
4 Q. We have requested that copies be made of Prosecution Exhibit 130A
5 which is the floor plan of the garage building. I would ask at this
6 time that one of these copies of the ground floor be marked as the
7 next Prosecution Exhibit in order which should be 271. If that could
8 be provided to Mr. Grozdanic, please? Could that overhead projector
9 be moved closer to him? Mr. Grozdanic, if you could look at that floor
10 plan of the ground floor of the garage building and if you could point
11 to the room in which you were held?
12 A. (The witness indicated on the plan).
13 Q. What is the number in that room you are pointing to? There is a
14 letter and a number, what is that?
15 A. A17.
16 Q. Thank you. Then if that Exhibit could be returned to me for this
17 time, please? If Prosecution Exhibit 248, that is document 19-31,
18 could be called up on the monitor, please? Mr. Grozdanic, would you
19 look at your monitor and see if you have a photo on the monitor before
20 you, if you recognise that?
21 A. Yes, I do recognise it.
22 Q. What is portrayed in that photograph?
23 A. It portrays the door to my dormitory.
24 Q. The door that you used to enter that room, was it the small dark door
25 that is outlined on that photograph?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Mr. Grozdanic, how long were you held in this room which is marked on
3 the floor plan as A17?
4 A. Most of the time.
5 Q. Most of the time that you were at Omarska?
6 A. I am sorry, I did not understand the question.
7 Q. How long were you held in this room which is marked on the floor plan
8 as A17?
9 A. I was there about 65 days.
10 Q. How often did you go out of that room?
11 A. Every day, more or less.
12 Q. While you were at Omarska, did you ever have to perform duties at the
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What duties did you have to perform?
16 A. We had to clean outside and to butcher cows driven from Kozarac for
17 the Serb Army.
18 Q. What other duties did you have to perform?
19 A. We had to clean the red house.
20 Q. In addition to the red house, did you have to clean any other
22 A. We had to clean that slaughter room where we worked.
23 Q. How often would you have to clean this room you have referred to as
24 the "slaughter room"?
25 A. Every day, every morning we would come.
1 Q. What would you find in there when you went to clean it?
2 A. We would find human clothes, blood, footwear and empty pistol
4 Q. How often did you clean the red house?
5 A. About three or four times.
6 Q. What did you find in there, those three or four times you cleaned the
7 red house?
8 A. We found mostly bodies, beaten up, dead people inside, a lot of gear
9 with which they tortured people.
10 Q. Did you ever have to load any of those bodies on to anything?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. How many times did you have to do that?
13 A. I remember one occasion when I did it at night.
14 Q. What type of vehicle or what did you load those bodies on to?
15 A. A yellow small TAM truck which beforehand was used in the Omarska
17 Q. These bodies that you saw in the red house, did you notice any
18 injuries or wounds on these bodies?
19 A. They mostly had some clothes on, but one could see that their heads
20 were broken, that their arms were broken.
21 Q. Did you know or recognise any of these bodies, any of these people
22 whose bodies you loaded?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Who was that?
25 A. I am sorry, could you put it -- speak up a little bit?
1 Q. Yes, if the interpreter could please speak up a little or perhaps we
2 can increase the volume again? Sir, the question was did you ever
3 recognise any of these people whose bodies you found in the red house?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Who was it that you recognised?
6 A. Once I recognised Vasfo Kejmanovic.
7 Q. To your knowledge, what was his ethnic group?
8 A. Muslim.
9 Q. Sir, I would like you to once again stand up and come around to the
10 front of the model. I am going to ask you to point to the structure
11 you call the "red house" and then point to the structure you call the
12 "slaughter" room. If you would first point to the red house?
13 A. (The witness indicated on the model).
14 Q. This is a small red building on the same side as the white house and
15 across from the end of the large garage building?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Then if you would point to the slaughter room?
18 A. (The witness indicated on the model).
19 Q. Can your Honour see what building is being pointed to? Is that the
20 long rectangular building behind the end of the garage building?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. If you would then resume your seat? Mr. Grozdanic, did
23 you see Dule Tadic when you were in Omarska camp?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. How many times did you see him there?
1 A. Twice.
2 Q. Do you recall the date of either time that you saw him?
3 A. I remember one of the days.
4 Q. What date was that?
5 A. 18th June.
6 Q. I would like to talk first about the time that you saw him on the
7 18th June. On that date in what building were you when you first saw
8 Dule Tadic?
9 A. In the garage.
10 Q. Tell us about that occasion when you saw him, what happened?
11 A. It was in the morning. I was coming out of the WC, and as I came out
12 he was moving from the direction of my dormitory towards the WC. I
13 was somewhat caught unawares. I was frightened. I think I stopped
14 the moment I saw him. He came up to me, caught me up by my face and
15 asked me if I had been on the reserve police in Kozarac. I said,
16 "No". Since I had a crew cut, I did not have any hair and I was all
17 dirty, so I somehow summoned strength to say that I was not, that I
18 had not been. Then he told me that I was from Hambarine and that my
19 name was Jasmin Celic and then he left me.
20 Q. He told you that you were from Hambarine and that your name was
21 Jasmin Celic?
22 A. Yes, I told him that I was from Hambarine and that my name was Jasmin
24 Q. Mr. Grozdanic, I would like to provide you with the Exhibit that has
25 been marked 271. If that overhead projector could be turned around
1 again for the witness, please? Mr. Grozdanic, I would like you to
2 look at that again for a moment. Then I am going to ask you to put
3 some markings on that exhibit. If you would put that exhibit on the
4 overhead projector, please?
5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is the overhead projector on, please?
6 MISS HOLLIS: Now we have it. (To the witness): Mr. Grozdanic, you had
7 indicated you were coming out of the WC, the water closet. Could you
8 point to the room you were coming out of, please?
9 A. (The witness indicated on the plan).
10 Q. What is the number that appears on that room?
11 A. A11.
12 Q. Could you, please, take one of the red pens there and put a "W" where
13 you were standing when you saw Dule Tadic?
14 A. (The witness indicated on the plan).
15 Q. If you could put a "T" where Dule was standing?
16 A. (The witness indicated on the plan).
17 Q. How far away from you was Dule Tadic when you first saw him?
18 A. Oh, it was a short distance, I cannot say, about a metre, metre and a
20 Q. During this incident how long in total did you see Dule Tadic?
21 A. That day, twice that day.
22 Q. But for this occasion only, this sighting only, how long in total did
23 this incident last?
24 A. It could have been about a minute.
25 Q. What was he wearing at that time?
1 A. Camouflage uniform.
2 Q. Do you recall if he had any weapons?
3 A. I cannot remember.
4 Q. Do you recall if he had facial hair or if he was clean shaven?
5 A. He had a beard.
6 Q. Did this incident occur in the morning or in the afternoon, if you
8 A. In the morning.
9 MISS HOLLIS: At this time, your Honour, I would tender Prosecution
10 Exhibit 271.
11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?
12 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 271 will be admitted.
14 MISS HOLLIS (To the witness): Mr. Grozdanic, later that day do you recall
15 your friend, Mima, giving you some food and going with Mima to a
16 location where you ate the food and spoke with him?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did this occur in the morning or in the afternoon?
19 A. In the afternoon.
20 Q. Was Mima wearing a uniform that day?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What type of uniform was he wearing?
23 A. It was an olive, drab uniform. It was a military olive colour
25 Q. Where did you go with Mima to eat this food and talk?
1 A. Not far from the toilet, there was a dumper truck.
2 Q. This is the same toilet that you referred to earlier?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What happened then as you were sitting there talking with your friend
5 and eating this food?
6 A. While we sat there, a military policeman came and brought a young man
7 from Prijedor and following their conversation I thought that it was
8 an auto mechanic.
9 Q. What happened then?
10 A. And then this military policeman asked from this Mima to hand him
11 over his baton.
12 Q. Then what happened?
13 A. And then Mima asked whether I was there in the wrong place and
14 whether I should be removed from there and he said, the military
15 policeman said, no, that I could stay there. Then Mima told me to
16 stay there a while longer, and so he can look if he could take me back
17 to the room where we slept. Then he came back and he said, "Let's go
18 slower", and he and I started and as we walked towards the toilet, I
19 saw a man on the right, right side from the room where I was, there
20 was a table and I saw him beating the prisoners. That man was Dule
21 Tadic. Then I entered the toilet. He left me on the right-hand side
22 in the toilet where he went.
23 Q. Let us go back for a moment to this military policeman and this
24 detainee. Did you recognise or know this military policeman?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Did you know this detainee?
2 A. No, I did not know him either.
3 Q. So your friend left for a while, came back and then took you to the
4 toilet. Is this the same toilet that you referred to earlier?
5 A. Yes, it is.
6 Q. Then he put you or had you go into a certain place in that toilet, is
7 that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Where was it that he told you to go into?
10 A. He told me to the right, to stay there, not to go anywhere, whoever
11 called me, to stay there until he came back.
12 Q. I would like to show you two photographs. I would ask that these
13 photographs be marked 272A and 272B. We have provided black and white
14 copies to the Defence, but if they could be shown the colour copy,
16 JUDGE VOHRAH: Miss Hollis, could you clarify whether the room A12 is also
17 a toilet beside A11 which he has identified?
18 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour. Your Honour, if I could provide another
19 copy of the floor plan or, perhaps, I could retrieve Prosecution
20 Exhibit 271, please? (To the witness): Mr. Grozdanic, before you look
21 at those photographs, I want to give you back Prosecution Exhibit 271
22 which is the floor plan of the ground floor. I would like you to look
23 at that for a moment and then if that could be put on the overhead
24 projector, please? You have indicated that A11 was a toilet. Do you
25 know what room A12 was? If you would look at A12 on the floor plan,
2 A. A12, I think, was some kind of a workshop. I never went in there.
3 JUDGE VOHRAH: I see, thank you.
4 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, Mr. Grozdanic. If 272A could be placed on the
5 overhead projector? Could we pull out, please, and get the entire
6 photograph? Do you recognise what is depicted on that photograph, Mr.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What is that?
10 A. That is as you enter the toilet and this is where the wash basins
12 Q. Then if 272B for identification could be placed on the overhead
13 projector, please? Do you recognise this?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What is this?
16 A. It shows where you went for your bowel movements.
17 Q. Is this the area where you were taken by your friend when he took you
18 into the water closet?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Could you point to the little toilet area that you went into at that
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Please point to that.
24 A. (The witness indicated on the plan).
25 Q. So, as you are looking at the photograph, you went into the last room
1 on the far right of the photograph?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you. I would offer Prosecution Exhibit 272A and B.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?
5 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Prosecution Exhibit 272A and 272B will be admitted.
7 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour. (To the witness): Mr. Grozdanic,
8 what happened then after you went into this one toilet in the WC?
9 A. When I entered in there, this friend said to stay there and not to
10 move until he comes back. After a short while, you could start
11 hearing blows in where the wash basins are and people started groaning
12 from strong pain and from blows.
13 Q. What happened after that?
14 A. After that something like a pause happened again, and it felt like a
15 year. That friend of mine, Mima, came and told me that we can start
16 slowly towards the room where I was before he took me.
17 Q. What did you do then?
18 A. I started with him and as we were walking out past these wash basins,
19 Mima went on the left side and I went on the right side. On the
20 right-hand side under the wash basin there was a dead body. There
21 were no signs of life on him. On the left, in a wash basin there was
22 another body, dead body, and no signs of life. There was a blood all
23 around him.
24 Q. Did you actually check either of these people to see if they were
25 dead or alive?
1 A. No, I did not check because I was just passing as I was going back to
2 the room.
3 Q. Could you recognise either of these two men?
4 A. You could not recognise them because these men were lying on the tile
5 and they were facing down with their faces.
6 MISS HOLLIS: At this time I would like this Exhibit marked as Prosecution
7 Exhibit 273A and B for identification. It is a colour photo copy and
8 a black and white. If that could then be shown to the Defence and
9 provided to the witness?
10 (To the witness): Mr. Grozdanic, do you recognise what is depicted on
11 that photograph?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Is that a picture of the wash room area as you look from the toilet
14 out through the door?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Could you please put the black and white version of that photograph
17 on the overhead projector? If you would again use the red pen and if
18 you could put a No. "1" where the body was that you saw in the
19 concrete wash basin?
20 A. (The witness indicated on the picture).
21 Q. If you could put a "2" where you saw the other body?
22 A. (The witness indicated on the picture).
23 MISS HOLLIS: I would offer Prosecution Exhibit 273A and B for
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?
1 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 273A and B will be admitted.
3 MISS HOLLIS (To the witness): Mr. Grozdanic, did you and your friend then
4 leave the toilet area?
5 A. When I passed two bodies, I was walking out through the door and the
6 man who was beating the prisoners, the inmates, next to the table was
7 walking out with a bloody iron stick through the door that was there.
8 Q. Did you recognise this person?
9 A. Yes, that was Tadic.
10 Q. At the time that you saw Dule Tadic as you left the toilet area, what
11 was your emotional and mental state at this time?
12 A. I was frightened at that time.
13 Q. What did you do after this?
14 A. I started to the right towards the room, and I started running. This
15 friend of mine, Mima, grabbed me by the arm and said, "Take it easy,
16 he will kill us both". Then we both walked slowly. I looked towards
17 my room and there was a military policeman there who was calling out
18 Jasmin Hrnic, "Jasko", to come out.
19 Q. As you went toward your room, what were you focusing on?
20 A. My thoughts were in that moment was to be a bird, to get into the
21 room as soon as possible and to be among the people who were in that
22 room with me.
23 Q. As you walked toward that room were you looking around at all?
24 A. No, my gaze was just trained on the policeman and the entrance door,
25 and I thought whether this policeman is going to tell me something,
1 and whether I am going to manage to enter the room.
2 Q. What did you see as you were close to your room?
3 A. When we arrived in front of it, Jasmin came out -- his nickname was
4 "Jasko" -- and a military policeman asked him, "Why did you not
5 respond right away?" and he said, "I did not know that you were
6 calling me out", and as I was passing he slapped him and then I
7 entered in and went to Jasko's place.
8 Q. So as you were passing who, who were you passing when Jasko was
10 A. I was passing the military policeman and Jasmin Hrnic.
11 Q. When you came to that point and saw the military policeman calling
12 out Jasmin and saw Jasko come out, were you looking around to see who
13 else was there, if anyone, with the military policeman?
14 A. No, I already said that I was only concentrating to get into this
15 dormitory, this room, so that I would be with my friends.
16 Q. Mr. Grozdanic, I am going to provide you with another copy of the
17 floor plan of the ground floor. I would ask that this copy be marked
18 Prosecution Exhibit 274 for identification. If that could be placed
19 on the overhead projector, please? Mr. Grozdanic, you indicated
20 earlier that your friend and you went behind a dump truck or a truck
21 that was close to the room A11, and that after a time you proceeded
22 from behind that truck to room A11 and that as you proceeded there you
23 saw a man you identified as Dule Tadic beating prisoners.
24 What I would like you to do first, please, is I would like
25 you to take that red pen again and I would ask that you put a "W1"
1 where you and your friend were behind that dump truck.
2 A. (The witness indicated on the plan).
3 Q. Then if you could please draw the line to show how you went from that
4 area to the water closet, A11?
5 A. (The witness indicated on the plan).
6 Q. Could you please put a "T1" where you saw Dule Tadic as you walked
7 toward the toilet?
8 A. (The witness indicated on the plan).
9 Q. Would you make a "T1", please? Thank you. At this time I would
10 offer Prosecution Exhibit 274 for identification.
11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?
12 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 274 will be admitted.
14 MISS HOLLIS: Mr. Grozdanic, I am going to provide you yet another copy of
15 that floor plan which I would ask to be marked Prosecution Exhibit 275
16 for identification. Mr. Grozdanic, before I ask you about this floor
17 plan, I want to ask you some questions about the circumstances
18 surrounding your seeing Dule Tadic as you walked to the toilet. How
19 far away from you would you say he was as you walked to the toilet and
20 as you saw him where you marked his location on the prior Exhibit, how
21 far away?
22 A. Somewhere between 20 and 30 metres.
23 Q. When you saw him on this occasion, did you see a full face view of
24 him, a profile view, his back, what could you see of him?
25 A. From his side, the right side of his face.
1 Q. Could you also see his body or only his face?
2 A. The face and all of the right-hand side.
3 Q. How long would you say you were able to see him as you walked back to
4 the toilet from the truck?
5 A. Somewhere around 30 seconds to one minute.
6 Q. What was he wearing at this time?
7 A. Camouflage uniform.
8 Q. What, if anything, did you see in his hand or hands?
9 A. He had an iron bar.
10 Q. I believe you said you saw him beating prisoners. Did you actually
11 see him hitting people?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Could you recognise who he was hitting?
14 A. No, I could not recognise because the person who he was beating was
15 lying on the floor.
16 Q. This Dule Tadic that you saw in profile, did he have facial hair?
17 A. No, he had a beard.
18 Q. I would like you to take the Exhibit that you have just been handed
19 and if that could be put on the overhead projector, please? Mr.
20 Grozdanic, as you came out of the toilet with your friend, Mima, you
21 indicated you saw Dule Tadic. Would you please mark where you were
22 when you came out of that toilet and saw Dule Tadic? Put a "W2",
24 A. (The witness indicated on the plan).
25 Q. Could you please put a "T2" where Dule Tadic was when you saw him?
1 A. (The witness indicated on the plan).
2 Q. In what direction was he walking?
3 A. In the direction towards the large door.
4 Q. If you could, please, draw a line and an arrow showing the direction
5 in which he was walking?
6 A. (The witness indicated on the plan).
7 Q. When you saw Dule Tadic on this occasion, how far away was he from
9 A. Somewhere around 20 metres.
10 Q. Were you able to see his face, his profile, or his back?
11 A. Only from the back.
12 Q. How were you able to identify him if all you could see was his back?
13 A. Because it was the third time that day that I was seeing him.
14 Q. Was there anything else that aided you in your identification?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What was that?
17 A. The way he walked.
18 Q. Would you please draw an arrow in the direction you and your friend
19 went after you saw Dule Tadic?
20 A. (The witness indicated on the plan).
21 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, at this time I would offer Prosecution Exhibit
22 275 for identification.
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?
24 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 275 will be admitted.
1 MISS HOLLIS: I would at this time ask that this black and white copy of
2 the picture of the door to room A17 be marked as Prosecution Exhibit
3 276 for identification. This is a black and white copy of Exhibit 248
4 that has previously been admitted.
5 (To the witness): Mr. Grozdanic, I would ask that you put
6 this black and white copy of the photograph of the door into the room
7 you stayed in on the overhead projector, please? If you could once
8 again take that pen and if you could with the letter "P" mark where
9 you saw the military policeman when you came back to your room?
10 A. (The witness indicated on the photograph).
11 Q. If you could use the letter "J" to show us where you saw Jasko as he
12 exited the room?
13 A. (The witness indicated on the photograph).
14 Q. If you could put "W3" where you and your friend were standing or were
15 walking as you came up to this?
16 A. (The witness indicated on the photograph).
17 Q. As you went past them to go into the room, did you pass out around
18 them or did you come in behind them on the door side?
19 A. Behind Jasmin Hrnic's back and in front of the military policeman.
20 Q. Then if you could please draw an arrow showing the path to the door
21 that you took?
22 A. (The witness indicated on the photograph).
23 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I would offer Prosecution Exhibit 276 for
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?
1 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 276 will be admitted.
3 MISS HOLLIS (To the witness): Mr. Grozdanic, when you went back into this
4 room where did you go?
5 A. I went to the place where Jasmin Hrnic had sat.
6 Q. When you went to that place did you see any writing on the wall
8 A. Yes, I saw Jasko written on the wall, "18.6".
9 Q. Prior to your coming back into the room at that time, had you ever
10 seen that writing with that date "18.6" on the wall?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you ever see Jasko Hrnic again after this incident?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You have indicated that you saw Dule Tadic at Omarska two times. I
15 would now like to talk to you about this other time that you saw him.
16 Do you recall when that was?
17 A. I do not remember the date.
18 Q. What happened on that occasion when you saw Dusko Tadic at Omarska?
19 A. We were ordered to clean the large room, the big garage, and we did
20 that with another inmate. When the garbage was to be thrown away into
21 the containers, we started for the containers, and as we were coming
22 out of our big building at the door by the white house, there were all
23 inmates had been taken out in front of it, and water was poured and
24 they were jumping all over them and forcing them to grunt as pigs.
25 Then as I was coming out, I recognised Dusko Knezevic and Jovic.
1 There were others, but I did not recognise them and I did recognise
2 Dusko Knezevic and Jovic.
3 We continued towards the container. Not far from us, a lad
4 from Prijedor, a Muslim, had a wheelbarrow and in it he was driving a
5 man beaten up in front of the white house who could no longer do what
6 they had been asking them to do, asking him to do, and behind him was
7 Dule Tadic carrying a fire extinguishing device in the left-hand side,
8 and in his right hand he had the hose of the fire extinguisher.
9 Now, as we reached the container to throw away that garbage,
10 Dule Tadic shoved a hose into the mouth of the man lying in the
12 Q. The hose, you mean the hose from the fire extinguisher?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What did you see after that?
15 A. After that we returned back towards the dormitory and Dusko Tadic --
16 Dusko Knezevic and Jovic continued to harass, to beat, to ill-treat
17 the inmates who had to grunt as pigs and to pick the grass with their
19 Q. So as you came from the garage building, as you came out of the
20 building, the first group of people that you saw were mistreating
21 detainees from the white house?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Was that the group that Dusko Knezevic and Jovic were among?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What did you see them doing to the detainees as you came out?
1 A. They were jumping all over them, beating them and ill-treating them
2 and all the rest that one could do. We were -- we did not dare look
3 because we were frightened, because we were panic stricken.
4 Q. You indicated as you came back that they were making these people act
5 as pigs. What do you mean? What were they doing?
6 A. They had poured water on the grass and then they forced them to pick
7 that grass with their teeth, to munch it and to grunt as pigs do. Of
8 course, in their plum tree orchards pigs used to do it and they had
9 forced our people, Muslims, to do that in front of the white house.
10 Q. In what general area were they when you saw them, Dusko Knezevic,
11 Jovic and the others and the detainees?
12 A. They were as you head for our building, for our garage, on the
13 right-hand side at the corner of the white house facing our building.
14 Q. Then as you saw this you then began walking toward garbage
15 containers, is that correct?
16 A. When we saw that the first time, yes, we were walking towards the
17 garbage containers.
18 Q. In what general area were these containers located?
19 A. The container was not far away from the kitchen, in the corner.
20 Q. As you walked toward the containers you first saw Dule Tadic, is that
22 A. We first saw Dusko Knezevic and Jovic down there and not far from
23 that, as we were moving towards the container, we saw that Muslim and
24 that man driving in a wheelbarrow and inmate beaten up and Dule Tadic
25 following after them.
1 Q. In what general area was Dule Tadic when you first saw him?
2 A. He was in the area of the white house, perhaps 50 metres away from
4 Q. Then when you arrived at the containers where was Dule Tadic at that
6 A. Dule Tadic -- at that moment Dule Tadic was to the side of the
7 containers so that we could see a full part of his body.
8 Q. Did you know the name of that man who was pushing the wheelbarrow?
9 A. Yes, his name was Amir and he was from Prijedor.
10 Q. Had you known this man before the camp?
11 A. I knew him from sight.
12 Q. To your knowledge, what was his ethnic group?
13 A. Muslim.
14 Q. There was a man in this wheelbarrow that was being pushed by Amir?
15 A. Sorry, I did not understand your question.
16 Q. There was a man in the wheelbarrow that was being pushed by Amir?
17 A. Yes, there was. He was, I think he was a Muslim. I did not know
18 him. I did not know the man in the wheelbarrow.
19 Q. Could you tell if the man in the wheelbarrow was dead or alive?
20 A. No, I could not see that.
21 Q. When you came out of the garage building and saw Dusko Knezevic and
22 Jovic, how far away were they from you?
23 A. Somewhere about 30 to 40 metres.
24 Q. I believe you indicated when you first saw Dule Tadic that he was
25 perhaps 50 metres from you?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. When you were at the garbage containers and saw Dule Tadic put the
3 nozzle or the hose in the man's mouth, how far away from you was he?
4 A. Well, that was that distance or thereabouts, about 50 metres.
5 Q. As you saw Dusko Knezevic, did you see him in profile only, a full
6 view of him or in the back?
7 A. We saw him from the front.
8 Q. When you first saw Dule Tadic, did you see him as a full view, a
9 profile view or from the back?
10 A. The first time we saw him we saw his right profile from the side.
11 Q. When you first saw him how long a time were you able to look at him?
12 A. I could after the container, but it was intermittent.
13 Q. Then when you were at the container and saw Dusko Tadic, how long
14 did you look at him, if you can estimate that?
15 A. About a minute.
16 Q. At that time did you have a full body view of him, a full face view,
17 a profile or only his back?
18 A. I could see his whole body and his face.
19 Q. What was Dusko Tadic wearing that day?
20 A. I think he was also wearing a camouflage uniform.
21 Q. Did you see any weapons that he was carrying or that were on his
23 A. I could not say that, I did not notice weapons.
24 Q. Do you recall whether he was clean shaven or had any facial hair at
25 that time?
1 A. He had a beard.
2 Q. You said that you identified Dusko Knezevic and Jovic. Had you known
3 Dusko Knezevic before you went to Omarska?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. How long had you known him?
6 A. Well, for a long time.
7 Q. How did you know him?
8 A. I knew him because he lived in a locality called Orlovci and I lived
9 at Gornji Garevci and it was the adjacent place.
10 Q. Did you ever play sports with him or play against him in sports?
11 A. Yes, we worked together, we went to tournaments to Malo Palanciste
12 and Orlovci.
13 Q. Did you know any of the jobs that Mr. Knezevic had held?
14 A. As far as I know, he was a farmer because he used to come to my
15 father with a tractor to mow grass and while I was in the army he was
16 in Kozarusa, in the club working as a waiter.
17 Q. Can you describe Mr. Knezevic for us?
18 A. Mr. Knezevic was rather tall, a big man, round face, chestnut hair,
19 brown hair.
20 Q. Did you ever have any difficulty distinguishing him from Dule Tadic?
21 A. No.
22 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, at this time I am going to ask the witness to
23 move to the model and to use some yellow stickies to indicate where he
24 was and where these individuals were at different points during this
25 incident. So I would ask that we use the camera for this.
1 Mr. Grozdanic if you could sit back just a bit from your
2 microphone? Thank you. Mr. Grozdanic, I am going to ask at this time
3 that you come around to the model again and put on these headphones.
4 Then I am going to ask you to mark various areas. Mr. Grozdanic,
5 first of all, I am going to ask that Miss Sutherland hand you the
6 letter "W" and that you place the letter "W" where you were when you
7 saw Dusko Knezevic as you came out of the garage building?
8 A. (The witness indicated on the model).
9 Q. Then if you could take the letter "K" and if you could place that
10 where you saw Dusko Knezevic?
11 A. (The witness indicated on the model).
12 Q. If you could take the letter "W1" and place it where you were when
13 you first saw Dule Tadic?
14 A. (The witness indicated on the model).
15 Q. If you could take the letter "T" and place it where Dusko Tadic was
16 when you first saw him.
17 A. (The witness indicated on the model).
18 Q. Then if you could please take "W2" and place it where you were at the
19 containers when you saw Dule Tadic put the nozzle in the man's mouth.
20 A. (The witness indicated on the model).
21 Q. Then if you could take "T1" and place it where Dule Tadic was when
22 you saw him place the hose in the man's mouth.
23 A. (The witness indicated on the model).
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Grozdanic. If you could resume your seat, please?
25 Your Honours, we are again going to attempt to have a photograph made
1 that will show those placements.
2 Mr. Grozdanic, were you ever interrogated while you were at
3 Omarska camp?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. How many times were you interrogated?
6 A. The first day I arrived, immediately, and once a policeman from Banja
7 Luka came who took me for interrogation, and the last time when they
8 took me to the white house.
9 Q. During these interrogations were you beaten?
10 A. The second time I was taken by those mottled ones from Banja Luka,
11 "sarenci" as we called them, and they provoked me all the night, beat
12 me, put their knife into my mouth, a pistol to my ears and all the
13 rest of it.
14 Q. You say "the mottled ones", "sarenci", what are those, what do you
15 mean by that?
16 A. We call them that because they had green camouflage uniforms and they
17 also called themselves that. When they would be coming to the camp,
18 they would say that "Sarenci were coming, that the mottled ones,
19 motley ones were coming". It must have been a special unit from Banja
20 Luka because whenever they came to the camp they came with APCs.
21 Q. On this third occasion in the white house when you were interrogated,
22 were you also beaten on that occasion?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you know any of the people who beat you on that occasion?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Who was it that you recognised?
2 A. Drazenko who had taken me there to the white house.
3 Q. How badly beaten were you on that occasion?
4 A. The first time they took me in, they beat me. Right as you come into
5 the white house, there was a tiny room and in it there was a cable
6 tied to the ceiling, and they tied it around my neck so they beat me
7 for about two or three minutes.
8 Q. Then were you beaten after that as well?
9 A. Yes, then they took me out, to the white house, to the last room to
10 the right, and ordered me to stand against a wall in the right-hand
11 corner of the wall, and to lean against a wall with both my hands or,
12 rather, with three fingers with my both hands. I did it and then
13 Drazenko began to beat me there with the baton on the back, on the
14 head, on the arms, and if I happened to put all my five fingers
15 against the wall, then he would hit me on my hands.
16 During a very short time, after a very short time, of about a
17 minute or two, another guard came who always sat by the kitchen, at
18 the corner by the kitchen. I do not know his name. He must have
19 weighed between 70 to 80 kilogrammes, a young guy, and he entered the
20 dormitory. He came behind my back to the other wall, and then pushed
21 himself from that wall with both his hands and jumped with his feet
22 against my back and Drazenko continued to beat me with a baton.
23 As he was beating me, I could no longer after some seven or
24 eight times when he struck me against my spine, I could not endure it
25 any longer because the pain was excruciating and I fell to the ground.
1 When I fell, Drazenko and that one dragged me into the middle of the
2 dormitory and then Drazenko pulled out a knife and drew on my right
3 shoulder a cross.
4 Then a chap came in, another guard, and told me that he was
5 fucking my balija mother, why were we saying that he was beating us
6 when he did not beat us, and he kicked me in the head. I began to
7 bleed at the mouth and nose. His tennis shoe was also bloody. He
8 said, "Why do I have to beat him like this if I can do it otherwise?"
9 So he came out and returned after a minute and a half carrying a rod
10 in his hand and he struck me on the head. When he lashed me on the
11 head, the blood spurted and I think -- I thought that my whole head
12 was swelling, was exploding.
13 Then another guard came in and they were dragging me around
14 the floor in that room. They started beating me again. The one who
15 used to jump against my back, he was beating me with a baton on the
16 head, and Drazenko was also hitting me and putting his cigarettes out
17 on my back. The one with the rod was hitting me on the ankles and
18 wrists, and so they were beating me and Drazenko, as they were talking
19 all the time, Drazenko said that he could really stand a lot and that
20 he will either kill me or let us see how long he will endure me. I
21 thought that it was their purpose and then, I guess, dear God gave me
22 courage so I managed somehow to get spittle in my mouth and I
23 pretended to faint. Then one of them said, "Oh, we have managed to
24 beat him out of consciousness".
25 When he said that, they gave up and then it just went through
1 my mind where I had been, what I had passed through and how did I
2 surrender into their hands. I saw in my mind my mother, my father.
3 They all went through my mind. When I remembered my wife, I knew that
4 she was pregnant, that she had stayed behind and I said, "Oh, dear
5 Lord, what have I done to you? I will never live to see my child".
6 Q. Mr. Grozdanic, as a result of the beating that you suffered that day,
7 what injuries did you suffer?
8 A. I still suffer the effects. My head aches, my spine hurts, my joints
9 are painful, but the worst one is the pain in my heart. I am a
10 Bosniak, I am a Muslim, and I have lived to bear a cross on me which I
11 do not want, but I have it. I can prove it to all of you that I have
12 this cross on me. It is on my right shoulder -- if the camera can
13 show it and it is here.
14 Q. Mr. Grozdanic, were you taken from Omarska camp to Manjaca when the
15 other prisoners were taken from the camp?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Were you taken to Trnopolje from Manjaca because of your poor medical
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you ever see Dule Tadic while you were at Trnopolje?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. How many times did you see him there?
23 A. Once.
24 Q. Do you recall when that was?
25 A. That day when 1600 people went with UNICEF and the International Red
1 Cross to Karlovac.
2 Q. On that day where were you when you saw Dule Tadic?
3 A. When I saw him I was in front of the school in Trnopolje.
4 Q. Where was Dule Tadic?
5 A. Dule Tadic was at the corner of the school fence, not far from the
7 Q. What was he doing there when you saw him that day?
8 A. He was standing and watching, can it be that so many are coming out,
9 that I had not killed more?
10 Q. What was he wearing that day?
11 A. Camouflage uniform.
12 Q. Did he have any weapons?
13 A. He had a PAP, a rifle.
14 Q. What kind of a rifle is that?
15 A. It is a semi-automatic rifle.
16 Q. Do you recall on that occasion was he clean shaven or did he have a
18 A. He had a beard.
19 MISS HOLLIS: At this time I would ask that this photograph and a black
20 and white copy of it be marked as Prosecution Exhibit 277A and B for
21 identification; the colour photo being A and the black and white being
22 B. If the colour photo could be shown to the Defence, please, and if
23 the technician could hook up the overhead projector?
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, before you move into that next area, we
25 will stand in recess for 20 minutes.
1 (4.00 p.m.)
2 (The Court adjourned for a short time)
3 (4.20 p.m.)
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, would you like to continue, please?
5 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour. (To the witness): Mr. Grozdanic,
6 before we took the recess I was asking you to look at the colour
7 photograph and the black and white copy that are there before you,
8 Prosecution Exhibit 277A and B. Do you recognise what is depicted in
9 that photograph?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What is that?
12 A. The school in Trnopolje.
13 Q. If we could have the black and white copy of that photograph placed
14 on the overhead projector? If you could once again take the red pen,
15 please, and if you could put the letter "W" where you were standing
16 the day that you saw Dule Tadic at Trnopolje camp?
17 A. (The witness indicated on the photograph).
18 Q. If you could please put the letter "T" where Dule Tadic was standing
19 the day that you saw him?
20 A. (The witness indicated on the photograph).
21 Q. The day that you saw him at Trnopolje camp, these logs in the picture
22 were not there, is that correct?
23 A. No.
24 Q. They were not there?
25 A. No, they were not there.
1 MISS HOLLIS: At this time I would offer Prosecution Exhibit 277A and B.
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?
3 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 277A and B will be admitted.
5 MISS HOLLIS (To the witness): Mr. Grozdanic, would you please look around
6 the courtroom and see if you see the Dule Tadic you knew from Kozarac
7 and that you saw in Omarska and Trnopolje camp?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Would you please point to where he is seated and tell us where he is?
10 A. Between the two policemen, in a white shirt.
11 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I would ask a proper identification of the
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, the record will reflect that the witness has
14 identified the accused.
15 MISS HOLLIS (To the witness): Mr. Grozdanic, where did you go from
16 Trnopolje camp?
17 A. To Karlovac.
18 Q. Prior to the attacks in opstina Prijedor that began in 1992, were you
19 a member of any anti-Serb military or paramilitary organisation?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Were you a member of any organised armed Serb resistance group?
22 A. No.
23 Q. After the attacks began did you become a member of any such group?
24 A. No.
25 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I have concluded my questions. At this time I
1 would like to offer into evidence two photographs that were made of
2 the markings that Mr. Grozdanic put on the model. I would ask that
3 they be marked Prosecution Exhibit 278A and B. A will be the portion
4 showing the markings at the hangar of the garage building in the white
5 house, and B will show an overlap with the white house and then show
6 the markings by the restaurant building. These have been shown to the
7 Defence, your Honour.
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Exhibits 278A and B?
9 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: They will be admitted.
11 MISS HOLLIS: No further questions.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Cross-examination?
13 MISS DE BERTODANO: Yes, your Honour.
14 Cross-Examined by Miss DE BERTODANO
15 Q. Mr. Grozdanic, it is now four years since the events that you have
16 been telling us of today, that is right, is it not?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. During that time you must have seen a lot of media coverage about
19 what happened in Omarska camp, is that right?
20 A. I am not interested in the media. My head is full with what I saw.
21 Q. Are you saying that you have never seen any media reports concerning
22 the events in Omarska camp?
23 A. I said once, I do not want to watch something that I once
24 experienced. I would be the happiest if I could forget it and I
25 cannot forget it ever.
1 Q. But, Mr. Grozdanic, it is true that you have seen a film made by
2 Monika Gras about Omarska camp, is it not?
3 A. No, it is not like that because my working hours are 4.30 to 9.30 and
4 I have no time for any movies, and I want to do sports during the
6 Q. Mr. Grozdanic, do you recall making a statement to the [redacted]
7 police in June 1994?
8 A. Yes, I gave a statement but I cannot remember the date or the year.
9 Q. Perhaps I could have this marked as Defence Exhibit 26 and hand it to
10 the witness? If I could ask you to turn to page 4 of that statement,
11 the third full paragraph down which starts "Jedan od" do you see that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Perhaps you could read out that sentence to the Court?
14 A. I do not believe that I said that.
15 Q. Perhaps, Mr. Grozdanic, if you could first read the sentence so the
16 Court knows what you do not believe that you said?
17 A. "One of those two whom I recognised later in Mrs. Gras's film as G".
18 Q. That suggests, does it not, Mr. Grozdanic, that you watched Mrs.
19 Gras's film?
20 A. No, I did not see the film of Mrs. Gras.
21 Q. Very well. Do you know who is meant by G in this court?
22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do not mention the name, sir.
23 THE WITNESS: No.
24 MISS DE BERTODANO: Perhaps in that case I could write the name for you
25 which you could look at and not read out? If that could be shown to
1 the Prosecution first and then to the witness?
2 (To the witness): Do you know that person, Mr. Grozdanic?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you ever speak to him after you had been detained in Omarska
6 A. At Manjaca.
7 Q. Did you speak to him concerning the incident you have told us about
8 today which you say occurred on 18th June?
9 A. What I said today about that event, nobody could tell me that because
10 I saw it with my own eyes.
11 Q. Very well, Mr. Grozdanic. All I am asking you is whether you ever
12 spoke to witness G about that event.
13 A. No, I did not talk to him because this person is very beaten down
14 psychologically from everything that happened to him in the camp.
15 Q. So when you say in the same paragraph of that statement, "He told us
16 later in the Manjaca camp that he had been forced to do it", it is
17 not, in fact, true that he told you that at all?
18 A. Listen, I said in my statement I do not want my statements to relate
19 anything except for what I saw with my own eyes, and that is what I
20 stand behind, only what I saw.
21 Q. Very well. You said in your evidence that you knew the defendant
22 Dusko Tadic well, is that right?
23 A. Yes, I knew him, but as good as a friend that I did not know, but
24 good enough so that I can identify him in any moment.
25 Q. You went to his karate classes, he was your karate trainer, is that
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You would have contacts with him in passing? Presumably, if you met
4 in the street or in a bar you would greet him, is that right?
5 A. Naturally, we all in Kozarac respected him as an athlete very much.
6 Q. You would see him before the conflict on average two or three times a
7 week, is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. If I could turn then to what you have told us about what happened on
10 18th June. You told the Court that in the morning of that day you saw
11 Dusko Tadic?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. This was when you were coming out of the toilets at the camp?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You saw him and he stopped you?
16 A. Yes, he did not stop me, but from fear I, sort of, had a sense that I
17 just stopped myself.
18 Q. He then asked you some questions. He asked you whether you had been
19 on the reserve police in the Kozarac, is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did he not, in fact, ask you something more than that? Did he ask
22 you whether you knew where someone called Elvir Grozdanic was?
23 A. I do not remember that.
24 Q. Perhaps if we could go back to your statement and if I could ask you
25 to turn to page 3 of the statement and to look at the last paragraph
1 on that page? If we go to the fourth sentence of that paragraph,
2 which starts "Uhvatio me je", can you read that sentence out to the
4 A. "He held me by the chin and asked me if I knew where Elvir Grozdanic
5 was. I said that" -----
6 Q. That will do, Mr. Grozdanic. Elvir Grozdanic is your name, is it
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So I will ask you again whether he asked you if you were a reserve
10 policeman or whether he asked you if you knew where Elvir Grozdanic
12 A. He asked me if I was a reserve policeman in Kozarac.
13 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I am going to object at this point. This is
14 somewhat misleading. If we look at the English translation of this,
15 it indicates, I believe, that he asked him ----
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You are using the English translation?
17 MISS HOLLIS: I believe it is also in this, your Honour. According to this
18 statement, I believe this statement indicates that at this time in
19 this statement the witness supposedly says that Dule Tadic asked him
20 if he knew an Elvir Grozdanic. Then he went on to ask him something
21 about his being a reserve policeman. So if we are going to ask about
22 this, perhaps we should include the entire sentence.
23 MISS DE BERTODANO: Your Honour, I have no objection to the entire
24 sentence being read.
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. So it is not a matter of there being a
1 different translation with his reading in his language and these
2 interpreters translating it one way and then your having the English
3 translation which, I gather, was translated at some other time? That
4 is not the problem. The problem is it just was not complete, is that
5 what you are asking?
6 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour, because the question, your Honour, was did
7 he ask this or that -----
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. That is fine. Go ahead and continue with the
9 full sentence then, Miss de Bertodano. You have no objection to it.
10 MISS DE BERTODANO: The full sentence in the English translation is, "He
11 held me by the chin and asked me if I knew where Elvir Grozdanic was;
12 he said the latter was a reserve policeman". Is that what it says in
13 the Serbo-Croat, Mr. Grozdanic?
14 A. Whether that was the above named reserve policeman.
15 Q. I think the sense of that is the same.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: In any case the witness has answered. OK.
17 MISS DE BERTODANO: If I could put this question then, are you now saying
18 that he did not ask you whether you knew where Elvir Grozdanic was?
19 A. I do not remember whether he asked me. As far as I know, he asked
20 me whether I was a reserve policeman.
21 Q. Would you have been surprised if he had asked you about Elvir
22 Grozdanic, considering that you knew him well and that was your name?
23 A. I apologise. I said that I was not great friends with this person so
24 that he might know my name.
25 Q. Mr. Grozdanic, he would have known you because you had been in his
1 karate class, would he not?
2 A. And what do you think, that only Elvir Grozdanic was in his karate
3 classes and that he only knew of me?
4 Q. Perhaps I will leave that there. You then went on to tell us about
5 what happened later in the afternoon. You said that your friend, a
6 guard called Mima, gave you some food, is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. There were several different shifts of guards at Omarska, were there
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you know whose shift Mima was on?
12 A. I do not want to say that for his own security sake.
13 Q. Perhaps I could ask you then whether Mima was on Krkan's shift?
14 A. Maybe he was.
15 Q. I would be happier if you could give me a "yes" or a "no" answer to
17 A. I already said because of his security I would not like to answer
18 that question.
19 Q. Very well. He brought you some food and he took you to a place
20 beside a dumper truck to eat it, is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You drew for us a diagram of where that truck was and it was very
23 close to the main door into the garage, is that right?
24 A. I do not know from which side you are looking.
25 Q. Was the truck close to the main door?
1 A. I apologise. Did you understand what I asked you, the main door
2 where we got in and out or the large door?
3 Q. The main door opposite the white house where you got in and out.
4 A. Opposite the white house it was the small door and nearby and closer
5 to the large door where the dumper truck came in and out.
6 Q. Could you see the door by which you would come in and out of the
7 hangar from where you were sitting by the trucks, and I mean the small
9 A. I was -- at that moment I was sitting behind a tyre.
10 Q. So your view was blocked?
11 MISS HOLLIS: Excuse me, your Honour. I do apologise for interrupting,
12 but I have a request for a redaction. It is at 16.33.06, page 78,
13 line 22. It is one sensitive word in that sentence. I do apologise
14 for interrupting in the midst of this. It is 16.33.06, line 22, page
15 78, one word. If I could perhaps provide this to Miss Featherstone so
16 she knows what word we are talking about.
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection?
18 MISS DE BERTODANO: None, your Honour.
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. That will be redacted.
20 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour.
21 MISS DE BERTODANO: My previous question to you, Mr. Grozdanic (which you
22 have not answered) was whether your view of the door was blocked from
23 where you were sitting eating your food?
24 A. I apologise one more time. I said before that I was sitting behind a
25 tyre I could not see the door.
1 Q. Thank you. At some stage a military policeman joined you and Mima
2 and Mima went to check whether it was safe for him to take you back to
3 your room, is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. He came back and brought you to the toilets?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. On your route to the toilets you looked to one side and you saw a man
8 who you say was Dusko Tadic beating a prisoner by a table, is that
10 A. At the table with -- not a cable but with an iron bar.
11 Q. Yes. Had you while you had been sitting behind the tyre heard any
12 sounds of someone being beaten?
13 A. I was watching as the military policeman was beating the young man in
14 front of me that he brought along with him.
15 Q. Had you heard any sounds of a beating elsewhere in the hangar?
16 A. At that moment, no, because this was closer.
17 Q. Had you seen Dusko Tadic come into the hangar?
18 A. No.
19 Q. So the first you knew of this incident was when you were on your way
20 to the toilets, you looked to one side and 20 or 30 metres away you
21 saw Dusko Tadic beating a prisoner, is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Was he alone or were there any other guards or soldiers with him?
24 A. As far as I recall, he was alone.
25 Q. You said in your evidence that you had him in your sight for
1 something between 30 seconds and a minute, is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Mr. Grozdanic, how long would it have taken you to get from your
4 position by the tyre to the toilets?
5 A. I could not tell.
6 Q. But it was very close to the toilets, was it not?
7 A. Yes, it was close but it depends on how fast you are walking and how
8 afraid you are.
9 Q. If you are afraid, do you look down or do you look around to see what
10 is happening?
11 A. In every moment I look in front of me and this was in front of me.
12 Q. Was it common in Omarska to watch while prisoners were being beaten?
13 A. According to the rules, they did not want that but we found at
14 moments we always had somebody who saw when the inmates were being
16 Q. But it was a risk, was it not, to watch while a guard was beating a
18 A. Of course it was risky.
19 Q. You on that occasion were prepared to take that risk and watch for
20 some 30 seconds to a minute?
21 A. Yes, because in that moment I was in a position that I had to see it.
22 Q. While you were watching did you see Dusko Tadic do anything else
23 apart from beating a prisoner?
24 A. No.
25 Q. You did not see him standing in front of one of the rooms and calling
1 out some names?
2 A. No.
3 Q. If I could refer you again to the statement that you have in front of
4 you? If you could turn to page 4 of that statement and look at the
5 second complete paragraph? It will perhaps save time if I read the
6 first part of that to you. "At about 5 p.m. the names of following
7 persons were called out: Emir Karabasic, Fikret Harambasic, Eno Alic
8 and Jasmin Hrnic". Then one sentence later: "On the way to the
9 toilet I saw that Dusko Tadic was standing in front of the dormitory
10 and had called out the first three names". No mention of Dusko Tadic
11 beating anyone, simply of calling out the first three names mentioned.
12 Is that what he did, Mr. Grozdanic?
13 A. I apologise. This statement in [redacted], that was totally falsely
14 translated and, second, I never mentioned -- I gave several statements
15 and I do not think that in any of the statements can be found that
16 Dusko Tadic is actually calling out.
17 Q. Mr. Grozdanic, it can be found in this statement, and this is a
18 statement which you have signed on every page and you vouched by
19 signing it for its accuracy. Would you like to see the original
20 [redacted] statement and check that you have signed the pages? Perhaps
21 I could give that statement to the witness, usher? Is that your
22 signature on the front page of that statement at the bottom of the
23 front page?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. If you turn over the following pages, can you see your signature at
1 the bottom of each of those?
2 A. Yes, I see them. But, I am sorry, I already told you the person who
3 interpreted for me that day was a person who was not particularly
4 fluent in [redacted] and, secondly, it was an exhaustive statement
5 about the camp of Omarska, about everything that happened. It was
6 not related to anyone in particular, and I know well what I said, who
7 called out whom. All I know is that Jasko Hrnic was called out by a
8 military policeman.
9 Q. Very well. You then went into the toilet and you stayed there for
10 some time, is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. At some stage your friend, Mima, told you that it was safe to come
13 back again?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. In the meantime, you had been hearing noises which you took to be
16 noises of a beating in the wash rooms outside?
17 A. Before he came for me and called me out, those beatings, those noises
18 and those sounds of beating were before that.
19 Q. Despite the fact that you had been listening to these beatings, you
20 thought that it would be safe for you to walk out into the area where
21 they had been taking place, is that right?
22 A. I trusted that guy.
23 Q. As you were walking through the wash room, you saw two men lying face
24 down with blood all around them?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You told us in evidence today that you could not identify those two
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. But, Mr. Grozdanic, you could identify them when you made the
5 statement that you have in front of you, could you not?
6 A. No, I gave a statement. I know what it says in my statement. In
7 [redacted], I only gave my view, my opinion. They asked me to tell
8 them who could be that approximately and I said, well, they could have
9 been those, but not 100 per cent.
10 Q. So you thought that they could have been Emir Karabasic and Fikret
11 Harambasic, is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What made you think that?
14 A. Because I thought by the size of those people lying there that it
15 could be those persons.
16 Q. Did you think that at the time as you were walking past them or did
17 you think that afterwards when you had heard a bit more about this
19 A. When I returned to the dormitory, I was thinking about who it could
20 have been and what, and then later on I heard that Emir Harambasic
21 (sic) and all the others had been taken out and then it occurred to me
22 that it might have been them.
23 Q. So it was suggested to you by other people that the two bodies you
24 had seen were Emir Karabasic and Fikret Harambasic, is that is right?
25 MISS HOLLIS: Objection, your Honour. He has just said he was thinking
1 about it and he concluded that, perhaps, they were. He did not say
2 that other people told him that. I believe the question is
3 misleading, your Honour.
4 MISS DE BERTODANO: Your Honour, I have the transcript in front of me. It
5 says: "Later on I heard that Emir", I think it means Karabasic, "and
6 the others had been taken out". I was checking whether when he said,
7 "I heard that", he meant that someone had told him.
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I will overrule the objection.
9 THE WITNESS: I am sorry, not Emir Harambasic but Fikret Harambasic. Do
10 you see well?
11 MISS DE BERTODANO: Yes, I think there may have been a mistake in the
13 THE WITNESS: I am sorry once again. How many mistakes are there and you
14 still do not believe me, and I keep saying there are mistakes. You
15 have mistakes and so there are here. I am repeating that my statement
16 was not properly translated in [redacted] and I do not know [redacted]
18 Q. Mr. Grozdanic, it is important for this court that we check every
19 detail of what you are telling us today and if there are differences
20 with your statement that we give you a chance to explain those
21 differences. I will continue by turning to the time when you are
22 being led out of the toilet. You told us today that as you were
23 walking through the door you saw a man 20 metres away walking away
24 from you, is that right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You concluded that this man was Dusko Tadic?
2 A. Conclude? It was Dusko Tadic.
3 Q. He had a stick in his hand?
4 A. An iron rod.
5 Q. An iron stick, and you were so frightened that you started to run, is
6 that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. How long had you had this man who you say was Dusko Tadic in your
9 sight before you started to run?
10 A. I would not be able to say how long, but that man whom I saw and who
11 was Dusko Tadic, it was the third time that same day that I saw him.
12 Q. You walked slowly back to your room after Mima had told you it was
13 unsafe to run, is that right?
14 A. Mima caught me by the hand and told me not to run, that it could be
15 dangerous both for me and for him.
16 Q. So you walked back towards your room and as you approached your room
17 you saw a military policeman standing at the entrance?
18 A. Yes, we were walking towards the dormitory and we saw a military
19 policeman standing in front of the dormitory.
20 Q. Apart from him, did you see any other guards or soldiers or policemen
21 as you were walking back from the toilets?
22 A. No, I do not remember except those two persons whom I saw, which you
23 mentioned, and my eyes, my look was directed at that military
24 policeman and at the door, how to enter the dormitory.
25 Q. You saw and heard the military policeman calling out Jasko Hrnic?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Was the door to that room open or closed when he was calling for
3 Jasko Hrnic?
4 A. I believe it was open.
5 Q. So was he standing by the open door and calling into the room?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. As you watched, Jasko Hrnic came out of that room?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You saw the military policeman slap him?
10 A. I saw the military policeman slap him in the face.
11 Q. Were you afraid when you saw the military policeman by the door of
12 the room which you were heading for?
13 A. Why do you not try to picture yourself in that situation and then you
14 will know whether you were afraid or not?
15 Q. Mr. Grozdanic, perhaps you could answer me simply, were you afraid or
17 A. Every normal man would be afraid.
18 Q. You carried on and walked very close past them into your room?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did the military policeman take any notice of you as you went past?
21 A. No, he already knew whom to beat, perhaps he did, but he did not
22 address me.
23 Q. Was he still standing in the doorway as you went past?
24 A. As I was coming towards the door, Jasmin Hrnic had already come out
25 and as I was passing by them in the meantime he had struck Jasmin and
1 I entered the room.
2 Q. When you entered the room did you close the door behind you?
3 A. No, I do not remember doing that.
4 Q. You went straight to the place where Jasmin Hrnic had previously
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you saw on the wall his name and the date 18th of the 6th next to
8 the name?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. When you saw Dusko Tadic that day, did he have any kind of cap or hat
11 on his head?
12 A. No, I do not think so.
13 Q. Was he wearing any sunglasses?
14 A. I do not think that either.
15 Q. Mr. Grozdanic, to make it clear what I am suggesting to you is this,
16 that you did not see Dusko Tadic at all on that day?
17 A. That is what you think.
18 Q. That you heard afterwards from other prisoners and later from reports
19 in the media about what had happened in that camp on that day, and you
20 made up this story that you yourself had seen Dusko Tadic?
21 A. Thank you very much for all this, and for all this trust that you
22 are showing. After all those atrocities I am quite ready to sit in
23 Dusko Tadic's place and him to sit here if I have said a single lie.
24 Q. If I could turn then to the second occasion on which you say you saw
25 Dusko Tadic in Omarska. This occasion took place after the 18th June,
1 is that right?
2 A. I do not remember if it was before or after.
3 Q. You and another person had been cleaning in the garage building and,
4 as you were coming out of the door, you saw some inmates from the
5 white house being beaten, is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You saw Dusko Knezevic and a man called Jovic beating them?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. If we look to the model we can see that from the door which you came
10 out of to the place where you had to take the garbage to, you would
11 have had to walk right in front of where this beating was happening,
12 is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you consider, as you came out and you saw the beating, that it
15 would be dangerous for you to walk past while this beating was going
17 A. But we had to do it.
18 Q. Well, was there any guard or soldier with you escorting you to where
19 you were taking the garbage to?
20 A. I think so.
21 Q. You did not mention that previously. Why was that?
22 A. Nobody asked me that.
23 Q. Can you remember who the guard who was escorting you was?
24 A. No.
25 Q. So you walked on towards the containers for the garbage and, as you
1 were walking, you saw a Muslim with a wheelbarrow accompanied by Dusko
2 Tadic with a fire extinguisher and a hose, is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In the wheelbarrow was a person who you say was still alive?
5 A. No, I did not say that he was still alive. I do not know. I said I
6 did not know whether he was still alive or not.
7 Q. Very well. You saw Dusko Tadic put the end of the fire extinguisher
8 into his mouth?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Was the wheelbarrow moving when Dusko Tadic did this or had it
12 A. It had stopped not far from the container.
13 Q. The man who had been pushing the wheelbarrow, what was he doing?
14 A. I do not remember what he was doing at that moment.
15 Q. You say that during this time you looked at Dusko Tadic for about a
17 A. Thereabouts.
18 Q. Were you afraid that he would see you looking at him?
19 A. Of course I was afraid.
20 Q. So why did you not do what most people would do in that situation and
21 keep your head down?
22 A. Well, perhaps my eyes turned by themselves to see.
23 Q. For a whole minute your eyes did not turn themselves away again?
24 A. I did not say it was a minute 100 per cent. I said around a minute.
25 Q. This was a man whom you knew and who had been looking for you, is
1 that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And yet you took that risk?
4 A. I was already there, on the way there, so what else could I do?
5 Q. Mr. Grozdanic, you did not like Dusko Tadic very much, did you?
6 A. How do you know that I did not like him?
7 Q. Well, you have come to court today and told us about a parking
8 incident which you considered to be important enough to give as
9 evidence in this court during which you had had a quarrel with Mr.
11 A. That day I was not sent to quarrel with anyone, but only to control
12 the traffic in the high street and I had asked Mr. Tadic to remove his
13 car from the road.
14 MISS DE BERTODANO: Nothing further, your Honour.
15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Redirect.
16 MISS HOLLIS: Before I do that, your Honour, there are several places I
17 would like to note a sensitive word for redaction.
18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes.
19 MISS HOLLIS: The first one was at 16.59, your Honour, page 87 line 8, one
20 word, 16.59.00. The second one was 16.58.18 page 87 line one, one
21 word. After that 16.59.00, page 87 line 8, one word. Then 17.03.16
22 page 88 line 17, one word. At 17.05.54 there is one word in the line
23 and I will get that in a moment. The next is 17.05.56, page 89 lines
24 23/24, one word. Page 89 line 23 is 17.05.54.
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to those?
1 MISS DE BERTODANO: No objection to any of those, your Honour. I apologise
2 for them slipping in.
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No problem. That redaction will be granted.
4 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour.
5 MISS FEATHERSTONE: We think there may be one at 17.00.40 page 87 line 19.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The same situation?
7 MISS FEATHERSTONE: The same situation.
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection? No objection. Those will be
9 redacted. If possible we would like to finish this witness today, if
10 we can.
11 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour, I have very few questions.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Go ahead.
13 Re-Examined by MISS HOLLIS.
14 MISS HOLLIS: Mr. Grozdanic, how old were you when you took the karate
15 classes from Dule Tadic?
16 A. About 10 or 12. I do not know exactly.
17 Q. Are you of the same generation as Dule Tadic or are you of a younger
19 A. A younger generation.
20 Q. When you saw Dule Tadic at Omarska on 18th June was your physical
21 appearance on that date the same as it had been in Kozarac before the
22 attacks on Kozarac?
23 A. No.
24 Q. What was the difference in your physical appearance on that day?
25 A. I looked -- I had a crew cut. My clothes were all torn. I was dirty.
1 Q. You say you had a crew cut. Did you have any hair at all on your
2 head or had it been shaved off?
3 A. Shaved off.
4 Q. At that time to your knowledge had you lost any weight since you had
5 been in the Omarska camp?
6 A. Well, perhaps a kilo, a couple of kilos.
7 Q. On the afternoon of that same day, is it correct that your Serb
8 friend Mima came to the toilet and got you and took you back to your
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Mima accompanied you as you went to your room?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. In the afternoon when the second and third sightings of Dule Tadic
14 occurred you testified to the Defence that that afternoon you did not
15 see Dule Tadic come back into the garage, is that correct?
16 A. I did not see him.
17 Q. You testified in response to a Defence question about this other
18 sighting that you had to take this garbage out to the container. Why
19 did you have to take this garbage out to the container?
20 A. Because we had been ordered to clean it. We did and we had to go and
21 throw this garbage into a container, because had we refused to do
22 that, what would follow? They would kill us.
23 Q. Now you mentioned some problems in the interpretation of the
24 statement, the earlier statement that the Defence has referred to. I
25 want to refer you to a section of that statement which is as, I count
1 the pages, on page 3 and I would like to read something to you and ask
2 you if you know how this word got into the statement. There is a
3 sentence on line 3, it begins with the first full paragraph on that
4 page, saying: "These people who had to drink water in the field like
5 cattle were then beaten up and when they were unable to walk put into
6 something resembling a wheelchair and taken away."
7 A. Yes, that is true. When they interpreted for me in [redacted] that
8 statement the person who was interpreting it did not know the word
9 "wheelbarrow" and that is why that person said "wheelchair".
10 Q. So you said "wheelbarrow", the interpreter did not know "wheelbarrow"
11 and that is how "wheelchair" got into the statement?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. But you signed this statement?
14 A. When this statement was finished it was read to me, but the
15 interpreter repeated to me as I had told him. So she did not tell me
16 the "wheelchair". She said a "wheelbarrow".
17 Q. In this prior statement you did indicate that you had seen the
18 accused on two occasions in Omarska, did you not?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You indicated that one of those occasions was 18th June of 1992?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You indicated that on that date you first saw the accused in the
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You indicated that then in the afternoon you also saw the accused?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You also indicated in this statement that you saw the accused once in
3 Trnopolje camp, is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now there is language in this statement to indicate that when you saw
6 the accused in the morning of June 18th that the accused came to you,
7 held you by the chin and asked if you knew where Elvir Grozdanic was,
8 and then said the latter was a Reserve Policeman. As you are
9 testifying before the Court here today, tell the Court and tell them
10 truthfully and honestly what do you remember Dule Tadic telling you
11 when you saw him in the morning on 18th June?
12 A. He asked me if I had been a Reserve Policeman in Kozarac and I told
13 him I had not, that I was from Hambarine and my name was Jasmin Celic
14 and he turned away and left.
15 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you. Your Honour, no further questions.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Re-cross?
17 MISS DE BERTODANO: Nothing further, your Honour.
18 JUDGE STEPHEN: Witness, at the beginning of your testimony or early in
19 your testimony you said that at the time of the attack you were at a
20 checkpoint at Koncari. That is correct, is it not?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. We have heard a lot about checkpoints in evidence. What were your
23 duties at that checkpoint? You stopped vehicles?
24 A. We stopped vehicles mostly.
25 Q. What was your concern? What sorts of questions did you ask the
1 vehicles you stopped?
2 A. Naturally when we stopped them we would ask for the driving licence
3 and to check whether the vehicle was all right.
4 Q. Well, was it simply a road safety check then or did you have orders
5 as to whom you would stop and whom you would not stop?
6 A. No, we stopped all those who would come along that road.
7 Q. Did you have any orders about doing anything if you found out that
8 the people were Serbs, for instance, or Muslims?
9 A. No, it was the same with everyone. If they had rifles they would be
10 taken to the police station. Be he a Muslim or a Serb or a Croat, it
11 was all the same for all of them.
12 Q. So really the checkpoint was to search for arms, was it, to search
13 for weapons?
14 A. Mostly that, but also of course those who used a car without
16 JUDGE STEPHEN: I see. Thank you.
17 THE WITNESS: Not at all.
18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis?
19 MISS HOLLIS: No, your Honour, nothing further.
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss De Bertodano?
21 MISS DE BERTODANO: Nothing, your Honour.
22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Just one comment before we release the witness, on
23 the Prosecutor's witness list your witness No. 75, we were just
24 wondering, that witness, do you intend to call that witness later on
25 -- of course you can call your witnesses in your own order, but is
1 there some reason why you cannot move that witness up? Mr. Niemann,
2 you want to look at that?
3 MISS HOLLIS: No. 75, your Honour?
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No. 75 I think on your most recent list. If you are
5 not certain, it was just an enquiry that we had. You can tell us
6 about it on Tuesday. Is there any objection to this witness being
7 permanently excused?
8 MISS DE BERTODANO: No, your Honour.
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Sir, you are permanently excused. You
10 are free to leave. Thank you for coming. The court will be adjourned
11 until Tuesday at 10 a.m.
12 (5.30 p.m.)
13 (The court adjourned until Tuesday, 30th July 1996)