1 THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL TRIBUNAL CASE NO. IT-94-1-T
2 FOR THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA
3 IN THE TRIAL CHAMBER
4 Thursday, 6th August 1996
5 (10.20 a.m.)
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We have received word that Mr. Wladimiroff will not
7 be here through to the 9th, is that correct?
8 MR. KAY: That is right, your Honour.
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. I understand there was a problem this
10 morning in bringing Mr. Tadic. I do not know what the delay was, but
11 we have been here waiting. If there is anything that we can do, Mr.
12 Kay, please let me know.
13 MR. KAY: Yes. We are unaware of what happened as yet, only receiving
14 information through the Registry. That is all.
15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Mr. Tieger?
16 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. As the court will recall, Mr. Gutic
17 was on the stand when we adjourned on Thursday.
18 MR. VASIF GUTIC, recalled
19 Examined by MR. TIEGER continued.
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Gutic, you will understand that you are still
21 under oath, do you not?
22 THE WITNESS [In translation]: Yes, I am aware of that.
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, you may continue.
24 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour.
25 Q. Sir, I would like to begin with a point of clarification. When you
1 were testifying on Thursday you mentioned the expression "ici na
2 kupanje" which was interpreted back to us as "to take a swim". Does
3 that expression mean to take a swim such as in a swimming pool or does
4 it mean to take a bath as when someone cleans themselves in a bath
6 A. No, given that there was not enough water in the camp, in the
7 beginning people were allowed to the neighbouring the houses so that
8 they would take a shower or take a bath, but then that was later used
9 as an expression for being able to leave the camp for a while. It
10 meant to go search for food, apart from going for hygienic reasons
11 and, as you put it, not to swim, more to take a bath.
12 Q. When prisoners left the camp briefly for such purposes, were they
13 required to leave some form of identification such as their licna
14 karta, their identification card, with camp authorities?
15 A. Yes. That was the only possible way to leave. Everybody was leaving
16 licna karta at the checkpoint, and then they would have to be back to
17 report at the point, checkpoint, and pick up their licna card, their
18 ID. Then they would be searched to see what they brought in. It was
19 controlled on the part of the soldiers who were manning that
21 Q. As I recall, when we adjourned on Thursday, you were discussing the
22 time when you were taken to the Crisis Staff in Prijedor where camp
23 Commander Kuruzovic and deputy Commander Puhalic and the Balaban twins
24 were. I believe you mentioned that you were taken back by Major
25 Kuruzovic in his vehicle and that he talked a bit on the way back. On
1 the way back to Trnopolje camp from the Crisis Staff, did you see
2 tractors and trailers loaded with furniture and other goods?
3 A. Yes, during our drive towards Trnopolje, we passed checkpoints,
4 Serbian Army checkpoints, and there were Serb tractors who were
5 collecting all the valuables, the furniture, that they would find in
6 Muslim houses, and at one point the Major said that, "This is not how
7 you create a state, how you create a country". He said it pretty
8 strictly and then he remembered how we were here as well. Then he
9 explained he was talking to the soldier who was escorting us, that at
10 that time ones are getting rich by looting these houses, that they are
11 sitting at these checkpoints while other soldiers are fighting in the
12 front line, that in some way that was not right. I do not know if
13 that is what he -- that if he said it because we were there or he had
14 his own reasons, but that is how it was.
15 Q. Sir, on Thursday you discussed beatings and killings in Trnopolje
16 camp. Were there also rapes at Trnopolje camp?
17 A. Yes, unlike Keraterm or Omarska, in Trnopolje the large majority of
18 people consisted of women and children and, unfortunately, women were
19 being taken out by the Serb military and, unfortunately, they were
20 raped during that period of time.
21 Q. Were the women prisoners in Trnopolje or in the surrounding area
22 raped under different circumstances? Were there different categories
23 of circumstances in which these rapes occurred?
24 A. Sorry. Yes, given the place, so to speak, of where the rapes
25 occurred, the girls were taken either outside of the camp, from the
1 rooms in the camp to the houses surrounding the camp, in the vicinity
2 of the camp, or usually the perpetrators were the guards who were
3 guarding the camp, or they were taken to the houses which were farther
4 away from the camp.
5 A third category, I would say, are the girls and women who
6 were in the houses who have in a way been released from the camps to
7 the villages, and from those houses were also taken away and raped.
8 Q. How old was the youngest female you treated for rape or for the
9 aftermath of the rape?
10 A. The youngest young girl that I spoke to after that terrible act was
11 12 and a half years old, and I still remember to date that case which
12 was truly terrifying. It was a girl who was still a child and, as she
13 said, she did not have her first period at the time. She asked -- the
14 night before that, the afternoon, I met that girl in the clinic. She
15 brought her old grandmother to be checked and I talked to her, and the
16 next day after that rape she wanted to talk to me because she knew me,
17 she trusted me. Her mother came to the clinic and this terrible act
18 had occurred, and I agreed to go there because she did not want to
19 come out. She could not. She did not have the strength.
20 So I went to that room which was in a way isolated. I saw her
21 in the corner. She did not register anything around her. So she had
22 that dejected look, she was staring in front of her, sort of,
23 expressionless stare. There was nothing in it. That left a terrible
24 impression on me because I met her the night before. I saw her eyes,
25 those beautiful eyes, and they were gone.
1 I tried to open her up, to help her, to sort of force her to
2 talk so that it would bring some relief because, if I managed to do
3 it, if I succeeded in that, it would save her life because she would
4 not hate all men later. After about an hour of my attempts, I
5 succeeded. She started to talk, to talk, to talk, everything, from
6 the first moment to the last. She was terribly -- that kind of
7 perversion at the way she was raped is just terrible, but she told the
8 entire story and she started crying terribly.
9 Unfortunately, beside that, we could not do much for her. We
10 gave her some painkillers and that day she was deported. I do not
11 know anything about her fate thereafter.
12 Q. Sir, how old or young was the youngest victim of rape whom you heard
13 about from guards?
14 A. Yes, one day one of the guards came up to us who was often at the
15 Trnopolje camp, and he was injured. He asked for medical help. His
16 right arm was hurt by chards of glass, so we needed to disinfect it
17 and wrap it. So then during the conversation here we asked what
18 happened. He said that he had, as he called it, an intervention. I
19 said, I asked what kind. He said that he was at Suhi Brod, that a
20 woman had reported the disappearance of her two daughters at the
21 checkpoint in Kozarac and that they called him up and that he went to
22 intervene and, with his colleagues, he forcibly entered that house and
23 arrested one of the soldiers who, as he said, was playing with two
24 girls who were nude. They were without any clothes. One was 11 and
25 the other one was 12. He said that he was just playing with them,
1 that he was not doing anything, and we could not have known.
2 Q. Were women from Trnopolje subjected to group or gang rapes?
3 A. Unfortunately, those things also occurred. Women who were taken, who
4 were supposed to be deported in trains or buses or trucks would be
5 separated from men in those rooms, and they were taken away to these
6 group rapes. But I talked to one of the victims who was subjected to
7 rapes by several men. She said that that night she was raped by seven
8 men. Only in the morning she was able to escape from them and to
9 return to the camp in the early morning hours. She was asking for our
10 help because she had terrible pains and she was haemorrhaging and we
11 helped her as much as we could.
12 Q. What was her age or approximate age?
13 A. She was 19 and she had a small baby, a six-month old baby.
14 Q. Were women taken in groups from Trnopolje camp to be raped?
15 A. Yes, they were taken sometimes in groups. In Trnopolje camp, it was,
16 what was well known was the so-called night of the tank squad. A
17 group of soldiers came late, around 11 p.m., in some kind of a truck.
18 They entered the movie theatre which was within the camp where these
19 girls and women were located. According to our information, eight to
20 10 women were taken out that night, and two men who were there, who
21 found themselves there, were beaten by iron bars. We treated one of
22 them and we sent him to Prijedor and then he later came back. He lost
23 an eye as a result of the beating.
24 That night, around 2 o'clock in the morning, after midnight,
25 they returned these women, that group, but from another room they took
1 several others and took them with them. Naturally, all the cases are
2 not known to us. They hid it, the women did.
3 Q. Actually, I wanted to ask you about that. Is it possible to estimate
4 with any accuracy the number of rapes which occurred in Trnopolje or
5 the surrounding areas based on the people you treated or the reports
6 you have received?
7 A. Unfortunately, it is difficult to give such estimates. Rape as an act
8 in our region, this is a patriarchal environment and it is a terrible
9 act, so that these victims attempted to hide these as much as they
10 could. Very often, mothers or sisters of girls who would come to us
11 to help them, when we asked them to come and talk to us so that we
12 could see them, they said that they could not because they were
13 threatened that they would be killed if they report this to anyone, to
14 us or others. So that very often we were powerless to do anything
16 It is hard to say, but they were very frequent, very, very
17 frequent. Most frequently, the attempts were made to hide the fact
18 within the circle of the family or the ones who were present at the
19 time when they were taken away, so it was not talked about.
20 Q. Of the categories of potential victims you mentioned earlier, was one
21 group more vulnerable to the risk or likelihood of rape than the
23 A. Yes, very often, most often, so to speak, those young girls, 16, 17,
24 18, 19 years of age, simply they were beautiful and young and so that
25 was, I guess, part of the pleasure. Apart from the age, they also
1 were taking women who were placed in the rooms of either the store or
2 the big hall where they were separated from men, where they were,
3 those who were in the school. Because there were men there, soldiers
4 did not dare go in there as much because they feared reactions of men,
5 however much fear there was, but there was a real possibility that
6 these men would react, that they would protect their sisters or
7 mothers or acquaintances. So that given the location where they were,
8 that played a part.
9 Also, those who were threatened were the girls who were coming
10 bringing food to their brothers or friends. That was our only source
11 of food supply for a while. There was a great hunger at the camp so
12 they had to travel a very dangerous road, several kilometres through
13 the fields or small by-roads. Often times they were accosted there and
15 JUDGE STEPHEN: Can I intervene? The witness mentioned the hall, the
16 large hall, is that the same building as the picture theatre we have
17 heard of?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes, that was a hall where that was before a theatre, a
19 movie theatre house, before the war. That is where they were -- the
20 women were put who were prepared, so to speak, for deportation.
21 MR. TIEGER: What about the women in the areas adjacent to you or
22 surrounding Trnopolje camp from which men had already been cleansed?
23 What was their risk factor?
24 A. For them also there was an enormous risk, because soldiers knew that
25 there were no men there, that all the men were somewhere in camps, so
1 that they could freely come there, move through those villages, enter
2 the houses during the day. They were taking pieces of furniture or
3 electric appliances or such, and at the same time they were observing
4 these girls. Then, usually towards the evening, at dusk, they would
5 come for these girls. They would walk in. They would take the girls
6 that they liked and they were taking them away to some houses of their
7 own usually. There were several houses where those rapes most
8 frequently occurred -- the abandoned Muslim houses that were a bit
9 outside of the village where the Muslim population still lived.
10 Q. Were some of the rapes reported to camp authorities?
11 A. Yes, we found ourselves in a situation, the clinic personnel, that we
12 could not bear any more, all these stories, and we decided to do
13 something. We had to do something, regardless of the risk, that we
14 were exposing ourselves or those persons, and so we reported the rapes
15 to Dr. Ivic and to the Commander of the camp. Dr. Ivic, most of all,
16 organised that five girls who were raped be taken to the
17 gynaecological department in the Prijedor hospital where they were
18 checked. There was a doctor, also Serb, a female doctor, according to
19 my information later, she was fired from her job. She was kicked out
20 of the hospital because she protested over this.
21 We were hopeful, we had great hope, that it would finally stop
22 because everybody knew now what was going on, because now this is not
23 an individual case and that they did not know. That is what we hoped.
24 However, nothing went on.
25 Q. What was the effect of the occurrence of these rapes on the prisoners
1 generally or the Muslim population generally, on their expectations,
2 on their hopes?
3 A. The very act of rape, in my opinion -- I spoke to these people, I
4 observed their reactions -- it had a terribly negative effect on them.
5 They could, perhaps, explain it to themselves when somebody steals
6 somebody from them, or even beatings or even some killings. Somehow
7 they sort of accepted it in some way, but when the rapes started they
8 lost all hope. Until then they had hope that this war could pass,
9 that everything would quiet down. When the rapes started everybody
10 lost hope, everybody in the camp, men and women. There was such fear,
12 They had fear from the night because at night there is a
13 danger of being taken away again. One of them told me, I remember,
14 "Are they going to come for me this night, tonight?" That is the
15 question that is always there. They also knew of some of their
16 neighbours, female neighbours, so they had terrible fear. My personal
17 opinion is that one of the goals of that act was precisely to maintain
18 this fear in the remainder of the Muslim population. That was the
20 Q. Sir, were you in camp on August 21st when a convoy left for Travnik
21 via Vlasic Mountain?
22 A. Yes, at that time I was at the camp.
23 Q. Was there anything different in the way this convoy was handled by
24 Serb authorities than previous or later convoys?
25 A. Yes, there was a great difference in the organisation of this convoy,
1 namely, unlike the convoys that had left earlier, we knew a day before
2 the departure that the convoy was being organised, that it was going
3 the next day. Given that we had two cases, two inmates, that we were
4 taking care of who had broken legs, who were brought back to us from
5 the Prijedor hospital, we asked the Camp Commander to have these two
6 patients released, to allow them to move, that they be moved because
7 we could not help them. He allowed that.
8 All the other prisoners knew about the departure. When the
9 buses arrived, I think there was a small group of women who first got
10 on to the bus, and I was also on it as an escort for my patients.
11 When I got off the bus I saw two, two groups -- one group of persons
12 in two columns who were waiting for this bus to arrive. They were all
13 young people, younger people, between 30 and 50. I was very surprised
14 because no men under 60 could leave the camp. Until then you could
15 not mingle with women and children. It was strictly controlled.
16 Of course, there were exceptions, in some ways individuals
17 could buy their way out, but in this convoy they allowed them to get
18 out. Moreover, behind the bus I saw a large column of people who were
19 ready, who wanted to get on those buses. I was greatly surprised. I
20 saw a guard who was almost pushing people inside so that more of them
21 would fit. For us who were seeing all this, it was a big surprise
22 that day.
23 Q. So is it correct that in other convoys there were strict controls and
24 it was extremely difficult and painstaking to get on, and in this case
25 you saw guards virtually pushing people on to the buses to get them
2 A. Yes, exactly, exactly. They even had problems to prevent them
3 because there was not enough buses. Many wanted to get on when they
4 saw that they had a possibility. That was the last chance for us.
5 Many of them thought that was the last chance to leave. After that
6 convoy, there were no more civilians. Everything was cleansed. Maybe
7 one small group in one village, maybe five families left, but for us
8 it was the last hope. So people went.
9 Q. Did you later learn that this was the convoy from which many men were
10 removed on Vlasic mountain and massacred?
11 A. The same day we heard on the radio -- we had a secret radio -- we
12 heard that there was a massacre on the Vlasic Mountain, Mount Vlasic.
13 Of course, other prisoners also heard about it. The next day, Major
14 Kuruzovic, the Camp Commander, ordered that all prisoners assemble in
15 the yard and he gave them a speech.
16 He said that on Mount Vlasic only 20 people were killed, and
17 that they were brought out or executed by a group of people who, sort
18 of, as he put it, got out of control. But, later our information
19 later, when we left the camp, I found out, we found out, that a large,
20 large number of men from that convoy had been brought out and killed.
21 Q. Was Major Kuruzovic interested in organising another convoy and was
22 that effort blocked by the International Red Cross?
23 A. Yes, after that speech, the Major said to the people that there will
24 be another convoy, that they should not be afraid to get into that
25 convoy. Unfortunately, some believed him and waited for the buses for
1 hours, but they never arrived. At that time the International Red
2 Cross was already coming to the camp. They told us that we should not
3 go in any convoys that have not been organised by the International
4 Red Cross, and from there we would not go anywhere.
5 Q. Sir, were you also in camp when prisoners who had been held in
6 Omarska and Keraterm were transferred to Trnopolje?
7 A. Yes, at that time I was also, and I remember very well that day.
8 Q. Did you see them and treat some of them and, if so, what was their
10 A. Yes, that day when they arrived, they appeared suddenly. Suddenly,
11 there appeared buses who were coming in front of the entrance of our
12 clinic where that main point was and then suddenly these people
13 started coming out -- emaciated, unshaven, long hair, dirty, torn
14 clothes. They were tatters practically, as we say. It was terrible.
15 We were in the clinic and a soldier came and told us, "You
16 don't have the right to leave". The entire perimeter has been
17 additionally manned by soldiers and in columns, in twos, they were
18 entering the perimeter of the camp, and they were in the field in
19 front of the clinic and the movie theatre, and on the other side
20 already the fence, the wire fence, was being put up so that the new
21 arrivals would not be able to mix with the ones who were already
22 there. Apart from this wire fence, there was security, the men were
24 I was watching that and they were coming past me at about 13,
25 15 metres away, and it was tragic that I could not recognise almost
1 anybody. They were very thin. What was characteristic was those eyes
2 that looked big, sort of, protruding since the faces were sunken. I
3 did not recognise my relatives, my good friends. I could not stand
4 that after a while and I started moving slowly towards these people.
5 Since I knew that guard, I tried to talk to them, and their voices
6 were so weak I could barely hear them.
7 I had to come closer and then some of them recognised me and
8 they asked bread, they asked food, fruit. They were terribly,
9 terribly hungry. One of them was lying on the staircase and said he
10 had very strong pains in the leg. I asked the guard to take him to
11 the clinic so that I could check on his leg and he allowed that. He
12 let me. I took him. Somewhere around that time the International --
13 sorry -- the journalists from the western countries arrived so that
14 other prisoners also said that they needed help, so that they just
15 walked past that soldier and came over to us so that the hallway of
16 our clinic was full of these people. We tried to help some of them.
17 We were preparing tea for them so that they could have something to
18 drink, so that they could, sort of, come to in a way.
19 Q. Was this about the same time that the International Red Cross came to
20 Trnopolje camp?
21 A. It was August 4th -- I remember the date well -- and the
22 International Red Cross was to arrive seven days later after that
23 date, more or less.
24 Q. After the arrival of the International Red Cross, was there a change
25 in the conditions within the camp?
1 A. The circumstances changed radically as they brought us food,
2 distributed it among the inmates. They brought medicines for our
3 surgery which we needed urgently as we had many sick people.
4 Furthermore, what was, perhaps, even more important than aid was to
5 inmates was that they brought hope, hope that we might survive. Until
6 that time, we did not know what would happen to us. We were afraid
7 for our lives. But at that moment we trusted the International Red
8 Cross immensely. We hoped that they would rescue us and get us out of
9 that hell that we were living in. Also, our safety had much improved
10 as we were put on record. However, it turned out later that that card
11 did not mean safety by itself.
12 Q. Did the International Red Cross organise a major convoy for prisoners
13 to leave the camp scheduled for October 1st?
14 A. Yes, on October 1st, the International Red Cross organised our
15 evacuation from the camp. Prior to that, lists were compiled. Each
16 of us was given a number, especially people who had to leave the camp.
17 However, the Serb administration of the camp was making trouble and
18 would not let us go, so that our departure was postponed for seven
19 days. We should have left seven days earlier than we did.
20 Q. Did the Serbian authorities place conditions on the departure of
21 prisoners from Trnopolje camp?
22 A. Yes, from conversations with representatives of the International Red
23 Cross, they laid certain terms, namely, each one of us had to sign a
24 statement in writing specifying that each one of us was leaving the
25 territory of the Republika Srspka of his own free will, that he would
1 never return with arms to that territory, or do anything against that
2 state, as they put it, and that we were of our own free will making a
3 present to them of all our movable and immovable property that we had.
4 That was a condition. After that we were issued a paper, a statement,
5 saying that we wanted to leave that territory and emigrate of our own
6 will. Of course, we were forced to sign that.
7 Q. What was the initial reaction of the International Red Cross to the
8 imposition of these conditions?
9 A. In the beginning, the International Red Cross was against our signing
10 that, because that would be under duress. However, the camp
11 administration conditioned on this the coming of the Red Cross. They
12 said they would not allow them to come there or let us go out. In
13 the end, they had to agree to us signing that. It was not easy to
14 persuade people to sign that because nobody will give up his land of
15 his own volition. That is something that he has been acquiring
16 throughout his life.
17 Q. Did the International Red Cross persuade people to do so by
18 indicating the legitimacy or illegitimacy they thought these documents
20 A. Yes, they told us that we should sign that, nevertheless, because in
21 this manner we would save our lives even though, legally speaking,
22 that signature on that document had no legal validity, and that under
23 the circumstances because it has been extorted because it was done
24 under duress, and so people at long last agreed to sign those
1 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, may I have this document and its English
2 translation marked as Exhibit 297 for identification, please? Sir, do
3 you recognise this document or this Exhibit as being the document
4 which you received from Serbian authorities after signing the
5 relinquishment of property?
6 A. Yes, this is the document which I signed, like all my friends, on the
7 day when we were leaving Trnopolje. Those who did not have such a
8 document could not enter the bus, and this is the document we received
9 two days before the departure.
10 Q. Just to make it clear, this is not the relinquishment document but
11 the document which you received after executing the relinquishment
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. I would tender that for admission, your Honour, and ask that the
15 English translation be placed briefly on the Elmo?
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?
17 MR. KAY: No.
18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 297 will be admitted.
19 MR. TIEGER: Sir, without this document given by Serbian authorities, one
20 could not be released from the camp, and one could not obtain this
21 document without first agreeing that one was leaving the territory
22 voluntarily and relinquishing all property voluntarily?
23 A. Yes, quite so.
24 Q. Sir, approximately two weeks before the convoy left, did a large
25 number of people from outside the camp, Muslims from outside the camp,
1 suddenly show up?
2 A. Yes, when it was learnt that we would be evacuated from Trnopolje,
3 small trucks or vans began to arrive bringing individual families,
4 complete families, from Prijedor, as a rule. Those were Muslims who
5 had been promised that for about 500 marks, German marks, they would
6 receive the card of the International Red Cross and by that very fact
7 be able to leave that territory in that convoy which was leaving. At
8 the outset, those were individual cases, one or two families, but day
9 after day their number grew. As the day of our departure grew close,
10 there were about 700 such people who were put in surrounding houses.
11 Q. I am sorry, we did not get a clear translation of that. About how
12 many people were there gathered from outside by the time of the
14 A. 700 people altogether.
15 Q. Was the International Red Cross reluctant to register these people?
16 A. Yes, they only had the lists of us, of the inmates, and did not want
17 to register them, their explanation being that in that manner they
18 would be helping towards the ethnic cleansing of Prijedor and the
19 surrounding area. They did not want to take part in that. They said
20 that they had reached an agreement only on the departure of inmates,
21 men, from Trnopolje.
22 Q. What was the reaction of camp officials to the ICRC refusal or
23 reluctance to register these people?
24 A. They resisted it and said, "If you do not register those people too
25 and take them away, not even the inmates will be able to leave the
1 camp". So that there were very many problems between the Red Cross,
2 on the one hand, and the camp administration on the other. It lasted
3 for several days and after that a compromise was found. It was
4 decided to register only 30 men. I do not know who had arrived in the
5 camp, I do not know by which date, as they had also been registered by
6 the Serb Red Cross upon their arrival. So there were about 30 men or
7 so, and the women had to stay behind in the camp, having also been
8 promised that the next convoy from Trnopolje would go within two
9 weeks, within a fortnight.
10 Q. Did those women leave Trnopolje camp within two weeks on another
12 A. No, all those people who had arrived and those who arrived
13 subsequently stayed in the camp, and where, I do not know, but from
14 what I know, from what I learnt later, they stayed there until early
15 December of that same year, '92.
16 Q. Was it just those people or did the numbers of people in the camp
17 continue to grow after the departure of the main convoy?
18 A. Yes, the arrival of people from Prijedor continued to grow, that is,
19 their number continued to grow. They practically took our place in
20 camp facilities. Around mid November, as far as I can remember, there
21 were about 1500 of them. A person from the Red Cross paid us a visit
22 in Karlovac at the time and told me that that was the figure that they
23 had on their records.
24 Q. On Thursday you mentioned that when you were taken first to the
25 hospital in Prijedor and then to the Crisis Staff you were transported
1 on a civilian bus?
2 A. Excuse me. We left by a civilian bus from Trnopolje to the clinic,
3 to the hospital in Prijedor, and by that bus we also proceeded, we
4 turned to the Crisis Staff because the driver refused to take us
6 Q. Just to clarify, that is not a regular line bus but a bus that was
7 used for camp purposes?
8 A. Yes, yes, it was a bus placed at the disposal of the army which
9 brought in guards or representatives of the Serb Red Cross to the
10 Trnopolje camp, and there were no line buses and the driver had a
12 Q. Did it appear that military vehicles or, at least, many military
13 vehicles had been diverted to areas where there were battles rather
14 than in the area of Trnopolje?
15 A. Yes, by the way, they did have a major problem with vehicles, with
16 army vehicles. They appeared very seldom. They had been transferred
17 to fronts, to other fronts, lines, so that many civilian trucks or
18 buses or passenger cars had been engaged for military needs. Of
19 course, the license plates had all been taken off or glued over, just
20 a plaster or something, so that one could not read them. We knew it
21 from conversations with those Serb guards that everything had gone to
22 the front line, as they put it.
23 Q. Were prisoners who were taken from the camp and killed or who
24 disappeared sometimes transported in civilian vehicles?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Would that be in both private cars and in trucks?
2 A. Yes, various means of transportation were used, depending on the
3 number of people who were being taken away or the person coming in
4 and asking for those inmates. Of course, if a larger group was being
5 requested, then a larger vehicle would come. If smaller groups or
6 individuals, then passenger cars would come. It also depended on
7 people taking them out or asking them out. Those high ranking
8 policemen came in luxury Mercedes cars, for instance, and so on and so
10 Q. Do you recall a day when six prisoners were taken from the camp in a
11 civilian truck?
12 A. Unfortunately, I do remember the incident, but the date or, rather,
13 the time I could not fix more closely because, under the
14 circumstances, the time had lost its import to us. We were trying to
15 help people. We were endeavouring to provide medical care for them
16 and we could not have cared less if it was Friday or Saturday or a
17 Sunday. The time had stopped for us in a way. I remember -- I cannot
18 remember the day when it happened.
19 Q. To your knowledge, were those prisoners ever heard of or seen again?
20 A. No, those people were taken away in that small truck, and their fate
21 or the fate of many others who were taken from the camp on subsequent
22 occasions, we know nothing.
23 Q. Before the prisoners were taken from camp, had you seen that truck
24 when it arrived in camp?
25 A. Yes, I was in the surgery and I heard a sound. I looked through the
1 window as I was by the window and I saw the truck arrive and park next
2 to the road, partly next to the road, by the fence of those grounds in
3 front of the surgery, around the surgery.
4 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, at this time if I could, perhaps, refer back to
5 the previous Exhibit, not the immediately previous Exhibit, but
6 Exhibit 296, the video, and that might help us identify the locations
7 the witness is speaking about. If we could begin running Exhibit 296?
8 I will ask our technicians to stop. Can we stop here for a moment?
9 Sir, what is this building? I know you identified it previously.
10 A. Yes, this is the building which, in the front here, in the front of
11 the picture, before the war it housed a coffee bar and during the war
12 it was the headquarters of the Serb Red Cross and also the offices
13 where the camp Commander, Major Kuruzovic, and Slavko Puhalic, his
14 deputy head. In the back is the cinema where women with children were
16 Q. Was the Serbian Red Cross housed in this building during the entire
17 operation of the camp?
18 A. No, at a certain point it was here from the beginning of the camp
19 until one day, I do not know the date, but it was moved to another
20 office which was on the other side of the road, across this building.
21 Before the war, it was also a restaurant, a pub.
22 Q. Sir, I am going to ask that the tape be played forwards and if you
23 can tell us to stop if you see the area where the truck parked when it
24 arrived? Can we move forward now?
25 A. Stop.
1 Q. Stop, please. I know you will be unable to point, but perhaps you
2 can describe, using the land marks on the video, where the truck
4 A. The truck was parked on the road more or less in parallel with that
5 group of people that we can see on that picture there, next to the
6 fence. Then come some shrubs, and this small truck was parked on the
7 road. A group of people that we see beyond that lamp post, here.
8 Q. OK. From what direction had the truck come?
9 A. The truck arrived from the direction of Kozarac. Therefore, from the
10 direction of the road that one can see in the background of this
11 still, the direction of the mountain.
12 Q. So the truck would have been, as we are looking at the video now,
13 coming toward us and then parked on the side of the street closest
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. --- to the building?
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Excuse me, Mr. Tieger. If I understand the
18 witness's testimony last Thursday, is this where the medical centre,
19 for lack of a better word, was located?
20 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour. Can you tell us, sir, what the building we
21 see in this picture is, the building by which these people are
23 A. The building that we see here served as a shop before the war, as a
24 food store, and behind it to the left was where our surgery was.
25 Q. So the wall that we see moving toward the left side of the building
1 is the area where the medical centre or ambulanta was?
2 A. Yes, that is right, and here between these two trees we see its
3 window, we see our medical centre's window.
4 Q. What kind of a truck was this?
5 A. It was a small TAM truck. We called them TAM-ic, a small TAM. It
6 had a canvas. So there was a cabin and the canvas in the back.
7 Q. A sort of a canvas canopy over the back?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. After it parked did you see anyone get out?
10 A. Yes, I saw the driver who got off on the left. It was a uniformed
11 soldier, but I could not see his face -- I could not identify him --
12 and he got off towards the road. I do not know where he headed.
13 Q. After a few minutes did you see someone in that area whom you
15 A. Yes, I was standing by the window and continued to talk to my
16 colleagues who were there, and then I cast another look on to the road
17 and saw a group of soldiers standing by this main point on the road.
18 It was a group of soldiers, uniformed men, separated from the group,
19 and started towards the yard in front of the surgery, in front of the
20 medical centre. After he had made a few steps, I recognised Dusan
22 Q. The group of soldiers that you saw, can we see the approximate
23 position where they were on the video as it is now on the screen?
24 A. They were on the road to the right of the screen where this darkish
25 part is, this, how shall I put it, the lower third slightly beyond the
1 middle of the screen, if I can orient it like that.
2 Q. Then one of the uniformed men separated from the group and began to
3 walk in the direction of the ambulanta?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. After he left the group and as he approached the ambulanta, you
6 realised it was Dule Tadic?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Where did he go after he left the group?
9 A. He started towards the entrance, through the gate towards the yard in
10 front of our medical centre, and then continued towards the building
11 housing the Serb Red Cross.
12 Q. Can we roll the tape backwards just a little bit, please?
13 JUDGE STEPHEN: Before you do that ---
14 MR. TIEGER: I am sorry, can we stop? Excuse me.
15 JUDGE STEPHEN: I did not follow the ----
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, your Honour.
17 JUDGE STEPHEN: My microphone light will not come on. Is the microphone
18 working now? No, none of them are.
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: There is a green blinking light by Judge Vohrah's
20 and perhaps by yours as well -- if that will help for us to determine
21 what may be the cause.
22 JUDGE STEPHEN: I did not follow the reference to the dark patch on the
23 road. I saw a dark patch on the road, but it is very long and I do
24 not know where he is describing the group of soldiers.
25 MR. TIEGER: Can we role the tape forward slightly to the position it was
1 previously? Can we keep going a bit? OK. Sir, I know it is
2 difficult to describe this in words rather than simply pointing, but
3 if I can ask you to make another attempt at indicating to us where
4 that checkpoint was and where the group of soldiers were?
5 A. If we watch the bottom half of the right portion of the screen, you
6 can see the road separating to the right. That is the entrance to the
7 house that was there. About three or four metres below this entrance
8 was where the soldiers were. I think you can see a dark spot and,
9 like, a pot hole damaged roadway. This is where they were,
10 approximately. That means in the part where the white portion of the
11 asphalt is going to the right.
12 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, would this be an appropriate time?
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, is your microphone not working as well?
14 MR. KAY: It is now, but it has not been all morning.
15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess then for 20 minutes,
17 (11.30 a.m.)
18 (Short Adjournment)
19 (11.50 a.m.)
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I believe there was a delay occasioned by the need
21 to set up some technical equipment. Mr. Tieger?
22 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour, thank you. I apologise for the delay. I
23 recognised prior to today that the description that the witness is now
24 involved in would be facilitated by a series of still photographs to
25 which he could point on the Elmo. We have temporarily -- I trust only
1 temporarily -- lost the capacity to do that. I earlier enquired of
2 the technical people here in court whether that was possible and was
3 told it was not.
4 During the break we believed there was the opportunity to
5 extract some quick stills. That attempt was made but was
6 unsuccessful. So we will try to struggle along as we have been doing
7 through words rather than still shots to which we can point.
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you have additional copies of the photos or, at
9 least, one for the Bench that we could use and one for the Defence?
10 MR. TIEGER: No. I was unable to even to attempt to make such stills
11 prior to the break.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: From the video?
13 MR. TIEGER: That is right. The frames which we attempted to extract
14 during the break, the quality simply was not high enough so that I
15 think it will be of any meaningful use.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will follow the witness's best attempt -- are you
17 ready to proceed?
18 MR. TIEGER: Yes, indeed.
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Thank you.
20 MR. TIEGER: If we could before we begin return to the portion of the
21 video which was on screen just before we adjourned, just before we
22 recessed. Thank you. [To the witness]: Once again, sir, where was
23 it that you saw Dule Tadic go after he left the group and walked in
24 the direction of the clinic?
25 A. Mr. Tadic separated from the group and walked towards the entrance to
1 the yard which is across from the clinic, that is, towards the trees
2 that you can -- that can be seen here.
3 Q. Then where did he go?
4 A. He went into the building in which the Serbian Red Cross was located.
5 Q. Can we roll the video backwards a bit? Stop there, please? In this
6 portion of the video, sir, can we see both the building into which Mr.
7 Tadic went and also see a portion of the ambulanta and one of the
8 windows of the ambulanta?
9 A. Yes, on the left we see the large white building, that is, the
10 building where the Red Cross was housed. In the right, on the right
11 side of the screen, we see the building with windows and the window we
12 see is the window of the ambulanta.
13 Q. After Mr. Tadic entered the building to the left where the Serbian
14 Red Cross premises were, did you remain in the same room from which
15 you had seen him go into the building?
16 A. No, I was called by a patient who entered the room that we used for
17 check-ups and I went to that room to see him.
18 Q. Was there also a window in that room?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Is that, essentially, adjacent to the window we see in the photograph
21 and in roughly the same part of the building?
22 A. Yes. Those were the rooms next to one another.
23 Q. Did you see Mr. Tadic come out of the building?
24 A. Yes, when I walked into that room I saw through this other window as
25 Mr. Tadic -- as Mr. Tadic was walking out of the building of the Red
1 Cross and returning to the group of soldiers which was still standing
2 on the road.
3 Q. About how long was that after he had entered the building?
4 A. Very short, a very short time, a minute or two.
5 Q. Did you continue to watch?
6 A. Yes, I was still watching him when he came back to the group of
7 people and he was talking to them.
8 Q. How long did he remain with that group of soldiers or persons in
10 A. Also very short, a minute at the most.
11 Q. Where did he go then?
12 A. After that he again went back to the premises of the Red Cross the
13 same way.
14 Q. Did you see him come out of the premises of the Red Cross?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. About how long after he entered this time was it that he came out?
17 A. He also stayed there a very -- for a very short time. He came out
18 also one to two minutes, very quick, it was all very quick, but this
19 time he walked out together with the Deputy Commander, Slavko Puhalic.
20 Q. In which direction did they start to go?
21 A. They walked out of this building and, after about three or four
22 metres in front of this staircase that we see, they stopped.
23 Q. What were they doing?
24 A. Mr. Tadic gave a piece of paper to Slavko who then read it, looked at
25 it, that piece of paper.
1 Q. About how far away from your position at the window were they at this
3 A. They were some 12, 13 metres away from me.
4 Q. Were they positioned roughly to the right of the window, to the left
5 of the window, or just straight ahead of the window as you were
7 A. They were approximately in the direction of where I was looking, by
8 the window.
9 Q. What was happening as they talked?
10 A. Mr. Tadic was pointing his finger on the paper that Slavko was
11 holding in his hand. He was asking him something -- I do not know
12 exactly, I could not hear it clearly -- Slavko was responding, but the
13 topic of their conversation was that paper, that list. The
14 conversation was short in terms of questions and answers.
15 Q. From where you were watching, could you make out the words on the
17 A. Of course I could not see what was written on that paper. I could not
18 see what was written, the words, but in that moment I saw that the
19 right side was blank, was unwritten, and the left side was written
20 out, like a column.
21 Q. Had you seen papers written in that fashion before?
22 A. Yes, before I saw them.
23 Q. When had you seen papers written with a column down one side?
24 A. On one occasion Slavko Puhalic came to us in the clinic, in the room
25 where we, sort of, used as a rest, to rest. At one point he produced
1 a piece of paper out of his pocket and I was next to him at that
2 time. He said, "I am interested in something, do you know these
3 people?" He started reading names of people from Kozarac that we
4 knew. He asked us where they were now, whether we knew where they
5 were and whether we knew anything about them. I saw clearly the names
6 of -- some names of those people.
7 Q. Those were names of Muslims?
8 A. Yes, those were names of Muslims.
9 Q. Were any of those persons located or found by Deputy Commander
11 A. We said that we did not know anybody, that we did not know where they
12 were at that moment, we just did not know. He said that, he asked us
13 to try to remember whether we knew anything about them and we said we
14 did not. After that he again took his paper and kept it in his hand
15 and folded it.
16 Q. Do you know whether or not any of those persons he was looking for
17 were eventually located?
18 A. When he left us he went to the perimeter of the camp and there they
19 had some kind of roll calls. That happened often in the camp. When
20 they were looking for somebody, they asked that all the inmates would
21 gather in the yard in front of the school and line up in columns.
22 Then they had to come to the part where the Serb policemen or soldiers
23 were checking their identity. Everybody had to show their licna karta
24 or some personal ID. If their name was on the list that they had,
25 they would be separated from the rest. On that day they found two
1 from that list.
2 Q. What happened to those two who were found?
3 A. They brought them to the premises of that commune centre near the
4 ambulanta and there they interrogated and beat them. After that
5 beating they brought them past our windows and locked them up in the
6 lab which they used as a prison.
7 Q. Did those prisoners remain there or did they eventually disappear?
8 A. In the afternoon of that day, those two were taken in a private
9 vehicle and they disappeared. We never heard from them again.
10 Q. Getting back to the occasion you were describing for us, did Dule
11 Tadic and Slavko Puhalic remain in that courtyard area discussing that
12 piece of paper and pointing to that piece of paper for a period of
14 A. Yes, Slavko held that paper and read from it. They talked briefly,
15 and at one moment Slavko said something, I do not know what, but then
16 Dule -- something upset Mr. Tadic. He was excited. He was nervous.
17 He started moving around him. They kept talking with their voices a
18 bit raised, and that went on for about five minutes. Then both of
19 them again went towards the entrance, to the gate, to the group of
20 soldiers that were still standing in the street, on the road.
21 Q. As Dule Tadic and Slavko Puhalic went to that group in the road, did
22 you see any other persons approaching the group whom you recognised?
23 A. When they started from that spot where they had stopped, I was
24 watching them and that moment I saw on the road below the group of
25 soldiers that was, there two persons that I recognised.
1 Q. Who were they?
2 A. That was Miso Radulovic and then next to him was a soldier from the
3 guard and on the right-hand side was Goran Borovnica.
4 Q. How were Miso Radulovic and Goran Borovnica dressed?
5 A. Miso Radulovic and Goran Borovnica were dressed in olive green
6 uniforms of the JNA.
7 Q. Did you know Miso Radulovic and Goran Borovnica before the war?
8 A. Yes, I knew them both.
9 Q. How did you know Miso Radulovic?
10 A. Miso Radulovic was a teacher in the primary school, Rade Kondic, in
11 Kozarac to which I went for eight years. I often saw him in the
12 school, in the school building.
13 Q. How did you know Goran Borovnica?
14 A. Borovnica is a year younger than I am and he went to the same class
15 with a relative of mine. I knew him from the playground, from the
16 soccer field, and later Goran worked in a restaurant, Crvene Ruze, as
17 a waiter that I patronised often at that time and in a cafe owned by
18 Mr. Tadic.
19 Q. Did Borovnica have anything unusual or distinctive about his
21 A. Yes, Borovnica had a handicap. Actually, his strabism he had -- his
22 eyes were cross-eyed. That was very characteristic of him. It is
23 something that is very conspicuous.
24 Q. I do not mean to get technical. Was it the kind of condition where
25 both eyes were focused inward or one eye would focus in one direction
1 and the other eye would focus inward?
2 A. Yes, that is exactly it.
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Which one?
4 MR. TIEGER: Which one? The latter? The second? One eye would focus in
5 one direction and one eye would focus inward, is that it?
6 A. One eye practically -- there are two types of this condition. One is
7 fixating on an object, but the other one is not following that but is
8 going in another direction. So one is looking straight and one is
9 looking inward, that is one of the possibilities, and that is
11 Q. I asked what you Goran Borovnica and Miso Radulovic were wearing. Do
12 you recall what Dule Tadic was wearing on that date?
13 A. Dusan Tadic wore a camouflage uniform that was worn by some other
14 Serbian soldiers. It is a camouflage military uniform.
15 Q. Did Goran Borovnica and Miso Radulovic also go to the group of
16 soldiers at the checkpoint?
17 A. Yes, they were moving in the direction of this group. Then they
18 joined it very soon. They were joined by Tadic and Slavko and then
19 they continued to talk.
20 Q. After that what happened?
21 A. By being, by observing so long, I had been away from the patient for
22 quite a while, so then I turned back to him and continued the
23 treatment practically.
24 MR. TIEGER: At this time can we take the second video clip which is very
25 short which may help us in lieu of photographs? I would like that
1 tendered as 298 for identification, not tendered but at least marked.
2 Can we stop, please? Can we move that back slightly? Thank you.
3 Sir, is this another shot of the building which Dule Tadic entered and
4 from which deputy Commander Puhalic and Mr. Tadic emerged?
5 A. Yes, that is the building.
6 Q. Does it show the general area where they were standing and talking
7 about the paper?
8 A. Yes, the place where they were standing is in front of the building,
9 some three or four metres away from those stairs. On the screen, we
10 see that in the direction of this middle arch. On the pavement there
11 is a white stone, and that is where they were at that moment.
12 Q. Can we roll it forward, please?
13 A. Yes, here.
14 Q. If we can continue forward? Stop. Does this show the wall of the
15 ambulanta which was partially obscured in the portions of the video we
16 saw before?
17 A. Yes, quite right.
18 Q. Does it show the windows from which you were able to observe what was
20 A. Yes, on the window which is to the right of the screen and that is
21 the window through which I looked the first time when I recognised Mr.
22 Tadic, and to the left, and that is the other window which is to the
23 left, is the window which was in this examination room that we had and
24 through which I watched Dusko Tadic and Puhalic discussing the list
25 which Slavko held in his hands.
1 JUDGE STEPHEN: Could I ask a question?
2 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour.
3 JUDGE STEPHEN: The window to the right that we are looking at that there,
4 do you say that that is the same window as we could see through the
5 trees in the earlier photograph which also showed the road?
6 THE WITNESS: No, on that film we saw the third window which is even
7 further to the right, as compared with this window. There is yet
8 another window which is to the right of this one shown here.
9 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would tender 298 for admission.
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?
11 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 298 will be admitted.
13 MR. TIEGER: Sir, do you see Dule Tadic in court today?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you point him out and tell us what he is wearing, please?
16 A. Mr. Tadic is sitting in the back of the room. He has a jacket, a
17 suit with a light blue shirt and a tie.
18 MR. TIEGER: May the record reflect the identification of the accused,
19 your Honour?
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, the record will reflect that the witness
21 identified the accused.
22 MR. TIEGER: I have nothing further. Thank you.
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Cross-examination, Mr. Kay?
24 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour. Before I start cross-examination, might the
25 technical booth provide us with Exhibit 296 on the video monitor, that
1 portion of the road that we have been observing?
2 Cross-Examined by MR. KAY.
3 Q. Thank you, if we could just hold it on there? Mr. Gutic, the first
4 matter I want to ask you about is this. You are unable to help us
5 with any date that you say that you saw Mr. Tadic here at Trnopolje,
6 is that right?
7 A. Yes, unfortunately. Should I explain?
8 Q. You gave a reason earlier when you were giving evidence for the
9 Prosecution. Is there anything extra that you need to tell us about
10 that that is different from what you have told us before? Can you
11 tell us when you left Trnopolje? How long did you stay there for?
12 A. In Trnopolje I spent, I was from 26th May '92 to 1st October '92, I
13 spent at Trnopolje camp all the time.
14 Q. You have told us about people coming to the camp and sometimes
15 people leaving. It was also the case that certain families left the
16 camp to go and live elsewhere in the region. Families were able to
17 move from there, for instance, and go and live in Prijedor. Were you
18 aware of that?
19 A. There was a possibility during the early days when the camp was
20 formed. The camp grounds were overcrowded, so that at some point the
21 camp administration allowed, I think it was, two buses with women and
22 children to leave the camp, under the condition, though, that they had
23 some relatives or friends who could look after them, but that was an
24 exception. In other words, those were people under that condition and
25 a very limited number.
1 Q. Presumably, there was some kind of documentation that had to be
2 prepared to enable people to live elsewhere other than the camp, is
3 that right?
4 A. I did not quite understand the question.
5 Q. Were you aware, for instance, if any documents had to be prepared to
6 enable these people to live elsewhere, for instance in Prijedor,
7 rather than remain in the camp itself?
8 A. One needed a certificate of the Serb Red Cross. Only those who had
9 that certificate could leave the camp and go to Prijedor.
10 Q. Some families were taken from the camp to live in the villages around
11 Trnopolje, is that right?
12 A. Yes, women with small children were allowed to leave the camp grounds
13 and be accommodated in houses which were adjoining the camp.
14 Q. Yes, the camp itself, as you have described it, also included houses
15 in the surrounding area of Trnopolje where a number of families were
16 billeted, so it was not just the confines of that area around the
17 school and the cinema. A number of the surrounding houses also
18 contained families who were under the control of Trnopolje camp?
19 A. Yes, a couple of houses adjacent to the camp, adjoining the fence of
20 the camp, were also used to accommodate where our inmates lived, but
21 there were also houses on the other side of the road and which were
22 used by Serb soldiers for their own needs and they picked out those
23 that suited them.
24 Q. Were you familiar with the documents that were used to enable people
25 to be discharged from the camp and live elsewhere? Did you see those
1 documents yourself?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Were they officially prepared documents, typed, printed?
4 A. They were typed. It was a small piece of paper typed on a
5 typewriter, and the space for their name was left empty, and there the
6 name of the person who had the possibility of leaving was entered at
7 that moment. But that was immediately after the camp was set up. It
8 was during that period of time, that is, the first 15 days. That is
9 when those certificates were issued. They were signed by Major
10 Kuruzovic or Pero Curguz, as the head of the Serb Red Cross, and they
11 brought a seal of the municipality of Prijedor, the old seal.
12 Q. Do you know if those documents were prepared and produced in the camp
13 offices at Trnopolje?
14 A. As far as I can remember, it said "potvrda", certificate, but it
15 could also be used in other institutions before the war. It did not
16 have any specific purpose, these documents, these certificates. For
17 instance, those girls who worked in the Red Cross had them.
18 Q. They were documents that were actually prepared in, perhaps,
19 Kuruzovic's office or the office of the Deputy Commander?
20 A. They were written in the office of the Serb Red Cross and that person
21 had to take it to Major Kuruzovic for signature or later on to Pero
22 Curguz, as I have just said.
23 Q. When any of the detainees at the camp was required to go elsewhere,
24 perhaps to look for food and had a release from the camp, would that
25 detainee be provided with some sort of document?
1 A. These documents were issued only to women and children and, as for
2 the inmates, those who went in search of food, they were not issued
3 any certificates. They simply had to leave their personal documents
4 at the checkpoint. Later on, when people from Omarska and Keraterm
5 arrived, it was made possible for a small -- for a specified number
6 that on the basis of a very bad state of health but that also had to
7 be documented, they also had the possibility of leaving the camp and
8 going to Prijedor, provided they were from Prijedor and had a house,
9 some accommodation, a dwelling, in Prijedor. Presumably, there were
10 some other conditions but I do not know about them. I know only what
11 I heard from those people.
12 Q. Were there any certificates at all for a temporary discharge from the
13 camp to show that the person could leave Trnopolje and, perhaps, go to
14 his home village and there look for food or return with food to the
16 A. I said that our inmates -- that to obtain food our inmates did not
17 need those certificates. They were not issued to them. Personally, I
18 did get a certificate, a piece of paper, I have to tell you, from Mr.
19 Kuruzovic so that I could go to a nearby village and try to find milk
20 for infants and possibly some food. That was on one occasion. I said
21 that was an exception.
22 Q. But other people may have been able to use certificates in such way
23 for themselves? You say yours was an exception, but others may have
24 also had such certificates to enable them to move elsewhere on a
25 temporary basis?
1 A. I would not know.
2 Q. Thank you. Turning to this occasion now when you have described the
3 lorry or truck arriving at the camp and parking on the side of the
4 road. If we could just have that picture again from Exhibit 296 on
5 our screen? Thank you. Just to indicate to us because we have had
6 nothing able to be marked, in relation to that telegraph pole quite
7 near the building -- can you see that -- where in relation to that
8 did the truck park?
9 A. The truck was parked behind it, that is, towards that group of people
10 we see here in the central part of the still and parallel with them on
11 the road.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 A. They are next to the fence itself and the truck was on the road.
14 Q. You saw one man get out of the truck?
15 A. I saw only the driver get off.
16 Q. Do you know where he went?
17 A. He got off the truck and I did not see him again. He went somewhere,
18 I do not know where he went, but he did not join that group of
19 soldiers standing there on the road.
20 Q. You did not see any soldiers getting out of the back of the truck?
21 A. The rear part, I could see the truck up to the edge, but then I could
22 not see the end of it because there was the corner of the building
23 which hid it from my view. So I do not know whether anybody got off.
24 Q. It seems then that the group of soldiers you indicated, you suddenly
25 noticed? You do not know where they came from?
1 A. That place where those soldiers were standing was otherwise the chief
2 point of the camp where the guard Commander -- excuse me, the shift
3 Commander of those guards who were then on duty and four or five
4 soldiers standing sentry at that point. So that was the chief place
5 where those who would come to the camp grounds had to apply. So, that
6 was the point which was permanent, which was there.
7 Q. So the position that you indicated the soldiers were in, was a
8 checkpoint or guard point for the camp, is that right?
9 A. The entrance.
10 Q. That point was on the road, you indicated to us, is that right?
11 A. Yes, it was -- there is a building, a former private restaurant was
12 there with a roof and with a marquee and the soldiers were spending
13 time next to the -- in the shadow, in the shade, of that restaurant or
14 around that part. They moved. They moved about.
15 Q. So if we had looked to the right of that photograph not shown on our
16 screen, there was a building that the guards used as their
17 headquarters or base for the camp, is that right?
18 A. Yes, there is an overhanging roof there and the private house which
19 housed a former restaurant before the war. Right next to the road
20 there is a small fence and then the entrance into that building.
21 Q. Did those guards control the access of people into the camp and the
22 people leaving the camp from that position in the road that you
24 A. If a vehicle arrived from the direction of Kozarac, it would be
25 halted at that northern most point and would be controlled there.
1 Then it would be sent to this central point where the shift Commander
2 was and in those rooms next to it, that is, in that house Major
3 Kuruzovic subsequently moved in. That is where the Red Cross offices
4 were. So, if a truck or any other vehicle came from the direction of
5 Prijedor, it would also be halted on the road and then it would
6 proceed to that particular point so that was the central point.
7 Q. Your evidence was that after this truck arrived, a few minutes later
8 you recognised a soldier amongst that group whom you say was Dusko
10 A. As I have said, when the truck parked, when it stopped, I turned
11 towards the interior of the room in which I was and I was talking to
12 an individual and then later on, a couple of minutes later, I again
13 turned towards the road, that is, I looked outside and I saw that
14 group of soldiers which was now larger. At that moment, immediately
15 after that, one of them turned and started for the entrance into the
16 yard in front of the surgery and I recognised him then as Mr. Tadic.
17 Q. So the answer to my question was yes?
18 A. As I have said, the soldier who split from the group moved towards
19 the surgery, I recognised him and that was Dusko Tadic.
20 Q. I would like you to look at this photograph which I tender as Exhibit
21 -- no, it will be Defence Exhibit 28, I believe, your Honour. If you
22 could look at it, Mr. Gutic, and then put it on the monitor for us?
23 Can you show it to Mr. Tieger? That is a photograph there, Mr. Gutic,
24 of the front of the building that housed the Serbian Red Cross, and
25 the camp Commander's officers as well as the cinema that was behind,
1 is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. On the right-hand side you can see part of the front of the shop
4 building that was at the front of the ambulanta where you were
5 positioned during your observation of this road, is that right?
6 A. Yes, but you cannot see ambulanta from here.
7 Q. No, but we can see the general area. If you could put that on the
8 monitor for us, Mr. Bos, and we can switch on our computer monitors?
9 Thank you. What I am interested in, Mr. Gutic, is how you claim from
10 that position in the ambulanta to be able to see a list of names
11 across that yard being held by Mr. Tadic or the Deputy Commander in
12 front of the Red Cross building. What distance are we talking about
13 from your place inside the ambulanta to that area where the white
14 stone was that you indicated in front of the arch to the building?
15 How many metres would you say?
16 A. I said, and that is how it was, the distance from the window by which
17 I stood to the place where Tadic was standing was about 12 or 13
18 metres. Of course, I never measured it, but that is roughly.
19 Q. They were placed facing you or sideways to you when you were looking
20 from your window or did they have their backs to you? How were they
22 A. At the moment when they were standing, Slavko Puhalic had his left
23 profile to me and Mr. Tadic was to his right, and when they stopped,
24 when they stopped, Tadic turned his face towards me.
25 Q. Who was holding the document that you say was a list?
1 A. When they came out of the Red Cross office and came down those
2 stairs, Mr. Tadic then handed over that list to Slavko, turned or made
3 another step and then they stopped. Slavko was holding the list in
4 his hands at that moment.
5 Q. So were you looking at the piece of paper sideways on?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You say from that position you were able to observe that there was a
8 list of names, do you?
9 A. I said that the right side of that sheet was white, and one could see
10 it clearly. There was a difference between the written part which was
11 to the left, from top to the bottom, and the right-hand side which was
12 white which had not been used. I had seen such a list before at Mr.
13 Slavko's, filled in in the same manner.
14 Q. You were unable to read any of the writing on this document?
15 A. No, no, I could not do that.
16 Q. This document was not being shown at that distance to you for you to
17 read and have a good look at what was on it?
18 A. I do not know. I cannot affirm what they said, what was written on
19 there, but I did not say that. All I said was the left-hand side was
20 filled and the right-hand side was clean, and that one could see
21 clearly because they were standing still and one could see it in their
23 Q. What I suggest to you, Mr. Gutic, is that this simply is not true,
24 that you did not see any list of names and you did not see Dusko Tadic
25 discussing a document that was a list with the Deputy Camp Commander
1 in front of that building?
2 A. I still insist that Mr. Dusan Tadic and Mr. Slavko Puhalic were seen
3 by myself in the situation I have described before.
4 MR. KAY: I have no further questions.
5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger any redirect?
6 Re-Examined by MR. TIEGER.
7 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour.
8 Sir, any certificates that were, for example the certificate
9 that you were asked about by Mr. Kay that allowed you to get out and
10 look for milk, was that a document which just had a column down one
11 side and the rest of the paper blank?
12 A. No, the whole surface of that paper was filled. The central part of
13 that certificate was written out.
14 Q. Other than the list which you saw in the possession of Slavko Puhalic
15 which contained the names of Muslims who were to be called out of the
16 camp, did you ever see any document in camp which just had a column
17 written down one side and the rest of the paper blank?
18 A. Yes, from time to time I went to the Red Cross office and there we
19 collected bread or had contact with them, and I was present when men
20 also applied for entry in a big, in a very thick notebook, because the
21 camp administration had ordered that all men had to register so that
22 they could be entered there, so that the record could be made. In
23 that notebook they had lists with the first name and the surname of
24 every individual who reported there. I think the father's name was
25 entered as well, I believe, and the year of birth. Besides I saw
1 similar lists when police came from Prijedor to the camp in a police
2 van and they would hand over such a list to Slavko and Slavko would
3 then take usually one or two soldiers, enter the camp and then look
4 for people from that paper, from that sheet of paper, from that list,
5 and men were taken away on the basis of such lists. I also remember an
6 instance when one of the Balaban twins, who were Mr. Kuruzovic's body
7 guards, came to ambulanta, it was towards the end of our stay there,
8 and also brought a list of inmates and asked us, that is me and my
9 colleague, to talk to people and talk them into signing those
10 documents on emigration that we already talked about. So it was on
11 various occasions that I saw such lists directly with my own eyes.
12 Q. You indicated that the Serbian Red Cross was located in the building
13 which housed the cinema, and also was later located across the street
14 in the, in another building you referred to. Did the premises of the
15 Serbian Red Cross move across the street before October 1st?
16 A. The Red Cross office was moved before 1st October. I would not know
17 the date exactly, but no doubt before 4th August because a group of
18 women was put there. Those who had been transferred from Omarska to
19 Trnopolje, that is where they were put. Then in the course of August
20 when they were taken away, when they left, inmates, that is male
21 inmates, were put there.
22 Q. On the occasion when you saw Mr. Tadic and Deputy Commander Puhalic,
23 were the premises of the Serbian Red Cross located in the cinema
24 building, still located in the cinema building?
25 A. I have said I cannot remember clearly the date, but as Slavko was
1 inside this was the time when the Red Cross was still in that room.
2 MR. TIEGER: Thank you. Nothing further.
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
4 MR. KAY: Just one matter arising, your Honour.
5 Q. Mr. Gutic, did Slavko Puhalic have an office in that building?
6 A. As I have said, Slavko Puhalic and the major were spending a large
7 part of their time in those offices while in the camp, but Slavko
8 Puhalic also had an office which was in another building beyond this
9 large building, the former office of the local commune. There were
10 some small offices and that is where Slavko also took inmates for
11 interrogation when they interrogated, when he interrogated them and
12 where some were beaten.
13 MR. KAY: That is all I ask. Your Honour, I tender D28 as an Exhibit. I
14 would like to make it an Exhibit.
15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?
16 MR. TIEGER: No, your Honour.
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Defence Exhibit 28 will be admitted. Mr. Tieger any
18 redirect, re-redirect?
19 MR. TIEGER: No, your Honour.
20 Examined by the Court.
21 JUDGE STEPHEN: Witness, casting your mind back to the surgery where you
22 were and from which you observed these things, am I right in
23 understanding your evidence to the effect that there was a wall and
24 along that wall there were three windows, or was there one window
25 which we saw in the photograph of the road and then the wall went
1 round the corner and there were two other windows?
2 A. No, that was our surgery with one wall with three windows at a
3 certain distance one from the another, and the road went at an angle
4 of 90 degrees as against that wall.
5 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you. That clarifies exactly what I had in mind.
6 JUDGE VOHRAH: Mr. Gutic, for the record may I know if you are qualified
7 as a doctor now?
8 A. Much to my regret I had three examinations left when the war broke
9 out, so that my studies were discontinued. All these developments and
10 the state that I am in and the new language that I have to learn, have
11 prevented me from completing my studies. Moreover, my financial
12 circumstances are very bad indeed as we have no possibility of
13 obtaining some scholarship or any other kind of financial support. So
14 I am waiting.
15 JUDGE VOHRAH: Thank you.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Gutic, would you estimate for me by looking in
17 this courtroom how far Mr. Tadic was away from you when you saw this
18 list about which you testified, from where you are to either where I
19 am or where the table is or where the Prosecutor's table is? Give me
20 a benchmark so that I can better understand this distance.
21 A. In the far right corner of this courtroom we see a gentleman in
22 uniform and a little bit further away, that is another metre which is
23 slightly over a yard further away, that is roughly the distance.
24 Q. My second question relates to your testimony about the consequences
25 that Muslim women face in a patriarchal society. You testified that
1 Muslim women in a patriarchal society suffer certain consequences when
2 they are raped. Would you explain that further for me?
3 A. I said that Bosnian Muslims, especially in a rural environment, are
4 rather patriarchal, they are brought up very conservatively, their
5 father has the predominant role and the girls are brought up very
6 strictly. Moreover, I do not say this is a rule, that need not be so,
7 but looking at them, girls usually marry at a rather early age, that
8 is around 19, and I have to put it that way. It was [sic] desirable
9 for them to have slept or rather have had contact with another man.
10 Those who did for various other reasons were second-rate persons of a
11 second-rate category. So that rape which happens very, very seldom
12 with us, I know of only one case which is an even worse, an even more
13 terrible incident, such persons girls who were raped, not only
14 because of the psychological trauma that they go through, but because
15 they become outcasts in their environment, their environment discarded
16 them and they would cease to be, if I may say so, attractive for
17 marriage or to become a member of a family. Their family plays an
18 important role, if one might say, the frame of mind of Bosnian
19 Muslims, a family with two or three children, the family has a
20 predominant role. That is I believe an additional factor which is a
21 further strain on those girls, as compared with some girls who were
22 raped outside that area or perhaps in an urban environment and such
23 like. Moreover, they are faced with a mental conflict, that is the
24 manner of their up bringing, very strict education and then all the
25 circumstances of all that happens afterwards.
1 Q. The translation said "desirable". I gather that the witness meant
2 "not desirable". Did you see that, Mr. Tieger?
3 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour. I think it was quite clear in the context.
4 It was a translation problem.
5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Are there additional questions, Mr. Tieger?
6 MR. TIEGER: No, your Honour.
7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
8 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mr. Gutic being
10 permanently excused?
11 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Gutic, you are permanently excused. You are free
13 to leave. Thank you for coming. We will adjourn for one hour and a
15 (1.15 p.m.)
18 (2.45 p.m.) PRIVATE
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger? Cross-examination -- no, we finished
20 with Mr. Gutic real quickly. Would you call your next witness?
21 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, the next witness is Mr. Sefik Kesic.
22 MR. SEFIK KESIC, called.
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you take that oath that has been given to
25 THE WITNESS [In translation]: Yes. I solemnly declare that I will speak
1 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
2 (The witness was sworn)
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you, sir. You may be seated.
4 Examined by MR. TIEGER.
5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger?
6 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour.
7 Q. Sir, what is your name?
8 A. Sefik, Kesic.
9 Q. How old are you, sir?
10 A. 44.
11 Q. Where were you born?
12 A. Kamicani.
13 Q. You are a Bosnian Muslim?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Where were you raised?
16 A. In Kamicani.
17 Q. Where did you go to school?
18 A. First years in Kamicani and four years in Kozarac.
19 Q. At Rade Kondic?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you serve in the JNA?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In what years did you serve?
24 A. '72 to '74.
25 Q. What were your duties in the JNA?
1 A. I was in the engineering units and I was a Corporal.
2 Q. After service in the JNA, did you work in Slovenia and Croatia in
3 construction and did you also attend courses to become a driver and
4 work as a driver?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you still maintain your home in Kamicani?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is that where your home was?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. How often would you come home during the time you worked in Slovenia
11 and Croatia?
12 A. At first, twice or once, once or twice a month, and later when I got
13 a car, I had a car, then more frequently, almost every weekend.
14 Q. In the two years before the war, did you return home to the
15 Kozarac/Kamicani area after your wife died?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you remain in Kamicani and Kozarac until the outbreak of the war?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Was Kozarac the main or primary shopping and cafe area for the people
20 of Kamicani?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Is that where you went for food, supplies, documents and so on?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Were you in Kozarac frequently, in particular, during the two years
25 which preceded the war?
1 A. Almost every week, at least once.
2 Q. Do you know Dule Tadic?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Were you friends or acquaintances with Mr. Tadic?
5 A. No.
6 Q. How long have you known who he was?
7 A. Before the war, going back five, six years, for five or six years.
8 Q. Was it five or six years before the war when you became aware that
9 this particular person was Dule Tadic?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Before that time were you familiar with him simply as a resident of
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. How did you learn who Mr. Tadic was?
15 A. When passing through Kozarac in the street since this was a man, so
16 to speak, better known. He was a trainer of a club that I never
17 visited. He was greeted by the inhabitants, the youth and the
18 children, so that I heard that they greet him with "Hello, Dule",
19 "Hello, Dusko", "Hello, Tadic". The older would greet him, "Hello
20 Tadic", so that I knew that it was this Dusan Tadic.
21 Q. Did you continue to see him in Kozarac after the time you learned
22 what his name was?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Mr. Kesic, I want to direct your attention to the beginning of the
25 conflict, the actual military attack in Kozarac. Were you at home
1 when the attack on Kozarac began?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Who were you with?
4 A. I was there with my children and my parents.
5 Q. What were your children's ages?
6 A. I had a small daughter of four. I had two male children. One was
7 born in '78 and the other was born in '80.
8 Q. After the attack began, did you and your family flee to the forest
9 for shelter along with many others from your village?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you think at that time that you would be leaving your homes for a
12 long period of time or for good?
13 A. No.
14 Q. What did you imagine at that point would happen?
15 A. I thought, like everybody else, that it was going to be several days
16 of shooting and that we would all come back to our homes.
17 Q. From the area of the forest, were you able to see what was happening
18 to your village and to your homes?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What was happening? What could you see?
21 A. We saw that the military and tanks, a couple of tanks, let us say two
22 tanks there were, they started at the edge of the village from Forici
23 to set houses on fire, to destroy houses and such.
24 Q. Mr. Kesic, how many nights did you and your family spend in the
1 A. Three nights.
2 Q. On the fourth day of the attack, did you and your family move from
3 the forest and go to Kozarac for the purpose of surrendering?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. About how large was the group that you went with?
6 A. In the beginning, it was a group of about 300 persons, but coming
7 towards Kozarac it was growing as the people from other shelters were
8 joining in this column.
9 Q. When you reached the square in Kozarac, the point where the old road
10 meets Marsala Tita, were men told at that point to march ahead of the
12 A. In my estimate, there was about 1,000 at the time when we got there.
13 Q. When you got there, that is, to that area where the old road meets
14 Marsala Tita, were men at that point told to separate from the women
15 and march ahead of the women and children?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. In what direction were you told by Serbian forces to proceed?
18 A. To go towards Prijedor.
19 Q. In the area of Susici, near the Limenka bus stop, were men separated
20 from the women and children and told to board buses?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you attempt to plead with or speak with a Serbian soldier or
23 soldiers in order to be allowed to stay with your children?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Were you permitted to do so?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Was your father also in the group of men that were marching ahead?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. How old was he?
5 A. 72.
6 Q. Did he go with the group of women and children or did he go with the
7 group of men?
8 A. With the men, he went.
9 Q. Did you and your children then board a bus?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Where were you taken?
12 A. We went to the Trnopolje camp.
13 Q. When you arrived at the Trnopolje camp, first of all, were there
14 people already there?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can you estimate how many people were already at Trnopolje camp when
17 you arrived there?
18 A. There were about 1,000, 1500. I could not estimate exactly because
19 there were some in the school, but outside were about 1,000 to 1500
21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, the transcript has stopped, Miss
22 Featherstone tells me. We are not seeing it on our monitor.
23 MR. TIEGER: That is correct, your Honour, the same situation here.
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is it still not operative? Is it still not on the
25 monitor? Let us see. Are we operating now? I see the words
1 "Presiding Judge" several times but that is all -- yes, very good.
2 OK. Mr. Tieger, you need to repeat, I suppose, a couple of questions?
3 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Kesic, there were a couple of questions that were not
4 picked up on the transcript so I will ask those again. After you and
5 your children boarded the bus, were you then taken to Trnopolje camp?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Were there a large number of people already gathered there when you
8 arrived ----
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. --- in various portions of the camp and the school?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did people continue to arrive after you got there?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Was food provided for the prisoners of Trnopolje camp?
15 A. No.
16 Q. At the beginning of the operation of the camp, was it possible for
17 some people who had relatives in the nearby area to receive permission
18 to stay with those relatives?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. After three or four days in the camp, did you and your children
21 receive permission to stay with an uncle in Sivci?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. How many refugees were in Sivci at that time?
24 A. One could not estimate because all the houses were full, but there
25 were certainly, in my estimate, 2,000 to 2500.
1 Q. How many refugees were in your uncle's house?
2 A. We were about 50.
3 Q. After a period of time in Sivci was there a cleansing of the men in
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. About how long after you got to your uncle's house was that?
7 A. After 14 days.
8 Q. How did that cleansing begin? What did you first see?
9 A. Since my uncle's house is at the end of the village starting from the
10 camp, we were in the houses and the soldiers came with one tank. They
11 ordered that all men come out of the houses.
12 Q. Were the soldiers armed?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. How were they armed?
15 A. They had firearms, automatic rifles, rifles and hand guns.
16 Q. What time was this?
17 A. This was afternoon, around 1 o'clock.
18 Q. Did you try to tell these soldiers, as you had done at Limenka, that
19 your wife was dead and that your children only had you to help them?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What did they say this time?
22 A. That soldier whom I asked, he thought and asked another soldier next
23 to him and he said, "No way", that I had to go on the road, that I had
24 to -- that I had to start down the road, that I could not stay.
25 Q. Were there groups of Muslim men running down the road at this point?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you and the others from the house form a group or join another
3 group running down the road?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What happened as you began running down the road?
6 A. We ran down the road one after the other, and they ordered us to lie
8 Q. When you did lie down, what could you see and hear happening around
10 A. They were -- there was beating, there were screams. People were
11 being beaten and there was blood on the road.
12 Q. Were you eventually collected with others in the courtyard of a large
13 house farther down the road?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. After a short time there, were you ordered to board buses which had
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you know how many buses arrived?
19 A. Since I was not in the last bus I could not count but, in my
20 estimate, there were about six to seven buses.
21 Q. After you boarded the bus, where were you taken?
22 A. They took us past the Trnopolje camp to Keraterm.
23 Q. When you arrived at Keraterm camp were guards waiting?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What happened to the prisoners as they got off the buses?
1 A. Some were beaten by these soldiers, these guards.
2 Q. In what part of Keraterm camp were you then held?
3 A. I was in room 2.
4 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, may we have Exhibit 201 for just a moment? Sir,
5 do you recognise what is shown in that picture?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What is that?
8 A. That is the Keraterm camp.
9 Q. May 201 be placed for a moment on the Elmo?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Sir, can you point out on that photograph where room 2 was or where
12 the area where you were held was?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Please do so with the pointer on the desk.
15 A. [The witness indicated on the photograph].
16 Q. Thank you, sir. How long were you held at Keraterm?
17 A. I was about 20 to 25 days there. I could not -- I cannot remember
18 the exact number of days.
19 Q. After that were you transferred to Omarska camp?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Were you transferred with the main group of prisoners from Omarska
22 camp to Manjaca thereafter?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Mr. Kesic, what was the nationality of the prisoners in Keraterm
1 A. They were Muslims and Croats.
2 Q. What percentage, a higher percentage of one group than the other?
3 A. There were more Muslims.
4 Q. What were the general conditions in Keraterm like during the time you
5 were held there?
6 A. The conditions were dreadful. We were hungry. We were cramped. We
7 were almost on top of one another. There were no conditions so that
8 one could wash one's face or brush the teeth or anything at least
9 once, not to mention twice, a day. The hygiene was non-existent.
10 There was only one toilet that we all used and the stench was terrible
11 because nobody cleaned it. But hunger, hunger was the worst. One ate
12 once a day and one would be given something that they called "soup",
13 but it looked more like water than like soup, and a small piece of
14 bread and that was all. The vessels that we ate from were never
15 washed, but three or four of us would eat from the same container that
16 was never washed.
17 Q. Did people become ill with diseases such as disentery?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Was medical care provided for such people?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Mr. Kesic, were there beatings and killings in Keraterm?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Were prisoners called from the rooms and taken out and beaten or
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. How often would this happen?
2 A. It happened almost every day.
3 Q. Would some of the prisoners return from being called out with various
4 kinds of injuries from the beatings?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Some less, some more?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did some of the prisoners die from the injuries they received during
9 these beatings?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did some of the prisoners who were called out simply disappear?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Mr. Kesic, shortly after your arrival in Keraterm, were you among a
14 group of prisoners who were called out of the room and beaten?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you recall exactly how long this was after you arrived in
18 A. Exactly I would not know the number of days, but it was during the
19 first 10 days.
20 Q. Did this happen during the day or at night?
21 A. It was at night.
22 Q. If you know, about what time of night?
23 A. Well, it was not late into the night. It could have been two or
24 three hours after dusk, after the sun set. So it was the evening,
25 around 9 o'clock perhaps.
1 Q. Where were you in the room before you were called out?
2 A. I was near the entrance, near the door.
3 Q. Before you were called out, in what position were you -- standing,
4 sitting, lying down?
5 A. Sitting.
6 Q. Around the time you mentioned, did a group of soldiers or uniformed
7 people come into the room?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. When they came in, did you and the other prisoners react in some way?
10 Did you change positions in any way?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. How was that?
13 A. We endeavoured to be as small as possible, to be the least
14 conspicuous as possible and we tried to shrink.
15 Q. Was there a light inside the room?
16 A. No.
17 Q. After the group came into the room, did one of them say anything?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What was that?
20 A. He said something like, "Does anybody want to return", those soldiers
21 or him personally, all that we were, would anybody like to pay back to
22 him or other soldiers for all the beatings everything that happened,
23 so if anybody wanted to beat back.
24 Q. Did any of the prisoners volunteer to do that at that point?
25 A. No.
1 Q. What happened then?
2 A. There were various comments that we were cowards, that we were no
3 combatants, and then, well, if there is, he said, "Well, 10 of you may
4 come out if you -- feel free, nothing will happen to them now, nothing
5 will happen to them later".
6 Q. Did any of the prisoners respond to that?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You and the others just continued to try to make yourself as
9 invisible as possible?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Then what happened?
12 A. Then he said, "Then I will pick out myself, if you do not want to
13 come out yourselves".
14 Q. At that point were people picked out or did people leave at that
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did he pick out particular people?
18 A. No.
19 Q. How were the people who left the room selected to leave?
20 A. He said something like, "First, you two, from you two the first 10
21 come out".
22 Q. Did you know from your position in the room or from glancing around
23 that you were among the first 10 in the room?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. How did you and the others leave the room?
1 A. We stood up, one after the other, and came out.
2 Q. When you got outside of the room, did you form a group or did you
3 walk forward in a line?
4 A. We walked one after the other in a line.
5 Q. Was there light outside?
6 A. There was light. It came from a car which had its lights on. There
7 was nothing else.
8 Q. As you and the other prisoners formed a line outside of room 2, did
9 you see whether there were guards or soldiers around you?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What happened after you and the others were lined up?
12 A. Then one walked from one to the other, asking what was his name,
13 where he came from, whether he had any weapons, and hitting him.
14 Q. Was that done one prisoner at a time, as far as you could tell?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Approximately, where were you in the line?
17 A. I was somewhere in the middle. Yes, I was somewhere in the middle.
18 Q. What happened when the person who was going from prisoner to prisoner
19 asking questions and beating them reached you?
20 A. He asked me what my name was, where I came from, whether I had any
22 Q. At that point were you supposed to look down at the ground or were
23 you supposed to look at the person asking you the questions?
24 A. You had to look at him, to look up at his face.
25 Q. Did you recognise who that was?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Who was it?
3 A. It was Dusko Tadic.
4 Q. After he asked you your name, where you came from and whether you had
5 weapons, first of all, what did you answer when he asked whether you
6 had weapons?
7 A. I said that I did not have.
8 Q. Did he say anything in response to that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What was that?
11 A. He said, "You all say that you did not have any weapons, that you
12 don't have any weapons".
13 Q. What happened after that?
14 A. He asked me, and struck me at that.
15 Q. Where were you struck?
16 A. Here, around the stomach, a little bit higher.
17 Q. What happened to you after you were struck?
18 A. I was gasping for air. I remained breathless and I squatted.
19 Q. You squatted on the ground?
20 A. Yes, I went down on to my knees on the ground.
21 Q. Were you struck anywhere else?
22 A. At that moment, no, or I do not remember well, but later when we
23 returned, on my upper lip I had -- from inside it was slightly
24 injured, there was a little blood, but I paid no attention to that and
25 that blow if I was hit indeed do not remember at all. I did not
1 consider it a blow.
2 Q. Were you finally able to rise from that squatting position on your
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did Dusko Tadic continue to go down the line of prisoners to the ones
6 who had not yet been beaten?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did he beat them as well?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did some of the other guards or soldiers who were around the group of
11 prisoners also participate in the beating?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. After all the prisoners had been beaten, what happened?
14 A. We were taken back to the dormitory.
15 Q. Do you recall what Dusko Tadic was wearing on this occasion?
16 A. He had a camouflage multi-coloured uniform.
17 Q. Mr. Kesic, you mentioned that prisoners were regularly beaten in
18 Keraterm. Was there a group or groups of persons from outside the
19 camp who would come regularly to call prisoners out and beat them?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Were there some persons who came with these groups more frequently to
22 the camp?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Who was that?
25 A. The most frequent visitor was Zoran Zigic called "Ziga" and Duca. I
1 know his nickname name "Duca", I do not know either his first name or
2 his surname.
3 Q. As a result of the incident which you described during which you were
4 beaten by Dusko Tadic, did you regard him as part of the group or
5 groups that came virtually every day or night to Keraterm?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Mr. Kesic, I noted that in your statement to the Tribunal
8 investigator it said that you saw Tadic more or less every day in
9 Keraterm. Did you mean by that that you saw Dusko Tadic more or less
10 every day in Keraterm with your own eyes?
11 A. No, I did not see him every day with my own eyes.
12 Q. Other than the occasion you have just described for us, did you ever
13 see Dusko Tadic in Keraterm with your own eyes in such a way that you
14 could be certain it was him as you were on that night?
15 A. No.
16 Q. But you regarded him as part of the groups that came more or less
17 every day?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Mr. Kesic, do you see Dusko Tadic in court here today?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you point him out, please, and tell us what he is wearing?
22 A. He has a jacket and a tie, a shirt, blue, and so .....
23 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, may the record reflect the identification of the
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, the record will reflect that the witness
1 identified the accused.
2 MR. TIEGER: That is all I have, your Honour. No further questions.
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Cross-examination, Mr. Kay?
4 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.
5 Cross-Examined by MR. KAY
6 Q. This occasion that you have described as having been beaten by Dusko
7 Tadic, Mr. Kesic, happened during the night time, is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You are uncertain of the date. You cannot help us with when this
10 occurred, is that right?
11 A. No.
12 Q. On the occasion that you describe, how many guards or soldiers were
13 involved in this incident?
14 A. There were about five or six of them, not more than that.
15 Q. You had been in room 2 of Keraterm camp at this time, is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Was that the first room in Keraterm that you were placed in?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. On any occasion before this, had you been taken out of your room and
20 beaten by guards or soldiers?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Had you been interrogated at Keraterm camp?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Were you beaten during that interrogation?
25 A. No.
1 Q. For how long after this incident did you remain in Keraterm camp?
2 A. Some 15 days or so, perhaps two weeks.
3 Q. Did you receive any beatings in that period afterwards that you were
4 in Keraterm?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you see Zoran Zigic at Keraterm?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you see the man that you called Duca at Keraterm?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. When you were taken out of room 2 on the occasion you say that Dusko
11 Tadic beats you, did you know why you and other prisoners were being
12 taken from that room?
13 A. No.
14 Q. So it was not a case that you were selected for any particular
16 A. No.
17 Q. It was a random taking of you and others from that room?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You had been positioned by the door of that room as your spot in the
20 room for the previous 10 days, had you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Were you the first to be taken out of the room or the last or in the
23 middle? Can you tell me about that?
24 A. I was somewhere in the middle, neither the first nor the last.
25 Q. Were all this group of 10 near that door, in the area that you were
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. There was no light inside the room, is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Had the door to that room been shut beforehand?
6 A. No.
7 Q. But did a guard or a soldier come to the door of the room and select
8 you and the others, tell you to come out?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. When you got out of the room, were you put in a line or were you just
11 standing around as a group of prisoners?
12 A. They lined us up in a column.
13 Q. If I can put the question this way, had your interrogation by someone
14 in the camp taken place before this time?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Had you been questioned about arms or weapons during your detention
17 in Keraterm before this time?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Had other people, do you know, in that room No. 2 where you were held
20 been questioned and interrogated?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. As part of their questioning, do you know if they had been questioned
23 about things such as weapons or arms or whether they were involved in
24 paramilitary groups?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Had any of that group that you were in, the 10 men taken from room
2 No. 2, previously been questioned or interrogated, do you know that?
3 A. I do not.
4 Q. So, can you remember any of the other names of the people in that
5 group of 10 from room No. 2?
6 A. There was a relative of mine, Sivac Dudo. I remember him. He was
7 next to me. I cannot remember others.
8 Q. Did you know any of the other guards or soldiers who were part of
9 that group who were beating you outside?
10 A. No.
11 Q. In being asked these questions, whether you had weapons or arms, was
12 it a proper questioning? Were you expected to answer what was being
13 asked of you?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did anyone reply to this questioning?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. How did you answer to it?
18 A. I answered that I did not have any kind of weapon.
19 Q. This was a random group taken from that room who were being asked
20 these questions. You were not a particular group of 10 men who had
21 anything in common, is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. The lighting outside this room, you said, came from a vehicle. Where
24 was that parked?
25 A. It was parked in front of this dormitory of ours.
1 Q. Where were the lights shining?
2 A. They were directed towards the camp, towards our dormitory.
3 Q. I can take it, can I, from the questioning by the Prosecution that
4 you have made allegations that Dusko Tadic had assaulted you on other
5 occasions about which you were not sure that it was him, is that
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. When did you tell the Prosecution that you were not sure about those
9 other occasions?
10 A. On the occasion of the second interrogation or the third, then I said
11 I was not sure that I saw him every time.
12 Q. If I might ask you what the date was, if you can remember that?
13 A. I cannot remember the date, but it was after -- about five, six days
14 after the first case was that second one.
15 Q. How long ago, can you tell me in terms of weeks or months?
16 A. I am sorry, I did not understand the whole question correctly.
17 Q. I do not know the dates of your interviews, you see. How long ago
18 would that have been that you told them that you were not certain
19 about the other things you had said? How long ago from today's date?
20 A. Some four or five months ago, approximately, approximately.
21 Q. So what it comes to is this, that you are saying you are certain
22 about this one occasion and this happened some 10 days after you were
23 in the camp?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Dusko Tadic was not a man that you knew well, is that not right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. He was not a man you drunk with?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Or eaten with?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Or socialised with?
7 A. No.
8 Q. The time when you say you saw him, this was at night time when the
9 light was coming from a vehicle that was shining towards that
10 dormitory where you and the others were lined up?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you know a man called Miso Danicic?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You see, what I suggest to you is that you are mistaken about that
15 man who attacked you being Dusko Tadic?
16 A. No.
17 Q. As you have made allegations before that you were uncertain about, is
18 this something as well that really you are uncertain about?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Are you still making this allegation because of the need to stand by
21 something in accusing Dusko Tadic?
22 A. I think it is my duty to say what I know for sure.
23 MR. KAY: I have no further questions.
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger?
25 MR. TIEGER: Just one question, your Honour.
1 Re-examined by MR. TIEGER
2 Q. Mr. Kesic, was there sufficient light the night you were beaten to
3 recognise that the man right in front of you asking you questions was
4 Dusko Tadic?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.
7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
8 MR. KAY: Nothing arises, your Honour.
9 Examined by the Court
10 JUDGE STEPHEN: Witness, when you were lined up, were you in a line
11 parallel to the building that we have seen in the photograph with your
12 backs to the building?
13 A. We were turned with our backs to the building as we came out of the
14 building, so we lined up in front of it.
15 Q. That means you were facing the lights of the motor car, were you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Whoever beat you would have had his back to the motor car?
18 A. No.
19 Q. How would he have been positioned then?
20 A. When we came out, and I forgot to say that, I apologise, out of the
21 dormitory we were standing facing the light. Then we all turned to
22 the left, to the left, so that the light was coming from the right.
23 Q. So it was not a question of each one of you turning, but the whole
24 line pivoted, did it, round to a position right angles to the
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kesic, do you recall the date that you went to
4 Keraterm camp?
5 A. It was around June 15th.
6 Q. Let us see. You were taken to Trnopolje four days after the attack
7 at Kozarac, is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You stayed there for three or four days, is that your testimony?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Then you went to Sivci, is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Then after about 14 days after being in Sivci you were taken to
14 Keraterm, is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, do you have additional questions?
17 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour, if I could see Exhibit 201 again? May that
18 be placed on the Elmo?
19 Further re-examined by MR. TIEGER
20 Q. Mr. Kesic, if you could just show us using the pointer how the row of
21 prisoners was lined up after you left room 2?
22 A. [The witness indicated on the photograph] We were lined up like
23 this, straight, and then we turned this way, pivoting.
24 JUDGE STEPHEN: That does not tell me anything.
25 MR. TIEGER: I appreciate that. Sir, I think you indicated that the
1 prisoners left room 2 one by one?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Walking out one behind the other?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. As you walked out, therefore, with your backs to the room?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Then at some point did the group stop as it proceeded out from the
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Was that the approximate position then of the row of prisoners during
11 the time you were beaten?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So the group came out from the room one by one, walked a certain
14 distance and then basically stopped and turned and then that was the
15 position in which the beating occurred?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I do not know if that ----
18 JUDGE STEPHEN: I have nothing to say.
19 MR. TIEGER: One more question, Mr. Kesic. Was the line of prisoners
20 between the dormitory and where the car was parked?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you show us on Exhibit 201 approximately where that vehicle was
23 parked with the pointer?
24 A. Yes. [The witness indicated on the photograph]. It was around here,
25 approximately. There was a kiosk where those guards -- there was a
1 kiosk where those guards were like hid from the rain, and the car was
2 here, here around.
3 MR. TIEGER: Thank you. Nothing further.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay? Additional questions?
5 MR. KAY: No, thank you, your Honour.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to Mr. Kesic being permanently
8 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kesic, you are permanently excused. You are free
10 to leave. Thank you for coming. We will stand in recess for 20
12 (4.00 p.m.)
13 (Short Adjournment)
14 (4.20 p.m.)
15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?
16 MR. NIEMANN: May it please your Honour, I call Adil Jakupovic.
17 ADIL JAKUPOVIC, called.
18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Jakupovic, would you please take the oath that
19 is being given to you?
20 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak the
21 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
22 (The witness was sworn)
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you, sir. You may be seated.
24 Examined by MR. NIEMANN
25 Q. Is your full name Adil Jakupovic?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. When were you born, Mr. Jakupovic?
3 A. 23rd November '41.
4 Q. Were you born in the village of Jakupovici?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Approximately, how far is that from Kozarac?
7 A. Well, about six kilometres.
8 Q. Did you start your primary school in Jakupovici?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Then did you continue in Kozarac, in the Kozarac primary school?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you do some of your secondary school in Kozarac before going to
13 Banja Luka?
14 A. I went for training to a store and then to a school in Banja Luka
15 because one had to undergo training first and then continue the
17 Q. Did you live in the Kozarac area right up until the beginning of the
18 war in 1992?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you work as a manager of a warehouse?
21 A. Well, for about 12 or 13 years I worked in some two or three shops,
22 and then the rest of the time I worked in the warehouse of a wholesale
23 company in Prijedor.
24 Q. Did you do your military service in 1967 through to 1968?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did you attend your military service in Macedonia?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Are you Muslim? Is Muslim your ethnic group?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You said that you were a manager of a warehouse. How long before the
6 attack on Kozarac did you work in that position, approximately?
7 A. Well, for some six or seven days, something like that. Then they
8 forbid us to go to work.
9 Q. Was that people who were non-Serb were forbidden to go to work?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did the attack on Kozarac occur on 24th May 1992 in the afternoon?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Were you taking shelter in a basement of a neighbour's house?
14 A. Before the shelling, I was sitting with my neighbour in front of his
15 house and we were talking that this might happen, and after several
16 minutes the first shell fell and then we ran down under his staircase.
17 We stayed there, I do not know, there were countless shells which
18 fell and broke a window on his house. Then we moved on to basement
19 where it was slightly safer. When it stopped for a while, I rushed
20 out to see what was happening to my family, whether they were all
21 right, because they were to be with a neighbour who had a concrete
22 cellar. I think it was three houses away from mine. His name was
23 Namik Majic.
24 Q. But subsequently did you then flee into the woods surrounding
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you stay in these woods for a period of approximately four days?
3 A. Well, I had a summer cottage in the woods on the top, at the end of
4 the inhabited area, some 600 metres of altitude. My son and daughter
5 and my wife left with a neighbour in a car in the direction of that
6 summer cottage, and my elder son and I started through Kozarac. My
7 son moved faster and he left. I did not see him. Later on, I learned
8 that he had turned left in the woods and I went towards the village of
9 Brdjani up there towards my summer cottage.
10 I followed the road for a while and then I continued through
11 the forest, as the road which took us by the mountaineer's lodge was
12 under constant fire, so there was no way. When I was coming down
13 every 20 or 30 centimetres there was a shell, so I reached the summer
14 cottage and I did not find my family there.
15 Q. Did you subsequently meet up with your family?
16 A. Subsequently, when I saw they were not there, I returned to look for
17 them. I assumed that I ought to find them, whether alive or dead,
18 along the way which they were to follow. I passed along that road and
19 I did not find them, so I thought they must have been dead.
20 Q. But subsequently you did find them, is that right?
21 A. After that I did find them in a ditch, under a big tree, under a
22 bush. I found them and we went to the other side of the forest
23 because I knew the road which was shelled less and we reached the
24 summer cottage.
25 Q. I asked you earlier, after four days you then came back down into
1 Kozarac because other people were doing that, is that right?
2 A. One night we came down from the forest to a village called Vidovici
3 above Kozarac, and we spent that day there and the night, and the next
4 day we were told that we all had to come down because they were about
5 to shell that area within about half an hour.
6 Q. When you came down into Kozarac, did you and members of your family
7 meet someone there that you knew?
8 A. I came down by car and my family with two neighbours, and we came
9 down to the Prijedor/Banja Luka road, and there were lots of military
10 there, lots of people, waiting for buses or what do I know?
11 Meanwhile, a soldier came up to me and asked me if I was Adila
12 Jakupovic and I said, "Yes". He said, "Come over here, Zoran Karlica
13 wants to see you". This was a friend of mine, a mountaineer, with
14 whom I had spent a lot of time mountaineering and he worked in a
15 mountaineers's club, and he was a reserve officer of the Serb Army.
16 Q. He was a Serb himself?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What did Zoran Karlica then do with you and your family?
19 A. He said he would take us over, he would transfer us to Prijedor, and
20 with me, Sead Kusuran, my neighbour, and his mother came along with
21 me. He asked, "Do you have to go somewhere?" He perhaps thought of
22 taking us somewhere and then said, suggested that he take us to his
23 mother-in-law who lived in Prijedor and he drove us there and left us
25 Q. Did you then stay in Prijedor city itself, in two locations in that
1 city, for a period of four months from this date?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. When you lived in Kozarac, what part of Kozarac did you live?
4 A. I lived in Titova Street, somewhere around the centre, No. 42.
5 MR. NIEMANN: Might the witness please be shown Exhibit 220? Mr.
6 Jakupovic, I would ask you, please, to just look at that plan for a
7 moment and familiarise yourself with it. Then I am going to ask that
8 it be put on the overhead projector and I will get you to point for me
9 at where your house was located, approximately. OK?
10 A. The house was here.
11 Q. I did ask that we put that on an overhead projector and it will now
12 come up on the television screen in front of you. Can I ask you to
13 point to it on the machine there, not on the computer, with a pointer,
14 if you can, point to where your house was? You need to hold it very
15 steady when you put it on there.
16 A. [The witness indicated on the plan] My house was here, more or less,
17 here in this corner.
18 Q. Thank you. Do you know the accused in these proceedings, Mr. Dusko
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How long have you known him?
22 A. Well, sometime in '69 I bought this lot and started building the
23 house there and Dusko Tadic's house -- and there was one man between
24 us. He together with me bought that lot, but I began to build my
25 house before him and that is when I met his father I knew well. I
1 mean, as I was building the house, Dusko Tadic was a child then, but I
2 mean I used to see his brothers across this boundary. Then, later on
3 over the years, of course, I came to know him quite well, although
4 considering that he must be some 20 years younger.
5 Q. The house that Dusko Tadic lived in was one house away from your
6 house, is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Who owned the house in the middle, between your house and Dusko
9 Tadic's house?
10 A. Sulejman Mujagic's house, we had bought that plot of land together
11 and then reached an understanding and started building our houses.
12 Q. Thank you. I would ask, please, that the witness be shown this
13 photograph. There are extra copies made for your Honours, an enlarged
14 version of it. Perhaps it could be marked Exhibit 299? Just look at
15 that photograph, if you would, for me, please, Mr. Jakupovic? Can you
16 tell me if you recognise what you see there?
17 A. Yes, that is my house -- former.
18 Q. I ask that that photograph be placed on the overhead projector.
19 Perhaps it could be blown up to its full size? Mr. Jakupovic, using
20 the pointer for me again, please, on the photograph itself would you
21 please point to your house?
22 A. [The witness indicated on the photograph].
23 Q. Just hold the photograph still, please. Point to it again for me,
25 A. [The witness indicated on the photograph].
1 Q. Right. Can you point to the house of Sulejman Mujagic?
2 A. [The witness indicated on the photograph].
3 Q. Thank you. Can you point to the house where Dusko Tadic lived?
4 A. [The witness indicated on the photograph].
5 Q. Thank you. I tender that photograph, your Honour.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?
7 MR. KAY: No objection, your Honour.
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 299 will be admitted.
9 MR. NIEMANN: Might the witness be shown this photograph and it be given
10 the number 300?
11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, I am having a problem with this Exhibit
12 299, identifying Mr. Tadic's house. The witness says it is ----
13 MR. NIEMANN: I will ask the witness to do it again.
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Just so that when we go back and try to look at
15 this, we will know what we are looking at.
16 MR. NIEMANN: By all means. Before the witness is given that photograph,
17 could you please give the witness back Exhibit 299 and can it be
18 placed on the overhead projector? Mr. Jakupovic, I would ask you,
19 please, with the pointer to hold the pointer very steady on the house
20 that you say Dusko Tadic lived in, please?
21 A. [The witness indicated on the photograph].
22 Q. Just hold it in place. Thank you.
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you.
24 MR. NIEMANN: Now might the witness be shown 300? Do you recognise that
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What is it a photograph of?
3 A. This is the photograph of the Tadics' house and this part is his
4 coffee bar. This part here was residential. I think that one of the
5 brothers had opened their storage room.
6 Q. OK. I will ask you some questions about that. Might it be placed on
7 the overhead projector, please? Can you point to the part of the
8 house which you said was his cafe bar?
9 A. [The witness indicated on the photograph]. These were the business
11 Q. Just hold it steady there. Do you know in what part of that building
12 Dusko Tadic himself lived?
13 A. This was the entrance and this is part of the old house, and there he
14 lived in this part of the old house.
15 Q. Was this house sort of built in one stage and then subsequently added
16 to, was it?
17 A. This part here that you can see was a smaller house. It existed when
18 I came to the primary school and then it was added and built up, I do
19 not know when.
20 Q. Can you, if you can -- you may not be able to -- point to the parts
21 that were added to subsequently after the main building, the first
22 building, went in?
23 A. This here part with the restaurant, this is part of the old house,
24 this part here, although this was added, there was one room and
25 perhaps one door. Here, I believe there were three rooms here. I do
1 not remember any more. This did not exist and the roof was turned
2 like this.
3 Q. Mr. Jakupovic, if you are to help us, you will need to hold the
4 pointer in one spot and leave it there otherwise it is too quick and
5 we do not see what you are pointing to. Do you know the name of the
6 cafe bar?
7 A. The coffee bar was called Nipon.
8 Q. Was there a sign saying "Nipon cafe bar"?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Where was that sign located, are you able to point to that on the
12 A. [The witness indicated on the photograph]. I think it was here above
13 the door.
14 Q. Thank you. Yes, I tender that photo. 300?
15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?
16 MR. KAY: No objection.
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 300, is it ----
18 MR. NIEMANN: 300, your Honour.
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: --- 300 will be admitted.
20 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Jakupovic, was your family and the Tadic family close
21 and did you socialise with each other?
22 A. My wife was friends with his wife and mother, and I saw his father
23 quite often, we thought him one of exemplary citizens there. He was a
24 man who fought in the last war since '41 and he knew a lot, and I
25 liked talking to him. He told us stories about the last war.
1 Q. Did you know Dusko Tadic's brothers and the other members of the
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you know his wife's family?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. During the time that you saw Dusko Tadic in Kozarac, did you know him
7 to have a beard?
8 A. Well, sometimes he had a beard, sometimes he did not.
9 Q. So, it was a case of growing it and then shaving it off and then
10 growing it back again?
11 A. Yes, it was fashionable at a certain time, not everybody had a beard,
12 but what do I know?
13 Q. Apart from Mr. Tadic being involved in his cafe bar, did you know
14 what other interests he had?
15 A. As far as I know, he was into karate in the school, I think.
16 Q. Did he coach karate, so far as you know?
17 A. Yes, yes, yes, he instructed young people, boys, lads -- I do not
18 know much about that -- I guess from small children to grown ups.
19 Q. Do you know whether Dusko Tadic had any interest in politics at all?
20 A. Before the war, no, I did not notice that he was active in politics.
21 But when the Serb authority took over in Prijedor and, what do I
22 know, then or rather earlier before that, towards the end of April,
23 television and all the rest were cut off, that is, the television in
24 Sarajevo. All one could watch was television Belgrade and once -- I
25 did not believe that he could be a member of some Party, I do not
1 know, of some national, some Serb Party, but then I watched a report
2 from Prijedor, from a session, and he was siting there also amongst
3 those authorities of theirs that they had brought. Later on I learned
4 that there were those whom I saw and it was not really particularly
6 Q. Were you yourself interested in politics?
7 A. No, never in my life was I active in politics, nor did I know what it
8 was. I worked day and night because I was a poor man, so I wanted to
9 create something and had two sons -- as a matter of fact, I still have
10 two sons and a daughter -- so that I worked. Sometimes, when need be,
11 I was also an upholsterer and sometimes, so as to keep my word, I
12 worked throughout the night.
13 Q. In addition to what you saw on television, did you ever read or hear
14 about an article written about Dusko Tadic in the newspaper concerning
15 a letter that he is said to have received?
16 A. Yes, I did. Several papers wrote about it, but I do not know whether
17 it was Glas of Banja Luka or a Prijedor paper or Kozarski Vjesnik
18 wrote about those letters, saying that a group of, what do I know,
19 perhaps not a group, but some younger Muslims had sent him a letter.
20 Q. Do you know what the nature of this letter was that was sent to him?
21 A. I did not, I mean, I could not really guess. Some said it was
22 political reasons, others said it was commercial reasons. Then one of
23 the journalists said, "If you do not hate Muslims, Dusko Tadic, please
24 prove that. Open your coffee bar to see what was there".
25 Q. But I am asking you, Mr. Jakupovic, if you can tell us what the
1 letter was about, did you know, not the reasons for being sent but
2 what it was about?
3 A. What do you mean? I do not understand. In that story, in that story
4 in the papers or in the letter?
5 Q. Yes, the story you read in the paper, what did it say the letter was
7 A. Well, they said, I do not remember the title, but it was an ugly
8 title for those people in Kozarac. It said that Dusko Tadic had
9 received a threatening letter, that he, his wife, his children, what
10 do I know, would be killed, I do not remember the contents, and then
11 the signature was mladi Muslimani -- young Muslims -- from Kozarac.
12 Q. Do you know whether this was subsequently investigated, this letter
13 that had been sent?
14 A. I heard from some young men, some were even summoned, those who were
15 suspected, but nobody was discovered, the authors of this letter from
16 what I heard and I knew nothing about it until about, I do not know,
17 until about some months ago. I bought a book issued by a television
18 cameraman from Sarajevo and ----
19 Q. You need not tell us about what you read a couple of months ago. I
20 just wanted you to tell us what you knew at the time. Did you ever go
21 or have occasion to go into the cafe bar of Dusko Tadic, the Nipon
22 cafe bar?
23 A. Yes, I frequented it. My son worked there for a while and I went
24 even after that letter because after all I was a next door neighbour,
25 and other people whom I considered cleverer than I was and others
1 thought that we should frequent it as much as possible because others
2 boycotted it and did not go.
3 Q. Why did you do that?
4 A. I was his next door neighbour, so as to somehow combat the evil.
5 Simply, I was a Muslim and if this letter was sent, then perhaps he
6 could think that it had been written in my house or something like
8 Q. You said earlier in your evidence that you and your family had moved
9 to Prijedor where you stayed for a period of some four months. During
10 the time that you were in Prijedor, did you ever see Dusko Tadic?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. On how many occasions did you see him in Prijedor?
13 A. Twice.
14 Q. When, approximately, as best you can remember, was the first time
15 that you saw him?
16 A. I do not know exactly. I cannot say the month. I think it was in
17 August. I was gathering some documentation for emigration because for
18 two and a half months I had not stepped outside. I was not seen by
19 the sun or the moon, as the saying goes. Then I decided to ask for
20 that and to leave, if I can.
21 Q. Did you hear that people were able to get papers which permitted them
22 to leave the Prijedor area and go outside of Yugoslavia or, I should
23 add, Bosnia?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What was required of people in order to do this? What did they have
1 to do in order to gain these papers?
2 A. One needed previously, I think, 12 or 13 different certificates that
3 you paid up all your phone bills, your utility bills, that you were
4 not in debt with banks, a lot of things, but one of the main ones was
5 from SUP. It was taken at SUP and that was a certificate about no
6 previous criminal record and the men would go and then also the
7 cessation of residence, and I gathered some of these documents, in
8 fact my wife did too, but when I needed this cessation of residence
9 certificate, I could not go there, I did not dare. I heard there were
10 long lines and if there was a man on the line the police would come
11 and take him away.
12 Q. So did you seek the assistance of your brother-in-law in relation to
14 A. Yes, he was not far from me, but we did not see each other. We did
15 not dare go out. There was the police curfew all the time and, in
16 general, you could not go out. We talked on the phone, and he said
17 that we should ask for this certificate and I said I dare not go. He
18 says that Dule could do this, and he arranged with him so that he
19 would come to me and that I would go with him to take out this
21 Q. When he said "Dule would do this", by whom did you understand "Dule"
22 to mean?
23 A. Yes, yes, I know that -- I knew that he did it for him too.
24 Q. No. I am asking you whom did you understand "Dule" to be, Dule who?
25 A. Dusko Tadic.
1 Q. Did you then go to the SUP building?
2 A. It was arranged that we meet in front of a state run pub and we met
3 there and we went.
4 Q. When you say "we met there", tell us who it was in the party, each
5 member of the party you met?
6 A. Dusko and myself.
7 Q. Was your brother-in-law there?
8 A. No.
9 Q. When you met Dusko Tadic, did you have a conversation?
10 A. Yes, just on the way he asked me, "Where were you up until now?
11 Where are your children? Everybody alive?" things like that.
12 Meanwhile, we arrived at the SUP and passed by a huge crowd of people
13 in the line and got inside.
14 Q. Were you with Dusko Tadic all the time as you passed this long line?
15 A. Well, yes, I came with him to the door of that office where the
16 certificates were being taken out. There was a long line, one to the
17 next, and he went over to this clerk and he got the certificate and we
18 met in the hallway in front at the entrance.
19 Q. When he gave the certificate to you, did he say anything to you?
20 A. When he gave me the certificate he said, "I have to tell you
21 something. It is all in vain, these documents that you are chasing".
22 I saw, I do not know where, he saw the list for people to be arrested
23 and I was on that list.
24 Q. What did you say to him then?
25 A. I said that I could not believe that, that if there was anybody who
1 was innocent, who was not guilty at all, that was me.
2 Q. What did he say to you then?
3 A. He asked me, "You worked on a wholesale warehouse, were you sending
4 any food for this TO which was in Kozarac?" and I said "No", that that
5 was a computer database and you could not, even the director could not
6 take out any chocolate. It was well organised and strictly
7 controlled, but it did not even occur to me.
8 Q. By the "TO" did you understand him to mean the Territorial Defence?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What did you say to him then? What happened then?
11 A. I asked him, what should I do?
12 Q. What did he say?
13 A. He said, "I do not know" or "What do you want?" and I said, "Can you
14 verify this?" I do not believe it because my name, as far as I know,
15 on the census there were about 7,000 of my people with my last name.
16 Then right there we went to another office. I think -- I do not think
17 that even the door was closed to that office. He walked inside and I
18 stood about two, three metres away from there, and a large strong man
19 came. He was an officer, a police officer. I do not know what his
20 rank was. He asked, "What is the matter?"
21 Q. Did Dule Tadic say something to him, to this big officer that you
22 saw, the tall officer that came?
23 A. He told him -- I do not know how you are going to understand me; it
24 was, it was as a joke -- "I caught my neighbour", and he used the word
25 "uhitio" which is a Croatian word for "to catch".
1 Q. Who said that? Who said, "I caught my neighbour"? Was that Dusko
3 A. Dusko, yes, laughing, he said to the officer. He saw that that was
4 not it, so he said again, "What's the matter?" Then he said, "I read
5 that he is on the list for people to be arrested. He is my neighbour
6 and he would like to verify that he does not believe it."
7 Q. What happened then?
8 A. Then the officer called some man, a policeman who was thin and tall.
9 He went upstairs and after about four or five minutes he returned.
10 He said, "Yes, he is on the list but not on the main one." Then he
11 said "Yes". I do not know if he said he was not in the main book or
12 on the main list. What he said was, "He is on the list but not the
13 main one."
14 Q. What did he say to you then after this? What did the officer then
15 say to you?
16 A. Then this one said, "OK, it doesn't matter, you can go. If we need
17 you we will find you."
18 Q. After you stayed in Prijedor for that four-month period, where did
19 you go then?
20 A. After four months we were in the house of a man who worked in
21 Germany, and a friend of my wife put us up there and there was food
22 there. That was then and then the food ran out. There were problems
23 at night and day time. Then we heard that there was a rescue in
24 Trnopolje, that the Red Cross would bring people out who went there.
25 So we decided to go to Trnopolje camp.
1 Q. When you said "bring people out", did you understand that to
2 mean taking people out of Bosnia?
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. So, did you and your family then go to Trnopolje camp?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Was this on 2nd October 1992?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. When you arrived at Trnopolje camp, can you tell the Court what the
9 conditions of the camp were like on 2nd October 1992?
10 A. Who was weak of heart they could have had a heart seizure. Next to
11 the school building they built large holes and these provisional
12 toilets were made, and then around the toilets there were faeces,
13 maybe 20 metres, maybe farther out, huge piles of crockery, of
14 clothes, other things, on the other side tents. It was terrible.
15 When you entered you were shocked.
16 Q. What was the situation with respect to the water supply there?
17 A. There was a truck -- before we arrived, myself and my family, it was
18 put there by the International Red Cross. I do not know if there was
19 something plastic there. There was water and then you came and you
20 stood in line. They said that the water was not drinkable, so there
21 were two pumps across the street, two just hand pumps for water.
22 Q. Where were you and your family located in the camp?
23 A. My son was on the staircase where they were put in like a janitors'
24 room, that is where he was with a couple of his friends his age, and
25 then the younger son with his then girlfriend (they are married now
1 and they were separated). My wife was in a classroom. It was
2 considered secure, it was four or five in. I was in the boiler room.
3 Q. Was this all in the school building itself?
4 A. The school building was packed. There was an old building at the end
5 of that perimeter that was for building materials and it was full.
6 There was an old agricultural commune building, I do not know if you
7 know what that is. Then there was a cinema theatre. That is how it
8 was built. There were other buildings. There was a clinic and then
9 there was a store and that was full too. In the back behind the
10 school, that is between the school and the cinema theatre, there was
11 something like a playground where they would put up tents from
12 armoured wire, and then over that was put whatever, plastic paper,
13 whatever they found. It was better under those tents than inside
14 because the sewer broke inside and then all the faeces were coming
15 out, and then they separated it out with blankets and other clothes.
16 Then halfway down the hallway the children were lying because there
17 was no room anywhere else, and so they had to make a choice. They
18 were too cold, so there was nowhere else to go.
19 Q. Approximately how many people were located in these various buildings
20 and in the plastic makeshift tents that you have described?
21 A. They say there were about 3500 people. It was on a day when
22 Mazowiecki came. That is what I heard. When he came, when he saw it
23 he was crying like a child. That is when I heard from the interpreter
24 that there were 3500 people there.
25 Q. Was the camp guarded? Were the prisoners in the camp under guard?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. When you first arrived there did you know where the guards had come
4 A. When I arrived I did not know, but I heard right away after about
5 half an hour that those were the native villagers from Trnopolje which
6 frightened me. There was the last name Cavic, a short stocky, I think
7 shorter than I am, he was the worst that they said. They told, "Don't
8 come near him for anything in the world."
9 Q. Did the guards subsequently change? Did they change the guards after
10 you had arrived there?
11 A. Later they changed the guards when the International Red Cross
12 arrived, and then some professor, I do not know what his name is, and
13 a doctor was also there. They talked to us and talked about the
14 conditions, and then they were coming in with little flash lights,
15 would take good shoes if they found any in front of the doors. They
16 were taking young girls. Then after a few days the guards changed.
17 They put real policemen, younger men, dressed uniformly and they were
19 Q. These younger men that were recruited as the guards, do you know what
20 nationality they were?
21 A. I did not know. They were speaking Serbian language. They probably
22 were Serbs. I think theoretically otherwise.
23 Q. Do you know where they come from, what part of Yugoslavia they had
24 come from these new guards that came in?
25 A. I think that they could have been from Prijedor. I was almost all
1 over Yugoslavia, in Yugoslavia and abroad, and I knew the dialects, I
2 knew the Serbo-Croat dialect. I think most probably they were all
3 from Prijedor or surrounding areas or maybe Banja Luka. I do not
5 Q. But you were not sure precisely from what area from their accents?
6 A. No, I did not. I was not leaving the building without some
7 important, you know, if you went to get bread or something.
8 Q. So are you saying that you stayed in the building most of the time
9 unless you absolutely had to go out?
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. Did you speak to the guards from time to time or did you avoid this?
12 A. I never spoke to anybody.
13 Q. When these guards changed from the old guards to the new ones that
14 were brought in, about when did that happen, can you remember?
15 A. I do not know, I mean date-wise I do not, but maybe half a month
16 after we arrived.
17 Q. How were these people dressed, these guards dressed, the new guards
18 that came?
19 A. They were dressed in camouflage uniforms.
20 Q. Were they armed?
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 Q. What sorts of arms did they carry?
23 A. Pistols for the most part and rifles.
24 Q. What was the main colour of the uniform, the camouflage uniform they
1 A. That camouflage uniform was multi-coloured. It was camouflage. I do
2 not know about the colours.
3 Q. Were prisoners who were kept in the camp permitted to leave the camp
4 at any time, or was there some special arrangement for this to occur?
5 A. I did not go until that last December 2nd when I first came out.
6 Maybe some people went if they knew somebody. The money was
7 essential. You could go if you had money. So that one of those, one
8 of the guards or somebody who came in whom they knew from the
9 soldiers, from Serbs, would give him a lift. Personally I do not know.
10 I did not have where to go or business to do.
11 Q. What was the population of the prisoners made up of mostly in terms
12 of sex and age?
13 A. I am sorry, I did not quite get it?
14 Q. What was the population of the prisoners of the camp made up of
15 mostly in terms of sex and age?
16 A. They were all ages from infants who were -- they were just saying
17 that an elderly man died from old age over there in the gymnasium, but
18 for the most part women, children, elderly and some youth.
19 Q. Were there many men of military age there and by that I mean from 16
20 to 55 kept in the camp?
21 A. There were, but those were for the most part those who were in the
22 Omarska camp, the Manjaca camp and when they came back, when they got
23 out, I do not know if they had a connection or something and were in
24 Prijedor, were not in Trnopolje when the International Red Cross came
25 and took away all the inmates. Then there were those who managed to
1 survive like myself, my sons and others, but very few young ones.
2 Q. While you were in the camp were prisoners taken out by the guards
3 from time to time that you could see?
4 A. I did not see.
5 Q. Did you ever hear of this happening?
6 A. Yes, when we first arrived, the first day the men were, you were
7 pretending that you are invisible, false, so that you would not be
8 noticed. They were just taken out and killed and I said, "How do you
9 mean?" There were guards. I said, of course, but there all these
10 gardens filled with dead bodies. They were all taken out and killed.
11 Q. While you were in the camp did you on any occasion see Dusko Tadic at
12 the camp?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. When was it that you saw him in the camp?
15 A. The precise date I do not know.
16 Q. Can you give us an approximate date?
17 A. I think somewhere when I came, maybe 10 days later, somewhere around
18 there. I know that it had already started to rain.
19 Q. Where were you on this day that he came to the camp, where were you
20 located at that time?
21 A. I was in a classroom where I was sleeping at the time. It was a
22 cabinet for the physics.
23 Q. What happened?
24 A. An acquaintance of mine came in and was a bit upset and he said,
25 "Down on the road there's Dusko Tadic, he is looking for you." I said
1 "Really?" He said "really." I went. I did not talk to my family or
2 anything. I went down to the road and, indeed, there he was with
3 another man whom I did not know until then.
4 Q. Did you go up to Dusko Tadic?
5 A. Yes, he was standing on the road when I came out of the school, and
6 since it was raining we went and stood under a roof. He said, "I
7 brought this man. He saw your house," he says. In fact this man
8 introduced himself right away and he said his name, I do not remember
9 it, but I think he told me his name and he said: "I am from Kladusa."
10 I said: "Are you really from Kladusa itself?" I do not know if it is
11 from Kladusa or a village next to it. He said: "I live there. I have
12 a house with a top floor. Why don't we swap? If you cannot go back
13 to your house, I can go to your house so that you do not get a barn
14 for a house." For me that was such a notion not to go back. It is
15 not nice to say, but I really thought that when that war start today
16 it would last for one day. So he said: "Well, let me see if I
17 survive. If I survive then we can make a deal."
18 Q. This man whom you say came from Kladusa, is that also known as Velika
20 A. Yes. Yes, Velika Kladusa. I was never in Velika Kladusa. I also
21 heard that there was a Mala Kladusa. I do not know.
22 Q. This man that was with Dusko Tadic, did you understand why it was
23 that he was in Kozarac at this particular point in time?
24 A. I did not know. He told me that he was also driven out or that he
25 escaped from there, something like that.
1 Q. Did you understand him to be a refugee from Velika Kladusa?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you know what nationality he was, this man that spoke to you?
4 A. A Serb.
5 Q. While you were in the camp did you understand that there were a
6 number of refugees from the Velika Kladusa area?
7 A. I did not know that. When I came to the camp from Prijedor I did not
8 budge from there until I went back to Prijedor.
9 Q. But did you subsequently find this out?
10 A. Yes, I found it out later, that from Kladusa, that part between
11 Trnopolje and Kozarac, that it was taken, but part of it was not
12 destroyed by Papuca.
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, we will adjourn until tomorrow at 10
15 (5.30 p.m.).
16 (The court adjourned until the following day).