Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5003




4 Friday, 9th August 1996

5 (10.10 a.m. )


7 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, sometime ago Judge Stephen asked whether the

8 dots on the map represented the houses that were in a particular

9 village and town. Regrettably, we are not able to answer your

10 Honour's question precisely, but what we have done is obtain the

11 legend of the map which indicates that they are houses and so forth

12 and that may assist your Honour. I think the position is that as maps

13 are upgraded, sometimes they put in the additional houses from the

14 aerial photography or however they do it and sometimes they do not.

15 That is why we cannot be precise about that. I tender this, your

16 Honour. Might it be called P79A?

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Prosecutor's 79?

18 MR. NIEMANN: 79 is the map and if that could be called 79A? Could you

19 show it to the Defence?

20 MR. KAY: There is no objection, your Honour.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 79A will be admitted, Prosecution 79A. Mr. Tieger,

22 were you questioning the witness, Mr. Arifagic?

23 MR. TIEGER: That is correct, your Honour.

24 MR. MESUD ARIFAGIC, recalled

25 Examined by MR. TIEGER, continued.

Page 5004

1 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, perhaps the Exhibits which were before the

2 witness when we adjourned can be replaced, 277A and 310, I believe.

3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Arifagic, you are still under the oath that you

4 took yesterday, do you understand that?

5 THE WITNESS [In translation]: Yes.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, you may continue.

7 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour.

8 Q. Mr. Arifagic, before we adjourned yesterday, I believe you had

9 described two occasions during which you saw Dule Tadic in Trnopolje

10 camp. The second occasion was the one which you described when you

11 were outside and he was with Goran Babic. Let me now ask you if you

12 recall another occasion or the next occasion during which you saw Dule

13 Tadic in Trnopolje camp?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Where were you at the time you saw him on that occasion?

16 A. I was waiting to receive food.

17 Q. You have two pictures, two photographs, of Trnopolje camp in front of

18 you. Are you able to see the approximate location where you were at

19 that time shown in either of those photographs?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is that the photograph of the school entrance shown front-on or the

22 photograph with the logs in the right-hand corner?

23 A. This is of the photograph with the logs in it.

24 Q. May 277A be placed on the Elmo then? Mr. Arifagic, can you point out

25 to us your approximate location on that occasion?

Page 5005

1 A. Yes, I was here. I was waiting here to receive food. Here were

2 packages that people were distributing and we were standing lined up

3 one by one here frontally like this, facing the asphalt which links to

4 Trnopolje up to Kozarac. As I was receiving food, Dusan Tadic and

5 Goran Babic in a car went on their way to Kozarac.

6 Q. So when you saw Dule Tadic he was in a car on the road which links

7 Trnopolje to Kozarac?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Where was that car when you first saw it relative to your position?

10 A. The car was moving from the station towards Kozarac.

11 Q. So as you were facing the road, then the car would be coming from

12 your right side, is that correct?

13 A. Yes, from my right, yes.

14 Q. How fast or slow was the car going?

15 A. I should say it was in a second gear. It was not moving fast.

16 Q. Who was driving the car?

17 A. Goran Babic.

18 Q. Where was Dule Tadic sitting?

19 A. He was the co-driver.

20 Q. He was in the passenger seat, in the front portion of the car?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you recall what kind of car it was?

23 A. A police car.

24 Q. As it approached in second gear from the direction of the station,

25 did it then move past the position you were in and continue toward the

Page 5006

1 direction of Kozarac?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. After this occasion was there another occasion on which you saw Dule

4 Tadic in Trnopolje camp?

5 A. Excellent, very near I went past him and we looked one another into

6 the face.

7 Q. Mr. Arifagic, do you recall approximately when that was?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. When was that?

10 A. Could you repeat it, please?

11 Q. When was this occasion when you and Dule Tadic looked one another

12 into the face?

13 A. When we wanted to leave Trnopolje.

14 Q. Do you recall the date that you left Trnopolje?

15 A. The 1st October.

16 Q. Can we place Exhibit 310 on the Elmo, please? Sir, on this

17 photograph can you see the approximate location where Dule Tadic was

18 when you saw him on October 1st?

19 A. Not approximately, but exactly.

20 Q. Can you point out where that is, please?

21 A. That place is this one here. [The witness indicated on the

22 photograph].

23 Q. Was he on the inside of that fence or the outside of that fence?

24 A. He was here, he put his hands like this on the fence and we were

25 coming from there for the buses, so Dule was to my right and he was

Page 5007

1 facing like that, and I was coming like that, and we looked each other

2 into the eyes as we can look one another now, except that we

3 were very close.

4 Q. Do you recall about what time of day that was?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When was that, approximately?

7 A. I think it was about half past 8, since it was, it followed the

8 alphabetical order and my surname begins with an A, so it was the

9 morning, I mean.

10 Q. So you walked down this side walk and directly past Dule Tadic on

11 your way to the bus which took you from Trnopolje?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. After you walked by Dule Tadic, did you then board the bus that was

14 to take you from Trnopolje?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Where did that bus first go?

17 A. As the buses were loaded one by one, we were setting off towards

18 Kozarac.

19 Q. Were you being led by any Serbian authorities or camp officials?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you know or recognise any of those persons who were leading the

22 buses from Trnopolje?

23 A. Yes, they were my colleagues.

24 Q. Who was there?

25 A. Zdravko Torbica and Goran Babic. Goran Babic escorted us only up to

Page 5008

1 Kozarac, and Zdravko Torbica continued on, that is, at the head of the

2 column they went.

3 Q. Were they in any particular kinds of vehicles?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What kind of vehicles were they riding in or driving?

6 A. Goran Babic has, drives a police car. That is the same one he had in

7 Kozarac. Zdravko Torbica drives an armoured vehicle, that is, a PAM

8 which has never been in the police in Prijedor. Such a vehicle did not

9 exist in Prijedor before the war.

10 Q. Sir, do you see Dule Tadic in court today?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you point him out, please, and tell the Court what he is wearing?

13 A. Dule Tadic is sitting down there between two policemen. He is nicely

14 dressed, blue-ish suit, blue-ish shirt, a many coloured tie, clean

15 shaven.

16 Q. That is fine, sir, thank you. May the record reflect the

17 identification of the accused, your Honour?

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, the record will reflect the witness identified

19 the accused.

20 MR. TIEGER: Thank you. Nothing further.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, cross-examination?

22 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.

23 Cross-examined by MR. KAY

24 Q. Mr. Arifagic, I would like to ask you questions first of all about

25 how well you know Dusko Tadic. Were you a friend of his in that you

Page 5009

1 socialised with him?

2 A. I said I knew Dule Tadic and I know him. I was not his close

3 friend. You have two friends. You have house friends, family

4 friends, and friends.

5 Q. You had not been to his house, for instance?

6 A. I was only in front of their house, I remember well, as far as I

7 know, when his father died.

8 Q. But you had not been in his house with him?

9 A. No.

10 Q. He had not been in your house with you?

11 A. No.

12 Q. You appear to have known friends of his that you knew?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You did not spend time in the evenings with him?

15 A. I said it was sometimes.

16 Q. How often is "sometimes"?

17 A. It was not every night. I say sometimes, perhaps before 10 years or

18 maybe before the war, or perhaps for two months, that we socialised,

19 but I would be passing past his house every day.

20 Q. Did you ever drink in his cafe bar?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did you know his brothers?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Which brothers of his did you know?

25 A. Dule had three brothers. They were all older than he. Dule had

Page 5010

1 Stojan, he had Mladen, he had Ljubo. Mladen is in Germany, Ljubo is

2 in Banja Luka and Stojan married a Muslim ages ago, and there were

3 some problems. I know that. Ostoja was saying, "Why is he marrying a

4 Muslim?" but that does not really matter. That is all his family, and

5 father best, as I have said, because we spent a lot of time at

6 meetings.

7 Q. Did you know his brothers rather than Dusko Tadic?

8 A. His brothers were spending less time in Kozarac than Dule.

9 Q. Before the war in Kozarac, can you remember what Dusko Tadic looked

10 like, say, at the beginning of 1992, three months before the war

11 started?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you describe him for us, what his appearance was then?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Could you please do so now for us?

16 A. He had a bit more weight then, and had a small beard, like they wear,

17 and he was not shaven very often. It was not a big beard. It was

18 just unshaven. Many wore it like that. It was ----

19 Q. So it was an appearance of not having shaved rather than wearing a

20 beard?

21 A. As I said, yes.

22 Q. Goran Babic who you have told us that you saw Dusko Tadic with in

23 Trnopolje on several occasions, were you aware of him being the police

24 Commander in Kozarac at about the time you were in Trnopolje?

25 A. I heard that when I came from Omarska to Trnopolje.

Page 5011

1 Q. He previously worked with you in the police station before the

2 conflict?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. On the occasions you saw him in Trnopolje, was he acting or dressed

5 as a policeman?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. What sorts of uniform would Goran Babic have worn as a policeman?

8 A. Goran Babic was always an intelligent guy and skillful and as -- and

9 he was always dressed in a blue police uniform.

10 Q. Was that a plain blue police uniform or a blue camouflage uniform?

11 Can you remember?

12 A. I cannot.

13 Q. The police car that you saw Goran Babic in, was that the Kozarac

14 police car?

15 A. There were such vehicles in Prijedor as well and in the police

16 station in Kozarac. So whether this was a vehicle from Prijedor or

17 Kozarac, I would not know, but they had the same and Omarska and

18 Kozarac and Ljubija and Prijedor, because all the vehicles were being

19 supplied by Prijedor, whether it was a Stojadin or not. But allow me

20 to ask you something?

21 Q. Sorry, sir, you cannot ask me questions, as her Honour will advise

22 you. It is my job to ask you questions.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Only if you do not understand the question, then you

24 can tell Mr. Kay, of course, that you do not understand the question

25 and he will try to rephrase it. But, really, your responsibility is

Page 5012

1 to respond to his questions.

2 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour. [To the witness]: I would like now to

3 turn to the first occasion that you say you saw Dusko Tadic in

4 Trnopolje. Can you remember when it was, what the date was?

5 A. That could have been only after August 20th.

6 Q. So you had been in the camp by then more than two weeks?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You described him wearing camouflage uniform, multicoloured clothes,

9 but what was the colour of that uniform?

10 A. It is a military uniform, it is a green in there and like camouflage.

11 Q. So, definitely not the police blue camouflage uniform?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You had been ill at this time and you were recovering after your

14 experiences in Omarska which is why you were within the building, is

15 that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Were you standing up when you were looking out of the window or were

18 you lying down or sitting down? How were you positioned at the

19 window?

20 A. At that time I was walking by the window.

21 Q. How many people were in Trnopolje camp itself at this time?

22 A. I would not know that.

23 Q. That building where you were staying, did that have many people

24 within it? Was it a crowded building?

25 A. Yes, there were naturally a lot.

Page 5013

1 Q. The position in relation to those guarding the camp at this time,

2 were there many guards?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Were they stationed outside the camp or within the camp?

5 A. The guards were around the perimeter, and who was looking for

6 something, they would come inside.

7 Q. Were you familiar with the guards who were on duty at your camp? Did

8 you recognise them because you were familiar with where they stood

9 and what they did?

10 A. Some of them, yes.

11 Q. From what you describe of seeing Dusko Tadic four times, it seems

12 that you did not see him as a guard at the camp, is that right?

13 A. Could you please repeat the question?

14 Q. It seems from these four occasions that you saw Dusko Tadic, he does

15 not seem to have been working as a guard at the camp, do you agree

16 with that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Who was the Commander of the camp whilst you were there?

19 A. Trnopolje?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. Pero Curguz and, what do I know, those were the men.

22 Q. Did you know Slobodan Kuruzovic?

23 A. Slobodan Kuruzovic, I also said, I was ill those 15 days when I came

24 from Omarska, it forced me to walk, to watch, to see who there was,

25 what there was, to find out where my family was, to find somebody to

Page 5014

1 find that, and even though I could not, I was walking around more than

2 I could, because when I came, whether my wife and children were there,

3 and is there a friend to whom I could, whom I could address, and I

4 said. So I just walked, and I did not have a desire to see anybody,

5 and those who I knew I did not dare approach, but my only goal was to

6 find out where they were.

7 I have not come here to accuse anybody, to judge anybody. I

8 just came here to say the truth, what happened. What I went through

9 and what I know, and nothing -- as I said, nothing but the truth.

10 That is why I am here, and because I walked around Trnopolje and moved

11 around and it was by sheer accident that I saw. I was looking for

12 help for my own family, just find out where my wife and my children

13 were. I had a daughter of 17. I knew what was going on. I just

14 wanted to know whether they were alive.

15 I did not go around. I was not interested who was on guard,

16 but I was interested because of my own family, if my family had been

17 there I would not have been going around. That is what, so accident,

18 that is -- sir, I respect you but I am just telling you why I did

19 this, if you understood me.

20 Q. Thank you very much. If we could look at that picture Exhibit 310

21 which is the school?

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes. Your question was whether he knew about

23 Kuruzovic. I do not know whether it has been responded to. Do you

24 want to follow that up?

25 MR. KAY: It seemed to me in part but, your Honour, I will move on. That

Page 5015

1 is a matter. [To the witness]: If we look at the photograph, Exhibit

2 310 -- have you got that before you -- which is the front part of the

3 school? If it could be put on the monitor for you so that everyone

4 can just see what we are looking at.

5 You indicated to us yesterday where you were standing when you

6 say you saw Dusko Tadic. It seemed that you saw him walking to the

7 left of the picture between the trees that we see in the photograph?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The window that you are looking from is a window in a part of the

10 building that is set back from the two wings on the left-hand side and

11 right-hand side, is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You say he was walking at the time?

14 A. I said that he passed from, by my side, that is, maybe he did walk

15 there, I do not know, but I saw him when he passed. You just look and

16 you see and that is it.

17 Q. So you did not see him for very long?

18 A. Maybe I did not even want to.

19 Q. When you were looking out of that window, you did not communicate in

20 any way to him, or you say you just observed the fact of him passing

21 by?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Are you able to estimate the distance from that window to the place

24 where you say you saw him?

25 A. I was not paying attention to that.

Page 5016

1 Q. Were other people around you at the time in that part of the building

2 when you looked out the window?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Can I move on to the second time you say you saw him? This was on an

5 occasion which was still within the scene of this photograph, you were

6 sitting on the raised level to the right of the entrance in the middle

7 of the school, is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The area that Goran Babic and Dusko Tadic were in is further over to

10 the left of this photograph, is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Where the logs were in the other photograph Exhibit, I think it is,

13 277?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Again that is quite some distance away from where you were?

16 A. I did not measure it so I would not know.

17 Q. At the time were other people around you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Where you indicate you saw them, it is towards the corner of the

20 camp?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Perhaps if we can now put that other photograph on the overhead

23 projector? Thank you, Mr. Bos. Again it seems you were not observing

24 the two people for very long?

25 A. Not for long.

Page 5017

1 Q. Because, as you said yesterday, you did not want to see them, so you

2 left?

3 A. Yes, I did not dare ask them anything.

4 Q. Can you remember when this was, what date it was in terms of the

5 length of your stay in Trnopolje, when it would have been?

6 A. Date, no, I do not remember.

7 Q. Dusko Tadic at this time, can you remember how he was dressed?

8 A. The same clothes.

9 Q. So, again definitely not a blue camouflage uniform. It would have

10 been a green camouflage uniform, is that right?

11 A. Yes, the camouflage, military, grey-ish uniform.

12 Q. That is one which has predominantly an olive green colour within it,

13 is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Again the third time you see him, that is with Goran Babic as well?

16 A. I said, I told you what my goal was. I was not going around the camp

17 looking who was there. I just wanted to share with somebody where my

18 family was. That is how I walked around. I observed, is there

19 anybody whom I know who was a friend, to whom I could trust, even

20 though I was ill then. That was my only goal.

21 Q. Your stay in Trnopolje continued until October 1st?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. The only other occasion is on the day when you are leaving and he is

24 by the fence of the camp?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5018

1 Q. Was he leaning against the fence? If we look at 310, that is the

2 other photograph, if we can just put that on the screen? Where this

3 photograph would have been taken is in the road, is that right?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. This road goes in the direction, on the left-hand side towards the

6 railway station, is that right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. On the right-hand side up to Kozarac?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Was he on the road side of the fence or on the other side of the

11 fence?

12 A. Dule stood here, that is, exactly by the fence watching who is

13 passing by and going on to the buses.

14 Q. How many buses were in the road at this time?

15 A. I could not know at that time.

16 Q. Were a large number of people at this time moving from Trnopolje?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. It seems Goran Babic was with him again, but it was as a form of

19 escort for the convoy that was moving?

20 A. Yes, up to Kozarac, as I said. Then he remained in the intersection

21 of Kozarac. I was on the second bus and Babic stood by the road

22 looking at Kozarac and we continued on towards Prijedor.

23 Q. It seems then that he was acting in his position as Commander of the

24 police watching the convoy go, would that be right?

25 A. As far as I heard, yes.

Page 5019

1 MR. KAY: Thank you. That is all I ask.


3 Re-Examined by MR. TIEGER

4 Q. I think just one question, your Honour. Mr. Arifagic, after your bus

5 was loaded with the prisoners, did it leave the area of Trnopolje camp

6 and go in the direction of Kozarac, then wait for other buses to be

7 loaded and then joined your bus before the whole convoy left for

8 Prijedor and ultimately Karlovac?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. TIEGER: That is all, your Honour.


12 MR. KAY: Nothing arises, your Honour.

13 Examined by the Court

14 JUDGE STEPHEN: Witness, I wonder if you can tell me something about how

15 you got food at Trnopolje. There were no regular meals supplied week

16 after week. How did you get food there -- not only you but the other

17 prisoners?

18 A. The food, until the Red Cross started issuing packets, that was

19 better, but before then, until they started distributing, I do not

20 know what I found to eat. When we arrived to Trnopolj

21 from Omarska and people got out of the camp when they were going for

22 food, some of them would not come back. Then we did not even go to

23 look for food.

24 Q. But during all those weeks you were there, you must have had some

25 need for food. How did you get it? Where did it come from, if it was

Page 5020

1 not supplied by the camp authorities?

2 A. I just said, the Red Cross was distributing packets. That one packet

3 was good for 24 hours.

4 Q. That was all through the time you were in Trnopolje there were Red

5 Cross parcels?

6 A. That was for me upstairs. Downstairs, who were healthier, who were

7 down by the older, they had a cold room or something, but those were

8 lines who were able to stand for three, four hours and maybe they got

9 some of that water, I do not know. I do not know what.

10 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger? Mr. Kay?

12 MR. KAY: No thank you.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to Mr. Arifagic being permanently

14 excused?

15 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Arifagic, you are permanently excused. You are

17 free to leave. Thank you for coming.

18 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, thank you very much for inviting me to say the

19 truth and nothing but the truth and, I said already, I did not come

20 here to accuse or to judge, only to tell the truth, what happened,

21 what I went through and what I know, and thank you very much for

22 inviting me.

23 (The witness withdrew)


25 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I call Bahrija Denic.

Page 5021


2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Denic, would you please take that oath that is

3 being handed to you?

4 THE WITNESS [In translation]: Solemn declaration. I solemnly declare

5 that I will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

6 truth.

7 (The witness was sworn)

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you sir. You may be seated.

9 Examined by MR. NIEMANN

10 Q. Would you state your full name, please?

11 A. Bahrija Denic.

12 Q. What is your date of birth?

13 A. 1st June '54.

14 Q. Where were you born?

15 A. In Kozarac.

16 Q. Where did you attend school?

17 A. In Kozarac.

18 Q. In what part of the town of Kozarac did you live for most of the time

19 you were there up until the war?

20 A. As I have said, I was born in '54. I lived in the lower part of the

21 town towards Trnopolje, the place, the locality is called Suhi Brod.

22 In '68 we moved towards Kozarac, that is, some 500 or 600 metres

23 towards Kozarac, from the centre about one kilometre.

24 Q. Where did you work?

25 A. I worked first for a construction company, Put, Sarajevo. Then I went

Page 5022

1 to Slovenia. From 1980 I worked in Croatia for Sava Sunja company.

2 Q. Did you work for this company up until 1991?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you return back to Kozarac on a regular basis when you were

5 working in Croatia?

6 A. I did.

7 Q. In fact, did you maintain your family home in Kozarac all during this

8 period?

9 A. I had a house, my wife, my family.

10 Q. They all lived in Kozarac when you were working in Croatia?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you do your military service from 1973 to '74 in Serbia, in

13 Macedonia?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Is your ethnic group Muslim?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you work up until the war in Croatia started in 1991 and from

18 that time onwards were you sent home?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When you came back to Kozarac did you work in that period from the

21 end of 1991 through to May 1992 with a telephone company in the

22 Kozarac area?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were you in Kozarac when it was attacked on 24th May 1992?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5023

1 Q. Did you and your family proceed to a nearby village called Softic?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Then did you return back to your home on 26th May in Kozarac?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you stay there until the voluntary surrender of the people of

6 Kozarac on 27th May 1992?

7 A. I was some two kilometres away from my home, and later on a group of

8 us, of some 150 to 180 persons, had to surrender.

9 Q. Where was it, what place did you surrender?

10 A. We surrendered in Kozarac at the intersection

11 Kozarac/Trnopolje/Prijedor/Banja Luka. Next to the petrol station

12 there is a bus stop there.

13 Q. Who did you surrender to?

14 A. We surrendered to the army, the police, and there were all sorts of

15 colours, insignia, clothes.

16 Q. Was it a combination of the military and the police, the people that

17 were there when you surrendered?

18 A. There were both.

19 Q. What were they doing with the people when you surrendered?

20 A. When we surrendered they ordered us to separate men from women, and

21 men below -- males below the age of 16. I and other men moved to one

22 side, and women and children went to the other. We waited there for

23 one hour, perhaps a little more, until buses arrived and we were

24 ordered to board them. As I was boarding, I asked one, he was a

25 policeman, "If we are not going together, women and men, may I take my

Page 5024

1 father to the women, since my father was of a very advanced age", and

2 they allowed me to.

3 Q. So, the women and your father and others were separated from yourself

4 and were you then placed on a bus with the other men?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Where did the buses then go?

7 A. The buses headed for Prijedor and we had reached the Keraterm

8 factory, and we stayed there on the buses until other buses formed to

9 move on, and where we were to go, I did not know.

10 Q. When you arrived at Keraterm, did you get out of the buses or did you

11 stay on the buses?

12 A. We stayed on the buses.

13 Q. How long did you stay there for?

14 A. It could be two hours, perhaps a little longer, but around two hours.

15 Q. After that then did the buses move off again?

16 A. After that the buses went through Prijedor and through Tomasica to

17 Omarska.

18 Q. When you arrived in the Omarska camp, were you detained in the

19 cafeteria building?

20 A. I was, I and many other inhabitants of Kozarac, we were told to enter

21 a room, a place which was in that building as part of the cafeteria,

22 and there we spent from Wednesday evening until Friday some time in

23 the afternoon, and after I was interrogated I was transferred to

24 another room which was above the dump truck garage. I went up some

25 stairs and I and other people who had been interrogated were there.

Page 5025

1 Q. When you were in the Omarska camp were you beaten or otherwise

2 mistreated yourself?

3 A. Every day when we went to eat, there were blows, they were hurrying

4 us up, "Eat as fast as you can, enter as fast you can, go out as fast

5 as you can". As we would walk back to our rooms, we would be beaten

6 with the rifle butts, with batons, with all sorts of things.

7 Q. Apart from these beatings which were singled out to most of the

8 prisoners as they attended their meals and so forth, were you ever

9 specifically beaten or abused on any one particular occasion?

10 A. Not in Omarska, they did at Manjaca. In Omarska they took others

11 out, ill-treated them, beat them. People died because of severe

12 injuries.

13 Q. Did you know anyone in the Omarska camp who was taken from the camp

14 and who has not been seen since?

15 A. I knew for certain, if I had a list now, but I can vouch that I knew

16 100 or, perhaps, 200 individuals who were taken out and are still

17 missing. We have heard stories that they had been exchanged, that

18 they were swapped in Bihac, but there is no information and there are

19 my relatives, my family, my neighbours among them.

20 Q. When did you leave the Omarska camp? What date was that,

21 approximately?

22 A. From the Omarska camp we went on 6th or 7th of August and on the 1st

23 August my brother died in the Omarska camp.

24 Q. Where did you go to from Omarska?

25 A. When we got on to the buses, a camouflage soldier told us to look the

Page 5026

1 other way from the driver, so that we could not really orient myself

2 where they were taking us, but throughout the time we had to sing, and

3 they beat those first ones. We saw their injuries later on, and later

4 on we learned that we had arrived in Manjaca. But before that in Han

5 Kola, our buses were stopped and they showed us to the locals saying,

6 "Here come the Turks. Now is your opportunity to take your

7 vengeance".

8 Q. Did anything happen to you?

9 A. I and my son were taken out from the bus at Manjaca and beat me on

10 one side of the bus and my son on the other. How long it took, I do

11 not know. I only know that at some point they ordered us to go back

12 into the buses. I did not really think about myself so much. I was

13 trying to hear what they were doing to my child and how he behaved.

14 When I saw that he was alive I felt better immediately. Although

15 later, for five or six days, I was lying down in those stables, in

16 that barn, where they kept us and I survived even that. They did not

17 kill me.

18 Q. Did any one guard ever attack you with a knife when you arrived at

19 the Manjaca camp?

20 A. I was attacked and cut my back and carved a cross at Manjaca. That

21 was that same evening.

22 Q. Do you still have the scar from that cross that was cut into you?

23 A. I do. It is still visible a little.

24 Q. How long did you stay in the camp at Manjaca for?

25 A. I stayed until the 23rd August.

Page 5027

1 Q. Where did you go then?

2 A. After that we were called out up there at Manjaca and did not tell us

3 where we were going. As we were going by in groups of five holding

4 hands, I saw also there was a group of men next to the road with their

5 backs on us. We got there and they loaded us on to the buses and we

6 set off. When we arrived in Kozarac, I saw as we went past Omarska to

7 Kozarac, and then I was only looking whether it would turn off to

8 Trnopolje or go on to Prijedor. They turned towards Trnopolje and

9 then I realised we were going to Trnopolje.

10 Q. So when you arrived at Trnopolje camp, where were you placed?

11 A. In Trnopolje, when I arrived there, I spent the night first in a

12 hall, in the old centre, and then the next day when I came out of

13 there, they allowed me to wash myself. Some relatives gave me some

14 little food to eat and then I moved to the new school upstairs to a

15 room next to the gymnasium, and I was there until we went to Karlovac.

16 Q. Do you know where the relatives had got the food from that they gave

17 you?

18 A. My relatives, the food they got, I cannot tell you exactly, but I

19 guess they managed to get some food, whoever managed to.

20 Q. How long did you stay in Trnopolje camp?

21 A. I stayed there until the 1st September.

22 Q. During that period were you given food at the camp by the guards?

23 A. No.

24 Q. How did you get food? What did you do for that?

25 A. In the beginning food was brought by a van, I do not know who it was,

Page 5028

1 and that we who had come from Manjaca, some said there, "Well first we

2 must feed you a little bit and then you will go", but that was very

3 little. It would not fill a tooth. Then I went out to the first

4 houses where there were quince trees and I would make a kind of tea

5 and that is what I ate and drank.

6 Q. So you went out and picked fruit off the trees to supplement your

7 diet?

8 A. Yes. There was still fruit when I arrived from Manjaca. There was a

9 quince tree. After that, an international organisation came and

10 registered all those people in the camp, and then they started giving

11 us out those packages, parcels and things.

12 Q. When you were in Trnopolje camp did you ever see men taken out in

13 groups to, allegedly, perform work duty?

14 A. I did not see it with my own eyes because I arrived from Manjaca at a

15 later stage. Once I did see an incident when one Cavic was looking

16 for someone to go buy plums for him, and people avoided it and I did

17 not go to work anywhere.

18 Q. Do you know why people were avoiding this, avoiding being taken out

19 of the camp?

20 A. Well, because it was dangerous, because one called Hase went out and

21 did not come back, he and two more, and probably it happened before my

22 time, so people must have known that.

23 Q. Do you know the accused Dule Tadic?

24 A. I do.

25 Q. For how long have you known him?

Page 5029

1 A. We, I have known him for some 20 years.

2 Q. Did you know him from the time when you went to school?

3 A. Yes, except that he was younger, so he was in a lower grade than I

4 was.

5 Q. When you lived in the town of Kozarac did you see him from time to

6 time?

7 A. Yes, when I would go to Kozarac, to the centre, to the marketplace, I

8 would see him.

9 Q. Do you know where the Tadic family lived in Kozarac?

10 A. Yes, I know where his father had a house and I know where he had a

11 house.

12 Q. Do you know what Dule Tadic did in Kozarac immediately prior to the

13 war for a living?

14 A. Well, he had his restaurant and I presume that is what he made his

15 living on.

16 Q. Did you know his parents, his mother and father?

17 A. Yes, I knew his father and mother too, but not as -- well, I could

18 not say that I knew her as my neighbours, neighbours with whom we

19 visited, but everybody knew them in Kozarac.

20 Q. Did you know whether or not Dule Tadic was interested in sport?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In what type of sport, in particular?

23 A. Karate.

24 Q. When did you see Tadic prior to the war, the commencement of the

25 war, in Kozarac in May '92, the last time you saw him?

Page 5030

1 A. The last time it was on Thursday.

2 Q. That is the Thursday before the Sunday attack, is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Where did you see him on this occasion?

5 A. We met in the street, on the road leading to Kozarac from

6 intersection Prijedor/Banja Luka.

7 Q. When you say you met, did you actually meet with him or did you just

8 see him on that occasion?

9 A. Well, we just walked past one another. He was walking down one side

10 of the road and I was on the other.

11 Q. Did you acknowledge him or speak to him or did you just observe him?

12 A. No, I did not talk. I nodded in greeting.

13 Q. Do you recall whether on that occasion he was dressed in civilian

14 clothes or in a uniform?

15 A. Civilian.

16 Q. When was the next time after that occasion that you saw Dule Tadic,

17 can you remember?

18 A. I saw him when I was coming out from the camp at Trnopolje and as I

19 was boarding the buses going to Karlovac.

20 Q. What was the date, what was the date when you saw him?

21 A. It was the 1st October.

22 Q. About what time of the day did you see him? Can you remember?

23 A. Well, it could have been sometime around midday, around noon, when we

24 were boarding buses. As we were boarding them in groups, there were

25 very many buses, and they requested strict discipline when boarding

Page 5031

1 buses.

2 Q. Where was Dule Tadic when you saw him on this occasion when you were

3 boarding the buses?

4 A. As I was boarding the bus, he was standing to the left, perhaps four,

5 six, seven metres away, on the left-hand side next to the fence of the

6 school, he was standing there, he and two more.

7 Q. Can you recall how he was dressed on this occasion?

8 A. He was dressed in a sort of a police uniform, grey.

9 Q. Did he have any head wear that you could see?

10 A. No, he did not.

11 Q. Could you see whether or not he was armed on that occasion?

12 A. No, I could not see that, because as you were called out you had to

13 go out and board the bus, so that one could not really look around

14 that much.

15 Q. Did he see you, do you think, when you were coming out to board the

16 bus?

17 A. That I cannot say, maybe yes, maybe no.

18 Q. Mr. Denic, I am going to ask you, if you would, please, to look

19 around the courtroom and tell me if you see the person you know and

20 recognise as Dule Tadic?

21 A. I do. That is him over there.

22 Q. Would you please tell us how he is dressed and where he is located in

23 the courtroom?

24 A. He is located to the left between two policemen. He has a blue suit,

25 a blue shirt, a tie.

Page 5032

1 MR. NIEMANN: Might the record reflect, your Honour?

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, the record will reflect that the witness

3 identified the accused.

4 MR. NIEMANN: I have no further questions.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, do you have cross-examination?

6 MR. KAY: Just one question, your Honour.

7 Cross-examined by MR. KAY

8 Q. The uniform that you recollect Dusko Tadic wearing on 1st October

9 when you were boarding the buses to go to Karlovac at Trnopolje, was

10 that basically the colour blue?

11 A. Not blue, strictly speaking. It was like the police used to wear in

12 the then Yugoslavia, approximately that colour.

13 Q. Does that have blue in the colours?

14 A. Well, not blue, blue. It is a -- there is a brown-ish blue.

15 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I will not ask a third question. I asked two.

16 That is all I ask.

17 Examined by the Court

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Denic, was it a camouflage uniform or was it a

19 solid ----

20 A. No, not camouflage, not a camouflage, like the policemen used to wear

21 before.

22 Q. A solid colour?

23 A. One colour, yes, yes, yes, one colour.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Mr. Niemann?

25 MR. NIEMANN: No, I have nothing further in re-examination, your Honour.

Page 5033


2 Further cross-examined by MR. KAY

3 MR. KAY: I just have one question now following on. [To the witness]:

4 Was it the winter police uniform, a serge blue?

5 A. No, no, because it was still a warm month.

6 MR. KAY: That is all I ask.


8 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mr. Denic being

10 permanently excused?

11 MR. KAY: No objection.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Denic, you are permanently excused. You are free

13 to leave. Thank you for coming. We will stand in recess for 20

14 minutes.

15 (11.30 a.m.)

16 (Short adjournment)

17 (11.50 a.m.)


19 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour. Your Honours, just before I call

20 the next witness, witness No. 72 on the list indicated to me this

21 morning that he would like limited protective measures, namely, that

22 his face be distorted on the television screen and that he be assigned

23 a pseudonym. Other than that, he would just give his evidence in open

24 court.

25 I think I have the latest list, your Honours. The one I am

Page 5034

1 reading from is 7th August 1996. It is No. 72. I have discussed this

2 with the Defence, your Honours. We will file a motion at lunch time,

3 but of course he is expected to be the witness after the next witness

4 that I am about to call. What I think we will do is change the order

5 around and call

6 73 ahead of 72, that is, Samir Hodzic we will call after the next

7 witness. I should indicate at this stage that we are not calling

8 witness 71 as it appears on the list.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 72 will be the next one after the next one?

10 MR. NIEMANN: Yes.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: But you are omitting 71?

12 MR. NIEMANN: 71 is being omitted. I should say at this stage 74 is not

13 going to be called.

14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 74 will not be called?

15 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour. So the order will be 70, 73 and 72. We

16 will file the motion at lunch-time in relation to 72.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to the request regarding

18 witness No. 72 on the witness list, Mr. Kay?

19 MR. KAY: Mr. Niemann has been good enough to explain it to me this

20 morning. Of course, the testimony of the witness will still be able

21 to be heard and so it is merely a question of image to which we do not

22 object.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: And the pseudonym, no objection?

24 MR. KAY: No objection.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The request will be granted. If we receive the

Page 5035

1 motion in time, we will enter a written order before the witness; if

2 not, we will proceed with the witness's face distortion and pseudonym.

3 MR. NIEMANN: If it please your Honour. Your Honour, there is another

4 matter. I tender, pursuant to the provisions of Rule 70 of the Rules,

5 documents in relation to the camp at Trnopolje. We have also made

6 copies of these, one each for your Honours. They are not the colour

7 copies. They are black and white copies. We will endeavour to obtain

8 colour copies and substitute them at a later stage. If I might tender

9 those, your Honour? The original is the colour copy.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What subsection of Rule 70?

11 MR. NIEMANN: It is (C), your Honour, subsection (C).

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: This is in connection with the next witness we will

13 be hearing?

14 MR. NIEMANN: I will show it to the next witness, your Honours. My

15 understanding of Rule 70 is it seems you do not necessarily tender it

16 through a witness is the way it seems to operate.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Does it relate to this next witness's testimony.

18 MR. NIEMANN: The next witness will be shown the Exhibits, your Honour.


20 MR. NIEMANN: I think, for ease of reference, your Honours, it is probably

21 better if we refer to it as Exhibit 311A, B and C; A being the map of

22 2nd August 1992, B being 13th August 1992 and C being 7th September

23 1992.

24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there an objection from the Defence? Mr. Orie?

25 MR. ORIE: We have just got copies from the Prosecution, your Honour, and

Page 5036

1 we have some difficulties with these documents as to their accuracy.

2 So I do not know how to deal with that, but if we are under Rule

3 70(C), and if we are not convinced that these are accurate documents,

4 then the Court "may not order either party to produce additional

5 evidence received from the person". I do not know exactly what the

6 consequences are. I would like to discuss it first before we finally

7 -----

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I believe we have received another exhibit, you did

9 not designate it though, being offered under 70(C), but did we not

10 receive another exhibit signed by the same person who is indicated on

11 this letter?

12 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: If you are going to question the witness, let us see

14 where we are. At that point we can admit it provisionally, subject to

15 your challenging its authenticity. Is that what you wish to

16 ascertain?

17 MR. ORIE: If this is shown to any witness and if any questions are put

18 to him on this material when it is not inaccurate in our view, of

19 course, we would like to know where it comes from and how it has been

20 created, etc. etc. We have not been able to analyse it properly. We

21 have only had a glance at it and we found some inconsistencies with

22 our photographic material we made at the spot.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: As I understand the Prosecutor, he will discuss this

24 Exhibit with the witness, but of course this witness will not be able

25 to vouch for its authenticity. So, if you need time to verify its

Page 5037

1 authenticity, maybe we can just admit it provisionally, subject to a

2 challenge that you may have at a later time and, depending upon that

3 challenge and how we will rule on that challenge, then strike the

4 testimony and the exhibit.

5 MR. ORIE: I think that would be a good solution because we do not know

6 whether the inaccuracies are relevant or not.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. We will handle it that way. Would you call

8 your next witness, please, Mr. Niemann?

9 MR. NIEMANN: Yes. Your Honour, the Prosecution calls Eniz Besic.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Then 311A, B and C will be admitted, subject to that

11 challenge, Mr. Orie.

12 MR. ENIZ BESIC, called.

13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you please take the oath that has been

14 given to you?

15 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak the

16 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

17 (The witness was sworn)

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated.

19 Examined by MR. NIEMANN

20 Q. Mr. Besic, what is your full name?

21 A. My name is Eniz Besic.

22 Q. Your date of birth?

23 A. I was born 22nd October -- November [sorry] 1946.

24 Q. Where were you born?

25 A. I was born in Kozarac, that is, in Besici, one kilometre from the

Page 5038

1 centre of Kozarac.

2 Q. Where did you attend your primary school?

3 A. In Kozarac.

4 Q. Did you do your secondary school in Prijedor?

5 A. Yes, in Prijedor.

6 Q. Where did you live for the most part of your life leading up to the

7 war in 1992?

8 A. I spent all my life on my property, in my house, in Besici.

9 Q. Where is Besici? In what direction is Besici from the centre of the

10 town of Kozarac?

11 A. That is towards Mrakovica, the left hill, that means the north, north

12 of Kozarac, one kilometre adjoining a settlement so that it stops

13 about 1.5 kilometres. So from Kozarac towards Mrakovica, that would

14 be on the left-hand side.

15 Q. What was your occupation up until the commencement of the war?

16 A. I was a professional driver.

17 Q. Did you drive a vehicle at the Ljubija mine?

18 A. Yes, I drove a truck which supplied food for the kitchen and such.

19 Q. Did you do your military service from 1966 to '67?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you do that in Croatia?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. What is your nationality?

24 A. I am a Bosniak of Islamic faith.

25 Q. How long did you keep working for up until the commencement of the

Page 5039

1 war, how long before the commencement of the war did you continue to

2 work?

3 A. I do not understand the question. How long did I work for the

4 company and up until when, prior to the war? Could you please repeat

5 the question? How much in terms of years of service that I had or

6 when did I stop before the war started?

7 Q. When did you stop before the war started?

8 A. I stopped working a week before the outbreak of the war, because the

9 Serbs put up their check points on the road between Kozarac and

10 Prijedor and they were checking all the IDs, all Muslims. Then one

11 day they turned back all the Muslims and they had no opportunity to go

12 to work and then I was turned back too. I called, the phones were

13 still working, so that I called my boss and I told him that I could

14 not come to work and he replied, "Stay home and I will treat you as if

15 you were on vacation".

16 Q. Were you in Kozarac when it was attacked on 24th May 1992?

17 A. Yes, I was in front of my house.

18 Q. Approximately, what time of the day was it when the attack started?

19 A. It was, I believe, about 1 o'clock in the afternoon, 1.00, 1.20,

20 around 1 o'clock.

21 Q. Did you initially seek shelter in the basement of your house during

22 the course of the attack?

23 A. Yes, with my family and some neighbours. We all took shelter because

24 the shelling had started.

25 Q. Then later did you go into the forest?

Page 5040

1 A. Yes, after we saw that the Muslim villages were starting to go, they

2 started to burn one by one, and we got information that Chetniks

3 started slaughtering everyone, myself and all my neighbours went to

4 the forest to look to save ourselves.

5 Q. Some days later, on 27th May, did you surrender?

6 A. Yes, we also had information that it would be good that we

7 surrendered because they started to shell the forest as well where the

8 civilians are. There were some casualties there so we did not know

9 where to go, at home or at the forest, and all that was remained --

10 had remained was to collect women and children and to go to the

11 Chetniks.

12 Q. When you surrendered did you have with you a white flag?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Where did you go to in order to surrender?

15 A. We started down our village, down our road, towards Kozarac, to the

16 centre, where other columns from other directions were joining in

17 there. So that at a bridge called Mutnik where the warehouse was, we

18 had our first encounter with Chetniks, that is, the Serb Army.

19 Q. Did the Serb soldiers then start to walk beside the column?

20 A. Yes, they started to walk. Before the meeting point, before the

21 bridge across the river, I saw a trailer, a tractor, which was parked

22 which was covered with blankets. Myself and my neighbour came over.

23 It was with another tractor. It was sitting on the road and there

24 were a lot of dead bodies, corpses. There were female corpses. A day

25 before, a shell hit the column and then they loaded them up, so that I

Page 5041

1 could see with my own eyes that trailer, I do not know how many, but

2 there were five, six, seven. They were loaded up like logs. There

3 were a number of women there. That was my first encounter with

4 casualties.

5 Q. Where did you go to with this column?

6 A. We went with the column to Prijedor. They separated us. Women and

7 children were travelling on the left side of the road, the highway

8 Banja Luka/Prijedor, and men went on the right-hand side towards

9 Prijedor, and that is how the column was moving. But they were

10 shooting as if somebody was attacking us, but that was only to

11 intimidate us, obviously, the civilians, men and children and women.

12 So they would order us, command us, and we would have to lie down.

13 The first bus stop was called Limenka. We had to lie down in

14 the field, in the ditch, and then I had bad luck to lie down next to a

15 corpse. It was a civilian. Somebody recognised him, who it was, and

16 I know who it was but I do not want -- I would not like to mention his

17 name. Perhaps his family is still hoping that he is alive but,

18 unfortunately, he was lying dead in that ditch.

19 Q. The translation of your answer starts: "We went with the column to

20 Prijedor". Is it correct that you went in the direction of Prijedor?

21 You did not walk all the way to Prijedor from Kozarac?

22 A. That is right.

23 Q. For about how far did you walk towards Prijedor?

24 A. That was called Ziko's restaurant. That was also a bus stop. Since

25 I am a driver, I think it was four to five kilometres, the distance,

Page 5042

1 between Kozarac and what we walked -- the distance that we walked.

2 There the buses started arriving, and they were loading, first, women

3 and children and then we -- then the men came and we were put on the

4 buses and taken to Prijedor.

5 Q. Before you were put upon the buses, were the Serb soldiers searching

6 people?

7 A. Yes, twice. The search was first when they were separating us from

8 our spouses and our children. That was the first search. Then the

9 second search was when we were boarding buses. Everybody had to

10 spread their arms and somebody would get hit. They would curse Alija

11 or mother or something, and they took everything out, even the nail

12 clippers were not left. They took my wallet, money. Then I asked him

13 to give me back my documents, personal documents, my driver's licence.

14 I recognised a colleague, another driver, a Serb, and he -- I

15 asked him whether we could go back because I knew where my wallet was

16 thrown away by a Serb soldier. I told him I did not care about the

17 money, but I wanted the documents at least, because I may need them,

18 that I could say who I was and that I was not guilty. He laughed to

19 that and he said, "You will not need them, you will not need

20 documents". That was a bit unclear to me and then it was clear as if

21 it had been planned that we would be liquidated, if I did not need

22 documents, I do not know why else.

23 Q. Where did you go in the bus?

24 A. We started going towards Prijedor in buses to the so-called Cirkin

25 Polje which is a suburb of Prijedor. Then they turned left towards

Page 5043

1 the silo. Since I knew all those roads, I knew where we were going.

2 Then they turned to the then old road which was going towards

3 Trnopolje which, sort of, followed the railroad tracks, but we had no

4 opportunity to watch, because we had to have our heads bowed with our

5 hands on top of the -- but I could, sort of, I had a sense of where we

6 were going because I knew all those places.

7 Q. Did the bus subsequently arrive at the Trnopolje camp?

8 A. Yes, it arrived and they ordered us to get off.

9 Q. When you got off the bus at the camp, approximately what time of the

10 day was this, can you remember?

11 A. That was already -- it was past, it was at the end of the day.

12 Q. The day was 27th May 1992, the same as day as you surrendered, is

13 that right?

14 A. Correct, I remember that date. It was a Wednesday, 27th May, when we

15 disembarked. I saw a lot of people, a lot of civilians. When we got

16 off the bus, then they started spraying rounds of bullets and I think

17 it was also a form of intimidation so we had to lie down. They said

18 that ours were shooting. I do not know who the "ours" were. We were

19 civilians. We had no weapons. Then they started cursing and they

20 said, "It is yours that are shooting. Lie down". So there were

21 tractors, there were trailers. Then we lain underneath until they

22 ordered us to get back up, like the danger was over.

23 Q. When you got to the camp were you then reunited with your family?

24 A. Yes, there by accident I found my spouse and my younger son who was

25 then 15 years of age. He was lucky to have left with his mother, my

Page 5044

1 wife, and we all were reunited there.

2 Q. Were you allowed to stay together or were you separated again from

3 your wife and younger son?

4 A. They separated us again, so that my wife and some other women and

5 children were taken outside of the camp to the houses that they said

6 were also a part of the camp and were under their control. So that it

7 would be better for them to be there than to be with all -- with this

8 crowd of people there.

9 Q. Where were you taken?

10 A. Myself, the first two or maybe three nights, I do not know, I

11 remained and I slept under a truck, under a tractor. We had to make

12 do, as best we could, under the trailers, the tractor. Then we found a

13 spot in the cinema theatre, that was the old dom, because we figured

14 that it was safer than outside. There was a lot of shooting and the

15 bullets were flying into the trailer under which we were sleeping, but

16 then we got inside and it was full, there were a lot of small

17 children, babies. They were crying all night long, so that that too

18 was terrible, but a bit safer than outside.

19 Q. Did you have your two elder sons with you during this time?

20 A. Yes, both my sons. We never separated. Wherever I went, they did.

21 I found them some crates, some plastic beer and juice crates and they

22 were lying on those crates and I was lying on the concrete, so I

23 arranged that for them. There was a Coca-Cola crate. It was a bit

24 more comfortable. That is where they slept.

25 Q. Approximately, how many people can you estimate were at the camp when

Page 5045

1 you arrived on 27th May?

2 A. All total within the camp, there were a lot of people. Later, when we

3 were the fewest remained, when we were registered by the International

4 Red Cross, we were of 1600. That was the low number, but when we

5 first arrived there were several thousands, maybe 3,000 or 4,000 in

6 the camp.

7 Q. When you arrived at the camp, was it set up as a camp? I mean, were

8 there fences around it? Were there guards, checkpoints? Can you

9 describe how it was organised?

10 A. There were guards. There were checkpoints. There were no fences.

11 There were no wires at first, but there were guards. There was

12 military. There was a lot of shooting, that was intimidation, and

13 the fence was put up later. They were putting it up, taking it down.

14 But at first it was beehive, everything, there were men and women and

15 elderly men and all ages. They were all there. Sick were coming too.

16 They were carrying them in wheelbarrows, the immobile people, really

17 old. So, at the beginning it was pretty unorganised. What they did,

18 they were patrolling around the road and they were shooting,

19 intimidating, so that the people would not flee. They were also

20 calling people out. They were looking for people. There were lists

21 that were made. That was in the first days.

22 Q. The guards at the camp, do you know whether they were attached to the

23 military or the police or was it some other organisation, did you

24 know?

25 A. There were regular soldiers of theirs, some reserve soldiers. There

Page 5046

1 were also police when there was something, some curfew or they were

2 bringing somebody, then they brought reinforcements, then they would

3 have military and civilian police arriving. If there would be a

4 normal day without, how should I put it, something more interesting in

5 terms of comings and goings, then there were the regular Serbian Army,

6 dressed in their regular uniforms and those were present the most and

7 they were keeping guard.

8 Q. During your time in the Trnopolje camp, were you interrogated?

9 A. Yes, several times I went to interrogation.

10 Q. On the first time you were interrogated, where did they conduct the

11 interrogation?

12 A. The first time I happened to be outside there was a civilian inmate

13 taking along a Serb soldier. This Serb soldier had a sheet of paper

14 with my name on it, and then my brothers and my one of my nephews, so

15 I saw a few names written on it. This neighbour of mine, he pointed

16 with his finger at me and said, "This is that Besic". He told me,

17 "Would you come with me?" and I said, "Yes" because I saw that he was

18 carrying a rifle and, as we were moving among the civilians, among the

19 inmates, we moved towards the centre, towards this hall, and he asked

20 me ,"Where is your rifle?" and swore at my mother and said, "Where is

21 your rifle? Where did you hide it?" I said I had never had a rifle.

22 He took me to his Commander, to a room. This was formerly the office

23 of the Local Commune, or something. It was quite small but it was a

24 part of that cinema.

25 Q. Is it something referred to as the dom building?

Page 5047

1 A. Yes, that is all within the confines of the dom.

2 Q. When you were interrogated were you beaten or mistreated in any way?

3 A. Yes, first, I had to write a statement where I had been, what I had

4 been doing, if I had any weapons, which one of my neighbours were in

5 possession of arms, what political party I belonged to and things like

6 that, and I had to write that down and then read it. What I wrote

7 down, I then read. If they were not satisfied with it, then a beating

8 would ensue.

9 They had special instruments for beating, and they were very

10 poor experts in beating with police batons. When they would beat me

11 with police batons, I could somehow endure it, rather, simply I could

12 bear it. It did not hurt that much. But when they beat me with

13 wooden instruments, they would make sticks of wood, and those were

14 blows, very hard and very painful. With these they beat me, three of

15 them, and then they would have enough and when they would have enough,

16 they would again put me up on the chair and make me continue writing

17 my statement. So that I had to write whatever they ordered me, what

18 was true and what was not.

19 Q. Do you know the names of any of the people that beat you?

20 A. Their Commander was Slavko Puhalic because they turned to him and he

21 was quite civil with me. He said, "You interrogate this guy. Let him

22 make a statement and be free", and then he went out into the field to

23 find a rifle or some inmate or something. But three of them stayed

24 behind, just soldiers, privates. They were not policemen, just

25 ordinary soldiers. I used to know one from before, not much but I knew

Page 5048

1 him. His name was Mladen Mitrovic. The second one was, sort of, a

2 round cheeked, rather small. He was Zeljko Rudak. The third one I

3 did not know. He had chestnut hair. He was clean shaven. But they

4 all treated me equally, more or less. Then followed beatings and

5 there was also music. They had a transistor radio or a cassette. The

6 music, they played it very loud. It seemed easier to beat alongside

7 the music also so that my screams and the cries of pain of other

8 inmates would not be heard.

9 Q. I think the person was Zeljko Rudak, is it, the guard who beat you?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. As a result of these beatings, did you suffer some broken ribs and

12 did you suffer internal kidney damage?

13 A. Yes, but before they started beating me, they beat one Demirovic

14 called "Began", and I was standing in the corner of this room and he

15 was severely beaten and I watched that. When they finished with him,

16 they told me, "Did you see what happened to him?" I said, "Yes". "So

17 if you do not tell the truth, you will fare even worse". That is how

18 it was. I told the truth, but I fared as bad as he or, perhaps, even

19 worse.

20 Yes, I did suffer the effects of the beatings, of the blows on

21 the head, because I had to beat my head against the floor. They said,

22 "Now beat your head, since it is foolish, since it voted for the SDA",

23 and they also hit me with their boots in the kidneys, and I lost my

24 consciousness several times. I was in a coma. They would, sort of,

25 arouse me, sprinkle some water on me and then put me up again in the

Page 5049

1 chair to go on writing. I had to write what I was ordered to. If I

2 did not write what they said, then beatings would follow. If I would

3 write down what they told me to, I would have to read it out and then

4 they would laugh and look at each other and say, "Look at what he

5 wrote", and then they would swear at my mother, and they made it

6 precise, the "balija" mother, and "write". So if I wrote, I would be

7 beaten. If I did not write, I would be beaten the same.

8 Then, when some three hours had gone by, I was already quite

9 deadened and I really wished they would kill me, they would finish me

10 off with a bullet. Then Mladen Mitrovic took out a knife and put it

11 at my throat and asked me, "Do you know this knife?" "No", I said.

12 He said, "That is your knife". I said, "No, it is not my knife", I

13 said, "nor has it ever been". "Yes, yes", he said. "You have cut the

14 throats of many Chetniks with this knife". I said, "No, I hate

15 slaughtering chicken, let alone men". He said, "Well, if you did not,

16 even if you did not, now you will be slaughtered with it", and then

17 with their blows, under the blows I fell down again on the floor and

18 he knelt on me to cut my throat, but he did not turn the edge of the

19 knife. He turned the blunt side of the knife and pressed it against

20 my throat. I expect -- and I thought that that was the end of me

21 then. But he was only trying to scare me and he pressed again with

22 the blunt edge of the knife against my throat and then he changed his

23 mind. He said, "Well, we will not kill you now". So, as I could not

24 stand up myself, they put me on my feet and put me against the wall.

25 So ----

Page 5050

1 Q. Did Mladen Mitrovic then cut you with a knife on your chest?

2 A. Yes, then when they put me up so as not to slaughter me, then on my

3 chest he cut a cross, he said, "As of today, by today is Bajram .

4 Bajram is a Muslim holiday and on your Bajram you will become a Serb

5 for all times", and that is when he carved a cross in my chest and hit

6 me with his knife in the chest and said, "As of today you are a Serb.

7 Throughout your life you will be a Serb". So I still have a scar and

8 I still have kidney complaints, and I have other pain and I still have

9 pain, chest pain, because of all those blows.

10 Q. In addition to cutting a cross on to your chest, did he force you to

11 make the religious sign of the cross?

12 A. I had to make a sign of a cross, that Serb sign. I do not really

13 know. I did not choose my religion. I did not choose my parents, who

14 will sire me. It was by chance that I was born a Muslim, but he

15 forced me to make a sign of a cross with my hand, but I did not know

16 that Catholics made a different sign of a cross from the Orthodox.

17 So, unfortunately, I chose so to cross myself as a Catholic and they

18 also hate Catholics as much as they hate Muslims, so then he said and

19 hit me, "Look at this Ustashe, fuck his mother. He is making an

20 Ustashe sign of cross". So I had to repeat that under the blows from

21 all three of them until I learnt the sequence of making that sign of a

22 cross, that sequence, and they would get confused and, unwittingly,

23 they would hit one another. So that one of them would say, "Oh,

24 ouch, you have hit me", and then they would go on beating me until I

25 would fall down on the floor under the blows, and sometimes I even had

Page 5051

1 to pretend I had fainted so they would stop for a while and I could

2 rally a little bit. On a number of occasions I fainted truly.

3 Q. About two weeks later did you go for a second interrogation?

4 A. Yes, they again called out "Besic", those namesakes of mine, so that

5 the turn of my two sons also came. They entered first for

6 interrogation and another neighbour whose name is also Besic, and I

7 was waiting outside.

8 A Serb was walking up and down outside and asking from a

9 policeman who had lined us up and was standing beside us to finish us

10 off, go quickly, that is, to shoot us. This one just indicated him

11 with his head to get lost. But he persisted, "Let me settle the

12 accounts with them. I will do it quickly", and that was very

13 disagreeable, whether this policeman would yield or not. But the

14 policeman was insistent and he managed to chase that guard from us.

15 Then I was also driven into the room where my sons were and

16 the sons were taken out into another room, and I entered to the

17 interrogator. The interrogator seemed slightly to be taken unawares.

18 So he asked me, "How are you? What are you? What are you doing

19 here", and such like and said, "Well, you are a good fellow, what are

20 you doing here in the camp?" I said, "I have not the slightest,

21 everybody is here and so am I".

22 "So what is new", he said, "what do I know? What do I know

23 about politics?" and so, and I told him, "Well, you know that I was

24 doing my job, that I am a driver, not a politician. I am not

25 interested in that, that I had friends, Serbs and Croats, and all

Page 5052

1 religions, I mean". He said, "Yes, I know, you are a good chap, but

2 you see those three who are interrogated before you, they have been

3 picked out for liquidation". He had in front of him a sheet of paper.

4 There was a list, a complete list, of us due for interrogation. In

5 the right-hand corner of that sheet of paper it was noted in red

6 pencil, and I saw it was my two names and my neighbour Teofil Besic

7 who were picked out for finishing off, and that went liquidation to

8 Omarska. I said, "Well, these are my sons." He was surprised and

9 said: "Oh, fuck your God, I could have killed your sons." I said like

10 this: "Well, if you can spare my children."

11 Q. Did that happen?

12 A. No. No, he said: "Well, since you are a good chap, here, I will save

13 your children." At that moment another Serb came in, a guard, and he

14 hugged this interrogator. The interrogator, he was an army officer, I

15 knew him but I did not know his name, he knew me better, he sort of

16 said: "I am your friend", and I did not know, but I was perhaps lost.

17 I could not remember his name. I still do not know who he is. I do

18 not know who interrogated me. I know him by sight but I do not know

19 his name.

20 Another guard entered and hugged him, so they enquired after

21 each other's health. Then he turned his head towards me, because I

22 was sitting next to him, and he said: "Who's that?" He said: "That's a

23 friend of mine." Then this one, that Serb who came in, asked: "Where

24 do you work?" I said that I worked at the mine, I was a driver. "Oh"

25 and then he swore at my mother: "You compiled lists, so that we ought

Page 5053

1 to liquidate all Serbs, all guards", that is that the Muslims were

2 making lists to liquidate Serbs. I said: "I did not make any lists

3 nor do I know of any such lists." Then a blow ensued, a very strong

4 one. I do not know if he had anything in his hand or not, but I

5 almost fainted. Then he started for his pistol, but the one who

6 interrogated me first, he jumped up and separated us and said: "Get

7 out, get lost and take your children to the school", and that is how

8 it was. That is how this interrogation ended without a major tragedy.

9 Q. Apart from these two integrations, were you ever singled out again

10 for interrogation during the period of time that you were in the

11 Trnopolje camp?

12 A. Yes, there was yet another time when I was singled out, but it was

13 not that. Then I was only hit once with that police baton, with a

14 truncheon, and he hit me only once, but that was in passing only. So

15 the third time I was not really beaten as the first time. The first

16 time was quite enough. I was immobile for 15 days. My sons took me

17 to the toilet and when I needed to turn over they had to do it. One

18 would take me by the shoulders and one by my feet and they would turn

19 me to the other side. I could lie only sideways. I could not lie on

20 my back or on my chest because my chest was badly injured and bloody.

21 People would come to see me and those who would see me would turn

22 their heads away from me and would not ever want to see me again, but

23 I survived that. It was ----

24 Q. When you were at the camp were many of the prisoners taken away for

25 interrogation that you could see?

Page 5054

1 A. Yes, many were interrogated there, but many were also taken to

2 Keraterm and Omarska. Every day guards would walk around the camp,

3 around the civilians, and call out some inmates. Those were usually

4 eminent, either people with businesses of their own, businessmen,

5 people who had money or who had a say of their own or who were in the

6 police. Every day somebody would leave, some to Omarska to the camp,

7 some to Keraterm and some went somewhere and we still do not know

8 where they are. They never came back. One of them is my brother. My

9 brother left and his son, they left to Prijedor. They never returned

10 and they are still missing. My wife's brother lied next to me in the

11 camp, and he was taken away. Branko Topola called him out, he was a

12 bus driver, and he named General Zeric and Gutic. "One Gutic, come

13 out." We thought they needed them to drive some buses or something,

14 but they are still gone. Then six brothers, that is two brothers, two

15 sons of two brothers, that is four and of their again cousins, two

16 more sons, so two by two by two, six of them were taken away. Their

17 name was Foric. They are still missing.

18 Q. What about in the camp itself, in Trnopolje camp, not Omarska or

19 Keraterm, were there many interrogations that occurred there that you

20 knew of?

21 A. Well, we were not really all interrogated. We were not all

22 interrogated. There were people who were not interrogated, whereas in

23 other camps, from what I have learned, they all had to be

24 interrogated. No, that was not the case in Trnopolje. When I was

25 detained there there were 19 of us, that is what we called, and we

Page 5055

1 were more or less all beaten and battered and some could not even sit

2 stone or lie down. Then a man came called Zika, I do not know him,

3 and when he saw us, what we looked like, all beaten up, then he turned

4 up all of a sudden at the door and asked them, all of them, "Why were

5 you detained? Why were you interrogated?" When my turn came he asked

6 me: "Why did they interrogate you? Did you have any arms?" I said:

7 "I did have a pistol but it was for 10 or 15 years and it was quite a

8 lawful weapon and I was a driver going out into the fields, so that I

9 would have it with me because I drove goods, I never needed it." I

10 said that I had turned over that pistol and he asked me if I had a

11 paper to show that I had turned it over. I said, no, because nobody

12 gave out any papers. I said I turned over my pistol to a soldier who

13 was called Dej, that is what I learned by accident. He had here a

14 mark, here somewhere on the chin. He said that I was telling the

15 truth, yes, that there was such a soldier and that that was his name.

16 He ordered another soldier, a Serb, to take me by the hand and he did

17 too because I could not walk by myself. So they took me. There was a

18 surgery nearby, an ambulanta in that same part, in the same compound,

19 except that it was at the corner. He called a doctor, his name was

20 Jusuf Pasic, a young man, a doctor. He threatened them and said: "You

21 have got to help this man. Can you help him so that I don't have to

22 take him to Prijedor now?" That doctor, the older one Pasic, replied

23 that they could not really. He said: "We can give him an injection and

24 tend to him here", but that some Serb minister or doctor or

25 technician, somebody who was their boss and they know him too, he did

Page 5056

1 not have one arm, that he did not allow that the inmates be taken to

2 Prijedor to the hospital, but that they had to stay there and whatever

3 happened to them.

4 So I was given that injection and he told me: "Do you have any

5 family members there, out there in the camp, in the school?" I said:

6 "Yes, my sons." So he said: "Go, crouch into a corner and don't let

7 these fools see you because they are fools and this madness will also

8 pass." He patted me on the shoulder and said: "I am Zika and I know

9 nothing." He stopped that interrogation.

10 So then all those who were detained, taken into custody for

11 interrogation, he let them go because all those who were interrogated

12 were beaten up, were battered, were quite impotent. There were only a

13 few lads behind who were not interrogated and they were not beaten

14 either. So that that interrogation was stopped now. After that it

15 would happen that they would take out someone, but it was much less

16 and those perhaps were some private accounts that were being settled

17 or they again looked for some, well, if somebody had perhaps some

18 money or if he had had a conflict with somebody before, but there was

19 no more systematic interrogation.

20 Q. Did you ever see men taken out of the camp to perform work duty

21 during the period of time you were in Trnopolje?

22 A. Yes, that was a frequent occurrence. I remember ----

23 Q. I am sorry. When these men were taken out, do you know whether they

24 were bound in any way or were they under guard? Can you describe the

25 circumstances how this happened?

Page 5057

1 A. People taken out to work, no, they were not tied, yes, military went

2 with them and guards, but they were not tied. They were taken with a

3 certificate. The Camp Commander Kuruzovic issued them a piece of

4 paper. Some would come back, but I remember when three left, they

5 were under age, they went to load a truck with timber for a driver, a

6 Serb, and one of the young men came back and he was all scratched

7 because he was trying to escape and this one fired after him. They

8 were Mahmuljin. Those two boys have never turned up. I would really

9 like them to be still alive, but the mother of one of them came to the

10 camp and cried and was asking to tell her where her son was, but

11 nobody told them. Even the Camp Commander simply shrugged his

12 shoulders and said: "I fear the worse." But I think he knew that they

13 had been killed because they are still missing.

14 Q. Of a night time do you recall whether or not girls were taken out of

15 the camp?

16 A. Yes, that was in the beginning, because in the beginning there were

17 many women, girls, children. I believe over 20 convoys were formed

18 from the Trnopolje camp for Banja Luka and then onward to Travnik and

19 Bosnia, that free one controlled by the BH Army. In the beginning, as

20 I told you, I was sleeping in the cinema and one night, it was a very

21 turbulent night, soldiers came in with torch lamps and they were

22 lighting the place and looking for something. We did not know what

23 they were looking for, except that we saw the girls crying and begging

24 them, "Not me, not me." But this did not help and many were taken out

25 that night. If some of the men, the old ones, perhaps a father or a

Page 5058

1 grandfather of a girl, would raise his head and say, "Don't take her,

2 this is my daughter, my daughter-in-law" or whatever, he would be hit

3 with a rifle butt or a kick. So that I heard a wail or a cry of pain

4 of old men. I dared lift my head a little, but very cautiously. They

5 were not close to me because this was a long hall, perhaps some 15, 20

6 metres, I would not know exactly, and I could see as they were moving

7 where they would come closer, because that cinema was full of

8 civilians lying down, of children and women and people. In the

9 morning they would come back, but that night nobody slept, nobody

10 could sleep. There were very many shots. If somebody would say

11 something, then you could hear a Serb soldier cry out: "Well, throw a

12 bomb, fuck your mother, throw a bomb and kill them all." I expected a

13 bomb to fall amongst us, but nobody did throw a bomb. At any rate,

14 the next day those girl that had been taken out returned. Somebody

15 complained, whether it was the girls or parents or mother, somebody

16 complained to the Commander, to Kuruzovic.

17 Q. When the girls returned can you describe the state they were in?

18 A. They were terrified, terrified. They did not want to talk to anyone.

19 We did not want to look at them because they felt embarrassed. They

20 shied away from those around them. Whenever somebody would look at

21 them they would look at the floor. They cried all day and they turned

22 their faces to the wall because they felt ashamed. It was a disgrace.

23 We who knew that, we also kept silent. We did not dare talk because

24 we were also afraid. A day later soldiers came. I guess the

25 Commander had criticised them. They came in a tank. There were very

Page 5059

1 many soldiers on that tank with beards and with those caps and those

2 markings, those Kokardas, and fired off, but they fired into the air,

3 not at people. But they fired a lot and that is how they tried to

4 intimidate us. They circled in the tank around the camp and we tried

5 to escape. We tried to run for shelter in the school, somewhere not

6 to be outside. Later on we learnt that that was the result of that

7 night, that somebody had complained about the army, that the army was

8 raping and things like that. So that they came there to scare us off,

9 to intimidate us, so that we would not complain to the Commander again

10 about such things.

11 Q. What was the average age of the girls that were taken out?

12 A. I knew two by sight. They were perhaps around 22, 23, but believe

13 me, I really felt embarrassed to talk to them. I only watched them,

14 observed them, so that they would not know that I was observing them

15 because I felt sorry for them. They were too embarrassed. They would

16 not bear anyone looking at them. Mostly their age was 17, 18 or

17 perhaps 30 if she was young and pretty and nice looking, she would

18 also be taken out.

19 MR. NIEMANN: Is that a convenient time, your Honour?

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, let me ask you regarding Exhibit 311A,

21 B and C that you have submitted pursuant to Rule 70(C). I gather you

22 have received the consent of the entity providing this information?

23 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. I think that is contained on the front of

24 the letter.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That says that it -- OK. You are saying that this

Page 5060

1 letter gives you consent to publicise that information?


3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Very good. Mr. Orie, you had said that you may

4 have an objection as to accuracy. Perhaps I misheard you or

5 misunderstood you. I was responding that you may have an objection as

6 to authenticity. I gather what you are saying is that the maps here

7 that are attached, these drawings, you may challenge their accuracy in

8 terms of the placement of information on these maps, is that what you

9 are saying?

10 MR. ORIE: Yes, your Honour.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That, of course, could you challenge anyway by

12 cross-examination, but they will be admitted. Depending upon what your

13 challenge is we will then consider it.

14 We will stand in recess until 2.30.

15 (1.00 p.m.)


17 (Luncheon Adjournment)


19 (2.30 p.m.) PRIVATE

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, would you like to continue?

21 MR. NIEMANN: I think Mr. Orie wants to raise something.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Orie, I am sorry.

23 MR. ORIE: Your Honour, I would like to come back to the issue we

24 discussed this morning of the documents that have been presented by

25 the Prosecution. We have given it a better look than we gave Article

Page 5061

1 70, also a better look than we did before. The solution you suggested

2 that would be suitable under these circumstances to challenge the

3 accuracy in the cross-examination is, in our view, not finally an

4 acceptable one.

5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No, I meant to challenge the accuracy on

6 cross-examination, not not to challenge.

7 MR. ORIE: I do not understand whether you have correctly understood.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What you have said to me to make me respond, I

9 thought you said that my solution was to not challenge.

10 MR. ORIE: No, that is not what I meant to say at least.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sorry, I misunderstood.

12 MR. ORIE: Your Honour, I would like to give some arguments for not

13 accepting these documents as evidence. I think I had better do it now

14 than when any witness might be confronted with these documents. If I

15 understand well, these are drawings that are based upon what we expect

16 to be satellite photographs taken, but that is not of major importance

17 for us what the source is at this moment.

18 If they would be put in evidence just as documents, then, of

19 course, we could challenge at a later stage whether they are accurate

20 or not and find our ways to do it. But when I do understand well,

21 the Prosecution intends to use these documents to show them to

22 witnesses and then, of course, the witnesses will reply upon questions

23 that are dealing with this situation.

24 First of all, we are still convinced and are even able, I

25 think, to demonstrate that the documents are not accurate, so we are

Page 5062

1 offering to at least convince you that these are not accurate

2 documents. But, apart from that, and that might even be far more

3 important, these documents contain a lot of information that may be

4 highly suggestive if you show them to witnesses.

5 For example, there are dates on it of what a situation at a

6 certain place was, but not only dates, but also, for example, that

7 there were buses there, that there was a crowd of people there, as I

8 see on the map of 13th August 1992, and especially because we are so

9 concerned about the accuracy because if the fixed buildings are not

10 yet accurate, why would any indication of buses being on such a map,

11 or crowds of people, be more accurate?

12 Since we are highly restricted under Rule 70, especially (D)

13 and (E), we are not in a position to call witnesses. You are even not

14 in a position to summon witnesses on your own behalf, to tell us about

15 how these documents were created, because this is an interpretation, I

16 think, of photographs, several photographs -- I have no idea -- but if

17 these documents are used to be given to witnesses, and if they see on

18 these maps that at a certain date there were buses there or that there

19 was a crowd of people somewhere, this is suggestive to a high extent.

20 For that reason, we oppose strongly against accepting these documents

21 as evidence at this moment.

22 If you think it is necessary -- I do not know whether it is

23 essential or not -- that we show that at least some inaccuracy is

24 there, we are quite willing to do so.


Page 5063

1 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour. Your Honours, the Defence are

2 saying that they are inaccurate, but in what way are they inaccurate?

3 We have not heard one word as to that. I would be most interested to

4 know how they say they are inaccurate, having regard to the date that

5 these documents are said to have been created and having regard to

6 what I understand of the Defence's access to the area.

7 If they are inaccurate, then I think it is appropriate that we

8 be told that so that some assessment can be made on the question of

9 their admissibility, in particular, going to the question of whether

10 or not they should be shown to witnesses. So, in the absence of

11 hearing from the Defence as to how they are inaccurate, then I do not

12 see how your Honours can be assisted in dealing with the question of

13 admissibility.

14 With respect to suggestability, then witnesses are giving

15 their evidence of what they saw at the camp and what they experienced

16 at the camp and are then shown the map or the plan. The witness can

17 agree with it or disagree with it, say whether they recognise it or

18 not recognise it. It is not a question of suggesting anything to the

19 witness.

20 It happens time and time again during the proceedings where a

21 document that has been tendered in the course of proceedings by one

22 witness or in some way is then subsequently shown to another witness.

23 The witness deals with it as best the witness can. I cannot see how

24 it suggests anything other than that. Most of these witnesses speak

25 of the existence of buses. Most of these people speak of crowds of

Page 5064

1 people being gathered around. I cannot see how it is suggestive.

2 So, my submission, your Honour, without further from the

3 Defence, I am not sure how one can deal with it.

4 JUDGE STEPHEN: Can I ask you a question? Why do you think these will

5 help us? We already have had sketch plans and innumerable photographs

6 of Trnopolje. Nothing really turns on the geography very much, does

7 it? My second question is, is it essential, from your point of view,

8 to show these to witnesses? We have only two or three more left.

9 MR. NIEMANN: Yes. It assists it ----

10 JUDGE STEPHEN: It just seems to me we are having a great debate about

11 something that is probably of no great relevance.

12 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I do not want to press this thing beyond what

13 is necessary to press it, except that if a witness says that this

14 appears to them to be a plan of Trnopolje camp, then that may be of

15 assistance to your Honours. Very clearly, we have had a witness that

16 has already drawn a plan. If one compares that plan with this plan,

17 it may be sufficient.

18 So I am not absolutely committed to the idea of showing it to

19 a witness, except that I would have thought that it may have assisted

20 your Honours in doing so. But it seems to me, your Honours, that this

21 may be the only material that is available which purports to be a plan

22 of the camp area at that time. Everything that your Honours have seen

23 and had in relation to that is material that has been generated some

24 considerable time after it.

25 JUDGE STEPHEN: One final question: the interpretation of "crowd of

Page 5065

1 people and buses", is that essential for your purposes? If that were

2 removed, would it reduce the value of these, from your point of view?

3 MR. NIEMANN: If that is the basis upon which the Defence are objecting to

4 it, and if they can explain why that, having regard to the evidence

5 that has already been tendered through the witnesses, is a difficulty,

6 then that is a matter that we will take under consideration, your

7 Honours, in an effort to resolve the matter.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What are your concerns with respect to this Exhibit?

9 Let us see if we can put it in the proper framework. You are

10 offering this under Rule 70(C) which provides that, "If the Prosecutor

11 is in possession of information which has been provided to him on a

12 confidential basis and which has been used solely for the purpose of

13 generating new evidence, that initial information and its origin shall

14 not be disclosed by the Prosecutor without the consent of the person

15 or entity providing the initial information and shall in any event not

16 be given in evidence without prior disclosure to the accused".

17 Before we recessed, I wanted to make sure that there had been

18 this consent and that is what Mr. Niemann says this covering letter of

19 311 says, that when it said that they may be used in court

20 proceedings, that is sufficient consent to reveal the identity of the

21 source, etc. or at least the source in so far as the identity of the

22 country providing this information.

23 (D), I understand there are concerns, but I think that the

24 Rule contemplated that a document like this would be offered by the

25 entity that provides this information. So that we would not just have

Page 5066

1 a document that comes into evidence, but that whoever provided this

2 information would then be the witness and it would come in through

3 the witness. Then, of course, the Rule goes on to provide for

4 cross-examination but that limits you in your cross-examination.

5 So I suppose the problem is that when this piece of paper

6 just, kind of, comes in by reference to a witness who has not prepared

7 this document, it is hard to challenge it because he has not prepared

8 it. He does not know whether it is accurate or not, but if he is

9 given the document where there are suggestions about what exists that

10 he might be more prone to say, "Oh, yes", nod his head, "it says 'a

11 crowd of persons', therefore, it must be a crowd of persons".

12 But I would follow with Mr. Niemann's concern and that is, Mr.

13 Orie, what is there about any of these three plots or diagrams that

14 you contend is inaccurate? Let us see if, perhaps, we can deal with

15 that and there may not be a problem, as I think Judge Stephen is

16 suggesting.

17 MR. ORIE: Your Honour, I think the problem is not, perhaps, the

18 inaccuracies we found only but, of course, first of all, the

19 Prosecutor is claiming that this is the only material that relates to

20 the situation in August 1992. First of all, we are not in a position

21 to verify whether this is true or not because we cannot hear any

22 witness, so that is a claim already.

23 If there are minor inaccuracies which we can more or less

24 demonstrate now, of course, we have no possibility to demonstrate

25 whether it is inaccurate as far as the buses and the crowds of people

Page 5067

1 are concerned, but if it is inaccurate in certain points, then, of

2 course, you will understand that we fear that it might be inaccurate

3 on the other issues as well.

4 I must say that part of it, if you are just talking about

5 buildings, then it is of lesser concern to the Defence although, as a

6 matter of principle, I think it should not be allowed because it is

7 apart from fixed buildings, there are also tents on it, etc. etc., and

8 I do not see how this material is necessary for a witness to testify

9 on the situation he has found at that moment.

10 If you would like to have an indication of what is inaccurate,

11 if I may draw your attention, it is the same on all three drawings,

12 that there is a rectangular building just at the junction of the road,

13 just north of it, and just south of what we have been told was the

14 shed where building materials were sold.

15 In our view, that is not a correct representation of what must

16 have existed at that time there. There was an electrical -- there was

17 a building on a different place and a different shape. Apart from

18 that, I noticed that although the drawings are very precise as showing

19 even shelters, that one of the fixed buildings, one of the

20 Prosecution's witnesses has told us about, it was a toilet building

21 just south of the dom building, is not represented on these drawings.

22 I would like to make a final remark on one of the arguments

23 that has been used by the Prosecutor. He said, "Well, witnesses have

24 been presented pictures and photographs and other witnesses had told

25 already about that". As far as I remember, there was an order of your

Page 5068

1 Court that the witnesses should not speak to each other and not get

2 any information on what happened during the earlier Court hearings.

3 So, that is not an argument that convinces me highly, but these are

4 just two things.

5 There are a few more, but especially these two, toilet

6 building, the witnesses have stated, the Prosecution witnesses have

7 said, it was there. We have pictures of that. It is still there.

8 So, of course, it may be possible that they just have been removed for

9 13th August, but that does not seem very likely to me. The

10 electricity building is, quite clearly, not in the position and not in

11 the shape as we find it on our photos.

12 If you would look at these photos, you would see that these

13 buildings have been there for a very long time. I am quite willing to

14 show them to you. We have not prepared any copies.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Orie, your objection will be granted. The

16 documents, you do not have a challenge to the authenticity. Your

17 concern is with accuracy. Whoever prepared this is not here for you

18 to cross-examine. It appears to me that if they came in and then

19 offered to the witness, the witness, of course, could argue against

20 this exhibit and challenge

21 the exhibit, but it would be suggestive, certainly for lay people.

22 If you took off, for example, the "crowd of people", that would help.

23 What is troublesome, though, is that it really does not

24 provide any information to the Chamber that we do not already have.

25 We have an Exhibit 309, Prosecutor's Exhibit 309. That was a drawing

Page 5069

1 that was prepared by one of the witnesses of Trnopolje camp. We have

2 had a lot of testimony. We have had at least two videos, as I can

3 recall, of Trnopolje camp, several, several photographs.

4 My personal concern is that the party preparing this document

5 is not here for you to cross-examine, and that any inaccuracies that

6 may exist in this document cannot really be developed in the way that

7 they should be. So it would not really help us.

8 So, therefore, your objection will be granted. Exhibit 311

9 will be removed from evidence -- Exhibit 311A, B and C. Mr. Niemann,

10 would you call your next witness?

11 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You are continuing.

13 MR. ENIZ BESIC, recalled

14 Examined by MR. NIEMANN, continued

15 MR. NIEMANN: Mr. Besic, do you know the accused Dule Tadic?

16 A. Yes, I do. I have known him for some 10 years before the war.

17 Q. What were the circumstances of how it is that you came to know Dule

18 Tadic?

19 A. As a matter of fact, I knew his father better. He was a serious man.

20 He took part in that war back then, since its early days and he was a

21 man who was well respected in Kozarac. Dule Tadic I met when he was

22 already grown up and when he began engaging in this karate training,

23 and he also was a coach for my son for about a year, my middle son. I

24 advised my son to give up the course because he had kidney complaints,

25 so that my son quit. That is how I met Dule Tadic.

Page 5070

1 Q. What was your son learning from the accused Dule Tadic?

2 A. Why, he was learning, he was training, he was practising karate.

3 This, what is it called, karate trainings.

4 Q. Do you know where Dule Tadic lived in Kozarac?

5 A. I know it well.

6 Q. Where was it in Kozarac, where was it located?

7 A. That part in the centre of Kozarac and it belongs more to Krkici. It

8 is right next to Kozarac, as you get off the Banja Luka/Prijedor road

9 above a restaurant to the right, that is where Dule Tadic's house was

10 and he had a coffee bar. As I was a driver, I often went to Mrakovica

11 by truck and I saw him often, and I also often times would walk past

12 his house in day time.

13 Q. At the times you knew him before the war, do you know whether he had

14 a beard or was he clean shaven?

15 A. Well, he had beard more often than not. Not really a long one, but I

16 have known him longer with beard than without a beard.

17 Q. When you were in the Trnopolje camp, did you ever see Dule Tadic?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. When was the first time that you saw him?

20 A. Approximately after a month of my stay in the camp, perhaps a few

21 days more. I do not remember the date because I really did not think

22 about dates. I was wondering whether I would survive. Once I saw him

23 next to the -- across the school in the on the road as he was talking

24 to a guard. I did not see him enter the grounds. He was standing and

25 talking to Serb guards.

Page 5071

1 Q. Was it day time when you saw him?

2 A. Yes, yes, it was day time.

3 Q. About how far were you from him when you saw him?

4 A. Let me see, it was 15, maybe 20 metres. I was in front of the school

5 and he was on the road. The school is not far away from the main

6 road.

7 Q. When you say this was about a month after you arrived, so it is

8 likely to have been sometime in June 1992, is that right?

9 A. It could have been end of June, perhaps the early days of July,

10 somewhere there.

11 Q. When you saw him, how was he dressed?

12 A. He had a military uniform, multi-coloured military uniform.

13 Q. What was the predominant colour in this uniform?

14 A. You know, they had several kinds of uniform, and they would turn up

15 in different types of uniform. I mean, all the Serb guards and

16 soldiers. There was a multi-coloured uniform, military one, and then

17 there was a police uniform which was blue and there was also a police

18 civilian blue, but it was slightly multi-coloured, a little

19 camouflage, as we call it.

20 Q. Are you able now to remember whether it was the police camouflage

21 uniform or the military camouflage uniform?

22 A. It was not the police uniform, I mean, the blue one, the real blue

23 civilian police uniform. It was more a military, of many colours.

24 Q. Was he armed on this occasion?

25 A. Yes, and there was an automatic rifle on him.

Page 5072

1 Q. What was he doing when you saw him there?

2 A. Standing on the road, and there were several guards gathered around

3 him, around him and they talked. They were together.

4 Q. Did you recognise anyone he was standing with?

5 A. Well, I may have, at the time I did not have time because by the time

6 I saw him I turned, as I already had some early experience. If you

7 saw anyone you knew, what we called a neighbour, then it might cost

8 you your life or, at least, a beating. So, even as I recognised --

9 even had I recognised anyone, I would have turned back to the school

10 where one's place was because I would be afraid, although I had

11 nothing, no conflict with him before the war, but I did not -- I felt

12 uneasy. I was slightly afraid. I have had that experience, that

13 neighbours or friends were killed by their neighbours or friends or

14 beaten up.

15 Q. When you saw him was he clean shaven or did he have a beard on the

16 first occasion?

17 A. He had a beard, a short one, yes, he had a beard then.

18 Q. On the second time you saw him, when was that?

19 A. That was perhaps a week later, whether he was in passing or had he

20 come on some business but, in any event, he turned up some seven or 10

21 days later. He appeared again on that same road, not with those same

22 guards, but he was again in the company of guards.

23 Q. Did he come into the camp at any stage when you saw him?

24 A. No, I did not see him enter the camp.

25 Q. When you saw him on the second occasion where were you?

Page 5073

1 A. Since I lived in this school, in the so-called library, I would go

2 out either to go to the toilet or to prepare some food. Since I was

3 preparing some food, there were several of us, and we prepared our

4 food together because there was no organised kitchen or anything.

5 There was a joint cauldron. It could feed some 300, 400 people and we

6 were not less than 1600, so that not even 30 per cent of people could

7 eat there. That meant that one had to fend for himself, and I would

8 have to go out, but if there they would be somebody on the road as I

9 went out, I would get out of that sight -- of their sight and I

10 avoided to go out.

11 Q. So you saw him from outside of the school building and he was on the

12 road when you saw him?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. How was he dressed on this second occasion when you saw him, can you

15 remember?

16 A. He was in civilian clothes at that time.

17 Q. Was he armed?

18 A. He was armed with a pistol then. I did not see the rifle, but they

19 are all very brief scenes so there is not much looking around. I

20 mean, the moment I saw it was Dule Tadic, I rather moved away than

21 stand there.

22 Q. Just finally about the camp, were there toilets located outside of

23 the buildings and out in the open in the camp?

24 A. Since that was a school it had its toilets inside, but since the

25 water supply was cut off, they were all blocked, there was no water

Page 5074

1 for use and they were locked also, so that we had to go outside to

2 relieve ourselves, outside the school. At first, some holes were dug

3 out and those, you know, those wooden pallets were put over them, and

4 then they were surrounded with blocks, with elements of about a metre,

5 a metre and a half, so that as one went there to relieve oneself, his

6 head stuck above that fence. It was really filthy and whenever it

7 rained they would overflow and it all floated, all this filth, all

8 that just floated around the school.

9 Q. Was it dangerous at times to use the toilet?

10 A. Yes, both by day and by night. At night it was slightly less

11 dangerous if it was really dark. If it was a quiet night, it was also

12 dangerous to be seen by a guard because they tended to fire. In day

13 time, one had to walk very warily and sometimes they would fire, and

14 you had to go back, you could not go to the toilet and then wait for

15 an hour or even more to try again. It depended on the guard. Some

16 tried to provoke more and fired more, some less.

17 Q. Were people using the toilets from time to time fired upon by the

18 guards?

19 A. Yes, yes, especially if a man, if an inmate took a bottle with water

20 because there was no toilet paper -- sanitary conditions were very bad

21 and one would take a bottle with water to wash himself -- and then

22 they would fire and you had to discard the bottle, and you could hear

23 the voice swearing "Balija mother" or using offensive language against

24 something Muslim, so that you had to discard that vessel with water,

25 if you had one, and go back, and then try either to hide if you could

Page 5075

1 hide that container with water or just not take along it because it

2 was dangerous to take water into the WC.

3 Q. From where did the guards fire upon the prisoners using the toilets?

4 A. They fired from a post below. There was a road from Prijedor to

5 Trnopolje, and there was a post which was quite good. They had good

6 visibility because they were a little away from the school -- a

7 little bit away from the school, and they could see people well and

8 then provoke people who went there to relieve themselves. I remember

9 that post, where it was on the road.

10 Q. Were there a number of guard posts around the camp?

11 A. Yes, there were very many guards and very many sentry posts, points,

12 as they called them.

13 Q. These sentry points that were located around the camp, were they used

14 to guard the camp or were they used to guard the roads?

15 A. It was only to guard the camp, so that the inmates would not leave

16 the camp or escape. But sometimes they also used those guards to

17 control those who might move along, and it applied to civilians, that

18 is, women who brought food for their husbands or sons, and those

19 guards controlled what they brought, that is, those bags and whatever

20 was in those bags, and such like. But their principal responsibility

21 was that an inmate who had come out of the -- that the inmates do not

22 leave the camp, because all the machine guns, all the rifles, were

23 aimed at the -- were turned towards the camp.

24 Q. Mr. Besic, would you please look around the courtroom and tell me if

25 you see the person you know and recognise as Dule Tadic?

Page 5076

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Would you ----

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. --- please point to that person, describe where he is sitting in the

5 courtroom and the clothes that he has on?

6 A. Dule Tadic is sitting to my left. He is wearing a dark blue suit, a

7 tie, clean shaven, sitting in the middle between two policemen.

8 Q. Might the record reflect, your Honour?

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, the record will reflect that the witness

10 identified the accused.

11 MR. NIEMANN: I have no more questions, your Honour.

12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss de Bertodano, cross-examination?

13 MISS DE BERTODANO: Yes, your Honour.

14 Cross-examined by MISS DE BERTODANO

15 Q. Mr. Besic, you were not a friend of Dusko Tadic's, were you?

16 A. No.

17 Q. He was not someone whose house you would visit?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Or who you would have a drink with or socialise with?

20 A. No.

21 Q. When you saw him in Kozarac you saw him in passing?

22 A. By and large, in passing, sometimes in the company of some other

23 Kozarac people with whom he would be talking, since I often went past

24 his house practically every day, and sometimes even several times a

25 day, so that I could see him often when I passed there.

Page 5077

1 Q. Before the war, can you remember when the last time you would have

2 seen him would have been?

3 A. I cannot recall, but I used to see him in Kozarac until the war

4 itself.

5 Q. You have told us today about two occasions on which you saw him while

6 you were in Trnopolje camp.

7 A. Could you repeat it, please?

8 Q. Today you have been telling us about two occasions on which you saw

9 him while you were staying at Trnopolje camp, that is right, is it

10 not?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. On the first occasion you have said that it was a month or possibly

13 more after you arrived at the camp, so late June, early July?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You cannot be more specific about a date?

16 A. No, no, I mean, dates were not the things that were on my mind and I

17 was not interested in Dule, and there were words, so that I never

18 wrote down or remembered the dates.

19 Q. When you saw him you were coming out of the school building?

20 A. I was outside, yes, I was outside the school building.

21 Q. You saw him on the road talking to a group of guards?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you remember which way he was facing, whether he was facing

24 towards the school building or towards the road?

25 A. Well, all around, he was looking all around. He was talking to

Page 5078

1 people.

2 Q. Can you remember how many people were in that group of guards?

3 A. Three or four guards, I would not know exactly, but they were around

4 him and they were talking.

5 Q. You cannot help us with the names of any of these guards?

6 A. You know, I spent four months there. Very, very many guards had --

7 passed through the camp, and I really could not be sure who were the

8 guards then.

9 Q. Also you told us that you did not have time to see who the other

10 guards were or to recognise the other guards because you knew that

11 when you recognised people that could lead to bad experiences, is that

12 right?

13 A. Yes, I guess so, maybe it would not have but I was afraid because of

14 the previous experience.

15 Q. You have told us that Dusko Tadic was wearing a camouflage uniform,

16 but you cannot assist us in any detail as to what the colours of the

17 camouflage uniform were?

18 A. That I can do. That was a camouflage uniform, a multi-coloured,

19 military, camouflage uniform. Just a moment, a camouflage uniform,

20 the military one, and the police camouflage uniforms, they are quite

21 alike, but the police uniform is slightly darker and more blue.

22 Q. You were some 15 to 20 metres away from this scene at that time?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You then told the Court that you saw him a week later?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5079

1 Q. That was in more or less the same position as you had seen him the

2 first time?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Again, he was on the road with a group of guards?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Can you remember who any of the guards he was with were on this

7 occasion?

8 A. No.

9 Q. You told the Court that both these scenes were very brief scenes?

10 A. Yes, long enough to recognise him and to go back, to get away from

11 his sight, back to the room where I used to spend time.

12 Q. When were you first asked to recall these scenes to anyone?

13 A. Repeat the question, please.

14 Q. The question was when you were first asked to remember these scenes,

15 these two scenes, that you have told us about today?

16 A. Well, that was -- it was some interrogator, somebody who asked

17 questions, some investigator who came to me whom I gave an interview,

18 who paid me a visit and I gave him an interview about everything, not

19 really about everything. There was not time for that because I could

20 go on for days and nights. This is only a small fragment, one per

21 cent of it. So that I was found, asked to give an interview and I

22 agreed. I do not remember. There was somebody with an interpreter

23 whom I did not know, but not -- that person is not present here.

24 Q. Would that have been in about January of this year?

25 A. Yes, I think so. It was winter time. I think it was January.

Page 5080

1 MISS DE BERTODANO: I have nothing further, your Honour.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Redirect, Mr. Niemann?

3 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mr. Besic being

5 permanently excused?

6 MISS DE BERTODANO: No, your Honour.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Besic, you are permanently excused. You may

8 leave. Thank you for coming. You are free to leave.

9 (The witness withdrew)


11 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, we have prepared the motion that we discussed

12 this morning ----


14 MISS HOLLIS: --- the oral motion that we have made. We have prepared the

15 written motion. We will provide a copy to the Defence.

16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Are we going to hear from witness No. 73 now?

17 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour, it will be Samir Hodzic.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I will look at the motion. You may call Mr. Hodzic.

19 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour. We will call Mr. Samir Hodzic.

20 MR. SAMIR HODZIC, called.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Hodzic, would you please take that oath that is

22 being given to you?

23 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak the

24 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

25 (The witness was sworn)

Page 5081

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated.

2 Examined by MISS HOLLIS

3 Q. Would you please state your full name?

4 A. Samir Hodzic.

5 Q. What is your date of birth?

6 A. 10th October 1970.

7 Q. Were you born in a hamlet about one and one half kilometres from the

8 village of Trnopolje?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. If the witness could be provided Prosecution Exhibit 305, please?

11 Mr. Hodzic, if you could look at this map and take a moment to orient

12 yourself, please? If this map could be placed on the overhead

13 projector, please? Could you please take the pointer that is on the

14 desk there by you, and if you could point us to your house, where it

15 was located near the village of Trnopolje? So this is the house that

16 is located just to the left of the intersection below the word

17 "Trnjani"?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Where did you attend primary school?

20 A. In Trnopolje.

21 Q. Where did you attend secondary school?

22 A. In Maribor.

23 Q. Is that in Slovenia?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. After you completed secondary school in Slovenia, did you remain in

Page 5082

1 Slovenia and take technical training there?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What training did you receive?

4 A. I became a metal worker, I graduated from school which allowed me to

5 work as a metal worker.

6 Q. While you lived in Slovenia, how often did you visit your home in

7 Trnopolje?

8 A. Well, once a month perhaps.

9 Q. Were you called up to do your compulsory military service in 1991

10 while you were living in Slovenia?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you first serve in Stip, Macedonia, and then in Dubrovnik?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What were your duties in the JNA?

15 A. I was with the artillery. I was a site -- I was calculating the

16 targets, siting targets.

17 Q. Did you leave the JNA in December of 1991 before your compulsory

18 service was completed?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Why did you leave the JNA before completing your service?

21 A. Because I could not stay there any more. I could not endure it any

22 more.

23 Q. Did you return to your home in Trnopolje in December 1991 and live

24 with your family there?

25 A. Yes.

Page 5083

1 Q. Did you live at home until 9th July 1992 when you were taken to a

2 camp?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. During the time that you lived in Trnopolje as you grew up there and

5 then after you came back from the service, how often would you visit

6 Kozarac?

7 A. Well, I went two or three times a week, Saturdays and Sundays were

8 regularly, always.

9 Q. Why would you go to Kozarac several times a week?

10 A. Simply for amusement.

11 Q. Did you go there for any reasons other than entertainment?

12 A. Yes, when I needed something, when I had to do some shopping in some

13 of the shops.

14 Q. When you went to Kozarac where would you go?

15 A. I mostly frequented coffee bars and such like, some restaurants.

16 Q. Were you familiar with the main business street in Kozarac?

17 A. Well, yes, so .....

18 Q. Did you know Dule Tadic?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When was Dule Tadic first pointed out to you?

21 A. Sometime at a time when I came out of the primary school.

22 Q. Do you recall how many years it would have been before 1992 that he

23 was first pointed out to you?

24 A. Four or five perhaps.

25 Q. What did you know about Dule Tadic?

Page 5084

1 A. I knew he was an instructor or trainer of karate in Kozarac and

2 afterwards that he was the owner of one of the cafes in Kozarac.

3 Q. This cafe in Kozarac that he owned, did you ever go to this cafe?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. How often did you go there?

6 A. Well, sometimes I went Saturdays and Sundays when I would go both

7 Saturday and Sunday to Kozarac, and sometimes I would be there,

8 sometimes I would go only on Saturday, sometimes only on Sundays, but

9 more or less I went there often.

10 Q. The times that you went to Dule Tadic's cafe, was he ever there?

11 A. Yes, but I would not see him every time. Sometimes I would see him.

12 Q. Do you recall the name of that cafe?

13 A. Yes, it was called "Nipon".

14 Q. Where else would you see Dule Tadic besides his cafe?

15 A. I used to see him in the street and I once saw him in front of a

16 restaurant which was called "Nejra" and so in the street and such.

17 Q. Did you ever socialise with Dule Tadic?

18 A. No.

19 Q. During the time that you knew Dule Tadic to see him, did you ever see

20 him with facial hair?

21 A. As far as I recall, sometimes he had a beard, sometimes not. It

22 depended on him.

23 Q. Before the attack on Kozarac, do you recall when you last saw Dule

24 Tadic?

25 A. Well, maybe seven days, maybe 10 days, before the outbreak.

Page 5085

1 Q. Mr. Hodzic, at this time I would like you to look around the

2 courtroom and see if Dule Tadic from Kozarac is in the courtroom. If

3 so, I would ask you to point to him and tell us what he is wearing.

4 A. Yes. The gentleman is sitting between the two policemen. He is

5 dressed in a blue jacket and blue shirt and he has a multi-coloured

6 tie. As far as I could see, he has bags under his eyes.

7 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I would note a correct identification of the

8 accused.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, the record will reflect that the witness

10 identified the accused.

11 MISS HOLLIS: Mr. Hodzic, on 9th July what were you doing before you were

12 taken from your home?

13 A. I was doing some farming work.

14 Q. Who was working with you?

15 A. My father was with me, my uncle and another neighbour whose mother

16 was a Serb and father. We used to call these people Ukrainians,

17 something like that.

18 Q. What is your father's name?

19 A. Esef.

20 Q. Your uncle's name?

21 A. Munib.

22 Q. Is that Munib Hodzic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. On that day, 9th July, were you made to join a column of men moving

25 in the direction of the Trnopolje detention camp?

Page 5086

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Who else from your home had to join that column?

3 A. Myself and my father and from our house, myself and my father.

4 Q. Did your uncle also join the column?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. As you, your father and your uncle moved along in the column, were

7 other Muslim men forced to join the column as well?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you know Zuhdija Turkanovic?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. How did you know him?

12 A. Simply he was my neighbour, some 150 to 200 metres away from my

13 house.

14 Q. What was his ethnic group?

15 A. Muslim.

16 Q. Mr. Hodzic, what is your ethnic group?

17 A. Muslim.

18 Q. Was Zuhdija Turkanovic also taken in the column with you on that day?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. What were the men escorting the column wearing?

21 A. They were all wearing camouflage uniforms.

22 Q. Did you recognise any of the men escorting the column?

23 A. No.

24 Q. On the way to Trnopolje camp, was your uncle Munib called from the

25 column?

Page 5087

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. After he was called out of the column, what did you hear?

3 A. I heard him being -- one of the soldiers that were standing in front

4 of the house called him out and he stepped outside of the column.

5 Q. Then what did you hear?

6 A. Since my uncle that day had a hat on his head, the one who called him

7 out, he said, "You in the hat, come on over here", and he simply got

8 out of the column and I heard him say, "What do you need?" so .....

9 Q. After that what did you hear?

10 A. After some 10 metres, as we kept on moving, I could hear a spray, a

11 round of fire from an automatic weapon.

12 Q. Did you see your uncle Munib Hodzic again after that?

13 A. No, never again.

14 Q. As you moved along the road in the direction of the Trnopolje camp,

15 did you join with another column of men from Elezovici and Matrici?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. After your arrival at Trnopolje camp, were you put on buses and then

18 taken first to Omarska and then on to Keraterm?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you know why you were sent on from Omarska to Keraterm?

21 A. We were told that there was no room for us there.

22 Q. How long were you held in Keraterm?

23 A. From July 9th to, I believe it was, 20th of July.

24 Q. While you were at Keraterm where were you held?

25 A. In room -- the last room of that building. They were called -- room

Page 5088

1 No. 4 it was called.

2 Q. Do you know that Hakija Elezovic?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is he related to you?

5 A. I think he is.

6 Q. While you were at Keraterm camp did you see Hakija Elezovic there?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Where were you taken after Keraterm?

9 A. To Omarska camp.

10 Q. Upon your arrival at Omarska, what happened to you and the other

11 detainees?

12 A. We were beaten as we were walking to the perimeter of the camp.

13 Q. Were you made to assume any particular position?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What position was that?

16 A. Yes, we were lined in a column against a wall and we were facing the

17 wall and leaning with our hands, that is, with three fingers against

18 the wall.

19 Q. With your hands in the Serbian three finger position?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. After you were made to assume that position, what happened to you?

22 A. To my right, there was a man who was writing names and birth dates

23 and father's name and, as he was writing the names down, there were

24 three soldiers behind him and they were beating him.

25 Q. They were beating the man writing the names down or they were beating

Page 5089

1 the detainees?

2 A. The prisoners.

3 Q. With what were you being beaten?

4 A. With feet, hands, batons, rifles -- whatever they wanted to use.

5 Q. Did they seem to concentrate their blows on any particular parts of

6 your body?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What parts of your body were they?

9 A. Since we were facing the wall, those were blows to the back, to the

10 spine or the kidney area.

11 Q. After you were beaten, after you had to lean up against the wall and

12 were beaten, where were you taken?

13 A. To the building which we called the white house.

14 Q. What room in the white house were you taken to?

15 A. To the smallest room which was as you walk into the white house not

16 -- neither left nor right but straight ahead.

17 Q. It was a small room at the end of the corridor as you went into the

18 white house?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. If could I have this photograph marked as Prosecution Exhibit 312 for

21 identification? The colour photograph and three black and white

22 copies. Would you please show that to the Defence? They have been

23 provided a black and white copy. If that could be provided to the

24 witness, please? Mr. Hodzic, do you recognise the room depicted on

25 that photograph?

Page 5090

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What room is that?

3 A. That is that room, the little one that I mentioned just now, the room

4 that is straight at the end of that hallway.

5 Q. If that photograph could be placed on the overhead projector, please?

6 Your Honour, I would offer Prosecution Exhibit 312 for

7 identification.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

9 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibit 312 will be admitted.

11 MISS HOLLIS: Mr. Hodzic, how many people were put in that room when you

12 arrived at Omarska that day?

13 A. All 27 of us that were transferred that day from Keraterm.

14 Q. How crowded was that room with all of you in there?

15 A. It was so that we could barely squeeze inside, simply we were just

16 packed one next to the other.

17 Q. What were the conditions like in that room while you were in there?

18 A. The conditions were bad -- you can say horrible.

19 Q. The windows in the room, were the windows opened or closed for you

20 while you were in there?

21 A. For the most part it was all closed. The window, the little window

22 that you see in the photograph up there, they opened for us, in my

23 opinion, only if they were satisfied with something, when they, sort

24 of, showed mercy.

25 Q. Was Hakija Elezovic in that room with you?

Page 5091

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was Zuhdija Turkanovic in that room with you?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Were you held in that end room until the day you were taken for

5 interrogation?

6 A. Before I went to interrogation, maybe an hour before that, I was

7 moved to another room which was second to the right.

8 Q. So you were held in the end room until, perhaps, an hour before your

9 interrogation?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. While you were still in the end room on that day, did you see Hakija

12 Elezovic taken out from that room for interrogation?

13 A. As far as I remember, he was taken from the small room, not from that

14 other one on the right, and while I was in the small room, Hakija was

15 taken to interrogation from the small room, the one straight ahead.

16 Q. Was he brought back to that room? Did you see him brought back to

17 that room?

18 A. Yes. I did see him.

19 Q. Did you see him taken out once again?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. When you were transferred to the second room on the right of the

22 white house building, was Zuhdija Turkanovic also transferred to that

23 room with you?

24 A. I think he was.

25 Q. Were you taken to the administrative restaurant building to be

Page 5092

1 interrogated that day?

2 A. I was taken to the administrative building but not to the restaurant,

3 but to the upper floor.

4 Q. When you came back from that interrogation, as you approached the

5 white house, did a guard call out to you?

6 A. I could not understand you.

7 Q. When you were on your way back to the white house after your

8 interrogation, did a guard call out to you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Where was that guard when he called out to you?

11 A. He was on the first corner towards the administration building.

12 Q. The first corner of what building?

13 A. That is the first corner next to the building where I was going to be

14 interrogated.

15 Q. As you were going back to the white house, the guard was located at

16 the corner of what building?

17 A. At the corner of the building of the white house, to the first corner

18 which was closest to me on my way back.

19 Q. When the guard called out to you, did you go to the guard?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. As you walked to the guard, did you recognise or did you see other

22 men with him?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. How many other men did you see with that guard?

25 A. Some four or five people there were.

Page 5093

1 Q. Did you recognise any of those men?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Who did you recognise?

4 A. I recognised Dusan Tadic, Dule Tadic.

5 Q. What happened when you got there to where that guard was standing?

6 A. When I approached him he ordered me to walk away from them some 10

7 metres and sit down on the grass and to turn towards, to face them.

8 Q. This guard who ordered you to do that, did you know this guard?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Then you were ordered to go and sit on the grass and turn toward

11 them about 10 metres away?

12 A. No, to face them because they were facing the wall.

13 Q. So as you sat there 10 metres away you were facing these men by the

14 white house?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What happened then after you sat down 10 metres away from these men?

17 A. That guard that ordered me to do this, he asked me where I was from

18 and how old I was.

19 Q. Did you answer?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What happened after that?

22 A. One of the guards, that is, the guard who was standing next to him,

23 ran towards me, quickly towards me, and when he approached me, when he

24 was about two metres from me, he jumped at me as if he was going to

25 kick me, but he did not. He just jumped over me.

Page 5094

1 Q. This guard that ran towards you as though he were going to kick you

2 and then jumped over you, what did he look like?

3 A. He wore a camouflage uniform and he had, as we say, wavy blond hair,

4 not completely wavy, but wavy-ish blond hair.

5 Q. These other men, including Dule Tadic, what were they wearing?

6 A. They also wore camouflage uniforms, except for the first guard who

7 had called me out.

8 Q. What did that guard wear?

9 A. He wore a blue short sleeved shirt and trousers, I think, were also

10 camouflage but I am not completely sure.

11 Q. What happened then after this guard jumped over you?

12 A. The guard who had called me out again asked me -- in fact, he told

13 me, did I say that I was from Trnopolje, and I said, "Yes". Then he

14 told me to get up and to follow him.

15 Q. When you followed him where did you go?

16 A. He was walking in front of me. I was walking behind him and we

17 turned the corner of the white house and found ourselves on the other

18 side of the white house.

19 Q. When you went from one side of the white house to the other, did you

20 go behind the white house or did you go in front of the white house?

21 A. We went from the front where the door was.

22 Q. So you are now on the other side of the white house, on the hangar

23 side of the white house?

24 A. No, not towards the hangar. On the side of that building, on the

25 opposite, there was nothing there. The hangar was straight from the

Page 5095

1 side of the house where the door was.

2 Q. So, if you looked at the white house you are now on the left side of

3 the white house?

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Are you asking him to point where it was?

5 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour.

6 THE WITNESS: If we are looking -- if we are observing the house towards

7 the door from that side, then I was to the left.

8 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I am going to have him mark different areas a

9 little bit later.


11 MISS HOLLIS [To the witness]: When you reached the left side of the

12 white house, what happened then?

13 A. At the corner which was the other corner, the other side of the left

14 side, when I arrived there, there were four bodies which were put one

15 on top of the other.

16 Q. What happened then when you saw these four bodies?

17 A. The guard who had brought me here told me, because these bodies were

18 turned facing down, facing the ground, that I should turn them over so

19 that their faces would be up.

20 Q. Did you do that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. As you turned them over, did the bodies fall from off of each other?

23 A. Yes, I remember that the first body that was at the top I turned to

24 the right and the second to the left, so that the remaining two bodies

25 I just turned over, because there was room for the two of them.

Page 5096

1 Q. Did you recognise any of these four bodies?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Who did you recognise?

4 A. I recognised Salih Elezovic, I recognised Senad Sivac, Ramadanovic

5 (sic) Redzep and Nedzed Causevic.

6 Q. You said that you recognised Senad Sivac, do you know what his

7 occupation was?

8 A. Yes, he was -- he worked as a veterinarian in Kozarac so he was a

9 veterinarian.

10 Q. Do you know if he was from Sivci?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you know whether his first name was Senad or Sejad?

13 A. It is possible, could be Sejad or Senad. I am not sure now, but one

14 of the two, it is for sure.

15 Q. This was a veterinarian from Sivci?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. These men that you saw, to your knowledge, what was their ethnic

18 group?

19 A. They were Muslims.

20 Q. How had you known these men before?

21 A. I knew Salih and Arslanovic. So Arslanovic and Elezovic I knew

22 because they lived in the same hamlet where I was born. Salih

23 otherwise is a relative and a neighbour and Arslanovic was a

24 neighbour.

25 Q. Did you know Mr. Sivac before?

Page 5097

1 A. Yes, he was -- because in that region there were not many

2 veterinarians, I even remember him coming once to our house. I think

3 it was in connection with some disease, some animal disease.

4 Q. How did you know Mr. Causevic?

5 A. I met him while we were being transferred from Keraterm to Omarska

6 and he was together with me in the small room in the white house.

7 Q. Did you see any injuries on these men?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What did you see?

10 A. On Elezovic I saw that under his chin he had a wound which was made,

11 I do not know, which was either a bullet or a stab wound. I do not

12 know now.

13 Q. After you turned these men over, what did the guard ask you?

14 A. He asked me whether I knew these people.

15 Q. What did you reply?

16 A. I told him that I did not know them, even though I did know them but

17 I told him that I did not.

18 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, would you like to break at this time?

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.

20 (4.00 p.m.) (Short Adjournment)

21 (4.20 p.m.).

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, would you like to continue, please?

23 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour. Mr. Hodzic, you had indicated that

24 you knew Mr. Arslanovic because he was a neighbour of yours, is that

25 correct?

Page 5098

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Mr. Arslanovic's first name was what?

3 A. Redzep.

4 Q. It was Redzep Arslanovic that was one of the bodies that you saw on

5 the side of the white house?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You indicated that the guard had asked you if you recognised any of

8 these men and you said no. Why did you tell him no?

9 A. At that moment, I do not know why that was my reply, but it was my

10 reply. I, nevertheless, said that I did not know them.

11 Q. While you were there on the side of the white house, did you take the

12 shoes from any of the dead men there?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Who did you take the shoes from?

15 A. Elezovic's.

16 Q. After you took the shoes from Salih Elezovic did you put the shoes on

17 there?

18 A. No, I had them in my hand.

19 Q. What happened after you took the shoes and had them in your hand?

20 A. I took the shoes and I returned from those bodies some two metres

21 backwards, so that I was standing right up at the wall of the white

22 house, and then a guard approached, the guard who had brought me

23 there. The two of them talked there about something. At that moment

24 the one who had brought me there turned towards me and sent me in, he

25 said, "Get lost, scram, beat it, inside", whereupon I turned and ran

Page 5099

1 to the white house and went in.

2 Q. When you were on the side of the white house where the four bodies

3 were located, what were you concentrating on?

4 A. All the while my eyes and my thoughts, my eyes were focused on those

5 bodies and all my thoughts were focused on those bodies.

6 Q. Did you look around at any other area back there?

7 A. No, I do not think so.

8 Q. From the position you were at on the side of the white house, would

9 you have been able to see behind the white house if you had looked

10 there?

11 A. Yes, well, as I was turning the bodies over I would turn my head just

12 a little bit to see if there was anything behind the white house. Had

13 there been anything, I would have seen it certainly.

14 Q. How long did you look at the area behind the white house?

15 A. I do not think I have looked there, no, not once did I look behind

16 the white house.

17 Q. When you went back into the white house what room did you go into?

18 A. The room that was the second room to the left.

19 Q. So as you entered the white house, you went back to the second room

20 on the left?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. That day, that evening or that night, did you hear the sound of any

23 trucks near the white house?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. The next day did you see those four bodies on the side of the white

Page 5100

1 house?

2 A. No.

3 Q. When you saw Dule Tadic as you stood at the corner of the white house

4 near those men, how far away from you was he?

5 A. Whilst I was sitting on the grass, it could have been some 10 metres

6 or so.

7 Q. While you were standing at the corner of the white house looking at

8 those men, how far away would Dule Tadic have been from you?

9 A. About three metres.

10 Q. As you sat about 10 metres away from Dule Tadic and the other men,

11 did you have a clear view of Dule Tadic or was your view obstructed by

12 anything?

13 A. No, I could see him.

14 Q. You could see him clearly?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you recall what he was wearing that day? You have indicated a

17 camouflage uniform. Do you recall the colours in that uniform?

18 A. Well, those colours were mostly brown, green, mixed with a coffee

19 colour. As far as I can recall, they are those typical military

20 uniforms.

21 Q. Do you recall on that day whether he had any facial hair?

22 A. Maybe he had not shaved for two or three days, so it was about a

23 millimetre stubble.

24 Q. I am going to ask you at this time to go around to this model in

25 front of you and to point to the end room you were in and also to

Page 5101

1 attach some pieces of paper to the model. What I would like you to do

2 is to take your headphones off here, then when you come around to the

3 model, to put the headphones on that are located on the bench in front

4 of you. If you could come up to my direction a little, please? If

5 you can look into the white house and if you can put that pointer in

6 the room in the end where you stayed until the day of your

7 interrogation?

8 A. [The witness indicated on the model].

9 Q. There is a number in that room, if you could tell us what that number

10 is and when you do that please turn around and speak to the microphone

11 behind you.

12 A. This is room A5.

13 Q. If you could come a little bit toward me, please, so the Judges can

14 have an unobstructed view? I am going to ask you to place certain

15 pieces of paper on the model. First, I would like you to place the

16 letter "W" on the model where you were when the guard first called you

17 out.

18 A. [The witness indicated on the model].

19 Q. If you would please place a "W1" in the position you were as you

20 stood at the right corner of the white house, the corner near the

21 restaurant building?

22 A. [The witness indicated on the model].

23 Q. If you could place the letter "T" where Dule Tadic was when you saw

24 him that day?

25 A. [The witness indicated on the model].

Page 5102

1 Q. Then if you could place "W2" where you were as you sat 10 metres away

2 from Dule and Tadic and the other guards?

3 A. [The witness indicated on the model].

4 Q. Then if we look at the other side of the white house, if you could

5 place the letter "B" where you saw the four bodies?

6 A. [The witness indicated on the model].

7 Q. Thank you. If you could return to your seat, please? Mr. Hodzic you

8 have indicated that when you returned to the white house you returned

9 to the second room on the left. When you returned to this room did

10 you see Zuhdija Turkanovic in that room?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What was his condition when you saw him?

13 A. He was in a very poor state. He was beaten up.

14 Q. What did you do when you saw your friend there?

15 A. He was, because of all that pain he simply asked for help, not from

16 anyone in particular, but he was crying, "Help me", and at that moment

17 I tried to comfort him telling him that everything would be all right.

18 I even put his head on my feet, on my legs, but after some 10 minutes

19 or so he died.

20 Q. After Zuhdija Turkanovic died, did other detainees take his body from

21 the room?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you know how soon after he died his body was taken from the room?

24 A. I do not understand the question.

25 Q. How soon after your friend died did the detainees take his body from

Page 5103

1 the room?

2 A. Maybe some 10 or 15 minutes.

3 Q. To your recollection, did you see Hakija Elezovic in Omarska after

4 you saw the body of his son, Salih?

5 A. I did not see him after that. Since he was taken for interrogation

6 for a second time, I have not seen him.

7 Q. Were you taken from Omarska to Manjaca camp on 6th August?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. On the way to Manjaca, do you recall women and children yelling at

10 the buses as you passed?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What were they yelling at the buses?

13 A. The children and women were yelling, "Why are you driving them away,

14 kill them, why are you driving them there?"

15 Q. How long were you held at Manjaca camp?

16 A. From 6th August until 18th December.

17 Q. Where did you go from Manjaca?

18 A. To Karlovac or, to be more precise, to Croatia, to Karlovac.

19 Q. Prior to the attack on Kozarac on 24th May, were you a member of any

20 anti-Serb military or paramilitary organisation?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Were you a member of any organised anti-Serb resistance group?

23 A. No.

24 Q. After the attack on Kozarac on 24th May, did you become a member of

25 any such group?

Page 5104

1 A. No.

2 Q. Mr. Hodzic, as a result of attacks in opstina Prijedor and the camps

3 that were established there, are any members of your family missing or

4 killed?

5 A. My uncle was killed, and the son of another uncle has also been

6 killed, and of my family proper, that is, mother and father, brothers

7 and sisters, no.

8 MISS HOLLIS: No further questions, your Honour.

9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Cross-examination Mr. Kay?

10 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour.

11 Cross-Examined by MR. KAY

12 Q. Mr. Hodzic, it seems that you have not spent much time with Dusko

13 Tadic before the conflict?

14 A. No.

15 Q. He is not a man with whom you sat at a cafe?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You have not been into his house?

18 A. No, never.

19 Q. He has not been to your house?

20 A. No.

21 Q. You have spent no time in his company on any occasion?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Had you only, in fact, seen Dusko Tadic two or three times at his

24 cafe?

25 A. No, I would see him when I happened to be there. I do not remember

Page 5105

1 how many times exactly, but when I came there I saw him because that

2 coffee bar is not particularly big.

3 Q. When you recollect this day in Omarska when you had to move those

4 bodies by the white house, can you remember the description of the man

5 you called Dusko Tadic, what he looked like?

6 A. I did not see Mr. Tadic when I was turning the bodies, but when I was

7 on the other side of the white house, and when I saw him there, he was

8 wearing a camouflage uniform, had an automatic rifle, as far as I can

9 recall, across his right shoulder. He was -- he had more weight and,

10 as far as I could see, he was, he had, he had -- he was somewhat

11 tanned, probably from sun or something, as compared with the last time

12 I saw him. The last time I saw him he was somewhat paler in the face,

13 that is, before the war, before the conflict.

14 Q. What did his face look like?

15 A. As I have said, he was somewhat tanned. He must have been exposed to

16 the sun somewhere, so that is why he was -- his complexion was

17 slightly darker.

18 Q. Was not the face of this man red as if he had some kind of facial

19 irritation?

20 A. I do not think so.

21 Q. Did he not have short, light hair and a high forehead, this man that

22 you say was Dusko Tadic outside the white house?

23 A. I do not understand the question.

24 Q. Did he have short, light hair and a high forehead, this man you say

25 was Dusko Tadic outside the white house?

Page 5106

1 A. High forehead, that is true, just as I recognised him here, and his

2 hair, yes, his hair was short and it, sort of, was towards the black.

3 At that time it was lighter, but generally it was closer to the

4 black.

5 Q. Do you remember giving a description of this man in January 1995 when

6 you were questioned by the investigators for the Prosecution?

7 A. As far as I can remember, I -- no, I again described him the same

8 way as I did then.

9 Q. Perhaps you would like to look at a statement that you gave over

10 three days on 6th, 9th and 10th January 1995, taken through an

11 interpreter and an interpreter on behalf of the Registry of the

12 Tribunal? Perhaps you would like to look at this statement in your

13 own language? Your Honour, I tender it as Defence 31. I do not know

14 if the Prosecution have a copy? They do, thank you. [To the witness]:

15 This is a translation of that statement in your own language, but you

16 were interviewed in your own language, were you not? I think that was

17 not translated. You were interviewed in your own language, is that

18 not right?

19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Hodzic, can you hear the question?


21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Were you interviewed in your own language at the

22 time of giving that statement?

23 THE WITNESS: Yes, with the assistance of an interpreter.

24 MR. KAY: Yes. You signed the statement that you gave the people

25 questioning you. If you would like to look at this document which I

Page 5107

1 tender as Defence Exhibit 31B and the other one will be 31A. If you

2 look at the back of that document which has just been placed before

3 you, you will see your signature on a witness acknowledgment dated

4 10th January 1995 right on the last page. That is your signature, is

5 it not?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. When you signed that you said that you were giving a true statement,

8 do you remember that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And that the statement had been read over to you in the Bosnian

11 language?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. If you would like to turn to page 7 of the statement that is in your

14 own language, you will see a passage highlighted in yellow. What I

15 would like you to do is to read that out loud in your own language.

16 A. "When I saw Tadic during my case he was wearing a camouflage uniform

17 and a pistol. He had nothing on his head. He had light, shortly cut

18 hair and a high forehead. I do not think he had either moustache or a

19 beard, but he looked as if he had some kind of infection and his face

20 was red. I did not have an opportunity to look at him or the guards

21 from close quarters".

22 Q. Thank you. That is the description that you gave then of the man you

23 said was Dusko Tadic sitting with those guards by the white house?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. A man with short cut, light hair and a high forehead, is that not

Page 5108

1 right?

2 A. Yes, just as I described him now.

3 Q. No facial hair, no moustache and no beard?

4 A. As far as facial hair is concerned, the beard, as I said, maybe it

5 was one millimetre long, maybe two or three, but why they wrote that

6 he had no facial hair, that is their thing.

7 Q. You gave that description to investigators for the Prosecution in

8 1995?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. The person talking to you read back that statement that you gave in

11 your own language so that you could hear it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You signed a certificate acknowledging that, is that not right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Not only did the interpreter sign the certificate as well, but two

16 investigators for the Prosecution signed a certificate. They were

17 there at the same time, were they not?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. That is the description you gave in 1995 when asked to describe the

20 man you called Dusko Tadic?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Is there any reason why you say in this courtroom now that he had a

23 growth of beard of about one millimetre? Why you are saying that now

24 and said something different in January 1995? Any explanation you can

25 give?

Page 5109

1 A. Yes, it is possible that I told them then that he did not have a

2 beard because, in my view, when somebody is unshaven two or three

3 days, for me, that does not mean that they have a beard.

4 Q. What about the facial irritation, the face being red?

5 A. As far as that is concerned, that too, that I only said it then only,

6 but now I said that it was from the sun, but I could have given both

7 examples at that time, whether he had some kind of an infection or it

8 was from the sun, he was sunburnt.

9 Q. These men also sitting outside the white house were guards at Omarska

10 camp, is that right?

11 A. Yes, I think two of them I had seen before there in the camp and I

12 think that they were guards, and for the others, no.

13 Q. Did you know a guard in Omarska whose name was Beka a guard with a

14 red mark on his face?

15 A. No.

16 Q. When you went from the side of the white house to the other side and

17 you moved the bodies, did you see Hakija Elezovic there?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Was he not lying down on the ground next to his son Salih?

20 A. No.

21 Q. When you went back into the white house did Hakija Elezovic speak to

22 you and say you could have Salih's shoes?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you tell Hakija Elezovic that you had seen Dusko or Dule Tadic at

25 the white house on that day in Manjaca or elsewhere?

Page 5110

1 A. No.

2 Q. Were you at Manjaca with Hakija Elezovic?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Did you ever see Hakija Elezovic again after that afternoon in the

5 white house?

6 A. No, I only saw him this year, since then.

7 Q. Are you telling the truth about this? Did you see him longer ago

8 than this year and more near the time of your time in Omarska?

9 A. No, I did not see him since the day when he was called in for the

10 second time to interrogation. I never saw him until this year.

11 Q. But you went to Manjaca, did you not, after your release from

12 Omarska?

13 A. No, I was not released from Omarska. They transferred us to Manjaca

14 in buses on August 6th.

15 Q. Very well, but you went to Manjaca where you were still a prisoner

16 for several months after you had been in Omarska?

17 A. I did not understand the question.

18 Q. You went to Manjaca as a prisoner after you had been in Omarska?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you speak there to other people about what you had seen behind

21 the white house?

22 A. No, I did not talk because in that moment it was more important how

23 to find some bread to eat or some clothes to wear than to talk about

24 it. It was not entering my mind at all.

25 Q. Hakija Elezovic knew you though, did not he?

Page 5111

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. He would not get you confused with anyone else in the white house?

3 A. No, that would be impossible for him to confuse me.

4 Q. You see, what I suggest to you is this. The man you thought was

5 Dule Tadic of this description, you then told Hakija Elezovic that he

6 had been there and killed his son Salih?

7 A. No, I did not tell him that.

8 Q. You were wrong about the identity of that person by the white house?

9 A. I think I was not.

10 Q. And that is why you described him that way in 1995?

11 A. I do not understand.

12 Q. Let me ask you this then. Senad or Sejad Sivac, do you know what the

13 name of the person was, whether it was Senad or Sejad?

14 A. Senad or Sejad, one of those two names.

15 Q. You knew this person, did you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You did not know his first name?

18 A. Well, I said his last name is Sivac and his first name is Senad or

19 Sejad. OK, I can agree to Sejad.

20 Q. I have just one other matter to ask you about. Whilst you were in

21 Keraterm camp you had seen a person called Zoran Zigic, is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Have you seen him on a motor bike?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. KAY: Thank you. Your Honour, I tender Exhibits 31A and B. I have

Page 5112

1 tendered them and now I offer them to the Court as Exhibits.

2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?

3 MISS HOLLIS: No, your Honour.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Defence Exhibits 31A and 31B will be admitted.

5 Redirect, Miss Hollis?

6 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour.

7 Re-Examined by MISS HOLLIS.

8 Q. Mr. Hodzic, the statement that the Defence referred to, that

9 statement was read to you in your own language, is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you read, did you yourself read the English version of that

12 statement?

13 A. No.

14 Q. So you relied upon the interpreter's reading of that statement to

15 you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You said here that you described Dule Tadic to the investigators as

18 you had described him here in this courtroom today. Here today you

19 said he had hair that was closer to black, is that correct?

20 A. Yes, as far as hair is concerned, it could be light, but maybe it was

21 lighter from the sun. But his hair sort of went more in the direction

22 of black.

23 MISS HOLLIS: No further questions.


25 MR. KAY: Nothing arises, your Honour.

Page 5113

1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mr. Hodzic being

2 permanently excused?

3 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Hodzic, you are permanently excused. You are

5 free to leave. Thank you for coming. You may leave now. Thank you.

6 (The witness withdrew).

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: The next witness is the witness that will have

8 distortion of his image?

9 MR. NIEMANN: That is right, your Honour.

10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So rather than begin with that witness, because we

11 would have to take a recess in order to set up, we will begin with

12 that witness on Tuesday when we resume.

13 There are a few matters, though, that we can discuss regarding

14 our schedule. You have four witnesses left, Mr. Niemann? I think

15 four.

16 MR. NIEMANN: I will just get my list, your Honour.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You estimate we will finish on Wednesday?

18 MR. NIEMANN: Four witnesses, your Honour, yes. One witness, Witness L,

19 will take a full day I think.

20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I understand. The others each 1.5 hours?

21 MR. NIEMANN: Yes.

22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: With cross perhaps we will finish Wednesday, if not

23 Thursday, I estimate with the Prosecution's case in-chief.

24 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Then from our discussion I guess earlier this week

Page 5114

1 you had indicated that the Defence would be filing a motion to dismiss

2 or a motion regarding some or all of the counts.

3 MR. KAY: Yes.

4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You expected, though, that that motion may not be

5 ready until after we recessed or adjourned.

6 MR. KAY: Yes.

7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is that still your estimate

8 MR. KAY: It is the case because we still have to wait to hear what is

9 coming. There has been a variety of witnesses just at the end of the

10 case, your Honour.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We had agreed that we would recess for two weeks for

12 the Defence to investigate to respond to the Prosecution's case, and

13 the Defence I believe had suggested that three weeks might be better

14 for you. We had not responded to that, the Chamber had not. What is

15 your position regarding a three-week recess, Mr. Niemann? The Chamber

16 is inclined to grant that request.

17 MR. NIEMANN: We are not in opposition to that, your Honour.

18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So we will stand in recess or adjourn for a

19 three-week period after the Prosecution concludes its case in-chief.

20 MR. KAY: Yes.

21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: When you file your motion the Prosecution will need

22 to respond. We have a standing order that we use in these proceedings

23 that allows each side 14 days to respond to a motion.

24 MR. KAY: Yes.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So I am wondering when you would file that because

Page 5115

1 we would certainly want to have it and then have the Prosecution

2 response before we return for our three-week recess, which means that

3 you would have to file it about a week, no later than a week after we

4 adjourn next Wednesday. So you think that is possible?

5 MR. KAY: We were aiming to do it by the Wednesday of that week. That is

6 how what we thought. Once the case ends it would take about a week to

7 put together.

8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That sounds about right. Then will you want oral

9 argument on that motion?

10 MR. KAY: We think it would be appropriate for oral argument.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It sounds like we can receive it just in time to

12 give the Prosecution 14 days to respond to the motion in writing, and

13 then schedule oral argument when we return from the recess.

14 MR. KAY: Yes.

15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: If you would keep that in mind in terms of your

16 submitting the motion. Then can you give us an estimate at this time,

17 depending upon how the Chamber rules on the motion, how much time the

18 Defence will need?

19 MR. KAY: I have considered this carefully and think it will be around

20 about four to six weeks for the Defence case. It depends to a great

21 extent on whether the logistics are successful at the Banja Luka end

22 in relation to the video link testimony, your Honour.

23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We are still endeavouring, and I cannot tell you how

24 difficult, we are struggling to accomplish that. As we had indicated,

25 the rules do not call for video conferencing. They call for

Page 5116

1 depositions by way of video. We have been attempting to resolve that

2 request or to satisfy that request. I do not have an answer for you

3 today. We are going to meet again when we adjourn tonight. We will

4 know more next week and we will able to tell you more about that next

5 week on Tuesday. So we will see about that.

6 Is there anything else we need to discuss? If we go forward

7 with the testimony of some of the Defence witnesses by way of video

8 conference, we would have to develop some guidelines procedures for

9 that. We have talked about it informally and we have received a

10 proposal from the Registry. The Chamber will look at that and discuss

11 that with you also next week before we leave you, before we lose you.

12 So that even though we will be continuing probably to work on the

13 video conferencing equipment trying to get it in place, I do not

14 think it will be finally accomplished until after we adjourn, but if

15 we can at least get some agreement between the parties on the

16 guidelines to be used for the conducting of the video conferencing,

17 the video conference testimony, it would help.

18 Do you know the order -- without telling me the exact order,

19 but do you anticipate that you would need the video conferencing

20 equipment immediately when you were to begin your case?

21 MR. KAY: I think we will be starting with live witnesses. I have very

22 left it in abeyance depending upon when it is in place so that, if

23 necessary, we can go through all the live witnesses first to give

24 still more time to accomplish the video link.

25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, is there anything you want to add at

Page 5117

1 this point?


3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Anything else Mr. Kay?

4 MR. KAY: We are grateful for the endeavours everyone is making on our

5 behalf.

6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We are trying. Just in terms of the guidelines, we

7 would suggest that the parties get together really and try to reach

8 some agreement. There are some overall parameters, though, that need

9 to be resolved and that would be whether Defence counsel would be

10 there at the location present conducting the direct and whether the

11 Prosecutor would be there conducting cross-examination, or whether it

12 was your intent to use the equipment with Defence counsel being here

13 in court. Which was your desire?

14 MR. KAY: It was our desire that as much of the proceedings should be in

15 front of you as the Judges and the Defendant here and that the

16 questioning should take place within this courtroom.

17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Both from the Defence and the Prosecution?

18 MR. KAY: And the Prosecution, yes. It seemed to us rather more

19 satisfactory in relation to the conduct of the proceedings.


21 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, I have done this before and it creates a

22 problem because you have exhibits and you really do need someone there

23 on the scene to handle the exhibits for the witnesses. I do not know

24 whether the Defence may wish not to use exhibits, but it may be that

25 in cross-examination we may want to put exhibits to the witness, and

Page 5118

1 there are problems with not having anyone there at the scene.

2 Also you need to have some means of satisfying yourself that

3 the witness is in the room on his own and proceeding that way. The

4 way we resolved it once before when I did it was that a represent of

5 both sides is there, but in fact the examination is conducted in the

6 court. So that the representative is there and if there are issues

7 such as exhibits or any problems that arise on the scene, then a

8 member of the team in Banja Luka can take over and resolve it at that

9 point. But it is very difficult if it is all tried to be controlled

10 from a remote locality.

11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: As I indicated, the Chamber does not have too many,

12 I suppose we do not have too many firm opinions about it. I can see

13 advantages both ways, I suppose. If I were doing the questioning as a

14 lawyer I would want to be closer to the witness, but then of course

15 the accused is here. So you want to be close to the accused. But I

16 do understand the concerns you have raised about the exhibits and

17 that, of course, may work better if there is a representative there at

18 the location where perhaps that could be handled, and hope that if we

19 are able to get equipment that it is of such a level that you will

20 still have the rapport that you may want with the witness.

21 It may be a little premature. I hope not, because we are

22 working very hard. If we can adjourn five minutes early, then we will

23 have five minutes to get on the telephone and continue our effort.

24 So, we will adjourn then until Tuesday at 10 a.m.

25 (5.25 p.m.)

Page 5119

1 (The court adjourned until Tuesday, 13th August 1996)