1 WWednesday, 25th September 1996.
2 (Hearing in closed session)
3 (10.00 a.m.)
13 Pages 6272-6277 redacted in closed session
28 (10.26 a.m.)
1 (HHearing in open session)
2 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I call witness X.
3 Witness X, called.
4 Examined by MR. KAY
5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you have the oath? Would you please take
6 the oath that is being handed to you?
7 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak the
8 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
9 (The witness was sworn)
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated.
11 Q. Madam, in Court you shall be known as "witness X". Can you
12 confirm the following details: do you live in [redacted]?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. For how long have you lived there?
15 A. Since I was born.
16 Q. Are you married or single?
17 A. Married.
18 Q. What is your religious and ethnic background?
19 A. [redacted].
20 MR. KAY: Your Honour, we have given personal details here that will
21 need to be redacted and I believe a redaction mark has been
22 set. Your Honour, if the details concerning the place where the
23 witness lives could be removed from the public record?
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, that request will be granted.
25 MR. KAY: As well as the religious and ethnic background?
26 THE WITNESS: If possible.
27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: When you say "public record", you mean the
1 MR. KAY: The transcript that is to be released and the video.
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?
3 MR. NIEMANN: No objection, your Honour.
4 THE WITNESS: No.
5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That will be granted.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Could we please ask the witness to speak into the
8 MR. KAY: Madam, if you would come a little bit closer to the
9 microphones, if your chair could be brought forward a little
10 bit, because what you tell us has to be heard by the Court and
11 translated for us. Do you know Dusko Tadic?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. For how long have you known him?
14 A. Over 20 years.
15 Q. Were you friendly with the Tadic family?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Were you related to the Tadic family?
18 A. No.
19 Q. [redacted]
20 A. [redacted]
22 Q. [redacted]
23 A. [redacted]
24 Q. [redacted]
25 A. [redacted]
26 Q. [redacted]
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We are in open session. Of course, if you
4 truly want it redacted -- you can handle it any way you want.
5 I do not understand why the religious and ethnic background
6 should be redacted. For all of the other witnesses we have
7 asked that question, even those that have been protected, even
8 those who were anonymous. I do not understand that. Then just
9 in terms of the redaction, well, you can handle it however you
11 MR. KAY: It is because this witness is capable of being identified
12 through that information.
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Through the religious and ethnic background?
14 MR. KAY: Yes, as a result of where she lives currently.
15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: If that is redacted, where she lives currently,
16 then is the religious and ethnic background relevant? I guess
17 my question is that in the motion that you filed at the end of
18 the Prosecutor's case in chief, you had indicated that all of
19 the witnesses had a bias because of their religious and ethnic
20 background. I am wondering now whether this is something at
21 least relevant for the Trial Chamber. That is why I asked
22 whether you wanted it redacted just from the video or from the
23 transcript as well.
24 MR. KAY: It is information for the Trial Chamber. It may be
25 important to know about the background of this witness, but
26 experience over the last few days has taught us to be very
27 careful about the information we leave on the record concerning
28 witnesses. We have had great concerns which had to be acted
1 upon last night.
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: As I have indicated, in terms of the ethnic and
3 the religious background, I do not understand the reason, but
4 certainly as to the others, Mr. Niemann, what is your position?
5 But I have granted it as to the religious and ethnic
7 MR. KAY: Thank you.
8 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honours. In relation to it being material
9 available to the Chamber, then we have no objection.
10 MR. KAY: Thank you. I am proceeding with an abundance of caution
11 here, your Honour, because of our experience.
12 [To the witness]: How well did you know Dusko Tadic?
13 A. Quite well enough. I knew him very well.
14 Q. Before the conflict started in Kozarac in 1992, how regularly
15 would you see him?
16 A. Very often.
17 Q. Whereabouts would that be, where you live or did you visit the
18 family home in Kozarac?
19 A. There were two cases of deaths in our family and he came to see
21 Q. Had you visited his family home in Kozarac?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you know his mother, Staka?
24 A. I did.
25 Q. Did you know his wife, Mira?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Did you have a friendship with Mira that was separate from your
28 friendship with Dusko?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you see the children of Dusko Tadic and his wife Mira?
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. Your husband, did he know the Tadic family?
5 A. Yes, they were very good friends.
6 Q. When building works were undertaken on Dusko Tadic's family
7 home, did your husband have anything to do with that?
8 A. Yes, he did.
9 Q. What did he do?
10 A. He joined in when work was going on there and helped.
11 Q. Can you remember when that was?
12 A. In 1990.
13 Q. In 1992 did you become aware of a conflict in Kozarac?
14 A. Personally not, but I heard some rumours but we did not know
15 anything for certain, but there was talk.
16 Q. Were you in Banja Luka at that time?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. The rumours and talk that you heard about the conflict in
19 Kozarac, do you know if that was at the time that the conflict
20 was happening or later?
21 A. A little before the conflict there were rumours, but we did not
22 know exactly what was happening.
23 Q. What were the rumours that you heard a little before the
25 A. That there were disturbances. We did not know exactly what kind
26 because we did not have any detailed information.
27 Q. Do you know at the time of the conflict in Kozarac where Dusko
28 Tadic was?
1 A. He was in my house.
2 Q. Can you tell us, first of all, about the Tadic family, his wife
3 Mira, the children? Do you know where they were at that time?
4 A. At the beginning of May they were in Banja Luka in Starcevica.
5 Q. Where is Starcevica?
6 A. It is a district in Banja Luka.
7 Q. Do you know whereabouts in Starcevica they were?
8 A. No, I do not know because I did not visit them. We were in
9 touch by telephone.
10 Q. When you say the beginning of May, are you able to pinpoint that
11 by a date or perhaps a week in May when that would have been?
12 A. I think it was around 10th May.
13 Q. Did you see the Tadic family, being Mira and the children, in
14 those days in May before the conflict in Kozarac?
15 A. No.
16 Q. I will just repeat the question. Did you see the Tadic family
17 before the conflict in Kozarac during that time in May in Banja
19 A. Yes. On 23rd she came to visit me and she spent the night
20 together with her whole family.
21 Q. When you say she spent the night with her family, who was that?
22 Who was there?
23 A. Dusko's mother, his wife, the two children and Dusko.
24 Q. Did you know in relation to that date when the conflict in
25 Kozarac started?
26 A. We learnt afterwards, I think it was a Sunday, a Sunday
27 afternoon, I think that must have been the 24th.
28 Q. Why did Dusko and his family come to see you then on 23rd?
1 A. They came because the conditions of life in the house in which
2 they were accommodated were very poor.
3 Q. Which house was that? Where were they staying?
4 A. I think it belonged to the Alic family, but I do not know the
5 first name.
6 Q. Which house is that? Where is that house?
7 A. In Starcevica.
8 Q. That is in Banja Luka, is it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you know how long the family had been living in Banja Luka
12 A. I think about one and a half to two months. I am not sure, but
13 I think that is about right.
14 Q. Dusko Tadic, when you saw him on 23rd May, do you know where he
15 been before, where he had been living?
16 A. He brought his family at the beginning of May and then I think
17 he went back to Kozarac and came back again on 23rd May.
18 Q. What was the reason for why you can remember these details about
19 when they came to stay with you?
20 A. They came about 8.30. They were highly depressed. Dusko said
21 that he did not want to put on a uniform because he did not want
22 to participate in the attack against Kozarac, against his
24 Q. How long did they stay at your house for?
25 A. Two days.
26 Q. Who else was in your house at this time? You have mentioned the
27 Tadic family. You were there. Was there anyone else in the
28 house as well?
1 A. My husband, my mother-in-law (but she died) and no one else.
2 Q. You said that the conditions were poor in the house that they
3 were living in in Starcevica. Did they tell you anything about
4 those conditions?
5 A. They did not have the essentials in order to be able to live.
6 They would have to purchase things and to clean it up because
7 there was no one living there, apparently, for some time.
8 Q. The house where you live, is that a comfortable and modern home?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. When you saw Dusko with his family on that occasion and you told
11 us that they stayed for two days, when they left, do you know
12 where they went or where they were going to after they left your
14 A. They went to that flat.
15 Q. Is that the one at Starcevica that you told us about?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. How often did you see the Tadic family in Banja Luka?
18 A. Very often, very often.
19 Q. Do you know how long Dusko Tadic stayed in Banja Luka for?
20 A. When they left my house on 24th they came again a week later on
21 a Sunday for lunch.
22 Q. Was Dusko Tadic with his family?
23 A. Yes, he was.
24 Q. For how long did Mira Tadic and the children and the mother live
25 in Banja Luka?
26 A. I cannot tell you exactly, but I will try. I think at the end
27 of June they went to Prijedor and Dusko got an apartment there.
28 Whether it was June or July, I cannot tell you exactly.
1 I cannot remember.
2 Q. Did Dusko Tadic remain with his family in Banja Luka, do you
3 know, until they left and moved to Prijedor?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did there come a time when Dusko Tadic left Banja Luka?
6 A. I do not believe so. I am not aware of it.
7 Q. Did Dusko Tadic have any work in Banja Luka at this time when
8 you saw him there?
9 A. He was working in Cajevac, but I think in that period that he
10 was not working.
11 Q. Were you aware of any job that Dusko Tadic had, for instance,
12 later on in the year?
13 A. I do not know.
14 Q. You told us that you did not visit the house in Starcevica where
15 they lived. Was there any reason for that?
16 A. Yes, there was because at that time it was very difficult to
17 move around in Banja Luka.
18 Q. Was this house in Starcevica or this place where they lived --
19 I think you called it an apartment -- in a different part of the
21 A. Yes, it was.
22 Q. When you saw Dusko Tadic in Banja Luka, was that when he was on
23 his own or in the company of his family or with anyone else when
24 you saw him, during this time around the conflict in Kozarac?
25 A. He came twice with his whole family and a couple of times he
26 came by with his brothers, Ljubo Tadic -- with Ljubo Tadic who
27 also lives in Starcevica.
28 Q. Were the brothers and Dusko friendly with your husband?
1 A. Yes, they were.
2 Q. When you saw Dusko Tadic at this time in May 1992, could you
3 tell at all whether he was involved in politics?
4 A. No.
5 Q. How was his behaviour? How did he present himself to you when
6 you spoke to him?
7 A. Absolutely normal, quite normal.
8 Q. Was he dressed in military uniform in any way?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Or was he carrying a weapon, any form of gun?
11 A. No.
12 MR. KAY: Thank you. That is all I ask, your Honour.
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Cross-examination, Mr. Niemann?
14 Cross-examined by MR. NIEMANN
15 Q. Madam, when Mr. Tadic and his family came to see you on 23rd
16 May, how did they get to your house?
17 A. They came around 9 o'clock in the evening, quite late. They
18 came on foot and were very tired.
19 Q. So that was the night-time of 23rd?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. They then left on 24th, the next day?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Had you seen the Tadic family prior to that date, actually met
25 A. We only talked on the phone.
26 Q. Did you talk to his wife, Mira?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Do you know whether Mira was working at the time in Banja Luka?
1 A. No.
2 Q. You say that they stayed there until the end of June. Is that
3 the end of June/early July, is it?
4 A. I think so, yes, I think so.
5 Q. During all of that time, so far as you know, Dule Tadic was not
6 in any form of employment or working?
7 A. No.
8 Q. At no stage during that time did you ever see him in a military
9 uniform or any other form of uniform, military or police
11 A. No.
12 Q. At no stage during June did you see him carrying weapons of any
14 A. No, no.
15 Q. When your husband assisted in the building work that was carried
16 on at Tadic's house, that was the restaurant they were building,
17 was it?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Or perhaps I should have called it a cafe?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. A lot of people from the town participated in that, did they
22 not? The town of Kozarac assisted with that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. That included Muslim people as well as Croats, possibly, and
25 Serbian people as well?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Madam, I am wondering if you would look at the piece of paper
28 I am now going to show you -- if it could be shown to the
1 Defence first -- and also would you confirm whether or not that
2 is your name? (Handed). Show it to the Defence first.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Madam, I am wondering if you could write down the name of your
5 husband on that piece of paper for me, please? Thank you.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, may the Judges see that?
7 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. (Handed). Madam, does your husband
8 have a christening certificate?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I am not sure that this may perhaps need to be written down,
11 but I would like you to tell us the religion of your husband.
12 If it is easier for it to be written down, then I will hand you
13 a piece of paper and you might do that for me.
14 MR. KAY: Could I just see that other piece of paper? Thank you.
15 MR. NIEMANN [To the witness]: With a pen could you write down your
16 husband's religion? Perhaps show that to the Defence and then
17 perhaps bring it to me. Madam, do you recall an occasion when
18 Dule Tadic requested a copy of your husband's christening
20 A. No.
21 Q. Do you recall on any occasion when details of your husband's
22 religion were requested by Dule Tadic or a member of his family?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Madam, have you ever given an interview to the media about the
25 circumstances of what happened in Banja Luka and the area in
27 A. No, no.
28 Q. I think you said that the Tadic family came to Banja Luka on
1 10th May, is that right?
2 A. Yes, it is.
3 Q. What day of the week was that?
4 A. I cannot remember.
5 Q. How do you remember the day?
6 A. When the 10th was?
7 Q. How do you remember it was that date, the 10th?
8 A. Mira told me when she came that it was around the 10th.
9 Q. When did she tell you that?
10 A. When she came to me on 23rd.
11 Q. She has not discussed that with you since that time, has she,
12 the particular date, when she first arrived in Banja Luka?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Have you seen Mira Tadic at all since 1992?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Have you ever spoken to her on the telephone?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Do you know where she is now? Do not tell me where it is, just
19 answer if you know where she is?
20 A. I do.
21 Q. But you have not seen her since 1992?
22 A. No.
23 Q. At no stage did you speak to Dule Tadic himself on the telephone
24 during 1992?
25 A. No.
26 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions, your Honour.
27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
28 Re-examined by MR. KAY
1 Q. Witness X, in answer to my questions you said it was about
2 10th May when the Tadic family arrived in Banja Luka?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you have any way of connecting that date with other events at
5 the time?
6 A. All I know is that I felt that something ugly was going to
7 happen in Kozarac and they had to leave because they had
8 received threats. They had been threatened that they had to
9 leave Kozarac.
10 MR. KAY: Thank you. I ask no further questions. Do your Honours
11 have any questions?
12 MR. NIEMANN: No.
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection to the witness being permanently
15 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour, except that I think I would like to
16 tender that sheet of paper with the name and details on it, if
17 that could be a Prosecution Exhibit?
18 MR. KAY: It should be in a sealed envelope, your Honour.
19 MR. NIEMANN: It is 350 under seal, your Honour.
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection, Mr. Kay?
21 MR. KAY: There is no objection, your Honour.
22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 350 will be admitted under seal. Is there any
23 objection to the witness being permanently excused,
24 Mr. Niemann?
25 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.
26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. You are permanently excused. That means
27 you are free to leave. Thank you for coming.
1 MR. KAY: Before the witness leaves, the screens have to be placed
2 down. Thank you.
3 (The witness withdrew)
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, would you call your next witness?
5 MR. KAY: Your Honour, the next is Dragolje Balta.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: This will be in open session.
7 MR. KAY: This is open session.
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We have to raise the blinds again.
9 MR. KAY: And remove the protected screen, your Honour. Dragolje
10 Balta, please, your Honour.
11 MR. DRAGOLJE BALTA, called.
12 Examined by MR. KAY
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you please take the oath that is
14 being given to you?
15 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak the
16 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
17 (The witness was sworn)
18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. Thank you. You may be seated.
19 MR. KAY: Is your name Dragolje Balta?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you live in Banja Luka?
22 A. I do.
23 Q. What is your occupation? What is your job?
24 A. My job, I am a locksmith. I look after locks and things.
25 Q. What is your ethnic background?
26 A. Serb.
27 Q. Have you always lived in Banja Luka?
28 A. Yes.
1 Q. Have you ever been mobilized in the JNA?
2 A. Well -- no, to a certain extent.
3 Q. Have you ever done service in the JNA?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What year was that?
6 A. In 1968.
7 Q. Have you ever done any service in the JNA since that date?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What other years were your service in the JNA?
10 A. Well, I was in '77, in '80, '85. Those were the military
12 Q. Thank you. In 1992 were you serving in any military unit?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Or army force?
15 A. I went for a drill only, only for a military drill.
16 Q. When was that in 1992?
17 A. It was sometime between mid April and mid May '92.
18 Q. How old are you today?
19 A. Well, I was born on 8th October 1945.
20 Q. 50. Did other males of your age also have to undertake drill at
21 that time as a result of some sort of command?
22 A. I guess so.
23 Q. Which part of Banja Luka do you live in?
24 A. That part is Starcevica.
25 Q. Do you know Dusko Tadic?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Do you know other members of Dusko Tadic's family?
28 A. No, I do know only his relatives. I mean, mother (sic) and
1 children and mother, and Ljubo, with him I had some contacts.
2 Q. When did you first meet Dusko Tadic?
3 A. In the first half of May '92.
4 JUDGE STEPHEN: If you look at the second last answer, that cannot be
5 right? There is some mistranslation.
6 MR. KAY: Perhaps I will explore that, your Honour.
7 [To the witness]: Which members of Dusko Tadic's family do you
9 A. I know his wife, his mother and two children.
10 Q. I think you also mentioned Ljubo?
11 A. Yes, Ljubo too, yes.
12 Q. Is Ljubo his brother?
13 A. He is.
14 Q. You told us that you first met Dusko Tadic in May 1992. How did
15 you come to meet him?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. How was it that you met him?
18 A. Well, because I saw him because he was in my neighbour's house
19 and I wondered what he was doing there and that is how we met,
20 where he was staying.
21 Q. How long did he stay in that house for?
22 A. Well, until about the end of the seventh month -- what do you
23 call it -- July.
24 Q. Do you know how it was that he came to be in that house, your
25 neighbour's house?
26 A. Yes, well, that is I wondered and I asked them and they told me
27 that there were some troubles in Kozarac and that they had to
28 leave it.
1 Q. Your neighbour, was he living in that house at the same time as
2 the Tadic family?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Where was your neighbour?
5 A. I did not understand the question.
6 Q. Where was your neighbour at the time the Tadic family were
7 living in that house?
8 A. He was in Germany then.
9 Q. What was his name?
10 A. Let me see, the husband, he was killed before the war, and the
11 wife was called Ljubica, Ljubica Gorgi.
12 Q. Where was she at that time in May 1992?
13 A. In Germany.
14 Q. Can you remember whether they came back to that house ever?
15 Have they ever returned to that house?
16 A. No.
17 Q. How did the Tadic family get into the house?
18 A. Well, they had a friend, Nedim, and I guess he gave them keys
19 because that woman left her keys with Nedim when she went to
20 Germany, and as the house was empty they simply did him a
21 service, that is, gave him the keys so that he could move in.
22 Q. Before this meeting in May 1992, had you ever seen Dusko Tadic
24 A. No.
25 Q. After you met him for the first time, how often did you see him?
26 A. Well, how shall I put it? I cannot really count all the times,
27 but we met often because we were next door neighbours. How
28 shall I put it? Four or five times during that time, I mean,
1 during his stay there.
2 Q. Were you in your work as a locksmith at this time?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Were you out at work during the day?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. About what time did you return from work usually?
7 A. Well, around 3 o'clock.
8 Q. On those occasions you have described seeing Dusko Tadic, did
9 you spend long in his company?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What were you and he doing?
12 A. No, from time to time, a little, for half an hour, an hour, that
13 would be meetings, have a cup of coffee or a drink, something
14 like that, nothing more than that.
15 Q. Did you get to know his wife?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you see her on occasions when you saw Dusko Tadic?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. Did you see her on other occasions on her own without Dusko
20 Tadic being there?
21 A. No, I did not, no.
22 Q. Did you ever go and see how they were in this house next to
23 yours that belonged to your neighbour?
24 A. Yes, yes, I did. I did visit them in the house.
25 Q. Which part of the house were they staying in?
26 A. They were staying in the lower part, in what we call "cellar".
27 I do not know how to explain it.
28 Q. What were the conditions like of this house? How good was it?
1 A. None at all. I mean, that was a house unfurnished, unequipped.
2 Q. Was it a house that had been completely built at this time? Was
3 it a finished house?
4 A. Well, I do not know in what sense. It had a roof on it but
5 nothing else, the facade had not been done, nor had it anything
6 in it, not windows, not anything -- just a building, just a
8 Q. I would like you to look at this photograph and tell me if you
9 recognise it which I tender to the Court now as Exhibit D62.
11 A. Yes, that is Dusko.
12 Q. Do you recognise that photograph?
13 A. Yes, I do, I do. This is the upper part.
14 MR. KAY: Perhaps if this can be put on the overhead projector, your
15 Honour? A copy has been served on the Prosecution.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Has it been offered and marked?
17 MR. KAY: I do not think it has been marked yet, your Honour.
18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Would you mark it D62?
19 MR. KAY: Thank you. 62A would be appropriate.
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 62A. Is there any objection to 62A?
21 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I am not sure what it is yet.
22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I am sorry. The Defence, though, said they
23 tendered it to you, I thought.
24 MISS HOLLIS: But I mean the witness has not -- I do not know what it
25 is a picture of.
26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Show it to the Prosecutor first.
27 MISS HOLLIS: I still do not know what it is a picture of.
28 MR. KAY: He has told a moment ago that it was the photograph of his
1 neighbour's house.
2 MISS HOLLIS: I am sorry, your Honour. We have no objection if it is
3 a photograph of the house.
4 MR. KAY: Yes.
5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: D62A will be admitted.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, that is the building, my neighbour's house, where
7 Dusko lived.
8 MR. KAY: You described that as being the upper part of the house?
9 A. Yes, right up to the street.
10 Q. We can see there that there are three floors, is that right?
11 A. It is.
12 Q. Were the Tadic family living in any part of that house that is
13 in the photograph?
14 A. No.
15 Q. You said earlier that they were living in the basement of the
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. To get to the basement of the house do you go around to the back
19 of the house?
20 A. May I show it? May I show it? Here -- is there something that
21 I can show it with?
22 Q. If you just point to something, on the right, there is a
23 photograph on the right on the projector and if you just ----
24 A. Yes, sure.
25 Q. --- point to what you wanted to point to.
26 A. It is down, you have to descend there. Did you get me? Did you
27 understand that?
28 Q. Yes.
1 A. That you have to go down?
2 Q. That is right. Do you go through the front gate and turn right
3 and go down to the back of the house?
4 A. Quite, yes, down there behind the house. It is the bank there,
5 if you understood my meaning.
6 Q. Perhaps if would you like to look at this photograph which
7 I tender as 60B, your Honour, D60B?
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 62?
9 MR. KAY: 62B. It is marked on the back as photograph 17 for the
10 Prosecution. [To the witness]: Could you just look at this
11 photograph, please, Mr. Balta, and tell me if you recognise it?
12 A. I do.
13 Q. What is it a photograph of?
14 A. This is the photograph of that part of the house, its lower
15 part, the basement. This is the entrance and here was the
16 kitchen and then next to it was the bedroom.
17 Q. Perhaps if you could put that on the overhead projector as
18 well? Is that the back of the house where the basement is that
19 you told us about?
20 A. That is correct.
21 MR. KAY: Your Honour, that is an appropriate time and at this stage,
22 perhaps, if we take our break?
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to 62B? Do you wish to
24 offer it?
25 MR. KAY: I was going to, yes, your Honour.
26 MISS HOLLIS: No objection, your Honour.
27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 62B will be admitted. We will stand in recess
28 for 20 minutes.
1 (11.30 a.m.)
2 (The Court adjourned for a short time)
3 (11.50 a.m.)
4 MR. WLADIMIROFF: We apologise, your Honour. There was an urgent
5 matter we had to take care of.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
7 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour. I would like you now to look at
8 another photograph, please, Mr. Balta. This is marked No. 15
9 for the Prosecution. If I tender it as D62C. (Handed).
10 Mr. Balta, if you could tell me if you recognise the view in
11 this photograph?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What is it a picture of?
14 A. I did not understand the question. Could you repeat it, please?
15 Q. Could you tell me what it is a picture of? What do we see in
16 that photograph?
17 A. I see here my house and my balcony. I could point at it, but
18 how do I do it? With a finger or?
19 Q. Do not worry. If you answer a few questions from me, I will be
20 able to get you to point things out. Are there any other houses
21 in that photograph as well?
22 A. I see.
23 Q. What are the other houses in that photograph?
24 A. Could you point them with a finger?
25 Q. If you can just tell me and then I will get you to point to it
26 so we can see it on our video screens?
27 A. Behind my balcony, this is my house and then this is the
28 neighbour's house where Tadic lived.
1 Q. Thank you. If that could now be put on the overhead projector?
2 Thank you. Is that there a photograph of the back of your house
3 with the balcony you told us about?
4 A. I am sorry, I did not understand the question.
5 Q. Is that a photograph of your balcony at the back of your house?
6 A. It is.
7 Q. The house that you said the Tadic family stayed in, could you
8 indicate that then, which house that is, on the photograph by
9 using that pointer?
10 A. Yes, I can. It is ----
11 Q. Perhaps if you could indicate it ----
12 A. Here, this is it. This is the house where Mr. Tadic stayed.
13 Q. Is that the front or the back of the house that you indicated
14 there with the pointer?
15 A. This is the back of the house. The basement is down there.
16 Q. Thank you. Your Honour, I offer that now to the Court as
17 Exhibit 62C.
18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to 62C?
19 MISS HOLLIS: No objection, your Honour.
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 62C will be admitted.
21 MR. KAY: Thank you. [To the witness]: Were you aware of the
22 conflict that occurred in Kozarac in 1992?
23 A. Well, yes, up to a certain point, yes, I heard about it. There
24 was news and things like that.
25 Q. When you say you heard about it, there was the news, was that
26 through the media, through television or radio or newspapers or
27 from what people told you?
28 A. On the radio, mostly radio and television, not through people.
1 Q. Do you know if you saw Dusko Tadic at that time in Banja Luka?
2 A. You mean when the attack on that Kozarac occurred?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. At that time he was in Banja Luka.
5 Q. Do you know if he ever left Banja Luka for any substantial
6 period of time, as far as you knew?
7 A. I think -- I could not really say whether he was there for some
8 substantial time. I did see him quite often, but .....
9 Q. Were you aware of the Tadic family moving out of that house in
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you know or did they tell you where they were going to and
13 where they were moving to from that house in Banja Luka?
14 A. Well, as a matter of fact, I happened to be at home when we met
15 so that we said, "Hello".
16 Q. What did you become aware of?
17 A. How do you mean?
18 Q. Well, when you were at home and you were there at that time, do
19 you know if they were moving from the house?
20 A. Let me see. They came by car, and I saw how children and wife
21 and mother were going and he came to say "goodbye". He said,
22 "We are going to Prijedor, we are being given a flat there" and
23 so we said "goodbye".
24 Q. Can you remember when that was?
25 A. Well, it was some time in the latter half of July. I could not
26 be more precise.
27 Q. Did you ever see Dusko Tadic in military uniform?
28 A. Me, no, I mean, I cannot remember.
1 MR. KAY: Thank you. That is all I ask. Wait there, please.
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Cross-examination, Miss Hollis?
3 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour.
4 Cross-Examined by MISS HOLLIS
5 Q. Sir, you had indicated you had lived in Banja Luka all of your
6 life. Could you tell us what was your place of birth?
7 A. I was born in the village Balta which is near Banja Luka.
8 Q. How long did you live in Balta before you moved to Banja Luka?
9 A. About 15 years or so until I went to school.
10 Q. In what opstina is Balta?
11 A. It is in the municipality of Celinac, but it is very near Banja
13 Q. In what opstina is that Celinac?
14 A. What do you mean?
15 Q. Opstina? Is it in the Banja Luka opstina or is it in a
16 different opstina?
17 A. Yes, I mean Banja Luka.
18 Q. You indicated that in, perhaps, mid April or mid May 1992 you
19 performed military drill. Where did you perform that military
21 A. How shall I put it? We were -- I was in this Starcevica where
22 I was born and that is where the drill was, I mean, where
23 I lived.
24 Q. What were your duties during this military drill?
25 A. Well, we were to guard our Local Commune, I mean where I live.
26 Q. You were provided weapons to do this?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. What type of weapons were you provided?
1 A. Infantry weapons.
2 Q. What type would those be?
3 A. This is PAP rifle, semi-automatic rifle.
4 Q. How long did you perform that military drill?
5 A. Well, until about the first half of May.
6 Q. After the first half of May did you perform any additional
7 military duties during 1992?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you perform any police duties during 1992?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Were you a member of any paramilitary organisation during 1992?
12 A. No.
13 Q. What was your father's name, first name?
14 A. Savo.
15 Q. Sir, do you have sons?
16 A. One.
17 Q. Could you tell us his name and his date of birth?
18 A. 5th May '76, and his name is Sinisa.
19 Q. Sir, during 1992 did your son perform any military duties?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Did your son perform any police duties during 1992?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Was your son a member of any paramilitary organisation during
25 A. No.
26 Q. Sir, during 1992 did you perform any duties at any of the camps
27 in opstina Prijedor?
28 A. No.
1 Q. You talked on direct examination about a house next to yours
2 where Dule Tadic and his family stayed for a time. What was the
3 last name of your neighbour whose house Dule Tadic's family
4 stayed in?
5 A. Gorgi, late Stefan Gorgi, and his wife, Ljubica.
6 Q. You indicated that you believed that they had obtained keys to
7 that house. You guessed that Nedim had given them the keys.
8 Were you present when Nedim gave them the keys to this house?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Sir, what is the ethnic group of that family that owned that
11 home in which Dule Tadic's family stayed?
12 A. Let me see. Late Stefan was Ukrainian and his wife is a Croat
13 or a Catholic, whichever way you like.
14 Q. Sir, were you a member of the SDS Party during 1992?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You were shown three photographs during your direct
17 examination. Can you tell us what month and year those
18 photographs were taken?
19 A. Where are they, the photographs? Where are the photographs?
20 I cannot see them.
21 Q. We will retrieve those for you to look at, sir. That will be
22 62A, B and C.
23 A. This was taken now in August, '96.
24 Q. Sir, the other two photographs, when were they taken?
25 A. All three of them -- no, this one was taken in '95, and this was
26 in '95 and I think it was August again, and these, these were
27 taken this August, '96.
28 Q. Sir, did you take the photographs?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Were you present when they were taken?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You indicated that you were aware of a conflict in Kozarac
5 because you heard about it on radio and television. What radio
6 stations did you hear about the conflict on?
7 A. Well, radio, Radio Banja Luka.
8 Q. Sir, what television station did you hear about the conflict on?
9 A. Likewise, I mean Banja Luka has its television station, so we
10 had it on Banja Luka television.
11 Q. What were the dates that you heard those broadcasts?
12 A. I cannot say that. I do not remember it. I cannot remember
14 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour. No further questions.
15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
16 Re-examined by MR. KAY
17 MR. KAY: Just a few matters in re-examination:
18 Q. Nedim whom you were told gave the Tadic family the keys to the
19 basement of the house we have seen in the photographs, did you
20 ever talk to Nedim about this matter?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did you see Nedim at the time?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Either then or after this date?
25 A. No, Nedim was with the army then or was absent.
26 Q. When you were in Banja Luka in 1992 you told us about the
27 military drill. What was your job at the time? Were you doing
28 your ordinary job?
1 A. No.
2 Q. You told us you were a locksmith?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Were you working as a locksmith in 1992?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. When you were doing your military drill, at the time of doing
7 the drill, were you still working as a locksmith?
8 A. No.
9 Q. For how long did the military drill take?
10 A. Sometime in the former half of May we were simply guarding that
11 Local Commune. It was no drill.
12 Q. What was the purpose for guarding the Local Commune?
13 A. I do not know.
14 Q. Do you know why people told you to perform this function, what
15 the reason was?
16 A. No, people were to be there on duty and stand sentry there and
17 so we did. We executed orders.
18 MR. KAY: Thank you.
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any recross?
20 MISS HOLLIS: Yes.
21 Further cross-examined by MISS HOLLIS
22 Q. If we could clarify again what commune was it that you were
24 A. The Local Commune of Starcevica.
25 Q. The other people there with you who were guarding this commune,
26 were they also armed as you were armed?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. This commune that you were guarding, that was where your home is
1 located, is that correct?
2 A. It is.
3 Q. What is your exact address in [redacted]
4 A. [redacted]
5 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
7 MR. KAY: Your Honour, if that could be redacted from the material?
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, there is no objection or is
10 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I do not know that this was asked for
11 before, but we certainly have no objection to anything to
12 protect a witness.
13 MR. KAY: I am grateful to Miss Hollis.
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Thank you. It will be redacted.
15 Do you have any additional questions, Mr. Kay?
16 MR. KAY: I have no additional questions.
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to the witness being
18 permanently excused?
19 MISS HOLLIS: I am sorry, your Honour, may I confer?
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes.
21 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, we would ask that he be subject to recall.
22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: There is no objection, I gather, to the witness
23 returning home, but just subject to recall.
24 MISS HOLLIS: No objection to his returning home.
25 MR. KAY: No difficulty with that, your Honour.
26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Balta, you are free to return home.
27 However, you are subject to recall which means that you should
28 make yourself available because you may be asked to return to
1 the Tribunal for testimony. If you are asked, then you are to
2 return. You are now excused. Excuse me, I forgot, I am sorry,
3 Judge Stephen. But make yourself available because you may be
4 recalled. Excuse me, Judge Stephen has a question.
5 Examined by the Court
6 JUDGE STEPHEN: Mr. Balta, I wanted to ask you about the drill that
7 you undertook guarding your Local Commune in mid April or May.
8 Did that mean that you slept away from home or were you still
9 living in your house during that period of guarding your Local
11 A. We simply went on duty. I mean, we were -- we stood sentry so
12 there would be -- sometimes, for instance, you would be on night
13 duty and then, of course, we would be away from home and then
14 the next night you would sleep at home.
15 Q. But apart from night duty or day duty for that matter, the rest
16 of the time you would be living in your house?
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
20 MR. KAY: Nothing arises, thank you, your Honour.
21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis?
22 MISS HOLLIS: No, your Honour.
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Balta, once again you are excused, but make
24 yourself available because you may be recalled to testify.
25 Thank you.
26 THE WITNESS: Much obliged.
27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you very much for coming. Mr. Kay, you
28 will keep in touch, I suppose, so if necessary he can be
2 MR. KAY: Yes. Mr. Wladimiroff will explain precisely what it means.
3 (The witness withdrew)
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, would you call your next witness?
5 MR. KAY: Your Honour, that is the only Defence witness we have
6 available at this stage in the proceedings. Due to developments
7 last week, we could not bring over the next batch of witnesses
8 who are now ready to come next Wednesday when the Court resumes
9 the hearing.
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I suppose I should tell you as I told the
11 Prosecutor -- I did not tell them, I think I probably, well, I
12 did not yell at them because I never raise my voice -- the trial
13 has been long and I ask counsel to please not hold up the
14 proceedings. If you are having problems about bringing
15 witnesses, just tell the Trial Chamber and we will help you,
16 because we did schedule Tuesday for arguments and we went all
17 day, we went even longer than what we thought. Mr. Wladimiroff,
18 do you want to explain more?
19 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes, I would. As a matter of fact we had three
20 witnesses left of last week and we anticipated to continue on
21 L. We told you we would inform you last Monday if we were able
22 to discuss the matter on Tuesday, but that it might also be
23 Wednesday. You indicated that that in that case Wednesday would
24 be available for argument. We were not able to deal with the
25 matter, so we argued the matter last Tuesday. We learned also
26 late that there was a postponement with L, so we were not able
27 to bring our witnesses that quick to The Hague. We conferred
28 with the Witness Unit and, therefore, we settled to what was
1 available, three witnesses and L, and now we found no L and
2 three witnesses we have dealt with. Besides that, let me read
3 what is in the transcript, I informed you last Friday that we
4 only had three witnesses available for next week and that we
5 could continue on L. So you said that we will start on Tuesday
6 and finish as soon as we have dealt with those witnesses. So we
7 were under the impression that you were aware of what was going
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I was very much. On your list of witnesses you
10 had estimated two hours for one and two hours for another and
11 two and a half for the other.
12 MR. WLADIMIROFF: That is right.
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So we should still be sitting here listening to
14 testimony. Once again, please have your witnesses available so
15 we will not have any delays. We will adjourn until, next
16 Wednesday, at 10 a.m.
17 MR. KAY: Before we do adjourn there was one outstanding matter that
18 the Court was aware of, a motion filed on behalf of the
19 Prosecution which we have since been able to discuss. Your
20 Honour may remember shelving for last Friday.
21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I do understand. I spoke with Miss
22 Featherstone and asked her to ask counsel if they had reached an
23 agreement on the redaction of the material. She told me at one
24 of our breaks today that you were still working on it and I told
25 her, thank you. Now, are you going to tell me that you have
26 finished, I hope?
27 MR. KAY: Indeed I do remember the conversation with Miss
28 Featherstone, but since then I have been able to deal with it
1 with the Prosecution.
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. When you reach agreement advise us
3 and then a decision will be entered, I suppose, if agreement has
4 been reached.
5 MISS HOLLIS: It has, your Honour, and we do have copies of the
6 redacted version of the purported interview. It depends upon
7 how the Court wishes to deal with that. We can withdraw the
8 entire package and resubmit a new package with the last
9 attachment being redacted or we can simply provide the redacted
10 copies of the interview and have those traded out. Perhaps it
11 might be cleaner to withdraw the entire thing and resubmit the
12 entire thing.
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You filed the motion?
14 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour.
15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It is up to you. How do you want to handle
16 it? What would the Registrar say if you wanted to withdraw it?
17 I guess they would say that is OK, would they, Mr. Bos? Fine.
18 Then you will withdraw it, submit a new motion.
19 MISS HOLLIS: With the redaction.
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Indicating that it is unopposed and then a
21 decision or order will be entered accordingly.
22 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour.
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is a confidential motion.
24 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour. After discussions with Defence
25 counsel, Defence counsel has asked that again I clarify that the
26 document which has been redacted is, in our belief, what could
27 amount to a prior statement of the witness, portions of which
28 would be inconsistent, portions of which would be consistent,
1 but that is the character of what we believe that document could
2 be considered to be. That is why we wanted to provide it to the
3 Defence and to the Court. The affidavit from the investigator
4 simply explained the efforts that were made after we became
5 aware of the documents existence.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I will not even comment on that.
7 MISS HOLLIS: Is that correct, Mr. Kay?
8 MR. KAY: I am grateful for Miss Hollis explaining it in that way.
9 We can accept this is a trial bench that will be able to deal
10 with this material that concerns one of the confidential
11 Prosecution witnesses.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: In any case, the parties have agreed as to the
13 attachment and what will be redacted. The motion will be
14 withdrawn and a new motion then will be filed with a redaction
15 and we will enter an order granting it.
16 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, since we still have some time perhaps we
17 could also deal with the memoranda dealing with interpretation
18 issues that arose during the trial. We had talked about that
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes.
21 MISS HOLLIS: Again, do you actually want them read into the record?
22 Do you want them submitted as an exhibit or do you want both?
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Both, if I understand what you are talking
24 about. If either party considers that there has been an error
25 in interpretation, then you should bring it to the attention of
26 the Trial Chamber in open court so that it can be picked up on
27 the transcript, and then you can file a memorandum, if you wish,
28 but the most important thing is for it to be picked up.
1 MISS HOLLIS: May I do that at this time, your Honour?
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes.
3 MISS HOLLIS: If I may pick through this as I go, your Honour. First
4 of all, we are discussing a correction to the transcript that
5 would have been taken on 18th July 1996, page 2405 line 7, page
6 2406 line 3, and testimony of 17th July 1996, page 2370 line
7 31. After a review of the audio tapes it was determined there
8 was an error in interpretations. Both witnesses were talking
9 about "automatic rifle" not about "submachine gun". That is one
11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You have conferred with counsel obviously?
12 MISS HOLLIS: We have provided Defence copies with all of this.
13 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Yes and, we have agreed to that.
14 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour the next one would involve testimony of 1st
15 August 1996 page 3007, line 33. Again, after a review of the
16 audio tapes there was an error of interpretation. Line 33
17 should read as follows: "Dark green and coffee, light coffee.
18 All colours were rather pale." The correction there was that
19 originally the word "green" was interpreted as "blue". The
20 correct interpretation is "dark green".
21 This would refer to testimony on 9th August, page 3359
22 lines 32, 33. After submitting a request to the Conference and
23 Language Services section the reply is this. As to lines 32, 33
24 could indeed be interpreted as follows: "It could be light but
25 maybe it was shining in the sun, but his hair sort of went more
26 in the direction of black." The note goes on to indicate that
27 the content makes it possible for the sentence to be interpreted
28 in more than one way.
1 As to 9th August 1996 testimony, page 3294 line 19,
2 line 19 should read as follows: "I can" c-a-n.
3 Your Honour, there is one additional matter of a
4 request for verification of interpretation concerning testimony
5 that was given in closed session. Perhaps for that that could
6 simply be submitted as part of the Exhibit which I am about to
7 tender. I will note which part of it is and then perhaps the
8 Registry could make appropriate corrections.
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You have what, four or so or five? Do you want
10 to admit them as separate exhibits? I suppose they should be
11 admitted into the record, except for the last one which we will
12 handle differently, I suppose, since that was in closed.
13 MISS HOLLIS: I was thinking I would admit them as one exhibit but A,
14 B C, and then a portion of that could be sealed which would be
15 the last one.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK.
17 MISS HOLLIS: That would be the next Prosecution Exhibit in line as
18 Prosecution Exhibit 351. That would be A was the first mention
19 I made about automatic rifle. B was the mention about "dark
20 green". C was the mention about the sentence being interpreted
21 as "light but maybe it was shining in the sun". D was the
22 correction of the line to read, "I can". E would be the
23 correction pertaining to the testimony in closed session.
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Any objection?
25 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, your Honour.
26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Exhibits 351A, B, C, D and E will be admitted.
27 E will be handled appropriately since it was in closed session.
28 Is there anything else?
1 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Just for the reference, your Honour, the page of E
2 is all I need?
3 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, it was at page 3567, line 20.
4 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Thank you.
5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You should provide counsel for the Defence with
6 a copy of those memos.
7 MISS HOLLIS: I have done that, your Honour.
8 MR. WLADIMIROFF: We have them, but as I do not have them here I just
9 wanted to make these notes.
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, they are admitted. Is there anything
12 MISS HOLLIS: No, your Honour.
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Anything from the Defence we can use the day
15 MR. KAY: Sorry, no, your Honour.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will adjourn until Wednesday at 10 a.m.
17 (12.34 p.m.)
18 (The court adjourned until Wednesday, 2nd October 1996)