1 Wednesday, 2nd October 1996.
2 (Open session)
3 (10.20 a.m.)
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, would you call your next witness,
6 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour. I call Nikola Petrovic.
7 NIKOLA PETROVIC, called.
8 Examined by MR. KAY
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you please take the oath that will
10 be handed to you?
11 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak
12 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
13 (The witness was sworn)
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine, thank you. You may be seated. Mr. Kay?
15 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.
16 Q. Is your name Nikola Petrovic?
17 A. Yes, Nikola Petrovic.
18 Q. Do you come from Banja Luka?
19 A. I was born in Novi Sad and I live in Banja Luka.
20 Q. What is your occupation in Banja Luka?
21 A. In Banja Luka I have been a policeman for 15 years. Before that
22 I was in restaurant business.
23 Q. Do you know Dusko Tadic?
24 A. Yes, I do know Dusko Tadic.
25 Q. How long have you known him for?
26 A. I have known Dusko's brother somewhat longer than Dusko and I
27 met Dusko sometime in 1974, '75.
28 Q. Which brother of Dusko's have you known for a longer period of
1 time than Dusko Tadic?
2 A. Ljubo Tadic is -- Ljubomir Tadic is the one whom I have known
3 longer than Dusko Tadic.
4 Q. How well did you know Dusko Tadic?
5 A. Rather well, because at certain points in time we socialised.
6 Q. Did you know other people in the Tadic family, for instance, his
8 A. I met him only once when I paid him a visit in Kozarac as he was
9 still alive then and I had heard that he was quite an eminent
10 personality in Kozarac. They lived in Kozarac after World War
11 II. I know his mother, and I know all four brothers and their
12 wives. I know the children.
13 Q. Did you used to visit the Tadic family in their home in Kozarac?
14 A. Yes, in Kozarac I visited the home when I was younger and some
15 time on the eve of the war, sometime in 1992, I would drop by.
16 Q. Do you remember the time when the conflict started in Kozarac in
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. At the time of that conflict in Kozarac, whereabouts were you?
20 A. I was in Banja Luka doing my job.
21 Q. Are you a married man?
22 A. Yes, I am. I have three children.
23 Q. Your home is in Banja Luka, is it?
24 A. Yes, it is. We have a family house in Banja Luka, but I am now
25 using an apartment. Yes, that is where I live.
26 Q. At the time of the conflict in Kozarac, were you in your former
27 family home or in the apartment where you now live?
28 A. I was at home in this house that my family has because at that
1 time I still had not been given the lease to that apartment.
2 Q. At the time of the conflict in Kozarac, did you see Dusko Tadic?
3 A. At the time of the conflict I did, before the conflict, but when
4 the war started I did not see him, and later on I used to see
5 him in Banja Luka later, some two, two and a half months.
6 Q. Do you know if Serb people were moving out of Kozarac before
7 that conflict started?
8 A. I would not know that, but Dusko moved out or, rather, his
9 mother and I think his wife and children left a few days
10 earlier, and on the eve of the conflict Dusko escaped, fled from
11 Kozarac because unrest had begun there and he had to flee.
12 Q. The time that you saw the mother and the wife of Dusko Tadic and
13 the children before the conflict, can you remember how long
14 before the conflict that you saw those members of the Tadic
16 A. Well, about 10 to 15 days, I cannot remember exactly when that
17 was, but when I would come from Kozarac I would go to the birth
18 place of my father, that is Sanski Most, and then on returning
19 I would drop by to see Dusko and they were all there. We were
20 in Dusko's coffee bar, the one that he had, and we had a few
21 drinks there. I saw his mother. Then we went upstairs in his
22 house and we were their guests because our wives, that is
23 Dusko's wife and my wife, were school fellows, and there was a
24 gentleman there, I believe it was an Orthodox priest there who
25 just happened to be there at the time. So I saw his mother
26 there, his wife, his two children. He lived with them. That
27 was their common household.
28 Q. Can you remember how long before the conflict this was when you
1 went to the coffee bar on this occasion?
2 A. Some 10 or 15 days. I cannot remember exactly. It was a period
3 of time. I mean, it was quite a long time ago and I attached no
4 importance to it. I did not know that it would suddenly come to
5 mean a significant date or something.
6 Q. Was that the last time you saw the Tadic family as a family in
8 A. Yes, the last time in Kozarac, yes. On that occasion Dusko told
9 me, I saw the glass piece broken on the coffee bar. I mean,
10 they had been stoned. So we talked and I learned that he had
11 some difficulties with those local Muslims.
12 Q. When did you next see the Tadic family?
13 A. The Tadic family, except mother, mother did not come to visit
14 me, and mother was with one of his brothers, and as for them
15 I saw them on the very day when the conflict broke out in
16 Kozarac. I believe that was that day, Dusko came to see me with
17 his children. It must have been sometime in the afternoon
19 Q. Do you know what day that was, what the date of that was?
20 A. It was a weekend and I should say that it was May 24th or 23rd,
21 I cannot really say exactly. But, at any rate, those were the
22 days of weekend in May. I cannot remember the date exactly.
23 Q. You first of all told us about seeing the Tadic family for the
24 last time in Kozarac at the coffee bar about 15 days before the
25 conflict started. Had you seen them in Banja Luka at all in
26 that period of 15 days before the conflict started?
27 A. No.
28 Q. When you saw Dusko Tadic with his family at the time of the
1 start of the conflict, had you seen him in Banja Luka before
2 that time?
3 A. Could you repeat the question, please?
4 Q. When you saw Dusko Tadic at the time of the conflict, had you
5 seen him at all in Banja Luka in the days before the conflict
6 started in Kozarac?
7 A. No, I did not.
8 Q. When you saw Dusko Tadic then at the time of the conflict in
9 Kozarac, can you remember precisely who in his family was with
11 A. At the time of the conflict in Kozarac?
12 Q. Yes, when they came to visit you, as you told us?
13 A. His wife and his two children were with him in my home when they
15 Q. Do you know what the reason for seeing you in your home was at
16 that time?
17 A. As I was a close friend of his and he had nowhere to run to, and
18 he came to Banja Luka because I lived there and his brothers
19 lived there and he was looking for accommodation. He had to
20 find some accommodation because he could not go there as there
21 were armed conflicts there.
22 Q. For how long did you see Dusko and his family on this occasion?
23 A. On this occasion, you mean that day or in the days ----
24 Q. No, when you saw him at the time of the conflict and you said
25 that he and his family visited your home, how long did they stay
26 at the home for?
27 A. Well, they spent with us the whole afternoon. We sat there. My
28 wife prepared lunch and told me, "Go and get some bread"
1 because, of course, we know what our daily needs are, and since
2 there were four persons more she told me to go and get some
3 bread, and I went to a restaurant nearby and bought some bread
4 so that they could have something to eat. So they stayed until
5 the -- until evening, until dusk.
6 Q. Did you see Dusko Tadic again after that time in Banja Luka?
7 A. Yes, I used to see him in the days that followed every two or
8 three days. We met regularly because he was looking for a way
9 out, how to resolve this problem that he had, what to do. He
10 did not know what to do.
11 Q. What was the problem that he had at that time?
12 A. Well, the problem at the time to begin with, he was concerned
13 about the property he had, that he had left behind. That is
14 this coffee bar. I knew that he had rescued some of his effects
15 before the conflict, but he was concerned about this property.
16 Then he came to Banja Luka, that is, to the centre of the town
17 where we met or he visited me at my home. He had financial
18 problems because one has to have some means of livelihood.
19 Q. Did he have a job at all in Banja Luka after he arrived there
20 during this time?
21 A. As far as I know, he did not do anything. He was with his
22 brothers there.
23 Q. You say you saw him every two or three days. Do you know
24 whereabouts he was living at this time in Banja Luka?
25 A. I did not visit them, but I think he rented a house, but I did
26 not visit that house. I could not offer him any hospitality
27 because I lived with my two parents who later on died, but there
28 was no room at my place.
1 Q. Do you know how long the Tadic family stayed in Banja Luka for?
2 A. Well, I said about two, two and a half months they were around
3 since they fled from Kozarac, and then later on he went to
4 Prijedor when raids started for men of military age who were to
5 go to the front, and some of them did not want to go to the
6 front and he also refused to go to the front.
7 Q. Was Dusko Tadic mobilized, as far as you knew, at this time of
8 the conflict in Kozarac?
9 A. No, I do know that he was not mobilized. I can vouchsafe that,
10 but later on he had to respond to mobilization because, of
11 course, when military police arrest you without your
12 mobilization documents, they immediately take you to the front
13 line, to a place where you do not want to go.
14 Q. You said that Dusko Tadic went to Prijedor. Do you know when
15 that was?
16 A. Well, when he left Banja Luka, I can -- I am telling you
17 I cannot remember all those dates exactly, but after Banja Luka
18 he went to Prijedor and I think he reported to the traffic
19 police because that was his mobilize -- the place where he was
21 Q. Was that the reason then he went to Prijedor because of his
22 mobilization for the traffic police?
23 A. No, no. I think they provided him with some provisional
24 accommodation, that is, accommodation for his family.
25 Q. Dusko Tadic as a character, do you know if he was heavily
26 involved in nationalist politics?
27 A. I do not know about that, but I know that later on when he left
28 the police, then he was given the post of a Secretary of a Local
1 Commune but that was after the conflict was over. He became a
2 Secretary of a Local Commune.
3 Q. Before that time had he expressed extreme nationalist views to
5 A. I did not notice anything of that kind. In that regard he was
6 quite restrained and he was saying: "This cannot end well". He
7 did not like the situation. He did not believe that a war of
8 such a scale would break out.
9 Q. When he moved to Prijedor did you see him during that period of
10 time that he was living in Prijedor?
11 A. I saw him in a flat, I think it was at Pecani. I would not know
12 exactly which flat that was. He took me with his brother and I
13 saw his mother and wife and the two children. They were in that
14 apartment, and he also had his brother's son there, I think,
15 spending the weekend with them, I believe, a couple of days.
16 Q. Is Pecani a place where there are apartment blocks in Prijedor?
17 A. Yes, yes. Yes, it is a residential -- it is a new development
19 Q. When was that that you saw him in the apartment in Prijedor?
20 Can you put a date on it?
21 A. I would not know the date, but I saw him when he was the
22 Secretary of the Local Commune.
23 Q. What was the reason for you visiting Dusko Tadic in Prijedor at
24 the time you saw him?
25 A. I simply had asked his brother, was Dule, "How about Dule?"
26 I simply wanted to see where he was and how they had been
27 accommodated. I remember it was Sunday, it was a weekend, so
28 I could have a day off and that was that.
1 Q. What was the sort of gap in time, can you remember that, the
2 period of time, since you had last seen him when you saw him in
3 the apartment in Prijedor?
4 A. It was several months, but I cannot remember how many.
5 Q. After that period of time, did you see Dusko Tadic again in
7 A. Yes, he came to Banja Luka and told us he was going to Germany
8 because there was nothing for him there. There was no work. He
9 had no money, and he offered to sell me his music appliances,
10 the gramophone, the radio and everything, to sell it to me,
11 because he had no money. I cannot remember what was the price
12 he asked, but I also had no money to buy it, and then I think he
13 went to his brothers and somehow managed with the money and that
14 was that.
15 Q. Do you know when that was? Are you able to perhaps be precise
16 about that time?
17 A. I repeat, it was several months after my visit in Pecani in
18 Prijedor. It was two or three months. I cannot remember
19 exactly because it was a long time. It was four years ago, but
20 I do know that he did not go along with -- get along well with
21 Prijedor authorities. That is what I do know. He had to
22 leave. He wanted to leave.
23 I have a sister living in South Africa -- she has been
24 living there since 1990 -- and he asked me to give him her
25 telephone number and her address, because he was thinking to go
26 there. Even I thought of leaving Banja Luka but I could not
27 leave my parents who were of an advanced age. I have already
28 told you. I mean, they were of quite an advanced age and their
1 health was poor. And he talked to her and she explained the
2 procedure, I mean, what were the requirements to enter South
3 Africa, but it was simpler for him to go to Germany because he
4 had a brother who lived there.
5 Q. You said that he had problems with the authorities in Prijedor.
6 Do you know what those problems were, did he tell you?
7 A. He did say something, that he could not agree with certain
8 things. I would not know exactly what about; that they were
9 sending them to the front line and then requesting him to put on
10 the SMB uniform, that is, to stop being with the civilian police
11 and that was when he then left.
12 MR. KAY: Thank you. That is all I ask, but wait there, please.
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Cross-examination, Mr. Niemann?
14 Cross-examined by MR. NIEMANN
15 Q. Mr. Petrovic, did Dule Tadic leave for Germany in 1992, did he?
16 A. I think that it was in '92 or '93. I think it was '93. It has
17 been a long time ago.
18 Q. I am just calculating it because you said that it was a couple
19 of months, you thought, after you had seen him in Prijedor, in
20 the flat in Prijedor. So from calculating from that, do you
21 think it is probably 1992 or '93?
22 A. He was in that apartment for several months, but then he was not
23 given a permanent lease to that apartment. He had to leave the
24 apartment at one point and as he was due to leave, the apartment
25 was probably returned to somebody else and he had difficulties
26 with the authorities, and then that obviously made his decision
27 to leave. Exactly how long that all took, I cannot remember
28 exactly. I do not know the date, but I do know that there were
1 several months elapsing before the decision and the actual
3 Q. You said you were in the police, is that right?
4 A. Yes, yes, the police attached to the prison service, the prison
5 service police.
6 Q. I see. Were you active in the police during the period of the
7 conflict in 1992?
8 A. No, no, not in 1992. In 1995 I was mobilized on two occasions,
9 because our boss was asked to send the names of so many people
10 to form a unit and I was called up in the winter of 1995 as the
11 Commander of a supply unit and in the canteen.
12 Q. What were you doing in 1992 in the months of, say, May, June and
13 July of that year?
14 A. At that time I was in our prison service, that was, I was doing
15 my routine jobs. This was the Banja Luka prison headquarters.
16 Q. I see. This is a civilian type prison, is it?
17 A. That is a civilian type prison. This is a civilian prison with
18 a section which was for military detainees because the military
19 prison was full so they sent some people to us in that military
20 prison unit for those serving shorter sentences, and we provided
21 the services of guarding and security for those people.
22 Q. What was the name of the prison?
23 A. This is the prison service Tunjice, Banja Luka. This is both
24 the prison and the district prison, local and district prison.
25 Q. Does the prison have a name?
26 A. No, no, special name, Tunjice, Tunjice was the name by which it
27 was known.
28 Q. When you say there was military prisoners there as well during
1 the period of the conflict, were they people who were serving in
2 the armed forces or were they people who were brought in,
3 civilians who were brought in, and taken as prisoners during
4 that time?
5 A. They were people who were -- some of them wanted to destroy the
6 bridge on the Una River, so they were caught by the military
7 police. This was the case of people who were captured, and they
8 were sent to us simply to be guarded there because they had no
9 room in their own prison. This was the territory controlled at
10 that time by the army of the Republika Srpska.
11 Q. Were these people Muslims, were they?
12 A. Muslims, Croats. There were some Serbs.
13 Q. What is your date of birth?
14 A. 21st March 1959 and I was born at Novi Sad.
15 Q. On the day of the conflict commencing in Kozarac, you say that
16 is the day you remember seeing the Tadic family, is that right?
17 A. Yes, quite.
18 Q. How do you know that the conflict had started in Kozarac?
19 A. I knew that -- I mean, the first information came from Dusko who
20 came to visit. This was the first real information that
21 I know. The distance is not very great. It is less than 40, 42
22 kilometres between Banja Luka and Kozarac. So there were people
23 who were travelling and moving between, coming from the various
24 villages in the vicinity of Kozarac. So we got the information
25 from them about the clashes and conflict in Kozarac and around
26 Prijedor. The media did not report these conflicts for the most
28 Q. So it is, basically, relying on information as people were
1 coming in, as refugees were coming through?
2 A. Not refugees, but various people who worked in Banja Luka and
3 were coming from the various villages in the vicinity.
4 Q. The tensions built up, did they not, in the Kozarac and Prijedor
5 opstina over a period of time? It just did not sort of happen
6 overnight? I think you need to answer "yes" or "no", sir.
7 A. No. No, not overnight, certainly not. It took some time.
8 Q. People were coming and going during this build up period before
9 the conflict started?
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. The conflict was somewhat spasmodic, was it not, in the sense
12 that it did not all begin on one day; it started at various
13 places at different times?
14 A. The conflict in and around Kozarac and Prijedor (and they are
15 very close, just 10 to 15 kilometres distance), it started in
16 one place and then it spread as wild fire and it simply spread
17 including more and more villages.
18 Q. But you are not denying, are you, that there was -- you may not
19 know, but if you do know, you are not denying that there were
20 conflicts in other places at different times in the opstina
22 A. I am not aware of other conflicts, but I know that only this one
23 conflict broke out in that place along the main road linking
24 Banja Luka and Prijedor. There was a member of the Territorial
25 Unit, a Muslim, killed a soldier of the Yugoslav Army, which was
26 then the Yugoslav Army, and that is how the whole thing
27 started. This was the focal point.
28 Q. You know that because someone told you that?
1 A. Yes, I heard that from several people, but they -- all the
2 stories agreed and that is the relative truth that I have
3 developed myself.
4 Q. When the Tadic family arrived at your house, how did they arrive
6 A. They came on foot.
7 Q. I think you said in your evidence that, as far as you know, they
8 had just arrived, is that correct, the family had just arrived?
9 A. Yes, they came on foot to me, but the mother, wife and children,
10 they -- the mother was sent to live with his brothers, and they
11 came to me in the afternoon hours to visit my family home which
12 was not very far away.
13 Q. Was that, so far as you know, the first day that they arrived in
14 Banja Luka?
15 A. For Dusko, yes, but for the wife and children, I concluded from
16 what they told me that they had arrived earlier.
17 Q. You say that you visited the house in Kozarac at sometime prior
18 to the conflict commencing; I think you said, was it, 10 to 15
19 days before the conflict started?
20 A. Yes, before the conflict, probably that period of 10 to 15 days
21 I visited their family house. I was on my way from Sanski Most
22 because my father's -- my father comes from around Sanski Most.
23 I went to visit some uncles and some relatives there, and as
24 I was returning I was passing on the main road, some kilometre
25 or two kilometres from the house, so it was on my way and I came
26 to visit.
27 Q. Were there any constraints on travel at that time or were you
28 able to freely drive along the roads?
1 A. I could not travel very freely, no. I left the main road and I
2 was met by the Territorial Unit of Kozarac, the Territorial
3 Defence Unit. At that time this was a self-styled Unit because
4 the authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina had not separated yet and
5 the Muslims built their own units. They had an emplacement,
6 machine gun emplacement. There were young people armed with
7 karabins, with rifles, with automatic rifles. They had military
8 blouses and jeans and tennis shoes and so on. For a Territorial
9 Unit, they were rather funnily dressed, unusually dressed.
10 Q. Were there no armed Serbs around?
11 A. In that place there was a very small number of Serbs and the
12 Serbs at that time were not armed. They had no checkpoints of
13 their own. This was very early on, and the clashes began around
14 Kozarac in Prijedor, Kozarac in fact, and it was only then that
15 checkpoints started to be manned. The voluntary guards were in
16 villages in the Croat, Serb, Muslim villages and so on.
17 Q. So there was no unrest or clashes anywhere else, anywhere in
18 opstina Prijedor, prior to the commencement of the military
19 activities in Kozarac, is that what you are saying?
20 A. No, no. Apart from Slavonia. Slavonia -- that is the Croatian
21 territory, of course.
22 Q. No, I am talking about Prijedor itself, the opstina of
24 A. People were mobilized who were leaving for Slavonia from the
25 different communes and they were mostly Serbs. They were
26 leaving for Croatia to fight there and they were mobilized.
27 Q. So at this time there was a war going on in Croatia, was there,
28 at the time you are talking about?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. When you saw the broken window in Dule Tadic's shop premises,
3 did he explain to you how this had happened?
4 A. He said that a boy came to -- for provocation; because he was a
5 Serb, Dusko was a Serb, he threw a stone. But Dusko, fearing
6 wider unrest, did not do anything. He simply tried to calm down
7 the situation and continued to work.
8 Q. Did he say what the ethnic background of this boy was?
9 A. Yes, he was a Muslim.
10 Q. Did he say whether he had any other problems with Muslims prior
11 to this incident?
12 A. He told me about this one problem. That was the only one which
13 you could see, obviously, because the glass was broken as a
14 result, and he said that most of the Muslims have stopped
15 visiting his coffee shop, although some local Muslims were,
16 indeed, still coming because he, Dusko, did not avoid
17 socializing with them.
18 Q. I take it he was upset about the window of his shop being
20 A. Well, before the window was broken he showed no signs of
21 unrest. After that again his initial rage at the damage and so
22 on calmed down. So he was cool when he was explaining it to me.
23 Q. You say that you visited his flat in Prijedor, his apartment?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Whose apartment was that prior to Tadic moving into it?
26 A. I honestly do not know. I do not know. I know that he was
27 given the use of the flat, but from whom he got it and whose it
28 was, I just do not know. Sometimes people have a house and have
1 a flat and it was against the rules to have both, so they would
2 then ask somebody to take over the flat, simply to watch over
3 it, to protect it, if you like. People are still doing that
5 Q. It was a rather nice flat, was it not?
6 A. Not specially luxurious, but it was, I think, a two-room
7 apartment, nothing special, but this was enough for a family.
8 Q. Was it poorly?
9 A. It was not a bad apartment. This was a medium quality
11 Q. I think you said that you saw him a couple of times in Banja
12 Luka after the initial visit when you first saw him, is that
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What dates were they?
16 A. The dates were in the period of several days in an interval when
17 I was free, when he was free, we could meet. My wife had a
18 private business, so I was helping her in this business. So
19 Dusko would come along often. We would have a drink together in
20 a cafe and then on one occasion he showed me a newspaper,
21 I think a Zagreb newspaper, where we could together read where
22 it said: "Dusko Tadic, a war criminal". There was a big
23 headline. The paper described massacre, rape and various other
24 actions at which we simply laughed. This was incredible. This
25 was just a lie, a big lie.
26 Q. This was published in Zagreb about the same time as you saw
27 him ----
28 A. It was a Zagreb newspaper, yes.
1 Q. What, he had been indicted as a war criminal by this Tribunal,
2 had he?
3 A. No, no. That was before, before that. This was -- he was
4 accused by the media, by the Muslim/Croat media. Somebody
5 accused him like that and we read that as an article in the
6 newspaper. It was not very clear because he was not even there,
7 and if he himself had felt that he was a war criminal he would
8 not have gone to Germany to ask for a job and live with his
10 Q. But if he had known that people were claiming that he was a war
11 criminal, he would have to be somewhat circumspect, would he
12 not, in going to Germany or anywhere else outside the Republika
14 A. Well, he, of course, would have been more circumspect, but he
15 never could believe that he would be arrested, that he would be
16 brought to answer for these things because he felt he had not
17 done that. Personally, as a friend of his, I think that it is
18 impossible for him to have done such acts, and that is why
19 I have agreed to come here and testify.
20 Q. Can you tell me the crimes that he was accused of in this
21 newspaper article?
22 A. That he killed somebody called Karabasic, Karabasic I think was
23 the name. Karabasic I knew personally and he was a
24 weightlifter, and Dusko -- and then he was friends with the
25 Tadic brothers who actually helped him to develop this
26 particular sport in Kozarac, weightlifting. He was a short man,
27 well built, with good muscles, and we, as a karate school, from
28 his brother's club, we came and demonstrated karate and he
1 demonstrated weightlifting to the young people of Kozarac. So,
2 and also he brought some of his pupils and he -- and they
3 demonstrated weightlifting. This was a rather primitive
4 demonstration. This was back in 1977, I think, '78 perhaps. So
5 he was, well, Dusko was in good relations and in both private
6 and business with Muslims.
7 Q. I see. This article about the killing, the allegation that said
8 that he had killed Karabasic, this was about May 1992, was it,
9 the article that you read?
10 A. May or June, probably June, I would say. This was the time when
11 he was in Banja Luka and this was probably early June. It was
12 summer. I remember that we were sitting outside and having a
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
17 MR. KAY: Just one matter, your Honour.
18 Re-examined by MR. KAY
19 Q. Did you take part in the conflict in Kozarac at all?
20 A. No.
21 MR. KAY: Thank you. That is all I ask.
22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?
23 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.
24 Examined by the Court
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Petrovic, what is your ethnicity, what
26 ethnic group do you belong to?
27 A. I am an Orthodox person, belonging to the Orthodox religion.
28 Q. Does that mean that you are a Serb?
1 A. A Serb, well, Serbs are in Serbia. They are real genuine Serbs
2 and we are Orthodox people in Bosnia and I was born in Serbia,
3 but my origins are in Bosnia.
4 Q. So you consider yourself an Orthodox Christian, would that be
5 your religion?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. The apartment that you visited where Mr. Tadic was living with
8 his family in Banja Luka, you visited that apartment on several
9 occasions, is that correct?
10 A. Yes, where he lived in the apartment -- you mean with his family
11 in Banja Luka?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. No, I did not go to that apartment, no.
14 Q. Just in Prijedor was when you visited him?
15 A. Prijedor and then Kozarac before the outbreak of the conflict
16 and there I visited the apartments.
17 Q. So you never visited his apartment in Banja Luka?
18 A. My tempo in life was much greater than his. I had to work
19 hard. He had more time, so he would come and visit me. I did
20 not visit him in that apartment. I do not know even know why
21 I did not, but we used to meet in the town and I had no need to
22 go to visit him in the apartment. His wife would come to my
23 house and visit us, for instance.
24 Q. Do you know where he lived in Banja Luka?
25 A. Starcevica is a section, a district, in Banja Luka, yes.
26 Q. Do you know the street, the name of the street?
27 A. No, I do not. Many of the street names have been changed in the
28 meantime and those that had some kind of Muslim names, various
1 popular heroes or writers. These have been changed now and
2 there are Orthodox names now of people, Orthodox people, having
3 the names in the streets.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Mr. Kay?
5 MR. KAY: No thank you, your Honour.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?
7 MR. NIEMANN: No.
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mr. Petrovic being
9 permanently excused?
10 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. We would like him not to be excused
11 at this stage.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Petrovic, you are subject to being recalled
13 as a witness in this case. So you should make yourself
14 available to the Tribunal. You should be in touch with Mr. Kay
15 and Mr. Kay will tell you when and if you are needed to return
16 to the Tribunal. Do you understand that?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes. You mean today or in the future?
18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No, in the future. You are free to go home to
19 Banja Luka now, but you should make yourself available to
20 return. You may be asked to return to come to testify. Will
21 you do that?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. You are now excused. Thank you
24 very much for coming.
25 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
26 (The witness withdrew)
27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, would you call your next witness?
28 MR. KAY: Yes, the next witness is Borka Rakic, your Honour.
1 BORKA RAKIC, called.
2 Examined by MR. KAY
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Would you please take the oath that is being
4 handed to you?
5 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak
6 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
7 (The witness was sworn)
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated. Mr. Kay?
9 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.
10 Q. Is your name Borka Rakic?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Are you from Banja Luka?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What is your occupation?
15 A. I am a lawyer.
16 Q. Whereabouts do you work as a lawyer?
17 A. If the Chamber insists, I will answer that question -- must I?
18 Q. If no one else thinks it is important, perhaps I can pass over
19 it ----
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?
21 MR. KAY: --- and maybe I can give an indication to the Prosecution
22 over the short adjournment.
23 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, we would like to know, your Honour.
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess at 11.30 so you can
25 talk about it then.
26 MR. KAY [To the witness]: Are you married?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Do you know Dusko Tadic?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. For how long have you known him?
3 A. For a very long time. My sister is married to his brother.
4 Q. Which brother is that?
5 A. Dusko. My sister is married to his brother Dusko. I have known
6 him for 15 years, if not longer.
7 Q. Perhaps you can tell us which of the Tadic brothers you know?
8 A. I know Mladen, I know Ljubo. My sister is married to Ljubo.
9 Q. The other brothers, do you know any of the other brothers?
10 A. Dusko, yes, Stojan, yes. I forgot that.
11 Q. How often have you seen Dusko Tadic in the past before the
12 conflict in Kozarac?
13 A. I saw him seldom before the outbreak of the conflict in Kozarac.
14 Q. Did you spend most of your time in Banja Luka where you work?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you ever visit the Tadic family home in Kozarac?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. How often was that?
19 A. Seldom, since I have to work.
20 Q. Are you married?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you have children?
23 A. I do.
24 Q. Were you aware of the conflict occurring in Kozarac in 1992?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Did you see Dusko Tadic at all at the time of that conflict in
28 A. Yes.
1 Q. Was that before the conflict or after?
2 A. He came before the conflict.
3 Q. Do you know whereabouts the Tadic family were staying in Banja
5 A. I do. They were staying in Koste Jarica Street which is a
6 street which is some 10 minutes away from the street on which my
7 mother lives.
8 Q. Perhaps if you could spell the name of that street?
9 A. Where Dusko stayed?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. K-O-S-T-E J-A-R-I-C-A.
12 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I mention that because of the transcript.
13 (To the witness): Do you know when the Tadic family came to
14 stay in that house in Koste Jarica street?
15 A. In May.
16 Q. Do you know what the family consisted, what members of the
17 family were there at that time?
18 A. His mother, wife, two children and Dusko, of course.
19 Q. Do you know how long they stayed in that house for in Koste
20 Jarica street?
21 A. They stayed there in May, June and part of July.
22 Q. How far away from the house where they were staying was your
23 parents' house which you said was nearby? Are you able to tell
24 us in metres?
25 A. Very close, about 10 minutes walk, perhaps less. They are
26 small, short streets.
27 Q. Did you ever visit the Tadic family in this house where they
28 were staying at that time?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you know, for instance, how they obtained that property, how
3 they came to live there? Do you know the circumstances how they
4 came to be there?
5 A. I do not know the reason why he came, but personally I think
6 that any man, regardless of his religion or his race, will flee
7 his home if he feels threatened.
8 Q. I would like you to look at an exhibit now which is D62A, if
9 that could be shown to the witness? (Handed) There is a
10 photograph there in front of you, madam, of a house. Do you
11 recognise that house at all?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What can you tell us about that house?
14 A. I think that this is the house that he stayed in.
15 Q. Perhaps if that could be put on the monitor? Can you tell us
16 how often you went to that house when the Tadic family were
18 A. Not often. I met him in the family circle with my mother's or
19 at his brothers'.
20 Q. So you saw them at other places other than the house where they
21 were staying in Koste Jarica Street, would that be right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you know how long Dusko Tadic and his family stayed in Banja
24 Luka for?
25 A. It was for about two, two and a half months.
26 Q. Do you know what Dusko Tadic was doing at this time?
27 A. I do not.
28 Q. The occasions you have described seeing him and family
1 gatherings, did you know why the family had come to Banja Luka?
2 A. Well, I do not know the motive behind his coming.
3 Q. When you saw Dusko Tadic at this time, was he expressing any
4 extreme nationalist views?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you know him to be an extremist in politics at all?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Do you know if Dusko Tadic remained living or staying with his
9 family in Banja Luka at this time?
10 A. At that time while he stayed there he did, but then he left for
12 Q. Are you able to tell us when that would have been when he left
13 for Prijedor?
14 A. You mean it was in July.
15 MR. KAY: Thank you. That is all I ask. That might be an
16 appropriate moment, your Honour.
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.
18 (11.30 a.m.)
19 (The Court adjourned for a short time)
20 (11.50 a.m.)
21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Did you, lawyers, resolve the issue that came
22 up right before recess?
23 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, we will not be pressing the question.
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, very good. Thank you. Mr. Kay, have you
26 MR. KAY: I have concluded, your Honour.
27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. Mr. Niemann?
28 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour.
1 Cross-examined by MR. NIEMANN
2 Q. Madam, what is your date of birth?
3 A. 15th April'52.
4 Q. What is your ethnic background or nationality?
5 A. I am of an Orthodox religion and I am a Serb.
6 Q. You mentioned in your evidence-in-chief about the conflict in
7 Kozarac. How did you come to know about that?
8 A. In talking to friends in the street. In Banja Luka people
9 talked about that.
10 Q. Where did these people come from that you spoke to?
11 A. They were people from Banja Luka, in fact.
12 Q. But they did not tell you how they knew the information?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You had a look at an exhibit, I think, that Mr. Kay showed you,
15 Exhibit 62A. Might that Exhibit be put on the overhead
16 projector and displayed, please?
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It is still there.
18 MR. NIEMANN: Could it be displayed on the screen? Madam, just
19 looking at the photograph on the screen, can you tell me where
20 you entered the building when you went to visit Mr. Tadic and
21 his family?
22 A. We came through the gate outside and they were living on the
23 ground floor of this house.
24 Q. In front of you there there is a silver type pointer, would you
25 take that pointer in your hand and on the photograph itself, but
26 not on the television screen, could you point to where you enter
27 the house?
28 A. [The witness indicated on the photograph].
1 Q. Thank you. How many floors of the house did they occupy?
2 A. Only one part, only one floor.
3 Q. That is the one you are pointing to now?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Madam, have you been watching these proceedings on television,
6 the proceedings of the trial of Dusko Tadic?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you watch it regularly?
9 A. From time to time.
10 Q. You have seen a number of the witnesses that have come and
11 testified, have you?
12 A. No.
13 Q. What part of the proceedings? You tell us. You tell us what
14 parts you have seen?
15 A. I heard it -- I saw it on Croatian radio and television, and
16 they showed these proceedings temporarily from time to time
18 Q. Thank you. You had discussions with Dule from time to time
19 about his political views, did you?
20 A. Not very often. We talked about normal, everyday things, not
22 Q. But you never discussed politics?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You said in your evidence, and I think if I made a note of it
25 correctly, that if people were threatened like him then it is to
26 be expected that they would come to places like Banja Luka. I
27 am not quoting it directly, but I think that is the effect of
28 what you said, is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What was the threat that you were talking about?
3 A. Their lives were threatened, the lives of people were
5 Q. By whom?
6 A. By anybody. If you find that your life is threatened, then it
7 is normal that you should flee.
8 Q. Yes, I understand that, but do you understand who it was that
9 was threatening them?
10 A. The motives of his arrival in Banja Luka are unknown to me.
11 Q. Tell us what those motives are then?
12 A. Unknown to me.
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: She said "unknown".
14 MR. NIEMANN: I am sorry, I thought you said "known".
15 A. I said "unknown".
16 Q. You say you were aware of a threat, but you did not know what
17 the nature of it was?
18 A. Right.
19 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions.
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
21 Re-examined by MR. KAY
22 Q. Mrs. Rakic, did you see Dusko Tadic in Banja Luka then at the
23 time of the conflict in Kozarac?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you see him in Banja Luka after the conflict in Kozarac?
26 A. Could you please repeat the question?
27 Q. Yes, and perhaps the other microphone can be switched on as you
28 are now facing towards me. After the conflict in Kozarac, did
1 you see Dusko Tadic in Banja Luka?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. KAY: Thank you. That is all I ask.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?
5 Further cross-examined by MR. NIEMANN
6 Q. Madam, what do you mean by at the time of the conflict in
8 A. I cannot answer the question.
9 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you. Nothing further.
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
11 MR. KAY: No, thank you, your Honour.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to this witness
13 being -- I am sorry, I forgot you.
14 Examined by the Court
15 JUDGE STEPHEN: Witness, two questions I wanted to ask you. The
16 first one was, when you did see the accused was he wearing a
17 uniform of any sort in Banja Luka?
18 A. No.
19 Q. He was dressed in civilian clothes, was he?
20 A. Civilian clothes, yes.
21 Q. Did you see him using a car at any time in Banja Luka?
22 A. No.
23 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.
24 JUDGE VOHRAH: Witness, could you tell us what the quality of the
25 accommodation was in the house in the picture where the Tadic
26 family lived whilst they were in Banja Luka?
27 A. Well, there was not much comfort, not many conveniences. It was
28 a basement flat.
1 JUDGE VOHRAH: Thank you.
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
3 MR. KAY: No further questions, your Honour.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?
5 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to this witness being
7 permanently excused?
8 MR. NIEMANN: No, we would ask that the witness not be released at
9 this stage.
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You would ask that the witness ----
11 MR. NIEMANN: Not be released.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: --- not be released. OK. Mrs. Rakic, you are
13 not being excused but it means that you still may return to your
14 home, but you are subject to being recalled to the Tribunal to
15 testify. So you should make yourself available, keep in touch
16 with Mr. Kay, and if it is necessary for you to return, then you
17 will be asked to return. Do you understand that?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes.
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Will you do that?
20 THE WITNESS: I will.
21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You are now excused. Thank you
22 very much for coming.
23 (The witness withdrew)
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, would you call your next witness?
25 MR. KAY: Yes, the next witness is Miroslav Brdar.
26 MIROSLAV BRDAR, called
27 Examined by MR. KAY
28 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you please take the oath that is
1 being handed to you?
2 THE WITNESS [In translation]: Should I read it out loud? I solemnly
3 declare I will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but
4 the truth.
5 (The witness was sworn)
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated. Mr. Kay?
7 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.
8 Q. Is your name Miroslav Brdar?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you live in Prijedor?
11 A. I do.
12 Q. What is your occupation, your job?
13 A. I am a worker.
14 Q. In what particular industry?
15 A. Metal working.
16 Q. Are you from Prijedor?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you know Dusko Tadic?
19 A. I do.
20 Q. When did you first meet Dusko Tadic?
21 A. When we started to work on the checkpoint.
22 Q. Which checkpoint was that?
23 A. At Orlovci, the checkpoint of Orlovci, six kilometres away from
25 Q. Is that on the road between Prijedor and Kozarac?
26 A. Right.
27 Q. At the time that you met Dusko Tadic and you worked at
28 checkpoint Orlovci, were you in the police?
1 A. I was.
2 Q. Was that the regular police or the reserve police?
3 A. The reserve police.
4 Q. To work at the checkpoint, was that the traffic police?
5 A. Yes, it was the traffic police.
6 Q. Were your police headquarters based in Prijedor?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. When did you first start working in the reserve traffic police?
9 A. Immediate -- just a few -- a short period of time before
10 arriving at Orlovci checkpoint.
11 Q. Can you remember when that was? Can you recollect the month of
12 the year?
13 A. It was in the summer, summer, early July, three years ago.
14 Q. Had you ever worked in the reserve traffic police before this
15 period of time?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Was working in the reserve traffic police part of your
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Had you worked at checkpoint Orlovci before Dusko Tadic came to
21 work with you at that checkpoint?
22 A. Maybe two to three days before he arrived.
23 JUDGE STEPHEN: Mr. Kay, the witness gave the date early July and
24 then a year.
25 MR. KAY: Yes. Your Honour, I am aware of that and further questions
26 will be directed to that matter.
27 [To the witness]: At the checkpoint Orlovci were you
28 in a Unit of men?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. How many men were in that Unit?
3 A. There were three, three of us from the civilian police and two
4 men from the military police, five people altogether. We, the
5 civilian police, worked in our way and the military police
6 worked on their own task but we occupied the same checkpoint.
7 Q. Did you have any police uniform that you wore?
8 A. Me personally, you mean?
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you describe that uniform?
12 A. It was an old uniform, the normal traffic police uniform that we
13 used to have before the outbreak of the war.
14 Q. What colour was that?
15 A. Light grey. It was my uniform. That is what I wore.
16 Q. You started to work at checkpoint Orlovci two or three days
17 before Dusko Tadic joined you. Can you remember if the names of
18 the people -- sorry, I will not ask that question because it
19 will be confusing. The people that you worked with at
20 checkpoint Orlovci before Dusko Tadic came to join you, did they
21 remain working with you or did any of them leave?
22 A. No, there were changes, there were changes. Some people were
23 transferred to other checkpoints, I do not know why and for what
24 reason, and they simply said that, "The three of you should
25 remain here at the checkpoint Orlovci". The people who used to
26 work with me before he arrived were then transferred to other
28 Q. The Unit of three that you worked with, including Dusko Tadic,
1 did that remain the same group of three people at Orlovci?
2 A. I do not understand the question. Do you mean when Dusko
3 arrived and worked with me?
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. Then the three of us remained, yes, Dusko Tadic, myself and
6 Miroslav Cvijic. We worked together, the three of us. The
7 three of us remained together.
8 Q. Can you recollect for how long you worked together, the three of
9 you, at checkpoint Orlovci?
10 A. For a couple of months, a bit more perhaps. I do not remember
11 the dates, but I would say two months.
12 Q. Did you all wear the same uniform or did you have different
14 A. No, we had different uniforms.
15 Q. Can you remember what uniform Dusko Tadic wore when he was at
16 checkpoint Orlovci?
17 A. As far as I can remember, he had a blouse, the camouflage
18 uniforms, multi-coloured and he also had trousers to match but
19 they were a bit paler, a bit lighter. The blouse was newer and
20 the trousers, pants, were a bit older and, therefore, the
21 colours were not as expressive.
22 Q. The other person in your Unit, Miroslav Cvijic, can you
23 recollect what uniform he wore?
24 A. Simple camouflage uniform, a bit newer and the colours were
25 better, but we had to wear what we had. We could not have -- we
26 could not choose.
27 Q. I would like you now to look at some documents from a book which
28 have been supplied to the Prosecution in advance. Perhaps if
1 you could look at this document?
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger?
3 MR. TIEGER: Before that document is presented to the witness,
4 I would like to raise an objection.
5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes.
6 MR. TIEGER: It is correct to say that that document was provided to
7 the Prosecution in advance. However, in this case "in advance"
8 means at 9 o'clock this morning. We have not had a chance to
9 review the contents of that document. Incidentally, if I may,
10 your Honour, enquire whether or not the witness speaks English?
11 If he does not, I would ask that his headphones be removed
12 during the course of this discussion.
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, Mr. Brdar, do you speak English?
14 THE WITNESS: No.
15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Would you take your earphones off, please?
16 Thank you.
17 MR. TIEGER: We do not know the provenance of this document. We
18 received previous documents, as the Court is aware, along with
19 representations about their origin. I must presume that this
20 document was not obtained at the same time and we cannot rely on
21 those same representations because this document was not
22 presented to us at that time. It was only presented this
24 In addition, I should note this is a rather severely
25 redacted document. It is certainly difficult for that reason
26 alone to decipher on its face and without sufficient time. We
27 would like at least some opportunity to review it properly. We
28 also are certainly going to need to know some more about that
1 document before we can determine whether or not it is
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay? Are you objecting on the grounds of
4 authenticity or not sufficient time to examine, or what is the
5 legal basis, not to be too technical?
6 MR. TIEGER: I think at this point, your Honour, both concerns
7 exist. We have not had an opportunity to give it a proper
8 review or even a sufficiently cursory review to satisfy
9 ourselves that we can properly cross-examine or understand the
10 direct examination of that document. Secondly, for the reasons
11 expressed earlier, we are not in a position to waive any
12 objections to its authenticity or foundation.
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
14 MR. KAY: Perhaps if I can assist the Court? We delivered it last
15 night with a translation. It is a document that recently came
16 into our possession from the trip of the Defence team to opstina
17 Prijedor in August of this year. If I had known there was to be
18 an objection to it, I would, of course, have reshuffled my
19 witnesses and this gentleman would have been called towards the
20 end of the week so that the Prosecution would have had time to
21 look at it and make their decisions.
22 It is a document that comes from Prijedor police
23 station. It was only to be given to us in a redacted form with
24 a few general pages included within it. It is a document that
25 details the shifts at checkpoint Orlovci from June until August
26 1992, including the Unit of three men that the Court has heard
27 about in evidence this morning.
28 As the Court knows, we have had three important
1 witnesses removed from our schedule for this week who were
2 originally to come here to the Court. The document would have
3 been produced through them and they would have had intimate
4 knowledge in relation to the production of the book. That being
5 prevented by a third party caused us to have to rethink how to
6 present this material. This is the only witness that I have
7 presently who will be able to produce this material on behalf of
8 the Defence.
9 It is not a situation of our making. It is a
10 situation that others have caused us to be in. It was
11 originally intended, as I say, for other witnesses to present
12 this material. But that course has been prevented. So this
13 witness, who is aware of a number of background details, is the
14 only means by which I can use this evidence which is important
15 for the Defence alibi.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Why did you not provide it to the Prosecutor
17 earlier? You say you received it in August.
18 MR. KAY: Yes, it has been translated and other documents as well
19 were being translated. I cannot really answer why it was only
20 served last night, but ----
21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: They are saying they have not had enough time
22 to look at it.
23 MR. KAY: Yes.
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: This witness, you estimate that he will require
25 two and a half hours?
26 MR. KAY: Yes.
27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Why do we not proceed and perhaps we can take
28 an early recess? Let us see how far you can get into the
1 testimony. Then that will at least give the Prosecutor over the
2 noon recess to take a look at it ----
3 MR. KAY: I am grateful to your Honour.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: --- and then see if he can prove it up. I do
5 not know whether he will be able to prove it up or not in terms
6 of its authenticity, but see what can be done.
7 MR. KAY: Yes.
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Let us move along without it and then let us
9 see what we can do over the noon recess.
10 MR. KAY: The details concerning its production through this witness
11 we only knew would be possible this morning because we have not
12 seen him with the information. We did not know whether he was
13 aware of these documents.
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, I am saying, perhaps over the recess you
15 can talk with him and see whether he can prove them, establish
16 their authenticity, how they were created and that kind of
18 MR. KAY: Yes, I am grateful to your Honour.
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you put your earphones back on?
20 THE WITNESS: OK.
21 MR. KAY [To the witness]: Did you work the same shift at checkpoint
22 Orlovci each day with Dusko Tadic and Miroslav Cvijic or did
23 that shift vary?
24 A. I worked only with the two of them. We worked together.
25 Q. What I am asking you about is, in fact, the time of day, the
26 shift period. Was there more than one shift at checkpoint
27 Orlovci during 24 hours or was there just the one shift?
28 A. For one group, there was one shift, and if one day we had a day
1 shift, the next day we had a night shift, and that was the
3 Q. Can you give the hours of those shifts that you used to work at
4 checkpoint Orlovci? If you were on a morning shift, when would
5 that start?
6 A. I think, I cannot remember very well, but at 7.00, 7.00 or
7 8 o'clock in the morning, that would be the beginning. In the
8 beginning, we worked shorter shifts, eight hours only. Later,
9 because the situation was different, the shifts were extended
10 and usually it was 10 to 12 hours. But the normal rotation was
11 one day we had a day shift, then we had a night shift.
12 Q. So at the start if you were on an eight hour shift, would there
13 be three different shifts of different units during the day at
14 checkpoint Orlovci?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Later on, when it was extended to a 10 or 12-hour shift, did the
17 shift pattern go down to only two units working at checkpoint
19 A. I think we had the same number of shifts, but if we worked
20 longer, then we also were resting longer. It was too strenuous
21 to work for the whole day.
22 Q. I understand. Who was the leader of your shift of three of
23 Cvijic, Tadic and yourself? Who was in command of the three of
25 A. I would not call him the leader of the shift, but I was
26 responsible in some sense. I was to bring the shift to the
27 checkpoint, also to take it away from the checkpoint and to
28 contact the station, the police station, if necessary.
1 Q. If perhaps now we could look at the routine of the shift?
2 Before you started at checkpoint Orlovci, did you check in at
3 Prijedor police station?
4 A. Each time before we started, we were supposed to meet in front
5 of the police station in Prijedor, and my two colleagues would
6 be waiting in front. I would go inside and talk to the
7 Commander of the police station. We were given the -- we were
8 given the duty, list of duties, for that day and also the keys
9 to the car to take us to the checkpoint.
10 Q. Which Commander of the police station gave you your orders?
11 A. Djuro Prpos.
12 Q. Was he the Commander of the traffic police?
13 A. Yes, yes. I think even now he is still on the same job.
14 Q. Was he in charge of the organisation of the traffic police from
15 Prijedor police station?
16 A. He was. He was completely responsible for the traffic police.
17 He was the Commander before the war, during the war and after
18 the war.
19 Q. He used to give you your orders. What sort of orders would they
20 be before you started your shift?
21 A. Well, normally it was to check civilian traffic and civilian
22 people driving the vehicles. That was all; nothing else.
23 Q. Did you have any weapons with you when you were on checkpoint
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. What sort of weapons were they?
27 A. We had pistols and automatic rifles.
28 Q. The three of you had the same weaponry, did you?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. The pistol and automatic rifle that you were issued with, when
3 were you given that?
4 A. I received the automatic rifle from the civil police when
5 I became a member of the police force in May. That was in early
6 May when the authorities changed hands in Prijedor. As for the
7 pistol, I had it from a person who was in traffic police before
8 and it was my personal -- my personal pistol.
9 Q. You described leaving the police station after you had got your
10 orders in a car. What sort of car was that?
11 A. Dark blue Volkswagen Golf.
12 Q. Was that a police car or a civilian car?
13 A. Police vehicle with license plates of the Prijedor police.
14 Q. Did it have "Police" written on the side?
15 A. At that time it did not say "Police" with us, it said
16 "Milicija", but I think that there was nothing on the car that
17 we had at the time, only the plates were other than "Police" and
18 they had "M" as the starting character.
19 Q. When you started your shift and left in the police car, did the
20 police car remain with you at checkpoint Orlovci?
21 A. We kept it throughout the shift, since we had a radio station in
22 the vehicle, in the car, and we maintained contact with the
23 Prijedor police station.
24 Q. At the end of the shift what happened to the police car?
25 A. Our shift had that one car which meant that the moment we would
26 leave the shift, we would take that car back to the public
27 security station, and those two from the civilian police would
28 stay at the checkpoint, and then we would turn over the car in
1 front of the police station. That was my duty, but at the same
2 time my two colleagues -- I would bring there my two colleagues
3 and then the next shift would take over this car and go over,
4 and this whole procedure lasted for about 10 or 15 minutes.
5 Q. Was it possible for either you or Dusko Tadic to take that car
6 away and use it for your own purposes when you were on duty at
7 checkpoint Orlovci?
8 A. Nothing like that was possible for several reasons. To begin
9 with, we were reserve force of the police and, therefore, our
10 possibilities were somewhat limited. Secondly, we had to take
11 note of the mileage, and you could not avoid it, and you have to
12 justify every kilometre that we passed, including those six
13 kilometres to the police station. We had to submit all the
14 bills, all the receipts. We could not pass any decisions on our
15 own without the consent of the station.
16 Q. At the end of your shift when you returned to Prijedor police
17 station, could one of you take the car away for your own
19 A. How could one use it for one's own purposes when it returned
20 with the next shift to the checkpoint? The vehicle was not
21 there. The vehicle was always at the checkpoint.
22 Q. When you were working with Dusko Tadic at checkpoint Orlovci, do
23 you know where he was living?
24 A. I do. He had then been given an apartment to use at Pecani.
25 These are some apartment blocks.
26 Q. Is that in Prijedor, Pecani?
27 A. Yes. What do you call it, it is a new part of that town.
28 Pecani is some 300 or 400 metres away from the SUP, as the crow
1 flies, I mean.
2 Q. In relation to where you lived during this time, did the police
3 keep records of where you were staying and what your
4 accommodation was?
5 A. I really cannot answer that question.
6 Q. Did you live at this time in a house in Prijedor where you had
7 always lived or had lived for some time?
8 A. Me, yes.
9 Q. When you were off duty, were you able to leave that house
10 without permission of your Commander?
11 A. We had to be at home and not to go away, that is, any distance
12 or to be simply away because we had to be on call, if need be.
13 Q. If you were off duty, could you have travelled around the
14 countryside outside Prijedor without permission?
15 A. No, at that time nobody could go anywhere without permission.
16 Q. The Commander, Djuro Prpos, who was in charge of the traffic
17 police, did he keep checks on your duties? Did he check that
18 you were at your post at Orlovci?
19 A. Sure he did, and we never knew when he would do that. Sometimes
20 he would come two or three times a day, and other colleagues who
21 were with the police, when they would pass through that
22 checkpoint, if there were some irregularities, if I may call it
23 that, would report to him about that. I do not know how to make
24 it clearer to you. Everybody was involved simply.
25 Q. How did you find out which shift you would be on for each day?
26 A. The room in front of Djuro Prpos's office had the schedule on
27 the wall hanging with our shifts, and we ourselves after a few
28 days already knew which shift we would be on because we knew for
1 how long we were supposed to be at work and how long we could
2 rest, although, as I say, there was a schedule, there was a plan
3 of work, hanging on the wall.
4 Q. The schedule that was hanging on the wall, did that give the
5 information about where you would be on duty and what time that
6 would be and who was in the Unit?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Was that schedule prepared from the office which was used by
9 Djuro Prpos for the administration of the traffic police?
10 A. I guess so. I did not check that, but since he issued all the
11 orders he must have been the one who also went through that
13 Q. You said you were mobilized in May. Was that the same year as
14 the conflict in Kozarac in 1992?
15 A. Let me think, I have to remember. It was when we took over the
16 power in Prijedor. I would not know exactly, but that was, yes,
17 that same year.
18 Q. You date that year from the time that power was taken over in
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. By the power in Prijedor, do you mean when the municipality and
22 the Crisis Staff was formed for the running of opstina Prijedor?
23 A. I do not know. I do not understand your question.
24 Q. You referred to power being taken over in Prijedor. What do you
25 mean by that? Perhaps you can explain it in your own words?
26 A. I do not know. Perhaps we use the term which is not quite
27 adequate, but that is when the Serbs took over the power in
28 Prijedor because that was the largest Party.
1 Q. How long did you work in the reserve police from Prijedor police
2 station? You told us you started in May. When did you finish
4 A. I think sometime towards the end of October.
5 Q. When you started your mobilization in the reserve police at
6 Prijedor in May 1992, how long after that was it that you came
7 to checkpoint Orlovci to work there?
8 A. I would not know. I could not be very exact, perhaps a month or
9 a month and a half. I do not know exactly.
10 Q. Dusko Tadic you first met when you went to work at that
11 checkpoint. Did you meet him at the police station for the
12 first time, or did you meet him actually at the checkpoint for
13 the first time?
14 A. Well, naturally in the police station and then we went to the
16 Q. Whilst you were working with him at checkpoint Orlovci, can you
17 think of any times when he absented himself for any long periods
18 from his post there?
19 A. Something like that could not happen, given the circumstances.
20 Q. Whilst you were on duty with him at checkpoint Orlovci, did you
21 talk to him about other matters other than the police work that
22 you were involved with at that checkpoint?
23 A. Well, we usually talked about business, about work and everyday
24 things, nothing else. Why should we?
25 Q. What was his behaviour and character like at this time when you
26 were working with him for those months?
27 A. His behaviour was quite normal. We got along very well, all
28 three of us, and that is something which we agreed on the first
1 day and that is how we did everything. We always agreed, we
2 always reached an understanding. There were no problems.
3 Q. Was he expressing any extreme views to you about nationalist
4 politics or anti-Muslim feelings?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you see socialise with him after work when you were off
8 A. Yes, even though there was very little time for that.
9 Q. Did you ever come across him when you were off duty and he was
10 off duty in Prijedor?
11 A. Very seldom, perhaps only when I went out shopping to buy
12 something for my family, but not that much.
13 Q. Can you remember when you finished working at checkpoint
15 A. I think it was in the beginning of August. I cannot remember
16 exactly, but it could have been three or four days after Dusko
17 Tadic left the checkpoint.
18 Q. When Dusko Tadic left the checkpoint, do you know where else he
19 went to work?
20 A. I cannot be quite sure, but from what I heard -- as a matter of
21 fact, I met him once in the town and we chatted for a while and
22 I learned that he went to Kozarac to work, but I do not know
23 whether that is true or not.
24 Q. Do you know what time that was you had that conversation with
25 him, how long after the time that he had finished working with
26 you at checkpoint Orlovci?
27 A. Why, I think it must have been a day or two later when we met in
28 town, so I asked him what he was doing, how he was doing and
1 like that.
2 Q. The third member of your Unit, Miroslav Cvijic, did he continue
3 working with you at checkpoint Orlovci for those two or three
4 days after Dusko Tadic had left?
5 A. As far as I can remember, Cvijic was the first one to leave the
7 Q. Your duties after you had finished at checkpoint Orlovci, where
8 did you go to work after that?
9 A. I continued to be on the reserve civilian police. I was on
10 duty in town in front of the Balkan hotel in Prijedor.
11 Q. For how long did you work there?
12 A. For about a month, perhaps a little longer. After that I was
13 under directives of labour and I went back to the company where
14 I worked, where I had worked before the war.
15 Q. Were records kept of the hours of shifts that you worked at
16 checkpoint Orlovci?
17 A. Yes, the shift Commander had it. After I would go to him and
18 reported that the whole shift had arrived. I would be given the
19 keys of the official car and he would note it down, and I would
20 leave the office and go to the checkpoint.
21 Q. Do you know in what document he noted down when you reported for
22 your shift?
23 A. As far as I can recall, it was a large green notebook, thickish
24 and it had already printed room for columns and things to write
25 in schedules and times and such like.
26 Q. Were the other shifts of the traffic police also listed in this
28 A. Of course, all the shifts were in there.
1 Q. So the pages of that document would contain the names of other
2 policemen, other than the three of you working at checkpoint
4 A. Well, I do not know whether the Commander recorded in the same
5 book or not, but we all had the same obligation to report.
6 Whether there was one book for per checkpoint or different books
7 for checkpoints, I do not know. I know only about the one where
8 he recorded our shift.
9 Q. Were there any other documents that you were aware of that that
10 recorded the hours that you worked as a policeman and the shifts
11 that you worked?
12 A. If there were or if there were not I do not know, because I had
13 no access to these documents. Commander Duro Prpos would know
14 it better because after I would take up duty I would simply take
15 the keys and leave. I never stayed in that office long, never
16 longer than five or 10 minutes.
17 Q. I would like you to look at a document here. This is one that
18 was served on the Prosecution much earlier in the year, your
19 Honour, it is for June '92. I would like you to look at the
20 document which I tender before the Court as D63A.
21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Which is the number? Is there a number on the
22 one that was given to the Prosecutor or do you have it before
23 you, Mr. Tieger?
24 MR. KAY: It did have the computer code for the monitor of A/-2/-1.
25 MR. TIEGER: I believe we are talking about the same document. If it
26 would be possible to take a quick look at the document before
27 the witness has it.
28 MR. KAY: Of course.
1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Would you please show the Prosecution.
3 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.
4 MR. KAY: Mr. Brdar, this is a photocopy from the pages of a book. I
5 would like you to tell me if you recognise, not the information
6 on the pages, but the book from this copy?
7 A. I think this is the book that I talked about.
8 Q. By "this book" what do you mean? What information would have
9 been in this book?
10 A. I think that the Commander noted down our presence, but how did
11 he do it, how did he keep the book, the records, I would not
13 Q. Thank you. Your Honour, there are copies here for your Honours
14 because it is something that will be too indistinct to use on
15 the overhead monitor. Translations have also been done of the
16 same pages, your Honour. The translation here I tender before
17 the Court as D63B. There is no need to put that in front of the
18 witness, if the Prosecution agree, it seems pointless.
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Are you offering 63A into evidence?
20 MR. KAY: 63A I am offering into evidence, your Honour.
21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to 63A and then we will
22 talk about B?
23 MR. TIEGER: First of all, for convenience purposes there is of
24 course no objection to the translated portion being presented to
25 the Court at this time rather than the document which is in
26 front of the witness at this moment. However, it appears to me
27 that the relevance and foundation of this document are in the
28 process of being explained. I have no objection to the Court
1 looking at the document and considering it as we proceed, but
2 I would prefer to reserve any final objection on the document
3 until we are concluded.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is this a part of the document -- no, you said that
5 this and I gather the translation were given shortly after you
6 received it?
7 MR. KAY: The document itself in Serbo-Croat was served in February
8 of this year, not the translation. We have had that done for
9 court purposes to assist your Honours. It is merely there for
10 guidance and put forward as D63B.
11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So, Mr. Tieger, what is your objection to 63A?
12 MR. TIEGER: Again, there is no question but that the translation
13 which is presented to the Court now will be of assistance as
14 counsel is questioning the witness. There is no objection with
15 respect to the timing of receipt. Nevertheless, it is my
16 impression that both the relevance and relative foundation of
17 this document are exactly the subject matter of the current line
18 of enquiry, and I would like to reserve any ultimate objection
19 on the admissibility of this document until that is concluded.
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, would you take your earphones off,
21 please? Would you take your earphones off.
22 (The witness removed his earphones).
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I gather it is a schedule. Is it a schedule
24 for everyone or is it just a schedule for he and the two other
25 persons who worked at the checkpoint during the hours that he
26 worked, or is it something else?
27 MR. KAY: It is a schedule of working hours for Dusko Tadic. This
28 witness is not included on the page. There are numbers on the
1 page and Tadic happens to be No. 45. Elsewhere in the book this
2 witness would have been found. We have had only access to it in
3 the form that we can present it.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So it is a schedule for Mr. Tadic?
5 MR. KAY: Yes.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: This I gather from listening to the witness was
7 prepared by the Shift Commander, if the Shift Commander did for
8 Mr. Tadic what he did for him. I am sure there would no reason
9 why he would not. I suppose, I do not know, that is what the
10 Prosecutor would argue. The Shift Commander, though, he is not
11 one of the three witnesses? Is he one of the three witnesses?
12 MR. KAY: Duro Prpos, your Honour.
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I guess we had talked about that in camera.
14 Perhaps we can talk about that because he still may be coming as
15 a witness.
16 MR. KAY: Not coming, your Honour. We have had no response to our
18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That is what I said. The letter was sent. We
19 can talk about it in closed to see whether there is any
20 response. What I would like to find out is the status of him as
21 a witness.
22 We will stand in recess now. Is there anything else
23 that either one wants to say about this document and about the
24 objection so that we can consider it over the noon recess,
25 unless the parties can reach some agreement? Yes, Mr. Tieger.
26 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour. I just want to make it clear that it
27 is not the Prosecution's intention to place unreasonable
28 obstacles in front of the admissibility of any document,
1 particularly in the light of the known complications surrounding
2 obtaining documents. Nevertheless, I was in a position, and
3 remain in a position I think, to evaluate the aspects of this
4 document relative to its admissibility at what struck me as a
5 fairly early stage. The point being that we may be able to
6 resolve it over the recess. It may well be that this witness or
7 the representations of counsel can obviate any potential
8 problems foreseen by the Prosecution. My only concern was based
9 on the information I had available at this stage of the
10 examination, I had concerns about what this document meant and
11 where it might be going. So it might not be a problem.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think, Mr. Kay, this is the document that you
13 gave in early February?
14 MR. KAY: That is right.
15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: In Serbo-Croat. The translation you have not
16 given at all, but you do have a copy for us?
17 MR. KAY: Yes.
18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You might give that to the Prosector over the
19 lunch recess as well and the two of you can talk.
20 MR. KAY: I am sure they have had it translated already, your Honour.
21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: As many problems as we have had with
22 translation, maybe we need a copy of theirs and a copy of your
23 translation and then we can put them together and see how
24 different they are. I think they should have a copy of whatever
25 we are looking at, that is my only point, but that is easy to
26 resolve. The two of you get together, see if you can work it
27 out. I am very much interested in receiving as much evidence as
28 possible. We try not to apply technical rules. So, if you can
1 work it out then that will save the Judges having to make a
2 ruling on it.
3 We will stand in recess until 2.30.
4 (1.00 p.m.)
5 (Luncheon Adjournment)
1 (2.30 p.m.)
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Regarding the matter relating to, what was it,
3 63, was it 63A, have you, lawyers, talked about that?
4 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour, we have. The bottom line is that
5 I think, in view of the Tribunal's Rules, the Prosecution's
6 concerns are more a matter of the weight to be given to these
7 documents than their admissibility. We, therefore, do not
8 object to their tender in the fashion the Defence sought.
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Very good. We will listen to the
10 testimony, see how it comes in and we will admit it and give it
11 the weight appropriate. So 63A is admitted and 63B is also
12 admitted. Are you ready for the witness?
13 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour, if Mr. Brdar could be returned to court?
14 MIROSLAV BRDAR, recalled
15 Examined by MR. KAY, continued.
16 MR. KAY: Your Honour, for the record, I have just handed into the
17 Court two documents, one a record sheet with the writing in
18 Serbo-Croat which is D63A. It is marked "June '92". The second
19 document is a translation of that into English, but with the
20 records still the same. That is 63B. Your Honours will notice
21 that date and type of duty or changes and number of hours on
22 duty is on the top of that translation. This witness has before
23 him solely the document in Serbo-Croat which is 63A and 63B is
24 given to the Court for guidance.
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Will you, Mr. Kay, ask the witness to help with
26 these numbers that are in the boxes? I am having a little
28 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I will take the witness through the document.
1 I am sorry.
2 Q. Mr. Brdar, if you could just look at that document that is in
3 front of you, if you could unfold it? Do you see on that
4 document the name of Tadic Dusko?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. There are other names in columns on that document with part of
7 the name covered over, is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You told us that you were aware that this document formed part
10 of a book in Prijedor police station, is that right?
11 A. Yes, it is right.
12 Q. What did you understand then the contents of this document to
14 A. I think that it records the day and hour of the duty of the
16 Q. Thank you. If we look at the column 45 for Tadic, Dusko, in
17 June 1992 and look at the right hand of the page below 16, can
18 you see that? Do you see in the box for 16 the figures 7 to 15
19 over an 8?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What would that indicate to you?
22 A. This is probably the -- our shift from 7.00 to 3 o'clock in the
23 afternoon which means an eight-hour shift.
24 Q. Thank you. Just above that there is another figure that
25 reads "KS 760" maybe even "780". Do you know what that series
26 of figures and letters there would indicate? You can see in the
27 column for 17 it is rather more clearly as "KS 716". Do you
28 know what that stands for?
1 A. I would not know. I think this is some kind of code used by the
3 Q. Thank you. If we move to the next box for 17th June, what are
4 the hours recorded there of the shift?
5 A. The same as on the previous day.
6 Q. And is that 7 to 15 for eight hours?
7 A. Yes, 7 to 15, eight hours work.
8 Q. If we move to 18th June, can you see what hours for the shift
9 are recorded there?
10 A. 21 which means 9 o'clock in the afternoon, in the evening, until
11 7.00 in the morning.
12 Q. How many hours would that shift have been?
13 A. 10 hour shift.
14 Q. Is that 10 hours?
15 A. That is what it says here. I think it is true.
16 Q. Thank you. If we move now to 19th June, can we see what hours
17 that shift would have worked on that day?
18 A. Again, like on the previous day, from 21 p.m. until 7.00 in the
19 morning, 10 hours.
20 Q. If we move to the 20th June, can we see what hours of shift are
21 recorded there?
22 A. 15 p.m. until 21, which would mean from afternoon until evening,
23 six hours.
24 Q. If we move to 21st June, can we see what hours the shift would
25 have been then?
26 A. Identical as for the 20th.
27 Q. That is 1500 hours to 2100 hours for six hours?
28 A. 15 to 21, six hours.
1 Q. If we move to 22nd June, can we see what hours of shift would
2 have been worked then?
3 A. 7.00 to 1500, eight hours.
4 Q. And 23rd June?
5 A. Again 7.00 to 1500, eight hours.
6 Q. If we move to 24th June, can we see what shift hours were worked
8 A. Again repeated, 21 p.m. until 7.00 in the morning, 10 hours.
9 Q. 25th June?
10 A. The same again, 2100 until 7.00 in the morning, 10-hour shift.
11 Q. If we move to 26th June?
12 A. Then we see again 1500 to 2100, six hours.
13 Q. 27th June?
14 A. Again 1500 to 2100, six hours work.
15 Q. 28th June?
16 A. 28th, 7.00 to 1500, eight-hour shift.
17 Q. 29th June?
18 A. 7.00 to 1500, eight hours.
19 Q. Then 30th June?
20 A. 2100 until 7.00 in the morning, 10-hour shift.
21 Q. On this document there are names that have been obscured by
22 black ink, but is it correct that this document also reflects
23 other working hours in other shifts for other names within the
25 A. Do you mean from the Orlovci checkpoint or some other
27 Q. Not Orlovci checkpoint, but just generally maybe other
28 checkpoints or other duties, but other names recorded as working
1 other periods of duty?
2 A. Yes, yes quite.
3 Q. Thank you. I would like you now to look at another document
4 which is the July sheet. If this document could be, first of
5 all, shown to Mr. Tieger and then put before the witness?
6 (Handed). If it could be marked 64A?
7 Mr. Brdar, could you just look at that document that
8 has been placed before you, and tell us whether you recognise it
9 as a similar sheet of paper for July 1992 as you were looking at
10 for June 1992?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you. Your Honours, I have got here again in the same form
13 a copy for each of your Honours, if they could be marked 64A for
14 the Serbo-Croat and 64B for the English translation and there is
15 an extra copy for Mr. Bos.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to 64A and 64B?
17 MR. TIEGER: No, your Honour.
18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: They will be admitted.
19 MR. KAY: I am much obliged. Mr. Brdar, if you could look again at
20 this document which is headed "July '92", and do you see at
21 position 43 in the column the name "Tadic, Dusko"?
22 A. I do.
23 Q. Perhaps if you could look at this document again with us? Does
24 it record on 1st July what hours of shift Dusko Tadic was
25 recorded as working?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. What were those hours?
28 A. 2100 until 7 o'clock in the morning, a 10-hour shift.
1 Q. 2nd July?
2 A. 2nd July, 1500 until 2100 in the evening which means six hours.
3 Q. 3rd July?
4 A. 3rd July, the same, 1500 until 21 in the evening, six hours
6 Q. 4th July?
7 A. 4th July, 700 to 1500, eight-hour shift.
8 Q. 5th July?
9 A. 5th July, 7 to 15 again, eight hours.
10 Q. 6th July?
11 A. 2100 until 7.00 in the morning, 10 hours.
12 Q. 8th July?
13 A. 700 to 1900, 12 hours work.
14 Q. 9th July?
15 A. From 1900 until 7.00 in the morning, 12 hours again.
16 Q. 11th July?
17 A. 8.00 to 2000, 12 hours shift.
18 Q. 12th July?
19 A. 2000 to 8.00 in the morning, 12 hours.
20 Q. 14th July?
21 A. 800 to 2000, 12 hours.
22 Q. 15th July?
23 A. 1900 to 7.00 in the morning, 12 hours.
24 Q. 17th July?
25 A. 700 to 1900, 12 hours.
26 Q. 18th July?
27 A. 1900 to 7.00 in the morning, 12 hours.
28 Q. 20th July?
1 A. 7 to 1900, 12 hours.
2 Q. 21st July?
3 A. 1900 to 7.00 in the morning, 12 hours.
4 Q. 23rd July?
5 A. 7 to 1900, 12 hours.
6 Q. 24th July?
7 A. 1900 to 7.00 in the morning, 12-hour shift.
8 Q. 26th July?
9 A. 7 to 1900, 12 hours.
10 Q. 27th July?
11 A. 1900 to 7.00 in the morning, 12-hour shift.
12 Q. 29th July?
13 A. 7 to 1900, 12 hours.
14 Q. 30th July?
15 A. 1900 to 7.00 in the morning, 12 hours.
16 Q. If we just look at column 48 which is the bottom line on this
17 document and we see there a name "Miroslav" and then a letter
18 "C"; if Miroslav Cvijic was within your Unit, would he have
19 been working the same hours as Dusko Tadic?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you. Again this document, 64A, has other names on it
22 which have been blanked over and contains other timings for
23 shifts, is that correct?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. Thank you. I would like you now to look at another document,
26 which is the August document. (Handed) If this could be marked
27 65A, shown to Mr. Tieger and then shown to the witness?
28 Mr. Brdar, can you look at that document that is before you? It
1 is dated August '92. Do you recognise it as being a similar
2 page of a book that we have been looking at for the months of
3 June and July?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. KAY: Your Honours, copies are here for you; 65A in the
6 Serbo-Croat and 65B in a translated form in English.
7 I apologise for the copies, but that is how they were given to
8 us originally.
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Defence 65A and 65B?
10 MR. TIEGER: No objection, your Honour.
11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: They will be admitted.
12 MR. KAY [To the witness]: Looking at this document, Mr. Brdar,
13 headed "August '92", do you see the name of Tadic Dusko in
14 column 69?
15 A. I do.
16 Q. For 1st August, can you tell us what hours of shift were worked
17 by Mr. Tadic?
18 A. 7 to 1900, 12-hour shift.
19 Q. Looking at No. 68 above there, we can see a "B" and then the
20 rest of the name has been crossed out, but then there is an "M"
21 and a "Miroslav". What hours of work did that person work at
22 No. 68?
23 A. The same, 7 to 1900, a 12-hour shift.
24 Q. Then, in fact, did on 2nd August that person have a different
25 shift duty from that of Mr. Tadic?
26 A. I cannot see very well. I do not see Tadic's time but I see
27 Miroslav's time very well.
28 Q. Yes, Tadic does not have a time for 2nd August, but Miroslav has
1 a time from 1900 to 7.00 in the morning of the next day for 12
2 hours, is that right?
3 A. Quite, yes, until 7.00.
4 Q. Yes. That is all I ask you about this document, save to say
5 again are there names which have had the full names blacked out
6 but again it indicates timings of shifts from the same book?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you understand this book to be part of the records held at
9 Prijedor police station?
10 A. Yes, I think so.
11 Q. Would it have been compiled under the authority of the Commander
12 called Djuro Prpos?
13 A. I think this was done by him personally.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 JUDGE STEPHEN: Are you, Mr. Kay, going to ask anything about the
16 notes in the far margin?
17 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I will certainly assist the Court. I was
18 actually going to ask something else at this stage relating to
19 the last answer, but I will certainly deal with that, your
21 JUDGE STEPHEN: In your time.
22 MR. KAY: Thank you. [To the witness]: You refer to Djuro Prpos as
23 having been the person responsible for this book. In relation
24 to record keeping and details concerning his policemen involved
25 under his command, what would you say about Djuro Prpos's
26 accuracy and his desire to have records made of the shift hours?
27 A. All had that duty, not only Djuro Prpos; other Commanders also
28 had to keep their books and keep schedules and records, because
1 they had to know where people were, what they were doing, when
2 they were coming back.
3 Q. So far you are aware from your involvement with Djuro Prpos, was
4 he a Commander who kept accurate records?
5 A. I think he was quite conscientious because had it not been so
6 I believe they would have replaced him. He would not have been
7 there for such a long time.
8 Q. Thank you. His Honour Judge Stephen has asked about some notes
9 that are on the right-hand side of the book that you are looking
10 at. Column 7 which runs down the right-hand side of the page is
11 headed "Remarks"?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. If we look, for instance, at the "Remarks" next to Dusko Tadic's
14 column of 69, it is the third from bottom ----
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. --- are you able to tell us what that says? Can you read it on
17 your copy that you have before you?
18 A. Yes, I can. "On 5th August 1992 transferred to shift centre 1
19 for the purposes of service".
20 Q. Could you explain to us what "shift centre 1" would mean?
21 A. I would not really be able to because, in addition to the public
22 Security Centre in the centre of the town, there were two or
23 more police stations opened right about that time. So I really
24 would not know quite exactly which one of these stations it was.
25 Q. Would shift centre 1 have its own records of shift duty and
26 hours to be worked that would not be within the book that we
27 have just looked at?
28 A. I believe so. I think that every unit and every centre should
1 keep its own records.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 JUDGE STEPHEN: I am sorry to interrupt again, Mr. Kay, but our
4 translation on that sheet does not have what the witness read in
5 the Yugoslav. It does not have the date which clearly does seem
6 to appear on the original of 5th August.
7 MR. KAY: I think what is ----
8 JUDGE STEPHEN: The English translation simply says "transferred",
10 MR. KAY: Yes. I think that in the column below that for No. 70 ----
11 JUDGE STEPHEN: The same.
12 MR. KAY: --- you will see the date there ----
13 JUDGE STEPHEN: Yes.
14 MR. KAY: --- but it has been missed out on that. The column above
15 for "B Miroslav" which was No. 68, your Honour will see a date
16 there that has been included being 8th August.
17 JUDGE STEPHEN: We can write in in the Tadic column "on 5th August"?
18 MR. KAY: Yes.
19 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.
20 MR. KAY [To the witness]: Just looking at that remark next to
21 No. 68, "BM Miroslav", where it says, "8th August", so it is the
22 remarks column above that of Dusko Tadic's at 69. Can you see
23 that, Mr. Brdar? The remarks for the policeman No. 68, "BM
24 Miroslav" and where it has the date, 8th August '92?
25 A. Yes, yes, I can, yes, I do.
26 Q. Can you read out what that says there?
27 A. "On 8th August 1992 transferred to" -- this I cannot read; this
28 is an acronym --"centre 1", I believe, from where he arrived to
1 this station on 6th September 1992 -- June, I believe.
2 Q. 6th June 92.
3 JUDGE STEPHEN: June? It says "August".
4 MR. KAY: We have just had a translation of "June". [To the
5 witness]: Perhaps read that out again?
6 A. I think this looks like "6". It is only this question "6" which
7 is questionable for a month because there is a signature running
8 across it. There is "8th August 1992 transferred to Eros H
9 centre 1 from which he arrived to this station on 6th June",
10 I think that this figure here is 6, "1992". Perhaps I do not
11 see it well.
12 Q. Thank you. We will have to draw our own conclusions from that,
13 your Honours. Thank you. Does your Honour require me to look
14 at any other details on this sheet of paper?
15 JUDGE VOHRAH: Witness, what does the sign "X" refer to, right at the
16 very top?
17 A. What is it about?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. Do you mean this "X" above the dates or what?
20 Q. Yes, above the date, yes.
21 A. Which is over dates, I mean dates crossed -- I do not really
22 know. Perhaps it could mean Saturday or Sunday. I do not
23 really know.
24 JUDGE VOHRAH: Thank you.
25 MR. KAY: Perhaps if I could assist your Honour? If you look at a
26 1992 calendar, all the dates throughout the sheets that we have
27 looked at with the cross are, in fact, a Sunday.
28 JUDGE VOHRAH: I see.
1 MR. KAY: It can be found on Prosecution Exhibit 233.
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Are you finished with the witness?
3 MR. KAY: No, your Honour. I was just waiting to see if there were
4 any more questions, thank you.
5 [To the witness]: The next item I would like to move
6 to is the book that was the subject of some contention this
7 morning, your Honour, and I do not know Mr. Tieger's position
8 now in relation to that document.
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger?
10 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour, the same position we expressed with
11 respect to the documents just admitted.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No objections?
13 MR. TIEGER: Yes.
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. They will be admitted.
15 MR. KAY: Could you look at this document please, Mr. Brdar, which
16 will be marked 66A, D66A? (Handed) If you could show it to
17 Mr. Tieger before you show it to the witness? Thank you.
18 Mr. Brdar, perhaps if you could just read out what is on the
19 front page of this document that I have just put before you?
20 A. Here?
21 Q. Yes, that is right.
22 A. This is the book of duty of 1st June 1992, public security
23 station, police station, Prijedor.
24 Q. Is that 1992 or 1991, if you look carefully at the date on the
26 A. It really is not clear. It may look like '91 but I think it
27 was '92. I really cannot see. It does look more like "1" than
28 "2". I do not know. Would you like to see it and .....
1 Q. It will be become clear as we go through the document as to when
2 it starts. If you could just look at this document, Mr. Brdar,
3 and perhaps go to the middle of it to the date of 27th June
4 1992? Copies are going to be supplied to the Bench in a
5 moment. I am just getting it identified.
6 A. Yes, I have found it.
7 Q. Yes. Does that record, in fact, on that page in Cyrillic your
8 name ----
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. --- as well as that of Dusko Tadic?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And Miroslav Cvijic?
13 A. Yes, true, yes.
14 Q. Does it refer to Orlovci?
15 A. It does, 1500 to 2100.
16 Q. On the bottom right-hand corner of that page do you recognise
17 the signature there of the Commander?
18 A. Yes, of course I do. Here it says "Prpos, Djuro".
19 Q. Yes. Are you familiar with this book that has, in fact, other
20 information taken out of its pages, but just left here details
21 concerning Orlovci and the shift that you were on?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you. Your Honour, there are copies for the Court here.
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, the book, 66A, are these pages from
25 the book -- no, I gather not. This is then from 1992?
26 MR. KAY: Yes.
27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Will we be able to determine whether this was
28 the book that he has?
1 MR. KAY: Yes. Your Honour, I have taken this course so that I am
2 sure the witness is familiar with it before I present it to you
3 and you will be made clear as to the date of its origination.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I thought that the witness had testified that
5 he was on the same shift with Mr. Miroslav and Mr. Tadic, and so
6 I was looking for his name on these sheets.
7 MR. KAY: No.
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What you tell me is I will find them in that
10 MR. KAY: That is right, your Honour, yes. Three copies there for
11 the Bench which is 66A ----
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to 66A and 66B -- you
13 have already said the same position, Mr. Tieger, is that
15 MR. TIEGER: That is correct, your Honour.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK 66A and 66B will be admitted.
17 MR. KAY: There are three copies under 66B of translation, not of
18 every page, your Honour, and we do not have photocopied here
19 every page in the book (which the Court will see, in fact,
20 starts in 1991) but only certain selected pages.
21 [To the witness]: You have already described to us
22 the front page of the book which is headed, is it "Official Duty
23 Plan" or "Official Duty Book"?
24 A. Yes, sure it is, it is that green book, as far as I can
26 Q. Can we just turn to the second page? There is writing on the
27 top of that page in Cyrillic as well as Latin script. Can you
28 just read out what it says?
1 A. The second sheet?
2 Q. No, go back to the beginning. Just go back to the front page,
3 please, Mr. Brdar, that page there. Can you read out what it
4 says at the top of that page?
5 A. "Duty", "Duty service" -- the same thing in Cyrillic and Latin
7 Q. We see two stamps, in fact, on that page, is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you recognise those as the stamps of the Prijedor police
11 A. Yes, of course I do.
12 Q. Thank you. If we now turn to the next page? Do you, in fact,
13 see a date at the top of that page?
14 A. I do.
15 Q. What date is that?
16 A. 1st June '91, Saturday.
17 Q. 1991. There are a list of names on that page, are there, and
18 various notes, is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. For the benefit of the Court, these three pages have been
21 translated. If we turn now to the next page, which will be page
22 4, is that the page for 18th August 1991?
23 A. Turn to 38, that is wrong, is it?
24 Q. No, if you could go back to the fourth page of the document
25 which should be headed "18th August '91".
26 A. 18th August, yes, all right.
27 Q. Can you just read out what it says on the top line there where
28 that date is?
1 A. It is not clear.
2 Q. Does it say: "Official Duty Plan for 18th August 1991" on the
3 top line?
4 A. Yes, the title, the title is clear, "Official Duty Plan for
5 18th '91" -- I thought the other thing.
6 Q. No. Thank you. That page has been translated as well, your
7 Honours. If we turn now to the next page which has not been
8 translated, can you just read out the top line on that page?
9 A. "Official Duty Plan for Friday, 30th August '91".
10 Q. Let us turn over the next page which has been translated, your
11 Honours. Does that say: "Official Duty Plan for 14th June
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Does it ----
15 A. Monday.
16 Q. --- contain next to point 668 "point Orlovci"?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. From 07 to 15?
19 A. So it does.
20 Q. Are there names there which have been crossed out?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Against 673, "point Orlovci", does it show 15 to 21?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Then does it contain some names which include "Cvijic, Miroslav"
25 and then someone beginning with "B Miroslav"?
26 A. It does, yes.
27 Q. On 14th June would that have been you perhaps with your name
28 crossed out by someone at the police station there at the
1 checkpoint Orlovci from 1500 to 2100?
2 A. Yes, that is my name.
3 Q. 678, we see "point Orlovci" again and we see 21 to 07, is that
5 A. It is.
6 Q. Again a list of names with parts of those names crossed out, is
7 that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Would this indicate the shift pattern for that day of checkpoint
10 Orlovci from 7 o'clock in the morning of 14th June to the end of
11 the shift of 7 o'clock on 15th June?
12 A. Yes, that was the shift on duty.
13 Q. In the bottom right-hand corner, do you recognise partly
14 obliterated the signature of Djuro Prpos?
15 A. Yes, one can see "Prpos" clearly and "Djuro" only half of it,
16 but it is clear.
17 Q. If we turn over to the next page which has also been translated,
18 your Honours, is that headed: "The Official Duty Plan for 15th
19 June 1992, Monday"?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Is there checkpoint Orlovci from 7 to 15?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Then with names crossed out?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Against 689 is there "point Orlovci 15 to 21"?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. But with two names left complete, and could you read out those
1 A. No. 1, Miroslav Brdar; No. 2, Miroslav Cvijic.
2 Q. Is the third person who was in that unit on that day his name
3 crossed out?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Against 694 do we see checkpoint Orlovci 2100 to 7?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And again with the names crossed out?
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 Q. At the bottom right hand corner do we see the signature of
10 "Prpos Djuro"?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. If we can turn to the next page which is headed "16th June
13 1992". This has been translated, your Honours. Is that
14 headed: "The Official Duty Plan for 16th June 1992, Tuesday"?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Against 700 could you read out what is written against that
18 A. "Checkpoint Orlovci, working hours 7 to 15, Dusko Tadic,
19 Miroslav Brdar, Miroslav Cvijic". That was the shift. Signed:
20 "Station Commander, Djuro Prpos" -- visible.
21 Q. Thank you. Let us turn now to the next page, 17th June, and if
22 you could read out what is recorded against 716?
23 A. "Orlovci checkpoint, working hours 7 to 1500, Dusko Tadic
24 Miroslav Brdar, Miroslav Cvijic, Station Commander, Djuro
26 Q. Let us turn to the next page for 18th June, is that headed as
28 A. Yes, "Official Duty Plan, 18th September '92, Thursday. 472
1 Orlovci checkpoint, 2200 to 7 o'clock in the morning, Dusko
2 Tadic, Miroslav Brdar, Miroslav Cvijic. Station Commander,
3 Djuro Prpos".
4 Q. Is it, in fact, 18th June rather than 18th September?
5 A. 18th June '92.
6 Q. Let us turn to the next page which has also been translated,
7 your Honour, as a Cyrillic version.
8 JUDGE VOHRAH: It should be 2100 instead of 2200.
9 MR. KAY: I am much obliged, your Honour.
10 If we turn to 19th June which is in Cyrillic, could
11 you read out that page again?
12 A. Yes. The whole?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. "Official Duty for 19th June 1992", then "Friday" in brackets,
15 "758 Orlovci checkpoint, from 2100 to 7 o'clock in the morning,
16 Dusko Tadic, Miroslav Brdar, Miroslav Cvijic, Station Commander,
17 Djuro Prpos".
18 Q. We have seen the script in this book move from Latin script to
19 Cyrillic script. Is there any reason for that or any
20 explanation that you can assist the Court by giving?
21 A. The Cyrillic script is the official script in Serbia. We
22 accepted it and we had to start to write in Cyrillic. But, in
23 the beginning people were against it, but now our official
24 script is Cyrillic.
25 Q. Thank you. Let us turn to the next page, 20th June. Is that
26 headed: "Official Duty Plan for 20th June 1992", and "769
27 checkpoint Orlovci, 15 to 21"?
28 A. 69, yes.
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. "15 to 21 hours, Dusko Tadic, Miroslav Brdar and Miroslav
3 Cvijic, Station Commander, Djuro Prpos".
4 Q. Can you turn to the next page which is headed 21st June 1992?
5 Is that headed ----
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. --- again "Official Duty Plan for 21st June 1992"?
8 A. Yes, that was Sunday, it says Sunday, 21st June.
9 Q. Thank you. Can you read out what is against 785?
10 A. 755.
11 Q. 755?
12 A. Or 85 -- 785.
13 Q. 785, I think, if you look at the top of the page it is 776?
14 A. It is not very clear, not very easily legible. 785, I think.
15 "Orlovci checkpoint, 15 to 21 hours, Dusko Tadic, Miroslav
16 Brdar, Miroslav Cvijic, Station Commander, Djuro Prpos".
17 Q. If we move to 22nd June 1992, is that headed: "Official Duty
18 Plan" for that date?
19 A. Yes. "796, checkpoint Orlovci, 7 to 15, Miroslav Tadic" --
20 "Dusko Tadic, Miroslav Brdar, Miroslav Cvijic, Station
21 Commander, Djuro Prpos".
22 Q. If we turn now to 23d June 1992, is that headed: "Official Duty
23 Plan" for that date?
24 A. Yes, "812, checkpoint Orlovci, 7 to 15, Miroslav Brdar, Miroslav
25 Cvijic and Dusko Tadic, Station Commander, Djuro Prpos".
26 Q. If we move to 24th June 1992, is that headed: "Official Duty
27 Plan" for that date?
28 A. Yes, yes, that is Wednesday, "839, checkpoint Orlovci 21 to 7,
1 Miroslav Brdar, Dusko Tadic, Miroslav Cvijic, Station Commander,
2 Djuro Prpos".
3 Q. If we turn to 25th June 1992, is that headed: "Official Duty
4 Plan" for that date?
5 A. Yes. It says: "Checkpoint Orlovci, 21 to 7, Miroslav Brdar,
6 Miroslav Cvijic and Dusko Tadic, Station Commander, Djuro
8 Q. 26th June 199 ----
9 JUDGE STEPHEN: Could I interrupt for a moment?
10 MR. KAY: Yes.
11 JUDGE STEPHEN: The script is quite different on the 24th as compared
12 with the 25th, if you look at Tadic's name. Is that because
13 Cyrillic has in one case capitals and the other case a flowing
15 MR. KAY: I will ask the witness, your Honour.
16 Could you turn back to that page for 24th June,
17 please, Mr. Brdar?
18 A. I have it.
19 Q. That is in Cyrillic on that page, is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. If we turn to the next page, 25th June 1992 ----
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. --- that is also in Cyrillic script, is that right?
24 A. Yes, yes, but one was the written, flowing written script. On
25 24th we have block capitals, but it is the Cyrillic alphabet.
26 Q. Thank you. If we turn now to 26th June 1992 ----
27 A. Yes I have it.
28 Q. --- is that headed: "Official Duty Plan" for that date?
1 A. Yes, yes. "Orlovci point, 15 to 21 hours, Miroslav Brdar,
2 Miroslav Cvijic, Dusko Tadic, Station Commander, Djuro Prpos".
3 Q. If we turn to 27th June 1992, is that headed: "Official Duty
4 Plan" for that date?
5 A. Yes. "882, Orlovci checkpoint, 15 to 21, Miroslav Brdar,
6 Miroslav Cvijic and Dusko Tadic, Station Commander, Djuro
8 Q. If we turn to 28th June 1992, is that headed: "Official Duty
9 Plan" for that date?
10 A. "Orlovci point" again, "7 to 15, Miroslav Brdar, Miroslav
11 Cvijic, Dusko Tadic, Station Commander, Djuro Prpos".
12 Q. The next page, 29th June 1992, "Official Duty Plan"?
13 A. Yes, 29th, Monday.
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. "999, Orlovci checkpoint, 7 to 15, Miroslav Brdar, Miroslav
16 Cvijic, Dusko Tadic, Station Commander, Djuro Prpos".
17 Q. 30th June 1992 of the Official Duty Plan?
18 A. Yes. "Orlovci checkpoint, 21 to 07, Miroslav Brdar, Miroslav
19 Cvijic, Dusko Tadic, Station Commander, Djuro Prpos".
20 Q. 1st July 1992 of the Official Duty Plan?
21 A. Yes, the same, Wednesday. "Orlovci checkpoint, 21 to 07,
22 Miroslav Brdar, Miroslav Cvijic, Dusko Tadic, Station Commander,
23 Djuro Prpos".
24 Q. 2nd July 1992 of the Official Duty Plan?
25 A. "Orlovci checkpoint, 15 to 2100, Miroslav Brdar, Miroslav
26 Cvijic, Dusko Tadic, Station Commander, Djuro Prpos".
27 Q. 3rd July 1992 of the Official Duty Plan?
28 A. Friday, "Orlovci checkpoint, 15 to 21 hours, Miroslav Brdar,
1 Miroslav Cvijic, Dusko Tadic, Station Commander, Djuro Prpos".
2 Q. 4th July 1992 of the Official Duty Plan?
3 A. "Orlovci checkpoint, 7 to 1500, Miroslav Brdar, Miroslav Cvijic,
4 Dusko Tadic, Station Commander, Prpos".
5 Q. 5th July 1992 of the Official Duty Plan?
6 A. "Orlovci checkpoint, 7 to 1500", we have "201", I do not know
7 what that means, "Miroslav Brdar, Miroslav Cvijic, Dusko Tadic,
8 Station Commander, Prpos".
9 Q. 6th July 1992 of the Official Duty Plan?
10 A. 6th July, "Orlovci checkpoint, 2100 to 07, Miroslav Brdar,
11 Miroslav Cvijic, Dusko Tadic, Station Commander, Djuro Prpos".
12 Q. 7th July 1992 of the Official Duty Plan?
13 A. "Orlovci checkpoint, 3, Miroslav Brdar, Miroslav Cvijic, Dusko
14 Tadic, Station Commander, Djuro Prpos".
15 Q. What does "slobodni" mean there on 7th July?
16 A. This means --- I cannot remember exactly the date -- I think
17 this was the time when we were changing the hours, or we were
18 changing the shift. We wanted to change from shorter shifts to
19 longer shifts. It was easier for us and that, I think, reflects
20 that. So we had one day free in the meantime. Then we actually
21 skipped a shift and then took the next shift which came along.
22 This was too much. We were moving back and forth from shift to
23 work and back to home. It was too much.
24 Q. Let us turn to 8th July 1992 then for the Official Duty Plan and
25 tell us what is recorded there against 1074?
26 A. It says: "Checkpoint Orlovci, 7 to 19, Miroslav Brdar, Miroslav
27 Cvijic, Dusko Tadic", that is the shift, "Station Commander,
28 Djuro Prpos".
1 Q. That is a 12-hour shift then on that day, is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Let us turn to 9th July 1992 of the Official Duty Plan?
4 A. "Orlovci checkpoint, 1900 to 07, Miroslav Brdar, Miroslav
5 Cvijic, Dusko Tadic, Station commander, Djuro Prpos".
6 Q. 10th July 1992 of the Official Duty Plan?
7 A. It says: "Free, Miroslav Brdar, Miroslav Cvijic and Dusko
8 Tadic, Station Commander, Djuro Prpos". I think it is the same
9 thing. Again something was changed and the shift was skipped.
10 Q. On 11th July 1992 of the Official Duty Plan?
11 A. The checkpoint 700 to 1900, the three, Cvijic, Brdar and Tadic
12 and the Station Commander signed, Prpos".
13 Q. 12th July 1992 of the Official Duty Plan?
14 A. "Orlovci checkpoint, 1900 to 07, Miroslav Brdar, Miroslav
15 Cvijic, Dusko Tadic, Station Commander, Djuro Prpos".
16 Q. 13th July 1992?
17 A. Here there are three letters here -- probably means free.
18 Miroslav Brdar, Miroslav Cvijic, Dusko Tadic and signed, Djuro
19 Prpos, Station Commander.
20 Q. In fact, it does not indicate that you were at checkpoint
21 Orlovci on that day, is that right?
22 A. Probably not.
23 Q. 14th July 1992, the Official Duty Plan?
24 A. "Orlovci checkpoint, 7 to 1900, Miroslav Brdar, Miroslav Cvijic,
25 Dusko Tadic, Station Commander, Djuro Prpos".
26 Q. 15th July 1992 of the Official Duty Plan?
27 A. "Orlovci checkpoint from 2000 to 08, Miroslav Brdar, Miroslav
28 Cvijic, Dusko Tadic, Station Commander, Djuro Prpos". Again the
1 times are changed; probably we had a free shift.
2 Q. 16th July 1992?
3 A. The same, "Free, Miroslav Brdar, Miroslav Cvijic, Dusko Tadic",
4 this was the time when we had the shift from 20 to 8, so we had
5 a shift of two of 12 hours and 24 hours rest.
6 Q. 17th July of the Official Duty Plan?
7 A. "Orlovci checkpoint, 7 to 1900", I think that is -- "Miroslav
8 Brdar, Miroslav Cvijic, Dusko Tadic, Station Commander, Djuro
10 Q. You were going to make some comment about the time there? You
11 said "I think" something. What were you going to say about
13 A. We changed the working hours to 12 hours. We had free shifts.
14 We were free for 24 hours. We had more time to rest, and that
15 was my comment.
16 Q. Thank you. 18th July 1992?
17 A. 18th July, "Orlovci checkpoint 19 to 07, Miroslav Brdar,
18 Miroslav Cvijic, Dusko Tadic, Station Commander, Djuro Prpos".
19 Q. 19th July 1992 with a ----
20 A. Now again we have rest.
21 Q. Yes?
22 A. Miroslav Brdar, Miroslav Cvijic, Dusko Tadic, and signed "Djuro
23 Prpos" as Station Commander.
24 Q. 20th July 1992?
25 A. "Orlovci checkpoint, 7 to 1900, Miroslav Cvijic, Miroslav Brdar,
26 Dusko Tadic, Station Commander, Djuro Prpos".
27 Q. 21st July 1992?
28 A. "Orlovci checkpoint, 1900 to 07, Miroslav Brdar, Miroslav
1 Cvijic, Dusko Tadic".
2 Q. 22nd July 1992?
3 A. Again a free day for Miroslav Brdar, Miroslav Cvijic and Dusko
4 Tadic, signed "Station Commander".
5 Q. 23rd July 1992?
6 A. "Orlovci checkpoint, 7 to 1900, Miroslav Brdar, Miroslav Cvijic,
7 Dusko Tadic, Station Commander, Djuro Prpos".
8 Q. 24th July 1992?
9 A. "Orlovci checkpoint, 1900 to 07 hours, Miroslav Brdar, Miroslav
10 Cvijic, Dusko Tadic, Station Commander, Djuro Prpos".
11 Q. 25th July 1992?
12 A. Probably a free day for Miroslav Brdar, Miroslav Cvijic, Dusko
13 Tadic, signed "Djuro Prpos", Station Commander.
14 Q. 26th July 1992?
15 A. "Orlovci checkpoint, 7 to 1900, Miroslav Brdar, Miroslav Cvijic,
16 Dusko Tadic, Station Commander, Djuro Prpos".
17 Q. 27th July 1992?
18 A. "Orlovci checkpoint, 1900 to 07 hours, Miroslav Brdar, Miroslav
19 Cvijic, Dusko Tadic, Station Commander, Djuro Prpos".
20 Q. 28th July 1992?
21 A. On 28th July we were free, "Free, Miroslav Cvijic, Miroslav
22 Brdar, Dusko Tadic", signed "Station Commander, Djuro Prpos".
23 Q. 29th July 1992?
24 A. "Orlovci checkpoint, 7 to 1900, Miroslav Brdar, Miroslav Cvijic
25 and Dusko Tadic, Station Commander, Djuro Prpos".
26 Q. 30th July 1992?
27 A. "Orlovci checkpoint, 1900 to 07 hours, Miroslav Brdar, Miroslav
28 Cvijic and Dusko Tadic, Station Commander, Djuro Prpos".
1 Q. 31st July 1992?
2 A. We can see very clearly we were free on that day, Brda, Cvijic
3 and Tadic.
4 Q. Signed "Djuro Prpos"?
5 A. Signed "Djuro Prpos".
6 Q. 1st August 1992?
7 A. 1st August, "Orlovci checkpoint, 7 to 1900, Miroslav Brdar,
8 Miroslav Cvijic, Dusko Tadic, Djuro Prpos, Station Commander",
10 Q. If we look at 2nd August 1992 ----
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. --- your name is not on this page, is that right?
13 A. I was free, Dusko Tadic was free. My name does not figure
14 there. I do not know why.
15 Q. Thank you. If we just go to 3rd August 1992, would it be right
16 to say we do not see any of the three names, Cvijic, Brdar or
17 Tadic on that page?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Indeed, 4th August, again on the 12-hour shifts from 7.00 in the
20 morning to 19 in the evening and 19 in the evening until 7.00 in
21 the morning of the next day we do not see the three names of
22 Cvijic, Tadic and Brdar, is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you. If you could just tell us what it is on the last
25 page -- is that Official Duty Plan for 31st December 1992?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Again signed "Djuro Prpos"?
28 A. Yes, "Djuro Prpos".
1 Q. As far as you know, did Djuro Prpos keep accurate records as the
2 Commander of the traffic police of Prijedor police station?
3 A. I think that he was fairly conscientious. He had been doing
4 this job for years, and he is still now doing it and if he was
5 not so conscientious he would not be on that job any more.
6 MR. KAY: Your Honour, that is all I ask. Wait there, please.
7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, cross-examination?
8 Cross-Examined by MR. TIEGER
9 Q. Thank you, your Honour. Mr. Brdar, a couple of preliminary
10 questions: first, what is your date of birth?
11 A. The date you mean, the exact date?
12 Q. Yes?
13 A. On 24th December 1958.
14 Q. What is your father's name?
15 A. Mile.
16 Q. Mr. Brdar, I believe you mentioned that the Orlovci checkpoint
17 was approximately six kilometres away from the police station in
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How far away was the checkpoint from Kozarac?
21 A. I would have to reckon it. Prijedor to Kozarac is some 12
22 kilometres, so from checkpoint Orlovci it would be some five to
23 six kilometres. I know the Orlovci checkpoint from the station,
24 police station, because I had to record this and I had to report
25 it. For Kozarac, I would not know, but I know it is some 10 to
26 11 kilometres from Prijedor.
27 Q. How far was the Orlovci checkpoint from Omarska?
28 A. I again would not know. I would not know. I know to Banja
1 Luka; to Banja Luka it is 55 kilometres. To Omarska, I cannot
2 tell you.
3 Q. How far was the checkpoint from Keraterm?
4 A. Maybe three to four kilometres, no more.
5 Q. Was the Orlovci checkpoint near any landmark on the
6 Prijedor/Banja Luka highway or near any particular intersection?
7 A. It was. There is an intersection there but it is not a very
8 important intersection. That is only where two local roads
9 meet. We call them "village" roads. So it is not a major
10 junction by any means.
11 Q. You mentioned just a moment ago that you recorded the gas usage
12 on some kind of a form. Was that done on a regular basis, a
13 daily basis?
14 A. Yes, I had to record the mileage, and they could calculate the
15 gas consumption on the basis of that. So I only recorded the
16 mileage driven by the vehicle every day.
17 Q. Was that something you did personally?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. That was done on some kind of a standard form?
20 A. Yes, yes. That was done it was what we called the official trip
21 form, official business form. You would have to write your
22 name, the registration plates of the car, the date and the
23 mileage on that date.
24 Q. Did you keep that document or was that kept in the police
26 A. It was in the car, in the -- and so we would fill a heap of
27 blankets -- of blank forms and then when we filled them out we
28 would get new ones.
1 Q. The others were retained by the officials at the police station,
2 the used forms?
3 A. Do you mean the blanks?
4 Q. Yes, the form?
5 A. No, no -- yes, but those that were filled out they were kept in
6 the station.
7 Q. That is not one of the forms we have seen here today and which
8 you have discussed here today?
9 A. No, today we were looking at the log, the official duty log.
10 Q. I believe you also indicated that there was a roster posted on
11 the wall of the police station so that you and others could know
12 in advance or on the day of your particular service where you
13 were to go?
14 A. Yes, this was a room in front of Djuro Prpos's office. This was
15 empty and there were some shelves there and some furniture.
16 There were -- papers were kept there and on the wall there was
17 this schedule. We could come and read the names and we could
18 see our schedule. But, actually the schedules were fairly
19 regular and we knew more or less when we were on duty. So this
20 was not very important for us to read.
21 Q. So it was there if you needed it, but you might not refer to it
22 for some days at a time?
23 A. In case we forgot, of course, then we would have to go and
24 consult it.
25 Q. That roster or form contained the names of the police officers,
26 their duty stations, the time and date of their service?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. That was also not one of the forms that we saw today and which
1 you discussed today?
2 A. No, no.
3 Q. Are you familiar with any document or form known as a patrol
5 A. No.
6 Q. Was there any document or a form which you or other police
7 officers were required to complete after your tour of duty on a
8 particular day to indicate what you had done and where you had
10 A. I do not know. There was a book where you could briefly
11 describe, first of all, to record your presence, that you were
12 on the shift, and you could very briefly indicate what happened
13 on that day.
14 Q. Was the recording in that book done for purposes of indicating
15 all activities during the shift or unusual activities?
16 A. Well, what was unusual, I think we would record that.
17 Q. Would you periodically make notations in that book?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I presume you would record the nature of the event, the place,
20 the date and time on which it occurred?
21 A. No, not -- whatever happened, happened on the checkpoint. The
22 date was clear because we recorded the date before the report.
23 This was nothing official. This was simply a reminder and this
24 was always there on the checkpoint. At the checkpoint we had
25 this book.
26 Q. So the book was kept at the checkpoint?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. I presume if you recorded an event, however, you would also
1 indicate the date on which it occurred in case you had to refer
2 back to that event?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Presumably, any accurate description of the event would include
5 the time on which it occurred, in case future reference was
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. That book was also not one of the documents which we reviewed
9 today, is that correct?
10 A. No.
11 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I am about to move on to something new.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.
13 (4.00 p.m.)
14 (The Court adjourned for a short time)
15 (4.20 p.m.)
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Let me ask a question. Mr. Kay, I had asked
17 you earlier whether Defence 63 -- well, these sheets here --
18 what is it, 63, 64 and 65 ----
19 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour.
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: --- were sheets of this which is, is it 66?
21 MR. KAY: Yes.
22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You said "yes". Maybe I misunderstood you.
23 MR. KAY: No, there are separate books, your Honour.
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Separate books?
25 MR. KAY: Yes.
26 JUDGE STEPHEN: Mr. Kay, while we are talking about that, I would
27 think that you have probably made a comparison to see if the
28 sheets coincide with the book?
1 MR. KAY: Yes.
2 JUDGE STEPHEN: Is that so and do they?
3 MR. KAY: They do. May I just make this observation? The 12-hour
4 shift towards the end of the book in the schedule is, I think,
5 20 to 800 hours and in the book it may be 19 to 700 hours. It
6 is still a 12-hour shift, but there are about five or six
7 occasions when it is put down as a different 12 hours. I cannot
8 remember it off the top of my head, but I have checked that but
9 otherwise it coincides by day basis.
10 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.
11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger?
12 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour.
13 MIROSLAV BRDAR, recalled.
14 Cross-examined by MR. TIEGER, continued.
15 Q. Mr. Brdar, I understand that when you would arrive for your
16 duties at the Prijedor police station you would obtain the keys
17 to the vehicle from either the shift Commander or the police
18 officers from the previous shift, is that right?
19 A. I would take the keys from the shift Commander because he would
20 bring the keys to the office, and my -- I was bound to come to
21 there to obtain the keys to report that my shift was there and
22 to take the keys.
23 Q. The various shift Commanders shared the same office?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. We are talking about the police station, is that the main police
26 station in Prijedor?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. There was not a separate police station for the traffic police
1 or the reserve police?
2 A. No, it is all in one building.
3 Q. After obtaining the keys to the vehicle, would you and the rest
4 of the people on your shift then proceed to the checkpoint
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you meet the military policemen there or did you travel with
9 A. Well, we went on our own and they had their own vehicle, and our
10 shifts did not coincide especially because we had to return in
11 that car to the police station and then change and they had a
12 different vehicle, so that all the shifts used one car.
13 Q. Then when you returned to the station you would bring the keys
14 back to the shift Commander's office and then leave?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you sometimes bring the keys back when the shift Commander
17 was not actually in the office?
18 A. No.
19 Q. There was no place to leave the keys in case he was momentarily
20 out of the office so that the next shift could pick it up?
21 A. No, one had to take the keys to his office, into his office, and
22 leave them on his table and he was always present there.
23 Q. When we are talking about the shift Commander, we are not
24 talking about Djuro Prpos, are we?
25 A. Djuro Prpos was the Commander of the traffic police. I did not
26 -- I considered myself the head of the shift because I drove
27 that car, and I did not really care about being called
28 "Commander" because we all did the same job and nobody tried to
1 single out himself really. Nobody addressed me as the
2 "Commander" and I did not behave as one. I was simply a
3 reserve policeman like my other two colleagues who also were
4 reserve policemen.
5 Q. Was there a police officer in charge -- first of all, let me
6 step back. Djuro Prpos was the Commander of the traffic police,
7 is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did he have any deputies who were in charge of shifts?
10 A. No, he did personally.
11 Q. So was he in charge 24 hours a day?
12 A. No, I do not know whether he was there 24 hours a day, but
13 I know that whenever I came there he was there. He probably
14 could work 24 hours a day or perhaps he could not, I would not
15 know, but whenever I came to the station he was there. One did
16 not think about working hours. The situation was such that one
17 worked as much as one could.
18 Q. There was no deputy or deputies to whom one could turn if Prpos
19 was not available at the moment?
20 A. I know that I communicated with him personally. Whether he had
21 a deputy or not, I would not know that. Perhaps active duty
22 policemen would know such a thing, but I simply was not aware of
24 Q. Other than returning the vehicle and the keys to the vehicle,
25 there was no particular purpose for you to remain in the police
26 station after your shift was concluded and you generally left
27 after you did so, is that right?
28 A. No, when I would turn over the keys, I would go home.
1 Q. Could I ask that the witness be presented again with documents
2 D63, 64 and 65? Those would be the A versions of those.
4 A. Which number?
5 Q. Looking for a moment at D64A. Do you know whether or not the
6 book from which this document was obtained was the exact
7 size of the paper at which you are looking now?
8 A. I think so, yes. It is a large format, I think we call it A4,
9 size A4. When you open it, that is that.
10 Q. As I understand it, you were familiar with one book in which the
11 times and dates of the shifts were recorded by Prpos, is that
13 A. Yes, that is the book.
14 Q. Is it your testimony that Prpos recorded the times and dates of
15 the shifts by the traffic policemen before or after those were
17 A. He would take note when we came, whether we were present and
18 then I would take the keys and leave, and I do not know what he
19 did after that. He used to be writing something, but whether it
20 was this book or somewhere else or something, I really was not
21 there to see what he was doing and what kind of books he kept
22 and what kind of records he had. He would know that.
23 I never stayed long in his office, only as long as it
24 was necessary to take over the duty and go, because we have very
25 little time. The checkpoint was unmanned when the shift
26 changed, so that I did not have much time to stay in the office
27 and linger there and see what he was doing and how he was doing
1 Q. So, in fact, with respect to this document you would not be in a
2 position to know who made the actual notations in it or when
3 they were made?
4 A. The notes here were made by Djuro Prpos, in this book. Whether
5 he did it also elsewhere in some other book, in something else,
6 I do not know.
7 Q. What does the front of this book look like?
8 A. The title, the cover page, well, it is of various colours like
9 camouflage uniform, green colours, that is what it looks like --
10 precisely as the book that we went through a moment ago.
11 Q. OK, is the book we went through a moment ago the cover of the
12 document in which D64A appears?
13 A. Similar, yes, and this book was quite like that, the same
15 Q. Looking at D64A, would you agree that the notations that appear,
16 for example, on the left side of the page, all appear to be made
17 in the same hand?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. It is also true that these notations cover all the shifts for
20 the dates in question, not just yours?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So if the person was recording them as the shifts were being
23 completed or begun, that person would need to be present 24
24 hours a day every day?
25 A. I know that he was present when we went in to take up the shift
26 and returned there, and it was not also difficult for him to
27 take his own car and come or he had his official car which he
28 used. So it was not difficult for him to come up to the
1 checkpoint site and check it.
2 Q. You indicated that, as a reserve traffic policeman, you were
3 issued an automatic rifle. You also stated that you had
4 obtained a pistol from someone who was a traffic policeman
5 before you. Was that person still on the force when you were
7 A. No.
8 Q. What ethnicity was that person?
9 A. You mean ethnic origin? I do not understand the question.
10 Q. What nationality was that person who had previously been in the
11 force and from whom you obtained the gun?
12 A. Serb.
13 Q. Did you also carry knives, you and the other reserve traffic
15 A. No, we did not need them.
16 Q. I think you indicated earlier, Mr. Brdar, that Djuro Prpos was
17 the traffic Commander before the war, during the war and after
18 the war.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. In fact, Djuro Prpos was only the Deputy Commander before the
21 takeover of Prijedor by the Serbs, is that not right?
22 A. I am not absolutely sure. That it is what I heard from the
23 colleagues, that he was the Commander, because when I was to
24 report to the traffic police, they told me: "Your Commander,
25 your superior, is Djuro Prpos" and I had not been there in the
26 police station to know what post he held exactly, but I know
27 that he was there before the war.
28 Q. You did not know that Fikret Kadiric was the traffic police
1 Commander before the takeover?
2 A. Before the takeover, I had nothing to do with the SUP, so
3 I could not know that.
4 Q. Did you know that Simo Drljaca was the head of the SUP when you
5 began your service as a traffic officer?
6 A. Yes, I was already on the reserve police.
7 Q. Did you know that he had become the head of the SUP only after
8 the takeover by Serbian authorities?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. It is correct to say that Djuro Prpos was your boss, the person
11 from whom you took orders, and Simo Drljaca was his boss?
12 A. Djuro Prpos was indubitably my boss, but who did he receive
13 orders from, I do not know.
14 Q. You did not know that Simo Drljaca was superior to Djuro Prpos?
15 A. I knew that Simo Drljaca had been appointed head of the SUP, but
16 which were his duties and obligations, I did not know and I was
17 not interested.
18 Q. The police at Prijedor had a variety of responsibilities during
19 the conflict and after the takeover. You were aware that the
20 Muslim and Croat community of opstina Prijedor was largely
21 cleansed and many taken to camps, is that right?
22 A. I would not know anything specific about it even though I have
23 heard something about it.
24 Q. You were aware that before the war approximately 50,000 Muslims
25 lived in opstina Prijedor?
26 A. I knew there were quite a number of them there. How many
27 exactly, I was never interested to learn, so I would not know
1 Q. You are also aware that within a short time after the war there
2 were very few Muslims left in opstina Prijedor?
3 A. Well, a certain number remained, how many, I do not know. They
4 are there to this day.
5 Q. But you were aware that the vast majority of Muslims in opstina
6 Prijedor were no longer there after the war?
7 A. Well, I did know they were not there.
8 Q. Were you familiar with the area of Kozarac?
9 A. I was born and live in Prijedor and I know Kozarac, not well,
10 but more or less. I never went there very often. I had no need
12 Q. You knew that many thousands of Muslims lived in Kozarac before
13 the war?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You knew it was a predominantly Muslim area?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You know that there are very few Muslims left in that area?
18 A. I know about the Prijedor area. I do not know about Kozarac --
19 no, I mean the town itself.
20 Q. Did you know that many Muslims and Croats were taken to camps at
21 Keraterm, Omarska and Trnopolje?
22 A. I have only heard about it from my colleagues. To begin with,
23 they were not all camps, but if you care to call them that, let
24 it be, but how many, how much, I do not know.
25 Q. Was Keraterm a camp?
26 A. I do not know if it was a camp. I know they said it was a
27 collection centre.
28 Q. What about Omarska, did you know it was a camp?
1 A. I have never been to Omarska and I do not know anything about
2 it, how it was and what it was. I did pass sometimes by
3 Keraterm so I could see something, but Omarska I know nothing.
4 Q. You knew that the police and the civilian authorities were
5 responsible for Keraterm, Omarska and Trnopolje, did you not?
6 A. It was not under my jurisdiction and I never meddled in things
7 which were of no interest to me.
8 Q. You knew that Muslims and Croats were being beaten and killed in
9 those places, did you not?
10 A. I was not present and I cannot say anything.
11 Q. Djuro Prpos is still the Commander of the reserve police?
12 A. As far as I know, even if I have no access to SUP to check such
13 a thing, but I think he is still there at the same post.
14 Q. Simo Drljaca is still the head of the SUP?
15 A. I do not know that.
16 Q. While you were on duty at the checkpoint, did you and your
17 fellow traffic offices have the powers of arrest?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did the military policemen with you have the powers of arrest?
20 A. Military police had their duties and obligations and we had no
21 right to interfere or meddle with them.
22 Q. You served some shifts of duty late at night between the hours
23 of, for example, 9 o'clock and 7 o'clock, is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Was there a vehicle, a van, parked at the checkpoint in addition
26 to the police vehicle?
27 A. No.
28 Q. Was there some place where you or the others could catch a
1 little sleep during those late night hours?
2 A. We never slept at night for our own personal safety sake.
3 Q. So there was no vehicle or van, caravan, available for the
4 purpose of getting some sleep at night while others remained on
6 A. We only had our official car which we used when we needed to.
7 Q. It is your testimony that neither you or any of the others ever
8 took a nap or caught some sleep during your shifts?
9 A. No, my shift, no. As for the military policemen, I do not
10 know. They were no concern of mine.
11 Q. So you never noticed whether or not the military policemen, for
12 example, took the opportunity to get some sleep late at night?
13 A. How can you notice something in this pitch darkness? There was
14 no electricity in Prijedor and surroundings. I mean, you could
15 not see anything.
16 Q. You also indicated that your supervisors wanted to be able to be
17 in contact with you when you were not technically on duty. Was
18 that in case someone from another shift became ill?
19 A. I would not know the reason, even though we were told that we
20 had to stay at home and we had to leave our telephone numbers at
21 the stations, so that they could call us if need be. But we
22 never enquired about reasons in view of the situation as a
23 whole. We simply accepted it.
24 Q. So it could be for a variety of reasons -- in case someone else
25 became ill or in case you were needed at another post?
26 A. Yes.
27 MR. TIEGER: If I could have just a moment, your Honour?
28 MR. TIEGER: That is all I have. Thank you.
1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
2 MR. KAY: Nothing arises, thank you, your Honour.
3 Examined by the Court.
4 JUDGE STEPHEN: Witness, I had one or two questions. The first one
5 is, is it a fact that, as far as you know, shifts which began
6 and ended, in effect, at the police station did so up to
7 midnight and then no beginning or end of a shift until 7.00 in
8 the morning, is that right, or were there some shifts that ended
9 in the middle of the night?
10 A. Our shifts ended precisely at the time indicated.
11 Q. Well, that is what I am asking you. Did any of them end after
12 midnight or before 7.00 in the morning? Just a quick look it
13 seems to me they did not, but I just wanted to know if that was
15 A. No, no. No. No, they never ended at midnight or begin before
16 7 o'clock.
17 Q. They did not end after midnight or begin before 7.00, is that
18 what you are saying?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. Then I think you said that Keraterm was three to
21 four kilometres away from the checkpoint which was five to six
22 kilometres away from Prijedor. I had thought that Keraterm was
23 within a suburb of Prijedor. Am I wrong about that? I thought
24 that this distance, in other words, to Prijedor would be about
25 the same as the distance to Keraterm?
26 A. I would not know exactly. I am guessing. Keraterm is closer to
27 Prijedor than the Orlovci checkpoint. It is right next to the
28 Orlovci Road. I never measured it so I cannot give you the
1 exact distance. All the distances that I have mentioned I have
2 been reckoning from the public security station. It was my
3 estimates. As the checkpoint was exactly six kilometres away
4 and I know because of the mileage which we had to keep a record
5 of, that is how I judged it, but Keraterm is to the left as you
6 go to Orlovci.
7 Q. The last thing I wanted to ask you about was where is this
8 checkpoint that you speak of? Would you have a look at Exhibit
9 280. (Handed). Put it on the monitor. You will have to adjust
10 the monitor so it shows it all. Move the map down a bit.
11 A. Right. Could you move it to the right a little bit.
12 Q. You see there Gornji Orlovci?
13 A. Yes, I do. I do. It says Gornji Orlovci.
14 Q. You spoke I think of two country roads which intersected and
15 that was the checkpoint. Can you show us where they were?
16 A. I cannot really find my way about this map, but I will try. It
17 is difficult for me which one of these lines indicates that
18 road. I know when I reach the checkpoint then one of these
19 roads goes to the left and another one is to the right, and it
20 is an intersection right at the checkpoint. You want me to show
21 it here?
22 Q. Yes. Perhaps you might have a look at the ----
23 A. I mean, if this is the road here, if these lines mean roads,
24 then it should be here. It is difficult for me on the map to
25 show it to you.
26 Q. Witness, why do you not take the map in front of you, do not
27 look at the screen, look at the map, and see, opening it up
28 because it is folded at the moment, if you can locate the
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Now you need to put it back on the monitor and
3 keep your finger if you can or remember where you had it.
4 A. [The witness indicated].
5 JUDGE STEPHEN: What you were pointing at was the position of the
7 A. Yes, as far as I could orient myself. On the spot it would be
8 much easier, but I did my best.
9 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Just for the record because I do not have that
11 map, is it right above Kalate? Would you point to it again,
13 A. Yes, above Kalate, Kalate and then just above that thereabouts
14 was our checkpoint. There was the petrol station, Kalate and
15 then the checkpoint. There was a cafe called Galeb and there
16 was another cafe there. That was before Kozarusa, before
17 Kozarusa, there is a bridge there, a small bridge.
18 Q. Right where that main road is that is in yellow, I guess, at the
19 intersection of that main road and the road that would go north
20 from Kalate? Is that correct, sir?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What is that main road?
23 A. The Prijedor/Banja Luka main road.
24 Q. Could you point it out one more time, sir?
25 A. [The witness indicated].
26 Q. So it would be at the intersection of those two roads that are
27 right south of the Banja Luka road?
28 A. They are very small. They are very small, insignificant roads,
1 but they do meet at that point.
2 JUDGE STEPHEN: Witness, it has been suggested that I might ask you
3 to make a mark on that map that I have given you where you
4 believe the intersection was. Can you take a pencil or a
5 pen ----
6 A. On the map itself?
7 Q. Yes. Thank you. Now I am going to be the only person who ----
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you want to make a copy of it and make it a
9 Court exhibit?
10 JUDGE STEPHEN: No, I want to hang on to it, but perhaps it can be
11 copied on to the exhibit.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
13 MR. KAY: Yes, just on the last matter that we have been dealing
14 with, the position of checkpoint Orlovci.
15 Further Examined by MR. KAY.
16 Q. Is there a large tree at the site of this checkpoint?
17 A. Yes, there is an old linden tree.
18 Q. Are there roads going to the left and right at about the place
19 of the checkpoint where there are houses on either side of the
20 two lanes?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Were people living in those ----
23 A. Yes, there are several houses. On the left-hand side there are
24 more houses. On the right-hand side there were fewer houses,
25 but there are people there.
26 Q. At this time were there people also living there in those
28 A. Yes, there were.
1 MR. KAY: That is all I ask.
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger?
3 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour.
4 Further Cross-Examined by MR. TIEGER.
5 Q. Mr. Brdar, did you work with someone named Zoran Cvijic?
6 A. When, at what point?
7 Q. During the time you were working as a traffic policeman.
8 A. This was Miroslav Cvijic, not Zoran Cvijic. That is why I asked
9 at what time. Maybe I did at some other time.
10 Q. But you do not recall anyone named Zoran Cvijic working with the
12 A. No.
13 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
15 MR. KAY: Nothing arises, thank you, your Honour.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Just one question. What was the purpose of
17 this checkpoint?
18 A. The controlling of civilian traffic and passengers. This was
19 our job and that is what we did.
20 Q. What do you mean by "controlling", checking identity cards or
22 A. Well, we checked identity papers, the car documents because many
23 people stole vehicles at that time, and one of our duties was to
24 try to get such vehicles and to bring to the police stolen
25 vehicles, I mean, because that was the kind of situation in
26 which this was happening.
27 Q. When was the checkpoint established again? Was it in May?
28 A. I do not know exactly when it was established, but I came
1 there -- but the checkpoint was there probably even before
2 I came and it stayed on for a long time even after the
3 hostilities. When I arrived there the checkpoint was
5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
6 MR. KAY: No thank you, your Honour.
7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, anything further?
8 MR. TIEGER: No, your Honour.
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to this witness being
10 permanently excused?
11 MR. TIEGER: There is.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Brdar, you are to continue to make yourself
13 available to the Tribunal because you may be recalled as a
14 witness. You are free to leave now and return to your home, but
15 you may be recalled as a witness. You should keep in touch with
16 Mr. Kay and he will advise you of your availability, but if you
17 are asked to return you should return. Will you do that?
18 THE WITNESS: I will.
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you very much for coming. You are now
20 excused, sir.
21 (The witness withdrew).
22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is your next witness in closed session,
23 Mr. Kay?
24 MR. KAY: He was originally scheduled to be. Having been spoken to
25 him today he is willing to come into open session but with his
26 image scrambled on the monitor, and that has been communicated
27 to the technical booth.
28 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: How long will the technical booth need? Still
1 five minutes. We were just thinking in terms of the best use of
2 our time. Although we want to use every minute, if it takes
3 five minutes to make the arrangement then we will only have 10
4 minutes. So I suppose we will adjourn then until 10 o'clock
5 tomorrow. Then when we will be in open session but with face
7 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour. Thank you.
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. The Court is adjourned.
9 (5.10 p.m.)
10 (The court adjourned until the following day).