1 Tuesday, 8th October 1996
2 (Open Session)
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?
4 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour.
5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Are we going to proceed in closed session?
6 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, the balance of the evidence of the witness
7 Vajagic I would ask to be in closed session.
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So we need now to take a recess of five minutes
9 or 10 minutes -- five minutes. We will stand in recess then and
10 when we come back we will be in closed session.
1 (Closed Session)
2 (11.10 a.m.)
13 Pages 6641 to 6668 redacted in closed session
1 (Open Session)
2 (11.30 a.m.)
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, would you continue?
4 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour.
5 Cross-Examined by MR. TIEGER, continued.
6 Q. Witness Y, on Friday you told us about coming to Kozarac from
7 Velika Kladusa, and moving into an available house. First of
8 all, how large is the house that you found?
9 A. How do you mean, "how large"?
10 Q. How many rooms, how many storeys, how big a residence was it?
11 A. The one I moved in, the one where I currently live?
12 Q. The first one you moved into upon arrival in Kozarac.
13 A. I do not understand your question. Are you asking about me,
14 about myself, or about everything?
15 Q. I am asking you about the house in which you took residence upon
16 arrival in Kozarac?
17 A. That is more clear. I moved into this house [redacted]
18 [redacted]. It is composed of a kitchen and three
19 rooms on the upper floor.
20 Q. Was that house furnished?
21 A. Well, no, a bit. A few things were there and we had some of our
23 Q. Did it still have kitchenware, for example, or furniture?
24 A. It was not completely furnished. What was left in the kitchen,
25 I mean, there were some old -- there were some old pieces of
26 furniture and also in one room there was a bed and a sofa, and
27 in another room there was a cupboard and another sofa.
28 Q. Were there other homes in the immediate vicinity of the house
1 into which you moved?
2 A. Yes, all the houses in that area were available. There were
3 about 70 families which moved into those houses. They were all
4 standing empty, so in [redacted].
5 Q. Who owned the house before you moved in?
6 A. I do not know, probably Muslims before we moved in. But we had
7 to move somewhere. We had to run for our lives and we needed
8 accommodation and we had to leave our houses, so our main aim
9 was to find temporary accommodation somewhere else.
10 Q. Did you find any documents in the house which indicated the
11 identity of the previous owner or occupant?
12 A. A few papers were there.
13 Q. Which indicated the names of the people who had lived there
15 A. Not exactly the names, but you could have found maps or phone
16 bills, that sort of thing.
17 Q. Photographs?
18 A. Less frequently.
19 Q. The phone bills were sent to the occupant of the house, correct,
20 so they contained the name of the previous occupant?
21 A. Yes, that was earlier between 1990 and 1995, that was when the
22 bills were dated, not 1992.
23 Q. I am sorry, the translation I have said, "that was earlier
24 between 1990 and 1995".
25 THE INTERPRETER: '91.
26 MR. TIEGER: Those old bills that you found indicated the name of the
27 person who had occupied the home before you?
28 A. Yes, there was the name of the owner on the bill.
1 Q. Was that a Muslim name?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What was that name?
4 A. In this case [redacted].
5 Q. Did you learn what happened to [redacted]?
6 A. No. No, I did not.
7 Q. I am sorry, could you spell the last name of the previous
8 occupant, please? It was a little confusing on the transcript?
9 A. [redacted]. Then in
10 later documents relating to this accommodation, to this housing,
11 it was indicated the house belonging to [redacted] is
12 temporarily allocated to so and so. That is what we received
13 from the municipal authorities.
14 Q. So it was the municipal authorities who gave you formal
15 permission to occupy the [redacted] after you had [redacted]
16 A. Well, I have mentioned this earlier. We moved in, about 70
17 families came along and we moved into those houses and after a
18 couple of months there was a committee who came along and they
19 compiled a register. After another few months we received
20 decisions from them relating to that accommodation.
21 Q. You were permitted to stay in the same residence which you had
22 selected upon arrival?
23 A. Yes, I myself was allowed to stay there temporarily. Those
24 decisions related to three or six months periods or a year.
25 Q. In fact it turned out not to be temporary because you are still
26 occupying the same home, correct?
27 A. It is still temporary. It is all temporary.
28 Q. So that residence is still owned by Republika Srpska which
1 allows you to occupy it on a continuing temporary basis?
2 A. Yes, that is on the territory where the authority is currently
3 held by the Republika Srpska.
4 Q. The commission that compiled the register and then later
5 authorised or made decisions authorising persons to stay in
6 homes, was located where - in Kozarac, in Prijedor or some other
8 A. Well, in our case in particular, the commission allocating
9 houses when we moved in was the commission from the municipality
10 of Prijedor.
11 Q. Do you know who the members of that commission were?
12 A. I cannot remember the names. I know more or less, but I cannot
13 remember the names of the members.
14 Q. It was shortly after your arrival in Kozarac that you became
15 involved in both the SDS and in the Reserve Police, is that
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You were among those selected to the local board of the SDS?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Was it the members of the local board who selected the President
21 of the local SDS?
22 A. Well, the members and the citizens assembly.
23 Q. You knew at that time that the local board would be answerable
24 to the main SDS board in Prijedor?
25 A. To be honest, I myself was not really interested in that. So
26 I did not really pay much attention or think about it.
27 Q. Well, it is fair to say that you knew that the local board of
28 the SDS was not an autonomous group, independent of the rest of
1 the SDS in Republika Srpska?
2 A. I do not know.
3 Q. Let me ask the question this way. Did you think you were
4 operating, that you, the members of the local board of the SDS
5 were operating exclusively on your own without direction from
6 any other branch of the SDS?
7 A. Well, no. We knew that our task was to see, I mean, where the
8 orders came from I myself did not really know. I did not go
9 into it. My task was to bring this area back to life, to make
10 life normal as far as possible under such circumstances. That
11 is what I was interested in. Then there was somebody else on a
12 higher level who gave us instructions.
13 Q. Certainly if you were going to strive to bring the area back to
14 life, you were going to need to work closely with those from
15 outside who might be able to provide resources or money or
17 A. I did not know about it.
18 Q. Well, in fact, Witness Y, was not a representative of the main
19 board of the Prijedor SDS present when the local board was
20 established, the local Kozarac board was established?
21 A. I do not understand this question.
22 Q. Sure. At the time of the elections or selection of the local
23 board there was a representative from Prijedor SDS there?
24 A. I do not understand.
25 Q. You understand that there was an SDS board in Prijedor town
26 which was in control of the municipality, isn't that right?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. And was not a representative from that main board of Prijedor
1 present when the local members of the Kozarac SDS were selected?
2 A. I do not remember.
3 Q. At the time that the selections for the President of the SDS
4 were made or was made, you and the other members knew that it
5 would be important for the Kozarac SDS to work closely with the
6 main board in Prijedor, correct?
7 A. Well, of course you had to co-operate.
8 Q. You were hoping to get resources from Prijedor, money from
9 Prijedor and hoping to get permission from Prijedor to do
10 various things that were planned?
11 A. I do not know. I myself was not really interested in money.
12 Q. You knew it was important to select someone both to the board of
13 the SDS and certainly, as President of the SDS, who would be
14 able to work closely with the Prijedor SDS?
15 A. Well, somebody who was familiar with the area had to do that,
16 and somebody who knew the people as well.
17 Q. Sure, and not only the people of Kozarac but also the
18 authorities in Prijedor?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Preferably someone who had previously been a member of the SDS
21 and was considered a reliable and trustworthy member of the SDS
22 by the Prijedor authorities?
23 A. I do not know about that.
24 Q. You knew that Dusko Tadic had been a member of the SDS from the
25 time of its formation in Prijedor?
26 A. I did not know it.
27 Q. So at the time he was selected as President of the SDS you did
28 not know that he had previously been a member of the SDS?
1 A. I was not really interested.
2 Q. You wanted to make sure, you and the others wanted to make sure,
3 that you did not select as President of the SDS someone who was
4 in conflict with the authorities in Prijedor?
5 A. I do not remember.
6 Q. That would undermine every effort you were trying to make, would
7 it not?
8 A. I do not know.
9 Q. You also would not select a settler from Velika Kladusa because
10 that person would not have any influence with the authorities in
11 Prijedor, correct?
12 A. Well, I have already mentioned this. It would make this
13 person's job more difficult. We had no cars. We had no fuel.
14 We could not move about very easily, and so you always had to
15 walk everywhere or hitchhike, etc., and that is why we needed
16 somebody who was familiar with the area.
17 Q. Because it was necessary to work closely and co-operatively with
18 the Prijedor SDS; it was also important to find someone who
19 shared the views and positions of the Prijedor SDS officials?
20 A. I do not know.
21 Q. You knew that Dule Tadic was close with the Prijedor
22 authorities, didn't you?
23 A. Well, I did not. I knew that there was a man who was born
24 there, who had been living there, which meant of course that not
25 only he knew the authorities but he knew many other people as
27 Q. In fact when you first met him he was with officials from
1 A. No. The first time I met him he was with people from Kozarac.
2 Q. When was the first time you saw him with officials from
4 A. I have not really seen him with them.
5 Q. You knew he was working closely with officials from Prijedor
6 during the time of his term as President of the SDS of Kozarac?
7 A. Who gave him instructions or whatever, I do not know.
8 Q. So you just received your instructions from Dule Tadic and you
9 tried to have nothing to do with what was happening in Prijedor?
10 A. Not exactly. The main thing is, I mean, our task was, you know,
11 to see who does what and how, what needs to be done.
12 Q. Witness Y, you were aware of the fact that Kozarac could not
13 make decisions on its own without approval from SDS Prijedor,
15 A. Well, probably that is the way it had to be.
16 Q. So you knew somebody from the Kozarac SDS was co-ordinating with
17 the Prijedor authorities?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And that would have been the President of the local branch of
20 the SDS, Dule Tadic?
21 A. Dusko, yes, he was our President.
22 Q. He communicated to the other members what those decisions from
23 the Prijedor authorities were? You did not have any direct
24 dealings with the Prijedor authorities?
25 A. I have already said that I myself was not really interested in
27 Q. Do you recall the date you became a Reserve Policeman?
28 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. When was that?
2 A. On 25th August 1992.
3 Q. Were you mobilized?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. How did you happen to end up in the Reserve Police rather than,
6 for example, going to the front?
7 A. Well, younger people mainly, well, I did do the regular military
8 service in '82 and I was a driver there. Afterwards in times of
9 peace I would have been in the Reserve Corp., Reserve Police
10 that is, and so basically I was considered as being a part of
11 that between 1982 and the beginning of the war.
12 Q. Was there an existing Police Force in Kozarac before August
14 A. No.
15 Q. How many persons joined the Police Force on August 25th?
16 A. I do not know exactly. I do not know how many. I do not know
17 how many people joined on 25th August.
18 Q. Who was the Commander of the Reserve Police Force?
19 A. Goran Babic.
20 Q. How long did he remain Commander of the force?
21 A. As Commander I do not know exactly.
22 Q. How long did you stay in the Force?
23 A. Until the 20th or rather 19th April this year.
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Excuse me, Mr. Tieger, I believe that there may
25 need to be a redaction regarding an address that the witness
26 mentioned. It is on page 4778 lines 17 through 18. The time
27 was 12.35. It was repeated on page 4780, lines 15 through 16
28 and line 28. The time was 12.40.22. Is there any objection?
1 MR. KAY: No, your Honour.
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Then that will be redacted.
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, it is now 1 o'clock. So we will
4 stand in recess until 2.30. You should remain there witness.
5 (1.00 p.m.)
6 (Luncheon Adjournment)
1 (2.30 p.m.)
2 WITNESS Y, recalled.
3 Cross-Examined by MR. TIEGER, continued.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, you may continue.
5 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour.
6 Q. Witness Y, when was your first day of duty with the Kozarac
7 reserve police?
8 A. On Thursday, on 25th onwards, from the 25th onwards.
9 Q. On that first day where did you serve, what was your duty?
10 A. My duty was to secure the village of Podgradje.
11 Q. Was the Kozarac police station divided into active members and
12 reserve members?
13 A. There were active members and reserve members. We all had the
14 same duties. Maybe the active duty policemen was the person in
15 charge and the reservists could have been his deputies, but we
16 did most of the tasks together.
17 Q. Was there a Commander of active police and a Commander of
18 reserve police separately or was it the same person?
19 A. It was the same person.
20 Q. Approximately, how many active police were there beginning
21 August 25th 1992 in Kozarac?
22 A. I cannot tell you the exact number.
23 Q. Can you approximate the number?
24 A. In the beginning I think there was less people. I think up
25 until -- up to 10.
26 Q. How many reserve police at that time?
27 A. Some more, but I cannot tell you how many.
28 Q. Can you estimate the total force in the Kozarac police station,
1 including both active and reserve?
2 A. I really cannot tell you. I cannot tell you the number at that
4 Q. What about by the time you left the force in April of this year?
5 A. When we were leaving, I think there were some 45 to 50 people
6 all in all, the reservists and the active duty.
7 Q. Was that number greater or lesser than the number of total
8 policemen in August 1992?
9 A. I cannot recall. I cannot recall the number of people in '92.
10 Q. The main police station was located in Prijedor town?
11 A. Yes, there were several police stations. One was in the centre
12 and at Urije, we belonged to that one. There was Prijedor 1.
13 That was the one in the centre and there was Prijedor 2 to which
14 our police unit belonged. We belonged to the Prijedor 2
15 station. There were various stations depending on where they
16 were situated.
17 Q. Who was the overall Commander of police?
18 A. I do not know. I cannot remember.
19 Q. Are you familiar with the name Dusan Jankovic?
20 A. Yes. Yes, it is familiar.
21 Q. Was he the Commander of police?
22 A. I cannot recall who was at that time in the leading position.
23 Q. But it was that person from whom the Commander of the Kozarac
24 police station took his orders?
25 A. I do not know that. I do not know who gave the orders to our
26 Commander. I was not informed about that and nothing to do with
27 my duties.
28 Q. So during your approximately four years of service with the
1 Kozarac police, you never learned who the Commander of police
3 A. I knew who my Commander was, the Commander of our station, and I
4 was not interested. I was doing my job.
5 Q. Were some of the other persons who served with you in the
6 Kozarac police settlers from Velika Kladusa?
7 A. Yes, there were settlers from Velika Kladusa.
8 Q. Others were local Serbs who had lived in the area before the
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. First of all, who were some of the settlers who were colleagues
12 of yours on the police?
13 A. Until the end, Dusan Vajagic remained and then for a shorter
14 period of time, let us say, from 25th August up until the mid
15 November, there were some seven, I think five or seven, settlers
16 from my area.
17 Q. Who were they?
18 A. There was Veljko Gugleta, Rajko Mitrovic, Ranko Zonic, Zamaklar
19 Vajagic and myself.
20 Q. Who were some of the local Serbs, that is, persons who had lived
21 in the area before the conflict who were colleagues of yours in
22 the police?
23 A. The police, you mean?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. There was Goran Babic and Bosko Dragicevic, Dusko Tadic. Then
26 in August, Milenko Janjic, Zeljko Miladinovic and many, many
28 Q. Where was the headquarters of the Kozarac police when it began
1 on August 25th?
2 A. When we started the work, we were in the school building, the
3 primary school that was previously in Kozarac. We were up on
4 the first floor. That is where we were. The Commander was
5 there and our duties were distributed there, and that is where
6 we had to report, in the school building.
7 Q. Did the headquarters later move?
8 A. Yes, at the end, towards the end of November, a great number of
9 people were discharged. So somewhere in November we were
10 transferred to the sawmill where there was an apartment that
11 belonged to the veterinary practice and later on, I do not know
12 when, we were moved once again. We transferred to the place
13 where we are at the moment.
14 Q. Where is that?
15 A. In a house, opposite -- I mean, at the very junction in Kozarac.
16 Q. Witness Y, when were you mobilized?
17 A. The 25th August 1992.
18 Q. Had you received a notice of mobilization prior to that?
19 A. Yes, we had to .....
20 Q. I am sorry, you were going to finish?
21 A. Yes. I said that I received the notice, all of us settlers, we
22 arrived there, we had arrived there, and there were the
23 authorities that were just the same for us, and for us, for the
24 locals and for the refugees. We all had to take part.
25 Q. How soon after your arrival was it when you were advised that
26 you would be mobilized?
27 A. After our arrival, we had to report in order to get these
28 refugee papers and also to report to the military and then,
1 depending on what we used to do before, I was in reserve duty
2 also previously. So as soon as the police was created in
3 Kozarac, I was called up straightaway. Some people were called
4 up later on.
5 Q. You have told us several times that you were interested in
6 bringing Kozarac back to life?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So when you arrived, essentially, Kozarac was a destroyed
10 A. Yes, by these war operations. Quite a lot of things were
12 Q. Whatever community had existed there before the conflict had
13 also been destroyed?
14 A. I do not know. How do you mean? What existed before? I never
15 was in that area before the war broke out.
16 Q. So before the war you did not know that was a predominantly
17 Muslim community?
18 A. No, I was not interested in it before the war so .....
19 Q. After your arrival you learned that it had been a predominantly
20 Muslim community?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. That Muslim community no longer existed in Kozarac?
23 A. Yes -- no.
24 Q. Although Kozarac had been destroyed as a community, there were
25 still items of value left in Kozarac, is that correct?
26 A. How do you mean? What items, like to accommodate people, like
27 houses for families?
28 Q. There were houses, there were goods left in houses, there was
1 copper, there was cattle, there were appliances, there were a
2 variety of goods of value left in Kozarac?
3 A. After our arrival in August, the cattle, quite a lot of it, was
4 not there any more. There were goods in houses, but mostly
5 goods of lesser value, like sofa beds. There was no cattle.
6 There were no major, important appliances, no tractors when we
8 Q. Did the incoming settlers from Velika Kladusa proceed to engage
9 in the looting of such goods as were available?
10 A. Well, we did not need to loot because we were lucky enough to be
11 able to bring along quite a lot of our stuff in order to be able
12 to move in. So there were no reason for us to loot or to take
13 away. As I have mentioned, we did bring quite a lot of things
14 with us and then we later on went to fetch our things from our
15 relatives who still lived in opstinas of Glina and Dvor.
16 Q. So the settlers of Velika Kladusa did not loot houses or steal
18 A. No.
19 Q. What about reserve policemen, were they active in looting?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Were they involved in various shady deals?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You mentioned your awareness of the existence of Trnopolje camp
24 the other day. Was it common for Muslims from Trnopolje camp to
25 be taken out of the camp in order to dig out their stashed away
26 money or other valuables?
27 A. First of all, as far as I know, that was a collection centre.
28 I arrived there in August. That was a collection centre and
1 that somebody had taken them out. I do not know anything about
2 that. There was some four or five kilometres from where I am.
3 I am not aware that something like that was going on.
4 Q. Do you know whether or not military police, guards or Kozarac
5 police were involved in taking Muslims from Trnopolje camp for
6 the purpose of digging out their stashed money or valuables?
7 A. No, nobody went there, as far as police force is concerned. It
8 was not our area of competence. We had nothing to do there.
9 Basically, we were not supposed to go there. Our duties did not
10 include anything in that area, so there was no need, nobody
12 Q. So those would be questions better put to someone who had
13 something to do with Trnopolje camp?
14 A. I do not know who was involved and who was not.
15 Q. You do not know because you were not there?
16 A. Well, as I was saying, I was in [redacted] but neither I, myself,
17 nor my colleagues ever went down there so I really know nothing
18 about it.
19 Q. So you did not hear about a practice of taking Muslims out for
20 that purpose?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Witness Y, I asked you some questions about looting and the
23 settlers of Velika Kladusa. Let me ask at this point if Exhibit
24 344A may be presented to the witness. (Handed). Witness Y, do
25 you see that that document is entitled "My work report in
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. It begins: "I was born on October 1st 1955 in Kozarac"?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can I ask you to turn to the last page, please, and can you tell
3 us whose name appears at the end of that document?
4 A. Here where the stamp is, you mean?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. Tadic, Ostoja, Dusko.
7 Q. Let me ask you to turn to the fourth page of that document.
8 Just to be sure we are on the same page, that is the page that
9 begins with the word "Prijedorio", and the last word of that
10 first line is "komandir", just looking at the first line?
11 A. Yes, OK.
12 Q. Let me ask you to go down to the fifteenth line of that
13 document, please, and look at the sentence which begins with the
14 word "Rezervisane".
15 A. Which line did you say, the fifteenth?
16 Q. Yes, it is in the middle of that line or toward the end, in
18 A. "Reserved houses of" ----
19 Q. Yes, can you read that sentence out loud for us, please?
20 Witness, can you read that sentence out loud for us, please?
21 A. "The reserved houses were used as a storage space for stolen
22 goods and settlers from Velika Kladusa indulged in looting of
23 property and stealing of cattle, including smuggling of cattle,
24 with Muslims at the so-called Sentilj crossing in Banja".
25 Q. Is that true?
26 A. No.
27 Q. May I ask you to turn three more pages and look at the page on
28 which the first three words are "Dana nisu bili"?
1 A. What page once again, can you tell me, to make sure we are on
2 the same page?
3 Q. It should be the seventh page but it is the one that
4 begins "Dana nisu bili"?
5 A. Yes, I have found it, "Dana nisu bili".
6 Q. Looking at the second sentence which begins "Zbog svoje", can
7 you read that out loud, please?
8 A. The second phrase, you mean?
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. "To step up protection of property, people and activities aimed
11 at clearing, cleaning up, the biggest part of Kozara" ----
12 Q. I am sorry to interrupt, but I am actually asking you to begin
13 with the line which starts "Zbog svoje sigurnosti"?
14 A. "Due to security, RSM, of their own volition and without
15 consulting, moved to the nearby DPL whereupon the job was all
16 about protecting themselves and secret participation in looting
17 and other dubious activities".
18 Q. That sentence talks about the reserve police, correct?
19 A. Yes, but, as we have said, this is dated 8th August and we only
20 found it, our Police Force, on 25th August, so it could not have
21 been about the reserve force. We did not exist as such.
22 Q. Is that document not dated August 8th 1993?
23 A. Yes, it is.
24 Q. The reserve police force (about which that sentence is talking)
25 had been in existence for almost one year?
26 A. Yes, but I said that we just moved to DPL, we moved to an
27 apartment -- it was a former veterinary clinic -- and that is
28 where we moved to, did something that I have already mentioned.
1 We moved there around 15th August 1992.
2 Q. So you are saying the sentence is wrong in terms of where the
3 reserve police moved their premises?
4 A. All I know is that we moved at that time.
5 Q. Well, sir, you have been with the police since its inception,
6 the time of its inception, in August 1992 until April of this
7 year. This sentence states that the reserve police actively
8 took part in looting and other shady deals. Is that true or
10 A. It is not true. It is not true that we took part in looting.
11 We were exactly the ones who were supposed to prevent looting.
12 Q. Precisely. You told us a few moments ago that your initial duty
13 with the reserve police was to secure the area of Podgradje?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I believe you told us on Friday that during the early stages of
16 your involvement with the reserve police you would take a force
17 of policemen to the surrounding villages and hills to look for
18 Muslims who were still on the loose?
19 A. No, I did not say that. I did not take any people there. We
20 were a group which, I mean, what I said was that we had a group
21 of about 10 to 11 people who every day around 4 o'clock in the
22 afternoon went to, you know, to make the area safe during the
23 night, and not in order to stalk anyone or chase anyone or
25 Q. So this was a daily duty by certain members of the reserve
27 A. Yes, for a period of time we did go, I do not know for how long
28 exactly. We had this one group, as I said, which went to
1 Podgradje, about 10 to 11 people, in order to protect the people
2 who had stayed there. The other group went to Vidovici, another
3 village. We had less people living there. So about five to six
4 people went to protect that area.
5 Q. How was your group armed when you went in the afternoon for this
7 A. Well, all those who worked at the police station, well, could
8 not have worked without arms, so we all had to be armed. We had
9 guns, and that was the nature of the service. We all had to
10 carry arms.
11 Q. What kind of weapons?
12 A. Well, depending on -- a rifle.
13 Q. A hunting rifle?
14 A. No, automatic or semi-automatic rifles.
15 Q. Were all of the reserve policemen armed in this way?
16 A. Well, both the reserve and active members, as I have mentioned
17 already, were required to carry weapons. That was the nature of
18 the service. Whoever reported for duty was obliged to carry
19 arms. That was the requirement of our job.
20 Q. Did some reserve policemen have the daily job of going to
21 various villages not only in the afternoon but during the course
22 of the entire day looking for remaining Muslims in the area?
23 A. No, no, no.
24 Q. So the only time that members of the reserve police force or the
25 active police force would go to villages or the hills in order
26 to see if there were Muslims in the area would be in the late
28 A. No, we did not go to chase Muslims. We went in order to ensure
1 that there was security for the houses and inhabitants who
2 remained there.
3 Q. You went armed. Who were you looking for?
4 A. Well, it was due to our own security and safety and that is why
5 we all had to carry weapons.
6 Q. You and the others in your group and the other groups that you
7 mentioned went in the afternoon for security purposes without
8 any particular objective in mind?
9 A. Well, perhaps that was the attitude of those people who were
10 frightened and especially the ones who had only just arrived.
11 They were not familiar with the area so they needed a sense of
12 security while they were staying there. I mean, the war was
13 still going on, even though for the most part war operations had
14 already been over but the area was not safe.
15 Q. Were there still Muslims who had previously lived in the area
16 thought to be in the hills and villages?
17 A. I myself have never encountered them.
18 Q. So you do not know one way or another whether there were Muslims
19 remaining in the area or not?
20 A. I do not know.
21 Q. Did you ever hear any, of any of those Serbs who accompanied you
22 or went on the other groups object to this duty?
23 A. No, nobody objected. Of course we did everything.
24 Q. You led one of the groups and Dusko Tadic led another group?
25 A. No, I did not lead any groups.
26 Q. So you went on one group and Dusko Tadic led another group?
27 A. He went with the other group. He was a member of that other
28 group. I was in one group and he was in the other. So one
1 group ensured the security of the police station and the other
2 group ensured the security of [redacted], and that was for two
3 shifts and then we changed around. We reversed the roles. Let
4 us say on one day we were at the police station and the
5 following day it was [redacted], etc.
6 Q. Who led Dusko Tadic's group?
7 A. I cannot remember.
8 Q. On Friday you told us that you would see Dusko Tadic often at
9 the premises of the Local Commune and also see him frequently
10 when he was hitchhiking to Prijedor?
11 A. Yes, from the very start, Dusko, from the very start, from
12 setting up of the Local Commune, he had strong ties to the
13 commune, although it was not his duty to work there. I mean, he
14 had a whole lot of tasks and duties within the Police Force, but
15 he also had his office at the Local Commune. Then during the
16 process of the discharge, when he was discharged from the
17 police, he dedicated all his energy to his work at the Local
18 Commune and he used to spend a great deal of time there.
19 Occasionally he would go to Prijedor as well. I mean, at that
20 time it was really difficulty because we had no fuel or anything
21 and it was very difficult to move about and travel anywhere.
22 Q. Was fuel rationed?
23 A. Yes, yes, fuel was rationed.
24 Q. How much fuel were citizens of the area able to obtain?
25 A. At that stage when we first arrived we got some fuel in order to
26 bring over our tractors and lorries and trucks and cars etc., a
27 certain amount which is sufficient for us to get there, and we
28 had to produce certificates from the municipal authorities and
1 then later on for the harvest.
2 Q. So fuel was provided for particular purposes?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. How many vehicles were generally on the road?
5 A. I do not know.
6 Q. Was it unusual to see a vehicle on the road for long periods of
7 time sometimes pass before you were able to find a car passing
8 in order to help someone hitchhike into town?
9 A. I do not know. For the most part, those were military vehicles
10 and a few others.
11 Q. During the times you saw Dusko Tadic after he left the reserve
12 police, I believe you indicated you saw him in civilian clothes?
13 A. Yes, for the most part he was wearing civilian clothes.
14 I remember that clearly.
15 Q. Did you also sometimes see him in a multi-coloured uniform?
16 A. No, no, later on, only while he was a member of the Police
17 Force, we had a police uniform and we were required to wear it
18 when on duty.
19 Q. You indicated on Friday that because of the frequency with which
20 you saw him at the Local Commune premises and attempting to
21 hitchhike that you were certain that Mr. Tadic did not go to
22 Trnopolje in November?
23 A. Yes, I am certain.
24 Q. Are you also certain he did not go to Trnopolje in October?
25 A. I am certain, certainly he did not go.
26 Q. The same degree of certainty for December?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Sir, would your degree of certainty about that be affected if
1 you knew that he had told law enforcement officials from Germany
2 that he been in Trnopolje five times in October, November and
4 A. No, I am certain about what I am saying.
5 MR. TIEGER: Nothing further, your Honour.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
7 Re-examined by MR. KAY
8 Q. Witness Y, did you take part in any looting of property?
9 A. No.
10 MR. KAY: Thank you. That is all I ask.
11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger?
12 MR. TIEGER: No, your Honour.
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you have anything further, Mr. Kay?
14 MR. KAY: No.
15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I have a few questions.
16 Examined by the Court
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, how was the President of the SDS in
18 Kozarac chosen? Was there an election or was he appointed?
19 A. There was an election. He was appointed President or, rather,
20 Secretary of the Local Commune.
21 Q. Then there was an election for the presidency of the SDS?
22 A. Yes, the presidency of the SDS and the President of the Local
23 Commune or, rather, the Secretary.
24 THE INTERPRETER: The speaker corrects himself.
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Who were the candidates for those positions?
26 A. I cannot remember now.
27 Q. But Mr. Tadic became the President of SDS, is that correct?
28 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did he become the Secretary of the Local Commune at the same
2 time? Is that your understanding?
3 A. Well, the duties of the Secretary and the President of the SDS
4 were carried out.
5 Q. By him?
6 A. Yes, the Secretary of the Local Commune.
7 Q. So then he was, as far as you know, elected to these two
8 positions at the same time?
9 A. I do not exactly know whether at the same time, but he was
10 carrying out both duties.
11 Q. Who voted in this election or who was permitted to vote in this
13 A. Well, all people coming from that area, all the people from the
14 area of the Local Commune.
15 Q. That would have been in Kozarac?
16 A. Kozarac, [redacted], Hrnici, Podgradje, Vidovici -- the entire
17 area under -- the entire area of the Local Commune.
18 Q. Are those the areas that the Local Commune covered, the areas
19 that you mentioned, or were there others as well?
20 A. I may not have mentioned all these places but everything from
21 the Local Commune of Kozarac.
22 Q. Were there ballots that were sent out to the people in these
24 A. No.
25 Q. How did you vote? How would one vote in the election?
26 A. I do not know how to explain that to you.
27 Q. Where did you go, for example, to vote?
28 A. Mostly there by the school.
1 Q. So persons in Kozarac then went to the school to make their vote
2 for these two positions, is that your understanding?
3 A. From every village, every village had a representative, and so
4 there was a representative of every village who was chosen by
5 the Citizens Assembly. The Citizens Assembly gathers and then
6 they elect the Secretary.
7 Q. So the Citizens Assembly then voted or chose the Secretary of
8 the Local Commune as well as the President of the SDS?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. So you did not vote in that election or did you? Yes, I think
11 you said -- were you a member of the Citizens Assembly?
12 A. Yes. Yes, we all were.
13 Q. Was every person in this area a member of the Citizens
14 Assembly? Persons were elected, I gather, to be members of the
15 Citizens Assembly?
16 A. Yes, people were elected.
17 Q. The Citizens Assembly then, if I understand you correctly,
18 elected the Secretary of the Local Commune and the President of
19 the SDS?
20 A. Yes, the Secretary, yes.
21 Q. What about the President of the SDS, how was he selected or
23 A. Yes, by these members of the SDS, something like that.
24 Q. Did the Citizens Assembly elect the President of the SDS or was
25 there some other process that you do not know about?
26 A. I cannot remember now exactly.
27 Q. Bosko Dragicevic, was he a member of your group or was he in the
28 other group with Mr. Tadic?
1 A. He was a member of our group -- no. I was a representative of
2 the settlers. He was a member. We were all members, Dusko,
3 myself, Bosko and the others.
4 Q. When you were reserve policeman, if I understand your testimony
5 correctly, there were two different groups that would go out to
6 various areas to secure the areas, and you testified that you
7 were in a different group than Mr. Tadic, is that correct?
8 A. Depending on the duties and the job we had to do at the moment;
9 one group did one thing, the other group did something else. It
10 all depended on the group and the duty we had to do in a
11 particular area.
12 Q. If I understand you correctly, you testified that at one point a
13 group would be responsible for maintaining the police station
14 and then the other group would be sent out to various areas to
15 secure the areas and then you would alternate; that group that
16 was sent out to secure the areas would then maintain the police
17 station, is that correct?
18 A. We had -- in the police station there was somebody who was on
19 duty, then a deputy, so there would be the person, the officer
20 in charge, his deputy and then these groups which had those
21 duties. We did not work around the clock. We had time to rest,
22 to go home, but also to go to the police station and do our job.
23 Q. Did Bosko Dragicevic work in your group ever?
24 A. Well, yes, Bosko Dragicevic worked with us at the police.
25 Q. Did he work in your group ever, the group that went out to
26 secure areas?
27 A. I cannot recall, not really that.
28 Q. You cannot remember whether he ever worked with you when you
1 went out to secure areas?
2 A. I have already mentioned that we would not be going there for
3 many times. It was just for a short period of time we went to
4 secure those villages, and later on just we would make rounds
5 from time to time and in order to prevent something happening,
6 and then till the end now in '96 we had those patrols. There
7 were people in those patrols going just to see that nothing
8 would happen.
9 Q. Why were the reserve police officers not supposed to go to
11 A. Because not only the reserve duty but also the active duty
12 policemen were not supposed to be going there because it was six
13 kilometres from our police station, and our police station was
14 covering our Local Commune. I told you which villages those
15 were, Vidovici, Podgradje, Kozarusa, part of Kozarusa, then
16 Kozarac, [redacted], Hrnici and up, yes -- from Kozarac to
17 Trnopolje there were six kilometres and so just halfway there,
18 there was no need for us to go to Trnopolje. That was not the
19 area we covered. We had no duty there and we could not go
20 there. It is a completely different territory. They had their
21 own police in Trnopolje, their own police station.
22 Q. What kind of uniform did you wear -- camouflage and, if so, what
24 A. The first uniforms we were given, they had a blue shirt and then
25 these warm clothing, warm uniform, of the prewar police, those
26 blue uniforms, the warm ones, and if somebody had a possibility
27 to obtain another uniform, he was free to wear it. So we were
28 given two blue shirts and this uniform, the warmer one, but
1 later on from time to time the uniforms were changed up until
2 the very end.
3 Q. So when you were a reserve policeman performing duties or when
4 you were an active policeman, you wore a blue shirt and blue
6 A. Yes, at first we were wearing those uniforms. We were given a
7 blue shirt and that type of uniform, mostly blue. But, as
8 I have mentioned, maybe somebody else who had some kind of a
9 uniform who was an active duty policeman previously who came
10 from somewhere like from Zagreb, for example, that person was
11 free to wear his own uniform.
12 Q. Did you ever wear a camouflage uniform or did you ever see any
13 of the other policemen wearing camouflage uniforms?
14 A. Later on in 1995, at the end of '95, we received police
15 uniforms, the real ones, like the ones that are worn now.
16 Q. Is that a camouflage uniform?
17 A. That is a working uniform, sort of patched, the ones that are
18 used at the moment.
19 Q. Did you ever see other police officers wearing camouflage
20 uniforms between '92 until the present?
21 A. I do not understand. Could you please develop that a bit?
22 Q. Did you ever see any policemen in Kozarac in 1992 wearing a
23 camouflage uniform, multi-colour camouflage uniform?
24 A. I have already mentioned, if somebody had or received from
25 somebody that -- you know, mostly people were wearing uniforms,
26 because there were problems with transport. So if somebody
27 could give you a lift, they would give a lift to a person
28 wearing a uniform, so whoever could have this nice uniform or a
1 light one -- because the uniforms we wore were pretty warm, so
2 if somebody had the possibility to get such a uniform, and
3 I cannot remember now who had those uniforms because lots of
4 time has passed, so I cannot remember who of my policemen had
5 such a police uniform, but there was a possibility to wear it --
6 wear them.
7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, do you have questions?
8 MR. KAY: No, thank you, your Honour.
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, would you like to ask any
11 MR. TIEGER: If the Court would give me just one moment?
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Please.
13 MR. TIEGER: No, your Honour, thank you.
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to the witness being
15 permanently excused?
16 MR. TIEGER: Yes, there is.
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Sir, you are excused now. You are free to
18 leave and go home, but you should make yourself available
19 because you may be recalled as a witness. So you should keep in
20 touch with Mr. Kay and if he tells you that you have been asked
21 to return you should return. Will you do that?
22 A. Yes, I will.
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine, thank you. You are excused.
24 MR. KAY: He should not get up and the next witness will be known as
25 Witness D in open session, but with a scrambled image. So if we
26 can bring the blinds down on this side of the court, your
28 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will need to stand in recess anyway for 10
2 MR. KAY: Yes.
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I am looking -- 10 minutes, OK, thank you.
4 (3.40 p.m.)
5 (The Court adjourned for a short time)
6 (4.05 p.m.)
7 MISS DE BERTODANO: Your Honour, the next witness is Witness D.
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I understand that with respect to Witness D
9 there will be some questions that are asked that you will want
10 to be in private session on. So you will advise us, but mostly
11 the technical booth, when we are to go into private session and
12 then advise when we can go back into full public session.
13 MISS DE BERTODANO: Yes, your Honour, I intend to do that as soon as
14 I have identified the witness, the witness's name, and then we
15 will go immediately into private session while I ask some
16 identifying data and then back into open session.
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, but you will have to give the signal to the
18 booth. This is the first time that we are doing this, so we
19 will work together on it, but I will leave it up to you.
20 MISS DE BERTODANO: Thank you, your Honour.
21 WITNESS D, called
22 Examined by MISS DE BERTODANO
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Would you please take the oath that is being
24 handed to you?
25 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak
26 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
27 (The witness was sworn)
28 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated.
1 MISS DE BERTODANO: Witness, I am going to hand you a piece of paper
2 with a name on it. I am going to ask you to tell the Court
3 whether it is your name that appears on that piece of paper.
5 A. Yes, that is my name.
6 Q. Show that to the Prosecution. At this point I would ask that
7 the sound be switched off?
1 (Private Session)
13 Page 6702 redacted in Private session
1 (Open session)
2 Witness D, do you know the defendant Dusko Tadic?
3 A. Yes. I do.
4 Q. How long have you known him?
5 A. Since childhood.
6 Q. Where did you first meet him?
7 A. In Kozarac.
8 Q. Was he your contemporary in age or was he a different age?
9 A. He is slightly older than I am, two years older.
10 Q. Did he go to school in Kozarac?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you attend the same school?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. Do you know his wife Mira?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. How long have you known her?
17 A. For a long time. We have grown up together in Kozarac.
18 Q. Witness, during the last five years before the conflict
19 occurred, how often would you say that you saw Dusko and Mira
21 A. Very often.
22 Q. Can you estimate how many times a week or a month you would have
23 seen them?
24 A. Roughly speaking, some weeks, two to three times per week, but
26 Q. Where would you see them?
27 A. I would see them at their place, at my place.
28 Q. Where were they living at that time?
1 A. During the war, you mean?
2 Q. Prior to the war.
3 A. Before the war, immediately prior to the war or -- I do not know
4 what -- they lived at my house. They lived at my house, in my
5 family house.
6 Q. Where was that?
7 A. In Kozarac.
8 Q. When did they live in that house?
9 A. For about four years immediately before the war, maybe half a
10 year to a year before the war, up until then.
11 Q. So they moved from that house half a year to a year before the
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Where did they move to then?
15 A. They moved out because they extended their house. They also
16 made a cafe bar and so they went back to their family house.
17 Q. Did you ever visit that family house?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you visit the cafe bar?
20 A. I might have been there once.
21 Q. In the year prior to the war did you continue to see the Tadic's
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you remember on approximately what date Prijedor was taken
26 A. At the end of April 1992.
27 Q. Can you remember approximately when the conflict in Kozarac
1 A. I do not know the exact date, but there was about a month or
2 maybe slightly more than a month later.
3 Q. So sometime towards the end of May?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. In relation to those events, can you remember when you last saw
6 Dusko Tadic before the conflict in Kozarac?
7 A. I cannot remember the exact date, but maybe about a month or
9 Q. When Kozarac was attacked, where were you at that time?
10 A. When Kozarac was attacked I was staying with my mother-in-law in
11 a different town.
12 Q. When had you gone to stay with her?
13 A. I did not move. I just went there to fetch my children. That
14 is where my children were staying.
15 Q. Can you remember about when it was that you went to fetch your
17 A. Yes, it was a Friday on the day when Hambarine were attacked,
18 roughly speaking around 11 o'clock.
19 Q. How long did you stay there?
20 A. I arrived two days after Prijedor was attacked.
21 Q. Can you remember approximately when that was?
22 A. I cannot remember the date. Prijedor was attacked, I do not
23 know on which date, but it was two days later.
24 Q. Can you remember approximately for how long you stayed away from
26 A. Maybe some 10 to 15 days.
27 Q. Did you see Dusko Tadic at all after you returned to Prijedor?
28 A. I did not see him straightaway.
1 Q. Did you see him at any time?
2 A. During that period?
3 Q. At any time after you returned from being away and collecting
4 your children, did you see Dusko Tadic?
5 A. Yes, yes, I did see him.
6 Q. Can you remember about when that was?
7 A. That might have been at the end of May when he came from Banja
8 Luka. He and Mira came and they went to -- they came to visit,
9 so I saw them.
10 Q. When you say the end of May, you have told us that you were away
11 for some 10 or 15 days and that you went towards the end of
12 May. Was it after you returned that you saw Dusko Tadic?
13 A. Yes, after our return. That is what I thought I said.
14 Q. Can you remember how long after you returned, approximately?
15 A. In this war time does not mean anything to me, everything seems
16 to be the same, but it was very soon, maybe half a month. I do
17 not know the dates, but later on after my return I saw him.
18 Q. So if I can just check that I have these details right. You
19 left on the day that Hambarine was attacked?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You spent some 10 or 15 days away?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And perhaps half a month later you saw Dusko Tadic?
24 A. Yes, roughly.
25 Q. Where did you see him?
26 A. They came to visit me in my flat.
27 Q. Did they tell you where they were living at that time?
28 A. Yes.
1 Q. Where were they living?
2 A. They told me that they fled to Banja Luka to some Croats.
3 I think [redacted] was his name, but I do not know.
4 Q. Did they tell you which members of the family fled to Banja
6 A. His family, Mira, his children and his mother, Dusko's mother.
7 Q. Where were they living when you saw them at this time?
8 A. You mean when I saw them when they returned, the first time
9 I saw them after they came from Banja Luka? They were in Banja
10 Luka and they were -- they came because they wanted to go back
11 to Prijedor and they were trying to find some accommodation.
12 Q. Had they found accommodation when they first saw you or were
13 they still looking for it?
14 A. No, shortly after that time they found accommodation, so they
15 settled in Prijedor.
16 Q. Where in Prijedor did they settle?
17 A. It is a part of town called Pecani and the building is B2. I do
18 not know the number of the flat. I cannot remember it.
19 Q. Can you remember how long they lived in Pecani for?
20 A. Almost up until the moment they left for Germany, not all the
21 time, because they were moved out of that flat.
22 Q. When they were living in Pecani did you see them often?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you tell us approximately how often you saw them?
25 A. Very often -- every week, several times, it depends.
26 Q. Where would you see them?
27 A. In their flat, they also would come to see my family.
28 Q. When they were first living back in Prijedor, can you remember
1 whether Dusko Tadic had a job?
2 A. You mean when they came back from Banja Luka?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. I think he was in the police force.
5 Q. Can you remember what his job was within the police force?
6 A. No, no, we did not discuss that.
7 Q. Did you know where he worked?
8 A. I think he was going to Orlovci, but we never talked about that.
9 Q. Do you remember approximately how long he was doing that job?
10 A. Up until he started working at the Local Commune. When was that
11 exactly? I cannot remember.
12 Q. What Local Commune did he start working for?
13 A. Kozarac.
14 Q. Can you remember at all at what time that might have been?
15 A. Well, roughly at the end of the summer, maybe early September.
16 I cannot tell you exactly but thereabouts.
17 Q. He was still living in Prijedor at that time?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you know how often he went to Kozarac when he was working for
20 the Local Commune?
21 A. I do not know. I suppose he should have gone every day, but I
22 do not know.
23 Q. Do you know how he got to Kozarac, how he travelled to Kozarac?
24 A. I believe -- I know he used to tell me he would hitchhike as
25 there was no transport. He did as he could. He managed.
26 Q. Did your work ever take you to Kozarac?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. What sort of work would you have been doing in Kozarac?
1 A. We used to go because of allocating housing to refugees as
2 members of the commission.
3 Q. Who were members of the commission apart from yourself?
4 A. The members, other members, I was a deputy, but when my
5 colleague was unable to go, I used to go. So we had Jelicic
6 Milada, myself and Tomo Dasic and, as a representative of the
7 Local Commune, Dusko Tadic.
8 Q. What was the commission's job to do with allocating houses?
9 A. We received a decision from the Municipal Assembly. We compiled
10 a register, and then it was up to the legal service to make the
11 final decisions. I mean, my job was identifying those houses.
12 Q. Did you ever allocate the houses within the commission or was it
13 someone else who did that?
14 A. The commission did not allocate houses. We had a special
15 service; Radmila Dudic, for example, who was our Legal Officer.
16 Q. Can you remember for how long that commission was in existence?
17 A. It still exists. I mean, not mine other people work there, but
18 housing is being allocated to refugees even now.
19 MISS DE BERTODANO: Your Honour, I am told that we need a redaction.
20 The time is 16.24.20 and it is a redaction of a name.
21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann, are you able to pull it up on your
23 MR. NIEMANN: We have not, your Honour.
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: If you can see it, Mr. Niemann, I will ask you
25 if you have any objection; if you do not, then it can be done
26 even though I have not seen it.
27 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, we have no objection in the abstract,
28 although it is not entirely clear whether or not this redaction
1 is in response to any previous motion or request. If it is a
2 new matter, I guess -----
3 MR. WLADIMIROFF: No, it is not. It says "at" but it should be
4 "that" and then you have a name and that name is linked to a
5 protected witness.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Oh, yes. Any objection?
7 MR. TIEGER: No, your Honour.
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good.
9 MISS DE BERTODANO: Witness D, how long were you involved with that
11 A. I think I went about twice, not more than that.
12 Q. Can you remember what months of the year that would have been?
13 A. I think it was August in that year when the refugees from
14 Bosanska Bojna first arrived.
15 Q. When you went on that commission, did all of the four people
16 that you mentioned always go or were there sometimes less than
18 A. On one occasion my colleague Milada went and on another occasion
19 there was just the three of us, Dasic and myself and Tadic.
20 Q. During the period after Dusko Tadic had worked in the police,
21 did you see him in other places apart from while you were
22 working together on the commission?
23 A. We did see each other at home privately.
24 Q. Did Dusko Tadic ever talk to you about the conflict?
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Can you remember what he felt about the conflict, what he said
27 he felt about the conflict?
28 A. We talked. I mean, it was difficult because all that was
1 happening to us, our friends, our neighbours, our acquaintances,
2 our colleagues, both mine and his.
3 Q. Did he tell you what he felt about that?
4 A. Sadness.
5 Q. Witness, it is clear from your evidence that you had known Dusko
6 Tadic for a number of years. Can you tell the Court anything
7 about his character?
8 A. A good friend, a good father, a good parent, a good husband.
9 There is nothing which is not good I can tell you about him, as
10 far as I know.
11 Q. When did you last see Dusko Tadic?
12 A. When they were supposed to leave for Germany.
13 Q. Can you remember when that was?
14 A. I think it was sometime around August or September, just before
15 the start of the school year in 1993.
16 MISS DE BERTODANO: That is all I ask.
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger?
18 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour. Your Honour, perhaps I could
19 make the same request that Miss de Bertodano made and have the
20 sound turned off for a moment because I will be asking questions
21 that would otherwise transgress the purpose of the facial
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Very good. That may be done. You just let the
24 technical people know.
25 MR. TIEGER: OK. If we can have the sound turned off now?
1 (Private Session)
13 Pages 6712 to 6716 redacted in Private session
1 (Open session)
2 MISS DE BERTODANO: Nothing arising, your Honour.
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to this witness being
4 permanently excused?
5 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Witness, you are free to leave at this
7 time and go home. However, you are subject to being recalled
8 for testimony before the Tribunal, so you should make yourself
9 available. Keep in touch with Miss de Bertodano and if she
10 tells you that you have been asked to return, then you should
11 return. Will you do that?
12 THE WITNESS: Yes.
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you very much for coming. You should
14 remain in your seat and then we will leave for five minutes --
15 is that enough -- and then we will return.
16 (4.55 p.m.)
17 (The Court adjourned for a short time)
18 (5.00 p.m.)
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, would you call your next witness,
21 MR. KAY: We call Mira Tadic.
22 MIRA TADIC, called
23 Examined by MR. KAY
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Would you please take the oath that has been
25 handed to you?
26 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak
27 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
28 (The witness was sworn)
1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. You may be seated Mr. Kay, you may
3 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.
4 Q. Is your name Mira Tadic?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Are you the wife of Dusko Tadic?
7 A. I am.
8 Q. Can you tell us when you were married to Dusko Tadic?
9 A. On 2nd August 1979.
10 Q. Whereabouts did that marriage take place?
11 A. We did not get married straightaway. First, we went to the
12 seaside and then we got married later on in Kozarac after a
14 Q. The marriage in Kozarac, did that take place in a church or a
15 public building?
16 A. At the local office.
17 Q. Do you have children by your marriage to Dusko Tadic?
18 A. Yes, two daughters.
19 Q. What are their names?
20 A. The older one is called Valentina and the younger one Alexandra.
21 Q. Do you come from the Kozarac area?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. Whereabouts were you born?
24 A. I was born in the village of Vidovici.
25 Q. Perhaps if we could look at the Defence Exhibit 13A so that we
26 can see that on the map? If you could just look at that map for
27 a moment, madam, just to familiarise yourself with it and then
28 we will put it on the screen beside you. Do you see Kozarac in
1 the middle of the map?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you see the village of Vidovici on the right-hand side of the
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Perhaps at this stage for information purposes that could just
7 be put on the overhead projector? Thank you. The village of
8 Vidovici there is on the outskirts of Kozarac, is that right?
9 A. Yes, three kilometres away from Kozarac.
10 Q. What is your maiden name?
11 A. Vidovic.
12 Q. Does your family originate and is your family centred in that
13 area of Vidovici?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do your parents still live there?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do other close relatives of yours still live in that village?
18 A. Some do, some do not.
19 Q. Whereabouts do you live now?
20 A. In Prijedor.
21 Q. Is that with your two children?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What is your job?
24 A. I am a nurse.
25 Q. Where do you work as a nurse?
26 A. At the local clinic in Prijedor.
27 Q. Did you qualify to or train to become a nurse?
28 A. Yes.
1 Q. When did you finish your training?
2 A. In 1979, in May 1979.
3 Q. Have you been largely employed as a nurse since 1979?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You are working at present in the hospital in Prijedor. Have
6 you worked in other hospitals in opstina Prijedor?
7 A. No, only at the hospital in Prijedor.
8 Q. I am going to ask you some questions now about your background.
9 When did you first start to live with Dusko Tadic?
10 A. Since August 1979.
11 Q. For how long had you known him?
12 A. I met him in January 1976.
13 Q. Whereabouts did you meet him?
14 A. In Kozarac.
15 Q. Had you seen him in Kozarac, did you know about him in Kozarac
16 before you first met him?
17 A. I knew about him, but I did not know him personally.
18 Q. Did you attend school in Kozarac?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. If you could tell us how old you are?
21 A. I went to school in Kozarac up until I was 15 years old.
22 Q. And how old are you now?
23 A. 35.
24 Q. Thank you. Had you had any connection with the Tadic family
25 before you met Dusko?
26 A. No.
27 Q. Having met Dusko Tadic in 1976, did you get to know other
28 members of his family?
1 A. Not during that year, but later on, yes.
2 Q. So did you get to know his father Ostoja?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. His mother Staka?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And his brothers Ljubo, Stojan and Mladen?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did the Tadic family know your family? For instance, did Ostoja
9 Tadic know your father?
10 A. Yes, he did.
11 Q. What is the name of your father?
12 A. Radovan Vidovic.
13 Q. Growing up as you did in Kozarac, how would you describe the
14 relations between the different ethnic communities that we know
15 existed in that town?
16 A. I grew up in Kozarac and the relationship between the
17 nationalities was very good. We went to school together. We
18 would help one another. Everything was well.
19 Q. How would you describe your ethnic background?
20 A. I am a Serb from Kozarac.
21 Q. Did you have Muslim friends and Croat friends who lived in the
22 Kozarac area?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. When you came to know Dusko Tadic did he have Muslim friends and
25 Croat friends in the Kozarac area?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. You have put the time of your marrying Dusko Tadic as being 1979
28 when you went on holiday together. Is that because you started
1 living together as a couple?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you tell us what work Dusko Tadic was doing at that time?
4 What was his job?
5 A. At that time when we got married we were both unemployed.
6 Q. Did Dusko Tadic later on become employed?
7 A. Yes, a year later, somewhere in October 1980.
8 Q. What sort of work did he do then?
9 A. Then he worked in Banja Luka at the Rudi Cajavec company.
10 Q. What is the work of that company?
11 A. That was a military, a military part of that company. They were
12 making some electronic appliances.
13 Q. As far as you knew, did Dusko Tadic then have work as an
14 electrician or as an electrical engineer in that factory?
15 A. I do not know how to describe it. He was connecting some parts,
16 I do not know for what purpose, but anyway he had secondary
17 school type of qualifications.
18 Q. For how long did he work there?
19 A. He worked there up until 1986.
20 Q. When did you first get your job as a nurse having qualified in
22 A. On 15th October 1979.
23 Q. Can you tell us the year when you had your first child?
24 A. On 11th April 1980.
25 Q. Did Dusko Tadic always remain in employment or did he ever have
26 periods when he was unemployed?
27 A. He started to work in October 1980. Until 1986 he worked in the
28 Cajavec company.
1 Q. Sorry, I did not understand that. In what company? If you
2 could repeat your last answer?
3 A. Since October 1979 up until the beginning of 1986 he worked in
4 Banja Luka at the Rudi Cajavec company.
5 Q. After that time of 1986 was he ever unemployed or has he always
6 been continuously in employment?
7 A. In that period in 1986 I went to Libya. Then he stopped working
8 and went there with me, and when we came back in 1987 he opened
9 a private company for some construction work.
10 Q. Was it you then who first of all got a job in Libya?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What was that work in Libya?
13 A. I worked as a nurse.
14 Q. Did Dusko Tadic go to Libya with you or did he travel to Libya
15 separately and at a later stage?
16 A. He came later after me.
17 Q. Have you ever been divorced from Dusko Tadic?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When did that happen?
20 A. I cannot tell you exactly the year, probably 1987, roughly
22 Q. Was that when you came back from Libya or whilst you were in
24 A. Yes, when we came back.
25 Q. Did you take your eldest daughter to Libya with you?
26 A. No, my husband brought her with him when he arrived.
27 Q. For how long did you work in Libya?
28 A. Up until the end of 1986, from January till November 1986.
1 Q. When you lived in Libya did Dusko Tadic get a job?
2 A. No, officially he was working in his firm, in his company in
3 Banja Luka, but he asked for a break in order to be able to
4 accompany me. So officially he was employed but he was not
6 Q. Before you left for Libya did the two of you spend your early
7 married life in Kozarac?
8 A. Yes, in Kozarac in the family house.
9 Q. Is that the house where the family still live today?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Perhaps if we could look at a photograph now just to identify
12 that. Prosecution Exhibit 300, I think it is 300A and B or
13 Prosecution Exhibit 300. If you could just look at that for a
14 moment and then if it could be put on the projector so that
15 people can see it. (Handed).
16 Is that the house that you spoke of that we see in the
17 photograph on the screen?
18 A. Yes, that is that house but without that extended part of it.
19 That is what it looked like when we went to Libya.
20 Q. The picture we see now is a house that has been extended since
21 the early days of your marriage, is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. As we look at that photograph now, can you indicate to us by
24 turning to your right and pointing with the steel pointer the
25 part of the building where you lived in the early years of your
26 marriage before 1986?
27 A. [The witness indicated on the photograph] That is the part.
28 Q. Is it right that today that is now in fact a cafe and bar run by
1 Dusko Tadic's brother Mladen?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you. When you came back from Libya at the end of 1986,
4 whereabouts did the two of you then go and live?
5 A. At the end of 1986 we came back but in early 1987, that is in
6 the spring of 1987, we moved into private accommodation in
7 Kalate, in the Rade Kondic Street.
8 Q. That is another different part of Kozarac from where the family
9 home is situated, is that right?
10 A. No, this is a small street.
11 Q. Yes, but it is in a different street from where the family home
12 is situated in Marsala Tita Street?
13 A. Yes, that is a different street.
14 Q. What sort of accommodation did you have there in 1987?
15 A. We had the whole, the entire ground floor of the house. It was
16 good accommodation.
17 Q. What was the cause for your divorce in 1987?
18 A. In 1987 Dule and I tried to go to a foreign country as a nurse.
19 There was a possibility to get a job in Switzerland, but there
20 was a high chance, a high probability to get a job if one was
21 single. That is why we divorced.
22 Q. So would it be right to describe it as a divorce of convenience?
23 A. Yes, by common accord.
24 Q. Did you get that job in Switzerland that you hoped to get as a
25 single nurse?
26 A. No.
27 Q. Did the divorce get processed through the authorities in the
28 former Yugoslavia?
1 A. Well, officially we divorced in court by mutual agreement.
2 Q. Did you ever remarry or get undivorced?
3 A. No.
4 Q. But did you and he continue living together?
5 A. We have always lived together.
6 Q. The youngest child that you have, what is the date of birth of
7 that child?
8 A. 3rd March 1989.
9 Q. In 1987 did Dusko Tadic, having returned from Libya, find other
11 A. Yes, in 1987 he created his own company.
12 Q. Can you remember the name of that company?
13 A. They were doing carpentry work for construction buildings. That
14 is how it was called then. It was in Sisak.
15 Q. Where is Sisak?
16 A. In Croatia.
17 Q. Where was the company based?
18 A. In Sisak.
19 Q. Did he go to work in Croatia for the company that he had formed?
20 A. The company was not doing actually work where it was founded,
21 but on various construction sites in Zagreb, Ljubljana,
22 Belgrade, wherever they agreed to do a particular job.
23 Q. Did he form that company on his own or was anyone else involved?
24 A. With a colleague, not on his own.
25 Q. What was that colleague's name?
26 A. Fikret Salkanovic.
27 Q. Working for that company did they employ other people to work
28 with them or was it just the two of them?
1 A. They employed other people.
2 Q. At this time did you return to work as a nurse when you had come
3 back from Libya?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Again, was that in the hospital in Prijedor?
6 A. No, I made a mistake. Since 1992 I worked in the hospital in
7 Prijedor, and up until '92 I worked at the hospital in Kozarac.
8 This is basically the same company, but there were two various
9 places where I worked. Basically I lived and worked in Kozarac.
10 Q. So when you said that your first job as a nurse was later on in
11 1979, was that working at the hospital in Kozarac?
12 A. Yes, I made a mistake initially.
13 Q. Was that hospital in fact run by the major hospital in Prijedor?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. KAY: Your Honour, that is a convenient moment.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We thought that we would talk with counsel for
17 a few moments. So, Mrs. Tadic, you are free to leave. You
18 should return tomorrow at 10 a.m., please. We are going to
19 remain here a moment to talk with the attorneys. So you are
20 free to leave now.
21 (The witness withdrew).
22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We thought that we would use this new mechanism
23 of turning off the sound, so I would like to ask the technician
24 to turn off the sound that will enable us to talk confidentially
25 with counsel.
1 (Private Session)
13 Page 6728 redacted in Private Session
26 (5.30 p.m.)
27 (The court adjourned until the following day).