1 Wednesday, 16th October 1996.
2 (Open session)
3 (10.00 a.m.)
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Marro, we are ready to continue. Would you
5 bring in Mr. Prpos?
6 JUDGE STEPHEN: Mr. Kay, I just noticed that there is reference to
7 the time served on the bridge.
8 MR. KAY: Yes.
9 JUDGE STEPHEN: I do not see that in the documents. There was some
10 reference to it being recorded.
11 MR. KAY: Yes. I asked the witness to deal with that matter. The
12 book we have deals with point Orlovci, of course.
13 JUDGE STEPHEN: I thought so, yes.
14 MR. KAY: He mentioned a number of other points which included the
15 bridge, but we have not quite tied that point up. It does only
16 affect two days from the evidence.
17 JUDGE STEPHEN: Yes.
18 DJURO PRPOS, recalled.
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Prpos, were you able to bring with you
20 Exhibits 63, 64, 65, 66, 75 and 77, at least the documents that
21 constitute those Exhibits in their complete form?
22 THE WITNESS [In translation]: No, I have not managed to do that, but
23 I have conveyed the request to Mr. Mile Jankovic who is
24 responsible. I spoke to him on the phone and I met with him
25 this morning. It is now up to him to try to provide what is
27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you, Mr. Prpos. Mr. Kay, is it possible
28 for you to speak with that gentleman and tell him that the Trial
1 Chamber has requested the complete documents?
2 MR. KAY: Your Honour, these requests have already been made by the
3 Defence in Banja Luka. I have spoken to Professor Wladimiroff
4 this morning. The information I have been given is that it has
5 to go beyond Mr. Jankovic to a higher authority. Quite what
6 that authority is, we do not know and have not been told. But
7 there seems to be a note of optimism that the records will be
8 provided later on in the day.
9 I know that Mr. Keegan has spoken to the Prosecution
10 team about this matter, as I believe he has also been party to
11 the negotiations, if I can put it that way.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will see then if we are able to get other
13 than what the individual wants us to have. That is our desire
14 to get the complete documents. OK. Fine. You will report back
15 to me and I suppose, Miss Hollis, if you have been in touch with
16 Mr. Keegan, then you will have some input regarding that effort
17 as well.
18 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour. Another possibility for that could
19 be to convey the request to Mr. Neskovic who, I believe, is the
20 deputy Minister of Justice and we have made other requests for
21 information through our officials to him.
22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I understand that both the Prosecution and the
23 Defence have faced difficulties in terms of access to witnesses
24 and documents. So, we will do what we can do to get the
25 documents. A letter or a summons, a subpoena of some sort,
26 would that help?
27 MISS HOLLIS: I think that would be helpful if we are going to deal
28 with Mr. Neskovic or anyone below him, your Honour. They have
1 specifically told us that the procedure they want is something
2 in writing to them, specifying what is being requested.
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. If you will then file a motion to that
4 effect requesting the Trial Chamber to make the request and
5 indicate to whom the request should be directed and whether it
6 should be in the form of a summons, and what is requested, then
7 it will be easier for us to proceed.
8 You have no objection, Mr. Kay, to that?
9 MR. KAY: Absolutely not.
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Very good. Thank you. Miss Hollis, you
11 may continue cross-examination.
12 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour.
13 Cross-examined by MISS HOLLIS, continued.
14 Q. Mr. Prpos, Mile Jankovic, what is his current position with the
15 opstina Prijedor police?
16 A. He is Commander of the traffic police.
17 Q. Is Mile his nickname or is that his proper first name?
18 A. His name.
19 Q. What is Mr. Jankovic's ethnic group?
20 A. Serb.
21 Q. Did he hold any position in the opstina Prijedor police
22 department in 1992?
23 A. No.
24 Q. When did he join the opstina Prijedor police department?
25 A. After the take over of authority in 1992. He was later my
27 Q. So in 1992 after the takeover he was your deputy in the traffic
28 section of opstina Prijedor police department?
1 A. Yes, somewhere in August, 1992.
2 Q. Mr. Prpos, yesterday I asked you whether in 1992 you had known a
3 soldier named Zoran Karlica. I am afraid because of my poor
4 pronunciation that name may have been translated to you as Zoran
5 Karajica. So I would like to repeat the question to you. In
6 1992 did you know a soldier named Zoran Karlica which is spelled
7 K-A-R-L-I-C-A ?
8 A. Yes, I have heard of him, but I did not know him personally,
9 with that surname, a man with that name.
10 Q. So you, to your knowledge, would not have had any meetings with
11 him in the spring of 1992 prior to the Serb takeover of
13 A. Never.
14 Q. In your testimony yesterday you were talking about reserve
15 policemen who were serving duty in the summer of 1992. You
16 testified that all reserve policemen were performing their
17 duties under a mobilization that had taken place before the
18 conflict. When did that mobilization take place that you
19 referred to?
20 A. The mobilization of the reserve police was carried out long
21 before the conflict, while the Ministry for the Internal Affairs
22 at the level of Bosnia-Herzegovina was still operating. At that
23 time the reserve force included members of Muslim ethnic origin.
24 Q. So what would have been the month and year of this mobilization,
25 if you remember?
26 A. I cannot remember exactly, but it was in 1991 that the
27 mobilization was carried out.
28 Q. Was this a general mobilization in about September 1991?
1 A. No, it was not a general mobilization, but only due to increased
2 requirements of the service, the reserve militia (as it was
3 called at the time) was mobilized.
4 Q. The area of Omarska is part of opstina Prijedor, is that not
6 A. Yes, I was born in the immediate vicinity there.
7 Q. During the period May to December of 1992, did you have any
8 traffic police locations there?
9 A. No, except for the checkpoints that I have already listed.
10 Q. Were some of those checkpoints close to the Omarska village and
12 A. No, the closest one was the checkpoint at Orlovci.
13 Q. During the period May to December 1992, did any of your traffic
14 policemen come from Omarska?
15 A. Not one of them, from Omarska, not one.
16 Q. I would like to ask you now about the documents that you were
17 shown yesterday. You were shown Defence Exhibits 63, 64 and 65,
18 which were timetables of shifts for June, July and August.
19 I believe you testified that you yourself did not fill in the
20 information on those timetables, is that correct?
21 A. That is correct, that is not my job. It is the job of the
22 policemen who is -- whose responsibility it is, but he did so
23 entering information on the basis of a timetable of duty that
24 I authorised.
25 Q. The gentleman you are referring to is Zoran Cvijic, is that
27 A. Yes, Zoran Cvijic.
28 Q. Would you be present when he actually compiled these documents,
1 these timetables?
2 A. No, I was not present, but I found time to check them out
3 occasionally, and at the end the list is concluded.
4 Q. Zoran Cvijic's duties kept him in the office most of the time,
5 is that correct?
6 A. Mostly, yes, he spent most of his time in the office. That is
7 his job.
8 Q. You were also shown Defence Exhibit 66 which was the official
9 duty plan. Again I believe that you yourself did not make the
10 entries in that duty plan, is that correct?
11 A. Yes, I would fill in the duty plan at the beginning because, as
12 you can see, this existed all along from 1991. While I was the
13 deputy, I filled it in personally, but later because of my
14 greater responsibilities, then Cvijic filled it in under my
15 supervision, of course.
16 Q. For the dates, 15 June, 16, 17, 18, 19 June, 2 August, 3 August,
17 it was Zoran Cvijic who filled those entries in?
18 A. Yes. Yes.
19 Q. For the dates between 19th ----
20 A. I apologise.
21 Q. Yes?
22 A. I want to clarify this point. After that duty plan there was
23 another timetable that was typewritten which was certified by my
24 signature, exhibited on the billboard for the policemen to be
25 able to see and only then was it considered final.
26 Q. This final timetable no longer exists, is that correct?
27 A. As far as I know, it does not exist in the station.
28 Q. These timetables that we spoke of, Defence Exhibits 63, 64 and
1 65, did you keep the originals of those timetables in your
2 personal custody from the time they were created until the
4 A. Yes, the original still exists, this book of schedules from
5 1991, this book is in existence, and there is a list which is a
6 permanent document which has to be kept permanently, though the
7 other document need not necessarily be preserved, but it has
8 been preserved.
9 Q. But did you yourself keep these documents in your own custody
10 during that period of time?
11 A. The documents are kept in a safe in the station, and policeman
12 Cvijic Zoran is responsible for keeping custody of those
14 Q. Defence Exhibit 66, is that a document which is also maintained
15 at the police department?
16 A. Could you please explain which document you are referring to?
17 If you are talking about the payments of personal incomes, then
18 I can answer that.
19 Q. No, I was talking about Defence Exhibit 66 which is the official
20 duty plan. Did you keep that document in ----
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you keep that document in your personal custody?
23 A. No, I personally do not keep it in custody. I have just said
24 that it is in a safe kept by the policeman responsible for
25 keeping records.
26 Q. You were also shown two pages that were marked "Defence Exhibit
27 75", and these two pages had to do with a list of reserve
28 policemen. I believe you indicated you did not prepare those
1 two pages, is that correct?
2 A. I am afraid I do not quite understand which documents you are
3 referring to. If it is a list of workers for whom payment of
4 income is due, then I know what I am being asked.
5 Q. If I could ask, please, that the witness be shown Defence
6 Exhibit 75?
7 A. I have the Exhibit in front of me. It is a list of members of
8 the reserve police in June and it refers to the payment of
9 personal incomes for that month. The document was written in
10 the station and it bears my signature, typed, typewritten, but
11 as I was absent at that moment it was signed by my superior. It
12 is the first document.
13 Q. Look at the second page as well and my question is, did you
14 prepare either of these two pages?
15 A. I did prepare the second page and it bears my original
17 Q. The first page?
18 A. I just said that the first page was written in the station of
19 which I was the Commander, but it was signed by my superior who
20 was the only one authorised to sign it. It refers simply to the
21 payment of personal incomes for policemen, and because I was
22 absent and it was urgent he signed it on my behalf.
23 Q. The second page that has your signature, did you yourself
24 actually type that information in that page or did you sign the
25 document after someone else prepared it?
26 A. I just signed it. The typing is done by the typist working in
27 the police station.
28 Q. You were also shown Defence Exhibit 77 which you, I believe,
1 indicated was a document that would have come from the
2 accounting department?
3 A. Yes, it is a joint document with a list of members of all
4 policemen in the public security station. This can be seen from
5 this RSM. This is the station of the reserve force from 130 to
6 139, and the numbers above in which Dusko Tadic is included is a
7 list of my station. This is from the accounting service of the
8 public security station.
9 Q. So each of these RSMs indicate different stations?
10 A. Yes, exactly. This should not confuse you -- I beg your pardon
11 -- because this list and the previous lists are prepared in the
12 accounting department, but the payment of salaries is carried
13 out on the basis of signatures. Every station has to provide a
14 list to the accounting department and then the accounting
15 department draws up this kind of list.
16 Q. Were you present when Defence Exhibit 77 was prepared?
17 A. I was not present when this Exhibit was prepared as this list is
18 not part of my duties.
19 Q. Did you keep the original of this list in your personal custody
20 from the time it was created?
21 A. All documents are kept in a safe of the police station.
22 Q. Can you tell us if there is any significance to the numbers that
23 appear in column 1?
24 A. I am sorry, I did not understand the question.
25 Q. Yes. You see that there are numbers beginning with 116 and
26 going numerically down the page; do you know if there is any
27 significance to those numbers?
28 A. This is simply a series of names of policemen figuring on the
1 joint list. Dusko Tadic is under the number 128. The numbers
2 above him belong to the traffic police station. The numbers
3 from 130 refer to one of the police stations covered by the
4 public security department which included several stations.
5 This is the list comprising all members receiving salaries,
6 because the accounting is common for the entire public security
8 Q. Do you know why some of those numbers are circled, for example,
9 116, 117, 127? Do you know why those circles are around those
10 particular numbers?
11 A. I assume that policemen could come to pick up their salaries
12 personally to the accounting department, and then the
13 responsible accountant encircled the number to know that
14 somebody had already picked up his salary; or there were cases
15 that a policeman working on the records would pick up the whole
16 sum of salaries for the whole station and he would sign that he
17 had picked up the salary for all his workers. So that I assume
18 that this encircling meant that people, these particular people,
19 had picked up their salaries in the accounting department
21 Q. The column 5 on this form, can you tell us what information
22 would go in column 5?
23 A. I cannot tell with certainty because I do not have the
24 beginning, the first page, but perhaps if I could look at this
25 record from the police station?
26 Q. Can you tell us what you are looking at, please?
27 A. One might say that No. 1 is the number, second, name, third,
28 where he worked, (4) number of days, (5) work organisations, (6)
1 amount and (7) signature, if we look at document No. 2 with the
2 headings of the columns.
3 Q. Are you talking about Defence Exhibit 75, the listing of members
4 of the reserve police? Is that the document you are looking at?
5 A. Yes, that document can also be used, but on that document there
6 is no column to indicate where the policemen were working,
7 because some of those reserve policemen were employed, but they
8 responded to the obligation of mobilization and they worked as
9 traffic policemen. This information can be found on document
10 No. 2.
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Prpos. Can you tell us, please, what was the
12 distance from the Orlovci checkpoint to the Omarska detention
14 A. As far as the Omarska crossroads, the distance from Prijedor is
15 25 kilometres or, rather, 22 and a half, and to Orlovci, four to
16 five kilometres. So that makes it 17, and from the crossroads
17 to Omarska, three, and that makes it about 20 kilometres.
18 Q. So from Orlovci checkpoint to the detention camp at Omarska was
19 about 20 kilometres?
20 A. Roughly about 20 kilometres.
21 Q. Did you ever drive from the Orlovci checkpoint to the Omarska
23 A. I did on one occasion when a deputy of the Republika Srpska,
24 Vojo Kupresanin, took his colleague, a Muslim -- I cannot
25 recollect the name of that deputy -- he took him out of the camp
26 and to Banja Luka.
27 Q. When was this that you went to the Omarska detention camp?
28 A. I do not remember the exact date, but on that particular
1 occasion I accompanied deputy Kupresanin to the camp, and when
2 he took over the deputy of Muslim ethnicity, I accompanied them
3 to the crossroads of the main road from where they went on to
4 Banja Luka.
5 Q. Can you tell us what month it was that you went to the camp?
6 A. I cannot recollect just now what month it was; I just know that
7 it was the one occasion I went there and never again. I just
8 remembered the name -- Semenovic.
9 Q. When you arrived at the camp who met you at the camp?
10 A. I went as far as the gate and then I did not go any further.
11 Q. Did you know any of the guards at the gate when you arrived at
12 the gate?
13 A. I cannot remember any one of them now.
14 Q. You cannot remember them or you did not know their names?
15 A. I knew them by sight, but I am not very good at names, I am
17 Q. I believe you indicated that the man who was taken from the camp
18 was Semenovic, is that correct?
19 A. Yes, that is right, I remembered.
20 Q. Who else was in this delegation that went to the camp on that
22 A. Just the driver and the deputy, Vojo Kupresanin.
23 Q. Do you remember the driver's name?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you have a driver that day?
26 A. No, I drove personally.
27 Q. What vehicle did you drive there? What type of vehicle?
28 A. It is a police vehicle which I drove usually myself at that
2 Q. It is one of the white and blue police vehicles?
3 A. Yes, blue and white with the alarm signals on it.
4 Q. Was that a Golf type vehicle?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Concerning your visits to the checkpoints, were there not some
7 days that you were too busy to go to all of the checkpoints for
8 each shift?
9 A. That was my only task ----
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, I do not recall, would you ask the
11 witness how many checkpoints were under his direction? I do not
12 remember. I also had some questions about Defence 75, but
13 I will ask him at some point.
14 MISS HOLLIS: Mr. Prpos, can you hear me again? We cannot hear you,
15 I am afraid.
16 THE WITNESS: I can hear you fine.
17 MISS HOLLIS: Good. Now we can hear you as well.
18 Q. Could you tell us, please, how many checkpoints were you
19 responsible for in the summer of 1992?
20 A. For four checkpoints, Orlovci, Crna Dolina, Trinaesta and Most
21 Na Sani.
22 Q. When you went to these checkpoints, how long would you remain at
23 the checkpoint?
24 A. Depending on necessity, half an hour, an hour, depending on the
25 subject matter involved at the checkpoint, and I tried to be
26 with policemen as much as possible.
27 Q. On 17th June, can you tell us which checkpoint you visited first
28 on that date?
1 A. I really would not know, because I wanted to have a surprise
2 factor involved and to check on the policemen so I would always
3 change their turns. So sometimes I would go direct, sometimes
4 I would make an entire circle. I would change the time when
5 I would come in so the policemen never knew when I would come at
6 what time and in which order.
7 Q. So, can you remember the time that you arrived at the first
8 checkpoint on 17th June?
9 A. No, I cannot.
10 Q. Can you remember how long you stayed at that first checkpoint on
11 that date?
12 A. No, it is impossible to remember now after all this time, and
13 the situation was such in those days, and there were so many
14 things to do, and I really cannot remember all of that now.
15 Q. So you would not remember what time it was you went to Dule
16 Tadic's checkpoint when he was on duty on 17th June?
17 A. I could not remember.
18 Q. Do you remember how long you would have stayed at his checkpoint
19 when you went there on 17th June?
20 A. No.
21 Q. I would like to ask you some questions about your activities
22 during the time period May to December 1992. During that time
23 were you involved in any Serb attacks on non-Serb towns or
24 villages in opstina Prijedor?
25 A. No.
26 Q. Were you involved in the takeover of any non-Serb towns or
27 villages in opstina Prijedor?
28 A. No. I want to say now you asked me last time whether I knew
1 that takeover of power was being prepared. I said that I did
2 not know, because my first wife is of Croat nationality and
3 I have two children with her. Regrettably, she died in 1989.
4 Q. Sir, in fact, you knew about the plan for the takeover in
5 opstina Prijedor and you participated in this planning and you
6 benefited from it, is that not correct?
7 A. I did not know until that moment before the immediate takeover
8 -- that is exactly what I told you yesterday -- but immediately
9 I decided what side I would take because my neighbours, Croats
10 and Muslims, opened my eyes and I had no dilemmas.
11 Q. I have asked you about whether you were involved in Serb attacks
12 and takeovers of villages in opstina Prijedor. Were you aware
13 of such attacks and takeovers?
14 A. I did not participate in that nor did I know about such attacks.
15 Q. Did you take part in any looting of non-Serb property in opstina
17 A. No.
18 Q. Were you aware that ----
19 A. You can be assured by the property I have now, that is a Lada
20 vehicle, car, of 1977.
21 Q. Were you aware that such looting was occurring?
22 A. I saw it, like in any war that was present too.
23 Q. When you saw it how did you react to it?
24 A. Within the scope of my possibilities and authority, I tried to
25 prevent it, and that was the function of the checkpoints that
26 were established.
27 Q. The people who were doing this looting, did you know any of
1 A. No, I did not know them.
2 Q. This looting that you saw, where was it occurring?
3 A. Like everywhere in the zones where there were war operations.
4 Q. Do you recall the specific locations where you saw people
5 looting? Was it in the town of Prijedor? Was it in the village
6 of Orlovci? Do you recall those locations?
7 A. There were such things, wherever property is not under control,
8 looting happens under normal conditions, let alone in the chaos
9 that occurred then.
10 Q. When you saw this looting what was being stolen?
11 A. It was mostly vehicles that we would then take at the checkpoint
12 when we would check these vehicles. This was the task of the
13 policemen. If vehicles were driven by people who were not their
14 owners, they were taken away from them.
15 Q. So if a person came to a checkpoint, was driving a vehicle he
16 did not own, that vehicle was immediately taken from him, is
17 that correct?
18 A. Yes, if he could not prove the origin of the vehicle, perhaps he
19 had purchased the vehicle earlier and he did not manage to
20 transfer it into his own name yet. So such vehicles were taken
21 away and then through appropriate proceedings, if he managed to
22 prove that it was his vehicle, then the vehicle would be
23 returned to that person.
24 Q. During this same time period I was talking about, May to
25 December 1992, did you take part in any killings or beatings of
26 non-Serb civilians in opstina Prijedor?
27 A. No, I wish to say here that my competences are quite clear. My
28 authority was to control traffic in the area of Prijedor, and I
1 and my policemen did not do anything beyond that, that is to
2 say, to ensure that traffic takes place in an unhindered manner
3 and that we exercise control over participants in traffic as
4 well as over freight that was being transported in that traffic.
5 Q. Were you aware that such beatings and killings were occurring,
6 were you not?
7 A. No.
8 Q. In fact, was the Prijedor police department not extensively
9 involved in setting up and guarding camps that were established
10 in the opstina in 1992?
11 A. Yes, but that was under the authority of others, not within my
12 scope of authority.
13 Q. The Prijedor police department was involved in rounding up
14 people and taking them to the camps, was it not?
15 A. You have to ask the heads of those police departments. I am
16 responsible for the things I did and the policemen whose
17 Commander I was.
18 Q. You indicated that your responsibilities were to control
19 traffic, to control the roads, is that correct?
20 A. Yes, that is correct.
21 Q. As head of the traffic section, you must have been involved in
22 meetings with other section heads and higher authorities in the
23 police department, were you not?
24 A. Yes, such co-ordination has to exist. There is a leader who
25 co-ordinates all these activities.
26 Q. These meetings would have been held on a regular basis, would
27 they not?
28 A. Depending on possibilities, because the situation was such that
1 sometimes there could not be meetings because of all these
2 things that were happening and the blockade that we were in
3 until the corridor was established. You can understand the
4 situation that we were in.
5 Q. Which corridor are you talking about?
6 A. The corridor towards mainstream Serbia.
7 Q. You mean the Republic of Serbia?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. These meetings that ----
10 A. Because we were ----
11 Q. --- you attended, at these meetings issues that were relevant to
12 the police would have been discussed, would they not, issues and
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You indicated that these meetings were for co-ordination so
16 information would have been shared when it would have impacted
17 other sections, is that not correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So you would have been told about events that would affect
20 traffic flow and checkpoints, would you not?
21 A. Yes, for what I was responsible, that is to say, primarily
22 ensuring a normal flow of traffic and the functioning of normal
23 city life, and control over the observance of regulations,
24 traffic regulations, that were taken over from the former
25 Yugoslavia, and we act in accordance with them until the present
26 day, as far as traffic is concerned.
27 Q. So you would have been told when bus loads of prisoners were
28 being taken from camp to camp, would you not?
1 A. No.
2 Q. You would have been told when convoys of Muslims were being
3 forcibly removed from the opstina, would you not?
4 A. As far as I know, they were not forcibly removed. They went of
5 their own free will. I am trying to say that a long time before
6 the war a lot of Muslims removed their families from there,
7 including the Commander with whom I exchanged apartments at his
8 initiative because he was alone in a three room apartment and I
9 with five family members was in a two room apartment. So a lot
10 before these events took place, they shipped their families out
11 of Prijedor, which is to say that they knew what would happen
12 during the war. Even when they went then, they went voluntarily
13 because they applied to the Red Cross and they went in that way,
14 not forcibly.
15 Q. So, Mr. Prpos, is it your testimony that the thousands of
16 Muslims who left opstina Prijedor between May and December 1992
17 did so purely voluntarily? Is that your testimony?
18 A. That is true, and also what I said that many people went before
19 the war voluntarily because living conditions were such that
20 whoever had any possibility to leave actually did leave, because
21 it is only a few days ago that we got a regular supply of
22 electricity, not to speak of other normal needs of any person.
23 Q. In your position, as head of the traffic section, between May
24 and December 1992, you would have been alerted to the daily
25 movement of interrogators to Omarska and other camps, would you
27 A. They went through the Orlovci checkpoint.
28 Q. So you were aware of those movements?
1 A. Well, I was, and the policemen at the checkpoint did.
2 Q. You would have been told when bus loads of prisoners from
3 cleansed Muslims villages were being taken to camps, would you
5 A. I do not know what kind of cleansing you are talking about.
6 Q. When the Muslims were forced to leave their homes and taken in
7 buses to camps, you would have been told about those bus loads
8 who were traversing your roads, would you not?
9 A. Policemen at the checkpoint knew about such cases, but I repeat
10 again, it was not a question of forcible removal. This was
11 organised by the Prijedor Red Cross, and the police only
12 provided safe passage to these convoys which is a normal thing
13 to do for policemen from any police station.
14 Q. Was it the Red Cross who organised the camp at Omarska and the
15 camp at Keraterm? These were Red Cross camps?
16 A. I am not aware of that, but I do not think that the Red Cross
17 did that.
18 Q. All of these movements on the roads in opstina Prijedor, you
19 would have been told about those movements ahead of time, would
20 you not, so you could alert your personnel about what was
22 A. Well, policemen at checkpoints had strict instructions what
23 their task was to do at checkpoints, that is to say, they had
24 certain instructions, and normally when they would stop a
25 vehicle they would assure themselves of what was going on, and
26 then these vehicles would continue their travel or they would be
27 detained there depending on the actual situation.
28 Q. Some of these buses that were taking people from villages came
1 to the SUP at which you worked, did they not?
2 A. No, buses did not come to SUP. Even if they did come there,
3 I cannot claim that because my job was not directly linked to
4 SUP only because I had to work on the ground and go to different
6 Q. But you were certainly at the SUP from time to time, were you
8 A. Yes, that is true.
9 Q. In fact, when buses came to the SUP some Muslim prisoners were
10 taken off those buses at the SUP, were they not?
11 A. I said that I am not aware of such buses coming to SUP. I do
12 not know about it, but I do not preclude the possibility of them
13 having come there while I was not there.
14 Q. So you do not recall any occasion when you were at the SUP and
15 prisoners were brought there and beaten at the SUP, is that
17 A. No.
18 Q. You do not recall any occasion, for example, between 24th and
19 28th May 1992, when you were at the SUP and saw prisoners come
20 to the SUP?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You do not recall any occasions, say, between 24th and 28th May
23 1992, when after these prisoners were brought to the SUP you
24 heard their screams and cries as they were beaten there?
25 A. No.
26 Q. You are not aware of any of that type of activity, is that
28 A. No.
1 MISS HOLLIS: No further questions, your Honour.
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
3 Re-Examined by MR. KAY
4 Q. Mr. Prpos, I have a few questions for you in re-examination:
5 you were asked about the salary documents. Do you recollect
7 A. Yes, I recollect that.
8 Q. They have been given a label in Court as D74, 75 and 77. First
9 of all, if D74 can be put in front of you -- sorry, D75
10 actually. My apologies.
11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Prpos, it will be Defence Exhibit 75, two
12 pages, and then Defence Exhibit 77, one page.
13 MR. KAY: Yes. It is the salary list of 1992.
14 A. I have that list in front of me.
15 Q. You were asked whether this document would remain within your
16 custody. In your duties as a police officer over the last 20
17 years, would it be possible for you to keep all the documents
18 that you had ever been involved with actually within your
19 physical custody?
20 A. That is never possible, because the very fact that after
21 changing the duty I am actually involved in, I do not have
22 access to the records that are in the traffic department of the
23 police station. That is to say, that all archives have to be
24 kept in the safe of that police station, depending on the period
25 involved. So not a single policeman can personally take that
26 home. This is kept in a safe and everyone is responsible for a
27 certain part of a document.
28 Q. So, does the police station then have a system for keeping
1 documents that are created during the administration of the
2 police station so that they are kept in a safe place?
3 A. Yes, there are exact instructions from the Ministry of the
4 Interior for every document. It says how it is to be kept safe,
5 and there is also a list of lasting, durable goods that have to
6 be kept in a station. So these lists and schedules are of a
7 periodical nature though, so they do not have to be kept
9 Q. This document that we are looking at as D75, is there any reason
10 to believe that it is unusual or not created properly in the
11 usual course of the administration of the police station?
12 A. There is no doubt because it is only natural that a typist would
13 type this out on the basis of the records that are kept in the
14 police station, and it is signed by the head of that station and
15 also there is a seal affixed to it, as you can see.
16 Q. I would like to ask you the same question about the second page
17 of D75, that is the next document. Again, is there anything
18 about this document that makes you think that it is unusual or
19 different from what the document should be if created in the
20 usual course of administration of that police station?
21 A. There is no difference and there is nothing strange about it.
22 This document has my original signature though, and perhaps it
23 may be a bit misleading that on this first paper it was signed
24 by my superior because probably I was away, and because of the
25 urgency of having salaries paid out he signed the document
26 instead of me.
27 Q. Looking at the other salary Exhibit, D77, if that could be
28 placed in front of you? That is the document with the figure
1 "4" at the top of the page. I will ask the same question about
2 this document.
3 A. I have it in front of me.
4 Q. Is there anything unusual about this document ----
5 A. Also ----
6 Q. --- that makes you believe that it was not ----
7 A. --- there is nothing unusual.
8 Q. Thank you. You were asked about the typist. I mean, do you
9 know who the typist would be for any of these documents?
10 A. I remember that it was Anka and I cannot remember her surname.
11 Q. Did she have a job as a typist to type down the information that
12 was given to her on the forms that we have seen?
13 A. Yes, she was the typist in the station, and she was engaged
14 because she had already retired before that, but she had been
15 working as a typist for a long time. So she was called back to
16 work at the station because there was a shortage of typists.
17 Before that, there was a Muslim lady, Nadzija, who was there.
18 Q. Have you had any complaints of forgery by Zoran Cvijic who
19 created the schedule and wrote on the official duty plan? Have
20 there ever been any complaints that he has made up any of the
21 entries within those books?
22 A. No, never, especially with these lists of salaries that you
23 asked me about, you know that workers are the most sensitive in
24 that respect. So, as far as these lists are concerned and any
25 other documents that were processed by Zoran Cvijic, there were
26 never any objections.
27 Q. Are you able to tell us why it is that Zoran Cvijic will not
28 give evidence to the Tribunal here in The Hague?
1 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, I am going to object to that. That is
2 certainly going to be speculative on this witness's part.
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Prpos, excuse me one minute, would you take
4 your earphones off, please? Yes, Miss Hollis?
5 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour. We are going to object to that
6 certainly in the form that it is asked. It is not based on
7 hearsay but at this point in time it appears it would be purely
8 speculative on this witness's part. There is no indication that
9 the other witness or the other person has talked with him and
10 passed on this information.
11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, if the proper foundation is laid then.
12 MR. KAY: Yes, I think I can answer this question because ----
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Rather than you answering it, do you want to
14 ask the witness?
15 MR. KAY: I will ask if he has spoken to her.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK, very good.
17 MR. KAY: If you could put your headphones back on, please,
18 Mr. Prpos?
19 Q. Have you ever spoken to Mr. Zoran Cvijic about his reasons why
20 he will not give evidence before the Tribunal at the Hague?
21 A. I have during my contacts with the Defence when they were coming
23 Q. Were you aware of him being asked to give evidence either before
24 the Judges in The Hague in person or by video link from Banja
25 Luka to The Hague?
26 A. Yes, and as far as I know he said resolutely that he did not
27 want to appear either in Banja Luka or in The Hague.
28 Q. Was he requested on one occasion or more than one occasion to
1 give evidence in some form before the Tribunal?
2 A. On several occasions he was requested and I personally tried to
3 convince him of that, but he was categorical, and I did not want
4 -- I do not want to be the judge of that, why he does not want
5 to appear.
6 Q. Did he give an explanation to you as to particular problems that
7 he suffered from which caused him not to want to give evidence?
8 A. I believe that he justified that by health conditions. He
9 thought that he was unable to stand it.
10 Q. Are you aware if he has had any psychiatric problems that
11 excused him from any part of his mobilization?
12 A. No, all the time he was in the station and he fulfilled his
13 duties in terms of mobilization. He did have some trouble in
14 terms of nervousness, like any normal person during the time of
16 Q. Do you think you will be able to ask him again whether he will
17 co-operate and give evidence before the Tribunal?
18 A. I could, but I said that already on several occasions I tried to
19 convince him to do so, but he was categorical about it.
20 MR. KAY: Thank you. Thank you for dealing with that matter. You
21 mentioned amongst the checkpoints that came under the traffic
22 security one at the Sani. Is that at a bridge over the Sana
24 A. Yes.
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: While you are asking these questions ----
26 THE WITNESS: Yes.
27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: --- if he could use Prosecution Exhibit 280 and
28 point out the locations of the four checkpoints, I would
1 appreciate that. I wanted to ask him and now is a good point.
2 MR. KAY: Certainly, your Honour.
3 Q. First of all, the book we looked at that contained the
4 checkpoint Orlovci duty rosters, would that also have contained
5 in a separate part of the page the list of those who would have
6 been present for duty at the Sana River on, for instance, 2nd or
7 3rd August 1992?
8 A. Yes, exactly, each checkpoint had a number and it was on a
9 unified list for that day. In addition to activities at the
10 checkpoint, on the schedule there were other activities of the
11 police station.
12 Q. Thank you. You have now got Exhibit 280 in front of you. At
13 the request of the Court, I would like you to indicate to us
14 where the checkpoints were located by your traffic security
15 police. First of all, if you could identify where checkpoint
16 Orlovci was situated and if the camera can focus on to the
17 particular part of the map that you can point us to?
18 A. [The witness indicated]. The checkpoint Orlovci is on the part
19 of the Prijedor to Banja Luka main road, about four or five
20 kilometres from Prijedor. It is roughly here. [The witness
21 indicated]. It is about here.
22 Q. Can the monitor be taken back a bit or moved across so that we
23 can see where the pointer is on the map? If you could put your
24 pointer back to the place on the map and hold it there for 10
25 seconds at the point of checkpoint Orlovci? Could we focus in
26 on where the pointer is on the map? If we can go close into the
28 A. [The witness indicated].
1 Q. Can the monitor be taken into where the red biro is?
2 JUDGE STEPHEN: We can see.
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think that will be the best we can see.
4 MR. KAY: I know your Honours were concerned as to the mixture of the
5 roads at this point.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You can ask him if it is on the main road.
7 That might resolve that. The others we have not seen at all.
8 MR. KAY: We can see the point 83 and where the roads are. Thank you
9 very much, Mr. Prpos. If the monitor can be taken back? If you
10 could indicate to us the positions of the other checkpoints
11 around Prijedor that were under your control?
12 A. The next checkpoint is the Crna Dolina or Black Valley
13 checkpoint on a part of the main road in the direction of
14 Kozarska Dubica. It is somewhere here.
15 Q. Can you keep your pen on the spot so that we can see exactly?
16 Near that point of 183 -- 163, thank you.
17 A. [The witness indicated].
18 Q. If you could show us the site of the next checkpoint? Perhaps
19 the monitor can come back again?
20 A. The next checkpoint is the so-called Trinaesta or the Thirteenth
21 on the main road Prijedor to Novi Grad.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Just one moment. Is it on the ----
24 THE WITNESS: And the next checkpoint was the bridge on the Sana.
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Let us go back. Is it on the yellow road there
26 or the red road?
27 MR. KAY: Is the checkpoint point on the way to Bosanski Novi,
28 I think it was, Bosanski Novi is that road, on the main road, on
1 the red road?
2 A. Yes, on the main road, at the crossroads with the yellow road.
3 Q. Thank you. If you could be so kind to show us again where the
4 checkpoint is for the Sana River?
5 A. It is the bridge linking the main road from Prijedor to Sanski
6 Most crossing the Sana River here.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 A. I would also like to say that there was a checkpoint at
9 Gomjenica on the road from Prijedor to Tomasica. It is also on
10 the Gomjenica river which flows into the Sana here. This
11 checkpoint functioned occasionally from time to time depending
12 on circumstances.
13 Q. Again is that on the red road on the map across the other side
14 of the river from Tukovi?
15 A. Yes, the red road. It is in the direction of Gomjenica. The
16 settlement is called Gomjenica, and it is this bridge here where
17 the river Gomjenica flows into the River Sana.
18 Q. Thank you. Does that deal with the matters for your Honours?
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you, Mr. Kay.
20 MR. KAY: Your Honour, that is all I ask and I note the time.
21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis?
22 MISS HOLLIS: Nothing further, your Honour.
23 Examined by the Court
24 JUDGE STEPHEN: Mr. Prpos, one question: after you had on your daily
25 checks of whether or not your police were vigilant and in
26 attention at the checkpoints, after you had made one visit to a
27 checkpoint, were the police there confident that you would not
28 appear again that day or did you sometimes make two visits? In
1 other words, having been there once, could they be confident
2 that you would not return?
3 A. No, they could not be confident that I would not return because
4 I said at the beginning I changed the times. I chose different
5 times in order to surprise them so that they would never know
6 from what direction I would come to check on them. There were
7 cases that I would visit a certain checkpoint three times in one
8 day, depending on my assessment, whether it was necessary to
9 check on the quality of the work of the policemen there.
10 JUDGE STEPHEN: Thank you.
11 THE WITNESS: And that anyway is the purpose of a control service.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Prpos, would you ask that Defence 75 be
13 placed in front of you and 77, the accounting sheets?
14 A. I have the documents in front of me.
15 Q. Before I ask you about those, let me ask you about the four
16 checkpoints under your control. Were they manned 24 hours a
17 day? Mr. Prpos, we lost contact with you. So my question is
18 were those checkpoints, the four checkpoints under your control,
19 manned 24 hours a day?
20 A. Yes, all 24 hours. There was duty and the shifts were replaced
21 at the checkpoint itself.
22 Q. When you made these visits, I gather you never found that a
23 police officer was not on duty, is that correct?
24 A. During my tours there were never such cases.
25 Q. Defence 75, the first page, you have explained the columns on
26 that page. At the bottom, next to Mr. Tadic's name, on the
27 first page of 75, there is a number 16. Do you see that?
28 A. I do.
1 Q. What does that mean?
2 A. 16-30.
3 Q. Yes, it says "16-30."
4 A. It means -- it means that he worked from 16th June to 30th June,
5 a total of 13 days. It means he started working on 16th in the
6 police station for traffic security, and since a month has 30
7 days, that gives you the number 13.
8 Q. Are these forms supposed to indicate the number of days that a
9 person worked at the Orlovci checkpoint?
10 A. Not necessarily for Orlovci only. This list shows how many
11 policemen worked in that particular month because on the basis
12 of these lists they were paid incomes.
13 Q. But if ----
14 A. So, if we divide the amount with the number of days, we get what
15 the remuneration was for one day.
16 Q. But these lists would indicate the officers who worked at one of
17 the four checkpoints under your control, is that correct?
18 A. Not only at the checkpoints. For instance, in the particular
19 case of Dusko Tadic, it was just the Orlovci checkpoint, but it
20 applies to all the duties of policemen during the month. A
21 policeman may be working at other places, not necessarily at
22 checkpoints. He may have had other duties.
23 Q. Did you have any control over the Kozarac police station?
24 A. No.
25 Q. So time spent at the Kozarac police station would not be
26 reflected on these Exhibits 75 and 77, is that correct?
27 A. In this particular case of this list which belonged to the
28 traffic security police station, but the other list, No. 3, in
1 the public security station, there you have a list including
2 policemen from Kozarac.
3 Q. Yes. I was just talking about Exhibits 75 and 77. This is for
4 time spent under your control, is that correct?
5 A. Yes, that is correct. It applies exclusively to members of the
6 police force in my station.
7 Q. Then on the same page there is a number adjacent to that. What
8 is that number? A dinar amount?
9 A. It is the salary the person received for that part of the month.
10 Q. How much is it?
11 A. As far as I can see, 3,700.
12 Q. Is that based on the number of days worked that month?
13 A. Yes, on the basis of the No. 13, that is how this sum was
15 Q. Then turn to the next page of Exhibit 75. You see line 8,
16 "Tadic Dusko"? Is this for July?
17 A. Yes, I see.
18 Q. Is this for July 1992?
19 A. Most probably, but you cannot see the heading here, not even the
20 name of the police station of the traffic police. In the
21 process of copying it was probably missed out, but probably it
22 applies to July.
23 Q. Next to Mr. Tadic's name, at least on my copy, the number of
24 days and the dates served are blocked out. Is it on your copy
25 as well?
26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Prpos?
27 THE WITNESS: I can hear you.
28 Q. On the next page of 75 which you believe is July, is there an
1 indication of the number of days worked and the dates worked?
2 A. There is, only during copying probably the person above him
3 spent the same time working as he did, so that this is just
4 confirmed in the case of Dusko Tadic. There is a ditto sign, so
5 this is for the month of July. You can see compared to the
6 amount, if we compare this amount with the previous amount, then
7 we can see how many days. Here it is 9,300 and for 13 days he
8 got 3,700.
9 Q. So then Mr. Tadic worked the number of days that the person
10 above him worked?
11 A. Yes, precisely, the same number of days of the person above him
12 or maybe even two persons above him on the list.
13 Q. What was the rate per day?
14 A. It was not a daily rate, but at the end of the month or
15 sometimes it was -- the payments were delayed by two or three
16 months. It depended on the resources available at the time.
17 Q. So there was no set amount that a police officer was paid per
18 day or per month or per week?
19 A. It was determined after the month expired. I told you, when the
20 funds came in and then we could pay out personal incomes.
21 Q. How did you determine how much to pay out to a police officer?
22 A. This was determined by the Ministry of Internal Affairs of
23 Republika Srpska. There was a uniform rate for all policemen in
24 Republika Srpska. You can see that the list that we would send
25 from the police stations does not contain that sum. The sum was
26 determined in the accountancy department itself.
27 Q. Was that determined on a daily basis, on the number of days a
28 person worked or a weekly basis or a monthly rate, if you know?
1 A. It was determined on a daily basis, but this daily sum varied
2 from one month to another because of the differences in the
3 funds available in the Ministry, as I mentioned. So that the
4 salary was calculated on the basis of the number of days worked
5 but there was no fixed rate.
6 Q. Thank you. On the last page 77, Defence 77, would this ----
7 A. I have it.
8 Q. --- reflect the number of days that Mr. Tadic worked at the
9 Orlovci checkpoint in August?
10 A. No, not at the Orlovci checkpoint, but for that month. He left
11 my station on August 3rd. So this is a unified list on the
12 basis of which personal income was paid to Dusko Tadic and that
13 is 26 days in that month, including the three days he worked in
14 my station and in the other stations to which he was
15 transferred. This is a unified list of the accounting
16 department where all lists provided by individual police
17 stations came together and the accounts were made.
18 Q. Is this Defence 77 a different document than Defence 75? It
19 looks different at the top.
20 A. It is.
21 Q. OK.
22 A. It is different in so far that this is a document of a
23 particular police station, and document 77 is the document of
24 the accounting department in the public security centre because,
25 as I said, that public security centre had several police
26 stations under it, and this can be seen from the continuation of
27 this list when you go on to No. 130, it is another police
28 station, then 139, another reserve police station and so on.
1 Q. So then 75 would reflect that Mr. Tadic worked as a policeman
2 for the Republika Srpska for 26 days from January -- is that
3 correct? I mean, from August 1st to August 31st?
4 A. Yes, exactly. That is right.
5 Q. Mr. Prpos, do you recall testifying that at one point Mr. Tadic
6 served on the Sana River checkpoint?
7 A. No, I did not say that.
8 Q. So all of the time of Mr. Tadic's service under your control he
9 was at the Orlovci checkpoint?
10 A. Yes, but there is a list and on the last day that he spent in
11 the station there is mention of the bridge on the Sana which is
12 probably an error made after I had left that police station.
13 Q. Where is that indicated? That would be in 63, is it, that is
14 the 66, rather, or perhaps the spreadsheets? I am asking you,
15 Mr. Prpos, for help. Where is that indicated that there was
16 service at the Sana River?
17 A. It is a list which was given much earlier on by Commander Mile
18 Jankovic indicating days when he worked, and in one case this
19 last checkpoint of the bridge on the Sana is mentioned, but
20 according to the official documents of duty service and
21 timetables, this cannot be found.
22 Q. I am asking you to point to me where there is an indication that
23 he served on the Sana River assignment?
24 A. I do not have that list, but I saw it early on. We do not have
25 that list here.
26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, you had indicated you were going to
27 tie that up. Where does it come from. Maybe we can help
28 Mr. Prpos.
1 MR. KAY: I was indicating I could not tie that up as it had been
2 something that I had not been able to trace. But I think if
3 your Honour looks at 65A or B, depending upon which is the
4 better copy -- if 65A or B could be put in of in front of the
5 witness -- your Honour can see 1st August, the duty of 7 to 19?
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes.
7 MR. KAY: 2nd August, free.
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes.
9 MR. KAY: 3rd August, 7 to 19. If your Honour goes to the book D66,
10 1st August ----
11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, I have it.
12 MR. KAY: --- 7 to 19 which reflects the schedule we just looked at;
13 2nd August, "slobodni", free; 3rd August, not on for point
14 Orlovci which is why I asked ----
15 THE WITNESS: The police station, one can see if he had been in the
16 police station, he would have been listed among those free. So
17 that means that on 3rd August he was not in the police station.
18 MR. KAY: If I could ask a question, your Honour, to the witness ----
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes.
20 MR. KAY: --- because it may be I can help.
21 Further re-examined by MR. KAY
22 Q. In the page that we are looking at for 3rd August, Mr. Prpos --
23 if you could open it again to 3rd August -- we see point
24 Orlovci. On this page of the book, would there be the point for
25 the Sana River?
26 A. Yes, one would have to indicate all the checkpoints, Most Na
27 Sani, Trinaesta and Crna Dolina. So you see the difference for
28 checkpoints Orlovci from 7 to 19. The other checkpoints would
1 be listed too.
2 Q. If he was still under your control on 3rd August but not at
3 point Orlovci but at another checkpoint, could it be that we
4 would find that elsewhere on the page?
5 A. Yes, it would have to be indicated if he was engaged anywhere in
6 this police station. If he were free, then he would be listed
7 as free as you had occasion to see on other schedules and for
8 other days. Therefore, on August 3rd he was no longer on the
9 list of the police station for traffic security, according to
10 the duty schedule.
11 Q. Did you or did you cause to be supplied to the Defence just the
12 readings, though, for point Orlovci?
13 A. Yes, wherever Dusko Tadic's name appears.
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I think I understand where you are going.
15 Further examined by the Court
16 Q. Mr. Prpos, you indicated that you had seen somewhere, I believe,
17 that Mr. Tadic was assigned to the Sana River checkpoint, but
18 you believe that is a mistake, is that not so or not?
19 A. Most probably it was a mistake.
20 Q. OK. But it is possible that there is another sheet that the
21 Defence saw that we do not have in Defence 66A that would
22 indicate that he was assigned somewhere other than Orlovci on
23 August 3rd, because it does indicate on the spreadsheet that he
24 was working, is that correct, Mr. Kay?
25 MR. KAY: Your Honour is putting it right.
26 THE WITNESS: If I may look at the list?
27 MR. KAY: 65B, D65B.
28 THE WITNESS: Yes. It says here on 3rd August Dusko worked from 7 to
1 19, and that is the list that was given in the first contact by
2 the police station for traffic security and signed by Mile
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Where does this information come from, the
5 information on that spreadsheet you have before you?
6 A. I saw this list during first contacts when I was told that
7 I would be a witness in the case against Dusko Tadic.
8 Q. Where did the information come from that is put on that
10 A. It comes from the police station for traffic security and signed
11 by Mile Jankovic.
12 Q. Does it come from the duty roster book which you were looking at
13 earlier, Defence 66, or from somewhere else?
14 A. Probably it comes from the duty roster which is final, but that
15 information was given by Mile Jankovic and not me because I was
16 no longer in that station at the time, on the basis of records
17 which are left in the custody of the police station.
18 JUDGE STEPHEN: One further question: if, in fact, Dule Tadic left
19 the traffic police on or about 3rd August and went into the
20 ordinary police, his service during that time when he was in the
21 ordinary police would not appear in any of these records that we
22 are looking at, is that correct?
23 A. There are records of other police stations. That is the station
24 to which he was transferred. So there must be in the records of
25 that police station when he started working there.
26 Q. Yes, quite, but service in the ordinary police as distinct from
27 the traffic police would not appear on these particular sheets
28 we have been looking at with your help?
1 A. They would not, because these are documents of the police
2 station for traffic security that we are looking at.
3 JUDGE STEPHEN: Yes. Thank you.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Prpos, let me just follow up: Defence 77
5 would pick up the 26 days that Mr. Tadic worked, presumably one
6 two or perhaps three (as soon as we find out what happens to
7 August 3rd) with you and then the rest of the time in Kozarac
8 for a total of 26 days in August?
9 A. Yes, that is right.
10 MR. KAY: Your Honour, there is to be further evidence. Can I just
11 deal with one matter which may make this clear?
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes. It is clear now, but you may go ahead, of
14 Further re-examined by MR. KAY
15 Q. Mr. Prpos, can you go back to sheet 65B to the "remarks" column,
16 D65B, the sheet for August '92?
17 A. Just a moment, I do not have the document.
18 Q. The remarks ----
19 A. I have D65B.
20 Q. In the "remarks" column of column 7, if you can just read out
21 the remarks there against Dusko Tadic's name?
22 A. "Remarks" are there, yes. I apologise. I have the text in
23 English here. I need the Serbian. I have the document D65A
24 with the text in Serbian. Under "remarks" it says that -- the
25 copy is not parallel with the line, but if I go from the bottom
26 it is No. 3 and it says: "On 5th August '92 he was transferred
27 to the reserve police station centre 1 because of the needs of
28 the service", and my signature stands there.
1 Q. If you could tell us what reserve police centre 1 is?
2 A. It is the reserve police station centre 1. It is one of the
3 reserve police stations within the centre for public security of
4 Prijedor, among which was the police station for traffic
6 Q. If that indicates he was transferred there on 5th August and
7 continued working with the reserve police, is that why we would
8 see in the accountancy document his work stretching from
9 1st August to 31st August 1992?
10 A. Yes, and since the accountancy service is one for all, then it
11 has a single list covering the period from 1st to 31st August.
12 MR. KAY: Thank you very much. There is further evidence to come on
13 this matter, your Honour.
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. 65(B), the English, we had discovered
15 there was an error in the translation. It was August 3rd, we
16 have changed it to August 5th. Is that correct?
17 MR. KAY: Yes.
18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you recall that?
19 MR. KAY: I do not recall it, but mine is 5th August quite clearly on
20 the document.
21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Then maybe we have entered August 5th. Very
23 MR. KAY: The Serbian document is much clearer, your Honour, than the
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, do you have additional questions of
26 Mr. Prpos?
27 MR. KAY: No, I do not, thank you, your Honour.
28 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis?
1 MISS HOLLIS: Very briefly, your Honour.
2 Further cross-examined by MISS HOLLIS.
3 Q. Mr. Prpos, earlier I had asked you about whether you
4 participated in certain activities in opstina Prijedor during
5 the period May to December 1992. During the period May to
6 December 1992 and also 1993, were you involved in any thefts of
7 property in opstina Prijedor?
8 A. No, nor did I need that.
9 Q. Were you aware of any complaints against you for thefts of any
10 kind of property?
11 A. Never.
12 Q. Were you involved in any kinds of thefts of firewood or anything
13 like that?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Are you aware of any complaints that you stole firewood during
16 this time period?
17 A. Never.
18 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour.
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
20 MR. KAY: No, thank you, your Honour.
21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to the witness being
22 permanently excused?
23 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour, we do.
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Prpos, you are excused and you are free to
25 go home or to your office at this time. However, you may be
26 recalled as a witness so you should continue to make yourself
27 available to return to testify. You should keep in touch with
28 Mr. Wladimiroff. Mr. Wladimiroff will tell you if you have been
1 asked by the Tribunal to return for testimony. Will you do
3 THE WITNESS: I will. I am at your disposal, as necessary.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. Thank you, Mr. Prpos. Thank you for
5 coming. You are now excused. We will stand in recess for 20
7 THE WITNESS: You are welcome.
8 (The witness withdrew)
9 (12.05 p.m.)
10 (The Court adjourned for a short time)
11 (12.25 p.m.)
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I see Mr. Wladimiroff sitting there not in his
13 robe. Can you see? Lucky, very comfortable! Would you call
14 your next witness, please?
15 MISS DE BERTODANO: Yes, your Honour. The next witness is Mirko
17 MIRKO VUJANOVIC, called.
18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Marro, would you please administer the oath
19 to Mr. Vujanovic?
20 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak
21 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
22 (The witness was sworn)
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss de Bertodano?
24 Examined by MISS DE BERTODANO
25 Q. Witness, is your name Mirko Vujanovic?
26 A. Mirko Vujanovic.
27 Q. Do you live in Prijedor?
28 A. I do.
1 Q. Have you always lived in Prijedor?
2 A. No, not always.
3 Q. When did you start living there?
4 A. I started living there in 1980.
5 Q. What is your occupation?
6 A. Policeman.
7 Q. Which police force do you work in?
8 A. Police station Prijedor 1, Prijedor Jedan.
9 Q. What is your present job within the police?
10 A. Policeman for materiel, technical means and records.
11 Q. How long have you done that job for?
12 A. Since 1992.
13 Q. When in 1992 did you start that job?
14 A. Sometime around 1st May 1992.
15 Q. What sort of records are you in charge of in the course of your
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, how much time do you estimate for, is
18 it, Mr. Savic and for, is it, Mr. Budimir? They are new
19 witnesses on the list.
20 MR. KAY: Yes. Your Honour, Savic, I estimate, will take slightly
21 over half an hour perhaps. Budimir is not yet available and an
22 affidavit has been filed in relation to him today as well as
23 Savic. We have had to revise our order because of availability
24 of witnesses. I do not know if it would help the Court if
25 I just indicated what the order was now proposed to be?
26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We can, since we are waiting for the video to
27 come back on. Will Mr. Savic be the next witness?
28 MR. KAY: Yes. Savic would be next, then Reljic, then Smoljic, then
1 Samardija -- no, sorry, then Gajic -- there has been a change in
2 relation to that as well -- then Gajic, then Samardija and then
3 Budimir at the end.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Samardija will be before Budimir?
5 MR. KAY: Yes. Because, apparently, this room is very hot here.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Andic?
7 MR. KAY: Andic will not be called.
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So he will not be called. You indicated time
9 for Mr. Savic a little over half an hour or so. I put down half
10 an hour to an hour.
11 MR. KAY: Your Honour, apparently, the room is very hot in Banja Luka
12 where this is taking place and it can be uncomfortable for
13 certain people to remain in there.
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So is that the reason why you have changed the
16 MR. KAY: Yes. Reljic's age, your Honour may recollect, an affidavit
17 filed on his behalf.
18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: But you have him listed coming after Savic.
19 MR. KAY: Yes. We are trying to find a moment so he does not have to
20 wait all day.
21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You have him listed after Savic and that is 1.5
23 MR. KAY: Yes.
24 MISS DE BERTODANO: Mr. Vujanovic, can you hear me now?
25 A. I can hear you. I can hear you. I can hear you well.
26 Q. I will repeat the question that I asked before we were cut off.
27 What types of records are you in charge of in the course of your
1 A. Exclusively records related to police and police duties and
3 Q. Could the Exhibit which has been marked for identification as
4 D74 be shown to the witness, that is No. A1? Mr. Vujanovic,
5 I would ask you to look at a document and tell us whether you
6 recognise it?
7 A. I recognise it.
8 Q. Can you tell us what it is?
9 A. It is the work list that is kept in the police.
10 Q. What is the date on that record?
11 A. This document pertains to the month of August 1992.
12 Q. Whose handwriting appears on that document?
13 A. The handwriting is personally mine.
14 MISS DE BERTODANO: Your Honour, at this stage I would tender that
15 document as an Exhibit and ask that copies be given to your
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, objection?
18 MR. TIEGER: I think technically the foundation has not yet been
19 laid, but I imagine that would ultimately go to the weight so
20 I will not have any objection.
21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Defence 74 will be admitted.
22 MISS DE BERTODANO: Your Honour, if I could pass up to you both that
23 document and the translation of that document? Perhaps we could
24 mark them as 74A for the original and 74B for the English
26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 74A is in Bosnian, Serbo-Croatian.
27 MISS DE BERTODANO: Your Honour, yes.
28 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: And B is in English. The Prosecution has a
1 copy, I presume? OK. 74A and B will be admitted.
2 MISS DE BERTODANO: Mr. Vujanovic, can you tell us when you would
3 have written the information contained in that document?
4 A. The data that are entered into this document before the war,
5 during the war and after the war. I mean, the system of keeping
6 these records is the same. Data are entered a day behind. For
7 example, today you give data for the previous day, for
9 Q. So, this document would have been written during August 1992 and
10 for each date that we have on the document it would have been
11 filled in the day after that date, is that right?
12 A. That is right, yes, a day after that.
13 Q. Where did you get the information from that you put into this
15 A. The data entered into this document are based on the schedule
16 that is worked out by the Commander of the station.
17 Q. Who was the Commander of the station at this time?
18 A. Commander of the station at that time was Milutin ----
19 THE INTERPRETER: The English interpreter cannot hear the last name.
20 MISS DE BERTODANO: If you could repeat the name of the Commander,
21 Mr. Vujanovic?
22 A. Milutin Cadjo.
23 Q. Where would you find the copies of that schedule, the
24 information from which you would then put into this book?
25 A. After entering the data from the daily schedule into the work
26 list that I have before me, the schedules are kept for two years
27 at most while the work list remains as a permanent document. So
28 we do not have a copy of the document from which I took the data
1 that I entered into this document.
2 Q. Where would you see the schedule that you copied the list from
3 when you copied it?
4 A. The daily schedule is kept by the shift Commander, that is to
5 say, the leader of the shift who sends people to duty on that
6 particular day. The next day, the leader of the shift is
7 supposed to give the schedule to the Commander and then he has a
8 look at it and then gives it to me for further processing.
9 Q. Would this schedule that you copied the data from be signed by
11 A. Yes, it was signed by the Commander of the station.
12 Q. When would that daily schedule have been drawn up?
13 A. A daily schedule is being drawn up a day in advance.
14 Q. A day in advance of the hours worked?
15 A. Yes, today for tomorrow.
16 Q. If a policeman failed to turn up for work or was sick, would
17 that be noted on the daily schedule?
18 A. The leader of the shift would be duty bound to register this if
19 a policeman would not report to duty.
20 Q. Would that be registered on the schedule from which you copied
21 these duty books?
22 A. It should be registered there.
23 Q. If it was registered there that someone had failed to turn up,
24 would you write down the hours that they had originally been
25 scheduled to do next to their name?
26 A. No, I cannot enter those hours for a worker who was absent, who
27 did not come to work, and what measures were to be taken
28 further, that is up to the Commander. The Commander has to see
1 why this person did not show up for work.
2 Q. Did you have contact with the policemen whose duty schedules you
3 wrote up in this book?
4 A. I did not have any need to be in contact with them.
5 Q. Did you know Dusko Tadic?
6 A. I never knew him.
7 Q. Mr. Vujanovic, what I would like you to do for us is to take us
8 through the information on this schedule. You will see that
9 several of the names have been redacted from that list, but that
10 Dusko Tadic's name remains in full at No. 317. Do you see that?
11 A. I see it. I see it.
12 Q. Could you tell us then what words appear after Dusko's name and
13 under the dates from 1st to 6th August?
14 A. Could you please repeat your question? I did not quite
15 understand it.
16 Q. If you look to the columns which appear after the name of Dusko
17 Tadic, can you see that there are some words written across the
18 first six columns?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Could you tell us what those ----
21 A. I see it. I see it now.
22 Q. Could you tell us what those words are? Your Honour, I think
23 the witness has the English version in front of him and this
24 could be what is causing the confusion. If the witness could be
25 given the Serbo-Croat version of this document.
26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Marro, it should be Defence 74A that the
27 witness should have.
28 MR. MARRO: He has the correct one.
1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Is that in English or
3 MISS DE BERTODANO: It is document A1 if that is of any assistance.
4 MR. MARRO: It is in Serbo-Croatian.
5 MISS DE BERTODANO: Thank you. Mr. Vujanovic, could you now tell us
6 what words appear across the first six columns after Dusko
7 Tadic's name?
8 A. After the name of Dusko Tadic, Miroslav, Milisav, Boro, Simo,
9 Ljubisa, Mladen.
10 Q. Mr. Vujanovic I am looking to the right of the document, the
11 column which follows Dusko Tadic's name, all the way across the
12 page. Could we ask that ----
13 A. Worked -- I understand what you are asking now. Worked in the
14 police station for control of traffic before coming to police
15 station Prijedor 1, Prijedor Jedan.
16 Q. Does that mean that Mr. Tadic had been transferred from the
17 police station for the control of traffic to another post?
18 A. Precisely that. From the police station for traffic security he
19 was transferred to Prijedor 1, Prijedor Jedan.
20 Q. Can you tell us from that list on what day he first started
21 working at police station Prijedor 1?
22 A. The first working day was August 7th 1992.
23 Q. I would like you to tell us, if you can, what the figures that
24 are in that box for Dusko Tadic on August 7th 1992 mean. So if
25 we could start with the figures at the top of that box which,
26 I believe, is 06?
27 A. It is not 06. It is 0B, security service, sluzba obezbedjenja.
28 "OB" is the abbreviation used.
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Vujanovic. Does that indicate where Dusko Tadic
2 would have been working on that day?
3 A. Yes, it indicates the place where he worked and the kind of
4 service he was engaged in.
5 Q. Can you tell us from that document which place he worked and
6 what kind of service he was engaged in?
7 A. I can only tell you now that he was involved in security,
8 obezbedjenja. What facility, what building, that I cannot tell
9 you. He could have been involved in the security of the police
10 building itself, of Radio Prijedor or any other important
11 building. I cannot tell what security he was involved in on
12 that particular day.
13 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us what hours he worked on that day
14 from that document?
15 A. Please repeat your question because I did not fully understand
17 Q. Does that document indicate what hours Dusko Tadic worked on
18 7th August?
19 A. It does. It does indicate his working hours.
20 Q. Can you tell us ----
21 A. From 14 to 2200 hours.
22 Q. The 8 which is underneath the 14 to 22, what does that mean?
23 A. That is the total number of hours spent working that day.
24 Q. Mr. Vujanovic, I would like you to help us in the same way with
25 8th August. Can you tell us what Dusko Tadic's duties were then
26 from that list?
27 A. The same service as I said on the previous day, security, but
28 from 16 to 18 which means that he spent eight hours working that
2 Q. The numbers there were not clear to me; from which hour to which
3 hour was that?
4 A. From 6 to 14 hours.
5 Q. Thank you. With regard to 9th August, can you tell us where and
6 when he worked on that date?
7 A. Also security. I cannot tell. I do not know where he was
8 working from 6 to 1400 hours.
9 Q. In the next box under 10th August, the figures P(iv) appear.
10 Can you tell us what that means?
11 A. P(iv) -- there is no 1 -- it is P(iv).
12 Q. Does that indicate where he would have been working on that day?
13 A. It does. It does indicate the place where he was working.
14 Q. Where was that?
15 A. P is Pozorna sluzba. That is part of the city centre. It is
16 the area of the bus station and railway station of Prijedor.
17 Q. What does the (iv) mean?
18 A. Because in the city there are several such quarters, such parts,
19 of the city. This is the designation for one of these parts of
20 the city.
21 Q. So would I be correct in saying that P(iv) means that he was
22 working at the bus and railway station of Prijedor?
23 A. Yes, yes, on 10th he was at the railway station from 2100 to
24 6 a.m.
25 Q. That would be 6 a.m. on 11th?
26 A. Yes, yes.
27 Q. If you could read in the line underneath that which is marked
28 from 11th to 12th, what hours would Dusko be working that day
1 and in what place?
2 A. On the same day at the same working place, he worked at the same
3 -- in the same period from 21 hours to 6 a.m. that is to say,
4 from 11th to 12th August.
5 Q. On 12th August?
6 A. On 12th August he worked until 6 a.m. On the same day he worked
7 in the same area in the time period from 14 to 2100 hours.
8 Q. On 13th?
9 A. On 13th, on the same working place in the period from 14 to 2100
11 Q. The 14th?
12 A. For the 14th, in the same working place from 06 to 1400 hours.
13 Q. On the 15th?
14 A. The 15th, the same working place, in the period from 6 to 1400
16 Q. The 16th?
17 A. The 16th, in the same working place from 2100 to 6.00 a.m.
18 Q. Would that be to 6 a.m. on 17th?
19 A. Until 17th, 6 a.m.
20 Q. On 17th did he work again?
21 A. On 17th he also worked in the same working place from 2100 to
22 6 a.m. on 18th, that is, between 17th and 18th.
23 Q. On 18th did he work again?
24 A. On 18th again he worked from 14 to 2100 hours in the same place.
25 Q. The 19th?
26 A. Would you please repeat -- would you please repeat the date?
27 I did not understand the date.
28 Q. 19th August?
1 A. On 19th in the same working place from 14 to 21.
2 Q. The 20th?
3 A. The 10th?
4 Q. The 20th?
5 A. The 10th August?
6 Q. No, 20th August.
7 A. 20th August, the 20th August, in the same working place from 06
8 to 1400 hours.
9 Q. 21st?
10 A. On 21st, the same working place in the period from 6 to 1400
12 Q. 22nd?
13 A. On 22nd the same working place from 2100 to 6.00 a.m.
14 Q. Would that be 6 a.m. on 23rd?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. Did he work again on 23rd?
17 A. On 23rd he worked again from 21 hours to 6 a.m. on 24th.
18 Q. Did he work again on 24th?
19 A. On 24th he worked in the same working place from 14 to 2100
21 Q. 25th?
22 A. On 25th, at the same working place from 14 to 2100 hours.
23 Q. The 26th?
24 A. On 26th, in the same working place from 6 to 1400 hours.
25 Q. The 27th?
26 A. On 27th, at the same working place from 06 to 1400 hours.
27 Q. On 28th?
28 A. On 28th, at the same working place from 2100 to 6 a.m.
1 Q. Is that 6 a.m. on 29th?
2 A. On 29th until 6 a.m.
3 Q. Did he work again on 29th?
4 A. Yes, he worked again from 2100 to 6.00 a.m. the following day.
5 Q. The following day is 30th. Did he work again on 30th?
6 A. On 30th he worked again from 1400 to 2100 hours.
7 Q. On 31st?
8 A. On 31st, also from 1400 to 2100 hours.
9 MISS DE BERTODANO: Your Honour, I note the time and that is a
10 convenient moment.
11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess until 2.30.
12 (1.00 p.m.)
13 (Luncheon Adjournment)
1 (2.30 p.m.)
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Marro, we are ready for the witness.
3 Miss de Bertodano, you may continue. I am not sure -- you can
4 see whether he can hear us.
5 MISS DE BERTODANO: Mr. Vujanovic, at this point I would like you to
6 look at another document and if we could have document B1 placed
7 in front of the witness, please? Mr. Vujanovic, do you
8 recognise that document?
9 A. I recognise it.
10 Q. What is it?
11 A. It is an extract from the duty list for the month of September
13 Q. Whose handwriting is on that exhibit?
14 A. It is mine.
15 MISS DE BERTODANO: Your Honour, I would ask that that Exhibit be
16 marked and tendered as Exhibit 78. Again there is an English
17 translation, so 78A for the original and 78B for the
18 translation? We have three copies for your Honours.
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Was this exhibit kept in the same way --
20 I gather it was. Is that so, Miss de Bertodano?
21 MISS DE BERTODANO: I am going to ask him that, your Honour.
22 Q. Mr. Vujanovic, when did you write the information that is in
23 that document?
24 A. I wrote in the information also one day later, that is, one day
25 after the duty had been performed.
26 Q. Where did you get the information from?
27 A. I obtained the information from the daily timetable prepared by
28 the station Commander.
1 Q. I would like you to help us with some of the information in that
2 document. If you could look down to the second name up from the
3 end, No. 203, and do you see "Tadic Dusko" written there?
4 A. Yes, it is so written.
5 Q. For the date of 1st September, can you tell us what that
6 document says that Dusko Tadic was doing on that day?
7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Are you going to offer 78A and B?
8 MISS DE BERTODANO: Your Honour, I thought I had.
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Defence Exhibit 78A
10 and 78B?
11 MR. TIEGER: No, your Honour.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: 78A and B will be admitted.
13 JUDGE STEPHEN: I think you can assume that the Judges follow it and
14 you need not go through each day.
15 MISS DE BERTODANO: Very well, your Honour. Mr. Vujanovic, can you
16 tell us for 1st September where Dusko Tadic was working, what he
17 was doing and what hours from the information on that document?
18 A. According to this document, Dusko Tadic was working in the 4th
19 district, that is, the region of the bus and railway station,
20 from 06 to 1400 hours.
21 Q. For the subsequent days of 2nd and 3rd September and also the
22 6th to 8th September, was he also working in the region of the
23 bus and railway station in the 4th district?
24 A. Yes, throughout this period until September 8th he was working
25 in the 4th district; only on 5th September he did not work one
27 Q. Is that what is written in the box under 5th September?
28 A. Yes, the words "he did not work" have been written in.
1 Q. If we turn to 9th September and going along the column to 15th,
2 can you tell us what is written in those boxes? Once again,
3 your Honour, it seems that the English translation is in front
4 of the witness rather than Serbo-Croat.
5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Vujanovic, do you have the English version
6 of this Exhibit? Mr. Marro, would you see whether he has 78A or
8 MR. MARRO: Your Honour ----
9 MISS DE BERTODANO: I am sorry, your Honour, it appeared --
10 MR. MARRO: --- the witness has the Serbo-Croatian text and I put on
11 the screen the English which is 78B, which is exactly the same,
12 but we have one in Serbo-Croatian and the other one in English
13 so you will always see the screen in English.
14 MISS DE BERTODANO: I am sorry, your Honour, that is my fault. I saw
15 it on the screen in English.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you, Mr. Marro.
17 MISS DE BERTODANO (To the witness): Can you tell us what is written
18 in the boxes from 9th to 15th September for Dusko Tadic?
19 THE INTERPRETER: The sound was lost for a moment.
20 MISS DE BERTODANO: I am sorry, Mr. Vujanovic, we had a problem with
21 the sound and I did not hear the first part of your answer. If
22 I could ask you again to tell us what is written across that
24 A. For 9th September, according to this duty schedule, he was to
25 have worked in the shift from 21 hours and I think he did not
26 come that day, but on the following day, on 10th, he was
27 transferred to another station, that is, the Kozarac police
1 Q. Can you tell us what words are written in the column of 9th
3 A. "Did not come to work".
4 Q. Where would you have got that information from?
5 A. This information is copied from the schedule prepared by the
6 leader of the shift.
7 Q. From where would you have got the information that he was
8 transferred to the Kozarac police station?
9 A. From the station Commander.
10 Q. The two documents that we have been looking at, can you tell us
11 whether they are kept in a book?
12 A. Yes, they are kept in a book.
13 Q. What does this book record, apart from the information that we
14 have been looking at?
15 A. Nothing else, except this information for each month separately
16 throughout the year.
17 Q. Does it record that information for all the policemen who were
18 working for the station?
19 A. For each individual policeman, this information is recorded.
20 Q. Is the book headed in some way? Is there a title on the book?
21 A. It is called a working list, radna lista.
22 Q. Thank you. You told us that the daily schedule was kept
23 by the shift Commanders, is that right?
24 A. The shift leader simply advises the policeman what duty he has
25 to perform on that day on the basis of a schedule prepared by
26 the station Commander.
27 Q. So the typed schedule from which you wrote this book was
28 prepared by the station Commander?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. The shift leader would then convey that information to the
3 people who were working?
4 A. The shift leader encircles the number under which the name of
5 the person is listed if he has come to work, and if he has not
6 come to work he writes the words "he has not come to work".
7 Q. Do you know who Dusko Tadic's shift Commander was at that time?
8 A. After so much time I am afraid I cannot remember.
9 MISS DE BERTODANO: Nothing further, your Honour.
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Cross-examination, Mr. Tieger?
11 Cross-Examined by MR. TIEGER
12 Q. Thank you, your Honour. Mr. Vujanovic, I would like to begin by
13 asking you a few background questions. First of all, what is
14 your date of birth?
15 A. I was born on 13th March 1955.
16 Q. What is your father's name?
17 A. Milos, Milos.
18 Q. Do you have any brothers or sisters?
19 A. I have a sister only.
20 Q. What is her name?
21 A. Mirka Vujanovic -- Mirka Vujanovic.
22 Q. Where did you live before moving to Prijedor in 1980?
23 A. I lived for a time in the region of Bosanska Dubica and for a
24 time in Sarajevo.
25 Q. Do you have any nicknames? Do you go by any names other than
27 A. No, I do not.
28 Q. Where were you living immediately before coming to Prijedor?
1 A. I lived in Sarajevo.
2 Q. What was your occupation there?
3 A. I was a policeman there too.
4 Q. What kind of duties did you perform in Sarajevo?
5 A. I provided security for buildings and persons.
6 Q. Did you have a particular title or rank?
7 A. The question is not clear to me. Could you repeat it, please?
8 Q. Sure. In the role of providing security for buildings and
9 persons, was that function identified by a particular title
10 within the police department?
11 A. No, it was a special police station for the security of more
12 important buildings and persons.
13 Q. What was that police station called?
14 A. The police station for security of persons and buildings.
15 Q. When you came to opstina Prijedor, did you immediately begin
16 work for the Prijedor police?
17 A. Yes, I immediately started working in the public security
18 station, but in the department, the police department of
20 Q. What were your duties for the Ljubija police department?
21 A. They were normal duties of policing.
22 Q. Who was your Commander when you began work for Ljubija?
23 A. When I started working in Ljubija, my Commander was Krajisnik
24 Mehmed -- Krajisnik Mehmed.
25 Q. Who was your last Commander at the Ljubija police station?
26 A. The last Commander was Vijekic Branko.
27 Q. I believe you told us that on or around May 1st 1992 you became
28 a member of the Prijedor police station, is that right?
1 A. Yes, that is correct.
2 Q. How many of your fellow officers from Ljubija became members of
3 the Prijedor police station at that time?
4 A. Two.
5 Q. What was their ethnic group or nationality?
6 A. Serbs.
7 Q. What is your ethnic group, sir?
8 A. Serb.
9 Q. After you began work for the Prijedor police station, were you
10 immediately placed in charge of records and materiel, technical
12 A. Yes, immediately.
13 Q. Where were you working? Where was your physical location or
14 your office?
15 A. In the building of the secretariat of the public security
17 Q. That is sometimes known as the SUP?
18 A. Yes, SUP.
19 Q. Has that continued to be your office to this day?
20 A. Mostly, yes, although the actual offices have changed. I have
21 changed to the one next door, but it is the same.
22 Q. In the spring and summer of 1992 what were your daily
23 responsibilities or daily activities as the person in charge of
24 the records and technical means?
25 A. My duties mostly had to do with supply of equipment, keeping
26 these various records in the police and so on.
27 Q. Did you have any deputies or assistants?
28 A. There was a colleague who would work with me from time to time
1 and assist me.
2 Q. What duties did he assist you with? What responsibilities did
3 he sometimes help you with?
4 A. In supplies, in getting supplies. We would go together to get
5 clothing for the workers and that sort of thing.
6 Q. What is his name?
7 A. Stakic Radenko.
8 Q. Mr. Vujanovic, I am looking now at the Exhibit which has been
9 marked D74 and which you have indicated is the August 1992 work
10 list. Do you have that nearby?
11 A. No.
12 Q. I take it you are looking at that now, is that correct?
13 A. Would you please repeat the question? I did not understand it.
14 Q. It appears from the screen that you now have that document in
15 front of you?
16 A. I do have it, yes.
17 Q. Looking at the row in which the name Dusko Tadic appears and
18 going to the far right portion of that row, there is a column
19 which is identified above which is column 7 as "primjedbe", do
20 you see that?
21 A. Yes, I see it.
22 Q. What does that refer to?
23 A. This refers to the total number of hours worked. "P" means
24 guard duty, 21 x 8 hours. I cannot see it too well. It is 184,
25 186 hours worked. Then again security, 3 x 8 hours, it should
26 be 24.
27 Q. Let me ask you to turn your attention to the column immediately
28 to the right of that, the "remarks" column. I see that in the
1 first person listed the remark or the information indicated in
2 the "remarks" column is "unemployed", is that right?
3 A. This is information that we entered to facilitate our work. It
4 is true that it says "unemployed" there.
5 Q. What does that refer to? What does it mean with reference to
6 that particular policeman?
7 A. This is information that we provided for certain needs. We
8 asked whether people were employed or unemployed, and so
9 probably we entered only information for only those who were
10 unemployed, just to facilitate our work. As a rule, one does
11 not enter anything else there except the number of hours worked.
12 Q. You indicated during your earlier testimony that you filled in
13 the information which is shown in this document the day after
14 the work was supposed to be performed?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. You took that information from the daily schedule prepared by
17 the station Commander?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So, in fact, I take it there was no particular need to record
20 that information on the day after the work was supposed to be
21 performed; it could have been written down two days later or
22 three days later because the information which you had in front
23 of you would have been the same?
24 A. No, I always kept this on a regular basis. I sought to perform
25 my duty on a daily regular basis.
26 Q. There was no occasion on which you were sick or absent or
27 occupied with other duties which caused you to fill in this form
28 a day or two later?
1 A. No, for this, these months of August and September I kept the
2 records regularly. Perhaps in my absence my colleague that
3 I mentioned kept the records before or after this period, but
4 for this period I kept them on a daily basis.
5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Excuse me, Mr. Tieger, we are going to take an
6 early recess because of a matter that has to be attended to. So
7 we will stand in recess for 20 minutes.
8 (3.05 p.m.)
9 (The Court adjourned for a short time)
10 (3.25 p.m.)
11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Marro, you are bringing in the witness?
12 Thank you. Mr. Tieger, you may continue.
13 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour.
14 Q. Mr. Vujanovic, I would like to ask the Registrar to place
15 Exhibit 78 in front of you and that is the September work list.
16 Looking at the second column, No. 2, that refers to the position
17 occupied by the particular police officer? Let me ask it this
18 way, sir: looking at No. 204, the last name to appear on that
19 page, we see in the first column the number 204 and then in the
20 second column the Roman numeral (iv). Can you tell us what that
21 Roman numeral stands for?
22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Can you hear us, Mr. Vujanovic? Mr. Vujanovic,
23 can you hear us? I do not think so. Mr. Vujanovic, can you
24 hear us? Mr. Marro, can you hear us? I think we have lost
25 sound. They have lost sound.
26 THE WITNESS: I hear you. I hear you.
27 MR. MARRO: No problem, your Honour. Everything is fine.
28 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Vujanovic, now that we can hear one another, I would
1 like you to look at the bottom of the page. We see the number
2 204 and then in the column next to it there appears to be the
3 Roman numeral (iv) or (iv). In any event, can you tell us what
4 that refers to?
5 A. This is Roman numeral (iv). The entire area of the city is
6 divided into several districts, but this is one of the districts
7 where duty was performed.
8 Q. So I see as we look up the page that next to the number 201, in
9 the column next to that there also appears the Roman numeral
10 (iv)? I take that again refers to that ----
11 A. Yes, it is the same number.
12 Q. Again refers to that particular district?
13 MR. KAY: I think the witness is looking at 2nd September.
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No, he appears to have the right Exhibit. Do
15 you have 78B before you, Mr. Vujanovic?
16 MISS DE BERTODANO: Your Honour, he has the right Exhibit but the
17 wrong column.
18 MR. TIEGER: I understand the objection.
19 Q. Mr. Vujanovic, let me ask you to look up the page to the police
20 officer who is indicated by No. 201? That is the name Bozo. Do
21 you see that?
22 A. Yes, I see it. I see it.
23 Q. In the column immediately next to the number 201 there appears
24 the Roman numeral (iv).
25 A. Yes.
26 Q. Does that again refer to a particular district in the town?
27 A. Yes, it refers to the same part as (iv) under (1) does.
28 Q. That district is what? Where is that district?
1 A. That is the area of the town itself, that is to say, the railway
2 station, the bus station, in Prijedor.
3 Q. I note that next to some of the numbers no Roman numeral
4 appears, for example, next to No. 200 or next to No. 199?
5 A. I can say in order to facilitate work I just put this there for
6 my own convenience. It is not a special designation. It was
7 just for me to make things easier for me, that is, to put in the
8 right entries in this work list.
9 Q. What is written in that same column next to 203 in Dusko Tadic's
11 A. "Dez" -- it is some kind of abbreviation.
12 Q. What does it represent or stand for?
13 A. At present I cannot tell, because we had a lot of information
14 involved that were of interest to us and also on the preceding
15 page when we looked at remarks, probably I took something out of
16 there and put certain things in there before No. 203.
17 Q. Do you know for sure that the writing in that column that says
18 "Dez" is your handwriting?
19 A. I can guarantee that for sure, my handwriting, and also this
20 entire list that I have on the table.
21 Q. In the row immediately above 203 and 202, it appears that next
22 to that number in the column for position is the number 1 or
23 perhaps you can read it better on your copy?
24 A. Yes, yes, it is number 1.
25 Q. What information did that provide you? How did that assist you
26 or what shorthand was that for the information you were
28 A. Otherwise that is not entered into that. You put in functions,
1 designations, so this is nothing to do with the service itself.
2 This is for internal use only -- simply things that I had to
3 take out of this list for myself.
4 Q. In that case, in the column next to 202, what did the "1" stand
6 A. Also I cannot remember all the information that I got out of
7 that list then. I do not know what are all the data I needed
8 and why I put it in.
9 Q. I understand. Again looking at row No. 203, Dusko Tadic's row
10 and drawing ----
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. --- your attention to September 5th where it is indicated "nije
13 radio", I believe you said that the information that Mr. Tadic
14 did not work on that day came from the leader of the shift. How
15 do you know that information came from the leader of the shift
16 rather than from the information you received from the daily
17 schedule which was prepared by the station Commander?
18 A. According to the daily schedule ----
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, the way we are proceeding now, it
20 appears we are not going to finish Friday with video link. We
21 had set aside an extra day, Saturday, if we had to because that
22 is all the time that we had got from the donated time and
23 equipment. Am I correct that it looks like we will have to sit
24 on Saturday?
25 MR. KAY: I think we are going to be all right by Friday, your
27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You think so? OK. Mr. Tieger and Mr. Niemann,
28 you have asked that some of these witnesses -- not all these
1 witnesses -- two witnesses we have heard thus far, at least, not
2 be released. So, if you intend on recalling them, it would have
3 to be via video link. Once again we only have until Saturday.
4 As we have indicated, we do not have equipment and it is not
5 something we contemplated, but we did make arrangements for the
6 Defence. I do not know what we can do after Saturday. So if
7 you do want to recall any of these witnesses, perhaps you should
8 talk with the Defence and see if you can reach some agreement to
9 either recall them out of time or something. All I am saying is
10 we just have the equipment through Saturday and I do not know
11 what we will do after that. You think about it and let me know
12 something tomorrow.
13 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour.
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Vujanovic, can you hear us?
15 THE WITNESS: I can hear you fine.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, continue.
17 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Vujanovic, would you like me to repeat the question
18 or do you recall exactly what it was?
19 A. The question relates to September 5th, where it was registered
20 that Tadic did not work that day.
21 Q. That is right. The question is how do you know that that
22 information simply was not provided to you on the daily schedule
23 prepared by the shift Commander?
24 A. The basis of the schedule prepared by the Commander of the
25 station, the officer on duty sends every policeman to his duty
26 and then afterwards it is supposed to be registered that he
27 reported in for duty, and that he was sent off to work. So his
28 number is encircled or not and that is why it says here that he
1 did not work that day.
2 Q. What if the station Commander had simply not scheduled him for
3 work that day?
4 A. The Commander of the shift does not plan at all. He only
5 implements what the station Commander plans.
6 Q. I assume there were some days on which the station Commander
7 decided that some officers would not work?
8 A. On that day when a certain policeman does not work, then a
9 special entry is made that he is off that day, free, and then
10 hours cannot be entered into this list.
11 Q. May I ask you to turn your attention to the last entries to the
12 right in that row, in row 203. We see ----
13 A. I see it.
14 Q. --- different numbers that appear there. In the total number of
15 hours on duty we see the No. 64. Then in the "remarks" section
16 we see 7, 57 and 7. What does the 57 and 7 represent?
17 A. "P" stands for "pozorna sluzba", guard duty. "7" is the 7 --
18 duty is the seven services, and then "57" is the number of
19 hours, and the "7" below is seven hours before reporting for
20 duty, he is supposed to report for duty half an hour earlier,
21 and then whenever he works for seven hours, then he has to
22 report an hour -- half an hour before that. So, all of these
23 hours are added up.
24 Q. So for each shift every police officer receives additional time
25 for the period before actually being at the duty station?
26 A. Yes, these are the hours of preparing for duty.
27 Q. You have indicated that it was the responsibility of the shift
28 leader to report whether or not all the members of the shift had
1 shown up for work?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. First of all, how large were these shifts? How many officers on
4 each shift or did that vary?
5 A. There was a certain number.
6 Q. Do you know, for example, how many officers in sector 4?
7 A. I am not aware of this information.
8 Q. What if during the course of that shift one of the officers went
9 out, left the area for, let us say, a cup of coffee or a bite to
10 eat, is that something that the shift leader would necessarily
12 A. Every policeman has to report before leaving his duty station.
13 He has to the report to the shift Commander about that.
14 Q. Sure, and did the shift Commander have to report to you on each
15 occasion that a police officer went out to get a cup of coffee
16 for himself or for his fellow officers?
17 A. No, he did not have to inform me, but he had to inform his
18 superiors of that.
19 Q. I take it the same thing would be true if one of the officers on
20 duty was not feeling well for an hour or two; that is something
21 he should tell his shift leader but the shift leader would not
22 necessarily have to report to you?
23 A. He is duty bound to report to the shift leader and the shift
24 leader can release him, but in that case he has to report to the
25 Commander of the station about that.
26 Q. Depending on the amount of time, either the shift leader or the
27 station Commander might not bring that information to your
28 attention, correct?
1 A. They would not tell me.
2 Q. What if one of the officers on duty was sent to an assignment in
3 another sector, that is something that his shift leader would
4 have to know about under the rules but about which you would not
5 necessarily be informed, is that right?
6 A. In order to change duty, mean duty is assigned on the basis of a
7 list, a schedule, and then the Commander has to be made aware of
8 all that.
9 Q. Assuming the particular officer notified the shift leader and
10 assuming the shift leader notified the station Commander, the
11 station Commander would not necessarily notify you that the
12 officer had performed some function in another area?
13 A. They would not have to inform me.
14 Q. Do you know what the boundaries of sector 4 were, physical
16 A. That is the area that includes the bus station and the railway
17 station. It is a very small area.
18 Q. Was that a particular position at the bus station or railway
20 A. Yes, there were definite positions.
21 Q. At different times would the officers patrolling the bus station
22 and railway station be in different positions?
23 A. No, they would work together in that sector.
24 Q. Would they stand at exactly the same spot for the entire portion
25 of their shift or would they patrol the area, or do you know?
26 A. They have an office there and, if necessary, they do patrol the
27 region together.
28 Q. Is it fair to say that sometimes some of the officers would be
1 inside the office and others would be outside engaged in some
2 form of patrol?
3 A. Mostly they were obliged to perform their duties together.
4 Q. You yourself never performed any patrol duties for the Prijedor
5 police station, did you?
6 A. No, never.
7 MR. TIEGER: Nothing further, your Honour.
8 MISS DE BERTODANO: Nothing arising, your Honour. Thank you.
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to this witness being
10 permanently excused?
11 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Vujanovic, you are free to leave now.
13 However, you may be recalled as a witness, so you should make
14 yourself available if you are asked to return to give testimony
15 for the Tribunal. So, please keep in touch with Mr. Wladimiroff
16 and he will contact you if you are to return to give additional
17 testimony. Will you do that?
18 THE WITNESS: There are no problems. Whenever necessary, I shall be
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you very much for coming, Mr. Vujanovic.
21 You are now excused.
22 THE WITNESS: Thank you too.
23 (The witness withdrew).
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, would you call your next witness,
26 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour. As a preliminary matter, first of all,
27 I have had a communication from Banja Luka that Mr. Prpos has
28 been able to have supplied the unredacted Exhibits which,
1 I believe, are in the possession, joint possession, of Defence
2 and Prosecution as well as including the page relating to
3 3rd August which, your Honours may remember, questions were
4 asked about.
5 DRAGOLJUB SAVIC, called.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Marro, you may administer the oath, if you
7 wish, and then ask the witness to be seated. Never mind. Have
8 the witness seated. Be seated. We are discussing another
9 matter. Mr. Marro, you may administer the oath to Mr. Savic
10 unless he has already administered the oath.
11 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak
12 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
13 (The witness was sworn)
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Need we discuss this before this witness?
15 I understand those documents are available.
16 MR. KAY: I will raise it later, your Honour.
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Very good. You may proceed.
18 Wait, before we proceed, we have received an affidavit
19 Mr. Kay, regarding Mr. Savic and Mr. Budimir. I presume you
20 will then make an oral motion for Mr. Savic to give his
21 testimony by video conference?
22 MR. KAY: Your Honour, that was our intent, if I may replicate now
23 what is on that document as part of our motion, that we need to
24 call this witness by video link.
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection from the Prosecution?
26 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, we have not been served with anything in
27 relation to this.
28 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Would you provide the Prosecution with a copy
1 of the affidavit or do you have an extra one?
2 MR. KAY: Your Honour, we left it with the Registry.
3 MR. BOS: It has just been served.
4 MR. NIEMANN: I have not seen it, your Honour.
5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I have not marked on this one.
6 MR. NIEMANN: I have had the list with the name on it for some time.
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will be a few moments, Mr. Savic. You may
9 just sit there. Thank you. Mr. Niemann?
10 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honours. Your Honours, we have heard
11 something in relation to police officers being not permitted to
12 testify, but this is the first time there has ever been
13 reference, so far as we know, to civil servants. From our
14 understanding of the evidence, at least one other witness, as we
15 understand the position of that other witness, would have been a
16 civil servant.
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You do not mean I would have to give the name?
18 MR. NIEMANN: No, it was Witness D, your Honour, and it was in closed
19 session or private session, at least. So we are somewhat
20 perplexed to now learn that this is a new development that we
21 have not been informed of before.
22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So what is the position regarding Mr. Savic?
23 MR. KAY: Witness D worked for the municipality, if your Honour will
24 recollect. This witness works for the railway board of Prijedor
25 and Banja Luka, and was spoken to during the summer. The
26 information passed on to me yesterday and to Miss de Bertodano
27 was that permissions would be not forthcoming from the Ministry
28 for this witness to be able to leave Republika Srpska to give
1 evidence; hence the filing of the affidavit this morning.
2 It is also believed that the same position will apply
3 to that witness Budimir whom I have not heard that we have been
4 in contact yet with, and enquiries are taking place on the
5 ground in Banja Luka by Mr. Wladimiroff during this week. He
6 works for the Ministry of Defence.
7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: When was Mr. Savic -- I am looking for his name
8 on the witness list and I cannot see it -- is it on this green
9 sheet which was the list that you filed?
10 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I do not have that to hand.
11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I do not see it.
12 MR. KAY: I doubt it because ----
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: He is not listed on the list that was filed
14 sometime ago.
15 MR. KAY: No, he arises as a result of continuing Defence
16 investigations that have been up until even as we speak.
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I am sure, as long as we continue both sides
18 will be investigating and continuing, but at some point we have
19 to say "no", it comes to an end. We are about at that point.
20 He is not on the list that you filed September 27th.
21 MR. KAY: No.
22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: But he is someone you have discovered and you
23 have also discovered that his boss or the person in charge has
24 said he will not be allowed to come.
25 MR. KAY: Yes.
26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So, therefore, we need to hear his testimony
27 via video link. What is the importance of his testimony?
28 MR. KAY: He gives details of train times for 23rd May 1992 and
1 15th June 1992 which are relevant to the defendant's alibi.
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: May 23rd?
3 MR. KAY: Yes, the day before the conflict in Kozarac.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Did they not arrive with the priest?
5 MR. KAY: No, your Honour, that was earlier in May, May 8th. Your
6 Honour, the story, so to speak, is still unfolding and more
7 Defence witnesses are to be heard on this matter.
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Please do not tell me that. Mr. Niemann, train
9 times, May -- what did you say -- 23rd and June 15th?
10 MR. KAY: 15th June.
11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: June 15th.
12 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, our concern at the moment was just with
13 this change of circumstances. We were informed that this
14 witness would be called at 10 a.m. on 15th which was yesterday.
15 How long the Defence have known of the witness, I do not know.
16 I am unsure now, having regard to what Mr. Kay has stated, what
17 the position is with the witness Budimir.
18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I wanted to ask about Budimir. Budimir was
19 listed and listed as a policy witness, is that not so? Where
20 did I get that information from?
21 MR. KAY: Yes.
22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I have scribbled on my sheet "policy". Is that
23 not someone -- you know, we heard from the Prosecution policy
24 for several days ----
25 MR. KAY: You have heard 16 policy witnesses.
26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: --- and we have heard your witnesses, a witness
27 at least, policy. Is this not someone who could come here --
28 the reason I ask is video conferencing is very expensive and it
1 is also not even called for, so we are making an exception but
2 we do not want to wear out the use of this unless it is
3 absolutely necessary. So it is not really for convenience
4 because no one, I am sure, would want to come to the Hague if
5 they could choose -- I might not either!
6 MR. KAY: He is someone within the government, so to speak, and whose
7 authority comes from the Ministry of Defence.
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Budimir, you are telling me, cannot come?
9 MR. KAY: That is my information. Enquiries are being made, as your
10 Honours know. We cannot just telephone these people up to speak
11 to them. It is ----
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No, we have seen that both sides have the same
13 problem. I understand the problem, but understand our
14 limitations. Mr. Savic, though, is listed -- I asked this
15 morning -- you said half an hour to an hour he will talk about
16 train times. I will overrule your objection and we will hear
17 from Mr. Savic.
18 MR. KAY: I am much obliged.
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Budimir, I would ask you, you have listed
20 him for three hours, at least when I asked you about him, so
21 really investigate and see if, perhaps, we can handle it in a
22 different way. We will decide on Mr. Budimir when we get there.
23 Mr. Marro, would you please put the earphones on
24 Mr. Savic?
25 Examined by MR. KAY
26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, you may begin.
27 MR. KAY: Mr. Savic, can you give the Court your full name, please?
28 A. Savic Dragoljub.
1 Q. Can you tell the Court what is your job?
2 A. I am an economist.
3 Q. Can you tell the Court whom you work for?
4 A. I work in the Doboj transport company, the section for Prijedor.
5 Q. Is that the railway company?
6 A. Yes, it is the railway company.
7 Q. Have you looked at the train timetable for 23rd May 1992 ----
8 A. I have.
9 Q. --- for the train from Banja Luka to Prijedor and Prijedor to
10 Banja Luka?
11 A. The train going from Prijedor to Banja Luka and Banja Luka to
12 Prijedor is given in the information submitted to you. The
13 departure times from Banja Luka and arrival time in Prijedor and
14 vice versa. Those are the data that I have given you.
15 Q. Yes, and if you would just answer my questions about it, I would
16 be much obliged. First of all, can you tell us what document
17 you looked at to provide a schedule of the train times on
18 23rd May 1992?
19 A. The document from which I gathered the information is the daily
20 record on the movement of trains in the station of Prijedor.
21 That is the document I used.
22 Q. Can you confirm that the trains were running between those two
23 towns on that date of 23rd May?
24 A. According to the records that I had at my disposal and from
25 which I collected the information, yes, one can see that they
26 were running.
27 Q. Did you do a similar schedule for trains between Banja Luka and
28 Prijedor for 15th June 1992?
1 A. Yes, the timetable was the same then as it is now, that there is
2 no war.
3 Q. Can you confirm that the trains were running between Banja Luka
4 and Prijedor on that date of 15th June?
5 A. I do confirm on the basis of the records. At that time I was
6 not performing the duty I have been performing since 1st August
7 1996. Therefore, I submitted the information on the basis of
8 the records kept.
9 Q. Did the records that were kept also indicate the number of the
10 train that was running at a particular time?
11 A. The records show the number of the train, the departure time or
12 arrival time, depending on the direction in which the train was
13 running. We can see from the records the time of departure and
14 of arrival.
15 Q. Did the information that you looked at also give information
16 concerning delay from the original timetable?
17 A. Yes, it is recorded if there are any delays, plus 45 minutes,
18 for instance, or something like that. "Plus 45", that means a
20 Q. The information you looked at to compile your schedule, was that
21 made by someone who had the responsibility to record these
23 A. Yes, the information is entered by the assistant chief of the
25 Q. What I would like you to do now is to look at documents in a
26 folder called E1. If Mr. Marro could put those documents in
27 front of you? Do you recognise the document which is of two
28 pages placed in front of you as the schedule that you have
1 compiled with the information you have told us about?
2 A. Yes, that is the schedule.
3 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I now offer this to the Court as D79A in a
4 form of Serbo-Croat and D79B as an English translation.
5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What is this that you are offering now?
6 MR. KAY: It is a schedule of train times for 23rd May 1992 and 15th
7 June 1992 compiled as described by Mr. Savic. 79A is the
8 Serbo-Croat, 79B is the English translation.
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, is there any objection to 79A and
11 MR. TIEGER: No, your Honour.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: They will be admitted. These are printed,
13 published timetables?
14 MR. KAY: Yes.
15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. That is probably -- maybe we could take
16 judicial notice of something like this. In any case, proceed
18 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I do not think Mr. Kay intended to indicate
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes. I thought they were -- he said "yes" only
21 because I am looking at the second page. But then this witness
22 said that he was not even in a position to record these. I am
23 really trying to hurry the testimony along. I will let it
25 MR. KAY: Yes. Mr. Savic, can you look at the document which is
26 headed 23rd May 1992?
27 A. I am looking at it.
28 Q. Does that contain a schedule of the times of departures and
1 arrivals of trains at Prijedor railway station on that date ----
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. --- to Banja Luka?
4 A. This is a list of a train arrivals and departures on the
5 Prijedor railway station on 23rd May 1992.
6 Q. Those are the trains to Banja Luka and from Banja Luka on that
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Also if we just look at the timings of the trains, the first one
10 was scheduled to depart for Banja Luka at 5.45 in the morning,
11 is that right?
12 A. Yes, there was a delay of 45 minutes. It should have left at
13 5.00, so it actually left at 5.45.
14 Q. Seeing that information concerning the delay on that date of
15 23rd May, does that indicate that someone has taken notice of
16 the fact that the train actually ran on that date?
17 A. Yes, it is recorded as having been delayed.
18 Q. Does it show that the next train that departed for Banja Luka
19 from Prijedor on 23rd May is recorded as having departed at
20 12.25 in the afternoon?
21 A. Yes, it left on 12.25.
22 Q. I would like you now to look at the schedule for 15th June
23 1992. Does that contain the same information between those
24 towns of Prijedor and Banja Luka for the running of the trains
25 on that day?
26 A. Here we have information on arrival and departure of trains for
27 that day.
28 Q. This record containing these times of arrival and departure, do
1 they show the arrival at Prijedor railway station before the
2 departure to Banja Luka?
3 A. Yes, it does.
4 Q. For instance, if we look at ----
5 A. It shows that.
6 Q. For instance, if we look at the train No. 940 ----
7 A. Yes, 940.
8 Q. --- it states arrival 6.48?
9 A. Yes, arrival 6.45, departure 7.00.
10 Q. Is that arrival at Prijedor railway station?
11 A. Yes, arrival at the station, then stays there for a while and
12 then it leaves.
13 Q. So the departure column shows the time that it departs?
14 A. Yes, that is right.
15 Q. Is this an accurate schedule that you have prepared for both of
16 these dates?
17 A. The record was taken from the log book recording the arrival and
18 departure of trains in the Prijedor station, prepared by the
19 assistant station chief. This is a copy of those records.
20 MR. KAY: Thank you. That is all I ask.
21 JUDGE STEPHEN: Can I ask you just to clarify one thing? Does it
22 mean, when it is departure, does it go back to Banja Luka or
23 does it continue on? I see sometimes there is only two
25 MR. KAY: Yes. Mr. Savic, can you clarify a further matter for us?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. The arrivals column which contains a time, for instance, the 940
28 train on 23rd May 1992?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. When it arrives at Prijedor railway station at 6.42, can you see
4 A. In Prijedor?
5 Q. Yes. When it departs at 6.43 ----
6 A. I did not understand. It arrives at 6.42 and it left at 6.43.
7 Q. Perhaps you can tell us, first of all, where it arrives from?
8 A. It arrives from Banja Luka, and from Prijedor it goes on to Novi
9 Grad or Bosanski Novi.
10 Q. So at 6.43 that train would have left Prijedor to go to Bosanski
11 Novi or elsewhere?
12 A. Yes, it goes on.
13 MR. KAY: Thank you. Wait there, please.
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger?
15 Cross-Examined by MR. TIEGER
16 Q. Thank you, your Honour. Mr. Savic, is it correct that the
17 schedules for the train that we see on the documents you
18 presented have remained, essentially, in effect to this day?
19 Did I understand that you indicated that these are basically the
20 same schedules that have remained in effect since the time
21 indicated on the documents you prepared?
22 A. Roughly the timetable is as it is according to this document.
23 Of course, changes are always possible, as in any other job.
24 There are changes in arrivals and departures, these are
26 Q. Do you know for how long before May 23rd this was the basic
27 schedule for a train service between Prijedor and Banja Luka?
28 A. I do not know that.
1 Q. So, this would have been, essentially, the same schedule that
2 the trains between Prijedor and Banja Luka followed on 23rd May,
3 24th, 25th, 26th May and on to this day?
4 A. Yes, up to this day, more or less.
5 Q. I understand that you reviewed a document which was prepared by
6 somebody else and from that information prepared the document
7 which you have presented to the Defence, is that correct?
8 A. Yes, on the basis of that document I prepared this document.
9 Q. Is there any reason why you did not simply copy the document
10 that you were looking at and present that?
11 A. There is no reason, except that that is a book. So I had no
12 other way but to copy it from the book. I just confirm the
13 information found in the book.
14 Q. Looking at the schedule which you prepared for June 15th, that
15 indicates, as I read it, that each and every train arrived on
16 time and departed on time?
17 A. That is what the record says.
18 Q. Do you know whether or not the trains performed with that kind
19 of precision and punctuality or whether or not the person at the
20 train station simply did not record any deviations from the
22 A. I do not know that.
23 Q. How long does a train take to go from Prijedor to Banja Luka?
24 A. The train takes from Prijedor to Banja Luka about one hour, one
25 and a half. It depends on the circumstances. Everything is
26 changing, the condition of the railroad and the situation and
27 then the speed has to be reduced and so on. So an hour and a
1 Q. Is the time from Banja Luka to Prijedor the same or are there
2 any factors which make the time it takes to go in that direction
4 A. The time depends on the segment of the railroad, because in some
5 segments the speed is lower and then it takes longer. Then
6 there are other parts of the railroad that are in better
7 condition, and then the trip takes less. Therefore, it all
8 depends on the technical conditions on the railroad on which the
9 traffic is running.
10 Q. I am asking you about the segment between Prijedor and Banja
11 Luka and between Banja Luka and Prijedor. Are you indicating
12 that there are factors on any given day which may change the
13 amount of time it takes, that those factors may change in any
14 given day?
15 A. The factors that affect that are the railroad itself possibly,
16 and sometimes there is no electricity and whatever. Sometimes
17 something goes wrong with the train itself. These are some of
18 the characteristics that can affect the time needed for the
19 train to traverse that part of the railway, not only that part
20 of the railroad.
21 Q. In general, however, the time between Prijedor and Banja Luka is
22 an hour to an hour and a half, as you indicated?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is the time from Banja Luka to Prijedor, essentially, the same?
25 A. It is more or less the same time. I cannot tell you in terms of
26 exact minutes, but it is more or less the same.
27 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me, may I have a quick moment to look at the
28 schedule? Thank you, your Honour. That is all I have.
1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
2 MR. KAY: Nothing arises, your Honour.
3 Examined by the Court
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Savic, does the train go from Prijedor to
6 A. From Prijedor to Omarska?
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. Now the train goes from Prijedor to Omarska, now at this time.
9 Q. How long is the train trip from Prijedor to Omarska?
10 A. From Prijedor to Omarska it takes about 20 minutes.
11 Q. How often ----
12 A. 20 to 25 minutes.
13 Q. Is it the same amount of time going from Omarska to Prijedor?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. How often does the train run from Prijedor to Omarska?
16 A. All these trains go through Omarska and to Omarska. The train
17 from Banja Luka to Prijedor goes through Omarska.
18 Q. So this, if I look at this list that you prepared from the train
19 schedule, then I could assume that the train from -- well,
20 I guess the train for Banja Luka No. 6421, is that one that
21 would originate in, well, at some point it would be in Prijedor
22 and then stop in Omarska on its way to Banja Luka?
23 A. Yes, in Omarska, yes.
24 Q. Then from Banja Luka it would stop in Omarska and then
25 eventually it would get to Prijedor?
26 A. Yes, yes.
27 Q. OK, thank you. All of these trains, do they all stop at
1 A. They do.
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, do you have additional questions?
3 MR. KAY: Nothing arises, your Honour.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger? OK. Is there any objection to
5 Mr. Savic being permanently excused?
6 MR. TIEGER: No, your Honour.
7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Savic, you are permanently excused. That
8 means you are free to leave. Thank you very much for coming.
9 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
10 (The witness withdrew)
11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, would you call your next witness.
12 MR. KAY: The next witness is Trivo Reljic.
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Marro, would you administer the oath,
14 please, to Mr. Reljic?
15 TRIVO RELJIC, called.
16 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak
17 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
18 (The witness was sworn)
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, you may begin.
20 Examined by MR. KAY
21 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.
22 Q. Is your name Trivo Reljic?
23 A. My name is Trivo Reljic.
24 Q. Do you live in Svodna?
25 A. I live in Svodna.
26 Q. How old are you, Mr. Reljic?
27 A. I am about to turn 62.
28 Q. What is your job?
1 A. A medical technician.
2 Q. Are you employed or unemployed at the moment?
3 A. I have just retired now.
4 Q. For how long have you lived in Svodna?
5 A. I was born in Svodna and I lived there until 1958. From '58
6 to '72 (sic) I lived in Kozarac and now I live in Svodna again.
7 Q. Did you live in Kozarac until '72 or 1992?
8 A. '92, until 23rd May 1992.
9 Q. Until that date, had you lived in the village of Kozarac with
10 your family?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did your family consist of a wife and two sons?
13 A. Yes, my wife Milka, my son Goran, my son Zoran.
14 Q. Is it right that one of your sons is severely disabled?
15 A. Yes, Zoran, my son Zoran. He uses a wheelchair.
16 Q. Did you work as a medical technician in the clinic in Kozarac?
17 A. Yes, all the time.
18 Q. When did you start that job at the clinic in Kozarac?
19 A. 1st April 1958.
20 Q. When did you finish that job in Kozarac?
21 A. On 23rd May 1992.
22 Q. Why did you cease living in Kozarac on that day?
23 A. On 23rd everything was abandoned in Kozarac. This war was
24 breaking out and that is how I went to Svodna where I was born.
25 I went with my family.
26 Q. Are you a Serb?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Did your wife leave Kozarac on 23rd May with you?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. On 23rd May can you tell us what time you left Kozarac?
3 A. Around 20 minutes to 7 in the morning.
4 Q. Where did you go to?
5 A. I started going towards Prijedor and from Prijedor I went to
7 Q. How did you travel there?
8 A. We had a car, a so-called Fica, Fiat 850. My son was driving
10 Q. Who was in the car with you?
11 A. My son and I, we left in the morning and we drove Dusko Tadic to
12 Prijedor with his family.
13 Q. When you ----
14 A. With his family.
15 Q. When you drove Dusko Tadic, did you leave from your house with
16 him or did you meet him somewhere?
17 A. I was going out of my yard, and since the house of Dusko Tadic
18 is across the street from the place where I lived, then Dusko
19 showed up and he said, "Where are you going?" and I said, "To
20 Prijedor". "Could I come with you?" "Well, you could", and we
21 took him to Prijedor.
22 Q. What time did you arrive at Prijedor?
23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot hear the witness. There is
24 no sound. There has just been a bit of sound, says the English
26 MR. KAY: Mr. Reljic, we lost your evidence to us then and I am going
27 to have to repeat the question and if you could give us your
28 answer again?
1 What time did you arrive in Prijedor?
2 A. From Kozarac to Prijedor we travelled about 20 minutes.
3 Q. Did Dusko Tadic travel to Svodna with you or did he go anywhere
5 A. We left him near the Autotransport company in Prijedor. He
6 stayed there and we continued our journey.
7 Q. Whereabouts in Prijedor is the Autotransport company?
8 A. Up by the hospital, the so-called Urije.
9 Q. Did you leave Dusko Tadic on his own or did anyone else also get
10 left with him?
11 A. For the time being he was alone when we left.
12 Q. So who else was left in your car?
13 A. I, my son, my wife and the other son, the sick one.
14 Q. So Dusko Tadic then travelled with you on his own with your
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. Were other Serbs leaving Kozarac at this time?
18 A. As far as I know, some of them left the same morning and the
19 others stayed on. Whether they stayed throughout the day and
20 throughout the night, I do not know because I left.
21 Q. Had other Muslims who lived in Kozarac left the town before this
23 A. Some of them left and some stayed at home and others were moving
24 towards the forest up there towards Kozara. They were moving
25 away. They were thinking that a fight would break out. There
26 it is.
27 MR. KAY: Thank you. That is all I ask. Wait there, please,
28 Mr. Reljic.
1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, cross-examination of Mr. Reljic or
2 Miss Hollis?
3 Cross-Examined by MISS HOLLIS
4 Q. Mr. Reljic, could you give us your exact date of birth, please?
5 A. 16th April 1935 in Svodna.
6 Q. You indicated that when you lived in Kozarac you lived across
7 from the home of Dule Tadic, is that correct?
8 A. Yes, yes, that is correct.
9 Q. What was your address in Kozarac?
10 A. Marsala Tita, No. 3, and after that just before the war broke
11 out they renamed it into Mladena Stojanovica, also No. 3.
12 Q. So you lived across from the Tadic family home?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you know the members of the Tadic family?
15 A. Well, yes, we knew each other as neighbours. It was nearby,
16 just across the street, so we knew each other.
17 Q. Who did you know in the Tadic family?
18 A. I knew the father, Ostoja, and Staka, the mother, brother
19 Stojan, Mladen.
20 Q. Did you know Dule Tadic's wife Mira?
21 A. Yes, we worked together in the clinic for some time.
22 Q. Your wife Milka, where was she born?
23 A. She was born ----
24 THE INTERPRETER: The English interpreter did not get any more sound.
25 MISS HOLLIS: I am sorry, sir. We could not hear the last part of
26 your answer. Could you tell us again where was your wife born?
27 A. The village of Brdjani in Kozarac, in the forest, in the
1 THE INTERPRETER: Again there is no sound.
2 MISS HOLLIS: What was her maiden name? I am sorry, sir. We did not
3 hear your answer. Could you repeat that?
4 A. Petric Mile, Milka. Petric was her surname and Mile was her
5 father's name.
6 Q. What were the dates of birth for your sons?
7 A. Zoran was born on May 26th, '61. Goran was born on
8 30th November in 1968.
9 Q. Did either of your sons serve in the military in 1992?
10 A. My older son did not and my younger son, Goran, also was not in
11 the army then. He went to the army in 1994.
12 Q. Did you know a man by the name of Sreto Karajica?
13 A. Karajica, yes, he worked with me. I know him.
14 Q. Where was he from?
15 A. From Trnopolje, the village of Trnopolje, Kozarac also.
16 Q. In 1992 what would his age have been, if you know?
17 A. I cannot tell exactly how old he was.
18 Q. Was he approximately your age or younger?
19 A. Younger. He was born in '46. I know that.
20 Q. What was his father's name, if you know?
21 A. Sveto.
22 Q. That would be S ----
23 A. Sveto Karajica.
24 Q. That would be S-V-E-T-O, is that correct?
25 A. Yes, yes.
26 Q. Did Sveto have any brothers?
27 A. He had a brother. I do not know what his name is. I forgot.
28 He is disabled. There is something wrong with his foot or leg.
1 Q. Did Sreto have any sons?
2 A. Yes, two sons.
3 Q. Do you recall their names?
4 A. Mladen and -- Mladen and Zoran.
5 Q. Do you know what their ages would have been in 1992?
6 A. In '68, one of them, and the younger one, I cannot tell
7 exactly. I do not know when he was born.
8 Q. Sir, can you tell us the month and the year that you retired?
9 A. This year I applied for retirement on 1st January of 1996.
10 Q. You had been working in what town prior to your retirement, in
12 A. No, I did not work when I came. I was waiting because there was
13 not any work.
14 Q. But up until recently, up until you retired, where were you
16 A. I worked in Kozarac. I worked only for six months in Bosanski
17 Novi before coming to Kozarac. That is what I did only.
18 Q. Sir, what I am interested in is you indicated that you worked in
19 Kozarac and then in May 1992 you left Kozarac. Have you worked
20 since May 1992?
21 A. I only came to Prijedor to work in the health centre for 12
22 days. They -- I had no vehicle to travel by, so they let me be
23 on the waiting list, so to speak.
24 Q. During the months of May to December 1992, how easy was it for
25 you to get fuel for your personal vehicle?
26 A. I do not know. I did not buy it and I could not afford it, and
27 my son would not drive either, so ----
28 Q. Was fuel rationed?
1 A. --- there was no fuel.
2 Q. When you would travel from Svodna, did you have to get special
3 permission to travel from Svodna to another town?
4 A. I did not ask for that. I only got this paper in order to go to
5 work. When I went to work for 12 days, I just got this paper
6 that I would be going to work.
7 Q. When you left Kozarac on 23rd May, did you get a paper giving
8 you permission to leave the town?
9 A. No, I did not get any document then.
10 Q. I believe you indicated it took you approximately 20 minutes to
11 go from Kozarac to Prijedor, is that correct?
12 A. Something like that, because we stopped for a moment because my
13 son recognised a colleague of his. Then we stopped. He
14 exchanged a couple of words with him and then we went on.
15 Q. Where was it that you stopped?
16 A. Near the hospital in Prijedor, it is called Cirkin Polje, the
17 locality, that is where we stopped, on the road.
18 Q. Who was it that your son recognised?
19 A. A colleague of his. They went to school together in the
20 forestry school when they were students and they recognised each
22 Q. That was the only stop that you made between Kozarac and
24 A. Yes, only one stop.
25 Q. Just for a point of clarification: early in your testimony you
26 indicated that when you left Kozarac on 23rd May you took with
27 you Dule Tadic and his family, is that correct?
28 A. No, not his family, just Dusko Tadic and my family.
1 MISS HOLLIS: No further questions, your Honour.
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
3 Re-examined by MR. KAY
4 MR. KAY: Could the car that you were travelling in have accommodated
5 both of your families?
6 A. No, it could not.
7 Q. On your way to Prijedor from Kozarac on 23rd May, did you have
8 to pass through any checkpoints?
9 A. Yes. We passed through at Koncari. There were Muslims
10 unloading two trucks, weapons and I do not know what, and at
11 Orlovci there was a checkpoint of the police and we passed by
12 that way.
13 Q. Did you have to stop at Orlovci checkpoint?
14 A. Nothing. We just waved our hands out of the car and passed.
15 MR. KAY: Thank you. That is all I ask.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis, do you have additional questions?
17 Further cross-examined by MISS HOLLIS
18 Q. Sir, so when you were by the Orlovci checkpoint you did not have
19 to stop and show your papers?
20 A. No, we did not.
21 Q. You just merely waved and went through the checkpoint, is that
23 A. Yes, we just said "hello" because we had no papers.
24 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you.
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
26 MR. KAY: Nothing arises, your Honour.
27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mr. Reljic being
28 permanently excused?
1 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour.
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Reljic, you are free to leave now.
3 However, you may be recalled to give testimony for the
4 Tribunal. So you should make yourself available. Keep in touch
5 with Mr. Wladimiroff and he will tell you if you are asked to
6 return to give testimony. Will you do that?
7 THE WITNESS: If necessary, I am here.
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you very much for coming, Mr. Reljic.
9 You are excused now, but not permanently.
10 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
11 (The witness withdrew)
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, would you call your next witness,
14 MISS DE BERTODANO: Your Honour, the next witness is Stojan Smoljic.
15 STOJAN SMOLJIC, called.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Marro, you may administer the oath to
17 Mr. Smoljic.
18 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak
19 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
20 (The witness was sworn)
21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you.
22 Examined by MISS DE BERTODANO
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss de Bertodano, you may begin if we have
24 sound. It is clear to me.
25 MISS DE BERTODANO: Thank you, your Honour.
26 Q. Witness, is your name Stojan Smoljic?
27 A. It is.
28 Q. Where do you live?
1 A. In Kozarac.
2 Q. What is your present occupation?
3 A. I beg your pardon?
4 Q. What is your job?
5 A. I am not doing anything now. I used to work for the Electricity
6 Board of Jajce. That is where I was born and I came here
7 in '92.
8 Q. When did you come here, on what date in 1992 did you come to
10 A. On 15th October I came alone to see whether there was any
11 accommodation to be found for my family. After that Dusan Tadic
12 was the Secretary of the local community and he took me in.
13 Then I went back ----
14 Q. Mr. Smoljic ----
15 A. --- to bring my family.
16 Q. --- if I could stop you. If I could take you back a couple of
17 stages. Why did you come from Jajce to Kozarac on 15th October?
18 A. Because I was chased out by the Muslims and Croats and they
19 killed my cousin.
20 Q. You said you came on your own to Kozarac on 15th October, is
21 that right?
22 A. On 15th October I came alone and on 28th October I brought my
23 family, because there was nowhere for them to live.
24 Q. How long did you stay having arrived on 15th October before you
25 returned to collect your family?
26 A. I stayed one and a half days or rather 24 hours.
27 Q. Did you find accommodation during that time?
28 A. Dusan Tadic found accommodation for me, and then I returned to
1 paint the house with my family and that is where I am now in
3 Q. How did you meet Dusko Tadic?
4 A. I met him because he was the Secretary of the local community.
5 Q. Did you meet him then on the day that you arrived on 15th
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. Where did you meet him?
9 A. I met him at the school where the local community was housed.
10 Q. You have told us that he found you accommodation, and you then
11 returned to Jajce to collect your family?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You returned to the Kozarac area on 28th October, is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you after returning ----
16 A. I returned on 17th October and then I came again with my whole
17 family on 28th October.
18 Q. How many people are there in your family who came with you on
19 28th October?
20 A. There is me, my wife and six children.
21 Q. When you returned on 28th October, did you find any employment
22 in Kozarac after that date?
23 A. No, there was nothing to be done, nothing was functioning.
24 I could not find any work. I do not know what will happen to me
25 because I was a worker of Elektro Bosna of Jajce.
26 Q. Have you done any work at all since 28th October?
27 A. Here I help people and they help me, so that me and my family
28 can survive somehow.
1 Q. In the time that you were in Kozarac after 28th October, did you
2 see Dusko Tadic again?
3 A. I saw him every day and he would ask me every day, "Stojan, do
4 your children have anything to eat and do you have any
5 problems?" And through the humanitarian aid he received he
6 supplied all the refugees. He did not care what ethnic group
7 they belonged to. They offered Croats just as much as he
8 offered me, precisely because they were of another ethnic group
9 so that no one could reproach him. Therefore, I got to know him
10 as a humane individual.
11 Q. Where would you see him in Kozarac?
12 A. In the school or he travelled by bus. He did not have a car of
13 his own. So he would use the bus regularly. His flat was in
15 Q. Do you know how often he came to Kozarac from Prijedor?
16 A. Regularly, and he would leave regularly too.
17 Q. How many times a week, approximately, would he come to Kozarac?
18 A. He would come in the morning and then he would go about midday,
19 2 or 3 o'clock when the bus left, I do not know exactly. Then
20 he would come back in the morning and so on.
21 Q. Do you know whether he ever stayed in Kozarac?
22 A. I cannot remember, nor did I notice him staying.
23 Q. Do you remember when he left Kozarac?
24 A. I do not know, only when I saw this case with him on television,
25 this surprised me. I did not know of this.
26 Q. When did you ----
27 A. I do not know what happened and what is happening now and all
28 this. It was a great surprise to me what happened to him.
1 Q. Can you remember for how long it was that you used to see Dusko
2 Tadic on a regular basis?
3 A. Whenever I needed help I would go to him, and I would find him
4 personally in his office.
5 Q. Can you remember over what period of time you used to see him in
7 A. I think it was the autumn, until the autumn, even it was winter
8 time too.
9 Q. You have told us that you arrived in October. Did you continue
10 to see Dusko Tadic during the rest of that year?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you see him during the following year 1993?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. Can you recall when he left Kozarac?
15 A. That I do not know, only when he said, "I will not be staying
16 here for long, I have to go to Prijedor", he just told me that
17 he does not like the war, absolutely not, nor the front.
18 MISS DE BERTODANO: Nothing further, your Honour.
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Cross-examination?
20 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour
21 Cross-Examined by Mr. Tieger.
22 Q. Mr. Smoljic, where was the accommodation that you eventually
23 found in Kozarac?
24 A. In Hasana Husinica Street.
25 Q. I am going to try to place that without the need to refer to a
26 map, if we can. Can you describe for us where your house is
27 relative to Marsala Tita Street, to the main street of Kozarac?
28 A. Just below the hospital.
1 Q. So, is it on the street which runs between the hospital and the
2 church, or is it on a street going in the other direction?
3 A. The other street, the blind alley. There is no asphalt. It is
4 a short street. You go under the hospital and in this way it is
5 a short street.
6 Q. Were you told who owned that house before you did, before you
7 occupied it?
8 A. No, I was not told but I learned later.
9 Q. How did you learn?
10 A. I learned that, men told me who had worked with those
11 people ----
12 Q. Who had ----
13 A. --- that they were good people.
14 Q. Who was the owner of that house?
15 A. Beslagic Hakija and Beslagic Hilmija.
16 Q. Did you learn their nationalities?
17 A. Muslims.
18 Q. Now you spoke about Dusko Tadic's position with the Local
19 Commune. Who were the other officials of the Kozarac area?
20 A. There was a Danijela, I forget her surname, a Montenegrin called
21 Cedo, Borko Dragicevic. They were there.
22 Q. The transcript or at least we heard you as saying "Borko"
23 Dragicevic. Is it possible that first name is Bosko?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. During the times you would see Dusko Tadic in October and
26 November, what was he wearing?
27 A. He was wearing civilian clothes.
28 Q. You indicated that you would see him whenever you needed help.
1 During the time after you arrived in Kozarac you were looking
2 for a job, is that right?
3 A. Yes, nothing was functioning then and I am still waiting.
4 I should have gone before a disability commission to give me an
5 easier job because I am disabled or to give me a disability
6 pension, but I do not know what is going to happen to me.
7 Where have I been? - nowhere. What have I been doing? -
9 Q. Did you travel out of Kozarac to look for work?
10 A. No, not yet because I co-operate with my neighbours and somehow
11 we get along. I get some humanitarian relief and we are somehow
13 Q. Can you describe the premises of the Local Commune in October
15 A. On the first floor, up the stairs and then to the right.
16 Q. What other offices or persons were located in the same building
17 in October 1992?
18 A. In which building, the school? There was a police checkpoint
19 and then they moved further down towards the veterinarian
21 Q. Now the humanitarian -- I am sorry, let me ask you one more
22 question. Were there any other officers or officials located in
23 the school?
24 A. No, no.
25 Q. The humanitarian aid that was distributed to you, where did that
26 come from, if you know?
27 A. From the humaneness of the world.
28 Q. Do you know whether or not that came from Prijedor, Banja Luka
1 or any other part, any other area adjacent to opstina Prijedor?
2 A. As far as I know, most of it came from Prijedor.
3 Q. Mr. Smoljic, on the occasions you saw Dusko Tadic ----
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. --- I take it that you would not see him at the moment he
6 arrived in Kozarac on any particular day, or on every single day
7 he came to Kozarac?
8 A. I saw him several times. Every day I would come by to see what
9 is new, because we cleaned the school a little bit and he would
10 call me in to help him to clean up and then he would say, "I am
11 late for the bus", and indeed I saw him going away by bus and
12 coming by bus in the morning.
13 Q. So you would be present when he arrived every morning by bus and
14 present when he departed?
15 A. I would come to clean up, to help cleaning up.
16 Q. You would be there every morning when he arrived and every late
17 morning or early afternoon when he departed?
18 A. Yes, to help him clean up. Yes, when he came in the morning
19 I would come by to see whether he has arrived. He would come by
20 bus. Sometimes he would come before me by bus and I would hear
21 the bus and sometimes I was there before him.
22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger, would you ask him for what period
23 of time this is. I know October/November, but was it any
24 later? I thought the witness had testified he saw him until
25 1993. So I want to know how long he saw him from October
26 through 1993.
27 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Smoljic, this was true for not only October and
28 November but for what period of time? How long did you continue
1 to see Dusko Tadic for every morning and every afternoon?
2 A. Even when the snow fell then we would be clearing up the snow
3 around the church. So it was during the winter time too.
4 Q. When did you stop seeing Dusko Tadic every morning when he
5 arrived and every afternoon when he left?
6 A. Because then I had work to do around my house, I did not have
7 time to go there. Sometimes he would give me the key to clean
8 up and I am in a hurry to catch my bus. I do not know any
9 more. As far as I was able to see, he used the bus regularly.
10 I do not know anything else. He would come to work and then
11 home to where he was living in Prijedor.
12 Q. When was it, what month, when you stopped seeing Dusko Tadic
13 this regularly?
14 A. I joined up with other people to help them to cut the firewood
15 and so on. Then I would collect firewood for myself. So I did
16 not have time, but I cannot remember when this happened and when
17 I heard about him. I cannot remember, but it was a shock
18 because he made no difference between Muslims and Croats. He
19 would give them humanitarian aid just as he gave to Serbs. In
20 fact, he gave them more so that nobody could reproach him
21 tomorrow. There was the Croat Grnic, you can ask them if I am
22 not telling the truth. Whenever he was distributing aid he
23 would give it to people who were in need.
24 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I thought we might finish but perhaps it is
25 better if we adjourn.
26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will adjourn until tomorrow at 10 o'clock.
27 Mr. Smoljic, you should return back to the location where you
28 are tomorrow, so that we can begin at 10 a.m. tomorrow. So we
1 will adjourn until tomorrow ----
2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: --- at 10 a.m. Mr. Niemann, tell me tomorrow
4 what is the Prosecution's position regarding the video
5 conferencing equipment. Thank you, sir, you are excused until
6 tomorrow at 10 a.m.
7 THE WITNESS: Thank you. The same to you. Thank you.
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will adjourn until tomorrow at 10.00 a.m.
9 (5.40 p.m.)
10 (The court adjourned until the following day).