1 Thursday, 17th October 1996.
2 (Open session)
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?
4 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. Your Honour asked me to address the
5 Court in terms of recalling these witnesses while the video link
6 is up and running. Your Honours, we fully appreciate the
7 difficulties of arranging video link at any other time other
8 than the present. We have turned our mind to the issue as best
9 we can.
10 At this stage it seems to us that there is one witness
11 that we would like recalled or possibly two. The witness that
12 we would want recalled is Mirko Vujanovic. We would anticipate
13 that if he could be made available tomorrow morning that would
14 certainly, as far as we can see the case developing, be suitable
15 for our purposes or whenever it is convenient to the Defence.
16 It may be also, your Honour, necessary for us to address some
17 questions to the witness Djuro Prpos, but I apprehend that the
18 Defence may be wanting to recall him in any event from something
19 that I have heard.
20 It may be that if he is recalled after the witness
21 Mirko Vujanovic, then if there are any issues outstanding we
22 wish to raise with the witness Prpos we could do that at that
23 stage. Alternatively, if the Defence wish to recall the witness
24 Prpos before Vujanovic is recalled, then we would ask that Prpos
25 at least be available so that if there are outstanding matters
26 we can deal with that with the witness Prpos.
27 Your Honours, it is only one issue that we wish to
1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Have you spoken with the Defence about this?
2 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour, we have not had the opportunity.
3 MR. KAY: No, but there is no difficulty. I, in fact, spoke to
4 Mr. Wladimiroff in Banja Luka yesterday and suggested that
5 Mr. Prpos be made available anyway and come back to the video
6 link studio today. I do not know whether he has arrived there
7 yet. I anticipate there is no difficulty in getting Vujanovic
8 back and it may be sensible to cause that to happen today, so
9 that if there is free time for today's court sitting that we can
10 deal with these matters as quickly as possible.
11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Did you intend on recalling Mr. Prpos?
12 MR. KAY: Yes, we have the unredacted copies, well, some pages of the
13 unredacted copies. It might be helpful to clear up one or two
14 matters in the Bench's mind, as I anticipate it.
15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I also enquired about the availability of the
16 video conferencing equipment beyond Friday or tomorrow or
17 Saturday, and I am told that it could be made available at a
18 later date. So I was under the understanding that we only had
19 the time for a week but that may not be the case. So, if the
20 Prosecution needs it at a later date, arrangements can be made
21 as far as the technical facilities. We still would have to ask
22 Mr. Marro or someone to go back, but that can be arranged. So,
23 right now you are talking about two witnesses and that may have
24 been resolved as we proceed. If there is a need, then let us
25 know as soon as possible. I have not spoken with Mr. Marro
26 about this, just really the technical people.
27 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, on that point, the reason why -- there is
28 no secret about this -- we are asking these witnesses not to be
1 released is because we do not know what witnesses subsequently
2 are going to say. It may be something arises by a later witness
3 which we would have wanted to have dealt with in
4 cross-examination of witnesses that we have already dealt with
5 so far. That is why we have asked they are not released.
6 There is a difficulty in the sense that there are
7 witnesses to be called next week, and it may possibly arise that
8 something occurs in their evidence which would want us to have
9 called some of witnesses that have been dealt with by a video
10 link. In that event and if that occurred, it seemed to us, your
11 Honour, rather than reconstitute the whole arrangement down in
12 Banja Luka that we could deal with that on the basis of a
13 deposition, a video taped deposition, with the co-operation of
14 the Defence and dispose of it in that way. That would certainly
15 be much more convenient and probably far less expensive than
16 having to set up the whole arrangement again.
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I appreciate your reasonableness, but we were
18 just planning really to see what would happen. So we have
19 resolved the issue at least for two witnesses and we will see
20 where we are with respect to the additional witnesses of the
22 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, while I am on my feet, there is just one
23 matter I wish to raise. I understand from my friend that the
24 witness Budimir, it is unresolved as yet as to whether he is to
25 be disposed of by video link or whether he is to be called. I
26 just wish it to be recorded on the record that our preference is
27 that he be called here in The Hague. Even if there is time
28 available under the video link and even if he could give the
1 evidence that way, our preference certainly is for him to come
2 to The Hague, if that is at all possible.
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
4 MR. KAY: Your Honour, it is our preference as well and we
5 anticipated he would be giving evidence in The Hague. Exhibits
6 that he was to deal with are all here in The Hague. The
7 position is this, that Mr. Wladimiroff saw the Minister of
8 Interior last week to negotiate to get the witnesses to this
9 Court, and he said that police witnesses were civil servants and
10 would not be released and were not permitted to leave the
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Budimir is a police witness?
13 MR. KAY: He is a civil servant. He works for the Ministry of
14 Defence. One does not know whether they are aware that
15 Mr. Budimir is potentially a witness and may stop him from
16 coming or not.
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: So you do not know yet whether he would be
18 prohibited from coming?
19 MR. KAY: No.
20 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We were surprisingly successful in asking for
21 the complete documents that were contained in whatever they
22 were, the Defence Exhibits, and that has given me some hope. So
23 perhaps we can ask Mr. Budimir or the Ministry of Defence to
24 release him so that he may come to The Hague, since it is the
25 preference of the Defence and the preference of the Prosecutor.
26 It seems like if we ask, maybe we get what we want. So, we are
27 willing to ask.
28 MR. KAY: Yes. Mr. Wladimiroff is going there this morning again to
1 deal with these matters.
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No, I mean the Tribunal.
3 MR. KAY: Certainly we have asked all these witnesses, your Honour,
4 on many occasions.
5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: If you will give us the necessary particulars,
6 perhaps we will draft a letter to the Ministry of Defence and
7 ask that the witness be permitted to come to The Hague at the
8 request of both the Defence, the Prosecution and the Tribunal.
9 MR. KAY: Yes.
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will do that then. If you will give me the
11 information, I will do it at a recess or over the lunch break.
12 Is there anything else, Mr. Niemann?
13 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honour. Mr. Tieger has told me that he will
14 be working with the witness Vujanovic. He has said that should
15 the matter arise whereby it is an easy choice between whether he
16 is called today or tomorrow, Mr. Tieger would like an
17 opportunity to have tonight so he could prepare for the witness
18 tomorrow, but it depends on how it transpires, your Honour.
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is Mr. Vujanovic available tomorrow?
20 MR. KAY: I do not know, your Honour.
21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Can you enquire and let us know at a recess or
22 this afternoon? Is there anything else?
23 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Marro, would you bring in Mr. Smoljic?
25 Mr. Tieger, you were questioning Mr. Smoljic on
26 cross-examination. Would you bring in Mr. Smoljic, please,
27 Mr. Marro? Mr. Marro, would you please bring in Mr. Smoljic?
28 Mr. Marro, would you please bring in Mr. Smoljic? Mr. Marro, we
1 can hear you. Can you hear us?
2 MR. MARRO: We have no audio. We just read the transcript and the
3 transcript was interrupted during a long time.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Marro?
5 MR. MARRO: May I summarise because we do not hear you. If
6 I understood well, the Prosecutor will call this afternoon
7 Mr. Prpos and perhaps Mr. Vujanovic and this is the position
8 today to have a deposition done with Budimir. Is it true you
9 are planning to have ----
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Not exactly. Mr. Budimir, we are still working
11 to determine whether we can ask him to come to The Hague. We
12 will draft some correspondence relating to Mr. Budimir.
13 Mr. Prpos, I understand from the Defence, they are attempting to
14 get him back to ask him additional questions and then the
15 Prosecution would then cross-examine him this afternoon.
16 Mr. Vujanovic, the preference of the Prosecutor is that he be
17 called tomorrow.
18 MR. TIEGER: I think he will read it on the transcript.
19 MR. MARRO: [Interrupted transmission]: Regarding Mr. Budimir,
20 Mr. Wladimiroff is in a position -- today and Prpos will be this
21 afternoon and Mr. Vujanovic tomorrow. If we can ask your
22 Honour -- we just have the transcript -- and we have a technical
23 problem. We do apply for a little recess because there is a
24 technical problem. We do not -- the witness at the moment at
26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We are prepared to assist Mr. Wladimiroff in
27 asking Mr. Budimir to come to The Hague. If necessary, the
28 Trial Chamber will draft a letter to the Ministry of Defence, if
1 that will assist in getting his presence here. So, I suppose at
2 the present time we will just stand in recess and wait for the
3 audio from your location to be resolved. We will stand in
4 recess for 15 minutes. Very good. Thank you.
5 (Adjourned for a short time).
6 (1035 a.m.)
7 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Marro, would you please call Mr. Smoljic?
8 MR. STOJAN SMOLJIC, recalled.
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Smoljic, you understand that you are still
10 under the oath that you took yesterday to tell the truth? Do
11 you understand that?
12 THE WITNESS [In translation]: Yes.
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. Thank you. Mr. Tieger, you may
15 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, your Honour.
16 Cross-Examined by MR. TIEGER, continued.
17 Q. Mr. Smoljic, can you tell us if you know where the offices of
18 the local SDS were in Kozarac when you arrived in October 1992?
19 A. The office of SDS was also in the school of Kozarac.
20 Q. Can you tell us who ----
21 A. Since I was not a member of SDS, they did hold meetings there,
22 but I would only come to clean up.
23 Q. Can you tell us who some of the officials of the local SDS were?
24 A. I cannot tell you that because I was not a member myself.
25 Q. Can you tell us who some of the persons who were often in the
26 office of the local SDS were?
27 A. People would come in even from Prijedor to see Dusan Tadic. He
28 would just tell me members of the SDS were coming in, and I do
1 not know who was who and what they were doing.
2 Q. Were weapons kept in the offices of the local SDS?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Were there objects of value kept in the offices of the local
6 A. No, I do not remember.
7 Q. Other than the officials you mentioned yesterday, Danijela, Cedo
8 and Dragicevic, can you recall any other officials of Kozarac
9 from the Local Commune or the SDS?
10 A. I told you, I do not know anybody from the SDS. I do not know
11 who was a member of the SDS. I cannot explain that to you.
12 Q. Certainly, sir.
13 A. If I knew I would tell you.
14 Q. What about from the officials of the Local Commune, any other
15 officials other than the ones you mentioned yesterday?
16 A. I cannot tell you really, only those people I told you about.
17 I really do not know anybody else or anything else.
18 Q. Do you recall a referendum which was held in March 1993 -- March
19 or May 1993, excuse me.
20 A. Officials of the SDS or members of the local community?
21 Q. No, a vote that was held in Kozarac that was organised in
22 Kozarac as a referendum on the general question of joining in a
23 peace plan?
24 A. Yes ----
25 Q. Who organised that? I am sorry, I interrupted you. Please
27 A. Please let me tell you. I was doing something at the moment and
28 I imagine new members were elected and Dusan Tadic was there
1 too. He was chosen. He was Secretary of the Local Community,
2 and Ranko Djurdjevic was also chosen, elected, and -- [another
3 name the English interpreter could not hear] -- Dane
4 Besarab. Ranko Djurdjevic is from Valovica(?) -- [the English
5 interpreter is not sure].
6 Q. Do you recall what month the referendum was held?
7 A. It was March or May. I just remember that I was concerned over
8 my family to feed them. I had nothing left.
9 Q. Do you recall in what year you last saw Dusko Tadic in Kozarac?
10 A. In '93, the end of '93, autumn, so I cannot really remember the
11 exact month.
12 Q. You indicated yesterday, I believe, that you had seen something
13 about the case on television. Were you referring to this case,
15 A. I did refer to this case, because I found out what was happening
16 to him. That absolutely came as a surprise to me.
17 Q. Where did you see portions of this case on television? Where
18 were you?
19 MISS DE BERTODANO: Your Honour, I do not think the witness has said
20 that he has seen portions of the case on the television. As
21 I recollect -----
22 THE WITNESS: Accidentally at my neighbour's.
23 MISS DE BERTODANO: I am trying to find the part of the transcript
24 but, as I recollect ----
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Smoljic, please, just a moment. Do not
26 continue to testify.
27 MISS DE BERTODANO: As I recollect, he was talking about the arrest
28 and not the case, but I cannot find it in the transcript.
1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I do not remember. Yesterday I think he did
2 say the arrest. I do not recall.
3 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, my recollection is "case" rather than
4 "arrest", but in any event I think this witness has clarified
5 the question with the most recent answer.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss de Bertodano? OK. We will proceed.
7 THE WITNESS: I would see that at my neighbour's.
8 MR. TIEGER: Which neighbour was that, sir?
9 A. [redacted]
14 [redacted]. That is exactly the way it was, and accidentally we saw
15 on television that there was this arrest in Germany of Dusan
16 Tadic, and I cannot remember the month when this happened, but
17 I could not believe it before I saw it.
18 Q. You are also aware that the proceedings of this trial are
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you watch portions of this trial with [redacted]?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did you watch portions of this trial anywhere in Kozarac?
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is that a redaction problem? I was just trying
25 to remember. OK. We will keep track of the time.
26 THE WITNESS: Yes, I had an old man, my wife's father, and he
27 accidentally came in with his TV set. So, again it was just by
28 accident that I saw this on TV, but I really have other
1 problems, but this was really a great surprise to me.
2 Q. Were you aware of other neighbours in Kozarac watching these
3 proceedings on television?
4 A. I do not think so. Everybody was wondering what was going on,
5 what is this. It was really a surprise because he absolutely
6 did not want to go and fight in the war, and he would tell
7 everybody that he was afraid of the war and that he was afraid
8 of fighting the war, absolutely. Everybody kept saying the same
9 thing, and until the present day people are wondering why did
10 they arrest this man because he was only in Kozarac, everybody
11 says that -- he was not in Kozarac, everybody says that.
12 Q. Sir, yesterday you mentioned that there was a time after your
13 arrival in Kozarac that you joined with other people to cut
15 A. I had to; I had to cut firewood. I had to do everything so that
16 I could support my family. There are eight family members in my
17 family; I had to.
18 Q. The winters, of course, in Bosnia are quite cold, and most of
19 the heating ----
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. --- in the houses is done by fire, is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you remember ----
24 A. There was hardly any electricity then. There was hardly any
25 electricity then during the war operations.
26 Q. So people needed to cut and prepare firewood for the winter?
27 A. Yes.
28 Q. Do you remember when you joined these people to cut the firewood
1 for the winter?
2 A. I joined that winter, this first winter, so that I could get
3 something for myself because I had no other way of obtaining
4 firewood. Other people had horses and horse drawn carriages and
5 I wanted to provide for my family.
6 Q. Do you know whether that was some time before Dan Republike?
7 A. I cannot remember that.
8 MR. TIEGER: I have nothing further, thank you.
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss de Bertodano?
10 MISS DE BERTODANO: Yes, one matter, your Honour.
11 Re-examined by MISS DE BERTODANO
12 Q. Mr. Smoljic, you told us that you used to work cleaning in the
13 school. Were you paid for this work?
14 A. It is a normal thing. I was paid. He would give me rations so
15 that I could give that to my family, but he did not pay more
16 attention to me. I said yesterday that absolutely he gave
17 preference to Croats and Muslims. I mean, I know only Croats --
18 Bergic was the name -- and he told the old woman and this
19 woman: "It is not important who people are; we are all human
20 beings made of flesh and blood, and absolutely I understand the
21 point that people have reached", and he really did not pay
22 attention at all as to whether somebody was a Croat or a Muslim
23 or a Serb. He even gave more to their side so that no one would
24 reproach him. I guarantee that.
25 Q. By "he" you mean Dusko Tadic?
26 A. Yes.
27 MISS DE BERTODANO: Nothing further, your Honour.
28 THE WITNESS: That man.
1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Tieger?
2 Further cross-examined by MR. TIEGER
3 Q. Mr. Smoljic, how many Muslims lived in Kozarac when you arrived
4 in October 1992?
5 A. I do not know. I cannot tell you. I do not know. I knew some
6 people in passing. I just remember the Croats who stayed on
7 here. In Kozarac there are some young people and an old woman,
8 an old lady. She is still around. Anybody can ask her. I know
9 what it was like because I was personally told: "Come on,
10 Smoljic, help me, please, because there are so many things to
11 do", and I came to help so many times. I came to help him so
12 many times, and I can only say thank you to him and all credit
13 is due to him. He did not save only my family, but all families
14 within the scope of his possibilities.
15 Q. Can you give us the name of one Muslim who lived in Kozarac when
16 you arrived there in October 1992?
17 A. I cannot remember. Maybe I would recognise him, you know, by
18 sight. I would recognise him, but I cannot now. I am not from
19 the Prijedor region. I am from the Jajce region. When I was
20 expelled, everything was burnt down, everything I owned, and I
21 watched it with my very own eyes. It was up to here really.
22 MR. TIEGER: I have nothing further. Thank you.
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss de Bertodano?
24 MISS DE BERTODANO: Nothing arising, your Honour.
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mr. Smoljic being
26 permanently excused?
27 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I do not think so, but since because of the
28 video link issue, perhaps it is better for just the remaining
1 rest of the week to keep him available. I really do not foresee
2 an issue and under ordinary circumstances I would not, but I am
3 concerned about the video link issue.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: This week are you talking about or next week as
6 THE WITNESS: The question, what issue?
7 MR. TIEGER: Yes, your Honour, just the remainder of the week.
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Smoljic, you are free to leave. However,
9 you should continue to make yourself available through the end
10 of this week until the end of tomorrow, because you may be asked
11 to return for testimony. So keep in touch with Mr. Wladimiroff,
12 please, and if it is necessary then you will be recalled
13 tomorrow for testimony. Thank you very much. You are excused
15 THE WITNESS: No problem whatsoever. Thank you very much also.
17 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Goodbye.
18 (The witness withdrew)
19 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, the redaction is that at, let us see,
20 10.56.02 and then 10.57.08?
21 MR. KAY: Your Honour, it is ----
22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I will pass this to you and, Mr. Tieger, you
23 can also look at this.
24 MR. KAY: Your Honour, there be 10.56.14 and 18 as well which are
25 identifying features.
26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That redaction then will be granted.
27 MR. KAY: I am much obliged to your Honour.
28 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: You may call your next witness but before you
1 do, if we finish the testimony of the witnesses you planned to
2 offer via video link, can we then go forward with the other
3 witnesses you have listed with next week or were they coming
4 this weekend?
5 MR. KAY: They are coming this weekend, your Honour.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Then you may call your next witness.
7 MR. KAY: I call Jelena Gajic.
8 JELENA GAJIC, called.
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Marro, would you please administer the oath
10 to Mrs. Gajic?
11 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak
12 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
13 (The witness was sworn)
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. Mr. Kay, you may begin.
15 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.
16 Examined by MR. KAY
17 Q. Is your name Jelena Gajic?
18 A. Yes. Yes.
19 Q. Do you live in Prijedor?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you work at the hospital in Prijedor?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. How old are you, Mrs. Gajic?
24 A. I am 39.
25 Q. Are you the sister of Mira Tadic?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Do you know Dusko Tadic?
28 A. I do.
1 Q. For how long have you known him?
2 A. I have known him since childhood.
3 Q. Do you originate from the village of Vidovici?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. When the conflict occurred in Kozarac on 24th May 1992,
6 whereabouts were you?
7 A. On 24th May 1992 I was in Prijedor.
8 Q. Mrs. Gajic, I will ask this question again. On 24th May 1992,
9 what were you doing in Prijedor?
10 A. On 24th May when the attack on Kozarac occurred, I was at the
11 hospital doing my job.
12 Q. What is your job?
13 A. I am an anaesthetist.
14 Q. Are you a qualified anaesthetist or do you work as a nurse?
15 A. Yes, I am a nurse/anaesthetist.
16 Q. Thank you. The attack on Kozarac took place on that day, as you
17 know. When had you last seen Dusko Tadic before that attack
18 took place?
19 A. I saw him on 23rd May, a Saturday.
20 Q. So that was the day before, was it?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Whereabouts did you see him on 23rd May?
23 A. In my flat in Prijedor.
24 Q. What time of day was that?
25 A. It was about 9.30 or 10 o'clock in the morning. I do not
26 recollect the exact time.
27 Q. Was Dusko Tadic on his own or with anyone?
28 A. He came alone to see me.
1 Q. Whereabouts is your flat in relation to the railway station in
3 A. It is about 10 minutes walking distance.
4 Q. How long did Dusko Tadic stay at your flat for on that morning?
5 A. About two hours.
6 Q. Can you recollect at what time he left the flat?
7 A. About 11.30.
8 Q. Do you know why he visited you on that morning?
9 A. He came to see me because he had left Kozarac ----
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Excuse me----
11 THE WITNESS: --- that morning.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: --- Mr. Kay, this witness was originally going
13 to testify, I guess, here in The Hague. Have you filed a motion
14 requesting that she be allowed to give her testimony via video
15 link? We do not have one on file. I wish to enquire and then
16 determine whether there is an objection from the Prosecution.
17 MR. KAY: I think that was done by Mr. Wladimiroff some weeks ago.
18 This witness was scheduled for the second week of the case, and
19 it was known then that arrangements would have to be changed.
20 I have not attended to this detail myself, your Honour.
21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It does not necessarily matter if there is no
22 objection. We had No. 28 on the Defence witness list and then
23 No. 41.
24 MR. KAY: It was the same time as witness T, your Honour. It was the
25 same ----
26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to this witness giving
27 testimony via video link?
28 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honour would excuse me a moment?
1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: I suppose, in the interests of time, I just
2 overrule the objection!
3 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honour, we would like to know the reason. We are
4 checking our papers.
5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: What we have is the fourth motion for
6 protection of witnesses and in that we have mention of Mr. Maric
7 and witness T, is that right?
8 MISS FEATHERSTONE: Yes.
9 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: That was filed on 9th October. So that is what
10 we have.
11 MR. KAY: Yes, your Honour. I am afraid I have not attended to this
12 detail so I cannot give the answer to the Court. I know the
13 reason myself why this witness was unable to travel. She was
14 originally scheduled for The Hague, as your Honour knows.
15 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes.
16 MR. KAY: That was an agreement, me having seen her, that she was
17 going to come, but a change came about.
18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Obviously. She is listed as coming on the
19 original list and the last motion involved two other witnesses.
20 MR. KAY: She has been on our video link list for some considerable
21 time -- I think for a couple of weeks since that list was
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Why do not we stand in recess for 15
24 minutes ----
25 MR. NIEMANN: Our position on this, your Honours, is that we consider
26 the video link is an exceptional circumstance. If there is an
27 exceptional circumstance why a witness should give evidence via
28 video link, then that is the fine. The matter can be dealt with
1 on that basis.
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Can we proceed without sound for a moment so
3 that you can offer the reason? Typically, it would be filed in
4 a confidential motion and, since we do not have it in a motion,
5 let us go without sound and let us hear from you then, Mr. Kay.
6 MR. KAY: I will switch my microphone off and make an oral motion.
1 (Private session)
13 Page 7283 redacted in Private Session
13 page 7284 redacted in private session
1 (Open Session)
2 JELENA GAJIC, continued.
3 Examined by MR. KAY, continued
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We are in open session. Mrs. Gajic, the Judges
5 and the lawyers were talking about a matter and that is -- can
6 you hear me?
7 THE WITNESS: Yes.
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We were talking about a matter and we will now,
9 however, continue with the testimony. Mr. Kay?
10 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.
11 Q. Can you tell us why Dusko Tadic came to your house that morning
12 on 23rd May 1992?
13 A. He came because we were good friends and we were close to the
14 station. That is why.
15 Q. Did he say where he had come from?
16 A. He said he came from Kozarac.
17 Q. When he left your house some two hours later, did he say where
18 he was going to?
19 A. He said he was going to the railway station and if there was a
20 train for Banja Luka that he was going there with his family.
21 Q. When had you last seen the family of Dusko Tadic, being your
22 sister and the children, at this time in May 1992?
23 A. Before that.
24 Q. Yes. Can you recollect ----
25 A. At the beginning of May I saw them.
26 Q. Did you speak to your sister by telephone during that time in
27 May 1992?
28 A. When they left Kozarac or -- I am afraid the question is not
1 clear to me.
2 Q. When you saw your sister at the beginning of May, whereabouts
3 did you see her?
4 A. At our mother's, in our family home.
5 Q. At Vidovici?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did you speak to your sister over the telephone during May 1992
8 after this time that you had seen them?
9 A. No.
10 Q. When did you next see Dusko Tadic after he had left your house
11 on 23rd May 1992?
12 A. I saw him somewhere in mid June, but I cannot recollect the
13 exact date.
14 Q. Whereabouts did you see him?
15 A. In my apartment again. He came to see me.
16 Q. Why had he come to see you then?
17 A. He came to visit us to see how we felt, how we were doing after
18 all the turmoil in Prijedor.
19 Q. Do you know where your sister was living in that period before
20 you saw Dusko Tadic in mid June?
21 A. I learnt that she was living in Banja Luka in a house.
22 Q. When you saw Dusko Tadic in mid June, how often did you see him
23 after that time?
24 A. I would see him often. He would come by. When he moved to
25 Prijedor, then he went back to Banja Luka, and then when he came
26 back to live in Prijedor we would see each other often.
27 Q. Did you see your sister during this period of time as well?
28 A. Yes, when she moved to Prijedor.
1 Q. Can you remember when she moved to Prijedor?
2 A. At the end of June roughly, somewhere about there.
3 Q. Did you know where she went to live?
4 A. She lived at Pecani.
5 Q. Do you know how long she lived in Pecani for?
6 A. About one year.
7 Q. When you saw Dusko Tadic in Prijedor from mid June, do you know
8 what work he was doing at that time.
9 A. He joined the reserve police force.
10 Q. Did you ever see him working as a reserve policeman?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you ever see him in any other job later on in the year?
13 A. I did in Kozarac, in the Local Community.
14 Q. What did you see him doing in the Local Community?
15 A. He was Secretary of the Local Community. He received refugees
16 and he accommodated them in houses.
17 Q. How was it that you saw him doing that work in Kozarac?
18 A. Because I went to visit my mother and he helped me reach my
20 Q. Was there a period of time when you did not visit your mother at
21 Vidovici during this time?
22 A. No, I did not go for a long time, for about a month.
23 Q. Can you tell us when that was?
24 A. I cannot remember, but maybe it was August, September, something
25 like that. I do not remember.
26 MR. KAY: Thank you. That is all I ask.
27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Cross-examination?
28 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honour would excuse me a moment?
1 Cross-examined by MR. NIEMANN
2 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour.
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We thought we could work through lunch since we
4 have had so many interruptions, if it is acceptable? We will
5 see how we go. So, Mr. Niemann, you may continue. I said
6 "through lunch", I did not mean through lunch, I meant "to
7 lunch". That is why I got that expression. Sorry, go ahead.
8 MR. NIEMANN: Madam, do you have any brothers?
9 A. I have a brother.
10 Q. What is his name?
11 A. Vidovic, Mirko.
12 Q. What is your husband's name?
13 A. Gajic, Ratko.
14 Q. Through May to August 1992 where did you work?
15 A. At the hospital in Prijedor.
16 Q. You actually worked on the premises there at the hospital?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You did not have occasion to work in another location apart from
19 just at the hospital premises?
20 A. No.
21 MR. NIEMANN: I have no further questions, your Honour.
22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
23 MR. KAY: No re-examination, your Honour.
24 Examined by the Court
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mrs. Gajic, I just have a couple of questions.
26 When did you visit your mother? You said after you visited her
27 you went on to Kozarac. When was that?
28 A. I passed through Kozarac when I go to visit my mother. I went
1 to see Dusko Tadic and he drove me and my mother to our -- me
2 and my sister to my mother's. This was somewhere in August or
3 September. I cannot exactly recollect the date.
4 Q. Did your mother live in Banja Luka with your sister?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Had she ever lived there either in Banja Luka or Prijedor with
7 your sister and Mr. Tadic?
8 A. No.
9 Q. She was living in Vidovici then?
10 A. Yes.
11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you. I have no further questions.
12 Mr. Kay?
13 MR. KAY: No, thank you, your Honour.
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?
15 MR. NIEMANN: Nothing further, your Honour.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mrs. Gajic being
17 permanently excused?
18 MR. NIEMANN: There is, your Honour, but on the basis that if it is
19 necessary for us to pursue that after the video link has been
20 disconnected, we will deal with it by way of deposition.
21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mrs. Gajic, you are excused. It is possible
22 that you will be asked to give additional testimony by way of a
23 deposition. So you should keep in touch with Mr. Wladimiroff
24 and if you are asked to give additional testimony by that means,
25 you will be told. Is that acceptable with you?
26 THE WITNESS: Yes.
27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you very much for coming. You are now
1 THE WITNESS: Thank you. Goodbye. Thank you. Goodbye.
2 (The witness withdrew)
3 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, would you call your next witness,
5 MR. KAY: Jovo Samardija.
6 JOVO SAMARDIJA, called.
7 MR. KEEGAN: He will be just a moment, your Honour.
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Marro, would you please ask Mr. Samardija
9 to take the oath?
10 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I solemnly declare that I will speak
11 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
12 (The witness was sworn)
13 Examined by MR. KAY
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, you may begin.
15 MR. KAY: Thank you, your Honour.
16 Q. Is your name Jovo Samardija?
17 A. It is.
18 Q. Are you a retired army officer?
19 A. I am.
20 Q. Did you retire as an army officer in 1958?
21 A. No, in 1965. It is a mistake but that does not matter. It is
22 not important.
23 Q. Do you know Dusko Tadic?
24 A. I do.
25 Q. How long have you known him?
26 A. Well, you see, I know his parents too. His father and I were
27 together in the Second World War. So I went to visit and I knew
28 his wife and children. Ever since his birth I know him. We
1 were not constantly together, but whenever I would come, and I
2 came three or four times a year, I would see them.
3 Q. Do you live in Banja Luka?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. Was there a time when you lived in Kamicani?
6 A. Yes, I did, before the war, before the Second World War. That
7 is where my family is from, my father, mother, sister and
9 Q. Did your family house remain in Kamicani during the recent
10 period before the conflict started in Kozarac?
11 A. No, it was set on fire. It was burnt down.
12 Q. When was it burnt down?
13 A. I think when the war began here in these parts, in '92.
14 Q. Did your sister live in Kozarac?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Was she living in Kozarac until the recent conflict in Kozarac?
17 A. In Kamicani actually, but they are very close. Yes, she did
18 live there.
19 Q. Whereabouts is your sister now?
20 A. I could not tell you. When the Muslims left Kozarac, they were
21 thrown out, then she went with them and I learnt from UNPROFOR
22 or, rather, the Red Cross that she was in Zenica for a time.
23 This year I heard nothing about her, whether she is in Zenica or
24 left, I do not know. She has not called.
25 Q. Is your ethnic background that of Serbian?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Presumably, your sister is Serbian as well?
28 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you remember when the conflict broke out in the region of
2 Kozarac in 1992?
3 A. Well, I am not so sure. I was in a hospital, in the military
4 hospital, in Sarajevo. I had a stroke, and I know it was in
5 May, but I do not know the exact date. I should know, but I did
6 not pay attention. I did not try to remember.
7 Q. Did you ever visit the collection centre at Trnopolje?
8 A. I did.
9 Q. Can you remember when that was?
10 A. In the course of that month of the fighting, when the fighting
11 began and the collection centre was formed there.
12 Q. Do you know how long after the collection centre had been formed
13 it was that you went and visited the place at Trnopolje?
14 A. Maybe a month, roughly, because she was there too.
15 Q. I was going to ask you that. Why did you visit this place?
16 A. I heard that the sister of mine who was in Kamicani was also in
17 the collection centre and, as I was a Serb, there was no danger
18 for me to go there and to get her out. I went there and I did
19 not find her. She had already left.
20 Q. Did you go with anyone there?
21 A. I went with Dusko Tadic.
22 Q. Did you go there from Banja Luka or anywhere else?
23 A. From Banja Luka.
24 Q. Did you go with Dusko Tadic from Banja Luka?
25 A. Yes, I did.
26 Q. Did you go from your house or any other place when you left on
27 that day that you went to Trnopolje?
28 A. Well, you see, I do not remember. He lived nearby, maybe 50
1 metres away, where he was staying in the yard. But, anyway,
2 that is where we took -- we started out from, to the railway
3 station. Then we went by train and then we went there.
4 Q. Did you then go from the place where he was staying, 50 metres
5 from your home?
6 A. I really could not say, but being an elderly man he probably
7 came to pick me up. I cannot guarantee it. I cannot say 100
8 per cent, but it is customary here for the older people, for
9 younger people to come to the older people.
10 Q. How did you know he was living nearby?
11 A. He came there with his family and he had a brother nearby, and
12 he went to stay with his brother and those friends. So I knew
13 him from before, both him and his wife.
14 Q. On that day you went to Trnopolje for how long did you stay at
16 A. Well, you see, I cannot tell exactly precisely, but we got there
17 about 8.00, 8.30 by train, and we stayed until 1.00 or perhaps
18 2.00 p.m. and we returned the same day.
19 Q. What did you do in the collection centre at Trnopolje?
20 A. Well, I just said I had heard that my sister was there from some
21 Muslims from Kozarac who came to Banja Luka, that she was in
22 this collection centre in Trnopolje, that she had gone there
23 with the Muslims. I went to look for her and to bring her to my
24 place, but I did not find her.
25 Q. What was the reason for Dusko Tadic going with you?
26 A. I asked him to come with me.
27 Q. Why was that?
28 A. Well, you see, it was a war zone at the time and he had weapons
1 and a uniform. So I asked him to come with me. I felt freer
2 when somebody was coming with me who was armed and that is why
3 I asked him to come with me.
4 Q. What weapon did he take with him?
5 A. He had a semi-automatic rifle.
6 Q. What uniform did he wear?
7 A. A military uniform.
8 Q. What colour was that?
9 A. SMB, SMB colour that our army wears.
10 Q. Could you describe it for us? Is it one colour or several
12 A. It is one colour, one colour, the same colour both trousers and
14 Q. Were there many people at the collection centre in Trnopolje on
15 this day that you visited it?
16 A. Yes, there were many, all my neighbours. Believe me, I cried.
17 I could not count them because they were my good friends in that
18 collection centre, men and women and children. I grew up with
19 them in Kamicani, and there they were in prison and I was free.
20 Q. Did Dusko Tadic help you to look for your sister in the camp
21 whilst you were there?
22 A. I did not need his assistance then because it was not so
23 strict. I could walk about. I told the guard whom I was
24 looking for and he just pointed and said, "You go over there and
25 look", and when I came across acquaintances then Paso Softic, a
26 neighbour of mine, said, "Dara has left", my sister's name was
27 Dara, with transport to Banja Luka, but it did not stop at Banja
28 Luka, it went on to Zenica.
1 Q. When you left Trnopolje on this occasion did you go back to
2 Banja Luka?
3 A. I did. I went back home immediately.
4 Q. Did Dusko Tadic go back to Banja Luka with you?
5 A. Yes. Yes, he came with me.
6 Q. When you arrived in Banja Luka did you go back to your home?
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 Q. Where did Dusko Tadic go?
9 A. He walked me to my house. We had a cup of coffee and then he
10 went off to his place. I saw him again tomorrow, the next day.
11 Q. Was he staying in Banja Luka at this time?
12 A. Yes, he was.
13 Q. Who was he staying with?
14 A. With his wife and children, his family.
15 Q. Whilst you were at Trnopolje with him, do you know what he did?
16 A. He was with me. He talked to the guards. I was not showing any
17 interest. I was talking to my acquaintances, my neighbours.
18 Besima Turkanovic, the neighbour and the name I mentioned. They
19 were there with their children and with their wives, but he was
20 there with me nearby. We were together all the time.
21 Q. Was he mistreating anybody at the camp whilst you were there?
22 A. No. No, no, no. He would not dare in front of me because
23 I knew those people. I would never let him doing anything.
24 I can tell you for sure that he did not.
25 MR. KAY: Thank you. That is all I ask. Wait there, please.
26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Cross-examination Mr. Niemann?
27 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, your Honour.
28 Cross-Examined by Mr. Niemann.
1 Q. When you saw Dusko Tadic in this uniform when he took you to
2 Trnopolje, was he part of the military forces so far as you
4 A. As far as I know, no.
5 Q. You said that he stayed with his brother in Banja Luka. Do you
6 know how long he stayed with his brother?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. How long did he stay with his brother?
9 A. Well, to tell you the truth, I really do not how long, but
10 I know that he was there and his wife and his children and how
11 long he was there, personally whether he was there all the time
12 or not, I told you I had this stroke, I told you beforehand, and
13 I really did not go out of the house much. So for how long he
14 exactly stayed there I really could not tell you.
15 Q. What did you think that Dusko Tadic could do for you when you
16 went to the camp at Trnopolje?
17 A. Listen, I asked Dusko Tadic to come with me because I felt freer
18 if I went with him, and it was not that he could do something
19 better for me than I could do for myself.
20 Q. The uniform that you saw him wearing, did he have any insignia
21 or marks upon that uniform?
22 A. No, no. You mean insignia, no, no.
23 Q. When you went to the camp what were the conditions like there?
24 A. Specifically I came to look for my sister. I reported to the
25 guard and I could walk around wherever I wanted to, but I would
26 not -- when Paso told me that she had left the day before
27 yesterday I did not. I mean, had she been there, but I did not
28 walk around the camp. The soldiers were having lunch precisely
1 at that time. They asked me to have lunch with them. They
2 called Dusko too. I did not want to have any lunch then, I was
3 not hungry. I left and I went to the station. I sat around a
4 bit there with Dusko and we talked to a woman who had lived
6 Q. When you went to this camp, when you first arrived did Dusko
7 speak to anyone?
8 A. No. You mean apart from me? No. No, apart from me.
9 Q. You said that you saw him speaking to the guards. That was
10 later, was it?
11 A. That was later. They knew each other. These young men were
12 also there from Kozarac, from those villages, Jaruga, Garevci,
13 because before the war broke out he had a cafe and they probably
14 all knew each other.
15 Q. Do you know the names of any of the guards at the camp that you
16 either saw or you saw Dusko Tadic talking to?
17 A. No. No, I did not know that. Listen, I am from Kozarac, from
18 Kamicani and I left in 1941. This was, if I remember correctly,
19 in '92. So you can imagine how long that was, how many years
20 had gone by. People changed. I mean these people were not even
21 born in 1941. So I did not know them.
22 Q. But you knew where they came from?
23 A. Yes, I know that those guards are from that area, from the
24 Prijedor opstina, but what their names were, who they were
25 exactly, I could not tell you exactly. I did talk to them.
26 They knew me and my sister but, believe me, I did not know them and
27 I do not know them until the present day.
28 Q. When you spoke to the Muslim prisoners that were kept in the
1 camp, apart from the discussion about where your sister was ----
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. --- did they tell you anything else about why they were at the
5 A. Well, listen, specifically I mentioned Paso Softic to you, we
6 were neighbours. He told me that he had hidden some of his IDs
7 in the barn. He asked me to take it. He had some
8 qualifications for performing his job there or something, so he
9 asked me to get it for him. I did not manage to. I tried to go
10 and get it for him but I could not. Also I talked to Besima
11 Turkanovic, remember I told you, and she was talking to me. She
12 said, "Jovo, brother, what happened to us?" Believe me, I could
13 not answer anything to her. I broke into tears.
14 Q. Did these people say to you or did you get the impression that
15 they were in fear of their lives?
16 MR. NIEMANN: Can you hear me now, sir?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, fine, I can hear you.
18 Q. I did not get the answer to the last question but I will not
19 pursue it any further with you. I only have one more question
20 for you. Your sister, the name Dara, is that a nickname or is
21 that her real name?
22 A. Yes, Darinka is her full name, Darinka.
23 Q. Darinka, fine.
24 A. But we call her Dara.
25 Q. Fine. Did she have a married name or was she not married?
26 A. No, she was not married.
27 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions, your Honour.
28 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
1 MR. KAY: Just one matter.
2 Re-Examined by MR. KAY.
3 Q. How many years did you serve in the army, Mr. Samardija?
4 A. From 1941 until 1956.
5 MR. KAY: Thank you. That is all I ask.
6 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Niemann?
7 MR. NIEMANN: Nothing, your Honour.
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to this witness being
9 permanently excused?
10 MR. NIEMANN: There is no objection to the witness being excused,
11 your Honour.
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Sir, you are permanently excused. You are free
13 to leave. Thank you very much for coming.
14 THE WITNESS: All right. Thank you.
15 (The witness withdrew).
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, are you going to recall Mr. Prpos?
17 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I have not got the documents yet. They are
18 being copied for both sides by the Prosecution. I think that it
19 would be helpful if we could have a short break so that we can
20 have the material.
21 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Then, of course, we have Mr. Budimir and
22 possibly Mr. Vujanovic, is that correct? We are working on a
23 letter now I think to send regarding Mr. Budimir, so that should
24 be faxed to Mr. Wladimiroff now.
25 MR. KAY: Yes.
26 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We will stand in recess for 20 minutes.
27 (12.05 p.m.)
28 (Luncheon Adjournment)
1 (2.00 p.m.)
2 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
3 MR. KAY: Your Honour, I recall Djuro Prpos.
4 DJURO PRPOS, recalled
5 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Prpos, do you understand that you are still
6 under the oath that you took -- was it the day before
7 yesterday -- to tell the truth? Mr. Prpos, it appears you can
8 hear us but we cannot hear you. Mr. Prpos, you are still ----
9 THE WITNESS: I can hear you just fine.
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Fine. You understand that you are still under
11 the oath that you took when you last appeared to tell the
12 truth? Do you understand that?
13 THE WITNESS [In translation]: I know that.
14 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you.
15 THE WITNESS: That is clear.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, you may proceed.
17 Examined by MR. KAY
18 Q. Mr. Prpos, can you confirm that since you gave evidence earlier
19 in the week that you have now supplied from Prijedor police
20 station unaltered and unredacted copies of the Exhibits that you
21 provided for the Defence for this trial?
22 A. Yes, I can.
23 Q. And copies of those documents have now been supplied to both the
24 Prosecution and the Defence?
25 A. Yes, I saw that.
26 Q. I would like you to look at one page of the document D66 in its
27 unredacted form at 3rd August 1992?
28 A. Just a minute, I have not got the document with me yet. You
1 will have to repeat the question, sir.
2 Q. Yes. Are you looking now at the page for 3rd August 1992 in the
3 form of an unredacted version of D66?
4 A. No, I have it in the altered version and I need an unaltered
5 version. Just a minute, I have not received one yet.
6 Q. No problem.
7 MR. MARRO: The Registry has not received at the moment anything,
8 your Honour.
9 MR. KAY: If Mr. Keegan or Mr. Wladimiroff could supply you with the
11 THE WITNESS: They are working on it now. I have the original
12 document of August 3rd 1992 without any alterations.
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, for the record, Mr. Bos is suggesting
14 that we have this identified and given a particular Exhibit
15 number. I gather we just have the Serbo-Croatian. We do not
16 have the English translation of the unredacted pages. What we
17 can do is make this C so that this is now Defence 66, but he is
18 referring to an unredacted page of Defence 66 and so let us make
19 it 66C. Then if he refers to other pages -- I do not know what
20 you plan on doing, but this will be 66C. OK, Mr. Kay, you may
22 MR. KAY: Much obliged, your Honour.
23 Q. Can you confirm that Dusko Tadic is recorded as working at the
24 checkpoint Most na Sani between 7.00 in the morning and 1900
25 hours, according to the information on that page?
26 A. On this page this information does not exist, Most na Sani from
27 7 to 19 -- oh, there is. I am sorry. Dusko Tadic, No. 4, yes.
28 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Prpos. That is all I ask.
1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Miss Hollis?
2 Cross-Examined by MISS HOLLIS
3 Q. Mr. Prpos, is it correct that you provided unredacted copies of
4 pages for 15 June 1992 through 30 June 1992 from your official
5 duty plan?
6 A. I did not receive these documents directly. This was done by a
7 service from the Defence, but I have the document from
8 August 3rd before me. I told you beforehand that I am not
9 entitled to give these documents out. It is within the
10 authority of Jankovic Mile who is now in charge of the police
11 station for traffic security. I only tried to influence him and
12 I told him that the Presiding Judge asked for this information
13 and he acted accordingly.
14 Q. Mr. Prpos, I am in possession of what appear to be unredacted
15 copies of entries in the official duty plan for 15th June
16 through 30th June. Did you physically bring those copies to
17 Banja Luka to the Defence counsel representative there?
18 A. No, I did not personally bring them.
19 Q. All right. Perhaps you could be provided the official duty plan
20 pages that the Defence and Prosecution have in their possession
21 so that you could look at those, please?
22 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Were they given to Defence counsel, Mr. Kay?
23 MR. KAY: I think they were given to an agent of the Defence who went
24 to the police station to collect them.
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: And that agent gave them to Mr. Wladimiroff?
26 MR. KAY: And Mr. Keegan.
27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK.
28 MISS HOLLIS: So then if someone could please provide Mr. Prpos the
1 entries from Defence Exhibit 66 which have been provided?
2 A. They are doing it right now. I should be receiving one now.
3 I have the originals of June 16th 1992.
4 Q. Do you have an entry for 15th June 1992?
5 A. No, it does not exist. I have June 16th 1992.
6 Q. All right. If you would please examine those entries that you
7 have before you date by date, beginning with 16th June, that is,
8 the unredacted version of the entry in the official duty plan,
9 is that correct?
10 A. Without having crossed out the others, apart from Orlovci
12 Q. Thank you. If you would turn to 17th June, please? Again, that
13 is an entry from the official duty plan?
14 A. Yes, June 17th 1992.
15 Q. If you would look, please, and determine if you have before you
16 the entries from the official duty plan for 18th through
17 30th June 1992?
18 A. I do not understand the question.
19 Q. Would you please look at the material before you and determine
20 if you have before you the unredacted entries of the official
21 duty plan for the dates 18 June through 30 June 1992?
22 A. I am looking at it now, the 18th, 19th, 20th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd,
23 24th, 25th, 26th, 27th, 28th, 29th, the 30th.
24 Q. Sir, would you also look at the material in front of you and
25 determine if you have the unredacted entries in Defence Exhibit
26 66, the official duty plan, for the dates 1 July through 31 July
28 A. 1st July, 2nd July, 3rd July, 4th July, 5th July, 6th July,
1 7th July, 8th July, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16,
2 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 and the
4 Q. Can you also verify for us that you have before you the
5 unredacted entries in the official duty plan for 1st through
6 4th August 1992?
7 A. 1st August, 2nd August, 3rd August, 4th August.
8 Q. Sir, if you would please look at the date of the entries for
9 16th June 1992 ----
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Shall we make this an exhibit, shall it be 66D
11 Defence or ----
12 THE WITNESS: I can see it.
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: --- do you want to make it a Prosecution
14 Exhibit, this bundle?
15 MISS HOLLIS: Your Honour, we are not offering that at this time. We
16 merely wanted to be sure that we had the authentic copies of
17 these records through this witness.
18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK.
19 MISS HOLLIS: If you would look at 16th June 1992 and you would look
20 at the numbers ----
21 A. I see it.
22 Q. And you would look at the number 697 and it appears to be
23 "punkt", then the No. 13 ----
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. --- and then a "T" and an "A"?
26 A. Yes.
27 Q. Could you tell us what that is?
28 A. That is checkpoint trinaesta, the thirteenth. That is where the
1 road crosses the railroad, and it is usually called trinaesta,
2 the thirteenth. That is how we called the checkpoint too. It
3 is towards the former Bosanski Novi which we now call Novi Grad.
4 Q. If you could possibly be provided with Prosecution Exhibit 280,
5 Mr. Prpos?
6 A. I have it now.
7 Q. Could you look at that and see if you can find on that map where
8 this checkpoint would be located?
9 A. I can. It is in this part here.
10 Q. If we could please put the camera on that part?
11 A. [The witness indicated].
12 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Are these checkpoints under his command?
13 MISS HOLLIS: I will ask that, your Honour.
14 THE WITNESS: It is over here where it says "Raskovac".
15 Q. Is it about at the "C" that we see on the map or where exactly
16 is it?
17 A. This is a crossroads of the yellow and the red roads that do not
18 really meet.
19 Q. All right. Is the checkpoint at the higher of the yellow where
20 it meets the red, or is it the lower portion of yellow where it
21 meets the red?
22 A. The checkpoint was over here on this side, but that is where the
23 checkpoint building was, but it covered the entire crossroads
24 that I am showing. The building was here that the policemen
25 used, up here.
26 Q. All right. If you would now, please, keep that map with you,
27 but if you would look again at the entry for 16th June 1992, the
28 entry on the official duty plan.
1 A. This is 697, that is the number of the checkpoint, actually of
2 the patrol order for that checkpoint.
3 Q. If you would look at 698, it has another "punkt" which appears
4 as the letter "C" and then it appears to be the word "Dolina"?
5 A. I see it.
6 Q. Can you tell us where that checkpoint was located?
7 A. It is Crna Dolina.
8 Q. Can you show us where ----
9 A. That is the checkpoint towards Kozarska Dubica, over here, also
10 the crossroads between this road and this main road leading to
11 Kozarska Dubica, by the No. 163.
12 Q. Thank you very much.
13 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: We have not found it either.
14 MISS HOLLIS: If you will look at the map where it says Puharska and
15 move up from Puharska and see the number 163?
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Was it one that was marked before?
17 MR. KAY: Your Honour, yes.
18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: It was, OK. Is it near Tukovi, to the right of
20 MISS HOLLIS: Mr. Prpos, is this one of the checkpoints that you
21 identified for us earlier?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. This checkpoint, 697, that we have spoken of, was this a
24 checkpoint that was under your authority?
25 A. Yes, it was.
26 Q. While we are looking at this same page, 16.6.1992, if you would
27 look to the right of the year, there appears to be a word that
28 is in parenthesis; it says 1992 and then there appears to be a
1 word in parenthesis.
2 A. It is Tuesday, a day in the week.
3 Q. Thank you very much. Down at the bottom on this page there
4 appears "711" which appears to be "mobilna patrola".
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What was that?
7 A. A patrol that went to look at traffic accidents that would occur
8 within that period of time.
9 Q. Was this patrol also under your authority?
10 A. Everything that is on this list was under my authority.
11 Q. What type of vehicles did that patrol use?
12 A. An official vehicle, blue and white. You can see the
13 registration number too.
14 Q. Were these also Golf vehicles?
15 A. Yes, Golf.
16 Q. If you would look at the bottom right portion of that entry for
17 16th June 1992, and you see the word there -- I apologise for my
18 pronunciation -- that appears to be "Bolovanje"?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What does that mean?
21 A. It means that those two policemen were ill and that they were
22 not capable of working on those days.
23 MISS HOLLIS: Thank you, your Honour. No further questions.
24 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay?
25 MR. KAY: Nothing arises.
26 MISS HOLLIS: Excuse me, your Honour, may I have a moment?
27 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes.
28 MISS HOLLIS: Nothing further, your Honour.
1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Is there any objection to Mr. Prpos being
2 permanently excused?
3 MISS HOLLIS: Yes, your Honour.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Prpos, you are free to leave. However, you
5 may be recalled as a witness. Therefore, you should keep in
6 touch with Mr. Wladimiroff and he will advise you if you are to
7 return to give further testimony. Thank you very much once
8 again and you are now free to leave.
9 (The witness withdrew)
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Kay, Miss Hollis, give us some direction,
11 is it, Mr. Vujanovic?
12 MR. KAY: Your Honour, at the request of the Prosecution, you may
13 recollect they asked for Mr. Vujanovic to be recalled, and
14 I have passed that message back to Banja Luka and arrangements
15 were being made over lunch time.
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Marro, is Mr. Vujanovic present?
17 MR. MARRO: No, not at the moment, your Honour.
18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Do you have an idea when he is expected? Do
19 you know when he is expected to be present?
20 MR. MARRO: Mr. Wladimiroff would be pleased to address the Court to
21 explain to you precisely the situation regarding Mr. Vujanovic
22 and Mr. Budimir, if he may?
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes.
24 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Your Honour, we have been ----
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Let me administer the oath, Mr. Wladimiroff!
26 I am joking with you since you are sitting in the witness seat.
27 You may proceed.
28 MR. WLADIMIROFF: May I start?
1 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes, Mr. Wladimiroff, please.
2 MR. WLADIMIROFF: Right, I have some admiration for the witnesses,
3 your Honour, because it seems to be extremely difficult.
4 Anyhow, we have been around to look for Mr. Vujanovic,
5 but we could not find him so far. I will call our
6 representative in the field at 3 o'clock, whether he will be
7 available or not. If that is the case, he can be brought here
8 and I expect him to be here at 4 o'clock. But at this stage
9 I am not able to tell you whether he is available this afternoon
10 or not.
11 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Have you been in touch with him, either you
12 directly or your agent, the person who works with the Defence?
13 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I have not been in contact with him directly
14 because we are here in Banja Luka and the witness is in
16 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: No one from the Defence has been able to reach
17 him, is that what you are telling me? What I am trying to do is
18 to find out whether we can expect him at 4.00 or whether it is a
19 hope that if you get in touch with him he will be here at 4.00
20 or there at 4.00.
21 MR. WLADIMIROFF: So far, no one has been in contact with him
22 personally, but we have been in contact with his superiors.
23 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Thank you, Mr. Wladimiroff. Mr. Wladimiroff,
24 what is the situation with Mr. Budimir? We sent two letters.
25 MR. WLADIMIROFF: I have to deal with your question in
26 Serbo-Croatian, your Honour, because there is no English here,
27 but I will try to read on the transcript in the meantime.
28 Anyhow, we have been in contact directly with Mr. Budimir. We
1 passed the letter of the Tribunal directly to him and he is now
2 trying to get in contact with his superiors. At this moment he
3 was not able to establish such a contact, but again at 3 o'clock
4 I will call our representative who is in direct contact with him
5 to hear what is the result of these activities. So I expect to
6 be more informed at 3 o'clock. Also, here we are in Banja Luka
7 and Mr. Budimir is in Prijedor.
8 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: He can get the train and get there in an hour
9 or hour and a half, depending on the circumstances, I guess.
10 Mr. Kay, Miss Hollis, or whoever is handling
11 Mr. Vujanovic, how do you suggest that we handle this? One
12 possibility is that we adjourn today since there has not been
13 contact with Mr. Vujanovic so we do not know whether he will be
14 coming this afternoon, and then also wait word after the
15 Ministry of Defence and the Ministry of Interior have received
16 the letter that I sent just early this afternoon.
17 MR. KAY: Yes.
18 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Mr. Budimir you have listed for three hours. I
19 do not know how long we need for Mr. Vujanovic, Mr. Tieger?
20 MR. TIEGER: Even if Mr. Budimir takes the full three hours, your
21 Honour, we will still have enough time for Mr. Vujanovic
23 MR. KAY: I think it may be an overestimate for Mr. Budimir, three
25 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Do you agree that it is best then for us
26 to adjourn now and reconvene tomorrow at 10.00 -- 10.30
28 MR. TIEGER: I would think so under the circumstances, your Honour.
1 MR. KAY: I do not mind making myself available for the rest of the
2 afternoon. But if your Honour thinks it is not a good idea, it
3 may be that we draw stumps for this afternoon.
4 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: Yes. We could make ourselves available, but
5 the interpreters would have to just make themselves available
6 and I do not see there is a need because we will have enough
7 time tomorrow even starting at 10.30 to consider Mr. Budimir if
8 he cannot come and Mr. Vujanovic.
9 MR. KAY: Of course.
10 THE PRESIDING JUDGE: OK. Then we will adjourn then until tomorrow
11 at 10.30. Mr. Marro, we are adjourning until tomorrow at
12 10.30 a.m.
13 (2.40 p.m.)
14 (The Court adjourned until the following day)