Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1

 1                          Monday, 4 June 2007

 2                          [Initial Appearance]

 3                          [Open session]

 4                          [The accused entered court]

 5                          --- Upon commencing at 4.30 p.m.

 6            JUDGE PROST:  Good afternoon, everyone.  Madam Registrar, can you

 7    call the case, please.

 8            THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honour.  This is case number

 9    IT-05-88/2-I, the Prosecutor versus Zdravko Tolimir.

10            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you very much.  This is the initial appearance

11    of Zdravko Tolimir pursuant to Rule 62 of the Rules of Procedure and

12    Evidence of this Tribunal.

13            Mr.  Tolimir, I wish to confirm initially that you're hearing

14    these proceedings in a language that you can understand.  Can you confirm

15    that for me?  If you could just use the microphone.

16            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.  Thank you, yes, I

17    can follow the proceedings.  I can hear the proceedings in a language I

18    understand.

19            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you very much.  And please, if at any point in

20    time you're not able to understand or if you're not receiving

21    interpretation, please let me know immediately.  Thank you.

22            May I have the appearances, please for the Prosecution?

23            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Good afternoon, Peter McCloskey and with me is

24    Nelson Thayer, Kweku Vanderpuye and Julian Nicholls and Janet Stewart who

25    you are familiar with.

Page 2

 1            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you, Mr. McCloskey, and good afternoon to you

 2    and to your team, and may I have the appearances for the Defence for

 3    Mr. Tolimir, please.

 4            MR. SAHOTA:  Good afternoon, my name is Roger Sahota, and I'm

 5    acting as assigned duty counsel this afternoon.

 6            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you very much, Mr. Sahota.

 7            Mr.  Tolimir, I take it you understand that Mr. Sahota is

 8    appearing this afternoon as a duty counsel for you for the purposes only

 9    of this initial stage of the proceedings.  He's been assigned for that

10    purpose.  In due course, obviously, the registrar will be liaising with

11    you regarding the issue of your counsel for the proceedings in general but

12    for today, Mr. Sahota is here to assist you for these proceedings.  Do you

13    understand that and do you have any comments about him representing you

14    for the purposes of this proceeding?  Mr. Sahota?

15            MR. SAHOTA:  Your Honour, if it may assist I have spent some time

16    speaking with Mr.  Tolimir this afternoon.  His unequivocal instructions

17    to me are that he wishes to represent himself during these initial stages

18    until a permanent lawyer is appointed as his counsel.

19            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you for that.  Is that the case, Mr.  Tolimir,

20    you wish this afternoon to represent yourself and I will address matters

21    directly to you?

22            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  That's right.

23            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you very much.  And I would, however, ask

24    Mr. Sahota, if you will remain for the course of the proceedings in case

25    there are any issues on which you can render some assistance.

Page 3

 1            MR. SAHOTA:  Of course.

 2            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you.

 3            Now, we'll proceed then with the matters at issue for this

 4    particular hearing.  First, briefly, Mr.  Tolimir, I'm going to note for

 5    you the -- describe for you the procedural history of the indictment

 6    against you in brief terms, since it's somewhat complicated in this case.

 7    You were originally charged with two others, Mr. Miletic and Mr. Gvero,

 8    under an indictment with case number IT-04-80-I.  This indictment was

 9    confirmed by Judge Liu on the 11th of February 2005.  And it was made

10    public in relation to you a few weeks later on the 25th of February.

11            Subsequently, by an order dated the 21st of September 2005, the

12    case against the three of you was joined with that of the accused Popovic,

13    Beara, Nikolic, Borovcanin, Pandurevic and Trbic.  The case subsequently

14    against Mr. Trbic was severed on the 26th of June 2006 and then

15    subsequently on the 15th of August 2006, the case against you was also

16    severed from that joint indictment by order of the Trial Chamber.  And as

17    a result of those developments, the operative indictment against you alone

18    was filed on the 28th of August of 2006 as case number IT-05-88/2-I.

19            Do you understand that explanation, Mr. Tolimir?

20            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Yes.  I understand it.

21            JUDGE PROST:  Thanks very much.

22            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

23            JUDGE PROST:  Mr. McCloskey, before -- I'm not going to go through

24    the indictment in detail at this time.  I'll deal with it with Mr. Tolimir

25    in a few minutes but before that, there was one point that I noticed upon

Page 4

 1    reviewing Mr. Tolimir's indictment with respect to an inconsistency as

 2    between the charges in the particularised counts and the last sentence of

 3    the indictment and I wondered if you could clarify that for me.  It's in

 4    relation to the application or not of Article 7(3).

 5            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  Madam President, you're absolutely right.

 6    There is actually a mistake in the last page of the indictment, page 30 in

 7    the English, page 32 in the B/C/S.  The reference in the last line to

 8    Article 7(3) is a mistake.  That should not be there.  We will correct

 9    that mistake in the near future and file an appropriate indictment without

10    7(3).  7(3) is not a part of the general's case.

11            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you for that clarification, Mr. McCloskey.

12            Mr. Tolimir, I'm not going to review the indictment at this point

13    in any detail.  We'll come to that in a few minutes.  But simply for your

14    purposes and for the purposes of any members of the public who may be

15    following these proceedings, I will give just a very brief summary of the

16    indictment itself.  Within the indictment you are charged with two counts

17    of genocide under Article 4 of the Tribunal's statute, namely genocide and

18    conspiracy to commit genocide.  You're charged with five counts of crimes

19    against humanity, under Article 5 of the Statute, namely extermination,

20    murder, persecutions on political, racial and religious grounds, inhumane

21    acts and deportation, and you are charged with one count of violation of

22    the laws or customs of war under Article 3 of the Statute of the Tribunal,

23    namely murder.

24            In relation to this indictment, Mr. Tolimir, you are charged as

25    being individually responsible for the crimes under Article 7(1) of the

Page 5

 1    Tribunal's statute.  Without dealing in any depth with the details of the

 2    counts or of the allegations, in very summary form the indictment alleges

 3    that between the 11th of July 1995 and the 1st of November 1995,

 4    Mr. Tolimir and others, with intent to destroy part of the Bosnian Muslim

 5    people as a national, ethnical or religious group, killed members of the

 6    group by summary execution, including both planned and opportunistic

 7    summary executions and caused serious bodily or mental harm to both female

 8    and male members of the Bosnian Muslim population of Srebrenica and Zepa.

 9            The indictment further alleges that Mr. Tolimir and others entered

10    into a conspiracy to commit genocide by agreeing to kill the able-bodied

11    Muslim men from Srebrenica who were captured or surrendered after the fall

12    of the enclave in July 1995, and to remove the remaining Muslim population

13    of Srebrenica and Zepa from the Republika Srpska with the intent to

14    destroy those Muslims.  And the indictment further states, Mr. Tolimir and

15    others were members of and knowingly participated in a joint criminal

16    enterprise, the common purpose of which was to force the Muslim population

17    out of Srebrenica and Zepa enclaves to areas outside the control of the

18    Republika Srpska from about March 8th 1995 through the end of August 1995.

19    As indicated, that's just a very brief overview.

20            Mr. Tolimir, before moving to the formal stages of the process, in

21    terms of the issue of a plea, I would like to ask you the following

22    questions for the record.  Could you please state your full name for the

23    record, please?

24            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'd like to ask you to

25    accept that I don't accept identifying myself until you, as the Court,

Page 6

 1    establish that in view of the fact that the circumstances and facts under

 2    which I was arrested and brought to the Tribunal are such and wanted to

 3    alter my identity and wipe all the records out, where I was registered as

 4    the national of a state to which I belong.  Would you please accept that?

 5            JUDGE PROST:  I take it, Mr. Tolimir, that you do not wish at this

 6    time to state your full name for the record.  Is that correct?

 7            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.  Yes, thank you.  I

 8    want to tell you the following:  That I have been forced in this way to

 9    establish my full identity before this Tribunal because internationally

10    recognised countries were denied to recognise the right that I have in

11    being a national of the state to which I belong.  Whether I acknowledge

12    something or not is worthless, even for these proceedings, or for the

13    trial when it takes place, or for the implementation of the sentence and

14    judgement after the trial.  Thank you.

15            JUDGE PROST:  Well, let me try it this way, Mr. Tolimir:  Putting

16    aside the question of your nationality or the state to which you belong,

17    are you simply prepared to just advise us as to your name itself, without

18    any further details, just your full name?  You're not required to but if

19    you are prepared to do at least that, that would confirm that point on the

20    record, without dealing with any of the other issues that you've raised.

21            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I understand your point

22    and I understand procedure.  You have addressed me in the way that you

23    have.  I am not denying myself but other people are denying me as a

24    person, and with your permission, I can make a formal statement and say

25    what I want to say, and then the Tribunal can look into this until the

Page 7

 1    next session in view of the objectivity and fairness of the trial and in

 2    view of my state of health as well.

 3            JUDGE PROST:  Okay.  Thank you very much for that, Mr. Tolimir.

 4    What I would suggest we are going to do then is I will go through some of

 5    the other formalities that are necessary for this particular hearing,

 6    which is your first appearance, and these matters are mandated by the

 7    Statute and the rules, and then at the end I will certainly give you an

 8    opportunity to make a statement as to the issue that you wish raised, and

 9    it can be followed up at subsequent proceedings.  So if -- that's the

10    manner in which I propose to proceed.

11            I take it, then, that similarly, you're not prepared at this time

12    to confirm on the record your date and place of birth.  Would that be the

13    case?

14            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Yes.  You've understood

15    me correctly.  I wish to tell you everything.  However, I wish you to

16    assist me so that my position can be viewed objectively and the

17    circumstances under which I find myself in this courtroom, which is

18    something that is being denied by those who, as international legal

19    subjects, took part in my extradition and in bringing me here before this

20    International Tribunal.  Thank you.

21            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you, Mr. Tolimir.  One other matter I wish to

22    confirm with you is whether your family has been informed of your transfer

23    to and detention in the United Nations Unit of the Tribunal in The Hague,

24    or is there any action on this account you would like taken by the

25    Tribunal at this time?

Page 8

 1            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  My family has been

 2    informed through my family lawyer, and he also works in this International

 3    Tribunal.  So I don't think it's necessary for the Court to inform them

 4    separately.  Thank you.

 5            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you very much.  Now, Mr. Tolimir, there is one

 6    further matter I want to address to you, particularly in light of the fact

 7    that you've asked to be -- to represent yourself during these initial

 8    proceedings.  I want to ensure that you understand that for your

 9    appearance today and throughout the proceedings before this Tribunal, you

10    have certain rights which I'm sure your counsel, duty counsel, may have

11    discussed with you.  These are reflected in various statute provisions and

12    in the Rules of Procedure and Evidence of this Tribunal.

13            Most notably, though, are Articles 20 and 21 of the Statute and I

14    wanted you to be aware, because of the responsibilities I have under the

15    rules relating to this appearance, of some particular ones that are of

16    relevance to you.  That is, you have the right to be informed promptly and

17    in detail in a language you understand of the nature and cause of the

18    charge against you; you have the right to have adequate time and

19    facilities for the preparation of your defence and to communicate with

20    counsel of your choosing; you have the right to be tried in your presence

21    and to defend yourself in person or through legal assistance of your

22    choosing, to have legal assistance assigned to you where the interests of

23    justice so require, and without payment, if do you not have sufficient

24    means to pay for it.  And, of course, you have the right not to be

25    compelled to testify against yourself or to confess guilt.

Page 9

 1            As I say, there are many such rights enshrined in the statute and

 2    rules, but I wanted to highlight these particular ones to you at this

 3    time.  Do you understand those and is that a sufficient, summary?  Or do

 4    you need the provisions of the Articles to be read to you which we can do

 5    if you deem it necessary.

 6            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I don't think that will

 7    be necessary.  Mr. Roger explained it to me during our preliminary

 8    discussions.  Thank you.

 9            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you for that confirmation.

10            Now, I would like at this time to deal with the issue of your

11    plea, Mr. Tolimir.  First of all, can I confirm with you that you have

12    received a copy of the indictment in a language that you understand, in

13    your language, and that you've had an opportunity to review that

14    indictment?  Can you advise me on that, please?

15            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Yes.  I have received a

16    copy in a language I understand, two days ago, and I have had time to read

17    it and look through it, thank you.

18            JUDGE PROST:  Now, as was probably explained to you as well, you

19    have the right this afternoon to have that indictment read out to you in

20    full in court in this hearing.  You may, however, choose to waive that

21    right and to confirm that waiver on the record for us.  So at this time I

22    would ask you whether you would like the indictment to be read to you or

23    are you prepared to waive the reading of the indictment and confirm that

24    on the record?

25            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I would like to say for

Page 10

 1    the record that I would like to waive my right to have the indictment read

 2    because I read it out before I appeared in court.  Thank you.

 3            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you for your confirmation then and we will not

 4    then read out the indictment in full but I do wish to confirm with you

 5    that you've understood the indictment.  You've indicated you've reviewed

 6    it and you've had an opportunity to read it over the past couple of days.

 7    Do you understand the indictment against you?

 8            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Yes, I have understood

 9    the indictment in all its parts.  Thank you.

10            JUDGE PROST:  Now, Mr. Tolimir, I'm going to formally deal with

11    you now at this point with reference to the plea to the charges and I

12    would ask you if you could, please, for this stage, albeit I understand we

13    may not be dealing with actual pleas but I would request if you could

14    please stand at this particular juncture in order that I may formally

15    address you regarding the indictment.

16            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  May I say something

17    before that?  That is that I don't wish to enter a plea before you decide

18    as a court on the basis of the official statement that I would like to

19    give to go ahead afterwards.

20            JUDGE PROST:  Okay.  In light of that indication, then,

21    Mr. Tolimir, you can remain seated.  I will explain to you, however, as

22    I'm required to do, the circumstances surrounding your plea.  Our rules

23    provide that you may choose to enter a plea to each of the counts today,

24    or, as you're indicating, you may request to delay entering your plea to

25    another occasion, which is what I understand you're doing.  However, if

Page 11

 1    you are requesting, as it appears you are, not to enter your plea today

 2    but to deal with it at a future appearance, we will require that a plea be

 3    entered within 30 days of this appearance so that there will be another

 4    hearing scheduled within that 30-day period for the purposes of taking

 5    your plea to the indictment.

 6            Should you choose not to enter a plea today or within that 30-day

 7    period, then a plea of not guilty will be entered in relation to each

 8    count on your behalf.  Otherwise, as indicated though, another hearing

 9    date will be set within that 30-day period in order to formally deal with

10    the issue of the pleas.  So I'm confirming, Mr. Tolimir, that do you not

11    wish to enter your plea today, that you would prefer to do so at a later

12    date and we will therefore make arrangements to schedule another hearing

13    within the 30-day period.  Is that understand?  And is that the case?

14            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  You have stated

15    precisely what I wish to say.  I have no other possibility, in view of the

16    facts and the circumstances under which I would be required to enter a

17    plea.  The important thing is that you clarify out of court some of the

18    circumstances before we come to our next session and that will establish

19    my real position.  Thank you.

20            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you, Mr. Tolimir.

21            I'm going to, before raising with both the Prosecution and

22    yourself, any final issues, given particularly in light of your request to

23    represent yourself at this stage, I just want to review a few matters with

24    you so you'll be aware of them.  First of all, under Rule 65 bis(A) a

25    Pre-Trial Judge is going to be appointed who will schedule a Status

Page 12

 1    Conference.  This will be in addition to the procedures for a plea and the

 2    responsibility of the Pre-Trial Judge and the Status Conferences is both

 3    to facilitate the preparations for trial but secondly and importantly to

 4    ensure that you're being treated properly and to be made aware of any

 5    complaints or requests that you may have.  So the Pre-Trial Judge will be

 6    appointed in due course and you will have that regular appearance for

 7    those reasons.

 8            Secondly, and Mr. McCloskey, I'm sure I have no need to remind you

 9    of the obligation of the Prosecution, under Rule 66(A)(i) of the Rules of

10    Procedure and Evidence, to make available, within 30 days, in a language

11    the accused understands, the supporting material which accompanied the

12    indictment when confirmation was sought and any statements of the accused.

13    I assume that will be done in accordance with the rule.

14            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Madam President.  We have the supporting

15    material in binders but we normally prefer to have an attorney to provide

16    it to so that it doesn't go missing or end up having to be worried about

17    transferring back and forth to the jail.

18            JUDGE PROST:  I'm certain you can discuss the matter with duty

19    counsel and with Mr. Tolimir and make the proper arrangements to see to it

20    being delivered within the time frame.  Thank you for that.

21            And I would also like to advise you, Mr. Tolimir, as I'm sure your

22    counsel may have made you aware as well, that pursuant to Rule 72(A), you

23    will have a 30-day period for filing any preliminary motions once you have

24    received the supporting material that I just discussed with the

25    Prosecution.  So you will need to be mindful of that 30-day period,

Page 13

 1    particularly if your arrangements for counsel take some time.  So please

 2    bear that in mind.

 3            Now, I believe those were the essential matters that I wanted to

 4    cover in the hearing.  At this time, I would ask first if the Prosecution

 5    has any matters it wishes to raise at this time.  Mr. McCloskey?

 6            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Madam President.  We have nothing in

 7    particular, though I would -- I did want to inform you and the General

 8    that it is our intention to file, hopefully on Wednesday, a motion to join

 9    General Tolimir's case to the ongoing case of Popovic et al.

10            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.  We'll certainly look

11    forward with interest to that filing.  And Mr. Tolimir, you will take note

12    of that point raised by the Prosecution as to an expected filing with

13    reference to a possible joinder of cases.

14            Now, Mr. Tolimir, you've made reference to the fact that there are

15    certain matters you wish to bring to our attention, so, please, at this

16    time, if there's any points you wish to make, please proceed and advise me

17    of those.  Thank you.

18            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I want to present the

19    circumstances under which my identity is being denied as well as my rights

20    and the state as well.  And this is essential as far as my position is

21    concerned, and the position of the Tribunal vis-a-vis myself and the

22    proceedings in this Court.  I just want to present the facts and you will

23    be able, for a fair and just trial, to investigate until we come to the

24    next session and next proceedings.  Thank you.

25            JUDGE PROST:  Is there any particular facts that you wish to put

Page 14

 1    forward at this time, Mr. Tolimir, or do you plan to submit them

 2    subsequently, either through your duty counsel or otherwise?

 3            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wish to present the facts briefly

 4    now and they will provide a basis for your decision during these

 5    proceedings, and in conformity with Rule 84 bis(A) and (B), I can give a

 6    fuller statement under the control of the Trial Chamber which will be an

 7    out-of-court statement adopted subsequently by the parties in question and

 8    based on false testimony to the public, false information giving out to

 9    the public, after the solemn declaration, and you will see whether this

10    is, under Rule 91, to see what I'm saying and to see what the people who

11    deny this and say quite the opposite to what I'm saying, thank you.

12            JUDGE PROST:  Well, then, Mr. Tolimir, if you could proceed, just

13    briefly, to highlight the points you want to highlight today and it would

14    probably be of better use to us to have something subsequently in writing

15    but please go ahead, if you wish to highlight some facts to me briefly

16    today, that's fine.  Please proceed.

17            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I wanted to do this now

18    so that my statement can be considered as an objection, in view of the

19    fact that I have limited possibility for the compiling of documents.  So I

20    would just like to say something briefly.  First of all, I want to point

21    out to this Tribunal that Rule 62(A) was not respected during my arrest

22    and extradition, and bringing me here before this International Tribunal,

23    on the part of the people who took part in this, and the staff of the

24    Prosecution, the OTP, who took part in the process of arrest and

25    extradition.  That is my first point.

Page 15

 1            Secondly, I was arrested on the territory of Serbia, whose citizen

 2    I am.  I was transferred to the territory of Republika Srpska, whose

 3    citizen I am not, without my will and without the right to a lawyer and

 4    the presence of a lawyer.  And I was taken subsequently to a location, the

 5    location of Bratunac, in fact, which is mentioned as a location in all the

 6    indictments and all the counts and charges against me, for reasons unknown

 7    to me, and Bratunac is in completely the opposite direction from the place

 8    that I was transferred to here, and also from Banja Luka and Belgrade.

 9            So I was taken to this locality without any reason, for the period

10    which is relevant to the indictment, not during the events or after the

11    events or never before or up until now.  Now I wouldn't consider this to

12    be important had I not been filmed on that location by military facilities

13    which is where the Bratunac Brigade had its headquarters and staff and the

14    police units had their headquarters too.  I was astonished that I was

15    filmed both secretly and publicly at those locations when I was arrested

16    and when I was taken into custody and brought here so I would like this

17    Tribunal to bear that in mind for a fair trial later on so that they

18    should -- the Tribunal should not allow this to be used and abused later

19    on in the proceedings.

20            The representatives of the OTP took part in this and members of

21    NATO as well.  So what I'm saying is this:  I was taken from the Republic

22    of Serbia to Bijeljina and from Bijeljina I was returned 100 kilometres

23    back to be taken to the location of Bratunac, which is outside the basic

24    direction and route of my extradition.  I was filmed there from moving

25    vehicles and from other facilities, secretly and publicly, and I was

Page 16

 1    filmed in a vehicle as well, and I pointed this out and I wanted to

 2    consult my lawyer about that, but that was not possible.  I was returned

 3    from Bratunac to Bijeljina and from Bijeljina to Banja Luka.

 4            In Banja Luka, I was interviewed by the Ministry of the Interior

 5    and the Ministry of Justice, with the intention of having me accept the

 6    fact that I am a citizen of Republika Srpska.  I was offered certain

 7    inducements.  My family and I were offered inducements and I was offered

 8    an agreement.  I don't want to go into that but you'll establish later on

 9    why, for what reason, and what this was about.  Furthermore, or rather at

10    that time I was not given the right to consult a lawyer and I was not

11    allowed to go back to the Republic of Serbia so that the authorities of

12    the country of which I'm a national should extradite me, and I have the

13    right to that.  And I also saw that there was a warrant for my arrest and

14    for taking me into custody which was sent out at the same time which means

15    that I need not have been in the Republika Srpska, I could have remained

16    in the Republic of Serbia and have been extradited from there.

17            Furthermore I was taken once again without my agreement to an

18    unknown location where a helicopter arrived, a NATO helicopter, and I was

19    turned over to a NATO unit.  And after some time had elapsed, a

20    representative of The Hague OTP arrived.  I wasn't allowed the right even

21    then, when I was taken over by The Hague Prosecutor and NATO, to have a

22    lawyer present.  I was denied that right.

23            Furthermore, under the competence of NATO, I was filmed for 50

24    hours while I was under NATO custody and custody of The Hague Tribunal,

25    and I think you'll find that everything I have stated so far is the truth.

Page 17

 1            I do not wish to expound on what I am said thus far.  I can do so

 2    in a statement.  All I want to say is this:  Because of my health, I would

 3    like, until the next appearance, that these circumstances be made known,

 4    be made public, because they are essential if I am to enter a plea and

 5    especially since you wish to join my indictment and my case to the other

 6    persons accused for these events.  And this can have repercussions on them

 7    if the situation is not cleared up or if I am not allowed to clear up the

 8    circumstances under which I was arrested and to the situation that I have

 9    described now.  And I'm asking you, as a court of law, on the basis of

10    your authorisation and competence, and pursuant to Rule 67(C) and (A), you

11    take statements out of court from the representatives of the countries

12    that carried out my extradition to this International Tribunal.  That is

13    to say, Serbia and Republika Srpska, and also from the representatives of

14    The Hague Tribunal and the representatives of the NATO command in Sarajevo

15    and the porte-parole, the spokesman for the OTP who has not informed the

16    public.  They -- although he would have had to have known the truth.  He

17    spoke on behalf of the Prosecutor.  I meant the spokesman for the OTP; I

18    misspoke and said the Tribunal.

19            So on the basis of statements out of court, which you will

20    establish after I expound on the situation, you can then decide on further

21    proceedings, and through these out-of-court statements you will be able to

22    establish which country will be ready to take on all the

23    responsibilities -- the responsibilities of a country whose citizen I am.

24    I think that is essential because I have not been accused here personally,

25    for personal responsibility, but it is the state and people who are being

Page 18

 1    accused because the charges are of genocide, so the consequences won't be

 2    on an individual but on an entire nation, on an entire peoples, and I

 3    don't want that to happen if something happens to me, in view of the

 4    circumstances under which I find myself.

 5            Thank you.

 6            I also wish to add that you should bear in mind, because of the

 7    next proceedings out of court, that my health is very bad, I have had

 8    three attacks, strokes, and I have lost a lot of weight.  I used to weigh

 9    84 kilograms and now I weigh 50-odd and since I am losing weight rapidly,

10    I would like you to look into the circumstances which will affect a fair

11    trial in the days to come especially in view of the other participants in

12    the proceedings.  Thank you.

13            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you, Mr. Tolimir.  Your statements are here on

14    the record and I won't make any further comment on them at this time,

15    other than with respect to your last issue that you've raised, and if any

16    point in time you wish to go into private session to discuss this, I do

17    wish to confirm that since your arrival at the Detention Unit, you have

18    been receiving sufficient medical care and that the authorities at the

19    Detention Unit are taking into account and discussing with you your

20    medical issues.  Is that the case?  Are you satisfied with the

21    circumstances at the Detention Unit, particularly in reference to your

22    health?

23            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I can state that they

24    have treated me very properly, all of the staff of the UN Detention Unit,

25    including the medical staff.  They have directed all their attentions to

Page 19

 1    me, even over and above what I expected.  And I believe that they will

 2    enable me to recover fully and that I will be able to speak before this

 3    Tribunal about the allegations and circumstances contained in the

 4    indictment and that I will be in a good state of health at that point.

 5    Thank you.

 6            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you.  And as indicated, we will certainly

 7    bring to the attention of the units the specific point you raised

 8    regarding your health earlier on.

 9            Well, unless there is anything further, then, from Mr. Tolimir or

10    from the Prosecution, I'm seeing shaking of heads, so as indicated we will

11    arrange for a subsequent appearance, Mr. Tolimir, within that 30-day

12    period, for the taking of your formal pleas to the indictment.  But other

13    than that, I believe that that's all the matters for today, and this

14    hearing is adjourned.

15                          --- Whereupon the Initial Appearance

16                          adjourned at 5.12 p.m.