1 Tuesday, 3 July 2007
2 [Further appearance]
3 [Open session]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE PROST: Good morning, Madam Registrar. Could you call the
7 case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honour. This is case number
9 IT-05-88/2-I, the Prosecutor versus Zdravko Tolimir.
10 JUDGE PROST: I'm not sure I have sound here, actually.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Testing.
12 JUDGE PROST: Better. Thank you. Good morning. Good morning,
13 Mr. Tolimir. Can you hear me?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I cannot hear interpretation. I'm
15 not getting interpretation.
16 JUDGE PROST: We are going to -- could we have -- it's working
17 now, Mr. Tolimir?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.
19 JUDGE PROST: And please if at any time during the course of the
20 proceedings -- if at any time during the course of the proceeding,
21 Mr. Tolimir, you're not receiving interpretation, please let me know
22 immediately. Okay. Thank you.
23 May I have the appearances, please?
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Good morning, Madam President, Peter McCloskey and
25 Nelson Thayer and Janet Stewart.
1 JUDGE PROST: Thank you. Good morning to you Mr. McCloskey and to
2 all your team.
3 For the Defence.
4 MR. SAHOTA: Good morning Madam President, Roger Sahota duty
5 counsel for Mr. Tolimir.
6 JUDGE PROST: Thank you, good morning Mr. Sahota.
7 Mr. Tolimir, I just wish to confirm, it's my understanding, that
8 you wish is to continue to act on your own behalf during these preliminary
9 proceedings and that Mr. Sahota is here as duty counsel throughout the
10 proceedings, but that you will be acting for yourself. Is that correct,
11 Mr. Tolimir?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is correct, I have stated that
14 JUDGE PROST: Thank you very much.
15 Mr. Tolimir, just to inform you that pursuant to the order of the
16 Presiding Judge of Trial Chamber II on the 14th of June, I have been
17 designated as the Pre-Trial Judge in this case.
18 Now, before we proceed to the question of a plea this morning, I
19 want to address first of all the amended indictment that has been
20 submitted by the Prosecution.
21 Mr. Tolimir, you will recall, at the initial appearance that you
22 made on the 4th of June, I raised with the Prosecution an issue regarding
23 the indictment and that related to an inconsistency between the particular
24 counts of the indictment and the final sentence of the indictment and
25 whether or not Article 7(3) on command responsibility was applicable.
1 At that time, the Prosecution clarified that in fact the reference
2 in the last sentence to 7(3) was simply a mistake and they undertook to
3 file a new amended indictment with that correction being made.
4 Subsequently, on the 12th of June, Mr. Tolimir, the Prosecution
5 did file the Prosecution's submission of an amended indictment with
6 attached annexes. And pursuant to Rule 50 of the rules of procedure, the
7 Prosecution sought leave to amend the original indictment against you.
8 Now, there were four corrections in that amended indictment that
9 was submitted, three of which were corrections of purely typographical
10 errors, editorial errors. The only substantive change which again arose
11 simply from a mistake was the deletion from the indictment of any
12 reference to command responsibility under Article 7(3) of the statute.
13 Now, I understand that attempts have been made to serve you,
14 Mr. Tolimir, with a copy of these specific amendments and the
15 Prosecution's submission explaining those amendments in your own language,
16 but I understand there's been some difficulty with you accepting that
17 service. Do you have anything you want to say to me about the service of
18 that amended indictment, Mr. Tolimir?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Presiding Judge, ladies
20 and gentlemen, I did not receive the amended indictment because I expected
21 that my permanent counsel would be appointed in the meantime. I have
22 already submitted the name of that counsel to the Registry of this
23 Tribunal. Towards the end of the weekend, I received a reply from the
24 Registry that they do not accept the counsel I wish to have appointed. I
25 expected meanwhile that the counsel would receive the amended indictment
1 instead of me.
2 JUDGE PROST: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Tolimir. Well, we'll deal
3 with other issues relating to that or other matters later on but for the
4 moment, then, I simply want to confirm with you, do you understand the
5 nature of the amendments that the Prosecution has made to the indictment?
6 In essence the only change of substance is that they are clarifying the
7 indictment and making it apparent that you're -- the only allegation in
8 terms of responsibility is that under Article 7(1) of the statute. Do you
9 understand that, Mr. Tolimir?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have not seen the amended
11 indictment, and I am not in a position to grasp all those Articles that
12 the Prosecution invokes and that you have just mentioned. I would like my
13 counsel, who is now here in the courtroom, Mr. Nebojsa Mrkic, to explain
14 that to me later so that I would be able to understand all the legal
15 qualifications involved in the amended indictment.
16 JUDGE PROST: Thank you, Mr. Tolimir. Well, what I'm going to
17 suggest here is you can certainly discuss the amended indictment, as you
18 wish, with Mr. Mrkic or others but the application has been made by the
19 Prosecution for this amendment, and I am going to decide on the proposal
20 and then it will be explained to you again. As I've indicated to you,
21 this change is simply the correction of an error and it operates to remove
22 a form of responsibility from the indictment and to focus the indictment
23 and narrow it to one form of responsibility.
24 Mr. McCloskey, I take it that you wouldn't have any further
25 submissions on the amended indictment, would you?
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: No.
2 JUDGE PROST: Thank you.
3 Therefore, having heard the parties with respect to the issue of
4 the amended indictment, and taking into account that the nature of the
5 amendments have been explained and can be explained again to the --
6 Mr. Tolimir, that copies of the amendments have been made available to the
7 accused in his language, albeit for the moment he is not prepared to
8 accept them until counsel is appointed, that the deletion of the reference
9 to Article 7(3) serves to correct and clarify the indictment and operates
10 in essence to the benefit of the accused and there being no issue as to
11 the supporting evidence given the nature of the changes made to the
12 indictment, pursuant to Rule 50(A)(i)(c) of the rules leave to amend the
13 indictment is granted and the amended indictment filed on the 12th of June
14 2007 is the operative indictment in the present case.
15 Mr. Tolimir, I appreciate that you would like this matter
16 explained to you again. I have allowed the Prosecution to amend the
17 indictment as indicated, and you can take the matter up later with your
18 permanent counsel hopefully once he or she is appointed and obviously you
19 may discuss it with others in the interim.
20 I'm going to move then to the question of the indictment itself,
21 Mr. Tolimir. At your last appearance, we discussed the indictment and we
22 confirmed that you had received a copy of the indictment in your own
23 language, and also that you had an opportunity to review it and your
24 understanding of it was confirmed on the record at the last hearing.
25 The only change since then are the amendments which I just
1 outlined to you in the previous matter. You will recall from your last
2 appearance that you were then given the opportunity, as is your right, to
3 have the indictment read out to you in full. Now, on that occasion, you
4 waived the right and indicated that you had an opportunity to review the
5 indictment. I would like to offer to you again, at this hearing, the
6 opportunity to have the amended indictment read out in full to you.
7 Can you advise me, do you wish to have the amended indictment read
8 out to you in full today or are you prepared to waive that right,
9 Mr. Tolimir?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I said last time that I
11 wished to have clarified first the manner of my arrest before we go into
12 any further proceedings, and to have it clarified in light of the rules of
13 procedure of this Tribunal, and I asked you to undertake an inquiry into
14 all the circumstances of my illegal arrest and transfer to this Tribunal.
15 I said also that I only linguistically understood the indictment because
16 at the time it was topical, I was at the hospital, but I didn't understand
17 it legally, and I did state also whom I wished to have appointed as my
18 permanent counsel and that matter has not been resolved yet. Only with a
19 permanent counsel can I really discuss the indictment.
20 In that connection, I also asked to receive a transcript of the
21 previous hearing so that I can have it on my own file as a document and to
22 have my own statement at that conference transcribed. I already stated
23 all that I wished for and what I expected, but I have received no
24 response, so I would like you to explain to me what the situation is in
25 light of my stated wishes before we go any further.
1 JUDGE PROST: Thank you, Mr. Tolimir.
2 With respect to the issue that you've raised regarding the manner
3 of your arrest, which you did raise on the previous occasion that you
4 appeared, that is certainly a matter which you may bring to the attention
5 of the Trial Chamber that has been constituted for pre-trial matters, but
6 you would need to do so in the form of an actual written motion that the
7 Trial Chamber can consider. So if you wish to pursue that matter further
8 as indicated to you last time, it is certainly open to you to bring a
9 written motion to the Chamber for the consideration of that particular
11 But as to the situation with respect to your counsel, as I'm sure
12 you're aware, Mr. Tolimir, the primary responsibility for the assignment
13 of counsel under the rules of the Tribunal rests with the registrar. I
14 know that you've been having discussions and meetings and liaising with
15 the Registrar and the relevant officials in order to try and assign you
16 permanent counsel which of course is a matter of utmost importance and
17 certainly the Registry is aware of that.
18 While the Chamber has always a review capacity with respect to
19 that issue, I would simply encourage you to continue the discussions which
20 are taking place in order to try and have counsel assigned to you in -- as
21 soon as possible because it is important obviously from your perspective
22 and certainly for the Trial Chamber as well. So at this stage,
23 Mr. Tolimir, the discussions with the Registrar, I would encourage you to
24 continue those and to try and come to a conclusion that will be acceptable
25 and in your interests with respect to the appointment of counsel.
1 But at this stage, Mr. Tolimir, the issue at hand is the
2 indictment and whether or not you wish to have the indictment read out to
3 you here this morning, and I'm not clear from your response whether you
4 would like that to be done or if you're prepared to waive the reading of
5 the indictment at this stage.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just wanted to draw your attention
7 to the fact that the manner of my arrest has had an impact also on the
8 contents of the indictment. That is why I wanted to state those
9 circumstances which are relevant to the amending of the indictment and any
10 further proceedings. I was arrested in Belgrade, Serbia. After that
11 arrest I was kidnapped and illegally transferred to the location mentioned
12 in the indictment, while I had not been at that location, neither at the
13 time the indictment was brought nor in the period that is charged. I was
14 kept there for half a day and recorded secretly or not secretly for
15 reasons unknown to me and the entire public was deceived into believing
16 that I was arrested in Bratunac, which seemed to have the effect of
17 incriminating me in the sense that the criminal was arrested at the scene
18 of the crime.
19 This is well known to the representatives of this Tribunal and all
20 the authorities that were involved in my arrest and transfer to this
21 Tribunal. That is why I wanted to draw your attention to these
22 circumstances because I don't wish them to be portrayed as the truth, the
23 legal truth, while being a complete lie. That is why I wanted this
24 Tribunal to take statements from persons in Belgrade, Serbia, and persons
25 from this Tribunal, from the OTP and from NATO, that would serve as a
1 basis for further proceedings. I still emphasise that I was kidnapped and
2 that members of the Prosecution were involved in this kidnapping. All the
3 authorities of Serbia and Republika Srpska, beginning with Prime
4 Ministers, heads of state, ministers of justice, ministers of Interior,
5 and all the other bodies cooperating with this Tribunal continue saying
6 after my arrest that I was not arrested by official authorities. If I was
7 not arrested by official authorities, as they confirmed through their
8 spokesmen, that means that I was arrested by whom? Persons in camouflage
9 uniforms. So that I can't know even who arrested me and who had me
10 extradited from Serbia to Republika Srpska without a warrant after which
11 the authorities of Republika Srpska transferred me to the Tribunal. That
12 is why I wanted those statements taken so that they can serve as a basis
13 to complement all the other material supporting the indictment.
14 I asked you even last time to have this done, but I was not told
15 that a written submission is required. If my counsel had been allowed to
16 discuss with me all the -- these matters and the circumstances of my
17 arrest, I would have had that submission prepared. However, what we have
18 here is a manipulation of public opinion and a manipulation of this
19 Tribunal at the expense of taxpayers because I seem to have been
20 compromised in this sense. I don't know whose money is involved, the
21 money of the states involved or the money of NATO --
22 JUDGE PROST: If I could stop you there. I appreciate that this
23 is an issue of concern to you and as I've indicated to you, it is a matter
24 that the Chamber will certainly have regard to but we would need to have
25 full submissions on it. I'm sorry if that was not clear to you from the
1 previous occasion. But I would invite you to make your submissions on
2 these issues relating to your arrest in writing to the Chamber and
3 hopefully, the appointment process for your counsel will proceed such that
4 he or she can assist you in that process, but today's hearing is for a
5 very specific purpose, Mr. Tolimir, and we need to proceed to consider
6 that specific issue, which is the entrance of your pleas to the
8 So I appreciate that it is an important issue for you and you have
9 strong feelings regarding it, and as indicated we are certainly prepared
10 to hear your submissions on it but today's hearing has been carried out
11 under Rule 62 as a further appearance with regard to your plea. So I have
12 to ask you to return to that issue at this time, Mr. Tolimir.
13 Once again, would you like the indictment read out to you prior to
14 the taking of the pleas today or are you prepared to waive the reading of
15 that indictment and proceed directly to the question of your plea?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you for your understanding. I
17 beg of you, in view of the fact that I do not have counsel and I am not
18 allowed to have contact with the counsel I have chosen, to allow me, in
19 view of the kidnapping and my illegal transfer to the Tribunal, to state
20 verbally my request because I'm not in a position to present written
21 submission because I have -- I'm not legally represented before this
22 Court. All my documents have been taken away from me, and I have no
23 rights. I don't even know to which state I belong. I have four proposals
24 to make, if you allow, before we follow the procedure as you planned it.
25 Thank you.
1 JUDGE PROST: Mr. Tolimir, it would be my reference if we could
2 deal with the matters at hand today that are of importance in terms of
3 the proceedings, which is of importance, not to suggest that the matters
4 you wish to raise are not of importance, but the hearing is a very
5 specific one with a specific purpose. What I would suggest is that we
6 proceed with the issue of the plea and some other matters and then at the
7 end, I will give you an opportunity to highlight to me the four issues
8 that you wish to bring to my attention.
9 Would that be -- that would be my suggested way to proceed. So we
10 will deal with the questions relating to the purpose of the hearing,
11 Rule 62, and then at the end I will give you an opportunity to bring to my
12 attention the matters that you wish to put forward.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. But I hope you will take
14 into account that I do not wish to embark upon a legal procedure
15 proceeding from an illegal basis, in view of my illegal arrest. In light
16 of that I won't be able to make a plea. It's been already a month since
17 my kidnapping and arrest, and I have had no news that anything has been
18 done in terms of my requests. If you do not allow me to make these
19 proposals, then I cannot proceed from an illegal basis into a legal
20 procedure. And I don't want this lie dressed into a legal truth. I don't
21 want it to be represented, portrayed, as a legal fact.
22 JUDGE PROST: I appreciate those -- that position, Mr. Tolimir,
23 and as indicated, I will allow you to bring forward your arguments but
24 obviously there would be no decisions taken on them today in any event
25 such that we need to proceed in accordance with the rules of procedure
1 applicable in the Tribunal and obviously any subsequent determinations
2 would then have their recourse in law. So it is not that you're being
3 denied any opportunity to present your arguments regarding your arrest, as
4 indicated. We will receive any such submissions and that would obviously
5 allow you to present your points. As indicated I'm also prepared to hear
6 you make your submissions today, but we do need first of all to deal with
7 the pleas. So unless you indicate that you wish the reading waived, I am
8 at this stage going to ask Madam Registrar to read the indictment to you
9 in full. Do you wish to have the indictment read to you, Mr. Tolimir?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I wanted to say that I
11 have already given a month to this Tribunal to investigate the
12 circumstances of my arrest, to be able to embark on a really legal
13 procedure. I do not wish to make any pleas until this Tribunal starts a
14 real inquiry into the manner of my arrest, kidnapping and transfer to this
15 Tribunal by persons who did it illegally, unlawfully and contrary to the
16 laws where I -- of the country where I was arrested and contrary to the
17 rules of this Tribunal, and even the rules followed by the Office of the
18 Prosecutor. That is my personal position, and in light of that, I do not
19 wish to enter into any other proceedings, including the reading of the
20 indictment, which is already on my desk in front of me, and I do not wish
21 to make a plea either.
22 JUDGE PROST: Mr. Tolimir, do I take it, then, that you do not
23 wish to have the indictment read, that you're waiving that right? Because
24 if not, we will proceed with the reading of the indictment immediately.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am waiving the right. I'm opposed
1 to having the amended indictment read. I am opposed to entering a plea at
2 this point because I have not had any opportunity to discuss either the
3 indictment or any other matters concerning my arrest with my chosen
4 counsel. The registrar has denied me the right to have my chosen counsel
5 represent me in these proceedings. Thank you.
6 JUDGE PROST: Thank you, Mr. Tolimir.
7 Pursuant to the rules of the Tribunal, you are called upon, as you
8 were, as was explained to you at the initial appearance, within 30 days of
9 your initial appearance, you will be called upon to enter a plea of guilty
10 or not guilty in respect of each count of the indictment. I appreciate
11 the statement that you have made, which makes it very clear that you do
12 not wish to enter a plea at this time, and I am satisfied that tomorrow,
13 which would be the 30th day, your position would remain the same, that you
14 do not wish to enter a plea prior to the appointment of permanent counsel,
15 so on that basis, the rules provide that a plea will be entered on your
16 behalf, should you not be prepared to enter pleas to the counts to the
18 So with your having waived the reading of the indictment,
19 Mr. Tolimir, what I'm going to do is I am going to read to you the charges
20 in each count of the indictment so that you are aware of them, and I will
21 ask you in relation to each of them how you plead to the charge, guilty or
22 not guilty, and I understand from your statement that you do not wish to
23 enter pleas today and I anticipate you may therefore remain silent in
24 response to those questions but I will put them to you in any event, and
25 should you decide to remain silent in response to those questions, that
1 combined with your statement, I will take to mean that you failed to enter
2 a plea and in accordance with the rules, I will proceed to enter pleas of
3 not guilty on your behalf.
4 For the purposes of the pleas, Mr. Tolimir, I would invite you,
5 please, to stand while I put the counts in the indictment to you. Would
6 you stand, please, Mr. Tolimir?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just say one sentence?
8 JUDGE PROST: Certainly, Mr. Tolimir.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I did not say that I don't want to
10 enter a plea, but I don't want to enter a plea for as long as each legal
11 aspect of each count has not been explained to me by my counsel because in
12 the period since my last appearance before this Court, I have not been
13 allowed to talk to my counsel about anything to do with my arrest or the
14 indictment. The only topic of our conversation under supervision, had to
15 do with the choice of my permanent counsel. I said that I do want to
16 enter a plea but only when I have a legal understanding of the indictment.
17 I have not had any problems with understanding it linguistically,
18 as I told you last time. When I'm assigned my chosen counsel to represent
19 me, then he will explain each count to me and I will enter a plea on each
20 count. Don't take away this right from me with your decree as to whether
21 I plead guilt/or not. Thank you.
22 JUDGE PROST: Thank you, Mr. Tolimir. The difficulty,
23 Mr. Tolimir, is that the requirement is that you enter the -- a plea today
24 or within the 30 day period, in accordance with the rules and it is not
25 clear at this time when your permanent counsel will be appointed. Those
1 discussions are ongoing. And what I would suggest, Mr. Tolimir, is if we
2 deal with your pleas today, it will certainly be open to you, in
3 accordance with Rule 62 bis, should you enter a not guilty pleas today or
4 those not guilty pleas are entered today, you will have an opportunity,
5 pursuant to Rule 62 bis, to change a plea at a later point in time.
6 But I would suggest that today, we proceed with the pleas and I
7 will read to you each charge. Now, if you would like an opportunity to
8 discuss the matter further with duty counsel with respect to the
9 indictment, I'm certainly prepared to grant you an opportunity to do that
10 right now, but otherwise, it is necessary to proceed with the entering of
11 a plea today, as I know these matters have been discussed with you.
12 I appreciate your position with regard to the appointment of your
13 counsel, but you can understand that in terms of the proceedings in the
14 Tribunal that it is necessary to have an indication on the indictment in
15 accordance with the rules. Would you like an opportunity to discuss the
16 matter with Mr. Sahota at this time?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I do not wish to discuss
18 the matter with Mr. Sahota. I asked you that I not enter a plea in view
19 of my poor health and unclear legal situation until my permanent counsel
20 is appointed and until he explains to me each count of the indictment.
21 Please take my suggestion into account and don't deny me this right, but
22 you may decide of course in accordance with your procedures. Thank you.
23 JUDGE PROST: Thank you, Mr. Tolimir. I'm going to proceed to
24 read the counts in the indictment to you at this stage, and as indicated,
25 if you do not wish to enter your plea today for the reasons that you have
1 expressed, then I will enter the pleas accordingly with reference to the
2 indictment. Are you prepared to stand, Mr. Tolimir, for the reading of
3 the counts?
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, but please consider this once
5 again. Why are you denying me the right to plead after receiving legal
6 advice from my lawyer who has been here in The Hague ever since the 6th of
7 June but has not been allowed to discuss the indictment with me? I'm
8 surprised to have all this imposed on me. I don't wish it to be read, I'm
9 asking you not to read it, but you may do as you see fit.
10 Thank you. Excuse me.
11 JUDGE PROST: Mr. Tolimir, as indicated the matter of your
12 appointment of counsel is an ongoing matter under discussion, as you know,
13 with the registrar. There are certain requirements that must be dealt
14 with for the appointment of counsel and so at this time I will read to you
15 the counts of the indictment.
16 Count 1 charges you with genocide, punishable under
17 Articles 4(3)(a) and 7(1) of the statute. How do you plead, guilty or not
19 On the basis of your silence and the statements that you have made
20 a plea of not guilty will be entered to count 1 of the indictment.
21 Counts 2 of the indictment charges you with conspiracy to commit
22 genocide, punishable under Articles 4(3)(b) and 7(1) of the Statute. How
23 do you plead, guilty or not guilty?
24 On the basis of your silence and the statements made, a plea of
25 not guilty will be entered to count 2 of the indictment.
1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
2 JUDGE PROST: Mr. Tolimir, Mr. Tolimir, are you prepared to put
3 your headphones on, please, sir? Madam Registrar?
4 [Registrar and accused confer]
5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
6 JUDGE PROST: Mr. Tolimir, you have decided to fail to place your
7 headphones on so that you're not receiving interpretation. I'm going to
8 suggest that we take a short break, at which time I'll ask
9 Madam Registrar, through the -- through an interpreter to speak with you
10 regarding the headphones, and I would invite duty counsel, Mr. Sahota, if
11 you could please speak with Mr. Tolimir and we will reconvene in ten
12 minutes' time. Thank you.
13 --- Break taken at 9.43 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 10.01 a.m.
15 JUDGE PROST: Mr. Tolimir, I will confirm on the record that I've
16 been advised during the break you were given an opportunity to meet with
17 duty counsel and to have duty counsel explain anything you wished to you
18 through an interpreter. You have also had access to duty counsel during
19 the course of your time at the Tribunal.
20 We have now placed speakers into the courtroom so that the
21 proceedings are being translated to you into a language that you
22 understand. I wish that to be on the record.
23 I'm going to proceed again with the reading of the counts of the
24 indictment with a view to the pleas.
25 Count 1 charges you with genocide, punishable under Articles
1 4(3)(a) and 7(1) of the Statute. How do you plead, guilty or not guilty?
2 On the basis of your silence and statements made, a plea of not
3 guilty will be entered on count 1 of the indictment.
4 On count 2 you are charged with conspiracy to commit genocide
5 punishable under Articles 4(3)(b) and 7(1) of the Statute. How do you
6 plead, guilty or not guilty?
7 On the basis of your silence and statement made, a plea of not
8 guilty will be entered to count 2.
9 Count 3 of the indictment charges you with extermination, a crime
10 against humanity, punishable under Articles 5(b) and 7(1) of the Statute.
11 How do you plead, guilty or not guilty?
12 On the basis of your silence and statement made, a plea of not
13 guilty will be entered to count 3 of the indictment.
14 Count 4 charges you with murder, a crime against humanity,
15 punishable under Articles 5(a) and 7(1) of the Statute. How do you plead,
16 guilty or not guilty?
17 Again on the basis of your silence and statement made, a plea of
18 not guilty will be entered on count 4 of the indictment.
19 Count 5 charges you with murder, a violation of the laws or
20 customs of war, punishable under Articles 3 and 7(1) of the Statute. How
21 do you plead, guilty or not guilty?
22 On the basis of your silence and statement made a plea of not
23 guilty will be entered to count 5.
24 Count 6 charges you with persecutions on political, racial, and
25 religious grounds, a crime against humanity, including murder, cruel and
1 inhuman treatment, terrorising the civilian population, destruction of
2 personal property, and forcible transfer, punishable under Articles 5(h)
3 and 7(1) of the Statute. How do you plead, guilty or not guilty?
4 On the basis of your silence and statement made, a plea of not
5 guilty will be entered on your behalf.
6 Count 7 charges you with inhumane acts, forcible transfer, a crime
7 against humanity punishable under Articles 5(i) and 7(1) of the Statute.
8 How do you plead, guilty or not guilty?
9 On the basis of your silence and statement made a plea of not
10 guilty will be entered to count 7 of the indictment.
11 Count 8 charges you with deportation, a crime against humanity,
12 punishable under Articles 5(d) and 7(1) of the Statute. How do you plead,
13 guilty or not guilty?
14 Again on the basis of your silence and statement made, a plea of
15 not guilty will be entered on count 8 of the indictment.
16 Madam Registrar, please note that as the accused has failed to
17 enter a plea, pleas of not guilty have been entered in relation to each
18 count of the indictment.
19 Mr. Tolimir, let me emphasise to you again that the pleas that
20 have been entered today, once you have permanent counsel appointed, there
21 are provisions in Rule 62 bis that would allow you at a later stage at any
22 time to change your plea if you chose to do so. And so that your rights
23 in that respect are not affected. Also, I appreciate that you wish to
24 have permanent counsel, but through these preliminary stages pending that
25 determination, you have now and still have available to you duty counsel
1 to explain any matters to you.
2 As the matter of the appointment of your permanent counsel may
3 take more time, I emphasise to you that you do have available to you in
4 the interim, should you wish to take advantage of it, the use of duty
5 counsel and I would encourage you to continue the discussions that you
6 have been having with the Registrar towards a successful conclusion on the
7 appointment of your permanent counsel. I understand the importance of
8 that matter to you obviously, and hope that your discussions will lead to
9 a successful conclusion in that respect.
10 I would also reiterate, and I will give you an opportunity at the
11 end of our proceedings today, that you may bring to the Chamber's
12 attention any matters you wish to raise regarding your arrest, as you have
13 outlined both at your first appearance and today, and if you could bring a
14 written motion forward on that, that will certainly be given
16 Mr. Tolimir, I wanted to deal with you on a couple of other
17 matters. First of all, I was in receipt of your submission dated the 19th
18 of June, which I received on the 22nd, asking that the orders that had
19 been served upon you, orders of the Trial Chamber, be translated into a
20 language that you can understand. In response to that, there have been
21 discussions and I understand that arrangements have been made for any such
22 orders to be provided to you in a language that you understand. Are you
23 able to confirm for me that you are receiving the Chamber's orders in
24 a language that you understand?
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have not received any
1 orders of the Chamber so far, and as for notices about this conference and
2 the appointment of the Pre-Trial Judge, I have received those.
3 JUDGE PROST: You have received those?
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [In English] Thank you.
5 JUDGE PROST: I will -- the only other order I believe,
6 Mr. Tolimir, that you should have received was the order, which actually
7 relates to the next topic, was the order suspending temporarily the filing
8 deadlines with respect to the motion for joinder. And I believe that
9 that -- that attempts were made to serve that upon you. But in any event
10 I do wish to discuss with you at this stage the joinder motion. On the
11 26th of June, Mr. Tolimir, the Trial Chamber received your filing that you
12 made, the submission that you made on the 19th of June, in which you
13 advised us of some of your submissions regarding the Prosecution's motion
14 for the joinder of your case to that of Popovic et al. We have taken note
15 of the substantive points you have made against joinder, and we also note
16 your statement that you will define other reasons for -- in relation to
17 the joinder motion after permanent counsel has been assigned to you.
18 The Trial Chamber is of course, Mr. Tolimir, wishes -- we wish
19 very much to hear your full submissions on the issue of joinder, and we
20 appreciate that it would be beneficial obviously to have the assistance of
21 your permanent counsel for that purpose. But as we know, the discussions
22 relating to appointment of counsel are ongoing. At the same time,
23 Mr. Tolimir, I'm sure you can appreciate that the issue of joinder
24 concerns not only your interests but also impacts directly on the rights
25 of seven other accused in Popovic et al, as you yourself acknowledged in
1 the filing that you've made to the Trial Chamber. There are also public
2 interests as represented by the Prosecution in relation to this motion.
3 And the Trial Chamber also has an overarching responsibility to ensure a
4 fair and efficient trial process in both cases. And for that reason,
5 while we would very much like to receive your full submissions with the
6 benefit of your counsel, we simply cannot delay the responses on the
7 joinder motion and a decision on that motion indefinitely while the issue
8 of counsel is settled.
9 To that end, last Thursday, the Defence teams in Popovic et al
10 were given the deadline of July 13th to make their responses to the
11 motion. We have not yet set any deadline for you and before doing so, I
12 would invite you to make any submissions on this issue to me, submissions
13 regarding deadlines on the submissions with respect to the joinder motion.
14 Do you have anything you wish to say to me, Mr. Tolimir, on that question?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have nothing to say on
16 that issue, but I said that I wish to consult my lawyer who has been here
17 since the 6th of June, and he's now in the public gallery, on all issues
18 including entering a plea. However, the Registry has insisted on
19 maintaining this illegal situation in which I am in.
20 JUDGE PROST: Thank you, Mr. Tolimir.
21 Mr. McCloskey, does the Prosecution have any submissions they wish
22 to make regarding the filing of response by Mr. Tolimir in relation to the
23 joinder motion?
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Not at this time, Madam President.
25 JUDGE PROST: Thank you.
1 Mr. Tolimir, having heard the submissions of parties, and taking
2 into consideration the urgency of the matter, balancing the various rights
3 in issue, I am ordering that you file any further submissions on the issue
4 of joinder no later than the 17th of July 2007.
5 If there are delays with the appointment of counsel, I would urge
6 you again to consider making use of duty counsel to assist you. You may
7 also seek advice outside of the context of your permanent counsel
8 relationship, you may certainly seek advice from advisers, and I would ask
9 you to try and make any further submissions to the Trial Chamber by the
10 17th of July. However, I emphasise that if no further submissions are
11 forthcoming by that date, the Trial Chamber will proceed to deal with the
12 motion taking into account, of course, the submissions that we have
13 already received from you on the 19th of June, and I hope very much,
14 Mr. Tolimir, that prior to the date of the 17th of July, you will have
15 permanent counsel in place. But as indicated you may use duty counsel or
16 other advisers to help you with the preparation of any such submissions if
17 you choose so. A written order setting out those deadlines will be
18 provided to you.
19 Now, Mr. McCloskey, could you update me as to the service or
20 disclosure of the supporting material under Rule 66? I understand there
21 has been some progress but some difficulties.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's my understanding that all the material was
23 delivered to the Registrar for delivery to the accused on 27 of June. And
24 that can be reflected in a 27 June letter to the Registrar where we've
25 listed that.
1 JUDGE PROST: You've received nothing further, I take it,
2 Mr. McCloskey, since that service?
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: No. We -- there is a receipt that goes along with
4 it, and it does take some time to go through the material in order to sign
5 off the receipt. We normally get the receipt signed initially by counsel
6 and then if there are problems later we find out about it, but that hasn't
7 happened yet. We have received nothing, though we have received word from
8 the Registry that they did receive that material and sent it on.
9 JUDGE PROST: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.
10 Mr. Tolimir, I take it that -- or perhaps I can ask you: Have you
11 received the material referenced here, which is the disclosure required
12 under Rule 66(A)(i) of the supporting materials with respect to the
13 indictment served by the Registry?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have received nothing
15 and I would appreciate it if you could take into account my statement of
16 the 4th of June that I do not accept the appointed counsel and that
17 pending the appointment of my permanent counsel I will represent myself.
18 Since that time I have no contact with my permanent counsel, and I wish to
19 apologise now to Mr. Sahota for being forced to be here at all, and the
20 precedent for my situation already exists in the case of Blagojevic where
21 counsel was present despite the will of the accused.
22 JUDGE PROST: Madam Registrar, can you confirm that attempts were
23 made to serve the material?
24 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. That is the case, Madam President.
25 JUDGE PROST: Thank you. I'm satisfied that the Prosecution has
1 fulfilled their obligations under the rule in terms of disclosure as best
2 possible for the purposes of that rule.
3 Now, however, due to the absence, Mr. Tolimir, I appreciate that
4 no permanent counsel has been appointed to you, and normally, under
5 Rule 72(A), once the material is disclosed to you, the material under
6 66(A)(i), there is a 30 day time limit for motions, preliminary motions,
7 to be brought by the Defence. However, I wish to confirm clearly on the
8 record that in this case, because no permanent counsel has yet been
9 appointed, those deadlines are not running, they are suspended. Now, the
10 only question is when the running of them will commence, and it is rather
11 complicated because of, as foreshadowed by Mr. McCloskey, it is a
12 complicated situation because of service issues on the accused and then
13 transfer of the material to counsel. So what I'm going to suggest is that
14 we will not run the deadlines from the actual appointment of counsel,
15 given it's not clear when counsel will see the material. I would prefer
16 if, once counsel is appointed, if you could arrange to have the material
17 served on counsel and by a filing indicate that that has been done, and
18 then the deadline, the 30 day deadline, can run from that point in time.
19 Mr. McCloskey, does that seem an acceptable process to you?
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Madam President. We have a second complete
21 packet in English and B/C/S for counsel when that time arrives.
22 JUDGE PROST: Thank you. So, Mr. Tolimir, there will be no issues
23 with respect to preliminary motions. There will be no deadlines running
24 at the moment with respect to those preliminary motions. We'll deal with
25 those issues only after you are appointed permanent counsel and permanent
1 counsel will have a 30 day period in discussion with you in which to bring
2 those motions, after having received the material. So that will give you
3 the opportunity to discuss those issues with your counsel and for the
4 moment, no deadlines will be running in respect of that material. Is that
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I understood what you
8 JUDGE PROST: Okay. Madam Registrar, may we go into private
9 session, please, for a moment?
10 [Private session]
11 Page 46 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.
15 JUDGE PROST: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
16 Mr. Tolimir, before I move to the final -- any final matters, you
17 indicated that you wished to make four particular points to me regarding
18 the issue of your arrest, and I'm happy for you to relate those four
19 points to me at this time.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 I suggest to this Court that proceedings be instigated before this
22 Court because of the illegal arrest in which representatives of the OTP,
23 NATO, the country of which I am a national, all participated.
24 I also propose that the statements made by all the legal
25 representatives who made statements on behalf of the countries in which I
1 was arrested and from which I was illegally transferred be taken into
3 I further propose that my suggestion about appointing
4 Mr. Nebojsa Mrkic as my counsel, my permanent Defence counsel, not be
5 rejected, because he is acting for me in solving my problems with these
6 authorities in Serbia, and he has already been appointed legal adviser in
7 some of the previous proceedings.
8 For this reason, I ask that he not be eliminated. He is fully
9 conversant with all the procedures before this Tribunal.
10 Further, I propose that the Court issue an order that public
11 statements be obtained about my arrest. The statements made after my
12 arrest by representatives of the governments of Serbia and
13 Republika Srpska, their presidents of their governments and ministers of
14 foreign and interior affairs, their representatives for cooperation with
15 the ICTY, their spokespersons and the persons who made public statements
16 on behalf of this Tribunal, and that they be used as exhibits, as
17 evidence, to show that I was not arrested by the regular authorities but
18 by criminal groups who arrested me in cooperation with the representatives
19 of this Tribunal and the SFOR in Bosnia-Herzegovina. They have all stated
20 that they did not arrest me or participate in my arrest.
21 I also propose that documents of the competent authorities,
22 courts, the OTP and NATO, be submitted to this Tribunal in order to
23 establish the chain of legal responsibility and to show that no legal
24 document was issued about my arrest or manner of my arrest or anything
25 else in this regard.
1 I wish this to be on the record as evidence.
2 I ask that my counsel be appointed according to my will and my
3 choice. I am a believer. I believe in our lord Jesus Christ and for me
4 every one of God's words in the holy scriptures is the law of life and
5 nothing can contribute to your rules of procedure that would make me act
6 in opposition to the holy scriptures. Therefore, I ask that I be allowed
7 to choose my Defence counsel according to my own will and that he choose
8 the team which will act for me before this Tribunal. He is already
9 registered as counsel before this Tribunal, and he is fully familiar with
10 all your rules and procedures so there would be no obstacle to him
11 representing me.
12 Further, I ask that you bear in mind that this illegal, unlawful
13 situation, my unlawful kidnapping and arrest, and my current state of
14 health, are having an impact on my recovery, and therefore, I do not like
15 having a duty counsel appointed to me against my will. I ask you to stop
16 appointing him, and I have not been allowed to consult my counsel who has
17 been here for a month about entering a plea and a plea was entered on my
18 behalf. I think you shouldn't have denied me this right, but who am I to
19 interfere in your decisions? Further, I ask you that I not enter any
20 pleas on any of the counts in the indictment until I have consulted
21 Nebojsa Mrkic as my counsel and until he is appointed my personal counsel.
22 As for my health, I think I am not disrupting anything either for
23 this Tribunal or for the Detention Unit, that I'm doing everything in
24 accordance with the rules of procedure. I have allowed all sorts of
25 medical examinations to be carried out, but I have refused to take
1 medicine as a form of personal protest against the denial of my rights and
2 what has been done to me so far.
3 Therefore, I ask you once again that before any proceedings begin,
4 proceedings be instigated before this Tribunal to deal with my arrest and
5 kidnapping in Serbia and that this be done in view of what has been done
6 by the representatives of NATO and the Hague Tribunal in Bosnia. Thank
8 JUDGE PROST: Thank you, Mr. Tolimir. Your comments are all here
9 on the record, and we will be considering the statements that you have
10 made. In the meantime, though, Mr. Tolimir, the Trial Chamber may wish to
11 follow up with you on certain issues, so I would encourage you to please
12 accept service of documents coming from the Tribunal in your language,
13 coming from the Chamber, so that you will be informed if we are seeking
14 further information from you. So, please, we understand your wish to
15 represent yourself, and that's acceptable, but in relation to the issues
16 you've raised, and other issues, please do accept the material that may be
17 served on you in this interim period until the appointment of your
18 counsel. Otherwise, I will obviously not provide any reaction today on
19 the matters you have raised.
20 Mr. McCloskey, is there anything the Prosecution wishes to say in
21 relation to the issues raised by Mr. Tolimir today?
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Briefly, regarding the arrest issue, we are
23 getting the various statements from parties involved in that and will
24 provide that material to Mr. Tolimir when we get it.
25 Regarding the -- his request for Mr. Mrkic, that is an OLAD matter
1 at this point. I don't think I will take any position until that matter
2 is resolved from that level.
3 JUDGE PROST: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey. I think that's a wise
5 Mr. Tolimir, the matters you've raised will be taken into
6 consideration. Is there anything else you wish to raise at this stage?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, thank you.
8 JUDGE PROST: Thank you. Mr. McCloskey, anything further from the
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Madam President.
11 JUDGE PROST: Thank you very much.
12 Then I believe -- I will simply advise you, Mr. Tolimir, that
13 there will be, as I mentioned last time, a status conference. It's
14 mandated within 120 days of this appearance, but hopefully well in advance
15 of that, you will have your counsel in place and that -- the purpose of
16 that will be to exchange information between the parties and facilitate
17 preparations for trial, and secondly to review the status of this case and
18 allow you to raise any issues you wish. You will receive further
19 information about that, but as I say hopefully within that time period you
20 will have your counsel.
21 But until such Status Conference, these proceedings are adjourned.
22 I wish a good day to everyone present.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.39