1 Friday, 14 September 2007
2 [Status Conference]
3 [Open session]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.33 p.m.
6 JUDGE PROST: Good afternoon to everyone.
7 Madam Registrar, can you call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honour.
9 This is case number IT-05-88/2-PT, the Prosecutor versus Zdravko
11 JUDGE PROST: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 Mr. Tolimir, I hope that you are hearing me in a language that you
13 can understand, you're receiving interpretation. If, at any point in
14 time, you're not receiving interpretation, please let me know immediately.
15 Thank you.
16 Good afternoon. For the appearances, I note, for the Prosecution,
17 Peter McCloskey, Nelson Thayer, and case manager Janet Stewart.
18 And for Mr. Tolimir, I note that you are present and without
19 counsel by virtue of your election for self-representation.
20 Before we begin with the items on the agenda for the Status
21 Conference itself, I have a preliminary matter which I want to address.
22 I'm informed that, Mr. Tolimir, that you have made a submission
23 earlier this week. The date on it appears to be the 7th of September.
24 And I understand that you wish for this document to be filed as a public
1 In paragraph 5, I believe, of that submission, the name of a staff
2 member has been mentioned, the first and last name, and I understand it's
3 been explained to you, Mr. Tolimir, that such information should not be
4 included in a public document. Therefore, to ensure that your submission
5 can be filed publicly, in accordance with your wishes, I am ordering the
6 redaction of two words in paragraph 5; namely, the first and last name of
7 the UN staff member. And with that single redaction, then the entire
8 document will be accepted as a public filing.
9 Okay. Now we can proceed. We are here. There were initial and
10 further appearances in this matter on the 4th of June and 3rd of July,
11 respectively, and this is the first Status Conference to be held in the
12 present case.
13 And pursuant to Rule 65 bis (A), as you all may be aware, the
14 purpose of the conference is to facilitate exchanges between the parties,
15 for ensuring an expeditious preparation for trial, and to review the
16 status of the case and allow you, Mr. Tolimir, to raise any issues that
17 you wish to bring to my attention.
18 And in that regard, Mr. Tolimir, I have received your submission
19 of the 4th of September in which you outlined certain issues that you
20 wanted to have on the agenda at the Status Conference, and I can assure
21 you that we will get to those particular issues in due course. I've taken
22 note of them, and they are included.
23 I assume, Mr. McCloskey, that you had regard to that submission by
24 Mr. Tolimir.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, I have.
1 JUDGE PROST: Before we do that, though, Mr. Tolimir, I would like
2 to have a discussion with you initially about the decision that you have
3 made to represent yourself in these proceedings because, obviously, it is
4 an extremely serious matter.
5 I've taken note of the comments that you've made in your written
6 filings, in particular your filing of August 10th, where you indicated
7 very clearly you wished to defend yourself in person. And I also note
8 that in response to that filing, the Registry notified the Chamber and the
9 parties of your election to conduct your own defence pursuant to Rule 45
10 (F) of the Rules, and it's on this basis that the representation by duty
11 counsel, Mr. Sahota, has been terminated.
12 But to begin with, Mr. Tolimir, I want to satisfy myself that you
13 fully understand the legal principles that relate to self-representation.
14 Under the Statute of this Tribunal, as interpreted by various
15 Chambers decisions, there is a presumptive right to self-representation on
16 the part of an accused, and that is what you have elected. And this Trial
17 Chamber certainly considers that right to be a fundamental one and will
18 govern itself accordingly at this stage.
19 But at the same time, I want to make you aware that this right is
20 not an absolute one. Even if you have expressed a clear desire to
21 represent yourself, the Trial Chamber always maintains the responsibility
22 to ensure a fair and expeditious trial, as set out in Article 20 and 21 of
23 the Statute, and this is a continuing obligation. It runs through the
24 pre-trial stage and through the trial stage. And as a result, at any
25 point in these proceedings, in the interests of justice and in accordance
1 with the right to a fair trial, the Chamber may decide that we require the
2 imposition of counsel or other similar measures.
3 I am not suggesting that will be the case here. I'm not
4 pre-judging that issue, but I simply want you to be aware that the Chamber
5 is to remain vigilant about this issue and maintains the discretion in
6 this respect to ensure a fair trial.
7 Do you understand that discretion, Mr. Tolimir? Do you have any
8 comments on that? I take that to be "no" at this stage. Is that the
9 case, Mr. Tolimir? You have nothing to add on that issue at this time?
10 Okay. So with this in mind, Mr. Tolimir, I want to explore a bit
11 with you that you fully understand the consequences of the election that
12 you've made for self-representation, and this is based primarily on some
13 of the filings that you've made that have raised some red flags, if you
14 will, for me, in respect to your decision.
15 First of all, there's no need to remind you that we're dealing
16 with an extremely complex and serious case. There are numerous alleged
17 crimes, including the most serious crime of genocide. And in that
18 context, I think it's very important that we're very clear on the
19 ramifications of self-representation.
20 So, first of all, I'm concerned, from your most recent filing --
21 or not now your most recent, but your previously filing of 4th of
22 September, where you put forward issues for the Status Conference, and you
23 made the statement that you wanted your legal adviser, Mr. Mrkic, to come
24 over from Serbia and secure all the necessary documents, to come and
25 appear before this Chamber. That is not the nature of
1 self-representation, Mr. Tolimir.
2 As you have noted yourself, the Tribunal Statute, Article 21(4)(d)
3 states that an accused has the right to defend himself in person or
4 through legal assistance of his choosing. This phrase, by its plain
5 meaning, presents two options, Mr. Tolimir: Self-representation or
6 representation through legal assistance.
7 And if there was any doubt on the point, earlier this week, the
8 Appeals Chamber in the Krajisnik case issued a decision related to
9 self-representation, and in it they state very clearly that the two
10 options that I've just read out in Article 21(4)(d) stand in binary
11 opposition. An accused who chooses to self-represent is not entitled to
12 legal assistance. Thus, you may choose one or the other, but not both.
13 Therefore, what I want to discuss with you and make sure you
14 understand is that in making the election to defend yourself, you're
15 telling me and you're telling the Trial Chamber that you do not wish to be
16 represented by counsel, that you do not need the legal services of
17 Mr. Mrkic or any other lawyer, that you wish to act as your own counsel.
18 You're saying that you wish to take on the burden yourself of
19 preparing and presenting your case, the responsibility for filing written
20 submissions in accordance with the Rules and practice directions, the
21 responsibility to present your oral submissions yourself, to examine and
22 cross-examine witnesses at the trial phase, to make oral and written
23 arguments. All of these would be your responsibility.
24 There is certainly some possibilities of assistance in some
25 respects, but the responsibility for all of these matters, Mr. Tolimir, in
1 a self-representation situation rests with you, and I want you to be fully
2 aware and understand that.
3 Do you understand that, Mr. Tolimir, and do you have any comments
4 that you want to make, particularly in light of the Appeals Chamber's
5 recent decision on this issue?
6 Do you understand the nature of self-representation and that it
7 does preclude what you seem to have requested in previous occasions, which
8 is the assistance of legal counsel?
9 THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Madam President, ladies and
10 gentlemen, I'd like to say good afternoon and to say that I am fully
11 conscious of my responsibilities, and I will perform those
12 responsibilities myself. I have the right to a legal adviser who will
13 advise me on procedural issues, and I will meet all the other
14 responsibilities I have myself.
15 JUDGE PROST: Okay. If I can just explore this just a little
16 further, Mr. Tolimir. When we've met on previous occasions, you've told
17 me that you do need the assistance of a lawyer in many respects. You
18 spoke about needing to understand the full meaning of the procedure, from
19 a legal point of view. You spoke of: "Only with permanent counsel can I
20 discuss the indictment." "I'm not in a position to present legal
21 submissions because I'm not legally represented."
22 So I take it what you're saying, though, is that you now have
23 changed that position and you feel that you are comfortable and competent
24 to present written/oral submissions without legal representation. Is that
25 the case, Mr. Tolimir?
1 THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] I have already said that I
2 will meet all my own responsibilities myself, and my legal adviser is
3 somebody that I can consult on legal issues. And I think we can discuss
4 that issue when we discuss my submission and my requests with respect to
5 the Status Conference.
6 I did not elect to defend myself because I wanted to do so but
7 because the Registry wanted to impose counsel on me of his choice.
8 Thank you.
9 JUDGE PROST: Mr. Tolimir, I just want to make sure that you've
10 indicated fairly clearly, then, that you have made this choice. I'm
11 trusting that in doing so, the sole factor here is not simply the issue
12 that arose as to the selection of your counsel, that you have considered
13 all of the ramifications of this decision, that this is solely not a
14 question of the choice of counsel, that you have considered the matter and
15 feel comfortable in proceeding self-represented.
16 Is that the case, Mr. Tolimir?
17 THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Correct. Okay.
18 JUDGE PROST: All right. Then I will just make you aware, very
19 clearly, that in the course of the proceedings, we're going to come to
20 various issues. And as a self-represented accused, I'm going to be
21 setting deadlines today, then, for the filing of certain written
22 materials, and I want you to be clear that as you're a self-represented
23 accused, those matters will not remain pending, pending any question of
24 assistance to be provided to you.
25 As a self-represented accused, we're going to be setting those
1 deadlines today. So just so that you're clearly aware of that, we will
2 proceed on that basis.
3 The first issue I want to consider with you, Mr. Tolimir, is one
4 of the issues that you put forward in your filing of the 4th of September.
5 I'm interpreting your filing on that date as an application for financed
6 assistance in the preparation of your defence as a self-represented
8 I am comforted to see, from the Registry's submission which was
9 filed on the 13th of September - I understand you have recently received a
10 copy of that - In that submission, the Registry, too, has classified your
11 filing of the 4th of September, as I would have instructed them to do, as
12 an application for financing of your defence.
13 So the first step of that, Mr. Tolimir, is you understand, clearly
14 from your filing, is that that matter needs to be pursued with the
15 Registry. And, obviously, any issues that arise can ultimately come to
16 the Chamber for consideration, but the initial discussions on financing of
17 any assistance should be done with the Registry. And they are, as they've
18 indicated, prepared to proceed with that process, taking into account what
19 the Appeals Chamber has just said on the question.
20 I would encourage you, Mr. Tolimir, because there are a number of
21 formalities that have to be met in that process, to cooperate fully, as
22 I'm sure you will, with the Registry in completing the documentation that
23 they may ask you to fulfill in that regard. And we can take the matter up
24 again, should the need arise, in future Status Conferences. But for the
25 moment, you can pursue that matter with the Registry.
1 Is there anything you wanted to comment, in addition to your
2 filing, on the question of your application for the financing, in light
3 that the first step is with the Registry? Anything else you wish to say
4 to me on that particular point, Mr. Tolimir?
5 THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 What I want to say is this: I want my defence to be financed in
7 keeping with the rules and regulations and the Statute, the international
8 statute, just as the other cases are financed with other people
9 representing themselves. I'm not asking for any exception to that, just
10 that the same criteria be applied to me.
11 Thank you.
12 JUDGE PROST: Fine, Mr. Tolimir, and I'm sure that will be the
13 case. And as indicated, please liaise with the Registry, as I'm sure they
14 will do with you, in pursuit of your application, and I'm sure it will be
15 considered in accordance with the rules in place in the Tribunal.
16 Mr. McCloskey, did you have any comments on that particular issue?
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Madam President.
18 JUDGE PROST: Thank you.
19 I'm going to move to a different, though interrelated topic, and
20 it is also an agenda item, Mr. Tolimir, that you put forward, and
21 certainly a matter that I was intending to raise with you, and that is the
22 issue of the communication with you by the Chamber, by the Registry, by
23 the Office of the Prosecutor.
24 I can't over-emphasise, Mr. Tolimir, the importance, since you are
25 self-represented, of you receiving considering reviewing the relevant
1 documents in this case. Obviously, that's fundamental. However, I'm
2 informed, and I have read your filings, and it appears you continue to
3 refuse to accept almost every document that has been served on you. At
4 least since your intentions regarding self-representation have become
5 clear, steps have been taken, and I have been watching that carefully, to
6 ensure that you receive your documents translated into Serbian, which is
7 your native language and which you understand. And yet you continue to
8 refuse to accept these documents, including various orders, the supporting
9 material for the indictment, decisions, even the decision scheduling the
10 Status Conference itself.
11 I understand as well that, despite your specific request to the
12 Chamber, you refuse to accept the audiotapes of the first two appearances
13 which I had ordered be provided to you.
14 Obviously, this is a situation, Mr. Tolimir, that can't continue.
15 Can you please explain to me why you are refusing to accept these
16 important materials that have been served on you, especially in light of
17 your decision to self-represent?
18 THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Madam President, ladies and
19 gentlemen, before we come to the essence of the questions discussed here
20 and the issues raised by the Presiding Judge and by everything, I would
21 like to wish you goodwill from God and Jesus Christ, and that we complete
22 this trial in accordance with God's will. Praise be the Lord.
23 A prayer follows. May our souls be saved. May the souls of the
24 Presiding Judge be saved and all the Trial Chambers and everybody in the
25 Tribunal, and all the people in the Office of the Prosecutor and
1 Prosecutors, and the souls of all counsel in the Defence counsel and
2 others, the secretaries and everybody else, those in the Detention Centre,
3 those employed in the Detention Centre, and the warden of the Detention
4 Centre, all the interpreters and translators and everybody attending this
5 trial via the information media. May your souls be saved and may God's
6 will be done, and may we be cleansed of our sins.
7 Thank you for hearing me and for enabling me to say that before we
8 begin the trials, and, once again, I appeal to our Lord saviour, God
9 Almighty, to preserve us and preserve our souls. You will have my vision
10 of this situation and my request and demand that we all be helped and
11 assisted in our lives by God.
12 I'll now answer the questions that the Presiding Judge has put to
14 My communication with this Court, with the Tribunal, with the
15 Secretariat, with the Registrar, is nonexistent. I have not received any
16 documents since I requested that they be provided to me in my mother
17 tongue, which is Serbian, and in the Cyrillic alphabet, which is in
18 official use in Serbia. The Constitutions of Serbia and Article 10 of
19 that Constitution provides for the fact that the official language is the
20 Serbian language and that the alphabet is the Cyrillic alphabet.
21 I should like this right to be ensured for me in this
22 International Tribunal, and my country is a recognised member state and it
23 recognises this Tribunal.
24 I would like to draw your attention to the fact that language is a
25 basic characteristic of mankind which enables complex social life and all
1 aspects of that life, and I will need to focus all my attention and all my
2 energy in defending myself from the indictment and charges against me.
3 And I think that you should enable me to defend myself in the language
4 that I speak and in the language that I think, because language and
5 thought are closely connected. They are intertwined, and enable precise
6 expression and understanding of concepts, and that, of course, is very
7 important here at the Tribunal, which is here to make decisions.
8 I don't think I need stress how important this is in view of the
9 fact that everybody has that right, except for us Serbs who are being
10 tried here before The Hague Tribunal. And I wish to stress that of 146
11 accused who have passed through this courtroom, 70 per cent are Serbs,
12 which means three-quarters of us have been denied the right of being tried
13 in the language which we speak, the language which we read and right in;
14 that is to say, in our mother tongue.
15 Now, the other 32 accused do use their own language and their own
16 alphabet. This is highly indicative if we bear in mind that the Serb
17 language is the oldest language, if we compare the languages of the other
18 accused persons here, because the Cyrillic alphabet and Serb language
19 first came into being in the ninth century, following Chilean Methodius.
20 And the written documents date back many centuries, and one in particular
21 from the 14th century speaks about the importance of this. The document
22 is under UNESCO protection.
23 I would, therefore, like to ask you and entreat you to understand
24 my position, that the first code according to which people were judged in
25 the 13th century, was Dusan's Code, which was also written in the Cyrillic
1 alphabet. And I think that this Tribunal should respect that fact. The
2 Turks tried to destroy the Serbian language and Cyrillic alphabet from
3 1379 to 1887. However, during this period of time, we had a man named
4 Vukaradzic [phoen], who transformed the national language into a literary
5 language used by all Serb Slav nations.
6 JUDGE PROST: Mr. Tolimir, I am going to stop you there because I
7 want to focus on the issue at hand. I think I have very clearly your
8 point with respect to the language issue.
9 I have listened to you now and I have read your submissions on
10 this matter, your written submissions, and I just want to be very clear.
11 You're not suggesting to me for a moment that you do not read and
12 understand Serbian written in the Latin text. What you're telling me is
13 that your position is based on the fact that the Cyrillic alphabet is the
14 recognised script in your native country?
15 That is correct, isn't it, Mr. Tolimir? You do read and
16 understand Serbian in Latin script?
17 THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] I cannot --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The microphone is switched
20 THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] I cannot understand the
21 language which exists in the documents submitted to me, nor can I
22 understand documents unless they're in Serbian. I wanted to go on to
23 elaborate and say what the differences were in the division between the
24 Serb language and the Croatian language, the differences that exist, and
25 this creates difficulties as far as being tried here.
1 These languages never became literary languages. These are the
2 ones. And in 1954, an attempt was made for them to be a joint literary
3 language. Croatia gave that up. And in the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina,
4 this was completely given up. So, here, we can just hear the different
5 dialogues, the different accents of words which we understand as concepts,
6 but we can't understand them in all their content.
7 If I tell you that in Croatia a judgement is not "presuda"
8 [phoen], as it is in Serbian, but "provnarejec" [phoen], then these are
9 two different terms, and you would have to look in a dictionary to see
10 what the words exactly mean. And here we have "Bosniak" used and
11 "Croatian" used, and I'm not able to understand that particular word and
12 term. I have had to ask my Croatian colleagues, because in Serbian it is
13 "presuda"; and in Croatian, the word, it is different. And I'm sure the
14 interpreters and translators can't come up with words like that very
16 So I don't want to be tried under conditions of that kind, where I
17 don't understand the language, all the more so, as it is very simple to
18 provide me with the documents in the language and alphabet that I know;
19 all the more so, as it's only the translators that have to read these
20 written documents, not you.
21 Now, I don't know English, of course, so I can only read the
22 documents supplied by the Registrar to me in translations. So it's just
23 the translators that have to have these different documents, the different
24 languages, and it's easier for a translator to learn the Cyrillic alphabet
25 than it is for me to learn the Croatian language; whereas, if you want me
1 just to understand the terms and concepts used in a very superficial way,
2 then that is your will.
3 I wish to be tried in my own language so that I can understand
4 fully all the contents of the documents that are supplied me and
5 everything that is said to me.
6 And then there is another problem, when we see that all this is
7 supplied in computer form, then --
8 JUDGE PROST: Let's break this down, Mr. Tolimir, because I don't
9 want to be mixing concepts here.
10 The first question I want you to answer for me: Do you read and
11 understand Serbian - let's focus for the moment on the Serbian language -
12 written in Latin as opposed to the Cyrillic script?
13 THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] I don't understand it
15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the microphone be activated, please?
16 JUDGE PROST: Mr. Tolimir, you have to make sure you activate your
17 microphone when you speak.
18 THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam President.
19 I cannot use it and don't know how to use it, because I just used the
20 Latinic script in primary school, when I had to use it, when I had to
21 write in the Latin script, so that was for the first eight years of my
22 schooling; whereas, the translators learn this written form at university.
23 I don't know why you want to put me through this all over again.
24 If a translator knows both scripts, they learn it. They have set
25 examinations for that. But I'm just reading translations. So they can be
1 translated in Cyrillic, and this is even easier if you have the assistance
2 of the computer. A computer programme does that, so you don't need
3 translators for that at all. If you write a text in the Serb language,
4 just by pressing a button that same text can appear in the Cyrillic.
5 Now, why you don't want to do this, I don't know. I don't want to
6 go into those technical reasons. However, I'd like to ask you that you
7 take on board my requests and that I be supplied with documents in my own
8 language, a language in which I can think quickly and react quickly.
9 Now, if I were to elaborate what man's thoughts are, then we would
10 come to the conclusion that thoughts in man are quicker than light, travel
11 quicker than light. And while I'm in the courtroom, I need to read and
12 listen and look at things written in my own language.
13 Thank you. I also understand you.
14 JUDGE PROST: Thank you, Mr. Tolimir.
15 You have identified basically three points, as I understand it:
16 One, you appear to be suggesting to me that you don't read the Latin
17 script; and, secondly, that there is some issue as to whether the
18 translations and interpretation you are receiving is in Serbian, as you
19 understand it; and, thirdly, you have made reference to the computer, the
20 use of the computer programme.
21 Are you saying that you're unable to use the computer programme,
22 Mr. Tolimir, unable to use a computer?
23 THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
24 What I want to say is that the people supplying me with documents
25 in the Serb language, in the Latin script, should learn to use a computer;
1 and then by just pressing a button, that Cyrillic script will be
2 transformed by the computer itself into the Latin script, or vice versa.
3 Not me. When I am given a computer and have the texts, then I'll be able
4 to do that.
5 But why can't the technical service of the Registry do that? Is
6 it only because it involves the Cyrillic script or is there some other
7 reason, because there's no other reason? If you consider that what I say
8 is incorrect, you can call upon computer experts, and they'll be able to
9 tell you that the Serb language can be translated into English, not only
10 the Cyrillic and Latin script.
11 And I was going to tell you that Vukaradzic coordinated that, but
12 you wouldn't let me elaborate on that particular part of what I was
14 JUDGE PROST: I think we can to focus on the issue at hand,
15 Mr. Tolimir, and I am still not clear on one point, and we may need to
16 have some written submissions on this if you're unable to clarify this for
18 Can you read and understand Serbian? I understand all of your
19 submissions. I understand your position, I do, with respect to the fact
20 that Serbian and the Cyrillic script are the national languages of the
21 country that you come from. I do understand that. But what I need to
22 know from you is whether you can read and understand Serbian in the Latin
23 script. That's what I need to know from you, Mr. Tolimir, whether you're
24 able to read it and understand it.
25 I have taken all your other submissions, and I will deal with them
1 in due course, but I need that question answered clearly and
3 THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam President.
4 I'm going to tell you very briefly that it is with great effort
5 that I would be able to read a document in Serbian but written in the
6 Latin script. I'd have to go back and learn it again, because it's been
7 more than 40 years since I had to learn it. And I can't read it with the
8 facility that I can in Cyrillic. I can't take notes. I can't translate
9 and transplant one language into another as quickly as I would like to. I
10 would have to think how to write this all down. So I can't read it, and
11 I'd like to ask this Court to respect that and to provide me with
12 documents in a language that I can read and understand.
13 If nothing else is possible, then you can supply the documents to
14 me in Macedonian, because this Court uses Macedonian, or perhaps in
15 Russian, because they are all Cyrillic-based languages. I do not have
16 sufficient knowledge and understanding of the Latin script.
17 Thank you.
18 JUDGE PROST: Mr. Tolimir, are you saying to me -- is it your
19 submission that you've not used the Latin script over the last 40 years,
20 that you've not looked at documents and materials in that script? Is that
21 your position?
22 THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] That is my position, because
23 we, in Yugoslavia, in the former Yugoslavia, were only duty-bound to use
24 the Latin script and Cyrillic script in writing our project reports in
25 school. Now, since I did not need to use it otherwise, I didn't. We only
1 had to do that when we learned it in primary school, to see whether we
2 could use -- knew how to use that script. I never used it later because I
3 didn't need to.
4 Now, I don't know why you wish to force me to read in a language
5 which is less understandable to me and accept a script which is less
6 understandable to me, and which I use with less facility and that I would
7 have to learn it again. I'd like to hear you give me an answer to that.
8 I've said that I was taught that in primary school. Now, there
9 are a lot of people who learned foreign languages when they were young and
10 can no longer use them or write in those languages, especially if they had
11 a passive knowledge of those languages.
12 Thank you.
13 JUDGE PROST: Thank you, Mr. Tolimir.
14 I'm taking your submission that you do, in fact, read and
15 understand the Latin script; however, it is more difficult for you to read
16 in the Latin script than in the Cyrillic script. That's the way I'm going
17 to summarise what you've said on that particular point. But you do read
18 and understand it.
19 Mr. McCloskey, does the Prosecution have any comments to make on
20 this particular issue?
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Not at this time, Madam President.
22 JUDGE PROST: Thank you.
23 Mr. Tolimir, there have been submissions filed today -- or not
24 today, but yesterday, by the Registrar in this case with respect to
25 various issues, including the use of the Cyrillic text, and I've had
1 regard to those. And there have as well been previous filings where the
2 Registry has highlighted the difficulties that are faced in transcribing
3 these documents into the Cyrillic text, and I have had regard to those
4 submissions from the Registry.
5 And I emphasise to you, Mr. Tolimir, that this whole issue is, in
6 my view, a part of the wider issue of your choice for self-representation
7 and whether or not that, in light of what you've related to me as to your
8 preference in terms of language, is going to be problematic. But on this
9 question, Mr. Tolimir, of translation, I need you to understand, because I
10 take the substance of your submission to be that you wish to have
11 documents presented to you in the language of your state, in the language
12 of your nation, using the alphabet that is the official language of your
13 country, and not that it is not possible for you to read or to understand
14 this material written in the Latin script.
15 The right, as you've identified, the right to have the material
16 before you in a language that you understand, especially when you're
17 self-represented, is obviously extremely fundamental because it underlies
18 all the other rights that you have to exercise here and have to be
19 fulfilled here in your trial process, but this is a substantive right, Mr.
20 Tolimir. It's not a question of preference in terms of format or in terms
21 of script. It is certainly nothing related to trying to raise or in any
22 way diminish the status, the importance, of any particular language.
23 And in fact, as you noted, the Statute and the Rules don't speak
24 of any particular statute -- any particular language when it comes to the
25 accused. It simply speaks of ensuring that you're receiving material in a
1 language that you can understand. The purpose is to make sure that all of
2 the material, all the relevant material, can be provided to you in a way
3 that you can understand it.
4 And the difficulty that I face, Mr. Tolimir, is that, as the
5 Registry has submitted, there are limits. There are limitations on the
6 resources available for the translation of material. And in the case of a
7 self-represented accused, the amount of material that has to be translated
8 is very extensive, much more extensive than it is in the context of
9 represented accused. And for me, the thing I'm most concerned about,
10 Mr. Tolimir, is making sure that you are receiving all the relevant
11 material in a language that you understand, that you are capable of
12 reading, even if it is more difficult, as you've indicated, for you.
13 And given your acknowledgment, with the qualifications you've
14 indicated, but given your acknowledgment that you can read the Latin
15 script, I'm not prepared to allocate some of those very limited resources
16 of translation towards the transference of the script of the document. I
17 much prefer to ensure that you are receiving all the material and those
18 resources are applied to ensure that you receive all this material in a
19 language that you can understand, and you can take the time necessary in
20 order to read the materials and understand them.
21 But it is simply in the balancing exercise, Mr. Tolimir, that is
22 the important thing for me, is to ensure you have this material available
23 to you in a language you can understand, and we can accommodate for any
24 difficulties through whatever assistance you're provided with and in
25 addition by granting you more time, if necessary, to look through the
2 I emphasise, Mr. Tolimir, this is purely about the substance of
3 the right. It has nothing to do or no suggestion that there is any
4 ranking or qualification of one language in relation to another, because
5 that is not the intention behind the nature of the rule or the nature of
6 the procedure here.
7 Therefore, I am denying your request to have the material
8 translated into the Cyrillic script. I will continue, however, to ensure,
9 and I would ask you to bring to my attention, if there are any instances
10 where you're not provided with this material in the Serbian language, and
11 that is obviously critically important. That is the language you
12 understand. But the script will continue to be the script as has been the
13 case to date.
14 Having said that, Mr. Tolimir, I appreciate that you're not going
15 to like that decision. You probably don't agree with it. But I am asking
16 you to accept it in order that we can proceed with the proper
17 presentation, preparation of your defence, that you can proceed with that.
18 It's critically important that you have this material, that you're able to
19 discuss it and consider it; and to that end, I'm going to ask the
20 Registrar to make arrangements to re-serve material that you have rejected
21 to date, in particular the supporting documentation that was served by the
22 Prosecution in July. I'm going to encourage you. I understand the points
23 you've raised. I have taken them into consideration. I have thought
24 about them. But I'm going to ask you to please accept the material in the
25 form in which it is served upon you.
1 Should you fail to do so, Mr. Tolimir, then that is going to be a
2 major factor that the Trial Chamber is going to have to consider in terms
3 of your indication that you wish to represent yourself, because it can
4 obviously have a dramatic impact on the fairness and efficacy of this
5 trial. So I'm going to close that particular issue there, Mr. Tolimir,
6 and hope that you will be prepared to accept the material in that form at
7 this time.
8 I'm going to move, then, to the question of disclosure. I'm going
9 to turn at this point to Mr. McCloskey.
10 THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Excuse me, but I wish to say
11 that you misunderstood me. You misunderstood me. I said that I don't
12 understand the Latin script and that I would have to learn it all over
13 again because I don't know it. I had to learn the Cyrillic script all
14 over again after I had a brain haemorrhage and after I had a stroke. I
15 had to learn it all over again. So I, once again, would like to ask you
16 to submit my documents in Serbian.
17 You can take whatever decision you like; but please believe me, at
18 age 60, I have no intention of learning a new script again because the
19 Tribunal does not accept the Cyrillic script, which is accepted as a
20 script of equal equality with all the others. So I cannot accept that you
21 impose on me that I learn a language again, a language that I would have
22 to learn from scratch. When I had the stroke in 1983, I no longer knew
23 the Latin script, and I don't wish to have to learn it again.
24 You can bring in your own decisions. I'll accept any language you
25 like. You can serve the documents on me in Chinese, but I do not wish to
1 be tried in a language which I don't understand. I wish to be tried in a
2 language that I know and I understand, and I would like to prevail on my
3 state that the Serbian language and the Cyrillic script be accepted as are
4 all the other languages and scripts of all the other former Yugoslav
5 Republics. If I'm a member of a national minority or nationality from the
6 former Yugoslavia, or rather, if someone from that ethnicity can use the
7 language here, then I'm sure that the Serbian language and the Cyrillic
8 script can be allowed in my case.
9 So I'm not going to accept the documents in a script that I don't
10 understand and cannot use.
11 Thank you.
12 JUDGE PROST: Mr. McCloskey, on this issue.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's a related issue, and that is, as Madam
14 President probably knows, we provide our discovery now in electronic
15 format, due to the volume of it. The electronic disclosure system is a
16 very important part of that so Defence counsel and defendant will have
17 full access to the material. So if we could get the view of Mr. Tolimir
18 on his use of a computer, that will also be -- give us a practical idea of
19 what we'll all be looking at in getting ready for this case.
20 JUDGE PROST: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey. I will return to that
22 First, Mr. Tolimir, I'm getting, unfortunately, I'm getting
23 differing positions from you on your understanding of the Latin text,
24 because you certainly did indicate at one point that you are able to read
25 it, but with difficulty. And now you're indicating to me that you are not
1 able to read it. What I'm going to suggest to you, Mr. Tolimir, I would
2 ask you to consider this, is that the material will be provided to you, as
3 it has been served upon you.
4 I would ask you to accept it, have regard to it; and in
5 consultation with those that you are discussing matters with, see if you
6 are in a position, in fact, to review the material in this current script
7 that it's provided to you in. And if you wish to make written submissions
8 to me in which you set out what you just indicated, and if you wish to
9 make further written submissions to me focused on the issue of your
10 ability to understand, to read and understand the script, I'm happy to
11 receive those submissions.
12 But I would ask you, because what you've stated to me here today
13 is somewhat contradictory, in terms of your ability, so I would ask you to
14 take a look at the material, and if you wish to make written submissions
15 to me on this issue, I will receive those written submissions.
16 But I would ask that you, in the meantime -- and, again, I
17 emphasise, Mr. Tolimir, I understand the points you've raised, and the
18 intention here has nothing to do with the status of the language or the
19 script, whatsoever. It is simply a question of the resource constraints
20 facing the Tribunal and the Registry and our need to ensure that you're
21 getting this material in an understandable form.
22 So for the moment, I would ask that we will leave it with that
23 approach; and if you wish to come back to me with written submissions
24 substantiating your position, then I will receive those submissions.
25 I would like, however, to then turn to the issue raised by
1 Mr. McCloskey, which you touched upon. Putting a side the context of this
2 translation issue, there is extensive use in this Tribunal of electronic
3 disclosure, Mr. Tolimir, as I'm sure you're aware, which means that to
4 access the materials, you would need to use a computer facility, which, of
5 course, would be provided to you.
6 Are you able to use a computer in order to view material,
7 Mr. Tolimir?
8 THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] I don't know how to use the
9 computer, just as I don't know the Latin script, and I don't want to have
10 to learn to use either. I would like the documents to be provided to me
11 in Serbian and in Cyrillic, and I wish to stress that loud and clear at
12 this meeting. I don't want to receive anything that is not in Serbian and
13 in the Cyrillic script, as is the language of my country.
14 Now, all the difficulties with respect to transfer from Cyrillic
15 to Latin is equal to zero. It just needs a little bit of effort, and
16 anybody that says to the contrary is wrong. If you have everything on
17 e-court, you can translate it both into the Cyrillic and into the Latin
18 script by just pressing a button. I can bring in an expert here who will
19 prove that to you and show you, if other people tell you differently, or
20 you can engage one of your experts from The Hague Tribunal, from the
22 I entreat you not to force me and not to make your decisions on
23 the basis of something that you feel that I might know, as respects the
24 Latin script. I don't know the Latin script, and I don't wish to learn
25 it. And why should I learn it when we have a perfectly viable Cyrillic
1 script? Why? And everything else is on electronic disclosure, anyway,
2 and can be very easily transferred.
3 Now, the fact that even a new text that you wish to submit to me,
4 you don't wish to have written in Cyrillic, means that it's not a question
5 of the fact that that is not possible, but that there is not the goodwill
6 to do that, to write here in the Serb language and the Cyrillic script.
7 Otherwise, I can't explain it in any other way.
8 Why don't you respond to my letters or requests or anything else
9 in Cyrillic? The translator won't even write it down in handwriting in
10 the Cyrillic script. Before the Status Conference was held, they came to
11 tell me something in English without a translator. I think that is quite
13 JUDGE PROST: Mr. Tolimir, on your last point, yes, I understand,
14 and certainly --
15 THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 JUDGE PROST: -- all efforts will be made to ensure that you
17 receive the translation, interpretation into Serbian.
18 On the points that you have raised, I will ask you, if you wish me
19 to consider the matter again, if you can concisely set out to me the
20 points you have just raised in writing so that I have your exact position,
21 because, as I say, I'm a bit perplexed by the differing position. So if
22 you can set it out to me in writing, concisely, I will give the Registry
23 an opportunity to file any submission they wish to make in response, and
24 the Prosecution, if they wish to do so, and then we can come back to the
25 matter at a later stage.
1 But for the moment, my decision is that the materials will
2 continue to be served in the Serbian language, obviously with translation
3 and interpretation into Serbian, but that the script issue will not be
4 addressed. There will not be translations into the Cyrillic script.
5 But I'm inviting you, if you wish to make concise submissions to
6 me on the point in writing, then I will consider those submissions and the
7 submissions in response to them from the Registry and the Prosecution.
8 But I simply wish to clarify -- if we could leave that issue,
9 Mr. Tolimir, I simply wish to clarify with you on the question of a
10 computer. I take it you're saying that you're not able to view materials
11 disclosed to you in electronic form. Is that the position that you're
13 THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Yes, that is my position.
14 Now, if you're going to make a decision now that I have to read
15 the Latin script and that new scripts being compiled, and even responses
16 from the Registry, well, I can't understand this resistance of yours to
17 the Cyrillic script, because you don't want a single Cyrillic letter to
18 enter into any of the Tribunal's computers.
19 So I should like to say publicly, in public, that I would like all
20 the documents to be sent me and any material sent me in a language that I
21 read and understand, and I don't want to use a computer. For those
22 reasons, I don't want to learn to use it. And you insist on providing me
23 with electronic material in Latin; whereas, your computers are versatile
24 in other languages.
25 Thank you.
1 JUDGE PROST: Mr. Tolimir, we'll leave that issue for the moment.
2 Mr. McCloskey, on the issue of electronic disclosure, do you wish
3 to make any submissions at this time, or would you prefer to make written
4 submissions on the situation in terms of disclosure?
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think I can say just something very briefly now,
7 The amount of disclosure is such that it's really impossible now
8 to provide this material in a hard-copy format and with the resources of
9 this Tribunal and of the OTP. It would be something that would envelope
10 the accused as well. He just would not have the ability to search, to
12 And in listening to the General, in my view, it's actually a very
13 simple situation. If he cannot or will not use Latin script and he cannot
14 or will not use a computer, he must be appointed counsel. In this day and
15 age, there's no other option. I think it's as simple as that.
16 And I don't want to spring that on all of us right now, but I
17 don't see how we can go on like this much further. But in this day and
18 age, there's really no other choice. Counsel can communicate to him in a
19 way that he can clearly understand, or he cannot choose to communicate
20 with his counsel. But it would be a farce to go on with a trial where he
21 is not reading and he is not using a computer.
22 JUDGE PROST: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.
23 I think what we're going to do is we will come to issues in due
24 course, I'm certain, over the course. This is only the first Status
25 Conference, so I'm not going to revisit that particular issue. But we do
1 have the statements that have now been made by Mr. Tolimir as to his
2 position on the use of the Latin script, on the issue of computers, for
3 the moment, and I am not going to delve further into that today. But I
4 certainly note your comments in this respect.
5 Mr. Tolimir, we're not going to address today the issue of
6 electronic disclosure. I have noted what you have said on that particular
7 point. We will return to it, no doubt, in due course.
8 What I'd like to do at this stage is to return to -- to move
9 forward to the issue of disclosure, and if we can put aside for the
10 moment, Mr. McCloskey, the difficulties in terms of translation and
11 script. Can you tell me - we discussed this briefly at the appearance -
12 but can you tell me of the status of your work on Rule 66 (A)(2) material
13 and the disclosure of those materials?
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: We have the ability to provide that material very
15 soon. But as I think you're already alerted to, in our attempt to provide
16 the audio of the Krstic and the Blagojevic material, and in our attempt to
17 provide the CD of all the exhibits of the current Popovic case, and even
18 the RS reports that the General has asked for, he has refused to take
19 them. So we do have the ability, electronically, to provide this material
20 rather quickly; however, it's a question of the usefulness of doing that,
21 because where do we take it? Does he have an EDS account?
22 These are issues that are normally sorted out by lawyers, and the
23 Registry is in a rather difficult position. They're not quite sure how to
24 deal with it, but we are ready to provide the material electronically, as
25 we would with anyone else. We're not ready to make exceptions for this
2 JUDGE PROST: Can I ask you, Mr. McCloskey, putting format aside,
3 are you satisfied that you're in a position at this stage to disclose all
4 of the material necessary under Rule 66(2). Putting the question of
5 format aside, has it compiled and is it ready, or is there further work
6 you need to do on that?
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's not sealed and deliverable, but that can be
8 done, in consultation with Mr. Stewart, relatively soon.
9 JUDGE PROST: Thank you for that.
10 Mr. Tolimir, what we are discussing is Rule 66 (A)(2), which is
11 that the obligation is on the Prosecution to disclose to you copies of the
12 statements of all witnesses that the Prosecutor intends to call to testify
13 at trial and copies of all written statements taken in accordance with
14 Rule 92 bis.
15 The Prosecutor at this stage must disclose what he intends to
16 adduce, but there is also a continuing obligation which would go on during
17 the course of the proceedings to disclose copies of statements of
18 additional witnesses that the Prosecution may decide to call.
19 Do you have any submissions to make on the question of the
20 disclosure of the written statements pursuant to this Rule, Mr. Tolimir,
21 other than what you've already submitted in terms of -- we've already
22 discussed the issue of script, et cetera. Anything further, though, on
23 that particular question of the disclosure of witness statements?
24 THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.
25 Madam President, what I want to say is this: I would like, before
1 electronic disclosure takes place, that the computers via which disclosure
2 is done be equipped with a programme which writes the Cyrillic language
3 and alphabet, because quite obviously computers can work in all languages,
4 and so I assume by the same token they can work in the Cyrillic language,
5 too. So we'll see whether this is a matter of principle, whereby you send
6 me documents exclusively in the Latin script, or is it a failure to
7 recognise the Cyrillic script, because a computer has all kinds of
8 language programmes that it can learn.
9 It doesn't matter whether it's Mr. McCloskey or me. It's the
10 computer programme that we're talking about. And if we use diskettes,
11 then they can all be printed in Cyrillic. And if you haven't got an
12 expert who can incorporate the Cyrillic script into the computers, then
13 allow me to do that with my expert.
14 Thank you. That is what I would like to propose, that my expert
15 incorporates a Cyrillic language programme into your computers.
16 JUDGE PROST: Fine. As indicated, Mr. Tolimir, we'll leave that
17 particular issue at the moment.
18 The one other point I want to raise with you on this question of
19 disclosure is audiotapes. That obviously doesn't involve any question of
21 I ordered that the audiotapes of your first two hearings,
22 appearances before me be disclosed to you, along with the equipment to
23 listen to them, and I heard mention by Mr. McCloskey that they have also
24 offered material in audio form. I understand that you have so far refused
25 to accept the audiotapes.
1 Can I ask you to please accept the audiotapes, material which does
2 not involve any question of script? Can you explain to me why you
3 wouldn't do that, Mr. Tolimir?
4 THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Well, thank you.
5 What I would like to explain is that I don't want to accept any
6 tapes which have transcripts in the Latin script and not in the Cyrillic
7 script, because I can't understand them and can't use them. So please
8 understand me.
9 JUDGE PROST: Mr. Tolimir, I'm not talking about -- I'm not
10 talking about transcripts. I'm talking about providing you with
11 audiotapes, as I ordered in my previous order, of the hearings where you
12 can listen on audio equipment, listen through audio equipment, and make
13 notes as you wish regarding the previous appearances or regarding other
14 material that the Prosecution may disclose. This has nothing to do with
15 the issue of script.
16 Can you tell me why you will not accept audiotape material?
17 THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you. I refuse because
18 you do not wish to elaborate it, the transcript of it, in the language
19 that I speak.
20 On my first two appearances, and this was recorded, what I asked
21 you was to provide me with a transcript of what I said during the first
22 and second appearance, and that was the current situation. They weren't
23 old tapes whereby it would be difficult to provide them in Cyrillic. It's
24 just a matter of pressing the computer button so that the transcript can
25 be printed out in Cyrillic, so that I don't have to listen for 12 hours
1 something I can read through in two hours. But nobody wishes to respect
2 that request of mine and comply.
3 JUDGE PROST: Thank you, Mr. Tolimir. I think I have your
4 position, then, on that particular issue.
5 On the question of disclosure, then, under Rule 66 (A)(2), I'm not
6 going to set any deadlines at this time, Mr. McCloskey. I think we will
7 take up the issue once again, as we have continuing questions regarding
8 receipt of the material, but I would urge you to please continue to
9 compiling it to the point where it is ready for delivery.
10 And did you have another comment on that issue, Mr. McCloskey?
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.
12 It would take me or Ms. Stewart a matter of hours, merely, because
13 it's all in place. It's all there already. We just need the EDS, the
14 account, the logistical ability to do it.
15 JUDGE PROST: I understand that, and I think perhaps some of these
16 issues might be easier to address, though, once the issue between the
17 Registry and Mr. Tolimir is resolved, regarding any assistance that he's
18 going to be provided, associates or things of that nature. So I think,
19 perhaps, it's best, for today, I will suspend setting any deadline until
20 we can do it in a meaningful way, because otherwise it may be a wasted
21 process. So we'll leave that particular issue.
22 On the disclosure point, the only other point I wanted to raise,
23 although I'm certain I don't have to, Mr. McCloskey, but I'm sure you're
24 well aware, of course, of the need to disclose any Rule 68 material.
25 Again, we face the same logistical issues, but I'm sure you're taking
1 steps to ensure that you're searching for any Rule 68 material.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Madam President. As you know, that's a daily
3 part of our ongoing trial, and we're always looking at. And, again, that
4 just underscores the importance of a computer and the other side knowing
5 how to use one, because that's how we are able to get it to the Defence in
6 the best manner.
7 JUDGE PROST: Thank you.
8 Mr. Tolimir, what I've just raised with the Prosecution is Rule
9 68, which you may have reviewed, places an obligation on the Prosecutor.
10 It's a continuing obligation to always disclose to the Defence any
11 material which in the actual knowledge of the Prosecutor that may suggest
12 the innocence or mitigate the guilt of the accused or affect the
13 credibility of the Prosecution evidence. And so I have simply discussed
14 with him the need for that obligation to be met and for the Prosecution to
15 ensure that they're searching for any such material and disclosing it to
16 you. So I don't believe there is any need to explore that particular
17 point any further.
18 I don't have any other issues on disclosure, unless anyone else
19 wishes to raise a particular disclosure issue that we have not already
21 I don't hear anything from either side, so I think we will move
22 on, then.
23 Mr. Tolimir, you have raised -- I'm sorry.
24 THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] I thought that you would
25 treat all questions put forward by me in my submission on a footing of
1 equality, as being placed on the agenda of the Status Conference.
2 However, I don't see that that is the case.
3 JUDGE PROST: I'm moving to the next issue, Mr. Tolimir, that you
4 raised in your submission, if that -- unless did you have something else
5 you wanted to raise with me on disclosure, because I wanted to move to the
6 question of your allegations regarding illegal arrest. We have dealt with
7 the two other issues, the financing issue, the script issue. And now I
8 would like to move to the other issue you raised, the very important issue
9 of your allegations concerning your illegal arrest.
10 Do you understand that, Mr. Tolimir? Unless you had something
11 further to raise on disclosure.
12 THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] I accept your proposal that
13 we move on to the question of my kidnapping and illegal arrest.
14 Thank you.
15 JUDGE PROST: Thank you.
16 And here, Mr. Tolimir, again we come to an issue that relates
17 again back to your self-representation.
18 You have raised, both in your appearances and now in written
19 submissions, and reiterated very serious complaints about the
20 circumstances under which you were arrested and transferred to this
21 Tribunal. As a first point in this regard, you requested that statements
22 be taken by the parties who had been involved in the arrest and transfer.
23 And I believe at the last appearance, Mr. McCloskey, we discussed
24 this issue. You made mention on the record that work was being undertaken
25 in that regard with respect to taking statements from individuals involved
1 in the arrest and transfer. I'm wondering if you can update me on that
2 particular issue.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. What we were awaiting was the RS material on
4 the arrest, and we have a report on that. That was one of the items that
5 we tried to give the General on 19 July, and it's actually in the Cyrillic
7 JUDGE PROST: Mr. Tolimir, I'm going to suggest that since the
8 report from the Republika Srpska has been provided and provided in the
9 Cyrillic script, I'm going to ask the Registrar to deliver that to you,
10 and I presume you're going to accept that document. It is in accord with
11 your wishes for it to be in your language and in your script, and I think
12 it's very important, obviously, that you receive that material.
13 So I will instruct the Registrar to -- oh, we can probably provide
14 that material right now to you, because I think it's clearly important, on
15 this issue, that you receive the material that's been prepared.
16 Mr. McCloskey, I'm happy if it's -- oh, is it being delivered now?
17 Is that a copy that can be provided to him right now?
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. Ms. Stewart brought that, and that can be
19 provided. It's from the RS. We don't have anything from Serbia, as yet,
20 nor do I know if we will get anything from Serbia, but we will continue to
21 work on that.
22 JUDGE PROST: So, Mr. McCloskey, I can take it, then, that you are
23 still anticipating further materials in respect of --
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: We have a -- we'll have a request out. I don't
25 recall exactly what requests we have made to Serbia. I'm not, frankly,
1 confident that Serbia will respond, but they may. And I will update -- I
2 will update the Chamber on anything we get from Serbia. We're hearing
3 from the RS authorities, but Serbia. I think we have a little more to
4 hear from them on it.
5 JUDGE PROST: Mr. McCloskey, I understand that amongst the
6 documents that were just provided to Mr. Tolimir, there was the report
7 which is in the Cyrillic text, and it appears there was something else
8 attached which is not in the Cyrillic text, which has now just been
9 returned to me.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. That's Don King, the OTP investigator that
11 was involved in the transfer of the General. We naturally -- we do not
12 use the Cyrillic text.
13 JUDGE PROST: Okay. I'm going to -- for the moment,
14 Mr. McCloskey. I don't want this to drag on, however, because I think
15 this is a very critical issue that needs to be resolved early on.
16 Obviously, it relates to the arrest and transfer. Mr. Tolimir has raised
17 these serious questions. So I would like you to try and, as best you can,
18 get an idea from the Serbian authorities when we might expect something or
19 if we might expect something, so that I can, at a future point, set a
20 deadline for any submissions to be made on this issue.
21 I had hoped to do so today, but I think it's not fair to do so in
22 the absence of at least seeing if we can have a complete -- as complete a
23 record as possible.
24 So if you could do that, Mr. McCloskey.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, absolutely, Madam President.
1 JUDGE PROST: Thank you.
2 Mr. Tolimir, as I've indicated to you previously, the Trial
3 Chamber takes very seriously the issues you have raised regarding your
4 arrest and transfer to this Tribunal. We are, however, not able to
5 properly consider the matter and give it the attention it deserves in the
6 absence of proper filings from the parties.
7 You are going to need, eventually, to bring a motion which
8 specifies the allegations that you are making as to the circumstances of
9 your arrest, which points to any supporting evidence in that regard and
10 which outlines to the Trial Chamber specifically what remedy you are
11 seeking from the Chamber in relation to that, the allegations that you
13 The Prosecution will then be given an opportunity to respond to
14 that motion, and that is, in our view, a very important and urgent matter.
15 Now, I had intended today, Mr. Tolimir, to set a deadline for you
16 to file that motion. However, in light of the comments from the
17 Prosecution that there is still a possibility of receiving further
18 material, then I am not going to set the deadline today. But I would
19 encourage you, Mr. Tolimir, to begin work on that, because I will
20 certainly, as soon as any further material is provided or we have
21 determined no further material will be forthcoming, be setting a deadline
22 for you to bring that motion before the Chamber.
23 So we'll leave that matter for the moment.
24 Again, Mr. Tolimir, you have returned to the Prosecution material
25 on this issue that you have raised repeatedly with the Tribunal, and
1 obviously that is a matter of concern. But I will leave it there, unless
2 you have any further comments to make on this question. As I say,
3 Mr. Tolimir, I appreciate that you've previously made oral submissions on
4 the point, but the Trial Chamber will need a motion, a written motion, on
5 this particular question in due course, though I'm not setting a deadline
7 Do you have any comments you wish to make at this time,
8 Mr. Tolimir, on that question?
9 THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 Yes, I do have comments to make.
11 First of all, it was stated here that I did not want to accept the
12 document of Republika Srpska about my arrest which was written in Cyrillic
13 onto typed-out pages. I could not --
14 JUDGE PROST: I'm sorry, Mr. Tolimir. There must have been a
15 mistake in translation. I'm not saying you didn't accept the report from
16 the Republika Srpska in Cyrillic. There was an additional document which
17 is not in Cyrillic, which is a report that the Prosecution was providing
18 to you, and that is the document which you have returned. So I didn't
19 want to have any misunderstandings here. It is clear you did accept the
20 report from the Republika Srpska, but not the additional document, and
21 that's all I was referring to.
22 Now, do you have any additional comments on this issue?
23 THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] I wanted to say that I
24 refuse to accept that in the detention unit because the condition laid was
25 that with this document, I should sign that I accept the other documents,
1 the rest of the documents, and that is something that I refuse to do.
2 That's as far as that document is concerned.
3 And now I want to say something else, if you've moved on to
4 another area, about my kidnapping and arrest. With your permission, I
5 think that's the next subject to the agenda.
6 Madam President, before this Trial Chamber, both times I appeared,
7 I requested that you investigate how I was kidnapped in Serbia,
8 transferred to Republika Srpska and the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
9 which comes under the control of NATO, and illegally transported to the
10 International Court in The Hague without any document on extradition, and
11 I've repeated that several times.
12 I also requested that you took -- you take public statements,
13 statements given publicly to the media about my arrest in Serbia by the
14 competent authorities in Serbia. I didn't ask you to take statements as
15 regards the circumstances of my arrest by those who arrested me, because
16 if I knew who they were, then I would say, "Go and get so-and-so." What I
17 asked was public statements from the president of the country, the prime
18 minister, the foreign minister, the justice minister, and other relevant
19 organs, which represent the state of Serbia both on the national level and
20 international level and who gave statements about my arrest.
21 And in those statements about my arrest, you can clearly see that
22 I was not arrested, as they said, on the territory of Serbia; whereas, I
23 was, in fact, arrested in Belgrade, in my flat.
24 Now, does that mean that somebody kidnapped me in Belgrade and
25 then transferred me to Republika Srpska because all those statements by
1 all those leaders from Serbia say that I was kidnapped, because they all
2 claim that they did not arrest me. If I was not arrested by the legal
3 authorities, then that means that I was arrested by the kidnappers and
4 transferred me to the authority of NATO.
5 And I would like this Court to establish why I had to be kidnapped
6 and transferred to this Tribunal and to NATO from Belgrade, because this
7 is something that all state authorities of Serbia confirm. President
8 Tadic is one. All organs in Serbia confirm they did not arrest me.
9 That's what the president of the country says. The prime minister says
10 the same thing, and so does the foreign minister, and the Minister of the
11 Interior, and the Minister of Justice, who is best placed to know, and the
12 minister of the police, and president of the Council for Cooperation with
13 The Hague of the Tribunal.
14 And this is something that Carla Del Ponte stated, too, when she
15 visited the country from the 4th to the 8th of June, when she was in
16 Belgrade. And on the basis of that, this Court can conclude that I was,
17 in fact, kidnapped then.
18 Now, I'm asking myself, I'm wondering why does the Tribunal accept
19 somebody who was kidnapped, and why does it not investigate on what
20 grounds I was kidnapped, and it's been three or four months. We have a
21 statement from Republika Srpska which falsely says it arrested me. That's
22 not true. I wasn't arrested in the Republika Srpska.
23 So I ask you not to bring in statements here that are false. This
24 will come in handy -- this statement will come in handy to me because I'm
25 going to prove that it's not true. But I don't want false statements of
1 this kind to be how this investigation ends.
2 I was kidnapped between the 30th and the 31st of May, 2007, and
3 that was confirmed with the public statements from the 1st to the 10th of
4 June, 2007, by all the people that I mentioned a moment ago, and the Chief
5 Prosecutor from The Hague Tribunal, Madam Del Ponte. Everybody said they
6 didn't arrest me, that I wasn't arrested.
7 JUDGE PROST: Mr. Tolimir, two things. One is you're going to
8 need to slow down, because the interpreters are having difficulty
9 interpreting you. And also, perhaps I wasn't clear, but I do well
10 appreciate the submissions that you have been making to me at the first
11 two appearances on this issue. As I've indicated, it is a serious issue
12 that the Trial Chamber is interested in pursuing.
13 I do take your comments on the question of Serbian authorities;
14 and as the Prosecutor has indicated, he has requested and is awaiting any
15 reports from Serbia. But we're not going to be able to deal with this
16 issue and all of your allegations, as well as any positions you wish to
17 advance, in an oral hearing, Mr. Tolimir. That's my point.
18 You have raised this issue. We certainly want to hear you out on
19 this issue, and there may be supplemental information that can be provided
20 orally. But, really, what's going to have to happen is there's going to
21 have to be a motion, a written motion in which you detail these particular
22 allegations to us.
23 Now, I'm happy to hear briefly the rest of the comments you want
24 to make today, but we are awaiting material from Serbia. We are -- the
25 matter is being looked into. The Trial Chamber remains ready to examine
1 the issue, but, ultimately, you're going to have to present a written
2 motion on this. Okay?
3 Is there further remarks you wish to make at this time, because
4 we're not going to be able, in the time allotted to us, to go into the
5 substance of this issue without the benefit of written submissions from
6 all the parties.
7 THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 I apologise to the interpreters for the speed at which I was
10 I've already said this in written form and orally, but I'm
11 interested in knowing why you're asking for statements and looking for
12 statements when I asked that public statements be looked into, given to
13 the media, claiming what was claimed by those who are in power and who
14 state that I was not arrested in Serbia. The prime minister and president
15 of a country said that I wasn't arrested, then that means I was kidnapped.
16 And the people who were in my flat, who were taken into custody to the
17 police and interrogated and interviewed by the police proved I was
18 arrested in Belgrade.
19 So does this Tribunal wish to try a person who was kidnapped or
21 Now, who kidnapped me? What was the role of the Tribunal? What
22 was the role of the OTP? What was the role of NATO? Because there are
23 statements which state that before my arrest, everybody actually knew I
24 was going to be arrested, and that this was in cohorts with The Hague
25 Tribunal, that this is was something they knew.
1 So why is the public being misled, and why am I denied my right of
2 stating exactly where I was arrested? Why was I taken to Bratunac,
3 arrested there, and filmed in Bratunac?
4 Those are all questions which are essential for my future status
5 to be determined, so I don't wish to discuss any of these issues until the
6 question of my arrest has been resolved.
7 I very much doubt that this Tribunal would like to try a person
8 who was kidnapped. Perhaps I'm wrong on that score, but I do believe
9 that, because this Court does not have a decision on extradition. So why
10 did he accept to take me in? Who arranged all this?
11 JUDGE PROST: Mr. Tolimir, I'm going to stop you there.
12 I understand very well and you've been very clear about what your
13 position is, and you've given an indication of the kind of remedies you're
15 I would suggest we're going to leave the topic for today, because
16 one of the things you've raised, the question of public statements, these
17 are the types of material, Mr. Tolimir, in the normal course that someone
18 bringing a motion would put forward with their motion, copies of any
19 public statements, for example, that supported their positions. So what
20 I'm going to suggest is we still have to have resolved the issue of any
21 assistance you're going to receive, and this might be material that those
22 assisting you could help you put together.
23 So there's no use us pursuing it any further today. I understand
24 very clearly what your position is, and I hope you understand as well very
25 clearly my position, which is: The Trial Chamber is happy to review this
1 issue, and we are receptive to any material you want us to have regard
2 to. But this is one of the issues, again, related to self-representation.
3 You are going to, because you've taken on that responsibility, have to put
4 the material forward in a motion form, with the supporting documentation
5 that you want us to review.
6 The Prosecutor has undertaken the obligation of gathering material
7 that relates to this issue, but the onus is upon you, as bringing the
8 motion, to put forward that material.
9 So there is little use in us continuing to discuss it today. As I
10 said, I'm not setting a deadline today for the filing of any motion. This
11 is still very much a live issue. We will return to it, but I'm asking you
12 to prepare yourself for the fact that you will need to put down, in
13 writing, with attachments, your submissions on this particular point.
14 So I think we will, unless the Prosecution had any further
15 comments on this particular point, which I don't see Mr. McCloskey
16 standing, I'm going to move, Mr. Tolimir - I hope you've understood what I
17 said - to the issue of preliminary motions under Rule 72.
18 I had previously suspended the 30-day time period that runs for
19 disclosure of material under Rule 66 (A)(1), which material was disclosed
20 to you by the Prosecution. I had suspended at the previous hearing any
21 deadline for the filing of preliminary objections because you had no
23 In light of the fact that you've elected to self-represent,
24 Mr. Tolimir, and the fact that the Rules have now become quite clear on
25 the importance of abiding by these deadlines and not leaving these matters
1 hanging, I am going to set a deadline for you to provide submissions under
2 the Rule. And these would be preliminary objections to the indictment,
3 preliminary motions, including motions challenging jurisdiction, alleging
4 defects in the form of the indictment, seeking the severance of counts
5 enjoined in one indictment, raising objections based on the refusal --
6 well, that one at the moment is not relevant.
7 So I am going to have to set a deadline today, Mr. Tolimir, for
8 those particular motions. Do you have any submissions to make to me
9 regarding the preliminary objections to the indictment? And I would ask
10 you to be concise on those. Any objections you raise are going to have to
11 be in a written form, in the form of a written motion. But do you have
12 any submissions on the deadline, Mr. Tolimir?
13 THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam President.
14 I understood that you interrupted me in my submissions, but please
15 allow me to continue.
16 I will accept your decision. I have written 30 submissions so
17 far. I can write two a day. It's no problem, but my submissions are not
18 responded to. I can obtain these public statements. One can just go to
19 the website of various news agencies that announce them. And that can be
20 done, but people don't want to do this deliberately.
21 I do not wish to abuse the fact that you have given me the floor,
22 but allow me, please, to say this: I don't want you to give me any
23 deadlines or orders until it is established how and why I was arrested and
24 transferred here. I'm here illegally.
25 You can issue all kinds of orders to me, but I will not act upon
1 these orders until this issue is resolved. I've been here for four months
2 and my status has not been resolved during that time. Someone
3 deliberately does not want my status to be resolved.
4 All these are public statements. They were broadcast publicly.
5 You can find them on websites. There's no need to go to Serbia to obtain
6 them. You can just do it electronically from here. But, obviously,
7 somebody does not want to clarify this situation and explain why I was
8 kidnapped. Please bear this in mind, and only then issue any orders that
9 you might want to issue. First order that this issue be resolved and then
10 issue any order to me. I can write up to ten submissions a day.
11 Please bear this in mind.
12 Thank you very much.
13 JUDGE PROST: Thank you, Mr. Tolimir. I understand your position,
14 and I certainly agree with you that it is an important issue and one that
15 needs to be resolved. As I indicated, we are awaiting further material,
16 and you certainly free, as part of your motion, to submit these additional
17 materials that you're making reference to.
18 But for the moment, Mr. Tolimir, regardless of that issue being
19 pending, I am going to put in place a deadline for the purposes of you
20 providing submissions, as I mentioned, under Rule 72 on preliminary
21 objections to the indictment.
22 In light of all the circumstances, I am going to set a longer
23 deadline than might be normally the case for those. I'm going to set a
24 deadline of 45 days, Mr. Tolimir, for that motion to be filed. Forty-five
25 days will run starting on Monday.
1 And I bring to your attention, Mr. Tolimir, because this will be
2 the first area where you're making formal submissions pursuant to the
3 Rules, that Rule 127 (A)(1) does give me the ability to extend that
4 period, but you will need to demonstrate good cause.
5 So I'm setting a 45-day time limit for the filing of the motions,
6 which time limit will run starting Monday, and those are the motions
7 pursuant to Rule 72 (A).
8 THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Could you please specify
9 precisely which motions?
10 JUDGE PROST: The Rule makes reference, Mr. Tolimir, to any
11 motions that you want to bring challenging jurisdiction; secondly,
12 alleging defects in the form of the indictment, or seeking the severance
13 of counts joined in one indictment. If you have regard to Rule 72 (A),
14 that's going to explain to you precisely the nature of the preliminary
15 motions that you may wish to bring within that time period.
16 Is that clear?
17 THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Yes. It is clear to me, but
18 I would like to ask you to tell me now, at this conference, what motions I
19 need to submit, because so far I have not received any material in the
20 language that I read and understand. I am not aware of that, so please
21 tell me now, what do you want me to write about in my motion?
22 Thank you.
23 JUDGE PROST: Well, Mr. Tolimir, I think that's at the root of the
24 problem we've been discussing this afternoon, and I'm not prepared to
25 reopen the issue of the materials and the language question.
1 I have outlined to you the only motion I'm setting a deadline for
2 today is the one that I've just described to you, Rule 72 (A), and that's
3 the only deadline that I've set so far. There are other matters pending,
4 obviously, including the issue of your arrest, but I'm not setting any
6 So the one you need to concentrate on in the next 45 days is Rule
7 72 (A). And, yes, I agree with you that we're in a bit of an impossible
8 situation if you continue to maintain the position that you will not
9 accept the material that's relevant to those motions, and you have my
10 ruling on that particular point. If you wish to make written submissions
11 to me, as I mentioned earlier, you can do so, but at the moment I have set
12 the deadline and I have ruled on the issue of translation. So that's as
13 far as I think we can go for today, and that is the submissions which I
14 wish to receive from you in 45 days.
15 And again, Mr. Tolimir, I think this also highlights issues that
16 we have here because of your request to be self-represented, but I will go
17 no further on that today.
18 The final area I wish to move to, unless you had any other issues
19 on that, Mr. McCloskey, is, Mr. Tolimir, is the question of your health.
20 I have certainly read your submissions, your filings on this
21 issue. I'm prepared to offer you to go into private session to discuss
22 anything; although, I take it from your filings that you do not wish to
23 discuss those matters in private session, and you're prepared to do so in
24 open session.
25 What I wanted to raise with you, Mr. Tolimir, is if there is any
1 issues you wish to bring to my attention regarding your health.
2 I am aware and have seen all of the filings that you have made
3 regarding treatment at the unit, each of which will be dealt with by the
4 appropriate authorities in due course. So I don't think it would be
5 productive for us to review your previous filings.
6 But what I'd like to do, because we have very limited time,
7 Mr. Tolimir, is I'd like to simply ask you if there's any particular
8 health matters that you wish to bring to my attention today, not the
9 matters that you've already dealt with by way of your submissions, because
10 those are all -- will all be considered, but anything particular you want
11 to bring to my attention today.
12 And as I say, our time is quite limited at this stage.
13 Mr. Tolimir, is there anything you wanted to bring to my attention
14 regarding your health today?
15 THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
16 I wanted to reply to the issue you posed at the end of the
17 discussion of my arrest. You said, "Does anybody wish to say anything,"
18 and I wish to say just two sentences.
19 The morality is the basis of any innocence, and the morality of
20 all of those people who put forward false facts and inform both this
21 Tribunal and the public must be penalized.
22 I, as a religious person, value morality above anything else in
23 any task, and I believe this is a precondition for anything -- for me to
24 participate in anything. This is why I ask that you resolve the issue of
25 my arrest. Once you resolve that issue, then you can decide on all other
2 Second, it is not proper to tell me that I should not have the
3 right to self-represent myself because I insist on the issue of my arrest
4 be resolved, and because I insist that I be served anything in Cyrillic
5 script. You just told me now that I can not even receive transcript from
6 this session in Cyrillic. What is this but discrimination? Who has
7 discriminated against me?
8 I cannot receive the transcript from this session today in
9 Serbian, in the Cyrillic script. Can you rule on that? If you can, then
10 I will abide by your ruling. But nobody dares to rule on this. Why not?
11 What is the problem there? Why is the Cyrillic script such a problem to
12 this Tribunal, when it can be easily resolved by a computer programme?
13 I ask you --
14 JUDGE PROST: Sorry, Mr. Tolimir. We're not able to return once
15 again to the issues that we have already covered at great length. I've
16 taken your --
17 THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
18 JUDGE PROST: I've taken your points in relation to that issue and
19 the arrest issue, and we need to bring the matters to a conclusion.
20 I simply want to deal, finally, with the issue of health,
21 Mr. Tolimir. Is there anything you wish to bring to my attention
22 regarding health or any other issue, not revisiting the issues that we've
23 already covered?
24 THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 I want to tell you that my health is excellent, and I thank you
1 for asking me that question, so that the people who are interested in my
2 health can hear about it.
3 But I would like to ask you that we discuss three of my motions
4 which regard the violation of my discretionary right, not to discuss my
5 health. We can't equate this, my discretionary rights and my health.
6 So if you would like to discuss the violation of my discretionary
7 rights, that's what I would like to do, and I have expounded upon them in
8 my three submissions ranging between five and six pages.
9 If we can't do that now, then we can do that at another conference
10 and I can write more submissions. But I don't think there's any point to
11 that, because for three months I have been writing submissions about the
12 violation of my discretionary rights, but nobody has reacted and no
13 measures are taken. So I don't see any reason for us -- or purpose in us
14 discussing anything else if the problems I raise are not acted upon.
15 Thank you.
16 JUDGE PROST: Yes. Mr. Tolimir, I'm well aware of the
17 submissions that you've made, and I certainly do agree with you that those
18 submissions need to be responded to and addressed.
19 As you probably know, though, there is the procedure in place
20 where the initial response and subsequent responses actually to those
21 kinds of submissions have to come through the commanding officer and then
22 through the Registrar, and, ultimately potentially, the President.
23 So they are -- you have made those submissions. The Registry is
24 aware of them, and I will certainly indicate to the Registry that there
25 should be responses to those. But the way the procedure works,
1 Mr. Tolimir, there's not much that I can do today in relation to those
2 motions. But I will make sure to bring to the attention of the Registry
3 your request today that those be responded to, the motions that you have
4 brought regarding conditions at the unit, and we will take the matter up
5 again, if there's been no progress, at the next Status Conference that we
7 So, certainly, I agree with you that those motions are pending and
8 need to be addressed, but the procedure is such that it falls to the
9 responsibility of the Registry at an initial phase. So, for today, we
10 will leave it at that. And unless there is any other particular issue you
11 wanted to bring to my attention, Mr. Tolimir, those were all of the issues
12 that I had intended to raise today, or if the Prosecution has any
13 additional issues.
14 I'll perhaps first hear from the Prosecution.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just one very brief issue.
16 Since the General is now representing himself, I would just like
17 to pass on, well, to you, Madam President and the General, that we are
18 open to discuss motions or anything else with him, as we would any party.
19 Also, the Prosecutor has invited General Tolimir to speak to her,
20 if he so chooses.
21 JUDGE PROST: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.
22 Mr. Tolimir, any further -- any comments or any further matters
23 that you want to raise today?
24 THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 I would like to respond to the question raised by the Prosecutor,
1 Mr. McCloskey. I would like to thank him, first and foremost. But as I
2 am defending myself, I don't wish to talk to the Prosecutor, and I refuse
3 to talk to Carla Del Ponte, too, because there was no purpose to that
4 meeting, and I had the right to refuse a meeting. And I can tell you here
5 and now that I don't wish to speak to the Prosecutor about the issues that
6 he wanted to discuss with me, which are not linked to these proceedings
7 and the trial.
8 Secondly, I don't wish to discuss any matters or any plea
9 bargaining or anything like that or any deals, and I don't have anything
10 to discuss with the Prosecution until the question of my arrest has been
11 solved, because I cannot build proper proceedings on the basis of the fact
12 that I was not arrested properly.
13 Now, if I am presumed innocent, how can I believe in what we
14 discuss if, at the beginning, at the starting point, we show a lack of
15 understanding and use certain things that are not -- that do not
16 correspond to the truth?
17 So could you bear that in mind, please?
18 JUDGE PROST: I will certainly bear in mind that, Mr. Tolimir, and
19 the whole of our discussion today, and I re-emphasise the Trial Chamber
20 shares your concern about the serious allegations you have raised with
21 respect to your arrest. The issue has not been dealt with, but will be
22 dealt with in due course. So I will certainly keep in mind all of the
23 matters that you have raised today.
24 If there's nothing further from the Prosecution or from you,
25 Mr. Tolimir, and you apparently have no other matters you wish to bring to
1 my attention, especially regarding your health, I will simply close, once
2 again, with exhorting you again to please consider following the requests
3 of the medical authorities, in terms of your medication. I know that
4 you've discussed this issue at length, but I simply add my voice to the
5 request, for your own health interests, that you do comply with the
6 requests of the medical doctors who are advising you.
7 And with that, there is nothing further for today. We will have
8 another Status Conference in due course. Mr. Tolimir, you will be
9 notified in advance, as you were this time, about a potential Status
10 Conference in the future.
11 Otherwise, we are adjourned for the afternoon.
12 Mr. Tolimir, did you have something you wish to say?
13 THE ACCUSED TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] I do.
14 I would like to ask you to let me know in advance and not two
15 hours before the Status Conference, about when the Status Conference will
16 take place. So please enable me to have enough time to contact my legal
17 adviser, which is something that I have a right to do, just like anybody
18 else defending themselves.
19 And I ask this time, too, that my legal adviser comes to The Hague
20 so that I can talk to him before I appear at the Status Conference. That
21 was not allowed. And I understand you question my right to defend myself,
22 but that was a right accorded to me by the Statute. So please don't -- I
23 don't want to make it that my health is a problem here. My health is not
24 the problem. I am in very good health. The problem is you don't want to
25 deal with other problems related to my arrest, and then you wish to bring
1 to the fore my health and to question my discretionary rights.
2 My health has not influenced my work in any way.
3 Thank you.
4 JUDGE PROST: We have your points on those issues.
5 We are adjourned, and I wish everyone a good afternoon and
7 Thank you.
8 --- Whereupon the Status Conference concluded
9 at 4.24 p.m.