Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 109

 1                          Tuesday, 11 December 2007

 2                          [Status Conference]

 3                          [Open session]

 4                          [The accused entered court]

 5                          --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

 6            JUDGE PROST:  Good afternoon, everyone.

 7            Madam Registrar, can you call the case, please.

 8            THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honour.  This is case number

 9    IT-05-88/2-PT, The Prosecutor versus Zdravko Tolimir.

10            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you very much.

11            Mr. Tolimir, I would like to confirm that you are receiving

12    interpretation and can understand me.  Is that correct?

13            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  Thank you.  I understand you,

14    and I'm hearing you quite clearly.

15            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you.  And if you have any difficulties at any

16    point in hearing me, please let me know immediately.

17            May I have the appearances, please.

18            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Good afternoon, Your Honour.

19            JUDGE PROST:  Good afternoon.

20            MR. McCLOSKEY:  Peter McCloskey with Rupert Elderkin and Janet

21    Stewart for the Prosecution.

22            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you very much.  And I note Mr. Tolimir is

23    present, self-represented.

24            Before we begin, I have one preliminary matter, Mr. Tolimir.  At

25    the last Status Conference, it was your first appearance as a

Page 110

 1    self-represented accused, and you were given at that time what I would as

 2    some latitude to express personal religious beliefs through the prayer at

 3    the beginning of the conversation.  However, you have elected,

 4    Mr. Tolimir, to represent yourself in a court proceeding, and you must

 5    conform your conduct to that context.

 6            While your religious beliefs are certainly fully respected here,

 7    so to must be the proper decorum and procedures of this Tribunal.  So from

 8    now on, I would ask you to refrain from such interventions and restrict

 9    yourself to matters appropriate to the court proceeding.

10            If you wish to offer prayers in relation to the proceedings,

11    please do so outside the courtroom before or after they commence, or else

12    silently to yourself.  I'm sure you will understand and cooperate with me

13    on this.

14            I'm going to move, then, to the substantive matters for this

15    afternoon.  This is the second Status Conference in this matter.  And

16    under the Rules, the Status Conference purposes are clear to organise

17    exchanges regarding preparations for trial, to look at the status of the

18    case, and, importantly, to allow you, Mr. Tolimir, to raise any issues

19    including issues related to your mental or physical condition, treatment,

20    at the UNDU, et cetera.

21            As has been our practice, I'll begin by going over the few - I

22    have very few - agenda items this afternoon; and then both the Prosecution

23    and you, Mr. Tolimir, can raise any issues that you wish to after that.

24            I'm going to begin with a very minor matter.  I just wanted to

25    have confirmed on the record the practice which is already in place

Page 111

 1    relating to filing deadlines, in light of the fact that the accused is

 2    self-represented at the moment and that requires a translation of

 3    documents.

 4            As has been the case to date, any filing deadlines applicable to

 5    the Prosecution, Mr. McCloskey, will commence when the translation of any

 6    submission made by Mr. Tolimir is filed.  So it would be filing date of

 7    the translation.

 8            Similarly, Mr. Tolimir, the deadlines for you will run from the

 9    date of service, or attempted service, of the translation of the

10    documents.  For the purpose of the registry and the Chamber and the

11    Prosecution, the date of that service or attempted service will be

12    determined based on the proces-verbals which are currently being filed

13    from time to time indicating the dates of service.

14            So I don't need any submissions on this point.  I simply wanted to

15    confirm that point on the record.

16            Now, if we can move, then, to the probably the most substantive

17    matter I wanted to deal with this afternoon, and that is pending motions

18    in this case.  And let me say, before dealing with the two motions I was

19    going to discuss originally, I am aware, Mr. Tolimir, that you have filed

20    a new submission.  I believe it was filed yesterday.  However, I have not

21    received a formal translation of that submission, nor obviously has the

22    Prosecution or the registry, if they're complicated, had an opportunity to

23    review it as well, to receive a translation and review it.

24            So I will not be addressing that submission today.  The normal

25    time-lines will run, and we will deal with it if it requires decision

Page 112

 1    after the recess.  However, I have been advised that it may relate, one

 2    again, to the issue of language, which we're going to be addressing this

 3    afternoon.  So I would note that, in the absence of new material, you can

 4    anticipate similar disposition in the matter as will be discussed shortly.

 5            There are two main motions pending that I want to mention.

 6    First, there have been preliminary motions filed under Rule 72, that was

 7    filed by you, Mr. Tolimir, within the deadline set, on the 30th of

 8    October, with a translation being filed on the 7th November.  Prosecution

 9    has replied to that motion on the 21st of November.

10            I can indicate that the decision on those motions -- on that

11    motion and those objections will be rendered shortly prior to the recess.

12    So you can expect that to be delivered by the Trial Chamber in due course.

13            I move, then, to the motion to the Pre-Trial Chamber and the

14    Registrar concerning assistance in appointing a legal advisor, disclosure

15    of material in a language that the accused understands, and notification

16    of special Defence on charges in the indictment, which was a motion filed

17    by Mr. Tolimir on the 16th of November, with the translation filed on the

18    20th of November.  The Prosecution has responded to that on December 4th,

19    as well as the registry has made a submission in relation to it on the 7th

20    of December.

21            I intend to deal orally with that motion, today, Mr. Tolimir.

22            You have raised, essentially, two main issues in this motion; one

23    relating to the appointment of a legal advisor, and the second relating to

24    the service of documents and the language and script in which they are

25    being served.

Page 113

 1            On the first issue of the appointment of a legal advisor, I need

 2    to reiterate that the primary responsibility for these matters,

 3    Mr. Tolimir, rests with the registry.  The Trial Chamber's involvement

 4    would arise if there is a specific decision taken, for example, that you

 5    want to bring to us for review.  However, from looking through your

 6    filings carefully, as well as those of the -- the registry, I'm satisfied

 7    that that is not the case here as of yet.

 8            Now, it is evident to me that are ongoing discussions between you

 9    and the registry on this very important matter, and I would encourage you

10    to continue to liaise with them on it.  I would also urge the registry to

11    make its best efforts to try and resolve the matter of an appointment of a

12    legal advisor as soon as possible.  It is obviously a very crucial matter

13    for the preparation of trial proceedings.

14            However, beyond that, there is nothing raised in this motion which

15    is properly before the Trial Chamber at this time, so there is no need for

16    any particular decision on that first issue.  But, again, Mr. Tolimir, I

17    encourage you to continue to discuss the matter with the registry, and I

18    do recognise that this is an important matter for you.

19            I move, then, to the second issue, that is raised in this motion,

20    which is the language and script of the documents that are being served.

21            Mr. Tolimir, we're going to close this chapter today.  At the last

22    Status Conference, I left the door open for you.  We discussed this matter

23    extensively, and I left the door open for to you come back to me on this

24    issue, but I did so with the hope that you would either reflect on it and

25    change your position, as I encouraged you to do, or that you would provide

Page 114

 1    something by way of a clear explanation and support for the position that

 2    you're taking.  But, unfortunately, you have done neither.

 3            I have filings by the registry which evidence your continuing

 4    refusal to accept documents which are not in, as you term it, Serbian and

 5    the Cyrillic script; and, further, your motion provides no explanation

 6    beyond a mere assertion that you don't understand the Latin script.

 7            You are correct, Mr. Tolimir, there is a right to receive relevant

 8    material in this Tribunal in a language you can understand, but this does

 9    not translate into a right for an accused, regardless of his or her

10    background, education, experience, to come before this Tribunal and demand

11    the production of documents in any language or script that he or she

12    chooses.  As I explained last time, in great detail, the right centres on

13    understanding, not on preference.

14            For your request to be entertained, Mr. Tolimir, there must be

15    something in the record beyond mere assertions to cast doubt on your

16    ability to understand material being provided to you in these proceedings.

17    And here the record simply does not raise such doubts; and, in fact, it

18    supports the opposite conclusion.

19            I'm just going to, by way of summary, highlight some of the points

20    in the record to which I'm referring.

21            You were educated in the former Yugoslavia where in accordance

22    with the submission of the registry, of 18th July, and acknowledged by you

23    to me at the Status Conference, the Roman script was taught in the school

24    system.  When you first appeared before this Tribunal, the indictment was

25    served upon you in B/C/S and the Latin script, and you acknowledged to me,

Page 115

 1    on the 4th of June, that you had, and I'm quoting here, "received a copy

 2    in a language I understand two days ago, and I have had time to read it

 3    and look through it."

 4            On the basis of that same material, Mr. Tolimir, you were able,

 5    within the time limits that were set, to prepare and submit preliminary

 6    objections to the indictment, and the arguments you have advanced clearly

 7    indicate an understanding of the content of that indictment.

 8            When I put direct questions to you, Mr. Tolimir, you have given me

 9    inconsistent answers on the issue of your understanding of the Latin

10    script.  These have ranged from "I don't understand it," to "I don't

11    understand sufficiently," to it being a language in which you cannot read

12    it quickly, to it being less understandable.  You have even pointed to

13    medical circumstances in 1983 which required you to relearn part of the

14    language, but you have not submitted anything to me in support of that.

15            And I also have noted, Mr. Tolimir, the Prosecution filed, on the

16    10th of October, in response your request for an extension of time, with

17    their response they provided examples of documents dating from the period

18    of 1992 to 1995, which were in Serbian in the Latin script, and they were

19    either signed by you, or sent to you in your official capacity with the

20    army at that time.  And I must note on the record, Mr. Tolimir, those

21    documents were filed, and I have also seen similar documents in the course

22    of sitting on the Popovic et al trial.

23            For me to accept your assertion of lack of understanding, I would

24    have to believe that you are -- you as an intelligent man, which you are,

25    as a high-ranking army official at that time in the middle of a war, that

Page 116

 1    you are communicating, sending out, receiving documents in a language you

 2    didn't understand.  I don't accept that, Mr. Tolimir.

 3            Therefore, based on all the material on the record, examples of

 4    which I have given, I do not doubt, rather, I'm positively satisfied that

 5    you are able to read and understand the material that's being provided to

 6    you in B/C/S in the Latin script.

 7            I'm further convinced that the sole basis for your objections is

 8    that these materials do not correspond precisely to the official national

 9    language in Serbia.  But as I stated to you last time, Mr. Tolimir, that

10    is not a basis upon which I would make a determination to -- to defer the

11    resources, the precious resources, the translation resources of the

12    Tribunal to assign them the task of translating of these documents.

13            Therefore, your motion of the 20th November, that's the date of

14    the filing of the translation, is denied in so far as the request for

15    language document service is concerned.

16            As I've said, Mr. Tolimir, we are closing this chapter today, but

17    I want you to be perfectly clear about one thing.  The charges against you

18    are extremely grave, and the case is a very complex one.  You have been

19    given time, and we have exhaustively considered the issue of these

20    documents.  Without prejudice, of course, to any objections you have made

21    on jurisdiction in the indictment, trial preparation in this case needs to

22    proceed.  That cannot even begin to take place in real terms without

23    regard -- you having regard to the evidence which you have so far refused

24    to accept.

25            It's an intolerable situation and one which the Trial Chamber

Page 117

 1    cannot allow to continue indefinitely.  I'm urging you, one more time,

 2    over the next short period, to reconsider the stance you have taken for

 3    the next week or so and to accept the service of documents on the next

 4    occasion.

 5            Failing that, Mr. Tolimir, you need to be clear that you will be

 6    leaving the Trial Chamber no option but to take action, and in particular

 7    to reconsider the issue of your self-representations considering that your

 8    conduct at this time is blocking entirely the proper and expeditious trial

 9    preparation.

10            To finish the matter, Mr. Tolimir, the choice is yours.

11            I'm going to move, then, to the third issue that I had on my

12    agenda, which involved you, Mr. McCloskey.  Last time, we spoke about the

13    disclosure situation with reference to Rule 66(A)(ii).  And without

14    obviously addressing the question of service, acceptance of service, let's

15    put it that way, I wonder if you are able to update me at all as to the

16    status of the disclosure of the Rule 66(A)(ii) materials.

17            MR. McCLOSKEY:  We are prepared to provide that material as soon

18    as -- excuse me.

19                          [Prosecution counsel confer]

20            MR. McCLOSKEY:  We've got that material.  It's ready to go.  It

21    came back once, but it can be sent again.

22            JUDGE PROST:  So all of the material that we discussed last time,

23    which you were putting together, you have attempted service of those

24    materials.  Is that correct?  Is there anything outstanding, I suppose, is

25    what I am looking to see.  If the materials were accepted, would that

Page 118

 1    constitute a complete package of disclosure as required?

 2            MR. McCLOSKEY:  I want to double-check that, Madam President, but

 3    we should be close; though, there's -- we're going to need a fair amount

 4    of audio statements and other things.  So I will need to double-check

 5    that, but we're very close.  When it comes back at us, that's the problem.

 6            JUDGE PROST:  I would ask you -- thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

 7            I would ask you to do that, to double-check, as soon as you can,

 8    and to put yourself in a position where you are able to confirm that that

 9    material has been or is in the position of being disclosable; and then

10    we'll take it from is there.

11            MR. McCLOSKEY:  All the material is on the EDS, so we have the --

12    we the ability to provide the indexes to the EDS just like that, and so it

13    is just a matter of getting the ability to do that.  I have introduced

14    myself to the General today, and perhaps we can work out some sort of a

15    situation where he will help avail himself of that option to go on the

16    electronic disclosure system where this material is.

17            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you for that, Mr. McCloskey, and I would

18    encourage you to continue to pursue those discussions and that avenue, so

19    that next time we can perhaps complete that issue in terms of the record.

20            Mr. Tolimir, do you have any questions you wish to raise or issues

21    or comments on this disclosure question related to Rule 66(A)(ii).

22            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have several matters I wish to

23    raise in relation to what you've just indicated.

24            First, I wish to greet everyone present, and I would like to refer

25    back to everything you have said, not only to what the Prosecutor has just

Page 119

 1    stated.  Thank you.

 2            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you, Mr. Tolimir.  I'm happy to hear you on

 3    the issue of 66(A)(ii), or if you had any -- any issues pertaining to the

 4    filing deadline that I outlined initially.

 5            However, on the issue of languages, Mr. Tolimir, I have heard

 6    extensive submissions.  We've had discussions about that issue both in

 7    writing and orally, and I have now ruled on the matter.  So I don't wish

 8    to revisit that particular issue.

 9            If you wish to raise anything, however, regarding disclosure

10    materials under 66(A)(ii), the matter just discussed with the Prosecution,

11    I'm happy to hear you on that.

12            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13            All the problems are related to the language, and the problem of

14    the language has to be discussed before everything else can be resolved.

15            Thank you.

16            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you, Mr. Tolimir.  You have my ruling on that

17    and my comments on that, so we will proceed on to the next issue.

18            For me, the only remaining issue that I wanted to raise this

19    afternoon was the question of your health, Mr. Tolimir.

20            Now, as always, I'm prepared to discuss this, if you prefer, in

21    private session; otherwise, we can discuss it in publicly, but it is

22    entirely up to you.  Would you like to proceed in private session for a

23    discussion of any health issues you might wish to raise or general issues

24    of your conditions of the UNDU?

25            Would you like to go to private session?

Page 120

 1            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  There is no need to move

 2    into private session because the registry has been manipulating my health,

 3    and I wish my health to be publicly discussed, but after we have discussed

 4    the earlier matters that the Trial Chamber seems to be avoiding all the

 5    time.  And before these matters are solved, nothing further can be dealt

 6    with.

 7            Thank you.

 8            JUDGE PROST:  Mr. Tolimir, I think I have made myself very clear,

 9    and I don't think my comments this afternoon could be classified as

10    avoidance in any respect.

11            So, we are not going to discuss the language issue again.

12    However, I would very much like to give you the opportunity to raise

13    anything to do with your health.  In particular, I want to know if there's

14    any particular things in terms of your conditions at the UNDU that you

15    wanted specifically to raise with me.  So I would appreciate, if you

16    wanted to raise those, that you do so at this time.

17            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the accused, please.

18            JUDGE PROST:  I'm sorry, Mr. Tolimir.  You need your microphone

19    on.  There, that's better.  Thank you.

20            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wish the discussion on my health

21    to be in public session and not in private session.  Thank you.

22            JUDGE PROST:  That's fine.  So we are in public session.  Are

23    there any particular matters that you want to raise regarding your health,

24    your treatment, anything that you wish to bring to the Trial Chamber's

25    attention, to my attention?

Page 121

 1            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 2            I wish to state that you, as the Trial Chamber, never respond to

 3    any of my filings.  Ever since my arrival here, none of my requests were

 4    met by you, including my request that I addressed to you and the registry

 5    on several occasions, with regard to the infringement of my discretionary

 6    rights and my abuse in detention from the moment I was arrested to this

 7    very day.

 8            My health is excellent, and all the medical checkups have proved

 9    that.  The last two medical checkups have shown that my pressure is good.

10    The top ceiling is 130 -- the top one being 130, and the lower one being

11    85 or 90.  This is the situation with regard to my pressure.  Without the

12    administration of any medication, and with my active physical exercise, in

13    view of my age, I believe my blood pressure is excellent.

14            However, the registry has been insisting upon informing the public

15    that my death is imminent and that my health is in a very bad condition,

16    and there's really no reason for that whatsoever, for such information to

17    be divulged.

18            I wrote in my filing that this was calculated with a view to

19    depriving me of my self-representation, as is your position not to serve

20    documents upon me in my own language and in the script I understand.  This

21    is also geared toward depriving me of my right to defend myself.

22            The registry and UNDU are purportedly taking care of my health for

23    the sake of the public; whereas, in reality, they're doing everything in

24    their power to cause my health to deteriorate.

25            My cell is under 24-hour camera surveillance.  There is a light on

Page 122

 1    in my cell even at night, and the guards insist upon waking me up every

 2    half-hour to check up on my health and on my situation in the cell.

 3            Every working day, from the moment I was arrested to this very

 4    date, and that's six months, I seem to be going through such an experience

 5    as if I were sleeping in a train compartment.  Everybody keeps waking me

 6    up; whereas, the public portrayal of my situation is that of my health

 7    being perfect.

 8            My wife wanted to bring me three different assortments of tea,

 9    since I don't take any medication.  Now they've prohibited me from

10    drinking camomile tea, herbal teas that would help improve my urinary

11    problems that I have had for several years now.  This is contrary to all

12    rules governing human rights, particularly of individuals held in

13    detention who have not yet been convicted.  They want to drug me with

14    medication, the origin of which I'm not aware of; whereas, they prohibit

15    me from drinking teas that I'm perfectly familiar with.

16            In addition to all this, I am in excellent health, regardless of

17    the medication needed.  But what I need is to be able to prepare my

18    Defence and to given all the necessary pre-conditions for preparing my

19    Defence out of my cell, out of detention.

20            All the rights that you have stem from the rights of the accused

21    under the Statute.  Articles 20 and 21 provide that all the original

22    rights are vested with the accused.  The accused is the one who has the

23    rights that everybody else has to respect; however, you, as the Presiding

24    Judge of the Trial Chamber, do not respect them.  The Prosecution does not

25    respect them by serving upon me material in a language that I don't

Page 123

 1    understand.  The registry does not respect them, as they -- they consider

 2    me to have been preparing for my Defence for these past six years;

 3    whereas, I have not received a single document aside from the indictment.

 4            In the past six months, I have not been given any sort of legal

 5    assistance.  An accused, defending himself out of detention and deprived

 6    of all other conditions enabling him to obtain what he needs to obtain,

 7    needs to have legal assistance, because my legal assistants have to be

 8    able to work out in the field and prepare my defence.  I don't see how can

 9    you expect me to prepare my Defence on my own in my cell in those four

10    walls with the paper that I have.

11            You say, here, that I told you that I had understood my

12    indictment.  I only told you --

13            JUDGE PROST:  Mr. Tolimir --

14            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- that I was given the

15    indictment --

16            JUDGE PROST: Mr. Tolimir --

17            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- that I skimmed through it, and

18    that it was on that basis that I plead.  Even now, you are ---

19            JUDGE PROST:  Mr. Tolimir, I'm going to stop you.

20            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- evading the territory that you--

21            JUDGE PROST:  Mr. Tolimir, please.  Stop here for a moment.

22            As I mentioned to you, I have dealt with the issue of language.

23    What we were discussing, and what I want to go back to now, is the issues

24    you raised regarding your health, and in particular issues that you have

25    with the treatment at the UNDU.  I don't wish to revisit, again, the

Page 124

 1    issues that have been raised in your motions and decided upon, or

 2    deferred.

 3            Dealing first with the last point you were making on legal

 4    assistant, as I indicated earlier, I certainly appreciate the importance

 5    of the appointment of your legal counsel.  I have looked very carefully at

 6    your submissions regarding legal assistant.  I should say not legal

 7    counsel, because you are aware of the distinction between counsel and an

 8    assistant.

 9            But, as I mentioned earlier, this is a matter that has to be

10    worked out initially with the registry.  I have urged the registry, and

11    I'm continuing to do so, to try and resolve that matter.  So I appreciate

12    how important that is; and, certainly, I would encourage you to continue

13    those discussions with the registry.  But that is a matter that primarily

14    has to be dealt with, first of all, by the registry.

15            Now, if we could go back to your points relating to the treatment

16    in the UNDU.  I can assure you, Mr. Tolimir, that I give -- I give careful

17    consideration --

18            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] French, French, French.  I'm

19    listening to French.  I don't understand it.

20            JUDGE PROST:  Can we check the channel, please, Madam Usher.

21            I'm sorry.  Are you receiving translation now, Mr. Tolimir, not in

22    French, but in B/C/S?  Are you hearing me now?

23            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Yes.  Now I'm getting

24    the translation in Serbo-Croatian.  Thank you.

25            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you.

Page 125

 1            Now, Mr. Tolimir, I can assure you that we do, the Trial Chamber

 2    does give very careful consideration to all of the submissions that have

 3    you made.  We have issued written decisions, in fact, by example, on the

 4    10th of October, we did issue a written decision on your submissions

 5    regarding a violation of your rights.

 6            I'm not sure that you accepted service of that decision,

 7    Mr. Tolimir, but we certainly do give consideration to every submission

 8    that you make to us, and we respond to them when we require a decision

 9    from us.  Some of them raised matters that aren't properly before the

10    Trial Chamber.  But certainly the decision of 10th October, by example, is

11    a decision where we dealt with submissions you had made on the violation

12    of your rights.  So we are certainly prepared to do so, Mr. Tolimir.

13            As I've mentioned previously, the matters obviously of your

14    detention and the day-to-day supervision and activities is a matter

15    that -- or is for the registry and the officials at the detention centre,

16    and the Trial Chamber, of course, does not wish to interfere with the

17    day-to-day administration, which is the responsibility of those bodies.

18            However, I note that you have raised today, very clearly, the

19    issue of the interruption of your sleep in the night, and the measures

20    currently being used by the registry in terms of monitoring your

21    condition.  Without in any way interfering with their responsibilities in

22    this regard, I will ask them to consider the matter and to consider what

23    measures might be employed to be the least invasive, in terms of your

24    sleep.

25            So I will take up your point on this, Mr. Tolimir; and through --

Page 126

 1    through our legal officer, I will have some communications with the

 2    registry on that -- that particular point, because I note you have very

 3    clearly explained what your concerns are.  So I will pursue those as best

 4    as possible, given the roles here in terms of administration.

 5            So I will certainly take that forward.  I think you've made it

 6    very clear, as you have on previous occasions, that you -- your position

 7    regarding your health.  The registry, again, being responsible for these

 8    matters, has made their position clear, and there really isn't much that

 9    the -- that I can do or the Chamber can do in that respect.

10            I would, again, urge you to -- to take the medical advice that is

11    being provided to you, and to follow that, Mr. Tolimir.  As I say, I will

12    follow up on the particular points you have raised.

13            As to your latter comments, again, we're not going to revisit

14    general issues, Mr. Tolimir, at this time.

15            Are there any other -- I believe that was the specific issues I

16    wished to deal with.  Is there anything else you wish to raise, Mr.

17    Tolimir?  Again, we're not going to revisit the issue of language or

18    service of documents at this time, but are there other issues that you

19    wanted to raise this afternoon.

20            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, there are.  Thank you for

21    allowing me to say that you are evading all questions that have to do with

22    process and procedural actions.  You are asking about the state of my

23    health, which is excellent, but you are not concerned that I'm being

24    prevented from receiving minimum legal assistance that I have a right to

25    under Article 21 of the Statutes and Article 14 of the International

Page 127

 1    Covenant on Human Rights.

 2            I have written five motions on this topic, and I have been writing

 3    motions on this, that I need to be given minimum legal assistance as a

 4    person defending themselves and is currently in detention.  The registry

 5    does not wish to appoint legal advisors that I submitted.  I did not wait

 6    for any deadlines to expire.  I completed everything in the -- in the

 7    quickest possible deadline.  I didn't wait in appointing my legal

 8    advisors, but the registry does not want to appoint my lawyers and

 9    advisors because it does not wish to me to represent myself.  It is my

10    fundamental right to represent myself and this cannot be delegated to

11    somebody else, and this has to concern you as the Presiding Judge.

12            In all laws, in all countries, members of the international

13    community, and all laws and conventions that the Statute of the

14    International Criminal Court is based on, agree that the accused can

15    represent himself in his own mother tongue and in the language he

16    understands and can read.  You not wish to discuss this question which is

17    the fundamental question, the most fundamental of all questions.

18            I cannot be tried here.  I cannot be denied the right to represent

19    myself and to award this right to somebody else.  No lawyer can receive

20    documents unless I receive them first.  When I receive them in the

21    language and the script that I understand, only then can they be handed

22    over to a lawyer.

23            My documents cannot be disclosed to anyone else who would be

24    possibly imposed on me, because in Article 21 it does not say that I can

25    be imposed representation.  It says that I can be appointed

Page 128

 1    representation, but I cannot be given something that I'm not seeking.  I'm

 2    not seeking representation.  I'm just asking for legal assistants and for

 3    them to be paid.  I have found my own legal assistants.  So the registry

 4    provides for legal assistants to indigent persons who do not have the

 5    funds to cover that themselves.  The International Tribunal can cover such

 6    costs if the accused are unable to cover those costs.

 7            I don't need legal assistants.  I am choosing the legal

 8    assistants, and you just need to pay for that.  The registry needs to pay

 9    for that, but you don't want to deal with that. That is the main

10    question.  I cannot carry out any activities in the field.  From the

11    detention unit, I cannot have any documents.  I do not have any documents

12    from other cases in order to acquaint myself with the jurisdiction of this

13    Tribunal; and, constantly, you are referring to the jurisdiction.  So I

14    need to have all of these things, and only my legal assistants can prepare

15    all of this.  And for the past six months, I have not been allowed a

16    minimum of legal assistance that I have a right to under the Statutes and

17    under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

18            I don't know why you are evading this question.  This is the

19    essential question.  Why have my lawyers not been appointed as legal

20    advisors, ones that I named on the 10th of October.  That is two months

21    ago, because it is already past the 10th of December.  They have been

22    representing Milan Martic for five years before this Tribunal.  They have

23    five years of experience before this Tribunal, more than perhaps some

24    Judges who are members of the Trial Chamber.  And according to them, the

25    jurisdiction does not apply to them, and they cannot be elected because

Page 129

 1    the registry does not wish to agree to that.

 2            JUDGE PROST:  Mr. Tolimir, let me stop you there.

 3            Unquestionably, and perhaps you weren't listening when I spoke

 4    earlier, I do accept the points that you have made, which you have made in

 5    writing and also orally, of your request for and need for legal

 6    assistance.  Certainly, we have discussed the issue of your

 7    self-reputation on previous occasions.  The registry has filed a

 8    submission, in which they have detailed the discussions that have been

 9    ongoing between you and them and your selected -- or the names that you

10    have provided to them, and they have provided an explanation as to some of

11    the reasons for the difficulties in actually concluding the appointment.

12            You may not be aware of this in detail because have you not been

13    accepting the filings, but there is a filing by the registry explaining

14    this.  No one, not the registry, nor the Trial Chamber, disputed your

15    position that you wish to have legal assistants appointed and that you

16    have identified individuals, but there are other factors such as whether

17    the individuals in question are prepared to act for you, et cetera.

18            I don't want to get into the it details of it again, because that

19    is a primary responsibility of the registry.  But it is not a matter which

20    I am avoiding in any way, nor is it a matter that the registry from their

21    submissions is voiding either.  But there are ongoing matters that have to

22    be resolved before the appointments can be finalised.

23            Should the registry take a positive decision not to appoint

24    someone and you wish to bring that forward, certainly you can bring that

25    to us.   But that has not been done to date.  There is no decision on the

Page 130

 1    part of the registry not to appoint a particular individual, so far as I'm

 2    aware from the filings to date.

 3            So I take the points, you've made your position very clear, and we

 4    will revisit this matter.  Should there be any particular decisions taken,

 5    then certainly you can bring them to our attention, if you wish to. But at

 6    the moment what is important is that you look at the material the registry

 7    is providing you with, you discuss the matter with them, so that the

 8    appointment of your legal assistants can be carried out.

 9            So I'm going to leave that issue at that stage, Mr. Tolimir.  I

10    think your position is very clear on the record, and I again want to be

11    very clear:  My remarks earlier relating to self-reputation were tied very

12    directly to the language issue.  I think my comments were very clear, and

13    that's where I'm going to leave the matter, Mr. Tolimir.

14            So unless you have any other particular issues that you wish to

15    discuss, as I say, the issue of legal assistants, I'm aware of your

16    positions.  I would urge you, and I am urging the registry, to conclude

17    this matter as soon as possible with the appointment of a legal assistant

18    that is of your choice, Mr. Tolimir.

19            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise, but there is a crucial

20    question that I would like to have recorded in the transcript, as you say.

21            On several occasions, I asked for my legal advisors to be

22    appointed, the ones that I proposed, in order to assistant me in

23    conducting my Defence over the past six months; however, the registry

24    keeps refusing.  This is why I addressed you, as the Trial Chamber, as a

25    control organ, to see why the secretariat is wasting my time for six

Page 131

 1    months, because I didn't receive a single document or the minimum legal

 2    assistance that I have a right to under Article 21.

 3            I would like this Trial Chamber to see why I am being denied legal

 4    assistance in all possible options, from the beginning since I have come

 5    before the Tribunal until today.  As a control organ, you need to see why

 6    somebody is obstructing and eating up my time that is it valuable for me

 7    for preparation, because six months have already gone by and I have not

 8    received a single document.  I have not analysed it with my legal advisors

 9    who need to provide the minimum of legal assistance to me that I have a

10    right to.

11            So I would like to ask you to view this problem from that aspect

12    and not to say that it is a problem of the registry.  The Trial Chamber

13    has just been reviewing my state of health.  I don't understand that, and

14    now you say that you will not discuss disclosure.  It's not that I do not

15    wish to receive the material.  I cannot receive it, because if I do

16    receive it, then the deadlines start running, the procedure starts

17    running.  I cannot receive something in a language that you consider that

18    I know and that you would wish me to know, that you made up, and that was

19    created after the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  I cannot speak that

20    language.  I do not wish to learn it again.

21            You would need to have a course here in Bosniak, Croatian, and

22    Serbian.  It is a new language, and here I'm only studying English.  I'm

23    not learning that Bosniak/Serbian/Croatian language that was created after

24    the war.  I would like you to keep this in mind.

25            JUDGE PROST:  Mr. Tolimir --

Page 132

 1            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I cannot accept that the language --

 2    I cannot receive the documents because I don't understand the language.

 3    It's not that I don't want to, and I would like this to be entered into

 4    the transcript.  I do not wish to enter into procedural actions with

 5    documents that I cannot read and cannot interpret.

 6            Thank you.

 7            JUDGE PROST:  Your position on the language issue is very clearly

 8    on the record, as is the decision that was rendered earlier.  So we're not

 9    going to revisit that.

10            As for the legal assistance, in closing, that issue for this

11    afternoon, Mr. Tolimir, as I stated, the Registrar provided a submission

12    outlining state of the discussions with you on the issue of your legal

13    assistants.  That is dated the 16th of November.  It was served upon you,

14    but I am -- I imagine it was amongst the documents that you did not agree

15    to accept.

16            So I certainly take your point.  Your point is on the record, as

17    I've indicated, as to your need on legal assistants.  I'm sure the

18    registry will be following the proceedings and will take note of your

19    comments and of my request that they work to resolve this matter as soon

20    as possible.

21            Should it reach a point where any decision which, based on the

22    material before me, there has not been, a positive decision on the part of

23    anyone to deny you at this stage, the particular legal assistant that is

24    being investigated or pursued, there's been no positive decision to say no

25    to that request.  If there is that, and you wish to bring it to your

Page 133

 1    attention, certainly you can do so.

 2            But for the moment, I would please urge you to take a look at what

 3    the registry has set out in their submission of the 16th of November in

 4    that document, and I'm urging them, as well as you, to continue to work

 5    towards resolving the issue of legal assistants as soon as possible.

 6            But we will leave the matter there, and I have your point very

 7    clearly, that -- yes, Mr. Tolimir -- but, as I say, I don't wish to hear

 8    you again on the language issue, please.

 9            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  You do not wish to

10    discuss about things that are not authorised to discuss, and I understand

11    that.  I would just like to say that you need to understand that the

12    registry does not want to resolve the question of my legal assistants, and

13    the registry has not been talking with me for a month.  They only had one

14    conversation with me.

15            You are saying that you are -- that I'm communicating with the

16    registry, but I would like the transcript to reflect that I'm not

17    communicating with the registry.  I'm not talking with them.  I don't what

18    they're doing and what they want.  You, as the Pre-Trial Judge, need to

19    have this in mind.  As the control organ, you need to see if any of the

20    sides in the trial is being prejudiced.   You do not wish to see here that

21    I'm prejudiced, because the trial is conducted in a language and in a

22    script that I don't understand.

23            The problem here is that I cannot study a million pages of

24    material in a language that I don't understand.  My own Serbian language I

25    learned.  I learned to write in the Cyrillic.  I'm writing like a person

Page 134

 1    in the 4th grade, like a young boy, and you can see that by my

 2    handwriting.

 3            JUDGE PROST:  Mr. Tolimir --

 4            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do not wish to discuss any other

 5    things now.

 6            JUDGE PROST:  Please stop.  We're not going to revisit the

 7    language issue, period.  Now I have your points regarding discussions with

 8    the registry.  I'm asking them to open again the discussions with you.  If

 9    they have not spoken with you, I'm asking them to do so, and I'm asking

10    you, on your part, to read the documentation that the registry has

11    provided outlining the steps that they have taken regarding the

12    appointment of your legal assistant, and we're going to end the matter

13    there.

14            I am inviting both the registry and you to engage again in

15    discussions so that we can, as soon as possible, resolve the issue of your

16    legal assistant.  But we're not revisiting the issue of the language, and

17    we won't discuss further this question.  I think your position is very

18    clear on the record, and I understand your position.

19            Mr. Tolimir.

20            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm asking you what the date of this

21    document is.  Secondly, I don't know the language the document is written

22    in.  I cannot read it, so could you please send somebody to read that for

23    me or find a way.  If I don't know the language, maybe somebody can read

24    it to me.  There is a translator.  They can read that to me. I cannot read

25    it.

Page 135

 1            You can send hundreds of documents to me, but I don't know how to

 2    read.  And this is why I cannot accept them because the procedural

 3    deadlines are running, and I cannot read the documents in a language that

 4    is not my mother tongue and that I did not learn.

 5            Thank you.

 6            JUDGE PROST:  Mr. Tolimir, on this particular issue, I will invite

 7    the registry to communicate with you, to discuss with you, the content of

 8    that communication and their ongoing efforts to try and appoint your legal

 9    advisor.  I will ask them to specifically do that, and we will leave it at

10    that point.

11            I hope that by the time of your next meeting, our next Status

12    Conference, that the issue of your legal assistant will have been

13    resolved.  So I will ask the registry to follow up on that and to ensure

14    that you're aware of their ongoing efforts and the status of that matter.

15            I believe that is all of the issues.  Mr. McCloskey, does the

16    Prosecution have any particular issues it wished to raid this afternoon.

17            MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, Madam President.

18            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you very much.  Then barring any new issues,

19    not the ones we have been discussing, but any new issues, I believe that

20    covers all of the matters necessary for this afternoon's Status

21    Conference.

22            The next appearance will be communicated to you, Mr. Tolimir.

23            Yes, Mr. Tolimir.

24            THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Again, I would like it to be

25    recorded in the transcript that you and the Prosecution have the materials

Page 136

 1    on the basis of which I'm being charged.  I don't have the material.  Only

 2    on the basis of the indictment that I read while I was still free, I know

 3    that I was charged just because I was the deputy commander of the Main

 4    Staff for Republika Srpska for Intelligence Affairs.  I am only charged

 5    for being the deputy of Ratko Mladic.  I am not ashamed of that.  I'm

 6    proud of having been in the army under the command of Ratko Mladic.

 7            I would like to ask you to tell my why I am being charged and

 8    being held here for six months, so that I know, on the basis of which I

 9    can build my Defence.

10            Other than that, there is no other charge other than that I was a

11    soldier of the army of Republika Srpska, and the indictment was published

12    openly on the web site of the Tribunal, and that is all I have read.  I

13    didn't even read the pre-trial motion.  I would like to know what I'm

14    being charged with, why I am here.

15            If there is no other charge other than my being deputy commander

16    of the -- commander of the army of Republika Srpska, then I ask to be

17    allowed to go -- to be provisionally released and to be defended from

18    freedom.  I have nothing to fear, because all I am being charged with is

19    of being the deputy of the commander of the army of Republika Srpska,

20    Ratko Mladic.

21            Thank you.

22            JUDGE PROST:  Thank you, Mr. Tolimir.  Obviously, this Status

23    Conference is not the time or place to go through the contents of the

24    indictment in that respect.

25            And in relation to any issues of provisional release, Mr. Tolimir,

Page 137

 1    you have chosen to represent yourself, so those matters would have to be

 2    raised in the proper manner by way of proper motions for consideration;

 3    and, again, the Status Conference is not a time for consideration of those

 4    issues.

 5            So those matters are on the record now and they can be dealt

 6    with.  But you've elected your own representation, so you have to bring

 7    them forward in accordance with the procedures of the Tribunal.

 8            And with that, there being no other matters before us, this

 9    proceeding is adjourned.

10            Thank you, everyone.  Have a good afternoon.

11                          --- Whereupon the Status Conference adjourned

12                          at 3.18 p.m.