Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

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 1                           Friday, 31 October 2008

 2                           [Status Conference]

 3                           [Open session]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.32 p.m.

 5             JUDGE PROST:  Good afternoon to everyone.

 6             Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honour.  This is case number

 8     IT-05-88/2-PT, The Prosecutor versus Zdravko Tolimir.

 9             JUDGE PROST:  Thank you very much.  Good afternoon to everyone.

10             Mr. Tolimir, I with like to confirm that you're receiving

11     interpretation and you can understand the proceedings, and should there

12     be difficulty - I see you acknowledging that you do have translation at

13     the moment - should you encounter any difficulties, please let me know

14     immediately.  Okay.  Thank you.

15             The appearances, I note, for the Prosecution, Mr. McCloskey,

16     Mr. Thayer, Mr. Vanderpuye, and Ms. Stewart.

17             And Mr. Tolimir, of course, is self-represented, and I do note,

18     however, that Mr. Gajic, one of his legal advisors, is present in the

19     court this afternoon with the permission of the Chamber.

20             This is the sixth Status Conference in this case.  At the last

21     one being held on the 30th of July, I think, by now, all very familiar

22     with the purposes behind the requirements of Rule 65 bis (A).  I want to

23     begin.

24             I have a few items this afternoon, and then, of course, I will

25     allow the parties to raise any matters that they wish to bring to my

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 1     attention.  But as I previewed at the previous Status Conference, one of

 2     the main things I want to accomplish today is to set some of the final

 3     deadlines for filings.

 4             I'll start, Mr. McCloskey, I note that the Prosecution on the

 5     15th of October has filed the 65 ter list, the witness list, the witness

 6     summaries, and the exhibit lists in this case, which the Chamber has

 7     reviewed, and I assume Mr. Tolimir has received that as well.

 8             I'm going to -- sorry.

 9             Mr. Tolimir, go ahead.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.  I would like to

11     say good afternoon to everyone, and I'd like this trial to be conducted

12     according to God's will.  I would like to tell that you I have not

13     received, from the English translation into the Serbian translation, the

14     summary that you're talking about; and as I say, I don't understand what

15     it says in English because I don't understand English.

16             Thank you.

17             JUDGE PROST:  Thank you for that, Mr. Tolimir.  Yes, I'm sorry, I

18     had suspected, perhaps, that perhaps the translation has not been

19     prepared.  I'm sure it is being prepared and will be provided to you

20     in -- in due course.  But for your benefit, at this point, Mr. Tolimir,

21     if you have regard to Rule 65 ter, you will see the requirements on the

22     Prosecution in terms of the filing of a list of the witnesses they intend

23     to produce in their case, summaries of the evidence of those witnesses,

24     as well as exhibits.  That material has been filed in English, and I'm

25     assuming that you will receive it soon in the translated version.

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 1             So if there's any difficulties, obviously, we can come back to

 2     that at some point, but that is basically what I was addressing.

 3             Now, following upon that filing, Mr. McCloskey, two matters that

 4     I want to try and set some dates for today:  One, of course, the

 5     pre-trial brief; and, secondly, I can advise that this Trial Chamber is

 6     quite prepared to entertain and decide motions under 92 bis with respect

 7     to proposed written evidence and, as well, motions on adjudicated facts

 8     under Rule 94.  We will entertain both those motions.  I appreciate,

 9     particularly with the those motions having reviewed your 65 ter list,

10     that that will involve a considerable month of material.

11             So, if I ask you, Mr. McCloskey, with reference to both those

12     items, the pre-trial brief and, as well, those motions, if you could give

13     me an indication of timing that would be feasible for the Prosecution.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Good afternoon, Madam President.

15             I think -- well, we are still on track for mid-November for the

16     pre-trial brief; and the 92 bis motion and adjudicated facts, given the

17     vast majority of witnesses we would like to be 92 bis no

18     cross-examination, that is going to be an extensive filing, as you've

19     eluded to, and extremely important for the resources and the future of

20     this trial.  I would really like to get -- have significant time to do

21     that, which I would think it would be best if I could consult briefly

22     with colleagues.

23             JUDGE PROST:  Go ahead.

24                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

25             JUDGE PROST:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

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 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, we naturally all agreed very quickly.

 2     February 1 would , given everything that we have to do and the importance

 3     of this, would fit our schedule the best.  We need to get up to the

 4     holidays and get beyond them and then finish it up.

 5             JUDGE PROST:  Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

 6             Mr. Tolimir, before I set the deadline, do you have any comment

 7     you wish to make regarding these filing deadlines.  This is it in

 8     relation to the requirements of the Rules for a pre-trial brief and for

 9     two specific motions that the Prosecution is indicated they are going to

10     bring relating to Rule 92 bis, which allows allowed for the introduction

11     of written evidence without cross-examination; and the Rule 94, which

12     allows the Trial Chamber to admit certain adjudicated facts.  So you

13     could have regard to both those rules.

14             Have you any particular comment on the time-line.  So this is

15     solely on the question of when the Prosecution will be required to file

16     those materials.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             I think that it is inappropriate at a Status Conference to

19     discuss something that the parties should state their views and that both

20     parties are not aware of.  I can observe that the Registry has not sent

21     me what you're discussing now.  They haven't supplied me with that at

22     all, and that is inappropriate and untenable.  It is also untenable to

23     ask me to make any comments since I haven't received the material.

24             I received the text in English which I don't understand.

25             Thank you.

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 1             JUDGE PROST:  Thank you, Mr. Tolimir.

 2             Let me just try to clarify this.  The material which I first

 3     discussed, and I simply was noting on the record that it had been

 4     received, was the pre-trial brief filed by the Prosecution -- I'm sorry,

 5     was the 65 ter lists, which is required under that rule.  That material,

 6     you're correct, has not yet been provided to you in a translated form,

 7     but it will be provided to you.

 8             The second issue which I just discussed with Mr. McCloskey was

 9     the question of material that has yet to be filed, so it's not material

10     that you have not received in translated version, Mr. Tolimir.  It's

11     material that the Prosecution will file.  I'm simply going to set now the

12     dates for the filing of that material, which I would not anticipate you

13     would have a particular comment upon.  It is not material that you

14     haven't been provided it.  It is simply that the Prosecution is going to

15     file, as required, the pre-trial brief and is going to elect to file

16     motions under particular rules.  So that is the situation.

17             So, based on the submissions I have received from the

18     Prosecution, I will, Mr. McCloskey, just to avoid having to bring any

19     applications to extend time, for the purposes of the pre-trial brief, I

20     will set the filing deadline for Friday, the 28th of November, so that we

21     can ensure that you have adequate time to prepare and file a full brief.

22             That, then, Mr. Tolimir, will be translated and provided to you.

23             With reference is to the motions, I will, again, just to give you

24     times, so that we don't have to deal with motions, I will set the filing

25     time for those two motions, or there may be more than two contained in

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 1     there, but for the motions related to 92 bis and Rule 94 for

 2     February 13th, again, on a Friday.

 3             So, again, Mr. Tolimir that is not material that will you have at

 4     the moment, but you will ultimately receive it, and then you will have to

 5     respond to it at that time.

 6             So, having dealt with those particular filing deadlines, I did

 7     want to mention, Mr. Tolimir, to you, that at the next Status Conference,

 8     or after the filing of these materials by the Prosecution, I will, then,

 9     be turning to you to set deadlines for the filing of a notice on a

10     special Defence under Rule 67 (B) and the Defence pre-trial brief.

11             So I'm just forewarning you.  There's nothing today that you need

12     to be addressing on that, but those deadlines will be forthcoming in the

13     near future, so you will need to be preparing for that with your legal

14     advisors.

15             I'm going to move on to the question of possible agreed facts.

16     Now, there's provision in Rule 65 ter (H) whereby the parties can agree

17     to certain facts, which then can be admitted before the Trial Chamber.

18     This is a particularly important rule not only for the purposes of

19     judicial economy in terms of time and resources, but it also really

20     permits both parties to focus on the key issues in the case, which are

21     disputed.  So to the greater extent to which the parties can reach

22     agreement, the better in terms of focussing the case on the issues

23     that -- for the Trial Chamber and the parties to address.

24             So I place considerable emphasis on this.  I know it's been

25     raised with you at the meetings at the senior legal officer had with both

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 1     parties.

 2             Mr. McCloskey, perhaps you could advise whether there has been

 3     any discussions any progress on -- I appreciate you're not going to be in

 4     a position to give conclusive answers, but can you advise whether any

 5     progress in this area.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, I had a chance to briefly speak with

 7     Mr. Gajic today, he spoke briefly to Mr. Tolimir, and so we're beginning

 8     discussions.  They haven't started out very well, but we'll still --

 9     we'll continue them, and especially now that perhaps Mr. Tolimir is

10     hearing how important this is.

11             I have suggested that there are plenty of facts that we are ready

12     to agree to, especially regards historical facts, UN resolutions, the

13     conduct of the 28th division, Naser Oric, as well as many, many other

14     things.  We have been unable to convince Mr. Tolimir to meet with us, so

15     that makes it difficult, but we remain available to discuss this with

16     him, and we also, of course, are in touch with Mr. Gajic.

17             JUDGE PROST:  And, Mr. McCloskey, if it would assist in the

18     process, I take it the Prosecution would be prepared to put forward in

19     writing some possible agreed facts.  I appreciate that the discussions --

20     the importance of the discussions, and I will raise that issue shortly,

21     but I assume that is a possibility.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, it is, and, actually, Mr. Gajic and I

23     have -- Mr. Gajic just suggested that, and I responded that, yes, that is

24     possible, but I would first like to hear from Mr. Tolimir that he was

25     amenable to starting the process in that regard.  The response I got back

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 1     from Mr. Gajic was that Mr. Tolimir was not.

 2             But, as I say, that has just begun, and I don't know how much

 3     information Mr. Tolimir was able to get from Mr. Gajic.  Not much.  We've

 4     just had a brief discussion, so we, of course, remain open to do that,

 5     though communication is somewhat limited.

 6             JUDGE PROST:  Okay.  Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

 7             Mr. Tolimir, if I could turn to you on this issue.  As I've

 8     indicated, I place great importance on these agreed facts, and let me

 9     stress this is not just in terms of the Prosecution.  There may be many

10     facts that you wish to put forward that could also be subject to

11     agreement with the Prosecution, so it is a two-way tool, if you will.

12             So, Mr. Tolimir, can you advise me whether are you, indeed,

13     prepared to discuss this matter with the Prosecution?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             I want to say, for the record, that I will not accept and

16     recognise a single adjudicated fact which has not been proved in my trial

17     before this court.  In view of the fact that there were many agreements

18     made and bargaining between the Prosecutor and others, with respect to

19     these facts, I'd like to have all these facts proved and -- during the

20     trial, during the proceedings.

21             Thank you.

22             JUDGE PROST:  Mr. Tolimir, there is perhaps some lack of clarity

23     here.  There is a significant difference between the adjudicated facts

24     which the Prosecution has indicated an intention to put forward a number

25     of facts that they would like the Court to accept on the basis of Rule 94

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 1     as having been adjudicated or being subject to judicial notice, in

 2     essence, that is one thing.  But what I'm talking about at this point are

 3     not things that the Court would rule upon based on a motion, but, rather,

 4     points in this case which both parties agree to.  It's not that we're

 5     dealing with matters where the Court would rule on an application from

 6     your party or the other; it's facts that the both parties can come

 7     forward and say, "Yes, we both agree on whatever the fact may be."

 8             So, in that light, would you be prepared to at least discuss that

 9     matter, to look at the some of the proposed facts which you might very

10     well agree to and want to have in evidence without having to call

11     witnesses or documentary material.

12             Can I ask to you just respond on that, Mr. Tolimir, please?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             I thought you understand me when I said that I cannot accept any

15     adjudicated fact until I test it here, the witnesses, the evidence, in

16     court during the trial in keeping with procedure which relate to my

17     trial.

18             If I was not clear enough, then you can write it down, write it

19     for me, and I will respond in writing as well.

20             Thank you.

21             JUDGE PROST:  Thank you, Mr. Tolimir.

22             Well, I'm not satisfied with that particular conclusion on this

23     issue; however, I will leave it there for the moment.  I would encourage

24     the Prosecution and the legal advisors, Mr. Gajic, I would encourage you

25     to discuss this matter further.

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 1             Mr. Gajic, I would ask to you discuss it further with

 2     Mr. Tolimir, perhaps going through the Rules with him, and I would ask

 3     that you do discuss the matter with the Prosecution as well.

 4             We will revisit this issue in due course because given the nature

 5     of this case, I think there is considerable scope for agreed facts that

 6     are not controversial.  I'm going to leave it in the hands of the parties

 7     to try.  I know that both parties will make efforts.

 8             I hope, Mr. Tolimir, that you will take into consideration the

 9     discussions, and we can come back to this at the next Status Conference.

10             Okay.  Before I proceed on to some issues relating to, well, at

11     least one pending motion, Mr. Tolimir, I want to raise something with

12     you, and I don't necessarily want to discuss this in depth today.  In

13     fact, I would really prefer - Mr. Tolimir, I will obviously give you a

14     chance to comment - but I would really prefer if you would simply just

15     take this away with you, think about it over the period of time between

16     now and the next Status Conference.

17             The issue, Mr. Tolimir, I want to return to, because it has been

18     the subject of much discussion previously, is the question of your

19     representation.

20             With the material that the Prosecution has filed, which I know

21     you have yet to see but you will you see it shortly, and the various

22     materials that I just spoke about that are to come, I'm certain that

23     you're going to in the coming weeks have a much better sense of the

24     complexity of this matter, the legal complexity of this matter, and the

25     challenges that you're going to face in trial preparations as a

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 1     self-represented accused.

 2             Now, you have stated on the record before me on a number of

 3     occasions, Mr. Tolimir, that you're not a lawyer; and while you do have

 4     the benefit of legal advisors, I want you to be clear that there are

 5     significant limitations as to what they can do for you in that capacity

 6     as advisors and not as counsel.

 7             I'm clearly of the opinion from some of the comments that you

 8     have made during the course of the proceedings that there are things that

 9     you would like your legal advisors to do.  There are roles you would like

10     them to play which are reserved for counsel, appointed counsel, and which

11     legal advisors simply cannot carry out in their limited capacities.

12             With a case of this complexity, Mr. Tolimir, I'm convinced you

13     would benefit enormously from the full assistance of counsel representing

14     you.  I believe you're putting yourself at considerable disadvantage by

15     not availing yourself of the opportunity to have counsel represent you.

16             I want to stress, Mr. Tolimir, that the -- having counsel

17     represent you does not in any way signify a loss of control over your

18     Defence.  It is your Defence.  It remains your Defence.  It is simply

19     that counsel would be able to assist you with the various legal issues

20     and represent you in the various procedural matters that are going to

21     occur both pre-trial and obviously during the trial.

22             But at all times, it is for you to instruct your counsel, so

23     control remains entirely in your hands.  In addition, you would not lose

24     entirely all rights of audience.  This Trial Chamber certainly does hear

25     directly from accused on particular issues, even though you're

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 1     represented by counsel.

 2             So, as I say, I would really prefer if you didn't respond

 3     immediately to me today.  I'd like to you think about what I've said,

 4     think about it in the context of your particular case, your particular

 5     circumstances, talk to your legal advisors in whom you already clearly

 6     have considerable trust, and I'm sure that trust is well-placed; and at

 7     the next Status Conference, we can discuss the matter again.

 8             But I urge you, Mr. Tolimir, in your own interests, to give this

 9     matter consideration.

10             Do you have any comments at this time?  As I said, it's something

11     that I'd like to you think about.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Yes, I could wish do

13     comment, certainly.  I think that it is inappropriate to ask me the

14     question of my representation or to bring into question

15     self-representation.  You are here to judge on what the parties decide,

16     and I have under Rule 21(4)(d) the right to defend myself.  So I think it

17     is inappropriate for the Tribunal to impose counsel on me and eliminate

18     my legal advisors who assist me where I need assistance and who carry out

19     work in the field or here in court, in view of the fact that I'm in the

20     detention unit and do not have the freedom to see to many of these

21     problems and questions.

22             I think this is this very inappropriate and that you should bear

23     in mind my submission, the submission I filed on the subject, and we

24     discussed it at the last Status Conference as well.  I think you should

25     consider it and respond to in keeping with the Rules of Procedure and

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 1     Evidence.  I would like to say quite definitively for the record that I

 2     do not wish anybody else to represent me in this court at all.

 3             I wish to defend myself, conduct my own Defence, and to defend

 4     myself of the all the charges raised against me, because I'm best placed

 5     to know the situation I was in.  I do not wish to discuss the matter

 6     anymore, except to say what I set out in my submission and to receive

 7     your response to that submission.

 8             Thank you.

 9             JUDGE PROST:  All right, Mr. Tolimir.  We will leave the matter

10     there for the moment, but I would appreciate if you would give some

11     consideration to what I said.  But I've heard your response, and we'll

12     move on to other matters.

13             There are several pending motions, as both parties will be aware

14     of, which the Trial Chamber intends to deal with in due course.  I don't

15     intend to address them today specifically, with one exception, however,

16     and this is a matter we should discuss briefly.  I don't intend at all to

17     deal with it substantively today.  That is the -- it begins with the

18     Prosecution's submission of the 15th of the October, attaching a response

19     from the government of Serbia to the Prosecutor's request for assistance.

20             There are, I believe, two submissions from you, Mr. Tolimir, on

21     that communication from Serbia, and I believe, now I have been advised,

22     there is an third which has been filed.  That includes a CD attached to

23     it, but that I have not seen a translated version of.

24             So, as I say, I don't wish to deal with the substance of the

25     matter today.  In brief, the government of Serbia has provided a response

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 1     to request made by Prosecution, and Mr. Tolimir has raised issues

 2     regarding that response, as well as going to the question of the

 3     circumstances of his arrest substantively.

 4             Mr. Tolimir, you asked that you be given an opportunity to

 5     inspect the original of the document sent from the government of the

 6     Serbia.  That appears to me to be a is reasonable request.  I don't want

 7     to spend time in court today doing that.

 8             However, I would ask, Mr. McCloskey, I would ask you to make

 9     arrangements so that Mr. Tolimir is begin a opportunity to look at the

10     original, which I presume is feasible.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Madam President.  We are -- it's coming down

12     from Belgrade as we speak, and we have arranged with Mr. Gajic to see it

13     on Monday at 2.00, and that seems to be agreed upon by Mr. Tolimir and

14     Mr. Gajic.

15             JUDGE PROST:  Great, I'm happy to hear that.

16             I assume that the -- I was going to raise with the Prosecution

17     whether you have had access to the recording of the television programme

18     mentioned in Mr. Tolimir's submission.  I suspect that the CD -- oh, no.

19     I'm being told no.

20             I assume that you will have discussions with Mr. Gajic as well on

21     that, and Mr. Gajic I would assume will facilitate access to that

22     material.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  We got a CD from yesterday from Mr. Gajic.

24             JUDGE PROST:  Thank you very much.

25             I won't deal any further with this matter today because the

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 1     materials, as I said, have just arrived.  I only received the two

 2     submissions earlier this week; and, obviously, I want to hear from the

 3     Prosecution in response to the submissions made by Mr. Tolimir.  But I

 4     just wanted to ensure that the material relevant to this issue was

 5     flowing back and forth.

 6             So unless there are some additional comments on that topic from

 7     either party, I don't think --

 8             Mr. Tolimir, did you have anything you wish to add on this.  As I

 9     said, I certainly have your submissions which we will certainly have

10     regard to, the Trial Chamber will have regard to.  Do you have any

11     comments to make in addition?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             Yes, I do I have an additional comment.  It's not only a matter

14     of establishing whether the document that was sent through electronic

15     means to the database is an original one and is the same as the one that

16     is travelling, as the Prosecutor said, as we speak, to The Hague, we're

17     talking about two other very important facts.  That is that the minister

18     of the interior, who allegedly is sending that document to you, three

19     days after I received the document, said that I had been arrested in

20     Belgrade.

21             So these are new facts and these new facts are important for the

22     Tribunal, not only for the Prosecution but for the Tribunal as a whole.

23     You should take them as being new facts, and they deserve being dealt

24     with in the submission.  I'd like to stress that it is completely

25     inappropriate, as far as I'm concerned, to discuss whether a paper is a

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 1     forgery or not; whereas, the minister said, in a public programme, that I

 2     had been arrested in Belgrade, the minister whose document the

 3     Prosecution is referring to here and the document that I am to see on

 4     Monday or whenever.  I think that is inappropriate.

 5             I would like to say for the record that truth transcends both

 6     time and space, and it has done so in this case, too, from the moment I

 7     was arrested to the present day.  So that truth stands.  Nobody can

 8     change it, none of the parties can change it, as suits them, whether I

 9     was arrested -- saying that I was arrested in America or Serbia.  I was

10     arrested in Serbia, so justice is eternal and unchangeable.

11             Now whether we receive one document which is like this or that, I

12     don't care about that.  I know was arrested in Belgrade in Serbia, and

13     this Court is there to decide upon that matter.

14             I'd like to say for the record that, as I am a believer, I am

15     sure that my case will be tried by a higher court, the court of God, not

16     a worldly court, because the facts are indisputable, the truth is

17     indisputable.  The person who is sending you the document, I claim, as

18     does my Defence, is that the document was not legally compiled in the

19     first place.

20             Thank you.

21             JUDGE PROST:  Yes, Mr. Tolimir.  Thank you.

22             As I said, we're taking this step by step.  I certainly

23     appreciate that you have made submissions which go not just to the

24     authenticity, or not, of the communication from the government of Serbia,

25     but you are also challenging the circumstances with respect to your

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 1     arrest and are advancing this position as a new fact that you wish the

 2     Chamber to take into consideration.

 3             So, I am well aware of the full nature of the submission that you

 4     are making; and as I said, in due course we will give consideration to

 5     all of these points.  For the moment today, I simply wanted to make sure

 6     that all relevant material was going to be available to both parties, and

 7     then when we will hear the relevant submissions and the Trial Chamber

 8     will consider the matter further.

 9             So I will leave that particular issue there for today.

10             As I say, I won't touch on any other of the pending motions.  You

11     will receive written comment on those eventually.

12             I'm going to move now to some issues, Mr. Tolimir, relating to

13     your detention conditions and your health.  These are all issues that I'm

14     following up on from matters raised at the prior Status Conference and,

15     as well, which have been the subject of the written submissions on your

16     part.

17             The first is that - and I think we can clear this very quickly -

18     we had discussed the issue of having made available to you space in the

19     detention unit for your documents and work, and I have been informed that

20     that space has been provided and that you are making use of it.

21             I just wanted to confirm that, Mr. Tolimir, that you have

22     received the space and are making use of it.  I see you nodding, so we

23     don't need to consider that further.  It appears to be resolved.

24             Going to move to two other issues, however, which also relate

25     directly to conditions of accident and health.  For parts of this, I am

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 1     going to need to go in and out of private session.

 2             So I will indicate, Madam Registrar, when I need to do so.  For

 3     the moment, we can remain in open session.

 4             I want to premise my remarks in this area by reiterating that the

 5     regulation of matters of this nature, matters of the conditions of

 6     detention and the monitoring of health issues, is the primary

 7     responsibility of the officials of the UNDU and the Registry.  Due

 8     deference must be shown by those dealing with the day-to-day management

 9     of the detention unit and have the requisite expertise and knowledge to

10     best address these conditions of detention and health.  I fully recognise

11     that, and I am fully cognizant of that rule and responsibility resting

12     with the Registry and the detention unit.

13             However, this should not be misconstrued so as to consider that

14     the Pre-Trial Judge and the Trial Chamber has not role in these matters.

15     Clearly, the fact that the rules mandate that we raise this issues at the

16     Status Conference is clear evidence that we have a role to play.

17             In any event, this Trial Chamber is very interested and concerned

18     in all matters related to the conditions of detention and to the health

19     and well-being of the accused, and do we have an important oversight role

20     in our view.

21             So, with that in mind, I'm going to move the two specific issues,

22     starting with first the question that was raised by you, Mr. Tolimir, on

23     the monitoring of your cell and issues of interruption of your sleep as a

24     result.

25             Madam Registrar, could we go into private session, please.

Page 219

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 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE PROST:  In these circumstances as described, the Trial

12     Chamber will not intervene in relation to the monitoring measures

13     employed with respect to your cell, Mr. Tolimir.  We have heard from the

14     responsible officials who are on-site, who have the requisite knowledge

15     and training, and we rely on their assessment and have confidence in

16     their assessment in this matter as to what is necessary and appropriate

17     in terms of monitoring your condition.

18             I will only, ask as I did previously, that the officials at the

19     detention unit continue to strive to carry out the monitoring in a manner

20     which is as non-disruptive as possible, particularly during the night;

21     and, of course, you can continue to bring any particular problems or

22     occurrences to the attention of the relevant officials.

23             I'm going to go through both issues, Mr. Tolimir, before I give

24     the floor over to you.

25             The second issue relating to detention, and I am extremely

Page 221

 1     disappointed that I actually have to deal with this, again, in court, and

 2     it relates to access to specific teas which you have outlined in both a

 3     written an oral submissions, Mr. Tolimir, as being important to you for

 4     health reasons.  I was hoping the matter could have been resolved through

 5     decisions, but it appears that is not the case.

 6             So, on this issue, I also have made inquiries and ask that

 7     inquiries be made at the UNDU.

 8             Madam Registrar, can we go back into private session, please.

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Page 223

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE PROST:  In dealing with this issue, I need to be satisfied

 4     that the medical officer at the detention unit has considered this matter

 5     in terms of medical health issue that the accused has raised in his

 6     request for this material for that particular purpose.  I need to know

 7     that he or she has discussed these points with you, Mr. Tolimir, has

 8     considered any recommendations from other physicians on the use of these

 9     teas, and that then has consideration to possible benefits weighed

10     against what other medical relevant considerations he or she appropriate.

11             I would also like to know why initially it was considered

12     acceptable for the tea to be provided to you, Mr. Tolimir, by your wife

13     subject to inspection and, subsequently, that practice was prohibited.

14             So, in short, unless the logistical barriers can be overcome and

15     can you be given access to the detention unit to these teas, I want to

16     hear from the medical officer as to his consideration of this issue on a

17     specific basis, not just in a general way.

18             So I would ask, Madam Registrar, that this be communicated,

19     including the portions that were mentioned in private session, so that I

20     can receive a response from the detention unit on -- and the medical unit

21     on this particular issue.

22             So that, Mr. Tolimir, is where I have come to, in terms of the

23     points you have brought to my attention.  Do you wish to raise any other

24     matters?  I don't think we can go further on either of those questions

25     today, but do you have any other matters that you wish to bring to my

Page 224

 1     attention on the issue of health or conditions of detention, and I note

 2     we are in open session, as is your preference.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             I'll respond briefly to the questions you raised of why I was

 5     allowed them first and then not allowed them afterwards.

 6             You are to make a decision on the submission --

 7             JUDGE PROST:  Mr. Tolimir, just to clarify, that question is

 8     actually aimed at the detention unit.  I want them to provide me with an

 9     explanation.  You can certainly comment on it, but those questions I'm

10     putting to the detention unit.  I want them to report back to me on that,

11     but you can certainly provide me with your comments, but be clear that

12     I'm asking them provide an explanation as well.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will give you an

14     answer to that question of yours to you straight away at this Status

15     Conference.

16             I came here in 2007 when I was kidnapped, and my blood pressure

17     220 over 120, so my systolic was 220, my diastolic was 120.  When I left

18     hospital, I treated myself with prayers with a priests, and the priest

19     came to the UN premises.  And after that, my blood pressure returned to

20     levels which did not need medication to be dealt with.

21             I was asked to be allowed to drink the teas that I had drunk for

22     20 years.  I had a kidney operation.  My kidneys had been impaired, two

23     ribs have been extracted.  And as a result of the surgery, my blood

24     pressure is high, and I drink Uvae tea.  This is a tea that is readily

25     available all other Yugoslavia.  You can also buy it in a chemist's shop.

Page 225

 1     So have I been drinking the Uvae tea for 30 years, and I have been

 2     keeping my blood pressure in check, but as the Bearberry tea is not

 3     working, then I had to resort to this tea.

 4             My wife -- when I brought my pressure to the normal level 120/80,

 5     the commander of the detention unit told me in my presence and my wife's

 6     presence that the Registry would not allow me to drink the tea.  180/80.

 7             So allow me, it would -- it would have been better for them to

 8     help me than to hinder me.

 9             JUDGE PROST:  Mr. Tolimir, I am sorry to interrupt you, but you

10     appear to be quite upset here, and I don't want you -- I mean, perhaps

11     you need a few minutes to take a break.  Would you like to do that?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't need a break.  I will speak

13     more calmly, but please listen to me.

14             They forbid that tea.  And in August, last year, an extraordinary

15     Status Conference was organised when you were on holiday where an

16     extraordinary Pre-Trial Judge was named to decide upon my health

17     situation.  I didn't accept that Status Conference.  Then they ordered

18     that I be placed in hospital and doctors, specialists examined me; and

19     neuro-surgeons examined and their conclusion that there was no reason for

20     me to be in hospital any longer, that it was sufficient for me to drink

21     those teas.

22             But the management didn't listen to the decision made by the

23     Registry and forbade my wife to bring plea the tea anymore, and so I'm

24     living without teas -- this tea and without the medicaments, and I'd like

25     you to bear that in mind.  Teas were prescribed to me and they are --

Page 226

 1             JUDGE PROST:  Because I don't want you to get here, I do

 2     understand what you're submitting; and, in fact, that is the whole basis

 3     of what I just related, is that I do understand that you have raised

 4     these concerns and that is why I'm asking the medical unit to look into

 5     the matter further.

 6             You can be assured I understand the submissions you have made and

 7     the background to this issue, and I know it is significant to you and

 8     that is why I have asked that that the medical unit look into this matter

 9     further.  So you can be assured that I am following up on the issue that

10     you have raised, okay?  I am well aware of the written submissions.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you for your understanding.

12             JUDGE PROST:  That will be followed up.

13             Are there other matters or is there anything else that you want

14     to bring it my attention.  That matter will be followed up.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you for your understanding,

16     for solving that question.  Please bear in mind that rules governing the

17     detention unit allows detainees to use different teas, religious customs,

18     and so on.  So, then, you can't forbid an Englishman to drink tea, for

19     example, so I'd like to ask to you bring in a reasonable decision as the

20     Chamber.

21             Thank you.

22             Now I'd like to respond to the other matter you raised, and that

23     is the question of the supervision and monitoring of my cell.  What I am

24     asking you is this --

25             JUDGE PROST:  Mr. Tolimir, I will hear from you on this.  I want

Page 227

 1     to you keep in mind that I investigated this matter, and, as indicated,

 2     it is very a matter within the purview of the UNDU, of the detention unit

 3     and the authorities there.  If you want to make an additional point,

 4     that's fine; but I have given consideration to the points you have made

 5     previously.

 6             But, please go ahead, bearing that in mind.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not forgetting that, but I

 8     should like to ask you to create conditions for me to be able work

 9     normally.  I would like to say, for the transcript, and I would like to

10     say it to you, as the Judge, that every minutes, during the day and

11     during the night, that is to say, 24 hours around the clock, I am woken

12     up by these physical monitoring measures, to see whether I'm alive or

13     not.

14             They need to have the light switched on in order to do that, and

15     the window has to be open on the doors.  They have to knock on the window

16     and the door to wake me up so that I give some signs ever life;

17     otherwise, there's no reason for their monitoring me if they don't me

18     move.  So they have make a noise to wake me up so that they get a gesture

19     from me or some movement from me, which means that I just have 30 minutes

20     of uninterrupted sleep, and I am to defend myself.

21             How am I going able to study all the material and to work here,

22     to be at the Status Conferences, if I'm woken up every half-hour during

23     the day and during the night?  If I go to the bathroom, then I'm being

24     monitored.  If I am sleeping, I am being monitored.  So you must bear

25     that in mind.

Page 228

 1             The video cameras have a light monitoring, visual monitoring, and

 2     so on; and round the clock, there are stereo sounds and amplification.

 3     They can hear every movement I make, they can hear my heartbeat, so I

 4     don't really know why they wake me up.  What I'm asking is to be allowed

 5     to have at least six hours of uninterrupted sleep, and I would like you

 6     to understand that because these are drastic draconian measures.

 7             Whenever I need to write a submission or anything like that, a

 8     new doctor is brought in who is not from the detention unit, he is not a

 9     specialist.  He just appears on an occasion when a statement needs to be

10     written to you for a Status Conference, and then he just writes down what

11     he thinks he should.  Then you get that, but I don't see what he has

12     written.  He is not a specialist, and he is just there to write down what

13     measures they want to apply to me and to have you informed about.

14             But I don't know what measures require me to be woken up every

15     half-hour.  So if I hear a noise, if they make a noise to wake me up and

16     to see if I am reacting, that wakes me up.  So what I am asking you is if

17     you can help me have the necessary conditions for sleep.  They can leave

18     the camera.  I don't mind a camera.  If they need it a camera, they can

19     have a camera working around the clock.  The camera doesn't wake me up,

20     so it is better for me to have video surveillance than have them wake mea

21     up and monitor me that way.

22             I'm not --

23             JUDGE PROST:  [Previous translation continues] ...

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not taking medicine, so what

25     they have to do is to establish that I am in fact alive.

Page 229

 1             JUDGE PROST:  I have your submissions on this.  I -- we've had

 2     them both in writing and orally.  As I say, the matter has been looked

 3     at, and I would again, as I have done, encourage the detention unit, the

 4     medical office, to discuss this matter with you and to try and carry out

 5     what they consider to be necessary, in the least disruptive way as

 6     possible.

 7             So I think we have to leave it at that today.  Your comments are

 8     all on the record, and, again, I would ask the relevant officials to

 9     discuss them with you further.  Okay, Mr. Tolimir?  We have your detailed

10     the submissions on the point, and they are understood.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I agree to anything that will allow

12     me to have six hours of uninterrupted sleep and rest.  If you consider

13     that I don't need six hours of sleep and rest and should be in court to

14     defend myself and you want these Draconian measures to continue, then you

15     could do so.  I am praying to God, and I hope that Jesus Christ will

16     resolve these issues, but thank you.

17             JUDGE PROST:  Thank you, Mr. Tolimir.

18             All right.  That brings to a conclusion all the matters that I

19     had for discussion today.

20             Mr. McCloskey, is there anything further from the Prosecution at

21     this time?

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, Madam President.

23             JUDGE PROST:  Thank you.

24             Mr. Tolimir, any other issues that you wish to bring to my

25     attention before we adjourn?

Page 230

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

 2             What always happens prior to a Status Conference is that

 3     documents are provided to me by the Registry which haven't been

 4     translated.  On the eve of a Status Conference.  For example, I still

 5     have not received the translation of your instructions that this Status

 6     Conference be held in the Serbian language, whereas we're here at the

 7     Status Conference.  So what more can I say?  I don't know whether this is

 8     intentional, whether they're lagging behind intentionally, or whether

 9     they have so much work to do that I'm not able to be provided with a

10     single document in the Serbian language before the Status Conference

11     dealing with matters that are going to be discussed at the Status

12     Conference.

13             So that's a general comment that I'd like to make, and a general

14     criticism.  So please may the Registry provide me with documents in a

15     language I understand so that I can read them and discuss them, which

16     means that they need to be translated and to give to priority to those

17     documents for me, in view of the fact that I am going to defend myself or

18     to allow me to use the services of one of the translators of the

19     Tribunal, because a translator can tell me that this is going to happen

20     at such-and-such a time, on such-and-such a date.  He can read it out to

21     me, and on all other urgent matters where you want my response, not for

22     me to have to wait for one month to have something translated, whereas

23     Article 21(4)(F) of the Statute provides that somebody who defends

24     himself be given free assistance of an interpreter if he cannot

25     understand or speak the language used in the international Tribunal.

Page 231

 1             Thank you.

 2             JUDGE PROST:  Thank you, Mr. Tolimir.  I'm quite certain if there

 3     had been difficulties providing you with the translation that it is due

 4     to your latter point, which is the considerable amount of material that

 5     the Registry has to deal with, so -- but I will discuss that with the

 6     Registry and try and ensure that you do get, for example, notification of

 7     Status Conference, that material, as soon as possible in a translated

 8     form.

 9             I take it, then, that there are no additional issues for us to

10     discuss today.  So, as I mentioned, we have now some filing deadlines.

11     We will have more after the next Status Conference.  But for today, I

12     wish everyone a good evening, and we are adjourned.

13                           --- Whereupon the Status Conference adjourned

14                           at 3.33 p.m.