1 Thursday, 25 June, 2009
2 [Status Conference]
3 [Open session]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.29 p.m.
6 JUDGE PROST: Good afternoon to everyone.
7 Registrar, could you call the case, please.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honour. Good afternoon
9 everyone in and around the courtroom. This is case number IT-05-88/2-I,
10 the Prosecutor versus Zdravko Tolimir.
11 JUDGE PROST: Thank you very much.
12 Mr. Tolimir, are you hearing the interpretation in a language to
13 which you understand?
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please.
15 JUDGE PROST: Are you hearing me now, Mr. Tolimir? Thank you.
16 If you have any difficulties in hearing at any point in time, please let
17 me know.
18 All right. For the appearances I note Mr. McCloskey and
19 Ms. Stewart for the Prosecution. Mr. Tolimir is self-represented, but I
20 note that Mr. Gajic is present in the courtroom who is one of his legal
21 advisors. Welcome to everyone.
22 This is the 8th Status Conference in this case. The last being
23 held -- I note the arrival of Mr. Thayer and Mr. Vanderpuye for the
25 This is the 8th Status Conference. And, obviously, I think we
1 are all well aware of the purposes of the conference as a result, which
2 basically to have exchanges on trial preparation and to review any issues
3 regarding conditions for the accused.
4 I think the focus of discussion this afternoon is really on the
5 final trial preparations. I do not intend today to set any date for the
6 pretrial conference, but I do hope to hear from the parties on that issue
7 in just a moment, but first, I think logically we should discuss some of
8 the outstanding filings because that will ultimately impact on trial
10 Before I hear from the parties on the scheduling of the --
11 essentially the last filings which are the Defence pre-trial brief and
12 any notices of special defences, I should note, because I was curious as
13 to why I had not received this and perhaps the Prosecution is as well,
14 but on the 18th of March, the Prosecution filed a motion under Rule 92
15 quater for the admission of three statements, and there has been no
16 response filed to that motion by Mr. Tolimir. But I now understand
17 that's because he has not received a translated version of the 92 quater
18 motion. I've been advised that that was simply due to a technical error,
19 and we are anticipating you will receive that translation mid-week next
20 week by the 1st of July, or in that time-period.
21 So you'll have to keep that in mind. I'm sure you are aware of
22 the motion, but the filing dead-lines will run from when you receive,
23 Mr. Tolimir, the translated version of that motion.
24 So with that having been said, Mr. Tolimir, I have certainly
25 reviewed the notification which you filed regarding your views on the
1 trial scheduling, and I certainly have that in mind, but with regard to
2 the -- specifically the filing of the pre-trial brief and any notices of
3 special defence, is there anything else that you wanted to bring to my
4 attention regarding that dead-line?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, I'd like to greet
6 everybody here. God bless you all. I want to say that I presented all
7 my views in the -- in my notifications. I don't think that we should
8 lose time discussing that at the status conference. I think that these
9 are the minimum dead-lines that we should like to see go through, so
10 thank you.
11 JUDGE PROST: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Tolimir. Appreciate that.
12 Mr. McCloskey, do you have any comments regarding, just this
13 point in time, specifically the question of the filing dead-lines for the
14 pre-trial brief and any pretrial defence brief and any special notices of
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, no comments on that. I think we are fine.
17 JUDGE PROST: Thank you.
18 Well, Mr. Tolimir, I think what I will do for the moment is I'm
19 going to take into consideration the submissions that you have made, and
20 I will proceed with a Scheduling Order shortly after the conference that
21 will set down those dead-lines, but I should make clear to you that I
22 understand the position you have advanced as to the timing of matters,
23 and the multitude of material and the complexity of the case.
24 I'm still of the view, however, that this case should be ready
25 for trial sometime in September. I'm not in a position to set any
1 pre-trial conference date as I indicated, nor am I going to set the
2 specific timings at the moment. But you should be aware that that
3 continues to be my view, and the dead-lines will be set according to that
5 Mr. McCloskey.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry, Madam President. If I could, my
7 response to your question was in particularly to the basic filing
8 dead-lines of pre-trial brief. I would like to make just a brief
9 submission on the -- Mr. Tolimir's suggestion about November as a date
10 for pre-trial, if I could.
11 JUDGE PROST: Yes, go ahead.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: We have reviewed that. We've read it. It
13 appears to us that a fair amount of thought went into it, and we agree
14 that we have given him quite a bit of material and that appears to be
15 fair to us, given that he is represented by himself. But I also tell
16 that you I have more selfish motives in mind as well. And that is that,
17 as you know, we are in the midst of the -- well, we are hoping the end of
18 the Popovic et al trial. And as we have been trying to work on our trial
19 brief, it's just -- it's become clear to the Prosecution we are not
20 getting where we need to get in the trial brief. We are being distracted
21 on things that are clearly important. Witnesses coming, other items, and
22 we are just -- we know that the Trial Chamber has expected us to provide
23 a certain kind of product. We expect ourselves to be able to provide you
24 with a certain kind of product, and we are not going to be able to
25 provide you with a kind of product we want to in that other case.
1 So we are going to be filing a motion in that other case. And as
2 you also know, the current dead-lines for closing arguments are September
3 in that other case. And we would like to have some ability to not only
4 rest but then get ready for a trial, and it turns out that
5 General Tolimir's views on that matter actually correspond to our views
6 for all the reasons I've said. But I think that is it in a nutshell, and
7 we'll be filing something in the other case.
8 JUDGE PROST: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey. I'll be sure to pass
9 that message along to the other Trial Chamber, which in this instance
10 happens to be the same Trial Chamber.
11 Mr. Tolimir, in light of Mr. McCloskey's comments and in
12 fairness, I did sort of somewhat jump the gun so that I would appreciate
13 hearing your comments on the trial scheduling as well and any response
14 you have in relation to Mr. McCloskey's submissions.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to thank Mr. McCloskey for
16 his understanding. And I'd like to say that we, too, will be able at the
17 end of September to file our pre-trial brief because the Prosecution
18 pre-trial brief was over 130 pages, so please bear that in mind. And
19 also I think one has to show understanding towards him because he is
20 working in a -- on a case that is more extensive than this particular
21 case, so I'm sure he does need more time. Thank you.
22 JUDGE PROST: Thank you, Mr. Tolimir. And thank you both. As I
23 said, I remain -- I have, as you are aware, and the Trial Chamber has a
24 number of factors that we have to balance here in considering the timing
25 of the start of the trial in this case, and as well the last filing. But
1 I do appreciate the submissions. I appreciate the fact, particularly,
2 Mr. Tolimir, that you took the time to set out clearly in writing your
3 considerations on this point, and I've now heard from the Prosecution as
5 So I think it is -- it would be wiser for me to take all of those
6 submissions back, and the Trial Chamber will have a discussion on the
7 issue more fully. And I will revert or we will revert with a
8 Scheduling Order that will cover the relevant matters in due course.
9 So we will leave the actual timing, and I will reflect on the
10 submissions that have been made along with the other factors, of course,
11 that have to be considered.
12 Moving then to a couple of other matters. I wondered, following
13 up from our last discussion, if we've had any further progress, I know
14 there has been a lot of work on the table on both sides since the
15 conference in February regarding the various motions. But has there been
16 any progress on the question of agreed facts? Perhaps I could hear from
17 you first, Mr. McCloskey.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, there hasn't. And having reviewed briefly
19 the 92 bis and the 94 bis filings where General is virtually challenging
20 everything and has not provided any specific response to us about our
21 offer of agreed facts, we have not endeavoured to go further. Though, of
22 course, Mr. Gajic is here, and we will be able to talk about it. We are
23 always ready to meet the General, if he would so agree. He has not
24 agreed to meet with us yet, but we are always open to that either here or
25 at the Detention Centre.
1 JUDGE PROST: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.
2 Mr. Tolimir, do you have any comments on the question of agreed
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. We tried to respond to
5 the Prosecution's request, and I think that you also know the response we
6 gave. We presented all the views and all the elements which are relevant
7 and necessary for this to be adjust and fair trial.
8 You will, of course, take the final decision and make the ruling.
9 I don't want either party to do that, whether it be the Prosecution or
10 us. Thank you.
11 JUDGE PROST: Well, thank you, Mr. Tolimir. I'm perhaps an
12 endless optimist, but I'm not yet prepared to give up the subject matter.
13 The last time we discussed this, there was at least discussion of the
14 fact that the question of agreed facts is probably best dealt with once
15 there was a better understanding of the case and the material. And
16 Mr. Tolimir, you are still working on responses to the Prosecution's
17 motions and still reviewing material. So I'm going to continue to invite
18 you to consider, as part of the exercise, those facts which really are
19 not matters that need to be litigated in this particular trial. Those
20 facts which the two parties are in agreement on, I'm going to encourage
21 you to once again think about discussing those. I appreciate the point
22 you have made, Mr. Tolimir. Of course there is a trial process, of
23 course it must adjudicate on the key issues in this case, but that does
24 not require that every single fact, in particular matters on which the
25 two parties are in agreement. And of course the Trial Chamber always has
1 discretion as to what it will accept in terms of any agreed facts. So
2 I'm going to once again encourage you to have a discussion about any
3 potential areas where we can try and resolve some facts and avoid the
4 necessity of calling evidence when in fact the parties are in agreement.
5 Again, the Trial Chamber having the ultimate discretion, but it would be
6 certainly helpful to try and focus the proceedings.
7 So again, if you can pursue that discussion, and we will see if
8 we can make at least some progress on some facts in that regard. And
9 we'll see if that is at all possible.
10 Okay. Mr. McCloskey.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just as I have the General here, I would invite
12 him to consider the facts specifically related to the 28th Division and
13 their policies and objects, their attacks on the Serbian population, the
14 Serbian army positions, their policies, to tie down Serbian troops. We
15 agree with much of that, and it would save quite a bit of court time if
16 we can agree to some of those issues. There are some agreed facts in the
17 Popovic case regarding the 28th Division that I would call your attention
18 to, and I would very much like to agree on those facts in particular
19 because that would save a lot of trial time, and you will find you are
20 not going to have major disagreements with us on much of that.
21 JUDGE PROST: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey. That, I think, is a
22 helpful example, Mr. Tolimir, that there may well be facts, as I say, in
23 which you and the Prosecution are simply in agreement. And if those can
24 be agreed to, it will be of advantage to everyone, yourself, the
25 Prosecution, and the Trial Chamber. So I'm not asking for any views or
1 opinions on particular facts today. But simply again I'm inviting you to
2 consider those aspects of the case where both the Prosecution and you are
3 in agreement and consider discussing those at least with the Prosecution.
4 All right. I'll leave that matter with you, Mr. Tolimir.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam President. I'd
6 just like to state my views without going into arguments. The facts that
7 Mr. McCloskey has referred to about the 28th Division in fact, they were
8 adjudicated in the case of Naser Oric. He was freed, so the Tribunal
9 said everything it had to say about those facts. And I would like you to
10 take into consideration what I set out in my written filing. Thank you.
11 JUDGE PROST: Thank you, Mr. Tolimir. And, yes, you can be
12 assured that the Trial Chamber has regard to the points that you are
13 making in your filings, but again, just bear in mind that there is still
14 scope here in my view, for agreement that could speed along in a fair way
15 these proceedings and trial preparations.
16 I'm going to move then, I'm not going to deal with any of the
17 pending motions, but I am aware that there are certain motions pending
18 for access to evidence and as well as other matters, and the Trial
19 Chamber will be issuing decisions in due course on those. And obviously
20 once we have all the filings with respect to the applications under
21 92 bis, 92 ter, 92 quater, and adjudicated facts, we will be rendering
22 decisions on those motions as well.
23 I'm going to move, then, really to for my agenda which is the
24 last item, is simply to inquire with you, Mr. Tolimir, about any health
25 issues or conditions of detention issues. As is normal, Mr. Tolimir, you
1 generally don't wish to discuss these in private session. But, as
2 normal, I offer to you if you do wish to -- for us to go into private
3 session to discuss anything relating to your personal matters, I will
4 certainly do that. But if your preference is to remain in public
5 session, that is what we will do. And I'm taking it that you would
6 prefer to remain in public session; is that correct?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Yes, that is correct.
8 I wish to state everything publicly in open session. I don't wish to say
9 anything in private session, and I wish everything to move ahead
10 smoothly. Thank you.
11 JUDGE PROST: Thank you, Mr. Tolimir. Then is there any issue
12 you wish to raise with me? I do have a filing -- well, perhaps I'll just
13 leave it at the question of, Do you have anything you wish to raise
14 regarding your conditions of detention or regarding your health? Any
15 matters you want to bring to my attention.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam President. I wish
17 to state, first of all, or rather to thank you and to ask you that as
18 the Pre-Trial Judge, you look into how I'm being deprived of sleep for
19 the past two years. And I've been deprived of sleep every half-hour. In
20 48 hours I'm being woken up because the security guards look into my
21 cell, and I have to show a reaction to show that I am alive. So they
22 keep waking me up and then leave my cell. I think that that is totally
23 unacceptable, so I'd like to have a written ruling from you as the
24 Pre-Trial Judge whether that is permitted or not, to apply these kinds --
25 the methods and deprive me of sleep, or whether this was a decision made
1 by the president of this Tribunal, or perhaps the Registrar, or the head
2 of the Detention Unit or the United Nations. I want to know who made
3 that decision because I can't come into trial if I haven't had some
4 proper sleep. Everybody knows that. Everybody knows that you need to
5 have a certain amount of sleep. If your body is going to function
6 properly. So I can't go ahead with the trial unless I'm allowed to
7 sleep, and I should be given a little time to rest, as well as
8 Mr. McCloskey just said he needs time -- or he said that I need time to
9 rest, because it's human physiology. It's what the body needs, and I
10 have been deprived of all that.
11 And also I represent myself. So these kinds of methods were not
12 even applied in concentration camps towards prisoners who didn't have to
13 defend themselves at trial, so I should like to ask you to take this into
14 serious consideration to investigate the matter. And I raise this issue
15 at every status conference that we've had, this deprivation of sleep.
16 Nobody wants to respond and ask why, but my soul is suffering, not only
17 my body, it is my soul is suffering too. It is a victim, because I'm
18 being woken up every half an hour. When they knock, they want me to
19 react so that they know whether I am alive or not. So I think that I
20 should be given a minimum time for my body to be able to rest up before I
21 can come into the courtroom. Thank you.
22 JUDGE PROST: Thank you, Mr. Tolimir. Now, I have received
23 information on this issue which was filed, however, by the Registry
24 confidentially and ex parte, however, I'm determining that it was done so
25 because it contains and relates to personal information regarding your
1 health and monitoring measures in place related thereto. And given that
2 you have expressly indicated you wish those matters discussed publicly,
3 I'm going to discuss the information in public session because of your
4 specific waiver of the right to have it in private session because
5 there's no other reason for that.
6 So basically, Mr. Tolimir, after the last Status Conference where
7 we previously discussed the issue of your being interrupted during the
8 night and the effect you felt that was having on your condition, I
9 certainly took that matter seriously and raised it with the Registry and
10 the officials at the Detention Unit. I'm advised that the medical
11 officer has determined that for your health and for your own protection,
12 there does need to be monitoring of you. And this Trial Chamber is
13 certainly not going to begin to second guess the medical opinions being
14 provided at the UNDU. We accept that the medical officer is certainly
15 far more knowledgeable and in a better position to assess those
17 However, I did seek from them to pursue any possible means for
18 this monitoring to be carried out without disruption, and I'm advised
19 that they have proposed to you an alternative to the manual viewing,
20 which is the use of medical monitoring by way of a device that can do so
21 in a technical way which will not require the interruptions. However, it
22 appears that you may have some difficulty with that particular proposal.
23 I'm happy to hear from you on the point, but at the end of the
24 day, Mr. Tolimir, I'm satisfied, particularly with the option that's been
25 provided to you that the UNDU is giving you the opportunity by way of the
1 device to have your health monitored over the evening hours, and at the
2 same time to do so with minimum of disruption, and in fact no disruption.
3 And then it falls to you to decide which of those options you want to
5 But do you have any comments on that, Mr. Tolimir? Because I do
6 understand the point you raised last time about the interruptions, but
7 there is this additional development.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam President. I'll
9 just say a sentence or two about what you said in the first part of what
10 you were saying, that the doctor said that I should be monitored.
11 There's no need for that decision because he never actually examined me,
12 nor do I have any health problems, that's the first point. And when I
13 talked to the doctor, he says the Registrar wants to know when you are
14 going to die, and I said that at the previous status conference. And
15 that is morbid; I'll die when God so declares, as will we all. So I
16 don't think that's a reason the doctor can tell you anything he likes,
17 but that is what he told me. I haven't been using any medicines for two
18 years now; I'm living quite normally; I have no health problems; I don't
19 see why I should be monitored in that way. They are taking sleep away
20 from me, not depriving me, they are just seizing it and taking it away
21 from me. Waking me up every half-hour, so please bear that in mind.
22 Secondly, the doctor did offer they attach a low-frequency device
23 which emits low-frequency signals, so that he should know at all times
24 where I am and so that he should have all the parameters which that
25 device provides about my body and its functions. However, when I asked
1 him about his experience about this device, he says that he has had no
2 experience with it and that it is only Vietnamese veterans of war who had
3 this device attached to them so that their bosses can know where they
4 are. And I know that that device is called by those veterans, the
5 black box or Satan's device. And I said that with the New Testament and
6 with the Bible and Article 13 or Chapter 13, it says that people will be
7 stamped somewhere on their bodies or on their arms.
8 I said that the New Testament Jesus Christ, the Bible forbids me
9 under Chapter 14 to be stamped in this way. It say that Christians
10 should not bear any stamps on their bodies or on their foreheads or on
11 their arms. And I said that to them, and I'm telling you now, perhaps
12 somebody would want to stamp you. But God has told us how we should live
13 and that no stamps should be placed on our bodies, and this is to be
14 found in Chapter 13. And then in Chapter 14, he says that Christians
15 should not bear this stamp. And I think that you should respect that.
16 If you look at the Bible and if you look at the New Testament and when we
17 are hear and speak on oath, we take an oath on the Bible, so that is the
18 basis for all laws, both in domestic courts and international courts. So
19 if that is applied everywhere in the world, why is the exception made, as
20 far as I'm concerned? So I don't want to wear this Satanic necklace or
21 the black box, as they call it, when I have no medical problems. And in
22 fact they have made my health worse by depriving me of sleep and waking
23 me up every half-hour. You try and be subjected to that kind of regime
24 for two years to be woken up every 30 minutes. I don't know, I really
25 don't know. All I can say is please come up with a reasonable solution,
1 if you can, as the Judge.
2 Now, as far as the doctor is concerned, why don't other doctors
3 test his opinions and test the measures that he has proposed that be
4 applied to me. I don't know why he is making that proposal, he just said
5 well, the Registrar wants to know when you are going to die. Well, I'm
6 going to die when God decides that I shall die. Who whose decision is
7 it? It's not up to the doctor to impose these Draconian measures. Worse
8 measures or measures like that have not even be been applied in
9 concentration camps, so please bear that in mind. This is international
10 Tribunal in the 21st century after all. Thank you.
11 JUDGE PROST: Mr. McCloskey.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't want to complicate this issue,
13 Madam President, though this is a problem that the Prosecution has had to
14 deal with actually several times with witnesses. We have -- it has been
15 offered to us informally that, perhaps, a video monitor could be put in.
16 So I don't know what the General thinks of that, but we have had
17 witnesses that the identical thing happens to them. Every 30 minutes,
18 they are woken up with the banging of the window opening, and it's
19 extremely difficult on them physically. And we've seen them over the
20 days actually become more and more tired. But they have offered us the
21 video for the next witness that is going to be here for another case, so
22 I don't know if that's something the General would consider. Of course
23 it was an informal offer, but it's something else.
24 JUDGE PROST: Thank you.
25 Well, I can assure you, both of you, that these various options
1 and considerations are matters that I have raised with the Registry. As
2 I said initially, the Trial Chamber is not going to replace or put itself
3 in the place of the medical officials who are dealing with the issue
4 knowledgeable about the medical side of the issue, and who are making the
5 decisions as to what is necessary or not. What we are prepared to do is
6 to encourage options which are the least invasive and of least
7 disturbance to you, Mr. Tolimir.
8 I will again ask the UNDU medical officer and the authorities
9 there to discuss this matter with you. If what you are saying,
10 Mr. Tolimir, is that you'd like a second opinion regarding the medical
11 views, you can certainly discuss and raise that with the medical officer
12 at the UNDU. I'm not ordering that, but I'm simply saying that it would
13 be helpful if again the medical authorities could discuss the matter with
15 I believe I understand what you've said and the concerns you have
16 about the particular proposal that has been made for use of the device,
17 and you will again have to discuss that with the medical authorities.
18 That is an option that has been given to you. You don't wish to pursue
19 that option, then we would have to look again at alternatives, if they
20 are possible. But for the moment, I'm satisfied that the UNDU has done
21 the best they can to try and approach this issue in the least disruptive
22 manner that they can.
23 So essentially I will refer it back to UNDU to discuss perhaps
24 the alternative raised by Mr. McCloskey, although, I believe that they
25 have some concerns about that approach in this particular instance, but
1 certainly they can consider that and as well speak to you again,
2 Mr. Tolimir. They have your views as to your opinion on your medical
3 state, but they will be the ones who will have to determine what's
4 appropriate medically for you in terms of your treatment. So I will ask
5 that once again the matter be discussed with you, and the Registrar
6 continue as he and the staff at the UNDU have done so far to try and find
7 a solution to the problem.
8 But I believe that's as far as we can go with the issue today. I
9 trust that the Registry will continue to keep me updated on the issue as
10 it is something the Trial Chamber and I take very seriously, Mr. Tolimir.
11 There were no other issue that I wanted to raise particularly
12 this afternoon. But are there any other issues that the parties wish to
13 bring to my attention? Mr. Tolimir? Thank you.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam President. You
15 said that I am reluctant to have this device on me. I'm reluctant to
16 have any device emitting signals into my brain, and that is what this
17 device does to the victim wearing it. And through these waves you can
18 effect neurolinguistic programming of a person. With these signals you
19 can provoke any reaction from your victim that you wish to achieve. I
20 asked the medical officer to explain to me how this device works. He
21 said he didn't know, he had to ask a technician to come over and explain
22 it. What kind of a medical officer is he, if he doesn't know how this
23 device operates? So I am not refusing this; I'm only rejecting the
24 possibility to have any signals that will affect my psychological
1 As for the cameras in my cells, there have always been cameras in
2 my cells. I don't know why they put it there in the first place, and
3 this decision was taken by a GP. It is possible that a GP can dictate to
4 you or the president of the Tribunal what you should do? My desire is to
5 live as long as I wish. I've been living for the last two years without
6 this medical officer who has imposed such a Draconian punishment on me,
7 unheard of even during the Second World War. He is depriving me totally
8 of sleep, and he has no right to do that. I hope you agree with that,
9 and I would kindly ask you to consider this issue from both the
10 humanitarian aspect and from the possibility of a person to stand trial
11 and participate in a trial without sleep.
12 As I told you, I have been woken up every half an hour, 24 hours
13 a day. This is unheard of. This has never been applied anywhere in any
15 Now, you are trying to justify this practice that is being
16 exercised by the medical officer, maybe you didn't understand me
17 properly. Maybe my statements were not translated properly, but I'm
18 really surprised at your response.
19 JUDGE PROST: Thank you, Mr. Tolimir. Be assured, as I said at
20 the beginning, that we take the issue very seriously, and it's not that I
21 don't understand at all the gravity of what you are raising. And it was
22 in fact because of your comments at the last Status Conference that I
23 have in fact had several discussions with the Registrar and the UNDU
24 about this issue. So it is not certainly that I don't understand the
25 point which you are making.
1 At the same time, you must appreciate that the Trial Chamber is
2 not in a position to replace its opinion for the opinion of medical
3 authorities on medical issues, and I'm sure you can understand that.
4 So as I indicated, I would like there again to be a dialogue.
5 The point you made initially that you would like a more detailed
6 explanation regarding the operation of the device is certainly a
7 reasonable request, and I'm sure that the UNDU officials can do that for
8 you. It doesn't particularly surprise me that the medical officer
9 himself might not know the details of the operation. But certainly you
10 are entitled to have that information, and I'm sure it can be provided to
12 So as I say, I'm not in a position to impose a particular course
13 of action at this time, but I am asking that again the matter be
14 discussed and that I be kept apprised as to the developments. So be
15 assured that it is not that I don't appreciate the problem and the
16 difficulties that you are facing with respect to the monitoring that's
17 being done at the moment, and I will continue to discuss the matter with
18 the Registry.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. But I have to point out
20 and I have to ask what kind of concern there is about me if I am being
21 deprived of some basic rights like rest and sleep? By waking me up every
22 30 minutes, they are simply destroying my health. Only people who are
23 not normal can think about this kind of measures.
24 Mr. McCloskey mentioned today what effects this has on witnesses
25 after seven
1 last two years, so please bear that in mind. What kind of a doctor gives
2 you a poison in order to keep you alive? He is destroying me by
3 depriving me of sleep, just to find out the moment when I'm going to die.
4 I would personally like to know when I'm going to die, but it is up to
5 God to decide on that, not me. So please bear that in mind and have some
6 understanding for me.
7 You may have endless trust in the medical officer, but you have
8 to think about whether this is feasible and reasonable to apply just to
9 find out when the person is going to die. And I'm repeating again what
10 he said that he knows nothing about this device and that he asked a
11 computer expert to come and explain it to me. And he even translated the
12 operation manual to me for this device, and I know that this kind of
13 device has been used for inhumane purposes. Please bear in mind that I
14 will never accept anything that is inhumane, and it is an inhumane
15 approach to affect somebody's body by having them exposed to certain
16 waves. So please bear that in mind, thank you.
17 JUDGE PROST: Thank you, Mr. Tolimir. I have fully understood
18 your submissions on this. And as indicated, I will raise it again with
19 the UNDU and the Registrar.
20 All right. Is there any other matter that either of the parties
21 wish to raise?
22 Mr. Tolimir, I don't see any indication that you have any -- any
23 other additional matters you wanted to raise with me this afternoon?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, I don't. I don't know
25 if you notice that we would need until the end of September in order to
1 submit the pre-trial brief in view of the Prosecution pretrial brief, and
2 I assume that we can be granted the same volume of 130 pages, but new
3 material keeps coming all the time. I have nothing against it, but I
4 really need time at least to read them. We may not conduct an
5 investigation, but at least what we can do is to read the material.
6 JUDGE PROST: Yes, on the issue as indicated, I will reflect on
7 the submission that you made in writing and the submissions made here
8 today by both parties. And we'll be issuing a Scheduling Order shortly,
9 particularly with respect to the filings as to the pre-trial brief and
10 the -- any special defences, so I have your submissions on that. I
11 haven't reached a conclusion on that, I will as I indicate, reflect on
12 the positions that have been advanced by both sides.
13 Mr. McCloskey, anything further from the Prosecution?
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Madam President.
15 JUDGE PROST: Thank you. Well, then I believe that this
16 completes the matters to be discussed today. And I thank all of you and
17 wish you a pleasant rest of the afternoon, and we are adjourned.
18 --- Whereupon the Status Conference adjourned at
19 3.14 p.m.