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Page 518

1 Q. All right. Can you tell us where you settled around Srebrenica.

2 We know it's a big -- it was a big area.

3 A. When we arrived in Srebrenica, there was a Bosniak there, and in

4 Kazani near the graveyard, he was waiting there, and he offered

5 accommodation. He made an arrangement with my older brother and we

6 stayed with this man in his house until the fall of Srebrenica.

7 Q. And we know that Srebrenica is a town in a narrow valley. Was

8 this in the town itself or was it in one of the little villages or rural

9 areas outside the town?

10 A. No, no, we lived in the town near the hospital, near the two

11 high-rise buildings. Anyone who knows Srebrenica knows what I'm talking

12 about. It was closer to the UNPROFOR base, and that is town proper.

13 Q. All right. Now, let me take you to July 1995 and ask you: Were

14 you living in this same place in July 1995?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And were you in the BiH army, the Muslim army at that time?

17 A. No.

18 Q. And what did you do to sustain yourself, to feed yourself and

19 your brothers?

20 A. Well, we were sowing land, that was Serbian land that had been

21 abandoned, and we were working the land. That's how we sustained

22 ourselves, in addition to receiving some of humanitarian aid.

23 Q. All right. And at some point in July 1995, did you decide to

24 leave your home once again?

25 A. Well, we had to. That wasn't our decision of our own accord. We

Page 519

1 just had to go.

2 Q. Why was that?

3 A. Because the Serbian forces were pushing to take and capture

4 Srebrenica at any cost, and that is the reason why we had to leave.

5 Q. Why wouldn't you continue to want to live in Srebrenica if it had

6 become controlled by the Serbian forces?

7 A. Nobody remained in Srebrenica. Nobody dared remain except

8 handicapped people, which they, the Serbian forces, probably killed if

9 they came across such handicapped people. Everybody else had to leave.

10 Q. You said "nobody dared." What were people afraid of -- and

11 yourself I'm mostly concerned about.

12 A. Well, we were afraid of what actually happened to us. We were

13 afraid of dying, and this is exactly what happened to us later on.

14 Q. Okay. Can you tell us what course of action you took and when.

15 You remember the dates well, I believe.

16 A. On the 11th of July, that was a Tuesday, we decided to leave.

17 Those fit for military service decided to go through the woods, while the

18 elder men, women, and children decided to go to Potocari, and they also

19 took to the woods.

20 Q. Okay. Prior to this had there been any military action or -- in

21 and around the town of Srebrenica where you were?

22 A. I don't know. I heard from other people that there was some

23 action outside of town, but not in the town itself.

24 Q. Okay. And was there any shelling that you heard about?

25 A. Yes, there was. On that day, the 11th of July, I saw the footage

Page 520

1 that was played here in the courtroom. I saw women entering the UNPROFOR

2 compound. They were around some trucks, and you can see that there was a

3 shell that had landed approximately 100 metres from the UNPROFOR base.

4 Q. Okay. It's important, Witness, to distinguish between what you

5 actually saw at the time and what you may have seen in video later. The

6 Court will be able to see these videos, and so what we want from you now

7 is what you remember seeing and happening to you --

8 A. At that moment when the shell landed, there was a crowd of people

9 headed for Potocari. There was no transportation provided for them, and

10 the distance was about 4 kilometres. When this mortar landed above the

11 UNPROFOR base, all the women and children tried to find shelter in the

12 UNPROFOR base and their trucks. I saw it with my own eyes, but that was

13 the time when I was leaving Srebrenica.

14 Q. Okay. And who did you leave Srebrenica with on this day, the

15 11th?

16 A. With my brother Nurif.

17 Q. And where did you go?

18 A. We went to Susnjari, through woods and meadows.

19 Q. And why did you go there?

20 A. Well, everybody decided to take that route, not to Tuzla but

21 rather to Susnjari.

22 Q. Did you get any idea of roughly how many people gathered around

23 the area of Susnjari on these -- on this day, the 11th?

24 A. According to some rough estimates, there should have been at

25 least 15.000 people.

Page 521

1 Q. And where did you get this rough estimate from?

2 A. Well, that's what we did discuss amongst ourselves. We just

3 tried to reach a certain figure because if you think that a football

4 stadium can accommodate 15.000 people, that was the kind of bench-mark

5 for us to make this estimate.

6 Q. And how many of those people were armed with rifles or some gun

7 of some sort roughly?

8 A. Between 200 and 500 rifles they had, but only rifles.

9 Q. And what happened up there on the 11th, what did you do? What

10 did the rest of the group do?

11 A. We arrived in the evening of the 11th to Susnjari. Some left

12 immediately during the night, and I myself left Susnjari the next day,

13 that is, the 12th of July.

14 Q. And left going where?

15 A. Towards Tuzla.

16 Q. And who was with you?

17 A. My brother who never returned.

18 Q. And were you with a lot of other people?

19 A. Yes, of course. There was a column, an endless column.

20 Q. Do you know roughly where you were in this endless column,

21 beginning, middle, end?

22 A. I was at the rear end of the column.

23 Q. All right. And can you just briefly describe to us what you did

24 on that 12th when you set off with the column through the woods towards

25 Tuzla, with your brother and this other group.

Page 522

1 A. We walked until darkness. That was a thick forest, and I spent

2 the night under a beech tree because I didn't sleep the previous night

3 because there was panic everywhere. So I slept the whole night there.

4 Q. Did you know the area at all, what features or other areas,

5 anything about it?

6 A. No, no. I was in that area for the first time in my life.

7 Q. And can you give us an idea of how hot was it on this -- these

8 July days and nights?

9 A. No, not at night. It was hot during the night -- during the day,

10 but not at night. Nights were rather chilly.

11 Q. And on your walk on the 12th, were you fired upon by any weapons?

12 A. They were firing on us, but I didn't feel the bullets passing

13 next to us; they were falling astray, somewhere behind us.

14 Q. All right. And when you woke up on the morning of the 13th, can

15 you tell us what you did.

16 A. When I woke up that morning, I saw some people coming back and

17 some were going forward, and I went a little bit back with this group

18 that was retreating. After that, I again saw a group moving forward.

19 But my brother wasn't there any longer. I returned again to the group

20 that was going forward and I saw many more people there, including my

21 brother.

22 Q. Then what did you do?

23 A. We were sitting there and the Serb started calling upon us

24 through the megaphone to surrender. Since we ourselves didn't have a

25 megaphone, we had to shout very loudly, "Yes, we shall do that but to the

Page 523

1 UNPROFOR and the Red Cross." They didn't respond anything to that. They

2 only gave us an ultimatum, which was to expire at 10.00 and at which time

3 they said they would attack us. After 10.00 they again started calling

4 us. People again asked for UNPROFOR and the Red Cross, and they gave us

5 a new dead-line which was 1500 hours. Then people started discussing

6 whether to surrender or not.

7 We thought there was no way out of that situation, and it was

8 decided for us to surrender. I saw people carrying a white T-shirt

9 attached to a staff as a sign of surrender. Then we went through a wood,

10 and when we came to a field we saw a lot of dead bodies. That was

11 probably where an ambush had been set for this first group, and we didn't

12 know anything about this because we were at the rear end of the column.

13 While we were descended, it was a very steep slope and we went

14 down to a river. First we had a lot of water to drink. When we came

15 down there, there were Serbian soldiers awaiting us. These Serbian

16 soldiers immediately asked us to give them money. They were asking us to

17 give them US dollars, German marks, and any currency, and they said, "If

18 you don't give it to us, those who were your predecessors were --

19 actually, you will fare in the same way as your predecessors," but I

20 don't know who those predecessors were.

21 Once we reached the road, we had our hands up in the air. They

22 lined us along the road, and that is when women and children arrived in

23 buses. There was not a single adult male among them. There was my

24 wife's aunt and another woman that I knew from before. We were told to

25 take out everything from our pockets. At the time I was smoking tobacco

Page 524

1 and I threw that tobacco and the lighter on the road. Another soldier

2 told us, "You better take this, you might need it."

3 Q. Okay. Let me stop you there. You said the decision was made for

4 you to surrender. Do you know who made that decision for you?

5 A. We ourselves amongst us decided it.

6 Q. Was there any military people among the group you were in, any

7 Bosnian Muslim military people?

8 A. No, no. Those who had some weapons, they had left with the first

9 group and they had moved through. And they were lucky because they had

10 the weapons, whereas we didn't have anything and we could be killed by

11 anyone.

12 Q. Okay. This road where you went down and surrendered, was this

13 a -- what was this road made out of? What kind of road was it?

14 A. Well, as we kept going down the slope, we went through the woods,

15 and then we crossed one or two fields, and then we reached a paved road,

16 the main road that led from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje.

17 Q. All right. And is this -- where was the area that you saw the

18 women and children being transported?

19 A. Well, that was at the place where we surrendered, around Sandici

20 approximately.

21 Q. Is that at the asphalt road at Sandici?

22 A. Yes, yes, on that asphalt road.

23 Q. And do you know just roughly what time of day it was that you got

24 down to the Sandici area on the asphalt road?

25 A. Well, it was perhaps 3.00 or 4.00 in the afternoon. It was in

Page 525

1 the afternoon.

2 Q. Now, did people in your group have back-packs, any personal

3 belongings with them?

4 A. Yes, we had them. I had a back-pack myself, and we when we -- as

5 we were getting ready to step on to the asphalt road they said, "Why

6 don't you just throw your back-packs there, by the side of the road, and

7 they will follow you."

8 Q. Okay. And just to be clear for our record, when you say "they,"

9 who was the one who told you to throw your stuff by the road?

10 A. Well, Serb soldiers.

11 Q. Now, what happened in the afternoon there at Sandici with this --

12 your group that had surrendered?

13 A. Well, when we surrendered, we actually reached an elevation some

14 hundred metres away from the road, and there were rows and rows of

15 people - I don't know how many. There was an APC there and a Serb

16 soldier, a very young soldier, who had a black kerchief around his head.

17 I don't know what that was supposed to mean, but he was in charge.

18 Whenever a group arrived or ran across, then he would tell the group,

19 "Tomorrow you will be exchanged, all for all."

20 And as we were sitting in rows, there was a soldier by every

21 single row, one on the one side and another on the other side. There

22 were -- in our row there were two women and a young woman and a young

23 boy, he was that woman's son. And the soldier with a black kerchief said

24 to the woman, "There are buses down there." Then the young girl and the

25 other young girl, who was very pretty, got up and the Serb soldier

Page 526

1 started saying, "No, no, leave them behind, we need her." Well, this guy

2 wasn't really paying any attention to them. He said, "Just go to the

3 bus." And he let go probably some 10 or so more boys, who were up to

4 15 years of age. And then there was another boy, I don't know how old he

5 was, I didn't dare turn around. He said, "No, no, you remain seated.

6 You are able to carry a machine-gun."

7 Q. Okay. Did you see any more military equipment beside this APC,

8 armoured personnel carrier?

9 A. Well, no, it's just that they were armed, they had rifles. And

10 when another group was supposed to come over as a new shift, they started

11 saying, "Well, here are Arkan's men." I couldn't really tell what kind

12 of insignia they had on their uniforms. I just noticed that they had new

13 uniforms.

14 Q. And could you see any buses or trucks moving along the road with

15 women and children in them?

16 A. No, we couldn't see the road from where we were.

17 Q. And what happened then after you were placed in this meadow with

18 this big group of people?

19 A. Well, while we were there, on that meadow, they ordered us to lie

20 down on our stomachs. We all did. And they told us we should keep

21 calling "Allahu Akbar," which is a Muslim prayer. Then they began to

22 yell at us, saying, "This is not Srebrenica." And then they told us to

23 start calling out, "Long live the king." Well, people started doing

24 that, I don't know if I did myself, but in any case they couldn't tell

25 who was actually calling out and who wasn't.

Page 527

1 And I -- all this time I had this thought in the back of my mind

2 that they weren't going to shoot us in that position. But we know that

3 there were instances where - and that's what happened in Zvornik and

4 that's how my brother-in-law was killed - they just ordered people to lie

5 down on their stomachs, and then -- women and men and children, and then

6 they just shot them in the back. And that's -- I know about this because

7 I was told by my brother-in-law.

8 Q. Okay. Well, I don't want to ask you about Zvornik and what

9 happened in 1992 or what was told to you, but what did you think was

10 going to happen to you when you were all told to lie down on your

11 stomachs and say these things?

12 A. Well, I thought that they weren't going to shoot us because there

13 was a soldier -- well, there would have to be a soldier coming along the

14 rows from one side and another from the other end on the other side if

15 they were going to shoot us, but they didn't do that so I thought they

16 wouldn't.

17 Q. So what happened then?

18 A. After this, people started yelling, "Here's Mladic, here's Mladic

19 coming." Up until then I hadn't seen Mladic ever. I was in Srebrenica.

20 I didn't watch TV and I didn't know the man from before or what he looked

21 like, but he came along, he came with a few soldiers with him, and he

22 called out to us and said, "Good evening, neighbours." And he said,

23 "Tomorrow you will be exchanged, everyone will be exchanged, all for

24 all." And we said, "Thank you, commander." And we started clapping our

25 hands. Then he left, and soon afterwards they ordered us -- they ordered

Page 528

1 the first row, the first line of people, to climb on to the vehicle and

2 then the second row, third, and so on, up until it came my turn. And

3 then as I came on to the road they started yelling, "You have to get on

4 to this truck." And it so happened that I ended up being in the trailer

5 of the truck. And then I saw a young soldier, maybe up -- not older than

6 30. He had a short beard and a black bandanna, and he said, "I will go

7 with this -- on this truck and go with the soldier." He didn't address

8 us.

9 So as soon as the vehicle would be filled with people, it would

10 leave. Soon night fell and we had no idea where we were going. Vehicles

11 passed us by. We could just see the lights, the headlights of vehicles

12 passing us by. We headed towards Bratunac, and when we arrived there, on

13 the left-hand side one could see buildings up to three to four storeys

14 high, but on the right-hand side we couldn't see any buildings. The

15 vehicle -- they parked the vehicle at the end of the street or on the

16 side of the street actually. And one of them, the driver, who was a

17 driver and who was with us in the trailer, said, "These are Vihor

18 garages."

19 Soon after that they began asking for people from the Srebrenica

20 villages to come out, Pusmulici, Glogova, Slatina, Konjevic Polje, and so

21 on, a number of other villages, I don't know anymore which, and as soon

22 as these people would step forward they would ask for their father's

23 name and then take them away.

24 Q. Let me interrupt you briefly. You said "they asked," who were

25 these "they"?

Page 529

1 A. Serb soldiers.

2 Q. Can you tell us -- you said there's a truck with a trailer. Can

3 you give us an idea how big this truck and trailer was so we can get a

4 picture. Is it a big construction or a small little personal truck and

5 trailer?

6 A. No, no, these were trucks. These were big construction trucks

7 that would transport iron ore or coal and so on. They were big, maybe

8 12 or 13 metres long. They're big trucks. But the trailer was also very

9 big, it was at least 10 metres long. So if you're sitting on the truck,

10 you wouldn't see a person sitting in the cab.

11 Q. So could you see over the top of the trailer where you were held

12 or -- if you stood up?

13 A. Well, we didn't know where we were headed. That's why I was

14 saying we just noticed -- and again, the brother of mine who came back,

15 he said that he had seen people between Bratunac and Glogova. He was on

16 the bus, and he was the one who told me, "Well, here they just drove away

17 captured people."

18 Q. Let me just clear something up. You said someone came back and

19 told you this. Who was it?

20 A. No, no, my brother said, once I reached the free territory, that

21 he had seen when those buses and trucks drove off towards Bratunac.

22 Q. Okay. That's why I needed to clarify that. Let's just try to

23 stay right in Bratunac at the moment. But can you tell us how high the

24 sides of this trailer were in -- that you were in?

25 A. Well, they were perhaps 1 metre high.

Page 530

1 Q. And did -- were you able to stand up and look over?

2 A. We didn't dare stand up. No one dared even place their arm over

3 this side of the truck. If they did that, they would be just hit with

4 the rifle-butt.

5 Q. Okay. Well, then tell us what happened as -- you've said that

6 the Serb soldiers were calling people out from Srebrenica villages. Did

7 anybody respond?

8 A. Yes, people responded, and then they would take that person

9 upward, they would take them away; and then we would hear a strong thud.

10 And then you could hear cries. They would start yelling, "Stop that,

11 stop that," then you would hear a gun-shot, and then there would be

12 silence. And that's how it went on that whole night.

13 Q. Did any of the people that left during the night like this come

14 back, any of the Muslims?

15 A. No, no.

16 Q. And what happened in the morning? And this would be now the

17 morning of the 14th.

18 A. Well, in the morning when it grew lighter, the Serb soldiers

19 started yelling, "Don't allow civilians to go up to that street." They

20 were probably afraid that one of the civilians would then report what

21 they had seen there and what had happened. They told us then, "Now, take

22 them to Fikret and Alija and exchange them."

23 Q. And then what happened?

24 A. [No interpretation]

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can I stop you here. We don't receive

Page 531

1 interpretation at the moment.

2 Try it again. Is there interpretation?

3 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear me?

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please continue.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY:

6 Q. Let's start over. There was a little interpretation glitch. So

7 can you tell us, that morning, after these comments about Alija, what

8 happened?

9 A. Well, as I've already said, they said that these people should

10 now be taken to Fikret and Alija and exchanged. The trucks and buses set

11 off, and then as they reached the edge of Bratunac they were stopped

12 again. And then they said, "We're waiting for UNPROFOR." It got really

13 hot there because the sides of the truck were metal, the sun was shining.

14 And the driver who drove us and another young man from Bratunac brought

15 water for us, they gave us water, but we were so thirsty that we never

16 had enough. They kept bringing water, but it wasn't enough to slake our

17 thirst. The young man who was from Bratunac started asking about a man

18 Ismet, last name Ramic, who was a shoemaker, started asking about him.

19 And then somebody asked him, "Well, why are you asking about him?" And

20 he said, "Well, he was my neighbour."

21 Q. And how long did this group of vehicles stay there?

22 A. Well, to tell you the truth I didn't have a watch, but it took a

23 while.

24 Q. And can you tell us roughly what time in the morning it -- the

25 trucks first started moving before it stopped at this place?

Page 532

1 A. Well, that was very early. It could have been 6.00 or 6.30 in

2 the morning. It was very early.

3 Q. So then it stops for a while and then what happens?

4 A. After this, when neither UNPROFOR appeared nor anyone, there was

5 a group of civilians, Serb civilians, who appeared, elderly people. Some

6 of them were in uniforms, others weren't, and they were on a truck. It

7 was an old Srebrenica truck that people used to transport humanitarian

8 aid. And this group, they said, "They're coming behind us." What they

9 meant by that I really don't know.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: These are ours.

11 What they meant by that I don't know.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY:

13 Q. And then what happened?

14 A. Then a column started. We stopped just once for maybe five

15 minutes, and then the column moved forward towards Konjevic Polje. And

16 as we were walking [as interpreted] towards Konjevic Polje and climbing

17 up the hill, it was only then that we could actually see. I don't know

18 whether there were five trucks or ten trucks, but as we were driving and

19 we were up on the hill, then we could see the entire column.

20 Q. And roughly what could you see when you saw this entire column,

21 can you give us an idea of the size?

22 A. We could see that there were three armoured vehicles in one

23 place. I don't know whether they were waiting for somebody or not, but

24 they were there, and it was then that we set out towards Konjevic Polje.

25 Q. Now, in the English a while back, it said that you were walking

Page 533

1 up the hill. Were you ever walking at this point or that may have just

2 been a translation mistake?

3 A. We were driving. We were driving.

4 Q. Okay. And where did you -- where did this column of vehicles go

5 towards from Konjevic Polje?

6 A. Towards Zvornik.

7 Q. And where is the next place it stopped?

8 A. Well, when we came to Josanica, one could see Divic from there,

9 and some people started yelling that there was an APC of the UN in front

10 of the Vidikovac hotel that joined us. We passed through Divic -- it

11 wasn't called Divic at the time, it was called St. Stephen, Sveti Stefan.

12 It was quite steep, and when I looked back I could see that the sign read

13 "Sveti Stefan."

14 Q. And is this place a little village just south of Zvornik, right

15 on the cliffs above the Drina River?

16 A. Yes, yes, it's right by the Drina River, right next to it.

17 It's -- it has about 3 to 4.000 inhabitants. It's quite densely

18 populated. Houses are very close to each other.

19 Q. And what colour was this APC that you saw?

20 A. It was white.

21 Q. And where did your vehicles go from Divic?

22 A. We moved back to Zvornik, and from there to Karakaj. And then

23 from Karakaj, the trucks turned left towards Tuzla. We drove for a short

24 period of time, and then the trucks turned to the right.

25 Q. And when they turned to the -- was the -- the road when you went

Page 534

1 towards Tuzla, was that a small road or a main road, the one going

2 towards Tuzla?

3 A. It was the main road from Zvornik to Tuzla, and the one that we

4 were on was a minor road, regional road.

5 Q. And before you turned off on this minor road, where did you think

6 you were going?

7 A. Well, when they started towards Tuzla -- and prior to that they

8 kept promising that we would be exchanged. And at that point in time I

9 truly thought that they were going to exchange us.

10 Q. So when you returned right onto this minor road, where did you

11 go?

12 A. We went to this village called Orahovac.

13 Q. Where in particular?

14 A. To the elementary school in Orahovac.

15 Q. And what happened when your vehicle got there?

16 A. When we came in front of the yard, the vehicles would enter one

17 by one or perhaps two or three at the same time into the yard. They

18 would unload the prisoners, and prisoners would need to run into the

19 school building. When our turn came, we entered the -- the yard and the

20 UN APC did not have the UN sign anymore. It just had a C remaining

21 there. And there were two soldiers with automatic weapons, and then

22 there was a civilian there, between 50 and 55 years of age, moving about.

23 None of them said anything to anyone. There were Serbian soldiers there.

24 Now, whether they captured the UN APC, I don't know.

25 When we got off the truck, we were ordered to run into the school

Page 535

1 building. When I was just in front of the door, I had a leather jacket

2 on me and they told me to take the jacket off. And I took it off and I

3 put it on a pile of other clothing, and I entered through the hallway.

4 We went straight for a while and then we turned left. It was a long

5 hallway that took us to the gym.

6 Q. Now, when someone told you to take off your coat, was that a

7 civilian or a military person?

8 A. A military person. Civilians did not interfere into anything

9 there. There were civilians just standing and watching but not saying

10 anything to us.

11 Q. Were you able to get any idea of how many soldiers were standing

12 around as you got hustled off the bus and moved into the school?

13 A. Well, both the police and the soldiers, there were perhaps up to

14 50 of them.

15 Q. How did you distinguish police from soldiers?

16 A. Well, policemen had grey-olive uniforms and soldiers had green

17 multi-coloured uniforms. Later on when the corridor was opened, I saw

18 what uniform policemen had because we only had one police where we lived,

19 not more.

20 Q. And when a military man told you to take off your jacket and put

21 it in that -- that pile, can you give us some idea about how big a pile

22 of belongings were of other people?

23 A. It was a large pile, perhaps hundred to 200 people had taken

24 their clothes off.

25 Q. All right. Can you describe what the gym was like when you got

Page 536

1 in.

2 A. When we entered the gym, it was more than half full, and as

3 people entered they would sit down. And we would sit down in such a way

4 as to have our knees touch our chest.

5 Q. And, you know, we say "gym," but can you describe what sort of

6 facility this was?

7 A. Well, you know, in elementary schools there's a sports hall where

8 kids have physical education.

9 Q. Were there basketball backboards there?

10 A. I didn't see them then.

11 Q. Okay. And what happened when you got in and had to sit like you

12 described? Tell us what else happened.

13 A. Well, when everybody entered the gym, they put a blanket down and

14 four young boys sat there. They were between 10 and 14 years of age, I

15 would say. When I crossed into the free territory I immediately asked

16 whether four kids had been released, and I was told that yes. That means

17 that if they hadn't released those four kids they would have killed

18 people from 10 to 80 years of age because people who were there had been

19 brought in from Potocari.

20 Q. Okay. So what happened after you saw these kids were on the --

21 they were allowed to sit on a blanket. What happened to everybody else

22 as you were there?

23 A. They would pick out prisoners to bring water for us, and they

24 would bring water. And then after a long period of time a delegation of

25 officers or some other persons like that came, and one of them asked

Page 537

1 whether there was anybody there from the Zvornik municipality and nobody

2 responded. Then they ordered that four rows should get up. Those were

3 the elderly from Potocari. And they told them to turn around, face the

4 wall, and have their backs towards the door. Then they called another

5 four rows and then another four rows. And when my turn came, when four

6 of my rows got up, we faced in the other direction and our backs were

7 turned towards the exit where there was Serbian soldiers and a woman.

8 And then they brought a lot of cloth, and it went on until one of us

9 prisoners said, "You must not kill these people."

10 It was mostly young men standing at the door, 18 or younger,

11 Serbian soldiers, and they all held their rifles in their hands like

12 that. And the one that uttered those words, he was maybe 25. And then

13 they said, "Well, who says so?" And the man again repeated the same

14 words. And then they said, "Well, we'll see whether we must or we must

15 not," and then they told them to get up. He had black trousers on him

16 and a shirt similar to mine. They took him out of the gym. We heard

17 rifle shots and the man screamed, and then more shots and then silence.

18 Then they took out a young man again, 20 to 25. I don't know why they

19 took him out. Again we heard rifle shots and the man never re-appeared.

20 They stopped the water from being brought in. I guess they

21 needed time to clear that away, and then they started putting blindfolds

22 on us. And we would go into this room that was L-shaped. Before that

23 people asked them, "Where are you taking these people?" And they

24 responded, "To Bijeljina, to a camp there." Nobody put any questions

25 after that.

Page 538

1 Q. Okay. Let me stop you for just one minute. In one of your

2 statements within a year or so after the events, it appears from that --

3 in the statement that the people that were -- got up that said, "Don't

4 kill any of us," that they were killed in the gym in front of you. Is

5 that correct, or is your recollection now that they were actually taken

6 outside and that's when you heard shots?

7 A. No, no. I never said that he was killed in the gym. He was

8 taken out, and the other one was taken out as well. Right there, I only

9 saw them slap one man. Why they slapped him, I don't know. People

10 addressed the soldiers. They would say, "Soldiers." And they would

11 respond saying, "We are not soldiers. We are Karadzic's Chetniks." So

12 nobody was killed there. People were taken out in front of the school

13 building.

14 Q. And can you tell us, in this gym, how full was it with Muslims?

15 A. Well, we had to sit with our knees against our chests, and there

16 were between 500 and 1.000 people there.

17 Q. So was there any empty space in this gym or was it pretty full

18 up?

19 A. There, when all of us were there in the gym, you couldn't throw a

20 matchstick and have it fall on the floor, and that was before people

21 started going out.

22 Q. And how hot was it in that gym that you were there?

23 A. It was so hot that people started complaining. You could just

24 hear a rumour, and then Serbian soldiers would fire on the wall to make

25 them go quiet again.

Page 539

1 Q. And you mentioned that there was some elderly men from Potocari.

2 So when you say "elderly," how old did you mean?

3 A. Well, there was a man from my village, I knew him, he was 70.

4 And these people were between 60- and 70-something. I know that this one

5 man from my village was 70.

6 Q. And when you say from Potocari, what did you mean by that?

7 A. Well, the people who had left with women and children as not fit

8 for the army service, it was them, not just those who went to Orahovac.

9 Everywhere, at every location, young and old alike were killed.

10 Q. And how did you know that these men were from the group that went

11 with the women and children to Potocari? Did you know that at the time

12 or is that something you learned later?

13 A. No, no. We knew immediately that those people had gone with

14 women and children because they were so frail that they couldn't walk

15 5 kilometres in the whole day, let alone 100 kilometres from Srebrenica.

16 Q. So can you give us any kind of a rough time estimate of when you

17 actually first got to this school. When your truck first pulled up to

18 the school, do you know roughly what time of day it was?

19 A. It was in the afternoon. It was in the afternoon. But I didn't

20 have a watch on me, so I don't know what time it was.

21 Q. And how long were you jammed in this gym until you were stood up

22 and blindfolded and put in this L-shaped room?

23 A. I don't know how long we spent there, but when I came out there

24 was maybe one hour before it fell dark. I don't know whether we were

25 there for three hours, five hours. I haven't got a clue.

Page 540

1 Q. Okay. Tell us what happened in the L-shaped room and -- where

2 you were taken.

3 A. Well, they took two prisoners there and blindfolded them. There

4 was a woman standing there and two uniformed men. The woman also wore

5 uniform. She gave a cup of water to every person after they had been

6 blindfolded. Why she did that, I don't know. They made a kind of swing

7 barrier there and there was a TAM truck there. When I boarded the truck

8 there were two benches but they were not full. I sat on the right-hand

9 side. When the truck became full and all the places on the benches were

10 occupied, people were sitting down between the benches.

11 I forgot to say that once they started taking people out, a

12 soldier appeared with a red beret. He went with every batch of people.

13 I don't know whether there were two or three trucks, because once you

14 have a blindfold you can't see anything.

15 Q. Can you just tell us briefly what a TAM truck is so we can get

16 that picture of a TAM truck in our mind.

17 A. The TAM truck was used by farmers to transport produce and

18 cattle. It is good for small cattle. It could perhaps accommodate two

19 cows but not more, so mostly people from Bijeljina and Janja used these

20 kind of trucks for the transportation of agriculture produce.

21 Q. So did the military use TAM trucks as well with benches on the

22 side?

23 A. No, no. The army never had this kind of trucks. They had bigger

24 TAM trucks, but they confiscated these smaller ones from the farmers

25 because they commandeered all kind of machinery from farmers.

Page 541

1 Q. Now, this door that you went out and were -- from a ramp into the

2 truck, was this the same door you came in to the building or a different

3 one?

4 A. No, no, we entered through a different door and we went out

5 through this door. In 1999 I went to visit the scene, and that is when

6 this door was -- was built and closed with concrete blocks because

7 terrible genocide was carried out in the territory of Zvornik

8 municipality.

9 Q. Who did you go there with in 1999?

10 A. I went with this investigator named Ruez.

11 Q. And that was an investigator from the ICTY, to your knowledge?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And when he took you to this school, were you able to recognise

14 it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. Now, once you were put in the back of this truck with your

17 blindfold, what happened?

18 A. The truck rode down an asphalt road for a short period of time.

19 I felt that it went to the left. After this short ride it stopped. We

20 were told to climb down, and that's what we did. I looked in front of

21 myself and I saw a dead man. I have three children and immediately I

22 thought about them, and I thought that I would have the same destiny like

23 this man, that I'm not going to see my children ever again. And I was --

24 I started praying to God and I started thinking in what way they are

25 going to kill me.

Page 542

1 A burst of fire was heard coming from the left. I fell down and

2 my right arm was across the chest of another man. When this burst of

3 fire stopped, a man came, started walking among the people lying on the

4 ground and shooting them in the head. I have a little bruise here

5 probably from the ground and the gravel that was on the road --

6 Q. Okay. Let me just interrupt you for the record. I see you're

7 pointing to some fingers on your right hand.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you've told us you had a blindfold on. How can you see

10 anything with this blindfold, was it still on?

11 A. No. I didn't see this on my hand. I only felt it. But at that

12 very moment, because I was looking down in front of myself, I saw this

13 dead man.

14 Q. So did you have the blindfold on when you looked down to see the

15 dead man?

16 A. Yes, yes. I was just looking directly in front of me, because

17 you couldn't see anything ahead. That was a very sick -- thick cloth and

18 it wasn't see-through.

19 Q. And after the firing and you fell down, what happened?

20 A. When everything stopped, when the shooting stopped, they started

21 shouting, "Let's go and take their watches off." I didn't have a watch

22 and my left arm was beneath me, but then one of them said, "We're not

23 going to do that," and they didn't. In the meantime, as soon as a truck

24 would arrive the same would be repeated. You would hear a burst of fire

25 and all this was going on until darkness fell.

Page 543

1 Q. Can you give us -- and -- just your rough estimate of how long

2 this -- these executions were going on from the time you first got to

3 this site?

4 A. Well, it -- they definitely lasted until 11.00 in the evening

5 because it lasted for quite some time after darkness fell. Overall I

6 don't know how long it started from the very -- how long it took from the

7 very beginning.

8 Q. Were there any lights around?

9 A. There was an excavator there, and it was digging. When I slowly

10 removed my blindfold I saw this excavator opposite us. When this was

11 finished, they didn't have any more place and they all gathered around

12 this machine, and this man who was in charge told them, "Let's go to this

13 field where grass had been cut to kill all those people." The man

14 stopped the excavator and said, "If you leave, I'd like to go with you."

15 Q. Did you ever hear any names mentioned by any of these men that

16 were doing the shooting or were at the site?

17 A. They mentioned the names Gojko, Vojo, that's how they were

18 addressing one another, Risto. This Gojko was my fellow worker from the

19 company and we had known each other for 15 years. Gojko thought that all

20 the men were dead, and he said that he would like to be kissed by some of

21 the men who were killed. I recognised his voice when he said that.

22 Q. Did you ever see his face while you were there?

23 A. No, no. It was dark. It was night-time. I couldn't see his

24 face.

25 Q. And how can you be sure it was this voice of this Gojko?

Page 544

1 A. Well, he had a very specific voice. If you know someone for a

2 long time you can recognise their voice everywhere, and as I said, we

3 knew each other for 15 years. And they also were addressing one another

4 by name.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I think it's a good time to take a

6 break, and I can also tell you we're getting close to being finished with

7 direct examination. Maybe another 15 minutes.

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before we break, my fellow Judge has a question.

9 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Just one follow-up question.

10 Witness PW-007, I would like to know exactly what happened on July 12th.

11 In the transcript, page 15, line 8, 9, and 10, it says the following, and

12 I'll read in English:

13 [In English] "No, no. Those who had some weapons, they had left

14 with the first group and they had moved through, and they were lucky

15 because they had their weapons, whereas we didn't have anything and we

16 could be killed by anyone."

17 [Interpretation] This is on page 15. But on page 14, line 12,

18 this is what I read:

19 [In English] "We went through a wood and when we came to a field,

20 we saw a lot of dead bodies. That was probably where an ambush had been

21 set for this first group, and we didn't know anything about this because

22 we were at the rear end of the column."

23 [Interpretation] So this is my question, Witness. If I

24 understand things correctly, the first group had weapons, so these dead

25 bodies were probably people who had been killed during a battle. I don't

Page 545

1 know. It's just a question. I don't know what happened. So why are you

2 saying later on that the first group was lucky because they had weapons,

3 if they were killed at the end?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, not all of them were killed.

5 Probably 50 people were killed, but these people were killed on their way

6 from Srebrenica.

7 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] We are talking about this first

8 group where there were people with weapons; is that correct?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. Not all of them were

10 armed. Those who had weapons advanced and went ahead. Among them were,

11 for example, the president of the municipality, the people who had to be

12 provided with some security, and nobody knew what was going to happen.

13 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

14 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: There was no interpretation.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because this kind of genocide never

17 happened anywhere after the Second World War.

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: I could have one follow-up question that may help

20 clarify that.

21 Q. Sir, were you aware of how many -- roughly how many men from the

22 beginning of the Muslim column actually made it through at Baljkovica and

23 made it through to Muslim lines?

24 A. I don't know how many of them. Maybe you should ask someone

25 else. I never asked about this and I don't know.

Page 546

1 Q. Are those the lucky ones that you're referring to?

2 A. Well, yes, yes. Anyone who managed to cross over could be

3 considered lucky. Those who were unlucky are now being exhumed from

4 various graves, one arm in one grave, one leg in another grave. So only

5 those who survived were lucky.

6 [No interpretation].

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: There was again no translation of the last part.

8 There might be a problem with the system in the moment, but I think you

9 could deal with this problem after the break, again to clarify the

10 situation.

11 We must have our first break now and we will resume 20 minutes

12 past 4.00.

13 And I think to enable the witness to leave the courtroom we

14 should go into private -- it's not necessary. You will deal with that.

15 Thank you very much.

16 The Court Officer will assist you during the break. We will

17 resume 20 minutes past 4.00.

18 --- Recess taken at 3.52 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 4.25 p.m.

20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, please continue.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't know if the booth caught that last

22 sentence and they can tell us or not. I can try to see if the witness

23 remembers what he said.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Unfortunately, the interpreters didn't get this

25 last sentence.

Page 549

1 is you saw?

2 A. Well, that is a construction machine used for digging trenches

3 and canals. It can also load cargo on but it has a small bucket, so it's

4 different. It's really a digger.

5 Q. All right. And did you see another kind of a machine there

6 besides this excavator?

7 A. Well, after this I saw a loader. This loader came with the

8 lights on because the excavator was turned in the opposite direction so

9 the lights were only used -- the excavator lights were only used to

10 actually throw some light on the area that is being excavated or dug up.

11 Q. Now, what happened after this, after you saw this digging

12 equipment?

13 A. Well, when the digger, or rather, the loader arrived, it had the

14 lights on and we were all lit up. One of us was alive and he was on the

15 other side, on the opposite side from where we were. So he sort of stood

16 up and ran into the woods. They fired after him, and the driver of this

17 digger turned the digger so that he could actually light up the area

18 where the man fled into the woods. And at that moment I moved and then

19 he said, "Well, there's another man moving here." Fortunately, they

20 didn't hear him, and then I just lay -- I just took two long strides and

21 I could feel some stones there. And then I looked around. When I saw

22 that no one was going in my direction, I stood up. And as I ran up this

23 embankment, a stone-built embankment, I realised that it was really rail

24 tracks there. I ran up and I could hear a burst of fire being fired

25 behind me. I didn't see or hear the bullets actually hit the stones

Page 550

1 around me and I didn't feel being hit.

2 I flew over the railway tracks, and then I just threw myself over

3 the other side of the embankment. I jumped up again on to my feet, and

4 then I realised that there was a maise field not far off. They were

5 already very tall, the corn stalks. I ran halfway, and then I thought

6 they will start shooting because they will see the corn rustling. And

7 then I just threw myself on the ground, and then as I slithered through

8 it, I realised that there was some stream or water somewhere, but I

9 didn't see it. The Serb soldiers went searching through the cornfield.

10 They shot just randomly, I don't think -- and I didn't feel that anything

11 hit me. And then they turned back and went away.

12 I could hear the shooting for a long time after that, and when

13 everything was over, I got myself up from the cornfield. There was a

14 copse of trees not far from there, but I was very afraid as I left the

15 cornfield into the open field, but there was no one there, fortunately,

16 because had there been someone they would have caught me and killed me, I

17 am sure. And then I started moving but I didn't really know where I was

18 going because I knew when they had brought us to the school, but from

19 there onwards, I didn't know where I was.

20 And then as I was walking along the paved road there was -- there

21 were bodies there, but there were signs of life from one of these

22 persons. He was -- the sound that he was producing was inhuman. It was

23 almost like an animal squealing, but I couldn't really help him. So I

24 moved along and then I came across the railway tracks again, and then as

25 I crossed them I realised that I was at the railway station in Orahovac.

Page 551

1 So I concluded that I was again heading in the direction of Zvornik. So

2 I re-traced my steps. I went back and got on to the road again. I

3 didn't know where I was going. I decided to go into the wood because I

4 was afraid it would get light, because it was a summer night and they're

5 not very long.

6 I headed from there towards a home. There was a light coming

7 from there. I didn't hear any sound, not even a dog barking, and then as

8 I passed by a hut, I saw a person sleeping there with a rifle against the

9 wall. And then I went around that house, and again I had no idea where I

10 was. Soon after that it grew light. I went through some villages that

11 had been burnt down. I know they were Bosniak villages because they had

12 been burnt down. I had no idea where I was going. The sun was high up

13 and I still had no idea where I was going. But as I walked on,

14 fortunately I was walking in the right direction, not in the opposite

15 direction, and once I reached Krizevici where a store used to be, I

16 knew -- I found my bearings, I knew where I was.

17 So then I retraced my steps a bit. I went backwards. And then

18 as I went up a slope, I saw that a mosque which used to be there had been

19 destroyed. And then I arrived in Seferovici. I knew that because I had

20 some relatives nearby, in a village nearby, and as I was there, there was

21 a patrol that was walking there and they started shooting, but I managed

22 to get through Seferovici, this village. I walked across some grass.

23 The houses were all burnt down. And then as I crossed over that field, I

24 realised that there was this village that I knew, that I was familiar

25 with, because I had some relatives there.

Page 552

1 The grass was so high that I was wet almost up to my waist. So

2 then I decided to take a nap. I lay down and slept for maybe an hour or

3 two, I have no idea how long, but when I woke up I realised I hadn't

4 eaten anything for a very long time because we were only given water,

5 nothing else, since we had been detained. Maybe I had a fruit or

6 something but -- so then I went down to the village and I found a pear

7 which was ripe. There were some green buds or fruits on fruit trees, but

8 I couldn't eat that. There was only this one pear.

9 So then I tried to find some clothes in the village -there was no

10 one there because it had been burnt down - because I wanted a change of

11 clothes because the shirt that I had on had a blood-stain because of the

12 man who had leaned against me who had been shot. So I wanted to make

13 sure that I had clean clothes because had they found me like that, they

14 would have known that I had escaped.

15 So I returned -- I started going back. I headed back toward

16 Baljkovica when it got dark and I found a house that remained almost

17 intact. It hadn't been completely burnt down. The roof was -- had

18 fallen in, but -- but the walls were still up. And then when I arrived

19 there there were three buses, Drinatrans buses that were going -- local

20 buses that were transporting people back from -- towards Baljkovici. The

21 direction the buses were going was a Serb village --

22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the name of the

23 village.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and then I decided to spend the

25 night in that house. And in the morning, when it got light, somebody

Page 553

1 threw something, flung a stone against the wall and said, "Get up." So I

2 got up and I just was expecting someone to barge the door --

3 MR. McCLOSKEY:

4 Q. Let me interrupt you for one second. I'm sorry, you had

5 mentioned a village just now but they weren't able to hear it. Can you

6 tell us what village you had just passed through?

7 A. Well, I think it was Delici, that was the name of the village. I

8 know -- I was not from that village, but I know -- I have a general idea,

9 and I think it's Delici.

10 Q. Delici or Dulici?

11 A. Delici.

12 Q. Okay. And now from this morning that someone threw a rock at

13 you, how many more days did it take you to reach the Muslim territory?

14 A. Well, had the road been clear it would have taken 15 to

15 20 minutes because I was already nearby, but the roads weren't clear.

16 Q. So how long did it take you to manage to get away?

17 A. Well, I actually took advantage of the situation then because the

18 people who were going from Srebrenica had arrived at Baljkovica at that

19 time, and had there not been a breakthrough at that time of the front

20 line, those people would have ended the same way we had. And then when

21 they arrived there, the Serbs had withdrawn all their artillery from

22 Baljkovica. So I took advantage of that situation and sort of flew over

23 to the other side. I was so close. There were some hundred metres or so

24 where I could see the houses on the other side, but it was all a clearing

25 and I was afraid that someone might notice me.

Page 554

1 Q. Okay. So when you say the people from Srebrenica made a

2 breakthrough through Baljkovica, are those people from Srebrenica, is

3 that part of the column that you were speaking of earlier, the front of

4 the column?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And were there -- was that where the weapons were?

7 A. Well, most probably. I don't know. I wasn't with them.

8 Q. All right. And -- okay. Now let me take you back briefly to

9 something you mentioned. You said you didn't get any food during this

10 time, but let me ask you when you were at Sandici, the area next to this

11 asphalt road where you surrendered, did you see the Serb forces providing

12 anyone with any food?

13 A. No. There were people there, wounded people. They were crying

14 out, asking for them to be -- for their wounds to be dressed, but then

15 they moved and went on to another house and they never returned.

16 Q. Who were moved on to another house?

17 A. Well, the wounded people were taken to a house there. There were

18 some houses there some 200 metres away from us.

19 Q. And did you see any of the Muslims that were in that field with

20 you near Sandici get treated with any kind of first aid or medical or

21 receive any help of any kind?

22 A. No, no. They just offered a bottle of liquor and they offered a

23 few people to have a swig and maybe a cigarette or two, but there was no

24 food or any medical assistance provided.

25 Q. Was there some water provided at Sandici?

Page 555

1 A. Yes, they did bring water for us.

2 Q. Now, in that truck that you were in from the time you left

3 Sandici, you spent the night in that truck in Bratunac, and you were

4 taken to that truck the next morning to Orahovac, did anyone bring you

5 any food or anybody else in that truck bring you any food?

6 A. No. For the entire period since we had been captured, no one had

7 seen a crumb of food. They did give us water, not that evening but on

8 the next day, both in Bratunac and in Orahovac.

9 Q. Okay. So just to be clear, once you got to the school in

10 Orahovac, before you were put in an execution line, did anyone give

11 anybody any food in that gym or any medical attention of any sort that

12 you saw?

13 A. No, nobody. They just put a bucket for people to relieve

14 themselves and there was nothing else. They did bring water, but there

15 wasn't enough for everybody to fill themselves up.

16 Q. Okay. Now, going back briefly again to Sandici, did you see any

17 of the soldiers or police taking down names and making lists of the

18 Muslim men or prisoners?

19 A. No. They did not write down any of the prisoners. I don't know

20 about what happened in other locations. This is why the Serbs are

21 claiming that it wasn't that number of people who got killed. They don't

22 know exactly whom they killed and how many. They could have killed

23 people of any ethnicity. They asked whether there were any Serbs among

24 us, but there were none.

25 Q. All right. I'm just going to show you some photos that I know

Page 556

1 you've seen many times before in your previous testimonies, but let's put

2 them on your screen, so you should, I think, get your glasses out. The

3 first one is number 1129, 65 ter 1129. It should appear on your screen

4 and we're going to try to use that writing pencil that you used before,

5 but I want you to just take a look at this photograph to see if it means

6 anything to you.

7 And while we're waiting, do you remember how many times you've

8 come to The Hague to testify in the Srebrenica case?

9 A. This is my fifth time.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: I wonder if this can be blown up a bit. Thank

11 you.

12 Q. Now, just take a look at that. It's obviously winter.

13 A. We went out through this area here. This is where the ramp was

14 where we got on to the TAM truck.

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please wait a moment.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY:

17 Q. Hold on, it disappeared. This is our first photo of the trial,

18 so bear with us for a second. Could you just, to make it simple put a --

19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Court Officer will help you. Just a moment.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: He's an expert.

21 Q. Could you take that pen and just draw a big 1 where you entered

22 the school building, if you know, if you remember.

23 A. Well, here I don't see the area where we entered. I just know

24 that through this auxiliary building we were taken out. This is where

25 the truck was and this is where the wall was broken --

Page 557

1 Q. Hold on --

2 A. -- this is the gym. This is the fence of the yard.

3 Q. Could you put a 1 next to the place where you were taken out

4 where the wall was broken, where you've marked that red mark. Just put a

5 1 next to that so we know what you're talking about.

6 A. I made a big mess, but this -- here where the mark is.

7 Q. Let's erase this one and try again. It's all right. We'll get

8 it right. If you can, just put a 1 where you came out of the gym.

9 A. There.

10 Q. Okay. And -- that's good. And now let's save that, but can you

11 just put the number 007 on this thing. Just put 007, that will indicate

12 it's you, and just in the bottom right-hand corner, in the snow, put just

13 11/3/10, the date.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Well, that's not quite the snow, but that will do.

16 All right. Let's go to the next one and that is number 1128.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are you asking -- are you tendering this exhibit?

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: I was going to -- I have three of them. I was

19 going to do it at the end if that would be more convenient.

20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You should do that immediately.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.

22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Otherwise it's a danger to lose these markings.

23 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. I would offer this into evidence then

24 and the -- and 1129 which -- it was the ...

25 [Prosecution counsel confer]

Page 558

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. I hear no objection.

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This will be received.

3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And I think we had a discussion about the

5 information sheet, the hard copy, that should be uploaded and we would

6 receive that as well as an exhibit under seal.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. That's -- yes, that's uploaded and we

8 should offer that as well, 6188.

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received under seal.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.

11 THE REGISTRAR: The pseudonym sheet will be P42, under seal. And

12 the photograph marked by the witness will be P43.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay.

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please carry on.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. If we could go now to 65 ter 1128.

16 Q. Okay. Can you mark with a 2 if you recognise anything on this

17 photograph -- do you -- first of all, do you recognise this building?

18 A. Can you make it brighter?

19 Q. I'm afraid that's about as good as we get. And if you can't

20 recognise it, don't worry about it; if you can, let us know.

21 A. This is the entrance, and from here one went straight and then to

22 the left and then there was a door leading straight into the gym.

23 Q. Hold on. We've got another glitch. But just to try to make it

24 as simple as you can, can you put a 2 where you came out of the gym, if

25 you can see. Just put a 2 -- if you can see where you came out, just put

Page 559

1 a 2.

2 A. I did put a 2 but it's not showing.

3 Q. Well, we can see it, so it -- and that's just right. Can you

4 tell on this photograph the area where you went into the school? If not,

5 don't worry about it; if you can, put a 3.

6 A. I see. It's actually quite dark. I can't tell whether there's a

7 door there or not. It's really dark.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. I have hard time seeing without my glasses and my glasses are

10 really not the right prescription.

11 Q. Okay. Then we're fine. If you can just in the right-hand corner

12 put 007 again.

13 A. [Marks]

14 Q. That will work. And it's the same date, the 11 -- 11 March 2010.

15 A. [Marks]

16 Q. Okay. That's fine.

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer that into evidence.

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received, but let me ask, is it really

19 necessary to have the date and the pseudonym on the photo? I don't think

20 that this is really necessary?

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Ms. Stewart always has told me to do that,

22 Your Honour, but if -- that's just our practice and it's whatever you

23 wish, of course.

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Not to do that could simplify the procedure.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay, I'll try to see if I can remember why we do

Page 560

1 that. I'm sure there's a reason for it, but we'll sort it out. I've got

2 only two more, so we're almost finished.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just a moment. We wait for the number.

4 THE REGISTRAR: This will be P44.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay.

7 And if we could go to 65 ter 1134.

8 Q. [Microphone not activated]

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Microphone, please.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me.

12 Q. I don't need you to mark anything on this right away, but do you

13 recognise this picture?

14 A. Yes. These are the doors through which we came in. This

15 basketball hoop that's there now, I didn't see it back then; but

16 otherwise it's the gym as it was. These are the windows and then the

17 entire wall.

18 Q. And were you able to point anything out to Mr. Ruez when you were

19 there, do you remember?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. What did you point out to him, if you recall? You don't need to

22 mark the photo.

23 A. I showed everything to him as it was. I came there and nothing

24 had been done to the gym. There was some cupboards there that didn't

25 used to be when we were kept there. So everything was -- looked normal.

Page 568

1 going to address him, and I would like to say that with all due respect

2 for everything that he had gone through we nevertheless have to ask

3 certain questions in order to clarify the situation that he has been

4 describing because this situation and certain aspects can be perceived in

5 a variety of different ways. On my behalf, I would like to express my

6 condolences for all those who went through this ordeal.

7 If I may begin with my questions.

8 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

9 Q. [Interpretation] Witness told us here that later, after he had

10 reached the free territory, he learned from his brother that his brother

11 passed him by in the bus column that was moving from Sandici to Potocari.

12 I would like to ask him just to tell us a little bit more about this.

13 How is what was possible for his brother to see him?

14 A. Mr. Tolimir, my brother didn't see me. We were not moving from

15 Sandici to Potocari, but rather to Bratunac. He only saw people who were

16 captured, but he didn't see them.

17 Q. Where was he?

18 A. He was in a bus. My brother who managed to cross over, he was a

19 disabled person. He had -- he has sciatica and he was a disabled person.

20 He was not a military disabled person.

21 Q. Thank you. So he is talking about his brother who left --

22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I have to stop you here. You are

23 both speaking the same language. You should avoid overlapping in asking

24 and answering and -- for the sake of the interpretation. Just wait for

25 the moment the transcript stops.

Page 569

1 Now put your question.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

3 What I would like to know was whether his brother at the time was

4 in the bus along with those who were crossing from the Serbian territory

5 to the Muslim territory or was he in some other means of transportation.

6 That was not clear to me.

7 A. My brother was in Potocari. He had two crutches. That's how he

8 walked. While he was in Potocari a Serbian soldier told him, "Get on the

9 truck." And he said, "I can't do that." And then another one told him,

10 "Well, then, go and board a bus," and that's what he did. Luckily, he

11 managed to pass through.

12 Q. [Microphone not activated]

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please switch on your microphone. Mr. Tolimir,

15 you need your microphone. Your microphone, you should switch on your

16 microphone.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Witness, do you know anything about the agreement that was

20 reached at Fontana between representatives of Srebrenica and

21 representatives of the Serbian army?

22 A. No. They did not negotiate while we were in Srebrenica. If they

23 did negotiate, that took place only after the people had left Srebrenica.

24 Q. Thank you. Maybe you didn't understand me properly. We are

25 talking here about the fact that people were not allowed to leave

Page 570

1 Srebrenica before this agreement was informed.

2 A. Mr. Tolimir, you know that Mladic was negotiating at Fontana, in

3 Bratunac, with someone called Mandzic, I don't know. But we all had

4 already left except women and children. You held them as hostages

5 because if anything happened on the road you threatened to strangle all

6 the women and the children.

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, I have to ask you as well to stop and to

8 wait between -- not to answer immediately but to wait a little moment so

9 that the transcript and the interpreters can follow what you are

10 answering.

11 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I wanted to add, it's not because

12 I'm listening to the French, but I have the feeling that the witness is

13 talking to the accused and the witness should actually be talking and

14 looking at the Trial Chamber and not at the accused.

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please carry on, Mr. Tolimir.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

17 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18 Q. I would really like to clarify this situation which will enable

19 me to ask the following question. So can the answer -- can the witness

20 answer me whether in this column that was headed towards Tuzla knew that

21 there had been an agreement according to which those fit for military

22 services were supposed to surrender themselves as prisoners of war,

23 whereas the civilian population was to be -- was to be transferred to

24 Srebrenica?

25 A. [No interpretation]

Page 571

1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the answer

2 because there were overlapping speakers.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The witness didn't start with his answer.

4 Please answer the question.

5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Maybe it will help, but the last part would have

6 been not that the population was to be transferred to Srebrenica, but

7 that the population was to be transferred out of Srebrenica.

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Then you should please repeat your answer to the

9 last question, especially related to Srebrenica.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The people had left Srebrenica on

11 the 11th of July. They went to Potocari, which is 4 kilometres from

12 Srebrenica. So they were moving out of Srebrenica and heading towards

13 the liberated territory or the free territory.

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

15 Carry on, Mr. Tolimir.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

17 Obviously I cannot elicit an answer from the witness whether the Muslim

18 people and the army knew that an agreement had been reached at Fontana.

19 This is all I'm interested in because this is very important for my next

20 questions.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no, nobody told us anything

22 about this.

23 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Thank you. Since nobody told you anything about this agreement,

25 then you didn't know that you were in violation of this agreement because

Page 572

1 you didn't surrender and you embarked on a breakthrough.

2 A. Mr. Tolimir, we did surrender. Didn't you see us? Didn't you

3 see how we surrendered. Of the 1.000, only five or ten people managed to

4 survive. That was a divine intervention that these people were saved.

5 What are you trying to persuade us? We did surrender.

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, just -- you should put questions to

7 the witness and not make statements, and the last question was not a

8 question, in fact. Keep that in mind, please.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I asked

10 him whether the soldiers and the population of Srebrenica were aware

11 about the Fontana agreement. I'm not trying to make any assessments and

12 judgements about documents. I'm just asking --

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you must not explain anything. Just

14 ask questions. You must not explain why you are asking a question. Just

15 put questions to the witness. Please carry on.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would like to ask

17 you, Mr. President, what you told me just now, to say the same thing to

18 the witness. He is giving his own assessments, such as genocide and

19 things. It's not up to him to use this kind of terminology. It is up to

20 you to decide what terms are going to be used.

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, this is a question the Chamber has

22 to deal with. In this respect we don't need your guidance. Please carry

23 on asking questions.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

25 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 573

1 Q. My next question is: Did you personally know, as well as those

2 who were with you in the column, that an agreement had been reached at

3 Fontana between representatives of the Serbian army?

4 A. Please, don't ask me that. You ask someone else about this. If

5 I had known about this, I -- why should I have been such a foolish person

6 and risk losing my life? Don't say things that are inappropriate to say.

7 What are you talking about? What are you talking about Fontana for?

8 That was already a time when people were dead, while Mladic and the rest

9 of them were drinking whiskey at Fontana.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Witness, you should just answer the question. We

11 don't want to have debates on different positions. If the accused puts

12 questions to you, just answer; if you don't know that, then say "I don't

13 know." If you know, then tell the Chamber what you are -- what is your

14 knowledge.

15 I'm very sorry. Mr. Tolimir may ask the next question.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

17 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Witness, in your written statement and here in this courtroom

19 today, you said that in the evening a certain man came to see us and

20 somebody told you that that was Mladic.

21 A. 100 per cent.

22 Q. Did you know that man?

23 A. I didn't know him before that, but when I reached the free

24 territory and when I saw him on TV that was 100 per cent Mladic. And he

25 addressed us by saying, "Good evening, neighbours." Nobody else called

Page 574

1 us neighbours except him.

2 Q. Mr. Witness, can you recall anything else that Mladic told you,

3 apart from this word "neighbours"?

4 A. When he came he said, "Good evening, neighbours," and then he

5 said, "The governments are in negotiations and there will be an exchange

6 tomorrow, all for all." He also said, "You will get some water but no

7 supper." In my view, what he meant was that there will be blood. He

8 never mentioned food. Others mentioned food, but he thought that we

9 would have blood; but bread, definitely not.

10 Q. Thank you, Witness. You have answered my question, but I would

11 like to ask you to give me a yes or no answer and let us give a chance to

12 the Trial Chamber to make their own conclusions.

13 My next question is -- today you said that this young man decided

14 who to shoot and who -- whom he should not shoot. When this man said,

15 "You mustn't kill all these people," my question is: Do you believe that

16 this was also done according to his personal wish or according to

17 someone's orders?

18 A. I don't know whether he was ordered to do that or whether he

19 himself wanted to do that. I don't know.

20 Q. Thank you. Next question. You also said that a young man with a

21 black scarf let some children under the age of 15 and some women from the

22 column of the prisoners. Was that his own decision? Did he do that on

23 his own initiative or did he follow orders?

24 A. Probably at his own initiative. I don't think there was any of

25 his superiors present there.

Page 575

1 Q. Thank you. My next question is: Did you have the impression

2 that many of those individuals who imprisoned you, treated you and

3 decided on your life on their own initiative?

4 A. No. While we were in the school building they never physically

5 abused us. When other people came, probably officers dressed in

6 camouflage uniforms, that's when orders were issued to take people out to

7 be shot. So this was not done on their own initiative.

8 Q. Thank you. So you said from the moment when the people in

9 camouflage uniforms came and those who asked you, "Is there anyone here

10 from Zvornik," are you referring to those people?

11 A. Yes, I am.

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I think we need the second technical

13 break now. Is that a convenient time?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I have

15 no objection to that.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Then we adjourn and resume at 6.00.

17 --- Recess taken at 5.32 p.m.

18 --- On resuming at 6.03 p.m.

19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Chamber wants to come back to the last

20 document, the list of names we saw on the screen. Perhaps it was not

21 very clear the position the Chamber took, and especially after having

22 heard the objection of Mr. Tolimir. The Chamber will receive this one

23 page with the markings of this witness as an exhibit in evidence. And

24 the Prosecution should come back to the other part of this whole

25 document, this book, at a later stage when it seems to be appropriate.

Page 576

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

3 And, Mr. Tolimir, once again, please pause between the answer and

4 your next question and just recall that you should put questions to the

5 witness.

6 But I would like to say a word to the witness as well. The

7 accused, Mr. Tolimir, has the right to put questions to you and you

8 should -- and it is a very strange situation for you, I can imagine, but

9 you should just listen to the question and answer this question. That

10 would help the Chamber to find out the truth. Thank you very much.

11 Mr. Tolimir, please carry on with your cross-examination.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Could you

13 please just advise me how much time I have at my disposal. Can I use the

14 remainder of the day today for my question? Thank you.

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, of course it's up to you how many questions

16 do you have and we have time until 7.00.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18 MR. TOLIMIR:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, when you said here during your

20 testimony that on the sixth day you arrived in Baljkovica village, that

21 was on page 43, lines 44 -- 24 and 25 in the transcript, to the place

22 where the breakthrough occurred. However, you failed to mention on what

23 day it was that you were re-captured after Baljkovica. Thank you.

24 A. Well, I wasn't captured after Baljkovica. I was not taken

25 prisoner. I was taken prisoner at Sandici.

Page 577

1 Q. Thank you. I believe that you may provide a more precise answer.

2 Before you were taken to Batkovici, were you captured? Thank you.

3 A. Well, I never was in Batkovici. Where did you get that

4 information?

5 [Defence counsel confer]

6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Thank you. Tell me then about the breakthrough. You came to

8 Baljkovica. Where did you go next?

9 A. After the breakthrough was carried out, I went towards a village.

10 I can't recall the name. I went in the direction of Nezuk village.

11 Q. Tell me, please, were you in the part of the column, the front

12 part of the column that had broken through the line held by the Serb

13 forces in the direction of Tuzla or --

14 A. No, I wasn't with that column. I arrived after the column had

15 already gone by. The column probably broke through around 2.00 or 3.00

16 in the afternoon, and I arrived there in the evening.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before you answer the next question, please

18 pause. It is necessary for the sake of the interpretation, otherwise

19 your answer will not be heard.

20 Mr. Tolimir.

21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Witness, at the end of your evidence here today you said that the

23 president of the municipality was at the head of the column that was

24 advancing.

25 A. Well, no. I said that the leadership of the municipality was

Page 578

1 there, but I didn't say anything about him being either at the beginning

2 or middle of the column.

3 Q. Thank you. Can you then answer this: This leadership, municipal

4 leadership that was at the head of the column together with the armed

5 group that advanced before a part of the column actually hit an ambush

6 where 50 people were killed, was that column moving from Srebrenica?

7 A. I don't know about that. They headed from Susnjari, and I don't

8 know when exactly it was when they set off, whether it was at midnight or

9 before midnight. All I know is that I set off on the next day, on the

10 12th, with the last group. So we set off from Susnjari, the last group.

11 Q. Witness, you said that the room where you were held, where you

12 first had to leave your equipment, and when you were asked by my learned

13 colleague how many people were outside the school you said about 150 to

14 200. And then you said that once you entered the hall, you sat with your

15 backs to one another.

16 A. No. I said that there were lockers for about 200 people. I

17 don't know how many. Because they only took off their coats and jackets.

18 A person did not take all their clothes off. And as for those who

19 arrived, when it was ordered that they should be blindfolded, they

20 commanded that people who were up -- halfway in the hall, they should

21 turn one way and the people on the other half of the hall should turn

22 their -- towards the other wall in the opposite direction.

23 Q. Thank you. Now, tell me please whether -- I just want to check

24 if I understood you correctly. You said that the hall was 15 by

25 20 metres long. Thank you.

Page 579

1 A. Well, I didn't say how large it was. It was a gym and it was

2 measured at that point, but I don't know how -- what the measurements

3 were. It was probably 12 metres wide to 15 -- by 15 to 16 metres long,

4 but I don't recall it ever being actually written down how large it was.

5 Q. Very well. So you say that it was 12 to 15 metres long. You're

6 not sure. But can you tell me now, is it possible to fit 1.000 people in

7 that space?

8 A. Well, you know, the way we were crammed in, I think it is

9 possible. Because, you see, my -- as I was sitting, my knees were

10 actually up to my chin. They were against my breast, and I could -- if I

11 was able to count, I could count up to ten men, you know, along one row

12 and -- the length of the row and then also the width of the column. But

13 there were a lot of vehicles, and if each vehicle had 50 people at least

14 on it, and there were probably also people who were standing in the

15 vehicles, then you can see how many there were.

16 Q. Thank you. A few moments ago during your evidence you said that

17 there were about 500 to 1.000 people there. Could you please tell us

18 more specifically which of the two it is. I accept that you say -- if

19 you say 1 to 2, that's okay; but if you say 500 to 1.000, that's quite a

20 big difference. Now, could you tell us again, was it 500 people or

21 1.000?

22 A. Well, I don't really know. That was my estimate. But judging by

23 how long it took for those people to be killed, it took some seven to

24 eight hours, now you can take -- you can make the calculation yourself.

25 If there was at least 30 people on a truck at least -- per truck because

Page 580

1 there could be ten people per bench, so judging by the vehicles and the

2 number of people that got on them -- and then also there were people who

3 were there from before, this is my rough estimate. Now, whether it was

4 700 or 800 people, I can't really say with precision.

5 Q. Thank you. In your statement to the Prosecution on the 13th and

6 14th of August, 1995, under number 0079-8668, on page 2 you say:

7 "No one organised the evacuation of able-bodied men. According

8 to our then estimates there were around 15.000 men who were going through

9 the woods."

10 My question is this: Is it possible that no one organised the

11 evacuation of a column numbering 15.000 people?

12 A. Of course not. These people started -- they set off on their own

13 will, and even when it was -- when we heard that Srebrenica had fallen we

14 were going towards Susnjari and women and children were going towards

15 Potocari. How many people came from Suceska, I don't know. But if you

16 weren't there to see the huge number of people who were gathered there, I

17 don't really know. Maybe there were over 15.000 people or maybe not, but

18 this is a very rough estimate. Because, you see, when we showed up

19 there, we would fill two or three fields right away. And then when they

20 started putting these people in files and columns, then it was very

21 difficult to judge --

22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the last portion

23 of the witness's answer.

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The interpreters didn't catch the last portion of

25 your answer. Could you perhaps repeat the last two sentences.

Page 581

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, as I said, there were some

2 15.000 people there because if you consider how many people there were

3 there and that we couldn't set off right away, we only left at around

4 1.00, it was still day-time, and it is even possible that there were more

5 people than that. But most probably there were around 15.000 people

6 there.

7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Thank you. In your statement of July 1995, a few moments ago I

9 mentioned your August 1995 statement, but in your July witness -- in your

10 July statement, number 008483, you said the following:

11 "Able-bodied men were organised in order -- organised themselves

12 in order to leave Srebrenica" -- just a moment, please. Just wait for me

13 to finish my question.

14 Can you tell me, please, are these -- do these statements differ

15 because one was given in July and one in August, or is it about something

16 else? Where is this discrepancy arising from?

17 A. No, no --

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please pause. Please pause. We are still

19 waiting for interpretation. And now please start with your answer.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never said that able-bodied men

21 fit for military service organised themselves, because people had

22 problems. They had families, and as for me, I was over 40 even then, I

23 wasn't young. And as I said, I wasn't even capable. After being in

24 Srebrenica, I was so exhausted and I wondered whether I would be able to

25 reach Tuzla at all. Because if I were to show you a document which

Page 582

1 showed -- with a picture after I arrived from Srebrenica, you couldn't

2 believe what I looked like. I looked like a skeleton with just skin over

3 it.

4 [Defence counsel confer]

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours. My

6 assistant suggested that I repeat the ERN number of the July statement.

7 The ERN number that I asked to be posted, because it has not been

8 recorded in the transcript, that's number 0033-8483.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me, Mr. President. Could we ask -- I

10 think it should be known that if there's going to be repeated references

11 to previous statements, we will need to know the page and line in the

12 English as well as the Serbian so that we can make reference to it. I

13 haven't said anything at -- to this point, but if that could be borne in

14 mind in the future. Thank you.

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

16 I think you made a point. Even the Chamber has no possibility to

17 follow that way because we don't have these statements. Perhaps it is

18 possible to make a clear reference to the page numbers in both languages,

19 then we could perhaps, if you want to do that, call them up on the

20 screen.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I thank Mr. McCloskey. Could he

22 please take a look at 1D002, it's on the screen now.

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, I think we have a problem. We have to go to

24 private session if that is displayed on the screen.

25 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 583

1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We will manage not to broadcast it to the public,

2 only to have it on the screen in the courtroom, then this is possible.

3 We must not go into private session.

4 Please continue.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. This is

6 English version page 2, line 3. However, if this requires us to go into

7 private session, I will not put any questions concerning this. I will

8 skip over all of these questions. All I want is to ask this witness

9 about how these statements were written up.

10 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Witness, who wrote the statement that you gave to the Prosecutor?

12 A. I did.

13 Q. Did you type it?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you sign the version in the language that you understand or

16 did you sign the English version?

17 A. I think that I signed the English version, but it was interpreted

18 to me into my language. But perhaps what you're referring to is my

19 statement from Tuzla. But I don't remember whether I signed it in Tuzla

20 or not. I know that I signed the one that was in English.

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey --

22 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23 Q. I'm now referring to the document 00 --

24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just a moment.

25 Mr. McCloskey.

Page 584

1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yeah, the document on the screen was a statement

2 to the high court judge of Tuzla. He was speaking about the document to

3 the Prosecutor. The witness clarified it is why I sat down, but -- so

4 hopefully we can stay clear on which -- there's many, many statements

5 over 15 years and we need to be very clear which statement we're talking

6 about.

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

8 Carry on, Mr. Tolimir.

9 [Defence counsel confer]

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I was referring to

11 1D001, but if it's a problem I will not insist on it any longer.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, if I signed it, it is my

13 statement. I'm not going to disown it. It's just that it's been

14 15 years and I simply don't remember. I remember that it was in English

15 and they interpreted it for me, and maybe there was a problem with

16 interpretation. That's the only problem that could have been because I

17 would never say anything against somebody. I try very, very hard not to

18 do that. I read the solemn declaration that I would speak the truth, and

19 I tried to do that as a witness. And I try not to raise my voice.

20 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Thank you. I also want to ask you about your statement 0798668

22 [as interpreted], page 2, paragraph 6. Could we have it on the screen,

23 please.

24 You say there:

25 "I was in a group where there were 100 men. Most of them were

Page 585

1 civilians. There were a couple of soldiers and several wounded men."

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I have to stop you here. We don't

3 have it on the screen. Just wait a moment.

4 [Defence counsel confer]

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Do we have the 65 ter number of the document so

6 that it can be found?

7 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Microphone.

10 THE ACCUSED: Thank you. [Interpretation] Please look at 1D001,

11 page 2.

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now it appears on the screen. Please continue.

13 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14 Q. So my question is: Does it stem from your statements that the

15 column was established by civilians who were able-bodied and that there

16 were some soldiers in there? You said that there were about 500 rifles

17 there.

18 A. I said about 500 rifles, but perhaps some of those people

19 remained in the last column. However, they left the column immediately

20 and went on.

21 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me, did the mayor that you mentioned a

22 bit earlier have any role in the column? You said that he was at the

23 head of the column.

24 A. No, I didn't see him in the column at all, but I suppose that the

25 leadership left within the first groups.

Page 586

1 Q. Thank you. Witness, did you serve in the army?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. If it's not a problem to say that in public session, did you have

4 less than 50 years when you set out from Srebrenica?

5 A. Yes, I was younger than 50.

6 Q. Did you fall in the category of able-bodied men, fit for military

7 service?

8 A. Yes, based on my age, yes, but I was not a soldier.

9 Q. And you know that there is a category of those who are

10 able-bodied, fit for military service and for work, you know what age

11 that is?

12 A. Yes, from 18 until 60.

13 Q. Isn't it that 15-year-old children are already considered fit for

14 work?

15 A. No. Tell me which law specifies that, that the age limit for

16 that is 15.

17 Q. [Microphone not activated]

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

19 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20 Q. It's not necessary for us to debate on this. I just said that

21 15-year-olds are considered fit for work and people of age are

22 18-year-olds, but we don't need to discuss this. It's not necessary.

23 A. No.

24 Q. [Microphone not activated]

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

Page 587

1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Witness, since you went out in the field with Jean-Rene Ruez, did

3 he give you any suggestions when the statement was taken and drafted, the

4 statement that he co-signed?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Can you answer this, please: Were your families together with

7 you and your brothers in Srebrenica?

8 A. No.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I have

10 no further questions for this witness.

11 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Thank you, Witness, for your proper attitude. Thank you.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir.

14 Mr. McCloskey, do you have re-examination?

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Chamber would like to thank you that you

18 again were in the position to come to The Hague to testify here and to

19 help the Chamber find out the truth. Thank you very much again, and you

20 are now free to return to your home. Thank you very much and the

21 Court Officer will assist you.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We need to go into private session. I think so.

24 Now everything is prepared. Thank you very much.

25 [The witness withdrew]