Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 510

 1                           Thursday, 11 March 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon to everybody.

 6             Could the Registrar call the case, please.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Good morning.  This is

 8     case number IT-05-88/2-T, the Prosecutor versus Zdravko Tolimir.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

10             As this is the first day of our hearings of evidence, I would

11     kindly ask for appearances now.  For the Prosecution.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Good afternoon, everyone, Mr. President,

13     Your Honours.  My name is Peter McCloskey, and with me is Janet Stewart.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

15             And for the Defence.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] God bless you and peace to this

17     house.  My name is Zdravko Tolimir and my legal counsel is

18     Aleksandar Gajic.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

20             Before the first witness is being brought in, the Chamber would

21     like to raise the following matters.  The Chamber is seized of the

22     accused's request to the Trial Chamber concerning the role of the

23     accused's legal advisor, Mr. Gajic, filed in English on the 3rd of March,

24     2010, and has in the meantime received a response of the Prosecution and

25     the reply from the accused.  The Chamber has also received a Rule 33(B)

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 1     submission from OLAD which was filed only this morning.

 2             Firstly, the Chamber notes that you, Mr. Tolimir, have made this

 3     submission at a very late stage of these proceedings.  Taking into

 4     consideration the postponed commencement of this trial, this matter

 5     should have been brought to the Chamber's attention much earlier.

 6     However, as it is a very serious matter and as the Chamber has only

 7     recently received all relevant submissions, it will need to consider the

 8     accused's requests carefully and will render a written decision as soon

 9     as possible.

10             Secondly, the Chamber would like to issue an oral decision

11     concerning protective measures for the witness number 40.  This decision

12     relates to the Prosecution's confidential motion filed before the Chamber

13     on the 8th of March, 2010, concerning the continuation of protective

14     measures for Witness 40.

15             The Chamber reiterates that Rule 75(F)(i) provides that:

16             "Once protective measures have been ordered in respect of a

17     victim or witness in any proceedings before the Tribunal ... such

18     protective measures ... shall continue to have effect mutatis mutandis in

19     any other proceeding before the Tribunal ... unless and until they are

20     rescinded, varied, or augmented in accordance with the procedure set out

21     in Rule 75."

22             The Chamber notes that the Rules do not impose any obligation on

23     a party wishing to present the testimony of a witness subject to

24     protective measures to provide justification for their continuation.

25     Also, if such a party were to be obliged to justify the continuation of

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 1     the protective measures, Rule 75(F)(i) would in effect be nullified.

 2             If, however, a party were to seek to rescind, vary, or augment

 3     protective measures ordered in respect of a witness in any proceedings

 4     before the Tribunal, Rule 75(G)(i) requires this party to apply to the

 5     Chamber that initially ordered the protective measures in case it remains

 6     seized of the proceedings in which such an order was issued.

 7             The Chamber notes that the Trial Chamber in Popovic et al.

 8     remains seized of the proceedings in which it ordered the protective

 9     measures for Witness 40, and therefore is competent to rescind, vary, or

10     augment those protective measures.  The present Chamber would therefore

11     not be competent to vary, augment, or rescind protective measures

12     concerning Witness 40.

13             Since the protective measures ordered for Witness 40 in the

14     Popovic et al. case have not been rescinded, varied, or augmented in

15     accordance with the procedure set out in Rule 75, these protective

16     measures continue to have effect in the instant case.  The motion of the

17     Prosecution is accordingly granted.

18             Furthermore, the Chamber would like to inform the parties that we

19     will not sit in the week after Easter, in order to enable everybody to

20     celebrate these holidays appropriately.  The last hearing before will be

21     on the 30th of March and the first after Easter on the 14th of April.

22             And, Mr. Tolimir, the Chamber is still seized of your request to

23     change the hearing time for the 29th of March.  We hope to find a way to

24     reschedule the hearing of that day.

25             Finally, I would like to inform the parties that we have a

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 1     limited sitting time tomorrow evening.  Due to another commitment, we

 2     will have to adjourn shortly after 6.00 p.m. tomorrow, and please keep in

 3     mind that we will usually, and today, have two breaks, the first at 3.45

 4     and the second at 5.30 if that seems to be convenient for everybody.  If

 5     the parties would prefer different sitting times and break times, then

 6     the Chamber will consider this.

 7             Could the witness please now be brought in.

 8                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private session, please.

10                           [Private session]

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21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, first I would like to tell you the Chamber

24     has granted protective measures.  You should be aware of that.  Thank

25     you.

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 1             Mr. McCloskey for the Prosecution has some questions for you.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3                           Examination by Mr. McCloskey:

 4        Q.   Sir, I will be referring to you as "witness," as you know is the

 5     practice here.  But the first thing I want to do is show you this sheet

 6     of paper, which is 65 ter 6118.  And can you tell us if that is your

 7     name?

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And we'll get our practice down.  I'm sorry.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:

11        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if we could go into private session for the

13     first few questions.  I think that would keep the protective measures in

14     place.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

16                           [Private session]

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23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:

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 1        Q.   All right.  Can you tell us where you settled around Srebrenica.

 2     We know it's a big -- it was a big area.

 3        A.   When we arrived in Srebrenica, there was a Bosniak there, and in

 4     Kazani near the graveyard, he was waiting there, and he offered

 5     accommodation.  He made an arrangement with my older brother and we

 6     stayed with this man in his house until the fall of Srebrenica.

 7        Q.   And we know that Srebrenica is a town in a narrow valley.  Was

 8     this in the town itself or was it in one of the little villages or rural

 9     areas outside the town?

10        A.   No, no, we lived in the town near the hospital, near the two

11     high-rise buildings.  Anyone who knows Srebrenica knows what I'm talking

12     about.  It was closer to the UNPROFOR base, and that is town proper.

13        Q.   All right.  Now, let me take you to July 1995 and ask you:  Were

14     you living in this same place in July 1995?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And were you in the BiH army, the Muslim army at that time?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   And what did you do to sustain yourself, to feed yourself and

19     your brothers?

20        A.   Well, we were sowing land, that was Serbian land that had been

21     abandoned, and we were working the land.  That's how we sustained

22     ourselves, in addition to receiving some of humanitarian aid.

23        Q.   All right.  And at some point in July 1995, did you decide to

24     leave your home once again?

25        A.   Well, we had to.  That wasn't our decision of our own accord.  We

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 1     just had to go.

 2        Q.   Why was that?

 3        A.   Because the Serbian forces were pushing to take and capture

 4     Srebrenica at any cost, and that is the reason why we had to leave.

 5        Q.   Why wouldn't you continue to want to live in Srebrenica if it had

 6     become controlled by the Serbian forces?

 7        A.   Nobody remained in Srebrenica.  Nobody dared remain except

 8     handicapped people, which they, the Serbian forces, probably killed if

 9     they came across such handicapped people.  Everybody else had to leave.

10        Q.   You said "nobody dared."  What were people afraid of -- and

11     yourself I'm mostly concerned about.

12        A.   Well, we were afraid of what actually happened to us.  We were

13     afraid of dying, and this is exactly what happened to us later on.

14        Q.   Okay.  Can you tell us what course of action you took and when.

15     You remember the dates well, I believe.

16        A.   On the 11th of July, that was a Tuesday, we decided to leave.

17     Those fit for military service decided to go through the woods, while the

18     elder men, women, and children decided to go to Potocari, and they also

19     took to the woods.

20        Q.   Okay.  Prior to this had there been any military action or -- in

21     and around the town of Srebrenica where you were?

22        A.   I don't know.  I heard from other people that there was some

23     action outside of town, but not in the town itself.

24        Q.   Okay.  And was there any shelling that you heard about?

25        A.   Yes, there was.  On that day, the 11th of July, I saw the footage

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 1     that was played here in the courtroom.  I saw women entering the UNPROFOR

 2     compound.  They were around some trucks, and you can see that there was a

 3     shell that had landed approximately 100 metres from the UNPROFOR base.

 4        Q.   Okay.  It's important, Witness, to distinguish between what you

 5     actually saw at the time and what you may have seen in video later.  The

 6     Court will be able to see these videos, and so what we want from you now

 7     is what you remember seeing and happening to you --

 8        A.   At that moment when the shell landed, there was a crowd of people

 9     headed for Potocari.  There was no transportation provided for them, and

10     the distance was about 4 kilometres.  When this mortar landed above the

11     UNPROFOR base, all the women and children tried to find shelter in the

12     UNPROFOR base and their trucks.  I saw it with my own eyes, but that was

13     the time when I was leaving Srebrenica.

14        Q.   Okay.  And who did you leave Srebrenica with on this day, the

15     11th?

16        A.   With my brother Nurif.

17        Q.   And where did you go?

18        A.   We went to Susnjari, through woods and meadows.

19        Q.   And why did you go there?

20        A.   Well, everybody decided to take that route, not to Tuzla but

21     rather to Susnjari.

22        Q.   Did you get any idea of roughly how many people gathered around

23     the area of Susnjari on these -- on this day, the 11th?

24        A.   According to some rough estimates, there should have been at

25     least 15.000 people.

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 1        Q.   And where did you get this rough estimate from?

 2        A.   Well, that's what we did discuss amongst ourselves.  We just

 3     tried to reach a certain figure because if you think that a football

 4     stadium can accommodate 15.000 people, that was the kind of bench-mark

 5     for us to make this estimate.

 6        Q.   And how many of those people were armed with rifles or some gun

 7     of some sort roughly?

 8        A.   Between 200 and 500 rifles they had, but only rifles.

 9        Q.   And what happened up there on the 11th, what did you do?  What

10     did the rest of the group do?

11        A.   We arrived in the evening of the 11th to Susnjari.  Some left

12     immediately during the night, and I myself left Susnjari the next day,

13     that is, the 12th of July.

14        Q.   And left going where?

15        A.   Towards Tuzla.

16        Q.   And who was with you?

17        A.   My brother who never returned.

18        Q.   And were you with a lot of other people?

19        A.   Yes, of course.  There was a column, an endless column.

20        Q.   Do you know roughly where you were in this endless column,

21     beginning, middle, end?

22        A.   I was at the rear end of the column.

23        Q.   All right.  And can you just briefly describe to us what you did

24     on that 12th when you set off with the column through the woods towards

25     Tuzla, with your brother and this other group.

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 1        A.   We walked until darkness.  That was a thick forest, and I spent

 2     the night under a beech tree because I didn't sleep the previous night

 3     because there was panic everywhere.  So I slept the whole night there.

 4        Q.   Did you know the area at all, what features or other areas,

 5     anything about it?

 6        A.   No, no.  I was in that area for the first time in my life.

 7        Q.   And can you give us an idea of how hot was it on this -- these

 8     July days and nights?

 9        A.   No, not at night.  It was hot during the night -- during the day,

10     but not at night.  Nights were rather chilly.

11        Q.   And on your walk on the 12th, were you fired upon by any weapons?

12        A.   They were firing on us, but I didn't feel the bullets passing

13     next to us; they were falling astray, somewhere behind us.

14        Q.   All right.  And when you woke up on the morning of the 13th, can

15     you tell us what you did.

16        A.   When I woke up that morning, I saw some people coming back and

17     some were going forward, and I went a little bit back with this group

18     that was retreating.  After that, I again saw a group moving forward.

19     But my brother wasn't there any longer.  I returned again to the group

20     that was going forward and I saw many more people there, including my

21     brother.

22        Q.   Then what did you do?

23        A.   We were sitting there and the Serb started calling upon us

24     through the megaphone to surrender.  Since we ourselves didn't have a

25     megaphone, we had to shout very loudly, "Yes, we shall do that but to the

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 1     UNPROFOR and the Red Cross."  They didn't respond anything to that.  They

 2     only gave us an ultimatum, which was to expire at 10.00 and at which time

 3     they said they would attack us.  After 10.00 they again started calling

 4     us.  People again asked for UNPROFOR and the Red Cross, and they gave us

 5     a new dead-line which was 1500 hours.  Then people started discussing

 6     whether to surrender or not.

 7             We thought there was no way out of that situation, and it was

 8     decided for us to surrender.  I saw people carrying a white T-shirt

 9     attached to a staff as a sign of surrender.  Then we went through a wood,

10     and when we came to a field we saw a lot of dead bodies.  That was

11     probably where an ambush had been set for this first group, and we didn't

12     know anything about this because we were at the rear end of the column.

13             While we were descended, it was a very steep slope and we went

14     down to a river.  First we had a lot of water to drink.  When we came

15     down there, there were Serbian soldiers awaiting us.  These Serbian

16     soldiers immediately asked us to give them money.  They were asking us to

17     give them US dollars, German marks, and any currency, and they said, "If

18     you don't give it to us, those who were your predecessors were --

19     actually, you will fare in the same way as your predecessors," but I

20     don't know who those predecessors were.

21             Once we reached the road, we had our hands up in the air.  They

22     lined us along the road, and that is when women and children arrived in

23     buses.  There was not a single adult male among them.  There was my

24     wife's aunt and another woman that I knew from before.  We were told to

25     take out everything from our pockets.  At the time I was smoking tobacco

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 1     and I threw that tobacco and the lighter on the road.  Another soldier

 2     told us, "You better take this, you might need it."

 3        Q.   Okay.  Let me stop you there.  You said the decision was made for

 4     you to surrender.  Do you know who made that decision for you?

 5        A.   We ourselves amongst us decided it.

 6        Q.   Was there any military people among the group you were in, any

 7     Bosnian Muslim military people?

 8        A.   No, no.  Those who had some weapons, they had left with the first

 9     group and they had moved through.  And they were lucky because they had

10     the weapons, whereas we didn't have anything and we could be killed by

11     anyone.

12        Q.   Okay.  This road where you went down and surrendered, was this

13     a -- what was this road made out of?  What kind of road was it?

14        A.   Well, as we kept going down the slope, we went through the woods,

15     and then we crossed one or two fields, and then we reached a paved road,

16     the main road that led from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje.

17        Q.   All right.  And is this -- where was the area that you saw the

18     women and children being transported?

19        A.   Well, that was at the place where we surrendered, around Sandici

20     approximately.

21        Q.   Is that at the asphalt road at Sandici?

22        A.   Yes, yes, on that asphalt road.

23        Q.   And do you know just roughly what time of day it was that you got

24     down to the Sandici area on the asphalt road?

25        A.   Well, it was perhaps 3.00 or 4.00 in the afternoon.  It was in

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 1     the afternoon.

 2        Q.   Now, did people in your group have back-packs, any personal

 3     belongings with them?

 4        A.   Yes, we had them.  I had a back-pack myself, and we when we -- as

 5     we were getting ready to step on to the asphalt road they said, "Why

 6     don't you just throw your back-packs there, by the side of the road, and

 7     they will follow you."

 8        Q.   Okay.  And just to be clear for our record, when you say "they,"

 9     who was the one who told you to throw your stuff by the road?

10        A.   Well, Serb soldiers.

11        Q.   Now, what happened in the afternoon there at Sandici with this --

12     your group that had surrendered?

13        A.   Well, when we surrendered, we actually reached an elevation some

14     hundred metres away from the road, and there were rows and rows of

15     people - I don't know how many.  There was an APC there and a Serb

16     soldier, a very young soldier, who had a black kerchief around his head.

17     I don't know what that was supposed to mean, but he was in charge.

18     Whenever a group arrived or ran across, then he would tell the group,

19     "Tomorrow you will be exchanged, all for all."

20             And as we were sitting in rows, there was a soldier by every

21     single row, one on the one side and another on the other side.  There

22     were -- in our row there were two women and a young woman and a young

23     boy, he was that woman's son.  And the soldier with a black kerchief said

24     to the woman, "There are buses down there."  Then the young girl and the

25     other young girl, who was very pretty, got up and the Serb soldier

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 1     started saying, "No, no, leave them behind, we need her."  Well, this guy

 2     wasn't really paying any attention to them.  He said, "Just go to the

 3     bus."  And he let go probably some 10 or so more boys, who were up to

 4     15 years of age.  And then there was another boy, I don't know how old he

 5     was, I didn't dare turn around.  He said, "No, no, you remain seated.

 6     You are able to carry a machine-gun."

 7        Q.   Okay.  Did you see any more military equipment beside this APC,

 8     armoured personnel carrier?

 9        A.   Well, no, it's just that they were armed, they had rifles.  And

10     when another group was supposed to come over as a new shift, they started

11     saying, "Well, here are Arkan's men."  I couldn't really tell what kind

12     of insignia they had on their uniforms.  I just noticed that they had new

13     uniforms.

14        Q.   And could you see any buses or trucks moving along the road with

15     women and children in them?

16        A.   No, we couldn't see the road from where we were.

17        Q.   And what happened then after you were placed in this meadow with

18     this big group of people?

19        A.   Well, while we were there, on that meadow, they ordered us to lie

20     down on our stomachs.  We all did.  And they told us we should keep

21     calling "Allahu Akbar," which is a Muslim prayer.  Then they began to

22     yell at us, saying, "This is not Srebrenica."  And then they told us to

23     start calling out, "Long live the king."  Well, people started doing

24     that, I don't know if I did myself, but in any case they couldn't tell

25     who was actually calling out and who wasn't.

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 1             And I -- all this time I had this thought in the back of my mind

 2     that they weren't going to shoot us in that position.  But we know that

 3     there were instances where - and that's what happened in Zvornik and

 4     that's how my brother-in-law was killed - they just ordered people to lie

 5     down on their stomachs, and then -- women and men and children, and then

 6     they just shot them in the back.  And that's -- I know about this because

 7     I was told by my brother-in-law.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Well, I don't want to ask you about Zvornik and what

 9     happened in 1992 or what was told to you, but what did you think was

10     going to happen to you when you were all told to lie down on your

11     stomachs and say these things?

12        A.   Well, I thought that they weren't going to shoot us because there

13     was a soldier -- well, there would have to be a soldier coming along the

14     rows from one side and another from the other end on the other side if

15     they were going to shoot us, but they didn't do that so I thought they

16     wouldn't.

17        Q.   So what happened then?

18        A.   After this, people started yelling, "Here's Mladic, here's Mladic

19     coming."  Up until then I hadn't seen Mladic ever.  I was in Srebrenica.

20     I didn't watch TV and I didn't know the man from before or what he looked

21     like, but he came along, he came with a few soldiers with him, and he

22     called out to us and said, "Good evening, neighbours."  And he said,

23     "Tomorrow you will be exchanged, everyone will be exchanged, all for

24     all."  And we said, "Thank you, commander."  And we started clapping our

25     hands.  Then he left, and soon afterwards they ordered us -- they ordered

Page 528

 1     the first row, the first line of people, to climb on to the vehicle and

 2     then the second row, third, and so on, up until it came my turn.  And

 3     then as I came on to the road they started yelling, "You have to get on

 4     to this truck."  And it so happened that I ended up being in the trailer

 5     of the truck.  And then I saw a young soldier, maybe up -- not older than

 6     30.  He had a short beard and a black bandanna, and he said, "I will go

 7     with this -- on this truck and go with the soldier."  He didn't address

 8     us.

 9             So as soon as the vehicle would be filled with people, it would

10     leave.  Soon night fell and we had no idea where we were going.  Vehicles

11     passed us by.  We could just see the lights, the headlights of vehicles

12     passing us by.  We headed towards Bratunac, and when we arrived there, on

13     the left-hand side one could see buildings up to three to four storeys

14     high, but on the right-hand side we couldn't see any buildings.  The

15     vehicle -- they parked the vehicle at the end of the street or on the

16     side of the street actually.  And one of them, the driver, who was a

17     driver and who was with us in the trailer, said, "These are Vihor

18     garages."

19             Soon after that they began asking for people from the Srebrenica

20     villages to come out, Pusmulici, Glogova, Slatina, Konjevic Polje, and so

21     on, a number of other villages, I don't know anymore which, and as soon

22     as these people would step forward they would ask for their father's

23     name and then take them away.

24        Q.   Let me interrupt you briefly.  You said "they asked," who were

25     these "they"?

Page 529

 1        A.   Serb soldiers.

 2        Q.   Can you tell us -- you said there's a truck with a trailer.  Can

 3     you give us an idea how big this truck and trailer was so we can get a

 4     picture.  Is it a big construction or a small little personal truck and

 5     trailer?

 6        A.   No, no, these were trucks.  These were big construction trucks

 7     that would transport iron ore or coal and so on.  They were big, maybe

 8     12 or 13 metres long.  They're big trucks.  But the trailer was also very

 9     big, it was at least 10 metres long.  So if you're sitting on the truck,

10     you wouldn't see a person sitting in the cab.

11        Q.   So could you see over the top of the trailer where you were held

12     or -- if you stood up?

13        A.   Well, we didn't know where we were headed.  That's why I was

14     saying we just noticed -- and again, the brother of mine who came back,

15     he said that he had seen people between Bratunac and Glogova.  He was on

16     the bus, and he was the one who told me, "Well, here they just drove away

17     captured people."

18        Q.   Let me just clear something up.  You said someone came back and

19     told you this.  Who was it?

20        A.   No, no, my brother said, once I reached the free territory, that

21     he had seen when those buses and trucks drove off towards Bratunac.

22        Q.   Okay.  That's why I needed to clarify that.  Let's just try to

23     stay right in Bratunac at the moment.  But can you tell us how high the

24     sides of this trailer were in -- that you were in?

25        A.   Well, they were perhaps 1 metre high.

Page 530

 1        Q.   And did -- were you able to stand up and look over?

 2        A.   We didn't dare stand up.  No one dared even place their arm over

 3     this side of the truck.  If they did that, they would be just hit with

 4     the rifle-butt.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Well, then tell us what happened as -- you've said that

 6     the Serb soldiers were calling people out from Srebrenica villages.  Did

 7     anybody respond?

 8        A.   Yes, people responded, and then they would take that person

 9     upward, they would take them away; and then we would hear a strong thud.

10     And then you could hear cries.  They would start yelling, "Stop that,

11     stop that," then you would hear a gun-shot, and then there would be

12     silence.  And that's how it went on that whole night.

13        Q.   Did any of the people that left during the night like this come

14     back, any of the Muslims?

15        A.   No, no.

16        Q.   And what happened in the morning?  And this would be now the

17     morning of the 14th.

18        A.   Well, in the morning when it grew lighter, the Serb soldiers

19     started yelling, "Don't allow civilians to go up to that street."  They

20     were probably afraid that one of the civilians would then report what

21     they had seen there and what had happened.  They told us then, "Now, take

22     them to Fikret and Alija and exchange them."

23        Q.   And then what happened?

24        A.   [No interpretation]

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can I stop you here.  We don't receive

Page 531

 1     interpretation at the moment.

 2             Try it again.  Is there interpretation?

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Can you hear me?

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please continue.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 6        Q.   Let's start over.  There was a little interpretation glitch.  So

 7     can you tell us, that morning, after these comments about Alija, what

 8     happened?

 9        A.   Well, as I've already said, they said that these people should

10     now be taken to Fikret and Alija and exchanged.  The trucks and buses set

11     off, and then as they reached the edge of Bratunac they were stopped

12     again.  And then they said, "We're waiting for UNPROFOR."  It got really

13     hot there because the sides of the truck were metal, the sun was shining.

14     And the driver who drove us and another young man from Bratunac brought

15     water for us, they gave us water, but we were so thirsty that we never

16     had enough.  They kept bringing water, but it wasn't enough to slake our

17     thirst.  The young man who was from Bratunac started asking about a man

18     Ismet, last name Ramic, who was a shoemaker, started asking about him.

19     And then somebody asked him, "Well, why are you asking about him?"  And

20     he said, "Well, he was my neighbour."

21        Q.   And how long did this group of vehicles stay there?

22        A.   Well, to tell you the truth I didn't have a watch, but it took a

23     while.

24        Q.   And can you tell us roughly what time in the morning it -- the

25     trucks first started moving before it stopped at this place?

Page 532

 1        A.   Well, that was very early.  It could have been 6.00 or 6.30 in

 2     the morning.  It was very early.

 3        Q.   So then it stops for a while and then what happens?

 4        A.   After this, when neither UNPROFOR appeared nor anyone, there was

 5     a group of civilians, Serb civilians, who appeared, elderly people.  Some

 6     of them were in uniforms, others weren't, and they were on a truck.  It

 7     was an old Srebrenica truck that people used to transport humanitarian

 8     aid.  And this group, they said, "They're coming behind us."  What they

 9     meant by that I really don't know.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  These are ours.

11     What they meant by that I don't know.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:

13        Q.   And then what happened?

14        A.   Then a column started.  We stopped just once for maybe five

15     minutes, and then the column moved forward towards Konjevic Polje.  And

16     as we were walking [as interpreted] towards Konjevic Polje and climbing

17     up the hill, it was only then that we could actually see.  I don't know

18     whether there were five trucks or ten trucks, but as we were driving and

19     we were up on the hill, then we could see the entire column.

20        Q.   And roughly what could you see when you saw this entire column,

21     can you give us an idea of the size?

22        A.   We could see that there were three armoured vehicles in one

23     place.  I don't know whether they were waiting for somebody or not, but

24     they were there, and it was then that we set out towards Konjevic Polje.

25        Q.   Now, in the English a while back, it said that you were walking

Page 533

 1     up the hill.  Were you ever walking at this point or that may have just

 2     been a translation mistake?

 3        A.   We were driving.  We were driving.

 4        Q.   Okay.  And where did you -- where did this column of vehicles go

 5     towards from Konjevic Polje?

 6        A.   Towards Zvornik.

 7        Q.   And where is the next place it stopped?

 8        A.   Well, when we came to Josanica, one could see Divic from there,

 9     and some people started yelling that there was an APC of the UN in front

10     of the Vidikovac hotel that joined us.  We passed through Divic -- it

11     wasn't called Divic at the time, it was called St. Stephen, Sveti Stefan.

12     It was quite steep, and when I looked back I could see that the sign read

13     "Sveti Stefan."

14        Q.   And is this place a little village just south of Zvornik, right

15     on the cliffs above the Drina River?

16        A.   Yes, yes, it's right by the Drina River, right next to it.

17     It's -- it has about 3 to 4.000 inhabitants.  It's quite densely

18     populated.  Houses are very close to each other.

19        Q.   And what colour was this APC that you saw?

20        A.   It was white.

21        Q.   And where did your vehicles go from Divic?

22        A.   We moved back to Zvornik, and from there to Karakaj.  And then

23     from Karakaj, the trucks turned left towards Tuzla.  We drove for a short

24     period of time, and then the trucks turned to the right.

25        Q.   And when they turned to the -- was the -- the road when you went

Page 534

 1     towards Tuzla, was that a small road or a main road, the one going

 2     towards Tuzla?

 3        A.   It was the main road from Zvornik to Tuzla, and the one that we

 4     were on was a minor road, regional road.

 5        Q.   And before you turned off on this minor road, where did you think

 6     you were going?

 7        A.   Well, when they started towards Tuzla -- and prior to that they

 8     kept promising that we would be exchanged.  And at that point in time I

 9     truly thought that they were going to exchange us.

10        Q.   So when you returned right onto this minor road, where did you

11     go?

12        A.   We went to this village called Orahovac.

13        Q.   Where in particular?

14        A.   To the elementary school in Orahovac.

15        Q.   And what happened when your vehicle got there?

16        A.   When we came in front of the yard, the vehicles would enter one

17     by one or perhaps two or three at the same time into the yard.  They

18     would unload the prisoners, and prisoners would need to run into the

19     school building.  When our turn came, we entered the -- the yard and the

20     UN APC did not have the UN sign anymore.  It just had a C remaining

21     there.  And there were two soldiers with automatic weapons, and then

22     there was a civilian there, between 50 and 55 years of age, moving about.

23     None of them said anything to anyone.  There were Serbian soldiers there.

24     Now, whether they captured the UN APC, I don't know.

25             When we got off the truck, we were ordered to run into the school

Page 535

 1     building.  When I was just in front of the door, I had a leather jacket

 2     on me and they told me to take the jacket off.  And I took it off and I

 3     put it on a pile of other clothing, and I entered through the hallway.

 4     We went straight for a while and then we turned left.  It was a long

 5     hallway that took us to the gym.

 6        Q.   Now, when someone told you to take off your coat, was that a

 7     civilian or a military person?

 8        A.   A military person.  Civilians did not interfere into anything

 9     there.  There were civilians just standing and watching but not saying

10     anything to us.

11        Q.   Were you able to get any idea of how many soldiers were standing

12     around as you got hustled off the bus and moved into the school?

13        A.   Well, both the police and the soldiers, there were perhaps up to

14     50 of them.

15        Q.   How did you distinguish police from soldiers?

16        A.   Well, policemen had grey-olive uniforms and soldiers had green

17     multi-coloured uniforms.  Later on when the corridor was opened, I saw

18     what uniform policemen had because we only had one police where we lived,

19     not more.

20        Q.   And when a military man told you to take off your jacket and put

21     it in that -- that pile, can you give us some idea about how big a pile

22     of belongings were of other people?

23        A.   It was a large pile, perhaps hundred to 200 people had taken

24     their clothes off.

25        Q.   All right.  Can you describe what the gym was like when you got

Page 536

 1     in.

 2        A.   When we entered the gym, it was more than half full, and as

 3     people entered they would sit down.  And we would sit down in such a way

 4     as to have our knees touch our chest.

 5        Q.   And, you know, we say "gym," but can you describe what sort of

 6     facility this was?

 7        A.   Well, you know, in elementary schools there's a sports hall where

 8     kids have physical education.

 9        Q.   Were there basketball backboards there?

10        A.   I didn't see them then.

11        Q.   Okay.  And what happened when you got in and had to sit like you

12     described?  Tell us what else happened.

13        A.   Well, when everybody entered the gym, they put a blanket down and

14     four young boys sat there.  They were between 10 and 14 years of age, I

15     would say.  When I crossed into the free territory I immediately asked

16     whether four kids had been released, and I was told that yes.  That means

17     that if they hadn't released those four kids they would have killed

18     people from 10 to 80 years of age because people who were there had been

19     brought in from Potocari.

20        Q.   Okay.  So what happened after you saw these kids were on the --

21     they were allowed to sit on a blanket.  What happened to everybody else

22     as you were there?

23        A.   They would pick out prisoners to bring water for us, and they

24     would bring water.  And then after a long period of time a delegation of

25     officers or some other persons like that came, and one of them asked

Page 537

 1     whether there was anybody there from the Zvornik municipality and nobody

 2     responded.  Then they ordered that four rows should get up.  Those were

 3     the elderly from Potocari.  And they told them to turn around, face the

 4     wall, and have their backs towards the door.  Then they called another

 5     four rows and then another four rows.  And when my turn came, when four

 6     of my rows got up, we faced in the other direction and our backs were

 7     turned towards the exit where there was Serbian soldiers and a woman.

 8     And then they brought a lot of cloth, and it went on until one of us

 9     prisoners said, "You must not kill these people."

10             It was mostly young men standing at the door, 18 or younger,

11     Serbian soldiers, and they all held their rifles in their hands like

12     that.  And the one that uttered those words, he was maybe 25.  And then

13     they said, "Well, who says so?"  And the man again repeated the same

14     words.  And then they said, "Well, we'll see whether we must or we must

15     not," and then they told them to get up.  He had black trousers on him

16     and a shirt similar to mine.  They took him out of the gym.  We heard

17     rifle shots and the man screamed, and then more shots and then silence.

18     Then they took out a young man again, 20 to 25.  I don't know why they

19     took him out.  Again we heard rifle shots and the man never re-appeared.

20             They stopped the water from being brought in.  I guess they

21     needed time to clear that away, and then they started putting blindfolds

22     on us.  And we would go into this room that was L-shaped.  Before that

23     people asked them, "Where are you taking these people?"  And they

24     responded, "To Bijeljina, to a camp there."  Nobody put any questions

25     after that.

Page 538

 1        Q.   Okay.  Let me stop you for just one minute.  In one of your

 2     statements within a year or so after the events, it appears from that --

 3     in the statement that the people that were -- got up that said, "Don't

 4     kill any of us," that they were killed in the gym in front of you.  Is

 5     that correct, or is your recollection now that they were actually taken

 6     outside and that's when you heard shots?

 7        A.   No, no.  I never said that he was killed in the gym.  He was

 8     taken out, and the other one was taken out as well.  Right there, I only

 9     saw them slap one man.  Why they slapped him, I don't know.  People

10     addressed the soldiers.  They would say, "Soldiers."  And they would

11     respond saying, "We are not soldiers.  We are Karadzic's Chetniks."  So

12     nobody was killed there.  People were taken out in front of the school

13     building.

14        Q.   And can you tell us, in this gym, how full was it with Muslims?

15        A.   Well, we had to sit with our knees against our chests, and there

16     were between 500 and 1.000 people there.

17        Q.   So was there any empty space in this gym or was it pretty full

18     up?

19        A.   There, when all of us were there in the gym, you couldn't throw a

20     matchstick and have it fall on the floor, and that was before people

21     started going out.

22        Q.   And how hot was it in that gym that you were there?

23        A.   It was so hot that people started complaining.  You could just

24     hear a rumour, and then Serbian soldiers would fire on the wall to make

25     them go quiet again.

Page 539

 1        Q.   And you mentioned that there was some elderly men from Potocari.

 2     So when you say "elderly," how old did you mean?

 3        A.   Well, there was a man from my village, I knew him, he was 70.

 4     And these people were between 60- and 70-something.  I know that this one

 5     man from my village was 70.

 6        Q.   And when you say from Potocari, what did you mean by that?

 7        A.   Well, the people who had left with women and children as not fit

 8     for the army service, it was them, not just those who went to Orahovac.

 9     Everywhere, at every location, young and old alike were killed.

10        Q.   And how did you know that these men were from the group that went

11     with the women and children to Potocari?  Did you know that at the time

12     or is that something you learned later?

13        A.   No, no.  We knew immediately that those people had gone with

14     women and children because they were so frail that they couldn't walk

15     5 kilometres in the whole day, let alone 100 kilometres from Srebrenica.

16        Q.   So can you give us any kind of a rough time estimate of when you

17     actually first got to this school.  When your truck first pulled up to

18     the school, do you know roughly what time of day it was?

19        A.   It was in the afternoon.  It was in the afternoon.  But I didn't

20     have a watch on me, so I don't know what time it was.

21        Q.   And how long were you jammed in this gym until you were stood up

22     and blindfolded and put in this L-shaped room?

23        A.   I don't know how long we spent there, but when I came out there

24     was maybe one hour before it fell dark.  I don't know whether we were

25     there for three hours, five hours.  I haven't got a clue.

Page 540

 1        Q.   Okay.  Tell us what happened in the L-shaped room and -- where

 2     you were taken.

 3        A.   Well, they took two prisoners there and blindfolded them.  There

 4     was a woman standing there and two uniformed men.  The woman also wore

 5     uniform.  She gave a cup of water to every person after they had been

 6     blindfolded.  Why she did that, I don't know.  They made a kind of swing

 7     barrier there and there was a TAM truck there.  When I boarded the truck

 8     there were two benches but they were not full.  I sat on the right-hand

 9     side.  When the truck became full and all the places on the benches were

10     occupied, people were sitting down between the benches.

11             I forgot to say that once they started taking people out, a

12     soldier appeared with a red beret.  He went with every batch of people.

13     I don't know whether there were two or three trucks, because once you

14     have a blindfold you can't see anything.

15        Q.   Can you just tell us briefly what a TAM truck is so we can get

16     that picture of a TAM truck in our mind.

17        A.   The TAM truck was used by farmers to transport produce and

18     cattle.  It is good for small cattle.  It could perhaps accommodate two

19     cows but not more, so mostly people from Bijeljina and Janja used these

20     kind of trucks for the transportation of agriculture produce.

21        Q.   So did the military use TAM trucks as well with benches on the

22     side?

23        A.   No, no.  The army never had this kind of trucks.  They had bigger

24     TAM trucks, but they confiscated these smaller ones from the farmers

25     because they commandeered all kind of machinery from farmers.

Page 541

 1        Q.   Now, this door that you went out and were -- from a ramp into the

 2     truck, was this the same door you came in to the building or a different

 3     one?

 4        A.   No, no, we entered through a different door and we went out

 5     through this door.  In 1999 I went to visit the scene, and that is when

 6     this door was -- was built and closed with concrete blocks because

 7     terrible genocide was carried out in the territory of Zvornik

 8     municipality.

 9        Q.   Who did you go there with in 1999?

10        A.   I went with this investigator named Ruez.

11        Q.   And that was an investigator from the ICTY, to your knowledge?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And when he took you to this school, were you able to recognise

14     it?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Okay.  Now, once you were put in the back of this truck with your

17     blindfold, what happened?

18        A.   The truck rode down an asphalt road for a short period of time.

19     I felt that it went to the left.  After this short ride it stopped.  We

20     were told to climb down, and that's what we did.  I looked in front of

21     myself and I saw a dead man.  I have three children and immediately I

22     thought about them, and I thought that I would have the same destiny like

23     this man, that I'm not going to see my children ever again.  And I was --

24     I started praying to God and I started thinking in what way they are

25     going to kill me.

Page 542

 1             A burst of fire was heard coming from the left.  I fell down and

 2     my right arm was across the chest of another man.  When this burst of

 3     fire stopped, a man came, started walking among the people lying on the

 4     ground and shooting them in the head.  I have a little bruise here

 5     probably from the ground and the gravel that was on the road --

 6        Q.   Okay.  Let me just interrupt you for the record.  I see you're

 7     pointing to some fingers on your right hand.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And you've told us you had a blindfold on.  How can you see

10     anything with this blindfold, was it still on?

11        A.   No.  I didn't see this on my hand.  I only felt it.  But at that

12     very moment, because I was looking down in front of myself, I saw this

13     dead man.

14        Q.   So did you have the blindfold on when you looked down to see the

15     dead man?

16        A.   Yes, yes.  I was just looking directly in front of me, because

17     you couldn't see anything ahead.  That was a very sick -- thick cloth and

18     it wasn't see-through.

19        Q.   And after the firing and you fell down, what happened?

20        A.   When everything stopped, when the shooting stopped, they started

21     shouting, "Let's go and take their watches off."  I didn't have a watch

22     and my left arm was beneath me, but then one of them said, "We're not

23     going to do that," and they didn't.  In the meantime, as soon as a truck

24     would arrive the same would be repeated.  You would hear a burst of fire

25     and all this was going on until darkness fell.

Page 543

 1        Q.   Can you give us -- and -- just your rough estimate of how long

 2     this -- these executions were going on from the time you first got to

 3     this site?

 4        A.   Well, it -- they definitely lasted until 11.00 in the evening

 5     because it lasted for quite some time after darkness fell.  Overall I

 6     don't know how long it started from the very -- how long it took from the

 7     very beginning.

 8        Q.   Were there any lights around?

 9        A.   There was an excavator there, and it was digging.  When I slowly

10     removed my blindfold I saw this excavator opposite us.  When this was

11     finished, they didn't have any more place and they all gathered around

12     this machine, and this man who was in charge told them, "Let's go to this

13     field where grass had been cut to kill all those people."  The man

14     stopped the excavator and said, "If you leave, I'd like to go with you."

15        Q.   Did you ever hear any names mentioned by any of these men that

16     were doing the shooting or were at the site?

17        A.   They mentioned the names Gojko, Vojo, that's how they were

18     addressing one another, Risto.  This Gojko was my fellow worker from the

19     company and we had known each other for 15 years.  Gojko thought that all

20     the men were dead, and he said that he would like to be kissed by some of

21     the men who were killed.  I recognised his voice when he said that.

22        Q.   Did you ever see his face while you were there?

23        A.   No, no.  It was dark.  It was night-time.  I couldn't see his

24     face.

25        Q.   And how can you be sure it was this voice of this Gojko?

Page 544

 1        A.   Well, he had a very specific voice.  If you know someone for a

 2     long time you can recognise their voice everywhere, and as I said, we

 3     knew each other for 15 years.  And they also were addressing one another

 4     by name.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I think it's a good time to take a

 6     break, and I can also tell you we're getting close to being finished with

 7     direct examination.  Maybe another 15 minutes.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before we break, my fellow Judge has a question.

 9             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Just one follow-up question.

10     Witness PW-007, I would like to know exactly what happened on July 12th.

11     In the transcript, page 15, line 8, 9, and 10, it says the following, and

12     I'll read in English:

13             [In English] "No, no.  Those who had some weapons, they had left

14     with the first group and they had moved through, and they were lucky

15     because they had their weapons, whereas we didn't have anything and we

16     could be killed by anyone."

17             [Interpretation] This is on page 15.  But on page 14, line 12,

18     this is what I read:

19             [In English] "We went through a wood and when we came to a field,

20     we saw a lot of dead bodies.  That was probably where an ambush had been

21     set for this first group, and we didn't know anything about this because

22     we were at the rear end of the column."

23             [Interpretation] So this is my question, Witness.  If I

24     understand things correctly, the first group had weapons, so these dead

25     bodies were probably people who had been killed during a battle.  I don't

Page 545

 1     know.  It's just a question.  I don't know what happened.  So why are you

 2     saying later on that the first group was lucky because they had weapons,

 3     if they were killed at the end?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, not all of them were killed.

 5     Probably 50 people were killed, but these people were killed on their way

 6     from Srebrenica.

 7             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] We are talking about this first

 8     group where there were people with weapons; is that correct?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  Not all of them were

10     armed.  Those who had weapons advanced and went ahead.  Among them were,

11     for example, the president of the municipality, the people who had to be

12     provided with some security, and nobody knew what was going to happen.

13             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

14             THE WITNESS:  [No interpretation]

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There was no interpretation.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because this kind of genocide never

17     happened anywhere after the Second World War.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I could have one follow-up question that may help

20     clarify that.

21        Q.   Sir, were you aware of how many -- roughly how many men from the

22     beginning of the Muslim column actually made it through at Baljkovica and

23     made it through to Muslim lines?

24        A.   I don't know how many of them.  Maybe you should ask someone

25     else.  I never asked about this and I don't know.

Page 546

 1        Q.   Are those the lucky ones that you're referring to?

 2        A.   Well, yes, yes.  Anyone who managed to cross over could be

 3     considered lucky.  Those who were unlucky are now being exhumed from

 4     various graves, one arm in one grave, one leg in another grave.  So only

 5     those who survived were lucky.

 6             [No interpretation].

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There was again no translation of the last part.

 8     There might be a problem with the system in the moment, but I think you

 9     could deal with this problem after the break, again to clarify the

10     situation.

11             We must have our first break now and we will resume 20 minutes

12     past 4.00.

13             And I think to enable the witness to leave the courtroom we

14     should go into private -- it's not necessary.  You will deal with that.

15     Thank you very much.

16             The Court Officer will assist you during the break.  We will

17     resume 20 minutes past 4.00.

18                           --- Recess taken at 3.52 p.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 4.25 p.m.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, please continue.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I don't know if the booth caught that last

22     sentence and they can tell us or not.  I can try to see if the witness

23     remembers what he said.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Unfortunately, the interpreters didn't get this

25     last sentence.

Page 547

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  Thank you.  We'll try to slow it down a

 2     bit.

 3        Q.   Witness, you had -- in answering my last question had said that

 4     the lucky ones were the ones that made it through and that the unlucky

 5     ones were the ones that were in mass graves.  And then you said something

 6     else which the interpreters -- we weren't able to get.  Do you remember

 7     what you said?

 8        A.   Well, I said only those who were in mass graves had their limbs

 9     in different graves and maybe of -- it was necessary to dig in to three

10     or four graves in order to put together one person and his body parts.

11        Q.   So have you been following the exhumations of these mass graves

12     by the international community?

13        A.   No.  I only heard that the majority of these graves were dug out.

14     They did find my brother, but not his complete body.

15        Q.   Okay.  I understand.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we go into private session briefly.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 548

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14                           [Open session]

15             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honour.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:

17        Q.   What else, if anything, did you hear Gojko say?

18        A.   Yes, he said, "Collect all your ammunition, let's go to this

19     mowed field and let's shoot the people."  He seemed, he appeared, to be

20     the person in charge.

21        Q.   And where were you when you heard him say this?

22        A.   Well, some 10 to 20 metres from him.

23        Q.   And you mentioned an excavator.  Can you describe to the Court

24     what you mean by excavator, what kind of excavator -- or not the brand

25     name, but there's lots of big digging equipment.  Can you tell us what it

Page 549

 1     is you saw?

 2        A.   Well, that is a construction machine used for digging trenches

 3     and canals.  It can also load cargo on but it has a small bucket, so it's

 4     different.  It's really a digger.

 5        Q.   All right.  And did you see another kind of a machine there

 6     besides this excavator?

 7        A.   Well, after this I saw a loader.  This loader came with the

 8     lights on because the excavator was turned in the opposite direction so

 9     the lights were only used -- the excavator lights were only used to

10     actually throw some light on the area that is being excavated or dug up.

11        Q.   Now, what happened after this, after you saw this digging

12     equipment?

13        A.   Well, when the digger, or rather, the loader arrived, it had the

14     lights on and we were all lit up.  One of us was alive and he was on the

15     other side, on the opposite side from where we were.  So he sort of stood

16     up and ran into the woods.  They fired after him, and the driver of this

17     digger turned the digger so that he could actually light up the area

18     where the man fled into the woods.  And at that moment I moved and then

19     he said, "Well, there's another man moving here."  Fortunately, they

20     didn't hear him, and then I just lay -- I just took two long strides and

21     I could feel some stones there.  And then I looked around.  When I saw

22     that no one was going in my direction, I stood up.  And as I ran up this

23     embankment, a stone-built embankment, I realised that it was really rail

24     tracks there.  I ran up and I could hear a burst of fire being fired

25     behind me.  I didn't see or hear the bullets actually hit the stones

Page 550

 1     around me and I didn't feel being hit.

 2             I flew over the railway tracks, and then I just threw myself over

 3     the other side of the embankment.  I jumped up again on to my feet, and

 4     then I realised that there was a maise field not far off.  They were

 5     already very tall, the corn stalks.  I ran halfway, and then I thought

 6     they will start shooting because they will see the corn rustling.  And

 7     then I just threw myself on the ground, and then as I slithered through

 8     it, I realised that there was some stream or water somewhere, but I

 9     didn't see it.  The Serb soldiers went searching through the cornfield.

10     They shot just randomly, I don't think -- and I didn't feel that anything

11     hit me.  And then they turned back and went away.

12             I could hear the shooting for a long time after that, and when

13     everything was over, I got myself up from the cornfield.  There was a

14     copse of trees not far from there, but I was very afraid as I left the

15     cornfield into the open field, but there was no one there, fortunately,

16     because had there been someone they would have caught me and killed me, I

17     am sure.  And then I started moving but I didn't really know where I was

18     going because I knew when they had brought us to the school, but from

19     there onwards, I didn't know where I was.

20             And then as I was walking along the paved road there was -- there

21     were bodies there, but there were signs of life from one of these

22     persons.  He was -- the sound that he was producing was inhuman.  It was

23     almost like an animal squealing, but I couldn't really help him.  So I

24     moved along and then I came across the railway tracks again, and then as

25     I crossed them I realised that I was at the railway station in Orahovac.

Page 551

 1     So I concluded that I was again heading in the direction of Zvornik.  So

 2     I re-traced my steps.  I went back and got on to the road again.  I

 3     didn't know where I was going.  I decided to go into the wood because I

 4     was afraid it would get light, because it was a summer night and they're

 5     not very long.

 6             I headed from there towards a home.  There was a light coming

 7     from there.  I didn't hear any sound, not even a dog barking, and then as

 8     I passed by a hut, I saw a person sleeping there with a rifle against the

 9     wall.  And then I went around that house, and again I had no idea where I

10     was.  Soon after that it grew light.  I went through some villages that

11     had been burnt down.  I know they were Bosniak villages because they had

12     been burnt down.  I had no idea where I was going.  The sun was high up

13     and I still had no idea where I was going.  But as I walked on,

14     fortunately I was walking in the right direction, not in the opposite

15     direction, and once I reached Krizevici where a store used to be, I

16     knew -- I found my bearings, I knew where I was.

17             So then I retraced my steps a bit.  I went backwards.  And then

18     as I went up a slope, I saw that a mosque which used to be there had been

19     destroyed.  And then I arrived in Seferovici.  I knew that because I had

20     some relatives nearby, in a village nearby, and as I was there, there was

21     a patrol that was walking there and they started shooting, but I managed

22     to get through Seferovici, this village.  I walked across some grass.

23     The houses were all burnt down.  And then as I crossed over that field, I

24     realised that there was this village that I knew, that I was familiar

25     with, because I had some relatives there.

Page 552

 1             The grass was so high that I was wet almost up to my waist.  So

 2     then I decided to take a nap.  I lay down and slept for maybe an hour or

 3     two, I have no idea how long, but when I woke up I realised I hadn't

 4     eaten anything for a very long time because we were only given water,

 5     nothing else, since we had been detained.  Maybe I had a fruit or

 6     something but -- so then I went down to the village and I found a pear

 7     which was ripe.  There were some green buds or fruits on fruit trees, but

 8     I couldn't eat that.  There was only this one pear.

 9             So then I tried to find some clothes in the village -there was no

10     one there because it had been burnt down - because I wanted a change of

11     clothes because the shirt that I had on had a blood-stain because of the

12     man who had leaned against me who had been shot.  So I wanted to make

13     sure that I had clean clothes because had they found me like that, they

14     would have known that I had escaped.

15             So I returned -- I started going back.  I headed back toward

16     Baljkovica when it got dark and I found a house that remained almost

17     intact.  It hadn't been completely burnt down.  The roof was -- had

18     fallen in, but -- but the walls were still up.  And then when I arrived

19     there there were three buses, Drinatrans buses that were going -- local

20     buses that were transporting people back from -- towards Baljkovici.  The

21     direction the buses were going was a Serb village --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the name of the

23     village.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and then I decided to spend the

25     night in that house.  And in the morning, when it got light, somebody

Page 553

 1     threw something, flung a stone against the wall and said, "Get up."  So I

 2     got up and I just was expecting someone to barge the door --

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 4        Q.   Let me interrupt you for one second.  I'm sorry, you had

 5     mentioned a village just now but they weren't able to hear it.  Can you

 6     tell us what village you had just passed through?

 7        A.   Well, I think it was Delici, that was the name of the village.  I

 8     know -- I was not from that village, but I know -- I have a general idea,

 9     and I think it's Delici.

10        Q.   Delici or Dulici?

11        A.   Delici.

12        Q.   Okay.  And now from this morning that someone threw a rock at

13     you, how many more days did it take you to reach the Muslim territory?

14        A.   Well, had the road been clear it would have taken 15 to

15     20 minutes because I was already nearby, but the roads weren't clear.

16        Q.   So how long did it take you to manage to get away?

17        A.   Well, I actually took advantage of the situation then because the

18     people who were going from Srebrenica had arrived at Baljkovica at that

19     time, and had there not been a breakthrough at that time of the front

20     line, those people would have ended the same way we had.  And then when

21     they arrived there, the Serbs had withdrawn all their artillery from

22     Baljkovica.  So I took advantage of that situation and sort of flew over

23     to the other side.  I was so close.  There were some hundred metres or so

24     where I could see the houses on the other side, but it was all a clearing

25     and I was afraid that someone might notice me.

Page 554

 1        Q.   Okay.  So when you say the people from Srebrenica made a

 2     breakthrough through Baljkovica, are those people from Srebrenica, is

 3     that part of the column that you were speaking of earlier, the front of

 4     the column?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And were there -- was that where the weapons were?

 7        A.   Well, most probably.  I don't know.  I wasn't with them.

 8        Q.   All right.  And -- okay.  Now let me take you back briefly to

 9     something you mentioned.  You said you didn't get any food during this

10     time, but let me ask you when you were at Sandici, the area next to this

11     asphalt road where you surrendered, did you see the Serb forces providing

12     anyone with any food?

13        A.   No.  There were people there, wounded people.  They were crying

14     out, asking for them to be -- for their wounds to be dressed, but then

15     they moved and went on to another house and they never returned.

16        Q.   Who were moved on to another house?

17        A.   Well, the wounded people were taken to a house there.  There were

18     some houses there some 200 metres away from us.

19        Q.   And did you see any of the Muslims that were in that field with

20     you near Sandici get treated with any kind of first aid or medical or

21     receive any help of any kind?

22        A.   No, no.  They just offered a bottle of liquor and they offered a

23     few people to have a swig and maybe a cigarette or two, but there was no

24     food or any medical assistance provided.

25        Q.   Was there some water provided at Sandici?

Page 555

 1        A.   Yes, they did bring water for us.

 2        Q.   Now, in that truck that you were in from the time you left

 3     Sandici, you spent the night in that truck in Bratunac, and you were

 4     taken to that truck the next morning to Orahovac, did anyone bring you

 5     any food or anybody else in that truck bring you any food?

 6        A.   No.  For the entire period since we had been captured, no one had

 7     seen a crumb of food.  They did give us water, not that evening but on

 8     the next day, both in Bratunac and in Orahovac.

 9        Q.   Okay.  So just to be clear, once you got to the school in

10     Orahovac, before you were put in an execution line, did anyone give

11     anybody any food in that gym or any medical attention of any sort that

12     you saw?

13        A.   No, nobody.  They just put a bucket for people to relieve

14     themselves and there was nothing else.  They did bring water, but there

15     wasn't enough for everybody to fill themselves up.

16        Q.   Okay.  Now, going back briefly again to Sandici, did you see any

17     of the soldiers or police taking down names and making lists of the

18     Muslim men or prisoners?

19        A.   No.  They did not write down any of the prisoners.  I don't know

20     about what happened in other locations.  This is why the Serbs are

21     claiming that it wasn't that number of people who got killed.  They don't

22     know exactly whom they killed and how many.  They could have killed

23     people of any ethnicity.  They asked whether there were any Serbs among

24     us, but there were none.

25        Q.   All right.  I'm just going to show you some photos that I know

Page 556

 1     you've seen many times before in your previous testimonies, but let's put

 2     them on your screen, so you should, I think, get your glasses out.  The

 3     first one is number 1129, 65 ter 1129.  It should appear on your screen

 4     and we're going to try to use that writing pencil that you used before,

 5     but I want you to just take a look at this photograph to see if it means

 6     anything to you.

 7             And while we're waiting, do you remember how many times you've

 8     come to The Hague to testify in the Srebrenica case?

 9        A.   This is my fifth time.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I wonder if this can be blown up a bit.  Thank

11     you.

12        Q.   Now, just take a look at that.  It's obviously winter.

13        A.   We went out through this area here.  This is where the ramp was

14     where we got on to the TAM truck.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please wait a moment.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:

17        Q.   Hold on, it disappeared.  This is our first photo of the trial,

18     so bear with us for a second.  Could you just, to make it simple put a --

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Court Officer will help you.  Just a moment.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  He's an expert.

21        Q.   Could you take that pen and just draw a big 1 where you entered

22     the school building, if you know, if you remember.

23        A.   Well, here I don't see the area where we entered.  I just know

24     that through this auxiliary building we were taken out.  This is where

25     the truck was and this is where the wall was broken --

Page 557

 1        Q.   Hold on --

 2        A.   -- this is the gym.  This is the fence of the yard.

 3        Q.   Could you put a 1 next to the place where you were taken out

 4     where the wall was broken, where you've marked that red mark.  Just put a

 5     1 next to that so we know what you're talking about.

 6        A.   I made a big mess, but this -- here where the mark is.

 7        Q.   Let's erase this one and try again.  It's all right.  We'll get

 8     it right.  If you can, just put a 1 where you came out of the gym.

 9        A.   There.

10        Q.   Okay.  And -- that's good.  And now let's save that, but can you

11     just put the number 007 on this thing.  Just put 007, that will indicate

12     it's you, and just in the bottom right-hand corner, in the snow, put just

13     11/3/10, the date.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   Well, that's not quite the snow, but that will do.

16             All right.  Let's go to the next one and that is number 1128.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you asking -- are you tendering this exhibit?

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I was going to -- I have three of them.  I was

19     going to do it at the end if that would be more convenient.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You should do that immediately.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Otherwise it's a danger to lose these markings.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  I would offer this into evidence then

24     and the -- and 1129 which -- it was the ...

25                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

Page 558

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  I hear no objection.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This will be received.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And I think we had a discussion about the

 5     information sheet, the hard copy, that should be uploaded and we would

 6     receive that as well as an exhibit under seal.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  That's -- yes, that's uploaded and we

 8     should offer that as well, 6188.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received under seal.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  The pseudonym sheet will be P42, under seal.  And

12     the photograph marked by the witness will be P43.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please carry on.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  If we could go now to 65 ter 1128.

16        Q.   Okay.  Can you mark with a 2 if you recognise anything on this

17     photograph -- do you -- first of all, do you recognise this building?

18        A.   Can you make it brighter?

19        Q.   I'm afraid that's about as good as we get.  And if you can't

20     recognise it, don't worry about it; if you can, let us know.

21        A.   This is the entrance, and from here one went straight and then to

22     the left and then there was a door leading straight into the gym.

23        Q.   Hold on.  We've got another glitch.  But just to try to make it

24     as simple as you can, can you put a 2 where you came out of the gym, if

25     you can see.  Just put a 2 -- if you can see where you came out, just put

Page 559

 1     a 2.

 2        A.   I did put a 2 but it's not showing.

 3        Q.   Well, we can see it, so it -- and that's just right.  Can you

 4     tell on this photograph the area where you went into the school?  If not,

 5     don't worry about it; if you can, put a 3.

 6        A.   I see.  It's actually quite dark.  I can't tell whether there's a

 7     door there or not.  It's really dark.

 8        Q.   Okay.

 9        A.   I have hard time seeing without my glasses and my glasses are

10     really not the right prescription.

11        Q.   Okay.  Then we're fine.  If you can just in the right-hand corner

12     put 007 again.

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   That will work.  And it's the same date, the 11 -- 11 March 2010.

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   Okay.  That's fine.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer that into evidence.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received, but let me ask, is it really

19     necessary to have the date and the pseudonym on the photo?  I don't think

20     that this is really necessary?

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Ms. Stewart always has told me to do that,

22     Your Honour, but if -- that's just our practice and it's whatever you

23     wish, of course.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Not to do that could simplify the procedure.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay, I'll try to see if I can remember why we do

Page 560

 1     that.  I'm sure there's a reason for it, but we'll sort it out.  I've got

 2     only two more, so we're almost finished.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just a moment.  We wait for the number.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be P44.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.

 7             And if we could go to 65 ter 1134.

 8        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Microphone, please.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Excuse me.

12        Q.   I don't need you to mark anything on this right away, but do you

13     recognise this picture?

14        A.   Yes.  These are the doors through which we came in.  This

15     basketball hoop that's there now, I didn't see it back then; but

16     otherwise it's the gym as it was.  These are the windows and then the

17     entire wall.

18        Q.   And were you able to point anything out to Mr. Ruez when you were

19     there, do you remember?

20        A.   Yes, yes.

21        Q.   What did you point out to him, if you recall?  You don't need to

22     mark the photo.

23        A.   I showed everything to him as it was.  I came there and nothing

24     had been done to the gym.  There was some cupboards there that didn't

25     used to be when we were kept there.  So everything was -- looked normal.

Page 561

 1     There was something that was built up, but yes, everything was normal as

 2     it used to be.

 3        Q.   All right.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I would offer that, 1134, into evidence.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As P45, Your Honours.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And now I'd like to go to one last exhibit, it is

 8     number 5755, page 125.

 9        Q.   And, Witness, for your purposes, as you'll see, this is a list of

10     names, and I will ask you if you recognise any of the names on this.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We don't have it on the screen yet.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  There it is.

13        Q.   I don't know if you can read that.  If we can blow it up a bit --

14     read it.

15        A.   This here is my brother.  This is my brother.

16        Q.   Okay --

17        A.   Well, it's gone.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  This should not be broadcast, by the way.  I

19     apologise.  And if we could go into private session.

20        Q.   One second, Witness.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 562











11 Pages 562-566 redacted. Private session.















Page 567

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

19             Sir, this is the end of the examination-in-chief by the

20     Prosecution.  Now the accused has the chance in cross-examination to put

21     questions to you.

22             Mr. Tolimir, do you have cross-examination?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I am

24     ready to start my cross-examination based on the statement provided by

25     this witness.  I would like to greet the witness, and this is how I am

Page 568

 1     going to address him, and I would like to say that with all due respect

 2     for everything that he had gone through we nevertheless have to ask

 3     certain questions in order to clarify the situation that he has been

 4     describing because this situation and certain aspects can be perceived in

 5     a variety of different ways.  On my behalf, I would like to express my

 6     condolences for all those who went through this ordeal.

 7             If I may begin with my questions.

 8                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Witness told us here that later, after he had

10     reached the free territory, he learned from his brother that his brother

11     passed him by in the bus column that was moving from Sandici to Potocari.

12     I would like to ask him just to tell us a little bit more about this.

13     How is what was possible for his brother to see him?

14        A.   Mr. Tolimir, my brother didn't see me.  We were not moving from

15     Sandici to Potocari, but rather to Bratunac.  He only saw people who were

16     captured, but he didn't see them.

17        Q.   Where was he?

18        A.   He was in a bus.  My brother who managed to cross over, he was a

19     disabled person.  He had -- he has sciatica and he was a disabled person.

20     He was not a military disabled person.

21        Q.   Thank you.  So he is talking about his brother who left --

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I have to stop you here.  You are

23     both speaking the same language.  You should avoid overlapping in asking

24     and answering and -- for the sake of the interpretation.  Just wait for

25     the moment the transcript stops.

Page 569

 1             Now put your question.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 3             What I would like to know was whether his brother at the time was

 4     in the bus along with those who were crossing from the Serbian territory

 5     to the Muslim territory or was he in some other means of transportation.

 6     That was not clear to me.

 7        A.   My brother was in Potocari.  He had two crutches.  That's how he

 8     walked.  While he was in Potocari a Serbian soldier told him, "Get on the

 9     truck."  And he said, "I can't do that."  And then another one told him,

10     "Well, then, go and board a bus," and that's what he did.  Luckily, he

11     managed to pass through.

12        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please switch on your microphone.  Mr. Tolimir,

15     you need your microphone.  Your microphone, you should switch on your

16     microphone.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Witness, do you know anything about the agreement that was

20     reached at Fontana between representatives of Srebrenica and

21     representatives of the Serbian army?

22        A.   No.  They did not negotiate while we were in Srebrenica.  If they

23     did negotiate, that took place only after the people had left Srebrenica.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Maybe you didn't understand me properly.  We are

25     talking here about the fact that people were not allowed to leave

Page 570

 1     Srebrenica before this agreement was informed.

 2        A.   Mr. Tolimir, you know that Mladic was negotiating at Fontana, in

 3     Bratunac, with someone called Mandzic, I don't know.  But we all had

 4     already left except women and children.  You held them as hostages

 5     because if anything happened on the road you threatened to strangle all

 6     the women and the children.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, I have to ask you as well to stop and to

 8     wait between -- not to answer immediately but to wait a little moment so

 9     that the transcript and the interpreters can follow what you are

10     answering.

11             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I wanted to add, it's not because

12     I'm listening to the French, but I have the feeling that the witness is

13     talking to the accused and the witness should actually be talking and

14     looking at the Trial Chamber and not at the accused.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please carry on, Mr. Tolimir.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   I would really like to clarify this situation which will enable

19     me to ask the following question.  So can the answer -- can the witness

20     answer me whether in this column that was headed towards Tuzla knew that

21     there had been an agreement according to which those fit for military

22     services were supposed to surrender themselves as prisoners of war,

23     whereas the civilian population was to be -- was to be transferred to

24     Srebrenica?

25        A.   [No interpretation]

Page 571

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the answer

 2     because there were overlapping speakers.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The witness didn't start with his answer.

 4             Please answer the question.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Maybe it will help, but the last part would have

 6     been not that the population was to be transferred to Srebrenica, but

 7     that the population was to be transferred out of Srebrenica.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Then you should please repeat your answer to the

 9     last question, especially related to Srebrenica.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The people had left Srebrenica on

11     the 11th of July.  They went to Potocari, which is 4 kilometres from

12     Srebrenica.  So they were moving out of Srebrenica and heading towards

13     the liberated territory or the free territory.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

15             Carry on, Mr. Tolimir.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

17     Obviously I cannot elicit an answer from the witness whether the Muslim

18     people and the army knew that an agreement had been reached at Fontana.

19     This is all I'm interested in because this is very important for my next

20     questions.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no, nobody told us anything

22     about this.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Thank you.  Since nobody told you anything about this agreement,

25     then you didn't know that you were in violation of this agreement because

Page 572

 1     you didn't surrender and you embarked on a breakthrough.

 2        A.   Mr. Tolimir, we did surrender.  Didn't you see us?  Didn't you

 3     see how we surrendered.  Of the 1.000, only five or ten people managed to

 4     survive.  That was a divine intervention that these people were saved.

 5     What are you trying to persuade us?  We did surrender.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, just -- you should put questions to

 7     the witness and not make statements, and the last question was not a

 8     question, in fact.  Keep that in mind, please.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I asked

10     him whether the soldiers and the population of Srebrenica were aware

11     about the Fontana agreement.  I'm not trying to make any assessments and

12     judgements about documents.  I'm just asking --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you must not explain anything.  Just

14     ask questions.  You must not explain why you are asking a question.  Just

15     put questions to the witness.  Please carry on.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I would like to ask

17     you, Mr. President, what you told me just now, to say the same thing to

18     the witness.  He is giving his own assessments, such as genocide and

19     things.  It's not up to him to use this kind of terminology.  It is up to

20     you to decide what terms are going to be used.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, this is a question the Chamber has

22     to deal with.  In this respect we don't need your guidance.  Please carry

23     on asking questions.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 573

 1        Q.   My next question is:  Did you personally know, as well as those

 2     who were with you in the column, that an agreement had been reached at

 3     Fontana between representatives of the Serbian army?

 4        A.   Please, don't ask me that.  You ask someone else about this.  If

 5     I had known about this, I -- why should I have been such a foolish person

 6     and risk losing my life?  Don't say things that are inappropriate to say.

 7     What are you talking about?  What are you talking about Fontana for?

 8     That was already a time when people were dead, while Mladic and the rest

 9     of them were drinking whiskey at Fontana.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Witness, you should just answer the question.  We

11     don't want to have debates on different positions.  If the accused puts

12     questions to you, just answer; if you don't know that, then say "I don't

13     know."  If you know, then tell the Chamber what you are -- what is your

14     knowledge.

15             I'm very sorry.  Mr. Tolimir may ask the next question.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Witness, in your written statement and here in this courtroom

19     today, you said that in the evening a certain man came to see us and

20     somebody told you that that was Mladic.

21        A.   100 per cent.

22        Q.   Did you know that man?

23        A.   I didn't know him before that, but when I reached the free

24     territory and when I saw him on TV that was 100 per cent Mladic.  And he

25     addressed us by saying, "Good evening, neighbours."  Nobody else called

Page 574

 1     us neighbours except him.

 2        Q.   Mr. Witness, can you recall anything else that Mladic told you,

 3     apart from this word "neighbours"?

 4        A.   When he came he said, "Good evening, neighbours," and then he

 5     said, "The governments are in negotiations and there will be an exchange

 6     tomorrow, all for all."  He also said, "You will get some water but no

 7     supper."  In my view, what he meant was that there will be blood.  He

 8     never mentioned food.  Others mentioned food, but he thought that we

 9     would have blood; but bread, definitely not.

10        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  You have answered my question, but I would

11     like to ask you to give me a yes or no answer and let us give a chance to

12     the Trial Chamber to make their own conclusions.

13             My next question is -- today you said that this young man decided

14     who to shoot and who -- whom he should not shoot.  When this man said,

15     "You mustn't kill all these people," my question is:  Do you believe that

16     this was also done according to his personal wish or according to

17     someone's orders?

18        A.   I don't know whether he was ordered to do that or whether he

19     himself wanted to do that.  I don't know.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Next question.  You also said that a young man with a

21     black scarf let some children under the age of 15 and some women from the

22     column of the prisoners.  Was that his own decision?  Did he do that on

23     his own initiative or did he follow orders?

24        A.   Probably at his own initiative.  I don't think there was any of

25     his superiors present there.

Page 575

 1        Q.   Thank you.  My next question is:  Did you have the impression

 2     that many of those individuals who imprisoned you, treated you and

 3     decided on your life on their own initiative?

 4        A.   No.  While we were in the school building they never physically

 5     abused us.  When other people came, probably officers dressed in

 6     camouflage uniforms, that's when orders were issued to take people out to

 7     be shot.  So this was not done on their own initiative.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  So you said from the moment when the people in

 9     camouflage uniforms came and those who asked you, "Is there anyone here

10     from Zvornik," are you referring to those people?

11        A.   Yes, I am.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I think we need the second technical

13     break now.  Is that a convenient time?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I have

15     no objection to that.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Then we adjourn and resume at 6.00.

17                           --- Recess taken at 5.32 p.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 6.03 p.m.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Chamber wants to come back to the last

20     document, the list of names we saw on the screen.  Perhaps it was not

21     very clear the position the Chamber took, and especially after having

22     heard the objection of Mr. Tolimir.  The Chamber will receive this one

23     page with the markings of this witness as an exhibit in evidence.  And

24     the Prosecution should come back to the other part of this whole

25     document, this book, at a later stage when it seems to be appropriate.

Page 576

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 3             And, Mr. Tolimir, once again, please pause between the answer and

 4     your next question and just recall that you should put questions to the

 5     witness.

 6             But I would like to say a word to the witness as well.  The

 7     accused, Mr. Tolimir, has the right to put questions to you and you

 8     should -- and it is a very strange situation for you, I can imagine, but

 9     you should just listen to the question and answer this question.  That

10     would help the Chamber to find out the truth.  Thank you very much.

11             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on with your cross-examination.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Could you

13     please just advise me how much time I have at my disposal.  Can I use the

14     remainder of the day today for my question?  Thank you.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, of course it's up to you how many questions

16     do you have and we have time until 7.00.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

18             MR. TOLIMIR:

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, when you said here during your

20     testimony that on the sixth day you arrived in Baljkovica village, that

21     was on page 43, lines 44 -- 24 and 25 in the transcript, to the place

22     where the breakthrough occurred.  However, you failed to mention on what

23     day it was that you were re-captured after Baljkovica.  Thank you.

24        A.   Well, I wasn't captured after Baljkovica.  I was not taken

25     prisoner.  I was taken prisoner at Sandici.

Page 577

 1        Q.   Thank you.  I believe that you may provide a more precise answer.

 2     Before you were taken to Batkovici, were you captured?  Thank you.

 3        A.   Well, I never was in Batkovici.  Where did you get that

 4     information?

 5                           [Defence counsel confer]

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me then about the breakthrough.  You came to

 8     Baljkovica.  Where did you go next?

 9        A.   After the breakthrough was carried out, I went towards a village.

10     I can't recall the name.  I went in the direction of Nezuk village.

11        Q.   Tell me, please, were you in the part of the column, the front

12     part of the column that had broken through the line held by the Serb

13     forces in the direction of Tuzla or --

14        A.   No, I wasn't with that column.  I arrived after the column had

15     already gone by.  The column probably broke through around 2.00 or 3.00

16     in the afternoon, and I arrived there in the evening.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before you answer the next question, please

18     pause.  It is necessary for the sake of the interpretation, otherwise

19     your answer will not be heard.

20             Mr. Tolimir.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Witness, at the end of your evidence here today you said that the

23     president of the municipality was at the head of the column that was

24     advancing.

25        A.   Well, no.  I said that the leadership of the municipality was

Page 578

 1     there, but I didn't say anything about him being either at the beginning

 2     or middle of the column.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Can you then answer this:  This leadership, municipal

 4     leadership that was at the head of the column together with the armed

 5     group that advanced before a part of the column actually hit an ambush

 6     where 50 people were killed, was that column moving from Srebrenica?

 7        A.   I don't know about that.  They headed from Susnjari, and I don't

 8     know when exactly it was when they set off, whether it was at midnight or

 9     before midnight.  All I know is that I set off on the next day, on the

10     12th, with the last group.  So we set off from Susnjari, the last group.

11        Q.   Witness, you said that the room where you were held, where you

12     first had to leave your equipment, and when you were asked by my learned

13     colleague how many people were outside the school you said about 150 to

14     200.  And then you said that once you entered the hall, you sat with your

15     backs to one another.

16        A.   No.  I said that there were lockers for about 200 people.  I

17     don't know how many.  Because they only took off their coats and jackets.

18     A person did not take all their clothes off.  And as for those who

19     arrived, when it was ordered that they should be blindfolded, they

20     commanded that people who were up -- halfway in the hall, they should

21     turn one way and the people on the other half of the hall should turn

22     their -- towards the other wall in the opposite direction.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Now, tell me please whether -- I just want to check

24     if I understood you correctly.  You said that the hall was 15 by

25     20 metres long.  Thank you.

Page 579

 1        A.   Well, I didn't say how large it was.  It was a gym and it was

 2     measured at that point, but I don't know how -- what the measurements

 3     were.  It was probably 12 metres wide to 15 -- by 15 to 16 metres long,

 4     but I don't recall it ever being actually written down how large it was.

 5        Q.   Very well.  So you say that it was 12 to 15 metres long.  You're

 6     not sure.  But can you tell me now, is it possible to fit 1.000 people in

 7     that space?

 8        A.   Well, you know, the way we were crammed in, I think it is

 9     possible.  Because, you see, my -- as I was sitting, my knees were

10     actually up to my chin.  They were against my breast, and I could -- if I

11     was able to count, I could count up to ten men, you know, along one row

12     and -- the length of the row and then also the width of the column.  But

13     there were a lot of vehicles, and if each vehicle had 50 people at least

14     on it, and there were probably also people who were standing in the

15     vehicles, then you can see how many there were.

16        Q.   Thank you.  A few moments ago during your evidence you said that

17     there were about 500 to 1.000 people there.  Could you please tell us

18     more specifically which of the two it is.  I accept that you say -- if

19     you say 1 to 2, that's okay; but if you say 500 to 1.000, that's quite a

20     big difference.  Now, could you tell us again, was it 500 people or

21     1.000?

22        A.   Well, I don't really know.  That was my estimate.  But judging by

23     how long it took for those people to be killed, it took some seven to

24     eight hours, now you can take -- you can make the calculation yourself.

25     If there was at least 30 people on a truck at least -- per truck because

Page 580

 1     there could be ten people per bench, so judging by the vehicles and the

 2     number of people that got on them -- and then also there were people who

 3     were there from before, this is my rough estimate.  Now, whether it was

 4     700 or 800 people, I can't really say with precision.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  In your statement to the Prosecution on the 13th and

 6     14th of August, 1995, under number 0079-8668, on page 2 you say:

 7             "No one organised the evacuation of able-bodied men.  According

 8     to our then estimates there were around 15.000 men who were going through

 9     the woods."

10             My question is this:  Is it possible that no one organised the

11     evacuation of a column numbering 15.000 people?

12        A.   Of course not.  These people started -- they set off on their own

13     will, and even when it was -- when we heard that Srebrenica had fallen we

14     were going towards Susnjari and women and children were going towards

15     Potocari.  How many people came from Suceska, I don't know.  But if you

16     weren't there to see the huge number of people who were gathered there, I

17     don't really know.  Maybe there were over 15.000 people or maybe not, but

18     this is a very rough estimate.  Because, you see, when we showed up

19     there, we would fill two or three fields right away.  And then when they

20     started putting these people in files and columns, then it was very

21     difficult to judge --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the last portion

23     of the witness's answer.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The interpreters didn't catch the last portion of

25     your answer.  Could you perhaps repeat the last two sentences.

Page 581

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, as I said, there were some

 2     15.000 people there because if you consider how many people there were

 3     there and that we couldn't set off right away, we only left at around

 4     1.00, it was still day-time, and it is even possible that there were more

 5     people than that.  But most probably there were around 15.000 people

 6     there.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Thank you.  In your statement of July 1995, a few moments ago I

 9     mentioned your August 1995 statement, but in your July witness -- in your

10     July statement, number 008483, you said the following:

11             "Able-bodied men were organised in order -- organised themselves

12     in order to leave Srebrenica" -- just a moment, please.  Just wait for me

13     to finish my question.

14             Can you tell me, please, are these -- do these statements differ

15     because one was given in July and one in August, or is it about something

16     else?  Where is this discrepancy arising from?

17        A.   No, no --

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please pause.  Please pause.  We are still

19     waiting for interpretation.  And now please start with your answer.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never said that able-bodied men

21     fit for military service organised themselves, because people had

22     problems.  They had families, and as for me, I was over 40 even then, I

23     wasn't young.  And as I said, I wasn't even capable.  After being in

24     Srebrenica, I was so exhausted and I wondered whether I would be able to

25     reach Tuzla at all.  Because if I were to show you a document which

Page 582

 1     showed -- with a picture after I arrived from Srebrenica, you couldn't

 2     believe what I looked like.  I looked like a skeleton with just skin over

 3     it.

 4                           [Defence counsel confer]

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours.  My

 6     assistant suggested that I repeat the ERN number of the July statement.

 7     The ERN number that I asked to be posted, because it has not been

 8     recorded in the transcript, that's number 0033-8483.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  Could we ask -- I

10     think it should be known that if there's going to be repeated references

11     to previous statements, we will need to know the page and line in the

12     English as well as the Serbian so that we can make reference to it.  I

13     haven't said anything at -- to this point, but if that could be borne in

14     mind in the future.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

16             I think you made a point.  Even the Chamber has no possibility to

17     follow that way because we don't have these statements.  Perhaps it is

18     possible to make a clear reference to the page numbers in both languages,

19     then we could perhaps, if you want to do that, call them up on the

20     screen.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I thank Mr. McCloskey.  Could he

22     please take a look at 1D002, it's on the screen now.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, I think we have a problem.  We have to go to

24     private session if that is displayed on the screen.

25                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 583

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We will manage not to broadcast it to the public,

 2     only to have it on the screen in the courtroom, then this is possible.

 3     We must not go into private session.

 4             Please continue.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  This is

 6     English version page 2, line 3.  However, if this requires us to go into

 7     private session, I will not put any questions concerning this.  I will

 8     skip over all of these questions.  All I want is to ask this witness

 9     about how these statements were written up.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Witness, who wrote the statement that you gave to the Prosecutor?

12        A.   I did.

13        Q.   Did you type it?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Did you sign the version in the language that you understand or

16     did you sign the English version?

17        A.   I think that I signed the English version, but it was interpreted

18     to me into my language.  But perhaps what you're referring to is my

19     statement from Tuzla.  But I don't remember whether I signed it in Tuzla

20     or not.  I know that I signed the one that was in English.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey --

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   I'm now referring to the document 00 --

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just a moment.

25             Mr. McCloskey.

Page 584

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yeah, the document on the screen was a statement

 2     to the high court judge of Tuzla.  He was speaking about the document to

 3     the Prosecutor.  The witness clarified it is why I sat down, but -- so

 4     hopefully we can stay clear on which -- there's many, many statements

 5     over 15 years and we need to be very clear which statement we're talking

 6     about.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 8             Carry on, Mr. Tolimir.

 9                           [Defence counsel confer]

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I was referring to

11     1D001, but if it's a problem I will not insist on it any longer.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, if I signed it, it is my

13     statement.  I'm not going to disown it.  It's just that it's been

14     15 years and I simply don't remember.  I remember that it was in English

15     and they interpreted it for me, and maybe there was a problem with

16     interpretation.  That's the only problem that could have been because I

17     would never say anything against somebody.  I try very, very hard not to

18     do that.  I read the solemn declaration that I would speak the truth, and

19     I tried to do that as a witness.  And I try not to raise my voice.

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Thank you.  I also want to ask you about your statement 0798668

22     [as interpreted], page 2, paragraph 6.  Could we have it on the screen,

23     please.

24             You say there:

25             "I was in a group where there were 100 men.  Most of them were

Page 585

 1     civilians.  There were a couple of soldiers and several wounded men."

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I have to stop you here.  We don't

 3     have it on the screen.  Just wait a moment.

 4                           [Defence counsel confer]

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Do we have the 65 ter number of the document so

 6     that it can be found?

 7             THE ACCUSED:  [Microphone not activated]

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Microphone.

10             THE ACCUSED:  Thank you.  [Interpretation] Please look at 1D001,

11     page 2.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now it appears on the screen.  Please continue.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   So my question is:  Does it stem from your statements that the

15     column was established by civilians who were able-bodied and that there

16     were some soldiers in there?  You said that there were about 500 rifles

17     there.

18        A.   I said about 500 rifles, but perhaps some of those people

19     remained in the last column.  However, they left the column immediately

20     and went on.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell me, did the mayor that you mentioned a

22     bit earlier have any role in the column?  You said that he was at the

23     head of the column.

24        A.   No, I didn't see him in the column at all, but I suppose that the

25     leadership left within the first groups.

Page 586

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Witness, did you serve in the army?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   If it's not a problem to say that in public session, did you have

 4     less than 50 years when you set out from Srebrenica?

 5        A.   Yes, I was younger than 50.

 6        Q.   Did you fall in the category of able-bodied men, fit for military

 7     service?

 8        A.   Yes, based on my age, yes, but I was not a soldier.

 9        Q.   And you know that there is a category of those who are

10     able-bodied, fit for military service and for work, you know what age

11     that is?

12        A.   Yes, from 18 until 60.

13        Q.   Isn't it that 15-year-old children are already considered fit for

14     work?

15        A.   No.  Tell me which law specifies that, that the age limit for

16     that is 15.

17        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   It's not necessary for us to debate on this.  I just said that

21     15-year-olds are considered fit for work and people of age are

22     18-year-olds, but we don't need to discuss this.  It's not necessary.

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

Page 587

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Witness, since you went out in the field with Jean-Rene Ruez, did

 3     he give you any suggestions when the statement was taken and drafted, the

 4     statement that he co-signed?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Can you answer this, please:  Were your families together with

 7     you and your brothers in Srebrenica?

 8        A.   No.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I have

10     no further questions for this witness.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Thank you, Witness, for your proper attitude.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir.

14             Mr. McCloskey, do you have re-examination?

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  No, Mr. President.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Chamber would like to thank you that you

18     again were in the position to come to The Hague to testify here and to

19     help the Chamber find out the truth.  Thank you very much again, and you

20     are now free to return to your home.  Thank you very much and the

21     Court Officer will assist you.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We need to go into private session.  I think so.

24             Now everything is prepared.  Thank you very much.

25                           [The witness withdrew]

Page 588

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, is the next witness ready?

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, I have been told he has been sent

 3     back to his hotel.  He's a rather elderly man and he is not here, but

 4     he'll of course be ready to go tomorrow.  He, as you may recall, is a

 5     92 ter witness so he will be very short for the Prosecution.  And I

 6     wanted to mention to you, should he finish early, we have not brought any

 7     more witnesses in because of the long week it would have taken.  But we

 8     do have an exhibit that we call the trial video, which the Defence has --

 9     is fully aware of.  And it's basically the videos that have been put

10     together from films shot by combat cameras and journalists, beginning

11     with 10 July in -- and the military movement towards Srebrenica, through

12     Srebrenica, into Potocari, the Hotel Fontana meetings you heard briefly

13     about.  And we had normally played that with Mr. Ruez so that if

14     questions pop up he could answer them, though he -- in the past there

15     haven't been too many questions.  I was thinking we might be able to save

16     some time, if we have at least an hour or so extra, we could play

17     portions of that video for you to -- and that way we would have less time

18     to take up with Mr. Ruez, who should be here in a couple of weeks.  And

19     hopefully we'll be able to get Mr. Ruez done in the three days that we

20     have allotted for him.

21             And so I've mentioned that to the Defence.  Of course I offer

22     that to you as well.  This is a rather important video to see.  We

23     usually play it all in one chunk, but it's in day-oriented chapters, and

24     it's something that I think we can -- it would be helpful for the Chamber

25     to see if we can see it for an hour or so at a time.

Page 589

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think it's in the moment, your decision what

 2     you want to present.  We will, of course, consider that, but just a

 3     moment.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, do you want to make a comment to

 6     this request of the Prosecution?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not familiar with this video

 8     footage.  I don't know who shot that video footage and I don't know

 9     whether it can affect the opinion of the Trial Chamber or whether it has

10     some other purpose as a document.  That's all I can say right now.

11     Perhaps later on I could be more specific later on, and if this document

12     is so important for Mr. Ruez, then perhaps it needs to be shown when

13     Mr. Ruez is here rather than tomorrow.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We have a bit of a problem.  I have informed

16     Mr. Gajic of this video - I'm sure he's very familiar with it - to get

17     the word to the General.  And if that communication is not going to work,

18     I'm going to need to be able to try to communicate directly with the

19     General and have some form to do that because this is going to be a long

20     trial.  It's going to be even longer if this basic daily communication to

21     help alleviate the court schedule is not done.

22             Perhaps they'd just forgotten or hadn't had a chance to talk, but

23     I sincerely hope that this is not the way we have to communicate with the

24     General in open court because we'll end up spending a lot of time talking

25     between lawyers.

Page 590

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Do you want to say something, Mr. Tolimir?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Certainly.  Mr. Gajic told me that

 3     Mr. McCloskey wanted to show a video footage from the Popovic et al.

 4     case.  However, he had indicated that he was going to change something in

 5     this video footage, therefore that's why I said that I'm not familiar

 6     with the contents.  My legal advisor just told me that Mr. McCloskey had

 7     advised him that he was going to make some changes in the video.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  This is video that the Defence has had for months

10     and months, and the -- there are -- there are no -- there's nothing new

11     about any of this video.  The actual piece that was played in Popovic

12     will have a couple of additional pieces added to it later on down the

13     road, but the first hour and -- roughly hour, hour and a half is

14     identical to what was played in the Popovic.  And then there will be

15     little additions of video that they've had for months, like I say.  So

16     there's no real -- there's no changes, so to speak, and there's certainly

17     nothing new in the first hour and a half.

18             This is the famous footage that's been on television all over the

19     world for years and years.  There's no mystery to this.  It's

20     General Mladic, his troops, Potocari.  They know what this is.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think it's not necessary to continue this

22     debate today.  We will see what will happen tomorrow in the courtroom

23     when this witness arrives, and we will deal with that later.

24             I would like to raise the problem of protective measures for the

25     next witness.  The Prosecution moved to give this -- these protective

Page 591

 1     measures as in the last trial.  The Defence objected.  The position of

 2     the Chamber is the same as with the last witness.  I think it is not

 3     necessary repeat all arguments.  Pursuant to our Rules, Rule 75 of our

 4     Rules of Procedure and Evidence, we are bound by the decision of the

 5     last -- the previous Chamber and there is no argument put to the Chamber

 6     to vary or to rescind anything of these protective measures.  And in that

 7     way, like with the last witness, the application of the Prosecution is

 8     granted.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  We have actually

10     filed, as you see, official motion notifications requests on these two

11     witnesses, but as we agree with the Trial Chamber, this is a matter of

12     law already decided.  Would you prefer us to continue to file formal

13     motions with the Registry in these situations where things are identical

14     to what they were before, or we can also just merely inform the parties

15     that we are standing by on the protective measures that were there before

16     and only file if there's a change.  But we can do it either way.  It's

17     just whatever you prefer.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Chamber is always in favour of the most -- of

19     the way to deal with these problems in the most simple way, and therefore

20     if there is no objection by the Defence, it should be just a notification

21     that everybody is aware of the protective measures granted by previous

22     Chambers.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.  That would be the simplest way, yes.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think at this stage we adjourn for the day and

25     resume tomorrow, quarter past 2.00, in this courtroom.  Thank you.

Page 592

 1                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.44 p.m.,

 2                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 12th day of

 3                           March, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.