1 Tuesday, 30 March 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom.
6 The witness should be brought in.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon. Please sit down. May I remind
9 you the affirmation, the solemn declaration, you made yesterday still
11 THE WITNESS: Absolutely, sir.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey has some more questions for you.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon
15 WITNESS: JEAN-RENE RUEZ [Resumed]
16 Examination by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued]
17 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Ruez. We should have 178 up on the screen.
18 I don't know if it's on your screen yet. It's -- and you had just
19 described this orange water as the normal colour of this dam but you
20 hadn't gotten, I don't believe, any further. You've got some blue arrows
21 on this. What do those depict?
22 A. These arrows depict the way the two survivors of the execution
23 that occurred on the dam -- depict the escape routes that UN later can
24 match with their testimony, so first crawling into this ditch, then
25 hitting the little wood which is on top of an elevation just in front,
1 and then during the day of the 15th, they were crawling in order to hit a
2 hill which is at the east of the dam. East on this picture, being at the
4 Q. Let's go to the next -- your next photograph, 181. Excuse me.
5 A. Yes, that's it.
6 Q. Yeah, 179.
7 A. So that's the same indication, but one cannot see any longer the
8 little wood, but the blue line going to the left represents roughly the
9 way they took, and then they continued on the line on top of this hill
10 until they could find their way, orienting themselves from the direction
11 of Zvornik, and then trying to go across the confrontation line.
12 Q. Okay. Let's go to 180. We are now back to the water area.
13 What -- why have you put this photograph in?
14 A. In fact, this one could have been erased from this presentation.
15 This one was used at a time of another trial in order to explain the
16 reason why some searchs, forensic searches that were done on this
17 peninsula were unsuccessful, because it was a dump of chemicals and the
18 forensic team had no means to continue to dig in such a chemical
19 environment. But we will never know what is there or not.
20 Q. Did you have some reason or any information from the
21 investigation that there may be bodies or evidence in that area?
22 A. Yes, it could be, because during the day of the 15, the two
23 survivors could see that the loading of bodies that were scattering the
24 ground on the plateau of the dam were taken by a little wheeled platform
25 tracked by a tractor that could -- that took the direction that goes, in
1 fact, up to the little dirt road that hits the peninsula. They couldn't
2 see where this little tractor was going, but the assumption therefore was
3 that the initial burial place that had been selected was not on the dam,
4 but elsewhere.
5 So whatever the amount of bodies we would have found in a grave
6 on that location would not account for the total of number killed.
7 Therefore, we were looking for the very first burial spot used by the
8 Bosnian Serb army in this location. But again, because of this
9 circumstances, this very first burial place was not found, but what we
10 know anyhow is that on the 15 and excavator came and opened a hole on the
11 plateau of this dam and buried the people who were still on the plateau.
12 Q. All right. Let's go to 181. And do you remember who this is?
13 A. Yes, for sure. That was the first time we arrived on this dam.
14 So we did a very short collection on the surface, and among the items
15 which we could gather were all these bones. And the person photographing
16 the bones is Professor Bill Haglund, Richard Haglund -- William Haglund,
17 sorry. And he is the anthropologist who assessed what these bones were,
18 so human bones.
19 Q. Now, you say your first short visit, can you explain very briefly
20 why you didn't stay longer? Why it was a short visit?
21 A. All the missions during 1996 were very short because the goal was
22 to go as soon as possible to locations that were already identified
23 between August 1995 and March 1996, and the goal was to hit as many of
24 them in a short period of time in order to have a first assessment of
25 these places without necessarily conducting a thorough search on all of
2 As everyone knows, time runs against evidence. And already a
3 winter had passed. We already had the, in bracket, "luck" to assess
4 these crime scenes in such a time-frame, because the war was over. And
5 the goal was just to make sure that we were on the right place and then
6 decide if we had to spark additional forensics and additional
7 examinations on these sites. It happened to be the case for all of them.
8 Q. All right. Let's go to 182. What is this?
9 A. So this is another short mission conducted in 1997, during summer
10 1997, or maybe April because we always started when -- as soon as April.
11 And this -- the goal of this mission was to check if there were some
12 human remains in the -- on this plateau of the dam, because technical
13 means, aerial means, did not implement the theory that there was a grave
14 there. But on the surface, for example, this is a piece of a cloth
15 knotted looking like a ligature.
16 Q. Let's go to 183.
17 A. This is the same piece of cloth washed and put on concrete to
18 take a better picture of it.
19 Q. Okay. Let's go to 184.
20 A. So during that mission that I said, the goal was to check if on
21 the area that where we believed could be a grave was to dig. The dig was
22 specifically difficult because it's very rocky terrain, but having dug a
23 hole approximately 1 metre of depth, we hit the first piece of evidence
24 which is marked by the yellow arrow. It looks like a piece of a stone or
25 mud, but on the next picture it will be seen that it is, in fact, the top
1 of a skull, a human skull.
2 Q. Okay. 185.
3 A. This is the same piece of evidence but washed at a water-pipe
4 nearby. And later on this photograph was shown to our anthropologist who
5 asserts this is a human skull.
6 Q. Okay. 186.
7 A. This was also during the 1997 mission, another collection of
8 pieces of bones on the surface of the dam where the anthropologist sorts
9 out these bits and pieces into more anthropological data pieces coming
10 from various parts of human skulls.
11 Q. Okay. 187.
12 A. This is also part of a process we conducted on the plateau. It
13 was to collect shell casings. And this is the result of our three hour,
14 let's say, collection of shell casings on the plateau. There are more
15 than 1.000 shell casings in these bags. They are all in evidence.
16 Q. Do you remember the calibre or calibres of the shell casings?
17 A. Yes, 7.62 for, I think, more or less -- more or less all of them.
18 Q. All right. And 188.
19 A. So this is a marking that I did on the plateau that indicates the
20 location where we found the shell casings. And, I mean, the skull
21 fragments were in a more -- more restricted area -- the skull fragments
22 were in a more restricted area. This is -- these are the limits where
23 most of the shell casings were found, and this is an indication of what
24 was the size of the terrain occupied by the dead bodies, the victims we
25 are talking about.
1 The aspect of the skull fragments is of relevance because there
2 is a statement saying that at one point soldiers complained against one
3 of the shooters that he was aiming the victims at the head, and after a
4 while, since it was spilling their brain, they were claiming that it was
5 stinking, so they requested him to stop this. So this is why the search
6 for all these skull fragments was of interest also. It was an
7 implementation of what one of the survivors overheard.
8 Q. Okay. Now, I want to go back to your video collection, take
9 us -- we'll go back to the school, the Grbavci school. And the number
10 for that is 1138. And, again, if need be, could you offer us any new
11 information or narrative.
12 [Video-clip played]
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can you turn off the sound. I would just as soon
14 have Mr. Ruez be the narrator. This sound is not relevant.
15 THE WITNESS: It's what I tried to explain using pictures, but
16 now it's on videos. So this is the entrance of the school that to the
17 right hand leads to the school building and to the left to the gym where
18 the prisoners, as far as we know about, were kept inside. We don't know
19 if others were kept in the classrooms. The survivors were all from the
21 So the right is the entrance towards the school building; the
22 left towards the gym.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY:
24 Q. Do you recall when this video was shot?
25 A. We did several in this location, so here I can recognise a
1 colleague who was not with the first one, or maybe it was -- I don't
2 remember, no.
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. I think it was 1996. I think it was the one of February 1996.
5 But without the sound, I cannot say because the first one I remember
6 because I was requesting my colleague to check if I was not hitting
7 something dangerous, I mean, while I was filming. And this one he is
8 filming. So this is either 1997 or 1998, I don't know.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. So that's -- at the left it's the entrance and here is the exit.
11 This is where the people were taken out after having been blindfolded and
12 had a sip of water. And inside you can still find these pieces of cloth
13 that were not there the first -- the very first time, so I believe that
14 some children were playing with abandoned material around, like, also
15 there were a lot of shell casings and even live ammunition that I handed
16 over to the police at the time so that the children don't play with it
18 So that's summer 1996.
19 Q. Is there something that makes you now recollect that it's summer?
20 A. Yes, because it's the day we went through this pile of rubbish.
21 Here we are starting to line up the material collected in this
22 little dump site, so shell casings. But mainly the interesting material
23 in there is the blindfold, knowing that this school was used on a quite
24 regular basis by the army, so the shell casings are not necessarily
25 relevant to the events of that day, but the blindfolds, for sure they
2 Q. All right. Now we have one other short. We go out -- and that
3 is number 1155. And could you tell us, once you see this, where this is
4 once we get going.
5 A. Grbavci school again. So Orahovac area. At the top of the
6 picture, the direction to the execution site, one can clearly see the
7 road line on it's elevation. This is designed to show the distance
8 between the sites, knowing that the prisoners inside the gym did not hear
9 the shooting take place. It's partially due to the distance, but mainly
10 because the elevation of the railroad makes a natural sound barrier. So
11 that house did not exist at the -- in 1995. It was starting to be built
12 in 1996. So it's behind the road line. And, again, we approach the
13 first execution site.
14 That's the terrain in the shape we found it when we arrived.
15 Very muddy.
16 Q. So none of those ruts were done by any ICTY equipment?
17 A. No, no. These are the traces of the initial heavy equipment used
18 to create this site. So the man with the yellow equipment is
19 Professor Bill Haglund, our anthropologist. And this greenish mud is due
20 to the mixture of soil and human bodies that decomposed that created this
21 greenish mud.
22 Q. What is this that they are digging around, if you recall or know?
23 A. Probably a piece of a bone, the top of a bone that
24 Professor Haglund recognises as being a human bone. The sound would tell
25 it because he probably explains. That's a piece of cloth. I don't know.
1 That's the garbage dump site 200 metres away from the execution
2 and burial site. That's the asphalt road that can be seen behind the
3 bushes. The sound would be of interest because the person who is taking
4 the video is counting the items and describing them. Socks.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can you tell us why there is no sound?
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: I just thought it would be easier because it's in
7 English and it -- if the translators can translate it, sometimes they
8 can, then it would be okay for the General, otherwise, it's -- there is,
9 I believe, there's a transcript of this, but I'm not sure. So let's --
10 why don't we try it with the sound, and if they can translate it, fine;
11 if they can't, we can either go with the sound or without the sound.
12 THE WITNESS: It's a description of items and numbers. So at
13 least for the blindfolds, it's of interest.
14 [Video-clip played]
15 THE WITNESS: Now I am the one who is making the description. I
16 recognise my accent.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY:
18 Q. You haven't changed to a British accent now, have you?
19 A. This is Peter Nicholson speaking.
20 Q. All right. Let's continue on in the presentation with page 189.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just to make the situation clear. I think,
22 Mr. Tolimir, you received B/C/S translation of the sound, the words
23 spoken? I could hear them in B/C/S, and it was translated also in
24 French, what we heard on the video.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Presiding Judge.
1 I was able to hear the witness.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. Please carry on, Mr. McCloskey.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I perhaps should offer that video into
4 evidence. The two; one was 1138 and 1155 by our numbers.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Both will be received.
6 THE REGISTRAR: 1138 will be Exhibit P86, and the next one will
7 be Exhibit P87, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY:
10 Q. So now we are at page 189, and you've got a yellow marking up by
11 the village of Rocevic
12 A. So that's the third identified detention centre used in the
13 so-called area north, a place called Rocevic. It is again a school that
14 was used on 15 July and filled with another load of prisoners coming from
15 Bratunac that was still in the process of being emptied of all the
16 prisoners during the day of the 15.
17 Q. All right. Let's go to 190.
18 A. That's a view of the school as it can be seen by zooming from the
19 asphalt road that leads from Zvornik towards, in fact, Banja Luka, I
20 mean, alongside of the Drina
21 Q. And 191.
22 A. That's the same school, seen from the back. So one can see that
23 it's a larger structure with classrooms and also a gym attending [sic] to
24 it. We do not know what part of this building has been used to store the
1 Q. And let's -- Mr. Ruez, you are not familiar with all the various
2 investigations that have occurred since 2001, are you?
3 A. No, I'm not, that's why I was cautious about my talking about
4 only about my personal knowledge.
5 Q. All right. Okay. So let's go to 192 now. And we have your map
6 again, same yellow circle with Rocevic, and now a star near the
7 Drina River
8 A. So the star marks the approximate placement of the execution site
9 where these prisoners were taken to. They had to be taken towards first
10 Kozluk and at Kozluk make a kind of U-turn in order to hit a little road
11 going alongside the Drina
12 the execution site was located.
13 Q. So you've talked about information received from a survivor of
14 the Luke school, the Kravica warehouse, the Orahovac and
15 Petkovci schools, and their associated execution sites. Did you have a
16 survivor for this site that you are talking about near Kozluk?
17 A. There is no survivor from this execution. The information
18 related to this site, in fact, came from an information from a person who
19 was in a refugee centre in Germany
20 relatives living in the area and who were able to provide enough
21 information in order for us to narrow down the place and finally find it.
22 Q. Okay. And let's go to 193 where you can explain what this is and
23 how you found it. Just briefly. Again, I don't want to put you through
24 the entire investigation.
25 A. The main thing that enabled us, the final stage, to find it was
1 to be able to narrow it down on a map and then to request through
2 US State Department a survey of aerial imagery in order to even more
3 narrow down the possibilities, and that's what led us to the site.
4 This is seen from north to south; at the left is the
6 at a distance. And Kozluk town is just in front. So, in fact, one would
7 first take the asphalt road, drive towards Kozluk, and then drive along a
8 dirt road alongside of Drina River
10 Q. When you were following up on this information you talked about
11 and you first arrived at this scene that you've marked execution site,
12 what did you find to indicate that it may have been an execution site?
13 A. The following pictures should show what we found when we arrived
14 the first time.
15 Q. Okay. Well there is one; 194 is the next picture.
16 A. Yeah. So once in Kozluk and taking this little sharp turn in
17 order to hit the gravel road that leads towards the execution site, there
18 are two interesting structures. The first one is a factory that
19 embottles bottles; it's the Vitinka factory. This will be of interest
20 because as you will see on the site there are items that connect to this
21 factory. And later on in secondary burial sites the same items will be
22 found and make the connection between the entire situation. So that's
23 the first building one can hit is this Vitinka factory.
24 Q. Okay. Let's go to 195.
25 A. The second structure is a military compound. It's the compound
1 of the Drina
2 Q. All right. Let's go to 196.
3 A. So that's the imagery obtained by the US, from the US. So at the
4 left you can see the Drina River
5 compared with the one 17 July, it is obvious that on the 17 July there
6 has been quite a dramatic change in the terrain in this area, with a lot
7 of disturbed soil.
8 Q. Okay. Let's go to 197.
9 A. So seen from the ground on the area of the disturbance, one can
10 notice that there is quite a lot of amount of broken glass, bits and
11 pieces of broken glass, and also this part is a part of -- it's a shoe,
12 in fact, with a bone in it - another picture will show it
13 better - popping out of the ground.
14 Q. Let's go to 198.
15 A. So again, the shoe with a stocking and a bone inside. And inside
16 the shovel is a shell casing and a sample of this broken glass that can
17 be found in many places in this area.
18 Q. So was this what you found when you first arrived at the scene?
19 A. Yes. So the broken glass is in fact because these gravel pits
20 were also used as depots for broken bottles from the Vitinka factory, and
21 the same glass but also labels of bottles, labelled Vitinka, were later
22 on found in secondary mass graves.
23 In fact, the day before we went to this place, we were at a
24 secondary site where these labels were coming out, and this is what
25 sparked the decision to go as soon as possible to this last execution
1 site that we had not processed yet, but it was at that point a certainty
2 that this would be the spot. And, indeed, all the forensics done after
3 that confirmed the fact that the two sites were linked.
4 Q. Okay. Let's go to 199.
5 A. So here one can see a shell casing and broken glass. The little
6 yellow sticker is just there to mark the presence of the shell casing.
7 Q. And 200.
8 A. So, again, the green broken glass and also a piece of limb
9 that -- one piece was sticking out of the ground so we just pulled a bit
10 on it and it appears to be human remains. So we didn't continue further
11 excavation of this area.
12 Q. Was this site later fully exhumed by the OTP?
13 A. Yes, it was.
14 Q. And was it found to be a disturbed or undisturbed site?
15 A. It was an execution site on which many details are indeed
16 provided by the reports, and this site was then disturbed and more than
17 two-thirds of the bodies were removed from it and put in a place that we
18 named the Cancari valley.
19 Q. All right. And there will be others and more detailed evidence
20 on those matters.
21 So let's go to your next topic; it's at page 201. And we see the
22 yellow mark over the village of -- well I can make out Branjevo.
23 A. Pilica, Luke. Luke school.
24 Q. All right. Then let's go to 202. And where does this fit into
25 the story?
1 A. So, again, 15 July the evacuation of Bratunac was still not fully
2 completed. In fact, it completed that day. Among the last ones to be
3 shipped north was a large group of prisoners who were taken to this
4 school, the school of a location named Kula close to Pilica and close to
5 Branjevo. So it's a quite large structure, two-storage [sic] building,
6 and a big gym.
7 Q. Let's go to 203.
8 A. That's the view of -- one can see when he arrives at the school
9 on the right side.
10 Q. Do you recall any particular significance to that right side of
11 the school?
12 A. Yes. One prisoner who was inside and who the next day survived
13 the execution at the Branjevo farm was tasked to go and fetch some water
14 at the water-pipe, and it was night. When he was on his way back, he saw
15 that one bus full of prisoners arrived at this location. The people were
16 unloaded and shot on the spot at the -- just in front of this facade. So
17 we, indeed, made also a few checks about this assertion.
18 Q. Okay. Let's go to 204.
19 A. That's the path that the prisoners took in order to then turn
20 right and enter the school and the gym. The gym entrance.
21 Q. And 205.
22 A. So this is the entrance; it is also the exit of the school. At
23 the exit, this is where the people were lined and for some of them
24 blindfolded before being taken on board of buses for alleged exchange of
25 prisoners and, in fact, brought to the Branjevo farm for execution.
1 Q. 206.
2 A. So this overview shows the location of the water source where the
3 survivor went in order to pick up water and bring back to the gym.
4 Q. 207.
5 A. That's the water source.
6 Q. So did you yourself find these places after this person told you
7 this story?
8 A. In fact, I used the indication of the testimony that we had of
9 him in order to find the places and match them with the description we
10 had of it, and that's how we could find these locations --
11 Q. Okay, 2 --
12 A. -- following the path he had described when he gave his
14 Q. 208.
15 A. That's the angle of sight; the little arrow shows the angle of
16 sight from the exit point of, way back, of the water source and the
17 location he claimed having seen the people getting out of a bus and being
18 shot. So, indeed, he had the possibility to have this angle of vision.
19 Q. So we see the arrow-head on this arrow. Is that where he is or
20 where the bus is or what?
21 A. No, this is where -- the point of the arrow is on the gravel
22 road, and the rest of the arrow is his line of sight of people he said
23 had been shot were at the left of the trees, not the gravel road but at
24 the left of the trees on the grass, having the building at their back.
25 Q. 209.
1 A. And these are some traces that could still be seen on the facade
2 and that could be connected with his testimony.
3 Q. 210.
4 A. Holes on the facade of the school wall.
5 Q. 211.
6 A. Holes that had been filled with concrete on the side of the wall.
7 Q. 212.
8 A. Areas marked in red both on top of the picture and the picture at
9 the bottom are the areas where we collected shell casings embedded in the
10 ground. Which would match, indeed, the position of people who would
11 shoot on a group close to the facade; one on the front, one on the side.
12 Q. All right. Now, let's go to 213.
13 A. Now, the red star is the approximate spot of the execution site
14 of the Branjevo farm which is the location from where the -- on 16 in the
15 morning before 10.00 the people who were inside the school of Luke
16 taken on board of buses and taken to the Branjevo farm, which is a
17 military farm.
18 Q. 214.
19 A. That's the aerial imagery of this farm, and it is dated
20 5th of July, so before the events. At the top of the picture, the buses
21 were coming from the left and then entering the real estate of this farm.
22 I will be able to give more details. It's a pigsty. So the building top
23 right is a pigsty. The long building just in front of the top right is
24 also a pigsty. At the bottom left is the administration building. And
25 completely at the left is a garage. The garage was the site where the
1 execution squad was waiting for the prisoners.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Why don't we, if we could, put this on e-court so
3 that Mr. Ruez can mark this.
4 THE WITNESS: I think we have an aerial marked in yellow --
5 Q. Actually, the --
6 A. -- with all of it on it.
7 Q. That's absolutely correct. So let's -- we'll just take advantage
8 of that. Let's go to the next one, 215.
9 A. That's a picture taken from the ground, which gives the angle of
10 site of someone arriving at the farm. So that's the access path we saw
11 on the previous picture. Now the pigsty is on the left; the admin
12 building is the one on the middle; the garage, a bit on the right; and a
13 very large field to the right, which is the execution field. This is
14 where the Black Hawk helicopter has landed. It's behind the helicopter.
15 Q. And did you come in that Black Hawk?
16 A. I went in by car, by helicopter; I went several times there to
17 the Branjevo farm.
18 Q. All right. Let's go to 216.
19 A. That's a helicopter view of the farm. That is a perfect
20 indication of the size of the terrain at the right. One can perfectly
21 see the gravel road that, from the right, is coming, in fact, from the
22 direction of the school, then turning right towards the Branjevo farm was
23 the area where the bus were stopped, as witnesses will say, from the
24 windows they could see what was happening because it was not happening at
25 a very long distance since the people had to walk towards the garage,
1 which is the little structure to the right, extreme right of the picture,
2 right of the farm. And then they started to shoot them from there. And
3 then the people had to continue to walk over the bodies until they could
4 find the tree line. And this was continuing like this towards the right
5 side of the picture.
6 Q. Okay. I think it would be helpful if we could put this one on
7 e-court. And if you could just mark this area where the survivors told
8 you the executions were going on.
9 A. So the buses were coming like this. Then they were parking here.
10 Sometimes there were several. People then had to walk like this. Here
11 was the location where the execution squad was having his, in brackets,
12 "rest place." And then the people had to line up in rows. It was -- the
13 process was continuing like this.
14 Q. All right.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I would offer this into evidence.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, that will be received.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P88, Your Honour.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY:
19 Q. And if we can go to 217 now.
20 A. So this is the view one has when arriving at the garage I was
21 just describing. And so that's the starting point of the execution site.
22 Q. Okay. Let's go to 218.
23 A. That's the -- that's the execution field as it was the first time
24 we approached it. And we did a quick check on the site. It was the
25 first approach; I think it was in March 1996. And it was two hours on
1 the spot and only with a drawing of an aerial imagery that was of
2 assistance to find the place, so it took a little while.
3 Q. Now, can you tell from being there, was this churned up soil, did
4 this appear to be from agricultural or from the kind of churned up soil
5 you had seen at Orahovac?
6 A. It's hard to say because it's agricultural ground. It had been
7 moved upside-down when we really came to process the area. But, indeed,
8 yes, we know that the place had been also turned upside-down at the time
9 on 17 July where the bodies were cleaned off the ground to be buried in a
10 mass grave just very close by of this picture.
11 Q. So -- but was there a cornfield planted there at around the times
12 that you visited after, you know, after this incident, at various times?
13 A. No, it stayed more or less after that abandoned terrain. And now
14 it's a settlement of housing. This place does not exist any longer.
15 Q. All right. Let's go to 26.
16 A. So among the items we could see the first time we arrived was,
17 for example, a -- one shoe in the bushes.
18 Q. 220.
19 A. Human bones, a piece of hip and a rib and another bone.
20 Q. 221.
21 A. That was a human skull.
22 Q. 222.
23 A. So this picture dated 17 July, the interest of it -- well, there
24 are two interests. One is that we don't show it, maybe you will have to,
25 is the US
1 indicates that many of the dots seen on the picture are labelled by the
2 US as being bodies.
3 Q. When you say dots, where are the dots that you are talking about?
4 A. That's not the same one that I saw on the right screen. Yeah,
5 now it's this one. In between the two lines, the two yellow lines on the
6 right. But the two yellow lines are there to show that when we came
7 there in order to do a shell casing collection on the surface, that might
8 have been in 1997, indeed the field had already been plundered. So the
9 number of shell casings on the surface we found was relatively limited.
10 I cannot remember exactly how many. But what was interesting was the
11 repartition of them on the ground since, in fact, we started to find them
12 very shortly after the garage, so matching the beginning of the execution
13 field and all along -- all along this field on quite a long distance
14 close to 200 metres long.
15 Q. I think when you said the field when you got there had already
16 been plundered, you may have meant ploughed?
17 A. Ploughed, sorry, yeah, yeah, yeah.
18 Q. Okay. And this area where we see some sorts of dots or something
19 between the yellow lines, is this anywhere near the area that you just
20 marked on the map where the people told you the executions happened?
21 A. It's both the location where the people said the execution
22 happened, but also it's the location where we found the items seen on the
23 previous pictures; the shoes, the skull, the bones.
24 Q. And aside from the survivor evidence that you are talking about,
25 did you have any shooter evidence; anybody that took part in the shooting
1 that corroborated that same information?
2 A. Sure. All this is also part of the testimony of
3 Drazden Erdemovic. Most of it is part of the testimony of Erdemovic.
4 The fact that the garage was the rest place for the execution squad of a
5 10 Sabotage Detachment and their colleagues from the Bratunac Brigade is
6 coming from Drazden Erdemovic.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. And that will be a witness you will hear
8 from, Your Honours.
9 Q. And if we could go to 223. I think this is what you referred --
10 reminded me of.
11 A. Yes and no, because in yellow are my markings, but the fact is
12 that my markings on this one reproduce the US markings. So maybe taking
13 the original US into evidence would be something to be done later. But
14 when I write on the yellow -- orange line "bodies," the line with the
15 "bodies," this is what was written on the US imagery. Also, the label
16 "piles of earth" is on the original US imagery. The label "probable
17 bodies" put in a pile close to the location where an excavator is digging
18 and where we found the location of the primary mass grave, all this were
19 markings on the initial US
20 Q. But just to reiterate, you are not certainly relying totally on
21 the US
22 and fieldwork?
23 A. Absolutely. The goal is also to check on the ground the
24 assertions put on official pictures. And as you will see on another
25 picture, the location where the excavator is digging, so most probably
1 creating a grave, there were even also surface remains at that location.
2 And then for sure subsequently the exhumation, full exhumation, conducted
3 on this spot fully confirms what can be seen on this aerial imagery.
4 Q. All right. And that will be the subject of other witnesses,
5 other reports.
6 All right. Let's go now to 224. We have imagery dated
7 21 September and 5 July. What's the purpose of this?
8 A. So the purpose of this one is, if you check the ground at the
9 beginning of the yellow arrow starting with the picture right-hand
10 5th July, terrain is undisturbed; and if you compare it with the one of
11 21 September, there is a clear disturbance. And this is the spot where
12 we started to check both for surface evidence and then sparked an
13 exhumation process.
14 Q. Was that -- was there a grave found to be there where that yellow
15 arrow-head is?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And was it determined to be disturbed or undisturbed?
18 A. Following pictures will show it more clearly, but, yes, it was
20 Q. All right. Let's go to 225.
21 A. This is a picture taken just at the edge of the area of disturbed
22 soil. It's human remains. One can see it's part of the bottom of a
23 spine on the picture. That had been pushed just in the bushes by the
24 excavator who buried the people.
25 Q. All right. We now have your videos of first Kozluk and then
2 A. I know there are a few, two or three, I think, following this
4 Q. We get to -- we'll get to the Pilica Dom right after this.
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. And Kozluk is 1195. And we'll start with that short clip.
7 [Video-clip played]
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I guess we can have sound, if there is any.
9 And thank you for trying to interpret. We appreciate that.
10 THE WITNESS: It's a video of the first arrival at the Kozluk
11 site. So broken glass. Human remains, bones. In fact, it's a leg with
12 some cloth around it. The shoe with the sock and a bone in it.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY:
14 Q. There's no sound on this, so thank you for narrating.
15 A. That's another shoe, I think. It's fuzzy. A big pile of broken
16 glass. This is investigator Jan Kryszewski looking for shell casings
17 alongside of the dirt road that is just next to the area where the human
18 remains are popping out of the soil, so it's a shell casing found.
19 Another shell casing. Shell casing again. That's the shovel we saw, a
20 better quality picture we see it on video.
21 That's a very short excavation we started. And we realised that
22 in fact it was a very, very shallow grave. And just by pulling out some
23 elements, in fact, we are beginning an exhumation, so the place was worth
24 being fully exhumed. Approximate number of people killed on this spot is
25 around 500. And the location is on the spot of a former Muslim cemetery
1 that has been destroyed.
2 These are labels from the embottlement factory. We found exactly
3 the same labels in three secondary mass graves. This is why we can know
4 the precise number of people killed there by adding those who were found
5 in the primary grave and adding the numbers of those found in the
6 secondary ones. That's why the total number reaches close to 500.
7 Q. And, at your time, you didn't -- all the graves had not been
8 exhumed yet, so would you be open for the possibility of those numbers
10 A. Yes, though the three secondary graves for Kozluk, we already
11 know them.
12 Q. Where is -- we've now switched from the grave to some place else.
13 Where is this still now?
14 A. Yes, I think this is when we are driving back and passing by the
15 Drina Wolves barracks, if I'm not wrong. Yes. I got out of the car and
16 was filming the passing by.
17 Q. Just to be clear, do you associate the Drina Wolves in any way
18 with any of these executions?
19 A. No, I don't, because I can't. I can only observe that their
20 barracks are extremely close by, but we have no -- as far as I know, no
21 admittance, no hard evidence, and nothing that connects them to the
22 killing on that spot.
23 Q. That remains the case today.
24 A. This is the embottlement factory.
25 Q. What you have referred to as the Vitinka bottle factory?
1 A. Yes, and that's the patch of the Drina Wolves. That's the
2 exhumation -- the beginning of the exhumation at Kozluk, 1999.
3 Q. And done by who?
4 A. Richard Haglund was the head archaeologist on this.
5 Q. Richard ...
6 A. Richard Wright.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 A. Sorry.
9 Q. Now, I believe we have a video of Branjevo.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I'd offer that last one into evidence.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: That was 1195, our number.
13 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P89, Your Honour.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: And now we have our number 1232 of Branjevo and
15 related material.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 Q. Do you remember when you were flying over Branjevo, what year
18 that was?
19 A. I flew twice, but this was probably again in the preparation of
20 the trial of General Krstic, so in 1998, I would think. So, yeah, okay.
21 This was -- the goal of this one is to show the distance between the
22 Branjevo farm and the village of Pilica
23 going on this natural road from Zvornik towards Banja Luka and Janja and
24 going north toward Banja Luka.
25 Now, in fact, this one is first from the school to the farm, so
1 that's the way from the school to the farm.
2 That's the farm. That's the large field. Here at the angle is
3 the mass grave. That's the structure. So the farm abandoned at that
4 time. The grave.
5 Q. I've just frozen it there. Can you orient us to what you've
6 previously described? You can't mark on this, unfortunately, with a
7 video, but I think that there's some things that we hopefully will
9 A. Yes, we -- one can see the garage at the right of the picture,
10 the white rectangle, that is the garage. So at the top of it is the
11 tree, and then if you take a straight line to the left, there is -- one
12 can see a separation. So from the tree to the left it's the area of the
13 execution field.
14 Q. Okay. And there's something growing there now. Do you remember
16 A. I remember something was growing, but I don't know what it was.
17 I'm not a botanist, I repeat.
18 Q. All right, let's just continue then.
19 A. Most probably corn.
20 So that's the access path to the farm with, again, at the right,
21 the two pigsties, at the bottom left the admin building, and above the
22 admin building one can see the garage. Again here there is a lot of
23 things growing on the area, which again shows that time runs against
24 evidence. Had we had to mow this huge field in order to find a few shell
25 casings, it would still be in process.
1 Q. And where did the buses bringing the prisoners park?
2 A. Just along this access path. Sometimes there were a few buses
3 jamming there, so the passengers in -- I mean, the witnesses will better
4 talk about this than I would do, but it would see everything.
5 Q. Okay. Let's continue then.
6 A. And that's the bottom. One could see the asphalt road going
7 to -- from Zvornik north to Janja. So that was the second -- one was in
8 March but very, very short, and this one was in April 1996.
9 Peter Nicholson is talking and filming. These are press people. That's
10 the area where the mass grave was supposed to be and where we made the
11 first and the second quick observations on the ground. That's the body
12 parts that was at the edge of this grave.
13 Third mission to the farm. Oh, it was more than third. So that
14 is the execution area. That's where the people were arriving. And
15 starting at the tree, execution field began. That's the day we were
16 looking for the shell casings on the surface.
17 Q. What are these things?
18 A. Shell casings.
19 Q. Okay. Is that the field that's now full of houses?
20 A. Absolutely. The place would be unrecognisable.
21 We were looking for a bridge one of the survivors talked about.
22 It's a bridge after he crawled away from the crime scene. He hid under a
23 bridge where there were destroyed vehicles. So we were looking around
24 also to try to identify a location that could match his declarations, and
25 this is indeed the location he was hiding under, at least that perfectly
1 matched his description.
2 Q. Any destroyed vehicle?
3 A. Yes, several. And we brought him back, anyhow, to that site, and
4 he recognised the locations.
5 Q. I don't see Humvees anymore. Can you tell us what troops are
6 providing the security for you now?
7 A. Russian troops were securing our missions at the north of this
9 Q. And who were driving the Humvees that we saw in the
10 Konjevic Polje area?
11 A. American forces. It's -- the multi-national division north had
12 control on the area that includes the crime scene, south being on the
13 American sector, and north being the Russian sector.
14 Q. Okay. Thank you. Okay, let's go to the next chapter. It's 226.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: And we'll offer that clip into evidence. It's
16 1232, our number.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P90, Your Honour.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY:
20 Q. So this time we see --
21 A. Branjevo we already dealt with. Next one will be Pilica.
22 Q. Okay. So let's go to 227. What does this have to do with the
24 A. So following the events at the Branjevo farm that took place from
25 10.00 in the morning through approximately 3.00 in the afternoon, the
1 order was given to the executioners of that place to move towards a
2 location nearby where allegedly 500 people were stored into a Dom of
3 culture, a cultural house, and had to be killed. So the squads moved
4 towards this location.
5 Q. And where did you get that information?
6 A. This information is coming purely from the Drazen Erdemovic. We
7 have no survivor of that spot. Without his declarations on this crime
8 scene, we would never had received any info about this location and the
9 events that took place there.
10 Q. Okay. And so did you go there and check this out?
11 A. Yes, we did.
12 Q. And so what is this picture we are looking at?
13 A. So on this picture, since according his declaration, the group he
14 was with, the 10 Sabotage Detachment guys did not take place in these
15 specific killings; they were in a cafe just in front of the Dom of
16 culture. So, indeed, there is a cafe just in front, and the next arrow
17 shows the location of the Dom of culture. He was witnessing the events
18 from the cafe across the road.
19 Q. All right. And let's go to 228.
20 A. So that's a front view of this house of culture. So, in fact,
21 this is the admin building; it's kind of a little town hall.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can I interrupt you shortly. The Judge Nyambe
23 has a question.
24 JUDGE NYAMBE: Yes, could you just go back to the previous
25 picture. Yes. I have a question for the witness.
1 In this picture, you are showing the Dom Kulture as a place of
2 execution; right?
3 THE WITNESS: Yes.
4 JUDGE NYAMBE: And what are those other houses around this place
5 in this picture?
6 THE WITNESS: They took care selecting, going from south to
7 north, locations which are at a distance of housings. But since all the
8 available facilities, the Grbavci school, the Rocevic School
9 Luke school, all these places were full, the last prisoners that had to
10 be taken north were taken to this place which is at 100 metres away from
11 the border between the Drina Corps and the corps which was just north.
12 And they never did anything in the area of responsibility of anyone else.
13 So the last location was this one. And all around, indeed, you are in
14 the middle of a village.
15 So the Grbavci school, there are also a few houses around. It's
16 a very tiny village. This one is a bigger village. So all these places
17 were, indeed -- there were citizens there.
18 JUDGE NYAMBE: At the time?
19 THE WITNESS: Yes.
20 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY:
22 Q. And this road we're looking at, how significant is this road as a
23 route from north to south or south to north?
24 A. It's the only main route that leads from north to south of the
25 Republika Srpska along the Drina Valley
1 to south.
2 Q. All right. Let's, okay then, go back to 228. I think you may
3 have been almost done. Anything else?
4 A. It's the view from the front. Seen from the road, this is the
5 view of this Dom of culture. At the time, because it's totally changed
6 also since then.
7 Q. All right. Let's go to one more picture before the break,
8 it's 229.
9 A. That's a view of the cafe where the guys from the
10 10 Sabotage Detachment were looking at the events, meanwhile having
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. This may be a good time to take a break,
13 Mr. President.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Very well. We'll have a break now for 30 minutes
15 and resume at a quarter past 4.00.
16 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, please continue.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
20 Q. We were at -- we had a picture of the cafe across the street from
21 the cultural centre. Now, let's go to 230, your next series of shots.
22 There's the -- that was 229. Let's -- now we are at 230. What is this?
23 A. This is a photograph taken from the inside of a cafe towards the
24 house of culture of Pilica. So one can see that there is, in fact, a
25 little metal structure, little construction, that hides the view, the
1 direct view, on the exit of the area that was used as the execution spot.
2 But as the witness said, he could still see things that he will probably
3 talk about, people managing to get out and being shot in the street, and
4 so on.
5 Q. Indeed. Okay. Let's go to 231.
6 A. So this is a side view when approaching this Dom of culture. The
7 theatre part of it is on the right side of this building. The entrance
8 door being the blue one at the right of the building.
9 Q. Okay. 232.
10 A. These are two access to the place. The metal door at the right
11 is the entrance to this theatre area. The blue door, wooden, at the left
12 gets to a staircase that accesses to the cabin of projector, the person
13 who was playing films, if this, in bracket, "theatre" was used as a movie
15 Q. Okay. 233.
16 A. This picture is to show that when we arrived to this spot the
17 door had been closed with a "cadenas." And obviously this "cadenas" had
18 not been removed since the cleanup of the place since there are spider
19 nests in between the two openings.
20 Q. Do you recall when you first got there?
21 A. This was in 1996, end of 1996. I would think August maybe.
22 Mid -- I don't remember when.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. We opened this "cadenas."
25 Q. And that's with the padlock, in English. I think you are talking
1 about the lock?
2 A. Sorry, padlock. The lock, yes. Padlock.
3 Q. All right. Let's go to 234. What is this?
4 A. This is a view of an inside of a theatre seen from the location
5 where there are little openings that enable the camera to project the
6 film, and this was the -- most certainly the first area where the
7 shooting started, since after the shooting had started from this
8 location, only then did soldiers enter through the main door and continue
9 the killing inside.
10 Q. Let's go to 235.
11 A. So indeed it's August 1996, so this is a sample collection, the
12 first sample collection that we did on the walls of the -- inside the
14 Q. 236.
15 A. This is an example of the type of the stains that were on the
16 walls. In this specific case, it's human blood and hair and pieces of
18 Q. 237.
19 A. Same type of picture, blood-stain and bullet-holes.
20 Q. 238.
21 A. That's the back of the theatre when climbing on the stage, a very
22 characteristic blood-stain in that location.
23 Q. 239.
24 A. So this is the wall totally at the back of the stage, since the
25 killers shooting from the top and also those entering the main door. The
1 people apparently took refuge in this last shelter area where grenades
2 were thrown, even underneath the wooden structure, because people were
3 probably hiding underneath, so these are traces that have been analysed
4 as being explosive traces and also blood traces.
5 Q. When you say explosive traces, what colour are we looking at of
6 those traces in this?
7 A. The black ones are explosive residues and the stains are
9 Q. All right. Let's go to 240. What's this?
10 A. This is an aerial imagery where indeed originally my markings in
11 yellow where the truck was marked but the traces of the rear door; I
12 marked the rear door. The 17 July is the day that followed this
13 execution and is the day of cleanup of this execution site. At the
14 location of the truck which is right at the main entrance of the
15 building, we didn't collect them but there were a few remains, like
16 rubber gloves. That's the cleanup.
17 One survivor, who -- the one who was hiding under the bridge,
18 also that day get out of this location and was along the asphalt road and
19 he saw a truck going direction south which is the direction of Branjevo
20 farm with a body full of remains with even some blood spilling out of it.
21 So that was probably a truck coming from the location of Pilica.
22 The bodies of those killed in Pilica have been transported for
23 burial, the 17 at the Branjevo farm. So the burial at the Branjevo farm
24 is both the burial of the victims killed at the Branjevo farm and at the
25 Pilica Dom.
1 Q. Now, you mark in yellow, you say "traces;" what are you pointing
2 at there?
3 A. Since these traces are going also to the back of the building,
4 one can assume that the cleaning of the place was done by both sides, the
5 main entrance and also the rear door.
6 Q. So, in your view, what were those traces made by?
7 A. By a truck.
8 Q. All right. Let's go to 241. What does this tell us?
9 A. This shows the direction that goes from the Dom towards the
10 Branjevo farm, which is very close by.
11 Q. Okay. Now you've -- we have another video of about 10 minutes of
12 this Dom of culture which we will play.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 A. This is our first arrival at the ...
15 The office of the mayor was at the first floor, and there was
16 also a civilian communication centre inside.
17 Q. So is this your very first arrival?
18 A. This is the very first one, because initially, according to the
19 first statement we had, but we didn't took by ourselves, of
20 Drazen Erdemovic, we were first looking for this location but in Janja,
21 so some 40 or 50 kilometres more north. That was the cafe just across
22 the road. The inside. One wall had been sealed after the events. There
23 was an access to the theatre that has been blocked. But someone did an
24 opening top-right so one can peep into it. That's the little
25 communication centre. That's the sealed door, fresh concrete. That's
1 what one could see peering through this little hole. And just in the
2 vicinity, indeed housings.
3 That's from the openings of the projectionist cabin. Though the
4 place had been cleaned, there were still a number of shell casings on the
5 stairs going up to this location, this cabin. The main door at the
6 bottom right. That's the projectionist cabin, and this is the stairs
7 going down. Here in the corner, the broomer forgot a shell casing. Some
8 more shell casings on the stairs.
9 That's the environment of the place. The Russian escort. The
10 cafe. A rubber glove just in front of the entrance. Now we open the
11 door. That's the holes from the projectionist cabin.
12 Q. So is this still that first time when you -- this is the first
13 time you walked in there?
14 A. This is the very first time, yeah. I was on the left, John Gerns
15 is in front, and Peter Nicholson is filming.
16 Q. Do you remember what month this was, what year?
17 A. I think at the beginning of the tape it was August 1996.
18 Q. How many people did Mr. Erdemovic estimate were in here?
19 A. They were told by the lieutenant-colonel who ordered them to go
20 to this location, he said that there were 500 prisoners inside.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you stop at that point for a moment. A
22 question from Judge Mindua.
23 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, just a question, Witness.
24 The film we've just seen, this is when you arrived in August 1996?
25 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
1 JUDGE MINDUA: [No interpretation]
2 THE WITNESS: Absolutely. I even returned for, in bracket,
3 "private means" in that location in, it was, I think, in 2003, and the
4 place was in exactly in the same shape. Any forensic expert could have
5 returned there and collect hundreds of samples.
6 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The question of Judge Mindua was not interpreted.
8 Mr. Tolimir, did you receive interpretation of this question?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Presiding Judge.
10 The question was interpreted to me.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Another question by
12 Judge Nyambe.
13 JUDGE NYAMBE: Actually, it's a follow-up question to --
14 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I am advised that it needs to be repeated because
16 the question is not on the transcript because it was not translated into
17 English. We were all on the French channel for that moment. Could you
18 please repeat your question.
19 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I shall repeat my question. The
20 witness said that he arrived at Pilica in August 1996 for the first time.
21 And my question was, therefore, to know whether at that time on the walls
22 of the Kulture Dom it was possible to see blood-stains, pieces of skin,
23 hair, and so on.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Do you want to add something?
25 THE WITNESS: No. My answer to that was that, yes, absolutely.
1 As I had exposed also this place had been sealed off after the cleanup
2 process of it, so then it was untouched. Proof of it is the locker and
3 the spider nests in between the doors. And, in addition to that, these
4 places have been untouched for years, and I did happen to return there, I
5 think, in 2003, it might have been 2002, but the same -- exactly the same
6 things were inside. And they said any forensic expert who had gone there
7 even in 2002 or 2003 would have collected hundreds of blood-stains.
8 The situation is the same in the Kravica warehouse. The place
9 has never been fully cleaned.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. Now we have the situation clear on
11 the record.
12 Judge Nyambe.
13 JUDGE NYAMBE: Yes. If you go back to page 35, line 16, you
14 state there that this is our first arrival at ... "The office of the
15 mayor was at the first floor." Was the office of the mayor on the first
16 floor of this building in which the executions took place?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes. That's what we were told upon arrival when we
18 were asking, you know, what is this place. First thing was, Oh, it's the
19 office of the mayor upstairs, and here it's telecommunication, civilian
20 telecommunication centre. And do you know if anything happened there?
21 For sure the answer was, We don't understand why you are here; nothing
22 ever happened here. And one hour later, everyone had vanished before we
23 opened the door.
24 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please carry on, Mr. McCloskey, with the film.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 THE WITNESS: These are a few items we did find during this first
3 check. This was the cover of a licna karta, I think. Brown. The shell
4 casing. I mean, the shell casings were mainly to be found in the corners
5 due to the brooming of the place, but it was done very roughly. Some ID
6 pieces with one with a legible name on it. That person appeared on the
7 missing list of the ICRC as missing from Srebrenica. This one.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay.
9 Q. Let's go to your next chapter. It starts at page 242.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: But let me offer that into evidence. It's our
11 number 1256.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P91, Your Honour.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY:
15 Q. Just -- we see this diagram, crime scenes area north, and you've
16 marked the places that we've just talked about. What's the purpose of
18 A. So this is, in fact, a summary of the main spots of the so-called
19 area north, so in yellow the places that had been selected for the
20 detention of the prisoners, and the red stars spotting the execution
21 sites of these prisoners. Knowing that this is not extremely accurate,
22 it's a graphic to indicate the main locations and how they fit together.
23 Q. Okay. 243.
24 A. Same type of map. It's the situation at 17 July, so the day
25 where the exhumation process is finalised. Executions being finished the
1 16, burial totally finished the 17. So on 17 July 1995, this is the
2 status of the known situation regarding mass graves. Those we went
3 through, area north and also area south with one that we had not
4 discussed yet, which is the main one in the area south, that is, Glogova.
5 Q. All right. Let's go to 244. Now we are getting into a series of
6 these aerial imagery. And what's the purposes of this section?
7 A. So as the exhumation process made us realise at the end of
8 summer 1996, in the main places that we could exhume during that summer,
9 we realised that indeed it was a massive burial places, but that these
10 mass graves had been emptied of part of their content and we didn't know
11 how much of their content. Was it half? Was it 80 per cent? We had no
13 So checking the situation with aerial imagery, we could sort out
14 that indeed these places had been subject to a further disturbance. So
15 this is Orahovac, the execution site close to Grbavci school. On the
16 picture at the left, one can see the scale of the disturbance dated the
17 7 September, so after the primary burial. And then one can see that on
18 27 September the situation is clearly very different. So this place has
19 again been turned upside-down and looks differently now.
20 Q. Okay. That's one of the sites that you spoke of at the Orahovac.
21 Let's go to 245. What's this?
22 A. So, again, it's exactly the same. This is the site LZ-1 where,
23 on 7 September, we can see the shape of the disturbance. And on
24 27 September 1995
25 completely changed. So it has been redisturbed again.
1 Q. And are these disturbances the detailed subject of the forensic
2 archaeologist and anthropology reports that go along with this
4 A. Sure. Everything about it is in the reports of the specialists.
5 Q. All right. So, again, you're not relying on these -- purely
6 these aerial imageries for these conclusions?
7 A. No, not at all. It's complementary.
8 Q. Okay. Let's go to 246. We are now back to the Petkovci dam, I
10 A. Yes. So the disturbance, anyhow, was so small that it could not
11 be spotted before checking the disturbance. This is why the primary
12 assumption was that there was no mass grave on this plateau because
13 aerial imagery could not show obvious disturbance. But knowing that
14 indeed there was a mass grave there because we found the elements, then
15 by comparing the photograph dated 7 September with then and obvious
16 disturbance 27 September, we could also figure out that this location had
17 also been disturbed, which was then later on confirmed once the full
18 exhumation of this area took place.
19 Q. Okay. 247, we go on to Kozluk.
20 A. So, again, exactly the same situation. The shape of the terrain,
21 7 September, after the burial of the victims had taken place there, and
22 on the 27 September, a much larger disturbance indicating that additional
23 work had been done between the 7 September and end of September 1995.
24 Q. And 248.
25 A. So this one is even more clear because this is an aerial from
1 Branjevo farm dated 27 September where these markings are US markings.
2 One can see, exactly at the location where the mass grave was located, a
3 newly excavated trench that did not exist after the burial process, so
4 after the 17 of July. And imagery analysts would say that indeed inside
5 the farm there is still a backhoe and a front loader. By looking at the
6 original picture, indeed one can see them.
7 Q. 249.
8 A. So this is a picture that was taken at the end of the exhumation
9 of Branjevo farm, so at the end of the summer 1996. This is the full
10 size of the initial mass grave site. And where the three persons are
11 standing, it's the only spot inside this grave where bodies could be
12 found. All the rest had been taken out of this large hole.
13 Q. And if we go back to the last photograph, 248. Is this that hole
14 that we just saw anywhere near --
15 A. This hole is at the location where it is now written "newly
16 excavated trench."
17 Q. All right. Let's go to 250.
18 A. So this picture is the picture of the bodies that were found
19 during the exhumation of the Branjevo farm. So the only bodies left in
20 the larger hole we saw previously is this stack of body. I think the
21 total number in the exhumation report is something like 110.
22 Q. All right. Now, you mentioned the one grave that we hadn't spent
23 a chapter on was Glogova. We're coming to some pictures. Could you just
24 again, very briefly, tell us the story where Glogova is and how it fit
25 into the investigation?
1 A. Glogova is in a location in between Kravica and Bratunac, going
2 from Kravica towards Bratunac. And Glogova ended up to be -- I mean,
3 after having started the cleaning process of Kravica warehouse, the first
4 bodies were taken to a remote location not far away from the asphalt road
5 on a -- and dumped alongside of a slope on a hill and covered with soil.
6 But they only did that with a few trucks. Later, the decision was made
7 to open a disposal place at Glogova. And Glogova became the spot where
8 they dumped all the bodies of those killed at the Kravica warehouse. But
9 unfortunately not only that - and this is why we will never have a
10 hundred per cent certainty of the number of killed at Kravica by counting
11 these bodies - the fact is that Glogova was also used to bury in graves
12 all the bodies killed in Bratunac town, and there were a certain number
13 of them, but also the place where they did put the bodies of people
14 killed alongside of the asphalt road. So the burial site of Glogova, the
15 bodies have multiple origins. It's a mixture of several origins that
16 make it impossible to determine from where these people are coming from.
17 Q. And you mention some bodies along the asphalt road. Can you
18 exclude the possibility that some of those people were killed in combat
19 trying to cross the road?
20 A. No one can ever exclude someone willing to commit suicide, but as
21 soon as someone reaches the asphalt road, he is there to surrender, as a
22 logical point. So if he gets killed there, it means that something has
23 happened. But I have no explanation about it.
24 Q. Okay. All right. So let's go to our first photograph of
25 Glogova. It's 251. And this is dated well after the events of Kravica
1 of 13 July. It's dated October. What's the purpose of this?
2 A. The purpose of this one is this is a shot that indeed indicates
3 even the date during which this disturbance of Glogova takes place, since
4 Glogova is split in two areas of graves. It's not one mass grave; it's
5 several graves at the right and a few others at the left. And on
6 30 October, there is a front loader busy exhuming one part of the Glogova
7 graves. It can be seen on the picture.
8 Q. All right. Let's go now to 252. What is this illustration?
9 A. This is also a visual of the sites area south, the red arrows are
10 the mass graves that have not been disturbed. At the right of Kravica,
11 the little red star is the site along this edge of the little hill that
12 has not been disturbed. But the two main sites of this area which are at
13 Glogova have been wiped out of most of their content. And the bodies,
14 the yellow arrow shows the direction, in fact, they were transported at
15 the opposite side of the Srebrenica safe area, completely south of the
17 Q. Let's go to 253.
18 A. So this picture is in the direction looking east, so the enclave
19 is at the left of the picture. And this aerial photograph spots, in
20 fact, the location where the six secondary graves are located.
21 Q. And how did you find those secondary graves?
22 A. Initially we had a human source that enabled us to spot two of
23 these sites. And subsequently having checked that indeed there were
24 multiple remains in them, we insisted on additional searches for aerial
25 imagery. And this is how we came up with imagery analysis that enabled
1 to find six of them.
2 Q. Okay. Let's go to 254.
3 A. This is, we call them Zeleni Jadar because it's the name of the
4 area. This is the secondary grave number 4, so ZJ-4. And that was our
5 first check of just underneath the surface. And here appears a human
7 Q. 255. Another illustration?
8 A. Mm-hmm. So we are now in the secondary phase of the burial
9 process. This is a group of graves, secondary graves, along the former
10 road that went from Zvornik to Tuzla
11 abandoned road. And this is a location close to Orahovac. The result of
12 the exhumation of those sites, I mean, not all of them, but several of
13 them, indicates that the bodies were coming, indeed, from Orahovac. This
14 was the secondary burial place for the bodies that had been taken away
15 from the two graves of Orahovac.
16 Q. And how did -- how were those graves found?
17 A. These ones, like all of the other ones we are talking about, were
18 found based on aerial imagery analysis.
19 Q. All right. 256.
20 A. This is, again, the so-called Hodzici Road with the aerial
21 photograph that shows the dispersion of these secondary sites all along
22 this stretch of dirt road.
23 Q. And did you go yourself to any of these sites to determine if
24 there were any human remains there before the full exhumations?
25 A. Absolutely, yes, I went to all of them.
1 Q. And what -- did you confirm anything?
2 A. On some, no confirmation; but on others, yes, there was
3 confirmation. But, nevertheless, all of them were put on the list for
4 full exhumation. I don't know if at this stage it's still done, because
5 we abandoned this exhumation aspect in 2001 to the Bosniaks and it
6 turned -- becoming an extremely slow process after 2001.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: And that will be the subject of an additional
8 report, Your Honours.
9 Q. Now, let's go to 257.
10 A. This is another cluster of graves in a -- secondary graves in the
11 area we name Liplje. And, again, the Djakovica location indicated that,
12 yes, there were multiple remains, so potentially mass graves. And after
13 exhumation, the connection was made by the analysts of the evidence found
14 inside as bodies coming from the dam, from Petkovci; Petkovci school,
15 exhumation of the dam.
16 Q. Just for the Trial Chamber, do you recall any examples of how the
17 connections were made, what kind of materials were related to both
19 A. The main connection for all of them was shell casings analysis,
20 since the shell casings were scattered all over the dead bodies, all over
21 the crime scene. Then these shell casings for many of them were buried
22 together with the bodies. And when these shell casings -- when the
23 bodies were taken out of these graves to be put in secondary graves,
24 again the shell casings were found. So there was a full analysis process
25 of all the shell casings to make matches between sites.
1 But in addition to the shell casings, there were also additional
2 elements: soil analysis; pollen analysis; green glass, for example, found
3 in a place we have not hit yet but coming obviously from Kozluk, with the
4 labels. The piece of severed pipe that was torn apart at Orahovac was
5 found in a grave at Hodzici. Pieces of the concrete structure of the
6 Kravica warehouse was found in one of the graves of Glogova. So, I mean,
7 there is full testimony getting into the detail of all the findings that
8 connect the places each with another.
9 Q. Okay. I think we now should go to 258.
10 A. So this is the area of Liplje where these four graves, secondary
11 graves, of those executed at the plateau of the dam were then hidden.
12 Q. All right. 259.
13 A. This is what we name the Cancari Road, which is a dirt road in a
14 valley. And these first nine spots indicate the location of secondary
15 graves which the forensic experts could connect with the bodies taken
16 away from the Branjevo farm.
17 Q. Any Kozluk connection that you remember?
18 A. It will come on the following slide where three more dots have to
19 be added on this valley.
20 Q. Okay. Let's keep going then. We should be on 260.
21 A. That's the view of the how looks the Cancari valley. It's a
22 remote place that has been totally ravaged by -- during the war time.
23 All the houses are destroyed. And makes a perfect hiding place for this
24 type of secondary graves.
25 Q. And 261.
1 A. So this is a full view of aerial imagery showing the entire
2 Cancari valley. The nine sites connected with Branjevo farm are at the
3 left of the pictures, so at the west. And there are three more sites
4 that appear in this red box. So in total 12 sites in the valley. The
5 first three being, in fact, the bodies that have been taken out from the
6 mass grave of Kozluk. And it's in one of these that when we saw the
7 labels Vitinka and the green glass we could instantly, indeed, make a
9 Q. All right. Let's go to 262.
10 A. So this is a picture taken from the aerial imagery in order to
11 put it in a shape. This is seen from far above. And the next one will
12 be a view from a helicopter.
13 Q. 263.
14 A. So this is how a secondary grave looks, and this is the set-up of
15 a -- for the exhumation team, which is going to go entirely through this
16 site which is the first one we processed in the valley, Cancari 12.
17 Q. And did you make a video for courtroom presentation to show, give
18 the Trial Chamber some -- a more specific detailed idea of a secondary
19 grave exhumation?
20 A. Yes, I did. The purpose of that initially was not to be used in
21 the courtroom, but I did it in order to show for the newcomers of the
22 exhumation team who are archaeologists what it is to -- what they are
23 going to do, since these bones were not a few thousands years old, it was
24 a bit of a new business for them also.
25 Q. Okay. One more photograph, 264. What's this?
1 A. This is the first layer after the start of the exhumation of
2 Cancari 12.
3 Q. And can you just give us a brief explanation how they got to be
4 in this sort of odd position like this with trenches on either side?
5 A. The experts will better talk about it than I would do, but the
6 problem they face in these situations is that these bodies have been
7 first buried with heavy equipment, after that they have been unburied
8 with heavy equipment, put on board of trucks, then re-dumped in secondary
9 graves; so many of them are body parts because they have been sliced by
10 the spoon of these heavy machines, and all the bodies are a bit more or
11 less intertwined. So for the sake of their work to take the body parts
12 as undamaged as possible, it was a very, very difficult task for them to
13 work on these secondary sites.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: And we now have 19 minutes. It's really the only
15 video evidence of this massive exhumation project. So I would play this
16 19-minute tape. It's our number 1306.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 Q. And if you can provide any necessary narrative.
19 A. So that's the arrival on Cancari 12. So from the ground it's
20 more or less impossible to see that something has been disturbed here.
21 When you are at the level of the ground, you don't see it. You have to
22 look at it from above. So that's a 360 of the area. Only destroyed
24 The road that, to the left, goes to the Drina valley, about
25 8 kilometres from here.
1 Q. During the exhumation, do you recall any Dutch jeeps driving up
2 and down the road?
3 A. It was not a Dutch jeep, it was a jeep from the police that had
4 been stolen to the Dutch battalion during the take-over of Srebrenica.
5 So here they are, in fact, mapping entirely the terrain. Taking
6 reference points. Then the little backhoe will start to take action and
7 scoop -- scoop a first layer of the terrain in order to determine what is
8 the real surface of the grave.
9 Q. Who is the man in the hat?
10 A. Richard -- Professor Richard Wright, who is overlooking the
11 operation. Now he is marking the terrain due to, in fact, difference of
12 colours of the soil. The earth turns green on such burial places because
13 of the melting of the bodies with the soil. It becomes greenish. By
14 putting these little markers, he is finding the limits of the grave.
15 So we were a little bit off limits because digging what was
16 supposed to be just after the limit, there were remains.
17 Q. What do you mean by that?
18 A. Flags were supposed to fix the limits of the grave so the
19 backhoe, after this limit, could dig. But unfortunately the limit was a
20 bit too short apparently, and when the backhoe dug, he ended up hitting
21 human remains.
22 Q. Is that the correct date of this?
23 A. For sure, yes.
24 Q. November 5th, 1998. Excuse me, 11 May 1998.
25 A. There is a trench dug alongside of the graves so that they can
1 work through the grave. But on this specific site we requested also that
2 they work first the surface so we could visualise the surface.
3 Q. These people we see now, do you know -- were they professionals
4 or are they just labourers?
5 A. No, they are all very highly qualified in their activity. They
6 are all archaeologists coming from various countries. So this is a hand.
7 When we first came on this site, the first dig revealed the presence of a
8 human foot, and we will see this foot now fully exhumed soon. There is
9 also a search for shell casings on-going during the exhumation.
10 Q. That's -- is that what the -- that's a metal detector?
11 A. Absolutely, yes. This is a skull. That's the beep indicating
12 the metal detector had found a shell casing. Here it is.
13 Q. Do you recall this Cancari 12 particular -- do you know what site
14 you think this was connected to?
15 A. Branjevo farm. So you can see it's like an archeological dig.
16 This is why the process is so lengthy also, but very precise.
17 Q. In your time, were they ever able to figure out how many people
18 this represents?
19 A. What I recall is that most of these sites -- I know that one at
20 least is much larger but was exhumed after my departure. Most of them
21 were between 80 and 180 people inside. So every evening the team was
22 covering the site to protect it in case it will rain. The place was
23 guarded day and night.
24 Q. How about any de-mining?
25 A. Yes, when the exhumation team arrived on the spot, there was
1 previous de-mining. What we did not do when we were doing the first
2 assessment of it, it would have taken much too much time. This is the
3 foot that we found when we went to this place the first time, because
4 there was a preliminary dig on all these sites prior deciding to start
5 the exhumation. So every one of them, remains, were found.
6 Q. Did you personally use a shovel to find many of these sites?
7 A. Yes, I did. That's a view from above.
8 Q. Can you briefly tell us where they are taking these human
10 A. At this point, they are taken to a container. And then later on
11 they are taken to the morgue. And at the morgue every body or piece of
12 body is being autopsied.
13 Q. And in your time was that done by an international team from the
15 A. Yes, absolutely. Yes, yes. It started in 1996 and it didn't
16 stop. This is an example of the difficulties they face in order to get
17 out a body part intertwined with other body parts. Sometimes to take
18 only one leg out of it can take a lot of time. And I cannot avoid to
19 make always the same comment when we hit these pictures is that the thing
20 that is missing on them is the smell.
21 Q. All right. Mr. Ruez, just the last few photographs in your book.
22 I will go now to 268. We've gone over these -- each of these graves, so
23 I'll go over to page 268 now.
24 A. The map before would be worth returning to, the one just before
25 this one.
1 Q. All right, team leader, let's go back. This is page 267.
2 A. Yes. Now, this one is of interest because, again, it's just a
3 graphic thing, but this marks all the most important crime scenes of this
4 case. The primary burial sites which are undisturbed, so just the few
5 ones at the south. All the main ones are totally disturbed. And the
6 locations of the secondary ones will be needed to have all the crime
7 scenes, all the concentration sites of prisoners. It will add too many
8 items on the map, but this shows the scale of this operation, both in the
9 distance but also in the number of sites involved. And it's a crime
10 scene that is 70 kilometres north/south and 40 kilometres east/west. So
11 it's not the usual scale of a traditional crime scene.
12 Q. And the people that helped exhume that, Bill Haglund,
13 Richard Wright, where did they get their experience, just very briefly,
14 so we know. Just -- Bill Haglund, for example?
15 A. Bill Haglund, prior working for this case, did exhumations in
17 Second World War.
18 Q. Okay. All right. I think we can now go to 268.
19 A. So this is a picture that I could assemble thanks again to the
20 video of Zoran Petrovic when he went to Srebrenica town. And this is the
21 last picture of the standing mosque in the centre of Srebrenica.
22 Q. And do you remember what date Petrovic would have gone into
23 Srebrenica to take this photograph?
24 A. Could be the 13.
25 Q. Okay. All right. Let's go now to 269.
1 A. This is the same mosque but after the take-over of Srebrenica.
2 Q. And who took this picture?
3 A. I took this picture.
4 Q. Would you remember roughly when?
5 A. In 1996. Probably around April, April or May.
6 Q. Okay. Let's go to 270.
7 A. That's at least one year later, as seen from above. That was
8 probably 1997. You can still see it.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we put that on e-court so he can ... It's a
10 bit hard to make out, I think, where this is.
11 Q. Could you just circle the area that you are talking about?
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. Okay.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'd like to offer that into evidence as well.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to 271.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P92, Your Honour.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY:
19 Q. This is 271.
20 A. That's a closer shot of the previous one.
21 Q. Okay. I think that's clear. Now, let's go to --
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, we saw a lengthy video of the
23 exhumation, do you want --
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: I apologise. Yes. I now -- that is number 1306.
25 Thank you, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
2 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P93, Your Honour.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay.
4 Q. So I think we see where you were talking about. As you said,
5 it's an enlargement. So if we could go now to the next shot, which is
6 272. What's this?
7 A. So this is, again, one year later again, but this time there is
8 nothing left to be seen because it has been levelled to the ground and
9 now it's -- where the yellow arrow points, it's just part of the
10 parking-lot of this area.
11 Q. Okay. We also see a structure with a tower or steeple; what is
13 A. This is an Orthodox church that is still intact, at least the
14 outside, as one can see, at that date.
15 Q. Okay. Let's go to 273.
16 A. That's another mosque in Srebrenica.
17 Q. And 274.
18 A. That's another view of the minaret.
19 Q. 275.
20 A. Same thing.
21 Q. And what happened to that particular mosque?
22 A. I didn't follow this one as closely as the other one, so I cannot
24 Q. All right. And the last picture in your book. This, again, we
25 see is a shot of what town?
1 A. Bratunac town.
2 Q. And this time we clearly see a picture of the -- down on the
3 right-hand corner, of the Bratunac Brigade; is that correct?
4 A. That is correct.
5 Q. All right. As well as the other things that you've mentioned
7 A. And this one should fit in the part that we dedicated to Bratunac
8 being at the evening of 13 of July, the main assembling area for all of
9 the prisoners taken during the operation, I mean, taken between the
10 12 and the 13 evening.
11 Q. All right.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: And, Mr. President --
13 Thank you, Mr. Ruez.
14 -- that brings this -- his testimony, from the Prosecution's
15 perspective, to a close. I would offer this book into evidence, the
16 electronic version, as well as the hard copy, 1450.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This compilation of photos and the book will be
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: And we have hard copies of --
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just a moment.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P94, Your Honour.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: We have hard copies of this, if the Court wishes
23 to have them. Otherwise, I guess it's break time as well.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Chamber will appreciate to receive that, the
25 hard copy. And I think now we adjourn for the second break. And then,
1 Mr. Tolimir, you can start cross-examination.
2 We adjourn and resume at 6.00.
3 --- Recess taken at 5.35 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 6.05 p.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, please start your cross-examination.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
7 My greetings to all those present. May peace be with you, and
8 may this trial be completed in accordance with God's will.
9 I would like to thank the Prosecution, specifically
10 Mr. McCloskey, for having presented some elements from the investigation
11 that may be helpful to the Defence, since the Defence did not have an
12 opportunity to conduct this sort of investigation out in the field and is
13 unable to hear out the eye-witnesses of these events as Mr. Ruez could
14 have for a period of time while he was the OTP investigator.
15 And I would like to thank Mr. Ruez for providing me with certain
16 elements in replying to the questions put by the Prosecution which will
17 help shed light on certain facts. And I'm sure that through the
18 examination, Mr. Ruez will be able to provide certain helpful information
19 that will be of assistance to the Trial Chamber as well in establishing
20 matters related to had case.
21 I would like to commence my examination.
22 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:
23 Q. [Interpretation] Depending on how cross-examination will develop,
24 we will be drawing upon some of the comments that you made which were
25 very extensive, and at some points you also drew certain conclusions.
1 The Defence believes that based on the elements presented by you in the
2 examination-in-chief will require ten hours to complete their
3 examination, which is the amount of time used up by the Prosecution.
4 And, at any rate, the Prosecution will have an opportunity to re-examine
6 Before I proceed to ask you about your personal background, I
7 would like to put to you several general questions related to the book
8 that you presented over the two days now, and which was also presented in
9 the Popovic et al. case. And I hope we shall be able to complete these
10 questions today, otherwise it will take us to April.
11 It's, in fact, a series of photographs that I would like you to
12 answer certain questions about. Based on which criteria did you select
13 the photographs that you included in your book?
14 A. Indeed, these pictures are an extract of a much larger set of
15 pictures. The selection is done in the purpose to be as short and
16 precise as possible for a short presentation of this long series of
17 events, and enable people who have no opportunity to go and see these
18 places by themselves to have a feeling of how they look like or how they
19 looked like.
20 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us when the book was made. Was it
21 during your term of office as the chief investigator of the ICTY for
22 Srebrenica, or thereafter? Thank you.
23 A. In fact, this book exists now in the format of a book, but for me
24 it was a bit like a PowerPoint presentation. It was -- always was an
25 electronic version, and it improved, let's say, with time, because I used
1 more or less the same exhibits for all the trials I testified for. So
2 this specific one was indeed done just -- finalised just before the trial
3 you mentioned; Popovic, Beara, and others, the seven.
4 Q. Thank you. We can, therefore, conclude that you did the work for
5 the purposes of your testimony in that case? Thank you.
6 A. Yes, absolutely.
7 Q. Thank you. Mr. Ruez, yesterday during your testimony at page 6
8 of the transcript, you gave us comments on a map.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we call up
10 Prosecution 65 ter 01450, page 5. Do we have it? Thank you, we have it.
11 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
12 Q. You said that the grey line roughly depicted the boundaries of
13 Srebrenica, that's to say, the Srebrenica enclave, because, and I quote:
14 "There was no actual boundary, and that's the boundary of the
15 protected area."
16 What is it exactly that you meant, and what's the basis for your
17 conclusion as presented to the Trial Chamber? Thank you.
18 A. The reason why I didn't name the grey line boundary is because
19 according to what I heard both from the Bosniaks who were inside, from
20 people from the UN Battalion who was there, and also from Bosnian Serb
21 army personnel was that this could not be called boundaries. It was --
22 it was lines which were, in fact, moving with the time. When UN soldiers
23 were leaving an area, sometimes then it was chewed up by the Bosnian Serb
24 army. So these lines, in fact, only exist through the position of the
25 observation posts. It was not something frozen on a map.
1 Q. Thank you. For Their Honours' benefit, can you tell us, since
2 you were involved in the investigation concerning Srebrenica, do you know
3 that the boundaries of the zone were established when the agreement for
4 the demilitarisation of the zone was signed? And that's important to
5 establish for the purposes of this case.
6 A. It could very well be, but for the sake of a criminal
7 investigation about the facts that happened after the take-over, fixing
8 the limits of the enclave was very far away from what I thought my duty
10 Q. Thank you for your answer. Do you know that there existed a map
11 of the demilitarised zone, or was there not such a map? Thank you.
12 A. I have not a clue about this since this demilitarised zone was
13 created before the events I was tasked to investigate.
14 Q. Thank you. Since in your capacity as an investigator you
15 investigated everything, do you know that the agreement on the
16 demilitarised zone contained a map, and do you know where this map can be
17 found today, and have you seen the map at all?
18 A. Again, I have to repeat that the investigation - and this is what
19 I always used to say - the investigation starts 11 July beginning of the
20 afternoon after an air-raid that made everyone realise that the enclave
21 would not be defended and people started to take to direction for
22 fleeing, and subsequently you saw the number that I unfolded during my
23 testimony happened. The investigation is about these events. I never
24 looked into what could have happened in this area since 1992 and
25 specially not into all the type of agreements that had been made
1 regarding sharing of terrain or whatsoever.
2 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, as an investigator, whether an ICTY
3 investigator should keep in mind the agreement signed between two sides
4 in an area that is the subject of a case before a court of law?
5 A. My answer is no. The purpose of the investigation I was busy
6 with was to identify what became the fate of both the civilians of that
7 area and the military of that area once they ended up captured and in the
8 custody of the Bosnian Serb army. That was the sole purpose of this
10 Q. Thank you. Were you at all interested in what prompted the
11 conflict and the events discussed in this case? Thank you.
12 A. No. My objective was not to try to explain why the perpetrators
13 committed their acts but to prove the facts of the acts that they have
15 Q. Thank you. Is it at all important for this case, in accordance
16 with the indictment which you should be aware of since you wrote it based
17 on the information from your investigation, to know the genesis of the
18 conflicts and problems that existed in Srebrenica?
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection to a misstatement of the fact. There's
20 no indication that Mr. Ruez wrote any indictment, and so he needs to be
21 careful not to misstate key facts. I will try to remain quiet, but key
22 facts, like who wrote the indictment, I think I need to object to.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, watch the objection of
24 Mr. McCloskey. I'm quite sure that this witness was not the author of
25 the indictment. Please carry on, but bear that in mind.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I am mindful of that,
2 and I said in the latter part of my question that the indictment was
3 written based on the information provided by Mr. Ruez as an investigator.
4 I apologise if I erred or was -- went beyond the rules in my question.
5 Thank you, Mr. President, I will bear that in mind.
6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mr. Ruez, based on what information did you draw the limits or
8 boundaries of the enclave, and why did you draw them if they are not
9 important? Or alternatively, what was the basis for the boundaries that
10 you drew if you did not have direct information about it available?
11 Thank you.
12 A. It is of so little importance for this investigation that what I
13 drew on this map is the blue square that indicates the location of the
14 Srebrenica safe area. This map is based on, if I remember well, a
15 Dutch map. I don't exactly remember what we used as a background
16 picture, but, again, had this map no observation posts and no grey zone
17 as a boundary, my blue square would be far enough for the sake of what I
18 wanted to explain to this courtroom.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ruez. Can you mark for us on this map the urban
20 area of Srebrenica. If you can, I would kindly ask you to mark it, if
21 you can use this map. Otherwise we can call up a different map.
22 A. I've left my glasses in the witness room, but I can succeed doing
23 it without it. So roughly --
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Court Officer will bring it.
25 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
1 But, I mean, roughly, anyhow, it's rough, this will be more or
2 less the urban area of Srebrenica town.
3 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Ruez.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I kindly ask the Presiding Judge to
5 admit this map into evidence. Thank you.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D19, Your Honours.
8 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Mr. Ruez, yesterday at page 6 of the transcript you mentioned the
10 gathering of the 28th Division in the area of the village of Susnjari
11 You did not pronounce it that way, but that's what you meant. Was it
12 known how -- what the strength of the column was?
13 A. The total number of the column, the global assessment from
14 various sources, puts the figure up to approximately 15.000 people among
15 which, according to the information that I could receive from the
16 2nd Corps of the BiH Army, was that 6.000 men from the 28th Division
17 arrived safely on Muslim-held territory.
18 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us more precisely what the strength of
19 the column was when it set out from Susnjari? That's what I meant. I
20 didn't want to know how many of them arrived in Zenica [as interpreted].
21 But do you know what Ramiz --
22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the last name.
23 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
24 Q. -- and other Muslim commanders said in terms of the column? I
25 know that they mentioned women as well.
1 A. Again, I have to say that the military historical part of this
2 case was not the topic of the investigation. The investigation is about
3 the fate of those who surrendered or were captured and ended up being
4 prisoners of war in the hands of the Bosnian Serb army. I had no
5 interest into looking if these people were carrying handguns, hunting
6 guns, or heavy machine-guns, or tanks, or whatsoever. This was not the
8 The investigation is upon the fate of people who were -- ended up
9 missing and who were captured prisoners. This is the topic of the
10 investigation, not the military aspect of the surrounding battles or
11 military aspects.
12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ruez. My question wasn't concerned with the
13 weapons that they had. I only wanted to know the number of those who
14 left, the number of those who managed to get out. So I was interested in
15 the number of people who left Susnjari in the column. I suppose that you
16 gained that information through your investigation and through the
17 statements of individuals, some of whom appeared as witnesses here.
18 Thank you.
19 A. Yes, I already have answered this question. It was three
20 questions before. You have the answer in the transcript. 15.000, among
21 which 6.000 from the BiH Army.
22 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us what of the remainder, if we subtract
23 6- from 15.000 we are left with a large number of people. What became of
24 them? Thank you.
25 A. What became of them is exactly the topic of what my task was,
1 since the number of the disappeared people was fixed by the ICRC at
2 approximately 8.000. So the purpose of all this investigation was to
3 determine where did these 8.000 vanish and what happened to them. This
4 is exactly the heart of the investigation indeed.
5 Q. Thank you. There is a difference of 9.000 individuals. If
6 15.000 set out and only 6.000 managed to get out, according to your
7 calculation 9.000 are missing. So the question remains what of these
8 people, what happened to them?
9 A. You misunderstood and you misread my answer, General. I said the
10 column was composed of 15.000 people, among which 6.000 declared as being
11 BiH Army personnel. So you have a difference of 9.000. Again, this
12 number is an approximate. The number we rely on talking about missing
13 persons is ICRC, 8.000.
14 Q. Thank you. I do agree that you should correct me if I
15 misunderstand you. Just answer this question for me, will you: Do you
16 know how many people set out from Susnjari and how many got out and
17 reached Tuzla
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. This has been asked and answered
19 several times now.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, but I
21 would really want those who understand how many got out. If 15.000 set
22 out and 6.000 were members of the army, what of these remaining 9.000?
23 What are they? Civilians.
24 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Can the witness answer that? Thank you.
1 A. If I really want to please you, I will say that one could
2 consider that none of them was a civilian except the women since a few
3 days before the enclave was taken over, there was an order of general
4 mobilisation of all the men within the enclave. So, again, I have to
5 insist that the sake of the investigation is to determine the fate of
6 people who were prisoners, who ended up being prisoners. Either they
7 were military dressed in military or military dressed in civilian clothes
8 or total civilians, doesn't matter once their status is the one of the
9 status of prisoners.
10 Q. Thank you. Now I understand. So in addition to women, there
11 were 15.000 able-bodied men who set out, according to your investigation.
12 Is my understanding correct?
13 A. We can say it like this.
14 Q. Thank you. Did only 6.000 manage to get out or some of those who
15 had been mobilised before they set out with the column? And I mean aside
16 the 6.000 who were registered as members of the army, were there others
17 who managed to get out? Thank you.
18 A. Again, the goal of the investigation was not to determine how
19 many people managed to get out alive of the Srebrenica safe area, but to
20 determine the fate of those who were declared missing. So knowing how
21 many people ended up alive in the area of Tuzla was really not the
22 concern of this investigation.
23 Q. Thank you. Based on your answer you have just provided, may I
24 conclude that as a result of your investigation you basically did not
25 learn of the exact number of those out of the column who eventually
1 reached Tuzla
2 A. No, the precise number is not -- is not known to me.
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ruez. I'm content with this answer.
4 Yesterday in your testimony at page 8 of the transcript, line 21,
5 you discussed a number of people assembled in Potocari. And without
6 going into the figures, because I want you to share that information,
7 what was the number of people who gathered there, in your view?
8 A. I have no precise figure. There were -- there were approximately
9 25.000 refugees coming from Srebrenica who arrived in Tuzla and the area
10 of Tuzla
11 this number, I think the Red Cross could be the good source of
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ruez. I pointed it out because yesterday at
14 page 8, line 21, you stated that you tried to ascertain the number of
15 those assembled in Potocari; that is the way I understood it. How did
16 you as the investigator decide on the figure? Perhaps this may be of
17 interest to the Chamber as well. And, please, bear with me for asking
18 questions about things I don't know. I believe such pieces of
19 information may be useful for both me and the Chamber.
20 A. Okay. Again, I have to insist on the fact that for the sake of
21 the investigation the only number of importance is the number of people
22 missing, since we hope at the end of the entire exhumation process and
23 identification by DNA
24 prove had been executed as they were prisoners. This is the important
1 For the other figures, the estimates, the estimates that everyone
2 was using at that time was indeed a column of a strength of approximately
3 15.000 and a population of refugees of approximately 25.000. So that
4 puts the total of the population inside the enclave to approximately
5 30.000, which was also an estimate of NGOs and UN and so on. But all
6 these figures are estimates anyhow. I don't think anyone knows precisely
7 what these numbers were.
8 Q. Thank you. Since you consulted various sources in your
9 investigation as well as interviewed a number of witnesses who appeared
10 in this case, can you tell us where this Defence can find the exact
11 number of people who left Potocari and eventually set out for Tuzla
12 A. Maybe the intelligence service of former Bosnian Serb army, they
13 might have indications on this from their security offices and their
14 personal sources.
15 Q. Thank you. That was probably one of the channels you used
16 yourself in your investigation. Since I have no means of contacting
17 them, I wanted to ask you this: Do you know how many B&H soldiers set
18 out from Srebrenica to Zepa?
19 A. No, I have to correct you. My sources, unfortunately, were not
20 the security officers nor their commanders, talking about the
21 intelligence service of Bosnian Serb army. I didn't say the BiH Army; I
22 said the Bosnian Serb army.
23 Regarding the second part of your question, indeed the number of
24 6.000 Bosnian -- BiH soldiers who reached safe territory, this figure was
25 given to me by officers from the 2nd Corps of the BiH Army.
1 Q. Thank you. I am content with this answer.
2 I noticed that you previously said that 6.000 soldiers arrived,
3 but I was interested in the number of people who left Srebrenica and went
4 towards Zepa. Can you please answer that.
5 A. My task was the investigation on the events that follow the
6 take-over of the Srebrenica safe area. I was at no point involved in the
7 investigation regarding what happened after the fall of Zepa nor the
8 military situation in between the Srebrenica situation and the Zepa
9 situation. So I cannot answer your question, sorry.
10 Q. Thank you, sir. I asked you this because the Prosecutor, when
11 they put you on their witness list, stated that you were to testify on
12 all relevant counts on the indictment. My indictment, as you know,
13 includes Zepa. So the way I understand your answer is that you did not
14 investigate Zepa as can be concluded based on your testimony. Thank you.
15 A. You are right.
16 Q. As an investigator and a person who interviewed a number of
17 people appearing in this case, can you tell us how many people from
18 Srebrenica eventually arrived in Zepa? Thank you.
19 A. I know only about one, because he is a survivor from the Kravica
20 warehouse who then went to Zepa. In Zepa he was captured. He was put in
21 a prison camp. And he was subsequently released, I think, among the last
22 ones around February/March 1996. This is the only case of someone who
23 had a connection with Zepa. I cannot say anything about Zepa.
24 Q. If possible, could you tell us the name of that person so that
25 this Defence could rely on that source of information as well, or should
1 we submit that request to the Prosecutor?
2 A. Yes, you will have to request the Prosecutor.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Can we go into private session briefly.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
6 [Private session]
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: We are now in public session, Your Honour.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. McCloskey. We have
16 received his name. We, nevertheless, wanted to ask the witness that,
17 although we received that information from you. Among other things, we
18 believe it is important to know how many people actually went to Zepa.
19 Thank you.
20 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Witness, can you tell us why your investigation did not encompass
22 Zepa and the events in that enclave, because it was included in both the
23 Popovic et al. indictment as well as in my indictment? Thank you.
24 A. The reason is simple. First, I do not decide as an investigator
25 or even an investigation team leader what the topics of the investigation
1 should be. I was busy with the events following the take-over of
2 Srebrenica safe area. It was a task large enough, I think. And I have
3 never been tasked to investigate events in Zepa.
4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ruez. First I'd like to clarify something before
5 putting my question. Concerning certain portions of the Petrovic
6 footage, you say that you learned of some of it as late as 2001. You
7 said so yourself at page 10, lines 22 to 25. If I'm not mistaken,
8 between -- since April 2001, you were no longer and investigator on the
9 Srebrenica team and you did not work for The Hague Tribunal. How did you
10 learn of this video under such circumstances? If you wish to refer to
11 the exact part of your testimony, I would direct you to page 10, lines 22
12 to 25. How did you obtain that footage?
13 A. Indeed, at that time, I was no longer a member of the OTP. I was
14 on an island in the Caribs, and two journalists made the trip to show me
15 the footages at my house. And that happened more or less in the same
16 time-frame these footages had reached this Tribunal also.
17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ruez. After April 2001 after you stopped working
18 for the Prosecutor's Office, did you take any part in any further
19 Srebrenica investigations? Can you explain to us what you did between
20 2001 and later on? And in one of my following questions I will address
21 the earlier period between 1995 and 2000.
22 A. After April 2001, I did not continue at all working on the
23 investigation, since I was no longer a member of this Tribunal. But I
24 continued to be in contact with the Tribunal since I was supposed to
25 continue to testify for whatever coming trial connected with this
1 Srebrenica case.
2 Q. That you, Mr. Ruez. If this is so, after 2001 did you ever visit
3 Srebrenica again? And if so, when and why?
4 A. To Srebrenica as a precise location, yes. One was for the sake
5 of the outreach programme of the Tribunal to give a conference in
6 Srebrenica itself. And the other time was to accompany a journalist who
7 wanted to do a report on the Srebrenica events. So twice to Srebrenica
9 Q. If it is not a secret, could you tell us what were the years?
10 What was the year you went back for the first time and then the second?
11 A. We reverse the thing, the first time was with the journalist; I
12 think it was in 2002. I'm not a hundred per cent sure. And for outreach
13 I'm not sure also; it might have been 2004, maybe 2005. I'm not certain.
14 Q. Thank you. At the outreach conference, did any of the current
15 OTP employees take part who had worked with you while you were a member
16 of the Prosecution?
17 A. Mark Harmon; senior trial attorney Mark Harmon was present in
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ruez. In the course of today and yesterday in
20 your testimony, you frequently mentioned witness statements. Did you
21 have in mind the statements of witnesses given to you who -- or to the
22 ICTY, and were these people soldiers or ex-B&H policemen? I am not sure
23 whether I understood your testimony properly.
24 A. I always need to refer to witness statements because without
25 these witness -- most of the goal of such an investigation is -- once you
1 have compiled witness testimonies, is to create a chronology of events
2 that enables you to have a view of a situation; and since you cannot buy
3 the information provided as being facts, you then need to go on the
4 ground and check the elements that can either implement what you heard
5 from these people or what you read from their testimonies, or maybe also
6 find out that due to what you can see on the ground these people have no
8 So I always refer to witness testimonies; either people I
9 interviewed myself, or people who were interviewed by other
10 investigators. But it's a constant reference, indeed, to witness
12 Q. Thank you. In order to have a complete answer, I would like to
13 ask you this as well: Did you make use of the statements of those people
14 whom you chose to have appear as witnesses, and did you provide their
15 statements to B&H authorities and the MUP?
16 A. It went the way reverse. Once we had interviewed a witness, the
17 sole destination of the information is the Prosecutor of the ICTY, never
18 ever the local police or whoever in the area. Nevertheless, the way it
19 worked the way around. Most of these witnesses, we found out about their
20 existence by going through a huge number of statements that were
21 initially collected by the Bosniak war crime commission and also by the
23 And we went through all these statements in order to sort out
24 among them those we believed were the most interesting. And then we
25 systematically requested these people for an interview. We didn't take
1 the counts given to the local police or the war crime commission,
2 especially at the moment the events were very hot. So we re-interviewed,
3 systematically, all those that we considered as being key information
5 Q. Thank you. I asked you about this because there is a number of
6 witnesses whose statements we received and were taken while you were the
7 investigator, and there were also statements given to B&H authorities and
8 the MUP. Such statements given to the B&H Army and MUP is something that
9 these witnesses deemed as unimportant. That's why I wanted to ask you
10 something about the method of selection of those witnesses and if you
11 could please explain that.
12 A. Yes. As soon as July and August 1995, as we were in Tuzla
13 that summer, we got access to several hundreds of statements from the war
14 crime commission that I already mentioned, from the MUP, from also --
15 some from UN civil affairs. We also spread questionnaires in refugee
16 camps to NGOs in order for people who would have something of high
17 relevance to be able to contact us.
18 And based on all this, we made several packets, let's say. One
19 packet was people who had information regarding the situation they
20 experienced in Potocari. A second group was people who had things of
21 importance to say about the deportation route between Potocari and
22 Kladanj. And the main statements, those of utmost importance, was the
23 last group of those who claimed having either witnessed executions or
24 survived executions.
25 And after that, the goal was to narrow down the information since
1 for sure the survivors - there were not many - but interesting witnesses
2 for all the rest, there were a lot, so we had to do a selection.
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ruez.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, we are approaching the end of
5 today's sitting. It's 5 minutes to 7.00. We learned that the
6 Prosecution would like to raise some procedural matters. You will have
7 plenty of time for your cross-examination, but for today I think we
8 should break and end the cross-examination. I hope everybody can agree
9 with that.
10 Mr. Ruez, I think for today this concludes your examination and
11 the cross-examination, but it's not the last day. You should --
12 Mr. Tolimir, you want to raise something?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Presiding Judge. I
14 just wanted to thank Mr. Ruez, especially because we don't know when
15 exactly he will continue his testimony. He provided specific and
16 accurate answers to the questions I put. I just wanted to wish him a
17 happy holidays when he rejoins his family.
18 I would like to thank you again, Mr. Presiding judge.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir.
20 Do you want to say something in the presence of the witness?
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, I think practically that would be a good
22 idea. Mr. Ruez is used to being ordered not to speak to the Prosecution
23 during the breaks in testimony. I've just realised I'm not aware of this
24 Trial Chamber's practice in that regard. I don't think it's the law,
25 frankly, I think it's a practice. So I would ask you that.
1 But I would also -- there are two issues related to contacting
2 him: One being the scheduling. Our next meetings are 14 and 15 April.
3 We would like to get him in a two-day block which is as we all know we
4 have, and we really need to be able to discuss with Mr. Ruez what days
5 are the best for him. And I certainly hope that the General will finish
6 in two days because it would be very difficult to bring Mr. Ruez back
7 again for a third time.
8 So if I will have a chance to discuss his best days. Ideally,
9 the closer to now the better. But, as you know, we were hoping that
10 without one of the witnesses we might be able to finish. This time, we
11 didn't make it. But if I could speak to Mr. Ruez on logistic grounds
12 and -- before he leaves, we should be able to get back to the Court the
13 best day. So if it is, in fact, April 14th and 15th or perhaps the
14 following week or the week after.
15 So if I could have the ability to contact him on his schedule,
16 we, of course, notified him that there's a good chance that he was coming
17 back, so this is not a surprise, but we do need to connect with that so
18 we can get the information for him and to you.
19 The second is slightly less serious, but, nevertheless,
20 important. We were hoping to be able to see Mr. Ruez tonight in a more
21 social setting where we would, of course, not speak to him about the case
22 at all but would - and I've informed Mr. Gajic of that fact - and would
23 ask your requested approval for that.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Taking into account that you indicated 11 hours
25 and 45 minutes for examination-in-chief and Mr. Tolimir indicated
1 10 hours of cross-examination, I think we can be optimistic that two days
2 are enough for cross-examination, perhaps re-examination, and some
3 additional questions by the Chamber.
4 Dealing with the first problem. Mr. Ruez, could you indicate if
5 you are available on the 14th and 15th of April?
6 THE WITNESS: It is a bit too early for me to make sure of this.
7 I first have to go back to my office and check a few things, but I think
8 we can bet that I can come back before the end of April.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
10 Mr. Tolimir, you have heard about the wishes of the Prosecution
11 to have the leave of the Chamber to contact him about scheduling of the
12 continuing of your cross-examination. Are you in agreement with that?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Presiding Judge, the Defence
14 trusts that both Mr. McCloskey and Mr. Ruez are professionals, having
15 been in the trade for many years, and we do not want to pose any
16 problems. We leave it in your hands to decide on the matter. Thank you.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Do you have the same opinion for the second
18 request, that Mr. McCloskey and colleagues are allowed to socialise with
19 the witness for dinner or something like that if they promise not to
20 raise any question to this case? Would you be in agreement with that?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We are
22 in agreement with that and do wish to enable them to meet and socialise
23 as old friends either on private or professional business. We do not
24 mind. Thank you.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for that.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, your request is granted. You may
3 contact the witness about the further appearance here in the Tribunal.
4 And we wish you a wonderful Easter dinner together with the witness.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are there any other questions about scheduling?
8 Thank you very much. Mr. Ruez, for today you are free to return
9 to your normal activities or for dinner, and we wish you and all others
10 present in the courtroom happy Easter, good holidays, and all the best
11 for you.
12 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We adjourn now, and resume on the 14th of April,
14 9.00, in this courtroom.
15 We adjourn.
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.
17 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 14th day
18 of April, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.