1 Thursday, 15 April 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning to everybody in the courtroom.
6 Judge Mindua is again not available today. The Chamber decided
7 to sit pursuant to Rule 15 bis on with two Judges this morning.
8 Could the next -- is the next witness ready, then? In that case,
9 he could be brought in.
10 Mr. McCloskey.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honour.
12 This witness will be testifying in Dutch, and it's my
13 understanding the Dutch interpreter, who's in one of the booths, will be
14 listening in English and translating the English to Dutch and back again,
15 so it may take a little while -- a little longer than we're used to. But
16 we'll try to go slow, so it shouldn't be a problem.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for that.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: And he will be a 92 ter witness, and I won't
19 spend too much time with him.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning, sir.
22 Welcome to the Tribunal. It's not the first time that you're
23 here as a witness, so I think you know the procedure very well.
24 Could you please read aloud the affirmation which is shown to you
25 now on the card.
1 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
2 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 WITNESS: PAUL GROENEWEGEN
4 [The witness answered through interpreter]
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Please sit down.
6 Mr. McCloskey has some questions for you.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
8 Examination by Mr. McCloskey:
9 Q. First, can you give us your name, and spell it for the court
10 reporter, please.
11 A. [Interpretation] My name is Paul Groenewegen, which is spelled
12 P-a-u-l, Groenewegen, G-r-o-e-n-e-w-e-g-e-n.
13 Q. And is it fair to say you understand English pretty well, but
14 that speaking, you much prefer to speak Dutch, and you speak -- sorry,
15 I'll just leave it at that.
16 A. That is right.
17 Q. And you do recall testifying here in July 1996 at the Rule 61
18 hearing, July 2003 at the Blagojevic trial, and October 2006 in the
19 Popovic trial?
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. Okay. Now, if you were asked questions on this case, would your
22 answers be the same as they were before?
23 A. Of course, yes.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. And I am going to read a brief summary
1 We would like to mark the Popovic testimony as the -- excuse me,
2 the Blagojevic testimony as the 92 ter statement; that is, R6206. And I
3 would offer that into evidence.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please repeat the number. I think it is recorded
5 not correctly.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: R number is 6206.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. And this is the testimony of the
8 Blagojevic case. Yes. That will be received.
9 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit P98, Your Honour.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. And I will read a brief summary now.
11 Mr. Groenewegen enlisted in the Dutch Army in January 1994, when
12 he was 17 years old. He was sent to Bosnia
13 served there from January through July 1995. At the time, he was a
14 private assigned to Charlie Company based in Potocari, with assignments
15 to OP rotations at OP Mike and OP November.
16 In early July 1995, Mr. Groenewegen was stationed at OP Mike.
17 During this time, Bosnian Serb forces were shooting towards the OP with
18 small-calibre and large-calibre weapons and mortars. He learned that the
19 other OPs were also coming under fire at that time. He left OP Mike and
20 returned to Potocari on 10 July.
21 On 11 July, he was on duty in Potocari when Muslim refugees came
22 into Potocari, and he described them as exhausted and full of fear. That
23 day, the base filled up with Muslim refugees, and after that, the
24 refugees sought shelter in nearby factories. On 12 July, the Bosnian
25 Serb Army entered Potocari. At the time the soldiers were coming into
1 Potocari, Mr. Groenewegen heard shells exploding and saw houses catching
2 fire. That day, he and his Dutch colleagues were tasked with keeping the
3 Bosnian Serb Army and the refugees apart. That same day, buses arrived.
4 The first people to go there were those who wanted to get into the buses
5 on their own account. The people who didn't want to get in withdrew into
6 the background and were forced afterwards to get into those buses.
7 For the Muslims who were unwilling to get on the buses, initially
8 there was only shouting and people were being called names, and if they
9 still didn't want to get in, then violence was used by the Serb soldiers.
10 Also, men were selected from the crowd of Muslims and gathered in an
11 empty house by Serb soldiers. When the house was full, the men were
12 taken away in buses. The transportation of the Muslim population
13 continued until the evening and then it stopped.
14 On the next day, 13 July, Mr. Groenewegen had the same duties he
15 had the day before. Men continued to be separated that day. At one
16 point, his attention was drawn to shouting, and he saw a man from the
17 crowd dressed in civilian clothes on the road, who was being handled
18 aggressively by some Serb soldiers. About 10 or 15 minutes after seeing
19 this, Mr. Groenewegen's attention was drawn again to this same man. This
20 time, from about 30 metres away, he saw the man placed up against the
21 wall of a nearby house by Serb soldiers. He saw a Serb soldier shoot the
22 man through the head from a distance of about three metres. The man
23 collapsed after being shot, and the Serb soldiers walked away.
24 Mr. Groenewegen noticed other Serb soldiers look to the area of the
25 shooting after that shot was fired, but they just continued their
2 That finishes my brief summary. I have just a few
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before you continue, Mr. McCloskey, there is a
5 problem of wording. Several times, you used the word "Serb soldiers."
6 I think you should clarify it, that they were soldiers of the Bosnian
7 Serb Army and not of the Serb Army. We had the same problem yesterday as
8 well. You realised that later that day. Are you sure that you mean Serb
9 soldiers or Bosnian Serb soldiers?
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: I believe that's a reflection of the previous
11 statements where the witnesses tend to call them Serb soldiers. That's
12 what it should be, though I also recall that many of the Dutch referred
13 to the soldiers as BSA, which means Bosnian Serb Army. So I will clarify
14 that with the witness. Thank you, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
16 Please carry on.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY:
18 Q. Can we clear up this issue? In my summary, I said "Serb
19 soldiers." Can you clarify for that? How did you refer normally -- that
20 you and the Dutch refer to the soldiers that were there in Potocari? Who
21 were they to you?
22 A. For me, those were the people who came from outside the enclave,
23 and there was no unity in the uniform, they had many camouflage-type
24 uniforms. But we felt that they were Serbian.
25 Q. Did many times the DutchBat refer to them as the BSA?
1 A. Yes, that was often used.
2 Q. And in your mind, what did that mean? What did that stand for in
4 A. For us, "BSA" represented the Bosnian Serb Army.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. All right. And could we go into
6 private session for one short moment?
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
8 [Private session]
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please carry on.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
6 Q. When you were in Potocari on that first day, 12 July, you have
7 described the crowd of Muslims being full of fear. Can you tell the
8 Judges, you know, what you saw that made you come to that conclusion?
9 How did you know that they were full of fear?
10 A. These people were really trying very hard to reach the Potocari
11 compound, and it was clear to us that these people were not at their
12 ease. We could easily say that they were really fearful, full of fear.
13 Q. And you've described the first group trying to get on the buses
14 and another group that wasn't. Can you describe the situation in just a
15 little more detail for the Judges? And first the group that was trying
16 to get on the buses, what did they look like? Can you describe that?
17 A. As from the moment the buses arrived, well, of course, we
18 couldn't hear all the conversations which these people had. But as far
19 as I gathered, these people were given the choice to board the buses
20 themselves, and many of them did it in the first stage.
21 Q. And how did they do it? Was it just -- can you describe the
22 situation? Was it calm and orderly?
23 A. I had the impression these people were really eager to board the
24 bus and they were really eager to leave that place as soon as possible.
25 Q. What about this other group you described? What were they doing,
1 the ones that didn't seem so eager?
2 A. These people were trying to hide and to withdraw to the back of
3 the group, and finally they were all forced to board the bus.
4 Q. Can you describe this force?
5 A. At first, people were only -- were only yelling at them, but then
6 they -- people were being threatened with weapons. And when they didn't
7 move, then they were really forced physically to board the buses and go
8 towards the buses.
9 Q. When you say "forced physically," can you tell us -- give us some
10 kind of an idea what you mean by that?
11 A. Well, it was mainly that people were being grabbed and they were
12 being drawn, and people were being kicked and given, you know, the --
13 they were being hit so that they would move.
14 Q. All right. Now, let's go briefly to the shooting you witnessed.
15 The victim of this shooting, where was this person? Could you
16 tell whether this was a Bosnian Serb, or a Muslim, or someone else?
17 A. Well, as far as I saw, it was a person who was taken from the
18 main group, but I can't tell what his origin was. I can't say that with
20 Q. When you say "the main group," what do you mean?
21 A. The main group of refugees who had gathered there.
22 Q. And can you give us a rough idea of the age of the person, the
23 man that you saw taken from the group?
24 A. I think he might have been in his 30s, early 40s.
25 Q. And the person that shot him, what was that person wearing?
1 A. It was a camouflage dress.
2 Q. All right. And I think the rest of it is laid out in your
3 testimony. So you have, over the years, seen an aerial image of this
4 scene and made markings about where the house was and where the person
5 was shot, and so -- is that correct?
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. And I know it's been a long time, but let's see if we can do that
8 one more time.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: We have a -- number 950 is our number for this
10 photograph. This is an unmarked version, and I would -- and if we could
11 blow that up. Keep going, if we could. Can we go one more? We need the
12 white -- that bright white house -- perfect. Right there, right there,
13 that's fine. And could you blow it up one more time?
14 Can you concentrate on that photo?
15 Could we go back again? Actually, that's okay. If we could put
16 that building in the bottom a bit, a little bit farther in the bottom.
18 Right there is -- do you want us to go back or can you make this
19 photo out?
20 A. I think one step down, it would be somewhat more defined.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: If you could go back one more time, we'll get a
22 little less pixels. One more. It's perfect, but we just need one more
23 zoom. Zoom in a bit more, please. Okay.
24 Q. Is that clear for you? I know this is difficult sometimes. Do
25 you see the area where you saw the man get shot?
1 A. I recognise the photograph well.
2 Q. Can you take that marker and put a dot where you saw the man get
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. Okay. And we see that red mark. And can you put an X roughly
6 where the man -- well, where the man was that shot him?
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. I can't quite make that out as an X, so they look the same to me.
9 So make that a little bigger X, if you could.
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. And a G if you recall about where you were when you saw this.
12 A. [Marks]
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right, I think that will do it. Thank you.
14 I have nothing further, Mr. President, and I would offer this
15 into evidence.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The marked photograph will be received.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P99, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
19 Witness, now the accused, Mr. Tolimir, has the right to
20 cross-examine you.
21 Mr. Tolimir.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Peace be with this institution and everybody following these
24 proceedings. God willing, these proceedings will be finished soon and
1 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:
2 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, I am -- you are not a protected
3 witness. I'll call you by your name. I'm going to read some questions
4 to you, and I'm going to put questions to you. And every time I put a
5 question to you or quote back your testimony to you, or a new question, I
6 will say, Thank you, and then I will ask you to please start answering.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, in this case, especially today, it
8 is necessary to speak very slowly because we have additional
9 interpretation from English -- from B/C/S to Dutch, and therefore you
10 need to pause and to read especially very slowly. Thank you very much.
11 Please carry on.
12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Q. Mr. Groenewegen, how old were you when you joined the Dutch Army?
14 That would be my first question. Thank you.
15 A. I was 17 years old. I was 17 years old.
16 Q. You testified in the Popovic case, and you said that you joined
17 the army in 1994 and that you arrived in Srebrenica as a member of the
18 DutchBat of UNPROFOR. Tell me, where did you serve from January 1994
19 until July 1995? Thank you.
20 A. At first, from January 1994, I served in Assen. And in January
21 1995, we left for Srebrenica.
22 Q. Thank you. Can we then say, for the transcript, that in 1995, in
23 January, you arrived in Srebrenica, that you didn't arrive there in 1994?
24 A. 1994 is not correct.
25 Q. Thank you. Mr. Groenewegen, before you arrived in Bosnia
2 UNPROFOR? And if you did, what was the training about?
3 A. That's correct. It's the standard training for us to be prepared
4 for deployment.
5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Groenewegen. How old do you have to be in the
7 words, when do you qualify to become a member of the army?
8 A. I can tell you about my personal experience. I was one of the
9 last people required to serve in the military, and opted to be a
10 professional -- opted for a career in the military. I was one of the
11 final conscripts.
12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Groenewegen. Are you saying that you were a minor
13 when you joined your battalion and UNPROFOR in January 1995?
14 A. Negative, because I was 18 at the time.
15 Q. When you were recruited or enlisted in the Dutch military, were
16 you a minor then?
17 A. When I received my summons, I was 17.
18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Groenewegen. Just for the record, could you
19 please tell us, were you a minor in 1994, when you joined the DutchBat of
20 the UNPROFOR?
21 A. I was 17 when I registered to join the army, but not when I
22 became part of DutchBat.
23 Q. Thank you. You left the military in 2003; am I right in saying
24 that? And if I am right, could you please tell us why you left the army?
25 Thank you.
1 A. To be specific, that was in 2004. The reason was that 10 years
2 was enough.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think if you raise this question, we should go
6 into private session, Mr. Tolimir.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: And could we have a redaction, please,
8 Mr. President?
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
10 Private session, please.
11 [Private session]
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honour.
8 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Mr. Groenewegen, could you please look at 1D72, which is now on
10 the screen. This is your statement provided 29 September 1986 -- I
11 apologise. 1995. Thank you. Do you see that document on the screen
12 before you?
13 A. I see it.
14 Q. Thank you. Mr. Groenewegen, this statement that we see on the
15 screen does not have the form of a classical statement. I would like to
16 ask you the following: Who was it who provided this statement? Thank
18 A. I can't tell you anything about that.
19 Q. I apologise. My question was wrong, I misspoke. That's why I'm
20 going to repeat it. I meant to ask you: Who took your statement, which
21 does not have the form of a classical statement? In my previous
22 question, I asked you who it was who provided the statement. I meant to
23 ask you who it was you provided the statement to. Thank you.
24 A. The name of that individual is listed at the bottom as the
25 interviewer, and that is Peter Cornelis.
1 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us who that person was
2 affiliated to at that time, which institution that person worked for at
3 the time?
4 A. I can't remember that.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think, for the sake of the record, you should
6 mention -- you should state that the full name of this person is
7 Peter Cornelis Stephanus Staal, and I think the family name is Staal. Is
8 that correct?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, as we know, the witness does
12 understand English. This is also -- I believe the original is in Dutch,
13 as we can -- may be able to tell, because there should be a signature.
14 So I don't know how much detail he's going into it, but it would be a
15 courtesy to the witness. I'm sorry, I may be mistaken on that. So if we
16 find the Dutch, we'll let you know.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
18 Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.
19 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
20 I just wanted to know who the statement was provided to and what
21 was that person's capacity. I just needed to know that in order to
22 understand whether that person, who took the statement, could appreciate
23 the witness's statement fully, whether he was familiar with the situation
24 that the witness was testifying about. Thank you.
25 Q. However, I'm sorry, I did not receive an answer. Could I please
1 be given an answer to my question?
2 A. Could you please repeat the question one more time so I know
3 exactly what you want to know?
4 Q. I want to know, the statement that you provided on the 29th
5 September 1995
6 official who was a member of the police, the military, the judiciary in
8 your statement on the 29th September 1995? Thank you.
9 A. As far as I remember, I was at the barracks,
10 Johan Willem Friso Barracks.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Was the person Mr. Staal?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I remember correctly, it was
13 somebody from the Koninklijke Marechaussee, the military police, the
14 Dutch military police.
15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 Q. Just briefly, that policeman from the Dutch military police, did
17 he inform you that you were providing that statement for the purpose of
18 the Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia
19 used there?
20 A. No reference was made to it at that time. I wasn't told that at
21 the time.
22 Q. Thank you. Could you please also tell us, before you went to
23 Srebrenica, before you were deployed there, did you know anything about
24 Srebrenica, about the ratio of forces in the battle-field, who was
25 involved in combat there? Were you explained what the mandate of the
1 United Nations was in Srebrenica and also what the mandate of your unit
2 was before you were deployed in Srebrenica? Thank you.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: I object to the multifaceted -- that's a very
4 complex-faceted question, which if it can be asked in parts, I think it's
5 fair, but that -- it's impossible to answer a question like that in that
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm not fully in agreement with you,
8 Mr. McCloskey. He asked if this witness knew anything about Srebrenica.
9 It was a question not about the facts, but if he was told about the
10 facts, and what was his knowledge at that time.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, my -- that, of course, is a very
12 big question about perhaps the history of the peoples, and then he got
13 specific in the same question and asked about the UN mandate, which is
14 very specific and potentially very different than the history of
15 Srebrenica, what he knows about it. So if he wants -- the answer, we
16 won't know if it's history that he's learned about or the mandate. We
17 won't know from his answer, unless we try to clarify that. That was my
18 only point. Fair questions. There's a difference, in my view, between
19 the mandate that his forces had and what he knew about Srebrenica before
20 he went.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, that was not the question:
22 "Were you explained what the mandate of the United Nations was in
24 "Were you explained," this was the question for the witness, and
25 I think this is the right of the accused to ask this question.
1 Could you tell us what you were told at that time.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During a training period, we were
3 reasonably informed of the situation and the situation -- the
4 geographical situation, the various parties, and of course we also
5 received the mandate of the United Nations, and we were informed of that.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
7 Please carry on, Mr. Tolimir.
8 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. Mr. Groenewegen, when you testified in the Blagojevic and Jokic
10 case, on page 1015, to the Prosecutor's question about your duties and
11 tasks in Srebrenica between January and July 1995, you answered that you
12 mostly went on patrols. And then on page 1016, when you were asked what
13 the purpose of the patrolling was, your answer was whether the two
14 warring sides were engaged in any conflicts and whether a cease-fire was
15 being observed. Do you remember those two questions, and do you remember
16 your answers to them?
17 A. I remember the questions. I don't exactly remember what I said
18 at the time.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Groenewegen. I just wanted to jog your memory
20 about that trial.
21 And now please answer this: Did you testify -- or did you
22 provide a statement to the Ministry of Defence when the Ministry of
23 Defence carried out an investigation among your fellow soldiers about the
24 events in Srebrenica? Thank you.
25 A. Just a moment. I'm re-reading the question.
1 At the time, we were asked questions by the Ministry of Defence
2 about our stay there.
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Groenewegen.
4 I would like to present a report compiled by the Ministry of
5 Defence. The document number is 1D71. Could the Court please produce
6 document 1D71. I would like to ask the witness whether he was familiar
7 with the report and the findings of the Dutch government with regard to
8 the events in Srebrenica?
9 A. I am aware of the document, but I don't know its contents.
10 Q. Thank you. Just for the transcript, do you know that on the 4th
11 of October, 1995, in Assen, this report by the Ministry of Defence was
12 published, it was based on the statements of Dutch soldiers and officers
13 who were part of the mission in Srebrenica? Thank you.
14 A. The fact that it was the 4th of October, 1995, that's quite
15 possible. But the rest, yes, the rest is very clear.
16 Q. Do you agree with the fact -- or, rather, was your statement
17 enclosed or was it taken into account when the Ministry of Defence
18 published this report? Did they take your statement into account when
19 they compiled the report and then published it?
20 A. As I said earlier on, I'm aware of the document. But I've never
21 read it, personally, so I really can't say more about it.
22 Q. Thank you. Just for the transcript, can we then state that
23 you've not had an occasion to familiarise yourself with this document,
24 produced by the Ministry of Defence, as a report about the events that
25 took place in Srebrenica in 1995? Thank you.
1 A. It's not the fact that I didn't have the opportunity, but the
2 fact that I did not want to read it.
3 Q. Thank you. Since you have not read this report, I'm going to
4 quote some of the things from this document which are of some relevance
5 for the cross-examination. As a matter of fact, I'm just going to jog
6 your memory about some things.
7 You said that you --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please repeat the part of the
10 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] On page 10 of the document, in
11 paragraph 2.23, which is also page 10 in English and page 13 in the
12 Serbian, could this please be shown on the screen?
13 Q. A reference is made about the mandate of the UNPROFOR in
14 Srebrenica, and it says as follows, and I quote from paragraph 2.23.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you can pause a little bit and wait
16 for the moment it will appear on the screen. It is helpful for the
17 interpreters and the witness.
18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. If you
19 agree, I will move on with my question. Thank you.
20 Q. I will now read out point 2.23 :
21 "The DutchBat was entrusted with the following tasks based on the
22 above-mentioned agreement on the cease-fire and resolution."
23 In other words, this is part of the agreement between the
24 Government of the Netherlands
25 Under 2.23(a):
1 "To monitor compliance with the ceasefire."
2 "(b) To disarm the BiH."
4 "(c) To support the provisions of humanitarian aid."
5 I should also explain to you, Mr. Groenewegen, that we're only
6 going to be discussing here the mandate as described under (b), in other
7 words, to disarm the BiH, because it is stated here that that was within
8 your mandate. Could you please now answer the question?
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you please repeat the question? It was not
10 recorded because of interpretation problems.
11 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Groenewegen, could you please tell us what measures were
13 taken in Srebrenica in order to disarm BiH members? That will be my
14 question, and of course I expect to give -- I expect you to give us your
15 view, as a private.
16 A. Well, the only thing I can give you is my position as a soldier.
17 During that semester we carried out patrols regularly, and it was only on
18 three or four occasions that we encountered BiH members with weapons or
19 in training. And insofar as we tried to do anything, it was very hard to
20 do anything because there were dangers of minefields. And these people,
21 we couldn't find them. When we attempted to find them, it was very hard
22 to locate them.
23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Groenewegen. Just tell us now, in the course of
24 your patrols and in those missions, how far were you from positions of
25 the BH Army, or members of the BH Army, or the positions of the
1 28th Division that was located in Srebrenica and its surroundings? Thank
3 A. I suppose you mean the people we saw carrying weapons around
5 Q. Well, let me clarify. Did you have to send the report on where
6 units of the BH Army were deployed in the territory that you were keeping
7 under control and whether they were complying with the agreement on the
8 cease-fire? Thank you.
9 A. In my personal experience, no.
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Groenewegen. Can you please just tell us, did you
11 personally take part in the patrols, and were there any instances where
12 your patrol, of which you were a member, actually disarmed a member of
13 the BH Army? Thank you.
14 A. I was never present during patrols where people were being
16 Q. Thank you. Tell us, please, since you were monitoring the
17 implementation of the cease-fire and disarming, did you ever get
18 information from your colleagues or from those who assigned you to tasks
19 that members of the BH Army left or went out of the demilitarised zone,
20 and that from outside the demilitarised zone they would actually take
21 certain actions?
22 A. During the six months we stayed there, I was never being told
23 anything of the sort. I only heard such things after I had returned.
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Groenewegen. If you allow me, I would like to
25 read a statement by your commander, the DutchBat Battalion,
1 Thomas Karremans, who assigned tasks to all of you. I will quote his
2 words in Blagojevic/Jokic case on page 11165 [as interpreted] of the
3 transcript. Thank you.
4 Thomas Karremans, in his testimony in the Blagojevic/Jokic case,
5 on page 1165 of the transcript, stated the following, I quote:
6 "From time to time, Muslim fighters would leave the enclave and
7 return on the same night. Sometimes we could hear shooting outside the
8 enclave, and usually a day or two later we would be informed by the other
9 side that something had happened, that there had been an incident."
10 My question is this: Did you ever take part in any action in
11 order to try to prevent BH Army members to leave the demilitarised zone
12 and then to launch attacks from outside the zone against the Serb
13 civilian population and Serb soldiers around Srebrenica? Thank you.
14 A. I never took part in such actions.
15 Q. Thank you. And do you know whether any such actions were ever
16 taken? Thank you.
17 A. I can't say anything about that.
18 Q. Thank you. Did the soldiers in your unit or your complement ever
19 receive any information from your superior command, or from the
20 civilians, or from the other side, on Muslim Army activities outside the
21 safe area of Srebrenica?
22 A. I have heard things said about it, but on very rare occasions.
23 But we never got any official information from our official sources.
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Groenewegen. Do you remember, by any chance, why
25 a conflict erupted on the eve of the fall of Srebrenica at the
1 check-point in the Zeleni Jadar area, and was that close to the
2 observation post where you served? Thank you.
3 A. I can't say anything about that because I don't know the name
4 Zeleni Jadar. It doesn't say anything to me.
5 Q. Thank you. And do you know that the BH Army in Srebrenica, as
6 early as January 1995, forbade members of the DutchBat to patrol in the
7 area known under the name of --
8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure of the name. Could
9 the accused please repeat it? Interpreter's note: Bandera Triangle.
10 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
11 Q. In the area known as the Bandera Triangle. Thank you. The name
12 is Bandera Triangle, and I asked the witness whether he knew that the
13 Muslims had forbidden the DutchBat to patrol that area called or known
14 under the name of Bandera Triangle. Thank you.
15 A. If that was truly the case, if it was forbidden, I was never
16 informed of that.
17 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could the witness now
18 be shown document 1D71, page 15, 15, paragraph 2.40. Thank you.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think the right page number is 14 instead of
20 15, but we have paragraph 2.40 on the screen.
21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. All that
22 matters is that we actually have that very paragraph before us.
23 Q. And here it says -- and I would like to read out,
24 Mr. Groenewegen, a portion of this paragraph to remind you of the events.
25 Thank you.
1 "The BH Army, on the 21st of January, announced restrictions in
2 the UN's freedom of movement in what is known as the Bandera Triangle
3 after the BSA had taken up positions directly on the enclave boundary.
4 The battalion," and here they're referring to your battalion, "decided to
5 ignore the restrictions and entered the prohibited area with three
6 patrols on the 27th of January.
7 "This resulted in a response from the BH Army, who held
8 approximately 100 DutchBat personnel hostage between 27 and 31st January.
9 After this incident, the battalion no longer patrolled in the Bandera
11 My question for you is this, Mr. Groenewegen: Do you know
12 anything about this document and this event? Do you have any personal
13 knowledge of this event because you were in Srebrenica at the time?
14 Thank you.
15 A. It is true I was in Srebrenica at the time, but I only heard that
16 colleagues were taken hostage. I heard about that. But Bandera
17 Triangle, I don't really know, and I wasn't present, myself, at the time.
18 Q. Thank you. Then we will not dwell on this anymore, since you
19 have no personal knowledge.
20 Could you now tell us something else? On several occasions, you
21 mentioned the theft of UN equipment during your stay in Srebrenica in
22 1995. Could you now please describe how this came about, and what
23 measures did you then take once you established that some equipment had
24 been stolen? Thank you.
25 A. For the moment, I only remember one case where there was theft.
1 It was a theft of petrol from OP Mike.
2 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us anything about that incident, and
3 were Dutch soldiers involved in that theft or was the petrol actually
4 taken by force? Thank you.
5 A. It was during a period when one of my colleagues was standing
6 watch, and several jerry cans of petrol were taken away. People broke
7 into the place and took the jerry cans away.
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Groenewegen. Could you now tell me this: In the
9 Popovic case, on page 2999 of the transcript, in response to Defence
10 counsel's question, you said that the local people in Srebrenica pointed
11 out that the local mafia headquarters was in Pale. Could you please
12 confirm that here, and can you clarify that, because Pale is far away
13 from Srebrenica, or was there some other Pale that they were actually
14 referring to? Thank you.
15 A. Well, first, I don't remember ever saying that there was a
16 headquarters -- mafia headquarters in Pale. I don't remember saying
18 Q. Thank you. But that is what is stated in transcript on page 2999
19 in the Popovic case. But thank you. Since you can't recall this, there
20 is no need to dwell on it. Let's not waste any time.
21 So my next question --
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: It does not say that on that page, so I think
23 it's unfair of him to be communicating this to the witness. It was in a
24 question from one of the accused -- Defence lawyers about Pale, so I
25 don't know what the purpose of that little misstatement was.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir told us he doesn't want to dwell on
2 this issue any longer. He can carry on. We have your intervention on
3 the record.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Well, in response to what the
5 Prosecutor said, I said in response to the question of one of the Defence
6 counsel, you confirmed that the people of Srebrenica actually pointed out
7 that the staff of the local mafia was in Pale, and I was just asking the
8 witness if he can describe what Pale that is a reference to, because Pale
9 is quite far from Srebrenica, and whether there was another place that
10 they also called Pale. Thank you.
11 Now I will move on to my next question.
12 Q. You mentioned here specifically the theft of petrol in
13 jerry cans. How did the DutchBat safe-guard its equipment in order to
14 prevent it from being stolen? Thank you.
15 A. DutchBat has several locations, so I can only say what happened
16 at OP Mike, where the theft took place.
17 Q. Thank you. What I'm concerned with is only what measures were
18 taken, so I will move on to another set of questions if you feel that
19 there is no need for you to describe this theft.
20 Can you tell us, please, when was it that the Muslims began
21 arriving in Potocari? And if you feel that you want to describe the
22 previous question -- that you want to answer it, you can also include it
23 in the answer to this question. Thank you.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection to the form of the question. That is
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This was really a set of different questions.
2 Please break that up and put one question after the other. What is now
3 your concrete question?
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you. I only had one
6 Q. Could the witness confirm for us when it was that Muslim
7 civilians began to arrive in the Potocari base in 1995? And then I just
8 added to that that if the witness feels he wants to answer the previous
9 question, he can. Thank you.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's not necessary to repeat the whole part. I
11 asked you to break up this whole part and you put one question to the
12 witness, and there you should stop.
13 Witness, you were asked to confirm when it was that Muslim
14 civilians began to arrive at the Potocari base in 1995. Can you answer
15 that question?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In earlier declarations, if I
17 remember correctly, I quoted the date of July 10th.
18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Q. Can you tell us, did these Muslim civilians arrive from their
20 villages in the area to Potocari on UN vehicles, whether they picked them
21 up en route, or whether they actually transported them there? Thank you.
22 A. Well, at first people reached us on foot. They arrived from the
23 city of Srebrenica. And on one occasion, I saw a UN truck which was full
24 of refugees.
25 Q. Thank you. Did those first refugees who fled from Srebrenica and
1 came to Potocari arrive on UN trucks? Thank you.
2 A. No. Again, the first people I saw arriving in Potocari all came
3 on foot.
4 Q. Thank you. You said a few moments ago also -- in your reply, you
5 said that they were also brought there on UN trucks. Is that correct or
6 was the interpretation that I received incorrect?
7 A. No. To be clear, a lot of people came in the direction of
8 Potocari. I saw all of them on foot. And later on that day, I saw one
9 truck that was filled with refugees.
10 [Technical difficulties]
11 THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I seem to have a
12 computer crash. It will take a moment.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, we see it not recording any longer so that
14 we must break and try to find out the reason for that.
15 THE COURT REPORTER: Would it be a good time to take the morning
16 recess? I don't know how long it's going to take me.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We are, Mr. Tolimir, approaching the time for the
18 first break. I think this is a convenient moment to resolve the
19 technical problems. We adjourn now and will resume five minutes before
21 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, I see you're on your feet.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, excuse me.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I hope everything is working now with the record.
1 Okay, very good.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I just learned from Mr. Gajic that perhaps the
3 plan is to continue with this witness for the rest of the day. If that's
4 the case, we have a very sensitive witness waiting, and it would be nice
5 if we could get an idea if that is the case.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, could you give us some information
7 about your indication?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
9 I need a whole day for this witness, but I will use as much time
10 as you give me.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You're saying you need the whole day. This is
12 your right in cross-examination. But we don't want to find us in the
13 position that all of a sudden the cross-examination has finished and
14 there is still time available. But you are of the opinion that this will
15 not happen?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that in the next two or
17 three hours, I will finish, or maybe an hour before. If the Prosecutor
18 needs that one hour at the end of the day, I will hurry up and finish
19 within two hours. Thank you.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Does that help you, Mr. McCloskey?
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: We will be prepared, in any event. We have an
22 investigator that can fill a gap, if there is a gap. This sensitive
23 witness, I think, given what the general said, we would like to send him
24 home, and we'll keep the investigator as the gap-filler potentially.
25 We've informed the Defence that we have an investigator for just these
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That sounds very practical. At a later stage of
3 our trial, and I hope we can clarify that quite soon, we will have more
4 sitting days per week so that these problems are not so complicated.
5 Thank you very much.
6 Please carry on with your questioning, Mr. Tolimir.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Q. Mr. Groenewegen, you have just told us that you saw a UN truck
9 full of refugees. Could you please tell us what day was that when you
10 saw that truck? Thank you.
11 A. That must have been on 10 July.
12 Q. Thank you. Was the Army of Republika Srpska deployed in Potocari
13 at that time? Thank you.
14 A. I hadn't seen them yet at that moment.
15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could the witness
16 please be shown 1D72, page 2 in English, the last paragraph, and page 3
17 in the Serbian, second paragraph. Thank you.
18 Page 2, last paragraph, please look at it. Thank you.
19 Q. I am going to read for you:
20 "On the 10th of July, 1995, around 1600 hours,
21 Sergeant Van Schaik ordered us to leave the shelter. We were told to
22 line up together with the infantry in order to escort the refugees who
23 had started arriving at the base."
24 Can we now turn to the following page in the English version,
1 "I'm going to draw a green line to show where we stood. When I
2 say 'refugees,' I mean Muslim refugees. At that moment, there were no
3 BSA members at the compound in Potocari.
4 "On that same day, from the direction of Bravo Company, four-ton
5 UN trucks arrived. The trucks were packed with refugees, men, women, and
6 children. In the course of one day, the compound filled up with
7 refugees. According to my estimate, there were about 2.000 people there.
8 Bravo Company was stationed in Srebrenica.
9 "At one point, we could no longer cope with such an influx of
10 refugees, and we had to hold the people back, to keep them off the
11 compound. We allowed sick people to enter the base so that they could be
12 attended to. We were up and about nearly the whole night."
13 Thank you. This was a quote from your statement. I want you to
14 say whether you remember that you stated that in your statement. Thank
16 A. I remember well that I stated that, yes.
17 Q. Thank you. On the 10th of July, did more refugees come to the
18 compound where you were stationed? Did your superiors order you to
19 receive them and accept them in the way you describe herein? Thank you.
20 A. As it was described is the most accurate version of the course of
22 Q. Thank you. I will leave it at that.
23 Can we now talk about the Blagojevic/Jokic transcript page 1020.
24 This is where you describe your duties and responsibility with regard to
25 the refugees. And on line 7 and 8, you answer, and I quote:
1 "... to make sure that people do not get lost and not to take the
2 roads that were not intended for their use."
3 My question is this: What roads were intended for them and what
4 roads were banned for them? Can you answer that, please?
5 A. There were no specifically prohibited roads, but from my
6 perception, those in charge wanted to know where everybody was. That's
7 why it was directed somewhat.
8 Q. Thank you. With regard to your responsibilities at the base, and
9 we're talking about the night between 11th and 12th on, page 1021, line
10 16 of the same transcript, you said, and I quote:
11 "... to help people who sought our assistance."
12 How did you assist them? What did the assistance consist of?
13 Thank you.
14 A. At first, we had to determine whether people truly needed medical
15 assistance or urgently needed other types of assistance, and that way we
16 were able to triage the people according to urgency.
17 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us, the Muslim civilians who
18 gathered in Potocari, were they there in order to be transported to
20 Thank you.
21 A. I know nothing about that.
22 Q. Thank you. In the Blagojevic and Jokic case, when you talked
23 about the evacuation on page 1025, you say the following, and I quote:
24 "The first ones who left were those who wanted to get on the
25 buses of their own will. Those who did not want to get on the buses
1 withdrew, and they were then forced to get on the buses."
2 Thank you, end of quote. My question is this: Why did you state
3 that for the first time in the Blagojevic/Jokic case, despite the fact
4 that you had had plenty of opportunities to talk about that even earlier,
5 you had plenty of opportunities to say that some people had been forced
6 to get on the buses? Thank you. To be very specific, you never made it
7 part of your statements. You mentioned that for the first time in the
8 Blagojevic/Jokic case and never before. Thank you.
9 A. There are most likely other facts that were not mentioned, so
10 please excuse me.
11 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us, did you personally, as a
12 member of the Dutch Battalion in Potocari, help with the evacuations of
13 those who had gathered in Potocari? Was that your official role or did
14 you do it of your own accord?
15 A. No, our superiors told us to do that.
16 Q. Thank you. My next question: Did you ever hear from anybody,
17 through an interpreter or personally, that some of the Muslims who had
18 gathered in Potocari requested to stay in Srebrenica? Thank you.
19 A. Not as far as I know.
20 Q. Thank you. In the transcript, page 1026, the same case,
21 Blagojevic and the other, you say on page 1026, lines 13 and 15, and I
23 "We talked to some of the people among the crowd, and they were
24 convinced that they would be better off," and a reference here is to the
25 Muslims, "to stay behind and to fight before they left voluntarily."
1 My question is this: Were those your personal internal
2 discussions or were those discussions conducted officially on the part of
3 the representatives of the Dutch Battalion and the United Nations, whom
4 you represented in Srebrenica?
5 A. No, such cases concerned personal discussions.
6 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us the day when such
7 discussions were conducted? Was it on the 10th, the 11th, the 12th?
8 Approximately, what day was that when you talked about that?
9 A. I can't remember exactly.
10 Q. Thank you. Did such discussion go on for all the three days or
11 just one of the days? Could you give us some indication, in light of the
12 fact that you spoke about that at the previous trial in which you
13 testified? Thank you.
14 A. It would probably have been one of those days.
15 Q. Thank you. Did your battalion command and you, yourself, know at
16 the time that on the 11th, in the evening, the Muslims had already
17 started breaking through towards Tuzla
18 others who didn't want to join them to make their way towards the
19 UNPROFOR compound? Were you aware of that? Thank you.
20 A. No. We had the impression that things were happening, but that
21 was the only thing.
22 Q. Thank you. The Prosecutor showed us a clip depicting your
23 commander and representatives of the Muslims, who met on the 11th, in the
24 evening, and the Muslims stated they were not in a position to inform
25 their commanders that Mladic had proclaimed a cease-fire and that he
1 invited them to come for talks on the following day, on the 12th. Did
2 you know any of that? Were you aware of any of that?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Thank you. Were you aware of the negotiations in Bratunac which
5 involved your commander, General Mladic, and Muslim representatives,
6 thank you, on the 11th, in the evening, that actually it was your
7 commander who had requested to meet with General Mladic? Thank you.
8 A. There again, I wasn't aware of that at that point in time.
9 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us, for the transcript, when
10 did you learn that your commander had requested to meet with
11 General Mladic and to attend any negotiations between civilian
12 representatives and the representatives of the Army of Republika Srpska?
13 Thank you.
14 A. Well, for me, I became aware of it much later, after the
15 broadcast of the Dutch Battery -- sorry, after the deployment of the
16 Dutch Battery
17 THE INTERPRETER: Correction by the interpreter.
18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Thank you. On the 10th, when you saw the trucks that had arrived
20 in Potocari, did you perhaps think that the Army of Republika Srpska was
21 aware of the huge numbers of the civilians who had gathered in Potocari,
22 and were you afraid that they might become a target for their artillery?
23 Thank you.
24 A. Yes, I certainly had that thought.
25 Q. In keeping with that, did you receive a task, an order from your
1 superiors, from your commanders, from those who were in command?
2 A. As far as I reply, the only thing I remember is that we, as
3 Blue Helmets, had to remain amongst the population so that we could be
4 seen as being present.
5 Q. Thank you. Was that your personal choice, or your personal
6 opinion, or wish, or estimate, or was that, rather, an order coming from
7 your commander?
8 A. It was a combination of everything you just quoted.
9 Q. Thank you. And now I'm going to show you something that you will
10 certainly remember.
11 In the Popovic case, on page 2967 of the transcript, you
12 testified that your objective was to prevent conflicts between the two
13 groups, the civilians, on the one side, and the RSK Army [as interpreted]
14 on the other side. We're talking about the time when the
15 RSK [as interpreted] arrived in Potocari. Could you please tell us when
16 that was? When was the first time you noticed the presence of the Army
17 of Republika Srpska in Potocari? Thank you.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: We just have just a slight correction. We need
20 to make sure we've got the VRS. The RSK is the Republika Srpska Krajina,
21 and they're not involved in this. We just need to get that translation
22 correct. Thank you. I'm sure that wasn't in the question.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I see your agreement, Mr. Tolimir.
24 Could it be perhaps helpful to have this portion of the testimony
25 in Popovic on the screen to avoid any conflict about interpretation?
1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I accept
2 this well-meant suggestion. I can't see the English -- I can't read the
3 English transcript, and there's no Serbian transcript, so I have not
4 checked that either. Thank you.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we have page 2967 on the screen?
6 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, do you have the 65 ter number of
8 that document? No, you don't have. Okay. Then just carry on, but be
9 always careful with the correct quotation.
10 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'm just going to ask
11 the witness whether he remembers that in that case he testified that it
12 was their task to separate the civilians from the members of the Army of
13 Republika Srpska when the troops of the Army of Republika Srpska arrived
14 in Potocari.
15 Q. Do you remember that you stated that in the Popovic case? And
16 that's the transcript that I was referring to.
17 A. Yes, I do remember that --
18 Q. Thank you. In any case, we have established that I didn't say
19 anything that is not in the transcript. Thank you very much.
20 And now I'll move on to another group of questions referring to
21 the witness's statement, the one that he used here and confirmed that
22 it's the same thing that he had previously stated in the Popovic case.
23 Mr. Groenewegen, you have stated before this Trial Chamber and
24 you mentioned a killing in your statement, the killing of a soldier by a
25 house which you marked in a map that was shown to you by the OTP. Do you
1 remember that?
2 A. I do remember that, but I'm not sure your question was put quite
4 Q. Thank you. In your statement and in the transcript, we read
5 about the killing of a soldier by a house where he was interviewed.
6 Would that set the record straight? Is my question now more precise, is
7 it correct?
8 A. In as far as I stated that, it's not the killing of a soldier.
9 It's the killing of a civilian.
10 Q. Thank you. I accept your interpretation. Therefore, you're
11 saying that he was a civilian. I suppose that you say that because he
12 wore civilian clothes. But judging by his age, I suppose that he could
13 have been a militarily able-bodied person. When you saw him, would that
14 have been your opinion as well, just based on looking at him, his
15 appearance and his age? Would you say that he was a militarily
16 able-bodied man?
17 A. I don't think I am the one who has to judge on that, because
18 anybody of that age could have been a military, for that matter.
19 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, was there anyone else with you when
20 you eye-witnessed this event ?
21 A. No, there was no one else from DutchBat next to me at that point
22 in time.
23 Q. Thank you. On this transcript, you said a little earlier that
24 one of your assignments was to keep the civilians and the
25 Republika Srpska Army soldiers separate, and then you said that you
1 witnessed the killing of a civilian. Since it was your mandate to do
2 what you described, can you tell us whether you have ever reported this
3 incident, and to whom, and when?
4 A. When you're referring to the incident, are you speaking of a
5 report I should have made of this murder?
6 Q. That's correct. I was asking you about when it was that you
7 reported this killing to your superior command because it was your
8 mandate to keep the civilians separate from the soldiers. Thank you.
9 A. That evening, I reported for the first time on that incident, and
10 that has been noted in the official document.
11 Q. Thank you. So there is an official document in respect of that.
12 Now, in the Blagojevic case, on page 1036, lines 10 through 13,
13 the Blagojevic/Jokic case, in response to the Prosecutor's question, and
14 I quote his question:
15 "Did you at any time have occasion to report what you had seen?"
16 In reply to that, you said, I quote:
17 "No, not on that same day."
18 And then when you were asked when, on line 15, you said :
19 "On the next morning."
20 So which of the two is correct, what you've stated today or what
21 you stated in the Blagojevic/Jokic case? Thank you.
22 A. Thank you to have freshened my memory. It is true that I only
23 reported the next morning.
24 Q. Thank you. Was there any reason for you to report that as late
25 as the next morning because the incident involved a murder? Thank you.
1 A. That is right. At that time, we were rather busy because there
2 were so many refugees around us, and for that reason I did not think of
3 reporting immediately, and that is why I only reported the next morning.
4 Q. Thank you. Can you then tell us now whether any measures had
5 been taken by the DutchBat organs to whom you reported that in your
6 official capacity? Thank you.
7 A. I'm not certain I understood your question correctly.
8 Q. I asked just a moment ago the following: Did your commander, or
9 the competent officer to whom you reported the incident, take any
10 measures regarding that incident? Did he inform the other party, the
11 other side? Did he ask for any report as to what had happened? Thank
12 you. Was there any measure taken? Thank you.
13 A. Apart from the fact that a report was made of -- minutes were
14 taken of my report, I don't know whether any action was taken.
15 Q. Thank you. The reason I ask this is that those individuals who
16 committed that criminal act were -- they could have abused their weapons,
17 their position, their being in the army, so if it had been reported, then
18 their superior officers could have taken appropriate measures. Thank
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: I object to --
21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
22 Q. So then please tell me --
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- statements of reasons. That's not necessary.
24 I would ask that he be required to ask questions.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That's correct. You must not give a reason for a
1 question. Carry on.
2 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Well, I have said this, and
3 Mr. McCloskey actually interrupted me when I was framing my next
5 Q. What would the DutchBat -- or the unit that was there, what would
6 they do on such an occasion if a DutchBat member committed that kind of
7 criminal act? That was the gist and the drift of my question. Thank
9 A. I can't say anything about that. This is not part of the facts.
10 Q. Thank you. I was just asking you about standard practice. But
11 now let me ask you this: Did you have occasion to witness any instances
12 of suicide during your mission in Srebrenica? Thank you.
13 A. Only the consequences of -- only the consequences of suicide.
14 Q. Was that on those critical days or did that occur earlier?
15 A. I can't really say when it happened. I remember I observed it.
16 Q. Thank you. I cannot dwell on this any further because you can't
17 remember the event, but let's move on to the next question.
18 Was it your task to make a list of able-bodied men who arrived at
19 the compound in the period between the 10th and the 12th, able-bodied men
20 who arrived with a group of civilians?
21 A. No, that was never one of my tasks.
22 Q. Thank you. Do you know anything about that kind of task having
23 been assigned to anyone in the compound?
24 A. No.
25 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could the witness now
1 please be shown document 1D1, debriefing of the Ministry of Defence of
2 the Netherlands
3 page -- I apologise, I misspoke. The document is document 1D71, page 56,
5 Can we please see paragraphs 15 and 16 of this document, or,
6 rather, 5.15 and 5.16. Thank you. I have it before me on the screen.
7 Q. It says here:
8 "Three refugees spoke for the others in the command. On the 13th
9 of July, at the request of the battalion command, they drew up a list of
10 239 men of fighting age present on the compound, with the intention of
11 submitting these later to the ICRS [as interpreted]. The battalion
12 command hoped that the ICRS [as interpreted] would then be able to
13 monitor these people and, if possible, to offer them some protection. At
14 least 60 people refused to be registered. An attempt to make a similar
15 list of refugees outside the compound failed, as both the refugee
16 representatives and the interpreters were threatened (verbally)."
17 In paragraph 6.25, only mention is made of that list being
18 forwarded to the North-East Sector in The Hague by the DutchBat Command
19 in Potocari. And it is also noted that the last refugees left the base
20 on the 13th of July. Thank you.
21 Has this helped jog your memory that there were attempts to
22 compile such a list on the compound or around it by members of the
23 civilian authorities or the Muslim authorities, and that your command had
24 a problem with that because the people who had sought refuge on the
25 compound actually opposed that? Thank you.
1 A. As far as I know, I was never informed of the existence of such a
2 list of persons. The only thing I can say is that the last persons left
3 on the 13th of July.
4 Q. Thank you. Did you see any representatives -- civilian
5 representatives in your compound? Thank you.
6 A. No, I wouldn't have recognised them as such.
7 Q. Thank you. In the debriefing of the Dutch Ministry of Defence,
8 it says that refugees threatened soldiers and that 60 of them refused to
9 be registered. Can you comment on that? What kind of threats were
10 these, threats by Muslims to each other and also to the soldiers who
11 tried to compile this list, thank you, in view of the fact that such a
12 list was submitted by your commander to the superiors? Thank you.
13 A. No, I admit I don't remember any of this.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I think it was not a correct
15 quotation. In the report, it's only -- there's only written:
16 "... as both the refugee representatives and the interpreters
17 were threatened."
18 There's nothing about who threatened them. You, in your
19 question, you had a formulation that refugees threatened them. There's
20 nothing in this report. I just wanted to state that for the sake of the
22 Please carry on.
23 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
24 Q. Witness, do you know why interpreters had to get involved, in
25 view of the fact that Muslim refugees and members of the commissions
1 spoke the same language? Thank you.
2 A. I can't really give an opinion on that.
3 Q. Can you tell us, then, whether it is correct, as stated here in
4 the debriefing, that the battalion command had actually submitted this
5 report, this list, to the command at the Hague?
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. He doesn't know anything about this.
7 I think he said this four or five times, at least. So this fishing
8 expedition, while there's other witnesses, is really a waste of time.
9 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.
10 This witness confirmed that he was interviewed by the Ministry of
11 Defence in the Netherlands
12 those statements, and I only wanted to know whether the witness knew
13 anything about this. And, Mr. President, if I stepped outside of the
14 boundaries or the scope of the examination-in-chief, I apologise. Thank
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, it was very clear that the witness
17 couldn't give any answer and any opinion on that, so please carry on and
18 not dwell on this any longer.
19 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Q. Witness, can you answer one question that I will put to you in
21 relation to document 1D72? That is your statement.
22 I would like the witness to be shown the penultimate page of that
23 document, where you state, and I will quote a portion of your
24 statement -- we will have it before us in a few moments. That's the
25 penultimate page, the one before last.
1 I quote:
2 "From that day onwards, on the 12th of July, there was no more --
3 there were no more threats to the Dutch Battalion -- there was no longer
4 any threat to DutchBat, and we could resume our normal duties at the
5 compound and get our breath back."
6 And now for my question. Can you tell us, please, what those
7 normal duties at the compound were and why you could finally sigh a
8 breath of relief?
9 A. Our normal activities were to -- were normal activities, but I
10 can't really give details because I don't remember exactly what we did
11 that day; probably make a list of the things we had, check where various
12 people were, and we had to also clear a number of things out. And the
13 fact that we got back -- our breath back, it means also that there were a
14 number of things we needed to tell each other.
15 Q. Thank you. Since you cannot comment on that any further, I will
16 move on to the next group of questions.
17 Could the witness now please be shown document 1D47. These are
18 proofing notes. 1D74. I apologise, I misspoke. So could we now please
19 show the witness 1D74, briefing notes for this witness compiled on the
20 19th of October, 2006.
21 I am not going to mention here the statements that you made for
22 the press. I'm not really interested in that. I only have this
23 question: The journalists who interviewed you, did they fairly report
24 the information that you provided them, because the Prosecutor said that
25 there were some errors in the report of what you had said to the
1 reporters when your words were published in the press? Thank you.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could he point out where the Prosecutor said
4 there were errors? I don't recall that. I thought it was the witness
5 that said there were errors, but I could be wrong.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I wonder as well where this portion you're
7 referring to --
8 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] I accept that. If Mr. McCloskey
9 states that the witness actually said that, then the witness can probably
10 tell us about it, because this was in his conversation with the
12 Q. So can the witness then tell us whether there were numerous
13 errors in the press reports when his words were reported? Thank you.
14 A. Yes, some words were, indeed, distorted. And according to the
15 press, things were said that I personally never said.
16 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you. This document, 1D74,
17 could we please have it on the screens, because I don't want the
18 impression to be left here that I'm trying to conceal anything. Well,
19 actually, we already have the document before us.
20 Q. And in the document, we can read the following on the first page:
21 "Before I step on a grass field, I think about it for a moment."
22 And then it follows Mr. Groenewegen stated that the reporter got
23 many of the details wrong or mixed up. In particular, he said that many
24 of the things that were reported in the press, he had heard from Muslims,
25 that he did not actually see them personally. He said that he had stated
1 to the journalists that for the first group of Serb soldiers who arrived
2 in the enclave, to him they appeared to be high on something, and that he
3 never said that they were stiff with cocaine, as reported in the article.
4 My question for the witness: Does it seem to you, because you
5 had occasion to be misquoted by the journalists, that at times
6 journalists were actually eager to report something even when it is
7 misquoted, but very often at the expense of the Serbs, in this case,
8 where you were saying something about Serb soldiers?
9 A. As for the reason why the press distorts things in an interview,
10 I couldn't tell you that.
11 Q. Thank you. Then just answer the following question, please.
12 Before you stated this for the press, did you have to obtain approval
13 from someone in the army, some command of the Dutch Army that was your
14 superior command, because at the time you were a private? Thank you.
15 A. I never received a press ban, so I never felt inhibited about
16 saying anything about that.
17 Q. Thank you. What period does this statement apply to, as was
18 conveyed by the journalists in your case here?
19 A. This concerns the period from approximately 10 July through
20 13 July.
21 Q. Thank you. Is it customary for soldiers to use narcotics, drugs,
22 and other such things in the Serbian Army and your army as well? Thank
24 A. In the Dutch Army, definitely not. As for the other case, I
25 wouldn't know anything about that.
1 Q. Thank you. Was there another reason why the journalists
2 portrayed the matter as they did? Thank you.
3 A. Well, I couldn't say anything about that.
4 Q. Could you please answer another question, and that question does
5 not concern that particular subject. Did members of your unit, the unit
6 that you belonged to in Srebrenica, on the strength of the United Nations
7 Protection Forces, did they use weapons in any case throughout the
8 duration of your mandate in Srebrenica?
9 A. When you are referring to the use of weapons, do you mean
10 actually firing?
11 Q. Well, I suppose that weapons are only used for the purposes that
12 they are intended for. Thank you.
13 A. Well, simply bearing weapons will have an effect, so to assume
14 that a weapon is used only for shooting is somewhat premature.
15 Q. Thank you. Did you use live ammo when you carried out your
16 duties? Did you have any ammo? What kind of ammo did you have?
17 A. We -- or, rather, I personally carried a weapon, calibre 7.62.
18 Q. Did anybody in the unit, as far as you know, get to open fire
19 while on duty, while performing their tasks?
20 A. Well, during a patrol we were shot at on one occasion, and we
21 fired back in various ways.
22 Q. Thank you. Could you please give us some details of that event?
23 Who opened fire and from what side? Was that from the side of the Army
24 of Republika Srpska or from the side of the BiH Army? Thank you.
25 A. No, we were clearly shot at by positions outside the enclave, so
1 it must have been from the Serbs.
2 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us something about the killing of an
3 UNPROFOR soldier in the safe zone of Srebrenica during those events,
4 immediately prior to those events, and immediately after those events?
5 Thank you.
6 A. No, I can't say anything, other than what may have been set forth
7 in possible documents, because I wasn't present there.
8 Q. Thank you. Did you hear that an UNPROFOR member had been killed
9 on duty? Did you hear it either from your superiors or from your peers?
10 Thank you.
11 A. Yes, that's the case.
12 Q. Can you tell us what you heard? Can you tell us, according to
13 what you heard, when had that happened and how?
14 A. Well, all we heard was that a colleague had been injured, and the
15 exact details were disclosed only later on.
16 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what things were done subsequently
17 in respect of the killing of that soldier? What details were disclosed
18 only later on?
19 A. Well, at first we didn't know who it was, and later on data such
20 as who were they and where did it happen came.
21 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether that case was ever investigated
22 by the Dutch Ministry of Defence? Thank you.
23 A. Well, I'm not going to say anything about that. I can assume
24 that an investigation took place on that.
25 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us, are you not able to answer
1 this question because of the nature of your former job or because of some
2 other secret involved in that? Is that a confidential matter?
3 A. Well, not immediately.
4 Q. I'm afraid I did not understand your answer properly. Could you
5 please be more specific and tell us why you can't answer my question?
6 A. Well, you're asking me about details of which I was not aware at
7 the time.
8 Q. Thank you. We can read that in the debriefing, and obviously
9 we're going to clarify the matter with those who were better informed.
10 That's why I will no longer dwell upon that with you and I'll move on to
11 another group of questions.
12 Could you please tell me where you stored the weapons that were
13 seized from the Muslims once Srebrenica was proclaimed a safe area? Was
14 it part of your mandate to safe-guard those weapons and prevent those
15 from whom they had been taken to get hold of them again? Thank you.
16 A. Well, all I can say about that is that I was aware that there was
17 a storage area in the city of Srebrenica
18 supposed to be stored.
19 Q. Thank you. Did the DutchBat secure the depot or was it the BiH
20 Army that secured the depot? Thank you.
21 A. No, that was DutchBat.
22 Q. Thank you. Did you meet anybody in your battalion who was on
23 guard detail at that point? Do you know anything about that? Did
24 anybody you personally know provide guard service there?
25 A. No. The OP was responsible for that part of my enclave, and we
1 were hardly there.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: OP Bravo Company.
3 Bravo Company was responsible.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Q. In the course of your mandate, in the course of your tour of
6 duty, were you ever in the vicinity of that place? Did you ever see the
7 place where the weapons were stored, and can you tell us, if you know,
8 how the place was secured?
9 A. No, I was never aware of that location.
10 Q. Thank you. When you first arrived, did your command tell you
11 that weapons were confiscated from the Muslims, that the Muslims kept on
12 insisting that the weapons be returned to them, but that the weapons were
13 safeguarded by the UNPROFOR because it was part of the UNPROFOR mandate?
14 Thank you.
15 A. At the time, all I was told was that there was such a location,
16 but, again, I don't know where it was.
17 Q. Thank you. Did you have any idea as to what weapons were stored
18 in that location? Thank you.
19 A. No. If any information was given on that, it was the calibres of
20 the weapons and self-made weapons.
21 Q. Thank you. Were those weapons stored in the Potocari compound
22 once the Muslims left Srebrenica?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. Thank you. The Prosecution showed us a clip in which
25 Mr. Karremans, on the 11th, informed General Mladic that he had handed
1 over 300 rifles to Muslims. Were you aware of that or were any of the
2 DutchBat soldiers aware of that?
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we have a reference to the transcript on
4 that, if he's going to be making specifics references to it? There is a
5 transcript of all of those clips.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you. Well, you wanted me to
8 be as brief as possible. That's why I've speeded up. I didn't want to
9 show the clip that you showed, yourself. I just wanted to put a question
10 in reference to that clip and that refers to the part of the video-clip
11 where Mr. Karremans invited General Mladic to the Fontana, and
12 General Mladic says, What's up, why did you want to talk to me? And then
13 he told him why he wanted to talk to him. And then he told him that he
14 had handed over the weapons to the Muslims.
15 Do you need any further explanation or do you want me to show
16 that part of the clip, that portion of the clip? Thank you.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: We can solve this later. Thank you.
18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perhaps we can clarify that very shortly.
20 Witness, could you tell us if you know anything about handing
21 over of weapons to the Bosnian Muslim Army?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I was never informed of such --
23 of anything of the sort happening.
24 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Thank you, sir. Maybe we'll be able to clarify the matter with
1 those who were involved on another occasion.
2 And now I would like to move to a group of questions about the
3 NATO bombing. Do you know that a NATO Air Force opened fire on
4 Srebrenica while you were there? And if that is indeed the case, could
5 you please tell us who the NATO Air Force opened fire on, on what side?
6 A. As far as I know, there was no actual firing. The only thing
7 that happened, a number of flares were fired from the aircraft just to
8 frighten people, to scare them off.
9 Q. Thank you. On the eve of that day, on the 11th, were you
10 informed by a commander, as a member of the unit, that there would be a
11 NATO campaign in the part of the territory under your control? And in
12 that sense, were some of the troops withdrawn from the territory, some of
13 your troops?
14 A. We were told that F-16s were expected, and that would have been a
15 reason for us to sleep in the bunker.
16 Q. Just for the transcript, could you please tell us when you heard
17 that, and what night was it that you spent sleeping in the bunker in July
18 of that year?
19 A. It must have been the very evening when we were told that, and it
20 should have been the night of 10th to the 11th or maybe 11th to the 12th
21 of July.
22 Q. Thank you. What is the basis for your conclusion that it was
23 either/or, one date or the other?
24 A. Because it is 15 years back in time.
25 Q. Thank you. We will clarify that with those who can provide us
1 with more information, whose report we're going to read. Tell me, did
2 you personally see NATO aircraft and their actions or did you hear it
3 from somebody?
4 A. I did see an aircraft, myself. I can't say with 100 per cent
5 certainty that it -- which side it was on. I suppose it was a NATO
6 plane. And as far as I saw, they only dropped flares.
7 Q. Thank you. How far were you from the place where those flares
8 were dropped?
9 A. Do you want me to give an estimate of the height at which the
10 aircraft was?
11 Q. Thank you. Maybe you did not understand me. Maybe the
12 interpretation was wrong. I asked you how far you were from the place at
13 which the flares were dropped. Thank you.
14 A. I don't know where the flares fell. I only saw them being fired
15 from the aircraft. It must have been -- well, it can be a difference
16 between half a kilometre to one kilometre.
17 Q. Were you in Potocari at that time? Thank you.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And how did the population react to NATO sorties, and what were
20 their expectations in respect of the NATO Air Force sorties?
21 A. I don't even remember whether there was a reaction or what the
22 expectations could have been.
23 Q. Thank you. And you, as UNPROFOR members and members of the
24 Dutch Battalion, did you know who the actions were targeted against?
25 Were they targeted against the Serb Army or the Muslim Army?
1 A. Well, considering that the enclave was being invaded by the
2 Serbian side, I suppose that they wanted to fire at the Serbian
4 Q. Thank you. I asked you this to find out whether you had been
5 told to possibly expect reactions as a result of the NATO campaign and if
6 you had been told who the target of those actions was. Thank you.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Again, I have no problem with questions
8 associated with statements, but there was no question in that statement
9 that I could tell.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, what is your question?
11 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
12 Q. My question is this: Were battalion troops ever told what the
13 target of the aircraft campaign was and if they could possibly expect
14 reactions from that side as a result of the NATO campaign, against them?
15 A. No, I can't really answer that question.
16 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you. Witness, we shall
17 indeed clarify all that with all those who were privy to that
19 I'd like to thank you for your answers so far. I've tried to
20 eliminate some of the questions because of the answers you have provided.
21 And now I would kindly ask the Presiding Judge to admit the
22 reports, 1D71 and 1D -- 1D71 into evidence.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, do you tender the whole report or
24 the pages you used with this witness?
25 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we would like to
1 tender the whole report, because that report will be presented to a
2 number of other witnesses who will be testifying about the contents of
3 the report, but I leave it in your hands. I would like to tender the
4 entire report into evidence. Thank you.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
6 Mr. McCloskey.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. Mr. President, I would agree with
8 General Tolimir on that. It's a short report, and it will be used
9 throughout, I would believe, with the officers in charge, and so I think
10 it's probably a good idea for you to have that now. It's not one of
11 these massive reports, and it would put everything in context as well.
12 Pardon me.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
14 The entire report will be received.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D20, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, do you tender other documents you
17 have used?
18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. There's something
19 pending from yesterday. I suppose that I should have tendered the
20 informal statement that I presented to the witness yesterday. My legal
21 assistant will send you a submission on that statement. Our witness that
22 we heard yesterday was protected, so I wouldn't go into many details of
23 the issues with regard to that document and the submissions that my legal
24 assistant is going to send you.
25 I take this opportunity to thank Mr. Groenewegen, everybody who
1 have helped me with the cross-examination today. I apologise to the
2 Prosecution if the time that I've taken with this witness has interfered
3 with their plans. And I would like to thank everybody again, and
4 especially the witness, who has been answering my questions during the
5 cross-examination. Thank you.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir.
7 Mr. McCloskey, do you have any re-examination?
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Groenewegen, you will be pleased to --
10 Mr. Groenewegen, you will be pleased to hear that this concludes your
11 examination. Thank you very much that you were able to come to the
12 Tribunal again. You are free now to return to your normal activities.
13 Thank you again.
14 And we will adjourn now for the second break and resume at 1.00,
15 if there is another witness available, Mr. McCloskey.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, there should be an investigator available.
17 I think they probably sent the other witness home, but I will check.
18 But can we get an estimate of cross-examination for the other
19 witness? He has never been cross-examined before. I don't know if it's
20 something that the general was planning. Because if he's available and
21 the cross-examination is short, perhaps we can finish him, but -- and it
22 would be nice to know, in the future, if we're going to bring him back as
24 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I do
25 intend to put several questions to that witness because of those who were
1 participants in the event that he participated in and that are
2 interpreted in many different ways. Thank you.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The problem, Mr. Tolimir, is that there was a
4 witness available and who was sent back, as I heard, and we lose court
5 time in that way because the indication was not quite clear. We should
6 use, every day, the full time of hearings for the examination of
8 First of all, I would like to thank the witness again, and he is
9 now free to leave the courtroom first, and then we can shortly deal with
10 the question of the next witness. Thank you very much, Mr. Groenewegen.
11 [The witness withdrew]
12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
13 We're mindful of the court time, and we are prepared to examine
14 the investigator who is supposed to testify today. I'm sure that he will
15 be talking about the matter that we have already prepared to
16 cross-examine other investigators on.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
18 Mr. McCloskey.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: I am told Mr. Janc is available. He'll speak
20 briefly about a preparation of maps that we have for the Court and be
21 available, of course, for cross-examination.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
23 We will adjourn now and resume at 1.00.
24 --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.
25 [The witness entered court]
1 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon, sir.
3 Please, could you stand. Please read aloud the affirmation on
4 the card which is shown to you now.
5 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
6 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 WITNESS: DUSAN JANC
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. And now please be seated.
9 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think Mr. McCloskey has some questions for you.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Examination by Mr. McCloskey:
13 Q. Can you first tell us your name, please?
14 A. My name is Dusan Janc.
15 Q. And what is your current position?
16 A. I am an investigator with the Office of the Prosecutor.
17 Q. And what team are you assigned to?
18 A. I'm assigned to the Srebrenica investigation team or the Tolimir
19 trial team.
20 Q. And how long have you been an investigator with the Office of the
22 A. I've been here now for four years, so from 1st of June, 2006.
23 Q. And have you been on that same Srebrenica team from the
25 A. Yes, indeed.
1 Q. All right. And prior to coming here, what was your position?
2 A. I was the criminal investigator with Slovenian police. I worked
3 there since 1993, when I joined the police after I completed my secondary
4 school, so and then I have a different position within the Slovenian
5 police organisation.
6 Q. All right. So where were you born?
7 A. I was born in Kranj, in Slovenia
8 Q. And when did you first go to the police -- start receiving police
9 education or training?
10 A. I started my secondary school -- police school in 1989, and after
11 four years I completed it. And I joined the police forces in July 1993.
12 Q. And did you ever -- were you ever transferred outside of Slovenia
13 during this period of 1991 through 1996?
14 A. No, I was all the time in Slovenia
15 Q. Were you ever in the armed forces of any army?
16 A. No, because when you are a police officer in Slovenia, you don't
17 need to go to the armed forces. So if you serve for police, you don't
18 need to join the armed forces.
19 Q. All right. And thank you for being available at short notice to
20 talk about this one exhibit today. And it is Exhibit 06196, and I see
21 that you have it in front of you. You also have a piece of paper that's
22 in front of you. That should be two pages. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes, indeed, this is my information report I prepared for this
24 testimony, so it relates to this map book. So -- and it has an
25 ERN 0674882-328824 [sic].
1 Q. And I know it has some detailed information in it. So if you do
2 need to refer to it, I don't think that would be a problem. Just let us
3 know that you are referring to it.
4 Now, really, we have called you just to talk about and lay a
5 foundation for the admission of this map book, and we have hard copies
6 that we've provided the Court Officer.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think, Your Honours, while I'm sure it's on
8 e-court, you may want to just have it. It's meant to be something you
9 have with you on your desk, if you so choose, though it will also come up
10 on e-court.
11 Q. And, first of all, can you tell us who prepared this book?
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, do you have the hard copy of this
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I do, I
15 do have a hard copy, and I've examined it thoroughly.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: And we have provided, where necessary, the B/C/S
17 translations for the book for the general.
18 Q. And just briefly tell us what it is.
19 A. Yes. It's a map book which was prepared for this Tolimir trial
20 by Tolimir trial team, and consisting of investigators and the lawyers,
21 and also mainly by the GIS
22 Information System Unit," so there is a lady who helped us with the
23 creation of this book.
24 Q. And what's her name from the GIS unit?
25 A. Her name is Alina Stretton.
1 Q. And just briefly, what is this GIS unit? What do they do?
2 A. Actually, they are dealing with the maps. As I explained, "GIS
3 it means "Geographical Information System." It is a software where you
4 create maps.
5 Q. All right. And it's my plan just to briefly go through the book
6 and ask you about where each of the maps came from. I don't want at this
7 time to go into any substance of the meaning or why particular things
8 were done at this point. It's just to form a foundation for the
9 introduction into evidence.
10 But, of course, if there are -- Your Honour, if you do have
11 questions about what you see, of course, Mr. Janc is ready to do that.
12 So let's open it up to the first page, which ends in ERN -- it's
13 actually not the first page. It ends in ERN 3272. It's just the table
14 of contents page. And this, I take it, is just the brief description of
15 each item in the book.
16 A. Yes, indeed, this is a brief description of each item, each page
17 in this book.
18 Q. Okay. Let's go to the first map, then, page 1.
19 No, that's not it. It would be ERN 0701-3273. There you go.
20 Now, this map, we obviously can't read much -- or I can't read
21 very well any of the words on it. Just tell us what this map is. Where
22 did we get it?
23 A. This map was obtained from the publicly-available source in 1994,
24 from the times, and it is a map showing the area of the former Yugoslavia
25 with all the republics.
1 Q. All right. And this coloured section in the left corner, is that
2 meant to be any part of this case or information at all?
3 A. No, we are not interested in this part.
4 Q. Okay. Well, we -- in fact, you can't really read it, in any
5 event. All right. So this gives us a basic background of the borders.
6 Let's go to page 2, then.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: First a question from the Bench.
8 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.
9 Just for my education, actually --
10 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]
11 JUDGE NYAMBE: Yes. Just for my education, if you could just
12 read out -- as Mr. McCloskey has said, I can't read all the names of the
13 republics in the former Yugoslavia
14 please, pointing from this map? Thank you.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And go back, please, to page 1, to the previous
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, I can.
18 The first one, I will start from the left to the right, is
20 have further Republic of Yugoslavia
21 right it's Macedonia
22 MR. McCLOSKEY:
23 Q. And can you also just give us the border countries that we see,
24 starting with Austria
25 A. Yeah, the border countries --
1 Q. Let's start with Italy
2 A. Yeah. Indeed, first one would be Italy from the left. Then we
3 go top right corner is Austria
4 Below Romania
5 are the surrounding countries.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
7 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Your Honour. Now let's --
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, another intervention? Mr. Tolimir.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Could we please have it explained to us? Here it says that in
12 the left bottom corner, where we see the smaller map with some legends,
13 that that cannot be easily read. However, it is possible to read it, and
14 it contains information about the map which only suits those who wanted
15 to present it in that way, whereas it doesn't say why the national
16 structure or the ethnic structure is presented the way it is. Thank you.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. I am not interested -- I can't tell what
19 this map says. I don't even know what it has to do with. But it's not
20 something we're asking the Court to review. The ethnic compounds of the
21 various municipalities and areas in Bosnia may be something very hotly
22 interested by the general. It's not something I'm interested in at this
23 point, nor do these maps -- are they designed to display this in any way.
24 So we can -- I'm not asking the Court to review this. If it's something
25 that the general contests with "The Times of London," I can -- just, I
1 don't know what else to say.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's not necessary to deal with that. Just carry
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
5 Let's go to page 2.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it is being proposed here to
8 tender these maps, and yet the Prosecutor says that it doesn't mean
9 anything to him. Then I would appreciate it if we could remove the
10 smaller map from the bigger map, because on the larger map you can see
11 what is being put here, because I feel it is not necessary to show this
12 smaller -- or to admit this smaller map into evidence because it presents
13 details that are only understandable to us who are from that area. Thank
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: There's no decision of the Chamber yet about
16 admission of this map. We can deal with that later. I think in the
17 moment -- you can deal with that in cross-examination, but now please
18 carry on, Mr. McCloskey.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
20 Q. First of all, tell us who created this map.
21 A. This map was created by the Geographical Information System unit
22 of the OTP.
23 Q. And what is it?
24 A. It is a map of Bosnia and Herzegovina with the entities. So this
25 map was created by the OTP, and it was based on the GIS information we
1 received in 2002 from the GIS
2 boundaries you can see inside here, I mean the municipality boundaries
3 and the Dayton
4 into their data and then geographically referenced into the map.
5 Then you have another line which you can see it's approximate
6 VRS/HVO/ABiH confrontation line, and this was taken from the other
7 source, which was HQ Brit for current situation map. So these are
8 details which you can see on this map.
9 Q. And is this meant to be absolute, these lines, or is this meant
10 to give us a general indication of these various lines at various times,
11 as indicated?
12 A. No, all these various lines on this map and on following maps
13 would be rough, rough lines, so it's not meant to be in the exact lines.
14 Q. All right. Let's go to the next map, which is on page 3. We can
15 again see Bosnia and Herzegovina, and what are -- where did the
16 information come from that we see on this map?
17 A. Again, for the country boundaries and the municipality
18 boundaries, the information was the same as for the map before. But
19 for -- then we can see the bold black lines. These are the corps
20 boundaries which were taken from Rick Butler's report.
21 Q. The corps of what army?
22 A. Yes, corps of the VRS, VRS Army.
23 Q. All right. And just to remind us, who is Rick Butler?
24 A. Rick Butler is a military analyst who will also testify in this
1 Q. Okay. Let's go to page 4. And what is this a blow-up of?
2 A. This is the Drina Corps area of responsibility map, where you can
3 see the brigade boundaries inside the Drina Corps area of responsibility.
4 And this one was taken from the map we have obtained from the Drina Corps
5 collection, so with ERN number 00 -- sorry, 0444, and I will read it from
6 my report, 3019.
7 Q. Now, the Drina Corps collection, can you just -- there will be a
8 witness about that, but can you briefly explain to this Trial Chamber
9 what that means, what the Drina Corps collection is?
10 A. The Drina Corps collection is a huge collection which we
11 received, obtained, I think, in 2004 from Bosnia or Banja Luka, or
13 Tomasz Blaszczyk, who will testify about it. So we received a huge
14 collection of Drina Corps documents, different documents. Also, maps
15 were included in this collection, and they were stamped here, and this is
16 part of -- this map is part of this collection.
17 Q. Okay. Just very simply, and I know your colleague will talk
18 about this, but this Drina Corps collection, was that thought to be an
19 archives by the investigative team of the Drina Corps material from the
21 A. Yeah, indeed, that was an archive of the Drina Corps material,
22 documents, from 2009, up to the end of the war in 2005. Also, we have
23 documents from 2006, and it's in total, I think, 200.000 pages, something
24 like that.
25 Q. Okay. And we can see that these are the various brigades
1 outlined in that original map from the Drina Corps archives?
2 A. Yes, indeed.
3 Q. And just a curious thing. I noticed, right before you were
4 testifying, we see -- can we blow that up a little bit? One more time,
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which part of the map?
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Kladanj. That's perfect, thank you.
8 Q. Now, we can tell, from the legend of the map -- and again I don't
9 want to analyse all this material at this point, but I just -- there's
10 one odd thing I wanted to ask you about. We can tell, from the legend of
11 the map, that this black line that we see between Kladanj and Vlasenica
12 is the approximate confrontation line in April of 1995, and it shows that
13 the yellow part of the Drina Corps would incorporate Kladanj. And I
14 don't think I'm aware of any information where the Drina Corps ever held
15 Kladanj. Do you have any explanation for that?
16 A. No, I do apologise, I don't have any explanation why that Kladanj
17 is on that side. I would rather check the original map again to be clear
18 about it. So I would rather check it again. So I have no explanation.
19 But, you know, according to our military analyst, this is the map which
20 was used for this map.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: We will endeavour to bring in that map so you can
22 get an idea of what it is he's talking about anyway, so you can see what
23 kind of maps these things are based on.
24 Okay. All right, let's go to the next page, page 5. And if you
25 could blow that up just to -- so we can read some of the cities, probably
1 getting Srebrenica into the mix. That's perfect. Yeah, keep going.
2 Just get Srebrenica. There, that's fine.
3 Q. And what is this map?
4 A. This map is a simplified map of the area of the eastern part of
6 purposes. I think we obtained it in -- by the end of 1999, beginning of
7 2000. And they based their maps on the maps obtained from the
8 United States.
9 Q. And is this map, while it's a simplified map, is it to scale?
10 A. I don't think so it's in -- or it should be -- I can -- I don't
11 know. I didn't check that information.
12 Q. All right.
13 A. So what was with this map was just -- what we received was the
14 empty map, so means that red dots you can see on this map, also on the
15 arrows you can see in this map, and the rectangles you can see in this
16 map, were inserted by us, by the OTP, later on. And the base for these
17 arrows and these dots was the map also obtained from the -- not
18 Drina Corps collection, but from the Zvornik Brigade collection, or it
19 was obtained during the search of the Zvornik Brigade. And the ERN of
20 that map would be 0082-7577. So and these markings were put by military
21 analysts into this map, and these maps were already used in the other
22 Srebrenica-related trials; Krstic trial, Blagojevic trial, and Popovic
23 trial. So and the following two maps are just, you know, blow-ups this
24 same map.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. And, Your Honours, we will have copies of
1 those VRS maps in their reproduced normal size if you would like to have
2 them for your review as well. And I will continue.
3 Q. Page 6, you've already referenced that this was just a blow-up of
4 the other map, and all these -- the red lines and the other lines is
5 material that the investigators and the lawyers put on for the case, I
6 take it.
7 A. Yes, indeed. And you see the area of the enclave, Srebrenica
8 enclave here. This was -- this was done by the Dutch Institute. So we
9 haven't inserted this part of it.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: One question by Judge Nyambe, please.
12 JUDGE NYAMBE: For the witness, just a clarification.
13 At page 70, lines 17 and 18, you say this map and the rectangles
14 you can see in this map were "inserted by us." Can you indicate the
15 rectangles on your map?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The previous map, please.
18 JUDGE NYAMBE: The map, page 5.
19 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, it will be in the map, the third map;
20 not this one, but the one -- the two after this one, where you will have
21 the rectangles. So on this one, you can see the rectangles -- you can
22 see just the red dots, but the rectangles will be on the third map.
23 JUDGE NYAMBE: Just to help us not get confused, when you say
24 "the next map," or "the previous map," it might be good to say, The map
25 on such and such page. Thank you.
1 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, I do apologise. So it is -- the
2 rectangles will be on the map with ERN 0701-3279.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY:
4 Q. And that is page 7. And we've already talked about 6 briefly, so
5 let's now go to 7.
6 And we see circles, and now we see rectangles, as -- no, that's
7 not the right page. Sorry. Sorry, we need page 7, not map 7. There we
8 go. And if you could just blow that a little more, we'll be able to see
9 the --
10 So when you were talking about rectangles, is this what you
12 A. Yes, indeed, that's what I meant.
13 Q. And just looking at the legend, is that correct, the rectangles
14 are to represent schools and the circles are written in to represent mass
16 A. Yes, indeed.
17 Q. Okay. And is there any particular reason why this map is the
18 only map that has rectangles on it of mass executions, when there was
19 certainly mass executions alleged in the other parts of the map?
20 A. I would not know that. Sorry.
21 Q. Okay. All right, let's go to page 8, e-court page 10.
22 Now, this looks like something new. What is this?
23 A. This is again a simplified map, but this one was created by the
24 OTP GIS
25 area stretching south from Rogatica to the north up to Batkovic, so just
1 to show the general area of this eastern part of Bosnia. And then you
2 can see the enclave boundaries or lines, which were taken from the Drina
3 Corps map with ERN 0438-8412 and geo-referenced into this map.
4 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next page, e-court 11. Now, if we could
5 blow this up a little bit so we can read the writing in one of those
6 boxes. Actually, let's look at the top box, because that will include
8 So what we can see here is a Cyrillic map with English in white
9 underneath it. Can you tell us what this is?
10 A. Yes. This is the map which was obtained -- or obtained again
11 from Drina Corps collection, and it has the original ERN 0438-8415. What
12 we have in front of us is already the scanned map of this original map,
13 with the inserted translations. So this one was created for Popovic
14 trial, so it is actually the scan of this same map with inserted
15 translations of the text on the map.
16 Q. Okay. Let's go to the next page, then, 12 on e-court.
17 Now, again we see a map. Can you just tell us, first of all, the
18 background map with the basic map detail, without any of the colours,
19 what is that, and what was on it originally when we obtained it?
20 A. Yes. This map we can see in front of us now, we compiled with
21 three different maps, so we have used, as a base, three different maps
22 from Drina Corps collection again. So they are ERN 0438-8412, the second
23 one 0444-2916, and the last one, 0444-3118, because one of such maps did
24 not include the entire area we wanted to include, so from Zepa up to
25 Han Pijesak on the left-hand side, so -- and then we inserted these
1 significant VRS positions and highlighted some roads into that map. So
2 we created this map based on the ones I have just mentioned.
3 Q. Okay. What, if you can tell me, were you referring to just then
4 when you said "we put the information on the map"? Was that the purple
5 circles and the white boxes?
6 A. Yes, indeed. The circles, white boxes, and we highlighted some
7 town names as Rogatica and Han Pijesak, and then you can see in purple
8 some -- in purple you can see roads leading up -- up from Borike up to
9 Han Pijesak, so that's what we have made.
10 Q. What, if you can recall, was on the original VRS map that we
11 obtained from the Drina Corps collection, if anything?
12 A. Yes. We can see, in the middle on the right-hand side, we can
13 see the cross with four Cs, and then around -- and some yellow arrows and
14 red arrows and this what is on the original map.
15 Q. And this cross with the four Cs, are those actually four Cs?
16 A. Yes, indeed. These are Cyrillic four Cs.
17 Q. Are they Cs or some other letter in Cyrillic?
18 A. Oh, sorry, these are S, Ss, four Ss. Sorry.
19 Q. And do you know what that stands for? If you don't, I --
20 A. No, I don't.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay, all right. And again, Your Honours, we do
22 have the original VRS maps for you to see what the original VRS
23 information was and what we've put on it.
24 All right, let's go to the next one, page 13 in e-court.
25 Q. Is this a different map from what we've seen before?
1 A. This is a blow-up of the same map we discussed earlier, the map
2 with translations. So this is a blow-up of the Zepa part of this same
3 map with ERN 0438-8415. And, again, some original markings which were
4 already there. You can see in blue the area of enclave and some red
5 lines, so that was already there. So what we have put are those white
6 boxes and circles around certain places. These are all our markings, and
7 of course the legend on the right-hand side.
8 Q. All right. Let's go to the next map, 14.
9 Okay. There we see two of the Ss in Cyrillic on this map. Is
10 that the same as the Cyrillic Ss that we saw -- the same map, just a
11 different portion of it?
12 A. Yes, indeed. This is again compilation of those three maps I've
13 told you before, so a compilation of the same maps. So it's just a
14 blow-up, I would say, of the same area with some significant points --
15 VRS points at that time.
16 Q. And what is this purple highlighting that we see? Was that added
17 by you or is that part of the original map?
18 A. No, that was added by us. These purple lines are the roads
19 leading up and down or around this area we can see.
20 Q. All right. Let's go to the next one, 15.
21 What is this?
22 A. This is the satellite image of the same area we have just viewed,
23 so it's the area of Zepa or stretching south from Borike up to
24 Han Pijesak. And this image was obtained from the -- I have to consult
25 my report. It was obtained by the Supreme Headquarters, Allied Powers,
2 know, but it's the image obtained from that source. So, and again, you
3 can see some markings on this map, and these were inserted by us. So the
4 image -- the original image was without any markings, it was a typical
5 aerial image, and then all the markings you can see on this image were
6 inserted by us.
7 Q. And, again, this purple highlighting, what is that?
8 A. It's the same as the map before. These are roads -- different
9 roads which are leading across the area.
10 Q. And just for basic knowledge, the red that we see on this and the
11 blue, what do those indicate?
12 A. Yeah, the red is the area of the enclave. Now, I'm -- no, sorry,
13 it's -- yeah, it is taken from the map with four Ss, so the same red
14 line. It has the same meaning here. It says, yeah, approximate location
15 of the Serb positions at that time.
16 Q. And the VRS maps that were obtained from the Drina Corps
17 collection or from the Zvornik Brigade, did they traditionally mark the
18 Serb positions in one colour and the Muslim positions in another?
19 A. Yes, indeed. The Serb positions are usually in red, and the
20 Muslim positions are in blue.
21 Q. Okay. All right, let's go to the next page, 16.
22 Now, this looks like a different map. What kind of map is this?
23 A. Yeah, so far we have been reviewing 1:50.000 maps, and this is
24 the map of 1:25.000. So it means you can see more details in this map.
25 And this is the area of the Borike and Boksanica, so it's a blow-up of
1 the map. And the basis for this map was the map we obtained from NATO,
2 NATO C-3 Agency here in The Hague
3 they have provided this 1:25.000 map to us. And, again, these circles
4 and blue texts and texts you can see on the map, we have inserted it.
5 Q. All right. Let's go to the next page, 17.
6 What is this?
7 A. This is the blow-up of the area around Rogatica, showing
8 significant positions around that town, which will be discussed in this
9 case. And this map is based on the VRS and the Drina Corps collection
10 map 0444-3118, so it's 1:50.000 map, this one.
11 Q. Okay. And it's just a blow-up of that, so it makes it look
12 bigger, I take it.
13 A. Yes, indeed, it's a blow-up. And the markings, direct markings
14 you can see on the map, were ours, while the circle around Rogatica with
15 number 62 you can see, you will find it on the original map.
16 Q. Okay. The next one, 18?
17 A. It is again the area of Rogatica, but this is now 1:25.000 map
18 again obtained from the same sources, C-3 NATO Agency, so it's again, you
19 know, significant positions in Rogatica.
20 Q. Okay. And then 19. We can see it says "Approximate driving
21 distance and driving time," and then from various places; Rogatica,
22 Borike. And it gives the kilometres and the average time.
23 Where did this information come from?
24 A. Most of this information came from our missions. We were there
25 on a mission, and we have been measuring these distances and driving
1 times for most of them. For some of them, where we did not measure the
2 actual times and distances, we have obtained these distances from the
3 sources, from the -- yeah, from the sources, and then we have estimated
4 the driving times. So I have participated in some of those missions, but
5 for all of them, it was also my colleague, Erin Gallagher, who was
6 present at most of them.
7 Q. And what year or years was this done, were these roads driven and
8 these miles noted -- kilometres noted?
9 A. Yeah, this was done this year and last year.
10 Q. And so this would not include wartime conditions, roads in the
11 war, or check-points, that sort of thing; this is just meant to be what
12 you found recently?
13 A. Yes, indeed. And I assume the conditions are much different now,
14 because there are asphalt roads now, and you can see there are new roads,
15 and I don't know how it was at that time. Probably, they were not
16 asphalt roads at that time.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
18 Mr. President, I see we're just beyond our time. I will bring
19 the original maps for the continuing of this, and then it will be over,
20 and over to the general for cross-examination.
21 And, of course, if we could speak to Mr. Janc about other things
22 than this testimony, we would appreciate it for the next week.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Still one question from my colleague,
24 Judge Nyambe.
25 JUDGE NYAMBE: Yes, again for the witness.
1 The page I'm looking at of your book is 9. You can bring it up
2 maybe on the screen.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's the map number 9.
4 JUDGE NYAMBE: Yes. At the top of the map, in white, there is an
5 inscription, and I read:
6 "Disposition of our enemy and UNPROFOR forces around the enclaves
7 of Srebrenica and Zepa."
8 Who is the owner of this map, who reproduced this map, and to
9 what do those words refer?
10 THE WITNESS: The owner of this map is the VRS. I would say for
11 this particular map, it's Drina Corps. Drina Corps, yes. So they have
12 wrote all these text on this map.
13 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
15 This ends the examination-in-chief for today. You may return to
16 your normal work. Thank you very much that you could make it to come
17 here at short notice, but take -- bear in mind, please, that you should
18 now, during the quite long break until the continuation of your
19 testimony, that you shouldn't talk, about -- to either party about the
20 content of your testimony. Of course, you are -- as a member of the OTP,
21 entitled to talk to colleagues about your normal work. Thank you very
23 We have to adjourn now, but I would like to know, next week, on
24 the 22nd and 23rd, we are continuing the cross-examination of the
25 Witness Ruez; is that correct?
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. And if we could, it would be
2 good to just start with him and catch Mr. Janc when we can, because we
3 really don't want to risk having to bring back Mr. Ruez again.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think this is a very good idea. We should
5 proceed in that way.
6 I would like to mention a very short issue.
7 Perhaps you'll remember, on the 25th of March, 2010, during the
8 testimony of the Witness Oric, we had marked one document. It was a
9 newspaper article only in English, tendered by the Defence. We were told
10 by the CLSS that these articles will not be translated into B/C/S, so
11 that it will be now an exhibit as tendered by the Defence. That means
12 that the Defence Exhibit 18.
13 We have to adjourn now and resume on the 22nd of April.
14 [The witness stands down]
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.52 p.m.
16 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 22nd day of
17 April, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.