1 Tuesday, 27 April 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning to everybody in the courtroom.
6 Could the witness be brought in, please.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning, Mr. Blaszczyk. I hope that was the
9 right pronunciation. Please sit down.
10 I would like to remind you that the affirmation to tell the truth
11 still applies, and Mr. Thayer has some questions for you, I suppose.
12 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President, and good morning to you
13 and Judge Nyambe.
14 General Tolimir, Mr. Gajic, good morning, everyone.
15 WITNESS: TOMASZ BLASZCZYK [Resumed]
16 Examination by Mr. Thayer: [Continued]
17 Q. Good morning again, sir.
18 A. Good morning.
19 Q. I just wanted to follow-up on a couple of things you said
20 yesterday. I was just going over the transcript last night. At
21 transcript page 1411, line 4, you described the physical collection of
22 these documents, the pick-up of these documents, if you will, from
23 Gornji Milanovac in Serbia
24 the transcript, says:
25 "And it happened, it happened on the night of December 2004,"
1 that this commission went to Gornji Milanovac. I just want to ask you,
2 did you mean to say the night of December 2004 or something else?
3 A. No, I meant December 9th, the day.
4 Q. Okay, 9 of December.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. All right. When you travelled to Zagreb on 17 December, what was
7 your assignment at that time, sir?
8 A. At that time I received task to review -- to make initial
9 assessment of the collection, of the papers. What is in -- whether this
10 is archive of Main Staff or Drina Corps or another unit.
11 Q. Okay. And you mentioned yesterday that this process of entering
12 the massive collection by the OTP evidence unit involved assigning ERNs
13 and MIF-ing, I think you said, and then ultimately placing it on the
14 system, to use your term. Can you please explain to the Trial Chamber
15 what you meant when you referred to placing these documents on the system
16 so that everybody could have access to them, as you said before.
17 A. It means that documents after receiving ERN numbers, stamped by
18 ERN numbers, our evidence registration number, were scanned and put in
19 our database. We call it Zyfind. Having these documents in Zyfind, the
20 documents are available for everybody who has, of course, access to the
21 Zyfind, to this database.
22 Q. And does everybody include not just members of the OTP, but
23 members of Defence teams and other authorised folks who represent the
24 accused in these cases?
25 A. I believe if -- yes, if somebody has access or is authorised to
1 have access to this database, yes, has access also to these documents.
2 Q. And have you also heard of the term "EDS"?
3 A. Yes. This is Evidence Disclosed System, and I believe Defence --
4 for sure Defence has access to this system.
5 Q. And again, is that another form of a database or document
6 retrieval system?
7 A. Yeah, this is another form of database.
8 Q. And to your knowledge, was the Drina Corps collection ultimately
9 available on this EDS
10 A. Yes, it was.
11 Q. I'd like to take you back a little bit and ask you some questions
12 about how the collection actually came into being in the first place, not
13 how it arrived at Gornji Milanovac, but how these actual documents were
14 put together to form what we refer to as the Drina Corps collection. Can
15 you share with the Trial Chamber what you've learned through the course
16 of your investigation about how that happened, please.
17 A. In fact, the first information about the collection, how the
18 documents of the Drina Corps were collected, we received from the witness
19 statement, the statement of Nebojsa Vucetic, I think -- Vukovic [sic],
20 sorry, and he told first to the representative of RS in his statement,
21 later on to our investigator, that the collection was -- the papers from
22 Drina Corps units were collected between -- at the end of -- at the
23 beginning of 1996 year until April 1996. Later on, the papers were kept
24 first at Vlasenica command post and in April 1996 were sent to Bijeljina
25 Corps, to the 3rd Corps in Bijeljina, and where the collection was kept
1 there for one year.
2 In May 1997, the collection was again transported from
3 Bijeljina -- from Bijeljina to Sokolac to the premises of the 5th Corps
4 of VRS. And according to this witness, on the order of the Chief of
5 Staff of 5th Corps, at that time Colonel Svetozar Andric, the collection
6 was transported or transferred to Mali Zvornik in Serbia. It was April
7 1998. According to this witness it was end of April/beginning of May
9 Q. Okay. Let me just stop you right there if I could, sir. The
10 Trial Chamber's obviously heard references to the Drina Corps and the
11 Drina Corps's subordinate units, the various brigades. You just referred
12 to the 5th Corps. What is the 5th Corps?
13 A. This is, after the war the VRS was reorganised and the 5th Corps
14 was created after the war. I believe it was 1997, I think, but I am not
15 sure 100 per cent. But definitely it was after the Dayton Agreement
16 after 1996.
17 Q. So after the Dayton Agreement at some point, what happened to the
18 Drina Corps itself?
19 A. The Drina Corps was first kept at the command post, as I told, in
20 Vlasenica, then transferred to Bijeljina, and then again transferred, but
21 not to Vlasenica but to the headquarters of the -- to Sokolac. And
22 after -- from Sokolac to Mali
23 probably about between April 1998 or let's say about spring 1999, the
24 collection was taken somewhere from Mali Zvornik and finally was found
25 again in Gornji Milanovac in Serbia
1 Q. Okay. A couple of things. First is, we need to pause a little
2 bit more, I think, between our question and answer because we're speaking
3 the same language.
4 Second, the question I asked actually was not what happened to
5 the Drina Corps collection, but what happened to the Drina Corps as a
6 military unit after the Dayton Agreement.
7 A. After the Dayton Agreement, Drina Corps was disbanded, and at
8 that place was created 5th Corps.
9 Q. So you told us that in -- sometime in the -- in April of 1998,
10 the decision was taken by General Andric to move the Drina Corps
11 collection from the Republika Srpska across the river to Serbia
12 share with the Trial Chamber whether you know from your investigation or
13 learned from your investigation why that decision was taken. Did
14 something happen prior to April of 1998 to cause General Andric to make
15 that decision to move these documents?
16 A. At the beginning of 1998, in exactly March 1998, the OTP with
17 support of NATO troops in Bosnia
18 in -- it was location in Zvornik Brigade at that time and in Bratunac.
19 And for sure the people who are responsible for archive, they knew that
20 sooner or later we were going to search also in other locations, looking
21 for the documents from this period, from war period, especially we are --
22 I mean, Srebrenica team was interested at that time about documents from
23 summer 1995.
24 Q. Okay. What I'd like to do is you've mentioned a couple of
25 locations and just briefly and with Madam Usher's assistance if we can
1 use the ELMO, I want to show you a cut-out from a map. We had thought we
2 could use e-court and one of our map-book maps from e-court, but the
3 resolution simply isn't sufficient. So I've just made a black-and-white
4 photocopy of a portion of P104, and it's from map 1 of P104, the
5 Times Map of the Western Balkans. And I just ask you to -- once we get
6 this up on the ELMO, sir, and I'll give you a green highlighter. If you
7 would, please, just circle Zvornik and you mentioned Mali Zvornik. And
8 if you could just indicate where these locations are and if there's any
10 A. I should mark it on the screen or --
11 Q. Just on the ELMO version would be better, but that's --
12 MR. THAYER: If we can turn that a little bit so we can all read
13 it, please. And can we get a little bit better focus on that. Other
14 way, please. No. Other way, sorry. A little bit more. A little bit
15 more. Zoom out, I think, a little bit -- other way, please. Oh, sorry,
16 yeah, zoom in. If we can get the -- okay.
17 Q. Now, sir, if you can just move that map a little bit around so we
18 can see these couple locations on the -- on the screen, that would be
19 helpful. And if you can just start with Mali Zvornik.
20 A. Sorry, Mali Zvornik is located across the river, not far from
21 Zvornik, just a few kilometres from Zvornik. I will mark here and
22 encircle this place.
23 Q. And, sir, if you could just move your microphone a little closer
24 to your face there. Thanks.
25 A. I circled Mali Zvornik and Zvornik area, but as I said,
1 Mali Zvornik is located across the river in the Serbian territory, but
2 Zvornik is still in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
3 Q. Okay. And just for the record, what river is that that we see
4 separating those two?
5 A. This is Drina River
6 Q. Okay. And if you could circle Gornji Milanovac, please.
7 A. This place is called Gornji Milanovac, is located south of
9 Q. And based on your investigation, the Drina Corps collection, was
10 it recovered actually in the town of Gornji Milanovac or some other
12 A. It was recovered, in fact, in the premises of the Army of Serbia
13 and Montenegro
14 Gornji Milanovac, in the barracks of the army.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. I believe the name of the village was Klaticevo, but --
17 Q. Okay. We'll look at some documents and -- but in any event, how
18 close is that village to Gornji Milanovac, for all intents and purposes?
19 A. I would say this is one of the suburbs of Milanovac,
20 Gornji Milanovac.
21 Q. Thank you, sir. I think that we're done with that exhibit, and
22 perhaps we can -- if we --
23 MR. THAYER: Would Madam Usher just furnish it to Mr. Gajic and
24 General Tolimir and then hand it up to the Trial Chamber. I think it
25 might have been a little bit difficult to see on the ELMO, and then in
1 the meantime we'll continue.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, are you tendering this?
3 MR. THAYER: Yes, Mr. President. We would, upon review by the
4 Defence, tender that cut-out from P104.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P00120. Thank you, Your Honours.
7 MR. THAYER:
8 Q. Okay, sir. Just a couple more questions and then we'll go
9 through a stack of documents that I have here for you. How many pages
10 approximately is the Drina Corps collection?
11 A. The Drina Corps collection consists of about 315.000 pages, plus
12 including -- including, of course, about 360 maps and approximately
13 3.500 photographs.
14 Q. And, sir, the transcript reflects that you said 315.000 pages, is
15 that the correct number or is it another number?
16 A. I think this is correct number, because I look at the range of
17 ERN numbers. If we're counting the range, it could be about
18 315.000 pages.
19 Q. Okay. Now, during the course of your investigation has the
20 authenticity of this collection been established to you; and if so, how
21 has that been done?
22 A. Yes. We did it through -- mostly through the witnesses. We
23 showed few documents from this collection, some of the documents from
24 this collection, to our witnesses, various witnesses. They recognised
25 the handwritings, the signatures which were put on the papers, particular
1 documents, and also from the statements of the witness -- of the people
2 who testified also in the previous trial. And I can say that this has
3 been established also through our handwriting expert, because few of the
4 documents from this collection were sent to our handwriting expert to
5 make the analysis of that one, to make a report. We got this report, I
6 believe it was 2008, and it was confirmed that the signatures on the
7 documents are authentic.
8 Q. And during the course of your investigation, sir, have you been
9 able to identify other copies of documents which were found in the
10 Drina Corps collection?
11 A. Yes, we managed to have another copies of some documents from
12 Drina Corps collection. We found these copies also in other collection,
13 like, for example, the VRS Main Staff archive in Banja Luka. I think it
14 was 2008 or 2006. And we got some copies from our witnesses, one of our
15 witness, it was -- yeah, it was the man who was accused by the Tribunal.
16 And we -- as far as I remember, we got also few copies of Drina Corps
17 documents from the Defence of General Krstic during his trial.
18 Q. And what can you tell the Trial Chamber based, again, on your
19 investigation about how complete the Drina Corps collection is or is not?
20 A. I am pretty sure we are calling it Drina Corps collection, but I
21 am pretty sure that the collection is not complete because if we look at
22 the sequence order of few documents, the serial number of the particular
23 documents, it's visible that a lot of documents are not in this
24 collection. If we are referring, for example, to security documents and
25 intelligence documents, it's a lot of gaps between the series.
1 Q. And did you find gaps in the series from other organs as well
2 within the Drina Corps and other units?
3 A. Yes, of course. It's not only in regards to the security and
4 intelligence documents, but also to operational documents, to logistic
5 documents, and other documents.
6 Q. And were you able to determine whether any particular date
7 ranges, for example, were missing from the collection?
8 A. I'm sure that the most significant period where -- I was
9 interested, of course, in Srebrenica events, the most significant period
10 where the documents are missing, where we cannot find anything about
11 particular events and we see the gaps between the documents, it was
12 July 1995 and later July, August, and September till October 1995.
13 Q. And to your knowledge, before this Drina Corps collection was
14 removed from Gornji Milanovac in 2004, who had access to the Drina Corps
15 collection while, for example, it was in Mali Zvornik?
16 A. We know that the Defence of -- probably Defence of General Krstic
17 had access to this collection when it was probably collect -- placed in
19 witnesses who testified in this Tribunal, we know that General Miletic
20 had also access to this collection. And this witness who testified in
21 the previous trial, but I think he was protected witness, he testified
22 that he got access to the collection as well. According to this witness,
23 General Miletic was in Mali Zvornik in the spring 1998.
24 Q. Okay. And just so there's no mystery about it, if we may go into
25 private session, Mr. President, for just a moment.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private session.
2 [Private session]
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session. Thank
20 MR. THAYER:
21 Q. Sir, for the remainder of the examination, let's go through some
22 documents. The first one I'd like to show you is 65 ter 2034, please.
23 A. Sorry, but I have no broadcast of --
24 Q. It's -- there it is.
25 A. Okay.
1 Q. Okay. What we have here is a document dated the
2 8th of December, 2004, from the Republika Srpska Ministry of Defence, a
3 decision, and it refers to a commission being appointed. What is this
4 commission, sir, that's referred to here?
5 A. This is commission appointed for taking over and handing over the
6 archive material the Army of Republika Srpska located in Serbia, in
8 Q. Okay. And these gentlemen by the surnames of Matic, Radisic, and
9 Sisic, who are they members of?
10 A. They were members of this commission appointed by the Minister of
11 Defence, Milovan Stankovic. They were appointed as the members of the
12 commission, but Colonel Mirko Matic became the president of this
13 commission. And they were responsible for taking over and handing over
14 the archive material.
15 Q. Okay. Are they army or are they MUP?
16 A. They are army.
17 Q. And again, sir, the court reporter asked us this morning before
18 we started if you could -- if there could be more of a pause between our
19 question and answer.
20 A. I apologise.
21 Q. Thanks. And I'll do my best, too.
22 And we're done with that document.
23 MR. THAYER: If we could take a look at 65 ter 2036, please.
24 Q. Sir, we have here a decision dated the 8th of December, 2004
25 again from the Republika Srpska Ministry of Defence. Can you just tell
1 us what this decision concerns.
2 A. This is decision of approval of the official trip for the
3 president of the commission, Mirko Matic, lieutenant-colonel. Approval
4 for the trip to abroad, you know, to just collect this documentation.
5 Q. And what does it say about when this trip is supposed to happen?
6 A. Decision was issued on the 8th of December, 2004, but the
7 official trip should take place on the 9th -- 9 of December, 2004.
8 Q. Okay.
9 MR. THAYER: May we have 65 ter 2035, please.
10 Q. Sir, we have here a document headed "General Staff of the Army of
11 Republika Srpska," dated 8 December 2004. First I just have a question
12 for you, if you know. The Trial Chamber has certainly heard many
13 references to the Main Staff of the VRS. And here, in 2004, we see a
14 reference to the General Staff. Can you just explain the difference, if
15 you know.
16 A. In fact, this is difference between the name, but I think that
17 general -- the Main Staff of VRS, the name has been changed --
18 Q. And do you --
19 A. -- sometime after -- I don't know, it was after the Dayton
20 Agreement or after August 1995.
21 Q. Okay. Now, can you just tell the Trial Chamber what this
22 document is about, please, sir.
23 A. This is more or less the same contents of the previous -- as the
24 previous document. This is order for official trip for the -- issued for
25 the members of the commissions -- for the three members of the
1 commission. And it's saying here that the commission, the people listed
2 in this order, should travel to Belgrade
3 the task. And this order is signed by the Chief of General Staff of the
4 Army of Republika Srpska.
5 Q. Okay. And I would just note, sir, that you said it was signed by
6 the Chief of the General Staff. If we're looking at the original version
7 in Cyrillic --
8 A. Yes, I am looking at the original version.
9 Q. Okay. Because we have a translation here that says "head of the
10 Main Staff," but that Cyrillic word is the word for "chief"; is that
11 correct? That's the correct term, not "head"?
12 A. I would translate it as a chief.
13 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir.
14 MR. THAYER: Now, may we have 2037, please.
15 Q. Here we have a -- what's headed as a record, and on the top half
16 it's dated the 8th of December, 2004, and it's generated by the
17 General Staff of the VRS. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what this
18 document is about, please.
19 A. This is kind of the receipt prepared by General Staff by -- of
20 the Army of Republika Srpska. And this receipt, in fact, was prepared on
21 the 8th of December, 2004, but if we look at the original, we see that it
22 has been signed on the 9th of December, 2004. This is a receipt of the
23 receiving of the archive material, which was located in the village of
24 Klaticevo, it is a village located very near to Gornji Milanovac. And we
25 see in the bottom of this original document the signature of
1 Dragan Brcan, who was a member of the Army of Serbia and Montenegro
2 handed over the archive material to the commission. And we have the
3 names and signatures of the members of the commission, Mirko Matic,
4 Dragan Radisic, and Miljan Sisic.
5 Q. And there's a reference to 16 crates; is that correct?
6 A. Yes, this is a reference to the 16 cases of the archive
8 Q. Okay.
9 MR. THAYER: May we have --
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I --
11 MR. THAYER: Certainly, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- ask a question. I didn't understand your
13 comment about the date, that in the original there's some reference to
14 the 9th of December, 2004. I don't see that. Could you explain that a
15 little bit further.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, this is -- as I said, this document was
17 prepared the day before, on the 8th of December, 2004, but I believe
18 next, just above the signature of Dragan Brcan, is the date,
19 9 of December, 2004. It means that the archive was collected on the
20 9th of December, 2004. In fact, this document, without signature, of
21 course, has been prepared the day before the material was collected or
22 handed over.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And below the headline I see the date of
24 8th December 2004
25 Please carry on, Mr. Thayer.
1 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 May we have 65 ter 2031, please.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before this will be removed, Mr. Tolimir wants to
4 raise something.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Peace to
6 this house and to everybody following this trial; may God help you all.
7 I wanted to say something about the record. If you look at the
8 heading of the document, in the Serbian version we can see the year 2000,
9 and in the record it says 2004. Could that mistake or that error be
10 removed. Thank you.
11 MR. THAYER: Well, Mr. President, I think the document speaks for
12 itself, and I think we should just leave it at that.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I think this is just an omission to
14 put a number 4 to it. It's not 2000 but 200 and then there is a gap, if
15 you look at that. But you may deal with this during cross-examination.
16 Please carry on, Mr. Thayer.
17 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 May we have 65 ter 2031 on e-court, please.
19 Q. Sir, we -- we're looking at a document and it appears,
20 unfortunately, we don't have a translation of this document. Let me just
21 double-check. I'll just take you through some of the pages and keep the
22 information pretty simple, so I think that will help matters a little
23 bit. If we look at this first page here, there's a name in -- well,
24 first of all, please tell us what this is.
25 A. This is declaration of receipt of the materials. This
1 declaration was prepared by our investigator on the -- from the Sarajevo
2 field office, in fact, from the Banja Luka field office. His name is
3 Finn Tollefsen. He's saying that he received 16 sealed and padlocked
4 boxes from Mr. Dragi Milosevic, who was at that time the head of police
5 administration, I believe, criminal police administration of
6 Republika Srpska. And --
7 Q. And -- sorry, go ahead.
8 A. And the material, the 16 sealed and padlocked boxes were received
9 by Finn Tollefsen on the 13th December 2004. And we have signature of
10 Dragi Milosevic and I believe this is handwriting of Finn Tollefsen.
11 Q. Okay. And when you say we have the signature of Dragi Milosevic,
12 can you tell the Trial Chamber who that person is, please.
13 A. As I told, he was the head of police -- criminal administration
14 of the police of Republika Srpska in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
15 Q. And when you say "police," is it fair to say we can also refer to
16 him as MUP?
17 A. Yes, we can refer to him as member of the Ministry of Interior
18 defence, a MUP member.
19 Q. And this, basically, two-day operation by the RS authorities to
20 recover these documents from Serbia
21 co-operative operation between the RS MUP and the RS army; is that fair
22 to say?
23 A. Yes, this is fair to say according to our information and the
24 information that we received from Ministry of Defence of -- and Ministry
25 of Interior of Republika Srpska. It was joint operation. In fact, the
1 members of Ministry of Defence, they received information where their
2 archive is stored, when they're supposed to take this archive, but
3 members of the Ministry of Interior, they facilitated the travel of this
4 documentation or transport of this documentation to Bosnia from
5 Gornji Milanovac.
6 Q. Okay. And again, I'll try to keep the questions a little
7 simpler, bearing in mind we only have the English version here. If we
8 look at the very bottom of the document, in the handwritten portion, we
9 see the initials "EOD" --
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. -- after the reference to the 16 boxes. What's "EOD," sir?
12 A. Finn refers here to Explosive Ordnance Devices team. It was not
13 NATO team or EUFOR team at that time who checked all the boxes for the
14 possible explosives placed in these boxes.
15 Q. And then we see a reference to the boxes being repacked into
16 24 other boxes. Can you just tell the Trial Chamber what that's about,
18 A. Yes, this is correct. Finn Tollefsen mentioned here that the
19 contents of 16 boxes were repacked into 24 cardboard boxes, but I would
20 say that this is not fully correct because in the meantime, on the
21 14th of December, 2004, Finn received also from Dragi Milosevic, from the
22 members of MUP of Republika Srpska, another box containing the
23 audio-tapes and videotapes seized by the Republika Srpska MUP in other
24 operation. But this -- the contents of these boxes, audio-tapes and
25 videotapes, has nothing to do with this Drina Corps collection. But also
1 I see Finn here also repacked this box to -- we can count, together with
2 the 16 boxes with Drina Corps collection, into 24 cardboard boxes.
3 Q. Okay. Let's turn to the next page, if we could, of this
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could -- is it perhaps possible for a better
6 understanding for the accused that the handwriting -- handwritten part at
7 the bottom of this page could be read out in English so that we have a
9 MR. THAYER: Certainly, Mr. President.
10 Q. Sir, if you would comply with His Honour's request, please.
11 A. "The 16 boxes were EOD'd on the 15th/16th December 2004 and
12 thereafter re-packed into 24 cardboard boxes."
13 "Banja Luka 16 December 2006," the name of Finn Tollefsen,
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are you sure that this is 2006?
16 THE WITNESS: Sorry, no, this is -- in fact, this is
17 16 December 2000
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Something.
19 THE WITNESS: 200, in fact. This is not clear here. This is
20 copy of the document, I think it could be the copy or --
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think in the second line at the beginning, we
22 have a reference to 2004.
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes. You're correct, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
25 Please carry on.
1 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 If we may just turn to the next page, please.
3 Q. And if you would, sir, and to pick up on His Honour's direction,
4 if you would just read what this is and perhaps just that first line
5 there into the record and just tell us what this document is.
6 A. This is statement of enclosure, and it's written here:
7 "I, hereby, certify that I received one sealed diplomatic
8 bags/container from ICTY Banja Luka."
9 Q. And -- sorry, go ahead.
10 A. And is receiving pouch officer Thomas E. Osorio is head of
11 UN ICTY Liaison Office in Zagreb, Croatia
12 17 December 2004
13 Q. And if we look down on the second lower half of the document,
14 there's some remarks and it indicates that on 17 December 2004, the
15 Zagreb Liaison Office received 24 cardboard boxes and that they were then
16 inspected and repacked into 57 boxes. Can you just tell the
17 Trial Chamber what that's all about.
18 A. Yes, when the boxes arrived to the Zagreb field office on the
19 17th December 2004, I was present at Zagreb field office at that time. I
20 already arrived to the Zagreb
21 27 -- into smaller boxes, in fact, because the boxes used to transport
22 for the documents were too heavy and were parting apart -- just was
23 falling apart. And during these two days, 17, 18, and I believe it was
24 19, we -- I checked personally the contents, roughly, the contents of the
25 documents of the boxes, and we repacked these 24 cardboard boxes which
1 arrived from the ICTY field office in Banja Luka, including the box
2 containing the tapes and audiotapes from other operation. And we
3 repacked the contents of these 24 cardboard boxes to another boxes,
4 27 boxes, which includes two boxes containing the tapes and audiotapes
5 seized by Republika Srpska MUP in other operation.
6 Q. Okay. Again, sir, just so the record is clear, you said they
7 were repacked into 27 boxes. Is that the correct number or is it a
8 different number?
9 A. No, this is 27 -- 57, sorry, I meant 57 boxes.
10 Q. Okay. If we may just turn the page quickly and we'll be done
11 with this document shortly. Can you just tell the Trial Chamber what
12 this document is, please, and we won't need to dwell too long on it.
13 A. This is kind of table we prepared during the repacking the
14 contents of the -- during the repacking the boxes which arrived from
15 Banja Luka field office into new 20 -- 57 boxes -- 55 boxes, in fact.
16 Q. Okay. And that's what I just wanted to ask you about. We have
17 at the top here, you see a reference to 23 big cardboard boxes and you
18 just talked about 24 boxes. Can you account for the difference, please.
19 A. Yes, because I'm referring here to the boxes containing the
20 documents from the Drina Corps collection. I didn't count the box of
21 audiotapes and videotapes seized by Republika Srpska MUP in different --
22 totally different operation.
23 Q. And if we just turn the page one more, please. We see the
24 number 55 in the middle of the page. What does that refer to?
25 A. This is referred to the boxes, "55 kutije." I think, B/C/S this
1 is "box" or "case."
2 Q. Okay.
3 MR. THAYER: And if we may have the next page, please. And you
4 know what, we can just skip this particular page and if we could have the
5 last page, please.
6 Q. What is this document, sir?
7 A. This is a packing list. In this packing list we have -- we have
8 description what was in transport which was provided from the Zagreb
9 field office to The Hague
10 documents from Banja Luka" and "evidence tapes from Banja Luka." And we
11 see here that it was 55, number 55, which means 55 boxes, and number
12 56/57 means boxes containing evidence tapes from Banja Luka.
13 Q. Okay.
14 MR. THAYER: May we have 65 ter 2033, please.
15 Q. We have a photograph here. What is it, sir, and who took it, if
16 you know.
17 A. Yes. This photograph was taken by my colleague from the field
18 office from Banja Luka, by Finn Tollefsen, in describe -- depicting here
19 one of the boxes seized or received in Gornji Milanovac. And the
20 documents which probably were in this box, this crate.
21 Q. And were you there while this photograph was taken, sir?
22 A. No. This photograph was taken in Banja -- in our Banja Luka
23 field office, but I was not present. But later on we received the CD
24 containing about 30 photographs from Finn Tollefsen.
25 Q. Okay.
1 MR. THAYER: And if we may have 65 ter 2032, please.
2 Q. And again, same three questions: What is it and who took it and
3 were you there?
4 A. Yeah, this is one of the photos taken by Finn Tollefsen in
5 Banja Luka field office, and we see here one of the boxes used for
6 transporting of the documents. And -- yes.
7 Q. Okay. And were you there?
8 A. No, I was not present there.
9 Q. Okay. Let's take a look at some of the documents which were
10 generated by the Republika Srpska and by the Serbian government in 2004
11 and 2005 in connection with this operation.
12 MR. THAYER: And if we may start with 2029, please.
13 Q. What we have here is a Republika Srpska MUP document dated
14 20 December 2004
15 Banja Luka, the subject being the VRS Main Staff archives. And again,
16 first of all there's a reference here to the Main Staff archives.
17 Did your investigation disclose whether this collection was a
18 Main Staff archive or some other archive?
19 A. If we look at the contents of the documents seized at that time
20 and after analysis of these documents, we see that this is not Main Staff
21 collection, this is Drina Corps collection and documents regarding the
22 units subordinated to the Drina Corps.
23 Q. And just focusing on the first paragraph of this document,
24 there's a reference here, and I quote:
25 "... the Republika Srpska minister of interior, through his
1 previous official contacts with the SMN Ministry of Defence and the head
2 of the General Staff of SMN army, initiated and intensified delivery of
3 mentioned archives ..."
4 And it refers up above to the VRS Main Staff and Drina Corps
5 archives. First of all, what's "SMN" stand for, those three initials?
6 A. It means Serbia
7 Q. Okay. And there's a reference here, as I just quoted, to
8 "previous official contacts." What did your investigation disclose or
9 learn about these previous official contacts?
10 A. We know from the -- from a few documents we received later on
11 from RS that the Ministry of Interior, delegation of the Ministry of
12 Interior had a few meetings in Serbia
13 during the meetings one of the subject of the, let's say, talks with
14 authorities of Serbia
15 the territory of Serbia
16 in Belgrade
17 Ministry of Interior, members of the Ministry of Interior of
18 Republika Srpska and Ministry of Defence of Serbia and I think between
19 also the people from the Main Staff of the Army of Serbia and Montenegro
20 at that time. And during this meeting in October 2004 has been decided
21 that if there is any archive exists on the territory of Serbia
22 be returned to Bosnia
24 Q. Okay. And if we just flip to, for example, page 3 of the
25 English, and that's also page 3 of the original Cyrillic, we see a lot of
1 black, redaction. Can you just tell the Trial Chamber what that's about,
3 A. Yes, we redacted this part of these documents because this part
4 had nothing -- is not related to the archive but is related to another
5 operation conducted by MUP and I believe by -- yes, mostly by MUP and, as
6 far as I remember, also by SFOR troops in co-operation with MUP in
7 relation to another operation.
8 Q. Okay.
9 THE INTERPRETER: The speakers are kindly requested to slow down
10 and pause between question and answer. Thank you.
11 THE WITNESS: I apologise.
12 MR. THAYER:
13 Q. Okay, sir. I'll try to slow down and pause.
14 MR. THAYER: If we may have 65 ter 2030, please.
15 Q. Okay. We have another MUP document, this one dated
16 10 January 2005
17 police administration. Can you just tell the Trial Chamber what this
18 document generally speaking is, please.
19 A. This document described the way how -- how Republika Srpska
20 authorities located and transported and received the Drina -- the
21 archive -- the war-time archive and transported this archive to
22 Banja Luka. They referring to the archive handed over to them on the
23 9th of -- on the 9 of December, 2004.
24 Q. Okay, and in general, does this cover the same information as the
25 document we just looked at?
1 A. Yes, this cover the same information we looked before.
2 Q. Okay.
3 MR. THAYER: Let's just flip to the last page, page 4 of the
4 English, please, and that is page 3 of the Cyrillic version.
5 Q. In the larger paragraph in the middle of this page there's a
6 reference to "... MUP members received this information from
7 representatives of the Ministry of Defence through their negotiation and
8 collaboration channels, the said representatives had made it possible for
9 the archives to be loaded and driven out of the barracks."
10 What does this reference to "negotiation and collaboration
11 channels" and "information" refer to, sir?
12 A. This information refers to the information I already -- to
13 information -- or to the events I already talk a few minutes before,
14 about the meeting which took place in October 2005 -- 2004, sorry, in
16 meeting were the members of the Ministry of Interior of Republika Srpska,
17 Ministry of Defence of Serbia
18 the Main
19 during this meeting there was discussion about the archive, but more
20 detailed information was received by the members of Ministry of Defence
21 of Republika Srpska from the Ministry of Defence and Army of Serbia
22 information whereabouts of the archive and they received the information
23 when and where exactly these archives should be collected by the
24 commission appointed by the Ministry of Defence of Republika Srpska.
25 Q. Okay. And is it -- is it fair to say then that there had been
1 information received prior to this meeting in October of 2004 through
2 these channels? Is that how it works, sir, and that information was then
3 brought up at this meeting? Or was the information disclosed for the
4 first time in the meeting, if you know?
5 A. I don't know that. I don't know.
6 Q. Okay.
7 MR. THAYER: Let's look at 65 ter 5427, please.
8 Q. We have here, sir, a document dated 7 of March, 2005, and it's
9 headed at the top "The Bosnia and Herzegovina Presidency, office number 2
10 for co-operation with the ICTY in The Hague." And it's -- this cover
11 letter is signed by Trivun Jovicic. Who was he, sir?
12 A. He was the ICTY liaison officer. He works for, of course, for
13 the Government of Republika Srpska, and he's liaison officer with ICTY.
14 Q. And this is enclosing a letter - and we'll just turn the page,
15 please, to the next page - and this is dated -- a letter dated
16 3 March 2005
18 A. This is response for our RFA. We asked authorities of
19 Republika Srpska some information regarding the collection itself, it
20 means how, when, and who participated in the movement of this collection
21 first from Bosnia
22 collected -- who participated -- I believe, who participated of -- how
23 the collection was returned to Bosnia
24 Q. Sir, and you referred to an RFA. What is an RFA?
25 A. This is Request For Assistance. Any time if you would like to
1 get any information from any of the governments or some institutions, we
2 are preparing the request for the assistance. And in this request we are
3 asking them to undertake the certain action or asking them for certain
5 Q. And on this document we have a reference to another case, the
6 Prosecutor versus Slobodan Milosevic. And what's that about, sir?
7 A. Yes. I see from the initials that this RFA had been prepared by
8 one of my colleagues who worked at that time for Milosevic case, and in
9 fact, this collection -- the documents from this collection were used not
10 only by Srebrenica teams but also by other teams.
11 MR. THAYER: Now, if we can go to page 3 of the English, please,
12 and that will be pages -- the bottom of page 2 of the B/C/S and then
13 continue on into page 3 - I'm sorry - of the Cyrillic. We see in this
14 response -- I'll just wait until we get page 2 of the Cyrillic up. And
15 at the bottom of -- yeah, the bottom of that page, going up to page 3 of
16 the Cyrillic.
17 Q. We have references here to information and findings by the
18 RS Ministry of Defence and the references to the archives being
19 transported in the spring of 1998. And we see here a reference to the
20 transport and hand-over of the archived material, again this is referring
21 to the spring of 1998, was done by Sergeant Nebojsa Vukicevic.
22 Who was that person, sir?
23 A. This person was the member of the Army of Republika Srpska. He
24 was responsible for the archive. He is the person -- I referred to this
25 person some time ago when I talked about the information we received
1 regarding the whereabouts of this archive between 1996 and 1998.
2 Q. And we see further down that there's a reference to
3 Lieutenant-Colonel Dragan Obrenovic. And what does he have to do with
4 this operation, according to the information that you received?
5 A. According to information I received, and there were two sources,
6 in fact, they were information from Dragan [sic] Vukicevic and another
7 information from the protected witness which was -- which name was
8 mentioned in private session, that the archive, the first half
9 spring 1998, was transported to Zvornik and to Mali Zvornik -- and then
10 to Mali Zvornik and was located in the facilities of Army of Serbia and
12 the transportation was led personally by the commander of the
13 503rd Motorised Brigade, Colonel Dragan Obrenovic. But we know from the
14 protected witness that Dragan Obrenovic, in fact, facilitated the
15 transport of this archive, in fact, the passage of this archive through
16 the border. Because, as we know, Mali Zvornik is located in Serbia
17 across the river, Drina
18 of this archive, the bus, the truck who arrived with the archive,
19 together with -- escorted by Sergeant Nebojsa Vukicevic and -- yes, and
20 he helped them to pass the border and to facilitate them to locate this
21 archive in Mali Zvornik. And from my -- our investigation we know that
22 Nebojsa Vukicevic was assisted also by Dragan Savic. He was assistant
23 commander for the security of the 503rd Motorised Brigade.
24 Q. And, sir, we've -- you've just mentioned the 503rd Motorised
25 Brigade. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what relationship, if any, there
1 is between the Zvornik Brigade and the 503rd Motorised Brigade.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before you do that, I would like to take you back
3 to page 28 of the transcript, line 15. You mentioned the name
4 Dragan Vukicevic. Are you sure that you combined the first and the
5 second name correctly?
6 THE WITNESS: No, of course, I meant Nebojsa Vukicevic.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
8 THE WITNESS: Sorry, may I have a transcript on my --
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It disappeared from the screen.
10 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. I think that --
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That it's clarified now.
12 MR. THAYER: Yeah. Thank you, sir.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Do you recall the question of Mr. Thayer?
14 THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the question, please.
15 MR. THAYER:
16 Q. Sure. What is the relationship, if any, between the
17 Zvornik Brigade and the 503rd Motorised Brigade?
18 A. After reconstructing the Army of Republika Srpska, the
19 Zvornik Brigade was disbanded and in this place was created
20 503rd Motorised Brigade.
21 Q. And when approximately would this have happened?
22 A. I believe it happened after the Dayton Agreement, in 1996.
23 Q. Okay.
24 MR. THAYER: If we may turn the page in English to page 4, and I
25 think we can stay on page 3 of -- or, yeah, page 3 of the Cyrillic.
1 Q. We see the top three paragraphs here and they refer to a meeting
2 on 15 October 2004
4 A. This is about the meeting I referred before when -- meeting
5 between Ministry of Interior delegation of Republika Srpska, regarding
6 the meetings with representative of the Army of Serbia and Montenegro
7 representative of the Ministry of Interior of Republic of Serbia
8 this meeting, as we see here in this document, was discussed also the
9 issue about archive.
10 Q. Okay.
11 MR. THAYER: We're done with that document. May we see
12 65 ter 6220, please.
13 And if we could go to page 2 of the English. We can stay where
14 we are on the Cyrillic, but if we could just go to page 2 so we can see
15 where the -- what the source of this document is in the English
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm afraid it's not the same page in Cyrillic and
18 in English.
19 MR. THAYER: You're absolutely right, Mr. President. If we could
20 have the second page of the Cyrillic, please, and that will have -- that
21 will bear the date.
22 Q. This -- can you just tell the Trial Chamber, please, what this
23 document is.
24 A. This is also response for our RFA, but we directed this RFA to
25 the Government of Serbia and Montenegro
1 the Drina Corps archive, how, when, who participated in the movement of
2 this archive from Bosnia
3 these type of the questions.
4 Q. And in general, how did this response correspond or not with the
5 response that the OTP received from the authorities in the
6 Republika Srpska?
7 A. The information -- yeah, this is -- if we look at information we
8 receive of -- from Republika Srpska, it more or less the same
9 information, that the archive was transferred from Bosnia and Herzegovina
10 to Mali
11 information we received from authorities of Serbia and Montenegro
12 done without knowledge of the supervising officers of these particular
14 Q. And when you say "units," you mean units of Republika Srpska or
15 units of Serbia
16 A. I mean units of Serbia
17 Q. And just one last question on this document. If we look at the
18 very top of the English, there's a reference again to a meeting on
19 15 October 2004
20 talking about and that we've seen - and I'll try to slow down,
21 sorry - and that we've seen in some of the other documents, sir?
22 A. Yes, this is the same meeting I referred before and also the same
23 meeting which was described in the document received from
24 Republika Srpska.
25 Q. Now, you referred in your earlier testimony to a statement being
1 provided by this individual by the name of Nebojsa Vukicevic. Again, to
2 whom did he give his statement, sir?
3 A. He -- Nebojsa Vukicevic, he gave a statement to the commission
4 created by the army -- by authorities of Republika Srpska,
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, but also one of our investigators met
6 Nebojsa Vukicevic in some stage. During this meeting he had confirmed
7 his statement given to the authorities of Republika Srpska regarding the
8 archive, movement of the archive.
9 MR. THAYER: And if we may have 65 ter 2158, please.
10 Q. What is this, sir?
11 A. This is statement of Nebojsa Vukicevic I referred before -- to
12 which I referred before. It was given to the authorities -- to the
13 commission of Republika Srpska. And also in this statement he describing
14 the movement of Drina Corps archive between the period of 1996 up to
16 MR. THAYER: If we may go to page 2 of the English, please, and
17 page 2 of the Cyrillic as well.
18 Q. There's a reference here to General Krstic on April 7th of --
19 well, General Krstic ordering the removal of certain documents which was
20 carried out on the 7th of April, 1996.
21 What do you know about this, sir?
22 A. This -- I -- sorry. I know, according to this statement we
23 received this information also through -- from Nebojsa Vukicevic, that
24 General Krstic took out few documents from the collection, from
25 Drina Corps collection. It was documents of the Krivaja 95 and document
1 with the code-names Spreca 95. This is operation regarding Srebrenica.
2 Q. Now, I think you referred earlier in your testimony to members of
3 the Krstic Defence team having access to the archives, if my memory
4 serves. You referred at some point to that. Is that what this is
5 referring to or is that a different occasion when people had access to
6 the archives?
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Tolimir's microphone be turned off,
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, could you please switch off your
10 microphone. Thank you.
11 MR. THAYER:
12 Q. I'll repeat the question. This reference here to documents being
13 removed upon General Krstic's order in April of 1996, is that the same
14 occasion that you referred to earlier, I believe, with respect to members
15 of General Krstic's Defence team having access to the Drina Corps or is
16 it different?
17 A. I refer to different documents. I saw different documents.
18 Q. Okay.
19 MR. THAYER: Let's look at one more document before the break,
20 please, 65 ter 2170.
21 Q. I think we only have an English version of this document,
22 unfortunately, but I'll just ask you a general question about it. What
23 is this, sir?
24 A. This is receipt of the material we received from the Defence of
25 General Radislav Krstic. The receipt was issued on the
1 19th February 2000
2 in fact, copy of the documents which we received -- I mean, OTP received
3 from the Defence of General Radislav Krstic.
4 Q. Okay. And when we come back from the break, I'll ask you some
5 follow-up questions about that document, sir.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, you have shown us a series of
7 documents. I just would like to know if you are tendering them.
8 MR. THAYER: Yes, Mr. President. I thought I'd save that until
9 the end of the exercise and then just race through them.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Okay. Thank you very much.
11 We must have our first break now. We adjourn and resume at
13 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. Thayer, please carry on.
16 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 I don't know if we still have 2170 up on the screen. If not, can
18 we have 2170, please.
19 Q. Before the break, sir, you told us that this is a receipt for
20 documents that were given to the OTP by the Krstic Defence team. What I
21 want to do is show you copies of some of the documents, just three
22 actually, that are listed on this receipt. And the first one I want to
23 show you is the document at number 4, and I'll just read it into the
24 record. It says that it's a Main Staff VRS, order number 03/4-1670 from
25 17 July 1995
1 MR. THAYER: And what I'd like to do and ask the assistance of
2 the court staff in this is show two B/C/S originals side by side in
3 e-court. We don't need the English translations because I won't be going
4 into the substance of the documents. I merely want to be able to show
5 the witness different copies of the same document which we have in
7 So if we could have 65 ter 778 and 65 ter 2173 side by side in
8 e-court, please.
9 Q. Okay. We see here we have two documents bearing the report
10 number or strictly confidential number, as it's translated, 03/4-1670,
11 that's the report number that we just saw on the receipt. Can you tell
12 the Trial Chamber, please, without going into what the substance of these
13 documents are, just can you tell them about what the source of either of
14 these documents is.
15 A. The contents of these documents -- in fact, this is one original
16 and another copy of the original of this document. But looking at the
17 ERN number of the documents on my screen, on the right side, starting
18 with 0425, I see this is document from the Drina Corps collection, the
19 document on the right side from my screen. And I believe this is the
20 original. And that one on the left side, it should be copy of the
21 document from the right side.
22 Q. And how can you tell by looking at the ERN that this is a
23 document from the Drina Corps?
24 A. Because I know, I am aware, about the range of Drina Corps
25 collection. The range started from our number, Evidence Registration
1 Number, from 0425, 00, onwards. We should keep in mind that there were
2 about 315.000 pages.
3 Q. Okay. And you just told us that you believe that the Drina Corps
4 document on the right is the original and that the one on the left which
5 is --
6 MR. THAYER: And if we can just scroll down a little bit on the
7 one on the left, please, I think there should be an ERN at the top. I'm
8 sorry, scroll the other way.
9 Q. The one on the left bearing ERN 00917857, what was the source of
10 this document, sir, this copy of the original?
11 A. I seen description of this document on the previous evidence
12 document under the point 4.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. And I believe this is document -- the copy of the document we
15 received from Krstic Defence. But here regarding the document from
16 Drina Corps collection, of course, I am -- right now I am guessing that
17 this is original document but I am pretty sure. But I think it is quite
18 easy to check it, just getting this document out from evidence vault.
19 Q. Okay. And when you say "original document," what do you mean,
21 A. I mean document prepared by the men or people who just issued
22 this document or just prepared this document, and it was done on the time
23 when document was prepared was done.
24 Q. Okay. So by what you just said, does the Drina Corps collection
25 then also include some copies of documents as well as originals of
2 A. In this collection there are so many pages that it's possible
3 that there were copies also.
4 Q. Okay. And when you say "copies," are you referring to
5 photocopies or different versions of the same document that were received
6 by other units who were receiving or who had -- who had been the
7 recipients of -- let me just stop and start over again.
8 When you say "copies," sir, do you mean photocopies or multiple
9 copies of the same document which were distributed to numerous
10 recipients, or both, or something else? If you could explain, please.
11 A. I mean both version. It could be that photocopies but also the
12 multiple copies of the same documents which was sent or resent to various
13 units of the Drina Corps.
14 Q. Okay. And I think we may see some examples of that shortly.
15 MR. THAYER: Let's look at and do the same side-by-side
16 comparison, please, with 65 ter numbers 2172 and 2171, please. Okay.
17 Thank you for blowing that up.
18 Q. We have here two documents which bear the strictly confidential
19 number 04/156-9.
20 Can you tell us anything about the source of these two documents?
21 A. As we see on the screen, the document on the right side with
22 ERN number stamp on this document 04367235, this is the range of the
23 Drina Corps collection. And this is -- I believe this is original
24 document. And the document on the left side of the screen, this is copy
25 of the same document we have on the right side. I saw previously the
1 ERN number. I believe this is also document -- I mean, the copy of that
2 document we received from Krstic Defence.
3 Q. And just for the record, the document on the left bears
4 ERN 00917861.
5 MR. THAYER: Let's do the same exercise with just one more set of
6 documents. If we may have 65 ter 2174 and 1982 side by side, please.
7 Q. We have here two documents which bear the strictly confidential
8 numbers of 03/156-11.
9 What can you tell us about the sources of these documents, sir?
10 A. The same, but right now the document on the left side of my
11 screen with ERN number 04312743, this is Drina Corps collection document,
12 and I believe this is original. And on the right side this is the copy
13 of the document from Drina Corps collection, the same document but the
14 copy, having ERN 00917878 or 9, I don't see clearly.
15 Q. Okay. If we just go to page 2 of 65 ter 1982, we'll see what the
16 ERN is there. And we see that page 2 bears the ERN of 00917879. And
17 again, sir, just to move things along, this version, was this one of the
18 documents that was provided to the OTP by the Krstic Defence?
19 A. Yes, yes. I believe this is document -- the copy of the document
20 provided to OTP by Krstic Defence.
21 Q. Okay. We're done talking about the documents that appeared on
22 that receipt from the Krstic Defence. Let's look at some other examples
23 of some other documents.
24 MR. THAYER: May we have 65 ter 2023 on the screen, please, and
25 4047B, side by side.
1 Q. Okay. We have two documents, both bearing the strictly
2 confidential number 04-520-54/95. And we can see that both documents
3 have the first four numbers 0425 as part of their ERN.
4 What can you tell us about these documents, sir?
5 A. I can tell that both documents are coming from the same
6 collection, from Drina Corps collection, looking at the ERN numbers of
7 these documents. And I can say that the document from the left side, at
8 least that one, was in the possession of Rogatica Brigade because on the
9 top right corner of this document I see the signature of Ziza. Ziza,
10 this is communication officer from Rogatica Brigade. We interview him
11 and he recognised his handwriting of this document.
12 Q. And that may -- well, I believe that that is written in Cyrillic,
13 so if you could just identify where on the document that is. Is it right
14 underneath the number, sir?
15 A. Yeah, it's just underneath the number.
16 Q. And what's the number?
17 A. In Cyrillic. 1726.
18 Q. Okay. And if we look at the document on the right, 65 ter 4047B,
19 is there a stamp on the lower right-hand corner and what does that stamp
20 signify, sir?
21 A. This is the stamp of the command of 5th Mixed Artillery "Puk," I
22 think. In B/C/S, of course. This is information that this document was
23 received on the 15th July 1995.
24 Q. And that would be received by that unit that you just referred
25 to; is that correct, sir?
1 A. Yes, it is correct.
2 Q. Okay.
3 MR. THAYER: Let's look at two more documents with the same
4 strictly confidential number, the same, those are 65 ter 4047C and 65 ter
5 125, please.
6 Q. Now, we see a stamp on the document on the right, and it's at the
7 bottom left-hand corner of 65 ter 125. Can you tell us about that stamp,
8 please. Can you read it or do you need it blown up?
9 A. Would it be possible, please?
10 MR. THAYER: If we could blow up, there's a stamp at the far left
11 corner. Perfect. Thank you.
12 THE WITNESS: Okay. This is a stamp of the command of the
13 Zvornik Light Infantry Brigade, saying us that this document had been
14 received by the Zvornik Brigade on the 14th of July, 1995.
15 MR. THAYER:
16 Q. Okay. Now, let's just take a look at the typesetting on these
17 two documents. It appears, for example, on the document on the left,
18 4047C, we have almost everything in capitals, and then on the right we
19 have almost everything in small-case letters. Can you just explain and
20 account for why the same document has different -- different lettering or
21 casing or appearance even though it's the same document.
22 A. It's visible that this document was sent to various units,
23 including the command of the Zvornik Brigade, and probably
24 Zvornik Brigade they had different type of machine that they received
25 this document. It was typed in this way. But on the left side we see --
1 I don't know which unit received this document, but also type -- yeah,
2 this is visible that they were different type of teleprinter or other
3 machine used to receive these dispatches.
4 Q. Okay. And --
5 MR. THAYER: Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Nyambe.
7 JUDGE NYAMBE: Are you -- for the witness. My question is for
8 the witness.
9 Are these two documents one a copy of the other?
10 THE WITNESS: I believe, Your Honour, that this is multiple copy.
11 It's not exactly copy, but this is document sent from Main Staff -- or
12 sent from the 1st Podrinje Brigade to various units. The first was
13 Zvornik Brigade, another one was -- I don't know which one.
14 JUDGE NYAMBE: Okay. Thank you.
15 MR. THAYER:
16 Q. And --
17 A. Or -- may I, Your Honour?
18 JUDGE NYAMBE: Yes.
19 THE WITNESS: But it's possible that this document, because I
20 don't see the stamp at the bottom of this document, was typed in the
21 Zvornik -- or in the Podrinje Brigade.
22 MR. THAYER:
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. And then resent to the various units of the Drina Corps units.
25 MR. THAYER: And let me just follow-up on Judge Nyambe's question
1 if I could and we will have other more technical witnesses who will be
2 able to explain this whole process.
3 Q. But, sir, just basically, can you explain how documents are
4 transmitted from one unit, say a subordinate unit, out to the -- I'm
5 sorry, a superior unit out to the subordinate units and how that would
6 explain different copies of the same documents having a slightly
7 different appearance even though it's the same document. If you can just
8 explain, based on your knowledge, how that works and why we see the same
9 document looking a little different when it's received by other units.
10 A. Transferring documents to the various units, it could be done in
11 various ways, in fact. It could be done through the telephone, through
12 the secure line, and this is why -- for example, the documents is
13 dictated on the phone to the operator in other unit who's supposed to
14 receive this document, and operator is typing out the contents of the
15 document. The recipient also can receive document on the teleprinter,
16 which is used by this particular unit. It's more or less the same. And
17 this is why we have various type of letters in these documents.
18 Q. So if a communications officer in the Zvornik Brigade is
19 receiving the same document that somebody in the Vlasenica Brigade might
20 be receiving, they'll look different because their respective machines
21 that are typing these things out for them as they're coming in might just
22 have different type-face settings or something like that. Is that fair
23 to say?
24 A. Yes, yes, exactly.
25 Q. Now, how were these -- well, let me just ask it this way. Were
1 there, to your knowledge, means or mechanisms by which these
2 communications were encoded or encrypted? And I don't want to get into
3 an in-depth analysis because we'll have other people, but just can you
4 tell the Trial Chamber whether that was done; and if you know, just
5 basically how that was done.
6 A. Some messages can be encrypted, of course, but if -- in this way
7 that another unit should have the device, with encrypted device, in fact,
8 who could decrypt the receiving document.
9 Q. And to your knowledge, in July, for example, of 1995, did various
10 VRS units also have just basic fax capability as well?
11 A. Yes, they have the basic fax capability as well and they have
12 also communication line, I mean telephone line. They may use these
13 communication telephone lines. It could be civilian lines or it could be
14 military lines.
15 Q. Okay. Let's move through some other examples, sir.
16 MR. THAYER: May we have 65 ter 182 and 4046B, Bravo, side by
17 side, please.
18 Q. Okay. We have two documents, each bearing the strictly
19 confidential number 04-520-53/95.
20 What can you tell us about these two documents, sir, and their
22 A. These two documents are coming from the same collection, from
23 Drina Corps collection, looking at their ERN numbers. And also I notice
24 on the document on the left side with ERN number 04258575, the initials
25 of Ziza, the communication officer from Rogatica Brigade.
1 Q. And again, just to move things along, that's underneath the
2 number 1726; is that correct?
3 A. I don't see the number now.
4 Q. Oh, I'm sorry.
5 MR. THAYER: We need to scroll down a little bit on the other --
6 on the document on the left, please. On the document on the left we need
7 to just scroll down a little bit.
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, correct, this is under the number 1726.
9 MR. THAYER:
10 Q. Okay. Now, I'd like to direct your attention to the lower
11 right-hand corners of each of these documents, and just generally, what
12 do you see there? What does that in your experience -- what do those
13 markings represent?
14 A. Which one?
15 Q. On both. We see -- we see handwriting and numbers on the lower
16 right-hand corners of both documents, and what are those?
17 A. The handwritings we see on the -- this document on the right side
18 with ERN number 04258627, we see that this document was received by
19 particular unit on the 14 July 1995
20 number of the document. And signature of the person who received this
21 document. On the left corner in the bottom, we have initials of the man
22 who prepared, who typed out, this document I believe, it's D.ZZ. I think
23 it could be initials of this communication officer from the
24 Rogatica Brigade, Desimir Zizovic. They called him Ziza.
25 Q. Okay.
1 MR. THAYER: May we see 65 ter number 180 side by side with
2 65 ter 4043B, please. And we have two documents bearing strictly
3 confidential number 04-520-52.
4 Q. What can you tell us about the sources of these two documents?
5 MR. THAYER: And if we can scroll down just a little bit on the
6 one on the right, please, so we can catch the ERN at the top. Thank you.
7 THE WITNESS: Okay. I see from ERN number that this is -- that
8 these two documents are coming from different sources. The first one,
9 that one on the left side with ERN number 04258572, comes from Drina
10 Corps collection. The one on the right on my screen with ERN 05296337, I
11 think that this document comes from Banja Luka VRS archive collection.
12 And also looking at the first document with the initials of Ziza and on
13 the top right corner of this document and initials on the bottom on the
14 left D.ZZ., I believe this document was prepared by Desimir Zizovic from
15 Rogatica Brigade and was sent from Rogatica Brigade to various units of
17 with ERN number 05296337, I don't see clearly the stamp here, but if I --
18 MR. THAYER: If we can scroll up just a little. I don't know if
19 there's any more information on that.
20 THE WITNESS: I don't see clearly which unit received this
21 document, but it's visible that it was received from the 14th July,
22 approximately about 1600 hours.
23 MR. THAYER:
24 Q. Okay.
25 MR. THAYER: Let's look at 65 ter 2025 and 4048B side by side. I
1 think everybody will be happy to know we're coming towards the end of
2 this particular exercise. Just a couple more examples. Okay.
3 We have two documents bearing strictly confidential numbers
5 Q. What can you tell us about these two documents?
6 A. These two documents were sent -- I mean that they are coming from
7 the same collection, from Drina Corps collection. And I see the document
8 from the left side -- I would say that it would be document prepared by
9 teleprinter operator in Rogatica Brigade and sent from Rogatica Brigade
10 to other units of Drina Corps -- I mean, it was directed to the sector
11 for intelligence and security, Main Staff, and Drina Corps, and IKM of
13 Regiment. And also, on the top right corner, I see the initials or
14 signature of Ziza, the communications officer from the Rogatica Brigade.
15 Under the -- these initials are in Cyrillic under the number 1729.
16 Q. Okay. I'm sorry, go ahead.
17 A. And we see that the same document was received by another unit,
18 but I cannot recognise by which one. I cannot recognise the signature.
19 But I am talking about document with ERN number 04258628. It was
20 received by this unit on the 14th July 1995 at 2045.
21 Q. Now, just to pick up on what you said a moment ago, sir, let's
22 look at the upper left-hand corner of either of these documents, and we
23 see the words "KOMANDA 1. PLP
24 What does that stand for? What does that mean?
25 A. This is the command of the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade,
1 it's Rogatica Brigade.
2 Q. Okay. And when we see this heading with the name of the brigade
3 and then the strictly confidential number underneath and then the date
4 underneath that, we see "dana" and then the date of 14 July 1995, when we
5 see that heading, what does that tell us about what the source of this
6 document is? What does that tell us about who is sending the document?
7 And if that question didn't make any sense to you, sir, and I can
8 understand if it didn't, I'll rephrase it.
9 A. Yes, please --
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. And you are referring to "dana." I don't see this.
12 Q. Okay. Let's look at the document on the left, 65 ter 2025, with
13 the ERN 04258576. You told us a few moments ago that this document was
14 sent out to the Main Staff sector for intelligence and security and the
15 Drina Corps security organ and the Drina Corps forward command post. How
16 can you tell by looking at the top of this document who's sending the
17 document and who's receiving the document? How can you tell that from
18 looking at one of these VRS documents?
19 A. We see on the left top corner this is the name of the unit which
20 was from where the document was sent. And then we have listed the names
21 of the units which should receive the particular document.
22 Q. Okay. So --
23 A. And --
24 Q. Go ahead.
25 A. And looking at this document, on the bottom of this document is
1 handwriting here, "predato" [phoen], which means "sent," according to my
2 knowledge of B/C/S, of course.
3 Q. Okay. So when we look at this document and we see at the top,
4 and you've told us that "KOMANDA 1. PLP BR" means "command of the
5 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade," otherwise known as the Rogatica
6 Brigade, is that the sender or the recipient of the document?
7 A. This is a sender.
8 Q. Okay. So that's the unit from which the document is being sent,
9 and underneath it we have the names of the recipients; is that correct?
10 A. It's correct.
11 Q. Just two more examples.
12 MR. THAYER: 4069, please, and 4069B side by side. That will be
13 4069A and 4069B, please.
14 Q. Okay. We've got two documents bearing strictly confidential
15 number 18-250-1/1. And we can see a date of 28 July 1995. Again, this
16 is the command of the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade.
17 What can you tell us about these two documents, sir?
18 A. These two documents coming from the same collection, from Drina
19 Corps collection. The document on the right side of my screen with
20 ERN number 04258567, it was -- it is document which was sent -- prepared
21 by sender, in fact. It was sent to Main Staff, to IKM Drina Corps, and
22 security organs of Drina Corps. And we see also on this document that
23 this document was sent at 1530 hours, and we have initials of Ziza on the
24 top right corner, under the number 1885. This is -- they are initials of
25 or nickname of one of the communications officer from the
1 Rogatica Brigade.
2 And looking at the document with ERN number 04365051 we see,
3 looking at the handwritings on the bottom of these documents, we see that
4 these document was received on 28th July 1995, at 1715. And I cannot
5 recognise the signature or initials of the man who signed it.
6 Q. Okay. Let's just focus for a minute on the document on the right
7 ending with ERN 04258567, just to get us used to some of the B/C/S
8 abbreviations that we're going to be seeing a lot of in the future. On
9 the recipient lines on this document we see the letters "GSS VRS SEKTOR
10 ZA OBP."
11 What does that tell us about who that recipient is?
12 A. This is Main Staff of Army of Republika Srpska, sector for
13 security and intelligence, or intelligence of security.
14 Q. Okay. And when we have -- in that -- if I'm not mistaken, the
15 "GSS" stands for "Glavni Stab"; is that correct?
16 A. That's correct. This is B/C/S word or Serbian word of
17 Main Staff.
18 Q. Okay. So when we see two S's like that, next to each other,
19 that's for the "sh" in Stab?
20 A. Yeah, probably.
21 Q. Now, the next recipient is the "IKM DRINSKOS KORPUSA."
22 A. This "IKM," this is "forward command post," abbreviation of the
23 "forward command post" but, of course, in Serbian language.
24 MR. THAYER: Let's look at two more documents, 65 ter 179 and
25 4072B, as in Bravo, please.
1 Q. Okay. We have two documents bearing strictly confidential number
2 12/45-975, dated 29 of July, 1995. What can you tell us about who is
3 sending this document, just based on the heading? And I don't want to
4 ask you about the substance of the document, but where is this being sent
6 A. The sender of this document is Main Staff of the Army of
7 Republika Srpska, Glavni Stab VRS, and sector for intelligence. And
8 looking at the serial number, this is sector for intelligence.
9 Q. Okay. And we see -- on the first line of the recipient we see
10 the abbreviations "IKM DK," again. What's that?
11 A. It's forward command post of the Drina Corps on the hands of
12 General Krstic.
13 Q. Okay. The -- we see the letters N/L. Do you know what that
14 stands for?
15 A. I think it's for General Krstic.
16 Q. Okay. That's "na licnost"; is that correct?
17 A. "Na licnost," yes.
18 Q. Okay. Is that also -- does that mean personally to be delivered,
19 is that what you mean?
20 A. Yeah, yeah. It means this way, personally to be delivered to
21 General Krstic.
22 Q. Okay. Now, what can you tell us about the source of these
24 A. Both of these documents are coming from Drina Corps collection,
25 and I see on the list of the recipients also the command of the
1 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade, called Rogatica Brigade, and I
2 talking about document with ERN number 04258566 --
3 MR. THAYER: Okay, can we just scroll up just a touch on that
4 document so we can catch the very top of that document. Okay. Thank
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, on the top of the right corner of this
7 document, I see that this document was received at 2.45, on the
8 30th of July, 1995, it's in B/C/S, in Cyrillic, and I also recognise the
9 signature of communications officer from Rogatica Brigade,
10 Danko Gojkovic. He testified in the previous trial and he's our witness.
11 And he recognised his signature.
12 Q. Okay. And have you personally met Mr. Gojkovic, sir?
13 A. Yes. I met him, but I think it was 2006 when we interviewed him,
14 and then when he came to testify to The Hague.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. And maybe one or two more occasions, but roughly.
17 Q. Okay.
18 MR. THAYER: Let's look at 65 ter 185, please.
19 Q. Now, on this document if we can -- well, what can you tell us
20 about this document, sir?
21 A. This is also document from Drina Corps collection. These
22 documents, in fact, were sent from Rogatica Brigade, as far as I know. I
23 know it from communication officer from the -- from Rogatica Brigade,
24 from Danko Gojkovic, whose signature is seen here also at this document,
25 at the bottom of this document on the left side, in the left corner. And
1 is saying here that this document was sent at 1510 hours. I don't think
2 entire handwriting's here.
3 Q. Okay. And looking at the top of the document where it says:
4 "IKM 65. ZMTP."
5 "Borike," and we see the number "1400," what does that tell you
6 based on your investigation and reading this document?
7 A. It is abbreviation of forward command post of
8 65th Protection Regiment. It was located in Borike, the village about
9 14, 15 kilometres, about 20 kilometres from Rogatica.
10 Q. Okay. So when you said a moment ago that this was sent from the
11 Rogatica Brigade, where do you mean from when you say "Rogatica Brigade"?
12 A. I mean from communication room of Rogatica Brigade. But
13 referring to the testimony and to the statement of Danko Gojkovic, he
14 told us that he doesn't remember exactly how he received this document.
15 It could be through the courier or through the telephone. It was typed
16 later on and he just transferred this document to the listed recipients
17 from this document. But he sent it from Rogatica Brigade itself, but
18 document was created, according to the title, at the
19 65th Protection Regiment forward command post in Borike.
20 Q. Okay. And as I said, Mr. Gojkovic has been listed as a proposed
21 witness in this case, Witness number 134, and I think actually he's been
22 recently proposed to change from a 92 bis witness to a 92 ter witness.
23 So that pleasure is yet to come for the Chamber, just to give a little
24 background to that.
25 Can we see who the recipients are for this document?
1 A. They are commander of the Main Staff of Republika Srpska, for his
2 information; assistant commander for the morale, religious, and legal
3 affairs for the Main Staff of Republika Srpska; and commander of the
4 military police battalion of the 65th Motorised Brigade -- Protection
6 Q. Okay. And just -- can we just put some names to those three
8 A. The commander of the Main Staff of the Republika Srpska is
9 General Mladic; the assistant commander for the morale, religious, and
10 legal affairs of the Main Staff of Republika Srpska is General Gvero; I'm
11 not sure about the commander of the military police battalion of the
12 65th Protection Regiment.
13 Q. Okay. We'll be hearing about that person at some point anyway.
14 It's okay.
15 Now, this document that we're looking at right now, when was the
16 first time you saw this document?
17 A. I remember this document very clear. First time I saw this
18 document in Zagreb
19 which arrived to Zagreb
20 documents from the small binder. We called it "Atlantida," the binder,
21 because on the cover page of this binder it was the word of "Atlantida,"
22 and I remember this document from this binder.
23 Q. Okay.
24 MR. THAYER: With Madam Usher's assistance, I just ask that this
25 bundle of documents be handed to the witness, and I'll ask him a couple
1 of final questions about it.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, please. But could you indicate which kind
3 of documents these are.
4 MR. THAYER: Yes.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If you would do that.
6 MR. THAYER: Yes, Mr. President.
7 Q. Sir, would you kindly remove the first item and --
8 MR. THAYER: Madam Usher, we'll need your further assistance with
9 the ELMO, please. Thanks.
10 Q. Just remove that first item from the folder and, if you would,
11 place it on the ELMO. Perfect. Okay.
12 What is this?
13 A. This is the cover page of the binder I referred just a few
14 seconds before.
15 Q. Okay. And when you say "binder," what kind of thing are we
16 talking about?
17 A. I'm talking about few documents clipped together, and this is the
18 cover page of this --
19 Q. Okay --
20 A. -- this set of the documents.
21 Q. And we can see two holes in this document, so is it fair to say
22 this was a two-hole-punch, bound binder of documents; is that what it
24 A. Yes, it's correct. Now this is different shape because I see
25 that the binder was divided for each document has separate folder.
1 Q. Okay. So what can you tell us -- well, you've already told us
2 this is from the Drina Corps collection and it's got an ERN of 04258544,
3 for the record.
4 I'll just ask you to replace that cardboard cover back in the
5 folder, please.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the whole page be displayed. I
8 would like to know whether there is anything hidden in the top part of
9 the cover page. Can we see the whole page, not just one part of it. The
10 top part is missing from the display. Can you scroll the document down,
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
13 Please carry on.
14 MR. THAYER: Okay.
15 Q. If you would replace that, please, sir.
16 MR. THAYER: And just for the record, we just saw the word
17 "telegram" on the top of that document. What does that mean based on
18 your investigation? What is a telegram and what can that refer to?
19 A. The dispatch is telegram.
20 Q. Okay. Now, I'd ask you to go to the end of that group of
21 folders, and I think there should be ERN ending in 8580 there. Is that
22 correct? And if you would, put that on the ELMO, please.
23 And what is this, sir?
24 A. This is a document we saw just a while before. This is a
25 document sent by Danko Gojkovic, created at the IKM of 65th Protection
1 Regiment in Borike, and sent from Rogatica Brigade.
2 Q. Okay. And when you first saw this document, in what condition
3 was it or how was it -- how was it packaged or otherwise held together?
4 A. As I told, this document and other documents from this pile were
5 clipped together, they created -- they were kind of the binder. And the
6 first page we saw just two minutes ago, it was the first page, the cover
7 page of this binder.
8 Q. And is it fair to say this was the last page of the binder?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. Sir, thank you for taking us through that exercise, and I
11 have no further questions at this time.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Thayer.
13 Mr. Tolimir, do you have cross-examination of this witness?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I have a
15 few questions. If you will allow me, I will like to cross-examine this
16 witness, yes. Thank you.
17 I would like to greet everybody in the courtroom once again, and
18 I would like to welcome the witness as well.
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Blaszczyk, you stated that, as a member of
21 the international police force, you were deployed in the former Krajina
22 or the "so-called Krajina in Croatia," that's what you said.
23 My question is this: Where were you engaged, in what sector?
24 Thank you.
25 A. The first part of my deployment to Croatia at that time, I was
1 located in Sector North, so-called Sector North. Exactly I was in
2 Petrinja, in the village or town called Petrinja, and it was few
3 months -- the first few months of 1992. And then, temporarily, I was
4 deployed to Sarajevo
5 And when I returned from Sarajevo
6 month or two maybe. And then from Sector North, from Petrinja, I was
7 deployed to Sector West. It is Daruvar.
8 Q. [Microphone not activated]
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Tolimir.
10 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Thank you. Were you saying that you were in the territory of the
12 Republic of Serbian Krajina all the time? Is that what you're saying?
13 A. Yes. I was deployed -- most of the time I was deployed of the
14 territory of the former Serbian Krajina.
15 Q. Thank you. Mr. Blaszczyk, which unit did you belong to? Could
16 you please briefly describe your tasks in the Republic of Serbian
17 Krajina? Thank you.
18 A. In 1992 and 1993, we were members of international police. It
19 was monitoring mission, mission of United Nations, so-called part of
20 UNPROFOR mission. And our task was monitor situation on our sectors and
21 monitor the activity of the local police, but in fact, our access to the
22 local police was very limited. In fact, we acted rather like
23 humanitarian aid for the population in this area.
24 Q. Thank you, sir. Mr. Blaszczyk, what kind of duty did you have
25 there? Were you an observer or were you the supervisor of some observer
1 units? Thank you.
2 A. My duty was monitoring duty. I was a monitor. I wasn't
3 supervisor. I wasn't the station commander of our police, international
4 police; I was ordinary monitor.
5 Q. You thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk. Tell me why you said in your
6 statements that you performed several duties in what you call the
7 so-called or former Republic of Serbian Krajina, or, for short, Krajina.
8 So why do you say Krajina in Croatia
9 even say the so-called Krajina.
10 A. I said that because I was deployed at that time a tour for this
11 period, I was deployed to Sector North and Sector West, and shortly in
13 different, and my duty -- our duty or our presence over there was a
14 little bit different then, for example, in Sector North than in
15 Sector North [sic].
16 Q. Thank you. I asked you this because in the agreement about the
17 engagement of UNPROFOR in Croatia
19 It -- either its proper name is used or the name that the UNPROFOR
20 called, namely, sector whatever -- whichever it was. So please refer to
21 it by any of these names that were in use while you were performing your
22 duty there.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What is your question, Mr. Tolimir?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked Mr. Blaszczyk why he was
25 using terms to call the Republic of Serbian Krajina which were not in
1 official use while he was carrying out the duties of an UNPROFOR member
2 in the Republic of Serbian
3 THE WITNESS: I used the common name, the former Serbian Krajina
4 or so-called Krajina because it doesn't exist anymore. This is Croatia
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Nyambe has a question for the witness.
7 JUDGE NYAMBE: Yes, on page 58 of your testimony, line 2 into 3,
8 you say "... in Sector North than in Sector North." I think you mean
9 something different, no?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes, Your Honour. You are correct. No, I
11 meant Sector North and Sector West.
12 JUDGE NYAMBE: Okay. Thanks.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Carry on, please, Mr. Tolimir.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, tell us whether you officially received
17 instructions from the United Nations not to do anything that could be
18 interpreted as a recognition of the Republic of Serbian Krajina and not
19 to use the name of that republic in your utterances.
20 A. I don't remember such -- I don't remember such instruction.
21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk. Please tell us, were you engaged on
22 several occasions in Bosnia-Herzegovina; and if so, please describe the
23 nature of your activity there.
24 A. As I said, in 1992, I was deployed for two or three weeks to
1 movement of the flights which were coming to Sarajevo with humanitarian
2 aid and also movement of the passengers. And in 1996, I was deployed
3 again -- not again, but I was deployed to Bosnia-Herzegovina as the
4 member of IPTF, International Police Task Force, created also by
5 UN mission, but UN mission for Bosnia-Herzegovina. But it wasn't part of
6 UNPROFOR at that time, it was after Dayton Agreement in February 1996.
7 And as I said during my first day of my testimony, I've been
8 deployed to Bosnia-Herzegovina three times: The first time in 1996, then
9 1998, and 2001. Each time I stayed at least one year in the area of
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina. In 1996, I was deployed to Sarajevo and Vogosca; and
11 then shortly to Herzegovina
12 and then to Bihac area, it was 1996. 1998 and 2000/2001, entire time I
13 spent at Sarajevo
14 IPTF mission.
15 Q. Thank you. You have already answered my other questions. Do I
16 remember well that you said you started working for the OTP in
17 January 2003, and where did you work before that? Did you work on
18 military documentation, that is, did you investigate into military
20 A. You mean before I joined OTP?
21 Q. Yes, exactly. I mean the period preceding January 2003. Thank
23 A. No. Before that period I never -- before January 2003 I never
24 worked with military documents.
25 Q. Before January 2003, did you have anything to do with police
2 A. You mean international police documentation or the local police
4 Q. I mean, did you work on archiving, registering, or any other
5 activity that had to do with archives and documents, be it with the
6 police or the military? Thank you.
7 A. No, I was never involved in such activities.
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk. Please tell us, what does training and
9 monitoring the local police mean? That's an activity that you performed
10 in Bosnia
11 A. Training, it means typical training for the police officers. You
12 know, according to the western Europe standards, let's say. And
13 monitoring, it means that monitoring their activities, reacting on their
14 reaction, how they did react for certain situation, events. And looking
15 at their activities, we -- yeah, the IPTF prepares kind of training
16 programme for the local police officers, but in fact, I never was
17 involved in the training programme for the local police officers. I was
18 involved in the job with IPTF HQ in Sarajevo. Mostly I was dealing with
19 new monitors, new IPTF monitors, who were coming to Bosnia-Herzegovina.
20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk. Before you got a job with the OTP,
21 while you were monitoring the police force in Bosnia, did you -- did you
22 have contact with any of their documentation for whatever reason?
23 A. It was 1996, when I was deployed to Mostar region, to Trebinje
24 and then to Bihac region. I was deployed to the police station, the IPTF
25 police station in these regions. And at that time we have contact with
1 documentation from the particular police station from these regions. For
2 example, the RS log-book we checked every day or every few days -- every
3 day, I don't remember right now, who had been arrested by the local
4 police or for what reason, et cetera, for example. And we were checking
5 also the log-books of duty officers at the police stations, at the local
6 police stations, checking what is the entries of the log-books. The
7 only -- this is my only involvement with documentation from the local
8 police officers.
9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk. Tell me, did you ever analyse military
10 documents? Thank you.
11 A. Since I joined the OTP and the ICTY here, we are in constant
12 contact with military documents, and obvious that we are analysing these
13 documents, also me, in some extent.
14 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that you make assessments and analyses
15 after having read those documents? Thank you.
16 A. Yes, I have my own assessment and analysis of such documents, but
17 also we are using the help of our professional analysts to getting more
18 information about particular documents.
20 position in the OTP team for Srebrenica which you currently occupy.
21 Thank you.
22 A. I am the investigator for this team. I am investigator for OTP.
23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk. Tell us, please, as an investigator of
24 the ICTY, what exactly are your duties? Thank you.
25 A. My duty is to take the active part in our investigation regarding
1 this subject, and I am interviewing the witnesses, victims, suspects, I
2 am doing the suspects interview, I am collecting the evidence.
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk. Before I pass on to my following
4 question, please tell me: Do you have any legal experience in your work
5 or do you have any legal training? Thank you.
6 A. I graduated the police academy and I spent many years at our
7 police, and I had a contact with legal aspects of my work.
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk. Please tell us whether your supervisor
9 at the OTP is Mr. Peter McCloskey?
10 A. Mr. Peter McCloskey, he is a senior trial attorney for this
11 particular case, and generally, he is responsible for this case in -- it
12 means that somehow I am subordinated to him in relation to this case.
13 But my direct supervisor is deputy chief of investigation right now.
14 Previously it was chief of investigation. I think now his title is
15 deputy chief of trial support.
16 Q. Thank you. Do you mean the chief investigator of the ICTY,
17 Mr. Serge Brammertz or the chief investigator in this case? Thank you.
18 A. Mr. Se rge Brammertz is Prosecution -- the main Prosecutor for
19 ICTY, but I meant the person who performed the duty as -- as deputy -- I
20 think his title right now is deputy chief of trial support. His name is
21 Bob Reid. And my direct supervisor is team leader of Team B, as
22 investigation section was sometime ago divided for teams, A, B, C, D. I
23 was a member of Team B and the head -- the chief of this Team B was
24 Peter Mitford-Burgess, is still.
25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk. Can you, as an investigator of the
1 OTP, publish the results of your investigations without the agreement of
2 your supervisors in the OTP? Thank you.
3 A. No. This is not possible. I should get -- this is possible of
4 course, but I should get the permission from my supervisors.
5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk. Please tell us, are you duty-bound to
6 safe-guard the results of your activity or your investigations as an
7 official secret? Thank you.
8 A. Yes, as every investigation.
9 Q. Thank you. This being the case, please tell us, can you make
10 public appearances without the written permission of someone in the OTP;
11 and if not, who is the one you need to apply for permission to? Thank
13 A. I don't know exactly the procedure. I never was interested to
14 ask for such permission, but I believe this is management of the OTP, of
15 entire Tribunal.
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk. Please tell me, is it your duty, as a
17 member of the investigation team of the OTP, to protect -- to protect the
18 interests of the OTP and harmonise your public appearances with the
19 official positions of the OTP? And when I say "official positions," I
20 mean the positions that the Prosecution puts forward in this trial.
21 Thank you.
22 I have been informed that the last part of my question has not
23 been interpreted, so let me explain.
24 When I say "official positions," I mean that you defend the
25 allegations made by the Prosecution in the indictment as put forward in
1 the -- in this trial? Thank you.
2 A. It's quite -- I would say that all of us, investigators and
3 lawyers, we are obligated to disclose entire 68 rule evidence. And our
4 rule as investigators, and I believe lawyers as well, is just to find the
5 truth, exactly to find the real facts, what happened in this period we
6 are investigating. It doesn't matter whether it -- sometimes it follows
7 the first idea or theory of the Prosecution, but the most important is
8 for us to find the facts and the truth, what had happened. Our position
9 as OTP or, I believe, lawyers in our team can be changed if we find
10 evidence telling or just telling a little bit different -- telling a bit
11 differently than, let's say, the first idea, the first theory, OTP
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk. Speaking about what you have just
14 explained, tell me, are you duty-bound as an investigator of the OTP to
15 look for alleviating evidence in this case?
16 A. Yes, I am.
17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk. Please tell me which criterion do you
18 apply to establish whether the evidence is alleviating. I'm referring to
19 Rule 68 of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence. Thank you.
20 A. I'm looking at the evidence I received or I managed to get,
21 whether this evidence showing us a mitigation facts or exculpatory facts
22 for that use. And in such occasion, if I manage to locate such evidence,
23 we discuss, rather, this evidence with our lawyers and the evidence were
24 put for disclosure log for the accused, for the Defence.
25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk. If that is so, please tell us, can
1 you, without a special permission of the OTP, testify as a Defence
2 witness? Thank you.
3 A. I don't know in fact, but I believe it's possible also.
4 Q. Thank you. Please tell me then, do you work full time as an OTP
5 investigator on the team for Srebrenica or do you do some other work as
7 A. I would say that I work full time for Srebrenica investigation,
8 not necessarily for this case but mostly -- yeah. I investigate -- I am
9 investigating or I am involved in investigation regarding the fall of
10 Srebrenica in July 1995.
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk. Do you now spend as many hours doing
12 the job as it was when you started, or can you give us a rough figure how
13 many hours per month do you perform this work?
14 A. I can say that we are spending much more hours than before, when
15 I joined the OTP. It's difficult to say. I would say that this is
16 unlimited working hours, almost. Sometimes we are starting our job at --
17 usually we should -- we are obligated to start our job at the office at
18 9.00 and it's very often we are sitting at the office long hours, having
19 a lot of things to do, and also I spent many hours on the missions in the
20 Balkans or other region.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I think it's time for the second
22 break, and you should think about the course of questions you are putting
23 to the witness, if it's really helpful for your Defence and your case to
24 know exactly the kind of work and the time this witness is spending with
25 his work in the OTP.
1 You should use the break, the time of the break, to think about
2 that. We adjourn and resume at 1.00.
3 --- Recess taken at 12.34 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, please continue with your
6 cross-examination, but do -- sorry, there was a mistake with the
8 Could you indicate if you will be able to finish during this
9 session today.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know if I'll be able to
11 because it depends on the witness as well, and I have a lot of questions.
12 And I intend to use all the time that was allotted to me.
13 I asked the gentleman about the number of hours that he spends
14 investigating, and nobody will allow me an investigator. I would like to
15 recall the principle of equality of arms. I have no investigator and you
16 know how many the OTP have.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, this is a different topic. Now we
18 are in cross-examination. Please carry on.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
20 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, before we move on to the second set of questions,
22 tell us whether the OTP ever searched for ABiH documents in relation to
23 the investigation about Srebrenica and Zepa.
24 A. I know that such search has been done definitely, and I believe
25 we got some quite useful documents from this search for our
1 investigation. But I don't remember when it was done and where exactly,
2 from the top of my head, but definitely it has been done.
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk. Please tell us, is there a collection
4 of documents of the ABiH for those units that had anything to do with
5 Srebrenica on your investigation team?
6 A. Sorry, you mean collection of the documents in our investigation
7 team? We don't have such collections. We are using the collections
8 seized by OTP or received from other sources, and everybody has access to
9 these collections. And there are also documents from BiH army and BiH
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk. Please tell me whether those documents
12 and materials are accessible to the Defence team if we should apply for
13 them? Thank you.
14 A. I believe yes. I don't see any reason why not, unless they are
15 restricted documents, but it should be done in legal way.
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk. You stated that the documentation of
17 the Drina Corps comprises about 35.000 pages. Did you establish that
18 personally or was it done by your fellow team members?
19 A. I said there are total about 315.000 pages, and it is easy to
20 establish looking at their ERN range of the pages stamped by our evidence
21 unit. But it was visible since the first I see -- I saw this collection
22 in Zagreb
23 exact number, it's necessary to look at the ERN range of these documents,
24 Drina Corps collection documents.
1 should be 315.000.
2 Did you personally take part in the analysis of that
3 documentation, such as its registering, listing, and processing? Thank
5 A. Each investigator whichever is taking part analysing the
6 documents, it doesn't matter it is Drina Corps collection or other
7 collection, having these document or using these documents by us, we have
8 to analyse such documents. But regarding these documents from
9 Drina Corps collection, we have some kind of the spreadsheet. One of our
10 analysts created a spreadsheet and she is analysing each document from
11 this collection. It takes long time to analyse each document from this
12 collection, taking into the account how many pages there are. But so far
13 as I remember, in our spreadsheet we have about 20.000 documents selected
14 and put in the spreadsheet, you know, just particularly selected from the
15 Drina Corps collections. I'm not talking about the pages, I'm talking
16 about documents, 20- or 22.000 documents.
18 preparing for this testimony did you review a number of documents, as we
19 have been informed by Mr. Nelson, and my question is: Who selected the
20 documents that you reviewed? Thank you.
21 A. Answering to the first part of your question, yes, I reviewed the
22 documents which had been shown in this courtroom. And second part of the
23 question, who selected the documents? There was a lawyer who conducted
24 examination, of course, and -- yes. But to be clear, I seen these
25 documents much before, before my preparation even for the Popovic case.
1 When I testified in the Popovic case I seen these documents, most of them
2 at least.
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk. Please tell us, what was the criterion
4 for the selection of the documents that you reviewed before giving
5 evidence here, or could you perhaps say more precisely why these
6 documents were selected from the overall collection of 315.000.
7 A. We try -- I believe we managed to prove that these documents are
8 authenticated. This is the criterion how we selected these documents
9 from this collection. And yes, in this way. And showing the
10 Trial Chamber also the way how the documents were handed over to us, the
11 chain of custody of these documents, and also showing a little bit how
12 the documents were distributed between the Drina Corps units and other
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk. Please tell me, were there also
15 documents in that collection that are not reliable?
16 A. Personally I don't remember any such document, seeing such -- any
17 such document.
18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk. Please tell me, all the copies of dual
19 documents that have been shown here, do they all fully match
21 A. I don't remember. I don't understand your question. Could you
22 rephrase it, please. What do you mean by "fully match content-wise"?
23 Q. You have been examined about the circumstances connected to dual
24 documents. There were differences in terms of numbering, et cetera, but
25 are there any differences between these dual documents when it comes to
1 their contents?
2 A. It's difficult to say from the top of my head, but if I would
3 have such documents in front of me, I would analyse the contents of the
4 documents, of course I will notice the differences.
5 Q. Thank you. For example, the first such document was P2775 -- 4
6 and P1982. They were shown to you at the same time. Did you analyse
7 their form as well as the content, i.e., did you find any differences in
8 the content just as you did in their form?
9 A. Can I look at these documents, please?
10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the General please repeat the numbers.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
12 P2174 and P1982. These are the numbers, if I remember correctly, if I
13 made -- 04312743 is the ERN number of the original, and the copy, 0917878
14 [as interpreted]. Thank you. Could these two documents please be shown
15 to the witness.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
17 MR. THAYER: Just to assist, Mr. President, I think we just need
18 the -- I think what the General is asking for is the B/C/S original side
19 by side, like we did before, rather than having the translation of the
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There was a document issued by the
23 Drina Corps on the 17th of July, 1995, and the original is number
24 0091785 -- actually, the copy is that number. And the original is
25 0425798. I still am not sure about the number because the document was
1 not shown on the screen in its entirety. Can we please be shown the
2 contents of that document. Thank you.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think we have some confusion now. I really
4 don't know to which document you are referring. During
5 examination-in-chief the Prosecution used other numbers, and therefore
6 that was quite simple. I don't know how to manage this problem now.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Mr. Nelson knows which two documents he showed in parallel on
9 e-court. Maybe he can assist. I could not make a note of the second
10 number because I couldn't see the complete number on the screen. Thank
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
13 MR. THAYER: Okay. Maybe I can clarify the record just a bit,
14 Mr. President. There is a reference that the General gave to 0425798. I
15 think that's what's throwing us off. I think we can just disregard that
16 number. What we are looking at now, I believe is what the General wants
17 to look at. And on the left, we have 65 ter 2174, which bears
18 ERN 04312743; and on the right, we have 65 ter 1982, which bears the
19 ERN 00917878.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If the last number is really an 8 and not a 9.
21 MR. THAYER: Yes, Your Honour. The last number of the first page
22 of the document is an 8; and the second page, the last number is a 9.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, are these the documents you were
24 asking for?
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will make sure that
1 my Defence team shows the document because I have just provided them with
2 my notes kept in my own handwriting while the witness was being examined
3 on chief. I will proceed and I'll move on to another topic.
4 Thank you.
5 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, the Drina Corps collection, did it also contain
7 documents which did not belong to the Drina Corps? Could you please tell
8 us whether you observed any such documents. Thank you.
9 A. I remember such documents, but -- and not only documents, but
10 also the few artefacts which were part of the Drina Corps collection.
11 But I think there were documents of the Muslim army forces seized in
12 Srebrenica after the Srebrenica was fallen or liberated by VRS. I
13 remember these documents from this collection and also these few
15 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Can you please now answer the following
16 question: How come that the Drina Corps collection contained just one
17 document of another unit and you still call the collection the
18 Drina Corps collection? Thank you.
19 A. If we are referring to these Muslim documents, I believe the
20 documents was seized after the Srebrenica fallen, when Srebrenica was
21 captured by the Serb army. If we are -- you are referring to these
23 Q. Thank you. I'm not referring to that, I'm referring to the
24 original documents which originated from the Main Staff or from another
25 unit; in other words, they were the ones considered incoming documents,
1 not outgoing documents.
2 A. I don't know whether I understood your question clearly, but to
3 my knowledge and my experience, I believe that it's possible that few
4 Main Staff documents could be located in this collection because the
5 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska were sending these documents
6 to Drina Corps collection. And then from Drina Corps collection --
7 sorry, to Drina Corps command. And of course, from Drina Corps command,
8 the documents were sent to subordinated unit of Drina Corps. And this is
9 possible, of course.
10 Q. Thank you. So it is possible for incoming documents, but how
11 about outgoing documents sent from the main corps, the sabotage unit, and
12 other such units which were not part of the Drina Corps? And I'm talking
13 about a number of single documents from such units. How is that
15 A. I would prefer to see these documents which -- I would like to
16 see what I am referring to, but I think -- yes. If it -- if this is
17 possible, of course.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
19 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I think I know what General Tolimir
20 has in mind, but there's a -- the question refers to the main corps and
21 the sabotage unit, and if we can just identify what we're talking about
22 because I'm -- there's -- as far as I know, there's no such thing as the
23 main corps. So if we could just have some specificity, I think that will
24 help the record and the witness.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
1 Mr. Tolimir, could you deal with it?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Of course, Mr. President. 04258580
3 is the ERN number of the document that was previously shown in the
5 [Defence counsel confer]
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, your microphone is still switched
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
10 MR. THAYER: If the General would like that to be shown, it is
11 65 ter 185.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. That's correct.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can you now please switch off your microphone,
15 Mr. Tolimir.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think the -- we have now again the English
18 translation. That was not what Mr. Tolimir had in mind. He would like,
19 like in -- during examination-in-chief, to have the different type of the
20 same document with different ERN numbers on the screen.
21 Is that correct, Mr. Tolimir?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On the left-hand side we can see
23 the document that I asked for, and we don't see its copy, the one that
24 Mr. Nelson showed. It is actually on the right-hand side. I'm going to
25 use the left-hand side document, and you can avail yourself of the
1 translation, of course. Thank you.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, to clarify, not Mr. Nelson is in the
3 courtroom, but Mr. Thayer.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you,
5 Mr. President. I apologise to Mr. Thayer.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If you now have a question for this witness,
7 please ask him.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Witness, does this document originate from another unit? Is this
11 the way units produce the documents, without any heading, without any
12 military post? This looks like something that an elementary school
13 student has written. Thank you.
14 A. Yes, this ...
15 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
16 THE WITNESS: Regarding this document, these documents was
17 originated from IKM, the forward command post of 65th Protection Regiment
18 in IKM in Borike, at 1400 hours. And indeed, this is not usual format of
19 dispatches, but during the interview, communication officer from
20 Rogatica Brigade, Danko Gojkovic, whose signature we have on the bottom
21 of this document, confirm that he received this document. He doesn't
22 remember whether this document was typed -- was dictated to him on the
23 phone, as far as I remember, or sent by courier, could be from Borike
24 IKM. Yes. But he -- for sure he recognised his signature and
1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk. Was the signatory of this document a
3 Prosecution witness? Did you speak to him? Did he tell you anything
4 about this document? Thank you.
5 A. Yes, I talked to this witness. I interviewed this witness and
6 also this witness testified in the previous trial, but I think he doesn't
7 remember the contents of that document but he recognised his handwriting
8 and signature here. And he is sure that this document had been sent by
10 Q. This document does not bear a signature, and it is also not a
11 handwritten document. Thank you.
12 A. It's correct. It has no signature and this is not handwritten
13 document, but not possible -- when we interview Mr. Danko Gojkovic, the
14 communication officer from Rogatica Brigade, it is not possible that he
15 could be sent any kind of private correspondence or whatever, you know,
16 through the official communication channels. It should be given order to
17 him to send this particular document. As I said, he doesn't remember
18 exactly, but this document could be received by him for sending through
19 telephone line or through the courier.
20 Q. Thank you. I understand that you're talking about Gojkovic, but
21 what did the author of this document say? In the Popovic case, there was
22 a witness who claimed that he was the author of this document, so what
23 did he have to say?
24 A. I don't remember from the top of my head, but you are referring,
25 I guess, to Colonel Milomir Savcic, who testified in the previous trial.
1 It's correct?
2 Q. Yes, you're right. I did not want to mention his name. It's not
3 up to me to mention the names of the Prosecution witnesses. You spoke to
4 him, or rather, to all the Prosecution witnesses, and you're the ones who
5 should tell us what they told you during the proofing sessions before the
6 trial. Thank you.
7 A. I -- in fact, I don't remember whether I took the part in the
8 proofing session of this particular witness, but I would prefer to see on
9 an information report or proofing notes on this proofing session, if I
10 can to refer to something.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
12 MR. THAYER: Just so everybody knows, General Savcic is listed as
13 a proposed witness for the Prosecution, he's witness number 128. So like
14 Mr. Gojkovic, the communications officer we're talking about, we expect
15 that testimony to be before the Trial Chamber from the horse's mouth, as
16 it were.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
18 I think this is very helpful for your examination, to take that
19 into account. Carry on, please.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
21 And thank you, Mr. Thayer.
22 Q. I would now like to ask, Mr. Blaszczyk, is it logical that a
23 telegram was sent to the following addresses: To the commander of the
24 Main Staff; CC, the assistant commander of the Main Staff for morale and
25 religious affairs; to the commander of the military police battalion,
1 order. And then at the end of the document, an opinion and position is
2 sought from a completely different person. Thank you.
3 A. I think this is logical. This is logical that this dispatch was
4 sent to the information for the commander of the Main Staff of
5 Republika Srpska and to the assistant commander for the morale,
6 religious, and legal affairs, Army of Republika Srpska, and order to the
7 commander of military police battalion on the 65th Protection Regiment.
8 Colonel Savcic, at that time, he was the commander of entire
9 65th Protection Regiment. It's obvious that the commander of the
10 battalion of each regiment was subordinated to him, and as far as we
11 know - also from the testimony of Colonel Savcic - the person who Colonel
12 Savcic is referring to in his -- this document, I mean General Tolimir,
13 was together with him at Borike at that time.
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk. Could you please read paragraph 4. He
15 doesn't mention General Tolimir here, that's number one; and number two,
16 why did he send this document to General Gvero in light of the fact that,
17 in the chain of command, General Gvero was not his superior? Thank you.
18 A. Sorry, would you like me to read it loudly, the fourth paragraph?
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think Mr. Tolimir asked you why you mentioned
20 the name of General Tolimir in respect to paragraph 4 of this document.
21 THE WITNESS: You see that there is referring -- Colonel Savcic
22 is referring to the assistant commander for security and intelligence
23 affairs of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, but this
24 position was held at that time by General Tolimir.
25 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Thank you. I said that he didn't mention me under 4. How come
2 that Savcic did not send this to his superior, but rather, sent it to
3 General Gvero, who was not in a command position in that chain of
4 command? He was not a commander of any unit in that chain of command.
5 How do you account for that?
6 A. From many documents we see that General Gvero was involved in the
7 events following the fall of Srebrenica, and we see that he was in the
8 chain of the command of the Srebrenica operation. And why he's referring
9 exactly why he considered him as one of the recipients of these
10 documents -- of these documents, I think you, General, and Trial Chamber
11 will have opportunity to ask Colonel Milomir Savcic.
12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk. Did you see another document from the
13 protection regiment addressed to General Gvero or to somebody else? Have
14 you seen any other such documents?
15 A. I don't remember from the top of my head just -- but possible
16 that I saw that. I don't remember.
17 Q. Thank you. You said that some lawyers saw the Drina Corps
18 collection. Did they also see this document and did they use it to
19 defend their clients in other cases?
20 A. I don't know.
21 Q. Thank you. Before testifying in the Krstic case or in the case
22 of any other generals, did you single out this and any such documents
23 following the instructions of your team leaders?
24 A. I didn't testify for the Krstic case. I testified in Popovic
25 case only.
1 Q. Thank you. Was this document used in the Popovic case? Thank
3 A. I believe this document was used in Popovic case -- at least when
4 Colonel Milomir Savcic testified.
5 Q. Was it used by the Prosecution or was it used by any of the
6 Defence teams? Thank you.
7 A. By Prosecution for sure, but I believe it could be used also by
8 Defence team. But we should go back to the transcript from Popovic trial
9 to see who referred to these documents, but definitely was used by
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk. We will look at that and we will deal
12 with that when Savcic comes. Is it logical that only one document sent
13 from the protection regiment should appear in the collection of what you
14 call the Drina Corps collection? Thank you.
15 A. As I told already, this is not complete collection of Drina
16 Corps, and this is not collection of the Main Staff of the Army of
17 Republika Srpska. We know and everybody knows that 65th Protection
18 Regiment, this is unit of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.
19 And this is reason why we don't have more or at least I don't remember
20 whether we have much -- many more documents from this unit. It could be
21 still somewhere in the archive of the Main Staff. Unfortunately, we
22 didn't manage to find the entire archive for the Main Staff of the Army
23 of Republika Srpska.
24 Q. Thank you. I asked you something else. [Microphone not
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the accused.
2 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Thank you. I asked you this. Is it logical that in the archives
4 that you found in Gornji Milanovac you should find only one document
5 originating from the regiment -- protection regiment which is very
6 suitable for the Srebrenica trials, and I repeat, only one and not any
7 others? Thank you.
8 A. Definitely this document was seized together with Drina Corps
9 collection, and this is document, in fact, sent by the unit of the
10 Drina Corps, by Rogatica communication officer. This is not surprise for
11 me that the communication officer or -- or Rogatica Brigade had these
12 documents of 65th Protection Regiment.
13 We should remember that 65th Protection Regiment was operating at
14 that time in Borike. This is area of responsibility of Rogatica Brigade
15 and entire Drina Corps. And in fact, I should look at log of our
16 Drina Corps documents to see whether we have more 65th Protection
17 documents -- I mean, issued by the 65th Protection Regiment or not, but I
18 don't remember now from the top of my head. But I remember very well
19 this document because it was very significant document for me when I saw
20 it first time in Zagreb
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think we are running out of time. We are at
22 the end of today's sitting.
23 Mr. Tolimir, is it possible for you to indicate - I will not put
24 any pressure on you - but to indicate how much additional time you would
25 need for finishing your cross-examination?
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Most probably a minimum of two
2 hours. Thank you.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
4 And as the Prosecution had the opportunity to examine this
5 witness for three hours, that was three times of the indicated one hour,
6 it is the right, of course, of the accused to examine this witness.
7 We are now in the position that we can't continue this week, we
8 can't continue your examination next week because there's another witness
9 scheduled which is -- was travelling, I think, from a far, distant,
10 location. So that we shall find out the proper situation for you to come
11 back to the hearing to continue the cross-examination.
12 Thank you for your attendance here. We will just remind you that
13 you should not contact either parties during -- about this -- the content
14 of this case, but as you are a member of the OTP, you may, of course,
15 contact your colleagues.
16 We have one problem with the documents we have seen on the
17 screen. You didn't tender them when they were on the screen, and
18 although the Chamber -- you know the position of the Chamber, would
19 appreciate that they were tendered when they were put to witnesses.
20 Therefore, in this case I would prefer that you send a memo with the
21 exact numbers, and then the Registry will give them exhibit numbers so
22 that we have it as soon as possible on the record. In that way, we could
23 really avoid some confusion which occurred now during the
25 MR. THAYER: I apologise for that, Mr. President. We have
1 already distributed the list of documents to tender, so I think everybody
2 has that and we'll deal with that when we meet again for the final
3 tendering process.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In this case, just very clear, if we would have
5 the document, the Prosecution number, the exhibit number already on the
6 record, it would be easier during cross-examination to use these
7 documents. Please bear in mind that procedure in future cases.
8 We have to adjourn now. We will resume next week, Monday, and
9 then three Judges will be present again. Thank you very much.
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.50 p.m.
11 to be reconvened on Monday, the 3rd day of
12 May, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.