Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1499

 1                           Monday, 3 May 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom.

 6             Before the witness is being brought in, the Chamber would like to

 7     raise two matters.  The first is related to a problem we have dealt with

 8     last week already.  That was the issue concerning the tendering of

 9     unofficial and uncorrected transcripts by the Prosecution.  This matter

10     was raised by the Chamber during the proceedings on Monday, the 26th of

11     April.

12             The Chamber has recently been informed that the Registry had --

13     in fact, all the transcripts tendered so far during the trial sessions

14     are, in fact, unofficial and uncorrected.  Therefore, the Chamber would

15     like to ask you, Mr. Tolimir, whether you have any submissions in this

16     regard before the Chamber is inclined to deal with it further.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

18             I'd like to greet everybody present and all those following the

19     trial.  May there be peace among us, and with God's will let these

20     proceedings pass smoothly.

21             Now, Mr. President, just those who -- the ones that are

22     corrected, not the ones that somebody is going to brush up.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In fact, I didn't understand your position,

24     Mr. Tolimir.  Do you have any submissions with regard to receiving of

25     transcripts of previous trials with some witnesses we are hearing here,

Page 1500

 1     the corrected or the uncorrected and unofficial versions?  The previous

 2     versions were all uncorrected and unofficial, and, therefore, the Chamber

 3     addressed this problem to the Prosecution to replace them by the official

 4     and corrected versions.  Do you have any comments to that?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 6             When I said "corrected," I meant those that have been verified

 7     and corrected and looked through officially, not those with mistakes that

 8     have not been verified.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

10             The Chamber, by this oral decision, instructs the Prosecution to

11     replace the unofficial and uncorrected transcripts that have been

12     admitted so far with the official and corrected versions.  These

13     concerned Exhibits P29, P36, P37, P49, P60, P69, P97, P98, and P102.

14             The other matter the Chamber would like to raise is the

15     following:  The Chamber has received an e-mail from the Defence, dated

16     27th of April, whereby the Defence seeks admission of a number of

17     exhibits used with Witness 53, that is, PW-015, during the

18     cross-examination on the 26th of April.  The Chamber notes, firstly, that

19     two of the exhibits mentioned in the e-mail have, in fact, already been

20     admitted into evidence as D26 and D27.  These are the 65 ter numbers 1D47

21     and 1D48 on the list attached to this e-mail by the Defence.

22             Secondly, the Chamber notes that seeking admission of exhibits

23     used with the witnesses in court by way of an e-mail, after the witness's

24     evidence has already concluded, is not the appropriate course of action.

25     The Defence had ample opportunity to seek admission of these exhibits in

Page 1501

 1     the course of cross-examination on the 26th of April.  This would have

 2     provided the Prosecution the opportunity to raise objections, if any, to

 3     the admission of these exhibits.  As this is the first instance where the

 4     Chamber has received a request of this nature from the Defence by way of

 5     an e-mail, the Chamber proposes to do the following:  Provided that the

 6     Prosecution does not have objections to the admission of the exhibits

 7     listed in the e-mail, all of which were used extensively with the

 8     Witness PW-015, the Chamber is inclined to admit into evidence the

 9     exhibits listed in the Defence e-mail which are not already in evidence.

10     This concerns the 65 ter numbers 1D81, 1D82, 1D50, and 1D52.

11             Mr. McCloskey, is the Prosecution in a position to state whether

12     it has objections to the admission of these exhibits?

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours.  If

14     I could have one second.

15             Mr. President, the Prosecution has no objection to what are noted

16     as images 50 and 52.  However, 81 and 82 are witness statements, and

17     unless there's some special reason for a witness statement to come in in

18     its entirety, I think it was used fairly on cross-examination, but unless

19     there's something special or a special reason, we would object to the

20     statements coming in in their entirety.  Otherwise, witnesses will be

21     followed by their statements, and there's many, many statements.

22     Anything that's used in cross-examination, I don't think, is, by itself,

23     a reason for a statement to come in, unless, of course, the Chamber

24     wishes to see all these statements, which some Trial Chambers do, and

25     that's fine.  But it was not my understanding that you wanted to see all

Page 1502

 1     the witness statements.  And, of course, the relevant portions were read

 2     to the witness.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

 4             First of all, the Chamber will receive the photographs, 65 ter

 5     1D50 and 65 ter 1D52, as an exhibit.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 1D50 will be Exhibit D29.  65 ter 1D52

 7     will be Exhibit D30, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Taking into account your objection to the other

 9     two documents, the Chamber will consider the matter further during the

10     next break, and we'll inform the parties on its decision later.

11             The witness should be brought in.

12             Mr. Tolimir.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, 81 and 82, you don't

14     have to admit into evidence, and that's not something we requested

15     either.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I'm surprised.

17                           [The witness takes the stand]

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If I understood the e-mail by the Defence

19     correctly, that you were tendering them by e-mail.  We will deal with

20     that later.  Thank you.

21             Good afternoon, Mr. Ruez.

22             THE WITNESS:  Good afternoon.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Welcome back to the Tribunal for continuing the

24     cross-examination.

25             First of all, I would like to remind you that the affirmation you

Page 1503

 1     made at the beginning of your examination still applies.

 2                           WITNESS:  JEAN-RENE RUEZ [Resumed]

 3             THE WITNESS:  I understand.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please sit down.

 5             Mr. Gajic.

 6             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

 7             Let me introduce myself.  My name is Aleksandar Gajic.  I am

 8     legal assistant for Zdravko Tolimir.  I'd like to raise an administrative

 9     issue.

10             The Court Officer was sent an e-mail linked to certain problems

11     linked to e-court and not for the documents, part 81 and 82, to be

12     admitted into evidence.  Namely, the problem was with the photographs

13     that were admitted into evidence, but were not within the system the

14     following day.  So that was the problem.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

16             As I indicated just now, we will deal with that later and check

17     that.

18             Mr. Tolimir, you are now in the position to continue your

19     cross-examination.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.  Microphone for the

21     accused.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You need the microphone.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  Thank you, Mr. President.

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir: [Continued]

25        Q.   Mr. Ruez, good afternoon, and welcome.

Page 1504

 1             I'd like to remind you of this.  On page 16268, lines 18 and 20

 2     of the transcript, you said:

 3             "The object of the investigation was not to establish how many

 4     people managed to live and leave the security zone of Srebrenica, but to

 5     determine the destiny of those who were proclaimed missing."

 6             Are those your words?

 7        A.   Yes, these are my words, and I confirm what I previously said.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Now, at the end of your cross-examination, and I'd

 9     like to remind you of this because of continuity, you said -- 10766 page,

10     lines 12 to 25, and 1077 [as interpreted], lines 1 and 2 of the

11     transcript you said, and I quote:

12             "Already in July or August 1995, while we were in Tuzla, during

13     the summer, we had access to several hundred statements from the

14     Commission for War Crimes, and as I've already said, from the Ministry of

15     the Interior as well -- similarly, from the United Nations Sector for

16     Civilian Affairs.  We also handed out questionnaires to the refugees

17     camps and non-government organisations so as to --" or, rather, "which

18     would have anything with any relevant information, to contact us.  Now,

19     on the basis of that, we drew up several packages, if I could put it that

20     way.  One package of measures were those -- were people who had

21     information.  The second group were people who had something important to

22     tell us about the deportation route from Potocari to Kladanj, and the

23     main statements, those that were most important, were from the last

24     group, which claimed that the witnesses either saw the killings or were

25     executed."

Page 1505

 1             So I think that's what we were discussing the last time.  Did I

 2     quote you correctly?  Thank you.

 3        A.   Yes, absolutely.  We have rough packages in which we separated

 4     potential witnesses.  It could be more detailed, but this was, indeed,

 5     the situation at the time.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Ruez, my next question is this, the first

 7     question:  Did you look at the reasons for which Srebrenica -- people

 8     left Srebrenica, because you referred to deportation here, so did you

 9     look into the reasons, and the Defence talks about the Muslims leaving

10     Srebrenica?  Thank you.

11        A.   It's not really up to me, I think, to answer the question,

12     because the transport of a population, for me, it's, let's say, the

13     people, as you say, who evacuated the enclave.  But when there can be

14     some legal considerations to look into, this is not part of my work, but

15     the work of Prosecution to determine if this transfer of population is a

16     foreseeable transfer or deportation whatsoever.  So I confirm, indeed, we

17     looked into the aspect of the evacuation of a population who was inside

18     the enclave.

19             Now, you also asked me, I think, if we looked into the reason why

20     these people left.  The conclusion of the investigation, as you most

21     certainly know, is that in Potocari the behaviour of the Bosnian Army was

22     designed to inflict such terror to these people that they would leave on

23     their own will this area.  That was planned by those who decided to take

24     it over at that time, and this is the reason why these people voluntarily

25     tried to get on board of the buses before being separated by this

Page 1506

 1     squadron of Bosnian Serb soldiers.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  Thank you.  Now, my second question is

 3     this:  Did you, as an investigator, deal with the question of who took

 4     the decision to leave Srebrenica?  Thank you.  May I ask for shorter

 5     answers adjusted to the question I asked, please.

 6        A.   To make it, in that case, very short:  As far as I know, the

 7     decision to leave was made individually by all those who had the feeling

 8     that had they not left, they would have been captured and subsequently

 9     killed.  This is the main reason why these people left.

10        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  My question was:  Did you investigate it or

11     not?  Thank you.

12        A.   It was not a precise point of investigation, but any witness with

13     whom myself or other investigators took interviews from raised this

14     issue.

15        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  Now, my next question is this:  In

16     categorising the witnesses, when you categorise them - you mentioned that

17     on the 30th of March and I read through it a moment ago - you mentioned a

18     number of categories of witnesses, but no mention is made of witnesses

19     about the events in the column.  Did you interview witnesses like that,

20     too, and did you attach importance to them in order to determine the

21     destiny of those who were proclaimed missing?  Thank you.

22        A.   Yes, absolutely, for the main reason that among those who ended

23     up prisoners under the control of the Bosnian Serb Army, you have two

24     main groups.  The group 1 is those who got separated when trying to get

25     on board of buses during the evacuation of the Srebrenica enclave, and

Page 1507

 1     the second much larger group is those who were among this column who had

 2     been trapped between Srebrenica and Konjevic Polje, and when adopting a

 3     massive surrender process at the 13, in the morning, it is among this

 4     group that you find the most future survivors of the executions that were

 5     done the two following days -- on the three, four following day in the

 6     area north.

 7        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  Perhaps you didn't understand me properly.

 8     What I meant was those who were in the column and left and went to Tuzla,

 9     that is to say, those who passed through the line and the route from

10     Srebrenica to Baljkovica to Tuzla.  So my question would be the

11     following:  Did you have an occasion to receive statements from the

12     Bosnian authorities about this category of persons, those who managed to

13     break through and left, and did they give statements of that kind to the

14     police and the army, and did you have any special instructions for taking

15     statements from people who transferred from Srebrenica to BH territory?

16     Thank you.

17        A.   I understand the question, General.  Yes, it is a group in which

18     we initially looked into.  The goal was not to reconstruct the military

19     adventure between Konjevic Polje and Nezuk, but to find out if in that

20     military action in process there had also been some crimes that would

21     have to be dealt with by this investigation.  The reality is the few

22     people we wished to interview were put up front by the BiH Army.  They

23     had very little to say.  At least they had nothing to say about any kind

24     of atrocity during this military operation, which was battle.  And since

25     it was battle, it was very quickly taken out of our screen of what was

Page 1508

 1     the main purpose of the investigation, which was to find out what

 2     happened to the missing people.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  Since you're talking about the destiny of

 4     those who went missing, and those left in Nezuk, in the column, they knew

 5     about a large number of people who disappeared, the whole front of the

 6     column.  That's why I'm interested in whether you had statements of that

 7     kind at all.  Thank you.

 8        A.   On the total amount of this column that left Srebrenica on the

 9     evening of the 11 and the 12, we already talked about it, with an

10     estimate with around 15.000, what is official from the BiH side is that

11     6.000 members of the 28th Division managed to cross the lines in the area

12     of Nezuk, so indeed there will always be a question mark about those who,

13     in that process, missed -- in combat missed by crossing the lines in

14     minefields or in any other combat operation.  This is the reason why

15     the -- I already talked about this.  The only number the criminal

16     investigation takes into account is the number of people who have been

17     found in the primary mass graves that we connect with execution sites and

18     regroupment [sic] points, and later on scientifically connect with those

19     found in the secondary graves and who are coming from these primary

20     graves.  And this is the only number that the criminal investigation

21     takes into account, because this is the number of those we can prove have

22     been under the control of those who had taken them prisoners, the

23     Bosnian Serb Army.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  We'll come back to that later on, but let's

25     go back to my next question, whether in the graves there were those who

Page 1509

 1     were killed in battle and those who were killed otherwise.  We'll come

 2     back to that.  But this is my question:  May we have 1D63 displayed on

 3     our screens, please?  It's a document from the army, BH Army, the Command

 4     of the 2nd Corps, the Security Department, confidential 06101-160-8/95 of

 5     the 10th of August, 1995, and it refers to the assignments.

 6             We still haven't got it up on our screens.  May we have it called

 7     up on e-court, please.

 8             It's come up on our screens in Serbian, but not in English.  And

 9     since I don't have the translation, I'm going to quote:

10             "The statements you sent us --"

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It always takes a certain time that these are

12     brought up on the screen.  Just be a little bit more patient.  You must

13     not quote everything.  It's not necessary.  We have it now on the screen.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   "The statements you sent us," that's what it says in this

17     document, "attached to the above reference letter contain information

18     relating, for the most part, to the transit of the group of combatants

19     and civilians to from Srebrenica to the free territory, and very few or

20     no facts at all about war crimes and the crime of genocide.  According to

21     the guide-lines we have given you, as well as the instructions you

22     received during the lecture delivered on the 3rd of August, 1995, at the

23     Veterans Centre of the 2nd Corps Command, you should have taken

24     statements on the circumstances surrounding the war crimes and crime of

25     genocide."

Page 1510

 1             And that's the end of my quotation from the document.

 2             But he goes on to say:

 3             "In the handouts you received," that is to say, at the lectures,

 4     "contain detailed and easily understandable descriptions of what a

 5     statement relating to these specific circumstances should contain,

 6     starting from personal details of the interviewee, to other intrinsic and

 7     essential elements.  The statements you supplied do not follow these

 8     rules."

 9             In this statement, it goes on to say:

10             "Act in the following sense and carry out the instructions

11     issued."

12             Now, my question to you is this:  When you looked at the

13     statements, were you aware that there was special requirements for those

14     taking statements from the interviewees and the elements that each

15     statement must contain, having to do with the circumstances of war crimes

16     and crimes against humanity?  Thank you.

17        A.   I understand very well the point.  Be certain of one thing.  The

18     only statements that we've ended up taking into consideration are

19     statements of people who were interviewed by ICTY personnel, not by

20     BiH Army, BiH police, or BiH War Crime Commission.  These statements were

21     the basis of identification of persons who we would have an interest to

22     talk with.  And, indeed, the way these statements were taken probably

23     needed some improvement by those who conducted the interview, since they

24     were very short and didn't necessarily enter into details.  The reason

25     why:  These people were systematically re-interviewed by ICTY personnel,

Page 1511

 1     and the information inside the statements was then later the topic of a

 2     focus of the following steps of investigation.  That was to identify the

 3     places where they reported events and analyse these spots in order to

 4     confirm or infirm the credibility of these witnesses.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  Now I have to put another question that

 6     will contain your answer to the first question, because you gave a rather

 7     lengthy answer.

 8             Since you had certain contacts with representatives of the

 9     28th Division, are you aware that on the 3rd of August, 1995, they held

10     this lecture where they issued the instructions on the way to collect

11     information from members of the 28th Division?  In other words, do you

12     know of this, and do you know that there were special instructions given

13     to these people?  Thank you.

14        A.   We had extremely little contact with members of the

15     28th Division, since, as I told you, we probably interviewed two soldiers

16     who made the spear-head and arrived in Tuzla.  For the rest, I didn't

17     know anything about whatever instructions could be given by the 2nd Corps

18     to its members in August.  No, I didn't know.

19        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  Tell me, please, as you were in a position

20     to review a large number of statements, almost all of them, as you said,

21     and you even interviewed some of the Muslims who managed to pull out, in

22     this document it says:

23             "The statements provided do not contain or contain very few facts

24     related to war crimes and the crime of genocide."

25             My question is this:  Are you sure that you actually reviewed a

Page 1512

 1     large number of such statements, and can you recall the date of these

 2     statements referring to the executions?  Thank you.

 3        A.   No short answer possible on this.

 4             The first point:  What is in this letter is a reality, since

 5     those who were at the spear-head of a column could not witness any war

 6     crime because they were in the battle situation, all these crimes

 7     happened in their back, to those who were left behind.  So -- but first

 8     fact.

 9             When -- the second part of your question, please remind me.

10     There was something else.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, the microphone.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] My apologies.

14        Q.   When did you observe that statements do contain information about

15     executions, and up until when were there statements when no such

16     information appeared?  I am referring to the time-frame.  Thank you.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection to compound questions --

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Sorry.  The compound questions are very difficult

20     for even a witness of this calibre.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, could you please always wait until

22     you get the floor.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now you may make your comment.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection to the compound nature of the question.

Page 1513

 1     It's very difficult to pick out the different questions, even for a

 2     witness as experienced as Mr. Ruez.  If we could not put multi-questions

 3     to the witness.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, I think this witness is capable to

 5     deal with difficult questions as well.  And if there are any problems,

 6     you should raise them in cross-examination.

 7             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

 8             THE WITNESS:  Okay, I understand your question, General.

 9             Most of the statements we had access to, this was during the

10     period between 20 July, the date of the arrival of our tiny little team

11     in the Tuzla area, so interview process started some three or four days

12     later.  And we continued this process until, more or less, the 20th of

13     August.  In that time-frame, the police and the War Crime Commission were

14     continuing to take statements, so the main phase was to quickly run

15     through these, indeed, hundreds of pieces of information and extract from

16     them those that we intended to interview as priority witnesses, in order

17     then later, but this was in September, take all this information and try

18     to draw a story through time, what I call the first criminal analysis of

19     the situation.  So most of the key witnesses, indeed - I'm talking about

20     the survivors - were identified and interviewed during that summer, at

21     the exception of one of them, who was one of the survivors of the Kravica

22     warehouse, who could only be interviewed, if I recall well, in April 1996

23     because he was among one of the last groups, part of a prisoner exchange

24     that happened, I think, in February or March 1996.  And I understand

25     also, but this happened after I had left the Tribunal in 2001, that one

Page 1514

 1     additional survivor for the Orahovac site had been identified much later,

 2     and as far as I know he testified in this courtroom a few days ago.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Mr. McCloskey [as interpreted].  I would like to say

 4     this:  The document that I have read out from that you have before you on

 5     the screens was produced on the 10th of August, and you say that you have

 6     completed your interviews by the 28th of August.  Does that mean that all

 7     the statements that you consider relevant were actually compiled between

 8     the 20th of July, up until the 28th of August, as stated here, or did you

 9     obtain them later on from BH organs?  Thank you.

10        A.   No, again I have to insist that the only information we got from

11     BiH authorities were the primary information that they could collect, but

12     our only source -- real source of information, which then we used in

13     order to orientate the investigation on the material aspect, that is,

14     finding crime scenes, is based on the interviews that we took -- we, ICTY

15     investigators, took during that summer.

16        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  Does that relate to the period between the

17     20th of July and the 20th of August?  Thank you.

18        A.   No.  This was, in fact, the first round of interviews that we

19     took, because this interview process lasted during the six years I was at

20     the head of this investigation.  In terms of victims, it lasted until at

21     least the end of 1997, since each time we could come across useful

22     information, we investigated this information if it was worth the effort,

23     and after that the interview process slipped more on to interviewing

24     BiH police and military personnel.

25        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  As I've said, this document was produced on

Page 1515

 1     the 10th of August, 1995.  And judging by the statements that we have

 2     received, I see that the statements -- only the statements written after

 3     that time, the word "war crimes" and "genocide" is mentioned that was

 4     contained in the statement.  Was it commonplace for individuals who are

 5     not educated and who do not have any experience with international

 6     criminal law to use such terms, because they always indicate whether some

 7     act was a war crime or a crime of genocide?  Thank you.

 8             If the question is not clear, I can repeat it.

 9        A.   I think it's clear.  I mean, what is clear to me is that this

10     document is probably written by the legal officer of the 2nd Corps, so

11     this man has some notions of legal qualifications, so war crimes,

12     genocide, things like this.  I did not see this type of rhetoric in the

13     statements of those that we have personally interviewed, though at that

14     time genocide was a quite common notion, since everyone was throwing it

15     in the face of the other one that genocide had been committed against

16     him.  So it was a very common rhetoric even at that time, and it had

17     become even worse in the years following the end of this conflict.

18        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  We have heard evidence and have seen

19     statements from that period, and we see that from the 10th of August, the

20     word "genocide" is used by the individuals who provided the statements.

21     If necessary, I will show it to the -- I will point it out to the

22     Trial Chamber, based on the statements that we've heard and evidence that

23     we've heard from witnesses who appeared so far.

24             Now, tell us, please, what are the -- we see that various organs

25     of the BH government sought this information.  What are those organs?

Page 1516

 1     Could you tell us, please?

 2        A.   Again, I have to insist that the only investigation and the only

 3     witness statements we have relied on were those of people we have

 4     interviewed ourselves, meaning members of the Office of the Prosecutor.

 5     And to repeat again, the providers of witness statements that we used in

 6     order to fine-tune who would be the most interesting ones, they were two

 7     main sort of information; BiH police and mostly the War Crime Commission.

 8     We had a few -- a handful of statements of BiH soldiers, a handful, and

 9     who had nothing to report because they were at the head of a column that

10     went through Nezuk.  So since they never ended up prisoner, they had

11     nothing to say about any war crimes.

12        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  My question related to the time-frame and

13     the pace at which you received these.  And you said that you did not

14     receive them for the security organs, but rather from the MUP and the

15     commission, but here we can see that the security organs were the ones

16     who actually determined how this whole process was going to go on.

17        A.   This is your conclusion, General.  I cannot comment this.  Again,

18     the 2nd Corps was not our point of contact at that time.  The first

19     contact with them was at least two and a half years after that.

20        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  You've stated here that 6.000 fighters

21     managed to cross over from Srebrenica to Tuzla, and probably that was a

22     significant pool from which you tried to obtain information, which would

23     mean that the security organs had to assist in that work because that was

24     the largest number of people that you referred to that you interviewed,

25     or do you also refer to the ones who did not actually manage to break

Page 1517

 1     through?  Thank you.

 2        A.   No, the first part of your statement is totally incorrect.  This

 3     was not the main pool of information.  This was the most microscopic pool

 4     of information, since, I repeat, those who have managed to went through

 5     the lines are those who have nothing to say to people investigating the

 6     fate of the missing.  The military operation -- the small military

 7     operation part of this case is, again, not the focus of investigation and

 8     these people who are not, far from it, among the interesting witnesses

 9     for this case.

10        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  We've seen a video here shown by

11     Mr. McCloskey when he said that you would actually comment on the video,

12     and on it we could see a fighter who had managed to break through and who

13     said that he had run into four different ambushes.  And how is it that

14     there is no mention of that here, since you say that there were 3.000

15     individuals involved?

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the accused please repeat the last part

17     of his question.

18             THE WITNESS:  Yeah, again, reconstructing the military history

19     of --

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Ruez, could you please pause a moment.

21             THE WITNESS:  Yes.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The last part of the question was not interpreted

23     properly.  Mr. Tolimir, could you please repeat the last part of your

24     question.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will try to

Page 1518

 1     reconstruct my question.

 2             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   So we've seen a video here --

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, only the last part, only the last

 5     part.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   -- showing a soldier, who said that he had run into four

 8     ambushes, and that there were 3.000 killed.  Were you interested in the

 9     number of missing persons, because these 3.000 would be missing people?

10     Thank you.

11        A.   Okay.  Again, I repeat that the military history of what happened

12     between -- during the breakthrough of an armed part of a column is not

13     the goal of the investigation, of the criminal investigation.  But,

14     indeed, this soldier is certainly right.  They went through several

15     ambushes, military operations, not in the frame of investigation, and

16     that, indeed, I concede that among the 8.000 missing people, those who

17     will not be found in the graves will be considered as missing in action.

18     So, again, I attract your attention on the number of those who are found

19     inside the graves, who are identified by DNA, and subtracting this final

20     number to the total number of missing people registered in the ICRC book,

21     will give you an approximate of those who have to be considered missing

22     in action.

23        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  Was the purpose of the investigation to

24     determine what happened with these 3.000 men who were killed in ambushes?

25     Thank you.

Page 1519

 1        A.   The assessment of this soldier on tape saying it's 3.000 people

 2     killed is more or less to be taken with the same caution than when the

 3     Bosnian Serb soldier, at the bottom of a hill, says that they captured

 4     5.000 on that spot that day.  It's impossible to know if these people

 5     have a real precise assessment of these numbers.  This is why, again, I

 6     will repeat it probably every half an hour during two days, the important

 7     number in this case is the people who have been found in the mass graves

 8     and that we can prove they have gone through a cold-blooded execution

 9     process, organised and systematic.  And at this point, if my information

10     is correct, I think we arrive at something like 6.400.

11        Q.   Mr. Ruez, my question is:  Was it in the interest of the

12     investigation to determine what happened with the bodies of those who had

13     been killed in ambushes?  Thank you.

14        A.   The places we have found and in which the victims have been found

15     buried are locations very nearby concentration spots of prisoners, and we

16     also know from the engineer records the pace at which these people have

17     been buried.  So if you look more in detail the situation, you could

18     imply that in these mass graves, we have found, in fact, people who have

19     been killed in action.  In that case, indeed, the events at Nezuk,

20     ongoing combat or little time of no combat, doesn't make it credible that

21     these people are in the graves we have opened.

22        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  Tell us, please, where, then, were those

23     people who were killed in ambush, in combat, on minefields, where were

24     they buried?  They were not buried in the territory of the BH Army, not

25     in Republika Srpska, you say they were not found in the mass graves.

Page 1520

 1     Tell us and tell this Court, where are they?  Thank you.

 2        A.   You say that the graves are not in the Republika Srpska.  I

 3     cannot confirm that.  Either they have left -- been left on the surface,

 4     and this the Commission for Missing People and Exhumation of

 5     Bosniak Government could probably give some answers on this.  But the

 6     fact is that finding graves whereof cleaning of the terrain has taken in

 7     the place following the 16 of July, has not been, indeed, a point of

 8     research for this case.  We were focusing finding mass graves with

 9     victims of execution, not with victims of combat operations.

10             And I will also have to add that all questions regarding the

11     detailed findings inside the graves, I won't be the relevant person to be

12     asked about this, since there are two other experts who testify about the

13     mass grave findings; Professor Richard Wright for all what is the

14     pathology aspects and also my colleague Dean Manning for all what is the

15     results of police labs on the findings.

16        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  I read out a portion where you talked about

17     the missing persons, and now all of a sudden you are not interested in

18     the missing persons unless they were in mass graves or murdered in some

19     kind of mass crime.  In the same way, this statement of the security

20     organs only focus on war crimes and crime of genocide.  They do not try

21     to establish the people who were killed in combat operations.  So now

22     tell us, please, how is this Court and how are we to determine what

23     happened with the bodies of those who were killed in action?  Thank you.

24        A.   I think it's the responsibility of every government to try to

25     find the bodies of his own soldiers killed in any military operation, but

Page 1521

 1     I can confirm that it is not the purpose and not the goal of a criminal

 2     investigation team to try to identify people who are missing in action.

 3     Our goal is to try to find out if victims say the truth, reconstruct a

 4     chronology of events, prove what has happened, and try to identify the

 5     perpetrators to bring them to a courtroom, not identifying missing

 6     soldiers killed in action.

 7        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  You say that as an investigator.  Security

 8     organs also say that they're only interested in war crimes and genocide.

 9     Does that mean that nobody actually investigated how those who went

10     missing in action were killed and that the large number of them actually

11     were killed there, rather than what you're doing, placing them in mass

12     graves in large numbers?  Thank you.

13        A.   It is not a question for me, General.  It's a question for the

14     BiH authorities, who try to find out the fate of their own missing

15     soldiers.

16        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  It's not a question for you; right.  Now,

17     would this be a question for you:  Along with the communication route, in

18     your statement you say from Konjevic Polje part of the people were killed

19     not in fighting and not in executions.  So you don't know where to put

20     them, which group.  Where did you find them, in mass graves, and which

21     number -- which group did you assigned them to, and how many of them were

22     there?  If you can tell me that.  Thank you.

23        A.   It might be a little bug in the translation, because I read that

24     it had said that at Konjevic Polje, part of the people were killed not in

25     fighting and not in execution.  I don't understand.  It's either one or

Page 1522

 1     the other one.  If not, it's a natural cause of death.  There might be a

 2     little translation problem, I would believe.

 3        Q.   Mr. Ruez, it's not a problem of the translation.  The problem is

 4     that in the interview that you gave to "The Monitor," you said that you

 5     don't know where to place part of the people who were neither executed,

 6     nor, in your opinion, were killed in battle; how to classify them, you

 7     didn't know.  Can you explain where we can classify them, then?  And it's

 8     document 1D60, so may we have called up 1D60.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm just going to object.  May the witness be

11     allowed -- when something that specific is referred to, if the witness

12     could have a chance to look at -- and I think he's caught that, so

13     I think I can withdraw my objection.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  May we have page 25

16     displayed, please, from "The Monitor," and I'm going to quote part of the

17     statement, as requested by the Prosecution.  Thank you.

18             We see the statement on our screens.  It was given to

19     "The Monitor," and the Prosecutor disclosed it to us.  And in the second

20     column, paragraph 2, it says, and I quote --

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, may I ask you, is there an English

22     translation?  Do you know that?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

24             We submitted this for translation a long time ago.  It's with the

25     Interpretation Service, but we haven't received the translation of it

Page 1523

 1     yet.  So I don't know.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In that case, you should read out the relevant

 3     portion, but please indicate very precisely which part you are reading.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 5             I'm reading the portion of the text marked on page 0603-8344,

 6     lines 2 -- or, rather, the second column, second paragraph, and I'm going

 7     to quote that and read it out:

 8             "There is a specific feature.  One of the graves in Glogova

 9     contains the bodies of people who were killed along the road from

10     Konjevic Polje to Kravica.  The Serbs will say that they were killed in

11     battle, whereas, in fact, they were killed as soon as they set foot on

12     the asphalt road.  This was not a combat situation, and neither were they

13     prisoners.  Quite simply, they killed them as soon as they set foot on

14     the road, and we're going to add them to the find number."

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Now, my question to you is this:  Since these people were buried

17     in the Glogova grave, how many of them are there?  Thank you?

18        A.   Glogova is the most difficult crime scene in terms of mass graves

19     because, indeed, the persons buried at Glogova have three origins.  One

20     origin of them is the burial spot of most of those who have been killed

21     in Kravica.  I say "most" because initially the first truck-loads were

22     taken to a little hill nearby and dumped alongside the edge of this hill.

23     So most of the people killed in Kravica were shifted towards Glogova.

24     Unfortunately, also at Glogova were buried bodies of those who were

25     killed once they had reached the asphalt road, an unknown number of

Page 1524

 1     people.  And the third origin, unfortunately, is also those who have been

 2     killed in Bratunac town.  So there is a mixture of origins of bodies in

 3     this grave that make it, for example, in the future impossible to know

 4     very precisely how many people have been killed in Kravica, because the

 5     transfer of the bodies of Glogova we know is south of Srebrenica, but

 6     even once all the exhumations would have been finalised, it would not be

 7     able to provide the number of those killed in Kravica because of these

 8     various origin of bodies that cannot be separated each from another.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  And did you count them -- or, rather, did

10     you add them to the number and include them in the number of those who

11     were killed?

12        A.   Yes, all those who have been found at Glogova were included in

13     the final number, indeed.

14        Q.   Thank you.  And for their killing, is it those who should be --

15     who stand accused here or those who actually killed them?  Who should be

16     held responsible?  Thank you.

17        A.   As you know, General, the only people siting in this courtroom

18     are those who are considered the utmost responsible.  The other ones,

19     they have to be sent to the State Court in Sarajevo.

20        Q.   Thank you.  I just asked you:  Who should be tried for their

21     death, those who are accused of having conducting the execution or those

22     who took part in battle pursuant to commands from their superior

23     commander?

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, this is not an appropriate question.

25             THE WITNESS:  It's a question of command responsibility.  I'm not

Page 1525

 1     tasked to deal with command responsibility.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Carry on, please.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since the witness

 4     does not want to give us the number of those killed or who died, whereas

 5     I am being accused of those killings, and that's why I am asking what the

 6     number of those killed was and who should be held responsible for those

 7     killings.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think you know very well that at the end of the

 9     day, this Chamber will consider that question, and not the witness.  The

10     witness may answer your questions about the number of missing or killed

11     people, but not the personal responsibility.  This is not a question to

12     deal with during the cross-examination.

13             Please carry on.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

15             And thank you, Mr. Ruez.  I'm not holding it against you.  I am

16     grateful to you and thanking you, and I'm not angry because you put

17     forward this dilemma, because it is really -- it really is a dilemma.  So

18     thank you for raising it.  And I would like to ask you a question which

19     is of vital interest to the Defence.

20             For example, in the Krstic trial, in your testimony you put

21     forward a number of interesting pieces of information which were not

22     presented here by the Prosecution at this particular trial, and the

23     Defence considers that they are of great importance to establishing the

24     relevant facts in this trial.

25             Now may we have 1D100 called up, please, and shown to the

Page 1526

 1     witness.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, to avoid further problems, are you

 3     tendering this document, the interview in "The Monitor," as an exhibit?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, we are

 5     tendering this document into evidence, and we shall be discussing it

 6     further.  I just asked a question linked to the problem that we're

 7     discussing now.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection to this coming in.  It looks like it's

10     a question-and-answer -- it looks like a statement and should not -- I'm

11     not aware of any rules that allow such a statement or even a newspaper

12     article to come in as evidence.  He's used -- the party's used that, and

13     that is part of the record.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This interview in "The Monitor" without English

15     translation will be marked for identification so that if it will be used

16     during this cross-examination or with other witnesses, we know what was

17     it about.

18             Mr. McCloskey.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Ms. Stewart was able to find an English version

20     of that and has sent it to the Defence.  So if it's necessary, we can get

21     it up on the screen again.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I appreciate that.

23             Just a moment.  We would like to have the English version on the

24     screen.

25             We have this "Monitor" article on the screen in the English

Page 1527

 1     version.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Ms. Stewart reminded me that I was being a bit

 3     optimistic.  It's got to get in the e-court system.  Apparently she

 4     pulled it off our system.  And we can get one down here very quickly and

 5     get it on the old-fashioned ELMO, but it will be just a few minutes.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 7             Mr. McCloskey, then the Chamber will mark that for

 8     identification, pending translation, and then we will deal with that

 9     later.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  That would be Exhibit D31, marked for

11     identification, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

13             In the meantime, we have another document on the screen.  Please

14     carry on, Mr. Tolimir.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

16             I'd like the statement that was on e-court, 1D63, to be tendered

17     into evidence, please.  Thank you.  I mean the statement given by the

18     security organs that I quoted from earlier on.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.  We were very busy with "The Monitor"

20     interview, we didn't realise that you had put any question to this

21     witness related to this transcript on the screen.

22             Mr. McCloskey.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think he's asked for the BiH document into

24     evidence, and we have no objection to that, if that's what he was talking

25     about, the document that wanted a little more detail in the reports of

Page 1528

 1     the people coming through the column.

 2             And Ms. Stewart's figured out a way to show us the English

 3     version of "Monitor" as well, if that is needed.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 5             Any further comment, Mr. Tolimir?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 7             I've already asked for the next document, the one from the Krstic

 8     trial, and it is 1D100.  May that be called up, please, several pages

 9     from the Krstic trial related to --

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you are ahead of the proceedings.

11     The statement of the transcript we have on the screen at the moment, you

12     have tendered that, and the Chamber will receive it.

13                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think we have figured out the situation.  The

15     document we saw first was the document of the 10th of August, 1995,

16     Command of the 2nd Corps of the BH Army.  That will be received.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  It will be D32, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

19             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

21             We have before us 1D100.  It is the transcript from the Krstic

22     trial, relating to the events and investigation linked to Bare and

23     Kamenica, those two places.

24             Now, first, on page 589, you say the following:

25             "I would also like to mark the village of Bare which many people

Page 1529

 1     have been pointing to who had knowledge of the area, know a little bit

 2     where they were going, and not only following the person in front of

 3     them."

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Now, my question to you is this.  I quoted what you said, and now

 6     here is my question:  Can you, on the one of the previous maps, draw in

 7     the village of Bare, the location of the village of Bare?  And perhaps

 8     the best map would be the map on page 23 of your book, which is 65 ter

 9     01450, page 23.  It's a Prosecution exhibit.  Thank you.

10             Thank you.  Here we have the map on our screens.  It's 65 ter

11     01450, a Prosecution exhibit, and the page is 23.

12             Mr. Ruez, would you please mark the position of Bare, the Bare

13     locality?

14        A.   To point precisely, Bare, as understand on such map, would be

15     difficult.  But, nevertheless, as we said, area of regroupment [sic] was

16     the area of [indiscernible] Jaglici, then the escape route was going,

17     let's say, roughly north in the direction of Kravica, and behind the

18     hills in the area of Kravica is the area of Bare and Kamenica.  And,

19     indeed, these are locations where ambushes took place, at 12.00 in the

20     evening -- afternoon/evening.

21        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Would you mark that?

23             THE WITNESS:  You want me to mark it?  Okay.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  As accurately as possible.

25             THE WITNESS:  Roughly, the escape route [marks].  And the area we

Page 1530

 1     are talking about would be somewhere in this area here [marks].

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You mean by that the location of Bare?

 3             THE WITNESS:  It's the rough area that I circled, Bare/Kamenica.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 5             Mr. Tolimir.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  Would you mark in Bare again and put "B" or

 8     "Bare."  Write in "Bare" or the letter B on this map, too, please.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before we go on, are you tendering for marking

10     the first one?  It will be received.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D33, Your Honour.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Will that include the marking by

13     Mr. Ruez of the place and the route?

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The original map was already received.  The map

15     with the markings is now an exhibit.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  It didn't say "Bare" on

17     it, but the transcript explains it all.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Now, on page 589, lines 22 and 23, and I'm referring to the

20     transcript from the Krstic trial - may we go back to that, please - you

21     state, and I quote, these are your words:

22             "Bare was also a place where there were ambushes and where there

23     was shelling.  Many people were wounded on this territory."

24             My question to you now is this:  Can you tell us, roughly

25     speaking, how many witnesses linked to the -- that were linked to the

Page 1531

 1     event around Bare village?  Thank you.

 2        A.   I could not answer precisely, because this is part of

 3     reconstruction to understand the chronology of events.  But since it is

 4     ambush/shelling on a column with mixed civilian and military, it is

 5     considered by the investigation as a military operation.  This is why

 6     there was no specific focus assigned this one, but the situation it

 7     generated is still interesting for the continuity of what happened after

 8     that because it is these ambushes that also demoralised the people who

 9     were left behind.  And in the process of all these calls to surrender,

10     that happened from the asphalt road at 13, in the morning, most of the

11     people who were on the hills decided to surrender.

12        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  Can you tell us where these people were

13     buried, the ones who were killed in the ambushes in the general area

14     around Bare?  Thank you.

15        A.   As far as we know, these people were not buried; they were left

16     as surface remains.  There was a Norwegian team in 1996 who, under the

17     umbrella of Ms. Elizabeth Rainer [phoen], went to this area in order to

18     locate and start picking up these surface remains.  I don't remember how

19     many they did collect.  The process, anyhow, were continued much later,

20     and this area -- in this area the surface remains were -- I mean, I don't

21     know if all of them were taken for sure, but some of them were found and

22     taken by the BiH commission.  But there was left there surface remains,

23     as far as we know.

24        Q.   Thank you.  You didn't answer my first question.  How many

25     witnesses were there testifying about this event?  Thank you.

Page 1532

 1        A.   None of these people, as far as I know, has been called as a

 2     witness, at least not on this point, in this Tribunal.  On top of my

 3     head, I would say that the spotting of these ambushes came through

 4     summary testimonies of maybe 10 people in a bunch of these few hundreds

 5     that we analysed during the summer, I mean, 10 who gave detailed and who

 6     focused on this because they experienced the events.  It started with a

 7     tree that exploded.  That was the start of the ambush, the signal point.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And did anybody testify in the Krstic trial?

 9        A.   Specifically on this aspect, I have no idea.  I don't know.

10        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  Now, in the Krstic trial, on page 590, on

11     line 3, you speak about a precise period of time, and you say at noon the

12     head of the column was cut at Konjevic Polje and the entire area blocked.

13     Can you tell us what date that is, and describe the area on that day at

14     precisely that hour, 12.00, because you weren't there yourself?  So at

15     12.00 in the evening the head of the column was already passing through

16     the intersection of Konjevic Polje, et cetera?

17        A.   The spear-head of the column passed Konjevic Polje during the

18     night between the 12 and the 13.  The very specific hour, I don't remind

19     where I got it from, and I don't know if this would be 12/13 which would

20     not be the case or 12.00 meaning midnight, so somewhere during that

21     night.

22        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  And is what I quoted correct, from the

23     point of view of transcript 590, line 3, you referred to 12.00 in the

24     afternoon, at noon, and the head of the column being at Konjevic Polje?

25        A.   Yeah, the head of the column probably arrived around noon, since

Page 1533

 1     they passed in the evening, so they probably scrambled in that place at

 2     12.00 in the evening.  I mean, again, this is more part of the fate of

 3     the front of a column, who suffered no specific problems when they

 4     crossed; rather, those who were left behind are the ones who became then

 5     the focus of investigation.

 6        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  On page 590, on lines 10 to 14, you talk

 7     about night fighting, and I quote you:

 8             "Some managed to break through during the night, but as you will

 9     later see on photographs of this area, this is open ground and it is very

10     difficult to cross because it had been blocked by soldiers."

11             Thank you.  So my question is:  Could you show us where the

12     blocking forces were, relating to the locality in Bare where you found

13     those bodies?  Thank you.

14        A.   It's two different areas.  In the area south, General, the

15     blocking position, that was at Konjevic Polje, where the

16     5th Engineer Unit is, where you have the line between Konjevic Polje and

17     South Nova Kasaba, where the 65th Protection Regiment was.  I mean, this

18     is a different area than Bare.  The problem that faced the people at 13,

19     in the morning, who were in this area of Konjevic Polje -- east of

20     Konjevic Polje is, indeed, having soldiers along this road made it

21     impossible for them to try to attempt any crossing.  The reason why,

22     there was the surrender process at 13, in the morning.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Ruez, could you please clarify.  On page 35,

24     line 12, at the end, you were quoted as "... faced the people at 13, in

25     the morning."

Page 1534

 1             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Yes, after the night of 12 or the 13, once

 2     the spear-head had gone through this area.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That means you were talking about the 13th day of

 4     that month and not 13 hours?

 5             THE WITNESS:  Sorry, 13 July, 13 July, in the morning,

 6     absolutely, yes, yes.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 8             I think, Mr. Tolimir, this is the appropriate time for the first

 9     break.

10             We adjourn now for half an hour and resume quarter past 4.00.

11                           --- Recess taken at 3.49 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, continue, please.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

15        Q.   We left off with the question -- or request from Mr. Ruez to draw

16     the area where the blocking was, the blocking forces were.

17             Could we please see document 651402, so -- that that's a page

18     from that book that we mentioned earlier, so that the witness can draw or

19     indicate on the map where that area which was blocked in Bare was.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the accused please repeat the document

21     number.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please repeat the number of that

23     document.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 1450, page 23 of the book,

25     the book of maps.

Page 1535

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Just to clarify, this is the -- you may remember,

 2     the big book of documents and maps -- or, actually, pictures and maps

 3     that Mr. Ruez had.  Yes, you've got it.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We are very well prepared, Mr. McCloskey.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I thought he was talking about the map book.  It

 6     was my problem.

 7             THE WITNESS:  So two different things, if I understand well.

 8     Again, I'm going to mark the location -- the rough location of the ambush

 9     of the 12 in the area of Bare/Kamenica, which is, in fact, an area south

10     of Kravica.  So roughly -- roughly, I would spot it in this area [marks].

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12        Q.   Would you please now use a different colour pen to indicate the

13     blocking forces and which direction they were advancing from?  Could you

14     just indicate, in a different colour and indicating with arrows, the

15     direction of their movement?

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The pen will now have a different colour.

17             THE WITNESS:  So also rough position, because this is part of a

18     military analysis and there is another person who will come and testify

19     about that part.  But roughly the blocking position is along the road

20     Bratunac-Konjevic Polje [marks] and going south towards Nova Kasaba.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22        Q.   While we still have the map, could you tell us, was it possible

23     to observe the sector of Bare from all those positions along the blue

24     line that you indicated, and could they actually fire?  Was there direct

25     fire vision, as it were, from all of these positions, or did they have to

Page 1536

 1     use some indirect way of shooting, firing?

 2        A.   I understand your point.  Again, this is a military aspect in

 3     which we didn't enter in depth.  What the people say was that there were

 4     some forces in the area, indeed, who could observe and fire at them,

 5     though certainly not from the asphalt road, because the asphalt road is

 6     located behind the -- behind the hill, so impossible to see.  Then the

 7     fact is that it's up to a more military person to talk about this, but

 8     once an area is spotted, artillery can shoot behind hills.  But, again,

 9     this is part of the military aspect of the events in that place.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  On page 594 --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you switch on your microphone.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I would like to

14     tender this map into evidence.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D34, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Please carry on.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19        Q.   Mr. Ruez, on page 594 of your testimony in the Krstic case, lines

20     18 through 24, you say:

21             "Here we will be shown some video footage which begins from the

22     spot where the ambush was."

23             Had we had occasion to see this video footage during your

24     testimony on the 29th and 30th of March in this courtroom, perhaps some

25     clarifications would not be necessary.  But in this way, we would have to

Page 1537

 1     refer to relevant pages in the Krstic testimony.  That's on page 599,

 2     lines 8 through 17, and I will read now.

 3             Could we pull it up on the screens?

 4             You said the following:

 5             "This area was processed in 1996 by a team of experts from

 6     Finland who worked there in the area in 1996, completely independent of

 7     our own activities.  They collected the human remains, but it is

 8     important to mention that 600 bodies were found in this area.  These were

 9     bodies of victims who had been killed in combat during -- in ambushes,

10     during shellings, or in other -- under other circumstances that are

11     impossible to determine in view of the information that we have, and

12     I think that for us it is impossible to determine whether they were

13     killed in battle or in some other way."

14             My question for you is:  Do you still maintain today what you

15     said then?

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The problem, Mr. Tolimir, we don't have this

17     portion of the transcript on the screen, and there is some doubt if there

18     is a page 599 in the English version.  Could you clarify that?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

20             You have before you the English version, and I read out a portion

21     of the B/C/S version, 599, lines 8 through 17, and I quoted the relevant

22     parts from the Krstic trial.  Thank you.  If he can recall, and if not,

23     we can try and see it again.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There is no page 599, and we don't have this

25     portion on the screen in the English version.

Page 1538

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  It could be page 594 in

 2     the English, the last answer on the page.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I will

 4     check now why you do not have the right page, because this is in e-court

 5     because this was a transcript from the Krstic trial.

 6             I apologise.  It should be page 596 and not 599.  Thank you.  596

 7     of the transcript.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Lines 8 through 17.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Could the witness read this out in English and answer my

12     question?  Does he still -- would he still claim the same thing today?

13     That's -- in English, that's pages 23 through 25 -- lines 23 through 25.

14        A.   Yes, and --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You have it in front of you.

16             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  I will just rely on, anyhow, the summary the

17     general made.  And, yes, indeed, I fully confirm what I said at that

18     time.  The only thing is that I do not have a recollection now of a

19     precise number of surface remains that were collected by this, indeed,

20     Finnish team.  I thought I said "Norwegian" sometime ago.  It was a

21     mistake.  It was, indeed, a Finnish team.  Yes, indeed, they were totally

22     independent of our work.  And in addition, I have to say that the number

23     of bodies that they have collected doesn't figure in the body count that

24     we make, because, indeed, I confirm that these are surface remains, so we

25     cannot know in what conditions they have died.  So we consider them as

Page 1539

 1     war casualties, so they don't enter in a criminal case.  And these bodies

 2     have been left there.  There was no cleaning of the terrain.  They have

 3     not been buried in any other spot.  They have been left on the ground.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could we turn to the next page in English,

 5     please.

 6             Carry on, please.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Ruez, would you agree with me that I quoted your words

10     correctly, as recorded in the transcript in the Krstic case?  You said

11     there:

12             "It is important to stress that 600 bodies were collected here."

13             Thank you.

14        A.   Yes, absolutely.  Yes, sure.

15        Q.   You also said in the next sentence:

16             "These were the bodies of the victims who were killed in combat"?

17        A.   Yes, since we again -- since we do not prove they have been

18     murdered, we have to consider they were killed in combat.

19        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  These 600 bodies that were collected by

20     this Finnish team, were they the total number of those who are frequently

21     mentioned, in the context of Srebrenica, as those who were missing?

22        A.   These people most certainly are part of those who are on the

23     missing list of approximately 8.000 people, most probably, yes, and this

24     is the reason why I always insist, by -- when we give figures, only

25     talking about the people whose fate we can reconstruct and have been put

Page 1540

 1     in a detention centre, executed on a nearby execution field, buried in a

 2     primary grave, unburied and taken to a secondary grave.  The only figure

 3     we rely on is this figure of people we can prove have been assassinated.

 4     All the others, even though we also know that during the cleaning of a

 5     terrain operation, probably some people were also executed on the spot,

 6     but these ones, we don't count them.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  You said, in the Krstic transcript, these were the

 8     bodies of the victims -- of people who were killed in combat, in ambush

 9     operations, or shelling operations.  Do you still stand by what you said

10     then?

11        A.   Absolutely, because again people on which we have any doubt on

12     the cause of death, we will consider them as having been killed in

13     action.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Should these people who were killed in action be on

15     the list of those for which the accused before this Tribunal are charged,

16     or should that number be decreased by 600?  Thank you.

17        A.   Again, I insist on the fact that the only number that we should

18     use is the number of people we have determined their fate.  So people

19     that ultimately -- if you would add those found in primary mass graves

20     and who have been left there, in addition to all those who have been

21     exhumed from the secondary site that we can connect to these primary

22     sites, this gives a figure.  This is still not the total figure, because

23     there are still secondary graves that we know are linked to this case and

24     the bodies have still not yet been exhumed, so it is still not a final

25     number.  But for sure from the missing -- from a total list of the

Page 1541

 1     missing, those who have to be considered killed in action have to be

 2     retrieved from the total list.  Yes, these are the math [Realtime

 3     transcript read in error "on maps"].

 4        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  I wanted to hear your opinion about the

 5     transcript.  So these people should be removed from the total number of

 6     victims and from -- and they should not be the victims for which the

 7     accused are charged before this Tribunal.

 8             Now, could we please see 1D60, page 2 of this interview that you

 9     gave to "The Monitor."  And in the B/C/S version, that's on page 3.

10        A.   I would just need to correct in the transcript, line 17.  It's

11     not:  "Yes, they are on the maps," I said:  "Yes, these are the math,"

12     mathematics.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In fact, line 19.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 25 of "The Monitor," which is

15     page 3 in e-court.

16             Thank you.  Could we now take a look at the third column,

17     paragraph 2, where Mr. Rene's words are quoted, and you say the

18     following, I quote:

19             "For those victims in the woods, we have to count that they were

20     killed in action.  We know that there were clean-up operations or mop-up

21     operations, and each group -- and every group that was taken prisoner up

22     until after July 18th was systematically executed on the spot.  For this,

23     we have to rely only on witnesses, without any forensic findings.  We --

24     for the most part, we believe witnesses, but if we cannot prove what they

25     say, we do not use their testimony.  That is why we consider that the

Page 1542

 1     large number of those deaths in the woods is actually lost for us."

 2             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   So when you say it's lost for you, what, specifically, do you

 4     mean by that?

 5        A.   I cannot certify these were my precise words, but what it means

 6     is that if we do an honest assessment of the situation, I repeat that

 7     those who we cannot prove that have been plugged in the organised

 8     extermination process, they are, in bracket, "lost for the case," since

 9     we cannot count these people as having been assassinated.  This is in

10     bracket what the expression "lost" means.  They are lost for the

11     Prosecution, let's say.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Could you tell me this, then:  In the area of responsibility of

15     the Zvornik Brigade, were there combat operations or was there any

16     fighting between the brigade units and the column that was trying to

17     break through towards Baljkovica and Tuzla, and did you investigate that?

18     That's my second question.  Thank you.

19        A.   Though this is in the area of knowledge of another expert of the

20     Prosecution, Mr. Butler, yes, I can confirm, indeed, that I have

21     knowledge that around 15 and 16 mainly, maybe also maybe 17, there were

22     combat operations in that area, because this is in the vicinity of a

23     location, Nezuk, where the column crossed the lines towards

24     Bosniak-Muslim-held territory.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Mindua has a question for the witness.

Page 1543

 1             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, I have a question on

 2     this matter.

 3             The bodies of people who were -- who died during military

 4     operations, during combat, and persons who would have been killed later

 5     on, my question is this:  Do you have any form of certainty concerning

 6     the fact that during the burial in graves, in the first primary ones and

 7     then in the secondary ones, wasn't there also -- weren't there also some

 8     bodies of combat operations which would also have been buried there?

 9     Combat remains, I think, is -- are you absolutely certain that only the

10     people who were killed after combat were buried in the primary and

11     secondary graves?

12             THE WITNESS:  When you look at the dates of the organised killing

13     process, you can observe that it starts the 14.  Burial at the first

14     execution site starts at 13, in the evening.  Burial there is finalised

15     the 15.  Then the burial process goes on towards the north, continues

16     with 16, and the final stage is after the execution the 16 at the

17     Branjevo Farm and the Pilica Dom, where the exhumation work is finalised

18     with 17.  So, indeed, as all this happens as even the Zvornik Brigade

19     commander says and wrote, that he had to deal with two situations at

20     once, one is combat operation, second is dealing with all these

21     prisoners.  It would be extremely hard to imagine that at the same time

22     the Bosnian Serb Army is confronting this column, they also go on the

23     battle-field to collect dead enemy soldiers and then ship them to these

24     execution sites.

25             As an example, very close to the Orahovac site there is a little

Page 1544

 1     path going towards some fields, and approximately at 150 metres away from

 2     the execution site, when we arrived there, there was a dead body.  In

 3     fact, there was a skeleton.  And this skeleton, though it was very close

 4     to the initial burial site, has not been picked up, and the local farmer

 5     drove on these bones probably twice a day.  So my assumption is that no

 6     dead body was collected in that vicinity to be put in the graves during

 7     the material time-frame, that makes it extremely difficult to think that

 8     it happened.  And in relation to that, I think that the records of the

 9     Engineering Unit of the Zvornik Brigade, there is absolutely no record of

10     collecting bodies in this area away from the execution sites.

11             I hope my answer is clear enough.  I don't know.

12             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely, your answer is

13     very clear.  We're just waiting for the end of the translation.  Thank

14     you.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now Judge Nyambe has a question for you.

16             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Right.  I just need some clarification.  I think

17     it's page 45.  In your response to Judge Mindua, you say:

18             "And this skeleton, although it was very close to the initial

19     burial site, has not been picked up, and the local farmer drove on these

20     bones probably twice a day."

21             You say that as a fact or you are presuming that this happened?

22             THE WITNESS:  We found this body when we did the first survey of

23     this area.  That was in April 1996.  With a little team who was present

24     with me was Professor [indiscernible], a pathologist, and he's the one

25     who looked at these bones who, indeed, were -- I mean, I think we have a

Page 1545

 1     photograph of that, but who was lying on this path, and you had the

 2     traces of a little vehicle who was probably going back and forth along

 3     this little path to go to some field, and no one ever even thought

 4     picking up these bones and pushing them aside, even without talking about

 5     burial.

 6             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Then how do you link what you have just said with

 7     the continuation of your statement:

 8             "... so my assumption is that the dead body was collected in that

 9     vicinity to be put in the graves during the material time-frame"?

10             THE WITNESS:  No, I said exactly the opposite.  I said that my

11     assumption is that no dead body was collected in this area to be put in

12     this grave where only those who have been executed on the spot have been

13     buried.

14             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Okay, thanks.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

17        Q.   Mr. Ruez, the victims from the combat in the area of

18     responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade, do you count them as those killed,

19     the ones that you found in primary and secondary graves, or do you

20     subtract them from the total number of killed because they were killed in

21     combat?  Thank you.

22        A.   Definitely, yes.  Again and again, I can only repeat that the

23     figure that we can take into consideration to have the assessment of a

24     total number of people who went through this organised killing process

25     are the ones that we can make the addition from grave after grave.

Page 1546

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Ruez, can you then tell me, how many were there

 2     killed in combat while a column was breaking through from Srebrenica to

 3     Kladanj, through the area of responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade?

 4     Thank you.

 5        A.   No, I can't, for the simple reason that the exhumation process of

 6     some of these graves that we know are linked with the execution process

 7     are not exhumed yet, so we cannot say how many people in total have been

 8     assassinated since we have not finalised the exhumation process at this

 9     point still in 2010.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Nyambe.

11             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Yes.  When you say -- thank you, Judge.  When you

12     say the exhumation has not been finalised, do you mean it is continuing?

13             THE WITNESS:  I hope it is.  Since 2001, this process is under

14     the responsibility of BiH, and it goes at a very, very slow pace since

15     nine years, though all the sites had been handed over, with all the

16     necessary details, to the Bosnian authorities in 2001.

17             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20        Q.   Mr. Ruez, as you arrived at information about these places,

21     ambushes and so on, generally through witnesses, can you tell us what

22     those witnesses said, and how many they say were killed in the ambushes,

23     so that we at least have a figure if we don't have the exhumations,

24     themselves?  Thank you.

25        A.   No, I won't be able to do that because, again, whatever numbers

Page 1547

 1     these witnesses would talk about have no scientific basis, since these

 2     are people who were in very stressful situations, and the instinct in

 3     that case when people recall the event is to inflate numbers.  So I won't

 4     be able to give you any precise number about this, and this is probably a

 5     number that anyone will have a hard time to figure out extremely

 6     precisely.

 7        Q.   Mr. Ruez, you investigated this matter, so can you tell this

 8     Trial Chamber what the number is, what the figure is?  And then they can

 9     assess whether the number has been increased due to the psychological

10     weakness of individuals or something else.  And if you can't tell me,

11     perhaps you can tell them.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I object.  This has been asked and answered

14     several times.  It's an area that's really not in contest.  The

15     Prosecution's case has been the same since the Krstic matter, and we have

16     barely scratched the surface, and we have a lot of time left.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. --

18             THE WITNESS:  I confirm that I can only repeat, hour after hour,

19     that the only data we rely on is the number of people who we find in the

20     graves.  We give a courtesy to the Defence to consider that any other

21     body found on the surface died in a combat situation.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think, Mr. Tolimir, the witness has given you

23     this answer several times, and you perhaps should consider to move to

24     another topic.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in my indictment

Page 1548

 1     there is a figure there, the number of people that I'm being accused of.

 2     Now, how am I going to deal with this if the investigators who took the

 3     statements from these people and took part in the events can't tell me?

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you got the relevant answers by this

 5     witness.  You can deal with this with several witnesses in this trial.

 6     Wait for those who are able to answer these questions.

 7             Please carry on.

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   Now, Mr. Ruez, I'm interested in whether there are any

10     forensic -- there is any forensic evidence about these victims of combat,

11     that is to say, those people who were killed in combat.  Thank you.

12        A.   I will have to leave this part of the cross-examination to the

13     pathologist who dealt with the analysis and examination of these bodies.

14     This was not part of my duties.

15        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  Now, let's move on from this interview and

16     go on to the statement you gave to the French Parliamentary Commission on

17     the 22nd of February, 2001.

18             And for that, may we call up 1D59, please.  Thank you.

19             We have the document on our screens now.  May we turn to page 2,

20     please.  It is the penultimate paragraph on page 2 in the English, and

21     it's also on page 2 of the Serbian.  Thank you.  The one-but-last

22     paragraph.

23             In this statement, you say as follows, and I'm quoting:

24             "During that time, the line of people continued.  There was

25     extremely violent fighting with the Serbian forces who tried to ambush

Page 1549

 1     them along the way.  At one point, part of the line left to make believe

 2     that there was an attack on Zvornik expressly to ease the pressure on the

 3     rest of the line.  The greatest number of prisoners were taken during the

 4     day of the 13th of July."

 5             Now, my question to you is this:  In your statement before the

 6     French Parliament, you talk about fierce clashes.  Unfortunately, when

 7     there are fierce clashes, there are a lot of dead and wounded.  Now, can

 8     you tell me, since you have been dealing with people on the list of

 9     killed, how many people were killed during these fierce clashes, thank

10     you, or violent fighting?

11        A.   Okay, two things on this.  First, about the clashes, again, since

12     the military operation was not the aim of the testimony, this paragraph

13     is to indicate the context.  So, in fact, the context, if you break down

14     this little paragraph, would be the ambushes at the start of a column.

15     And then, indeed, once the column arrived in the area of Zvornik, as you

16     know, there was intensive fighting, the column could even have stormed

17     into Zvornik.  A lot of people were called back from their activities to

18     go on the front-line.  The Zvornik Brigade was stripped of most of its

19     numbers because they were going down to Zepa, and, indeed, we learned

20     later on that a little part of the main column made a fake move towards

21     Zvornik in order to distract the Serb forces from the point where they

22     intended to exit.  So, again, this is a small paragraph to indicate the

23     context, but it's not the heart of the -- I hate calling this "the

24     story."  I mean, the concern of this case.

25             And, again, I repeat, no way for me to give any figure regarding

Page 1550

 1     those killed in action.  I cannot do that.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  And do you know the number of people killed

 3     in action?  I know you can't give us a number, but do you know it, did

 4     you investigate?

 5        A.   I'm sorry, I think I have answered this question maybe probably

 6     more than 10 times since the beginning of this afternoon.  No, I don't

 7     know.  No, I cannot say.  Until we have not finalised the entire

 8     exhumation process, no one will ever be able to say.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, if the witness knew he had to tell

10     that in court, and he says he doesn't know.  Please, don't repeat again

11     this question.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  But

13     those who survived state this in their statements.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Mr. Ruez, could you tell me whether a military operation was one

16     where part of the forces, as you say, tried to simulate an attack on

17     Zvornik and changed direction?

18        A.   Yes.  Though it is not part of the investigation, this is

19     something that we learned had happened, yes, indeed.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Ruez.

21             Now, may we have onto our screens 1D600 back again, please, or,

22     rather, 1D60.  1D60 and page 3 of that document, please.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, the document we just had on the

24     screen, do you tender that?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Yes, I'd like to tender

Page 1551

 1     it, but we're going to use it some more.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Then we can deal with that later.

 3             Mr. McCloskey.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm not sure.  Is he offering the entire

 5     testimony in front of the French Parliamentary?  That's quite a bit.  I

 6     would object to that.  I'm not sure if that's necessary.  For the same

 7     reasons as I've said before, if statements such as this come in, 92 bis

 8     or other -- there are other ways of bringing it in, but not the entire

 9     parliamentary statement just based on some short cross-examination

10     pieces.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir indicated that he will use this

12     document later with this witness, and we will wait for having seen the

13     relevant parts and then we will deal with that.

14             Please carry on, Mr. Tolimir.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  That's

16     right, we will be dealing with it some more.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   I'd like to dwell now for a moment on that same page.  It's

19     page 3, actually.  I said 1D60, page 3 in Serbian.

20             The last sentence in the middle column, paragraph 1, and I quote:

21             "When we complete all the exhumations, we'll have, more or less,

22     the number of those killed."

23             And then in the next paragraph, you refer to one of the graves

24     that we mentioned here, the Glogova grave, and you say, and I quote:

25             "There is a specific feature.  One of the graves in Glogova

Page 1552

 1     contains the bodies of people who were killed along the

 2     Konjevic Polje-Kravica road.  The Serbs will say of them that they were

 3     killed in battle, whereas they were killed as soon as they set foot on

 4     the asphalt road."

 5             End of quotation, and we will add that to the total number.

 6             Now, what date are you talking about here?

 7        A.   I'm talking about 13 July.

 8        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  Now, can you tell us how many bodies were

 9     buried in Glogova?  Thank you.

10        A.   That will be a question to address to Professor Richard Wright,

11     who has all the figures, in terms of numbers.  But, again, for Glogova,

12     there will be a need first to exhume all the sites who are south of

13     Srebrenica.  And as far as I know, aside the one that was exhumed by the

14     ICTY probably in 2000, or latest in 1999, I don't think any of the sites

15     that we have spotted south of Srebrenica have been exhumed so far.

16        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  I'm not asking about other ones.  I'm

17     asking you specifically about Glogova.  Can you tell us something and

18     answer my question just with respect to Glogova, what the number was?  I

19     didn't ask you how many there were in the primary and secondary graves,

20     but what the number was here, Glogova.

21        A.   No, General, I did answer your question.  I said that I cannot

22     answer it.  This one will be answered by Professor Richard Wright.

23        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  Can you tell me, if one group is armed and

24     is breaking through the encirclement and refuses to surrender, does that

25     group then represent a legitimate target to attack or not?  Thank you.

Page 1553

 1        A.   It is a legitimate target.  This is the reason why we have not

 2     taken into account any testimony of a person who would say that before

 3     being shot, they had not surrendered, had not handed over their weapons

 4     or threw them away.  We consider these situations as combat situations.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  Could you tell me whether all the ambushes

 6     for the opposite side, the combatants of the opposite side, was that

 7     legitimate too, a legitimate object and target of the two warring

 8     parties?

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, please.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Objection.  This is both asked and answered, and

11     it's really calling for legal opinion, as well as we get into what's

12     legitimate and what's not legitimate, which this witness has also

13     indicated he's not prepared to be able to answer.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think, Mr. McCloskey, you are absolutely right.

15     The witness is not here to answer legal questions.

16             Please take that into account and carry on.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18        Q.   Mr. Ruez, do you consider that a knowledge of combat theory is

19     indispensable for one to conclude whether something is a combat situation

20     or not?  Thank you.

21        A.   I feel so incompetent in that matter that this is the reason why

22     we focused only to determine the fate of people who had surrendered or

23     had been captured and were under detention under the control of the

24     security branch of the Bosnian Serb Army.  These are the only ones this

25     investigation had the duty to determine what happened to them, where they

Page 1554

 1     had been killed, where they had been buried, and later on where their

 2     bodies had been transported to in order to hide the evidence of that

 3     crime.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Yes, I asked you that so that I could see on the

 5     basis of what parameters you identified whether somebody in a mass

 6     grave -- whether people in a mass grave were killed through combat or

 7     not, and whether they had taken to the woods, and so on.  And you took

 8     statements from people, and you judged by the locations, themselves?

 9     Thank you.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, the witness has indicated several

11     times in which way he was able to investigate the facts, and you should

12     proceed with questions related to the facts the witness can testify

13     about.  Please ask questions.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

15        Q.   Mr. Ruez, it is not my intention to take away or add anything to

16     your testimony.  My only aim is to arrive at the truth before this

17     Trial Chamber about the events which you investigated.  So, if possible,

18     could you please answer my next question bearing that in mind.

19             Let's stay with page 2 -- or, rather, it's page 3 of 1D60, where

20     you state the following:  You say that you relied on a list supplied by

21     the ICRC, and add:

22             "The number of dead remains, now we know, after so many years,

23     that all of them are missing and dead.  That is not contentious anymore."

24             Now, in another place of that same document, 1D60, the first part

25     of your interview you say as follows:

Page 1555

 1             "The figure that we give is a minimum of the minimum.  And

 2     whenever we quote figures, we know that hundreds are missing, but we

 3     would rather err on the side of caution and quote a lower number than a

 4     higher number."

 5             Now, my question to you is this:  Can you tell us where -- well,

 6     we had the opportunity of reading in many places, in many reports

 7     provided to us by the Prosecution, this conservative attitude to numbers.

 8     How is it in evidence?  Can you tell us whether you know that a number of

 9     Muslims from Srebrenica, after the fall of Srebrenica, crossed illegally

10     to territory outside Bosnia-Herzegovina - Germany, Holland, and other

11     third countries - and did you register them and strike them from the list

12     of missing persons?  Thank you.

13        A.   On this, there is the testimony of an expert who testified on

14     this demography aspect during the Krstic trial, so I won't enter in that

15     field.  But, again, all this is right.  The figure that we bring up is

16     very conservative.  When, in any other press statement, you always read

17     this figure of 8.000 as having been killed, we always say, no, the real

18     number that we take in account is the number that will be known when the

19     exhumation process is finished, and for sure this figure will be lower

20     than the number of missing since we consider that a part of these have

21     been killed, let's say, in combat.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Can you tell us, Mr. Ruez, whether your investigative team or you

25     knew that a number of men had left Srebrenica and Bosnia and Herzegovina

Page 1556

 1     to third countries in Western Europe and that they are still listed under

 2     missing persons and those killed?

 3        A.   No, I don't know about that.  Again, the expert, the demographer,

 4     would be able to give more details on this.  What we knew at that time is

 5     that, indeed, one group of an unknown number crossed the Drina to try to

 6     find shelter in Serbia, but -- according to the information we received,

 7     was that there was nothing, let's say, ugly to report about their fates.

 8     The reason why, these people again are not -- were not part of the

 9     investigation.  But I have no idea if some of them are not on the missing

10     list, still on the list of missing, and if they are ever been reported as

11     missing, since they were not missing.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Tell us, then, if you did know, by any chance, would

13     then their names have to be struck off this list of missing persons of

14     Srebrenica?  Thank you.

15        A.   I think it is the responsibility of the ICRC, who drafted this

16     list, to then continue to deal with this list and update the list if

17     someone shows up alive somewhere.  But I cannot answer in the name of

18     ICRC.

19        Q.   Thank you.  I'm not asking you to answer on behalf of the ICRC.

20     I'm just asking you this:  If, as an investigator, you learned that some

21     of these people were registered in third foreign countries, would you

22     then request that their names be taken off the missing persons list for

23     Srebrenica?  Thank you.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, the witness has just answered this

25     question.  It's not necessary to repeat that.

Page 1557

 1             Carry on, please.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, but I wasn't asking

 3     about whether the ICRC had to strike these names off the list, but rather

 4     whether the investigators would have to do it.  Thank you, but I did not

 5     get an answer.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Yes, the answer is always the same.  The answer is

 7     that -- I mean, I have not read your indictment, General, but I don't

 8     believe that the Prosecution charges you with any missing person.

 9     I think the indictment, like it has always been, is focused only on the

10     fact that several thousand persons who were prisoners have been murdered.

11     The final number, again, today is still unknown, since we have still

12     several secondary sites containing an unknown number of bodies that can

13     be connected with the primary sites needs to be exhumed.  So I cannot

14     enter a debate about this missing list.

15        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  For your information, I am charged with

16     genocide as well, and I have to try and shed light from every angle

17     regarding -- including the things that you investigated.  Thank you.

18             Could the witness now please be shown 1D102.  We can wait for it

19     to come up on the monitors.

20             In the meantime, let me just say that this is a newspaper report

21     that caused a lot of excitement, and it was a statement by Mr. Tokaca,

22     the director of the investigative centre, who, on the 21st of March,

23     2010, only a day after your evidence in this case, made public the

24     following information.  And I will just read the relevant portions.

25             This report was published in all the daily papers and many weekly

Page 1558

 1     magazines in Republika Srpska and the Federation of Bosnia and

 2     Herzegovina.  We don't have the document before us yet.  I can't see the

 3     first page.  We can only see here where it says the director of the

 4     Investigating Centre from Sarajevo, Mr. Mirsad Tokaca, said "yesterday"

 5     in Banja Luka, that in the course of the investigation of war crimes, he

 6     learned that about 500 people from Srebrenica were still alive, and yet

 7     their names are on the list of those missing in Srebrenica in July 1995.

 8     So he said that in the course of the investigation that he conducted, he

 9     learned that 500 people who were on the missing persons list for

10     Srebrenica were still alive, and he also says:

11             "We learned that about 70 persons who were buried at the

12     Memorial Centre in Potocari were not in Srebrenica at the time at all."

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I received information that this is the only page

14     of this document, and I'm not sure if you have up-loaded this document in

15     e-court.  We have nothing except this page, and, therefore, you should be

16     careful with that.  You're not giving evidence.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I will

18     read what you can see on the screen, and you will see that everything I

19     have said is contained in there.  I only mention this for the witness by

20     way of introduction.  It says the following, I quote:

21             "Over 500 allegedly killed in Srebrenica still living."

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think there is a long quotation already in the

23     transcript.  I think you should now put a question to the witness.  It's

24     more appropriate to get information from this witness that's not just

25     repetitive --

Page 1559

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 2             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 3        Q.   Mr. Ruez, can you tell us, please, whether in the meantime you

 4     have been informed of this, as reported by Mr. Tokaca in several press

 5     conferences that he gave both in Sarajevo and in Tuzla?

 6        A.   The answer is, no, I was not aware that Mr. Tokaca gave these

 7     statements.

 8        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  Can you tell us now, please, whether you

 9     know and whether the Prosecution knows that 500 people who are still

10     living are listed as missing or killed in Srebrenica?  Thank you.

11        A.   I can only answer for myself, and my answer is I discover these

12     statements that were made by Mr. Tokaca.  I cannot say for anyone other

13     than myself.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Ruez, can you then tell us if this is the first

15     time that you hear of this, that Mr. Tokaca, who is a Muslim and lives in

16     Sarajevo, and who is officially the director of that centre, and whose

17     claim has not been disproved by anyone, can you tell us whether you are

18     going to request these 500 individuals that he is mentioning here will be

19     taken off the list?  Thank you.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'd like to hear the answer of the witness.  He

21     will be able to do that.

22             THE WITNESS:  Well, the answer is very simple.  I left the

23     Tribunal in 2001.  I have absolutely no authority -- for sure, I would

24     not have the authority to retrieve anything from the records, and I have

25     no authority to influence anyone to further investigate this matter.  I'm

Page 1560

 1     no more part of the investigation team since nine years now.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  Mr. President, I object to the last

 4     question because he states that it's not this -- something to the effect

 5     that there's been nothing to dispute that, when I'm sure the general

 6     knows in the press there has been, and I won't get into the details of

 7     it, but something that's absolutely contrary to that by the very person

 8     that's supposedly quoted.  And by asking a question in this way, he is,

 9     out of the press or deliberately misleading the Court, and he shouldn't

10     be doing either.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We don't have any document on the screen or in

12     e-court, and, therefore, I think your position is quite clear.

13             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Ruez, is it true that almost no one, except partially this

17     Centre for Documentation and Investigation, no one is really

18     investigating whether persons who are on the missing persons list are

19     still living and perhaps living somewhere in the West, Western Europe or

20     the United States?  Thank you.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I think it is not necessary to

22     repeat and repeat and repeat.  Otherwise, will you get always the same

23     answers.  The witness made very clear that he is no longer -- for many

24     years no longer an employee of the OTP.  He is not investigating anything

25     further, so that you shouldn't continue putting these kind of questions

Page 1561

 1     to this witness.

 2             I think we must have the second break now.

 3             You should think about that, consider the guidance of the

 4     Chamber, and perhaps you can discuss it with your legal assistant.

 5             We adjourn and resume at 6.00.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 6.04 p.m.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Chamber was not aware -- before the break was

 9     not aware of the fact that the Defence notified this afternoon the

10     document 1D00102, but only one page.  This is perhaps one of the -- one

11     reason for the confusion which took place before the break.  The Chamber

12     is of the view that if you want to have this page again on the screen and

13     to read this portion - we can follow on the screen - in B/C/S into the

14     transcript and put a question to that, you should do that, Mr. Tolimir.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

16             Could we then please see on the screens that document that you

17     just mentioned, the statement by Mr. Tokaca.

18             Thank you.  For the transcript, would you allow me to read the

19     statement, because we will seek to tender it.  Thank you.

20             I'm reading a statement by Mirsad Tokaca, the director of the

21     Research and Documentation Centre from Sarajevo:

22             "Director of the Investigation and Research Centre from Sarajevo

23     said yesterday in Banja Luka that in the course of the investigations

24     into war crimes, he received information about 500 men from Srebrenica

25     who are still living and who are on the list of those killed in

Page 1562

 1     Srebrenica in July of 1995."

 2             Thank you.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Ruez, do you know that this statement was -- or gave rise to

 5     a debate in a session of the Government of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

 6        A.   I have absolutely no clue about this.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Could you answer one more question.  Do you know that

 8     the president of Republika Srpska - and tomorrow I will provide his

 9     statement - asked that this number be deducted from the number of the

10     total -- from the total number of victims of Srebrenica?  Thank you.

11        A.   I have no information about such a request.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us whether the person who now does the

13     work that you did, investigating Srebrenica, should he seek to obtain

14     these documents from the Centre for Investigating War Crimes in Sarajevo?

15        A.   I have no word to say about an investigation I am no longer a

16     part of since nine years now.

17        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  My question is:  Would it be necessary to

18     obtain this statement given by an official organ for the cases still

19     being tried here before this Tribunal?  Thank you.

20        A.   As a private person, and for the sake of historical purposes, I

21     could just invite you to ask Mr. Tokaca to come to The Hague as a Defence

22     witness.  More than that I cannot say.

23        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  I was only asking whether the person who

24     came to do your job, once you left, is that person capable of obtaining

25     those documents or not?  In other words, can an investigator have access

Page 1563

 1     to the documents possessed by the sides that are investigating these

 2     crimes?

 3        A.   Unfortunately, I'm no longer in a position to provide an answer

 4     on this.  I have to say that this is no longer my business, and I have no

 5     idea on the current investigative powers of the Office of the Prosecutor,

 6     and I have no word to say on this.

 7        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  Can you tell us, then, while you were still

 8     in this job, were you able to co-operate with the investigating organs of

 9     Bosnia and Herzegovina?

10        A.   I could have done it.  I didn't do it on purpose, aside of a

11     statement analysis that we did based on these compilations obtained by

12     the MUP and the Bosniak commission.  In order to keep our independence,

13     we had absolutely no longer contacts with them, aside for the police to

14     organise materially some interview places and have maybe sometimes police

15     vehicles to bring these people to -- for our interview process.  But we,

16     on purpose, disconnected from the work of this commission.

17        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  The individuals concerned that are on the

18     list provided by the ICRC as missing persons, would it be normal, once

19     one learned that they were still living, that this information be made

20     public?  Thank you.

21        A.   I leave to Mr. Tokaca the responsibility of what he says to the

22     press.  The only thing I can say is that at least if this is correct,

23     these people will not be identified through their DNA as being found in

24     the mass graves we are concerned with.  That's the only thing I can say.

25        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  I understand what you're saying.  In order

Page 1564

 1     not to dwell on this anymore and not to waste any time, we will provide

 2     and present to you tomorrow some documents, such as, for instance, a

 3     statement by the prime minister.  But for now, we'll move on to another

 4     question.

 5             Your book contains a large number of aerial photos that you were

 6     given by the American intelligence services.  That's what you said here.

 7     Before I put a question to you, I would like to show you the statement

 8     that you provided to the French media.

 9             Could we please see 1D0159.  This is an interview with the

10     commissioner, Jean-Rene Ruez, leader of the investigating team into

11     Srebrenica, provided in 2001.  Could we please see page 11 of this

12     document, a report to the Parliamentary Committee of France.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please give us the number again.  This can't be

14     the correct number, 1D0159.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D059.  I apologise if I misspoke

16     the first time.  Thank you.  1D059.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  To clarify, Mr. Ruez never said that this was

19     provided by the intelligence services.  He said the State Department, and

20     there's a big difference.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.  We'll

22     take a look at the text now and see what was said, and the witness can

23     answer the question and take into account your remarks too.

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Now, we have page 11 -- can we have page 11, because I'd like to

Page 1565

 1     quote from that page.  What paragraph is it?  It's the third paragraph in

 2     the Serbian, and paragraph 5 in the English.  With respect to the

 3     photograph which the USA sent you, you state, among other things:

 4             "We don't possess photographs at all showing the execution taking

 5     [Realtime transcript read in error "took"] place, if that is what you

 6     wish to know.  We always have photographs showing before and after."

 7             Did I quote that correctly, and did you say that before the

 8     French Parliamentary Committee?

 9        A.   Yes, I did.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             Now may we show one of those photographs to the witness, which is

12     65 ter 01450, page 31, a Prosecution document.  It's a photograph showing

13     buses by the Nova Kasaba.  Thank you.

14             We haven't got the photograph -- yes, we have.  It's just

15     appeared.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Now, you say that this was taken on the 13th of July, 1995.  Tell

18     us how you established the date at which the photograph was taken.  It

19     even says "1400 hours" there, "the 13th of July, 1995, 1400 hours."  How

20     did you establish the date and the time?  Thank you.

21        A.   I just want to point a mistake in the transcript of my previous

22     answer, when I said:  "Yes, correct," but there was something

23     mis-written.  What I said is we never got a photograph of ongoing

24     execution, not execution locations.  It's an ongoing execution.  The

25     photos are before and after.

Page 1566

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 2             THE WITNESS:  On this one and on your question, the markings that

 3     are on the picture, the yellow markings are my markings.  The markings in

 4     the white boxes are original markings that were on the photograph, as

 5     provided by the State Department.  So these dates are the dates these

 6     pictures were officially taken.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell me on what basis you were able to

 9     establish that, or were you told that that was the date and time that the

10     photograph was taken?  Thank you.

11        A.   I have -- I have no mean to control the origin of the markings.

12     The interesting point for me, as an investigator, with this photograph is

13     to confirm the statements of those who have been on this field, of those

14     who were passing by by bus, and this matches the date of the picture.

15     And probably even with the shadows of the buses, you could probably have

16     a correct assessment of the hour.

17        Q.   So that means you can't tell the Trial Chamber how the date and

18     time came to be written there of this photograph?  You can or you cannot

19     ?  You cannot.

20             Now let's look at photograph 31, please, 30 and 31.  30 and 31

21     next, please, from that same set.

22             Could you tell the Trial Chamber how you were able to establish

23     the date and time here too?  Thank you.

24        A.   Exactly the same answer.  All what is in the white boxes has been

25     put on it by the providers.

Page 1567

 1        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  Can you tell me whether the photographs

 2     were in colour or black and white, the ones you received?  Thank you.

 3        A.   In black and white.

 4        Q.   Now, these photographs, are they the only ones of Nova Kasaba or

 5     were you offered some others, too, depicting Nova Kasaba?

 6        A.   All the photographs that have been shown so far during the

 7     various trials are photographs that we have obtained on request.  They

 8     have never been provided, without a previous request, from us.  And,

 9     indeed, in the area of Nova Kasaba, since we were also looking for one

10     execution site and mass graves, we received additional pictures connected

11     with Nova Kasaba.

12        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  Now, can you tell us whether these

13     photographs, the ones you've just shown us of this field, are identical

14     to the situation as it was then, and were there any changes that were

15     made compared to 2001, when you were the investigator?

16        A.   These are exactly the pictures that I got through the

17     State Department at the time we requested for them.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Could you indicate to us where you see the convoy

19     here, when this is a column, a mixed column of vehicles, small and large

20     vehicles?  Thank you.

21        A.   Now, in this picture, which is an instantaneous picture, the only

22     thing you can see on the road is four buses driving in the direction --

23     or opposite the direction of this soccer field.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Can you see some small cars next to the buses as

25     well?  Thank you.

Page 1568

 1        A.   Yes, indeed.  At the bottom right of the picture, there is one on

 2     the road.  There is also one parked alongside of the road when you go up,

 3     behind the -- at the corner behind one of the buses.  And at the top left

 4     of the picture, you also have one vehicle on the road.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             Now, may we have on e-court -- well, can we have the left of the

 7     photograph, where it says "Nova Kasaba, the 13th of July, 1995," can we

 8     show that on the left-hand side, and on the right-hand side can we have

 9     D28?  And it's an exhibit introduced into evidence during witness

10     testimony.  It also shows Nova Kasaba the 13th of July, 1995, at 1400

11     hours.  Thank you.  It was testimony of the 26th of April.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Tolimir repeat the numbers, please.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] -- with the witness statement.  He

14     confirmed having given the statement, and he drew this in.  He drew the

15     markings by his own hand, the one we can see on the right-hand side of

16     the page.  And I'd like to quote from his statement, and then I'll ask

17     you the question:

18             "I sat together --"

19             And the transcript page is 1383, lines 19 to 25 of the

20     transcript.  He says:

21             "I sat together with other prisoners for some 20 minutes, and

22     then I saw Ratko Mladic coming out of a combat vehicle.  That was on the

23     13th of July, sometime between 1400 hours and 1445 hours."

24             On page 1384, lines 4 to 6, he says the following:  The witness

25     said that that was correct, as shown here, and that the stadium was full.

Page 1569

 1     Now, I don't want to go through the whole statement, but at 1387 of the

 2     transcript, the witness marked the positions where the prisoners were.

 3             Now, in your testimony, Mr. Ruez, you said the following:  You

 4     said that you're 100 per cent certain that with respect to this

 5     photograph, that the prisoners were in this field.  And on page 930,

 6     lines 9 to 12, you said, and I quote:

 7             "For me, this is 100 per cent certain, because I can even see the

 8     guards here."

 9             Now, the witness marked the photograph and the place where the

10     prisoners were located.  He used a red pen to mark in that area, because

11     we asked him whether there were a lot of them and he marked the area

12     where the prisoners were located in red.  And also with a red pen, he

13     circled almost the entire stadium.  According to him, General Mladic and

14     the place where the guards were was in the upper left-hand corner, and he

15     put a number 2 where that was.

16        Q.   My question reads as follows:  Can you explain to us whether,

17     through witness testimony, you checked out the authenticity of the

18     photographs sent you by the US authorities?  You said the

19     State Department, I believe.  And how do you explain the fact that -- or,

20     rather, the difference in the witness statement and what we see on the

21     photograph?  Because on the photograph we see, on the left-hand side of

22     the football field, there's a group of prisoners, and in front of that

23     group there's another group of persons, allegedly, whereas the witness

24     drew this red area and said that the prisoners were in that whole area.

25        A.   Yes, I understand your question.  To me, there were two

Page 1570

 1     informations.  The one that can be seen on the picture and the testimony

 2     of the witness are not necessarily in conflict for a simple reason.  It

 3     is that the picture -- the aerial imagery is an instant moment, at that

 4     moment pinpointed at 1400, but this is a situation of evolution.  Maybe

 5     before 1400 there were more people on this field, but, anyhow, after 1400

 6     there were suddenly more people because this place was getting more and

 7     more crowded during the surrender process.  So the timing given by the

 8     witness said it was between -- [Overlapping speakers]

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You should switch off the microphone for any

10     discussion.

11             THE WITNESS:  I think I remember having read that he described

12     the situation that was around this hour.  He says 1445.  I'm not certain

13     he was watching his watch at that moment that day, but again the

14     situation in this location, that is, one main regroupment [sic] spot for

15     captured prisoners and those who were surrendering, it was an evolution,

16     so we only have one picture.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  Could you tell us now -- well, the witness

19     said that at 1400 hours he saw General Mladic and that the stadium was

20     full.  Now --

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we get a citation of where that's being

22     said so we can check it?

23             Thank you, I've found it.  It's in a witness statement.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I said that that was page 1383,

Page 1571

 1     lines 19 to 25.  The witness said:

 2             "I was sitting together with some other prisoners for some 20

 3     minutes."

 4             It was on the 13th of July, between 1400 hours and 1430 hours.

 5     I think that you have now been able to find that in English.  Have you?

 6             The witness confirms his statement at transcript page 1384,

 7     line 4.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What is your question?

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   My question is this:  Is it possible to have this difference;

11     that is to say, to have this difference between the photograph on the

12     left and the photograph on the right, which the witness has drawn in red,

13     whereas the photograph on the left just shows a small amount of people to

14     the left of the football field compared to those sitting in front?  Thank

15     you.

16        A.   I could not say for sure, since I was not an eye-witness that day

17     at that hour.  But one thing is sure, that it is that within half an hour

18     or one hour, the situation can change a lot.  We don't even need to bring

19     in between the moment this witness describes the situation.  And the

20     timing of the aerial imagery, if a group of a few hundred people are

21     brought to that field, the situation then looks significantly different.

22     Again, this is an instant shot.  Half an hour before, half an hour later,

23     the situation can be different.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, to be very correct, you said, on

25     page 72, line 7:

Page 1572

 1             "The witness said that at 1400 hours, he saw General Mladic."

 2             You know, the correct quotation would be page 70, line 9:

 3             "I saw Ratko Mladic coming out of a combat vehicle.  That was on

 4     the 13th of July, sometime between 1400 hours and 1445 hours."

 5             That's slightly different.  Be careful if you are quoting

 6     something.

 7             Please carry on.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We quoted the portion of the

 9     statement on page 1383 correctly.  The lines were 19 to 25 of that page.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please don't argue again.  When you

11     put your question to the witness, then you made a wrong reference, only

12     to 1400 hours and not 1400 to 1445 hours.  This is slightly different,

13     and, therefore, be very correct, please.

14             And now carry on.  No discussion.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

17             It says here "at 1400 hours and 1430 hours," thank you, and

18     that's how I read it out.  Thank you.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Now, Mr. Ruez, I asked you a moment ago whether these are the

21     only photographs that you received and whether the State Department would

22     give you photographs showing just one small group, not even several

23     hundred people -- not even 200 people, judging by the surface area, and

24     not provide you with photographs where the stadium is full.  Thank you.

25     I don't assume that they stopped filming.  Thank you.

Page 1573

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What is your question, Mr. Tolimir?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The question is whether there are

 3     any more photographs on which he can confirm what he's saying, that later

 4     on there were more people, because the witness is claiming here that the

 5     stadium was full, whereas Mr. Ruez says that there were as many as are

 6     shown on the left-hand photograph in dotted form and they don't take up

 7     even one-tenth of the football field, if you look at the scale of the

 8     field and the people there.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, your question was whether there are

10     any more photographs, and all the other things in the sentences were

11     again a debate.

12             Could you answer that question?

13             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  The answer is simple, is that General Tolimir

14     is wrong when he assumes that the people who took the photograph stopped

15     filming.  Again, this is an instant shot.  It is not a film.  So I am not

16     in a position to discuss the aerial means that enabled the US to take

17     these pictures, but this is, as far as I know, not an extract from a

18     video, it's an instant shot, and that day, in that area, that we only --

19     material available.

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  Now, is it your assessment -- or, rather,

22     how many people would you say there were on the photograph provided to

23     you by the United States of America, the one on the left?  Thank you.

24        A.   No, I will not risk to make an assessment just at the top of my

25     head.  Trying to do one will require to take very precise measurements,

Page 1574

 1     go back to the ground and try to frame precisely the position of these

 2     people.  And then you have the additional question to know if they are

 3     sitting, if they are standing.  So I would not be in a position, anyhow,

 4     to make a very precise assessment of how many they are at this precise

 5     moment on this field.

 6        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  Now, the rectangle on the US photograph on

 7     the left is not a larger surface area than two centimetres' length and

 8     one centimetre wide; would that be right?  Would you agree?

 9        A.   No, I would totally disagree, since two centimetres is very far

10     away from the resolution of this picture.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell me how many little squares you can fit

12     into the football field?  On the empty space of the football field, how

13     many more little squares could you fit in?

14        A.   I would not make this estimate also on top of my head.  I would

15     leave it to you to do it.  But this is not part of my concern on this

16     picture.  The interest here is to confirm witness testimonies with a

17     photograph that we believe is genuine, and these two things match

18     together.  Again, if there is a difference, in terms of numbers that can

19     be seen, the explanation can be that at this day -- moment of that day,

20     the flow of prisoners was continuous, as we could see it on another video

21     on another situation along the asphalt road.  So this is again an instant

22     shot.  Maybe the field was empty one hour before and full one hour later.

23     This, I cannot say.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  Tell us now, please, on what basis do you

25     believe that the situation on the 13th of July, at 1400 hours, on the

Page 1575

 1     left-hand side is correct, the one shown by the satellite photograph, the

 2     aerial photograph?  Why would you say that was correct?  Thank you.

 3        A.   For the reason that it matches the parts of the statement of this

 4     witness who came here to testify, even though the situation he describes

 5     is not exactly the one on the picture, but for the reasons that I already

 6     talked about.  But it also matches other witness testimonies who might

 7     probably not be called just to talk about this, but who were on board of

 8     the buses and who could see people getting -- being scrambled on this

 9     field, and also due to other informations that we didn't use since they

10     were not on record, but off record.

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  Now, can this Trial Chamber and this

12     Defence know who those witnesses were?  Could we know who those witnesses

13     were, and can we see their statements?  Thank you.

14        A.   Is it a question for me or for the Prosecution?

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There's only one witness present.

16             THE WITNESS:  Yeah.  In that case, it would need to retake the

17     witness statements and re-identify people who were on board of buses and

18     who we don't necessary interview and even less necessary brought to the

19     Court by the Prosecution.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And we remain open for any such requests, and we

22     will, in fact, look for such requests for the Defence.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for that offer.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if we are presenting

25     evidence here and witness statements, then those witnesses have to be

Page 1576

 1     named and they should be accessible to the Defence, because we have to

 2     check their authenticity.  And that is why I put this question to the

 3     witness; namely, who those witnesses were and whether we can obtain that

 4     information, whether the Trial Chamber can have that information.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Perhaps you didn't listen to the comment of

 6     Mr. McCloskey.  He said:

 7             "We remain open for any such requests, and we will, in fact, look

 8     for such requests for the Defence."

 9             This is the normal obligation of the OTP, and you may deal in

10     direct contact with the Prosecution.  The witness is not in the position

11     to provide you with these documents.

12             Please carry on with your cross-examination.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14        Q.   Now, Mr. Ruez, could you tell us whether there is a big

15     discrepancy in the photograph where the witness indicated and drew what

16     the situation was like at 1400 up until 1430 and the satellite shot that

17     we see of the 13th of July at 1400 hours?  Is there a big difference in

18     terms of the surface area that is depicted in one and the other photo?

19     Thank you.

20        A.   In terms of numbers, there is certainly a significant difference.

21     But in terms of spotting this place as a regroupment [sic] place for

22     captured prisoners or surrendered people, there is no discrepancy.

23        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  Does this satellite shot actually fix the

24     situation as it was at 1400 hours on the 13th of July, 1995, on this

25     football field?  Thank you.

Page 1577

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before you object, Mr. McCloskey, I would like --

 2     it's not necessary to object to these questions because the question is

 3     already answered, quite clear of the source and the information the

 4     witness got from the provider of this aerial photo.  Please take into

 5     account that the photo on the right side was not taken at the same moment

 6     as the photo of the left side.  There may be some discrepancies.

 7             Mr. McCloskey.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, the objection is based on the

 9     assumption in his question that this is a satellite photo, and the record

10     should reflect in no way his speculations on the platform by which this

11     was taken.  That would potentially harm the Rule 70 situation that we

12     have here, and it's my duty, under our Rule 70, to make sure that there

13     aren't speculations or such false issues in the record, is merely what

14     that objection is about.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

16             Mr. Tolimir, continue.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, and thank

18     you, Mr. McCloskey.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   My question was, for the witness, whether he could observe a

21     discrepancy between the left-hand photo that was taken from a satellite

22     or in some other way - I don't know what, but it's an aerial photo - and

23     the photograph that was marked by a Prosecution witness who was

24     questioned here on the 26th of April.  Thank you.

25        A.   I have already answered that question before.

Page 1578

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please repeat it for the transcript?  Could

 2     you just give us a brief answer, yes or no?  Can you observe a

 3     discrepancy or not?  I didn't really get a precise and accurate answer.

 4     You tried to explain something, but you didn't actually answer whether

 5     you see that there is a discrepancy or a difference between these two

 6     photos.

 7        A.   One is in black and white.  The other one is in colour.  One is

 8     seen from an angle roughly west-east.  The right one is from an angle

 9     north-south.  These are differences.  Then the other difference, as you

10     already pointed, is the size on this field that was occupied by

11     prisoners.  Yes, there is a discrepancy.  Where there is no discrepancy

12     is that the witness spots the soccer field of Nova Kasaba as being a

13     regroupment [sic] point for prisoners.  He had no photo camera at that

14     time, but the imagery provided by State Department spots prisoners on

15     this soccer field as well.  This is the interest of connecting witness

16     testimony with this aerial imagery.  But, again, it's an instant shot, so

17     with a little time difference due to the movements of surrendering people

18     that day, within half an hour you can have a very different situation on

19     one spot.  It is true here in Nova Kasaba.  It is also true for Sandici,

20     exactly for the same reasons.

21        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.  Now, tell us just one more thing:  Is there

22     a big difference in the surface area depicting prisoners in the photo as

23     drawn by the witness and the aerial photo, and where can we observe a

24     greater number of prisoners?  Thank you.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I think the witness has answered

Page 1579

 1     that question several times.  You should be a little bit aware on the

 2     time you have left today and tomorrow.  These are the only days this

 3     witness will be present for your cross-examination.  Just carry on with

 4     other questions.

 5             Mr. McCloskey.

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And on that same subject, Mr. President, I -- as

 7     you know, I haven't been doing much redirect, but could I reserve

 8     30 minutes, if possible, for redirect for tomorrow in that same regard?

 9     Thank you.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm sure this is appropriate.

11             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would just

13     appreciate it if you take into consideration the fact that the time that

14     was allotted to me was also spent for objections by the Prosecution, and

15     I don't have a problem with objections being made, but I'm just putting

16     questions about the obvious.  I haven't put any questions regarding

17     things that are not obvious.  Thank you.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. Ruez, could you tell us, how far is Sandici from Kasaba or,

20     rather, from this football pitch?  Thank you.

21        A.   This football pitch is on the line Konjevic Polje at the north

22     and Nova Kasaba at the south.  Sandici is on the line that goes from

23     Konjevic Polje towards Bratunac.  These are two different areas.  If you

24     want a rough estimate of the distance between the two, I would say 13

25     kilometres.

Page 1580

 1        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Ruez.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please show the

 3     witness 65 ter 01450, page 46, and could we at the same time

 4     show page 48.  Could we have a split screen with the two pages on it?

 5     Thank you.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I think you need your microphone.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             We see this field in Sandici, this meadow, and we see Kasaba

10     depicted.  The date is 13 July 1995, 1400 hours.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   And you said on the transcript that this photograph, where we see

13     a group of people, was taken at the same time, on the 13th of July at

14     1400 hours.  Did I quote you correctly?  Thank you.

15        A.   These two pictures are pictures of Sandici.  The picture on the

16     left is, indeed, a picture taken of Sandici precisely the same day and

17     the same hour than the aerial imagery that was taken from Nova Kasaba.

18     But these two spots are the two main regroupment [sic] spots of

19     prisoners, but prisoners who were not in the same area.  They were at a

20     distance.  Nova Kasaba was the regroupment [sic] spot for the prisoners

21     who had reached this big hill that is just above Konjevic Polje.  Sandici

22     is much more towards the east and was the main regroupment [sic] spot for

23     those who had stayed in this area which is nearby Kravica.  It's two

24     different spots.  But, indeed, the picture of Nova Kasaba and the picture

25     of Sandici, they are from, in fact, the same picture, from the picture of

Page 1581

 1     that entire area that day at that hour.

 2        Q.   Is this an aerial photo made by the United States?

 3        A.   Yes, it is.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now a question by Judge Nyambe.

 5             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Okay.  On page 82, line 10 to 12, you state:

 6             "Indeed, the picture of Nova Kasaba and the picture of Sandici,

 7     they are from, in fact, the same picture, from the picture that entire

 8     area that day at that hour."

 9             Are you suggesting that the pictures were taken at the same time

10     in Sandici as well as in Nova Kasaba.

11             THE WITNESS:  It is exactly the same picture, but in such a

12     picture you can go into different areas.  This picture covers a very

13     large area, and then you can focus -- if you know where to look into, you

14     can focus on various spots on the same picture.  So, in fact, these two

15     pictures are coming from the same picture, the same original picture.

16             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Okay.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  I think we are at the end of today's

18     hearing.  We have to adjourn.  Before we do that, let me make two


20             But, first of all, I would like to thank you, Mr. Ruez.  You have

21     to come back tomorrow for a continuation of your examination.  And the

22     same advice I gave you the last time; no contact, please, with the

23     Prosecution about this evidence.

24             THE WITNESS:  Absolutely.

25             Also, just in case, since anyhow Wednesday is a general strike in

Page 1582

 1     the country I need to return to, I will have no plane.  So if there is

 2     absolutely a need for me to testify again on Wednesday, I'm fully at the

 3     disposal of the general and the Chamber.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That's extremely nice.  But, on the other hand,

 5     I think there are other witnesses scheduled.  No, on Wednesday, we are

 6     not sitting.  No, no, no, there is no hearing on Wednesday.  Next week,

 7     and I hope for you there is no strike.

 8             Before we adjourn, let me mention the following.

 9             Mr. Tolimir, you always have to be aware of the possibility that

10     the Prosecution makes objections.  That will be your right as well if the

11     Prosecution is examining any witness.  But this is part of the time under

12     your disposal.  You should take that into account, and we should try to

13     proceed a little bit faster tomorrow than we did today.

14             The second remark, very shortly.  I take it that you withdrew the

15     written motion for receiving two documents; that is, on page 4, line 13

16     to 15 of today's transcript, the 65 ter 1D81 and 1D82.  This motion is

17     withdrawn, and, therefore, there's no need for any decision on that.

18             Thank you very much, and we adjourn until tomorrow at 2.15 in the

19     afternoon.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please just -- I'd like to

21     tender this into evidence.  I would just like to have the maps that we

22     just saw tendered into evidence.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We'll deal with that tomorrow.

24                           [The witness stands down]

25                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.,

Page 1583

 1                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 4th day of May,

 2                           2010, at 2.15 p.m.