1 Tuesday, 4 May 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom and
7 Could the witness be brought in, please.
8 [The witness takes the stand]
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon. Please sit down.
10 I would like to remind you that the affirmation to tell the truth
11 still applies.
12 WITNESS: JEAN-RENE RUEZ [Resumed]
13 THE WITNESS: I understand that.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And Mr. Tolimir has some more questions for you.
15 Mr. Tolimir.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. May God
17 be on our help, and may these proceedings complete with God's will.
18 Thank you.
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir: [Continued]
20 Q. [Interpretation] I would like to wish good afternoon to the
21 witness, and I would appreciate it if you could answer briefly to my
22 questions, especially if you do not know the answer to a question. You
23 can just say you don't know and that's sufficient. Thank you.
24 Yesterday, we were discussing aerial photographs, and we will
25 continue with that topic today. And I would like to briefly dwell on
1 some documents in English.
2 Could we please see 1D59. This is a statement -- or, rather, the
3 statement that this witness provided to the French Parliamentary
4 Committee. Can we have it on the screens, please. I would like to quote
5 a portion of the statement.
6 You said:
7 "It is certain that I will be unable to answer some questions in
8 view of the fact that the investigation is still ongoing and, under
9 Rule 70, some information can only be disclosed with the agreement and
10 approval of the information provider."
11 My question: The information that you received from the
12 United States, the aerial photos, do they fall under Rule 70 in the
14 A. I think it is more a question for the Prosecution. I would say
15 yes, but then when it is turned into evidence, there might be a release
16 and a question for the Prosecution, not for the witness.
17 Q. Thank you. Do you know at all how these photos were made, what
18 type of instrument was used to make these shots? Because it is still
19 unclear how they were -- they came into being. Thank you.
20 A. The agreement is not to discuss the platform that was used to
21 take these pictures, but if you want to highlight on the methodology used
22 to access them, what I can tell you is that all of these pictures were
23 provided based on a very precise request. We were framing an area where
24 we had difficulties to find locations, and giving 10-digit grid
25 references or a more larger area, we could ultimately have access to a
1 photograph that would either be of immediate use for investigation, but
2 most of the time it was to enable us to go on remote locations and find
3 places that without the assistance of these photographs, we would have
4 had a lot of difficulties to find.
5 Q. Thank you. You said just a moment ago, and you said the same
6 thing yesterday, We received from the United States what we requested.
7 Does that mean that they did not offer any photos to you; they just
8 provided what you asked them to provide you with? Thank you.
9 A. Except one instance, this is the case.
10 Q. Thank you. Mr. McCloskey said, as recorded on pages 19 and 20 of
11 yesterday's transcript, that the United States, whenever a request was
12 submitted, are open to provide this type of documents, and this came
13 about when I actually objected to Mr. McCloskey's question. Thank you.
14 In your statement before the French Parliamentarian Committee, on
15 page 10, document 1D59, you say, and I quote:
16 "The situation is different when secondary mass graves are
17 concerned. One of those mass graves was discovered by Americans, who
18 then advised us as to where that mass grave was."
19 And then you go on to say:
20 "We received all this information from US intelligence services."
21 My question is this: Can you tell us, bearing in mind what
22 Mr. McCloskey said also, what intelligence service you got this
23 information from, in view of the fact that the US intelligence community
24 consists of 16 different agencies? Thank you.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, Your Honour. This --
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, could you please wait until you
2 get the floor. Now you get the floor, Mr. McCloskey.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: I apologise. Can I clarify? Do you want me to
4 stand and wait until I get the floor before I say, "Objection," or do I
5 say, "Objection" first and wait.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think when you raise and you get up and I see
7 you on your feet, then it's a clear indication that you want to object.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Fine, thank you. I'll endeavour to do that. I'm
9 sorry, I've got years of bad habits otherwise, but I will -- I will
10 correct, I promise.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Chamber will appreciate that.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
13 This is beyond the scope of Rule 70, Mr. President, and should
14 not be gone into. I cannot speak for the United States, but I do
15 understand, as should Mr. Tolimir because the letters of agreement about
16 this material have been provided to him, and going into the processes and
17 the procedures related to them is not something the United States has
18 agreed to allow us to discuss, even if we know.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
20 Mr. Tolimir, I think you know the procedure, you know the Rules,
21 and you should take that into account when you put questions to this
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
24 I do have that in mind, but when I said yesterday "intelligence
25 service," there was an objection -- or, rather, a comment that it wasn't
1 provided by the intelligence -- by an intelligence service, but, rather,
2 by the State Department. However, here, in document 1D59, on page 10, it
3 is explicitly said "provided by the intelligence services of the
4 United States." In view of the fact that I intend to ask several other
5 questions, I wanted to know which service this was obtained from and
6 where we can get this information. Thank you.
7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
8 Q. My next question is this: Mr. Ruez, was there a special liaison
9 person who would liaise between you and the United States government and
10 that intelligence service? Answer just yes or no, please.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Any discussion of specific intelligence services or intelligence
14 service at all is absolutely off limits, as far as our agreement, the
15 OTP's, with the United States, and whether or not that was mentioned at a
16 French parliamentary hearing or not is not relevant, really, to this
17 matter before us. And so I would object to this witness being required
18 to answer any questions about intelligence services.
19 Prior to the United States, and I hate to get them involved,
20 frankly, but -- because I cannot speak for them and I will not, when it
21 comes to specifics, but I do know the agreement, and I know that specific
22 intelligence services -- intelligence services are not something that we
23 are allowed to speak about.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Coming back to the wording of your question,
2 Mr. Tolimir, page 5, line 7 to 9, your question was:
3 "Was there a special liaison person who would liaise between you
4 and that intelligence service?"
5 I think it's important to understand your question. If you are
6 referring to a person -- if you are referring to the person -- a member
7 of the OTP, the Prosecution, who would liaise with the state or are you
8 referring to a person -- a representative of the United States as a
9 liaison officer to the Prosecution, could you clarify that first, please?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's correct, Your Honour, just
11 as you said in the latter part of what you said. I asked, Was there a
12 special person within the OTP who was in charge of liaising with American
13 authorities, including the American intelligence service? That was my
15 And since I have the floor, I would like to point another thing
16 out before we hear the answer.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sorry. In the moment, you don't have the floor.
18 You answered my question.
19 I think it is an appropriate question if you ask for -- if there
20 was a person in the OTP responsible for liaising with American
21 authorities. But, please, you can't ask if this person was responsible
22 for the contact with any intelligence service or any other organisations
23 of the United States. If you want to ask that question related to the
24 OTP, please then put this question to the witness.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I agree. So would you please put
2 the question to the witness, as the Trial Chamber, and then we can hear
3 his answer. Thank you.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Ruez, could you help us and tell us if at the
5 time you were employed and acted for the OTP -- I would like to wait.
6 Now I would like to repeat the question. Can you tell the
7 Chamber if there was at that time, when you were employed in the OTP, a
8 special person in the OTP who was a kind of liaison officer for this
9 contact with the American authorities?
10 THE WITNESS: I believe that answering the question would not be
11 a violation of any Rule 70 information. It would be a disclosure of
12 internal structure of the OTP. I don't know if this is covered by any
13 kind of mystery or secrecy. I would feel more comfortable if someone
14 else than me, meaning the former chief of investigations or
15 Deputy Prosecutor at that time, would be the person answering the
16 question. But since it's a lot of moment for a question that is quite
17 obvious and basic, yes, for sure there was someone in charge of liaising
18 with foreign embassies.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. That was, in fact, the question.
20 Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
22 When I ask a question that can be answered with yes or no, I
23 appeal to you, in view of the fact that Mr. Ruez, who used to work for
24 the OTP and who is answering the questions, I believe he should provide
25 the answer and not Mr. McCloskey. That's the first thing.
1 Second, if the Rule applies to the intelligence service of the
2 United States, then it should also apply to the intelligence service of
3 the Republika Srpska Army, because all of the documents that we've seen
4 here are from the intelligence service of the Republika Srpska Army.
5 Thank you.
6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
7 Q. My next question: Does the term "American National Intelligence
8 Office" mean anything to you, which is part of the Ministry of Defence of
9 the United States and which has its headquarters in Virginia
10 you -- could you answer that question? And if you don't know the answer,
11 just say you don't know. Thank you.
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. Thank you. Does "KX-11" mean anything to you?
14 A. Nothing.
15 Q. I apologise. I made an error. I actually meant "KH-11." Thank
17 A. Nothing more.
18 Q. Thank you. Did you have an opportunity to read the report of the
19 Dutch Institute for War Documents, Addendum 2? Thank you.
20 A. I did not read it.
21 Q. Thank you. We will not ask to have it on our screens because
22 we've already lost a lot of time.
23 But let me ask you this: Did you in any way check the
24 authenticities of the photos that you received from the United States?
25 Thank you.
1 A. I could not assess the date, though, as I told -- when what can
2 be seen on the pictures gives a confirmation of witness testimonies, it
3 highlights on one aspect of what happened these days, I mean the dates
4 the photographs are dates [sic]. And for the rest, the authenticity at
5 least of what is on the ground, because I systematically went personally
6 on these spots and could assess that, indeed, the photograph depicts the
7 area we were looking for.
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ruez. We saw yesterday the difference between --
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues]... could you
10 please let Judge Nyambe first put a question to the witness.
11 JUDGE NYAMBE: I have a question for the witness.
12 In answer to the question, "Did you in any way check the
13 authenticity of the photographs that you received from the United
14 States," your answer is, "I systematically went personally on these spots
15 and could assess that, indeed, the photographs depict areas we were
16 looking for."
17 Is this the same as checking the authenticity of the pictures?
18 THE WITNESS: In a way, yes, since at least the authenticity is
19 regarding the location the photograph is supposed to speak about. So
20 when it is a photograph of, let's say, Nova Kasaba football pitch, for
21 example, at least the authenticity is that the picture shows, indeed, the
22 football pitch of Nova Kasaba and not the one of Bratunac or God knows
23 where. So that's one aspect of the authenticity.
24 Then the other aspect of the authenticity are the markings on it.
25 As I said at one point, the hour can be more or less checked when you
1 look at the shadows and when you know at what month the photograph was
2 taken, because of the position of the sun. Then the date, for sure, is
3 impossible to assess, but when the events that can be seen on the
4 photograph match events that witnesses date at a certain date, it's an
5 additional confirmation of the authenticity, as far as I see it.
6 JUDGE NYAMBE: So your simple answer is, yes, you checked the
7 authenticity of the pictures?
8 THE WITNESS: Let's say I naturally checked it by my activities,
9 but the purpose was, indeed, not to believe at the first stage that it
10 was not authentic. It's coming from a serious government source, so my
11 assessment was, anyhow, that basically, yes, it is authentic. But then
12 the observations on the ground and others, in my opinion, confirm that
13 they are absolutely authentic, yes.
14 JUDGE NYAMBE: Okay, thank you.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
16 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Q. Mr. Ruez, are you the proper person to be an expert able to
18 assess authenticity?
19 A. I do not testify with the status of an expert, but with one of a
20 witness, I think, if I remember well.
21 Q. Thank you. I asked you whether you asked that authenticity be
22 verified, so thank you. You did or you didn't?
23 A. I can only repeat what I previously said. There was no specific
24 investigation launched to verify the authenticity of material provided by
25 a state government of the US
1 how I could, in my opinion, confirm they were authentic, I already
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ruez. I asked you about checking out the
4 authenticity of the date or information. I asked you how that was done.
5 I didn't ask you whether you did that in the field or not, so I'm
6 satisfied with your answer. You didn't involve anybody else, so thank
7 you, yes.
8 A. In that case, I would correct. There was a large team involved
9 in checking that, sir. It's named the Exhumation Team. Most of these
10 pictures we used in order to find and pin-point the position of mass
11 graves. We even were at one stage allowed to take the pictures out of
12 the US Embassy to take them with us. This is the basic purpose to avoid
13 walking too much in the areas where those who were delocated, the primary
14 mass graves did put them, so in areas destroyed by war and stuffed with
15 land-mines. So the goal was not to walk too much away from the asphalt
16 road, as you can imagine. So the confirmation of the authenticity is
17 coming very simply from the fact when, when you have ground dated
18 5th July, and when on another picture you have disturbed soil dated 25
19 July, when you go on that spot, you take your shovel, you dig, and you
20 find multiple bodies, some of them with hands attached in the back, some
21 with blindfolds, obviously non-combatants, this proves the authenticity
22 of these pictures, as far as I am concerned.
23 Q. Mr. Ruez, all those pictures, were they in the area of
24 responsibility of the American forces of KFOR in that part of
25 Republika Srpska? Thank you.
1 A. Negative. Half of them were in the area of responsibility of
2 Multi-Division North, so indeed Americans, and all the area north,
3 starting at the execution site of the dam, was under the responsibility
4 of the Russian forces, who provided us security when we were going and
5 finding places in this area.
6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ruez. Could you tell me whether the Russian
7 forces belonged to Sector North of the American Division of KFOR?
8 A. Yes, they did.
9 Q. Thank you. Mr. Ruez, did you pay for these photographs, so that
10 the Defence can know about that? And if you did, how much?
11 A. Not one dollar, as far as I am concerned.
12 Q. Thank you. Did you ask for the photographs of Muslim forces in
13 Srebrenica from the moment the column set out to the breakthrough of the
14 column in Baljkovici? Thank you.
15 A. Yes, this is how we got the one that shows fresh traces of
16 shelling in the area of Konjevici [phoen]. It was the only one of very
17 weak interest that we got on this, because, again, the fate of this
18 column, aside the surrender aspect of the biggest part of it, was not the
19 topic of the investigation.
20 Q. Thank you. Does the that mean that you did not ask for
21 photographs of Muslim forces breaking through the area of defence where
22 the losses were incurred and casualties?
23 A. I was not an intelligence officer at the OTP. I was an
24 investigator, General.
25 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us who made the selection of photographs
1 that you were to study?
2 A. The selection was made by our request, and then we received
3 material that matched or not our request. Who the -- at the final thing
4 made the selection, I have no idea.
5 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me why there is not a single aerial
6 photograph showing the formation of the column, the movement of the
7 column, when they encountered ambushes, breaking through, and so on?
8 Thank you. The column of the 28th Division of the BH Army, I mean.
9 A. Yes, I know, and I repeat it for many times again. I never made
10 such a request, for the simple reason that the military history of this
11 fall of the enclave is none of our business. Our business is to deal
12 with the fate of a people who surrendered, who were captured, and who
13 were under the control of the security branch of the Bosnian Serb Army.
14 This is the guts of this case. The fate of this column, the battle, all
15 this will -- may be in the history books of Republika Srpska.
16 Q. Thank you. Now, if we were to have a photograph of the fighting
17 that was going on and the ambushes that they passed through, you would
18 have the location as well at which the fatalities happened and where they
19 were perhaps buried. Would you agree with that? Would you have that?
20 A. You had the same question yesterday. I told you that looking for
21 the bodies of missing in action is the business of governments. It's not
22 the business of the OTP to find the graves of people who have been killed
23 in battle. Our goal is to find the graves of people who have been
25 Q. Thank you. Mr. Ruez, can you tell me whether it was your task,
1 as an OTP investigator, to provide something that would be of use to the
2 Defence as well?
3 A. Yes, absolutely, and not only for the Defence, but for any other
4 case that the OTP was dealing with, wherever the victims were Bosniaks or
5 Serbs. And, indeed, this happened from time to time. It's a normal way
6 of functioning.
7 Q. Thank you. [No interpretation]
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'll stop you. We didn't receive the
9 interpretation. There was a problem, obviously.
10 Could you please repeat the last question. There was no
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
13 I was asking Mr. Ruez, in view of his contacts with the
14 representatives of the American government, whether he could, for the
15 purposes of the Defence and the use of the Defence, access certain
16 photographs that we need and not only photographs that the Prosecution
17 needs for the indictment. Thank you.
18 THE WITNESS: I think I answered. I was working for the OTP, not
19 trying to compile whatever evidence that would have confirmed the
20 unconfirmable. What could, anyhow, not be confirmed was that nothing
21 happened in Srebrenica. My answer is about the fact that if, indeed, we
22 had came across information --
23 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ruez. Yes, I'm clear on that, and I'll have to
25 move on to another area because my time is limited.
1 And my first question is this: How often did you interview
2 witnesses together with Mr. Peter McCloskey? Thank you.
3 And may we have up on e-court 1D109 next, please. Thank you.
4 A. I conducted a few interviews together with Peter McCloskey at the
5 moment we were at the stage of interviewing personnel from the
6 Bosnian Serb Army, so that was mainly, if I recall well, end of 1998,
7 year 1999, and also part of 2000. The precise number of personnel we
8 interviewed during that process, I could not remember well, but I would
9 assess maybe -- maybe between 10 and 15 persons, roughly.
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ruez. We have the document on our screens, 1D109.
11 May we have page 2 displayed, please. It's an interview -- the
12 transcript of an interview with a Prosecution witness, Drazen Erdemovic,
13 who appeared before this Tribunal, and it was conducted by Mr. Ruez and
14 Mr. McCloskey.
15 I'm going to read out a part of the instructions given to a
16 witness, and after that I'm going to put a series of questions to you.
17 Peter McCloskey says:
18 "Another thing that's important for the Court, and not this
19 coming-up court, but if there is a trial and you will be a witness for
20 the Prosecution, it will be required by the Rules of Court that you
21 answer the questions simply and directly, and it is actually much better
22 for the lawyers that you answer that way in court because then we
23 control -- we control how much information the Court sees."
24 Now, my question -- first question to you is this: When the
25 proofing session was held, was one of your aims to control the quantity
1 of information that the Court is supposed to see? Thank you.
2 A. Let me answer for my part.
3 As an investigator, my goal, like an intelligence officer in the
4 army, is to get as much information as possible. On the other hand, the
5 professional activity of a prosecutor is not something that I'm supposed
6 to discuss. I'm not a prosecutor. I was heading an investigation. Then
7 the strategy of a prosecutor, it is really a question to be asked to the
8 Prosecutor, not to me.
9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ruez. Tell me what role you were in then, when
10 you said that, and what role was Peter McCloskey in?
11 A. You mean during this specific interview?
12 Q. That's right, yes, with Erdemovic.
13 A. It's simple. All interviews with Drazen Erdemovic, my interest,
14 in terms of an investigator, was to find as much to take out of him as
15 much information he was ready to provide, and the role of the Prosecutor
16 is also to inform him about his rights, the limits he should not
17 overpass, the risk he takes when he says things that can involve himself,
18 and so on. So there is a -- it's a kind of -- it's a role of legal
19 advice to a person who is under interrogation.
20 Q. Thank you. And what function was he performing at the time?
21 Mr. McCloskey, I mean. Thank you.
22 A. I'm not 100 per cent sure, but I would think that he was the
23 trial attorney for the Erdemovic case at that time. I don't know the
24 date of this interview, because we conducted many with Drazen Erdemovic.
25 Q. Thank you. But you didn't answer my previous question. Was it
1 the purpose to control the information that the Court sees, yes or no?
2 Because you gave us an extensive answer to the first question.
3 A. Again, I can only speak for myself, what my goal is. Reorient
4 your question to the relevant person. I cannot answer in the name of
5 another person.
6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ruez. Now, on page 3 of that same transcript
7 where you're proofing Mr. Erdemovic for his testimony, Mr. McCloskey says
8 as follows, and I quote:
9 "We're going to practice on concise -- precise answers to
10 Mr. Ruez's questions. But we can make pauses when it comes to questions
11 which are precise, and then you can explain to us whatever you want and
12 you can talk about everything you wish to talk about."
13 Do you remember how you practiced this, and am I right in saying
14 that this was a proofing session -- or, rather, taking interviews from
15 him, and while there were breaks you weren't recording that and he could
16 say whatever he liked, but once you started recording, he couldn't say
17 anything? Am I right in saying that?
18 A. No, this sounds very strange to me, this things about
19 recording -- stopping recording. Either we record and we record
20 absolutely everything from the first minute to the last one, and I
21 actually even say from the first to the last second, or we don't record
22 anything because we are in -- off conversation. So, no, I don't see the
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you should be aware of the fact that
25 you are -- your quotations are parts of those remarks of Mr. McCloskey,
1 not of this witness.
2 Please carry on.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
5 But here, the witness was present as an investigator, and he
6 practiced with the witness, he drilled the witness.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's not necessary to explain it. But if you put
8 parts of this interview to this witness, you should be aware of the fact
9 that you are only quoting those parts referring to Mr. McCloskey. And
10 once -- some minutes ago, you just said, in your question, What you said
11 there in this part of this interview, but it was, in fact, a part and
12 there was a quotation of Mr. McCloskey. Be very careful, please.
13 Carry on.
14 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Q. It says:
16 "We will practice on concise answers to Mr. Ruez's questions, but
17 we can take breaks, and the precise questions you can talk to us about,
18 what you feel you need to and anything you want."
19 And that is what Peter McCloskey says to the witness,
20 Mr. Erdemovic, and he is questioned by Mr. Ruez, so that's why I asked
21 him. It's very important, what a proofing session looks like for a
22 witness that is to appear in court. Thank you.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Proofing -- I think the date of this interview
25 should be set out. It is nowhere near any trial.
1 THE WITNESS: There's no proofing session.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I think the general knows what a proofing
3 session is, and so I think this should be -- should be set out and at
4 least the witness be given the date of this thing so we can put it in
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Put a question to the witness.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Thank
8 you, Mr. President.
9 This interview was conducted with Mr. Erdemovic on the 6th of
10 November, 1996, and I asked this question because that same witness will
11 be a witness in these proceedings.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's absolutely not necessary to explain why you
13 ask a question. Please put a question to the witness.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will, but the Prosecutor wanted
15 me to tell the witness when the interview was conducted, so I did. Thank
17 THE WITNESS: I want to point out that as far as I see the thing,
18 this is not a proofing session. I -- in my recollection, I never
19 participated in any proofing session. The proofing session is between
20 the witness and the Prosecutor. This was an interview, no proofing. We
21 should see the start of it in order to make sure. Maybe the Prosecutor
22 added, during this interview, some methodology for the witness in order
23 to concede his answer and, in a way, in bracket, train him to answer
24 properly the questions, but this is not a proofing session. This is an
25 interview. I do not participate in proofing sessions.
1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ruez.
3 Well, from the next question, we can see whether it was a
4 preparatory meeting with you, proofing meeting, or for the Court. And I
5 quote further, Mr. McCloskey, during the interview you had with
6 Mr. Erdemovic, say --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could we have a reference, please.
8 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Page 7 of the transcript:
10 "You were very good in taking on responsibility. The only reason
11 for which I now mention this is that if you have any reason not to feel
12 bad every time something bad happens, after some time the Judges will
13 think --" so the Judges, not the investigators, "the Judges will think
14 that you're not undertaking responsibility. So you need to tell the
15 truth, as you have been doing, and explaining things. And we will do our
16 best to help you convince the Judges about all the good things you have
17 done so they understand that. Do you understand?"
18 And then:
19 "I'm just offering one piece of advice. I'm only offering you
20 some advice, that if you always offer excuses all the time, it will start
21 to turn around and look bad for you with the Judges. It is a combination
22 of explaining them about things so they understand."
23 Now, from this I take it that it was a proofing session,
24 preparing him for appearing in court. Thank you.
25 Now, my question is this: Can you explain to us all the things
1 that you and Mr. McCloskey did to convince the Trial Chamber of the truth
2 of Erdemovic's testimony?
3 A. I can only answer for myself. What I did was to take as many
4 details as possible from Erdemovic's testimony in order to confront what
5 he was saying with observations on the ground, scientific police analysis
6 of the terrain, finding the mass grave he was talking about, and then
7 finding the secondary graves in which this 1.200 people he alleged were
8 killed that day had been buried, plus the 500 at Pilica Dom, a crime
9 scene that without his assistance we would never have found because there
10 was absolutely no survivor from this place. So what we did, indeed, to
11 confirm the story of Erdemovic, at least the part of the story that we
12 could confirm because linked with the crime scenes we were busy with, is
13 what I just explained. That's what we did for him.
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ruez. At the time, did Mr. McCloskey tell
15 Erdemovic the following:
16 "Nothing will be used against you, the fact will not be used
17 against you, whether you were there to arrest him, or kidnap him, or kill
18 him, whether you're telling the truth or not"?
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir --
20 THE INTERPRETER: May we have a reference, please? Thank you.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Chamber would like to have a reference.
22 Where do we find that?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. That quotation is taken from
24 page 11. Thank you for your assistance, Mr. President. Thank you.
25 THE WITNESS: The only thing is that I have no clue of who we are
1 referring to when it is said "arrest him," "kidnap him," or whatever. I
2 don't know who --
3 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Just a moment and I'll ask you the question. Thank you,
5 Mr. Ruez. I'm going to ask you a question. And when you read the
6 transcript on page 11, it is Mr. McCloskey talking to Mr. Erdemovic, who
7 took part in the proofing session.
8 Now, could you answer the next question, please. Did you prepare
9 any witness, telling them how they should answer questions, questions
10 that you assumed the opposite side, that is to say, the Defence, could
11 ask them or the Trial Chamber? Just a yes-or-no answer, please. Did you
12 prepare them or not?
13 A. It's not my role to do so.
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ruez. Now, on page 16 of that same document - and
15 may we have page 16 displayed on our screens, please, once again
16 referring to Drazen Erdemovic - this is what was stated:
17 "This is how it was, this is what happened: I told you we were
18 ordered not to shoot at the civilians, because we called the civilians to
19 come out, and I told you we were ordered not to shoot at the civilians."
20 Now, my question to you is this: As an investigator, yourself,
21 do you remember these facts, since they are very important for the
22 investigation being conducted during a trial? Because it says that there
23 was an order not to shoot at the civilians. So who issued that order, to
24 the best of your knowledge, to Erdemovic? Thank you.
25 A. Drazen Erdemovic, as you said, will come and testify. The
1 recollection I have of this is that just before the
2 10th Sabotage Detachment Group entered -- I mean, went down the hill to
3 enter Srebrenica, they had a short briefing where, indeed, some pieces of
4 International Law were reminded to them, and I would think -- I don't
5 remember, but the direct commander at that moment was Lieutenant Pellnas,
6 so I believe this was a little chat from Lieutenant Pellnas.
7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ruez.
8 Could the investigator be shown 65 ter 4037.
9 While we wait for it to come up on the screens, I will tell you
10 what kind of document this is. This is a document from the Main Staff of
11 the Republika Srpska Army, dated the 9th of September, 1991, the author
12 of which is the accused before you, and this in his role as the assistant
13 commander for intelligence and security.
14 In the relevant portions, it says -- can we have it before us?
15 Do we see it? And I quote -- there is only one page to this document in
17 "The president of the republic is satisfied with the results of
18 combat operations around Srebrenica and has agreed with the continuation
19 of operations for the take-over of Srebrenica, disarming of Muslim
20 terrorist gangs, and complete demilitarisation of the Srebrenica enclave.
21 "The president of the republic ordered that in the follow-up
22 combat operations, full protection be ensured to UNPROFOR members and the
23 Muslim civilian population, and that they be guaranteed safety in the
24 event of their cross-over to the territory of Republika Srpska."
25 Now, this is the quoted portion, and then it reads on:
1 "In accordance with the order of the president of
2 Republika Srpska, you must issue an order to all combat units
3 participating in combat operations around Srebrenica to offer maximum
4 protection and safety to all UNPROFOR members and civilians, the civilian
5 Muslim population -- and the civilian Muslim population. You must order
6 subordinate units to refrain from destroying civilian targets unless
7 forced to do so because of strong enemy resistance. Ban the torching of
8 residential buildings, and treat the civilian population and war
9 prisoners in accordance with the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949."
10 I have now read out a portion of an order sent from the
11 Main Staff on the 9th of July, 1995.
12 Now, my question for you is this: Have you had occasion to see
13 this document before, the document that I was quoting from, while you
14 were an investigator for the OTP? Thank you.
15 A. This one, no.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 I would like to tender this document into evidence. Thank you.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I see a problem. The witness said
19 that he doesn't know anything about this document. He hasn't seen it.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. That's exactly what I
21 asked him, whether he had seen it while he was an investigator, and he
22 said he didn't. And this shows that Erdemovic, too, could have been
23 issued this order, because I asked him prior to this whether they had
24 been given orders not to open fire on civilians, and now I quoted from
25 this order that was also issued to Erdemovic. And I would like to tender
1 it into evidence because Erdemovic will come to testify in this trial.
2 And we can ask the witness whether this is the same order that was
3 mentioned during the proofing sessions conducted with Mr. Erdemovic by
4 Mr. Ruez and McCloskey. Thank you.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 The Prosecution has no objection to this going into evidence. It
8 will be discussed by many witnesses and is a fundamental document for the
9 Prosecution as well as, apparently, the Defence, so I see no harm in it
10 going in. It might be good that you just have full access to it.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I apologise to
14 interpreters for the noises that I'm causing. Thank you.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Chamber is of the view that this may be a
16 very important document. However, it will not be received with the
17 evidence of this witness. It may be tendered by either party at a later
18 stage with another witness, just to follow the normal procedure in this
19 trial. You should think about some other documents you have used with
20 this witness if you want to tender them.
21 But now carry on, please, Mr. Tolimir. This one will not be
22 received at this time.
23 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
24 Q. Mr. Ruez, do you remember whether Mr. Erdemovic told you that
25 they had been ordered not to shoot at civilians? Thank you.
1 A. I do not remember precisely what this -- his statement was about
2 this little moment before they entered the town and found this man who
3 they beat up and slit his throat. I don't remember the content. There
4 is most certainly a paragraph in his interview that details this, this
5 aspect, but I don't remember this part of the interview. That was an
6 interview and not a proofing session.
7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ruez. Did I quote the conversation or the
8 interview that you conducted together with Mr. McCloskey with
9 Mr. Erdemovic and that we see before us here on page 16?
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We don't have that on the screen anymore.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we then please
12 pull that document back up on the screen, because it's very important.
13 Erdemovic said:
14 "I told you that we were ordered not to shoot at civilians."
15 Thank you. Now, if this is irrelevant for the Court, it's fine,
16 I can just move on.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The question was if you -- if the accused quoted
18 correctly from this document.
19 THE WITNESS: Yeah, and I think the people on the spot obeyed.
20 They did not shoot; they just slit their throat.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
22 In view of the fact that a criminal -- that a crime was
23 committed, it is important to know that he said that there had been an
24 order about not shooting at civilians, and this document was offered as
25 proof of that. Thank you.
1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Now, my next question is -- I can no longer dwell on this because
3 of time constraints, so I will quote again your words from the interview
4 to "The Monitor." That's 1D60, on page 7.
5 Could we please pull up document 1D60, and that will be page 8 in
6 the English translation. We have been provided a translation, I've just
7 been informed. Thank you.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could we please see always the first page first
9 so that we know what it is about.
10 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 While we are looking at this first page, I will say, Mr. Ruez, to
12 you that in response to the reporter from "Monitor," you say:
13 "General Milan Gvero and Zdravko Tolimir from the Main Staff have
14 been mentioned on several occasions in the Krstic trial."
15 And your reply was, and I quote --
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could we now have page 7 on the screen.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Page 8 in the English
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In English, that's on page 8.
20 Can we go on?
21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Ruez answers:
23 "Yes, they were mentioned. At this point, I would leave Gvero
24 aside. This does not mean there is nothing there. Tolimir is an
25 entirely different kind of story, and that is why these investigations
1 need to be long-term."
2 Can we have the next page of this document:
3 "That is why these investigations need to be long-term. We were
4 never able to talk to Tolimir. People did not say much about him. The
5 main organiser in Srebrenica from the Intelligence and Security Service
6 were under his command. The chief organisers from Srebrenica, from the
7 Security Services, were under his command.
8 "Monitor: Do you mean -- do you think he is in Belgrade
9 "I don't know where he is. Probably only a small circle knows
10 where he is, and where he was, and what he did in Srebrenica. Maybe he
11 was fishing on the Drina
12 field, and as a security person, he tried to separated people. I don't
13 know what he did in Srebrenica. It would be interesting to investigate
14 deeper into Tolimir's role, if at all, because he was one of those who
15 has been somewhat neglected in the entire case."
16 My question, Mr. Ruez, is this: Is this what you stated, yes or
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you. In this trial, at the very beginning, you said that
20 you did not investigate the events in Zepa, and here you are discussing
21 what General Tolimir did in Zepa. If you did not investigate the Zepa
22 incident, how, then, can you claim that what he did there was separate
24 And the second question that I have for you is: Have you ever
25 heard anyone say that Tolimir was in Srebrenica?
1 A. On the first question, yes, indeed, I confirm I did not take part
2 in the investigation regarding the events in Zepa. But, on the other
3 hand, working at the OTP and knowing the connection between, at least in
4 the close chronology, Zepa and Srebrenica, I had also access to
5 information that I will say off records, and this is the reason why I
6 dropped this info to this journalist, though, indeed, I was not
7 officially in charge of that part of investigation. But I don't doubt
8 that since it's part of your indictment, this evidence will be brought in
9 front of the Court.
10 And for the second part of your question, yeah, regarding your
11 presence in Srebrenica, indeed, except if things changed after my
12 departure in 2001, we have no photograph or record of your presence in
13 Srebrenica town during the dates of the 11, 12, and 13, but maybe the
14 Prosecution has something on this. I personally have no recollection of
15 your physical presence on the -- on these spots.
16 Q. Thank you. When you say that Tolimir was neglected in the
17 investigation, what do you mean exactly? Do you mean that there were no
18 statements -- witness statements about Tolimir, or are you referring to
19 something else, that simply no investigations were conducted into
20 Tolimir's case?
21 A. The journalist probably didn't quote me well, because I never say
22 "Tolimir," I always say "General Tolimir," but that's a detail. It's not
23 a reality that you were neglected. It's because, indeed, such an
24 investigation takes a lot of time. The reason why it needs continuity
25 and, in this instance, to determine the responsibility of the ones and
1 the others, it needs to go from the bottom to the top and not from the
2 top to the bottom, so I think that the rest of the presentation the
3 Prosecutor builds his case around will be, no doubt -- I don't doubt to
4 show that, indeed, the persons who have been in charge of all the
5 logistical aspect, let's say, in terms of finding locations and preparing
6 things, were, indeed, members of the security branch of the Bosnian Serb
7 Army. So this is maybe the reason why I said that General Tolimir had
8 been neglected. But I see it has not been neglected too long, because
9 after my departure there was an indictment against you, General.
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ruez. We will now move on to my next question.
11 You said the following about General Mladic in "The Monitor"
12 interview, and that will be on page 9 of the English version:
13 "I don't know him, but I think that he is the kind of man who is
14 capable of taking a challenge on the spot -- accepting a challenge on the
15 spot. For instance, at sick man would come up with a sudden idea, Let's
16 kill them all."
17 Mladic would hook up or tag on to that in view of the things that
18 he publicly said in 1994 and the intention to annihilate Muslims for
19 Muslim reasons, and all these things are, in fact --
20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not find the part that is
21 being quoted.
22 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
23 Q. So did you say this or didn't you say this? I'm just asking you
24 to confirm so I can move on.
25 A. Precisely, I could not. But what I could confirm is that he
1 reiterated his will as soon as 11 July, since we have him on film saying
2 that this was -- the time had come to take revenge on the Turks. So it
3 was an additional quote that I could add to this, but that's part of
4 General Mladic's case.
5 And I would add, also, the same idea, that these promises are
6 made sometimes written and sometimes orally, that we also have him on
7 film reassuring the population that no one would harm them and they had
8 nothing to fear, so that's a bit of follow-up of the written order. He
9 gave it even orally, with additional promises.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness now please be
11 shown 1D59. This is the statement that Mr. Ruez made before the -- in
12 the French parliamentary hearings, and he said the following --
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir --
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] "The greatest surprise was the
15 attitude of General Mladic --"
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are you tendering this "Monitor" article?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I asked yesterday for it to be
18 admitted into evidence.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I just got the information we have that already
20 as an exhibit, D30 [sic]. Thank you.
21 Please carry on.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
23 I now quote Mr. Ruez's words, his statement before the
24 Parliamentary Committee, page 7 of the Serbian:
25 "The greatest surprise was the attitude of General Mladic in
1 1994, when he gave an interview to a newspaper whose title I cannot
3 This is what you said. You can see it before you. What uprising
4 from the early 19th century are you referring to here?
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we get a specific reference to the English
7 so that Mr. Ruez can read this, so that we can all follow?
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It would be very helpful.
9 And I take the opportunity to correct myself. On page 31, line
10 11, it should be "D31."
11 Can you give a reference, Mr. Tolimir?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's on page 7 in the English
13 version, the last paragraph on the page. Thank you.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Ruez, do you find the question of the
15 accused --
16 THE WITNESS: No, but never mind, I understand the question. I
17 mean, I'm not a historian, but it's always the same historical reference
18 to the battle where the Serbs tried to stop the Ottomans.
19 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ruez. But I asked you whether you could tell us
21 what statement of General Mladic's was this where he actually spoke about
22 his objectives relating and in reference to Srebrenica? I could not find
23 any such statement. Thank you.
24 A. I don't remember either, but I would think it could be found in
25 the documentation that is prepared by the OTP in case of a future trial
1 of General Mladic. But I don't have the record in memory either. But,
2 again, though I don't remember this one, we have on videotape his
3 comments dated 11 July.
4 Q. Thank you. You were referring to 1994 here, so this was before
5 Srebrenica and not what General Mladic said after Srebrenica. This here
6 is a reference to 1994. It says:
7 "The most surprising aspect in this was the attitude of
8 General Mladic ... in 1994."
9 So did you read then something about this even before Srebrenica?
10 It's very important for this Trial Chamber to know about, if you had any
11 such knowledge. Thank you.
12 A. I also realise it will be very important to find this record for
13 the day of the trial of General Mladic, if ever. For the purpose of this
14 one, I'm sorry to say that I don't remember the reference of this.
15 Q. Thank you. May God bless Mladic, but we will not talk about
16 this. I only asked you, since you gave this statement before the
17 Parliament, to repeat it here before this Trial Chamber.
18 Now, let us go back to the objectives of your investigation and
19 what type of instructions you gave to those who worked on trying to find
20 mass graves. Were numerous experts engaged for that purpose, including
21 forensics experts? Thank you.
22 A. Yes, they were.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Could the witness please be shown the report prepared by
25 Mr. Haglund. That's 1D56. Thank you.
1 While we wait for the document to come up on the screens, let me
2 tell the witness that this is an expert report provided by
3 Professor Garland [as interpreted], whom you know. He's a crime officer,
4 and he was working on a forensic investigation of the Cerska locality
5 mass grave.
6 After we've seen the first page, could we please see page 10 in
7 the Serbian version, second paragraph. And in English, that will be on
8 page 9, the third paragraph. Thank you.
9 Thank you. We have the Serbian version, and in a moment you will
10 also see it in English on the left-hand side of the screen. Could we see
11 page 9, please, paragraph 3. Thank you.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Page 9, please.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The autopsy of the witness -- of
14 the victims began on the 31st of July, 1996, and lasted until
15 22nd August 1996
16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could we have page 9 of
17 the English version, please, in English.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 I've been informed now that the correct page is on the monitor.
20 Thank you.
21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
22 Q. "Autopsy examinations were carried out at a temporary morgue
23 established at a war-damaged clothing factory on the outskirts of the
24 town of Kalesija in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Autopsy examinations were
25 carried out under the direction of Dr. Robert H. Kirchner, director of
1 the International Forensic Programme of Physicians for Human Rights."
2 "Finalisation of cause and manner of death, as well as editing of
3 final autopsy reports, was facilitated by ICTY legal adviser," the
4 International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, in other
5 words, "Peter McCloskey."
6 My question is this: Mr. Ruez, the examination and establishing
7 the causes and manner of death, did that mean that what you were supposed
8 to establish was whether someone was killed execution-style, or killed in
9 combat, or in some other way? Thank you.
10 A. As an investigator, it is, indeed, my role to find -- ask people
11 to find out about these questions, but it's not my role to do it
12 personally. This is why there are experts doing this type of assessment.
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ruez. What I asked you was this: The
14 establishment of the cause and manner of death, does that mean that what
15 needs to be established first was whether somebody was killed in action,
16 not who did it, but whether he was killed in action, whether they were
17 executed, killed by shelling, and so on?
18 A. Yes, I repeat, this is absolutely the role of someone who is
19 leading such an investigation, absolutely.
20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ruez. Answer this next question, please. What
21 place and role did Mr. Peter McCloskey play in the team?
22 A. At that time, the structure of the team was that there was an
23 investigation team leader. That was myself. And there was a legal
24 adviser, who was Mr. Peter McCloskey. So the role of Peter McCloskey as
25 the legal adviser in such a team is to make sure that the material we
1 collect would be ready for presentation to a courtroom, and so assess the
2 quality of the material in order to make sure if we can use it or if we
3 cannot use it in a courtroom.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I think, taking into account the
6 time, we must have our first break now.
7 And we adjourn and resume quarter past 4.00.
8 --- Recess taken at 3.49 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 4.21 p.m.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir and Mr. Gajic, I would like to raise
11 some question.
12 We are quite concerned about the time when we received the new
13 notification about exhibits -- about documents you want to use during the
14 cross-examination of this witness.
15 Yesterday, in the afternoon during our hearing, you notified the
16 Chamber, the Registry, and the Prosecution about the list of witnesses,
17 and you did that today again. I would like to remind you that we have
18 issued an order with the guidance of, I think, 22nd of February, that
19 this notification should be sent to the other party and to the Registry
20 24 or 48 hours in advance. This is a very late stage during
21 cross-examination, and this is not the appropriate and proper way to deal
22 with that problem.
23 Not to waste time, we should continue cross-examination, but
24 please bear in mind, Mr. Tolimir, that you should finish with your
25 cross-examination half past 6.00 of today's hearing so that the
1 Prosecution has the possibility for re-examination.
2 Please carry on.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
4 I'd like to say good afternoon to everybody in this courtroom and
5 all those attending the trial, and may God's will be done.
6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Now, I have another question. Mr. Ruez, a moment ago we spoke
8 about Haglund's report, and just to remind you, he says:
9 "Informing the ultimate conclusions and the drafting of a final
10 version of the autopsy reports, I was assisted by the legal adviser of
11 the ICTY, Peter McCloskey."
12 Now, my question to you is this: Is it the role of a legal
13 adviser to establish the cause of death and manner of death and to draft
14 possible reports, or is that the work of a forensic expert? Thank you.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: There's no indication in the record that the
17 Prosecutor was taking part in establishing cause of death. To assume a
18 fact that's not in evidence of that nature is improper.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. And I think, if I recall that
20 correctly, the witness answered that question about his role into
21 investigations of cause of death.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
23 I quoted from the document a moment ago. 1D56 was the number of
24 the document, so may we have it called up again, please. It was a report
25 by Professor Haglund, the crime and forensic investigation of the Cerska
1 mass grave, and I quoted his last sentence where he said that in the
2 drafting of the final autopsy report, they were assisted by the legal
3 adviser of the ICTY, Peter McCloskey.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Would you please indicate and give a reference
5 where you and we can find this portion?
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, microphone.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D56, page 10. It's the last
8 sentence on that page. Thank you. It's the last sentence of the third
9 paragraph in English: "Finalisation of cause and manner of death,"
10 et cetera.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In fact, I don't find it, Mr. Tolimir.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we have that portion
13 highlighted for the President, please.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, I found it. And please now
15 put a question to the witness.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I was asking the witness, and let
17 me repeat the question, this:
18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Is it the role of a legal adviser to establish the cause and
20 manner of death, and in editing a final autopsy report, or is that the
21 work of a forensic expert? Thank you, Witness. And could you please
22 answer the question, Mr. Ruez?
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, I think this witness will be able
24 to answer this question in a proper way.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: I understand, Mr. President. However, he's
1 deliberately misstating this paragraph. It says "facilitated," and he is
2 misstating it. And I don't think it's fair to require the witness to
3 read every deliberate misstatement into a question.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It was quoted, and it is on the record, that the
5 word, in fact, is "facilitated." And the witness will be able to answer
6 this question.
7 Mr. Ruez.
8 THE WITNESS: My answer is that I was not an eye-witness of the
9 situation when the legal adviser, at that time Mr. Peter McCloskey,
10 provided, indeed, the guide-lines to the experts in order that they do
11 not commit mistakes in the way they would present their documentation.
12 But what I know as a fact is that never, ever the legal adviser would
13 have interfered with the experts in order to assist them determining the
14 cause of death. This in no way happened.
15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ruez. Now, is what I quoted from the report
17 correct, the report from Professor Haglund? Thank you.
18 A. Now I share the opinion of the Prosecutor when he says you are
19 misreading and misinterpreting what is written in Bill Haglund's reports.
20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ruez. Now, whether I interpreted it or -- did I
21 interpret it or did I quote Dr. Haglund's report? I didn't interpret
22 anything. I was just quoting from the report. Thank you.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What is your question, Mr. Tolimir?
24 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
25 Q. My question is as follows: At that time when this report was
1 tabled by the professor, was Mr. Ruez subordinate -- or, rather, superior
2 to Mr. McCloskey, was he superior -- in a superior position to
3 Mr. McCloskey? Thank you.
4 A. "Superior position" is not the way to put it. I was the
5 investigation team leader. Peter McCloskey was the legal adviser. We
6 took, more or less, all our decisions in common. We had no feeling one
7 was the superior of the other. We were rowing in the same boat.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Ruez.
9 Now, may we have the first page displayed and the 10th page in
10 Serbian displayed, and it's -- or, rather, I'd like to tender page 1 and
11 10 of the Serbian version and page 9 of the English into evidence.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
13 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, may we offer the entire document
15 into evidence so that you may make sense of this? I believe it's been
16 offered under the expert Rule 94 bis, perhaps, and I believe Haglund is
17 92 bis. But, in any event, these -- Haglund and his reports have been
18 offered to this Chamber under the Rules of Procedures and Evidence, and
19 it's -- we have no objection to it coming in, but it should be coming in
20 in a whole so that you can see it all.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, any comment on that?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I do, Mr. President.
23 Professor Haglund is due to appear as a Prosecution witness here,
24 and he's going to testify about the report that he drafted and tabled,
25 and then Mr. McCloskey can tender the document into evidence. And it's
1 practice here that we tender and admit into evidence those portions which
2 are of interest for a particular witness and linked to a particular
3 witness, which the witness can confirm. So I would now like to tender
4 just what I said, page 1 and 10 of the Serbian version and page 9 of the
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Chamber will receive the two pages offered by
8 the accused, and the other portions may be received as an exhibit at a
9 later stage of this case. Thank you.
10 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
11 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D35, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: I've just been informed that we have offered
14 Dr. Haglund's report 92 bis, and so it could be that he does not come
15 here, though we will perhaps reconsider whether we offer him as 92 ter.
16 But I just wanted to make sure that that's clear from the record. He may
17 not come here, pending the outcome of the motion, but we'll, of course,
18 consider it and as the issues have been presented themselves.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for that information.
20 Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.
21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
22 Q. Now, Mr. Ruez, let's move on to another area, since we have used
23 up quite a lot of time on this topic.
24 On page 7 of the transcript, lines 20 to 22, you drew conclusions
25 in the investigation as to the reasons why people were leaving
1 Srebrenica, and I quote - these are your words:
2 "As you probably know, the conclusion of the investigation was
3 that in Potocari the conduct of the Bosnian Army was geared towards
4 instilling fear in people so that they should leave the area of their own
5 free will."
6 Are those your words? And you can look back to the transcript.
7 It's page 7, lines 20 to 22.
8 May we have that displayed, please, if necessary. Thank you.
9 A. I confirm these are my words.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Now may we have the video-recording of the first meeting from the
12 Fontana Hotel, 1995. It lasts for about two and a half minutes of a
13 total of nine minutes, so from nine minutes thirty-six --
14 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Tolimir repeat the times, please.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, could you please repeat the times,
16 as requested by the interpreters.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D111 is the number of the
18 document, from nine minutes thirty-four seconds to twelve minutes fifteen
19 seconds. It's a portion of a conversation when General Mladic is asking
20 questions. Thank you.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "I had a talk with --"
23 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Q. Mr. Ruez, since we've just seen this excerpt, this footage, which
25 has taken up quite a bit of my time, could I ask you to give brief
2 Now, we heard during that excerpt -- or, rather, have you ever
3 seen this footage before? Thank you. Yes or no, please. Thank you.
4 A. I've seen it many times before, indeed.
5 Q. Did you see Karremans -- or, rather, General Mladic asking why he
6 was looking for him?
7 A. General Mladic at that time was desperately looking for a
8 representative of Bosniak Muslim community there, mainly for
9 representatives of the 28th Division.
10 Q. Thank you. Could you tell me what you heard on this footage?
11 Who was looking for whom? Was it Mladic looking for Karremans or
12 Karremans asking for a meeting with Mladic? Which was it?
13 A. You know this is only a very short extract of a long footage.
14 Q. I know that, but I don't have the time to show the entire
15 footage. But did you hear General Mladic say, Why were you looking for
17 A. Yes, because Colonel Karremans wants to discuss the issue of the
18 population which remains within the enclave.
19 Q. Thank you. So was it -- did Colonel Karremans explain to Mladic
20 why he was looking for him; yes or no?
21 A. As we can see it on the film, yes.
22 Q. Thank you. My second question: When this meeting was held at
23 the Fontana
24 A. No, not the 12, in the evening, not the 11, in the evening. They
25 arrived at 12, in the morning.
1 Q. Thank you. My third question: Where were the military-able men
2 at that time that had come to the base; members of the BH Army, that is?
3 A. As you know, most of the members of the BiH Army took off that
4 evening of the 11 to the north of the enclave, to exfiltrate out of the
5 enclave. Those who arrived in Potocari the 11 were, indeed, among them
6 able men, may be [Realtime transcript read in error "mainly"] also
7 members of the 28 Division, but mainly family members, women, elderly.
8 Q. Thank you. Now, Colonel Karremans, did he make a list of the
9 able-bodied men? Thank you.
10 A. I want to point out a mistake in the transcript. It's not
11 "mainly members of the 28th Division," but "may be some members." It's
12 not the same thing. Line 19 -- 16.
13 Returning to the list, yes, I know a list of people who were
14 inside the compound of the UN. The beginning of the list was drafted at
15 that time, indeed, yes.
16 Q. The able-bodied, is that what you mean; yes or no?
17 A. No, I'm talking about a list of those who managed to take refuge
18 within the UN compound. As you know, most of the people were outside,
19 but the UN battalion, despite of the threats of General Mladic, accepted
20 to receive approximately 5.000 people within the UN compound.
21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ruez. We'll come back to the list later on and
22 the number, the figure. The list exists with the United Nations. And
23 now I'd like to move on to another area, but we'll come back to the
24 Fontana Hotel meeting as well.
25 However, for the moment, could you look at some more footage, and
1 I'd like to hear your comments to what we're going to show you. Thank
3 Mr. Ruez, do you know there's a film called "Resolution 819,"
4 where the main character is, in fact, you? Have you ever seen that film,
5 that footage?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us just briefly take a look at
8 a few of the frames of this video-clip just to get an idea what it's
10 Could we please see 1D76, page 1, and then after that page 2.
11 Thank you.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please see page 2.
14 Thank you.
15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Ruez, could you please tell us whether you are the
17 Jean-Rene Ruez mentioned here? Thank you.
18 A. Yes, it is.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Could we now see page 3, please, where we will see that the text
21 speaks for itself. Thank you.
22 Is this enough for your information, so we can move on to page 4?
23 Can we now see page 4, please.
24 Thank you. We have page 4 before us, and we can read on the
1 "The former Yugoslavia
2 The Muslim enclave of Srebrenica is at the point of falling into the
3 hands of the Bosnian Serbs under the command of General Mladic and under
4 orders from Radovan Karadzic. The civilian population is under the
5 protection of the UN Resolution 819."
6 Can we see the next page, please:
7 "The film is inspired by true events, but some characters are
8 completely fictitious."
9 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
10 Q. My question, Mr. Ruez, is this: The character playing you in
11 this movie, his name is --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please repeat the name.
13 THE WITNESS: You want me to tell you the name of the actor; is
14 that correct?
15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
16 Q. No. Could you just tell the Trial Chamber whether the
17 personal -- the character called Calvez in the film, whether that is
18 actually you?
19 A. I am not the one who drafted the scenario. I never met, except
20 once when the film went out, the actor supposed to play my character.
21 Since, indeed, the person who wrote that scenario inspired himself from
22 part of my activities, and it was written on one of the exhibits, I have,
23 indeed, the feeling that Calvez is supposed to be Ruez. But more than
24 that, I don't know, because I didn't take any part into the conception
25 and the realisation of that fiction based on some reality.
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ruez.
2 Could we now please see on the monitors page 7. That is a
3 photograph, a still from this video-clip, 38 minutes 24 seconds.
4 Mr. Ruez, could you tell us, who is depicted in this photo?
5 A. I have nothing on my screen. Have I something?
6 Q. I thought you had it, because I have it before me.
7 A. This is General Tolimir, as far as I recognise, you know.
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ruez.
9 Could we now see page 8, please. That's the photograph 38
10 minutes 38 seconds. Thank you.
11 Mr. Ruez, could you tell us who is depicted in this photo? Can
12 you identify the persons?
13 A. No, I can't.
14 Q. Who is this individual in the Republika Srpska Army uniform, with
15 a cap on his head? Thank you. Could you tell us who that person is, if
16 you know?
17 A. No. He looks a bit like Mr. Vasic, but since he has a military
18 hat, it's not him. Is that you?
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
20 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Who is standing next to Mr. Tolimir in the photograph? If you
22 identified me there, who is next to this uniformed person, and is this
23 the individual or the actor playing your character, called Calvez, in the
25 A. Indeed, according to his glasses he's wearing and his profile, it
1 could be Benoit Magimel.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see the next photo,
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, do you have a question?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have several
6 questions. I would just like to show the photos that we have selected,
7 and then I would invite Mr. Ruez to comment on them. Thank you.
8 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Mr. Ruez, could you tell us, who is depicted in this photograph,
10 the man with the glasses?
11 A. Listen, I have to insist on one thing. I can comment
12 Mickey Mouse also for you in this courtroom, but I have absolutely
13 nothing to do in the conception and the realisation of this film. So
14 whatever the producer, the cinemaist [sic], et cetera, did in this film,
15 I have no concern and no responsibility in it. I am totally disconnected
16 from this cinematic event.
17 Q. Thank you. Is this character wearing glasses, is that Calvez in
18 the movie?
19 A. He is Benoit Magimel, yes, a French actor.
20 Q. Thank you. And the wounded man, is he pointing with his finger
21 at a photo of General Tolimir?
22 A. As you can see it in this extract of a fiction movie, yes.
23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ruez. Could you tell us what comes to mind when
24 you see this photo from this movie, this still?
25 A. Again, the orientations taken by those who did this film are not
1 of my concern because I didn't give them a hand to do this film.
2 Q. So you cannot tell us what this brings to mind, or can you? What
3 does this photo remind you of?
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. Time is of the essence, and vague
6 questions regarding movies and unreal worlds don't take us anywhere, and
7 I would object to this kind of question. The fact that there is a real
8 photograph of Tolimir, no problem. But your impressions of a movie, this
9 isn't a place for -- you know, time for movie critiques, especially when
10 this witness has nothing to do with this film.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you several times mentioned that
12 there are time restraints. You should deal with the real facts and look
13 at the time. Please -- you have indicated that you will use several
14 documents, but this is perhaps not the best way to deal with evidence.
15 Please go ahead. Please don't -- no discussion now. Please go
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
18 Could we now please see the last part of the movie, as the
19 witness said that this character is actually depicting him? Thank you.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, this is not correct. It is not the
21 witness; it is a movie with actors. And you received the comment of this
22 witness, Mr. Ruez, on that. If you have a question, put it to him, but
23 think of the time.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I did put the question, Is
25 this actor that we see now before us with glasses, is that Calvez? And
1 he said that it was. And now I would just like to see -- for us to see
2 the next photo.
3 Could we please play this video-clip from one minute
4 thirty-three -- 1.33:39 to 1:35:40
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, what is the purpose of showing us a
6 video of a movie, what is the purpose of that? Is that kind of evidence?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
8 I wanted to show here that this witness participated in the
9 preparations for this movie because he did confirm that this actor --
10 this character is probably him, the character that we can now see on our
11 screens with the glasses.
12 And if we could now just see the photos as I requested, the
13 stills that I requested, and we will then end up with that.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Let's see this seven seconds.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Not to waste time, Mr. Tolimir, you should
17 perhaps now stop that and put questions to the witness.
18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
19 Q. Mr. Ruez, what could you see now here in these final clips of
20 this movie? Could you tell us?
21 A. As we all did, scenes from the courtroom.
22 Q. Thank you. Were these actual facts and actual snap-shots or
23 video stills of an actual courtroom here?
24 A. These picture even bear on them the logo of the ICTY, so I'm
25 quite sure, indeed, they are extracts from the courtroom trial.
1 Q. Thank you. Is it common practice to use actual footage from a
2 courtroom with real accused in propaganda-purpose movies of this type?
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you should be aware of the fact that
4 all trials are recorded in the internet, also this trial here in this
5 courtroom, and is available for the whole public around the world.
6 Everybody can use it. That has been done several times. Also, this
7 trial today is recorded in the internet.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, but that
9 footage is not used for propaganda.
10 Could we now just see a video-clip which will explain why I have
11 shown this, and I would appreciate it if we could see the still at two
12 minutes three seconds. Thank you.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Would you please tell us the number of this
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is just the same movie, the
16 same video-clip, a continuation of it. 1D76. Thank you.
17 We have some technical problems, so I'll move on to the next
19 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
20 Q. From what you know, when was it, in July, that Mladic met Calves
21 for the first time, and was this at the Fontana Hotel on the 11th of July
22 that we saw in this movie a few moments ago?
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It might be a problem of interpretation or you
24 mentioned the wrong name. I think you were not referring to Mr. Calves,
25 but to Mr. Karremans. Are you?
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's correct. It's possible that
2 I misspoke. I meant Karremans. Thank you.
3 THE WITNESS: As far as I remember, there were two meetings,
4 one -- one which is the one that you have shown, and there was one -- a
5 second one a bit later, when Colonel Karremans managed to find
6 Nesib Mandzic, and he returned to Hotel Fontana for a meeting with
7 General Mladic and his aides together with Nesib Mandzic. This is where
8 he explained him that, We had to surrender, adding a choice, You have the
9 choice to survive or disappear. So that, I think, was the second
11 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Q. Tell me, please, was this the first meeting we saw in the
13 video-clip showing General Mladic and General Karremans? Thank you.
14 A. Yes, I think it was the first one.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 Could we now just see an excerpt from the video-clip that we
17 prepared. The entire video-clip is two hours and twenty-two minutes'
18 long, but we will just show the two hours -- just the twenty-five seconds
19 from two hours twenty-nine minutes forty-nine seconds, the so-called
20 Srebrenica video-clip. Thank you.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. We have some technical
24 Could we please see the film -- a video-clip from
25 "Resolution 819."
1 [Video-clip played]
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. Ruez, you've seen this excerpt from this video-clip, and
5 earlier you saw the video-clip from Fontana Hotel that we couldn't show
6 for technical problems. Now, my question is this: The way
7 General Mladic is depicted in this video-clip, is that something that is
8 normally how he's depicted in the Western media?
9 A. I'm not --
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir --
11 THE WITNESS: I'm not a media critic. Please ask me questions
12 related to the investigation, not to this movie. I repeat, my
13 participation in this has been extremely limited, since I accepted to
14 read back the scenario just in order to extract from it things that could
15 be completely irrelevant, and I decided not to retrieve anything because
16 I didn't want to take any part of any kind of responsibility with this
17 scenario. This is it, so I have no -- no control and no vision about
18 this film. I'm not part of it, though, indeed, the main character is
19 supposed to be me.
20 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ruez. Is the scene that we saw just a moment ago,
22 where General Mladic was on the tank, was that a fictitious scene or was
23 it actually realistic or real?
24 A. The thing that we at the OTP take responsibility for is the
25 two-hour and something video that we, indeed, name "The Srebrenica
1 Video," and in which, indeed, you can see the behaviour of
2 General Mladic. So to match his behaviour with this fiction, anyone can
3 do it. You don't need my assessment on that.
4 Q. I only ask whether this was an actual situation that existed,
5 that happened in Srebrenica, or not. Just yes or no. Thank you.
6 A. A fiction is never a reflection of a reality. The reality of the
7 statements made by General Mladic and who exist on video have been
8 presented by the Prosecution, and you have seen these videos.
9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ruez. You didn't want to answer my question.
10 May we now have two video footages played from the Fontana Hotel.
11 These are authentic videos.
12 But while that is being prepared, I would like to ask you
13 something about the position of the OTP and Prosecution in all the
14 Srebrenica -- in the Srebrenica affair, and it is page 450.
15 You will see that the window was opened so that everybody inside
16 could hear the screams of a pig being slaughtered.
17 Can we show that, please.
18 Mr. Ruez, let me ask you this: The fact that the pig was being
19 slaughtered during the meeting with Karremans, did you attach any
20 symbolic importance to that? That's my question to you. Thank you.
21 A. In any case, it had a very symbolic importance for the person who
22 was present there, who is Nesib Mandzic. He's the one who reported the
23 importance he attached to this, in itself, insignificant event, but in
24 these circumstances had, for him, a big significance.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we be shown 1D62 now, please.
2 It's a document from the Drina Corps Command, entitled "Permission for
3 the Slaughter of Animals," and I'd like to quote from that. But may we
4 have the document up on our screens first, please.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would request that the general play the video,
7 as he said he would, because that is what gives the context to the
8 question and these other documents. I don't know why he's not, but he
9 said he was, and that was the context to the question. I think he should
10 follow through with it so the Court understands what this is about.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. We'll play the footage
12 when we hear the witness's answer. Thank you.
13 1D62 is the next document I'd like displayed, please. It's from
14 the Drina
15 Livestock." And in point 2, it says, and I quote:
16 "Permission is granted for the slaughter and delivery for the
17 needs of the UN soldiers billeted in the hotel in Bratunac of the
18 following: A hog up to 80 kilograms. The hog shall be delivered to the
19 hotel in Bratunac on orders from the Command of the Drina Corps."
20 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Now, Mr. Ruez, this is a document dated the 10th of July, when
22 the Fontana Hotel meeting was taking place. Was it on the 11th of July,
23 in the afternoon?
24 A. 11, not the 10. I mean, the document might indicate the 10, but
25 the meeting was the 11.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Ruez.
2 Now may we show part of the footage where the slaughter of the
3 hog is heard, and then what General Mladic says, and then what
4 General Mladic says at the third Fontana Hotel meeting. Thank you. May
5 that be played, please, from the first minute to one minute forty-five
6 seconds. Can we play that excerpt, please?
7 [Video-clip played]
8 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Mr. Ruez, what we've just seen, the hand-shaking and the joint
10 meeting, can that be considered as instilling fear and exerting pressure
11 on UNPROFOR in any way?
12 A. This is the third meeting, the one at 12, in the morning, where
13 the three representatives of the, in bracket, Muslim population are at
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, that was not the portion of the
16 video you indicated to show when we hear the -- we hear the noise of the
17 slaughtered pig.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right. We'll try
19 again. The technical booth will try and find it and play it for us.
20 That was the wrong excerpt. Thank you.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 Q. Mr. Ruez, you've just seen this excerpt, part of the footage,
1 where the slaughter of the pig is shown for propaganda purposes, and you
2 saw the participants in the meeting between Mladic and the rest.
3 Now, tell me, in reality, was this pressure exerted or was it
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please pause a moment.
15 I was just told that the person is a protected witness. If that
16 is correct, it should be redacted, the name. Perhaps you can help us,
17 Mr. McCloskey.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we go into private session briefly,
19 Mr. President?
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
21 [Private session]
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, please carry on. You may continue.
17 We have still five minutes left until the second break.
18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
19 Q. I'm now going to quote a statement made by Mr. Mirsad Tokaca,
20 presented at the conference. It's a document that we referred to
21 yesterday about Srebrenica, and what was found, and what the director of
22 the centre came up with. He told journalists the following:
23 "During our investigation and project --"
24 May we have 1D114 called up, please. I've just been advised that
25 we need it on our screens so that you can all follow. We'll wait for a
1 moment until it does come up on our screens. 1D114, please.
2 Do you see this document? The title is "Tokaca," and he says:
3 "We found 500 people from Srebrenica who are alive and who are
4 listed as missing."
5 And now I'm going to quote from that statement of his. It says:
6 "During our investigation and project, we found about 500 living
7 people from Srebrenica. We also have information that a little more than
8 7.000 people were killed in the area, but they were not all from
9 Srebrenica. There are people from various other towns; Vlasenica,
10 Zvornik, Bratunac, Visegrad, and so on. Seventy persons were buried in
11 the Memorial Centre, Potocari, which did not lose their lives in
12 Srebrenica, said Tokaca to journalists in Banja Luka."
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: For the record, you quoted from the last
14 paragraph of that page; is that correct?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct,
16 Mr. President. Thank you.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What is your question for the witness?
18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
19 Q. My question is this: During the investigation, did you receive
20 information about the fact that not all those people listed as missing
21 were in Srebrenica in July 1995? Thank you.
22 A. What I think Mr. Tokaca means when he says all the people were
23 not from Srebrenica is, indeed, the fact that when this enclave
24 spontaneously created itself in 1992, very little of the people who were
25 there were from Srebrenica. Indeed, those who scrambled in that place
1 were those who were the victims of the ethnic cleansing of -- at the
2 north of Zvornik and, at the west, Vlasenica. So these people were
3 coming from the entire big area, and this is also the reason why, when
4 they had to flee, the reference point was this power line, because most
5 of these people didn't know at all this area.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Ruez.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Nyambe has a question.
8 JUDGE NYAMBE: The question that was asked was:
9 "During the investigation, did you receive information about the
10 fact that not all those people listed as missing were in Srebrenica in
12 THE WITNESS: No, since on the ICRC list all those who -- there
13 is a column that says from where these people are missing from, so the
14 entire number, according to ICRC, was missing from Srebrenica.
15 JUDGE NYAMBE: So your simple answer is you did not receive that
16 information during your investigations?
17 THE WITNESS: No.
18 JUDGE NYAMBE: Okay.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to thank Judge Nyambe for
20 asking that question. I was about to do that, and the witness has now
21 clarified the position.
22 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Now, did you check the list of the International Red Cross on
24 missing persons and the list of those who were buried at Potocari? Thank
1 A. There is one specific expert on this question who was tasked to
2 look into that matter in preparation of the trial of General Krstic. I
3 believe his full report is accessible from the record of that trial.
4 Q. Thank you. Did you or did you not compare the list of the
5 ICRC -- the missing persons list of the ICRC with those who were buried
6 in Potocari? Thank you.
7 A. Not specifically with those buried in Potocari. There are very,
8 very few people who were buried in Potocari. All the main crime scenes,
9 as I showed in my direct, they were not in Potocari. Again, you
10 should -- I can only refer you to the report of this demographer who was
11 the expert for these questions during the trial of General Krstic.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir and all others in the courtroom, we
13 must have the second break now.
14 You should prepare the remainder of your cross-examination very
15 carefully for only half an hour. Thank you.
16 We adjourn and resume at 6.00.
17 --- Recess taken at 5.33 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 6.02 p.m.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, carry on.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
21 I'd like to tender 1D111 and 1D14 [as interpreted], the one we've
22 just shown, and 1D62. 1D111, 1D114, and 1D62. Thank you.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think the parts he played -- well, I have no
25 objection to the Hotel Fontana, though we have the whole thing in
1 already. If it's helpful for the record to have that blip, that's no
3 The Tokaca newspaper article, I would not object to, so long as
4 I can provide you with the retraction by that organisation that say they
5 were taken out of context by the Serb Crna News Agency, which I'm sure
6 the general is fully aware of. And we have a 65 ter number for that now,
7 6237. Though given Mr. Ruez's answer to the general's question, there's
8 no point in me showing the retraction to Mr. Ruez, given that Mr. Ruez
9 didn't know about the first article. But there's just a short retraction
10 of it to put it in context. Though, of course, you will be hearing, I'm
11 sorry, from experts on the issue of the missing, and the lists, and all
12 this material will be thrown out. But I just -- a one-sided article
13 sitting there like that, out of context, that the witness didn't know
14 anything about, I didn't want -- I only wanted if you could see the other
15 half of it. Thank you.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you, and the Chamber will consider that.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, we have a problem because you were
19 not tendering these documents at the proper time when you showed this
20 document. Now it's a little bit later. You should be aware of the
21 proper proceedings.
22 We will receive the portion of the video from the Hotel Fontana
23 meeting we have seen today, because that was already shown at length at
24 the beginning of the trial, but not tendered yet by the Prosecution. We
25 will receive today only this portion. We start with that. That is,
1 I think -- which number, if the Court Officer will help us?
2 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think that is the number 1D111. If that is
4 correct, that will be received.
5 Mr. McCloskey.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: And 1D62, the Drina Corps document about the --
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just we would like to have this number, exhibit
8 number, on the record. One moment.
9 THE REGISTRAR: 1D111 will be Exhibit D36, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
11 Mr. McCloskey.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. And then the other document related to the
13 slaughter and delivery of the hog, 1D62, we have no objection to.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm not sure if we saw the English translation of
15 that document.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, we probably didn't, so I -- we should, of
17 course, follow the procedure then.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be marked.
19 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I got the information that there is an English
21 translation. Therefore, we will receive it.
22 THE REGISTRAR: 1D62 will be Exhibit D38, Your Honour -- D37,
23 Your Honour.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
25 And the third one is the excerpt from the internet, from a web
1 site, with a certain Mr. Tokaca. That will be marked for identification,
2 since there is no English translation.
3 THE REGISTRAR: That would be D38, marked for identification,
4 Your Honour.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
7 We were discussing the document before the break, and there was
8 just one sentence that I didn't manage to quote, which is vital for this
9 Trial Chamber. It's important that you hear the sentence when you come
10 to decide on the document.
11 Tokaca says, and I quote, at the end:
12 "The greatest problem was in --"
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, we just marked this document for
14 identification. There will be a translation, and that is part of the
15 evidence. It is -- we have everything what we need.
16 Please bear in mind you have 20 minutes left. Please carry on.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 I just wanted to read out one sentence so that I can ask my
19 question. But you're not going to allowed me to do that. Never mind.
20 Thank you.
21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Ruez, was there a problem with the monopoly of information,
23 as it's called, when it comes to information that you were able to glean
24 about Srebrenica? And Mr. Tokaca uses the term here "monopoly of
25 information." Thank you.
1 A. I know nothing about the investigation Mr. Tokaca conducted. I
2 don't know what means he had to conduct it. I don't know the conclusions
3 that he drafted. Again, these things were done totally independently by
4 him. If he refers to a monopoly of information that we might have had at
5 that time, I don't know. I don't believe so. Yes, we had more means,
6 for sure, both technically and ability to move in Republika Srpska,
7 because we had the armed forces to protect us. But I believe this is
8 maybe what he means by "monopoly of information."
9 Q. Thank you. As I don't have more time, I'd like to look at 1D77
10 next, please.
11 While we're waiting for the document to be called up, 1D77, let
12 me explain what it's about to the witness.
13 It's an interview which a French intelligence officer, Bunel,
14 gave to Zoran Petrovic in 2004, and it was published in a weekly called
15 "Evropa." It was in the disclosure package and disclosed by the
17 Here we have it on our screens. It says:
18 "But as far as Srebrenica is concerned, I remember, and I said
19 this and wrote it, that in the spring of 1996, we saw Muslim men of good
20 health coming out of the woods in order to report to the American
21 division in Tuzla
22 they had left Srebrenica after the fall of the town. Therefore, they
23 were not massacred, but the Americans gathered them together and took
24 them out of the region in an unknown direction. Some of them went on to
25 the United States. We were not able to interview them in order to learn
1 what had actually happened."
2 Now, tell me this: Did you have this piece of information at the
3 time when you were the principal investigator? Yes or no, please,
4 because I haven't got much time.
5 A. No. And there were no American forces in Tuzla at that time, so
6 I'm astonished about such a statement.
7 Q. Thank you. The American forces were in the base all the time in
8 the environs of Tuzla
9 A. No, negative. There was a Swedish base, and the air base become
10 Eagle Base at the end of 1995 and mainly during the year 1996.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. We'll leave it up to
12 the Trial Chamber to check and see who is right and who is wrong, and
13 I'll go on to my next question since my time is expiring.
14 May we have 1D114 called up again, please, the document we were
15 looking at earlier on.
16 No, that's a mistake. Sorry, we've already seen that. We don't
17 need it again. I do apologise.
18 My next question is this, Mr. Ruez -- 65 ter 142 is the next
19 document I would like us to look at and to be called up on our screens,
20 please, on e-court. While we're waiting for that, I'll tell you what
21 it's about.
22 Mr. Ruez, in this document, we see that it is the Prosecutor
23 versus Rasim Delic, and there the Prosecution advocated and proposed to
24 the Trial Chamber the following, and I'm going to read an excerpt from
25 the judgement, a quotation from the judgement. I gave the wrong number,
1 I've just been told. It's 1D101. 1D101, please.
2 May we have page 2 displayed, please.
3 I'll read out what it says:
4 "The Prosecution submits that the Trial Chamber should --"
5 Well, paragraph 32 or the footnote of paragraph 32, it is part of
6 the judgement and suggestions made by the Prosecution as follows:
7 "The Trial Chamber should exercise extreme caution when
8 considering the testimony of witnesses who are former members of the
9 BH Army. It contends that their versions of the events might represent a
10 form of historical revisionism, as these witnesses would have a motive to
11 deny anything that might call into question the sincerity of the goal of
12 maintaining a secular multi-ethnic Bosnia."
13 End of quotation from the Prosecution's final trial brief.
14 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Now, Mr. Ruez, when you interviewed people -- or, rather, when
16 you gave interviews and assessed testimony, did you exercise extreme
17 caution with respect to the Muslims' goal of presenting themselves as
18 being victims; yes or no?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. Mr. Ruez -- well, first of all, I'd like to tender
21 document 1D142 into evidence, please, a 65 ter document.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You want to tender the whole document or just
23 part of the judgement?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just the portion that I quoted.
25 Thank you.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: He made reference to the Prosecution trial brief
3 and now the judgement. I'm not sure what he's asking for, but neither
4 are appropriate to be part of this trial record. I think it's a fair use
5 of a statement or a judgement to question the witness on, but I don't
6 think it's helpful to the Court to have someone else's judgement.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Do you have any comments to the objection of
8 Mr. McCloskey?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
10 The witness's answer was, Yes, to my question, and that's why I
11 wanted this to be admitted into evidence, because the witness said, Yes,
12 with no further comment. Thank you. I didn't want to expose him to any
13 other situation. All I asked was for a yes-or-no answer.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, this judgement is on the record and
15 on the JDB and everywhere available for everybody. You have quoted a
16 portion of this judgement, and the witness stated, Yes. That's all. Is
17 it really necessary to receive this part?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I won't insist because I have no
19 more time. I don't want to waste my time. You can decide in due course,
20 and I will accept any ruling and decision you make. Thank you.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received. That means paragraph 32 and
22 the front page of this judgement.
23 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
24 THE REGISTRAR: Document 65 ter 1D101 will be Exhibit D39,
25 Your Honour.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In fact, the first page and paragraph 32.
2 Carry on, please, Mr. Tolimir.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Now, Mr. Ruez -- may we have 1D59 called up, please, page 6 of
6 that document. Thank you. And I'll tell you what it's about while we're
7 waiting for it to appear.
8 It's your statement given to "The Monitor," and on page 6 in
9 Serbian, in paragraph 2, it says the following -- it's a statement that
10 you gave to the parliamentary -- at the parliamentary hearing.
11 Paragraph 2 of page 6, just one sentence, and please give me a yes-or-no
13 "I have to stress one more important point. I heard that all
14 that -- that members of the paramilitaries were involved in all that.
15 However, Arkan did not take part in that operation. All the executions
16 were carried out by the regular units of the Drina Corps or special units
17 attached to the Main Staff of the army."
18 Thank you.
19 Have I correctly quoted your words before the parliamentary
20 hearing in France
21 A. Yes, you did.
22 Q. Thank you. Now, would you -- would you have the -- would you
23 dare to say this publicly so that we can see that nobody from Serbia
24 part in the executions in Srebrenica and, in that way, to put a stop to
25 the Satanisation of the Serbs? Do you dare -- can you do that without
1 permission from your Parliament and this Tribunal? Can you repeat what
2 you stated to the Parliamentary Commission? I think that that would be
3 important for reconciliation. Thank you.
4 A. I gave that statement, if I recall well, in 2001. Unfortunately,
5 since then, as you know, came out the video of this paramilitary group
6 named the Skorpions, who can be seen in lifetime executing six youngsters
7 originated from Srebrenica. So, unfortunately, I cannot please you by
8 saying that no one from the other side of the river participated.
9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ruez. Do you know that this group, Skorpions,
10 does not belong to Serbia
11 and, in particular, that portion of it which belonged to Vukovar as a
13 A. No, I don't. But, in addition, I'm very pleased that, indeed,
14 these people were put on trial in Serbia and severely condemned by Serb
16 Q. Thank you. But at the time, they weren't citizens of Serbia
17 They were citizens of Republika Srpska Krajina. Now, for this Tribunal
18 and this Trial Chamber, can you confirm that during your investigations
19 you saw that neither Arkan nor any paramilitaries from Serbia had been
20 involved? Thank you.
21 A. Yes, this is correct.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Ruez.
23 I would like to ask this Trial Chamber to admit this document,
24 1D -- ah, I've been told that it's already an exhibit, already in
25 evidence, so thank you, that 1D59 is already in evidence. Thank you.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I am told that it is not an exhibit
2 yet. If you have different information --
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If it isn't, then I would like to
4 tender it because it's important. The witness has stated what he said on
5 the basis of the results of his investigations.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D40, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, we do not object to that exhibit.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You have a few minutes left. Please carry on.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.
12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Mr. Ruez, you -- in your statements here, and I don't have enough
14 time to go into them all and to quote them all in the various documents,
15 but, anyway, on several occasions you mentioned General Tolimir, whereas
16 we haven't been able to see the footage of that because of the technical
17 problems. Can you tell this Trial Chamber whether you -- in the
18 documents, while you were working in Srebrenica, did you find
19 General Tolimir, and in talking -- in talking to the witnesses that you
20 interviewed, was General Tolimir mentioned?
21 A. That will be more a question for the military analyst of the
22 situation, but you are right. With those who I interviewed, both on the
23 victim side and on the Bosnian Serb Army side, your name didn't pop up
24 during these interviews.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Ruez.
1 Mr. President, I would like to thank you. I have adhered to my
2 time-limit. My time is up, I see, and I thank you. Allow me to thank
3 Mr. Ruez, too, for his very proper conduct, and I hope he won't be angry
4 with me for showing part of the film which denies that I was involved
5 and -- it refutes that I was involved, and the screenwriter shows this.
6 I would like to thank the Trial Chamber. I would like to thank
7 the interpreters and apologise for the problems I've caused them.
8 I wish you all a very happy weekend, and God bless you all.
9 Thank you.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, thank you for your nice comments for
11 the witness. On the other hand, we are not at the beginning of the
12 weekend, regrettably.
13 Mr. McCloskey, do you have re-examination?
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.
15 Re-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
16 Q. Mr. Ruez, you were questioned at length about the investigation
17 and the evidence that you recalled related to the number of people and
18 people at the soccer pitch in Nova Kasaba. I'm referring, in particular,
19 to 1575, lines 3 through 10, at some point where you spoke of information
20 that you had reviewed that may not be in the record, that may not be part
21 of the witnesses on that subject.
22 You also spoke briefly about reviewing war crimes commission
23 statements and MUP statements early on in the investigation, so I'm going
24 to take you way back and see if you can recall some of this, and I'll
25 start with what we've marked as number 6234. That's a 65 ter number, and
1 it should come up on your screen.
2 And this is, as you'll see, a summary of a war crimes commission
3 statement, and I can tell you I've learned that it was a summary that was
4 made on the 11th of November, 1996, by your team. This is -- the front
5 page that we're seeing is the Bosnian version, which we can see up in the
6 English it actually says "State Commission for Gathering Facts," and --
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, I'm not sure if the accused dealt
8 with this document during cross-examination.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, he didn't. He repeatedly pressed the witness
10 on information he had about information based on people at the soccer
11 field, and that's when Mr. Ruez said, I reviewed other documents that may
12 not be part of the record. And what I'm attempting to do is see if
13 Mr. Ruez recalls reviewing other documents so that you understand that
14 that was -- whether or not that happened.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can you show us on the screen so then we can
16 check it.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. Unfortunately, the document I wanted to
18 show him has -- is not immediately available. So if I could put it on
19 the ELMO, because it's only in English.
20 You know, Mr. President, let's just go on. I will skip that.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. But if
22 we're going to read this, could I also have the Serbian version before
23 me, because I don't know what this is about.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, Mr. McCloskey just indicated that he
25 will skip that document and not dwell on that. It should be removed from
1 the screen.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right.
3 Q. On the same topic, Mr. Ruez, do you recall reviewing some of the
4 DutchBat statements that were made during your time regarding what some
5 DutchBat officers saw as they went up and down that road on those dates?
6 A. Yes, I remember reviewing all the statements that were taken by
7 others from DutchBat members.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Let's go to 65 ter 6231, and there is
9 an original Dutch version of that. And we want the English version up on
10 the screen at the moment. All right. And if we could blow that up a
11 little bit, we'll note that the date of the interview was
12 24 October 1995
13 Q. Were you the team leader at that time?
14 A. Yes, I was.
15 Q. And the interview was --
16 A. Sorry. What is the date?
17 Q. 24 October 1995
18 A. Officially, I was not the team leader, because there was no team
19 dedicated to that until the end of 1996. But --
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm very sorry. I have to interrupt you. I'm
21 not sure if this is a proper and acceptable document during
22 re-examination. I see there was an interview, Irma Oosterman. We
23 haven't seen this before, and the witness didn't give evidence about this
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, he was -- the foundation -- the
1 reason I'm bringing this forward is that Mr. Ruez was challenged
2 repeatedly about his investigation, and the thoroughness of
3 investigation, and what he learned throughout the investigation on this
4 particular topic of the number of people that are at the field at
5 Nova Kasaba. And so when Mr. Tolimir brings up that issue and challenges
6 Mr. Ruez on his investigation and the evidence that he collected, I think
7 it's appropriate for me to go back and see if Mr. Ruez can recollect
8 whether this is part of the evidence that he relies on when he testifies
9 to you that there are so many people on the football field.
10 And I can also tell you Mr. Egbers is on the witness list, and so
11 this will be someone that will be fully able to be cross-examined, I do
12 believe. So it's not something I'm trying to get in without, of course,
13 cross-examination. But when the challenge is on the investigation and
14 his information that he has, that door is opened, and I should be allowed
15 to see if Mr. Ruez remembers this and whether he may have relied upon it,
16 when you're judging his credibility and the attack that was a strong
17 attack on his credibility related to the witnesses that put information
18 about Nova Kasaba.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: He told us he was not the team leader at that
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: He told us he was not the formal team leader
22 because that did not happen, formally, until later. But if we ask him
23 what he was doing, which I was going to follow up on, you know, you will
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Taking into account your explanation, why you are
2 putting this document to the witness, the Chamber is satisfied with your
3 course of re-examination. If there is any reason, then we should leave
4 the possibility for the accused to raise another question to that topic.
5 Please carry on.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Q. Well, can you explain to us -- you said you weren't formally the
8 team leader in October 24th. What were you then?
9 A. In fact, at that time I was a member of the investigation team
10 dealing with the investigation on the siege of Sarajevo. But after I
11 started working on this investigation and during the summer 1995, I was
12 later, in fact, the only person who was full-time working on this topic.
13 The other colleagues could provide me some assistance from time to time
14 mainly when going on mission, but as soon as the mission was over they
15 were returning to their other activities. So, in fact, I was the only
16 person full-time in charge of the case, so I was de facto the team leader
17 for this -- the investigation.
18 Q. So would you have been team leader when you reviewed this
20 A. In fact, I took on myself to collect absolutely all the
21 statements that we had collected during the month -- end of July and
22 August, plus later also those from the interview process of the members
23 of DutchBat, and this in order to make what I named a chronology of
24 events based on all of these witness statements, which is, in fact, a
25 criminal analysis and reconstruction of the events day by day based on
1 all these various witness testimonies, including compilation of
2 information of people we did not necessarily interview because they had
3 too little to say; many of them, for example, being in this group of
4 persons who had information about the deportation routes. So spots where
5 they saw dead bodies alongside of the road, a group of prisoners in
6 different locations, these ones initially were not the main focus, except
7 to understand, more or less, the ambiance of what happened in that area
8 that day. The focus was more on people who had crimes to report, and
9 mainly survivors of what was told at that time being mass executions, and
10 who we could not believe until we had found evidence on the ground that
11 could, indeed, confirm that we were not under the influence of any kind
12 of propaganda.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. And can we go to 6231A, which is the
14 Dutch version, and the very last page of the Dutch version, which is
15 page 12.
16 And for brevity, I will state that in page 6 of the English
17 version of this, page 7 of the B/C/S version, Mr. Egbers says that there
18 were Bosnian prisoners of war at the soccer field at Nova Kasaba.
19 And can we blow this up a bit.
20 And I don't know if you can read it, but we see a rectangle, and
21 it says above the rectangle:
22 "Muslim people on their knees; civilians in uniform."
23 And then below that it says:
24 "Almost the whole field covered with people."
25 There's no time mentioned, for the record.
1 Q. Is this a document you would have relied upon in your
2 investigation in determining the number of people on the soccer field
3 and, for example, the credibility of the witness who has testified here
4 on that very point?
5 A. Yes, for sure, in terms of credibility that there were prisoners
6 on the soccer field, but again not to make any assessment on the numbers.
7 It's very difficult to assess numbers in such situations, first, because,
8 again, the situation was moving in time, and also because no one had a
9 computer in his head to make a very precise assessment on how many people
10 constitute a gathering. It's a very difficult exercise. But the main
11 point was not to know precisely how many people went through that soccer
12 field, but then what was their fate.
13 Q. All right. And do you have any reason -- did the investigation
14 have any reason to doubt Mr. Egbers' conclusion in this document that
15 almost the whole field was covered with people?
16 A. No, I have no reason to put in doubt this statement of
17 Mr. Egbers.
18 Q. All right. And did you review, on the same subject, intercepted
19 conversations that the Bosnian Muslim Army intercepted from the Serb
20 forces, and did you review them with this same issue in mind?
21 A. Yes, indeed. That reminds me of something. And we also had an
22 information, I think, through that type of source that initially there
23 was the will to bring down from Bijeljina some investigative judge who
24 was supposed to assist in the scanning of these people in order to maybe
25 identify some war criminals among them. I think that was the source, it
1 was from intercepts, but I'm not sure.
2 Q. Let me show you --
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, Mr. Tolimir.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could I please have
5 a reference to the intercepts that Mr. McCloskey is now referring,
6 because we haven't mentioned any intercepts here. We were actually
7 trying to refute some other aspects.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: I was first laying the proper and appropriate
10 foundation, that he would have reviewed intercepts on this same topic
11 that was an extreme challenge by General Tolimir, the number of people --
12 or the people on the football field. There's also a topic that I'm going
13 to, and that is the -- if you recall, the very symmetrical photograph --
14 aerial image of the symmetrical squares that were the subject of
15 questions -- natural questions -- inappropriate questions by the Judges.
16 And I have perhaps some information that Mr. Ruez may have relied upon
17 and that might refresh his recollection on this very issue as well.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please carry on.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to 65 ter 2948. A is the English,
20 and B is the B/C/S. And because of time, I will just briefly summarise
21 as we go, but then I will -- this is an intercept from 13 July 1995, from
22 1009 hours. According to the intercept operator, it's between a person
23 named Zoka, Zoka P. and Beara. And it starts out with Beara speaking. I
24 won't read it all, but we see some of the things Mr. Beara is saying. As
25 we see:
1 "Do you hear me? Do you know that 400 balijas have shown up in
2 Konjevic Polje?"
3 L says: "I know."
4 It goes on for a while.
5 Beara eventually says:
6 "Shove them all on the playground. Who gives a fuck about them?"
7 Q. Now, this term "playground" in English, how does that -- what
8 does that, in your experience, get referred to sometimes in the Bosnian,
9 if you know?
10 A. No. But now, indeed, I remember this piece of intercept, and the
11 immediate conclusion we -- I mean, I and others who know the area drafted
12 is that the only place could be referring to, when he was speaking about
13 a playground, was this soccer field of Nova Kasaba that is just a few K
14 south of Konjevic Polje. There is no other playground in the area except
15 this soccer field.
16 Q. And then Beara goes down and says:
17 "Yeah, well, line them up in four to five rows."
18 Do you remember that particular reference now in your
20 A. The instance shot of the aerial imagery that was shown shows,
21 indeed, people lining in a few rows, but again I would have to say
22 something I already said. That photograph was an instant shot. Sometime
23 later, it could have been 10 or 15 rows. God knows.
24 Q. All right. Now, let's go to another intercept, 65 ter --
25 actually, I think I'll skip that one, in terms for brevity of time.
1 Let's go to another one, 65 ter 2961A. B is the B/C/S.
2 Mr. Ruez, I want to first ask you, as this comes up, to see if
3 you recall it. And it's from 13 July, at 1730 hours, and it's between X
4 and Y, as we see from the English. And it begins with X saying:
5 "Is it possible for us to send about ten buses from Bijeljina?"
6 Y says:
7 "Well, tell them right away to come. There's about 6.000 of them
9 X says: "Of military age?"
10 Y says: "Shut up, don't repeat."
11 X says: "Okay, then I'll send them."
12 Y says:
13 "Yeah, send them. I have three points; fuck it. There's one
14 where you and I were, then there's one up there where the check-point at
15 the intersection is and there's the one halfway between the check-point
16 and the loading place."
17 X says: "So, over there as well?"
18 Y says: "At each point, there are roughly 1.500 to 2.000."
19 Do you recall this intercept?
20 A. No, I don't recall this one. It is most certainly in the package
21 of the more interesting ones, but, no, I have no recollection of that
23 Q. And in your book of what you refer to as "regroupment" sites,
24 sites where large amounts of prisoners were held, how many main sites
25 were there that you talked about in your book?
1 A. Mainly -- mainly two big ones, the soccer field of Nova Kasaba
2 and the field at Sandici. But nearby Sandici, we know there was also an
3 additional location that was used to keep people until they could be
4 transported to Bratunac. But the two main locations -- also this little
5 hangar at the intersection of Konjevic Polje, but the two big ones were
6 the soccer field and Sandici Meadow.
7 Q. Thank you. Now I want to ask you about the exhibit. It's the
8 17 July photo of the Branjevo Farm, Exhibit P94. It's page 223 in your
9 book. That's the one that you will recall shows, according to the
10 United States and according to your assessment, bodies lying in the field
11 on the 17th and excavators digging a mass -- digging a mass grave not far
12 away; is that correct?
13 A. Yes, this is correct.
14 Q. All right. And you, in --
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, please pause for a moment.
16 Mr. Tolimir.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what Mr. McCloskey
18 is saying now was not in my cross-examination. This is a redirect that
19 has nothing to do with anything. These intercepts were not verified.
20 This had absolutely nothing to do with my cross-examination. Thank you.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Do you object to the intercept records you saw or
22 do you object to using this photo, this photograph?
23 Mr. McCloskey --
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, objection.
25 First of all, I object to this photo being used, and also I
1 object to the intercepts being used, because we haven't really verified
2 whether these intercepts were noted down by hand. We haven't heard
3 witnesses testifying about that. And, secondly, this more --
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. I just want to know if you object to
5 using this photo.
6 Mr. McCloskey, the Chamber is heavily concerned to use this,
7 because that was not part of the cross-examination.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: But I think you'll recall it was, Mr. President,
9 if you hear me out.
10 You'll recall a very strong attack by General Tolimir suggesting
11 that there were battle casualties in the mass graves. In fact, I think
12 Judges asked some questions on that point. If you'll recall, Mr. Ruez,
13 in response to that, said that the time-frame involved that this digging
14 and these holes were opened up and then closed would have not allowed for
15 battle casualties to be taken there. That was one of the things he said.
16 And then he said there are engineering records that show the time-frame
18 Now, when an investigator says something like that, he gets
19 challenged by that on a key issue of the case, all I'm asking him is, is
20 it reminding him of the engineering equipment we see? And then the next
21 thing I'm going to go to is the engineering record to see if he remembers
22 that and if that is what he was talking about.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In that case, it would be very helpful if you
24 could give a reference to the Court.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, but we're not there yet. We first need to
1 establish that there is excavating -- engineering equipment on 17 July.
2 And that's all I'm using this for, a document that's already in evidence.
3 That's as simple as that.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Nyambe.
5 JUDGE NYAMBE: I think, Mr. McCloskey, just to add on to what the
6 Presiding Judge has said, it would help all of us, since you are in
7 re-examination, when you are examining that particular evidence, to say,
8 for example, At page so-and-so, the witness said this, the
9 cross-examination was like this, and you're examining following, because
10 the impression given now here is that you are probably -- I'm confused,
11 as if you're opening your evidence-in-chief.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: I normally do that. With the time-frame and the
13 need to get this witness back, I thought everyone would remember the
14 challenge suggesting that there were battle casualties in the mass
15 graves, and that's the issue which I'm sure everyone remembers that I am
16 specifically rebutting here.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Therefore, it would be helpful if you just put
18 questions to the witness, and you don't need such a picture, I think.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.
20 Could we go to -- the transcript reference, Your Honour, is 1543,
21 lines 1 through 23, on this particular issue.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we could go to 65 ter 781.
24 Q. And as we get -- Mr. Ruez, were any engineering records captured
25 during the investigation, any of VRS engineering records?
1 A. Yes. They were captured when we did the search at the
2 headquarters of the Zvornik Brigade. That was in 1998.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. If we could go to page 2 in the
4 English and page 6 in the B/C/S. And we need to blow up the English to
5 the date 17 July, please.
6 Q. And as you're seeing these, do these forms look familiar to you,
7 Mr. Ruez, just generally?
8 A. They did. They no longer do.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. We need to -- sorry. We need to see the
11 THE WITNESS: I see it.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, we need to go the other direction. 17 July:
13 "Base - Standard, Branjevo." "Base - transport of 700 loader."
14 Q. That does that mean anything to you, Mr. Ruez?
15 A. M'mm-hmm.
16 Q. Does it have anything to do with the testimony that you gave in
17 response to this challenge that there may be battle casualties in this
18 Branjevo mass grave?
19 A. This confirms that the burial of the bodies of those who were
20 killed the 16, both we know was at the Branjevo Farm, but also the
21 reburial of those at the Pilica Dom to the Branjevo Farm, was, indeed,
22 conducted on 17 July, Standard being, in fact, the location of the
23 Zvornik Brigade in a former factory named Standard, and Branjevo being
24 the Branjevo Farm. And that event happened, according to these archives,
25 the 17 of July, which matches the aerial imagery that we have where the
1 trench in which people were buried is already fully opened the 17, and
2 there is an excavator seen also on this picture. And on the area where
3 we see the bodies on this picture, most of them have already been
4 removed, since we know the size of the initial execution site.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We are running out of time.
6 Mr. Tolimir, you want to raise something? Mr. Tolimir.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, this is a reference to the
8 17th. That's number 1. Second, I don't have the document in Serbian
9 before me, so I don't know what it states there.
10 Now, what we saw earlier was not on the 17th in Kasaba, so this
11 was not anywhere in the transcript. Thank you.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Chamber is in a very unpleasant situation.
13 We were told that the witness is only available today, where there was
14 some time pressures on the accused. Now, on the Prosecution, you have
15 indicated you would need half an hour. You have had half an hour, and
16 the Chamber would like to put some questions to this witness as well.
17 There were some things we want to clarify.
18 What are your proposals? I think it was not a very efficient
19 hearing this afternoon, and even the days before. We were dealing with a
20 movie for a very long time, and this is a heavy concern of the
21 Trial Chamber. I think we have to consider and to think about the
22 conduct of a trial of the parties.
23 How shall we proceed, Mr. McCloskey?
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I have a minute and a half, no
25 more documents, just one more point in response to this issue, to see if
1 Mr. Ruez can help us with it.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Okay. Then use these one and a half minutes.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: But then I will, of course, sit down. And in
4 these situations, as you know, the interpreters have -- you know, better
5 than I, they have worked hard, and sometimes they agree to stay late.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Overlapping speakers] And we all have to
8 Please put your last question.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY:
10 Q. Mr. Ruez, I think, and General Tolimir will agree, that Muslim
11 battle casualties in the area south were in this area that you've
12 referred to above the Kravica hills, sometimes referred to Bare,
13 Kamenica, Ravne Bullen [phoen], and in the Baljkovica area, up in the
14 Zvornik area, where the column pushed through, is that correct, towards
16 A. Yes, this is correct.
17 Q. Are both those areas laced with mines from both sides,
19 A. Yes, most of these places are at risk of being mined, indeed,
21 Q. Did you find one shred of evidence that the Bosnian Serb Army, in
22 the days of 13, 14, 15, 16 July, when they're having to deal with this
23 column, would have gone into this land-mine area that's full of Muslims
24 and picked up, you know, dead Muslims and hauled them sometimes 20
25 kilometres away and put them in someplace like Branjevo Farm?
1 A. No evidence at all about this.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. I have no further
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: There are very few minutes left.
5 Judge Nyambe.
6 Questioned by the Court:
7 JUDGE NYAMBE: Yes, I just have a few questions for the witness.
8 The first one is: At the time of your interview with "The
9 Monitor," were you still working for the OTP?
10 A. We should check the date, but I think I had just left the OTP. I
11 left the OTP April 7, 2001
12 this article was published. I think I had just left the Tribunal, but I
13 was still in the Netherlands
14 JUDGE NYAMBE: Can you recall, was it one year later, two years
15 later, three years later.
16 A. No, no, no, it was -- I would think it was done in April 2001.
17 JUDGE NYAMBE: And when you did the interview with the
18 Parliamentary Committee?
19 A. I was still at the OTP at that time, yes.
20 JUDGE NYAMBE: And the third question is: When you were in the
21 investigation team for this case with Mr. McCloskey, what was your
22 position ?
23 A. I was then an investigation team leader.
24 JUDGE NYAMBE: What level?
25 A. P4.
1 JUDGE NYAMBE: I think that's all. Thank you.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
3 May I clarify one thing. During the hearing of the 29th of
4 March, that is, page 953, line 15, to page -- to the next page, line 3,
5 you were referring to bodies in a mass grave, and I would like to quote.
6 Your answer was:
7 "Initially, the assumption was that we thought we had to count 50
8 people by bus, and I think that, indeed, at the end of the exhumation it
9 was more or less precisely that number that was found."
10 Several lines down, you said:
11 "Most --" no, I don't say you said. It is recorded:
12 "Most probably because the number involved was not sufficient to
13 spark a reburial process, 50 victims, unfortunately, in this case is not
14 a large number."
15 First you said "50 people," and then "150 victims." Could you
16 clarify this?
17 A. Yes, because the witness who led us to work on this situation and
18 ultimately find the location of the killing and burial place said that
19 three buses entered the valley, followed by -- escorted and followed by
20 an APC
21 potential victims. And, indeed, this is the report of Bill Hagland that
22 the general was shown, and it was, indeed, I think, precisely 150.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. That clarifies the situation.
24 And on the 30th of March this year, at transcript page 1050, line
25 23, you spoke about the Luke school, and you were asked:
1 "We see the yellow mark over the village of -- well, I can make
2 out 'Branjevo.'"
3 And your answer was: "Pilica, Luke School
4 And then some lines down you spoke about the school of the
5 location named Kula, close to Pilica.
6 Can you clarify this?
7 A. Yes, I might have said something wrong at one point, because Luke
8 is, in fact, the school that was the concentration spot for the prisoners
9 who -- I mean, for those who managed to get on board of buses leaving
10 Potocari, but on the final destination, before arriving at the
11 confrontation line at Kladanj, they were taken out of these buses and put
12 in this small elementary school, which is the Luke School
13 At Orahovac, now I don't remember, because initially we call it
14 the -- I've forgotten the name. We changed the names of these places at
15 one point to make them more accurate. I don't remember the name of the
16 one connected with Orahovac.
17 Kula is the one that is close to Branjevo Farm.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think there are two different locations.
19 A. Kula and Luke are two very different ones --
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
21 A. Luke is completely at the south-west and Kula is completely at
22 the north.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: One last question by Judge Nyambe.
24 JUDGE NYAMBE: It, indeed, is going to be one last question.
25 When I asked you earlier on what your position was when you were
1 investigating, you said you were a P4?
2 A. Yes, correct.
3 JUDGE NYAMBE: Would you know what position Mr. McCloskey was at
4 the time, as senior legal adviser.
5 A. I think he was P4 also.
6 JUDGE NYAMBE: Can you be precise?
7 A. I think he was P4 staff also.
8 JUDGE NYAMBE: You're sure?
9 A. I'm not 100 per cent sure, no.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just as an officer of the Court, I think that's
11 something I can certainly tell the Court. I was a P4.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
13 At page 41 of today's transcript, line 15, there's a reference to
14 page 9, line 21 to 22 of the transcript. That was the transcript of
15 yesterday, just to clarify the situation.
16 We are more than running out of time, and I have to apologise, on
17 behalf of all present here in the courtroom, but I want to -- especially
18 for the court recorder and the interpreters, but we have to adjourn and
19 resume next week on Thursday.
20 I would like to tell especially the Defence we would appreciate
21 that you take into account the decision of the Chamber of the 24th of
22 February, the order concerning guide-lines on the presentation of
23 evidence, especially the time-limits of 24 or 48 hours before the
24 examination. And that was not appropriate, what happened today and
25 yesterday. That was the first point.
1 The second point is the kind of presentation of the documents
2 should be better prepared. We had several situations today when it was
3 really confusing for the Registry, for the interpreters, and so on. That
4 should be much better prepared. And the Defence, Mr. Tolimir, you should
5 think about relevance of some questions you have put to this witness
6 today. You should think about that, and otherwise you will get some more
7 guidance. Everybody should be aware of the time we have in this trial.
8 And with these remarks, please take them into account for the
9 preparation of the next witnesses.
10 We have to adjourn, again with apologies for all those who helped
11 us, the whole staff of the Tribunal.
12 We adjourn and resume next week, Thursday.
13 And I forgot a very important topic.
14 Mr. Ruez, thank you very much that you came to The Hague again
15 with many difficulties, I know, because of the volcanic eruption, and we
16 have had you for several days now. Thank you very much for your
17 attendance, and you may return to your normal activities. Thank you.
18 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We adjourn.
20 [The witness withdrew]
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.18 p.m.
22 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 13th day of May,
23 2010, at 9.00 a.m.