1 Wednesday, 9 June 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom.
6 Could the witness please be brought in.
7 Thank you very much, Mr. Thayer, for your efficient co-operation.
8 MR. THAYER: Well, with the downsizing, Mr. President, I need all
9 the skill-set I can get.
10 While we're waiting for the witness, I just wanted to update the
11 Trial Chamber on the witness order. We have an illness among our
12 witnesses, as you may have seen. That was Witness PW-29. So the lineup
13 will be --
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please pause a moment. There's a problem with
15 the earphone again.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon, sir. Please sit down.
18 I hope very much that your earphone -- that you are receiving now
19 a translation in the language. Thank you, Mr. Tolimir.
20 Mr. Thayer, please continue.
21 MR. THAYER: Just briefly, Mr. President.
22 The witness order will be PW-27, PW-26, PW-48, and then in place
23 of PW-29, we'll have PW-47, whose witness number is number 114. And if
24 we still have time left over, we've made arrangements to have
25 Witness PW-38, who is Witness 105, available at least for his direct
1 examination. I understand from the Defence that they may not be prepared
2 to cross him today, but at least we could get his direct in, and we may
3 be at the end of the day anyway. That's the lineup.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm a little bit confused, Mr. Thayer, about one
5 number you mentioned in line 23 of page 1. You mentioned PW-29. We
6 don't have him on the list.
7 MR. THAYER: He is the one who is ill.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I thought that would be PW-41.
9 MR. THAYER: Oh, yes, I beg your pardon, Your Honour, that's
10 PW-41. You're exactly right.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. That clarifies the
13 MR. THAYER: Yes. Yes, I apologise.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
15 Now, sir, good afternoon again, and we continue your examination.
16 Please be reminded that the affirmation to tell the truth still applies.
17 And Mr. Tolimir has some additional questions.
18 Please, Mr. Tolimir, continue.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
20 I greet everybody present in the courtroom. I wish you all
21 peace, God's peace, and I hope these proceedings will finish in keeping
22 with God's will.
23 I would like to welcome the witness. I'm sorry that he had to.
24 Stay. However, I could not ask him questions that I should have, since
25 he changed the course of his testimony in the course of the
2 Can we please see P318, page 3 in Serbian and page 3 in English.
3 This is the statement that this witness provided to the OTP of this
4 Tribunal. Thank you.
5 WITNESS: PW-027 [Resumed]
6 [The witness answered through interpreter]
7 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir: [Continued]
8 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] And while we're waiting for the
9 document, I have a question for the witness.
10 Q. Mr. Witness, the statement that you provided to the OTP, did you
11 have a chance to peruse it in the Popovic case? Thank you. And if that
12 was the case, is it true that you did not want to make the same changes
13 did you in paragraphs 6 and 7?
14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter does not hear the witness.
15 Could the witness please be asked to say something.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Witness, could you please repeat your answer, if
17 you recall the question.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that I did not change
19 anything in my statement, at least nothing in the essence of the
20 statement has been changed. The essence of the statement remains the
21 same. What I said then still stands. The first mistake -- the first
22 error that I corrected, I can't remember what page was that on, does not
23 change anything in my statement. It was just a typo that I corrected.
24 In other words, I do not agree that I have changed the statement at all.
25 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Are you saying this for my benefit or for the benefit of somebody
3 A. What do you mean, for your benefit?
4 Q. Since you answered the question and you kept on belabouring, let
5 me put things one at a time.
6 First of all, I asked for Exhibit P318, page 3 in Serbian, 2 in
7 English. And while we're waiting for the document, let me ask you: You
8 said in paragraph 6 of your statement --
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Your microphone, please.
10 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
11 Q. You say in paragraph 6:
12 "At that time, I knew that Generals Miletic, Gvero and Tolimir
13 were top VRS commanders on the General Staff, but I did not know their
15 Is that what you stated?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. My question is this: How did you know that those generals were
18 commanders, but you didn't know their functions at the same time? Thank
20 A. It was public knowledge in the media. Those generals were
21 mentioned. It was a notorious fact.
22 Q. Thank you. Do you still think the same?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, before we move on, was it important
25 for your job whose conversations you were following in order to decide
1 how important the information was? Was it important who was in what
3 A. Yes, because there were conversations that were not interesting
4 for us, for our job.
5 Q. Thank you. And now we come to the very thing for which we're
6 here. Do you see the last part of paragraph 6 -- but we have completed
7 that already, haven't we?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. But in paragraph 6, in the statement that we are looking at,
10 there's something missing. Look at the last sentence:
11 "I do not recall receiving orders to move their antennas. I did
12 not have the know-how to do that."
13 Did I read the sentence properly, and is this your statement?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you. Why did you mention antennas at all within the
16 context of your interview with the OTP in paragraph 6, because nothing up
17 to then concerned antennas?
18 A. I did not have any influence on the way the statement was worded,
19 but what I stated, I stand by. What I meant was in the wording, there
20 should be "their antennas," and that's referring to the antennas that my
21 superiors mounted before I joined the service. I didn't mean the
22 aggressor antennas, although it may be construed, from the way the
23 statement was worded, that I had the aggressor's antennas in mind.
24 Q. Thank you. Could you please answer my questions? I'm asking you
25 how come you mentioned antennas, since in paragraph 6 there was no
1 reference to antennas, but to the generals? Did anybody ask you about
2 the antennas?
3 A. We talked about all sorts of things, ranging from the time when I
4 joined the service, including our equipment and antennas, and I said that
5 I didn't have the know-how to decide where the antennas would be mounted,
6 how they would be turned, or whether they would be changed.
7 Q. Thank you. I see very well what you stated, and I read that you
9 "I don't recall having received an order to move their antennas.
10 I didn't have the know-how."
11 I'm asking you again. Why are you referring to the antennas
12 towards the end of paragraph 6 and nothing referred to the antennas
14 A. I wasn't the one who decided how the statement would be worded.
15 I don't know why the antennas are mentioned in paragraph 6 and not in
16 paragraph 7 or 8. That is not up to me. I was not the one who drafted
17 this statement.
18 Q. If you wanted to move the antennas, did you have to have your
19 superior's order for that?
20 A. Yes. When we were looking for directions, we had to have an
21 order, yes.
22 Q. Were the antennas property of the State Security Centre that you
23 worked for or were they property of the army? Was there just one person
24 who maintained the antennas and who was in charge of the antennas?
25 A. I don't know that.
1 Q. So how come you know that there should have been an order if you
2 wanted to change the antennas?
3 A. I said that I didn't receive any orders to do that on my own.
4 When my superior was there, we would be his assistants. We would assist
5 him in his job, and somebody would be in charge of the equipment. And as
6 far as the antennas are concerned, I'm telling you that I didn't have
7 enough know-how to know where to mount them, how to turn them, and when
8 to change them.
9 Q. Please answer my question. Why would anybody issue an order to
10 you to move the antennas if there was a person who was in charge of the
11 antenna system? I'm asking you why would anybody issue an order to that?
12 Did you state what it says here?
13 A. I said that I did not remember whether I had ever received such
14 an order.
15 Q. But explain to the Trial Chamber. Why did you refer to the
16 orders, antennas, and state things like that in paragraph 6?
17 A. Because my superior was there when those things were done. An
18 order would not have been indirect [as interpreted] from the base. He
19 would have been there, and it would only be logical for him to go out and
20 to do the job.
21 Q. I did not receive my answer, why you mentioned the antennas in
22 paragraph 6. Nothing you said before led to the antennas. But if you
23 don't want to answer, I don't want to insist.
24 A. Are you only interested in the fact that the antennas are
25 mentioned in paragraph 6? Is that all you are interested in, why the
1 antennas are mentioned in paragraph 6?
2 Q. Thank you. What I'm interested in is another matter. I am
3 asking you why the statement refers to the order to the antennas if
4 nothing before that led to the antennas in the order, and why is that in
5 paragraph 6. And you gave me your answer.
6 A. But I wasn't the one who wrote the statement. I don't know why
7 this reference is in paragraph 6, and I keep on insisting on that, I keep
8 on telling you that.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I think the witness answered as best
10 as he could, and you should not dwell on this any longer. I think you
11 will receive always the same answer.
12 I would like to put a question to the witness.
13 If I remember correctly, you made some corrections at the
14 beginning of your testimony yesterday. One correction was related to
15 this sentence. I noted that you changed the word "their antennas" and
16 "our antennas." Is that correct? Do I remember that correctly?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you are correct, that was one
18 of the changes to my statement.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a technical issue.
21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 Q. Did the VRS have any antennae at the northern site?
23 A. At the northern site? As far as I know, no. The VRS?
24 Q. Thank you.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I have another question. You said:
1 "I wasn't the one who wrote the statement."
2 Who did write the statement?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The statement, as such, is based on
4 what I said. But the part in the sixth paragraph, this could be part of
5 the context of the seventh or the eighth paragraph, because in
6 paragraph 6 we have generals followed by the antennae immediately, so it
7 was probably carried from another paragraph. I don't know why it was put
8 in paragraph 6, though. However, the words are mine.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Who did collect your information into this
10 statement? Who wrote it?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, on the cover page it
12 is stated who was present when I gave this statement.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Do I understand that correctly, that you gave all
14 your information you could give to the investigators, and they put this
15 information together and set up the statement which you signed? Is that
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
19 Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.
20 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Presiding Judge.
21 Q. Can you tell us whether, save for your antenna, there were any
22 other antennae at the facility?
23 A. Not in the same location, but a small distance away there were
24 army antennae, the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
25 Q. And what was the distance?
1 A. I don't know exactly, but a hundred or 150 metres.
2 Q. Was there any need for you to move their antennae, since you
3 mentioned a commander here?
4 A. Whose antennae? What do you mean when you say "their antennae"?
5 Which antennae do you have in mind?
6 Q. You heard my question. You choose your own answers. Tell me
7 whether there were any breaking and entries at the site where you were.
8 A. Not as far as I know.
9 Q. Did any UNPROFOR or NATO representatives have their antennae at
10 the northern site?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Is it something you are certain of or do you only base that on
13 your knowledge?
14 A. I'm fully certain of that. Someone would have had to have been
15 there to maintain them, had there been any. I'm positive that none of
16 those bodies had their antennae there.
17 Q. I asked you whether there were any NATO or UNPROFOR antennae at
18 the northern site. I don't care if you say yes or no, but please give me
19 a positive answer.
20 A. It's a positive no, then.
21 Q. Thank you. Please re-read paragraph 7, if necessary, if you need
22 to refresh your memory.
23 Thank you. Please look at line 6 of paragraph 7. This is the
25 "We would later transcribe the conversation onto teleprinter
1 paper, then type their handwritten transcriptions into a laptop ..."
2 In the English, we have "their handwritten transcription." Are
3 you familiar with that?
4 A. No. In the version in my own language, it is as it is. In
5 Bosnian, it doesn't say "their."
6 Q. Thank you. Did you compare the written text and the recorded
7 conversations, as you stated in para 7, lines 11 and 12?
8 A. Please repeat your question.
9 Q. I will read it out, the sentence in line 11:
10 "We tried to be 100 per cent certain that what they wrote down
11 was correct."
12 My question is this: Why did you say "what they wrote down was
13 correct"? Did you copy somebody else's conversations or did you do the
15 A. Well, yesterday we corrected this mistake. The Prosecutor
16 explained it. It's one of the mistakes we corrected. It wasn't what
17 they wrote, but what we wrote.
18 Q. Do you think it was a typographical error or did you say that?
19 A. I think it was a typographical error. I would not have said
20 "their notes," because I did that.
21 Q. Can you tell us this: In para 7, you changed all of the
22 third-plural pronouns into "we"?
23 A. Well, I stated what the corrections were to be made, but I
24 wouldn't say it was in all of the cases you mention.
25 Q. Do you know who succeeded or who took over the UNPROFOR equipment
1 that was at the northern site?
2 A. I have no information to that effect, that there had been any
3 equipment and that someone took it.
4 Q. Can you explain to the Chamber, what operations did you
5 undertake, without referring to paragraph 7? What activities did you
6 undertake when you transcribed conversations? Because paragraph 7
7 describes the procedure you used when intercepting conversations. Can
8 you explain that now?
9 A. You mean I need to start with the recording, itself, or the
10 transfer onto a piece of paper and the typing in?
11 Q. Let me ask you this: Did you personally type in anybody's
12 conversations noted down into a laptop?
13 A. I said so yesterday. I was a trained teleprinter operator and a
14 cryptographer. Hence, I was good at typing into a computer, and this is
15 why it was usually me who did that, especially when it was urgent.
16 Q. Thank you. Since you were the one typing into the laptop, what
17 computer programme did you use, since you say you were trained?
18 A. What software, what programme I used? Well, Windows.
19 Q. What was the particular programme you used to type out a text? I
20 don't mean the system.
21 A. I think it was a Co-Editor.
22 Q. Did you compare the written text and the conversations recorded,
23 as you say in paragraph 7, lines 11 and 12 in the original statement, on
24 the occasion of your first statement to the Prosecutor here in The Hague
25 A. I lost you there.
1 Q. Did you compare the written text and the conversations recorded?
2 A. I have explained this nicely, I think. We would record
3 conversations on the UHER and write them down on a piece of paper. Then
4 we would go back and listen to unclear portions, be it a single word, or
5 parts of sentences, or even a syllable. In that case, I was assisted by
6 my work-mate to decipher the word as best as possible. By doing so, we
7 could cross things out on the piece of paper, a number of times if
8 necessary, and we usually destroyed those papers afterwards. The final
9 draft was then typed into a computer.
10 Q. Thank you. Why did you mention teleprinter paper in this
12 A. To try and explain what kind of paper it was. It was not a
13 note-book. It was plain paper that could easily be destroyed afterwards.
14 Q. Since you're on the topic of destroying it, did you destroy your
15 papers at the same location where the army did that or did you do it
17 A. Separately.
18 Q. Did you share the same mess with the army members present there
19 or did you have separate restaurants?
20 A. We took our meals together.
21 Q. Did you share the same logistical support or did you only use
22 their facilities, their rooms, for lunch and dinner?
23 A. I don't know who brought the food, but we ate and prepared our
24 food together. I don't know who provided the logistics, though.
25 Q. Did the facility commander have any -- hold any sway over you in
1 discipline matters?
2 A. Well, there were certain norms in place, in terms of conduct at
3 the site, but that was the scope of his authority. He could not get
4 involved in our work.
5 Q. Did the facility commander initiate any disciplinary proceedings
6 against you or any army members, if you know?
7 A. As far as I know, there weren't any.
8 Q. Thank you. Can you tell the Chamber whether, before having
9 testified in the Popovic case, you had occasion to review your statement
10 in a language you understand? And if so, why did you not point out the
11 errors then?
12 A. I was asked that yesterday. I said I did. I read it and signed
13 it, but these were merely technical errors and I may have overlooked them
14 then. On my arrival here, however, I managed to find them, and I
15 insisted that they be changed. This was accepted.
16 Q. Did your unit exchange information it received by way of
17 intercepts with any other users?
18 A. If there was something of military interest, then we handed over
19 certain things to them, and vice versa, although there weren't many such
21 Q. Was there a third user from whom you received information?
22 A. No.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness. This concludes
24 my examination-in-chief [as interpreted]. I would like to thank you for
25 coming back the second day. I simply had to put certain questions to you
1 for the sake of testimony in general.
2 Your Honour, Mr. Presiding Judge, this concludes my examination.
3 I have no further questions of this witness.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir. I think we
5 have not reached the stage of the Defence case. Therefore, it was the
6 cross-examination and not the examination-in-chief, as it was
8 Mr. Thayer, do you have re-examination?
9 MR. THAYER: None, Mr. President. Thank you.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, you will be pleased to hear that this
11 concludes your evidence. You are now free to return to your normal
12 activities. The Chamber would like to thank you for your attendance here
13 in The Hague
14 very much again, but please wait for a moment.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: For your safety, the screens should be closed
18 [The witness withdrew]
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, the next witness will be PW-026; is
20 that correct? And I think the next witness should be brought in.
21 [The witness entered court]
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon, sir. Please wait a moment.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, could you please read aloud the affirmation
25 on the card which is shown to you now.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
2 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 WITNESS: PW-026
4 [The witness answered through interpreter]
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Please sit down and make
6 yourself comfortable.
7 As you are aware of, there are still protective measures in place
8 for you. Your name will not be known outside this courtroom, and
9 Mr. Thayer has some questions for you.
10 Mr. Thayer.
11 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Examination by Mr. Thayer:
13 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
14 A. Good afternoon.
15 MR. THAYER: May we have P348 on the screen, and that shouldn't
16 be broadcast, please.
17 Q. Sir, shortly you'll see a document appearing on your screen.
18 When you were here last time, we did this the old-fashioned way with a
19 piece of paper being shown to you, but today it's going to be on your
20 screen. And I just ask you to confirm whether or not you see your name
21 on the computer screen.
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, the Prosecution would tender P348 at
24 this time.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received under seal.
1 MR. THAYER:
2 Q. Sir, do you recall providing a signed witness statement to the
3 Office of the Prosecutor in February of 2007?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. And recently did you have an opportunity to read that witness
6 statement again in your own language?
7 A. Yes, I did have that opportunity, and I did read it.
8 Q. Can you attest before this Trial Chamber that that witness
9 statement fairly and accurately reflects what you said to the OTP during
10 that interview in February of 2007?
11 A. Yes, I can attest to that.
12 Q. Now, during that interview, were you also shown a packet, a
13 booklet of 23 intercepts?
14 A. Yes, I was.
15 Q. And in February of 2007, when you looked at that booklet of
16 intercepts, were you able to determine whether or not you took part in
17 intercepting, recording, transcribing, and/or transmitting those
18 intercepted conversations?
19 A. Yes and yes.
20 MR. THAYER: Now, with the Usher's assistance, I would just ask
21 that this booklet of intercepts be handed to the witness. And once we've
22 completed this next step, we'll proceed to the 92 ter litany for the
23 statement itself.
24 Q. Sir, I would ask you to take a couple of moments. I know it's
25 been a week - I think we met last Monday - but if you could take a moment
1 and just flip through that booklet, and tell the Trial Chamber whether or
2 not you can confirm that those are the same intercepts which were shown
3 to you in February of 2007 which you have identified yourself as
4 participating in.
5 A. I can confirm that I participated in the recording and the
6 reproduction of these conversations.
7 Q. Now, Witness, I want to turn your attention to tab 4 of your
8 booklet. This is P330, for the e-court. I just want to clarify one
9 thing before we move a little bit.
10 I referred to a packet of 23 intercepts. You said you recalled
11 reviewing 23 intercepts, and our booklet contains 21 intercepts. If we
12 look at tab 4, do you see a report numbered 538? Tab 4. The first
13 report on the page is 537. It's dated 11 July 1995. And at the bottom
14 of the page --
15 A. Okay. Yes. Yes, yes, that's that.
16 Q. Now, within this report, can you tell the Trial Chamber
17 approximately how many, if we could call them, sub-conversations there
18 were in this report?
19 A. There are three sub-conversations.
20 Q. Okay. And now those have been combined into one tab in this
21 booklet; is that correct?
22 A. Yes, that's correct.
23 Q. And last time around, what we did was each of those
24 sub-conversations got a tab of its own. That's why we had 23 intercepts
25 in your booklet last time around. Is that correct?
1 A. Yes, that's correct.
2 Q. Now, sir, turning back to your February 2007 witness statement,
3 can you attest before this Trial Chamber that were you asked the same
4 questions today that you were asked back then, that your answers would be
5 the same?
6 A. Yes, my answers would be the same.
7 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, the Prosecution tenders P326, the
8 witness's witness statement, under seal.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received under seal.
10 MR. THAYER: As well as the 21 intercepts in the booklet, P327 to
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: They will be received, and it should be noted
13 that the Exhibit P330, in fact, contains three different intercepts. For
14 the understanding of the statement given to the OTP, it should be noted,
15 all these under seal.
16 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 And I would note, additionally, that just for the record, in the
18 English version, and the English version only, of the witness's
19 statement, there is a typo there at paragraph 10. There's a reference to
20 20 typewritten intercepts, and one can clearly see that they've been
21 numbered 1 to 23, and that's just a simple typo in the English version.
22 The original B/C/S version is correct.
23 At this time, Your Honour, I would like to read the Rule 92 ter
24 summary for this witness.
25 The witness became a Ham Radio enthusiast in 1978 and competed in
1 amateur radio competitions between 1978 and 1985. He has a B category
2 Ham Radio certification. During the war, he served in a signals and
3 communications unit of the State Security Services. In December 1994, he
4 began working occasionally as an intercept operator at the northern site,
5 and by the end of January 1995 he was working regular shifts there.
6 The witness typically worked five-day, two-man shifts. The army
7 also had personnel present at the northern site, but he does not know
8 from which unit. His unit focused on certain frequencies and channels,
9 and he became familiar at the time with the names and voices of various
10 political and military personnel, including the accused.
11 The witness described the procedure used when intercepting,
12 taping, and transcribing VRS radio communications as follows: A receiver
13 would monitor radio-relay 800 and was attached to a scanner. When a
14 particular frequency or channel was detected, they would begin recording
15 and listen to the conversation to determine if it was of interest, and if
16 so, they would continue recording it with an attached UHER recorder.
17 They would then write out the recorded conversation onto pieces of paper
18 by hand, then type their handwritten transcript into a computer, encrypt
19 the transcript and send it off. If the conversation were urgent, they
20 would immediately remove the tape, place it on another tape machine, and
21 begin transcribing. They would destroy the handwritten transcripts.
22 The witness and his colleague took turns transcribing and typing,
23 and sometimes would listen to a recording repeatedly until they were
24 certain of what they were hearing. If they could not hear a word or
25 portion of a recording, they would place dots. If they did not know the
1 participants, they would so indicate with Xs and Ys. Sometimes he would
2 consult with the army intercept operators as another set of ears. They
3 would always look for confirmation of a participant's identity; for
4 example, by the participant being identified either by himself or others,
5 or by voice identification. They would not write down a participant's
6 name if they were unsure, since they did not want to take the risk of
7 misidentifying a participant.
8 Sometimes the witness would include in his reports intercept data
9 provided by the army intercept operators also working at the northern
10 site. He believes the data was provided on a disk and would typically be
11 added at the end of his report with a heading indicating that it was from
12 the army.
13 The witness reviewed 23 intercept print-outs and confirmed that
14 he was either the recorder/transcriber or the typist/cryptographer for
15 each. His code-name and that of his colleague appear at the bottom of
16 each. The side-by-side pairing of code-names at the end of the
17 print-outs was meant to indicate recorder/transcriber first and
18 typist/cryptographer second. However, he cannot be 100 per cent sure
19 that this order was correct on every print-out. In any event, they were
20 familiar with each other's intercepts because they worked so closely and
21 listened to each other's conversations.
22 Q. Now, Witness, I just have a couple of questions for you to expand
23 a little bit on what you said in your 2007 witness statement, and also to
24 touch on some issues that were raised in the Popovic trial.
25 If we look at tabs 2 and 3 of our booklets, and this is P328 and
1 329 in e-court --
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It should not be broadcast, I suppose.
3 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Q. We are talking about reports number 535 and 536. For the
5 purposes of the English translation, they are both included on the same
6 page. So if we're following the English in the booklet, we can just stay
7 with tab 2. In your language, sir, in the original document, report
8 number 535 starts at the bottom and then goes over to the next page.
9 I just want to first confirm that you're following me.
10 A. Yes, I'm following. I can follow you, yes.
11 Q. Okay. If we look at these two intercepts, they indicate that
12 they are between General Gvero and President Karadzic; is that correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. But, in fact, only one of the participants could be heard by you
15 at the time you took this intercept; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So who could you hear in this conversation?
18 A. We could hear General Gvero.
19 Q. Now, in neither of these two conversations, from what we can see
20 here, does either speaker identify President Karadzic by his name; is
21 that correct?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. So can you please tell the Trial Chamber how it was that if you
24 couldn't hear President Karadzic, you only hear General Gvero, and we
25 don't have President Karadzic identified by his name here, how was it
1 that you identified, in the heading of this conversation, that the two
2 participants were President Karadzic and General Gvero? Could you just
3 explain that for the Trial Chamber, please?
4 A. It was like this: Before any of the conversations conducted by
5 the high-ranking officers of the VRS, those conversations were preceded
6 by the conversations of their subordinates. It happened only rarely or
7 actually never that high-ranking officers either made calls or received
8 calls. They had their subordinates who did that. We knew their names,
9 we knew their voices. One of those subordinates was Rajko Banduka, who
10 always picked up the telephone if -- and in this case we're talking about
11 Gvero. If Gvero wanted to talk to somebody, it wasn't Gvero who dialed
12 the number he wanted to call. He actually delegated his subordinate, who
13 then called the person whom he was supposed to call. He greeted him and
14 announced the caller. In other situations, if somebody called Mr. Gvero,
15 the person who called asked for Mr. Gvero and then he would be put
17 What I'm saying is that the conversations of high-ranking
18 officers were preceded by short conversations between their subordinates.
19 We did not record their names because we were not interested in their
20 conversations. What we recorded were only important things.
21 You have to know that there was a shortage of tapes. We had to
22 be very mindful of that. So if we had recorded the conversations of the
23 subordinates, it would take up a lot of space on the tapes.
24 Then we also had to save energy. Sometimes it took as long as
25 10 minutes for the interlocutors to start talking. We saved energy by
1 switching on [as interpreted] the tape-recorder while we were waiting for
2 the high-ranking officers to pick up the telephone. There were, as I'm
3 saying, short conversations preceding the ones that we were interested in
4 and that we did record, and from those short conversations we learned who
5 the interlocutors would be, once we started recording their conversation.
6 Q. Okay, sir. I just want to clarify one thing that I see here on
7 the transcript. I have recorded as your answer:
8 "We saved energy by switching on the tape-recorder while we were
9 waiting for the high-ranking officers to pick up the telephone."
10 Is that what you meant to say or did you mean to say something
11 else in that sentence?
12 A. It was like this: Our tape-recorder would be switched off. Its
13 engine would be switched off. The tape-recorder was still on, but we
14 would switch off its engine to save energy. This is exactly what I said.
15 Q. Okay. And you also mentioned in your answer that sometimes it
16 would take 10 minutes for the talking between the two participants who
17 interested you to begin. Can you just tell the Trial Chamber, in your
18 experience -- give an example? What accounted sometimes for that
19 10-minute wait that you had before the conversation began?
20 A. There was a short interruption in the interpretation. Could the
21 interpreter please repeat the last portion of the interpreted text that
22 was interrupted?
23 MR. THAYER: I can just ask the question again. I believe that
24 would be easier for everybody.
25 Q. Sir, you referred to sometimes a 10-minute wait. What, in your
1 experience, was the reason for the 10-minute wait? What was going on?
2 A. Well, sometimes those persons who were requested were absent,
3 were not in the room, or were otherwise engaged. In any case, they were
4 absent, and then the person on hold would be told to keep on waiting, if
5 it was urgent. If it wasn't urgent, if the call was not urgent, then
6 that person who called would not be put on hold, but said to call back
8 Q. Okay. Let's look at P345 for a moment, please. This is tab 19
9 of the booklets.
10 MR. THAYER: And if we could scroll up just a little bit on the
11 B/C/S, on the original version, please, just to catch the very -- I'm
12 sorry, other direction. Scroll down. Perfect.
13 Q. Sir, I see you're using the booklet. Feel free to use the
14 booklet, if that's easier for you. Do you see report number 988?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. I just want to ask you a couple questions about this
17 intercept, in light of some of the things you've said in your statement
18 and during your testimony in the last trial.
19 We have here a conversation at 1002 hours, and the date of the
20 conversation is 1 August 1995
21 can see, if we look at the beginning of the intercept, we have somebody
22 you've identified as Stevo telling somebody named Jevtic:
23 "Listen, Ljubisa Beara is going to call you. You know who he
25 And the other guy says: "Who?"
1 And Stevo says: "Beara."
2 And then the other participant says: "No, I don't."
3 And then Stevo explains: "The man up there, my boss."
4 If we go further into the conversation - and we may need to go to
5 the next page in e-court in the B/C/S only - there's a reference to a
6 Rajko. Do you see that reference to a Rajko? You'll see a line, sir,
7 where Stevo says:
8 "Just a second. Rajko, if you're listening, put this man through
9 to Beara."
10 A. Yes, yes. Okay, yes.
11 Q. And can you tell the Trial Chamber what then happens after Stevo
13 "Just a second. Rajko, if you're listening, put this man through
14 to Beara"?
15 A. Stevo spoke to Rajko, and Rajko -- just bear with me. I need to
16 check the frequency. 779, 13. Stevo spoke to Rajko, and Rajko put him
17 through -- or, rather, Rajko put Jevtic through to Stevo. Rajko was the
18 one who put Jevtic through to Stevo, and then -- again, could you please
19 bear with me. And then Stevo spoke to him, because he probably assumed
20 that he was listening to that conversation. It often happened that those
21 people who announced them and put them through also listened in, and they
22 knew it, because they had to be on top of things if those who were
23 engaged in the conversation had to be put through to somebody else. I
24 don't know if I provided a clear-enough explanation.
25 Q. Okay. And then in your experience monitoring these channels and
1 frequencies, who is Rajko?
2 A. Since this is the frequency and the channel is 13, well, it was
3 probably Rajko Banduka I specified a moment ago, because he usually
4 answered or put people through on this channel and that frequency.
5 Q. And so how does Beara get on the -- get involved in this
7 A. He got involved -- well, technically speaking, you know how
8 people are put through. A connection is simply made to a certain
9 extension from the switchboard that Jevtic called. Yes, Jevtic. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. And then we have -- we can see, on page 2 of the English
11 and, I think, on the page that you're looking at, you've written down
12 that Beara gets on the line and says:
13 "Hello, good morning. Ljubo Beara speaking."
14 And then Jevtic introduces himself and says: "Jevtic."
15 Beara says: "Nice to hear you." And then we see some dots.
16 And can you tell the Trial Chamber, what do those dots mean?
17 A. These dots probably meant that the other person said something we
18 couldn't understand. It sometimes happened that one of the interlocutors
19 said something we could not make out. This could have been something
20 simple. But in any case, the dots would mean that we did not understand
21 his entire utterance. Someone would say something that you simply could
22 not understand, and this is how we marked such portions which were not
23 heard well enough and which we could not decipher.
24 Q. Okay. And then you've written down that you heard Beara say:
25 "I'm a colonel. Listen, man, Stevo's told you what we want."
1 My question to you, sir, is: How common was it, in your
2 experience, for these participants, whether they're VRS officers or
3 high-level politicians, to identify themselves, as they have here, by
4 saying their full name and their position? We have Stevo saying Beara's
5 his boss, and you have Beara introducing himself by name and identifying
6 himself as a colonel. How common was that, in your experience?
7 A. It happened whenever the interlocutors spoke to each other for
8 the first time. Then they would introduce themselves in full, and
9 sometimes they would revert to pseudonyms or codes, such as 01, which was
10 for Mladic because he was the person number 1.
11 Frequently, they mentioned their names. One of the reasons was
12 probably -- for being so open, because -- well, I don't know what the
13 exact number of phones was, but on channel 13, Rajko could be reached via
15 the number began with 5 followed by a 3, I think. I remember that
16 clearly. That was probably the reason why they introduced themselves so
17 openly. They presumed we were unable to listen in on that line.
18 Q. Okay, sir. Just a couple more questions before the break, and
19 then I'll conclude my examination-in-chief, with apologies to the
20 Trial Chamber for exceeding my estimate.
21 MR. THAYER: May we have P339 on e-court, please. This is tab 13
22 of the booklet.
23 Q. If you want to turn to tab 13 in your booklet, sir, or look at
24 the computer, it will be up there soon enough.
25 While we're waiting for this to be called up: When you received,
1 you said in your statement, a disk from the army operators at the
2 northern site for you to include in your MUP reports, was the intercept
3 information on that disk being provided by the army encrypted at that
4 point or not?
5 A. It was not encrypted. We received them unencrypted. We would
6 then attach them to our reports and mark them as material having been
7 received from the army, and then we encrypted it.
8 Q. Okay. So let's look at what's on the screen. Do you see a
9 document with "CSB
10 MR. THAYER: And this should not be broadcast, please. And the
11 date should be 17 July, first report, 652.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think it's on the screen.
13 MR. THAYER:
14 Q. Do you see it there, sir, on the screen?
15 A. Yes, I can see it.
16 Q. Okay. Now, we don't even need to look at the English translation
17 for the question I have. We see here reports number 652, 653, 654, 655.
18 MR. THAYER: And if we could turn the page in the original,
20 Q. At the upper left-hand corner, we see -- at the end of the
21 intercept that started on the prior page, we see some initials and
22 numbers and a slash and then some initials and numbers. What are those,
24 A. The two numbers, the two codes?
25 Q. Yes. Without saying the numbers, themselves, can you just tell
1 the Trial Chamber what they are, please?
2 A. These were our codes, mine and my colleague's.
3 Q. Okay. Now, right below that, we see a heading. What does that
4 heading say, sir?
5 A. It says that it was received from a unit of the 2nd Corps. The
6 abbreviation, itself, the "PEB
7 it should be Anti-Electronic Warfare, I think, at least. I'm not
8 100 per cent about the acronym, but in any case, the material following
9 that came from that particular army unit or department.
10 Q. And we see here that this army material was given the report
11 number 656. Do you see that, sir?
12 A. I do.
13 Q. And was that a MUP report number or was that an army number?
14 A. It was our number, MUP number.
15 Q. And if we turn the page in the original, we can see that there's
16 more than one intercept taken by the army that's included in this batch
17 that was given report number 656, so my last question is: Was that the
18 normal procedure, for a batch, as opposed to just a single army
19 intercept, getting a MUP number?
20 A. Yes, this was standard procedure. We assigned only one of our
21 numbers, specifying that that particular document was sent under that
22 number, although it could have contained several reproduced
24 MR. THAYER: That concludes my examination-in-chief. And, again,
25 I apologise for exceeding the estimate.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Thayer.
2 Mr. Tolimir, would it be a convenient time to have the first
3 break now, and after the break you can then commence your
4 cross-examination? Okay.
5 Then we will adjourn now, have our break, and resume 10 minutes
6 past 4.00.
7 --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We apologise for the delay. The Chamber was
10 occupied with another matter, so now we are back.
11 And, Mr. Tolimir, please put the questions to the witness for
12 your cross-examination.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
14 I'd like to greet everyone in the courtroom yet again, including
15 the witness.
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Since we speak the same language, after each of
18 my questions I will say, "Thank you," to mark the end of it, and please
19 pause before providing your answer for the transcript. Thank you.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have P326. It is
21 the statement provided by this witness to the OTP on the 6th and
22 7th of February, 2007. Thank you.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, please switch on your microphone.
25 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Since I see on the cover page that the witness signed the English
2 version, I wanted to ask him whether he also received the Serbian
3 version. Thank you.
4 A. I don't see any signatures in the Bosnian version. I don't know.
5 I can't recall precisely.
6 Q. Please tell us where you provided this statement in
7 February 2007. Was it here at the Tribunal or somewhere in the
8 B and H Federation?
9 A. Here at the Tribunal.
10 Q. Thank you. Did anyone get in touch with you before that,
11 announcing that a statement will be taken from you at the Tribunal about
12 these events?
13 A. Yes, I had been contacted in advance.
14 Q. Thank you. Can you tell the Chamber who contacted you and what
15 they told you?
16 A. I cannot recall any particular names. I don't remember any
17 names, but I do know that I was in touch with Tribunal personnel. They
18 introduced themselves, and they were accompanied by an interpreter. This
19 is how we got in touch.
20 Q. So Tribunal personnel. Did you consider any documents on that
21 occasion which you had created during the war?
22 A. You mean when we first met? No, I did not.
23 Q. Thank you. Were you contacted individually on that occasion or
24 was a whole group of you from your unit contacted at the same time?
25 A. They got in touch with me at that time, and there were two other
1 work-mates of mine at the time.
2 Q. Thank you. These two work-mates, were they from the State or the
3 Military Security Service?
4 A. They were my colleagues from the MUP.
5 Q. Thank you. Were any of your superiors present on that occasion
6 or were there any superiors from the army present on that occasion when
7 you were contacted by the Tribunal representatives in the Federation of
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina? Thank you.
9 A. Well, let me put it this way: It was in the place I hail from
10 and where I still reside. There were two of my colleagues with me, one
11 of whom had been my immediate superior back then.
12 Q. Thank you. Was he also present at the Tribunal when you provided
13 your statements? Thank you.
14 A. No, he was not.
15 Q. When you provided your statement at the Tribunal, were there any
16 members of your unit or any military units present on that occasion?
17 A. No.
18 Q. When you provided that statement here, was it typed only in
19 English and then read back to you in Serbian, and that is how you came to
20 sign it, or did you receive a version in either English or Serbian to
21 check whether it reflected what you had said?
22 A. Yes, I received a Bosnian version, which I read. As for why it
23 was signed in English, I cannot say right now. In any case, I did
24 receive a Bosnian version, which I read.
25 Q. Did you receive it at the occasion of giving the statement or was
1 it typed out later in English and in Serbian by those who took the
3 A. I received it after it was typed out in Bosnian. They gave it to
4 me to peruse it. It's been three years, so I can't remember whether I
5 received it right away or after a while. In any case, if you're asking
6 me whether I signed it in the same period of time when I provided a
7 statement, then the answer is, yes, this is when I was given that version
8 to read it.
9 Q. Were there two people typing, one in Serbian and the other one in
10 English, in the same room on the occasion of the taking of your
11 statement? Thank you.
12 A. I can't recall precisely such details. There were not two
13 people. There were two people present, but they were not typing, so
14 there were no typists for either of the languages. It was only typed out
15 in one language, but I'm not sure in what language -- which language came
16 first. I'm not sure what the sequence was, because, after all, it was
17 not up to me to determine.
18 Q. Thank you. Were only those people whom we can see on the cover
19 page present? If you look on the bottom of the page on the screen, were
20 only these two people present?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did anyone type your statement at that moment?
23 A. I think they took notes, and then later on it was typed out. I'm
24 not certain of that. I think it was written by hand and then typed.
25 Q. Thank you. Did you write this statement or was it written down
1 by the two people who took your statement?
2 A. Those two people did that.
3 Q. Thank you. Was the statement audio-recorded?
4 A. No, no.
5 Q. Were you ever audio-recorded by the people taking your statements
6 to be used as your evidence before this Tribunal?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Thank you. Before you arrived here at the Tribunal, did you have
9 any meetings or were you trained about the way statements are written at
10 the Tribunal and about the way statements are provided at the Tribunal?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you ever go abroad during the war?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you attend any training after the war about the job that you
15 had been doing during the war and later?
16 A. After the war? Are you asking me about after the war?
17 Q. Thank you. I will be more precise in my question. After 1996,
18 when the war ended with the Dayton Accord, did you undergo any training
19 abroad about electronic surveillance?
20 A. No.
21 Q. In your statement, paragraph 3 on page 3, you stated --
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see page 3, please. Thank
23 you. Thank you. My legal advisor is correcting me. I should have asked
24 for page 2, paragraph 3, whereas I'd asked for page 3, paragraph 3.
25 Q. In paragraph 3, you say that you started working in the
1 State Security Service in April 1992. Is that correct? Thank you.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you. Do you think that that was your obligatory military
4 service or was it you employed at the State Security Service?
5 A. At that time, I was a member of the reserve force. In practical
6 terms, I volunteered as a reserve officer of the State Security Service.
7 Q. Thank you. From when to when did you work at the State Security
8 Service? Thank you.
9 A. From April 1992 until March 1996.
10 Q. Thank you. In your statement -- in your statement, in
11 paragraph 3, you say that from January 1995 you started working at
12 northern site. Is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us when the intercept group of your
15 service was set up in the northern site?
16 A. It was set up -- it was set up immediately. Or, rather, when I
17 arrived, immediately after that a group was set up to work as intercept
18 operators, but not in that location. We were moved to that location
20 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us whether you know if anybody from
21 your unit of the State Security had undergone training, in view of the
22 fact that the State Security Services had not been engaged in those tasks
23 before the war, only the military did that?
24 A. I don't know.
25 Q. Were members of your group trained by the military for the job
1 that you later did? Thank you.
2 A. We were trained, if that could be called training. It was not
3 classical training. We were simply introduced to new pieces of
4 equipment. We were explained how certain pieces of equipment worked, and
5 if that can be considered training, then we were trained, although those
6 things didn't last long. However, since we were all familiar with radio
7 equipment and we had been all Ham operators before that, we were not
8 strangers to most of the equipment that we were supposed to work with.
9 Q. Thank you. Did you receive from your superior or from your unit
10 note-books for manual transcribing of the conversations you intercepted?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Thank you. Did army members receive -- were they issued with
13 such note-books?
14 A. I don't know. I don't know how they operated.
15 Q. Thank you. Was there a shop in the vicinity of that facility
16 where you worked? How close was the nearest shop?
17 A. At that time, there were virtually no shops. There were,
18 actually, but the nearest shop, as far as I can remember, was some five
19 or six kilometres away from the site where we worked.
20 Q. Thank you. Was that the first -- the closest village to the
21 northern site?
22 A. I can't tell you exactly whether it was, because you could
23 approach our facility from two sides, so I really don't know which
24 village was the closest to us, on which side. But I believe that there
25 was another settlement closer to us, but it did not have a shop. The one
1 that I mentioned before was on the other side, and there was a shop
3 Q. When you were on duty, could you go and visit that village that
4 was five kilometres away?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell me whether your base, where
7 your superiors sometimes went back and carried either papers or tapes,
8 was that base close or was it far?
9 A. The base was in the centre, in the central MUP office. In the
10 town where I resided, to put it that way.
11 Q. Thank you. Was the base any closer or did everything have to be
12 sent or did everything go to the MUP?
13 A. What base are you referring to? I don't understand your
15 Q. I mean the base where you sent the data to.
16 A. That base was at the MUP. Our base was the MUP.
17 Q. Okay. Let's explain for the Trial Chamber that that base was in
18 the city. Let's not mention any names.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And where was the military base with regard to the northern site?
21 How far was it from you? Was it also in the city centre?
22 A. Yes, yes, the military base was also in the same city, in the
23 same centre.
24 Q. Thank you. Was the commander of the unit that shared your
25 facility also based there in that base?
1 A. I really don't know how they were deployed. I don't know when
2 any of them came and who they were. I was not aware of how long they
3 stayed, who was billeted there. I did sometimes see them, but I didn't
4 know anything about their shifts, how they were manned. I knew some
5 people who were their commanders, but I don't know who was whose
6 superior. I was not aware of all those details because we didn't share
7 the same offices with them. We did share the facility, but we each
8 occupied our own space, our own offices and our own rooms.
9 Q. Thank you. Did the facility have a kitchen, and is that where
10 you received your regular meals, or did the meals arrive from a base
11 which was outside of the facility?
12 A. Well, there were different ways of food supply. For a while,
13 there was a kitchen in the facility [Realtime transcript read in error
14 "city"], and then because of the shortage of water, food was brought from
15 another facility, military facility, which was a bit further, but I don't
16 know which units were billeted there. So there was a kitchen there, and
17 we would receive food from there. In any case, we received food
18 regularly in different ways. There was no need for us to go anywhere in
19 search for food, as it were. We were supplied with meals regularly.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 MR. THAYER: Sorry for the interruption, Mr. President.
22 I note in the English transcript, we -- at page 39, line 7,
23 there's a word that appears. There appears to be some question of what
24 the word was that the witness said. And I heard the translation. I
25 don't want to become a witness, but if we could perhaps have the -- that
1 portion read back to the witness, just so we have a clear English
2 transcript. Again, I think he said what he said, but I'm not sure if the
3 transcript accurately reflects what he said.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The problem is that our numbering is disturbed.
5 MR. THAYER: I can give you the -- yes. It's line 7, page 39.
6 The --
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sorry, we don't have page 39 because something
8 has happened.
9 MR. THAYER: Okay. Then it's page 9, and it's the sentence --
10 there's a paragraph and answer that begins:
11 "Well, there were different ways of food supply. For a while,
12 there was a kitchen in the," and what's printed in the transcript is
13 "city" followed by a caret, the symbol, and then "because of the shortage
14 of water." So that's just the portion I'm referring to, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I remember very well that I heard "facility"
16 instead of "city."
17 Is that correct? Were you talking about facility instead of
19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter confirms that they used the
20 word "facility."
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I was talking about the
22 facility, not about a city.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
24 Mr. Tolimir, carry on, please.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Could you please tell us whether you sent the transcribed
3 conversations to your base on floppy disks, or did you courier them to
4 the base, or did you use any other means to send those transcribed
5 conversations to the base?
6 A. The way we delivered our documents to the base was via a modem,
7 which means that we have a PC which was connected to a modem or, rather,
8 to a telephone line that we had up there, and by that modem connection we
9 sent data, coded data, that is, to our base. That was the way we
10 operated. What you described as a possible way would have been extremely
12 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us whether, in the course of
13 one day, did you maintain communication with the city centre or was that
14 connection or communication only periodical? How frequent were your
15 communications, how frequent did you receive supplies?
16 A. There was a telephone connection, and it was used as needed. In
17 any case, we could communicate with the base. We also had the modem
18 communication that I just described for the transfer of data. In case
19 our telephone lines were down, and that did happen, we had a reserve
20 possibility to use our radio communication, the so-called Paket Radio, by
21 which a radio set is connected to a PC, and that's how you could send
22 data to the base by means of Paket -- Radio Paket communication. And you
23 could use that Radio Paket communication for other purposes as well.
24 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us which computer programme you used
25 to record intercepted conversations? Thank you.
1 A. In order to type the text into the computer, we used Word.
2 Q. I beg your pardon? What did you use? I didn't understand you.
3 Could you please repeat what you said? Your answer was what? Thank you.
4 A. Data entry was done in Word. I can't remember which type of
5 Word, but that Word programme came together with the operative system
6 Windows 3.11.
7 Q. Thank you. And was that used in the entire unit or was it only
8 used for your documents, the ones that you processed?
9 A. Could you please explain? What do you mean when you say
10 "processing"? I'm talking about typing. We used Word as a typing
11 machine, and the document was later processed, encrypted, and so on and
12 so forth. What you asked me previously was about typing, and we used
13 Word. We had another encryption programme for data processing.
14 Q. Thank you. You answered my question.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see P327 and P328 on
16 the screen. Thank you.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Those are numbers 1 and 2 in your binder.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I'm not going to ask you about the contents of these documents.
22 You don't even have to look at them. I'm not interested in the contents
23 at all. Do you see the conversations?
24 A. [No verbal response]
25 Q. Here you have them on the screen. Do you see that only one
1 participant appears in both conversations? Thank you.
2 A. Yes, I can see that.
3 Q. Thank you. Could you please explain to the Trial Chamber and to
4 everybody else how come that whenever UNPROFOR officers are involved in
5 conversations, only one participant appears and no UNPROFOR officers are
6 ever heard? Thank you.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
8 MR. THAYER: Just an objection to that question, Mr. President.
9 I don't think that's a fair reflection of the evidence that the accused
10 well knows is before the Trial Chamber. I understand that this witness
11 is capable of answering the question, but that is not a fair
12 characterisation of the testimony that has been before the Trial Chamber
13 for the last couple of days.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
15 Please bear that in mind, Mr. Tolimir. If you put a statement to
16 the witness, it should correctly reflect what the witness has said.
17 Please carry on.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
19 I am displaying here the transcribed intercepts which this
20 witness recorded and signed the transcriptions. If it is not the case,
21 I'll drop my questions.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, please carry on with your questioning.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. We can remove -- we can
24 remove this one, and let's display P336 and P326. I'm not interested in
25 the contents. Again, I just want to have it displayed, please.
1 We are still waiting for it. Thank you.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir --
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is 581.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The number P326 is the OTP statement. Do you
5 want to have that on the screen? Perhaps you misspoke.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] P336 on the left-hand side, and
7 P327 on the right-hand side.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's on the screen now. Please carry on.
9 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 Q. I wanted to ask you something about P581 [as interpreted] on the
11 left-hand side. We can see that the letters -- the letters with
12 diacritics in the B/C/S are marked with double Cs or Zs. Is this how you
13 marked them?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. In P327, we see that, for example, instead of an S with a
16 diacritic, there's only an S, and instead of a Z with a diacritic,
17 there's only a Z. How do you explain this? What was the reason for it?
18 A. I will try to explain it as follows: On the keyboard -- well,
19 this is a technical issue. The computer was not adapted to the Bosnian
20 language. When you tried to type letters with diacritics, these are the
21 letters that come out. It's a computer thing. When you press those
22 keys, this is what you get. That is why.
23 Q. Thank you. My question is this: Did you have two computers for
24 typing, and did you have a typist?
25 A. We did not have a typist. And for a while we did have two
1 computers, and then later on we only had one. For a while, we even had a
2 laptop and a desktop, and we used both. So we combined the two, we used
4 It also depended on who did the typing. Some people used only Ss
5 instead of the letters with diacritics, or double Ss. Something else
6 also happened. I'm trying to refresh my memory. It also happened
7 sometimes that the encryption programme we used did this in the following
8 way: If you typed letters with diacritics, when encrypting those letters
9 would be encrypted in a certain fashion. And when they would be restored
10 back to the usual script, this is what would come out.
11 Q. Does this mean that at encryption, the computer inserted one
12 sign, and when encryption was being removed, another came out; is that
14 A. Well, it basically means that those letters in the Bosnian
15 language came out that way after encryption and -- well, yes, this is it.
16 Those letters simply came out that way.
17 Q. Thank you. You can see these two documents. Which computer
18 programme did you use in these two documents? Was it the same programme
19 in both? And if you can, tell us what type of computer was used for both
20 of these.
21 A. As for the programme for typing, as I said, it was Word.
22 Q. In both cases? Sorry for interrupting you.
23 A. Yes, it was Word. And as for the computers, I think it were the
24 286 processor computers. I think even the laptop was with a
25 286 processor.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness, for having
2 testified. I thank you for coming over here and discussing these things
3 with me. I wish you a safe journey back. Thank you.
4 Thank you, Mr. President, this concludes my examination.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir.
6 Mr. Thayer, do you have re-examination?
7 MR. THAYER: Very briefly, Mr. President, if the Trial Chamber
8 pleases, one question.
9 And if we could have P326 displayed and not broadcast. This is
10 the witness's OTP witness statement.
11 Re-examination by Mr. Thayer:
12 Q. Sir, you were asked a number of questions about the actual taking
13 of your statement, and who typed what, and which version came first, the
14 English version or the Bosnian version, which one you signed, and so
15 forth. I just want to ask you a couple of questions perhaps to clarify
16 that issue.
17 Do you see your statement on the screen, both in your language
18 and in the English language, the latter having your signature at the
19 bottom? Do you see that, sir?
20 A. I do.
21 MR. THAYER: Okay. In the English version, if we could turn to
22 page 5, please. And in the Bosnian version, that is page 6.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We need the English version. Both are in B/C/S
25 MR. THAYER: Yes, okay.
1 Q. Now, sir, we've flipped them. On the left, we have the English
2 version, and do you see where your signature is down at the very bottom
3 of page 5?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. And in the corresponding Bosnian translation of that on the
6 right-hand part of the screen, do you see where it says "Witness
7 Acknowledgment" in your language? Do you see that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And what does -- if you would just read that witness
10 acknowledgment out loud in your own language from that B/C/S version.
11 What does that say there?
12 A. Could we please zoom in? Please zoom in.
13 Q. Sorry, yes. Is that better, Witness?
14 A. This is fine, this is fine. The statement was read back to me in
15 Bosnian language and contains everything I have said, according to my
16 knowledge and recollection. I gave this statement voluntarily, and I'm
17 aware that it may be used in a criminal proceedings before the
18 International Criminal Tribunal for the crimes committed in the territory
19 of the former Yugoslavia
20 publicly testify at the Tribunal.
21 Q. Okay. And, sir, in February of 2007, were you able to read
22 English well enough to read a witness statement in English or did you
23 have to have somebody read the witness statement back to you?
24 A. I could not read it in English. It was read back to me in
25 Bosnian, and I understood it fully. I signed it as such.
1 Q. So when we see, in the English version, in the English language,
2 the witness acknowledgment which you've signed, how was it at the time
3 that you were able to sign your name there when you weren't able to read
4 the English language, just to clarify the situation, I hope, once and for
6 A. It is precisely as I said. The statement was read back to me,
7 and I was acquainted with what was taken down as my words. This was the
8 only way to do it, because I don't speak any English.
9 Q. So does this help you figure out which version came first, the
10 English version or the Bosnian version? And I'm speaking about the
11 written versions of your witness statement.
12 A. The statement was written in Bosnian, the one that was read back
13 to me. Yes, in Bosnian.
14 Q. Okay. If that's your recollection, can you tell the
15 Trial Chamber why you signed the English version and not the Bosnian
17 A. I can't remember why. It's been three years. I really can't
18 remember why I signed the English version.
19 MR. THAYER: Okay. Thank you, Witness. No further questions.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. But please help me to understand the
21 last topic.
22 Questioned by the Court:
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Who was it who read back to you your statement?
24 A. The interpreter who signed it. We could see it a moment ago.
25 There was a name there in the English version. The interpreter who was
1 there read back the statement to me.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Was it a man or a woman?
3 A. A woman. If necessary, I can tell you the name.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, it's not necessary. I just wanted this
5 identification, to have it from you.
6 And could you say which -- the text she was reading back to you,
7 in which language this piece of paper with the text was, in English or in
9 A. As far as I recall, she kept notes.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You told us that you signed the English version.
11 Who prepared the English version? Who typed it before you signed it?
12 A. I don't know. It wasn't typed before me. As far as I recall, my
13 statement was taken and -- well, whether the woman taking the statement
14 also typed, that's something I don't know.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You told us who was present in addition to the
16 interpreter, the name we saw on the first page of your witness statement.
17 Was that a representative of the OTP, of the Prosecution?
18 A. Yes.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Did he write this text which you signed?
20 A. I'm not clear about this. Could you please clarify? Do you mean
21 whether he wrote it or typed it out? You see, I don't know such details.
22 I know that the statement was taken, that the woman wrote it, but I don't
23 know when it was typed out and by what technical means. That is
24 something I don't know. I don't think it was done on the spot. And
25 after it was read back to me, I signed it.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Did all that happen at the same day?
2 A. I was there twice for extended periods of time.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If you look at the screen, there are two dates,
4 6th and 7th of February, 2007. And were the same people present at these
5 two days?
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: A representative of the OTP and the interpreter;
8 is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
11 Are there any additional questions?
12 You will be pleased, sir, to hear that this concludes your
13 examination. Thank you very much that you were able to come to The Hague
14 and assist us, and now you are free, of course, to return to your normal
15 activities. Thank you very much again, and the Court Officer will help
16 you to leave the courtroom.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, thank you very much, again, for your
19 assistance. And the next witness, I suppose, is ready to testify.
20 MR. THAYER: He is, Mr. President. And I'll wait until the
21 witness exits, but I -- I think I can perhaps add one thing to the
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, and goodbye, sir.
24 [The witness withdrew]
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
1 MR. THAYER: Just briefly, Mr. President.
2 If the Court desires, we can put an investigator on the stand to
3 talk about the process, for example, that engendered the witness
4 statement, for example, in this case. As an officer of the Court,
5 there's no dispute that those present were myself and an interpreter.
6 Typically, we try to keep the interpreters out of --
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, I think it's not necessary to --
8 MR. THAYER: Okay.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- explain it any further.
10 MR. THAYER: Okay. I just -- I didn't know whether things got
11 more confused or less confused. I did my best with the witness, and it
12 was what it was.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir tried to clarify, you tried to
14 clarify, and I tried to clarify the situation.
15 MR. THAYER: Okay. Okay, all right. Very well.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But I think we will have more occasions to deal
17 with this and similar topics.
18 MR. THAYER: In that case, may I be excused for the rest of the
19 proceedings today?
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Thayer.
21 And Mr. Vanderpuye is welcome.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon, sir. Please stand for a moment.
24 Good afternoon, sir. Welcome to the Tribunal.
25 Please read aloud the affirmation on the card shown to you now.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
2 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 WITNESS: PW-048
4 [The witness answered through interpreter]
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Please sit down.
6 Mr. Vanderpuye, it's up to you to examine the witness, but
7 I think we should clarify there's no face and voice distortion in place.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: There is face distortion.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Only face distortion and a pseudonym.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's correct, Mr. President. That's right.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, and good afternoon to you,
13 Mr. President, Your Honours.
14 Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:
15 Q. Good afternoon to you, Witness. I have really not that many
16 questions for you today, Witness, but I'm going to ask you, nonetheless,
17 to speak a little slowly and allow a pause between the question and
18 answer so that the interpreters have time to interpret accurately what
19 you say and what I say.
20 The first thing I'd like to do is to show you P364. That should
21 come up on the screen in a moment.
22 And I'll just ask you, without telling us your name, to confirm
23 if you are the person named on this document.
24 A. Yes, that is my name.
25 Q. Very well. Thank you for that.
1 Witness, do you recall having testified in the case of Prosecutor
2 versus Vujadin Popovic on 20 February 2007
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. And was your testimony truthful at the time that you gave it?
5 A. Yes, it was.
6 Q. Have you had an opportunity to review that testimony prior to
7 coming to court today?
8 A. Yes, I have.
9 Q. And did you read the testimony, or was it read back to you, or
10 did you listen to it, if you could just tell us?
11 A. I listened to the audio-recording and went through the written
13 Q. And does the -- does the testimony that you gave at that time, on
14 20 February 2007
15 you to be examined here today and if you were asked the same questions?
16 A. Yes, I would give the same answers.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you for that, Witness.
18 Mr. President, I would like to tender that testimony. I think
19 it's been pre-marked as P362 and P363, and also the pseudonym sheet,
20 which is P364.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The pseudonym sheet, P364, will be marked. It
22 will be received under seal.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But, Mr. Vanderpuye, I was notified that you
25 were -- that you don't intend to admit the Popovic transcript, but
1 instead the OTP statement. Was that a mistake or wrong information?
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yeah. I do intend to introduce the Popovic
3 testimony. The OTP statement is an exhibit to that testimony. I can do
4 it either which way. It's really -- it's really a --
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I just want to clarify the situation.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes. I would like to admit the Popovic
7 testimony, with the OTP statement as an exhibit to that testimony. So I
8 will --
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: These will be received as separate exhibits,
10 under seal.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President. I intend to tender --
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If that is not the redacted version, but the
13 version under seal, the confidential one.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: I believe it is not the redacted version. It is
15 the version under seal, in terms of the OTP statement. Is that what
16 you're referring to or the testimony?
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The testimony.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: The testimony, I've offered the under seal
19 version, and I believe the redacted version as well, both, 362 and 363,
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The confidential version will be received under
22 seal, the other not under seal.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President. I apologise
24 for the confusion.
25 Q. Before I go on, let me just ask you this, Witness: Did you have
1 an opportunity to review your OTP witness statement of 18 February 2007,
2 in addition to your prior testimony?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. And having reviewed that statement, can you tell us, is that --
5 was it a truthful statement?
6 A. Yes, it was.
7 Q. Were you to be asked the same questions as concerns that
8 statement, would you give the same answers as is reflected in the
9 statement today?
10 A. Of course.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: With respect to that statement, Mr. President, I
12 would tender it as a separate exhibit, not a 92 ter statement, but just
13 as an exhibit. It is P349 for the record.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: As I already said, it will be -- it was a little
15 bit premature. I've already stated that this OTP statement will be
16 received as a separate exhibit under seal. I don't have the right page
17 on the screen. There's an error in the numbering of the pages.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Oh, I see. Okay. May I proceed, nonetheless,
19 or --
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, please.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 I have a brief summary I'd like to read into the record of the
23 evidence that the witness provided in the Popovic case.
24 First, I would note the witness, in his evidence, adopted the
25 OTP witness statement of 18 February 2007, which provided, in substance,
1 as follows.
2 And I will need to go into closed session for a moment, private
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
5 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.
19 In 1993, the witness was assigned to the southern site of the
20 Anti-Electronic Warfare Unit as an intercept operator, which at that time
21 went by a different name. Upon his assignment, the witness received
22 instructions concerning the operation of the relevant equipment from his
23 commanding officer and began processing intercepted communications,
24 following an established procedure. This entailed taping intercepted
25 communications, manually transcribing them into note-books, and
1 submitting the handwritten transcriptions for typing and encryption. The
2 witness was demobilised soon after the Dayton Peace Accords took effect.
3 Per his testimony, the witness confirmed having obtained and
4 transcribed 12 intercepts from July 1995 pursuant to his responsibilities
5 and duties as an intercept operator.
6 The work of the operators was monitored by their superiors, who
7 provided note-books and collected them after transcriptions had been
8 entered into them. Their superiors would also advise the operators as to
9 the urgency of a given intercept. Although they were not given specific
10 instructions about what letters to use to denote a given participant, for
11 example, undetermined participants were usually indicated by X and Y.
12 Operators would always note down the channel, time, and participants for
13 each conversation.
14 The witness noted that it was the operators' job to tape the
15 conversations, listen back to them, and write down only what was recorded
16 into the note-books. If necessary, they would pause, rewind, and listen
17 to a given recording repeatedly in order to accomplish this.
18 Mr. President, that concludes my 92 ter summary, and I have some
19 questions to put to the witness, if I may.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Go ahead, please.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: What I'd like to do is I'd like to hand the
22 witness a copy of this booklet of intercepts.
23 Q. Witness, I'd like to ask you: Were you shown a packet of
24 19 intercepts from July 1995, prior to your testimony here today, similar
25 to the one that you have in front of you?
1 A. Yes, I was.
2 Q. And did you have an opportunity to examine the original
3 note-books containing the intercepts contained in the package?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. And in the packet of intercepts that you examined, and the one in
6 front of you, can you tell us, were the handwritten intercepts that are
7 contained in the packet written by you? Were they in your handwriting?
8 A. Yes, they were.
9 Q. And did you write down the intercepts contained in the packet
10 during the course and scope of your duties and responsibilities as an
11 intercept operator?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. And did you write down the intercepts that are listed and
14 contained in that packet in 1995?
15 A. Yes, I did.
16 Q. Generally speaking, after you made a handwritten transcript of a
17 given conversation, were the note-book entries that you made typed up?
18 A. Yes, they were.
19 Q. And how long, approximately, after your note-book entries were
20 written down were they typed up? Was it immediate, was it the same day,
21 was it several days later? If you could just tell us briefly.
22 A. If the intercepted conversations were urgent, if they were of
23 particular interest and content, such conversations were sent on
24 immediately and transcribed immediately. If a particular conversation
25 was not urgent, it would be typed out and transcribed at the end of the
1 day. The transcription was done by my superior and his colleague.
2 Q. Have you had an opportunity to compare the 19 handwritten
3 intercepts contained in the packet to typewritten transcripts?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And can you confirm that your handwritten transcriptions are
6 reflected in the typewritten transcripts?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What I'd like you to do, if you can, is just to look through this
9 packet that I've handed you and see if it corresponds to the document
10 that I showed you just the other day, so that you can tell the
11 Trial Chamber whether what you have in front of you contains your
12 handwritten intercepts. You should be able to find handwritten
13 transcripts underneath every tab in the note-book, so just take a look at
14 it, and let me know if you see a document in there that -- well, let me
15 know if you recognise your handwriting for every tab.
16 A. Yes. Since I've already had an opportunity to review this
17 material, I can confirm that all of it is mine. However, when it comes
18 to the transcript of one of my intercepted conversations, since the
19 transcript was not done in the original -- actually, the transcript is
20 not the original. The number is 7. The frequency is 259.675,
21 1749 hours, and the participants were Toso and the other was an unknown
23 Q. Are you referring to tab number 7?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. We'll discuss that in just a little bit. So with respect
1 to the remaining documents -- well, first of all, can you confirm that
2 tab number 7 is in your handwriting?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And with respect to the remaining documents in this packet, can
5 you confirm that those are in your handwriting as well?
6 A. Yes, and I know because I've already had an opportunity to review
7 all these documents, so I'm sure that they are mine.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right.
9 With that, Mr. President, I would like to tender into evidence
10 all of these documents. I understand that some of them have been --
11 they've all been pre-marked, so I would like to move them into evidence.
12 I can provide you with the numbers. It's P350 through P361, and then
13 P365 through P371.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: They have all been admitted into evidence in the
15 Popovic trial, together with the transcript?
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: The last series that I gave you, P365 through
17 P371, are new documents. They were not admitted in the Popovic trial.
18 But the first series from P350 to P361 were all admitted in Popovic.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The first series will be received because they
20 are related to the Popovic transcript, P350 to P361. Do you intend to
21 tender them under seal or is it not necessary?
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President. It is necessary because the
23 print-outs contain the name of the location, and, indeed, I think some of
24 the pages of the handwritten documents reflect the initials of other
25 operators, and that might be an issue as well.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: They will be received under seal.
2 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye --
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: To clarify the situation, Madam Registrar will
6 provide a list, a memorandum, for everybody. The handwritten transcripts
7 will be public because they don't contain the name of the witness, but --
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's correct, they don't.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But as we agreed earlier, under the same number
10 with A, B, C, we will have the transcript and the translation attached to
11 that, but with the same number and under seal.
12 The last series was not tendered with this witness in Popovic,
13 but will be received in the same manner, as you have shown them to the
14 witness and he has identified them as his handwritings.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please carry on.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.
18 Q. Witness, what I wanted to ask you was: Do you have a present
19 recollection of the facts and circumstances concerning these
20 19 intercepts generally?
21 A. Look here, a number of years have elapsed since I discharged
22 those duties. I remember doing them. These are documents in my
23 handwriting. And I worked even harder than I should because I wanted to
24 stay in the job. I did not want to go back to the front-line from which
25 I had joined the service. I don't know how this sounded, but that's how
1 it was. And, furthermore, I remember one particular conversation. It
2 sticks in my memory. I can still remember it, and I often think of it.
3 Q. All right. Thank you for that, Witness.
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: If I could have 65 ter -- I guess it's an
5 exhibit number now. It's -- just a moment. P352 in e-court, please. A,
6 please, the handwritten.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In which tab?
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm very sorry, Mr. President. It's tab 3.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE:
11 Q. Witness, what I'm showing you is an intercept that's in tab 3 of
12 the booklet you have in front of you there, and it's dated 17 July 1995,
13 at 950 hours. It refers to Pandurevic, and it talks about an estimate of
14 about 5.000 people. And Pandurevic says:
15 "There are hundreds of them dead. You can't kill them all,
16 there's so many of them."
17 Do you have any recollection of this particular intercept?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you tell us what you remember about it?
20 A. I remember the way they mentioned roughly 5.000 people who were
21 on the move, that they were falling like flies and still they were human
22 beings. I called my colleagues. I wanted them to be present while I
23 listened to that conversation, because I was really impressed. It was a
24 very heavy moment, and I still remember that conversation to this very
1 Q. What I can observe from the handwritten document here is that
2 there does not appear to be any letter or person attributed to the
3 remarks that are made. In line 1, where it refers to "neutralising a lot
4 of them yesterday" and "hammering away with artillery," there's no
5 indication of X or Y, and I wondered if you could explain why that is.
6 A. I don't know who was the person talking. I don't remember. But
7 since there is no designation, there is no first letter, that means that
8 no names were mentioned during the conversation. It looked more like two
9 people talking about what had happened earlier that day. That was the
10 way we saw it. I don't know who those people were. In any case, they
11 were well informed, they were on top of things.
12 Q. And if I could show you part B of this intercept. This is the
13 printed-out version. Yes, 3031B, please. I'm sorry, it's 352, P352B.
14 And you will see it on the left side of your screen, and here we
15 have an indication of -- rather, a designation of the speaker there as X.
16 I think that's the case with the note-book, except for the bad photocopy.
17 But here you see X and only X speaking. Can you tell us what that means
18 and why that's the case?
19 A. This means that we could only hear that one participant. The
20 other was not audible.
21 Q. And is that something that occurred with some regularity during
22 the course of your work as an intercept operator or is that something
23 very unusual, that only one participant can be heard, while another could
25 A. This happened quite often. It occurred with some regularity.
1 And when we heard both interlocutors, we noted that, and you will see it
2 in my reports on intercepted conversation. I noted where there were
3 several interlocutors who identified themselves during the conversation.
4 They identified themselves by their names, and we put those names where
5 they belonged. But if they didn't introduce themselves, they would be
6 designated as persons X/Y, although there were some other symbols we
7 used, but most commonly we used X/Y. And when they identified
8 themselves, then they were designated by the first letter of their names,
9 and they would become identified interlocutors whose names appeared at
10 the beginning of the intercepted conversation.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay, thank you for that.
12 I understand it is the break time, Mr. President, and this is a
13 good place to stop. I do have a few more questions and documents I'd
14 like to show the witness, though, before -- when we get back.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
16 We must have the second break now, and we will resume at quarter
17 past 6.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 5.50 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 6.15 p.m.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye, please carry on.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
22 Q. Before we broke, Witness, you had mentioned that when individuals
23 didn't introduce themselves, that X and Y were commonly used, but there
24 were some other symbols that were also used. I wonder if you could just
25 tell us, briefly, what those symbols were.
1 A. X/Y, asterisk, question mark. As far as I can remember, those
2 were the symbols. I don't know if there were any others. We had not
3 received a very specific order as to how to mark unidentified persons, so
4 we chose those symbols for those participants in the conversations who
5 did not end up being identified.
6 Q. And were you able or allowed to engage in any type of analysis or
7 interpretation in order to arrive at the identity of a given participant
8 in an intercepted conversation?
9 A. Could you please repeat it? I didn't quite understand your
11 Q. Well, when somebody wasn't identified in a given conversation,
12 were you, as an operator, permitted to look at the context of the
13 conversation and the content of the conversation in order to try and
14 figure out who that person might be, even though they are not otherwise
15 identified? Were you allowed to do that?
16 A. It happened very rarely. We didn't do it on our own. We did not
17 attempt to guess the participant's name and put it down on paper if we
18 were not absolutely sure. In that case, we would inform our commander
19 and asked him to join us in listening and help us with the
20 identification, especially if that particular conversation was a very
21 important one.
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. If I could show the witness, please,
23 P359 for just a moment. And I'd like to show you P359A.
24 Mr. President, that's tab 8 in the booklet. I'm mistaken, I'm
25 sorry. It's tab 14 in the booklet. I think I have the right one,
1 actually. I do.
2 Q. If you look at the second entry in your note-book, and it reads:
3 "Listen." First of all, you can see that the conversation begins with:
4 "It's Tolimir, he's asking whether you'll be coming up -- you'll
5 be coming here."
6 And then in the second entry, it says:
7 "I won't be coming. Tell Dinko to be on standby with the unit.
8 They are not to move without my order."
9 Do you remember reviewing this particular intercept, and in
10 particular with respect to the reference to Dinko in this intercept?
11 A. Yes, I recall this intercept.
12 Q. And do you know who Dinko is or do you have an opinion as to who
13 Dinko is?
14 A. Well, I don't want to engage in any guess-work. I understood the
15 word to be "Dinko," but it could have been "Vinko," and that's why the
16 word is in brackets and there is a question mark next to it, and that's
17 how it was transcribed, I suppose. I left it to my superiors to make the
18 final judgement as to whether the word was "Dinko," "Vinko," or whether
19 it was somebody else. I suppose that there was a lot of background noise
20 when I listened to that part of the conversation, and the closest to what
21 I heard would be "Dinko." And that's why the word is in brackets with a
22 question mark next to the bracket.
23 Q. And were you aware of any VRS officer at the time, that is, in
24 July 1995, with the name of Vinko, with a V?
25 A. Yes, Vinko Pandurevic.
1 Q. But you didn't write that down in this particular intercept
2 because you couldn't determine whether you heard "Vinko" or "Dinko"; is
3 that fair to say?
4 A. Yes, yes, yes.
5 Q. That was a determination that you were not allowed to make, based
6 upon what you were able to hear; is that right?
7 A. When cases like this one happened, they happened mostly because
8 of the background noise, and one letter can make a huge difference. So
9 if things like that happened, then I would call my colleagues, and
10 vice versa, they would call me if they had such a case, and then we tried
11 to decipher the word or even whole sentences together.
12 How should I -- how can I explain? How should I -- when
13 something wasn't clear, we invested joint efforts. We listened and
14 listened again, over and over again, to such portions of conversations
15 and tried to make -- how shall I put it? We tried to decide what word
16 sounded the closest to what the interlocutors uttered at that moment, and
17 we would indicate that. The operators would indicate such places in
18 their note-books.
19 Q. And I'd like to show you P371A.
20 And while that's coming up, you said that operators would
21 indicate in their note-books, in some fashion, where there was some
22 difficulty in hearing or transcribing a given word of an intercepted
23 conversation. How would they do that? How would it be indicated in the
24 note-book? You've indicated in your case you used brackets. Was that
25 something that was prevailing at the southern facility, where you were?
1 A. Well, the customary practice was to put "inaudible,"
2 "intelligible," "unclear," different words, things like that.
3 Q. Thank you. We have now P371 in e-court, and I want to just draw
4 your attention to it. It's at tab 7 of the booklet. And what I would
5 like to do is draw your attention to the indication here. It looks like
6 it's about four lines or so into your intercept, and the intercept reads:
7 "Toso speaking.
8 "Just a moment, Toso.
9 "Hello, Toso?"
10 And then it says: "I'm listening."
11 A. [In English] Please, please.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What's the problem?
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think his booklet has fallen apart.
14 Q. You can look on the screen. It's in e-court, so you can look on
15 the screen, sir, and you can -- you should be able to see it. If you
16 need us to blow it up, we can do that too. Plus I have another one.
17 Sir, you can see this one, I suppose.
18 All right. I think you've got it now in front of you. It's at
19 1749 is the time, 20th of July. And about four lines into the intercept,
20 there's a portion of it where you've indicated "inaudible." That line
22 "The one down there rang me and asked one," and then it says
23 "inaudible," "French. They need to go there. He is the deputy commander
24 of the Sarajevo
25 And what I'd like to do is -- first of all, does that accurately
1 reflect what's in your note-book or in the note-book?
2 A. [Interpretation] "The person down there called me,"
3 "intelligible." The French were supposed to come, yes.
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. I'd like to go to P371B. This is
5 the print-out. And for the Court, I think you'll find that on the page
6 just following the handwritten text. It's on the very last page of the
7 tab in B/C/S.
8 Q. And in this print-out, you can see that that very same line reads
9 as follows:
10 "The one down there rang me and asked one," and then in brackets
11 it says "(the name of a UN member unintelligible) they need to go there,
12 he is the deputy commander of the Sarajevo Sector."
13 And that you can see clearly is different than what you have in
14 your note-book, which doesn't mention "the name of a UN member
15 unintelligible" in it. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber how this
16 process would occur when a note-book is transcribed -- I should say taken
17 in to be typed up or a given intercept is taken in to be typed up?
18 A. It was my task to record intercepts, listen to them, and
19 transcribe them. My unit commander worked on transcriptions as well,
20 including another work-mate of mine. As far as I recall, when we
21 listened to conversations in parts which were unintelligible, there were
22 always several of us there to try to be as accurate as possible in terms
23 of what was actually said.
24 Q. And so was this the result of a process where you worked together
25 with other members of the unit in order to arrive at what would be
1 appropriate to put in the typewritten version of this intercept?
2 A. Probably, yes. I don't recall this, specifically, but it
3 happened on occasion; not frequently, but it did happen.
4 Q. And do you know who this Toso that's referred to in this
5 intercept is?
6 A. I don't.
7 Q. In your experience as an intercept operator, did VRS officers use
8 or go by nicknames?
9 A. Yes, yes, it was customary. They addressed each other with
10 nicknames frequently.
11 Q. And is the name Toso here a nickname, if you know?
12 A. It probably is, because the person introducing himself says, It's
13 Toso here.
14 Q. As a nickname, do you know which VRS officer that it belongs to
15 or refers to?
16 A. Krstic's nickname was Krle; Pandurevic's was Pandur; Popovic's
17 was Pop.
18 Q. I take it, then, you don't know which VRS officer this nickname
19 Toso refers to.
20 A. I heard the nickname several times, but I really can't recall.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. If I could show you P360A, please.
22 That's going to be at tab 15.
23 Q. All right. This is another intercept. I think you have it up on
24 the screen now. It's dated 25 July, and the time of it is 0709 hours.
25 And in this intercept, we have a conversation where X is requesting an
1 escort vehicle with three soldiers from one Lieutenant Matic. And you
2 can see further down, directing Ljubo, who is a participant in this
3 conversation, to find Colonel Golic. X tells Ljubo to check with Krstic.
4 And in the middle of the screen, you will see it reads:
5 "Okay, and where is this Golic?"
6 And X says:
7 "He should be somewhere with Krstic. Check with Pop ..."
8 Can you tell us who the Pop is that's referred to in this
10 A. Let me find it.
11 Q. It will be on the second page in the B/C/S. It's an ERN ending
12 417 in B/C/S.
13 A. Pop, Popovic, Colonel Popovic. That was his nickname. It was
14 used frequently. They had no priests.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: "Pop" in B/C/S means
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They simply had the nicknames Pop,
18 Krle. Jevdjevic's nickname was Jevdjo, and there was another person I
19 mentioned a moment ago.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE:
21 Q. You mentioned a Krle, and you can see "Krle" here also in the
22 same sentence. In English, it reads:
23 "Check with Pop, he knows where he is, and he's somewhere with
25 Can you tell us who that refers to?
1 A. You mean the person referred to in the conversation?
2 Q. Yes. In your note-book, you've written down -- it says "Krleta,"
3 I think, and you can see it in the third entry on the page in front of
4 you ending -- with the ERN ending 417. It's right above the word --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. It's right above the word "Milicicen" [phoen]. Do you --
7 and who does that refer to? If you know.
8 A. Krstic. "Krle" was Krstic's nickname. It was used frequently.
9 Q. Is that General Krstic?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. All right. A couple of more questions, and then we'll be
13 Now, when these handwritten transcripts were typed up, were they
14 sent anywhere?
15 A. Note-books would be taken by my unit commander, and he would
16 probably pass it on to his superiors, although I didn't inquire about
17 that. This was no job of mine.
18 Q. Do you know how this was done, whether this was done using a
19 courier, or if it was done electronically, or some other means?
20 A. You're asking me about the note-books?
21 Q. I'm asking you how the typewritten -- typewritten transcripts of
22 the note-book entries, what was done with them? That's what I'd like to
23 know. Were they sent on someplace on else, were they stored in the site?
24 If you know, it would be helpful if you could tell the Trial Chamber.
25 A. I apologise. I do not understand again. Do you mean the
1 transcripts or the tapes?
2 Q. When you took your note-book to the typist, what did the typist
3 do with it?
4 A. He would return the note-book to us so that we could work on. As
5 I said, if the information concerned was very important, it would be
6 typed out immediately, and we used other note-books to take our notes in
7 the meantime. The colleagues who worked on transcriptions were there to
8 assess whether a particular conversation was urgent or not. If it was
9 urgent, they would type it up immediately. So they would return the same
10 note-books to us until they were used up, and such full note-books would
11 then be taken by the unit commander. And I don't know what he did with
12 them later on.
13 Q. What was done, in particular, with the typed material? When you
14 say it was typed up, what happened to the material that was typed up?
15 That's my question, if you know.
16 A. I have no idea. It was no job of mine to inquire. I didn't
17 participate in it.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much. Witness, I have no further
20 Thank you, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.
22 Mr. Tolimir, do you have cross-examination?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I do have
24 questions, by your leave, although I won't be able to finish in
25 five minutes. Not even e-court documents could be put up in that short a
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have a little bit more, 18 minutes left, and
3 I think we should use this time.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We
5 stopped working yesterday at quarter to 7.00. That is why I thought it
6 would be the same today. Thank you.
7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sorry. We were sitting in the morning. That's
9 the difference.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Then it was the time before that.
11 It's not important, in any case. My apologies.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please go ahead.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, while we're waiting for your statement,
16 P394, I'd like to ask you something else. Sorry, it's P349.
17 Witness, I will not mention your name, and we won't go into
18 private session for the sake of time. Tell me this: Were you mobilised
19 into the brigade referred to in your statement after 1992, and what tasks
20 did you have in that brigade before becoming an intercept operator?
21 It's page 2 in e-court, but I won't ask for it to be displayed
22 because the name of the unit is mentioned, and we would need to go into
23 private session for that, which would require time.
24 A. I was mobilised into the 121st Mountain Brigade in Kladanj.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you can display every page, it will
1 not be broadcast.
2 You may continue.
3 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Q. Were you mobilised into the unit referred to or did you
6 A. I was mobilised.
7 Q. Did you volunteer to be put on the intercept unit?
8 A. I did not understand.
9 Q. Did you volunteer to join the intercept unit?
10 A. I was mobilised into that unit. It was my military specialist
11 [as interpreted]. I was a signalsman in the JNA.
12 Q. Did you also volunteer to be moved from the town where you
13 resided to the location where you worked as the operator at the southern
15 A. Please repeat your question.
16 Q. Thank you, Witness. I have no further questions.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Presiding Judge, I will waste
18 my time putting the same question time and again, so I'd rather stop. I
19 asked him whether he volunteered to be moved from his town to the
20 location where he worked, and I won't mention the name of his town
21 because he's a protected witness.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In case I wasn't sufficiently
23 clear, I was mobilised into the 121st Mountain Brigade, Kladanj, and
24 later on I was transferred to this -- well, I was mobilised.
25 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 Q. Did you undergo any security or intelligence checks and training
2 before being moved to the southern site, where you worked as the
3 intercept operator?
4 A. In terms of preparations, my unit commander showed me what and
5 how to do things.
6 Q. Thank you. Did you receive the note-books immediately, and did
7 you use such note-books throughout the time you intercepted
9 A. I don't remember. I remember we had note-books.
10 Q. Thank you. Did you ever have to buy your own note-books or did
11 you always receive them from your unit commander?
12 A. Well, regarding that, we even brought note-books from home,
13 because at that time we didn't even have paper.
14 Q. Well, I'm asking you whether you bought them yourself or whether
15 you brought them in.
16 A. Well, some people brought them from back home, and at a certain
17 point in time note-books began arriving from our superiors.
18 Q. Thank you. How far was the closest shop to the location where
19 you worked?
20 A. Twenty-five kilometres --
21 Q. Thank you.
22 A. -- more or less.
23 Q. Could you trade flour for note-books and take it all
24 25 kilometres away to the nearby settlement?
25 A. Well, I told you what I can recall. At first, we brought our own
1 note-books so as to have something to write on.
2 Q. Thank you. How much time did you require to transcribe -- or,
3 rather, to make the handwritten notes in your note-books for a single
5 A. Well, it all depended on the length of the conversation in
7 Q. Thank you. Did you send the note-books or did you send
8 transcribed, typed-up conversations?
9 A. It was my job to write everything into a note-book, having
10 recorded it first. Then I would have to listen to them and write them
11 down. We would then hand over the note-books to our unit commander, who
12 worked on transcription, and he would be better placed to clarify it
14 Q. Thank you. We'll ask him when he gets here. Did you personally
15 burn the note-books or not?
16 A. I don't remember.
17 Q. Thank you. What was the role of the unit commander in deciding
18 what would be the closest or the most accurate version of a certain
19 conversation? This is something you have just discussed with the
21 A. Anything that was unclear required his presence and the presence
22 of other colleagues. We all consulted each other, when we listened to
23 the same conversation up to 20 times sometimes, and then it would be up
24 to the unit commander to have a final say. That's all I can tell you
25 about that.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
2 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Did the unit commander make such calls based on his own
4 assessment or based on something else?
5 A. For the most part, calls were made jointly. The majority of
6 colleagues would opt for a certain option.
7 Q. Thank you. Did you discuss amongst yourselves what the questions
8 put by the Prosecutor here could be, since we only touched upon that?
9 A. No, we did not discuss any particular questions. I wanted to
10 cite an example of something I had said before.
11 Q. The Prosecutor said that you were going to get to it later, and
12 then you said that you can recollect that rather well. It's in the
13 transcript. It had to do with the 5.000 people who set out to break
14 through. Do you recall that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And then you were interrupted by the Prosecutor, who said that
17 you will eventually get to that.
18 A. The Prosecutor asked me whether there was a particular
19 conversation that remains etched in my memory. During his
20 examination-in-chief, I said there was a particular conversation.
21 Q. Do you mean he asked you that here, with all of us present, or
22 during proofing?
23 A. In proofing.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
25 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
1 Q. I won't ask you about the contents of the conversations you
2 commented upon. I only wanted to ask you this: Did you make the
3 selection of the intercepts to be presented here, or was it done by your
4 commander, or perhaps by the Prosecutor?
5 A. Please clarify. Apologies.
6 Q. Did you make the selection of the 19 intercepts in the booklet,
7 or was it done by your commander, or perhaps by the Prosecutor's Office?
8 A. The Prosecutor's Office.
9 Q. Were all these conversations in the same note-book or not?
10 A. I don't remember. I don't think so, though. There were several
12 Q. Could it be that there were conversations in a note-book taken
13 down by several people?
14 A. Yes, certainly, in cases where we changed shifts.
15 Q. Did this occur because it took a certain period of time to
16 process all that material or was there another reason?
17 A. Please clarify.
18 Q. Did several operators process the same conversation simply
19 because it required a certain amount of time to process it due to a
20 lengthy conversation?
21 A. I didn't understand yet again.
22 Q. You said that there were conversations which were recorded by two
23 people. One would start, the second would finish; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Why was it done? Was it done because of the lengths of the
1 shifts, and when the shifts ended, or because of the length of the
2 conversation and how long it took to process one conversation?
3 A. Look here, whatever I was in the middle of recording, I had to
4 finish it, irrespective of whether my shift finished or not. And then my
5 colleague would come and would continue recording and transcribing. And
6 it all -- it did not really depend on how long the conversation was.
7 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us whether you recognised the voices
8 of the VRS officers?
9 A. At the time, I recognised some of the modulations, I recognised
10 some of their voices, but now I don't recall any of them. I could tell
11 them apart by the modulations.
12 Q. Thank you. Were you ever asked by your commander or by the
13 Prosecution to assign some of the voices to some persons although you
14 were not sure?
15 A. It was never requested from me. I don't know if it was ever
16 requested from the squad commander, who transcribed the conversations.
17 How -- what orders he received from his superiors, I don't know.
18 Q. I asked this because the Prosecution showed you a telegram where
19 a person is mentioned, although he was not a participant in the
20 conversation. For example, Toso was mentioned. Do you remember?
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 Q. Did anybody ask you to assign that part of the conversation to a
23 person or did somebody request that from your commander?
24 A. No, there was no pressure put on me. I just recorded things as I
25 heard them. I did not try to guess who Toso was, did I?
1 Q. Thank you. I'm asking you -- I don't know what you put. I did
2 not record the conversation. I just read what the Prosecutor showed us
4 A. I recorded things as I heard them.
5 Q. Thank you, thank you. You said here that you thought that you
6 heard "Vinko" or "Dinko." You're still not sure what you heard, and is
7 that why you recorded things the way you did?
8 A. Absolutely, yes. "Dinko," I believe that there was a lot of
9 background noise.
10 Q. Thank you. One more question. In the vicinity of southern site,
11 was there a commander by the name of Dinko? Thank you.
12 A. In our site, in our location?
13 Q. Thank you. In the town closest to southern site, did you ever
14 hear of an officer by the name of Dinko?
15 A. No, I didn't. I don't remember. I haven't a clue.
16 Q. Thank you. Did you ever record a conversation that was relative
17 to the place where you worked, which was southern site, and the units
18 that surrounded it?
19 A. I did not understand you.
20 Q. In your note-books, did you ever record a conversation regarding
21 the units or the activities of the military forces that threatened the
22 facility where you worked, the southern site, or its immediate
24 A. I don't remember. I really can't remember now.
25 Q. In 1995, did you record anything but the conversations involving
1 the VRS that are illustrated by the 19 transcripts that we've seen here
2 in the courtroom?
3 A. I don't know, I haven't a clue. I don't remember.
4 Q. Could you be able to say something based on the note-books that
5 were given to you to recognise?
6 A. In the material that you have in front of me and that I -- that
7 you have in front of you and I have in front of me, that's just one part
8 of the conversations that I recorded.
9 Q. Do you recall any conversation involving two participants that
10 you recorded and that did not concern Srebrenica?
11 A. Do I remember what? Conversations involving people, who?
12 Q. Do you recall any conversations that you recorded that did not
13 concern Srebrenica in the course of 1995? Thank you.
14 A. Yes, yes. I don't remember them, but there were a number of
15 them. I don't remember any specific ones.
16 Q. You don't remember the contents of any such conversation?
17 A. I am unemployed. I prayed to God for that war to be over. I
18 tried to push everything behind me. I don't know if you can appreciate
19 what I'm saying. So I do not remember.
20 Q. Thank you. God bless you. May God be with you on the way back
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I've finished my examination,
23 Mr. President. I have no further questions for this witness. Thank you
24 for all the interpreters and everybody who has helped me in the course of
25 my examination. Thank you very much for everybody's patience.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir, for your very
2 effective and short cross-examination.
3 Mr. Vanderpuye, do you have re-examination?
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: No, Mr. President, I don't.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You will be pleased to hear that, unexpectedly,
6 you are released now, and you may return to your normal activities.
7 Thank you for your attendance here and your assistance you were able to
8 give the Chamber and the parties. Thank you very much again.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to thank you,
10 Your Honours. It has been my honour to be here and give my testimony.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. The Court Officer will assist you
12 when we rise. Please stay there for a moment. Thank you very much.
13 We adjourn now and resume tomorrow at 2.15 in the afternoon.
14 [The witness withdrew]
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.
16 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 10th day of June,
17 2010, at 2.15 p.m.