Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 2612

 1                           Thursday, 10 June 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom.

 6             May I ask this day for the appearances.  I see a new face on the

 7     bench for the Prosecution.

 8             MS. CHITTENDEN:  That's right.

 9             Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours.  Good afternoon,

10     everyone in the courtroom.

11             My name is Caitlin Chittenden.  I'll be questioning the first

12     witness in court today on behalf of the OTP.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

14             MS. CHITTENDEN:  So the first witness we have today is

15     Witness 114, who will also be known as the pseudonym PW-047.  And he'll

16     be testifying with face distortion, please.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

18             The witness may be brought in.

19             While the witness is being brought in, Madam Registrar could read

20     into the record information related to two exhibits received yesterday.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22             Exhibits P365B and Exhibit P368B, tendered through

23     Witness PW-048, are marked for identification, pending translation.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

25                           [The witness entered court]

Page 2613

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon, sir.  Please wait a moment so the

 2     windows can be opened again.

 3             Good afternoon again, sir.

 4             Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the card which is

 5     shown to you now.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 7     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 8                           WITNESS:  PW-047

 9                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down.

11             As you know, there are protective measures in place for you, and

12     the Prosecution has some questions for you.

13                           Examination by Ms. Chittenden:

14        Q.   Good afternoon, Witness.

15        A.   Good afternoon.

16        Q.   We met on Tuesday.  My name is Caitlin Chittenden, and I'll be

17     asking you some questions today on behalf of the Office of the

18     Prosecutor.

19             MS. CHITTENDEN:  Please, could we have P405 in e-court.

20        Q.   Witness, you'll see something coming up on the screen in front of

21     you now.  Please, could you read it to yourself and confirm that your

22     name is written next to "PW-047."

23        A.   Yes, the information is correct.

24             MS. CHITTENDEN:  Your Honours, I would like to tender this into

25     evidence as an exhibit under seal.

Page 2614

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received under seal.

 2             MS. CHITTENDEN:

 3        Q.   Witness, do you recall testifying in the case of Prosecutor

 4     versus Popovic on 24 January 2007?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.

 6        Q.   Was your testimony at that time truthful and accurate?

 7        A.   Yes, it was.

 8        Q.   Have you had the opportunity to listen to your Popovic testimony

 9     again before coming here today?

10        A.   Yes, I have, a few days ago.

11        Q.   If you were asked the same questions again in court today, would

12     you answer in the same way?

13        A.   Yes, in full.

14             MS. CHITTENDEN:  Your Honours, at this time I would like to offer

15     into evidence the witness's testimony in the Popovic case.  It is P403,

16     which should be admitted under seal.  And we also have 404, which is the

17     public version.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received, the first under seal.

19             MS. CHITTENDEN:  Your Honours, at this time I would also like to

20     offer into evidence the four exhibits admitted in conjunction with this

21     witness's testimony in the Popovic case.  The first exhibit I would like

22     to offer is P399, under seal.  This is the witness's statement to the OTP

23     on 24 January 2007, and this statement was admitted in Popovic as the

24     underlying Rule 92 ter statement.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

Page 2615

 1             MS. CHITTENDEN:  At this time, I would also like to offer into

 2     evidence the three intercepts identified by the witness in his Popovic

 3     testimony and which were admitted as exhibits through him in that case.

 4     For each intercept, there's a handwritten version from the note-book and

 5     a typewritten print-out version of the intercept.  And if I may, I'll

 6     just read out the P numbers for the following three intercepts.  The

 7     first one is P400A, which is the B/C/S note-book version and the

 8     corresponding English translation.  Do you want me to read them out in a

 9     list?

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, the whole list, please.

11             MS. CHITTENDEN:  And P400B, which is the print-out version.  Then

12     we have P401A, the note-book version; P401B, the print-out version;

13     P402A, the note-book version; and finally, P402B, the print-out version.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The exhibits will be received, the confidential

15     ones under seal.

16             MS. CHITTENDEN:  That's correct.  Thank you very much.

17             Your Honours, I would now like to read a short summary of the

18     witness's testimony in Popovic.

19             Witness, after I read out the summary, I'll just have a few

20     further questions for you.

21             Your Honours, if we may move into private session for a moment,

22     please.

23                           [Private session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2616

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session.

18             MS. CHITTENDEN:  At the southern site, the witness worked

19     10-day shifts.  He described the procedure he used to intercept, record,

20     and transcribe radio communications.

21             When transcribing an intercept, the witness would often consult

22     his colleagues if something on the tape was unclear.  Another person

23     would then type out his handwritten transcription of the conversation,

24     after which the typed version of the intercept would be encrypted --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Could you please slow down for the

Page 2617

 1     interpretation.

 2             MS. CHITTENDEN:  ... would be encrypted and sent out.

 3             On a few occasions, the witness typed up his handwritten

 4     transcriptions himself, but he did not transmit reports.

 5             During his 2007 OTP interview, the witness reviewed photocopies

 6     of three handwritten intercepts.  For the record, these are the

 7     intercepts we just tendered with the witness's statement as P400A, P401A,

 8     and P402A.  The witness confirmed that he was the operator who

 9     intercepted, recorded, and transcribed those three intercepts.

10             The witness also reviewed three typewritten print-outs of the

11     intercepts.  For the record, these are the intercepts we just tendered as

12     Exhibits 400B, 401B, and 402B.  The witness confirmed that those

13     print-outs contained the same conversations as the three intercepts he

14     previously confirmed taking by hand.

15             The witness noted that in one of his intercepts, which is

16     Exhibit P401A, taken at 949 hours on 20 July 1995, he wrote in the

17     note-book that Cerovic, one of the speakers, was a colonel or

18     lieutenant-colonel, but in the print-out version of this intercept

19     Cerovic is identified as a colonel.

20             The witness does not specifically recall whether he made that

21     change in consultation with his colleagues or whether the typist made the

22     change alone.

23             The witness stated that while there are one or two other minor

24     differences between the handwritten and the typed versions, none of those

25     differences changes the meaning of the intercept.

Page 2618

 1             That concludes my summary.

 2             Your Honours, I now have a few questions to ask the witness, if I

 3     may.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Go ahead, please.

 5             MS. CHITTENDEN:  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But please speak slowly.

 7             MS. CHITTENDEN:

 8        Q.   Witness, I would like to show you a booklet of three intercepts

 9     that we've compiled.  For the record, these are P400A and B, P401A and B,

10     and P402A and B.

11             MS. CHITTENDEN:  Please, could I ask for the assistance of the

12     Court Usher just to hand this book to the witness.

13        Q.   Witness, can you take a moment to look through this booklet, and

14     let me know whether you recognise your handwriting on the handwritten

15     versions of these intercepts.

16        A.   Yes, this is my handwriting.

17        Q.   Witness, were you the operator who recorded and transcribed these

18     three intercepted conversations?

19        A.   Yes, I was.

20        Q.   Did you review these three intercepts before you testified in the

21     Popovic case?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Did you review them again before your testimony today?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Have you also recently reviewed the original note-books

Page 2619

 1     containing those three intercepts?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And do the copies of those three intercepts that you have in the

 4     booklet conform to the original note-books that you reviewed?

 5        A.   Yes, they do.

 6        Q.   Witness, about how long after you intercepted and recorded a

 7     conversation on the tape would you transcribe that conversation into the

 8     note-book?

 9        A.   We would take down shorter intercepts immediately and copied them

10     into note-books, unless there was another conversation on the same

11     frequency.  If they followed each other closely, we would record both.

12     And once all activity ceased on that particular channel, we would then

13     note down both conversations into our note-books.

14        Q.   Would you say that you recorded into the note-books the

15     conversation within 24 hours, say?

16        A.   Yes.  Some of them we even recorded in the note-books

17     immediately.  Let me clarify.  If there was no further activity on that

18     same frequency, we would take the tape, immediately listen to it, and

19     note it down into the note-books.

20        Q.   So with respect to the three intercepts in the booklet in front

21     of you that you intercepted on 17, 20, and 22 July, can you attest to the

22     Trial Chamber that you transcribed these conversations into the

23     note-books within 24 hours of recording them?

24        A.   Yes, I can.

25        Q.   And were the original note-books that you inspected with me on

Page 2620

 1     Tuesday the same original note-books that you recorded these

 2     conversations in during July 1995?

 3        A.   Yes, they are.

 4             MS. CHITTENDEN:  Your Honours, I also have the three original

 5     note-books available with me in the courtroom today, should Your Honours

 6     or the accused wish to inspect them.

 7        Q.   Witness, can you please turn to tab 2 in the booklet in front of

 8     you.

 9             MS. CHITTENDEN:  And this is Exhibit P401A, if we can also have

10     that in e-court, please.

11        Q.   Witness, if you can turn to the handwritten version, or you can

12     look on the screen in front of you, you will see underneath

13     "Colonel Cerovic" is written "Lieutenant-Colonel "in brackets.  Can you

14     tell the Trial Chamber why you wrote this in brackets in this instance?

15        A.   Because once listening to a tape, you write things down

16     immediately, but sometimes frequency modulations can slightly vary and it

17     can make you doubtful as to whether what was uttered was

18     "lieutenant-colonel" or "colonel," since the words are rather similar.

19     However, from our previous knowledge, we knew that this was

20     Colonel Cerovic, but we always left room for uncertainty.  We usually did

21     not write things down unless we were certain.

22        Q.   But, Witness, at the time that you were listening to the

23     recording and transcribing it, did you -- does this mean that you didn't

24     hear the rank of Cerovic clearly at the time you were transcribing?

25        A.   One could say so.  We couldn't hear the whole of the conversation

Page 2621

 1     completely clearly.  We listened to two interlocutors, and sometimes they

 2     overlapped.  And on occasion, you cannot hear things the best way

 3     possible.  They didn't necessarily communicate clearly.  For example, in

 4     this conversation, you can hear one of the people saying, Hello, sir, and

 5     then it is immediately followed by something which resembled either,

 6     Colonel, or, Lieutenant-colonel.

 7        Q.   But, Witness, did you ever write something down of which you were

 8     uncertain without recording it in some way?

 9        A.   Well, we can't say that we weren't certain about this, but we did

10     have a slight reservation.  The audiotape has to be reflected as

11     accurately as possible on paper, but still there is a small hedge that

12     you have to allow for, because it is then forwarded to other instances

13     and they can verify that.  In this case, we did note down that it was

14     Colonel Cerovic, but just in case we put another thing in brackets.

15     However, we always wrote down only what we could hear, and the words on

16     paper reflect what we could hear on the tapes.

17        Q.   And is this generally how you would denote something you were

18     uncertain of, by using brackets?

19        A.   I don't understand.  What do you mean when you say "generally"?

20        Q.   If when you were listening to a recording of a conversation, if

21     you weren't certain of what you heard, would you put brackets around what

22     you think it was?

23        A.   If we couldn't hear them, we would place three dots, for the most

24     part.  If we were uncertain, then we inserted brackets.

25        Q.   And if you're uncertain of something, did you also consult your

Page 2622

 1     colleagues?

 2        A.   Yes, I did.  All of the work was done in a single room, where we

 3     worked jointly, more or less.  We would work together while listening to

 4     the tapes and noting down.  We also always required assistance from

 5     either our commander or another work-mate who happened to be there at the

 6     time.

 7        Q.   Witness, could you please now turn over a couple of pages in that

 8     book, still behind tab 2.

 9             MS. CHITTENDEN:  In e-court, it's P401B, please.

10        Q.   You can also look at it on the screen.  So this is the print-out

11     version, 401B.

12        A.   Yes.

13             MS. CHITTENDEN:  If we can also have that in e-court, please.

14     Thank you.  And it should have a corresponding English.  Thank you.

15        Q.   Witness, in your 2007 statement, you noted that in this printed

16     version of the intercept which we're looking at now, Cerovic is

17     identified as a colonel.  But as we've just seen and talked about, in the

18     handwritten version Cerovic is identified as either a colonel or a

19     lieutenant-colonel.

20             Witness, do you have any explanation as to why there is this

21     difference between the printed and the handwritten versions?

22        A.   When transcription is being done of an audio-recording, you write

23     things down the way you hear them.  However, in the next phase it had to

24     be typed up and sent following encryption.  The principal operator or the

25     commander, whomever happened to be on duty that day, typed up the final

Page 2623

 1     report.

 2             Colonel Cerovic was someone we had known from before, so the

 3     commander or the operator inserted the word "Colonel."  They were

 4     familiar with it, and they knew whether a person was a colonel or a

 5     lieutenant-colonel, and this is why in this report it is stated that he

 6     was a colonel.

 7        Q.   But, Witness, did you engage in any analysis or interpretation of

 8     intercepts yourself?

 9        A.   What do you mean, "analysis or interpretation"?  We wrote them

10     down, and then we would read it out loud to the commander or the operator

11     while they were typing it up and encrypting it.  We used Paket

12     communication to send it on to our command.

13        Q.   So, Witness, you wrote down only what you heard?

14        A.   Yes.

15             MS. CHITTENDEN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

16             Thank you, Witness.  I have no further questions.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

18             Witness, you know now Mr. Tolimir has the right to cross-examine

19     you.

20             Mr. Tolimir.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

22             May God's peace be with this house.

23             I would like to greet the witness and everybody else in the

24     courtroom.

25                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

Page 2624

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Witness, in your statement --

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the statement please be shown

 3     on the screen.  The number is P399.

 4             Could we please see page 2.  I'm interested in paragraph 4.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   You see what you stated in item 4?  In item 4, you stated that

 7     with a group which is mentioned in here, from the beginning of 1995 to

 8     October 1995, you left the unit for health reasons, but you did not state

 9     whether before 1995 you worked with that group.

10        A.   No, I didn't work with that group until 1995.

11        Q.   Thank you.  In your statement, you also stated that you were sent

12     to serve in the Unit for Anti-Electronic Activities?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Who was it who sent you to serve in that unit?  Thank you.

15        A.   In the 1992, for health reasons I left the combat units of the

16     BiH Army.  Towards the end of 1994 and the beginning of 1995, the

17     military structures engaged me.  They asked me to join that unit; to be

18     more precise, to the element of that unit that was deployed on

19    (redacted)

20        Q.   Thank you.  Did you have the necessary qualifications to carry

21     out the tasks required from you in that unit?  Thank you.

22        A.   Those are --

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before you answer, Ms. Chittenden.

24             MS. CHITTENDEN:  Thank you, Your Honours.

25             I'd just like to request a redaction at line 17, just a location

Page 2625

 1     where the witness was.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be done.

 3             MS. CHITTENDEN:  And, sorry, I also have another request.

 4     I think it's line 13.  "1995" should be "1992."  Sorry, page 13, lines 5

 5     to 6.  It should be -- sorry.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This should be perhaps -- this should be

 7     clarified perhaps again during the re-examination.  I don't know if that

 8     was a mistake by translation or something else.

 9             MS. CHITTENDEN:  I beg your pardon, it's my mistake.  It should

10     be 1995.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Okay, we leave it like this, and the other line

12     will be --

13             MS. CHITTENDEN:  Thank you.  Thanks.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Line 16 on page 13 will be redacted.

15             Sorry for interrupting you, sir.  Do you recall the question, the

16     last question?  Then please give an answer.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I recall the question.  When I

18     arrived at the southern site, I did not have the necessary

19     qualifications.  However, what we did mostly boiled down to the recording

20     of conversations and their transcribing.  I was not familiar with the

21     technical part of the job, but I had enough knowledge to be able to

22     record conversations and transcribe them.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24        Q.   While you were waiting to be deployed in that unit, did you

25     undergo some intelligence and technical preparations which prepared you

Page 2626

 1     for work in that unit?

 2        A.   No intelligence education, and security education, that was

 3     required before you entered a unit of that kind.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness and Mr. Tolimir not overlap,

 5     please, and could Mr. Tolimir please repeat his last question.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Microphone.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Sir, in paragraph 5 of your statement, that you received the

 9     necessary information from the previous shift and from your commander; is

10     that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Did that information concern what happened on the ground or did

13     it concern only the characteristics of the radio network that you worked

14     with?

15        A.   What do you mean by the events on the ground?

16        Q.   You say:

17             "The commander of the previous shift provided us with the

18     necessary information; for example, the frequencies used by the VRS."

19             You mentioned only the frequencies.  That's why I'm asking you

20     whether they only provided you with the information about the frequencies

21     on the radio frequencies, or did they provide you with the information

22     about the activities on the front-line?

23        A.   They provided us with the information on the --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Tolimir please slow down.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please slow down and don't overlap.  Just wait,

Page 2627

 1     because the interpreters need a certain time to finish the translation.

 2             Now, please, your answer.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Most commonly, that was information

 4     about the currently active frequencies, the persons who were intercepted

 5     on those frequencies, the units working on those frequencies, and things

 6     like that.  We did not receive much information from the front-line

 7     unless there were some activities going on.  In that case, we would be

 8     informed about such activities going on in certain areas, and the

 9     frequencies that covered those areas had already been recorded and noted

10     down.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12        Q.   Could you please tell us, how long did it take you to note a

13     conversation which lasted, for example, three or five minutes?  Usually,

14     conversations take less than five minutes.  Thank you.

15        A.   Well, you're talking about longer conversations.  Usually, the

16     conversations were short, if my memory serves me well.  I can't tell you

17     how long it took me to transcribe, but let's say that a minute or

18     two-minute-long conversation, I'm not 100 per cent sure, but it took me

19     about 10 to 15 minutes, I would say.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell us whether in 10 or 15 minutes

21     everything was completed and whether the conversation, the transcribed

22     conversation, was ready to be sent off?

23        A.   It depended on the characteristics of the conversation.  There

24     were shorter conversations that lasted a minute or two.  As for the

25     priority of sending the transcribed conversations, that was decided by

Page 2628

 1     the unit commander.  If the conversation that was recorded was very

 2     important, it was urgently transcribed and sent off.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell us, how long were your shifts

 4     over one day, over 24 hours?

 5        A.   An active shift lasted 24 hours.  You monitored frequencies over

 6     24 hours, and then depending on the activities of that frequency, you

 7     worked for 24 hours.  There were also night shifts, because during the

 8     day everybody was active, and during the night, there were people who

 9     were on duty who monitored certain frequencies if there were activities

10     on such frequencies.

11        Q.   Thank you.  I asked you:  How long were you actively engaged and

12     worked on the processing of conversations?  I didn't ask you about duty

13     service.  I asked you about your active service.

14        A.   It depended on the activity on certain frequencies.  That was

15     what dictated our shifts.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And in examination-in-chief, you said to the

17     Prosecutor that the conversations that are compiled in the file were

18     typed up over a period of 24 hours; is that correct?

19        A.   As far as I understood the question, the question was whether a

20     conversation was usually typed up within the next 24 hours.  We usually

21     typed them up immediately.

22        Q.   So you typed them up immediately and handed them over to your

23     commander?  Thank you.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.  You said that you did not type and code the

Page 2629

 1     conversations?

 2        A.   Sometimes the operators did type the conversations up if they

 3     were short.  I did it also a couple of times.  But we did not have access

 4     to the code book.  There were some cases when we typed up some shorter

 5     conversations if the main operator or the commander were absent.  In

 6     their absence, we did it, but that wasn't a common occurrence.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Witness, you say when somebody else typed up your

 8     handwritten notes, did you then collate what you wrote in your hand and

 9     what somebody else subsequently typed up?

10        A.   No, I don't think so.

11        Q.   Did you have to sign it?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Let us now look at paragraph 6.  We see it now.

14     Under number 6 in your statement, you're talking about the procedures

15     that you used when intercepting.  Do you see it?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Have you read it?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   If something was not clear on the tape or if you became aware of

20     a mistake that you had made, would you then cross out that word, would

21     you replace it by a new word, or would you leave the word that you

22     originally noted?

23        A.   We mostly used ballpoint pen, so we had to either cross the wrong

24     word or we did not even record it if we were not absolutely certain that

25     we had heard properly.  If we were not certain that we heard properly,

Page 2630

 1     then we put the relevant word in brackets or we would just put three dots

 2     instead of any word that we were not sure of.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  In your statement, you stated that you did not

 4     remember whether you knew anything about coding; is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   My question is this:  Is it possible that you do not remember

 7     that you had any necessary knowledge or that you coded anything, and

 8     still that you do remember all the conversations that the Prosecutor

 9     asked you about on examination-in-chief?

10        A.   I did not have any knowledge that would allow me to code the

11     reports.  I don't remember ever having sent a single report.

12        Q.   This may be a mistake.  In the statement, it says:

13             "I don't recall having knowledge required for coding."

14        A.   I don't remember that I ever coded any document.

15        Q.   Well, I will read your statement back to you:

16             "I don't remember whether I had any knowledge relative to

17     coding."

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   So you do not remember that you had knowledge, not that you

20     coded?

21        A.   Well, it may be down to the style.  In any case, nobody but the

22     commander and the principal operator had access to the coding and the

23     code book.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Were you asked to subsequently collate your

25     transcripts with the coded text?

Page 2631

 1        A.   No.  In the most number of cases, the author of the text actually

 2     dictated his own text to the commander or to the main operator.  We were

 3     there.  We had an opportunity to observe what was being typed up.  We

 4     were not asked to collate the two texts.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please see the third

 6     page of the statement in the Serbian language, and the English page that

 7     we see now can remain on the screen.  We don't need to change that.

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9        Q.   In paragraph 10, in the last sentence, you say -- the following

10     page is also in the English language, lines 7, 8, and 10 in paragraph 10:

11             "While there are one or two other minor differences between the

12     handwritten and typed versions, none of those differences change the

13     meaning of the intercept."

14             My question:  Could you explain to the Trial Chamber and leave it

15     to the Trial Chamber to decide whether there are differences and whether

16     they change anything?

17        A.   As far as I can remember, in these two or three reports, the

18     information concerned Cerovic and whether he was colonel or

19     lieutenant-colonel.  In the handwritten version, it says "Colonel" or

20     "Lieutenant-Colonel" in brackets.  And as far as I can remember, in the

21     typed-up material, the word is "Colonel."

22             And I also noticed another discrepancy, if I may put it that way.

23     In the place where the report refers to Krstic, X, and commander, the

24     operator put a question mark next to the word "Mladic."  In our report,

25     we put it in brackets because we were familiar with the voice modulation,

Page 2632

 1     and from the context we could conclude that the person was, indeed,

 2     Commander Mladic.

 3        Q.   And what is in the handwritten version?  Thank you.

 4        A.   Only "Mladic" without any question marks.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  What other discrepancies have you noticed?  You're

 6     talking about one or two minor differences?

 7        A.   In document 2, it says "Colonel Cerovic," and then in brackets

 8     "Or Lieutenant-Colonel."  In the printed version, it says

 9     "Colonel Cerovic."

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we scroll up the

11     English version of the statement, and the Serbian version of the

12     statement as well.  Thank you.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   On the screen, we now see that you signed only the English

15     version of the statement; is that correct?

16        A.   I signed whatever they gave me to sign.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Was that statement typed up in your presence, while

18     you were being interviewed?  Was the typist in the room or was it typed

19     up subsequently?

20        A.   Are we talking about the 2007 case?

21        Q.   Thank you.  You provided a statement on the 21st --

22        A.   2007?

23        Q.   Yes, 2007, and you can see it on the first page.

24        A.   I can see that, but I can't remember.

25        Q.   You provided it to Mr. Thayer and Elderkin, and the interpreter

Page 2633

 1     was a woman, a Zlata?

 2        A.   As far as I can remember, I was given this statement to review it

 3     and to sign it, and I did.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Can we see your signature on the Serbian version or

 5     not, and whether you received it at the interview or not, and how long

 6     did it take to interview you?

 7        A.   The January 2007 interview lasted for a single day before my

 8     evidence in the Popovic case.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  How many days did you spend at the Tribunal prior to

10     testifying?

11        A.   One day.

12        Q.   Did anyone speak to you before that?

13        A.   Before what?

14        Q.   Before you arrived in The Hague.  Did any Tribunal

15     representatives speak to you in the federation?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Please answer this:  The statement you signed in English and in

18     Serbian, were they both typed by two typists in your presence, while you

19     were giving it, or was only the interpreter there?

20        A.   I don't know whether they typed it up then.  I only know I read

21     it and confirmed its contents, and then I signed it.

22        Q.   Were you able to read it immediately following the interview or

23     did you wait for it to be typed up?

24        A.   Well, after it was typed up.

25        Q.   So it wasn't during the interview?

Page 2634

 1        A.   I don't remember.  I can't recall whether it was during the

 2     interview or immediately following it.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  In what language was the version you signed read back

 4     to you?

 5        A.   In Bosnian.

 6        Q.   So it was interpreted from English into Bosnian; correct?

 7        A.   It was translated into Bosnian, and as far as I recall, I signed

 8     it in English and in Bosnian.  It was read back to me.

 9        Q.   Since you signed it after it was read back to you, did you read

10     the text yourself or did you read the English version?

11        A.   I don't speak English, and I signed the Bosnian version.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Your Honours, I have no

13     further questions of this witness.

14             I would like to thank the witness for having provided answers

15     here.  I wish I was safe journey back, and God bless you.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir.

17             Ms. Chittenden, do you have re-examination?

18             MS. CHITTENDEN:  No, thank you, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You will be pleased to hear that this concludes

20     your examination, the evidence for today.  Thank you very much for your

21     attendance here in The Hague again, and you are free now to return to

22     your home, to your normal activities.  And the Chamber would like to

23     thank you.

24             The Court Officer will assist you.  First, we have to close the

25     screens again for your safety.

Page 2635

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             MS. CHITTENDEN:  May I please be excused, Your Honours?

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.  Have a nice day.

 4                           [The witness withdrew]

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Vanderpuye.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Good afternoon, Mr. President.  Good afternoon,

 7     Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is the next witness ready?

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  He's ready, yes.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Then he should be brought in.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.

12                           [The witness entered court]

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon, sir.  Could you please wait for a

14     moment and stand.

15             Good afternoon, sir, again.

16             Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the card which is

17     shown to you now.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

19             I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

20     and nothing but the truth.

21                           WITNESS:  PW-041

22                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You know protective measures are in place for you

Page 2636

 1     again, and first Mr. Vanderpuye has some questions for you.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good afternoon to

 3     you, Your Honours.

 4                           Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

 5        Q.   Good afternoon, Witness.  As you know, my name is

 6     Kweku Vanderpuye, and I'm going to ask you just a few questions in

 7     relation to your evidence today.

 8             I just want to remind you to try and keep your voice up, and

 9     speak a little bit slowly, and allow some pause between questions and

10     answers, so that the interpreters have a chance to translate accurately

11     what you say, so that everyone can understand each other.

12             Witness, do you recall having testified in the case of Prosecutor

13     against Vujadin Popovic on 12 December 2006?

14        A.   Yes, I do.

15        Q.   And was your testimony truthful?

16        A.   Yes, it was.

17        Q.   Have you had an opportunity to review your testimony or listen to

18     your testimony before appearing in court today?

19        A.   I have.

20        Q.   Having done that, does your testimony fairly and accurately

21     reflect what you would say if you were to be examined here today in this

22     case?

23        A.   Yes, it does.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, let me just pause for a moment.

25             I forgot something.  Could I have the witness please shown P393.

Page 2637

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I was waiting for this.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 3        Q.   Please take a look at this sheet.  See if you recognise your

 4     name.  And without telling us -- without saying your name, can you

 5     confirm that you're the person named in relation to PW-041?

 6        A.   Yes, I can.

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  All right.  Having done that, Mr. President, I

 8     would like to offer into evidence P393.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received under seal.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'd also like to offer into evidence at this

11     time P391 and P392.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  They will be received as well, and the first

13     under seal.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15        Q.   Witness, do you recall having given a statement to the Office of

16     the Prosecutor that was dated 16 November 1999?

17        A.   Yes, I do.

18        Q.   And have you had an opportunity to review that statement before

19     testifying here today?

20        A.   Yes, I have.

21        Q.   And do you stand by that statement?  Was it truthful and accurate

22     as you gave it?

23        A.   Of course.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I would like to offer into

25     evidence at this time the statement.  It's P372.

Page 2638

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received under seal.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  And I would also like to offer into evidence --

 3     actually, I'll proceed and I'll make an application to offer into

 4     evidence the intercepts in just a moment.

 5             Mr. President, I have a very brief summary in relation to the

 6     witness's evidence from the Popovic case that I'd like to read into the

 7     record.

 8             The witness adopted his OTP statement of 16 November 1999, which

 9     provided in substance as follows.

10             If we could go into private session, please.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25                           [Open session]

Page 2639

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.

 3             The witness worked at the northern facility throughout the rest

 4     of the war, following the orders and protocols of his command in the

 5     interception process.  These procedures included scanning for and

 6     listening to radio communications, taping them, and then transcribing

 7     them manually into note-books.  The transcription process sometimes

 8     required repeatedly replaying recorded conversations.  Once a

 9     transcription was complete, the note-book entries were typed into a

10     computer and encrypted.  On occasion, the witness dictated his note-book

11     entries to a typist, thus verifying its accuracy.  The witness denoted

12     portions of conversations that were inaudible by inserting ellipses into

13     the relevant passages.  In January 1996, the witness was demobilised.

14             Per his testimony, the witness confirmed having obtained and

15     transcribed 14 specific intercepts from July 1995.

16             The witness noted that while he did not receive formal training

17     as a member of the Interception Unit at the northern site, in addition to

18     his JNA training which preceded his assignment there, he also received a

19     Class B amateur radio certification in 1994.

20             The witness recalled that there were generally two note-books in

21     circulation during a shift, one used for current conversations and one to

22     be used as needed.  In addition, at least four UHER tape machines were

23     available and in use in July 1995.

24             The witness confirmed that during the interception process,

25     transcribed conversations were reviewed as many as 20 times, if

Page 2640

 1     necessary, and then taken to a typist, where they were typed up,

 2     encrypted, and sent to the unit's command.  He observed that generally

 3     the participants in the intercepted conversations tended to introduce

 4     themselves, almost as a standard practice.  Sometimes their voices could

 5     be recognised with certainty.  However, where participants or passages in

 6     the intercepted conversations could not be determined with 100 per cent

 7     certainty, question marks or parentheses were used to reflect this.  In

 8     addition, where the participants could not be determined, an X or Y would

 9     be used.

10             That concludes my summary, and I have just a few additional

11     questions.

12             I would like to have this booklet handed over to the witness so

13     he can take a look at it.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:

16        Q.   Witness, you have a booklet there of some 19 intercepts.  Let me

17     ask you:  Were you shown this booklet prior to having testified here

18     today?

19        A.   Yes, I was.

20        Q.   Have you had an opportunity to review the handwritten note-book

21     transcriptions that are contained in it?

22        A.   Yes, I have.

23        Q.   And in addition to that, did you have an opportunity -- a

24     previous opportunity to review the original note-books from which those

25     photocopies of the handwritten transcriptions were taken?

Page 2641

 1        A.   Yes, I did.

 2        Q.   Can you confirm that the 19 intercepts that are contained in the

 3     booklet were written down by you?

 4        A.   Yes, I can.

 5        Q.   And were they transcribed by you during the course and scope of

 6     your duties and responsibilities as an intercept operator on or about the

 7     date that the conversations actually occurred?

 8        A.   Yes, they were.

 9        Q.   Have you had an opportunity to compare the handwritten

10     intercepts -- your handwritten transcriptions against certain print-out

11     or printed-out transcriptions?

12        A.   Yes, I have.

13        Q.   And can you confirm that the printed-out transcriptions in the

14     booklet that you have there of 19 intercepts correspond to the

15     handwritten entries that you made in the note-books?

16        A.   Yes, I can.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  At this time, Mr. President, I would offer into

18     evidence all 19 intercepts, 14 of which came in through the witness's

19     prior testimony and 5 of which are new.  I can give you the numbers of

20     them, if that would be helpful.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Would you please indicate and, for the record,

22     tell the first and the last number of this package of transcripts.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sorry, not transcripts, but exhibits.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes.  The exhibits are P373A and B through P385.

Page 2642

 1     All right.  And then I have -- no, through P386.  I'm sorry.  And then I

 2     have P394 through P398.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  They will be received, but I would like to note

 4     that P269D is already an exhibit admitted through another witness on the

 5     31st of May.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, that's right, and I think also P386 seems

 7     to have another number as well, as P0015.1 and .2.  I think those came in

 8     pursuant to a 92 quater application, but I see here it also has been

 9     pre-marked as P386.  So just so the record is clear that they're one and

10     the same, I think.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Please carry on.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13        Q.   Witness, do you have a present recollection of the 19 intercepts

14     that are contained in the booklet before you?

15        A.   Well, not necessarily.  It was a long time ago.

16        Q.   What I'd like to ask you about is some of the -- a little bit

17     about the process of interception as occurred in the northern facility.

18             Now, per your prior statement, you indicated that part of the job

19     of interception required that you scan certain frequencies.  Can you tell

20     us who determined what frequencies were scanned by the operators?

21        A.   The operators searched by way of radio-relay equipment, the

22     800 sets.  This is what we had.  And we also had an FM 200.

23        Q.   And were you told what specific range of frequencies or specific

24     frequencies to search for, or was it simply up to the operators to

25     determine what they would be searching for?

Page 2643

 1        A.   We received instructions about what directions to take, in terms

 2     of turning our antennae in that direction, and then after that it was

 3     easy to find a channel or a frequency.

 4        Q.   And without giving us any names, can you tell us whom you

 5     received these instructions from?  Would it be a squad commander or a

 6     platoon commander or company commander?

 7        A.   We received instructions from our squad commander, who probably

 8     received his commands from the command.

 9        Q.   In respect of the process of intercepting, was that overseen by

10     anyone?

11        A.   Of course it was.  The squad commander was always with us.  He

12     even assisted at times.

13        Q.   And did the squad commander review entries that you made in the

14     note-books or that the operators made in the note-books?

15        A.   He frequently did, but he wasn't physically present at all times

16     when we did so.

17        Q.   As an intercept operator, from your statement, you didn't receive

18     any formal training on how to do your job, but did you receive any

19     training in general as to how to do it?

20        A.   We all learned as we went.  The only formal training was the

21     Ham Radio classification I received.  As for the rest, we gained

22     experience under our commander as we went along.

23        Q.   Do you know if any of the other operators that you worked with

24     also had earned Ham Radio certifications?

25        A.   Yes, quite a few of them.  At the beginning of the war, most of

Page 2644

 1     my work-mates had been Ham Radio enthusiasts.  We all worked together,

 2     and we joined the unit to do our part.

 3        Q.   And in terms of the manual transcription, that is, the writing

 4     down of these conversations into the note-book, once that was completed

 5     you said that it was taken to a typist.  Do you know what the typist did

 6     with that material?

 7        A.   He would take our handwritten transcripts, and this person was a

 8     communications person who would type things up and encrypt the

 9     conversations.  Then all that would be sent by way of Paket communication

10     to the command.

11        Q.   Was anybody -- or, that is, any operator permitted to type and

12     encrypt intercepted communications and send them over to the command, or

13     was that limited in some way?

14        A.   In my squad, we had a designated person who worked on that.  He

15     had undergone special training for that.  We weren't familiar with the

16     encryption systems.

17        Q.   In the course of transcribing an intercept, did you on occasion

18     work with other members of your unit in order to determine what can be

19     heard on a tape?

20        A.   Yes, I did.  In situations in which, for example, I could not

21     make out a word in a sentence, then I asked for their assistance.  I also

22     asked for their assistance in terms of deciding who the interlocutors

23     are, since by that time we were able to recognise most of them by the

24     tone of their voices.

25        Q.   And were you permitted, as an operator, to write down a

Page 2645

 1     participant or interlocutor's name into the intercept based solely upon

 2     recognising that speaker's voice?

 3        A.   Could you please rephrase your question?

 4        Q.   Were you allowed to write down a person's name as a speaker in a

 5     definitive sense based solely upon your recognition of the tone of their

 6     voice or their manner of speaking?

 7        A.   Yes, but frequently they also introduced themselves at the

 8     opening, which was further corroboration.

 9        Q.   And if you recognised a person's voice, would you denote that in

10     the intercept in some way, as distinguished from when a person is

11     introduced or when their name was actually mentioned in the recording?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   So can you tell us how it's possible to tell the difference

14     between whether or not a person's name was spoken during an intercept,

15     intercepted communication, or whether or not you simply -- an intercept

16     operator simply recognised their name?  Is there a way to tell the

17     difference in -- in what's written down in the note-book?

18        A.   In some conversations, you can see for yourself that they

19     introduced themselves, and then in others it is absent.  However, we

20     listened to them on a daily basis, and for the most part we didn't need

21     their introductions.  We immediately knew who they were.

22        Q.   And would you write that down in the print-out or you wouldn't

23     write that down at all?

24        A.   As far as I know, we did not.

25        Q.   Okay.  Now, in some instances a name can appear as a speaker in a

Page 2646

 1     print-out, although the person's name isn't mentioned in the text of the

 2     conversation.  Is that the case or would that be the case if a person's

 3     name were spoken before the tape-recorder were turned on?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Can you explain that to the Trial Chamber, how that could occur?

 6        A.   At the beginning of a conversation, it could happen that those at

 7     the switchboard who had to put people through would be contacted, and

 8     people required them to be put through to a certain person, and at the

 9     very outset such people would introduce themselves.  This first, initial

10     part of the conversation usually did not have anything of particular

11     interest.  We listened to the conversations, themselves.  However, a

12     recording is made of the totality of a conversation, whereas I only noted

13     down those portions which I believed were interesting.

14        Q.   And so would it be the case that in certain conversations that

15     you noted down, the speaker may not be referred to expressly in the

16     conversation, even if you noted down their name as being a participant?

17        A.   It had to be introduced at the beginning of the conversation or I

18     had to recognise the voice.  I didn't do it in any random way,

19     arbitrarily.

20        Q.   And when that occurred, did you note down the person's name at

21     the time that you listened to the conversation on any piece of paper, or

22     in the note-book, or any place else before you actually later did the

23     transcription from the tape?

24        A.   Well, you see, any conversation was recorded from the very

25     beginning, and then when we rewound the tape, we introduced the

Page 2647

 1     participants as we recognised them.

 2        Q.   Perhaps my question was a little unclear.  Let me try a different

 3     way.

 4             When you had a conversation where the person's name isn't

 5     mentioned and you don't recognise the voice, but the person was

 6     introduced before you turned on the tape-recorder, did you note down that

 7     name at the time that you heard it or did you note it down at some other

 8     time?

 9        A.   If I did not hear the name, I would use an X/Y designation.  If I

10     didn't recognise the participant or if the participant wasn't introduced,

11     there was no place for speculation there.  What you heard is what you

12     noted.

13        Q.   All right.  I'm going to try one more time.  When you recorded a

14     conversation and the introduction was not recorded, did you write down

15     the person who was introduced at the time you turned on the recorder or

16     did you write it down at some point later?

17        A.   Well, believe me, I'm not able to answer your question.  I don't

18     know.  There are very few and far between situations like that.  I really

19     don't know.

20        Q.   Well, when you listen to a tape-recorder and the person wasn't

21     introduced, how did you know who was speaking if they introduced

22     themselves and you didn't record it?

23        A.   I apologise.  I believe that -- I still don't understand your

24     question.  I'm not sure what you're asking me.

25        Q.   Did you sometimes not get the person's name on the tape-recorder

Page 2648

 1     before you started taping?  Let's start there.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And when you didn't get the person's name on the tape-recorder

 4     and you later transcribed what was on the tape-recorder, did you make a

 5     note at the time that you turn on the tape-recorder who was speaking so

 6     that you can recall later who is on the recording?

 7        A.   Okay.  When a conversation started and when we started recording,

 8     at that same moment we were duty-bound to record the time, the frequency,

 9     and the participants in the conversation, and the UHER equipments were

10     reset back to zero to indicate when the conversation started.  That's

11     what we did.

12        Q.   And did you write down the participants of the conversation at

13     that time?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Is that how you were able to recall who the participants were for

16     a given conversation when you later transcribed it?

17        A.   Yes, yes.

18        Q.   From that piece of paper, is that what's transferred and written

19     into the note-books; frequency, date, time, participants, and so on?

20        A.   Yes, yes.

21        Q.   And that's what's -- is that what's also given over to the typist

22     and put in the typed-out version of those intercepts?

23        A.   The typist received my note-book.  When my shift was over, I

24     handed the note-book over to him, unless there was an urgency and

25     something needed to be typed before my shift was over.

Page 2649

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is that perhaps a convenient time for the first

 4     break?  Then you have the opportunity to think about certain --

 5     rephrasing of some questions to make something more clear.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If there are some questions you'd like me to

 7     ask.  I really only have one more or two more questions that I think --

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We can do it after the break.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  All right.  Thank you, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to mention, very shortly, we have

11     received several documents you tendered, but three of them don't have an

12     English translation yet.  These are P375B, P382B, and P398B.  These three

13     will only be marked for identification, pending translation.

14             We must have the first break now, on technical reasons, and we

15     will adjourn until quarter past 4.00.

16                           --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20        Q.   Witness, I was asking you about the piece of paper that you write

21     down certain information on before you actually transcribe a conversation

22     into your note-book.  Once you've transcribed -- or once you've put the

23     information on the piece of paper into your note-book, what happens to

24     the piece of paper?

25        A.   We would leave such papers aside.  The commander was there.  I

Page 2650

 1     don't know what happened to them.  But as far as I'm concerned, I would

 2     usually note everything in my note-book immediately.

 3        Q.   Now, in your packet of 19 intercepts here, there are a couple of

 4     instances in which a Tolimir is mentioned by name; not as a speaker,

 5     per se, but is in the intercept, itself.  Do you know whether or not or

 6     can you recall whether or not those entries concerning Tolimir refer to

 7     General Tolimir of the VRS?

 8        A.   [No interpretation]

 9        Q.   Sorry, the answer wasn't recorded on the record.  Would you

10     repeat it, please?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to show you --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for Mr. Vanderpuye.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I have a --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What about your microphone?

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  It won't go on.  It's flashing -- all right.

17     Thank you, Mr. President.

18             If I could have, please, in e-court -- I'd like to show the

19     witness P395.  I believe it's tab 11 in the booklet.  It will be 395A,

20     I think is the handwritten.  This should be -- yes, this is an intercept

21     that is dated 18 July, and the time is 1831.

22        Q.   In this particular conversation, you can see that there's a

23     reference to Tolimir, and it's probably about the fifth line down or the

24     fifth entry down, which reads that:

25             "He is the first on the list, that the approval came from Tolimir

Page 2651

 1     and they will try tomorrow or most likely the day after tomorrow."

 2             Do you see that in the handwritten version?

 3        A.   Yes, I can see it.

 4        Q.   And the reference to Tolimir in this case, would that be

 5     something that you would have heard on the tape, as opposed to something

 6     that you would have deduced from the nature of the conversation?

 7        A.   This was taken from the tape.  I didn't deduce this.  We never

 8     deduced anything.  What we heard on the tape was subsequently

 9     transcribed.

10        Q.   I'd like to show you P384, please, and that should be tab 14 in

11     this packet of 19 intercepts.  And I'd like to show you A, P34A, that's

12     in the packet again -- P384A.

13             Okay, I think we have it up on the screen.

14             This is an intercept that's dated 21st July 1995.  It's at 1030.

15     And in the English version, it looks about 10 lines from the bottom of

16     the screen, you can see it reads:

17             "But he has a meeting scheduled with our side and the military

18     side from that hole down there."

19             "D," Djurcic in this case, says:  "Yes, yes.

20             "L," Lelek:  "But General Tolimir told me this morning not to let

21     anyone go up there."

22             Further down you can see:

23             "And when did General Tolimir tell you this?"  And repeats

24     General Tolimir's name one more time after that.

25             Would that be also something that you would have heard

Page 2652

 1     definitively on the tape as opposed to something you might have or could

 2     have deduced from the nature of the conversation?

 3             Just so that you know, the references to Tolimir can be found at

 4     the bottom of the page ending 1 -- 513 in B/C/S, and in the middle of --

 5     the top and the middle of the page, of the following, of the following

 6     page, 514.

 7        A.   Again, this is another conversation from a tape.

 8        Q.   I just want to refer you, if I can, to 513, which is still on the

 9     screen here, where you have "Lelek," and then written in parentheses you

10     have what appears to be "Domar."  And then following that you have

11     "Puk Djurcic."  Can you tell us why you have "Domar" written in

12     parentheses?

13        A.   The first participant, Lelek, and in brackets this is the name

14     for the switchboard.

15        Q.   And was that something mentioned in the tape-recording or is that

16     some other information that you had?

17        A.   There's no other source.  The recording on the tape is the only

18     source we relied on.

19        Q.   Now, in terms of performing your job as an intercept operator,

20     were certain aids made available to you, such as information from your

21     commanders, maps, code-names, things of that nature?

22        A.   Yes, we had maps, our commander provided us with information, and

23     things like that.

24        Q.   And were the maps pertinent to locations, people, frequencies,

25     things of that nature?  Can you tell us what they were -- what they

Page 2653

 1     concerned, if you can remember?

 2        A.   What I can remember is the fact that the maps depicted the names

 3     of the switchboards.

 4        Q.   And were you able to use those or rely on those in transcribing

 5     intercepts or writing down certain information concerning those

 6     intercepts?

 7        A.   They didn't mean much to me, particularly.  When I transcribed my

 8     conversations, I just transcribed my conversations.  Those maps were much

 9     more important for my commander.  In my case, I tried to make sure that I

10     transcribed the conversations that I heard as accurately as I heard them.

11        Q.   How important was it that your transcriptions accurately

12     reflected what was on the tape?

13        A.   That was the most important thing.  We tried very hard to make

14     those transcripts as accurate as possible.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Witness.

16             Thank you, Your Honours.  I have no further questions.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.

18             Mr. Tolimir, do you have questions for this witness?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

20             I would like to greet everybody once again, and I would like to

21     greet the witness.

22                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, since we speak the same language, I would

24     kindly ask you to make a five-second pause after the end of my question

25     to avoid overlapping.

Page 2654

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

 2     Exhibit P372, P372.  This is the statement provided by the witness to the

 3     OTP on the 16th of November, 1999.

 4        Q.   My question is this:  Before the 16th of November, were you in

 5     touch with anybody from the OTP and from this Tribunal?  Thank you.

 6        A.   Can I now start answering?

 7        Q.   Yes, thank you.  After I say, Thank you, you can start answering.

 8        A.   Do you mean before I provided my statement, whether I had any

 9     contacts with anybody from the Tribunal?  Is that what you're asking me?

10        Q.   Yes, exactly.  Thank you.

11        A.   I don't remember ever having been in touch with anybody before I

12     provided my statement.

13        Q.   And what about after you provided the statement, did you have any

14     contacts with the personnel of the Tribunal?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Could you tell the Trial Chamber when and where?  Thank you.

17        A.   I don't know the date, but I know that we were invited to come to

18     the command of the 2nd Corps in Tuzla, and a representative of the

19     Tribunal was there to talk to us.

20        Q.   Could you please tell us who invited you and whether you were

21     there all together or just you, yourself?  Thank you.

22        A.   I can't tell you who invited me because I don't remember.

23     Several people had been invited, and while I provided my statement, I was

24     on my own in the room together with the official of the Tribunal.

25        Q.   Could you please tell the Trial Chamber, when was that, what year

Page 2655

 1     and what month?  Thank you.

 2        A.   I don't remember.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  So that was after the testimony provided on the

 4     16th of November, 1999, and before your appearance in court today?

 5        A.   As far as I can remember, I did not testify in 1990.

 6        Q.   But you provided your statement on the 16th of November, 1999.

 7     Where was that, in the federation or here at the Tribunal?

 8        A.   In the federation.

 9        Q.   And after that, after you provided your statement, did you

10     testify in the Popovic case?  Thank you.

11        A.   I don't understand your question.

12        Q.   I will repeat.  You provided your statement to the OTP on the

13     16th of November, 1999, and that statement was used in the Popovic case;

14     is that the case, yes or no?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And after that -- actually, how much time elapsed

17     between the time you provided your statement and your first testimony?

18        A.   My first testimony happened in 2003, but not in the case that you

19     mentioned a minute ago.

20        Q.   Was that here at the Tribunal or did you testify before a

21     national court?  Thank you.

22        A.   Here.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Did you provide any other statement before that or

24     did you testify about the same circumstances you are testifying about

25     today?  Thank you.

Page 2656

 1        A.   The same.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  In the meantime, between the 16 November 1999 and the

 3     testimony in 2003, did you get in touch with any of those persons?

 4        A.   What persons?

 5        Q.   You now said that you do not remember when you got in touch with

 6     the representatives of the Tribunal.  Was that during the period between

 7     1999 and 2003?  Thank you.

 8        A.   As I told you, in 1999 I provided my statement.  My first

 9     testimony here at the Tribunal was in 2003.  And after that, I testified

10     once again two and a half years ago here, again.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Did you provide another statement before the

12     testimony in 2003?  Thank you.

13        A.   I don't know what statement you're talking about.  What are you

14     asking me?

15        Q.   During that testimony, were you shown a statement?  Had the

16     Trial Chamber been provided with a statement?  Did the OTP have the

17     statement?  Did the accused have a statement?

18        A.   At all times, they used this statement.

19        Q.   So what did you testify about in 2003, and what did you talk

20     about with the OTP between 1999 and 2003?  What did you discuss and when?

21        A.   In 2003, I testified here at this Tribunal, and that was that.

22     And you mean after the statement that I provided?

23        Q.   No, no.  Thank you, thank you.  In which case did you testify in

24     2003?  Thank you.

25        A.   The Jokic and Blagojevic case.

Page 2657

 1        Q.   Thank you.  And did you testify -- or did you base your testimony

 2     on the same statement that we are discussing here today?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And did you use the same transcripts that we're using here today?

 5     Thank you.

 6        A.   I can't answer that, because in the previous cases we used some

 7     conversations, but I don't remember which ones of those that we are

 8     looking at here today.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And after 2003, did you have any more contacts with

10     the representatives of the OTP?  Thank you.

11        A.   The next time after that was when I came here two and a half

12     years ago.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Was that in the Popovic case?  The Prosecutor

14     mentioned that on the examination-in-chief.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Can you confirm that in all the cases, the same statement was

17     used, the one that we are using here today?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Did you need to seek approval from the authorities in

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina to appear at the Tribunal and to talk to the

21     representatives of the Tribunal?  Thank you.

22        A.   I just needed an approval for a leave of absence from work.

23        Q.   Thank you.  How many persons were present while you provided your

24     statement?

25        A.   Two.

Page 2658

 1        Q.   Thank you.  You said that there were two people present, just as

 2     it is indicated on the first page; yes or no?  Thank you.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Which of the two persons typed your statement?

 5        A.   Well, I did not pay any attention to that.  I know both persons.

 6     I remember when they visited me.  Which one of them was typing, I don't

 7     know.  I wouldn't be able to tell you.

 8        Q.   Did they have a laptop or a typewriter on the desk while they

 9     were talking to you?

10        A.   Yes, they had a laptop and a printer.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Were you then given your statement to sign?  Thank

12     you.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Did you sign a statement in your own language or in English?

15     Thank you.

16        A.   I can't answer your question.

17        Q.   Thank you.  If you can't answer, could you please look at the

18     screen in front of you and tell us in which language is the statement

19     that you signed?

20        A.   English.

21        Q.   Thank you.  How come you did not sign a statement in your own

22     mother tongue?

23        A.   I don't know.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Do you speak English, since you signed the statement

25     in English?  Thank you.

Page 2659

 1        A.   A little.

 2        Q.   And based on your knowledge of English, were you able to sign the

 3     statement after having read it yourself or was it read to you?

 4        A.   The statement was read back to you 100 per cent accurately, loud

 5     and clear, and I signed it.

 6        Q.   At that time, you were not given a version in your own mother

 7     tongue, only in English?  Thank you.

 8        A.   I don't know.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could the witness

10     please be shown page 2 in the same document, and please zoom in on

11     paragraph 4.  Thank you.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   We are looking at paragraph 4, where it says that:

14             "In April 1992, I, together with four or five other amateur radio

15     enthusiasts, linked together and joined the Territorial Defence Unit

16     (TDU) as radio interceptors.  We initially used our own equipment.  Some

17     time later we were given relatively modern equipment."

18             My question is this:  How did you join the Territorial Defence

19     Unit?  Was that after a conversation with somebody?  Did somebody prepare

20     you for that?  Thank you.

21        A.   Yes, a former officer of the JNA talked to me.

22        Q.   At that time, was he a member of the JNA or the BiH Army?

23        A.   Before the war, he was a JNA officer.  And when the war started,

24     he joined the BiH Army and worked for the BiH Army.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Did you then receive paperwork to regulate your

Page 2660

 1     status with the Territorial Defence or the BiH Army?  Thank you.

 2        A.   Yes, we received the paperwork.  I can't tell you exactly what

 3     that was, but at first we were given Territorial Defence booklets and

 4     then they were BiH Army booklets.

 5        Q.   Does your military booklet reflect the date when you joined the

 6     Territorial Defence, and was that later used towards your pensionable

 7     years?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell us, what equipment did you

10     have, your own equipment, for interception?

11        A.   We had Radio Ham stations, and as far as I can remember, we also

12     received -- is it really important for me to give you the names?

13        Q.   It is important, because you stated that they were later on

14     transported to the northern site.  I would be interested to know what you

15     used to intercept those conversations.

16        A.   We had those -- I don't know where they came from, but they were

17     called RUP.  And when we were transferred -- or, rather, that was at the

18     first location.  And then the second group that came from Banovici, they

19     brought the receivers that we used.  They were of a rather good quality.

20     Those were ICOM IC-7000A R-3000 equipment, and then those that we called

21     hundreds, the broadband type of equipment for interception for a broad

22     range of frequencies that could be intercepted.

23        Q.   Could you please explain for the Trial Chamber, when you say

24     "hundreds," what do you mean?  What kind of equipment was that?

25        A.   That was a radio receiver.  I can't remember the frequencies that

Page 2661

 1     it could intercept, but in any case we used them to -- for the

 2     frequencies of 200 megahertz, and as well as radio-relay equipment that

 3     we used the most, the radio-relay equipment 800.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  When did you get this, as you call it, relatively

 5     up-to-date equipment, that is, the last sentence of the fourth paragraph?

 6        A.   It was at the very beginning, in the summer, I think.  The

 7     equipment was brought by our Ham Radio operators from Banovici and Tuzla.

 8     I don't know where they got it, but it was a relatively new equipment.

 9        Q.   Can you tell us what type of equipment it was so that we would be

10     aware of what means you used to gather information?

11        A.   These were radio receiver sets.  They couldn't transmit.  They

12     were specifically designed to receive.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Did you modify any of those radio receivers?  Did you

14     work on them or did you use them in their original form as received,

15     since you cannot remember which ones those specifically are?

16        A.   I think I told you which ones those are.  The only modification

17     was with the RRU 800.  We simply created converters, small pieces of

18     equipment which split the 24 channels to further sets from the original

19     receiver.

20        Q.   Well, there's no need to be upset.  You only said "receivers,"

21     but you did not specifically name the type.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Did you also adapt the antennae you had for your receivers to

24     suit your needs better?

25        A.   I didn't do that personally.  I was an operator.  But our

Page 2662

 1     commanders were fully versed in that field, and they could place

 2     well-directed antennae which fully met our needs.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 5 in your statement - do you see

 4     it? - in the Serbian it's page 2, you say:

 5             "While we were at Lipik, on Mount Majevica ..."

 6             And there is mention of the autumn of 1993.  Did you find it?

 7        A.   Yes, Lipik.

 8        Q.   You say that until the fall of 1993, you noted conversations down

 9     on pieces of paper available, and I quote:

10             "The majority of the conversations, however, were dictated

11     directly from the reel-to-reel tapes to the typist and then transmitted

12     to the 2nd Corps headquarters."

13             Did I accurately quote your statement?

14        A.   You did.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Can you clarify for the Chamber what you say in

16     paragraph 5, something you describe as standard procedure, that it was

17     dictated directly from reel-to-reel tapes to the typists so that there

18     was no need for you to take handwritten notes?  Why was it done this way?

19        A.   I can explain that quite simply.  It was 1993.  This was at

20     Lipik, on Mount Majevica.  At the very beginning, we were completely

21     isolated and we made do with what we had.  We noted conversations down on

22     whatever paper was available.  Quite a few of those conversations were

23     sent directly by phone, and later on received computers, and we used

24     Paket communication.  (redacted), where we were

25     joined by the other group, and things were much better organised then,

Page 2663

 1     making it far easier to work.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  You say that it was dictated to the typist.  Would

 3     the typist type it into a computer or did they use typewriters?

 4        A.   They typed it into computers.  Urgent conversations could also

 5     have been transmitted by phone, before the use of Paket communication.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before you continue, Mr. Tolimir, Mr. Vanderpuye,

 7     I think everybody's noticed that there was a name mentioned which should

 8     be redacted.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Page 51, line 18, especially.  Thank you.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please carry on, Mr. Tolimir.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14        Q.   In paragraph 6 of your statement you say as follows, and you can

15     check the accuracy:

16             "In October 1993, this radio-intercept operation was transferred

17     to" the northern site.

18             My question is this:  Did you move all of the equipment from

19     Lipik to the northern site?

20        A.   We did.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Did any units remain at Lipik or was the location

22     shut down?

23        A.   I think only the sentry unit remained.  They trained their young

24     recruits there.  We left our facility, however, and that's it.

25        Q.   Thank you.  When you moved to the northern site, did you continue

Page 2664

 1     with this practice of dictating directly from the tapes to the typist?

 2        A.   No.  By that time, we had a person who encrypted the

 3     conversations, and he was the only person with access to that computer.

 4     It was our task to bring all our note-books, once our shift was finished,

 5     to him, and then he sent it on to the command.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  At the northern site, did you have an antenna system?

 7        A.   Yes, we did.  We had antenna systems.  Each set that needed its

 8     own antenna had it.

 9        Q.   So there was no need for you to use the old antennae you had

10     brought from Lipik; correct?

11        A.   Well, let me explain something.  We did not use the radar systems

12     of the JNA because they took all of it away.  In the meantime, our

13     commanders made some more equipment, and it was all enough for us to

14     work.

15        Q.   Thank you.  I wanted to know this:  Did you use the old antenna

16     systems you had at Lipik with your equipment or did you make use of any

17     other antennae?

18        A.   Well, we had this new equipment.  Some of it was from before, and

19     we also received new sets.  They were new, in terms of production, and we

20     made our antennae.

21        Q.   So you had sets without antennae; correct?

22        A.   Without any antenna systems, we would not have been able to

23     intercept.

24        Q.   Thank you.  But the new sets which you received, did they have

25     their own antenna systems or not?

Page 2665

 1        A.   They did, but these were our antenna systems.  We did not receive

 2     original antennae.  It was our commanders who created these antenna

 3     systems for us, and that is what we used.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Did you move those antennae, did you change their

 5     positions or direction, depending on the participants and frequencies of

 6     a particular conversation?

 7        A.   We turned our antennae in the direction it was ordered to us.  If

 8     the direction was the Drina Corps, that is the angle at which we would

 9     place the antennae.  You know very well that once radio-relay equipment

10     is mounted, it is stationary.  You turn your antenna in a certain

11     direction where the signal is the strongest, and that's it.

12        Q.   Yes, I knew that.  But there was some mention made here of some

13     primitive means being used, but I don't think this is the way you had to

14     resort to.

15        A.   No, we had a relatively new, modern equipment.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Did you also have an expert -- a technical expert who

17     was charged with mounting and maintaining those systems?

18        A.   I think I said that at the beginning.  All of us were

19     enthusiasts, radio amateurs with experience.  There were technical

20     engineers among us, so we did not have any technical problems in that

21     sense.  I remember very few problems, breakdowns, et cetera.

22        Q.   Was there a single person, out of the number of experts you had

23     there, who was tasked with maintaining and setting up the antennae and

24     radio receivers, or was it done by several people?

25        A.   Once those antenna systems are set up, they work, and there's

Page 2666

 1     nothing there to be meddled with unless they had to be redirected.  But

 2     as far as I know, I can remember very few instances when something needed

 3     to be repaired.  In any case, these people were always available and

 4     ready to assist, if necessary.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us how far removed were the antennae

 6     from the receivers, themselves?

 7        A.   Some antennae were up on the roof, so quite close; whereas some

 8     antenna systems were on a nearby hill, close to the room where we worked

 9     in the PPS, so the distance was at least 10 metres in that case.

10        Q.   Were you on duty 'round the clock for the 15 days referred to in

11     your statement?

12        A.   No, not 'round the clock.  That would have been impossible.  Our

13     practice was to be on duty three to four hours, unless there was

14     significant activity, and then it would take us longer to rewind the

15     tapes and do everything that was necessary.  But not 'round the clock.

16     That would not have been feasible.  You cannot work for 24 hours like

17     that.  We would do our shift, and then we're ready to assist, if

18     necessary.

19        Q.   On page 3 of your statement, in paragraph 1, you say that your

20     shift lasted 15 days, and then you would be on leave the next 15 days.

21     That is why I asked you whether you were on duty 'round the clock for the

22     15 days in question.  How long did an operator sit to process the

23     conversations in his shift?

24        A.   As I said a moment ago, three to four hours, unless we needed

25     more time.  For the 15 days, we were there, and then we rotated.

Page 2667

 1     However, the equipment was on non-stop.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  This is why I'm asking you that.  I asked you how

 3     long you, as operators, worked in a period of 24 hours.  Let's take you,

 4     for example.

 5        A.   I cannot say precisely, but it would be three to four days --

 6     three to four hours, unless there was more activity.  In the evening,

 7     there would be less activity, and only one person remained on duty.

 8     There was no need for two or three of us to be awake throughout the

 9     night.  And, of course, in the morning, at around 5.00, we would wake up,

10     but the system was well worked out.

11        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 3, as you can see, on page 3, you say in

12     the first sentence:

13             "We used the scanning function on our equipment."

14             Does that mean that when a certain set has the scanning ability,

15     there was no need to do anything manually or to move the antennae?

16        A.   You are quite right in that, but this has nothing to do with the

17     antennae.  These were state-of-the-art sets.  Once a conversation was on,

18     the scanning was stopped, the UHER recorder would turn on, and that was

19     it.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Did you receive any special instruction on how to

21     work with the equipment or did you receive any instruction on the

22     activities of the units you monitored?

23        A.   Any information and orders were conveyed to us by our commander.

24     We followed his instructions, and that is it.

25        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 4 - you can follow it there to see

Page 2668

 1     whether I'm quoting accurately - it says:

 2             "Everything was recorded, and we would only note down the

 3     frequencies, dates, and names on a piece of paper."

 4             My question is this:  Did you also -- did you only note down the

 5     frequencies, date, time, and names, whereas the rest was unimportant, or

 6     was it?  Thank you.

 7        A.   Well, I have just started to explain that.  The set would

 8     register a conversation.  The scanning function would be stopped and the

 9     UHER recorder turned on.  As the recording went on, we noted down the

10     time, frequency, and the rest.  Once the conversation was finished, the

11     recording would be stopped and the scanner turned on.  If something was

12     urgent, in our assessment, we would start transcribing immediately, and

13     then a work-mate would sit down at the set and continue working.  So,

14     things went smoothly.

15        Q.   Was there any need to burn any documents or use them for other

16     purposes out of the transcripts you made by hand?

17        A.   I never burned my transcripts, and I didn't see anyone else do

18     so.  Once I used up a note-book, I would hand it over to the commander,

19     and he would be better placed to tell you what he did with those.

20        Q.   Thank you.  So this closes the topic of papers.  You handed them

21     over to your commander.

22             What about the tapes; what was done with them by you, the

23     operators, once they were filled?

24        A.   Once the tape reached its end, we did the same thing we used to

25     do with the note-books.  I would hand it over, put in a fresh tape, and

Page 2669

 1     the commander used the old ones.

 2        Q.   Did you ever re-record a single tape?  Did you ever tape another

 3     conversation over a previous one?

 4        A.   That is quite likely, because when the commander returned tapes

 5     to us, I didn't know whether it was an old tape which was erased or not.

 6     We seldom had fully new tapes.

 7        Q.   Did you have a set of equipment which could have been used solely

 8     for erasing at that location?

 9        A.   I don't know that.

10        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 5 of your statement - it's the last

11     paragraph on page 3 - you say that you compared -- I quote:

12             "I did not have much contact with them, but from time to time

13     when I could hear a piece of conversation, I would compare that to the

14     material collected by the State Security Service.  That way, occasionally

15     we managed to see both ends of the line."

16             Can you explain to the Chamber whether you could determine both

17     participants, based on that portion of the conversation, or were you able

18     to establish what both of the services gathering such information were

19     doing?

20        A.   Well, this is a number of questions.  It's confusing.

21        Q.   You said that first you heard one participant, and then based on

22     what the State Security recorded, you made your comparisons and then you

23     could gain information about both participants.  Are you referring to

24     both services that intercepted the conversations or both participants in

25     the conversation that you monitored?

Page 2670

 1        A.   Most probably, although as far as I can remember, of course, that

 2     we shared the same facility for a while and we had some contacts, of

 3     course, but I never followed -- we never knew what they were monitoring.

 4     I believe -- after such a long time, I can't really remember, but I

 5     believe that it did happen, that I could hear one participant in a

 6     conversation and I couldn't hear the other at all.  It didn't happen

 7     often, but I can't exclude such a possibility.  It was probably within

 8     that context that I stated that.  I did ask them whether they were

 9     monitoring the same conversation, whether they recorded it, and whether

10     they could assist me with deciphering who the other participant was.

11     That would be my answer.

12        Q.   Was that reliable?  If you heard only one part of the

13     conversation, was that enough for you to compare what you had and what

14     the other service had, what they had recorded?  Was that enough for you

15     to conclude who the second participant was, if you could not conclude

16     that based on your intercept alone?  Thank you.

17        A.   We cannot talk about any deductions or drawing conclusions.  We

18     are talking about entire conversations when I could only hear one

19     participant in the conversation.  At the same time, the identical -- the

20     same conversation was recorded by them.  I don't know whether you have

21     had an occasion to hear any such intercepted conversations.  There's no

22     place for deductions.  The conversations recorded by one service and by

23     the other are absolutely identical, and there's no room for guessing.

24        Q.   Thank you.  I apologise to you.  I'm only reading from your

25     statement.  I'm quoting your words in the fifth paragraph, in the last

Page 2671

 1     two sentences.  You can check, if you want.

 2             However, you just told us that it was very rarely that you could

 3     hear only one participant.  Did I understand you properly?  Is that why

 4     it wasn't necessary for you to ask for their assistance, because such

 5     situations were few and far between?  Thank you.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Does this mean that in the conversations that you

 8     were listening to, you could hear the interlocutor in Sarajevo as well as

 9     the one in Han Pijesak, for example?  Thank you.

10        A.   Yes.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could the witness

12     please be shown page 4.  Thank you.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   The first sentence on page 4, which you see already, reads:

15             "When we identified the frequencies, we used the working map on

16     the wall of the room where we worked."

17             My question is this:  Was that map always the same or was it

18     changed?  Was it changed often?  How was it drawn, who drew it up?  What

19     information it contained?  Did it contain all the information that the

20     Ham operators needed or, rather, the intercept operators needed?  Thank

21     you.

22        A.   It says here when we identified frequencies, that means that we

23     used that map, and what I meant by that was the fact that the map allowed

24     me to determine the direction from which the signal came.  It was the

25     commander who used the map most often.  He inserted the names of the

Page 2672

 1     participants and so on and so forth.

 2        Q.   I know how the maps are drawn.  Can you please tell me whether it

 3     was often changed or not?

 4        A.   The map, as such, there was just one, as far as I can remember.

 5     And as for what he drew on it, what he inserted on it, I don't know.

 6        Q.   In any case, you always saw just one map that you used to define

 7     the elements that you could then use on your equipment.  Thank you.

 8             Could you please tell us whether you recorded only conversations

 9     involving the VRS or whether you also recorded conversations of the units

10     for which you provided intelligence support, because that's why your unit

11     is called the Electronics Support Unit or the Unit for Electronic

12     Warfare?  Thank you.

13        A.   I personally monitored what was ordered to me by the commander.

14     Those were predominantly officers of the VRS.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Did you monitor anybody else or anything else but the

16     VRS officers?  Thank you.

17        A.   As far as I can remember, only them.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Can you remember any other conversation, save for the

19     19 that are before you in the file?  Thank you.

20        A.   Sir, there were so many conversations, I don't even know their

21     number.  You're asking me to try and recall a conversation now.  It's a

22     very tall order.  It would be very difficult for me to remember any of

23     them.

24        Q.   Thank you very much.  It would be difficult to remember even the

25     19 that are before us if you didn't have the transcript before you; is

Page 2673

 1     that correct?

 2        A.   Yes, you're right.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  In your statement, you stated that you had used a

 4     BC 91 and 42; pages 35 and 36 and 91.  Are those only the note-book pages

 5     which contain the transcripts that are today before you?

 6        A.   Could you please assist me?  Could you please help me?  I didn't

 7     understand you.

 8        Q.   Before you is a file with 19 conversations under 19 different

 9     numbers?

10        A.   Yes.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I ask a question of the witness.

13             Do you have any problems and need a break?  That was the

14     impression some people formed.  If you need a break, just indicate it.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, please.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In that case, we should have the second break

17     now, and we will --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, yes, I need a break.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Okay.  We will have the second break now, and we

20     will resume 10 minutes before 6.00.

21                           [The witness stands down]

22                           --- Recess taken at 5.20 p.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 5.55 p.m.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We are in a problematic situation because the

25     health condition of the witness is not the best and he can't continue the

Page 2674

 1     hearing and giving evidence this afternoon, so that we are facing a

 2     problem.

 3             The next hearing will be next week, on Tuesday.  The witness --

 4     if we continue examining this witness, he has to stay over the weekend,

 5     and we have to resume on Tuesday with this witness, if he is then able

 6     and he is in a better health condition.

 7             The other option could be to have an additional hearing tomorrow

 8     just to finish this witness so that we could give him the opportunity to

 9     travel back to his home, if his health condition is better tomorrow.  We

10     have no indication for that, but we should think about that, if we could

11     be quite flexible.

12             Mr. Tolimir, could you give us an estimation, how much additional

13     time you need for your cross-examination?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

15             If the witness is sick and if he has to travel where he can be

16     treated, I agree that he should be sent straight away.  And as for my

17     questioning, if I don't put all of my questions, it will not change my

18     destiny, I will not be acquitted or convicted.

19             May God be of assistance to this witness, and may he make him

20     feel better.  We will pray for him.

21             As far as I'm concerned, I wish him the best of health, and you

22     do what is best for the witness.  As far as I am concerned, you do

23     whatever you, as the Trial Chamber, deem to be the best for the witness.

24     Thank you.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  These are very nice words.  On the other hand,

Page 2675

 1     Mr. Tolimir, to avoid any misunderstanding, you are not under time

 2     pressure.  You have the right to continue your cross-examination.  It's

 3     up to you to decide.  If you have additional questions and if you want to

 4     use the time perhaps in an additional hearing tomorrow or next week, or

 5     if you say it is not so important, you have had the opportunity to

 6     cross-examine the witness, this is only up to you.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 8             Let your decision be appropriate to the witness's health.  I'm

 9     sure that his sojourn here until next Tuesday would not be beneficial for

10     him.  If you think that he should stay until Tuesday, then I'm prepared

11     to give up on all the questions that I may still have had for him.  If

12     you think that he can appear tomorrow, then I am prepared to put a few

13     more questions to him.

14             Thank you very much.  I appreciate your understanding.  I know

15     that you want to do best by the witness, by myself, and by the OTP,

16     although I believe that the OTP does not have any additional questions

17     for the witness.  Thank you very much.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for your position.

19             Mr. Vanderpuye.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21             Mr. Tolimir is right.  I don't have any additional questions for

22     this witness as a result of the examination so far.  But I do want to

23     stress, because I think it's important, that we do not wish to put

24     Mr. Tolimir in a position where he is required to waive his right of

25     cross-examination of this witness, given the fact that we've presented

Page 2676

 1     the evidence of this witness.  And although he's willing and flexible, in

 2     terms of the cross-examination or how much additional cross-examination

 3     he may have, I just want the record to be clear that we're not requesting

 4     that, and if he wants to do that, that's certainly his prerogative, but I

 5     just want that to be clear.

 6             We have two witnesses that we're able to go with, I think, today,

 7     one of which I think can probably be finished today.  It might be a good

 8     idea to proceed with them, or at least the one, and then find out if it's

 9     suitable for the witness, who has taken ill, if he's able or willing to

10     continue next week.  And if that's possible, then I think that's probably

11     a pretty good solution.  That way, Mr. Tolimir can reflect on whether he

12     wishes to further examine the witness, and hopefully the witness will be

13     in a good-enough shape at that time to proceed and complete, I think, a

14     relatively short portion or remaining examination.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for this position.  It's the position

16     of the Chamber as well.  There should be no time restraint for

17     Mr. Tolimir.

18             Before we entered the court, I asked Madam Registrar to find out

19     the situation of the witness during the last hour of our hearing this

20     afternoon, and I hope we have some more additional information before we

21     adjourn this evening.

22             I think it's a good proposal to continue with the next witness.

23     And this one will be which one?

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  It's PW-038, Witness 105.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

Page 2677

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  May I be excused for the rest of the

 2     proceedings, Mr. President?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think it is

 4     inhumane to force the witness to stay here ill over the weekend because

 5     of a few additional questions.  I am ready to conclude my examination.

 6     Mr. Vanderpuye is right in what he says, but I waive my right, and

 7     there's nothing problematic about this particular witness.  There is no

 8     mention of my name or myself in these intercepts alone.  Therefore, it is

 9     not essential for me to continue.  Given that he is ill, he should be

10     released to go home.  Pressure is a very difficult thing for those who

11     are unaccustomed to it, especially when they are in completely new

12     circumstances such as these.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, the Chamber appreciates your

14     position, and we should consider what you have said.  We should make a

15     decision at the end of today's hearing.

16             Good afternoon, Mr. Elderkin.

17             The next witness should be brought in.

18             MR. ELDERKIN:  Good afternoon, Mr. President and Your Honours.

19             I will be examining the next witness, and I'd like to state for

20     the record the witness has the protective measures of pseudonym and

21     facial distortion.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  You're welcome.

23                           [The witness entered court]

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon, sir.  Welcome to the Tribunal.

25     Please wait a moment so that the screens are opened.

Page 2678

 1             Again, good afternoon.  Could you please read aloud the

 2     affirmation on the card which is shown to you now.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 4     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 5                           WITNESS:  PW-038

 6                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Elderkin, for the Prosecution, has some

10     questions for you.

11             MR. ELDERKIN:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12                           Examination by Mr. Elderkin:

13        Q.   Good afternoon, Witness.

14             As you know, my name is Rupert Elderkin.  And just before I start

15     asking questions, I want to remind you to try to keep your voice up and

16     speak into the microphones, and to speak slowly enough for the

17     interpreters to translate between what we're saying.  And if there's any

18     question that I ask you that is unclear, then please say so, and I will

19     do my best to rephrase the question.

20             MR. ELDERKIN:  Please, could I ask for 65 ter 6297 to be shown,

21     and that's marked as P416.

22        Q.   Sir, please, could you look at what's written on the screen, and

23     without reading it aloud, can you confirm if that is your name?

24        A.   Yes, it is.

25             MR. ELDERKIN:  I'd ask for the pseudonym sheet to be admitted

Page 2679

 1     under seal.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received, under seal, with the given

 3     number.

 4             MR. ELDERKIN:

 5        Q.   Sir, do you recall testifying here in January of 2007?

 6        A.   I do.

 7        Q.   And did you have a chance to listen to that testimony in your

 8     language yesterday?

 9        A.   Yes, I did.

10        Q.   Does your testimony from 2007 fairly, accurately, and truthfully

11     reflect what you would say if you were asked the same questions in court

12     today?

13        A.   In essence, yes.

14             MR. ELDERKIN:  I'd move, Your Honours, to have the 2007 testimony

15     admitted.  It's as P414, which is the confidential version under seal,

16     and the public version is P415.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

18             MR. ELDERKIN:  I'd also request at this time, Your Honours, for

19     the admission of the witness's May 1999 witness statement, which was the

20     basis of his evidence in the Popovic case and an exhibit to his evidence

21     in that case, which is P406, also to be under seal.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That will be received as well.

23             MR. ELDERKIN:  With your permission, I'd now like to read a very

24     short summary of the witness's evidence, and this can all be open

25     session.

Page 2680

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Continue.

 2             MR. ELDERKIN:  The witness was a member of the BiH Army.  In

 3     July 1995, he was an intercept operator, based at the northern location.

 4     His work practice followed the established procedure of scanning,

 5     recording, and transcribing intercepts into note-books.  Normal practice

 6     was to work in six-hour shifts, followed by a six-hour break, depending

 7     on how busy it was.  During the fall of Srebrenica in July 1995, people

 8     worked for 20 hours a day.

 9             The intercept operators grew to know which channels to monitor on

10     particular frequencies, and became skilled at identifying many of the

11     voices they heard.  The witness was able to recognise several VRS

12     officers' voices and knew several VRS code-names.

13             That concludes my summary, and I have, with the Court's

14     permission, a few additional questions for the witness.

15             I'd ask the Usher could pass up a packet of intercepts, please.

16        Q.   Witness, yesterday did you have a chance to review this file

17     containing 11 intercepted conversations?

18        A.   Yes, I did.

19        Q.   And did you also see yesterday the original handwritten

20     note-books in which you originally recorded those conversations?

21        A.   Yes, I did.

22        Q.   And do the intercepts in the blue file before you correspond with

23     those original note-books?

24        A.   Please repeat your question.

25        Q.   Are the intercepts in the file on your desk now the copies of

Page 2681

 1     intercepts that you saw in the original note-books yesterday?

 2        A.   Yes, yes.

 3        Q.   And can you confirm that the intercepts at all 11 tabs in the

 4     blue file are in your handwriting?

 5        A.   Yes, it is my handwriting.

 6        Q.   Did you listen to, record, and transcribe those intercepts in

 7     July 1995?

 8        A.   Yes, I did.

 9        Q.   Generally, how soon after intercepting a conversation did you

10     transcribe it into a note-book?

11        A.   It all depended on the importance and urgency of a conversation.

12     It was done either immediately or 10 to 20 minutes later.  In any case,

13     first it was all recorded and then subsequently noted down.

14        Q.   And is that true specifically of these 11 intercepts?

15        A.   I'm not certain for all of them, but most of it was taken down

16     and transcribed within such a period of time.

17        Q.   And did you also look yesterday at printed versions of those

18     intercepts in the file?

19        A.   Yes, I did.

20        Q.   And do the handwritten intercepts correspond with the printed

21     versions that you saw?

22        A.   Yes, they do.

23             MR. ELDERKIN:  At this time, I'd ask to have the 11 intercepts

24     admitted as indicated on the tender list.  And the first seven of the

25     intercepts in the packet, which are P407, 408, 409, 410, 411, 412, and

Page 2682

 1     413, were all admitted through this witness in the Popovic trial, and

 2     P417, 418, 419, and P420 were not used with or admitted through this

 3     witness in the Popovic trial.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The first set of documents will be received, but

 5     the Exhibit numbers P407B, C and D only marked for identification,

 6     pending translation.

 7             And could you please indicate if the second set of documents are

 8     contained in the binder of 11 intercepts we have in front of us?

 9             MR. ELDERKIN:  Mr. President, yes, they are at tabs 8 through 11.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  These four intercepts will be

11     received as well.

12             MR. ELDERKIN:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

13             And, Witness, thank you.  I have no further questions for you at

14     this time.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you, Mr. Elderkin.

16             Witness, now the accused has the right to put questions to you in

17     his cross-examination.

18             Mr. Tolimir.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

20             I'd like to greet all those present yet again, including the

21     witness.  I hope today's testimony will be concluded following God's will

22     and not my own.

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Witness, after my questions, please pause shortly so as not to

Page 2683

 1     overlap.  Otherwise, your answers will not make part of the transcript.

 2        A.   Very well.

 3        Q.   First, I'd like for your witness statement to be shown in

 4     e-court.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  P406.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] P406.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will not be broadcast.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We can see the cover page in

 9     English.  Could we have both cover pages on the screen at the same time.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   In what language did you sign your statement, what version?

12        A.   The Bosnian one.

13        Q.   Thank you.  We can see the English version being signed, and your

14     mother-tongue version is not signed.  Can you explain that?

15        A.   I can, but I signed the English version which was read back to me

16     in Bosnian, although I don't know why there is no signature on the

17     Bosnian version.

18        Q.   Save for those two persons whose names we can see on the cover

19     page, were there any other persons present?  It seems that one of these

20     people interviewed you and the other one interpreted.

21        A.   Yes, these were the two people present.

22        Q.   Did they record your interview?

23        A.   I'm not sure whether it was or not.  It was a long time ago.

24        Q.   Which one of these two typed up the conversation, and in what

25     language?

Page 2684

 1        A.   Your Honours, I have a question to ask.  Can I freely mention any

 2     names?  Can I mention the name of the person working on this?

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you referring to the names of the persons who

 4     signed this document?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think there is no problem.

 7             Mr. Elderkin.

 8             MR. ELDERKIN:  Mr. President, the names of the language staff,

 9     our practice is to request that it's in private session.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We go into private session for a moment.

11                           [Private session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We are now in open session.

Page 2685

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Can you tell us now?

 3        A.   I think it was in English and that it was interpreted to me into

 4     Bosnian.

 5        Q.   So it was interpreted to you orally, whereas she typed it up in

 6     English?

 7        A.   They showed me the Bosnian version as well, and they told me what

 8     it was about.

 9        Q.   Could they have typed it up immediately in both languages?

10        A.   I don't think it was done simultaneously.  I think one version

11     preceded the other.  Otherwise, I would not have signed the English

12     version, since I do not understand English.

13        Q.   Thank you.  We can see on the screen that you did sign the

14     English version, whereas you did not sign the version in your mother

15     tongue.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What is your question?

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   My question is this:  Which version did he sign, the English or

19     his mother-tongue version?

20        A.   The statement before me has my signature in the English version.

21     I know what it's about because it was put to me in Bosnian as well, and I

22     do not have an explanation for why it was not signed in Bosnian too.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Let's move to another topic.

24             You provided this statement in 1999.  Where was it?

25        A.   In Tuzla.

Page 2686

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Before that, did anyone speak to you from the

 2     Tribunal about any statements and material presented in proceedings?

 3        A.   Before that, I had had no contact with any Tribunal

 4     representatives.

 5        Q.   Did you have any following contacts with OTP representatives?

 6        A.   I did.

 7        Q.   When and where?

 8        A.   I think it was in 1999 onwards.  It all took place in Tuzla.

 9        Q.   Did it have to do with this particular statement or did it have

10     to do with something else?

11        A.   It had to do with this statement as well as some other cases.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Did those cases have to do with Srebrenica?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Did you also provide certain statements concerning Srebrenica

15     events?

16        A.   Please repeat.

17        Q.   Did you provide another statement, in addition to this one, that

18     would have to do with the events in Srebrenica?

19        A.   This is the only statement I gave, and it had to do with the rest

20     of those events.

21        Q.   Does it contain any descriptions of those events because of which

22     you were contacted by Tribunal representatives?

23        A.   As far as I can see here before me, it does not, but --

24        Q.   Can you tell the Chamber what the topic of that discussion was,

25     since it was not in the material forwarded to us?

Page 2687

 1        A.   When I gave the statement, all of this information, well, the

 2     gist -- well, this is the statement, these were the questions they put,

 3     and I answered.

 4        Q.   And you also signed the information you provided to them?

 5        A.   Yes, according to what I can see.

 6        Q.   Were any other people included in the process?

 7        A.   No, the same people.

 8        Q.   Could you please explain, in your own words, why did those

 9     persons again contact you, and when was that, and was it in Bosnia?

10     Thank you.

11        A.   Your Honour, could I please not answer this question in open

12     session?

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 2688

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  We are now in open session.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Carry on, please, Mr. Tolimir.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   I have just one more question about this topic.  Could you please

15     tell the Trial Chamber, the part of the statement that you subsequently

16     signed and that was used in the previous cases, can that be considered a

17     secret agreement or can that part also be made public as well as this

18     one?  Thank you.

19        A.   I apologise, sir.  Could you please repeat?

20        Q.   You have just told us that in the repeated contacts with the same

21     persons, you provided several statements for the cases in which you

22     previously testified.  Those statements are not here today.  That's why

23     I'm asking you whether those statements contained some sort of agreement

24     between you and those persons that are not supposed to be made public,

25     which are secret.

Page 2689

 1        A.   No, sir, the same statement.  Whenever I testified, we only used

 2     one sentence -- one and only statement that I provided and that I used in

 3     my testimonies.

 4        Q.   You just told us that you even signed something after those

 5     repeated conversations and contacts.  What was that?

 6        A.   Only an affidavit that there was, indeed, a conversation with me.

 7        Q.   Never mind, let's move on to another group of questions.  I don't

 8     want to waste any more time.  Let's move on to something easier.

 9             In the third paragraph of your statement --

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown the

11     page where -- with the third paragraph?  Now we have it.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] In the third paragraph, in the

13     first sentence, you said:

14             "I joined the BH Army in March 1993, and I was deployed to a unit

15     for radio surveillance"?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Could you please explain, for the benefit of the Trial Chamber

18     and for my own benefit, what does this mean?  What is the meaning of

19     "electronic reconnaissance"?  Did you perform electronic reconnaissance,

20     and what pieces of equipment did you use for electronic reconnaissance

21     and anti-electronic activities?  Thank you.

22        A.   I apologise.  Could we again go into private session?  I can't

23     provide my answers in open session.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

25                           [Private session]

Page 2690











11 Pages 2690-2693 redacted. Private session.















Page 2694

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please carry on, Mr. Tolimir.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24        Q.   On page 3 of this document - could it be displayed, please - in

25     paragraph 3 you say, in the last sentence:

Page 2695

 1             "I had the discretion to decide what was and what was not

 2     important."

 3             And in the second line of the same paragraph, you say that you

 4     made only brief summaries.  Could you please explain what was entered in

 5     those brief summaries and what did you mean when you say that you had the

 6     discretion to decide?

 7        A.   As an operator, I had an approval to make an assessment and

 8     selection between private conversations and conversations involving

 9     military personnel that were of no consequence for my command.  That's

10     the selection that I had the discretion to make.

11        Q.   Did you also make a selection in terms of the brief summaries

12     that you made?

13        A.   Could you please repeat your question?

14        Q.   Thank you.  In the second line of the third paragraph, you say:

15             "I would just make a brief summary in a note-book if a

16     conversation was not important."

17             That's the second sentence.  Thank you.

18        A.   Yes.  If I thought that the conversation was not important, I

19     would just write a brief summary to summarise the contents if any of the

20     things were mentioned in any of the subsequent conversations.

21        Q.   Thank you.  You said that for a while you were without

22     note-books.  During the Srebrenica period, did you have note-books?

23        A.   We didn't have note-books.  We transcribed conversations on all

24     sorts of things; on pieces of papers, in note-books, whatever we had.

25        Q.   You also stated that there were tapes and that there were papers,

Page 2696

 1     and that note-books were archived in the command, and that the tapes were

 2     listened for important things?

 3        A.   The note-books that were filled up were archives -- archived, and

 4     the tapes were given to the command, and the command decided what should

 5     be left permanently recorded on the tapes.  The rest was erased.

 6        Q.   Did you personally destroy your notes or did you give your notes

 7     to the commanders to decide what to destroy if it was not important?

 8        A.   I don't think that the note-books were destroyed in my locations.

 9     They were forwarded to another location and they were archived there.

10        Q.   Do you remember that the note-books were burned in your location?

11        A.   I don't remember the note-books being burnt by anybody.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please look at the 10th paragraph, the last

13     two sentences:

14             "I also recall a number of conversations relating to the fall of

15     Srebrenica."

16             And could you please tell us, when you say that people were

17     infiltrating from the city, that the Serbs were infiltrated into that

18     city, what do you mean?

19        A.   This is not about the infiltration into the city.  This is about

20     people who were fleeing Srebrenica, who joined the columns that were

21     passing through.  Some of them were VRS members that were infiltrated

22     into those columns among those people.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             "There are also conversations regarding the placing of mines on

25     routes those fleeing were expected to take, and requests made for buses

Page 2697

 1     to be provided."

 2             Thank you, end of quote.  Could you please tell us where those

 3     mines were placed and whether we can find that information in the

 4     transcripts that are before us?

 5        A.   The mines were placed at the places where the VRS assumed that

 6     those columns would pass through.  However, we heard in subsequent

 7     conversations that the entire column was able to bypass those mines.  And

 8     as for the buses, I believe that there are conversations relative to the

 9     buses which were requested for the evacuation.

10        Q.   My question was whether these conversations are relative to those

11     who attempted to leave Potocari and go in the direction of Tuzla or

12     whether this concerns the others, those who tried to break through with

13     the military column towards Tuzla.  Thank you.

14        A.   I don't know who this concerned, whether they were trying to

15     break through and go in from Potocari.  In any case, they were trying to

16     reach free territory.  These were the columns discussed here.

17        Q.   Since you wrote the transcripts and you included this in the

18     statement, it would be important for us to know who this pertains to.  Is

19     it the people who were evacuated aboard -- on board buses from Kladanj or

20     those people trying to break through, who went via Crni Vrh and

21     Baljkovica towards Tuzla?

22        A.   I think it had to do with those who were on foot.  I don't think

23     they would drive buses through minefields.

24        Q.   So why did you mention the buses, then?

25        A.   The buses were used to deport those who had been caught.

Page 2698

 1        Q.   To where?

 2        A.   Well, I couldn't tell you that.

 3        Q.   Did all those buses go to Srebrenica, since you say that you knew

 4     well the voice of the person requesting that the buses be provided?  Did

 5     he send buses to Srebrenica for all those who were at Crni Vrh and

 6     Baljkovica?

 7        A.   I know the person well by the voice, the person requesting those

 8     buses, and he probably needed them for certain parts around Srebrenica.

 9        Q.   Did it have to do with the women, children, and the elderly who

10     were taken on board -- aboard buses to Kladanj, or did it have to do with

11     those soldiers who were on foot, trying to reach Baljkovica?

12        A.   It was for the women and children, but also able-bodied men were

13     referred to, as well as certain figures.

14        Q.   And you're saying this because of some assessments of yours or

15     based on what you recorded and reflected in the transcripts?

16        A.   This comes from the conversations I recorded and listened to.

17        Q.   Out of these conversations, of which there are 11, can you

18     indicate a passage which would have to do with that, to be able to see it

19     for ourselves and see whether it concerns civilians or soldiers?

20        A.   I didn't tell you precisely whom it concerned, but, yes, I can go

21     back to the conversations and see.

22        Q.   Let me remind you.  It is in that portion in which you speak of

23     the Laser Company in Brcko and the 30 buses going towards Srebrenica.

24     Perhaps you'll be able to find it now.

25        A.   Please bear with me.  I need to find it.

Page 2699

 1        Q.   If you find it, please read it out so as to avoid the need to put

 2     any further questions about it.  We only have five minutes left.

 3        A.   I found it.  The participants were X and Y:

 4             "Is there a possibility that we send some 10 buses?"

 5        Q.   Go on.

 6        A.   The other says:

 7             "Call them immediately.  Apparently, there is 6.000 of them up to

 8     now."

 9             And the first one asked:

10             "Are they able-bodied men?"

11             The other says:

12             "Keep quiet about this.  Do not repeat."

13        Q.   Go on.

14        A.   "All right, send them.  I have three locations.  It is where you

15     and I were, and then the one at the crossroads, and then halfway to

16     there.  This is where they should be loaded, and at each of the locations

17     there is between 1.000 and 1500 of them, and there are women and children

18     being transported."

19             And the other one says:

20             "Yes, but there is more."

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please tell the Chamber which tab in

23     your binder you were reading from.  Which document was it?  Perhaps it is

24     tab number 7.  Is that true?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, number 7.

Page 2700

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you to all who helped us.

 2             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4        Q.   Were the buses sent to collect those from Potocari or to collect

 5     those you were referring to?

 6        A.   I don't know who they were supposed to collect.  They were

 7     requested, and I don't know who they transported.

 8        Q.   In the statement I quoted to you, you said that they

 9     transported -- well, see for yourself:

10             "I don't know whether those buses were used, but I am familiar

11     with some subsequent conversations in which it was confirmed that the

12     buses took people to unknown destinations.  I suppose it was also

13     recorded."

14             Can you tell us what those locations or destinations were?

15        A.   I can't tell you precisely, because I don't have those

16     conversations before me concerning that topic.

17        Q.   Thank you.  I can tell you that we have witnesses from all those

18     locations, and they speak of their manner -- means of transport.  But

19     since you intercepted this, are you sure that those who went on foot were

20     then transferred onto buses?

21        A.   Sir, I wasn't interested in how they moved about.  I was

22     interested in what we heard and recorded.  Whether they transported

23     able-bodied men, civilians, or women, later on in some other

24     conversations it turned out that the buses were used.

25        Q.   Thank you.  I'm running out of time.  Can you tell us which

Page 2701

 1     conversation it is, with what number, and then we'll check it ourselves,

 2     and the Chamber can do the same, so as not to waste time.

 3        A.   It is 0320-5302.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And which tab in your binder in front of you, the

 5     hard copy?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Number 7.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 8             Please carry on.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10        Q.   Witness, in the radio network you used concerning Srebrenica,

11     well, were you familiar with that and with its participants?  Did you

12     have that on one of your working maps?

13        A.   Well, we had most of them, 90 per cent of the participants'

14     code-names and frequencies.

15        Q.   Did you have at least the main commanders of units engaged around

16     Srebrenica?

17        A.   Yes, we did.

18        Q.   As part of the network, did you also have my position and my

19     radio station frequency?

20        A.   We did.

21        Q.   What was it; can you tell the Chamber?  Was it marked on your

22     working map?

23        A.   Apologies.  Do you mean the frequency of the network or the name,

24     the code-name?

25        Q.   Either way.

Page 2702

 1        A.   I think it was Panorama.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please, for Mr. Tolimir.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Was Panorama a combat unit, or was it a command post, a location,

 5     a facility?

 6        A.   I think it was a command post.

 7        Q.   Was it an office or working area or a unit in the field?

 8        A.   I apologise.  I don't know.  What do you mean, "a working place"?

 9     It was a command and the people who worked there.

10        Q.   When intercepting conversations from there, were you able to

11     establish whether it was the main staff or an operational unit?

12        A.   Yes, we were able to establish that.

13        Q.   So what was your conclusion?

14        A.   I think it was an army command.

15        Q.   Among the conversations you intercepted, were there any

16     conversations where I was a participant?

17        A.   I think so.

18        Q.   Did it have to do with any combat operations or with some other

19     activities concerning UNPROFOR and other sides to the conflict, in terms

20     of negotiations?

21        A.   I don't know.  I didn't study this in detail.  But you are right,

22     there are certain conversations concerning UNPROFOR and private

23     conversations.  There's lots of it, but I didn't go into details.

24        Q.   Is there a conversation which would have to do with the

25     engagement of units in combat activities?

Page 2703

 1        A.   I apologise, but first I would have to refer to the

 2     conversations, themselves.

 3        Q.   There is no need.  The four conversations that were admitted

 4     here -- first, seven were admitted, and then another four which were used

 5     only in this case and not the Popovic case, can you see those and do you

 6     know what they refer to?

 7        A.   I see one of those now.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  These are tabs 8, 9, 10, 11 in the binder.  Thank

 9     you, Mr. Elderkin.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Can you tell us whether they refer to combat or non-combat

12     activities?

13        A.   Sir, I looked at two out of four, and so far I didn't notice any

14     combat activities.  But these were regular activities in times of war.

15     Anything happening in a war has to do with combat.

16        Q.   Well, what about humanitarian assistance; is that a combat

17     activity?

18        A.   Well, it depends on the conditions in which it is forwarded.  If

19     it is in grave condition, then --

20        Q.   In the two intercepts you just saw, did you notice any direct

21     participation on my part or were there only go-betweens mentioning my

22     name?  Am I one of the participants or are the participants only

23     referring to me?

24        A.   In the first few I saw, you are one of the participants.

25        Q.   And you say that I only spoke about the activities which did not

Page 2704

 1     have to do with the front-line and Srebrenica.  Am I discussing any

 2     activities having to do with the front-lines and Srebrenica?

 3        A.   I apologise.  I would have to refer to them first.  I don't know

 4     it by heart.

 5        Q.   Well, the first two you reviewed.

 6        A.   In the first conversation, it was a private matter you discussed

 7     with this gentleman.  He was asking something for you to do about his

 8     relative.  As for the other one --

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, following this

10     answer I will have no further questions.  By your leave, I would kindly

11     ask that we wait for his reply.  In case we're running too late, we can

12     go without it.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Well, we are waiting for the reply.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I need some time to

15     read all this and to see whether anything of that -- any of that is

16     mentioned.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have no further

18     interest in that.

19             I would like to thank you for testifying here.  I wish you a safe

20     journey, and God bless.  As far as I'm concerned, this closes my

21     examination.

22             I would like to thank the interpreters, on behalf of Defence, in

23     trying to catch up with me and the witness.  I would also like to thank

24     all those who followed this testimony in these difficult conditions.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.

Page 2705

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir, for your nice

 2     words.

 3             Mr. Elderkin, do you have re-examination?

 4             MR. ELDERKIN:  May I have just less than two minutes,

 5     Mr. President, to clear up one point?

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The interpreters and all the others, the court

 7     recorder, are fine with it.  Yes.

 8             MR. ELDERKIN:  Thank you.

 9                           Re-examination by Mr. Elderkin:

10        Q.   Witness, there was one reference in the English transcript.  It

11     was page 82, and questions and answers at line 5 to 8.  You were asked:

12             "You say that you joined the unit in 1995, and ... for how long

13     did you work without interruptions?"

14              And you answered:

15             "I believe that I worked up to sometime around the 8th or

16     9th June."

17             Could you clarify whether this answer is correctly interpreted?

18        A.   It is not correct.  I think it was July, rather than June.

19        Q.   And did your shift-work continue throughout July, during the

20     period of the fall of Srebrenica and Zepa?

21        A.   For as long as there was any activity and lots of work, this is

22     how we worked.  On some days, the intensity was lower, requiring less

23     personnel because they were sufficient to have it all under control.

24             MR. ELDERKIN:  Thank you, Witness.  I have no further questions.

25             And with thanks to the Court's indulgence and to all the staff.

Page 2706

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Witness, you will be pleased that this concludes

 2     the questioning for you.  You are now free to return to your home and to

 3     your normal activities.  And, again, thank you for your attendance here.

 4     But please wait a moment before you leave the courtroom.

 5             As all others, I would like to thank all who assisted us in the

 6     quite difficult circumstances of today's hearing.  It was, nevertheless,

 7     a very effective hearing.  And especially I would like to say my

 8     gratitude to the interpreters and the court recorder.  It was hard work

 9     today.

10             And I have to inform everybody that I got information about the

11     previous witness.  We will not get any information about his possibility,

12     if he is able to testify tomorrow.  He is now in the hospital.  And in

13     these circumstances, we can't resume tomorrow.

14             I take it, Mr. Tolimir, with really high gratitude, that you have

15     contributed to the situation and that you indicated to agree that the

16     witness should be free to return if his health permits his return to his

17     home.  Is that still your position?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             It is still my position.  Both the previous witness and this one

20     can go home.  It would really not be humane for us to keep him waiting

21     until Tuesday or recall him from the hospital.  There is really no

22     urgency.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for that, Mr. Tolimir.  The

24     Chamber appreciates this position very much.

25             We are finished today's hearing.  Thank you all, and we wish you

Page 2707

 1     a good weekend.  But we will resume next Tuesday, I think, at 9.00 in

 2     Courtroom I.

 3             We adjourn.

 4                           [The witness withdrew]

 5                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.11 p.m.,

 6                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 15th of June,

 7                           2010, at 9.00 a.m.