1 Tuesday, 22 June 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom.
6 When we left last Thursday, we were under time pressure and therefore we
7 didn't deal with the tendering of some documents, some exhibits, with the
8 last witness, PW-035. And I would like to mention that the Trial Chamber
9 was informed that, in connection with Witness PW-035, the Prosecution
10 wishes to tender the following exhibits into evidence: P506A, B, C, D,
11 E, F, G; P507A, B, C; and the documents P508 through P15 [sic].
12 The Trial Chamber notes that the Defence has not objected,
13 therefore the Trial Chamber admits the mentioned exhibits into evidence.
14 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
15 First, one correction: The last number was not recorded
16 properly. It is P156 [sic].
17 And I got the information that some of these documents have not
18 an English translation yet, and therefore they will be marked for
19 identification. These are P506C, P506F, P508, P514, P515, and P516.
20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Another correction: There is a wrong number
22 again, page 1, line 15: It should be P516. I hope we got it now.
23 Before the next witness is being brought in, there are some
24 problems with exhibits again. The next witness is PW-030, if I'm not
25 mistaken, and it has come to the Chamber's attention that the
1 Prosecution's exhibit list for this witness has several materials that
2 appear under the heading that states "not proposed for admission." We
3 are not quite sure what that means. Is -- the Chamber notes that these
4 materials were already tendered in the Prosecution's 92 ter motion of the
5 18th of March, 2009, and subject to the Chamber's decision of the
6 3rd of November, 2009. Therefore, the Chamber would like to get some
7 clarification as to the intent of the Prosecution.
8 Mr. Elderkin.
9 MR. ELDERKIN: Good afternoon, Your Honours and to everyone in
10 the courtroom. Your Honours, that's correct. The list is a long one and
11 it's -- contains what I believe to be all of the exhibits admitted
12 through this witness in the Popovic proceedings, which is the basis of
13 his 92 ter evidence. The reason why a large number of the exhibits are
14 left out: In part, a number of them have been admitted already through
15 one of the previous supervisor intercept operator witnesses; and the
16 others have been left out because we didn't consider them to be essential
17 to a full understanding of the witness's evidence, and we didn't want one
18 to include materials simply because they lay in the record in a previous
20 If Your Honours consider that it's preferable that they be
21 admitted, then, of course, we see no problem with that. And obviously
22 they were in the 92 ter package originally, but it's an attempt of
23 stream-lining while still listing them to be fully clear as to what was
24 used with this witness previously.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Chamber would like to know what your
1 intention is, if you -- because they are all marked for identification.
2 If you don't want to use them with this witness or another witness, then
3 it should be withdrawn, these materials, and then marked as -- yeah,
4 assigned as marked, not admitted. But it is in your hands to decide if
5 you want to tender them -- you have already tendered them, if you want to
6 have them admitted or not.
7 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, I would request only for the -- the
8 first indicated exhibits on the current list that we've -- are headed
9 requested to be admitted with the witness now. And for the others, I
10 don't seek admission for them with this witness.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Then we should clarify which exhibits exactly you
12 will have tendered, and we will see how to deal with that at the end of
13 the witness's testimony.
14 MR. ELDERKIN: I think that's preferable, Your Honour.
15 Thank you.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The next witness should be brought in. And for
17 the safety of this witness, the screens should be closed so that the
18 witness can be brought in. The witness has protective measures,
19 especially face distortion and a pseudonym.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon, sir. Please stand for a moment
22 and wait so that the screens can be opened.
23 Good afternoon, sir. Would you please read aloud --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Would you please read aloud the affirmation on
1 the card which is shown to you now.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
3 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 WITNESS: PW-030
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, and now please sit down.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: At the beginning of your evidence, Mr. Elderkin
9 has some questions for you.
10 Mr. Elderkin.
11 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Examination by Mr. Elderkin:
13 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. As you know, my name is --
14 A. Good afternoon.
15 Q. -- Rupert Elderkin. Before we get started, I just wanted to
16 remind you to try to leave a short pause after your answers so that the
17 interpreters will be able to keep up with us. And if there's anything
18 that I ask to you that's unclear, then please say so and I will do my
19 best to rephrase my question.
20 MR. ELDERKIN: Could I ask, please, for 65 ter 6338 to be brought
21 on screen, and this shouldn't be broadcast. This is --
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is P513 -- no, sorry, the wrong one.
23 THE REGISTRAR: For the record, this is Exhibit P543.
24 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
1 MR. ELDERKIN:
2 Q. Witness, without saying aloud what is written on the screen,
3 please can you confirm if that is your name.
4 A. Yes, that is my name.
5 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, I'd ask for the pseudonym sheet to
6 be admitted under seal.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received under seal.
8 MR. ELDERKIN:
9 Q. Witness, do you recall testifying here in December of 2006?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. Last week did you have a chance to listen to that testimony in
12 your language?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. Does that testimony fairly, accurately, and truthfully reflect
15 what you would say if you were asked the same questions in court today?
16 A. Yes, I fully agree.
17 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, I'd move to have the witness's 2006
18 testimony admitted. And there are both confidential and public versions
19 of that testimony which are marked as P541 and P542, I believe.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: They will be received, the first one under seal.
21 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you.
22 And Your Honours' permission, I'd now like to read a short
23 summary of the witness's evidence.
24 And can we start, please, in private session.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
1 [Private session]
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session.
12 MR. ELDERKIN: The witness was platoon commander at the southern
13 location. His unit was comprised of two squads, each with a maximum of
14 nine men. In the witness's platoon, everybody had a common interest in
15 doing the job well. As well as taking care of supplies, repairing
16 equipment, making improvements, and carrying out other duties as the
17 leader, the witness also took part in shift duties with the men. The
18 platoon in principle worked six-hour shifts.
19 The southern location was on an elevation with no natural
20 obstacles, allowing for the interception of radio relay communications of
21 the Army of Republika Srpska. The witness's unit received orders from
22 his superiors to monitor particular directions or azimuths, depending on
23 their needs. Every two or three days, it was the witness's duty to
24 review the entire frequency area to see whether there were any new radio
25 relay stations. He would report to his command, and they would decide
1 whether any of them had to be monitored or not.
2 In July of 1995, the witness's unit at the southern location
3 monitored the area of Eastern Bosnia where the Drina Corps was active,
4 and occasionally monitored some other directions. At pages 5031 through
5 5038 of the witness's Popovic testimony, he described the processes his
6 unit followed in the course of their work. The witness confirmed that he
7 personally transcribed the four intercepts that he was shown and that
8 they were in his handwriting.
9 For one of these intercepts between Popovic and Krstic at 1300
10 hours on the 2nd of August, 1995, the witness confirmed that his
11 transcription corresponded to an audio recording of the same
12 communication. He explained that his transcription of the communication
13 did not contain the beginning of the conversation heard on the audio
14 recording, as he considered that part was not necessary since it involved
15 Popovic speaking to the operator on duty to establish contact, which the
16 witness did not consider to be significant.
17 Your Honours, that concludes my summary. I have a very few
18 questions which I would like to ask the witness.
19 Could I ask for a packet of intercepts to be handed up to the
20 witness, please. I'd note that there are two yellow stickers I've
21 flagged on pages to which I will refer the witness simply for his
23 I'd ask first for the witness --
24 Q. Sir, please, could you look at the intercept at tab 2.
25 MR. ELDERKIN: And this is 65 ter 3176, and that can be in
1 version B, which should not be broadcast. And this is marked for
2 identification as P527B.
3 Q. So I'd simply ask you, looking at this intercept, if you can say
4 on what date this intercept is from?
5 A. Well, I would just like to clarify some things. I'm not sure
6 whether I'm looking at the right page because I have two documents before
7 me, so let me just find my bearings and see which document I should
8 really take a look at. Could you tell me the number of the document? Is
9 that page 03 --
10 Q. Excuse me, sir. It's the one you're looking at now. It's the
11 one behind the grey tab number 2.
12 A. Very well.
13 Q. And my question is simply: Can you say what date this intercept
14 is from?
15 A. The date of this communication I don't really see, but I do see
16 the frequency and the time when this conversation took place. I don't
17 see the date of the communication, nor do I see it on the document before
18 this one.
19 In other words, that would mean that the date of this intercept
20 was not really written down, but the time is.
21 Q. And, sir, can you see any date at the top of the report on the
22 page that you're looking at now?
23 A. Yes, I do see that. But before that report, it was crossed out,
24 and I assumed that that wasn't something you were asking me about. But
25 the first one -- yes, the date on the top of the page is the
1 27th of July, 1995. The 27th of July, 1995.
2 Q. And to confirm, sir, the page you're looking at, is that numbered
3 at the top 0320-4867?
4 A. 0320-4867, yes.
5 Q. Thank you, sir. Could I now ask you to look at the second yellow
6 sticker which is behind the tab number 4 in the packet, please.
7 MR. ELDERKIN: And this is 65 ter number 03214, again the version
8 can be B. And this is P529B, as marked.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and the date here is from
10 August 1995.
11 MR. ELDERKIN:
12 Q. Sir, when reviewing your Popovic testimony last week, did you
13 hear an audio recording of this conversation from August 1995?
14 A. Yes, I did.
15 Q. And can you say why the audio recording for this conversation in
16 particular survived when so many other audio recordings from that
17 time-period were not preserved?
18 A. Well, I cannot tell you exactly why it was preserved, but all the
19 intercepts that we recorded at the location where I was, after the shift
20 changes, some 10 or 15 days, at times the company commander would take
21 them and return them to the command. And that's where they were stored.
22 We did not keep them on site. It was actually done at the command
23 centre. And when our shift was relieved, then our commander would
24 collect all the papers and take them to the command. But why and which
25 intercepts were kept at the command, I really don't know. It was my
1 belief that they would re-listen to all of the intercepts, all of the
2 communications, and hear them again at the command; but why and which
3 ones were kept and whether they were, I really don't know.
4 Q. Sir, thank you very much.
5 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, I would ask for the admission of the
6 four intercepts in the packet which were all previously admitted through
7 this witness in the Popovic case, and they are 65 ter numbers
8 2956A and B, which is marked as P526; and, on the tender list, through
9 P529, which is 65 ter 03214, and that has parts A, B, and C, which is the
10 audio. And the indications as to which parts should be under seal are
11 marked on the tender list. I can read those out if Your Honours wish or
12 leave that just as it is on the list.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just a moment. I would like to check the numbers
14 to avoid any mistake.
15 MR. ELDERKIN: Sir -- Your Honour, it's 65 ter number
16 2956A and B, marked as P526; 65 ter --
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's not necessary to read it out. We have them
18 here on the list, but I just wanted to check the transcript.
19 MR. ELDERKIN: I apologise, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I am not sure if all of them have a translation.
21 P528A and B don't have a translation yet, so that this one will be marked
22 for identification; the others will be received. Those indicated under
23 seal will be received under seal.
24 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you, Your Honour. I understand from our
25 Case Manager that there is a translation available for that, so we'll
1 make sure that that makes its way into e-court.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
3 MR. ELDERKIN: And I have no further questions at this time.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
5 Witness, sir, now the accused, Mr. Tolimir, has the right to put
6 questions to you during his cross-examination.
7 Mr. Tolimir.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
9 I bless everybody in and outside of the courtroom, and I wish the
10 court proceedings to end in accordance with God's will and not my own
12 I wish to say hello to the witness.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the witness to
15 make a pause between question and answer so that the interpreters have
16 enough time to interpret what is being said, as we speak the same
17 language. Thank you.
18 Thank you. Can we show 1D143, please, thank you. In the
19 electronic courtroom. Can we show 1D143 in the e-court. This is his
21 And it should make it easier for him to follow the questions that
22 I'm going to be putting to him. Thank you.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: These documents shouldn't be broadcast.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:
1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Witness, we see the first page of the statement in Serbian, or in
3 your mother tongue, and in English, and you gave the statement on the
4 17th and 18th of November, 1999. Did you sign both of these statements?
5 A. My signature is to the right, and that is my signature. I think
6 if I signed that statement I must have signed the other one as well
7 because there is no signature on this other version. But I do remember
8 signing the statement.
9 Q. I just wanted to ask you if you remember signing the statement in
10 your mother tongue or only in English. Do you remember which one you
12 A. After so many years, I know that I did sign something. I don't
13 know whether I only signed the English version of the statement or the
14 other one because this is not an original document I assume. The one on
15 the right-hand side is. I really cannot remember after so many years
16 which one. I evidently did sign the one in English. That is my
18 Q. Since you did not sign the one in your mother tongue, I'm always
19 going to read to you what you said in the statement. And you're going to
20 tell me whether that is so or not, since I don't know whether you said
21 that and whether you signed it. Because what I'm looking at is actually
22 an unsigned statement. Thank you.
23 Thank you. In paragraph 6 of your statement, line 1, can you
24 please look at that paragraph. This is on page 2. We're going to just
25 take a moment to pull that up. Here it is, paragraph 6 on page 2.
1 You said that you worked at the civilian protection staff. We
2 have that in the first sentence. You said that you worked in the
3 civilian protection staff?
4 A. Yes, I did. I worked in the municipal staff for civilian
6 Q. Yes. This was until 1993, when you became the platoon commander
7 of the unit for electronic surveillance and communication warfare. Can
8 you please tell us when you moved from the civilian protection staff to
9 the B&H army? Thank you.
10 A. Well, in May 1992, the Executive Board of the Banovici
11 municipality, among other things, members who were in the municipal staff
12 appointed me to that post; and pursuant to the Executive Board of the
13 municipality's decision, I accepted and worked there throughout 1992 and
14 1993 almost. But since I and my friends and some other people discussed
15 this -- because the work in the municipal staff of civilian protection
16 was something that I didn't like very much because I preferred to work in
17 some kind of communications system. I like that better. So I wanted to
18 move on to some other things. However, during May 1992, I couldn't even
19 suspect how far all these events would go, so I thought that this would
20 be perhaps for a short period of time and then I accept that duty.
21 But this is how my friends and I talked, members of the -- of my
22 radio amateur club, the people that I worked with, who, right from the
23 beginning of the war, were like a communications unit attached to the
24 municipal staff of my municipality. And then sometime in 1993 talks
25 began about how we could help, what exactly we could do. And then there
1 was an idea that came up through some people for us to get in touch with
2 the people in the corps command. We knew what the potential of the
3 southern location was and how much it could do, because with my friends
4 and colleagues I was active from 1979 practically every month to work on
5 radio amateur communications systems at that location. We were allowed
6 to have access to that location --
7 Q. All right. I'm sorry to interrupt. I'm going to put a question
8 to you, and you can fit that into what you're saying.
9 A. That's all right.
10 Q. Before you came to this municipal civilian protection staff,
11 before the war, did you also work in that same staff before the war?
12 Thank you.
13 A. No, I didn't work there before the war. I worked on my regular
14 job in a company. I didn't have any contacts there. But what happened
15 was that my colleague in my profession who worked with me was appointed
16 shortly before I was appointed - maybe some 10 or 15 days - as commander
17 of the municipal civilian protection staff. So he got in touch with me
18 first; he thought I could help him in the implementation of some of his
19 plans and jobs in civilian protection regarding the protection of the
20 population and other things. And I did agree. And then on the basis of
21 that, the Assembly -- or rather, the Executive Board of the Assembly,
22 Municipal Assembly, appointed me also as a member of the staff.
23 Q. And you were in the southern location; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In paragraph 6 of your statement that we saw right now on the
1 screen and quoted in the last sentence, it says that you were demobilised
2 on the 15th of March, 1996; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, that is correct. That is what the certificate says.
4 Q. My question would be: Since you worked both in the southern and
5 the northern locations, what was the difference between the northern and
6 the southern location as far as the equipment that you used, the
7 apparatus that you used? Is there a major difference? Or if there
8 isn't, you could just say that there isn't any difference. Thank you.
9 A. There was no major difference. The equipment was similar or the
10 same. But the southern location provided greater capabilities for
11 eavesdropping because of its elevation of some 300 metres above sea
12 level. So it provided better work conditions.
13 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell us whether it ever happened that
14 the same document was recorded, the same conversation was recorded, both
15 on the southern and on the northern location. And if this did happen,
16 can you please tell us how this is possible. Thank you.
17 A. Well, you see that from the technical aspect it's a realistic
18 possibility. Not only did the same conversations get recorded at both
19 locations, but there was another unit other than my unit at the northern
20 facility which was doing some other things. And sometimes it would
21 happen that all of us would record the same conversation and then
22 everybody would dispatch that transcribed conversation to wherever they
23 were supposed to send that. And I don't know what happened after that,
24 where these conversations were passed on to, but this would happen
1 Q. Can you please tell us, Could you record the same participants in
2 the same radio network from the beginning of the conversation to the end,
3 could you note down their names; and was this recorded at the same time,
4 or was there any time difference when these conversations were recorded?
5 A. There was no time difference. It was all done simultaneously.
6 There was no delay. If something was being done, then it was being done
7 100 per cent at the same time. Perhaps there could be a couple of
8 minutes' difference in the report because somebody's clock was not
9 showing exactly the same time. These were units that had different
10 authorisations, different contacts. They didn't contact each other at
11 the northern location as far as their work was concerned.
12 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Please can you tell us if it's possible
13 for a conversation of two participants in the same network to be recorded
14 at the same time by the northern and the southern location, and would the
15 time of them have to be the same if they had both been recorded right
16 from the beginning? Thank you.
17 A. Well, I said that this was possible if the clocks were
18 synchronised. If they were not, if the clocks were showing different
19 times by a few minutes, then they would not be recorded as having been
20 recorded at the same time. But the conversation actually did take place
21 at the same time.
22 Q. If there was no time difference, it means that they were recorded
24 A. Yes, that is correct. But between the northern and the southern
25 location, what could have happened was, because their positions and their
1 azimuths was not the same, you could have the case where a conversation
2 recorded at the southern facility would not be able to hear one speaker
3 and at the northern location you could hear both participants, or you
4 couldn't hear the one that the other location could hear because the
5 angles of recording were different. So this is something that can
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, Mr. Tolimir, I had to stop you. May
8 I remind both speakers to slow down a little bit and not to overlap. It
9 is very difficult for the interpreters. Please carry on.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.
12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
13 Q. I said the same participants in the same radio network and that
14 everything was recorded at the same time, the frequency, the time, the
15 names, this is what I emphasise. And thank you.
16 And, now, can you please tell me, can you answer the following
17 question: Is it possible -- actually, how long did the conversations
18 that you recorded and that you have in this notebook here, how long did
19 they last?
20 A. Conversations would last for a couple of minutes or so. I never
21 timed them. But these were not long conversations.
22 Q. Would a conversation last for five minutes?
23 A. I never really thought about it. Possibly, possibly not.
24 Q. Look, look, can you please look at these conversations that are
25 in front of you and tell me whether any of them took longer than five
2 A. Well, the first one didn't.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 A. And let's look at this other one, yeah, that didn't last longer
5 than five minutes either. Yeah, these two conversations that I have
7 Q. Thank you. Thank you. So, in any case, no conversation took
8 longer than five minutes.
9 Were there any cases in your experiences, in your practice, that
10 a conversation took longer than five minutes, and were these official
11 conversations - thank you - that you recorded?
12 A. I did record conversations that were sometimes an hour long, but
13 I don't remember whether I ever actually transcribed any of those
14 conversations from the tape. Because of other duties, I usually didn't
15 have time to do that. So I would ask one of my younger soldiers who was
16 free to transcribe that conversation. But these were conversations that
17 were conducted by Mr. Karadzic, Biljana Plavsic, Krajisnik, Koljevic,
18 when they talked about their correspondence in London, in Moscow, Paris,
19 who gave them different kinds of advice and tricks to apply, including
20 the arrest and the tying up of those UNPROFOR soldiers. These were
21 suggestions that they received from abroad and which I heard. And I
22 recorded some of those conversations. But I don't remember transcribing
23 such a long conversation ever. I don't think that I ever did, no.
24 Q. On page 3 --
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 3 of the
1 witness's statement, paragraph 3 on page 3.
2 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
3 Q. You can see it, and you said:
4 "When an operator heard a voice, he would stop the scanner and
5 turn it to the appropriate channel."
6 Did you say that? Did you state that? Thank you.
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 Q. Thank you. My question is: How long did you need to stop the
9 scanner, adjust the channel, and begin the recording of the conversation?
10 Thank you.
11 A. In order to stop the channel, you needed less than a second; and
12 then in the second second, you could -- or second or two, you could go
13 back those two or three channels and then the conversation would be
14 recorded. When the scanning stopped, you needed two seconds at the most
15 to activate the button on the tape recorder and to begin taping the
16 conversations. So it was a very short amount of time. From the moment
17 we heard the conversation, we could begin recording it within a second or
19 Q. Thank you. Can you explain to us, would you lose anything of the
20 conversation that was important? And on the basis of the rest of the
21 conversation, could you figure out what was being talked about in that
22 one second? Thank you.
23 A. Well, look at this. It's evident that there is a large number of
24 conversations where it is clearly stated that the recording was not --
25 that the conversation was not recorded from the beginning. What does
1 that mean? There were 24 channels at the radio relay system; they were
2 scanned within a few seconds. We would adjust the speed, whether this
3 would take 3, 5, or 7 seconds to scan. And then what could happen simply
4 is that we would not hear the beginning of a conversation for a number of
5 reasons. One of the reasons was that we were not near that channel, so
6 it was necessary to get there. Also, once we got to the channel, perhaps
7 the participants at that moment were not speaking. So it was quiet for a
8 second or two, so we wouldn't hear anything. But if something was heard,
9 a change of tone in the signal, then it would be enough just to push the
10 button on the tape recorder and the recording would begin -- actually,
11 the receiver button, not the tape recorder button. Then the scanning
12 would stop, we would go back one or two channels that we had skipped, and
13 we would come to the conversation, and we would immediately or
14 simultaneously, at the same time, begin recording.
15 And that's why we have conversations that were not recorded from
16 the beginning. What we didn't hear from the beginning, we would simply
17 say, The conversation was not recorded from the beginning. And then we
18 heard and began, we would start writing it.
19 Q. Thank you. I understood you. So we just heard from you that the
20 scanning takes about a second before you can actually press the necessary
21 buttons. Now, please tell us, what happens - as you described in
22 paragraph 4, in lines 1, 2, and 3 - where you said:
23 "Sometimes after the operator recorded a conversation and turned
24 the scanner back on, he would hear the middle of another conversation on
25 a different channel. When this happened, he would immediately begin
1 recording it, but the first part of that conversation would be lost."
2 Just a moment, please, for the transcript.
3 A. Yes, I understand.
4 Q. Thank you. Now, could you please explain, What did you do in
5 case where you had a conversation that had been lost or where you had the
6 conversation that you started monitoring at halfway?
7 A. Well, what we mean here by "lost," means that it was lost. We
8 did not discuss it nor did we think about it. We did not record it, so
9 it wasn't ever presented as having taken place. We would just say that
10 the conversation was not recorded from the start and that it was recorded
11 from the moment where it started and then onward. And then we would
12 transcribe that into a notebook. Then it would be typed into a computer,
13 where the computer would send it to another computer, and so on.
14 Q. Thank you. But my question was: Would you preserve the portion
15 of the conversation that you managed to actually monitor?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. [Microphone not activated]
18 THE INTERPRETER: The accused did not turn on his microphone.
19 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
20 Q. And on page 37, that's one paragraph before last in your
21 statement, where you say that there were some other people with you at
22 the southern location - you mentioned their names here; I won't read them
23 out because I don't want us to go into closed session - but could you
24 please tell us what did these people do? Because you said in your
25 statement that they did similar work to yours.
1 A. Well, where I said that it was similar work, in signals
2 communication and in the Yugoslav Army this was a broad field. These
3 people actually dealt in signals work, so they actually monitored; they
4 did surveillance. They were on a high elevation, and they transmitted
5 and maintained communications within the BH Army. Their job was
6 different. They had their own work to do. They had different
7 facilities. And I never asked about their work. And as a person who was
8 well acquainted with the communications work, I did -- I knew what they
9 were doing.
10 Q. Thank you. So they actually recorded radio communications?
11 A. No, no, they did not. They would just maintain the networks.
12 There was the -- these digiputer communications where they would
13 communicate between two different computers at two different elevations,
14 and they would then forward those communications on and so on. So that
15 was the kind of work they did.
16 Q. Thank you. But could you tell us now whether you yourself
17 actually listened in on conversations within the BH Army?
18 A. No, we never engaged in that kind of work. We did not monitor
19 the communications within the BH Army, but we did monitor the
20 communications in the Serbian army.
21 Q. Thank you. Now, is it normal and regular practice, standard
22 practice, in all armies in the world, that signals units would actually
23 control the work of the -- and the communications that were transmitted
24 within their own ranks and not only those that were transmitted in the
25 enemy ranks?
1 A. Well, you see, my task was only to monitor the communications of
2 the Republika Srpska Army. It is possible that there was someone else
3 who would do the same kind of work. But monitoring the communications
4 within the BH Army, I don't know about that. I don't know anything about
5 that. But, personally, I was never involved in that kind of work nor was
6 it my job. And I did not really take this seriously as being a military
7 type operation, although when I was in the Yugoslav Army I was pretty
8 well informed of how the system worked within an organised army. But
9 this was a different type of operation, a different scale and scope, and
10 we just did the work as we did it.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now show the witness
13 page 4 of his statement.
14 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
15 Q. And, Witness, would you please look at the first paragraph
16 because I would like to put a question to you about what you said there.
17 You say in the third sentence of the first paragraph on page 4 -- can you
18 see that? Can you see the third sentence, the third line?
19 A. Is that in the first paragraph?
20 Q. Yes. The third sentence in the first paragraph.
21 A. Yes, I can see it.
22 Q. In English that will be on an earlier page. You say here in the
23 third sentence:
24 "At the end of each shift, the company commander of the
25 2nd Corps," captain so and so, "would usually come to pick us up, and he
1 would bring with him the relief shift. Then we would hand-over all the
2 notebooks that we had and the tapes. Before we left the facility, we
3 would have a meeting in order to convey all the relevant information to
4 the new squad."
5 My question is: If this is correct, if this is what you said,
6 then I would -- first of all, I would like to ask you: Is it -- was this
7 correctly recorded? Is this what you said?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. Well, then my question is this: When did you begin to receive
10 these notebooks that the commander would then take to the corps command
11 at the end of the shift? Thank you.
12 A. Well, I couldn't really tell you when exactly this practice
13 began. At first we just transcribed all these conversations on bits of
14 paper which we would then burn; but then someone from the command - I
15 don't know if it was the company commander or someone else -- sometime in
16 1994 I believe, I can't recall exactly at what time, these notebooks
17 appeared. And at first we didn't quite understand what they were for.
18 At the time I couldn't even imagine that some day they would be used the
19 way they're used here today. Because up until then we had destroyed a
20 lot of such materials and -- up until 1994. But then when these
21 notebooks appeared, then we began writing everything down in the
22 notebooks and that that was what was preserved.
23 Q. Thank you. Now, could you tell us whether these notebooks were
24 certified in any way, and why was it that you had to return them, and
25 were you issued these notebooks? Thank you.
1 A. I cannot remember whether I had to sign any receipt or anything
2 for these notebooks because the practice was that when the next shift
3 arrived all the tapes that had been recorded by the previous shift or
4 that they had taken to the centre for re-listening and deleting if
5 necessary -- so it was normal for those notebooks, too, to be sent
6 together with the tapes, primarily because I was pretty certain that
7 somebody would listen to the tapes again. There were people at the
8 command who would do this work at the command. They would analyse all
9 the recorded intercepts, and then they would figure out the units, their
10 areas of responsibility, their areas of operation, the names of the
11 individuals in charge of those units, what locations they were at, and so
12 on; because this would help you then draw up or get a picture of the
13 Republika Srpska Army and their command structure and system. So to me,
14 this seemed so normal that I didn't really pay any particular attention
15 to it because I had no idea that some day they would be used for anything
17 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us now whether all these four intercepts
18 in notebook 22 that you mention in paragraph 4 of your statement, whether
19 these are those four intercepts? Thank you.
20 A. Do you mean the four intercepts that I actually -- the four
21 conversations that I recorded?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. Well, yes. These were the conversations that I recorded myself,
24 transcribed them, and then I signed them; although there were numerous
25 intercepts that I made, but I did not transcribe them. And then I did
1 not sign off on that. Somebody else would have had to do it in my place.
2 Q. Thank you. Please take a look at paragraph 5 of your statement
3 where you say that you recorded these conversations at the frequency
4 255.80 [as interpreted], and you say that at around 10.00 you recorded
5 these two conversations. Can you see that?
6 A. No, I can't find that. I can't see that, I'm sorry.
7 Q. It says 10 -- at 1000, 1000 hours, that's what it says in the
8 first line. Can you find that? Can you see it? Can you see 1000 hours
9 in the first line of paragraph 5?
10 "I was asked to look at a conversation in notebook 22, page 12,
11 timed at 1000 hours ..."
12 You can see it on the monitors -- on the monitor before you. Is
13 that what you stated?
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: That's paragraph 5 on
15 page 4.
16 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Before this -- before these numbers, 1 and 2, can you see:
18 "I was asked to look at a conversation in notebook 22, page 12,
19 timed at 1000 hours ..."
20 Can you see it?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So my question for you is: Who was it that asked you to look at
23 this conversation and when?
24 A. Well, this was during the proofing session. I think when I first
25 came to The Hague to testify, this must have been at least ten years ago.
1 I think this was in 2001 or so, so I can't really tell you who it was who
2 asked me, but it was here on the premises of the Tribunal during a
3 proofing session where I was asked what I recorded, what I transcribed,
4 and so on. And about this one, I said that I wasn't the one who recorded
5 that conversation but that I was present while there and that it was done
6 by somebody else.
7 Q. So this wasn't a conversation that you actually intercepted and
8 recorded; correct?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Thank you. Is it possible that somebody at the northern location
11 recorded this same conversation at the same time, at the same frequency,
13 A. Not only was there a person at the northern location, but it was
14 actually recorded there.
15 Q. Well, is it possible that it was recorded at the northern
16 location five minutes later?
17 A. No way, unless the clocks were not synchronised, there was some
18 error with the time.
19 Q. [Microphone not activated]
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Can you see the last sentence here? You say at the last -- in
23 the last sentence on page 4 you say:
24 "On November 17th, 1999, I provided a sample of my handwriting
25 and did not have access to any notebook while doing so."
1 Is this something that you stated?
2 A. Well, obviously if that's how it's recorded then that's what I
4 Q. Thank you. Now, my question is: Who was it who took a sample of
5 your handwriting and why was it done and did you ever find out what the
6 outcome was?
7 A. Well, you see, in November 1999 when I gave my
8 statement - because I don't know who else might have given a statement
9 and given their samples of handwritings, but I can speak for myself -- I
10 won't mention the names of any other people for different reasons, but I
11 know who they were, and, if necessary, I can tell you their names. But
12 these were people who came to check what knowledge we had, what kind of
13 experience we had, and what kind of work we had done. And, of course, I
14 did give my sample -- a sample of my handwriting because I'm sure that if
15 someone found notes that I wrote, they would be able to actually
16 recognise my handwriting. So I only provided a sample. I don't know how
17 many words or sentences I wrote down. So I only gave a sample so that
18 they could compare it with a text that they had.
19 Q. Thank you. Where did -- where was it that you gave this sample
20 of your handwriting? Here at the Tribunal or ...
21 A. No, this was at my place of residence. It was a one-time
22 National Defence Secretariat office building; that was what it used to
23 be. Where it was at the time when I provided my -- the sample of my
24 handwriting, I don't recall anymore.
25 Q. Were there any representatives of The Hague Tribunal on the
1 premises while you were giving a sample of your handwriting?
2 A. I don't know whether it was just my understanding, but I
3 believe -- I believed so because knowing the persons that I met with
4 later on I think that was the case. But I'm not sure whether both those
5 people were there because I didn't see this other individual, this other
6 person was an interpreter. But I can't tell you precisely whether she
7 was or wasn't there.
8 Q. Thank you. So was this sample of your handwriting taken from you
9 by the person who conducted this interview with you?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you. Tell us, please, speaking of notebooks and
12 handwriting, you mention notebook 22, which I just mentioned a moment
13 ago. Was there a cover page; do you recall? And what did it look like?
14 A. Well, you see, when we first received these notebooks, they did
15 not look very serious. They were funny. These were notebooks for
16 elementary school students. There were some pictures on their covers,
17 and they were coloured. And this was unusual for the type of work that
18 we did, which was serious. But these were notebooks that were probably
19 provided by some humanitarian organisation for -- as aid for schools and
20 school children, and that's how we got a number of such notebooks.
21 Q. And can you please tell us what was written on that notebook,
22 number 22, that you got?
23 A. That was -- it just had the number on it, because the notebooks
24 were numbered.
25 Q. Were there any drawings or pictures on it?
1 A. They all had pictures or different drawings. I don't exactly
2 remember what was on notebook number 22. I didn't really analyse the
4 Q. Thank you. We're coming back, now, to paragraph number 1 on
5 page 4 of this statement of yours where you say that -- in the third
6 sentence -- actually, in the one sentence but last -- actually, in the
7 last sentence you say:
8 "Before leaving the site, a briefing would be held to make the
9 incoming squad aware of relevant information."
10 Did you say that? Thank you.
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. My question is: Who would give the briefing, and what were the
13 contents of the briefing? Thank you.
14 A. The briefing would be given by the commander of the company. I
15 was there as the platoon commander. Also, the commanders of the squads
16 were there because they replaced each other, and the squads were from two
17 different locations, two different towns. We didn't really have
18 contacts. So then when we were handing over the shift, it was customary
19 to inform them about the problems; the dynamics; what was happening in
20 our shift; the directions that needed to be monitored, depending on where
21 the combat actions were taking place at that particular time. The
22 incoming shift had to be informed about all the issues relating to the
23 previous shift.
24 Q. Can you please tell me if you informed the soldiers about the
25 situation at the front in the area of responsibility of the units that
1 they were listening in on? Thank you.
2 A. I don't know which soldiers you mean. Are you thinking of my
3 soldiers specifically or some others?
4 Q. I'm thinking of those that you would brief before leaving your
5 shift. Would you inform them what the situation was on the front among
6 those that you were listening in on?
7 A. Sometimes it was necessary to, for example, give information in
8 the event of the Olovo front where the situation was very tense. When
9 the shifts switched, we would warn the next shift so that it would
10 approach their assignments with greater responsibility and seriousness in
11 order to be able to carry out their assignment successfully. We would
12 expect the next shift to treat their assignments with the same
13 seriousness and professionalism that we did.
14 Q. Since this was a complex situation and it was necessary to
15 monitor a number of columns, the breakthrough of the units, the situation
16 among the population, would you inform them of those matters as well, and
17 what did you tell them if you were informing them about this kind of
18 situation as well?
19 A. Since we were listening in on the main axes, which included the
20 main Serbian forces and the General Staff, we would pass on the
21 information that they exchanged amongst themselves about certain
22 activities and affairs. This is what we would pass on. We didn't know
23 what was going on in some units, however. And ultimately this was not
24 something that we recorded and that was not something that we could talk
1 I myself personally at the beginning had no idea until these
2 events came to light later exactly what was going on, and I found out
3 about a lot of things only later. At the time when the activities were
4 actually ongoing, we didn't write down and we didn't know what was going
5 on in the other units. I don't have any other information and didn't
6 have any information about that.
7 Q. Since you've been a radio amateur for a long time and you've been
8 working on communications and things like that, did you ever attend any
9 training or courses on these topics?
10 A. I've attended lots of courses. For at least 20 years I was
11 recruited by the chief or communications commander of the
12 then-5th Army District. They wanted me to join the army and become
13 active. I never liked the army, never accepted that, and I don't regret
14 not joining to this very day. I attended many courses, including those
15 for encryption and deciphering of encryption, other than courses that had
16 to do with actual communications.
17 Q. Other than courses in the JNA, did you attend any courses in any
18 other organisations?
19 A. No. I never attended any other courses outside of those in the
20 JNA on these particular matters, but I learned a lot about ham radio
21 operators, the types of communications, things like that. If I were to
22 tell somebody about all the types of communications that ham radio
23 operators use, they probably wouldn't believe me to this very day.
24 Q. Did you ever travel abroad during the war? Thank you.
25 A. No, I didn't, not during the war. Up until the war and after the
1 war, I did; but during the war, I did not.
2 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your specific and
3 professional answers. Thank you for the conversation that we had. I
4 wish you a safe journey and return home, and may God bless you.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have completed my
6 cross-examination of this witness. Thank you.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir.
8 Mr. Elderkin, do you have re-examination?
9 MR. ELDERKIN: No, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: At this stage, I would like to ask you,
11 Mr. Elderkin, do you wish to withdraw materials previously tendered and
12 marked for identification for this witness? I think we have to talk
13 about P530 through P540 and P544 through P547. These are on your exhibit
14 list, but not admitted today. What is your intention?
15 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, I'm just following that on the
16 marked tendered list. So I understand, obviously, that the previously
17 admitted exhibits, which I see all bear the 200 series numbers, are
18 already in. I would withdraw the ones that you just mentioned.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, are there any objections from the
20 Defence to the Prosecution withdrawing these materials?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We don't
22 have any objection. The only thing is that we would like it always to be
23 like that. When a document is being tendered, we would like to know more
24 about it because the number doesn't really say anything about the
25 contents. Thank you.
1 [Defence counsel confer]
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Elderkin and myself, we were referring to the
3 list of documents tendered by the Prosecution through this witness, a
4 list prepared by the Registry yesterday. The Chamber, therefore, orders
5 that the exhibits identified by the Prosecution as having been withdrawn
6 from the record have their status changed to "marked but not admitted."
7 In future, the Chamber expects the Prosecution to clearly
8 indicate on the record and in a timely manner if it decides to withdraw
9 any materials previously offered into evidence.
10 MR. ELDERKIN: Understood. Thank you, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
12 Mr. ...
13 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Some other matters I just received from
15 Madam Registrar: The information that the document P528A and B in fact
16 have a translation, so that they will be received as well.
17 Mr. Tolimir, you used the OTP statement with this witness. Are
18 you tendering it?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I don't
20 wish to tender the statement. The witness acknowledged that he had said
21 everything that is written in the statement. Thank you.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, this concludes the examination. You are now
25 free to return to your normal activities and to your place of residence.
1 Thank you very much for your attendance here. And the Chamber wants to
2 express its gratitude and all the best for your future. Thank you very
3 much again.
4 I think it could be a convenient time to have the first break now
5 so that the witness can be -- can leave the courtroom protected. We
6 should have the first break now and resume ten minutes -- no, five
7 minutes past 4.00.
8 --- Recess taken at 3.37 p.m.
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 --- On resuming at 4.11 p.m.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could the next witness be brought in.
12 Mr. Elderkin.
13 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, while we're waiting for the next
14 witness, I wanted to raise one point which I think might just be a very
15 minor housekeeping. There is one of the intercepts which is taken down
16 by this witness in his handwriting, in fact, has already been admitted.
17 It's P278A. And it's described in e-court as being an intercept dated
18 the 14th of July, 1995, 11.49 hours, handwritten from notebook 84.
19 I've checked, and it's actually an intercept from notebook 1,
20 Your Honours. I wanted to state that on the record, and I'm not sure
21 what process we need to follow if we want to change the description in
23 But it's simply a matter for record that I showed the accused's
24 legal advisor this afternoon. I think it's agreed that that's correct.
25 [The witness entered court]
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you please indicate the 65 ter number in
2 your exhibit list, then we can identify the document better.
3 MR. ELDERKIN: It's 65 ter 2978A, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
5 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon, sir. Would you please read aloud
7 the affirmation on the card which is shown to you now.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
9 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 WITNESS: PW-042
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. And, now, please sit down.
13 Mr. Elderkin, your correction you have made in the list of
14 documents, it's now on the record, and I think it's correct that you are
15 referring to notebook number 1. Thank you.
16 Mr. Elderkin, you may proceed with the witness. Please be
17 reminded, as Mr. Tolimir as well, that you switch off the microphone
18 while the witness is speaking. Thank you.
19 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you, Your Honours, yes.
20 Examination by Mr. Elderkin:
21 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. As you know, my name is
22 Rupert Elderkin. And before we get started, I'd ask for you to make sure
23 that you leave a pause after your answers so that the interpreters have
24 time to keep up with us. And also, as you have the protective measure of
25 voice protection, as the President has mentioned, please don't speak
1 while you see the red light at the top of my microphone. And I'll switch
2 it off when I've finished asking my questions.
3 If I ask you anything that's unclear to you, then please say so
4 and I'll do my best to rephrase my question.
5 MR. ELDERKIN: Could I start, first of all, by asking for
6 65 ter 6298, which is marked as P558, to be shown. And it should not be
7 broadcast, please.
8 Q. Sir, without saying aloud what is written on the screen, can you
9 please confirm if that is your name?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. ELDERKIN: I'd ask, Your Honours, for that to be admitted
13 under seal.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received under seal.
15 MR. ELDERKIN:
16 Q. Sir, do you recall testifying here in January 2007?
17 A. I do.
18 Q. And did you have a chance to listen to that testimony in your
19 language yesterday?
20 A. Yes, I listened to my entire testimony.
21 Q. Does that testimony fairly, accurately, and truthfully reflect
22 what you would say if you were asked the same questions in court today?
23 A. Well, it wouldn't be identical probably, but the context of all
24 the answers would be the same, yes.
25 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, I'd move now to have the witness's
1 2007 testimony admitted. It's 65 ter 6299, which is marked as P556 and
2 is under seal; and the public version is 65 ter 6300, marked as P557.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Both will be received, the first under seal.
4 MR. ELDERKIN: And --
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, is there any problem with the
6 monitor? We can pause a short moment. I think the problem will be
7 solved. Thank you.
8 Please carry on.
9 MR. ELDERKIN: And again, with permission, Your Honours, I'd like
10 to read a very brief summary of the witness's evidence, which is based on
11 his Popovic testimony and also on the underlying witness statement used
12 for that testimony.
13 If we could start in private session, please, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
15 MR. ELDERKIN: The witness completed his mandatory --
16 [Private session]
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session.
9 MR. ELDERKIN: One month later, he was transferred to the
10 ABiH 2nd Corps' electronic reconnaissance and anti-electronic activities
11 unit, based at the northern location. He remained in this post until he
12 left the army in 1997. The witness was on duty as an intercept operator
13 at the northern location in July of 1995. At the time, he was able to
14 identify individual voices, including Zivanovic, Krstic, Pantic, and
15 Legenda. He identified seven intercepts from July 1995 as being in his
16 handwriting, and he confirmed that he transcribed them on the dates that
17 they were intercepted.
18 I have a few further questions, with Your Honours' permission.
19 And I'd ask for the usher to hand the witness a file containing
20 some intercepts.
21 Q. Sir, yesterday did you have a chance to review this file?
22 A. I've reviewed it.
23 Q. And the file contains both handwritten and printed versions of
24 12 intercepted conversations; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did you also see the original handwritten notebooks containing
2 the 12 intercepts?
3 A. I did see the original notebook.
4 Q. And did the intercepts in the blue file you have in front of you
5 correspond with the original notebooks?
6 A. They are identical in terms of content, so the intercepts in the
7 notebook and the ones that are typed out are identical.
8 Q. Can you confirm that all 12 intercepts in the file are in your
10 A. All the 12 intercepts are in my handwriting.
11 Q. Did you intercept and transcribe all 12 conversations?
12 A. I intercepted all 12 of them and transcribed them into notebooks.
13 Q. And for each of those 12 intercepts, did you have a chance
14 yesterday also to see the print-out versions of the intercepts in the
16 A. I also saw the printed-out version.
17 Q. Do the printed versions correspond to the handwritten intercepts?
18 A. They do correspond; they're identical, the printed version and
19 the handwritten version.
20 Q. Sir, generally, when you were working as an intercept operator,
21 how soon after intercepting a conversation did you transcribe it into a
23 A. Well, we did not transcribe every conversation. Depending on how
24 clear the recording is and how clear the voice is -- in other words,
25 those conversations that were clearer, that could be heard more clearly,
1 they would be transcribed more quickly into notebooks; whereas with those
2 conversations where you couldn't understand some parts, we had to repeat
3 them and re-listen to them several times in order to verify the
4 understanding and what we had written down in the notebooks.
5 Q. But would the transcription nevertheless take place on or about
6 the day on which the conversation was intercepted?
7 A. The intercepts were transcribed immediately, as soon as the
8 conversation between the participants ended. So the conversations would
9 be transcribed as soon as the conversation ended, and they would be
10 transcribed in notebooks.
11 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, I would, at this point, request the
12 admission of all 12 of these intercepts. Seven of the intercepts were
13 previously admitted through the witness in the Popovic case, and they are
14 on the tender list marked as P549 through P555. And the five intercepts
15 which were not previously admitted through this witness are P559 through
16 P563, and the tender list indicates which versions should be under seal.
17 And, in addition, I would request the admission of the witness's
18 May 1999 statement which was the underlying statement of his evidence
19 used in the Popovic case and admitted in that case, and that's marked as
20 P548, under seal.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And which intercepts are contained in the file we
22 have received in hard copy?
23 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, all 12 intercepts are in the file.
24 The first seven tabs in the file contain the seven previously admitted
25 intercepts, and the five additional intercepts are at tabs 8 through 12.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. They will be received. And I think
2 they all have a translation so that they will be received, some of them
3 under seal as indicated on the list.
4 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you very much, Your Honours. And I have no
5 further questions for the witness at this stage.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
7 Sir, now the accused has the right to put questions to you.
8 Mr. Tolimir.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:
11 Q. [Interpretation] And good afternoon, Witness. I hope you have a
12 pleasant stay here. And I would like to say to you, as Mr. Elderkin did,
13 that we need to make pauses between questions and answers in order for
14 the transcript to be properly recorded. Thank you.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please show in e-court
16 the statement of this witness. The number is 0087-5367 -- or rather,
17 this document: P584 [as interpreted].
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ...
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we show the first page of the
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... to interrupt.
22 P548. P548, because it was recorded as P584. Thank you.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] P584.
24 Thank you.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Once again, you are referring to which OTP
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I see it already in
3 e-court. Could we just also see the version in the native tongue of this
4 witness so that he can follow my questions. Thank you.
5 THE REGISTRAR: This is Exhibit P548.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I apologise to the
7 Presiding Judge. You were correct. It is P548. I apologise. I mixed
8 up the numbers. Thank you.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. Please carry on.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Witness, what you can see on the monitor is -- on the left-hand
13 side, you can see your statement in your mother tongue; and on the
14 right-hand side, it's the English translation. This is your statement
15 provided on the 7th and the 11th of May, 1999.
16 Tell us, please, did you sign these statements? Thank you.
17 A. The signature and -- on the English version is mine.
18 Q. Thank you. And did you also sign your statement in your mother
19 tongue? Thank you.
20 A. I cannot really recall. I can't tell you whether I did or didn't
21 sign it in the mother tongue.
22 Q. Thank you. As you cannot say it for certain, I will quote
23 portions of your statement. And then what you need to do is just confirm
24 that you've actually said that or not. Thank you.
25 Did you understand me?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please see page 2 of
4 this statement.
5 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
6 Q. And, Witness, would you please take a look at paragraph 3. We
7 can see it already before us.
8 Tell me, please, were you employed at the Secretariat for
9 National Defence in the place as stated in the statement? Thank you.
10 A. Yes, I was.
11 Q. Thank you. Did you work there until 1988? Thank you.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you. What did you do as of 1988? And if you were
14 employed, were you still employed within some military structures or
15 armed forces? Thank you.
16 A. I was not employed with the military. I worked in a company as a
17 ONO/DSZ desk officer, and you know what that referred to.
18 Q. Thank you. Did you receive your salary from the federal organs?
19 Thank you.
20 A. Which period are you referring to when you're asking me about my
22 Q. Thank you. Well, while you were at the Secretariat for
23 National Defence and at the time when you were a desk officer of DSZ/ONO.
24 Thank you.
25 A. While I was employed at the Secretariat for National Defence, we
1 were actually funded by the municipal authorities. And, after that, I
2 received my pay from the company where I was employed, not from any state
3 or government organs.
4 Q. Thank you. We have to explain for the transcript that ONO/DSZ
5 refers to All People's Defence and Social Self Protection. This is for
6 transcript purposes. Thank you.
7 Thank you. Now, in paragraph 4 you mentioned that you were
8 employed with the Territorial Defence. This is in the first line of
9 your -- of paragraph 4 of your statement? Thank you.
10 A. Well, when the war started in May 1992, the Territorial Defence
11 was established, and all citizens joined the Territorial Defence.
12 Q. Thank you. Did the BH Army take over all the Territorial Defence
13 units, as you state here? And this was also the manner in which your
14 brigade was formed. Thank you.
15 A. Well, after I was expelled from my hometown when I came to
16 another town, they already had a brigade that had been established
17 earlier, so we were just attached to that local brigade.
18 Q. Thank you. I was asking you about the brigades. Did this -- was
19 this brigade actually built on the one-time TO defence?
20 A. Well, the -- I joined the 107th Brigade in November 1992 at the
21 time when it had already been established. Now, as for what it had been
22 earlier, I really don't know.
23 Q. Thank you. When Mr. Elderkin asked you about this a little
24 earlier, that's what you confirmed. Thank you.
25 Please tell us, When did you start working as an intercept
1 operator and at what facilities?
2 A. Since 19 -- as of 1993, I was at the northern location.
3 Q. Thank you. Please take a look at paragraph 9 of your statement,
4 starting with the word "our task," as you can see here. That's the one
5 paragraph before last, one full paragraph before last. And in the last
6 sentence of that paragraph, you say:
7 "In order to do this, I would be expected to listen in on radio
8 communications for between three and eight hours, depending on how busy
9 we were. I would then have a period of rest."
10 Have I read out your statement correctly?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you. My question then is: Does this mean that you worked
13 on average five hours when you are referring to this time-period? Thank
15 A. Well, the time-frame was eight hours per shift. Now, how much
16 work we had at -- in that shift, that depended on the situation and the
17 radio communications.
18 Q. Thank you. But here in this paragraph you say that you worked
19 between 3.00 and 8.00 p.m. Does that mean that you spent five hours
20 listening-in on radio communications? Thank you.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, please, whether five hours of
23 monitoring networks and participants in radio communications would be a
24 very tiring exercise for an operator?
25 A. Well, that would depend on how busy the traffic was. It wasn't
1 that we had the same number of intercepts every day. Depending on how
2 busy the radio communications were would also -- we would be engaged for
3 that number of hours.
4 Q. Thank you. But if it was a busy day, would that affect the
5 quality and the hearing of the operators; or would the operators, because
6 they would get tired, actually become less efficient? Thank you.
7 A. Well, if we felt that we were tired or were not focused enough
8 and weren't able to do our job properly, then we would ask our colleagues
9 who were supposed to come and relieve us to come earlier. So the
10 following shift would then be asked to come earlier in order to relieve
12 Q. Thank you. Would you please take a look at paragraph 10 of your
13 statement, the penultimate sentence, that's the second sentence, you
14 say - that's on page 2, paragraph 10 of your statement - and you say the
16 "The commander would also give a briefing on occasions.
17 "The commander would also give a briefing on occasions."
18 Is that what you said?
19 A. Yes, I've seen it.
20 Q. Can you please tell us, What kind of briefings were these and
21 what type of instructions did the commander issue and what did they
22 relate to? Thank you.
23 A. The commander who was with us in the shift was responsible for
24 the axes, the frequencies that we were supposed to monitor at any given
25 time. If the commander was privy to some information that we needed to
1 change -- to alter some frequencies, he would come to the office where we
2 were working and would adjust the frequencies, and then we would monitor
3 those frequencies, whereas the frequencies that we had monitored earlier
4 would now be unmonitored.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
7 page 3 of the statement in B/C/S and the corresponding page in English in
8 order for the witness to be able to follow my questions. Thank you.
9 Thank you.
10 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Please take a look at paragraph 1, lines 6 and 7 in that
12 paragraph. You say the following:
13 "Transcribing sometimes involved listening in on a conversation
14 or parts of a conversation several times."
15 My question is this: Sir, please tell us, What was the
16 audibility at the site where you had to listen to a conversation on
17 several occasions? What -- how was -- was it intelligible, what you
18 heard, or was there jamming?
19 A. Well, transcribing the conversations -- or the intercepts,
20 actually, depended on -- not only on how well we could hear the
21 conversations but also depending on the participants. Because sometimes
22 there would be noises in the channel because these were communications
23 transmitted by air, and sometimes we had to listen to the same
24 conversation on several -- several times over in order to make sure that
25 the words that were said in the conversations were understood properly
1 and properly transcribed.
2 Q. Thank you. So this monitoring or listening to the conversations
3 only related to the intelligibility of what was being listened to;
4 correct? Just answer yes or no.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Please tell me, if you were unable to understand something, would
7 you then fill in the gaps, judging what it should read like, judging by
8 the context?
9 A. If I wasn't certain, while transcribing an intercept, I would ask
10 my colleagues to help me in order to transcribe the intercepted
11 conversations as correctly as possible.
12 Q. Thank you. Could you please now take a look at paragraph 4, it
13 consists of one sentence only, and relates to all the completed
14 notebooks. It says:
15 "Completed notebooks ..."
16 Those are the first words in paragraph 4 on page 3.
17 You say that they would be placed in an archive. Could you
18 describe this procedure. Thank you.
19 A. All the notebooks that we filled in at the location where we
20 worked when the shifts were changed were taken to the command, where they
21 would archive them, because filled notebooks did not stay at the location
22 where we were.
23 Q. Thank you. And can you please tell us, When this practice was
24 introduced, when was it introduced as compared to the length of time that
25 you worked at that location where you worked? Thank you.
1 A. When I came to the northern location, it was immediately the
2 practice that all the completed notebooks on the change-over of the
3 shifts would be taken to the command.
4 Q. Thank you. Do you know why they were kept there, and were there
5 any exceptions, for example, that somebody would keep a notebook with
6 them? Thank you.
7 A. The notebooks were not kept at the location, the ones that we
8 used to transcribe the conversations. As for what happened at the
9 command, I really don't know anything about that, so I wouldn't be able
10 to tell you what happened with the notebooks.
11 Q. Can you please look at paragraph 4 of your statement where you
13 "I have been asked if the same message was ever recorded and
14 transcribed twice. I can confirm that this did happen occasionally,
15 usually when the same conversations were monitored on different
16 frequencies by different sites."
17 My question to you is: Could you please explain what you meant
18 by this sentence, and when did this happen? Thank you.
19 A. The communications systems themselves had a number of
20 transmissions systems, a number of transmitters, and they reached
21 specific locations along a specific channel or frequency, and then they
22 were rerouted along a different channel and frequency. So what is
23 written here actually relates to the actual transmission technology used
24 to transmit information.
25 Q. Thank you. When you say "another location," do you mean the
1 northern or the southern location, or some other location that happened
2 to be in the north or the south? Thank you.
3 A. I'm speaking about colleagues who worked in the southern
4 location; this would apply to them.
5 Q. Thank you. How do you know that the same conversations were
6 recorded, both at the northern and southern locations, if you didn't have
7 the transcripts? Thank you.
8 A. Well, we would often meet and exchange views and experiences.
9 And when we were handing over shifts, if something like this happened,
10 this would be pointed out to us by our superiors.
11 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Can you please tell us if you recall any
12 case where both the southern and the northern location would record a
13 conversation with both speakers, and were the conversations recorded from
14 the beginning to the end or was only a part of the conversation recorded?
15 If you can remember. Thank you.
16 A. I really couldn't specifically answer that.
17 Q. Thank you. Are you able to tell the Trial Chamber here if the
18 northern and southern locations recorded the same speakers on the same
19 network and same frequency at the same time, would the contents and the
20 time of the conversation have to be identical? Thank you.
21 A. It was hard to record one conversation at both locations on the
22 same frequency. These would usually be different frequencies. Sometimes
23 it would happen that one of the speakers couldn't be heard on one
24 frequency and the other speaker couldn't be heard on the other frequency
25 that was being listened to by the other location.
1 Q. If the northern location was listening to one frequency and the
2 southern location was listening to another frequency on the same radio
3 network and they would catch the beginning of the conversation where both
4 speakers could be picked up and were able to be identified, would both
5 the locations be writing down the contents and the time that the
6 conversations were recorded? Thank you.
7 A. The conversations that were picked up and transcribed at a
8 different location, I wasn't able to see. Only what I transcribed at my
9 location and what my colleagues transcribed at my location I was able to
10 see. That was that. I didn't have access to the transcripts by
11 colleagues from another location.
12 Q. I'm asking you as a person who was intercepting conversation. If
13 both speakers were identified at the beginning of a conversation, both at
14 the southern and the northern location, and the contents of the
15 conversation were the same, should the same time be written at both
16 locations as the beginning time of the conversation? Thank you.
17 A. Yes, the same time should be written in. Or perhaps there could
18 be a very short difference, depending on when the device at the said
19 location identified that conversation at that channel.
20 Q. Thank you. And what do you mean when you say a brief period of
21 time? How long is that brief period of time? Thank you.
22 A. Each device that we worked on had several channels that were
23 automatically searched. Each device would search a certain number of
24 channels, and for that it needed a certain amount of time.
25 Q. Thank you. How much time did it need for this scanning?
1 A. I cannot really say. I never timed it, but it was not a long
2 amount of time.
3 Q. Was that period measured in seconds or minutes? Thank you.
4 A. It was measured in tenths of seconds.
5 Q. Thank you. I'm satisfied with the answer. We're now moving to
6 the sixth passage of your statement. We're still on page 3. Can you
7 look at the sixth paragraph. Thank you. In the first sentence of the
8 sixth paragraph, you say:
9 "On Tuesday, 11th May, 1999, I was shown a notebook with a tree
10 and an elephant on the front cover. The book is marked with the
11 number 97. I can confirm this is the type of notebook we used to
12 transcribe the conversations in 1995."
13 Did I quote you correctly? Thank you.
14 A. At the bottom, what it says is "to transcribe," not "to scan" the
16 Q. Thank you. You're correct. I misread what it said there. But
17 is that what you said? Does this correctly reflect what you said?
18 A. Yes, it does.
19 Q. Thank you. Can you now please tell us, If that is so, what else
20 was written on the notebook, and what did this tree and this elephant
21 mean to you at the time? Thank you.
22 A. The tree and the elephant were on the hard cover of the notebook.
23 There were these different figures on the notebooks depending on the kind
24 of notebooks we got. Some of them had animals, some were chequered --
25 had chequered covers. It depended on what we received from the command.
1 Q. Thank you. And was that notebook shown to you? Oh, we're just
2 making a pause for the transcript. Excuse me.
3 Was that notebook shown to you at the Tribunal for the first
4 time, and how come that it reached the Tribunal? How did that happen?
5 Thank you.
6 A. As you can see at the top - and I confirmed that - I saw that
7 notebook then. I didn't ask the gentleman from the Tribunal how they
8 obtained the notebook. Probably it was through their channels or they
9 asked their superiors to give them this notebook.
10 Q. Thank you. Thank you. I apologise. Because of the transcript,
11 we are going to wait a little with our question.
12 Did you have any contacts with the Tribunal staff before you came
13 to be interviewed on the 7th of November when you gave your interview to
14 this gentleman and this lady? Thank you.
15 A. As you can see, I was there on the 11th of May, 1999. That was
16 the first contact I had with these gentlemen.
17 Q. Thank you. I understand that the first contacts were on the
18 7th and the 11th of May. I understand that. I'm asking you if you had
19 any contacts with anyone from the Tribunal before that or from the army
20 who discussed these notebooks with you?
21 A. The notebooks that we used, including the one that is marked
22 here, I saw for the first time on this date here.
23 Q. Thank you. I understand.
24 Can we now look at paragraph 8 of this statement of yours. This
25 is still on page 3. It's the last sentence of your statement.
1 Have you read it?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And is it correct what is stated there, what you said there?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell us, Who did you replace at the
6 end of their shift, and did that person write the date only or did they
7 also write a part of the conversation?
8 A. Well, as far as exactly whom, there were a number of us in the
9 group who worked together and there was a number of people working in the
10 shift that we replaced. So I really couldn't give you the first and last
11 name of the person that I took the shift over from.
12 Q. Did you transcribe that entire conversation, or was the -- a part
13 of that conversation also transcribed by that other person whose name you
14 cannot give me? Thank you.
15 A. According to what I said at the top, this means that if my
16 whole -- if the whole conversation was in -- transcribed in handwriting,
17 it means that I recorded it and I transcribed it.
18 Q. But you said that some other person entered the information in?
19 Thank you.
20 A. The person only wrote in the date in the notebook. The person
21 that I took over from actually wrote the date. The rest of the
22 transcript was mine.
23 Q. Thank you. And can you please tell me -- can you please tell me
24 whether you always wrote in the date and time at the beginning of a
25 conversation? Thank you.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Elderkin.
2 MR. ELDERKIN: Excuse me. Your Honours, in case it would assist,
3 I don't know if the line of questioning will go further, but we have the
4 original notebook here in court, should General Tolimir wish to use it
5 himself or pass it on to the witness.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for that offer.
7 Witness, do you remember the last question of Mr. Tolimir?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About the last paragraph, if I
9 wrote in the date and the time and the transcript of the conversation, is
10 that what you meant?
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Is there a question there?
13 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Thank you. I asked you whether you wrote the date and time
15 before each conversation. Thank you.
16 A. The dates were written at the beginning of each day, and the time
17 when the conversations were transcribed was written each -- next to each
18 of the conversation, the frequency and the time that the conversation was
20 Q. Thank you. We have 12 intercepts here that you allegedly
21 recorded and transcribed and others typed in. Are all these
22 conversations conversations where you wrote in the time and the date, or
23 are there any conversations where there is no date at the beginning?
24 Thank you. Thank you. And you can take a look at them yourself.
25 A. There isn't a date in front of each conversation, when they were
1 transcribed and written into the notebook, but there is a time and the
2 frequency accompanying each conversation as well as the channel from
3 which the conversation was taken.
4 Q. All right. So there is no date. Well, we could look at 0 -- at
5 conversation 0230523 [as interpreted]. This is the first conversation
6 marked with the number 1. Have you found the conversation? It's
7 attached, and it's in your mother tongue. It says "Armija of Bosnia and
8 Herzegovina" at the top of the page.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Elderkin.
10 MR. ELDERKIN: Again, Your Honours, you may have guessed, but I
11 just wanted to say that we have all the notebooks for the 12
12 conversations here, should it be required.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
14 [Defence counsel confer]
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
16 Thank you, Mr. Elderkin.
17 I would like you to look at conversation number P549. Or,
18 generally, you can look at the first two conversations, both in the
19 English and the mother tongue of the witness, that are shown here as his
20 intercepts. And then we can check whether there is a time and a date in
21 front of each one.
22 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
23 Q. If you leaf through the documents, we only looked at those in
24 binder 1 that are marked with a number 1, both in the English and the
25 Serbian -- or, rather, your mother tongue. There is no date. I would
1 like you now to look at this document, which we have in the English and
2 in the Serbian here, which was provided from the Army of Bosnia and
3 Herzegovina under number 0320-5323 here in the register. Do you have
4 that document?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. I'm asking you to look at document 0320-5323, and it's under
7 number 1, and it's been translated. These are the last three pages.
8 Actually, what we're looking at is the last of the three pages at the
9 back. Do you have it?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. It says at the top "Army of the Republic of Bosnia and
12 Herzegovina ..." and so on and so forth. Daily report sent to the
13 intelligence organ, and then this is underlined. Thank you. There is
14 just the frequency, the channel, and the time. There is no time in the
15 time, there is no date. Is that correct?
16 A. Well, the frequency and the channel and the time were noted by
17 us, whereas the date would have been added by the signals officer at the
18 site from which this report was sent to the command.
19 Q. Would this be a signals officer at your site or someone at the
20 command? Thank you.
21 A. Well, we had a signals officer or operator on our premises, we
22 sent all the transcripts to him, and then he would forward them to the
24 Q. Thank you. So how could he know what the date would be when you
25 did not mark that on the document itself?
1 A. Well, all of these transcripts and intercepts, once noted in the
2 notebook, would be sent to him, and then he would forward it to the
4 Q. Thank you. I understood that. I understood your words. Now, my
5 next question is: Why did he use a dotted line here to separate the
6 heading and the date from the contents of the intercepts that we see are
7 being reported here? Thank you.
8 A. Well, I cannot really tell you because the way these reports were
9 sent and the way he forwarded the intercepts to the command was something
10 that we had no insight into.
11 Q. Thank you. Please tell us, Is this the first time that you see
12 these intercepts and the transcribed conversations typed up? Is it the
13 first time that you've seen them here at this Tribunal?
14 A. I saw the first seven the last time I was here.
15 Q. Thank you. So that means that you actually saw them for the
16 first time when you came to testify here in 2007; correct? Thank you.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, please, if you look at the last page
19 of your statement --
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please show it in e-court.
21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
22 Q. You say here -- let's wait for it to come up on the monitors.
23 That's PP48 [as interpreted] the last -- fourth page. Thank you.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. We see the first page.
25 Now could we see the last -- fourth page. Thank you.
1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
2 Q. We see here that the sentence reads:
3 "I have given a sample of my handwriting by re-writing a section
4 of the relevant conversation without having reference to the notebook.
7 And your signature, that we do not have?
8 My question is this: Why did you provide a sample of your
9 handwriting, and why did you draw up a sketch of the facilities? Was it
10 because the person asking for this actually had some doubts about you
11 being the person who intercepted these conversations? Thank you.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before you give the answer, I would like to
13 mention that the lines 13 and 14 of page 59 should be redacted. The
14 northern location - it was just a very short mistake - was mentioned, and
15 that has to be redacted.
16 Please carry on -- no, please, Witness, answer the question.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I did my best not to
18 mention the site; but if it did enter the transcript, please do as you
20 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Could you tell us, please, why did you provide a sample of your
22 handwriting for comparison purposes? Thank you.
23 A. The investigator who was there at the time, he requested it.
24 Probably in order to verify that the notebooks that were shown to me and
25 that I identified as my handwriting -- in order for them to be able to
1 authenticate the handwriting.
2 Q. Thank you. And my next question is this --
3 Let's pause for the transcript.
4 Now, why did you draw a sketch of the layout of the facilities in
5 which you worked? Thank you.
6 A. Probably I was asked to do that, to draw a sketch of the layout
7 of the location or the site where I worked.
8 Q. Thank you. Did you suspect that perhaps someone asked for this
9 because they were doubting the identity of the individual they were
10 having the interview with being the same individual who actually
11 intercepted these conversations?
12 A. Well, this was probably a way for them to verify that I was in
13 fact on those premises of those facilities and that I did the work that I
15 Q. My next question is: Have you ever attended any on-the-job
16 training relating to intercepts and interception of conversations? Thank
18 A. I did not attend any special training.
19 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, Did you ever attend some general
20 course or anything similar, what -- because you said you didn't attend
21 any on-the-job training, so what did you mean by that?
22 A. Well, I didn't attend any training in order to be able to join in
23 the work of this group that was involved in this. I was simply attached
24 to this unit as a signals officer. And as I had some previous
25 experience, I was able to adjust quickly to the unit which I joined
1 originally. And probably my superiors realised that I could do this
2 work, so they assigned me to that post.
3 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us, please, whether you ever attended,
4 during the war, any kind of training that had to do with interception?
5 A. Well, I told you a moment ago that I was never trained for the
6 work that I did here.
7 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us whether you travelled abroad during
8 the war or after the war? In order to be trained, were you sent to some
9 centres for specialised training for intercept operators?
10 A. I never travelled anywhere, either within Bosnia and Herzegovina
11 or abroad, for this purpose.
12 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us whether any of the foreigners, the
13 SFOR, UNPROFOR, or any other intelligence services, ever contacted you or
14 had any contacts with you during the war. Thank you.
15 A. I had no direct contact with any individuals from any of the
16 services you mentioned.
17 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us whether you had any other type of
18 contacts, indirect perhaps?
19 A. No, I had no direct or indirect contacts with any individuals
20 from these services.
21 Q. Thank you, Witness, for your answers during your testimony.
22 Thank you for providing answers to our questions. And I wish you a safe
23 stay here, and God bless you.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further
25 questions for this witness, and I would like to thank him for everything.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir.
2 Mr. Elderkin, do you have re-examination?
3 MR. ELDERKIN: No, Your Honours, I do not.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 Questioned by the Court:
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, perhaps you can help me with one or two
8 matters. We have heard during the cross-examination something about
9 intercepting from two different locations, the northern and the southern
10 site, and that sometimes the same conversation was intercepted by both
11 locations. And you were asked about the time noted on the intercept in
12 the notebook. Is -- did you and your colleagues take any measures to
13 make clear that you are intercepting really at the same time? Do you
14 compare the watches, your clocks you were using, for noting down the
16 A. Could you please just clarify whether you mean synchronising the
17 watches with colleagues at the other location, not the ones -- not the
18 one where I was?
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: With the other location, yes.
20 A. There was no synchronising of clocks or watches with them.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
22 And the other matter relates to the date of intercepting. I --
23 Mr. Tolimir quoted something from -- especially this intercept, P549, and
24 we have always the two versions, the handwriting with translation and the
25 transcribed with translation. Could you tell me - and you look at tab 1
1 of this little binder - who inserted the date 14th of July, 1995, at the
2 transcribed version of this intercept in the Bosnian language? This is
3 the fourth part of tab 1. You see on the top a date, 14th of July, 1995.
4 Who inserted this date?
5 A. I told Mr. Tolimir a moment ago that this wasn't inserted by us.
6 It is possible that this was done by the signals officer who forwarded
7 the intercepts to the command, or perhaps it was added at the command
8 when it was received from our site, the date when the intercepts were
9 received from the site.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And who was it who typed this version in the
11 Bosnian language, the whole intercept in the Bosnian language? Who typed
12 it? Which starts "On 11.15 a.m. ..."
13 A. I couldn't tell you specifically whether this was done by the
14 signals operator who worked at the same site where I was or whether this
15 was inserted by the radio or signals operator at the command itself, but
16 I couldn't tell you with certainty who.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perhaps you didn't understand my question. If
18 you look at tab 1, we have four different versions of a certain
19 communication. The first is a typed version of the second part, which is
20 your handwriting as we have heard. Then we have a translation, typed
21 again. And the fourth portion of the last three pages under tab 1, the
22 first page is crossed out, but we can read it. Who typed this version?
23 It's the full text of the intercept. Can you help us with this
25 A. As for the intercept that is crossed out, I can't tell you who
1 wrote it or who typed it up. It is not the one that is the same as the
2 handwritten version at the very beginning, which was in my handwriting.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You see three pages: The first; and on the
4 second you see that a certain portion is crossed out; and on the third
5 page on the bottom as well. And in between we have a portion, 11.49.
6 This is the time. You can't tell us who typed it?
7 A. Well, it's the same case as with the crossed-out intercept. I
8 can only confirm about the 1849 intercept, that it is identical and
9 consistent with the intercept written by hand. As for who typed this on
10 a typewriter, I really can't tell you. But these conversations are
11 identical to the handwritten conversation.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
13 Judge Mindua has a question.
14 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Maybe we need to go into private session because I would like to
16 re-visit the witness's resume.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
18 [Private session]
11 Page 3035 redacted. Private session.
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, you will be pleased to hear that this
2 concludes the questioning for you. Thank you very much that you were
3 able to come to The Hague again and to assist us. And now you are free
4 to return to your normal activities and your place of residence. Thank
5 you very much again. And the Court Officer will assist you when we rise
6 and have our second break.
7 I think it's a convenient time now. We have our break now and
8 resume at 6.00.
9 --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.
10 [The witness withdrew]
11 --- On resuming at 6.03 p.m.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon, Ms. Chittenden.
13 But you are rising, Mr. Elderkin.
14 MR. ELDERKIN: Yes, Your Honours. Excuse me. And this is just
15 very briefly relating to the last witness. I wanted to make something
16 clear about the packet that we all had before us with the witness. I
17 noticed towards the end from the Bench's questions you referred to -- the
18 witness to a page where there was some crossing out, and I wanted to make
19 it 100 per cent clear that the crossing through of the preceding
20 intercepts both in handwritten and printed versions was done by myself in
21 order to clearly identify which is the intercept relating to the witness
22 by each tab. I know there's not been consistent practice from the
23 Prosecution on that; I understand that I'm the odd one out. And I didn't
24 want to leave the impression that those markings are part of the original
1 Sorry, I would just add that in e-court you'll see there are no
2 markings. That's that represents the original documentation.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think that's clear. Thank you very much for
4 this clarification. But, on the other hand, it was very helpful to
5 indicate which part is the same in the other versions of this transcript.
6 Thank you.
7 MR. ELDERKIN: Having said, Your Honours, if I may be excused for
8 the rest of the session.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, please.
10 Welcome, Ms. Chittenden. Is the next witness ready?
11 MS. CHITTENDEN: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours,
12 everyone in the courtroom.
13 Yes, our next witness is ready. He is number 112, and he will be
14 known by the pseudonym PW-045. He will be testifying today with face and
15 voice distortion.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The witness should be brought in.
17 [The witness entered court]
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon, sir. Could you please stand and
19 wait a moment so that the screens could be opened.
20 Thank you, sir, for your patience. Again, welcome to the
21 Tribunal. Good afternoon.
22 Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the card which is
23 shown to you now.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
25 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 WITNESS: PW-045
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Please sit down.
4 Ms. Chittenden from the Prosecution has some questions for you, I
6 Ms. Chittenden.
7 MS. CHITTENDEN: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Examination by Ms. Chittenden:
9 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
10 A. Good afternoon.
11 Q. We met yesterday. My name is Caitlin Chittenden, and I'll be
12 asking you some questions today on behalf of the Office of the
14 MS. CHITTENDEN: Please could we have Exhibit P574 in e-court.
15 Q. Witness, you'll see something coming up on the screen in front of
16 you now. Please could you read it to yourself and confirm that it's your
17 name written next to PW-045.
18 A. Yes.
19 MS. CHITTENDEN: Your Honours, I would like to tender this into
20 evidence as an exhibit under seal.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received as Exhibit P574, under seal.
22 MS. CHITTENDEN:
23 Q. Witness, do you recall testifying in the case of Prosecutor
24 versus Popovic on 23 and 24 January 2007?
25 A. I do.
1 Q. Was your testimony at that time truthful and accurate?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Have you had the opportunity to listen to your Popovic testimony
4 again before coming here today?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And if you were asked the same questions again in court today,
7 would you answer in the same way?
8 A. Yes.
9 MS. CHITTENDEN: Your Honours, I would like to offer the
10 witness's testimony in the Popovic case into evidence at this time. It
11 is Exhibit P572, which is the under seal version; and P573, the public
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, they will be received.
14 MS. CHITTENDEN: Your Honours, at this time I would also like to
15 offer into evidence the eight exhibits admitted in conjunction with this
16 witness's testimony in the Popovic case. The first exhibit I was -- I
17 would like to offer is P4 -- sorry, P564, under seal. This is the
18 witness's statement to the OTP on 23 January 2007, and this statement was
19 admitted in Popovic as the underlying 92 ter statement.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
21 MS. CHITTENDEN: I would also like to offer into evidence the
22 seven intercepts identified by this witness in his Popovic testimony and
23 which were admitted as exhibits through this witness in the Popovic case.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, they will be received too.
25 MS. CHITTENDEN: Thank you. For the record, the exhibit numbers
1 are P565A and B through P571A and B.
2 Your Honours, I would now like to read a summary of the witness's
4 Q. Witness, after I read out the summary, I'll have a few further
5 questions for you.
6 MS. CHITTENDEN: In July 1994, the witness was mobilised into the
7 ABiH. Prior to that, he was a member of the civil protection. On
8 11 July 1994, the witness was assigned to the ABiH 2nd Corps
9 Anti-Electronic Warfare Unit, or PEB, at the southern site. For the
10 first two months, he was assigned to work at attempting to jam VRS
11 communications. After that, he worked exclusively as an intercept
13 The witness followed the established practice at the southern
14 site for intercepting, recording, and transcribing communications, as is
15 set out in his OTP witness statement, paragraphs 4 and 5, which, for the
16 record, is Exhibit P564. He did not type, encrypt, or transmit
17 print-outs of intercepts; other officers were in charge of that duty.
18 The witness continued working at the southern site until
19 September or October 1995, at which time he was assigned to the northern
20 site. There he continued his work as an intercept operator for the
21 ABiH 2nd Corps. He was demobilised in February 1996. In the offices of
22 the OTP on 23 January 2007, the witness reviewed a binder containing
23 photocopies of eight handwritten intercepts. By his handwriting, the
24 witness recognised seven out of the eight handwritten intercepts as
25 conversations he had intercepted, recorded, and transcribed. The witness
1 also reviewed the print-out versions and confirmed that they corresponded
2 to the seven handwritten intercepts he had transcribed. He then reviewed
3 the original notebooks and confirmed that the copies of those seven
4 intercepts he reviewed conformed to the original notebooks.
5 Your Honours, that concludes my summary. I now have just a few
6 short questions to ask the witness, if I may.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please proceed.
8 MS. CHITTENDEN: Thank you.
9 Q. Witness, I would like to show you a booklet of 12 intercepts that
10 we have compiled.
11 MS. CHITTENDEN: Please, could I ask for the assistance of the
12 Court Usher.
13 Your Honours, this packet of intercepts includes the seven
14 intercepts already admitted as a result of this witness's testimony in
15 Popovic. And, for the record, these are Exhibits 565A and B through 571A
16 and B. This packet of intercepts also includes five additional
17 intercepts not shown to the witness in the Popovic case. For the record,
18 these Exhibits are P575A and B through P579A and B.
19 Q. Witness, can you take a moment to look through each of the
20 12 handwritten intercepts in this booklet and tell the Trial Chamber if
21 you recognise your handwriting on these 12 intercepts. Just take your
23 A. Yes, these are my intercepts.
24 Q. Thank you. Did you review these 12 intercepts before your
25 testimony today?
1 A. Yes, yesterday.
2 Q. Did you also review the typewritten print-out versions of these
3 12 intercepts?
4 A. I did.
5 Q. Did you also review the original notebooks containing these
6 12 intercepts?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And do the copies of those 12 intercepts conform to the original
9 notebooks that you looked at?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Witness, can you confirm for the Trial Chamber today that you
12 were the intercept operator who recorded and transcribed those
13 12 intercepts?
14 A. Yes.
15 MS. CHITTENDEN: Your Honours, at this time, I would now like to
16 offer into evidence the five additional intercepts contained in this
17 booklet that the witness has identified as his. For the --
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: They will be received with the numbers they have
19 already got by the Registry.
20 MS. CHITTENDEN: Thank you. For the record, that's P575A and B
21 through P579A and B, with the under seal marked on the Registry list.
22 Thank you, Your Honours. I have no further questions for this
24 Q. Thank you, Witness.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
1 Mr. Tolimir, do you have questions for the witness in your
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I do
4 have a few questions for this witness.
5 I would like to greet the witness and all those present in the
6 courtroom. I would like to greet Ms. Chittenden.
7 And I would like to ask the witness to pause between question and
8 answer so that the transcript includes everything that we say. Thank
9 you. When I finish the question, I'm going to say "thank you," and then
10 after that you can wait 2 or 3 seconds and then begin your answer. Thank
12 Can we show document P564 in the e-court, both in the English and
13 Serbian version, so that the witness could see them. Thank you.
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:
17 (redacted). Can you please tell us where you gave this
18 statement and whether you signed it. Thank you.
19 A. I gave the statement here when I came to testify, and I signed my
21 Q. Did you sign the copy in your mother tongue or in English? Do
22 you understand English sufficiently to be able to sign it in English?
23 A. The signature is in the English copy. It's on the statement that
24 is in English.
25 Q. Thank you. So you signed the statement in English and not in
1 your mother tongue. Thank you. Can you please say that for the
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In that case, I'm going to read to you from your statement so
5 that you can tell me whether you actually said that, because there is no
6 signature on that version of the statement, so that we can verify that.
7 I'm always going to ask you whether you said that or not, and
8 then you can answer with a yes or no, and then I can put my question to
9 you. Thank you.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we show the witness page 2 of
11 his statement, paragraph 3.
12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Witness, I would like to ask you not to approach
7 the microphone when you give your answer. Just sit, relax, and answer
8 the questions. Everybody will understand you. Thank you.
9 Please carry on, Mr. Tolimir.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Witness, sir, if we look at page 2 of your statement,
14 paragraph 4, that is marked by the number 4, lines 5 and 6, where you say
15 that you transcribed all the intercepts and that others were in charge of
16 encryption and transmission of these intercepts; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can you please tell us whether you ever saw what the others typed
19 and checked whether that was identical to what you wrote? Did you ever
20 see typed transcripts of the documents that you had transcribed?
21 A. I never had access to those computers. This was something that
22 was done by specific people. Our assignment was to intercept and to
23 transcribe the conversations only.
24 Q. Thank you. We see here these 12 intercepted conversations that
25 we referred to a little bit earlier in the examination-in-chief by
1 Ms. Chittenden, and if we look at the conversations from 1 to 5, this
2 log-book of the intercepts, we will see in each one of them that the
3 dates were entered, and then underneath that the strictly confidential
4 numbers, and then later this was underlined with a dotted line. Do you
5 see that? Thank you.
6 A. You mean on the screen?
7 Q. Thank you. No. I'm thinking of the binder that you have in
8 front of you. If you look at the typed-out intercept -- for example, the
9 first typed intercept, 0320-4640, that's that number, do you see that
10 number on the document, in your mother tongue? Thank you.
11 And this is marked with a number 1 in that set of documents that
12 you have. This is 565B.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 565B for those who are following in
14 the English. Thank you.
15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Have you found the last two pages where that conversation is
17 typed out?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is it underlined with a dotted line after the indication of the
20 date and the strictly confidential marking? Thank you.
21 A. I don't see it underlined by a dotted line.
22 Q. Thank you. I have it in front of me. 0320-4640. It says that
23 in the upper right-hand corner, and here you have it on the screen. And
24 you can see underneath the words "izvjesstaj," "report," there is a line,
25 a dotted line there. Do you see it there?
1 A. Yes, yes, I can see it now. I understood you to mean that the
2 place where the time is given that that's the place that was supposed to
3 be underlined. But beneath the word "report," there is a dotted line.
4 Q. Please can you tell us who put this strictly confidential number
5 and this log number? Is it in the log-book of the corps? Did this
6 enter -- was this entered by the automatic data processing unit or by
7 somebody at the southern location?
8 A. You mean this hand [as interpreted] in the upper right-hand
9 corner, 0324640 [as interpreted]?
10 Q. No, I'm thinking of the strictly confidential number 08/1607.
11 A. I don't know who entered that. Probably someone at the corps,
12 the 2nd Corps, who was in charge of that.
13 Q. Thank you. Tell us, please, did you ever see typed up the
14 transcripts that you wrote down in the notebook when you transcribed the
16 A. I didn't understand the question. What time-period are you
17 referring to when you say "typed up"?
18 Q. Well, did you ever see typed up the transcripts that you
19 transcribed by hand into the notebook? Thank you.
20 A. Yes. Only here at the Tribunal, not during the war.
21 Q. Thank you. Please look at page 2, paragraph 6. You can see it
22 on the monitor.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please pull up the witness
24 statement in e-court, that's page 2, paragraph 6. The document is
25 5564 [as interpreted] I'm being told by my assistant. Thank you.
1 Thank you. We don't have it on the monitors. Page 2 of the
2 statement in the mother tongue, could we please have it on the left-hand
3 side of the monitor. Yes, thank you. Now we have it.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: For the record, this is P564.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We have
6 the statement, both in English and in Serbian, before us.
7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Please take a look at paragraph 6 in your mother tongue, and
9 there you state the following: You say that you worked both at the
10 south -- southern and the northern site. Could you please just confirm
11 that? Thank you.
12 A. Yes, that's correct.
13 Q. Could you please tell us whether the equipment was similar at the
14 site where you worked first, the southern site, and the northern site.
15 And if there was a difference in the equipment used, what was it?
16 A. I really can't recall, and I couldn't answer that question now.
17 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us whether you were engaged in
18 intercepting and listening in on conversations at the northern site as
19 well as on the southern site?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you. Tell us, please, in view of the equipment used at
22 both of these sites, was it possible to record participants at the same
23 time at both of these sites?
24 A. I cannot really confirm that.
25 Q. Thank you. Did it ever occur to you that a conversation that you
1 recorded was also recorded at the southern site while you were at the
2 northern site? Thank you.
3 A. I'm sorry, I don't understand your question. What do you mean
4 the same conversation?
5 Q. Well, if the intercept operator at the southern site recorded two
6 participants in a conversation in a radio network from beginning to end
7 of their conversation, so that he can identify the time when this
8 conversation started and ended, if it happened that the same conversation
9 was recorded and taped at the other site, would it be the case that that
10 would be recorded there as well and transcribed?
11 A. I don't know. We would receive the frequencies that we were
12 supposed to monitor, and then we would just listen in on those
13 conversations at the -- on those frequencies. So we received these from
14 our superiors, and all we did is just listen in on those conversations,
15 on those frequencies, and write them down.
16 Q. Thank you. Now, if we look at the intercepts that you wrote down
17 by hand in the notebook, you only noted the dates, as you mentioned a bit
18 earlier, these dates were only added at the centre for automatic data
19 processing --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please repeat the last part
21 of his question. The interpreter did not catch it.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For instance, on page 1 it says
23 here when this conversation began, and I wrote that down, or any of my
24 colleagues who were doing the same work that I did, they would indicate
25 the time when they started recording a certain conversation.
1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Thank you. So the time -- the hour was recorded, but the date
3 was not actually entered there; it was only added on the page where the
4 strictly confidential number was also indicated; is that correct or not?
5 Thank you.
6 Please leaf through including -- up to number 5. Let's not waste
7 time. Just look at the first five, please.
8 A. Yes, there is only the time of when the recording of the
9 conversation began. That's the only thing that is indicated there.
10 Q. Thank you. You said that you were also involved in electronic
11 jamming; is that correct or not?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Could you please describe what that consisted of; what did you
15 A. Well, I only did that when I joined the unit. I couldn't really
16 recall every detail now as I sit here.
17 Q. Thank you. You said in your statement that you did not enter in
18 your own hand the -- in the notebook the conversation that is registered
19 under number 3. If you look at your statement, you will see that, at the
20 penultimate page at the bottom, there is a list 1 to 8 of various
21 intercepts, and you said that the one under number 3 was not written down
22 by you in the notebook. Is that correct or not?
23 A. Well, I would need to look at that intercept. I would need to
24 look at the original or maybe the copy.
25 Q. Very well. Well, we will now look at item 8 of your statement
1 where you say, and I quote:
2 "I recognise my handwriting on seven of the copies of the
3 handwritten intercepts. The copy of intercept number 3, marked with ERN
4 number 0078-1483-0078-1484 ..."
5 And then on page 3, it says:
6 "... at tab 3 is not in my handwriting."
7 You also say:
8 "I did not intercept, record, or transcribe this intercept. I
9 confirm that the other seven are in my handwriting."
10 Is this correct, what I've just read out? Is that something that
11 is in your statement? Is this something that you said while you were
13 A. Yes, but I would need to take a look at the intercept itself
14 and -- in order to verify the handwriting.
15 Q. Thank you. Perhaps my --
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. Chittenden.
17 MS. CHITTENDEN: Thank you. I was just concerned that the
18 witness was confused that we were referring to an intercept which is in
19 the booklet. And it's not in the booklet, as it was not identified as
20 his in Popovic. So I'm just worried that he shouldn't be looking through
21 the booklet looking for it. Thanks.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
23 Mr. Tolimir.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Were you shown -- look at number 3 here, please. Were you asked
2 to tell whether this one -- this intercept was yours and produced by you
3 and that because you didn't recognise it you said that you only
4 intercepted seven of these conversations?
5 A. I can't see it on the screen here.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please show the second
8 page so that the witness can see it. Thank you.
9 Thank you.
10 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Here, now you can see paragraph 8. Would you please read what it
12 says there and tell us whether this -- these are your words. Thank you.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Why did you say that when you gave this statement? Thank you.
15 A. When, on the 23rd of January, I was here, I was given a number of
16 intercepts to review and, by error, this intercept was included because
17 somebody probably erroneously believed that it was mine and I told them
18 that it wasn't.
19 Q. Thank you. Now, was this intercept then taken out of the binder
20 that you have before you?
21 A. Well, I need to take a look at the original because I cannot
22 really tell by just looking at this in this way. I would need to see the
23 notebook and then I could compare and tell you.
24 Q. Thank you. Do you have in your binder document 0078-1483 and
25 0078-1484? Now, if you look at the monitor, you will see that that's the
1 document under number 3. Now, please leaf through the binder that you
2 have before you and tell us whether that intercept exists there or not.
3 Thank you.
4 You can find this number in the upper right-hand corner.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I wonder if this procedure is really necessary.
6 We have heard from Ms. Chittenden that she didn't include this specific
7 intercept of the 23rd of July, 1995, with this number you have quoted.
8 It is not in this binder.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Could the witness please look at the right-hand side where it
11 says "typed-up report." And then, under 6, could he please compare the
12 last six digits of that document, whether that corresponds to what is
13 stated here, 0230-48 ... under 3 the report says 0320-4785.
14 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Is that the same print-out, the same report, as the one showing
16 the number 0320-4685?
17 A. Do you mean on page 3 of this document?
18 Q. Under number 3. Can you see where it says 0320-4785? Can you
19 see the first eight digits? Please take a look at the right-hand column.
20 A. On the monitor ?
21 Q. Yes. Someone just removed it from the screens.
22 A. No, no, I still have it before me.
23 Q. Well, I don't have it. I'm probably to blame.
24 Under number 3 on the right-hand -- in the right-hand column, do
25 you have number 0320-4785?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can you see, above that, under number 2, "0320-4658"?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. [Microphone not activated]
5 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone is off.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You need your microphone, Mr. Tolimir.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, could you please
9 repeat your question.
10 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Please take a look at number 2 on the right-hand side.
12 A. Yes, the print-out.
13 Q. Yes, it says 0320-4658. Can you see that?
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. Chittenden.
15 MS. CHITTENDEN: I'm sorry, can I ask Mr. Tolimir just to be
16 specific. When he's asking these questions, is he asking if the witness
17 is seeing it in paragraph 7, or is he asking if it's in the notebook? I
18 think the witness is a bit confused about where he should be looking.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, if you want to find out if this
20 specific intercept, not with the handwriting of this witness in the --
21 indicated in the OTP statement as number 3, if that is included in this
22 binder, it's very clear it is not; and nobody will find it. The witness
23 didn't find it, you didn't find it, and we all didn't find it in the
24 binder. What is the problem? I think it's quite clear that after the
25 OTP statement the witness has indicated that --
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you,
2 Mr. President.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... this specific
4 one was not from him, and so it is excluded from this binder.
5 What is your question?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would like to say
7 that on number 2 in the right-hand corner there is the number 0320-5658,
8 and I would like him to say whether it's not the same number as
9 0320-4685. And perhaps the last two numbers were reversed and that he
10 perhaps did write the conversation that is under that number in the book.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In the upper right-hand corner, it's not
12 0320-5658, but 4658.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. 5658. But the document
14 that we are looking at, the document says 0320-4685. Perhaps the last
15 two numbers, the 5 and the 8, were reversed. So I'm asking him perhaps
16 that conversation that he said he did not record is under that number.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The number under 2 states
18 0320-4658, not 4568, which is what you said.
19 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
20 Q. This is what I asked you, whether 46 also is in that report and
21 the one that you are looking at right now, the 0320-4658. Do you see
22 that in front of you? That is number 3 and the last one is number 12,
23 the last conversation?
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Everybody sees that.
25 Ms. Chittenden.
1 MS. CHITTENDEN: Yeah, I'm sorry, I was just wanting a bit more
2 clarity as well from Mr. Tolimir as to where the witness should be
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In tab 3 of the binder, the last document has
5 clearly the same number as on the screen under number 2, 0320-4658, and
6 the print-out B/C/S version.
7 What is the problem, Mr. Tolimir?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm asking the witness whether that
9 number holds report number 7, which he said -- which he refers to in
10 paragraph 3. Thank you.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I found item number 2, and that is
12 my intercepted conversation, this 4658 number.
13 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Thank you. Thank you. We're not going to waste any more time on
16 Can you please tell us, Last time you testified, when you drew
17 the attention of the Prosecution that you did not write this intercept
18 under number 3 the way you indicated in paragraph 8, can you please tell
19 us whether that conversation was excluded from the description of the
20 conversations that you wrote? Thank you.
21 A. I think that it was, yes.
22 Q. Thank you. So do we still have eight conversations like we had
23 the first time that you gave your statement or not? Thank you.
24 A. Where?
25 Q. In this register that you see in front of you, do you have eight?
1 A. I have 12. 12.
2 Q. Twelve, thank you. So other than the seven that you
3 acknowledged, five more were added. Are all five of them ones that you
4 wrote down?
5 A. Yes, they are.
6 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us whether the notebook that you used,
7 both at the northern and the southern locations, handed over -- was
8 handed over to your commander or whether you kept it for your own use?
9 A. Well, I could not have kept it to myself for any reason at all,
10 and it was handed over to my superiors for them to process it.
11 Q. That notebook, does that have the log number that the Prosecution
12 gave it, or was it recorded under the log number that was given to it by
13 somebody else from your service perhaps?
14 A. I don't know that.
15 Q. The register numbers that are in the log-book that is in front of
16 you for which you said you don't know where they were written in, the
17 typewritten ones, where it says "strictly confidential," were they
18 written in the log-book at your facility or in the log-book at your
19 corps? Thank you.
20 A. I've just answered that question. I don't know where this number
21 was written in.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have completed my
24 examination of this witness.
25 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Thank you for the answers that you gave us. I have no further
2 questions for you. I wish you a safe trip and happy future work and
3 life, and God bless you. Thank you.
4 A. Thank you.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And on behalf of the Defence, I
6 would like to thank all the interpreters and to all those who helped us
7 today, Mr. President. And that is all that I wish to say for today.
8 Thank you.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir.
10 Ms. Chittenden, do you have re-examination?
11 MS. CHITTENDEN: No, I don't. Thank you, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, this concludes your examination of today.
15 You are now free to return to your normal activities. The Chamber would
16 like to thank you for your attendance here in The Hague, and we wish you
17 all the best for your future. Thank you again.
18 We adjourn now, and we'll resume at an unusual time tomorrow.
19 Because of another commitment of myself, we resume tomorrow at 3.00. We
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.59 p.m.,
23 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 23rd
24 day of June, 2010, at 3.00 p.m.