Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3577

 1                           Wednesday, 7 July 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning to everybody in the courtroom and

 6     outside, but it's only for a short moment that we are in open session.

 7     The next witness will be heard in closed session.

 8             Are there any matters to raise by the parties?  If that is not

 9     the case, we should go into closed session.

10             Mr. Tolimir.

11             THE ACCUSED: [No Interpretation]

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  May there be peace in

14     this house for all those present and may God's will be done into these

15     proceedings and may the outcome be as God wishes and not as I wish.

16             Mr. President, I have been informed by my legal assistant about

17     the following witness.  The Defence intended to submit a response to the

18     Prosecution's motion about increasing the protective measures for the

19     witness who now has a designation 074.  The OTP, in addition to a

20     distorted image and voice, also wanted a closed session testimony, but we

21     would oppose to this motion.  The decision was made without allowing the

22     Defence to respond in any way whatsoever, and there was no dead-line for

23     submitting a response to the Prosecution's motion.  The Defence has not

24     been allowed to state its position, which in the Defence's view opposes

25     the right of the accused to a fair trial and especially his right to

Page 3578

 1     respond properly to any request by the Prosecution.

 2             I also wish to point out that in the situation where we do not

 3     have much time, abilities ought to be provided both -- to both parties to

 4     submit their requests, and I believe that proceeding in this way would

 5     not prevent the accused from defending.  We shall respect the decision of

 6     the Trial Chamber because I cannot change it, but we do not believe that

 7     the Prosecution should question any of the witnesses in closed session.

 8     Thank you.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, Mr. McCloskey, do you want to

10     respond?

11             MR. THAYER:  Good morning, Mr. President.  We have nothing to add

12     to the Appellate Chamber's decision.  Closed session is something that

13     the Prosecution does not favour, but when the circumstances warrant it,

14     we will apply to the appropriate Chamber for those measures, should the

15     circumstances warrant it.  This is one of those extraordinary or

16     exceptional circumstances.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you will realise that not the --

18     this Trial Chamber has rendered this decision but the Appeals Chamber who

19     is seised of the relevant first proceedings.  We are bound by that.  We

20     have no discretion to decide in a different way than the Appeals Chamber.

21     I think we should proceed.  It is not up to the Chamber to decide

22     anything on that matter.

23             We are now going into closed session.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I respect the

25     decision of the Appeals Chamber, but I shall not examine the witness in

Page 3579

 1     closed session.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 3                           [Closed session]

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

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10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

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13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

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25   (redacted)

Page 3580

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3                           [Open session]

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We are again in open session.  We have to discuss

 5     a procedural matter.  And first of all, Mr. Tolimir, the Chamber would

 6     like to know your position, how you want to deal with the Appeals Chamber

 7     decision on protective measures.  Are you intending to challenge this

 8     decision of the Appeals Chamber in any way?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I have

10     told you that I respect any decision of the Appeals Chamber.  I respect

11     the decisions of all Trial Chambers, including the Appeals Chamber.  I

12     have not been allowed to follow the procedure, and I shall not examine

13     the witness in closed session.  I will not even complain.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This Chamber is not in a position to discuss the

15     proceeding before the Appeals Chamber.  We are bound by the decision of

16     the Appeals Chamber.  We just want to know that you -- if you want to

17     challenge this decision by any means.  I take it now that you are not

18     going to challenge the decision of the Appeals Chamber; did I understand

19     you correctly?  Thank you.  You are nodding.  In this case, there will be

20     no different decision --

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If it is necessary for the

22     transcript, let me say that I will not challenge it.  I respect the

23     decisions of the Appeals Chamber.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Even if we would postpone

25     the examination of this witness, we will not find ourselves in a

Page 3581

 1     different situation.  The Appeals Chamber has rule on the application of

 2     the OTP and therefore if we hear the witness today, tomorrow, next week,

 3     or after the summer recess, there's no different situation.  This witness

 4     has to be heard in closed session.

 5             Then we could proceed and go into closed session.

 6             Mr. Thayer first.

 7             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I am a little unclear

 8     about what General Tolimir's position is going to be with respect to

 9     actually examining this witness.  We've heard him say that he respects

10     the Appeals Chamber's decision, but he will not, he says, examine this

11     witness in closed session.  It's unclear to me, at least, what that

12     means.  If it means that for some reason General Tolimir is going to be

13     standing down and somehow going on strike and refusing to exercise his

14     right of cross-examination because of the Appeals Chamber decision,

15     because he disagrees with it, number one, that's inconsistent with the

16     position he's taken; number two, we need to make that clear on the record

17     that that is in fact what's happening.

18             And if that's in fact what's happening, then that raises a larger

19     issue for the future of this trial, where we may have witnesses for whom

20     closed session measures will be requested.  That's -- if it does happen,

21     that's going to be a very small number of witnesses, I can assure

22     Your Honours, but I think it is very problematic to have the accused

23     essentially say, Well, if that's the way the Appeals Chamber is going to

24     rule, then I'm going to take my marbles and go home and not play.  And if

25     he wants to do that, that's his right as an accused.  However, we need to

Page 3582

 1     have that on the record.  He needs to be made clear that that is what

 2     he's doing, that he's doing that knowingly and willfully.  However, that

 3     also, in itself, I think, potentially sets a dangerous precedent for the

 4     conduct of the trial if he continues to take such positions where if he

 5     disagrees with something he decides that he is not going to participate

 6     any more.  I think we all share the desire to ensure that as --

 7     particularly as a self-represented accused, his fair rights are being

 8     preserved.  And I just want some clarity for the record about what he

 9     intends to do and what his position is for this witness and for the sake

10     of future witnesses.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, do you want to respond?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I do not

13     wish to play marbles here.  Let me repeat again my last sentence, which

14     was that the Defence was not allowed to express its view on this very

15     significant matter.  And in the Defence's view, this opposes the basic

16     rights of the accused to a fair and expeditious trial, especially the

17     accused's right to have the opportunity to follow the procedure as

18     envisaged by the rules and respond to the request of the OTP.  That was

19     all I had to say.  Thank you.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

22             MR. THAYER:  The Chamber's indulgence.  I just want to make the

23     Prosecution's position as clear as possible on this.  The Prosecution has

24     no objection were General Tolimir to decide to engage in some appellate

25     review of its decision.  We've got no problem with that.  We've got no

Page 3583

 1     problem with him exercising any of his rights to which is he is entitled

 2     under the statute and the practice of this Tribunal.  However, as you've

 3     indicated, Mr. President, whatever he decides to do in the

 4     Appellate Chamber or anywhere else has no bearing whatsoever as far as we

 5     can see upon the ability for this Trial Chamber to proceed with this

 6     witness today.  The only practical consequence of any future proceedings

 7     would be basically to unseal closed testimony.  It does not effect

 8     General Tolimir's ability to cross-examine this witness, prepare for this

 9     witness, or in any other way represent himself with respect to this

10     witness's testimony.  I just wanted to make that clear, number one.

11             Number 2, we've heard now a couple of times the representation by

12     General Tolimir that he was not allowed to somehow participate in this --

13     in this litigation with respect to our application for closed session.

14     That is simply incorrect.  He was properly placed on notice of this

15     urgent motion.  The Popovic team managed to file a response before the

16     Appeals Chamber.  We understand that everybody is working under time

17     constraints, but to suggest that he was denied some opportunity to

18     participate or to have his position articulated is simple incorrect.  He

19     just didn't move fast enough under the obvious urgency of the motion that

20     was filed, and the Appellate Chamber issued its ruling.

21             We had no indication that there was going to be any objection by

22     the Defence to this.  And, again, if he wants a second bite at the apple,

23     as it were, before the Appeals Chamber, no problem.  But that should not

24     slow us down in any way.  And, again, General Tolimir has not clarified

25     what he plans to do when this witness comes in here and we get through

Page 3584

 1     the 92 procedure.  Is he going to proceed with the cross-examination or

 2     not?  And if this accused cannot abide by some of the most fundamental

 3     precepts of this institution to -- he gives lip service to respecting any

 4     and all decisions by Chambers, but if he cannot abide by those simple

 5     rules and he is going to sit down and go home if he doesn't get his way,

 6     then at some point we may need to reconsider whether his

 7     self-representation status is appropriate, because it risks just stopping

 8     these proceedings if he persists.

 9             Now, again, this could be just a one-shot problem that we're

10     looking at, but he's had a couple of opportunities to do so and he has

11     not articulated what he plans to do.  That causes me great concern.  If

12     he can't tell the Trial Chamber, I'm going to cross-examine this witness,

13     I'm going to abide by the decision of the Appeals Chamber and go ahead

14     and exercise my right of cross-examination; if there's an alternative

15     that he wants to pursue, he needs to articulate that.  We need to know.

16     And he refuses to do that, again.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, what is your position?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I just expressed my

19     view a little while ago.  I told you what I think about the procedure

20     according to which this decision was made.  Mr. Thayer is trying to

21     convince me that I should change my decision.  He says the Appeals

22     Chamber decided that Mr. Tolimir should cross-examine.  The

23     Appeals Chamber decided that the testimony should be in closed session

24     and not that Tolimir has to question the witness.  So please let us not

25     discuss whether I respect something or not.  The Appeals Chamber decided

Page 3585

 1     that this would be in closed session.  I told you what I think about the

 2     procedure.

 3             The second thing, it is true that I did not receive it in time

 4     because it still has not been translated.  If it's just one page, then I

 5     could have received both the English original and the B/C/S translation.

 6     As the accused, I have not been informed about this because I did not

 7     receive the translation.  So please take into account what I said and let

 8     us not waste time.

 9             I apologise, I have told my assistant that I would submit a

10     request in accordance with the procedure, and I announced this to the OTP

11     three days ago.  And the OTP knew that I would submit a response to such

12     procedure.  Thank you.  That I would appeal.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please explain the last sentence; I

14     didn't understand that perfectly because ... did you indicate to the

15     Prosecution that you will -- sorry, I didn't finish yet.  You had a

16     discussion with your legal advisor.  I just want to know, Did you

17     indicate to the Prosecution that you will raise this problem before this

18     Chamber or if you would intend to appeal in any way to the

19     Appeals Chamber?  What did you indicate to the Prosecution?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Three

21     days ago, I announced to the Prosecution that the Defence would submit a

22     response to the Prosecution's motion that this witness be questioned in

23     closed session.  However, we were not allowed to do that.  The

24     Appeals Chamber did not respect the rules, and ruled as it did.  I do not

25     know if the OTP knew this or not, if it asked for an urgent decision.

Page 3586

 1     I'm just telling you what my legal assistant and myself did in

 2     consultation.  And this is all I wanted to say.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Again, another question, Mr. Tolimir:  Did you

 4     give any indication to the Appeals Chamber that you are intending to

 5     respond to the Prosecution motions?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  If I

 7     responded to the Appeals Chamber, first I would have had to have the

 8     document translated.  I could not have used it as a reference because I

 9     did not receive the Prosecution's motion.  It has not been translated to

10     this day.  I cannot write anything without a proper reference.  Thank

11     you.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, the Chamber would like to make the

14     situation very clear.  There is, I think, at least in the transcript, a

15     contradiction.  First you said you will respect the Appeals Chamber's

16     decision and will not challenge it; and then - and that is on page 9,

17     line 6 - you said that, I would appeal.  Could you tell, please, the OTP

18     and the Chamber what is your intention?  Will you in any way challenge

19     the decision of the Appeals Chamber or not?  This is the key question.

20     We need to know that.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I think

22     that I was quite clear.  In my first intervention, I said that I will

23     respect the decision of the Appeals Chamber and I do not intend to

24     challenge it.  And that's what I answered when you asked a follow-up

25     question when the session continued.  Now, I had indicated that I would

Page 3587

 1     appeal the decision before the Appeals Chamber rendered its decision, not

 2     that I would appeal.  That I would respond to the Prosecution motion.  So

 3     I did not say that I would appeal.  I said that I would respond to the

 4     Prosecution motion, but that was before the Appeals Chamber ruled.  Now

 5     that the decision is here, I don't intend to appeal or to challenge it,

 6     but I intend to exercise my right not to examine this witness in closed

 7     session because the procedure has been violated.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The debate shows that we are faced -- facing a

10     very difficult problem and therefore we have to continue to put some

11     questions.  Judge Nyambe has a question.

12             JUDGE NYAMBE:  I have a question for General Tolimir.  Would you

13     like to have an opportunity to be heard in the matter that was before the

14     Appeals Chamber in any way?

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

16             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] My apologies, I would like to ask the

17     Honourable Judge to repeat her question because it appears to have been

18     misinterpreted into the Serbian language.

19             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Okay.  You have indicated in your submissions that

20     you have some concerns with the fact that you were not allowed to express

21     your view on this very significant matter, which is correct.  Would you,

22     therefore, like to be given the opportunity to be heard and express your

23     views on this matter?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have expressed my

25     view orally here in the courtroom in my two interventions, and I do not

Page 3588

 1     intend to challenge the decision of the Appeals Chamber.  And I'm not

 2     happy that the Appeals Chamber ruled without first hearing the Defence on

 3     the issue of the procedure regarding this Prosecution motion, because we

 4     have indicated -- we had indicated to the Prosecution we would respond to

 5     this motion, but we had not been given an opportunity.  And we had not

 6     even received the motion, in fact.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Therefore, I understand from your response and

 8     really for the avoidance of doubt, that you have no intention to ask for

 9     review or appeal against the Appeals Chamber decision, but that merely

10     you are just protesting the way the decision was reached without hearing

11     you?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  I am a

13     Christian, and I accept any decision whether it's detrimental or not

14     detrimental to my case.  And I do not want to challenge any decision,

15     although I suffer the consequences of each and every one.  So please bear

16     that in mind when we talk about that.  I said that I would not challenge

17     the Appeals Chamber decision.  That's how they ruled.  I will just bear

18     the consequences.  And that's all.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE NYAMBE:  I think the Chamber would like to put it on record

20     that as proposed by the Prosecution that you do have the right to be

21     heard and in this case you could go to the Appeals Chamber to ask for

22     review or appeal against it.  And I take your answer to mean you are

23     waiving that right.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I did not say that I

25     waive my right.  I said that, as a Christian, I accept all decisions of

Page 3589

 1     the appropriate bodies of this Tribunal, including the Appeals Chamber.

 2     And if they do not respect my rights, I will bear the consequences of

 3     that fact.  And that's all I said.  Nothing more.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We see the situation the accused finds himself in

 6     after the decision of the Appeals Chamber.  This Chamber was not seised

 7     of that, has no stand in making this decision, and we don't comment the

 8     Appeals Chamber decision, so that there's no room for in the alternative

 9     way.  We would like to proceed and move into closed session now, and the

10     witness should be brought in.

11                           [Closed session]

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

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Page 3590











11 Pages 3590-3594 redacted. Closed session.















Page 3595

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11   (redacted)

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20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We are in open session again, and let's continue

23     with the next witness.  He should be brought in.

24                           [The witness entered court]

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning, sir.  Welcome to the Tribunal.

Page 3596

 1     Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the card which is shown to

 2     you now.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, thank you.  I

 4     solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and

 5     nothing but the truth.

 6                           WITNESS:  ZLATAN CELANOVIC

 7                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey has some questions for you, I

11     suppose.  Mr. McCloskey.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning,

13     Your Honours, and everyone.

14                           Examination by Mr. McCloskey:

15        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Celanovic.

16        A.   Good morning.

17        Q.   Could you state your full name for the record, please.

18        A.   Zlatan Celanovic.

19        Q.   And have you had a chance in the last day or so to review your

20     testimony from the Popovic trial that you did back in 2007?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And if you were asked those same questions again, would your

23     answers be the same?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And was the information you provided in that testimony true and

Page 3597

 1     correct to the best of your knowledge?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, at this time I would offer in what

 4     has been numbered P637, the transcript of that former testimony.  And if

 5     I could read the witness summary, and then I would offer in the other

 6     items with a brief explanation.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The transcript of the Popovic trial will be

 8     received.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

10        Q.   Now --

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please indicate the number?

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  637.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  P637.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please continue.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:

17        Q.   Now, Mr. Celanovic, as you know, there's a little summary I'll

18     read.  And I will try to get it right, as you recall it.  But if there's

19     any changes you would like to make, let us know.  But this is meant to be

20     a summary of your last testimony.  Okay?

21        A.   All right.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Zlatan Celanovic was born on 18 February 1955 in

23     Bratunac.  He is a lawyer by profession and practices law in Bratunac.

24     He served in the VRS Bratunac Brigade during the war in Bosnia.  In

25     July 1995, he was working in the moral, legal, and religious branch of

Page 3598

 1     the Bratunac Brigade.  His immediate superior was Major Ratko Jevtic,

 2     assistant commander for moral, legal, and religious affairs of the

 3     Bratunac Brigade.  His commander was Colonel Vidoje Blagojevic, commander

 4     of the Bratunac Brigade.  In July 1995, Celanovic was the

 5     Bratunac Brigade desk officer for this branch.

 6             At times, Mr. Celanovic worked with Captain Momir Nikolic, the

 7     Bratunac Brigade chief of security and intelligence.  Mr. Celanovic also

 8     worked with the military police and dealt with breaches of military

 9     discipline committed by soldiers.  His responsibility was to take

10     statements from persons brought to him by the military police and to

11     deliver those statements to the commander who would make a decision as to

12     whether charges would be brought.  He also had intelligence and

13     counter-intelligence responsibilities.

14             On the evening of 12 July or the morning of 13 July 1995 -

15     Mr. Celanovic could not be sure which time was correct - he met with

16     Ljubisa Beara in front of the military police building near the

17     Bratunac Brigade headquarters.  He knew Beara from previous visits Beara

18     had made to the brigade in 1993 and 1994 and testified that Beara was

19     either a colonel or a lieutenant-colonel, he wasn't sure.

20             At that time, Beara asked Celanovic if he had any information

21     about Muslims who had committed crimes against the Serbian people.

22     Mr. Celanovic responded that there was a book entitled "Chronicle of Our

23     Cemetery" that had the names of Muslims in it.  Beara asked him to

24     identify Muslims if in the course of the day they were brought to the MP

25     building, or otherwise taken into military police custody, and to check

Page 3599

 1     and determine if their names appeared in this book.  Beara told Celanovic

 2     that if he identified someone from the book, he was to inform the

 3     security organ so that action may be taken and the case forwarded to the

 4     competent military prosecutor.

 5             On the morning of 13 July, Momir Nikolic brought Muslim prisoner

 6     Resid Sinanovic, a Bosnian Muslim lawyer from the -- and the former chief

 7     of public security station or police station in Bratunac.  Nikolic

 8     brought him to the military police building and asked Mr. Celanovic to

 9     investigate allegations of war crimes committed by Sinanovic.

10             Soon after Sinanovic's arrival there, five or six other

11     Bosnian Muslim prisoners were delivered to the Bratunac Brigade

12     headquarters by soldiers that Mr. Celanovic described as

13     "Special Forces."  The names of the Bosnian Muslim men were Nazif Avdic,

14     Munib Dedic, Aziz Husic, Mujo Husic, and Hasib Ibisevic.  These five men

15     were taken first, and then one and a half hours later Sinanovic was taken

16     there, according to the witness who clarified that recently.

17             And these men are named in paragraphs 21.1 of the third amended

18     indictment, Your Honours.

19             Mr. Celanovic questioned all six Bosnian Muslim men and took

20     notes of the interrogation.  Mr. Celanovic identified his interview notes

21     in court proceedings during Popovic trial and affirmed that they reflect

22     the men he interviewed.

23             And, for the record, the exhibit numbers of his notes are P638

24     through 641.  And I'll mention them a bit later.

25             After the interrogations, Sinanovic and the other Muslim

Page 3600

 1     prisoners were taken to the Vuk Karadzic School in Bratunac, a short

 2     distance away.

 3             During the day on 13 July, Mr. Celanovic observed trucks and

 4     buses in Bratunac full of Muslim men who had been taken prisoner.  The

 5     evening of 13 July, Mr. Celanovic met Ljubisa Beara for the second time

 6     at the front of the military police building near the Bratunac Brigade

 7     command.  Mr. Celanovic testified -- excuse me, Mr. Celanovic reported to

 8     Beara that he had seen Muslims in buses and trucks in Bratunac that day.

 9     Then, at about dusk, Mr. Celanovic and Mr. Beara walked to the Bratunac

10     stadium and elementary school area where they observed trucks and buses

11     full of Muslim men.  Soldiers were securing these vehicles and the people

12     in them.

13             Mr. Celanovic asked Mr. Beara why these people were not being

14     transported immediately.  Beara responded that there were not enough

15     vehicles to transport them and that a re-organisation of the transport

16     was being carried out and that their women and children would go to

17     Kladanj the next morning.  Shortly thereafter, Mr. Celanovic and

18     Colonel Beara returned to the Bratunac Brigade headquarters.

19             And that is the end of my summary.

20             And, Mr. President, I would offer those notes of the interviews

21     of those Muslim men that were referred to in the testimony and as were

22     just referred to in the summary, and those would be number 638 for

23     Mr. Husic; 639 for Mr. Sinanovic; 640 for Abdic, Dedic, Husic, and a

24     person named Begzadic; 641, notes of Ibisevic; in addition, 642, which

25     was a letter which attached a medical record that is related to

Page 3601

 1     Mr. Sinanovic; and 643, which is an aerial image of Bratunac that was

 2     described and marked by the witness.

 3             Also, going to a different grouping of materials, I would offer

 4     P644, which -- only pages 4 and 5, because this was a large statement of

 5     facts from Momir Nikolic and pages 4 and 5 were read out to

 6     Mr. Nikolic [sic] in cross-examination by the Defence, and I'm not

 7     offering the entire statement but for 4 and 5 so you can see how that

 8     worked.  Sorry, they were read out to Mr. Celanovic during his cross, not

 9     to Mr. Nikolic.  And I've spoken with Mr. Gajic on that, and he agreed

10     that it was appropriate to have those two pages, as opposed to the entire

11     statement.

12             I would also offer P645 which was another document that was used

13     in cross by the Defence, but I think it makes more sense to have the

14     entire document for that.  Also, lastly, P646 which was a statement that

15     Mr. Celanovic gave to the Bratunac police in 2003, but I'm only offering

16     pages 3 and 4 because those were the parts that were shown to him by the

17     Defence during cross-examination.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  All these documents with the given P numbers will

19     be received.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.  And if we could put P643 up on the

21     e-court.  That is this aerial image.

22        Q.   And, Mr. Celanovic, I don't want to completely redo this.

23     There's a pretty clear record of this.  But do you recall what basically

24     were you -- when you were - and this image will come up on this, and

25     we'll explain it in a little more detail, but -- there it is.

Page 3602

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we could blow that up more, please.

 2        Q.   Mr. Celanovic --

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Your Honours, this has been marked before.

 4     It's very difficult to see.  So I think we need to blow it up a bit more.

 5     And it's that big building up in the left-hand corner.  If we could blow

 6     that up, you'll -- you'll -- one more time, I think.  You'll be able to

 7     see some of these markings a bit better.  That's good.  If we could

 8     centre that.

 9        Q.   Now, first of all, Mr. Celanovic, what was -- what is this aerial

10     image of?  What town are we looking at here?

11        A.   Bratunac.

12        Q.   And is -- do you recognise these green marks as markings that you

13     made in the last trial?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Okay.  So let's explain these briefly for this Trial Chamber.

16     First of all, we see this very large rectangular angular thing that has a

17     little green rectangle at the end of it.  Can you tell us what this big

18     building is, this big rectangular white building that has the green

19     markings on one end?

20        A.   That is the building in which the headquarters of the

21     Bratunac Brigade was accommodated.

22        Q.   And what was it before the war, that huge building?

23        A.   Before the war, it was an administrative buildings.  There were

24     offices there, and these were the offices of the Kaolin factory.  They

25     had their business premises there.  The management and the administrative

Page 3603

 1     staff were accommodated there on the top floor.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Could you -- and I think we should mark this one.  Could

 3     you put a 1 by the rectangle that indicates where the offices were.  I

 4     think, if you remember how to do that, I think it's basically the same as

 5     it was when you testified, but he'll help you.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Court Officer will assist you.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here it is, number 1.  The right

 8     side of the building -- I mean the floor.  And also the ground floor in

 9     the right half of the building was the office of the brigade commander.

10     At the ground floor was the duty officer's room, and on the right-hand

11     side on the ground floor was the mess for the members of the

12     Bratunac Brigade.  Whereas on the left side, on the floor - let me mark

13     it this way - were the officers' rooms for the personnel department as

14     well as the logistics officers' rooms.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:

16        Q.   That little notch you made for the logistics officers' rooms, can

17     just put a 2 by that so that anyone looking at the record will see what

18     that is.

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   Okay.  And --

21        A.   Is it visible?

22        Q.   I think so, yes.  So to be clear, what we are looking at within

23     that rectangle is a two-story building attached to the Kaolin factory

24     that is -- was for administrative offices.  And now, during the war, it

25     was military offices; correct?

Page 3604

 1        A.   Correct.

 2        Q.   Now, this other huge building that it's attached to, that --

 3     you've described that as the Kaolin factory.  What did they make there,

 4     before the war?

 5        A.   Ceramic tiles were being produced there before the war in the big

 6     facility or should I say a series of facilities behind.  Should I mark

 7     that?

 8        Q.   No, that's okay.  I just wanted -- wanted us to know, get a feel

 9     for what that huge building was about.

10             More importantly, we see, going back to where the brigade offices

11     were, that you have marked it's almost a square in front.  Can you put a

12     3 by that square and tell us what that -- what building or what you were

13     noting in that area?

14        A.   That was the reception desk room.  That was where the person who

15     was working at the gate was located.  And that was, at the same time, the

16     gate to the yard.

17        Q.   And where is the military police building that you talk about in

18     your testimony?

19        A.   In the building marked with number 2.  It is this one.

20        Q.   Well, you've marked number 2 as where the logistics officers

21     were, so let's mark the number 4, the one that you just marked, which you

22     have now said was the military police building.

23        A.   [Marks]

24        Q.   Now, we can also see from this diagram that the green line goes

25     from the area of the front of the gate, follows the road for a while.

Page 3605

 1     Can you briefly tell us what that was supposed to depict, that green line

 2     and -- as it disappears off our page, and we'll get into that in a little

 3     more detail.

 4        A.   That is the access road leading to the Kaolin factory.  Or, in

 5     this case, the headquarters of the brigade and also the military police

 6     leading from Gavrila Principa Street all the way to the entrance gate,

 7     that is, the gate to the factory or the gate leading to the headquarters

 8     of the brigade.

 9        Q.   And do you remember being asked to draw the route that you and

10     Colonel Beara took when you left that evening on the 13th and walked into

11     the centre of town?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And is that depicted by the green line as it's going along the

14     streets?

15        A.   Yes.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could we put this blow-up into evidence,

17     Mr. President.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received with markings of the witness.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P652.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And if we could pan out with the original shot so

22     we can get an idea of where they walked to.  Hoping not to lose these

23     markings, of course.  Okay.  We can see the Kaolin factory, but we need

24     to blow it up a bit more if we're going to get an idea of his former

25     green line and the route they took.  All right.  Yeah, if you can move it

Page 3606

 1     up a little more because we can ... just a little bit more, please.  One

 2     more smidge.  Just a couple more centimetres.  Okay.

 3        Q.   All right.  So I think everyone can see that -- that green line.

 4     And as you walk out from the gate, you took a right on that main street.

 5     What was the main street that you took a right on that we can see the

 6     green line going down?

 7        A.   That is Gavrila Principa Street.

 8        Q.   All right.  And I don't want to go through your testimony; I

 9     think it's clear.  But can you point out to the Court, just put a big F

10     where the football stadium is.

11        A.   I apologise.  As I'm left-handed, I have to try to do it with my

12     right hand because it's not really visible.

13        Q.   Okay.  I think we can see that big field where you've put that F.

14     And, now, can you put a big X by the Vuk Kar -- what was known then, as

15     you've testified, as the Vuk Karadzic School and surrounding buildings.

16     Just put a big X on the top of the Vuk Karadzic School, if you can spot

17     it.

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   Thank you.  And one more location that the Trial Chamber's heard

20     a lot about, can you put a big circle around the Hotel Fontana?

21        A.   Yes.  Just a second so I can find my bearings.

22        Q.   All right.  Thank you.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I would offer this photo into evidence.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, we're not --

Page 3607

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P644 [sic].

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  We're not precisely sure of the date of this

 3     aerial photo, but it is sometime in 1995.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think the number has to be corrected.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  I apologise, Your Honour.  The correct number is

 6     P653.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I have no further questions, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 9             Mr. Tolimir, do you have cross-examination for the witness?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I do

11     have questions.  I wish to greet the witness.  I hope that the witness

12     would feel pleasant here, God bless you, and I hope that the proceedings

13     would finish in accordance with God's will and not in accordance with my

14     own will.  So please tell us the truth, because you are a lawyer by

15     profession.  Thank you.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

18        Q.   [Interpretation] As we both speak the same language, please pause

19     a little while, once I finish my question and say thank you, until you

20     can see that the transcript in English has finished with my last words.

21     I will also try to wait for your answers.  Thank you.

22        A.   Thank you.

23        Q.   First of all, let us explore this.  I have, in front of me, a

24     statement, 1D1 -- 212.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And I would like to see it on the

Page 3608

 1     screen.  1D564, in fact.  I would like to -- P646.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is 1D00219.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Well, we can see the statement here.  Is this the

 6     statement that you gave, record, is this your signature on the front

 7     page?  Thank you.

 8        A.   Well, based on the signature, I would say that it is, but it's a

 9     little bit illegible, so if you could maybe zoom in a little bit.  Now

10     it's fine.  Yes.

11        Q.   [No interpretation]

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please repeat your question, it was not --

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Well, yes, I apologise.

15     I failed to switch on the microphone.

16             Let us look at page 2 so that the witness can confirm whether

17     this is indeed his signature.  Thank you.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Yes, I asked you whether this was your signature.

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             Now I would like us to look at page 3 of this statement of yours.

23     Thank you.

24             Well, we can see the first paragraph on page 3.  I will recount

25     what you say here.  You say in line 3 that you were the desk officer for

Page 3609

 1     moral, religious, and legal affairs - that's at page 2 in the English

 2     version - and that you were in charge of administrative duties, and that

 3     you were on stand-by for those administrative tasks; is that so?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Now, can you tell us for the record whether you took

 6     part in combat at all, or, rather, whether you only performed those

 7     administrative tasks that you told us about?  Thank you.

 8        A.   Well, I did take part in the fighting when there were attacks on

 9     the Serb villages.

10        Q.   Thank you for your answer.  I wanted to ask you if you took part

11     in the fighting in July 1995; that's the time-period that your statement

12     refers to.  Thank you.

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I would like you to look at paragraph 6 of your

15     statement in the Serbian language.  Or, rather, page 4, I'm sorry.  So

16     that would be page 4 of your statement.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which paragraph on page 4?  Is it paragraph 6?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's correct, yes, paragraph 6.

19     Line 6 in the English version, that's page 3, the last, sixth, line at

20     the very end of the page.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   You say that it was your assessment that the town was not secure

23     since all the troops were out on the ground, and you say this was a

24     realistic fact and knowing that the security officer, that was Colonel

25     Beara, presented his views, but Colonel Beara, however, said, It's all

Page 3610

 1     right, both we and they will make it through the night, and tomorrow they

 2     are going to Kladanj for sure.

 3             Thank you.  Did I quote you correctly?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Yes.  Now, it's been scrolled down so now you can read it, but

 6     you've already answered my question.

 7             Now I have another question, a follow-up question:  Why did you

 8     think that Sarajevo was not safe at the time?

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Bratunac was not

10     safe at the time.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   What was the threat, in your view?

13        A.   Well, based on my personal observations as I passed through the

14     town, I realised that there were very few Serb troops there.  And my

15     second observation was that there was a huge number of people there,

16     captives, prisoners, who were all gathered in one place and that as for

17     the Serbs, there were mostly unarmed civilians there, not troops.  And my

18     layman's assessment was that it could happen, given the circumstances,

19     that the prisoners could take the town.  And that's why I said so to

20     Mr. Beara.  I thought that he would be able to give a better assessment.

21        Q.   Can you just tell us whether you made this conclusion or this

22     assessment on the basis of the fact that there was a huge number of

23     captured soldiers, enemies of the Serbian army, and that there was a very

24     few -- that there were very few soldiers from your brigade?

25        A.   Yes, precisely.

Page 3611

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I would like you to look at line 13.  I will

 2     read it out.

 3             "After we returned to the gates of the command building, he asked

 4     me whether I had a list of Muslims suspected of war crimes against Serbs.

 5     I said that I had only a book entitled the "Chronicles of Our Cemeteries"

 6     by Miroslav [as interpreted] Ivanisevic which has a list of all those

 7     people and witness statements and that I myself took part in gathering

 8     materials for this book, gathering witness statements from Serbs after

 9     Serb villages were burnt down."

10             Thank you.  Did I quote you correctly, and is this something that

11     you said?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Based on what he told you and since you said that you

14     wrote this book and -- or, rather, that you took part in gathering

15     materials, that there were people there that were identified as war

16     criminals; yes or no?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   You can tell us as a lawyer whether, as an administrative worker

19     in your brigade, whether this was in fact the right job for you, whether

20     your abilities were utilized to the maximum in that post?

21        A.   Well, it's a difficult question.  Could you please be more

22     specific?

23        Q.   I'm asking you whether it was logical for you to be given this

24     task, or instructions, as a lawyer since as a lawyer you were in fact

25     misplaced to make this assessment in line with the request made by

Page 3612

 1     Colonel Beara?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Now we are looking at paragraph 2.  It begins with

 4     the word "The next day ..." or "Around noon the following day ..."  Let

 5     us look at line 10 where you say:

 6             "When persons were identified, I asked them where they were from,

 7     their direction of movement, and whether they knew where Naser's

 8     commanders have gone."

 9             My question is this:  Why did you ask them where Naser's

10     commanders had gone?  Thank you.

11        A.   Because it would make it possible to identify the location of

12     their movement and facilitate their arrest in that manner.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Does it mean that those commanders had not

14     surrendered and had left the territory where all the others that you took

15     statements from were still there, or remained?

16        A.   At that time, I did not know their whereabouts.

17        Q.   Thank you.  In line 12, you say that as you questioned those

18     people you learned that they had not been -- they weren't compromised in

19     any way, they were not responsible of anything?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Does that mean that none of them were handed over to anyone for

22     further processing or prosecution by judicial organs because there was no

23     need following this identification that you carried out on the basis of

24     the book and the witness statements that were gathered in the book?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 3613

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now look at paragraph 3.  This is the

 2     paragraph where -- which talks about how Rasid -- Resid Sinanovic was

 3     brought to your office.  And your description how you spoke to

 4     Rasid [as interpreted], you and your colleagues - well, I don't want to

 5     quote.  My question is whether you and the other brigade personnel and

 6     your colleagues in the brigade and in the town who spoke to Resid,

 7     whether any of you did anything to Resid that was not in accordance with

 8     the law?

 9        A.   Before I give you an answer, I have to correct you.  It's not

10     "Rasid," it's "Resid."  Nobody harmed Resid in any way.  He was not

11     mistreated in any way while he was in my office on that day.  I didn't do

12     anything to him, and I can give you just one other name.  We didn't do

13     anything to him.

14        Q.   Thank you.  There's no need to list any names, but I just asked

15     you whether you knew of any threats or any harm to his person or to his

16     safety while he was under your control in the office, because it says

17     here, I found Resid in the office.

18             And thank you very much for correcting me that his name is Resid

19     and not Rasid.  Thank you.

20             Could you please state for the record once again whether he was

21     treated in any way that would not be in line with the standards for the

22     treatment of a person who is questioned about war crimes in Srebrenica

23     while he was under your control in the office and in the contact with

24     other people who came into your office?

25        A.   Absolutely not.  Quite the contrary.  He was offered coffee, he

Page 3614

 1     was given lunch, he was given anything that he might require, such as

 2     cigarettes and so on.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, can we please look at page 5,

 5     paragraph 1 of the witness statement in the Serbian language.  Thank you.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Here you say - I will just read line 4:

 8             "I would like to note that there was -- there were no reliable

 9     documents showing that Resid was in any way involved in the massacre, and

10     I myself was certain of that because I had worked with Resid before the

11     war and we were on good terms and I knew that he was a mild and honest

12     man."

13             My question to you is:  Given this knowledge that you had about

14     Resid, did anyone insult Resid in your presence?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Now, in this line of this paragraph, we are reading line 15,

17     where you say:

18             "Since the above-mentioned officers claimed that they were

19     Specials, there could be no arguing with them because they were arrogant

20     fellows, Specials, and it was better not to get on their wrong side.  We

21     accepted that fact, said good-bye to Resid, and gave him a pack of

22     Morava cigarettes to take with him because we had nothing else to give

23     him except bread and a bottle of water."

24             Now, my question is whether you as a lawyer consider that he was

25     treated in line with all the required procedures based on the documents

Page 3615

 1     that you had in the brigade and in the book that you spoke about?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Now, let us look at paragraph 3 on this page, page 5,

 4     where you say, in line 1:

 5             "I no longer followed Colonel Beara's orders because no one was

 6     brought in that day or later, and it was absurd for me to check the

 7     identity papers of people that they accidently brought in.  While in the

 8     school, that is, the reception centre, there were several hundred people

 9     whose identity papers no one checked."

10             Thank you.  Now, my question is whether you did not want to obey

11     Beara's instructions, or is it that there was no need to do that, to

12     continue doing what you had been doing in your office?

13        A.   Well, I followed Beara's instructions after Resid and five or six

14     other people.  Nobody else was brought in, so I didn't have anyone to

15     work with.  And it was rather absurd for me to wait for those two or

16     three people to be brought in.  And in the school I could have been given

17     a security detail and then ordered to go there, to the reception centre,

18     because there were many people there to check whether there were any

19     responsible for anything.  So it was really absurd for me to go on

20     waiting there, given the heat.

21        Q.   Now, were you the only lawyer in your brigade who dealt with

22     moral, religious, and legal issues, as you stated in the first paragraph

23     of your statement?

24        A.   Well, I was not the only one.  There was also Major Ratko Jevtic,

25     but he was unexperienced because he was a recent graduate, he did not

Page 3616

 1     really have any practical experience, so that's why I did most of the

 2     work as the desk officer.  And he was the assistant commander for the

 3     same sphere.

 4        Q.   So, on the whole, in your brigade, did you do most of the work

 5     identifying possible war crimes suspects among the captives, or was there

 6     any other lawyer involved in that?

 7        A.   Well, there were no other lawyers, but there was Momir Nikolic,

 8     the security officer.  He did the same job, but as a security officer.

 9     But he is not a lawyer.

10        Q.   You mentioned Momir Nikolic.  And in paragraph 3, line 5 of your

11     statement, that's at page 5, you say:

12             Since after Momir Nikolic's incomplete statement in The Hague, a

13     great material and moral damage was inflicted on me as a respectable and

14     honest man by the Yellow Press such as "Dnevni Avaz."  And this is the

15     first opportunity I have to tell the truth before a competent organ.

16             Did I quote you correctly?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   My next question is this:  Based on what I've just read, it's not

19     quite clear whether harm was caused to you after the statement was given

20     and withdrawn or when.  Perhaps you want to comment on it.  Perhaps we

21     should give you an opportunity.

22        A.   Well, I don't know when Nikolic withdrew his statement, but

23     immediately after he gave the statement - and it's just one sentence that

24     he handed Resid Sinanovic to me as a lawyer, and his statement ended with

25     that.  From the context of his statement, the tabloids drew this

Page 3617

 1     erroneous conclusion that Resid Sinanovic, after he was handed over to

 2     me, disappeared and that I was to blame.  I don't know what happened to

 3     him.  Now I no longer am concerned about that to such an extent after all

 4     these trials, the Blagojevic and Beara cases.  It is quite clear that

 5     this fact was taken out of the context of Momir Nikolic's statement.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7        A.   Thank you.

 8        Q.   I think that it is now clear to all of us what your treatment of

 9     this gentleman, Resid Sinanovic, was.

10             Now, let us move on to paragraph 4 of this statement of yours at

11     page 5, which speaks about the UNPROFOR soldiers surrendering to the

12     troops of your brigade.  I'm reading first and the second lines:

13             "On the same day, the 13th of July, 1995, in afternoon, I noticed

14     several UNPROFOR members outside the military police building and I

15     learned that they had surrendered.  With them were four or five military

16     policemen who were providing security for them.  I learned from the

17     military policemen that they were supposed to be put in the Vuk Karadzic

18     elementary school.  And I advised the military police to engage

19     themselves as much as they could in ensuring the security of the members

20     of the Dutch Battalion and to give them their full attention and

21     assistance, especially if any of them needed medical help.  And that

22     there should be no mistakes there.  The policemen took my advice and said

23     that Captain Momir Nikolic had given them the same orders and that

24     everything would be all right."

25             Thank you.  End of quote.

Page 3618

 1             Now, my question is this:  Can you just briefly tell us if there

 2     were any problems with these members of UNPROFOR who had surrendered

 3     themselves to the brigade HQ and who were with you on the 13th, and

 4     whether you and the policemen and Nikolic treated them as you stated

 5     here?  Thank you.

 6        A.   I'm still not sure whether they surrendered or just crossed over

 7     to our side, because they had weapons, they had rifles.  And I would know

 8     if any of them had been mistreated.  So after they were accommodated for

 9     a day or two, they were allowed to leave and depart for Holland.  I know

10     that they were escorted and that they were supposed to have a flight from

11     Zagreb.  As for their security or anything else, there were no incidents

12     at all that would indicate anything like this.  They were taken care of

13     and provided with everything possible.  They had good accommodation in

14     the other school that was next to the health centre.  It was called

15     Vuk Karadzic, as there were some problems with the name earlier.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17        A.   You're welcome.

18        Q.   As you said in your previous answer that they had weapons with

19     themselves, does that mean that weapons were not taken away from them at

20     the moment when you saw them?  Did you see them carry the weapons, or did

21     you see the weapons separately from them?

22        A.   I could see that they had weapons, they had helmets, they had

23     transport bags, equipment; they had everything on themselves.

24        Q.   Thank you.  As you said that you are still unsure whether they

25     had surrendered or were taken prisoners, as usually weapons are seised

Page 3619

 1     from prisoners, I'm asking you now, Who did you learn from that they had

 2     surrendered themselves?  Thank you.

 3        A.   Once again, it is difficult to answer.  I did not learn that they

 4     had surrendered themselves.  But from the membership commander, I heard

 5     that the interpreter told him, as both of us did not speak English, told

 6     him that they had crossed over to our side because of an incident in the

 7     villages around Srebrenica and that they had not surrendered themselves.

 8     It is logical that if they had the weapons with themselves, that they had

 9     not surrendered themselves but had crossed over to our side.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us if you know or if you knew back then

11     that there were members who fired on the 9th and the 10th and the 13th on

12     the members of the VRS in the protected zone of Srebrenica?  Thank you.

13        A.   Can you please repeat the question?

14        Q.   At the time when you saw them, did you personally know that the

15     members of UNPROFOR in Srebrenica were requested to attack members of the

16     VRS, and was that the reason for them to surrender themselves, because

17     they did not want to attack?

18        A.   I was not present in a situation where they would be requested

19     either to attack or not to attack.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Can you just briefly tell us, for the record, and so

21     that we can finish this subject, whether, according to your knowledge

22     then and now, the VRS treated these members of UNPROFOR who were taken

23     prisoners or who had crossed over or who surrendered themselves, as we

24     don't know?

25        A.   Yes, I'm completely certain that they were treated properly.

Page 3620

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please look at page 4,

 3     line 4.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Which discusses how Beara told you that, as you had the book the

 6     "Chronicle of our Cemeteries" in which it contained the list of persons

 7     that committed crimes, that you should find out whether there were any

 8     such persons among the prisoners.  If it is necessary, you can read it.

 9     And please tell us something more about this book, a "Chronicle of our

10     Cemeteries" which you used in accordance with instructions provided by

11     Beara.  Thank you.

12        A.   The "Chronicle of our Cemeteries," the author of which is

13     Milovoje Ivanisevic from Belgrade, is a result of statements which were

14     taken from villagers of Serb populated villagers that were attacked with

15     all the consequences that followed.  That means many soldiers and

16     civilians killed, plundered, and torched villages, and such statements

17     were given to a commission which investigated war crimes.  That was a

18     commission of Republika Srpska and also there was one in Yugoslavia.  I

19     don't know the exact title, but it was the commission that was set up by

20     legitimate state organs.

21             As for Milivoj Ivanisevic, I remember well that he was authorised

22     by Ms. Biljana Plavsic, who was then the president, he had a permission

23     that was stamped and signed that he would have access to documents and as

24     an authorised person, he would visit and say what he was interested in.

25     So that, as I know much about this work taking statements and assessing

Page 3621

 1     the validity and quality of statements, because I had a lot of experience

 2     with that due to my profession, at the request of both Milivoj Ivanisevic

 3     and the representative of the commission of Republika Srpska, I took

 4     statements from civilians and soldiers after attacks had been mounted

 5     against Serb populated villages.

 6             There was also a form that would be filled out with information

 7     about the place that had been attacked and the casualties, and that would

 8     be enclosed.  They were provided with this, and so Milivoj Ivanisevic

 9     compiled this book, the "Chronicle of our Cemeteries," in which he laid

10     out the chronology of attacks and casualties and historical reasons for

11     all these incidents.  I have read that book.  I have that book.  I had it

12     on that day.  But, like with any other book, the author exhausted

13     everything that was possible.  He included all the statements.  And there

14     were several statements that mentioned by Resid Sinanovic, but I believe

15     them not to be valid at all.  I can explain that if you'd like me.  But

16     that was not your question, so it is up to you to decide.

17        Q.   Thank you.  As you and I know with we were talking about ...

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please show 1D223 in

19     e-court.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before we do that, Mr. Tolimir, you used the

21     pages 1, 2, and 5 of the previous document which were not admitted into

22     evidence yet because we only admitted pages 3 and 4.  Are you tendering

23     the pages 1, 2, and 5?

24                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  At the moment, we are not sure if the whole

Page 3622

 1     document was admitted during examination-in-chief or only pages 3 and 4.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  As this was a witness

 3     statement, I just -- and it was only used in part by the Defence, I only

 4     offered those short parts, having Rule 92 bis and other rules in mind.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You tendered only the pages 3 and 4?

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  So far I

 9     have been speaking about the statement of this witness, and I would

10     tender it in its entirety.  But I wanted you to have a look, together

11     with the witness, at the book in the compilation of which he

12     participated.  Thank you.  I would tender the entirety of this statement

13     into evidence, and then later on we will talk about specific pages of the

14     book.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, could he state the grounds for which he is

17     offering it, because if we are offering all the statements or many of the

18     statements of all the witnesses that are coming here, that really

19     undercuts the whole adversarial and civil law system that we are working

20     under.  If there's a particular reason that it may assist the Court,

21     absolutely.  But just -- it seems like they're just coming in for the

22     sake of coming in.  And you're going to be buried with this material if

23     that continues.

24             In addition, just reading material back to the witness and having

25     him repeat it really doesn't get us anywhere.  And it's actually not even

Page 3623

 1     evidence for your consideration.  It just comes in that he said something

 2     to a police officer.  It would be much shorter and simpler if he would

 3     just ask the witness the question that's in the report.  He will get the

 4     answer and he will get it under oath to the Chamber, which is a more

 5     direct way than getting it through the police report.  Police reports

 6     could be useful for him, and there are a number of ways that it could be,

 7     but the way he's doing it is not helpful for himself, the way he is doing

 8     it, because it's really not even evidence.  It's just evidence that he

 9     said something to a police officer.  And I'm sorry to take the Court's

10     time on that, but it's going to be a long trial, and I just wanted the

11     General to understand that.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, on several occasions, I told you as

13     well, it's not the best way just to read documents into the record which

14     we have received already.

15             But I would like to ask the Registrar if we have the whole

16     document admitted or only pages 3 and 4 yet?

17                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, up to now, as on the request of the

19     Prosecution, we have pages 3 and 4.  You used, in addition, pages 1, 2,

20     and 5.  Is it not the best way to receive these three additional pages so

21     that we have an entire impression of that, and not the whole document.  I

22     have no idea how many pages there are in the whole document, but I think

23     you should decide that.

24                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There are only six pages in total, I'm told, and,

Page 3624

 1     therefore, the whole document will be received with the number already

 2     given, P646.

 3             Please carry on, Mr. Tolimir.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 5             Can we now please look at 1D223 in e-court.  Thank you.

 6             [No interpretation]

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D223 is a book, the "Chronicle of

 9     Our Cemeteries," which was published in Bratunac in 1994.  The author is

10     Mr. Ivanisevic, and the publisher is the commission for collecting

11     evidence against -- evidence of violations against humanitarian law.

12             The witness collected some of the information for this book as he

13     testified during cross-examination.  Thank you.  The text of this book is

14     in e-court, and it can be reached via the website,

15     which means

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is there a translation of a part of that?

17             Mr. Gajic.

18             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we currently do not

19     have a translation of this document, but we have tried to learn if any

20     sections of the book have been translated so that I hope we will inform

21     the Trial Chamber about this as soon as possible.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Perhaps you could deal with this problem as

23     follows:  You just put questions to the authenticity of this book.  And

24     without using a part of the book, try to get what you want from this

25     witness about the content.  Carry on, please.

Page 3625

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   I would ask the witness to tell us whether he collected any

 4     information for this book and whether he is mentioned in the book as a

 5     witness who participated in this?  Thank you.

 6        A.   I did collect a part of the materials for this book.  I think

 7     that on one of the initial pages Mr. Milivoj Ivanisevic listed me as one

 8     of the associates who took part in collecting the materials for this

 9     book.  It was not just me; he had a number of associates.

10        Q.   Can you please have a look at page 7 to confirm the authenticity

11     of the participation of this witness in collecting the materials for this

12     book?  Thank you.

13        A.   Yes.  That is one of the pages of the book.

14        Q.   Thank you.  You can see in line 2 of the first page where it

15     says, in the penultimate words:

16             "Zlatan Celanovic, we wish to thank these persons for their

17     personal engagement, among many other witnesses from the Bratunac

18     municipality."

19             Is it correct that all these people took part in collecting

20     materials for this book?

21        A.   Please let me just have a look first.

22             Yes, I know them all.  And I know that they were engaged in

23     collecting the materials.

24        Q.   All right.  Can you please tell the Trial Chamber in what way

25     were you engaged when you collected materials for this book?  Thank you.

Page 3626

 1        A.   By taking statements from witnesses who witnessed crimes

 2     committed against the Serbian people, civilians, and soldiers who were

 3     massacred or killed while defending their villages from witnesses who had

 4     survived and who were from the Serbian villages.

 5        Q.   Could you please tell the Trial Chamber whether at pages 124 to

 6     128 of this book there are names -- or, rather, statements of victims.

 7     Could you please look at page 124-168, thank you.

 8        A.   I didn't understand your question.  What am I supposed to answer

 9     regarding this page of the book?

10        Q.   Well, if the pages that I just quoted to you, 124 through 168,

11     whether they contained the witness statements?

12        A.   Well, I can just see a part of a statement by

13     Marko Slijvcevic [phoen], and I can't see anything else.  Could we please

14     just scroll down a little bit.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please move to the next page

16     of this book in e-court.  Thank you.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [No Interpretation]

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [No Interpretation]

20        Q.   This was page 124, which contained the first name that you read,

21     and then there's 125, 126, and -- through to 168.  Is that correct?

22        A.   Well, I can see that these are texts that are termed as

23     statements, but I do not have any authentic statements that would be

24     signed.  But this is how it's done in a book, how it's published.

25        Q.   Well, is it up to the author how to present it, how to present

Page 3627

 1     what you collected?

 2        A.   Well, probably, yes.  It's enough for him to state the author of

 3     the statement and the original of the statement that was signed, he

 4     probably had in his files.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us, based on what you know, what was the

 6     nature of the crimes against Serbs in the events described in this book

 7     in the area of Srebrenica, Bratunac, and Milici; and what kinds of scenes

 8     were described by various witness, in particular witnesses that you

 9     yourself interviewed?  If you could give us a striking example, perhaps.

10        A.   Well, perhaps I should start with the saddest example that will

11     show us what kind of crimes were committed.  A crime is a crime

12     regardless of who the victim is.  If somebody suffers in a conflict under

13     the conventions under humanitarian law, those people should not suffer.

14     And that goes primarily to women and children, even soldiers, if they

15     surrendered.

16             I remember a statement made by a woman from a village in the

17     Srebrenica area; I can't recall the exact name of the village.  One of

18     the first victims was in fact her son; maybe it was the hamlet of

19     Gnjilane in Srebrenica.  He was first captured and then he was tortured.

20     He was burnt with gas torches and he was then handed over to the

21     demarcation line.  He was brought there in a cart, in a wheelbarrow, in

22     fact, in pieces.  If they wanted to kill him, they could have just killed

23     him.  They didn't have to dismember him.  Well, I don't know who actually

24     did it.  There was a war going on.  But there were so many statements of

25     that nature.  For instance, the survivors from the Bjelovac village, from

Page 3628

 1     Zagone [phoen], from Kravica, from various villages in the Srebrenica

 2     area, many civilians, women, children, were killed, houses were burned

 3     down, looted.  It was just a terrible, terrible image of war.  That's it.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, I would like us to move to

 6     page 56 in e-court.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   I will quote just a part of it because I don't want to ask you in

 9     too great a detail.  But let me just read a passage, six lines in total.

10     It's paragraph 2, where it says:

11             "Many of the persons who had been killed and who were exchanged

12     or were in other ways recovered from the place where they were killed

13     showed evidence of burns, charred body parts, their throats had been

14     slit, their skulls had been shattered, their arms and legs had been

15     fractured, their heads had been -- they had been decapitated.  Often,

16     victims were massacred, mutilated after they were already dead.  Men were

17     circumsised and castrated and women were raped before they were killed.

18     Their butchered and burned bodies are testimony to ..." and so on.

19             Now, my question based on what I just read to you is the

20     following:  Could you please tell the Trial Chamber whether those

21     descriptions and conclusions are accurate and what they were based on in

22     this book, whether there is any evidence to support those claims?  Thank

23     you.

24        A.   Well, some conclusions are accurate because I myself know that

25     those things happened, but I cannot really state that all the conclusions

Page 3629

 1     here are correct, because they were based on the statements made by

 2     people who were interviewed by other people, not by me.  But, in fact,

 3     Dr. Veljko Macisic [phoen] could confirm or deny the accuracy of those

 4     statements because he worked in the healthcare centre and examined and

 5     did postmortems of the victims in some cases, and he was able to

 6     determine the kind of injuries and how they were inflicted and when.  So

 7     I wouldn't really like to give you a blanket confirmation here.  But I do

 8     know that there were some cases of that nature, where bodies were

 9     mutilated.  I myself saw some of those cases in the healthcare centre.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, can we please look at page 67

12     in e-court.  It's the part of the book entitled "The Ideological Leaders,

13     Officials, Commanders, and Direct Perpetrators of the Crimes."  Thank

14     you.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Well, we can see it here on the screen.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please look at page 66 to

18     narrow this down.  I don't want us to get too broad a scope.  Just one

19     passage.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, if I could ask the General under what

22     purpose this material is being offered?  What is his legal theory as to

23     the relevance of this?  Because there are certain prohibitions under

24     certain kinds of relevance and others are not.  So I think he should --

25     it's incumbent upon him to state his grounds.

Page 3630

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, the Chamber would like to know, as

 2     well, what's the purpose of this book, this document in B/C/S, shown to

 3     the witness and the questions you have put to him?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We have dealt with this

 5     in our pre-trial brief, noting that the Defence and the Prosecution are

 6     at odds when it comes to some adjudicated facts that were put forward by

 7     the Prosecution and facts as they existed on the ground pertaining to the

 8     crimes committed by both sides.

 9             This is a book that the witness worked on, and he speaks about

10     this in his statement.  He identified people, he checked people, the

11     prisoners, to check whether there were any identified perpetrators among

12     them.  And this is the only witness who can reliably tell us what he used

13     as a basis for that.  And he said that he didn't identify anyone.  But

14     this is all by way of proof that this was a professional doing a

15     professional job, as a lawyer, of actually identifying those who

16     committed crimes among those who took part in the fighting.  And this is

17     why we are trying to use this book through this witness who took part in

18     gathering material for it to show that.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That provided no answer to the question.  Clearly

21     this witness used this book, and information has been gathered in the

22     book.  My question was more related to the use of the horror and the gore

23     and the individual crimes that he keeps mentioning which, of course, the

24     Prosecution has never contested.  Naser Oric was on trial here, that some

25     terrible things were done by the Muslims.  But why is he going over and

Page 3631

 1     over and over this gore?  Is it a tu quoque situation?  Is it the Muslims

 2     deserve to be butchered because they were so horrible?  It is to prove

 3     that this was a revenge crime, not a genocide crime?  I mean, why is --

 4     what is his legal relevance for this material?

 5             We understand that the book was used by this person, that it's

 6     come in that way; that's no problem.  But this repeated use of taking us

 7     through this horror, is my -- is why -- what is the relevance of that?

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  What the

10     Prosecutor has just told us and what he's asked, what was it all about?

11     The Defence never used the tu quoque, eye-for-an-eye argument and never

12     put -- pitted those crimes against the crimes of the other side.  It's

13     just trying to portray equitably everything that happened in around the

14     Srebrenica zone and is using this witness, since according to his own

15     statement he was involved as a lawyer on gathering information from

16     direct participants of the events from witnesses.  And he testified to

17     that effect here.  And we never said that we were trying to present an

18     eye-for-an-eye or tu quoque arguments here.  And this is what

19     Mr. McCloskey is trying to put to us.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's helpful in the degree now we know some

22     reasons why he is not putting it forward.  And that's, of course,

23     appreciated.  And we understand that it's important to get a feel for the

24     area and what the sides are doing to each other.  We are not -- we don't

25     disagree; and, of course, we do agree.  We helped prosecute Naser Oric.

Page 3632

 1     But I think we're at the point where enough is enough with this, unless

 2     he can show some particular relevance to it, especially since it's not a

 3     matter that's major contested.  But he still hasn't given us a reason.

 4     Unless that's it, just to show the environment, which I understand, and

 5     is why I haven't objected until this point.  Because I agree that he has

 6     every right to do that.  But I think that the environment has been

 7     created fully and that any more getting into the -- it just becomes pure

 8     vilification of one side versus the other.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, we are now at a time when the next

10     break is -- has to be taken.  I think you should think about the concerns

11     of the Prosecution during the break.  And taking into account the time

12     you have used already for cross-examination, you indicated up to two

13     hours, you should think about that, the best use of the time you have for

14     cross-examination.

15             We adjourn and resume at 1.00.

16                           --- Recess taken at 12.28 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I'm sure you have used the time to

19     consult your legal advisor.  Please carry on with your cross-examination.

20             And I see on the transcript we didn't resume at 2.00, but 1 and

21     two minutes.

22             Mr. Tolimir.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  A little

24     while ago, the Prosecutor asked the Defence why this was relevant.  If we

25     need to say why it is, let me state it now.  If it is not necessary, then

Page 3633

 1     I will continue with my cross-examination.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It would be helpful if you could give certain

 3     reasoning.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  There

 5     are many reasons why what we are discussing with this witness is

 6     relevant.  Some of the reasons are the following ones:  Firstly and

 7     primarily, this could assist us all to understand, both the Trial Chamber

 8     and all the participants in this trial, why the protected zone of

 9     Srebrenica was established and why the Muslims from the surrounding areas

10     escaped into this zone.  Also, why later on they wanted to make a

11     breakthrough at any cost, without waiting for anything else.  That is one

12     reason.

13             It is also relevant in order to establish the context of the

14     events that took place in 1995.  The Defence and the Prosecution do not

15     agree about many of these things.  Firstly, the Prosecution has a thesis

16     about ethnic cleansing carried out by the the Serbs in the territory of

17     the eastern Podrinje.  And they even said that the military activities of

18     the VRS are based on that.  You can see that in their motion that's in

19     paragraph 10.  Further on, war criminals, which we talked about when I

20     tendered page 67, and the ideological leaders who are mentioned here and

21     whom this witness tried to identify among the prisoners, are listed in

22     this book.  They were the military authorities in Srebrenica in the

23     period when it was a demilitarised zone.  They co-operated with UNPROFOR

24     as well, and many witnesses brought here by the OTP are familiar with the

25     incidents in this period.

Page 3634

 1             Thirdly, this could also assist us to understand the behaviour of

 2     the Muslim authorities in Srebrenica in the relevant time-period, I mean

 3     both the civilian and military authorities, and when they made the

 4     decisions that we talked about, and when they held meetings at the post

 5     office building, which was discussed with a witness yesterday.  I would

 6     ask you to consider the relevance of this document from all aspects.

 7             I now asked for page 67 to be shown on the screen and to be

 8     tendered.  It talks about ideological leaders, commanding officers, and

 9     it is from this book.  It was a basic document from which this witness,

10     in a specific given situation that he testifies about, questioned the

11     prisoners of war.

12             There are many other relevant things, but if you allow me, I

13     would continue with additional two or three questions, and with that I

14     would finish the cross-examination of this witness.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please carry on, Mr. Tolimir, with your

16     questions.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

18             Could we please show page 67.

19        Q.   We can see it now.  I began reading it.  And it says:

20             "During the armed conflicts which took place in this territory,

21     the presence of Muslim military units or armed formations which came from

22     or originated from other parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina was never noted.  On

23     the contrary, all testimonies, both from the Serbian and from the Muslim

24     side," and please turn to the next page, "show that in the area of

25     Bratunac, Milici, Skelani, and Srebrenica municipalities, only the armed

Page 3635

 1     forces established with local Muslim population were active."

 2             On the basis of what I just read out, my question for the witness

 3     to be the following:

 4             Does this correspond with the situation in Srebrenica and the

 5     surrounding villages?  Thank you.

 6        A.   [No interpretation]

 7             THE WITNESS:  Microphone, please.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... please wait a

 9     moment.  There is a problem with the microphone.

10             Now you should continue.  We didn't hear anything yet.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would not agree with the

12     formulation set out in the book, namely Srebrenica was the zone and the

13     place into which refugees from Zvornik and partly from Visegrad and some

14     other municipalities did come.  And the armed forces which attacked out

15     of Srebrenica were not only composed of the population coming from the

16     town and the municipality of Srebrenica, but also refugees from other

17     municipalities who were accommodated in Srebrenica.  Therefore, it was

18     not just local population that set up the armed forces; there were other

19     people as well.  That was the information that I had, and that is my

20     view.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please show page 69 in

23     e-court.  Thank you.

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   In your statement, you said - and we have just discussed

Page 3636

 1     that - that to Beara's question whether you had any list of persons,

 2     Muslims who were suspected of war crimes, you responded by saying that

 3     you have the book, which we can now see in e-court, and that the list of

 4     such persons is laid out systematically in the book.  And it begins on

 5     page 69 in the electronic edition of this book.  It continues, but we can

 6     see the first page here.

 7             My question is this:  When you told Beara that you could use

 8     Ivanisevic book, did you have in mind precisely the list that we can now

 9     see in e-court in front of us?  And the list has a total of 53 pages.

10     Thank you.

11        A.   Yes, it was easier for me that way because I had some names in my

12     mine that was a result of my work when taking statements.  So I knew some

13     names by heart.  But it was easier for me to use the book, and that was

14     it.  I couldn't know it all.  There were people about whom I could only

15     learn from the book because other people had collected information about

16     them.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18        A.   I used the book as an easier way to do this.

19        Q.   Thank you.  We can see the page that is in front of us, page 69.

20     We can see in e-court the idealogical leaders, officials, and organisers;

21     is that correct?

22        A.   That's what it says.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If we have a look at page 76,

25     please.  So we can skip around seven pages.

Page 3637

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation].

 2        Q.   Here it says, at the bottom, the commanders; the names of persons

 3     who were in command positions are listed here.  Is that correct?

 4        A.   That's what it says.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us move another ten pages

 7     onwards and have a look at page 85 in e-court, please.

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   We can see the title here which says "Direct Perpetrators."

10             Does the list contain the persons who were direct perpetrators of

11     crimes on the basis of which you conducted the checks?

12        A.   Yes.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please show page 105 in

14     e-court.  Thank you.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Here we can see that the title on this page is "Looters," and so

17     and so forth.  But we can see the specific names of persons who looted

18     Serb villages.  Thank you.  I wouldn't go on leafing through the list,

19     but was this book the basis for the task which Colonel Beara issued to

20     you at that time?

21        A.   Yes, it was a basis for me, because it was the result of a

22     collection of materials about the incidents that we are talking about.  A

23     number of people were engaged in this, and I couldn't know of all these

24     people.  I only knew those that I learned about in my personal work.  So

25     as a systematic overview, the book served as a basis for me to discharge

Page 3638

 1     my duty.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tender 1D223 into evidence.

 4     Thank you.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, what is the position of the

 6     Prosecution to this motion?

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I join the General in offering this book into

 8     evidence, and though I -- trying to get it translated will be very

 9     difficult, perhaps they can pick out particular appropriate passages they

10     think reflect the most important information.  I know the CLSS people

11     will not want to be able to take on a book of this sort, so we will

12     discuss the matter and try to reach a good arrangement.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  At the moment, we have no translation of the

15     book, even not portions of the book.  This is one problem.  Therefore we

16     will only mark it for identification.  On the other hand, we see that

17     Mr. Tolimir is tendering the whole book as evidence; there's no objection

18     by Mr. McCloskey, but he -- Mr. McCloskey said "I'm trying to get it --"

19     no, sorry.  "Perhaps they," the Defence, "can pick out particular

20     appropriate passages they think reflect the most important information."

21             We will not decide at the moment to save court time about if we

22     receive the whole book or parts of the book.  We invite the parties to

23     make a common application which parts of the book should be tendered and

24     which parts not, taking into account the burden for the translation unit

25     of the Tribunal.

Page 3639

 1             Please carry on, Mr. Tolimir.  No, sorry.  Ms. Registrar.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  1D223 will be D74, marked for identification.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 4             Mr. Tolimir.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  My legal

 6     advisor will comply with your instructions, and I don't think that the

 7     CLSS would have many problems because these are just the names of victims

 8     and villages and there's no need to translate it.  90 per cent of the

 9     book comprises those names and documents, it's just some conclusions that

10     need to be translated.  Thank you.

11             I would like to thank this witness for his professionalism and

12     propriety in the time-period, and also to the sincerity of his answers

13     that he provided, regardless of whether they favour the Prosecution or

14     the Defence.  I would like to wish you a safe trip home, God bless you,

15     thank you very much.

16             I would like to thank the interpreters, the Trial Chamber, and I

17     would also like to thank on behalf of the Defence to the Prosecution and

18     everyone else that assisted us today.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

21             Mr. McCloskey, do you have re-examination?

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.

23             Could we put back P643 on the -- on e-court.  That should be that

24     aerial image.

25                           Re-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

Page 3640

 1        Q.   Mr. Celanovic, you had identified, with an X for us, the

 2     Vuk Karadzic School where you saw prisoners on the 13th; correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   You've also said that the Dutch Battalion people that you saw in

 5     Bratunac were housed at a school, and I think you said it was the school

 6     next to the health centre, and I think you said that that was the

 7     Vuk Karadzic School.  And I know that Vuk Karadzic is an important person

 8     and he gets named a lot of things and that has changed over the years a

 9     lot, so could you clarify -- can you find the school where the

10     Dutch Battalion were staying for those days on the map so we can just be

11     perfectly clear.  First of all, were they staying at the same school

12     prisoners were staying at?

13        A.   No.  There's mistake in the name of the school.  The school where

14     the prisoners were is the Branko Radicevic school.  I made mistakes

15     earlier, but now I'm sure; I'm certain about that.  And the school where

16     the DutchBat troops, UNPROFOR troops, were put up was the Vuk Karadzic

17     School.  I can find it here mand I can mark it here on the aerial photo.

18     It just needs to be zoomed in.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay.  If we could zoom in.  I think just showing

20     us where this school is is probably the best at this point.  Better stop

21     there.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could we please scroll down a

23     little bit and to the right.  In fact, yeah, the opposite.  Just a

24     moment.

25             Yes, I can actually identify the location.  Should I mark it?

Page 3641

 1     Should I circle it?

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 3        Q.   Yeah, make just a big circle.

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   Okay.  And just again, so it's clear to all of us, put a big X at

 6     that school that you saw prisoners.

 7        A.   Oh, no, I made a mistake.  I wanted to mark that school with an

 8     X.  And now as for the school where I saw the prisoners, I have to stand

 9     up.  It's a little bit awkward because I'm left-handed.  This is the

10     school.  Okay.  Now, I circled the school where I saw the prisoners.

11        Q.   Okay.  Well, we've got -- why don't you put a letter A next to

12     the school where you saw the prisoners.

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   Thank you.  Now, do you remember what the name of the school

15     under the letter A was called back in July 1995?

16        A.   Branko Radicevic.

17        Q.   You sure it wasn't called the Vuk Karadzic school back then?

18        A.   I will give you a broader explanation in my answer, because I

19     don't want to make a mistake here.  May I?

20        Q.   Please.

21        A.   This building that I've just circled was a school that used to be

22     called Vuk Karadzic.  And it was the only elementary school in Bratunac.

23     However, later on, because the population increased, the other building

24     was made, another school building - I made a circle to mark that, the big

25     circle - and then the new school came to be called Vuk Karadzic, and the

Page 3642

 1     old school building was now -- the school there, was now named

 2     Branko Radicevic.  That's what I know about that.

 3        Q.   All right.

 4        A.   And perhaps you can identify the buildings on the basis of their

 5     size and the markings.

 6        Q.   I think that helps us.

 7        A.   So in the smaller building - I will now put a dot next to

 8     it - this is where the prisoners were.  And the other building that I

 9     marked with an X, this is where the DutchBat troops were located, most of

10     them.  Two or three of the soldiers were put up in the dorm of the

11     military police platoon.  They spent the night there.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I interrupt you just for a better

13     understanding.  You told us that the other building was made, another

14     school building.  When did that happen?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before the war.  I can't really

16     remember the year.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

18             Mr. McCloskey.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:

20        Q.   Now, were you aware that some of these Dutch soldiers were housed

21     at the Hotel Fontana that you've already shown us on the map?

22        A.   I did not know that.

23        Q.   And were you aware of where the main contingent of the Dutch

24     soldiers were housed in the Srebrenica/Bratunac area?  I mean generally.

25     Where was their base normally, where they all lived?

Page 3643

 1        A.   Their base was in Potocari.  And I think that the main contingent

 2     was there.  But they had smaller centres in other villages where -- from

 3     which they patrolled and did other things, but their main base was in

 4     Potocari.

 5        Q.   Do you know why these soldiers housed at the school in Bratunac

 6     were not allowed to go back to their main base in Potocari after they

 7     were captured or turned themselves in or over?

 8        A.   I don't know that.  I don't know why they were not allowed.

 9        Q.   Did you hear, while you were there near the Bratunac headquarters

10     during these days, that the VRS threatened to kill Dutch soldiers held in

11     VRS custody if air-strikes continued?  Did you hear about that?

12        A.   No, I never heard any threats.

13        Q.   Did you hear that threats were made, was that talk among the

14     soldiers, was it reported to you by your boss, anything like that?

15        A.   No, I did not hear about any threats from anyone on any occasion.

16        Q.   Okay.  The book, "The Chronicle of Our Graves," were the facts

17     and incidents and similar things noted in that book, were those sorts of

18     things well known to the population of Bratunac at the time in July 1995?

19        A.   Well, I cannot agree that they were well known to the population

20     because those were the facts known only to those who gathered the

21     statements and the inhabitants of the villagers who were actually

22     victims.  Well, it's impossible for the rest of the population, the

23     general population, to know everything.  They knew in general what was

24     going on, but they didn't know the names of the victims and perpetrators,

25     because if you say something, a fact of general knowledge, then it should

Page 3644

 1     be known to everyone or almost everyone.

 2        Q.   I'm not asking if the population knows everything.  Not -- no one

 3     knows everything.  But you would agree with me that the population was

 4     generally aware of the allegations of horrible war crimes by the Muslims

 5     of Srebrenica during the war; isn't that true?

 6        A.   That's true.

 7        Q.   In fact, many, many of the population of the Serbs that lived

 8     there had lost sons and fathers during the fighting that had occurred

 9     from 1992 all the way up to 1995; that's true too, isn't it?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And is it fair to say that it was very natural for that

12     population to be very angry and very upset about what they perceived as

13     horrible crimes perpetrated against their family members and neighbours

14     and friends?

15        A.   Well, it's only natural for them to be angry.

16        Q.   And, in fact, wasn't it part of the moral, legal, and religious

17     affairs to propagate information about these atrocities so that soldiers

18     were aware of it when they went to fight?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Are you familiar with the publication by General Gvero called

21     "A Silk Knot for Alija" that he sent out to the VRS?  General Gvero, as

22     you know -- well, sorry, just -- if you could answer that question.

23        A.   No, I never have held this document in my hands, and this is

24     indeed the first that I hear of it.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

Page 3645

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Since

 2     this was not dealt with in the Prosecutor's examination-in-chief, if he

 3     wants to ask questions, then he should show this book to the witness.

 4     Thank you.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  First of all, I would like to ask Mr. McCloskey

 6     if he wants to -- if he tenders this marked aerial photo.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, thank you, Mr. President, for reminding me

 8     of that.  We do need to put that in.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received before we lose these

10     markings.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P654.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Chamber didn't see exactly to which part of

13     the cross-examination you were referring by putting the last question to

14     the witness.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, the -- General Tolimir spent a

16     good amount of time -- it's best that I explain this outside the presence

17     of the witness, I think, just for the fairness of everyone.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before we break for that purpose, how much time

19     do you need for re-examination?

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Five minutes -- I shouldn't -- should do it.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In that case, we should ask the witness to leave

22     the courtroom for a short while.

23                           [The witness stands down]

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  There's two issues.  One, General Tolimir argued

Page 3646

 1     at length on what this book was all about and why it was relevant to his

 2     case, and what I'm getting to goes directly to contradict that.  But more

 3     in particular, he spent a fair amount of time suggesting and showing that

 4     this witness never did anything to harm Resid Sinanovic.

 5             And what I'm pointing out now is that there was a very well known

 6     environment of hate between these sides.  And as he has already said,

 7     there were very few people guarding the Muslim prisoners.  And that in

 8     that environment of hate this witness would have been in the situation to

 9     know he was turning over Resid Sinanovic and these men to a situation

10     that was very dangerous for them because of that environment of hate.

11     And that's what I wanted to ask him about.  Was he not aware that these

12     men were in danger.

13             He talked a lot about how dangerous the Muslims were on Bratunac,

14     but I want to bring out how dangerous Bratunac was on the Muslims.  You

15     will see evidence in this case of the over 100 bodies that came out of

16     the Vuk Karadzic School from Serb civil protection witnesses that pulled

17     those bodies.

18             So that's pretty much it.  But these are the big issues of the

19     case.  They touched on them.  I want to get back at them a bit.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please tell us what that has to do with

21     the publication of General Gvero called "A Silk Knot for Alija"?

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Your Honour, it's my position that this book that

23     he's talked about is a foundational element in the Serbs vilification of

24     the Muslims which is, as you'll hear from this case, is a critical part

25     of the war effort, both in my view to instill soldiers' willingness to

Page 3647

 1     fight and in also instilling the effort to have them commit crimes.

 2             Before you can commit any kind of mass slaughter like this, it's

 3     historical that the perpetrators will vilify their victims.  This book is

 4     part of that vilification process.  That's why I offer it into evidence.

 5     It's clear as a bell.  This man is an officer in moral, legal, and

 6     religious affairs.  General Gvero is the general in charge of moral,

 7     legal affairs.  He is a colleague of General Tolimir.  He wrote one of

 8     the most insidious propaganda vilification pieces of the war called

 9     "A Silk Knot For Alija" on the very similar nature of this book that the

10     General wants in.  And as an officer and a lawyer, there's a very good

11     chance he would have read this.  And in which case I would have provided

12     it to you so you could see it.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  This -- I think this is quite

14     sufficient.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm sorry for arguing so much, but --

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I just wanted to have the link to this book which

17     was mentioned in your last question to which Mr. Tolimir was objecting.

18             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I apologise, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If you don't deal with this book any longer, this

20     specific book, the witness has said he has no knowledge about that at

21     all, never seen it.  And it's the first time I hear of it.  We should try

22     to continue.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  Because of his answer, I had no intention

24     to bring it for -- if he'd seen it, I would have asked him about it and

25     dug it up for you; but he didn't, so it's not relevant.  Then we could

Page 3648

 1     leave this problem.  And the witness should be brought in again.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please sit down.

 4             Mr. McCloskey.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:

 6        Q.   Mr. Celanovic, were you aware that Muslim men and women were

 7     bused towards Kladanj on these days, the 12th and 13th of July

 8     specifically?

 9        A.   Yes, I'm sure about the 12th.  I saw them pass by.

10        Q.   And did you see the -- many of the civilians of Bratunac,

11     including women and other people, throwing stones at the Muslim buses and

12     saying bad things to them as the buses went by?

13        A.   No.  This did not happen at the place where I was, the place

14     where I was and from which I saw them.

15        Q.   Did you hear reports of this happening?  This would have clearly

16     been a military police matter, I'm sure you'll agree with me.

17        A.   I heard that there were some events of that nature or attempts to

18     do that, for instance, in Potocari when people were put on to the

19     vehicles, but that on the 12th, the UNPROFOR members prevented that as

20     did the military police and the police that were deployed there from the

21     Bratunac Brigade and from other units.  That's all I know about that from

22     my conversations with the military policemen in the subsequent period.

23        Q.   So you were aware, then, of the environment of hate present in

24     Bratunac when you turned over Resid Sinanovic and the other Muslims to go

25     be put in that school?

Page 3649

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   With that environment of hate and the very few people guarding it

 3     as you've described, weren't those Muslims also in danger?

 4        A.   Well, it's difficult to say that.  They were put in facilities,

 5     secured and guarded by the Republika Srpska army troops, and if any

 6     attacks came from the outside or if there were any problems from the

 7     inside, they were there to deal with it.  But there were no assaults by

 8     the citizens on the facilities where the prisoners were housed.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I wanted to say that

11     this witness did not hand over Resid and that again this will harm him in

12     the environment where he lives.  He had just been brought to this

13     witness's office by the relevant organs and was then taken away by the

14     Special Police.  This witness has nothing to do with any surrender of

15     anyone into anyone's hands, because the witness himself explained to us

16     that he has had problems because of some statements that were made that

17     were not entirely accurate.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But this is not really an objection to the

19     question the Prosecutor has put to the witness, which is answered.  We

20     should come to an end, Mr. McCloskey.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I understand.

22        Q.   Sir, did you -- were you aware of the evidence -- you said you

23     saw -- you were familiar with the Blagojevic trial, the Popovic trial.

24     Were you aware of the evidence from Bratunac civil protection people of

25     picking up over 50 bodies from in and around the school that you have

Page 3650

 1     marked where the prisoners were held?

 2        A.   I was not aware of any evidence except that at one of the trials

 3     I was asked the question whether I knew about this incident, that on the

 4     12th or the 13th more than 50 people were executed at this school, but I

 5     didn't know that.  And I repeat once again that I didn't know that.

 6        Q.   Last question:  The evidence in this case which is now before the

 7     Trial Chamber shows that five of the six people who you interviewed that

 8     day, including Resid Sinanovic, showed up in mass graves in the Zvornik

 9     area.  Do you know anything about how those men that you interviewed

10     ended up in mass graves?

11        A.   I don't know how they ended up in mass graves.  If they were

12     found in the vicinity of Zvornik, it means that they were probably

13     transported from the Branko Radicevic school in the direction of Zvornik,

14     but after the police had taken them and handed them over at the

15     collection centre or reception centre - I'm not sure how best to

16     formulate that.  But how they came to end up in Zvornik or the

17     surrounding area of Zvornik is something I don't know.  I have no

18     information about that; I can only assume.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, no further questions, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Mindua has a question for the witness.

21                           Questioned by the Court:

22             JUDGE MINDUA:  [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

23             Witness, I go through the summary that the OTP has given to us

24     regarding your previous statements and I can see that you are a trained

25     lawyer and that in July 1995 you were a member of the Bratunac Brigade

Page 3651

 1     and you were a desk officer at the department for legal and moral

 2     affairs.  I have a point of clarification to put to you.  I would like to

 3     know whether you read law in a university or in a school of higher

 4     education?

 5        A.   Yes, at the faculty of law of the Belgrade university.

 6             JUDGE MINDUA:  Very well.  And what I would like to know is

 7     whether you were a member of armed forces in July 1995, and if so, of

 8     which army and at which rank?

 9        A.   I was a member of the armed forces of the Army of Republika

10     Srpska.  In order to make it clearer, I will use the western term:  I was

11     a private; that was my status.  So I was a soldier with no rank.  And if

12     I may just add something to make it even clearer.  May I?  Thank you.

13             The Prosecutor mentioned the word officer, but an officer can be

14     interpreted both as an official and as an officer.  I was a desk officer

15     in the sense that I was an official who was in charge of religious and

16     legal affairs, so it is just an error in terminology.  I was a desk

17     officer, but you do not have to be a military officer in order to do

18     this.

19             JUDGE MINDUA:  So just to clarify, you were within the brigade,

20     but you were not wearing any uniform and you did not have any rank; is

21     that correct?  Apparently your answer was yes.  Very well.  So I would

22     like to know whether you are retired now or whether you still work within

23     the army?

24        A.   I did wear a uniform as a soldier throughout the time I spent

25     there.  I held no rank, and I'm not retired.  I'm still young.

Page 3652

 1             JUDGE MINDUA:  But you left the army, didn't you?  You work as a

 2     civilian these days, don't you?

 3        A.   I've been demobilised, so the answer is yes.  Yes.  If I may add

 4     something to make it clearer:  I was a civilian at the outbreak of the

 5     war, but as I had served the army in the former Yugoslavia, that is to

 6     say, the Yugoslav People's Army, I was made a reserve soldier.  As a

 7     middle-aged man, I was mobilised during the time of the armed conflict.

 8     After that, I was demobilised and, therefore, I became a civilian again

 9     and I was doing a civilian job.  So I'm not someone who was employed in

10     the army and who would be retired as military personnel.  It was my

11     misfortune that I was a lawyer, so I had to do all kinds of work, because

12     they needed someone who had a BA in law and they needed someone like that

13     to do that kind of work.  And I also had experience from the JNA, the

14     Yugoslav People's Army.

15             JUDGE MINDUA:  [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.

16     You answered all my questions.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You will be pleased to hear that this concludes

18     your examination.  Thank you that you were able to come to The Hague

19     again and to provide us with your answers and your knowledge.  Thank you

20     again.

21             Two very short matters.  And I apologise for the other

22     Trial Chamber who is sitting in this courtroom this afternoon.  We have

23     received, with the previous witness, two versions of the former

24     transcript.  This is P629, under seal, and P630.  I think the letter,

25     P630, should be marked but not admitted because it's the same content and

Page 3653

 1     it was in closed session; it shouldn't be in public.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That's correct, Mr. President.  And before you

 3     go, we had to cancel Witness 103, which we've informed the Defence.  And

 4     so we have one more witness tomorrow, a Bosnian witness, and then we --

 5     who's number 110, and then Mr. Blaszczyk will continue his -- I believe

 6     he is in cross-examination now for the Drina Corps collection.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Chamber would appreciate if you could mail to

 8     the Defence and to the Chamber what you are doing with -- which witnesses

 9     you are calling for the rest of this week and the beginning of next week

10     so that we have an overview.  And please indicate what to do with the

11     exhibits provisionally tendered with Witness 103, which is PW-036.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  We have to adjourn very

14     late today.  And we will resume tomorrow morning, I think, in

15     Courtroom I.  We adjourn.

16                           [The witness withdrew]

17                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.59 p.m.,

18                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 8th day

19                           of July, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.