1 Thursday, 8 July 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning to everybody in the courtroom.
6 Ms. Chittenden, is the next witness ready?
7 MS. CHITTENDEN: Yes. Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours,
8 everyone in the courtroom. Our first witness this morning is
9 Witness 110, who will be known by the pseudonym of PW-043. He will be
10 testifying with face and voice distortion.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
12 Could the witness be brought in, please.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning, sir. Please wait a moment -- no,
15 please open the screens first.
16 Good morning to you again, sir. Welcome to the Tribunal. Would
17 you please read aloud the affirmation on the card which is shown to you
18 now. Would you please read aloud the text on the card.
19 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please sit down. We have a problem. We didn't
21 hear the English interpretation on channel 4. And not the B/C/S
22 translation? No.
23 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We seem to have had a
25 technical problem in the booth. Could the witness please repeat the
1 solemn declaration.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm very sorry, because of technical problems
3 please repeat the solemn declaration.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
5 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. And now please sit down.
7 I think you know the procedure in this Tribunal. There are still
8 protective measures for you in place and your name will not be broadcast
9 and your face and voice will not be seen and heard outside the courtroom.
10 Ms. Chittenden has, I think, some questions for you.
11 Please, Ms. Chittenden.
12 WITNESS: PW-043
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 Examination by Ms. Chittenden:
15 Q. Good morning, Witness.
16 A. Good morning.
17 Q. We met yesterday. My name is Caitlin Chittenden and I'll be
18 asking you some questions today on behalf of the Office of the
20 MS. CHITTENDEN: Please could we have Exhibit P649 in e-court.
21 Q. Witness, you'll see something coming up on the screen in front of
22 you now. Please can you read it to yourself and confirm that that's your
23 name written next to PW-043.
24 A. Yes.
25 MS. CHITTENDEN: Your Honours, I would like to tender this into
1 evidence as an exhibit under seal.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
3 MS. CHITTENDEN:
4 Q. Witness, do you recall testifying in the case of Prosecutor
5 versus Popovic et al. on 23 January 2007?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Was your testimony at that time truthful and accurate?
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 Q. Have you had the opportunity to listen to your Popovic testimony
10 again before coming here today?
11 A. Yes, I had the opportunity.
12 Q. If you were asked the same questions again in court today, would
13 you answer in the same way?
14 A. Yes, I would.
15 MS. CHITTENDEN: Your Honours, at this time I would like to offer
16 the witness's testimony in Popovic into evidence. It is P647, which
17 should be admitted under seal; and P648, the public version.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: They will be received with the given numbers.
19 MS. CHITTENDEN: Your Honours, at this time I would also like to
20 offer into evidence the exhibits admitted in conjunction with this
21 witness's testimony in the Popovic case. The first exhibit I would like
22 to offer for admission is P650, under seal. This is the witness's
23 statement to the OTP on 21 January 2007. This statement was admitted in
24 Popovic as the underlying Rule 92 ter statement.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You should continue with the other one.
1 MS. CHITTENDEN: The second exhibit I would like to offer is an
2 intercept, it's P651. I would like to offer this into evidence as an
3 exhibit under seal.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Both will be received under seal.
5 MS. CHITTENDEN: Thank you, Your Honours.
6 For the record, the third exhibit which was admitted via this
7 witness's testimony in Popovic is an intercept at 1305 hours on
8 21 July 1995. This has already been admitted in this case through PW-032
9 as P269A. However, I would like to request that this be placed under
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Was that not received under seal?
12 MS. CHITTENDEN: I don't believe it was, Your Honour. I would
13 like to put this under seal, please, as well as P269C.
14 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It was previously received under seal. I'm told
16 that there's no need to do it again.
17 MS. CHITTENDEN: Thank you, Your Honours.
18 Your Honours, I would now like to read a short summary of the
19 witness's testimony in Popovic.
20 Q. Witness, after I read out the summary, I'll have a few further
21 questions for you.
22 MS. CHITTENDEN: Your Honours, if we may move into private
23 session for a moment, please.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
25 [Private session]
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session.
17 MS. CHITTENDEN: As an intercept operator, the witness followed
18 the established procedure at his unit for scanning, recording, and
19 transcribing intercepts into notebooks. Normal practice was to work in
20 two-hour shifts followed by a four-hour break, depending on how busy it
21 was. The soldiers present were divided into two alternating groups, each
22 of whom would be on duty for seven days and off duty for seven days. The
23 witness remained in the ABiH until mid-October 1997.
24 Your Honours, that concludes my summary. I now have a couple of
25 questions I would like to put to the witness, if I may.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, please, do it.
2 MS. CHITTENDEN:
3 Q. Witness, I would like to show you a booklet of two intercepts
4 that we have compiled. For the record, these intercepts are Exhibit P651
5 and P269A.
6 MS. CHITTENDEN: Please could I ask for the assistance of the
7 Court Usher.
8 Q. Witness, please could you take a moment to look through this
9 booklet and let me know whether you recognise your handwriting on the two
11 A. Yes, I do recognise it.
12 Q. And can you check both of the intercepts for me behind tabs 1 and
13 2. It should just be the last page in the booklet there, if you turn to
14 the very last page.
15 A. Yes, I have found it.
16 Q. Can you confirm that that is your handwriting?
17 A. Yes, it is.
18 Q. Witness, were you the operator who recorded and transcribed these
19 two intercepted conversations?
20 A. I do not remember the conversations, but this is my handwriting
21 so probably I was the operator.
22 Q. Did you review these two intercepts before you testified in the
23 Popovic case?
24 A. I do not remember the first one and I did review the second one.
25 Q. Thank you. Did you have a chance to look at this intercept
1 booklet and these two intercepts yesterday?
2 A. I did review them yesterday, but I cannot seem to remember the
3 first conversation. I do remember the second one if it's just what is on
4 the last page here.
5 Q. Thank you. Did you look at an original notebook yesterday?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And did you see in that original notebook those conversations?
8 A. I saw the original conversations. I remembered that I saw the
9 second of these two, but I cannot seem to remember the first one.
10 MS. CHITTENDEN: Please could I ask for the assistance of the
11 Court Usher. I will just pass you the original notebook.
12 Q. Witness, please could you look at the bottom of the page on the
13 right-hand side and let me know if that's your handwriting.
14 A. Yes, it is.
15 Q. Now, in the booklet, the blue booklet, if you can turn to the
16 intercept behind tab 1 and let me know if that's the same intercept as
17 what's in the original notebook. So it's the intercept behind tab 1, not
18 the one that you're looking at the moment in the book, but the first
20 MS. CHITTENDEN: Please could I ask for the assistance of the
21 Court Usher.
22 Your Honours, if I just may turn to the page in the booklet for
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These two are not the same.
25 MS. CHITTENDEN:
1 Q. Witness, just to be clear, I'd like you to look at that -- the
2 first tab of the booklet, which is the intercept of 1242, P651; and the
3 original notebook which you have in front of you, let me know if they're
4 the same.
5 A. Yes, it is.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MS. CHITTENDEN: Your Honours, I have no further questions.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Chamber would like to have the original
9 book -- notebook.
10 The Chamber has seen it, the original, and could it be forwarded
11 to Mr. Tolimir and Mr. Gajic, please.
12 Mr. Tolimir, yes, have a look. Do you have cross-examination for
13 this witness? It's now your turn.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. May
15 there be peace in this house for all those present and may God's will be
16 done in these proceedings, and may the outcome be as God wishes and not
17 as I wish. I wish the witness a pleasant stay in The Hague. I will have
18 a few questions for this witness.
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, as you have a pseudonym, I will address
21 you as "Mr. Witness." The Prosecutor read parts of your statement in
22 open and closed sessions. I would just ask you this. In paragraph 5 in
23 the first line --
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And can we please show the
25 statement first, it's P560 [as interpreted], please, so that the witness
1 can follow his own statement. Thank you.
2 Thank you. We can see it now, we can see page 1 in the original
3 language. Can we please move on to the second page. Thank you.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
5 Q. You can see paragraph 5. You stated that you came to the unit on
6 the 30th of April, 1995, and that you were there until the
7 12th of February, 1996. My question is the following: Did you arrive to
8 a place that was vacant or were you sent there because the manning levels
9 were not adequate?
10 A. Can you please just repeat the question.
11 Q. Thank you. Did you arrive to the unit in April 1995 -- in 1994,
12 to your unit, to a place that was vacated or because there was
13 insufficient personnel of the adequate profile in your unit? Thank you.
14 A. I came to the unit as a wounded soldier so I wouldn't go out to
15 the front, and the unit was operative even before I got there. So it was
16 not because of the manning levels.
17 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 7, please have a look at it, you say in
18 the first line that you were working two hours per shift and then would
19 get four hours of rest. And that there would be two intercept operators
20 in the room and that each of them had a set for himself, and that you
21 worked on a device that scanned only one frequency. Did I quote properly
22 what you said under item 7? Thank you.
23 A. Yes, you quoted what it says there.
24 Q. Thank you. This is my question: Was the scope of your unit's
25 work small and could you record, transcribe, process, and dispatch more
1 than one, two, three, or four conversations during one two-hour shift?
2 Thank you.
3 A. The scope of the work was not always the same. It could happen
4 that there would be a number of conversations or for longer periods there
5 would be nothing. We recorded the conversations and only then we would
6 transcribe them as much as we could.
7 Q. Thank you. How many conversations could you process during one
8 two-hour shift in practice?
9 A. I cannot remember exactly. It all depends on the length of a
10 given conversation.
11 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 7 you say that the device only scanned
12 one frequency. Can you tell us why and how this was possible and what
13 were the technical characteristics of these devices? Thank you.
14 A. I could not remember that now because I was not familiar with the
15 devices before I got into my unit. I only knew about the devices what I
16 learned from my predecessors.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. Chittenden.
18 MS. CHITTENDEN: I'd just like to clarify for the record that
19 what the statement in paragraph 7 actually says is:
20 "I do not remember very well, but it seems to me that I was
21 working on a device that scanned only one frequency."
22 So that's not -- that's not quite the same as what was quoted
23 on -- sorry, lines 10 and 11.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is now really a quote, but what is the
25 difference to the question?
1 MS. CHITTENDEN: I apologise. The difference is in lines 10 and
2 11 the accused said the device only scanned one frequency, but the
3 witness actually said he wasn't sure, but it seems that he was working on
4 a device that scanned only one frequency. Just to be clear. I
5 apologise, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
7 Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
9 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Mr. Witness, thanks also to Ms. Chittenden, she quoted your
11 statement precisely now. So can you please now answer the question. Did
12 the device that you worked with scan only one frequency? Thank you.
13 A. I couldn't remember that right now.
14 Q. Thank you. But when you wrote the statement - we see that it was
15 recorded in 2007 - that was just what you said, that you do not precisely
16 remember but that it scanned only one frequency. In the notes that you
17 just had a chance to have a look at written in your handwriting, were all
18 the conversations from one and the same frequency or not? Thank you.
19 A. I did not review the entire notebook except for the conversations
20 that have to do with this trial so that I don't know.
21 Q. Thank you. It would be very important for us if you could
22 remember why the device scanned only one frequency and whether all the
23 other devices also scanned one frequency each? Thank you.
24 A. I cannot remember about this device, but it was not the case that
25 all devices were scanning only one frequency each.
1 Q. Thank you. Could all the devices scan various frequencies within
2 the radio network? Thank you.
3 A. I know that some of them could, but I cannot remember about all
4 of them.
5 Q. In any case, the one you worked with did scan frequencies, yes or
7 A. Well, I'm telling you that right now I cannot remember that.
8 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber when the device
9 is not scanning a frequency, what do you do with it then? How do you
10 choose a particular channel if it cannot scan the radio waves? Thank
12 A. I cannot remember that now.
13 Q. Thank you. That is sufficient. In paragraph 8, please have a
14 look at it now. I will not quote it. I will just retell what it says
15 there. In lines 4 and 5 you say that you remember that you only had one
16 tape and that you would record new conversations over the ones that were
17 already recorded once the tape was full. Is that correct or not? Thank
19 A. Yes, that's correct.
20 Q. Can you please tell us and answer my question by saying whether
21 this one single tape satisfied the needs that you had? Thank you.
22 A. No, it did not meet our needs, but that was what we had and we
23 had to work with it and do as much work as we could.
24 Q. Thank you. In the same paragraph, in line 2, you say that your
25 commander listened to all recorded conversations. Am I right, it's
1 line 2:
2 "The commander listened to all recorded conversations ..."
3 Thank you.
4 A. Yes, that's what it says, but I really cannot remember that now.
5 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me when did he listen to the recorded
6 conversations, during your shift or after your shift ended? Do you
7 remember how he used to do that? Thank you.
8 A. When there was a conversation that we deemed to be interesting,
9 then we would call him to check and establish whether it was transcribed
10 in the same way as it was recorded.
11 Q. Thank you. You said in the statement that he listened to all
12 recorded conversations and not only when you called him. Is there now an
13 inconsistency between what you're saying now and your statement? Thank
15 A. Believe me, I cannot really remember that now.
16 Q. Thank you. Can you remember any situation in which the commander
17 listened to a conversation you were recording and when did he do that, at
18 the time of your shift or after your shift? Thank you.
19 A. Well, I can, for example, remember that on one occasion I asked
20 him to come and listen to a conversation because it was a fairly lengthy
21 one and I was worried. I thought I might have missed something in the
22 conversation, so I wanted him to listen to it to see that everything had
23 been recorded correctly.
24 Q. Thank you. At the time the commander would listen to recorded
25 conversations, would you be able to use a band to -- a tape to record
1 another conversation if there were participants in a conversation on a
2 frequency that you were scanning?
3 A. Well, the tape I used, the device I used, couldn't be used to
4 record another conversation while we were listening to a previous
5 conversation --
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir. Mr. Tolimir, I had to stop you
7 again because you were overlapping and it's too fast for the
9 Now put the question to the witness that you wanted to ask.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the accused, please.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I didn't hear the interpretation of
13 what you just said.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I asked you not to overlap, please, and wait
15 until the answer is recorded. You were too fast. Please carry on.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I've
17 received the interpretation now.
18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Witness, you heard the comment that the Presiding Judge has made.
20 Please slow down a little, pause after my questions, and then we'll be
21 able to proceed more efficiently.
22 With regard to the information on participants, as you call them,
23 did you record this information in log-books for each conversation? You
24 mention this in item 9 if you can't remember this? Thank you.
25 A. I think that we noted down the details and that we had to do
2 Q. With regard to the notebook you had a look at, you mentioned what
3 the Prosecution gave you, in that notebook is there the time of each
4 conversation and the date of the conversation concerned? Thank you.
5 A. As far as I can see, given what I have before me, yes, that's
7 [Defence counsel confer]
8 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Thank you. Did you bring those notebooks with you from home or
10 did you get them from the commander?
11 A. We took the notebooks or we obtained the notebooks at work. We
12 didn't carry them around.
13 Q. Thank you. Did they have any registration numbers? Were they
14 assigned officially and so on and so forth? Thank you.
15 A. I can't remember that.
16 Q. Thank you. On the premises were there other users who performed
17 the same sort of duties as your group? Were there other individuals who
18 used these interception devices? Thank you.
19 A. Yes, there were.
20 Q. Were they part of the structure of the Army of Bosnia and
21 Herzegovina or were they part of some other structure?
22 A. I wouldn't really know right now.
23 Q. Thank you. It's not that important. I'm asking you about that
24 because you mentioned this sabotage group. You didn't mention any other
25 users, and it would be natural for you to know if someone else is
1 involved in interception -- well, it would be natural for you to
2 communicate with them during a one-year period, but if you can't remember
3 the details it doesn't matter.
4 A. I don't remember, but I'm not sure. It was a long time ago.
5 [Defence counsel confer]
6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Thank you. The Usher will now return this notebook to you, the
8 one that you used, as you said. You can have a look at it, and once you
9 have done that please answer my following question -- or first, have a
10 look at the notebook and then I will put my question to you. Thank you.
11 [Defence counsel confer]
12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Thank you. While you're having a look at it, have a look at the
14 first page, the last page, the first few pages as well, and have a look
15 at the conversations that you were involved in and have you noted the
16 time and dates of those conversations? Can you see the dates and times
17 of those conversations in the notebook? Thank you.
18 Thank you. Please have a look at the conversations you are
19 testifying about here. Are the dates and times noted by those
20 conversations? Thank you. And does this correspond to the binder that
21 you have next to you that was provided to you by the Usher?
22 A. The time is there for all the conversations, but the dates were
23 noted at the beginning of the day, not for each conversation. There were
24 several conversations in the course of one day.
25 Q. Thank you. Did you all have such notebooks or similar
1 notebooks -- or did you all have such notebooks? Thank you.
2 A. We would obtain these notebooks at our work-place and we would
3 hand the notebook to each other.
4 Q. My question was whether in your group that worked in the northern
5 building or all those who intercepted conversations were people who used
6 such notebooks, or were there other notebooks as well, or were there only
7 those kinds of notebooks because the unit issued them?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Thank you. Initially you expressed doubts about the first
10 conversation that you were presented. It was in the first binder in blue
11 that the Usher gave you. Since you expressed such doubts -- well, did
12 you have a look at that conversation yesterday when you were being
13 proofed for your testimony? Thank you.
14 A. I saw this conversation, but in the list where the conversation
15 was included there was something from another conversation. I didn't
16 recognise it immediately. I thought that was part of the conversation
17 that I had to deal with too.
18 Q. Thank you. So it's a matter of confusion. There was a mistake.
19 It's not a factual error.
20 A. Yes, that's correct.
21 Q. Thank you, Witness, for those answers. Thank you for appearing
22 here. On behalf of my Defence I would like to thank you, and I wish you
23 a nice stay here. I wish you a safe trip home.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. President, I have
25 now concluded my cross-examination of this witness. Thank you.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir.
2 Ms. Chittenden, do you have re-examination?
3 MS. CHITTENDEN: No, I don't. Thank you, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would like to ask the Court Usher to bring the
5 notebook, the original notebook, again to the Bench. I would like to
6 have a look at it again.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, when you have a look at the
8 notebook, bear in mind that it doesn't have a registration number and
9 it's not even on the list which includes those registration numbers of
10 other notebooks that were tendered. Thank you.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think we all come to our findings at a later
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. We have seen it and it
15 should be returned to Ms. Chittenden. Thank you.
16 Sir, this concludes your examination. The Chamber would like to
17 thank you that you were able to come to The Hague again and to assist us.
18 We -- you are now free to return to your normal activities and your place
19 of residence, and again, thank you very much for your attendance.
20 The next witness will be available as well? I think it is -- we
21 have to arrange the system and the screen. Perhaps we should have a
22 short break of ten minutes, and then we resume.
23 The Court Usher will assist you after we have raised, and we will
24 resume five minutes before 10.00.
25 --- Break taken at 9.48 a.m.
1 [The witness withdrew]
2 --- On resuming at 10.00 a.m.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning, Mr. Thayer.
4 MR. THAYER: Good morning, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If I remember correctly, we have the witness we
6 know already.
7 MR. THAYER: The gap-filler is here.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Then he should brought in, please.
9 I think the witness didn't expect ever to be called "gap-filler,"
10 but that happens.
11 [The witness takes the stand]
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please sit down.
13 Good morning, Mr. Blaszczyk. I'm not sure if I -- if that is the
14 right pronunciation. Welcome back again in this trial. May I remind you
15 again that the affirmation you made at the beginning of your examination
16 still applies.
17 THE WITNESS: I understand. Good morning, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning.
19 Mr. Tolimir, we are in the middle of the cross-examination. We
20 started with that in April. Please examine the witness.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
22 WITNESS: TOMASZ BLASZCZYK [Resumed]
23 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir: [Continued]
24 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Blaszczyk.
25 A. Good morning.
1 Q. I would like to complete this testimony in accordance with
2 God's will. Sir, quite some time has passed since we spoke to each
3 other. We were speaking on the last occasion about the Drina Corps,
4 about rotation, and I have a few questions that will take us to the heart
5 of the matter that we were concerned with last time.
6 First of all, let me ask you the following. When the collection
7 of the Drina Corps arrived in the hands of the Prosecution, according to
8 your statements and the documents that we have been provided with,
9 documents that have been shown here by the Prosecution, well, the place
10 of custody frequently changed. Did you investigate where the collection
11 of the Drina Corps that you have testified about was taken to, which
12 places it passed through? Thank you.
13 A. Yes. Since the Drina Corps collection arrived to The Hague, it
14 was stored in evidence unit and was kept entire time over there. If
15 anybody wanted to get particular document from the evidence unit, should
16 fill out the form and sign this form and leave this form in evidence
18 Q. Thank you. That concerns its custody here, but my question was
19 whether you launched a particular investigation into all the places to
20 which the Drina Corps collection of documents was taken until it arrived
21 in the hands of the Prosecution? Thank you.
22 A. According to our investigation, the Drina Corps collection was
23 first kept by VRS army, by the Drina Corps itself. It was collected --
24 documents from the Drina Corps collection were collected by Drina Corps
25 in Vlasenica; and then transferred to Bijeljina, stayed in Bijeljina
1 about one year. From Bijeljina again the entire collection was taken
2 back to Sokolac. And then from Sokolac, on the order of Colonel Andric,
3 was transferred to Mali Zvornik. And after that we got information that
4 collection is in Gornji Milanovac, in Serbia. And then collection was
5 handed over to the Joint Commission of RS MUP and RS MOD and taken to
6 Banja Luka. For one day -- for few days were kept at the premises of
7 RS MUP in Banja Luka, and on the 13th of December, 2004, was handed over
8 to our field office, ICTY field office in Banja Luka. And of course then
9 it was the process taking this collection through Zagreb to The Hague.
10 Q. Thank you. Do you know how it was taken from Mali Zvornik to
11 Milanovac? If you looked into the matter you could answer that question;
12 if not, it doesn't matter. Thank you.
13 A. According to our knowledge, the information we got from one of
14 the witnesses, Nebojsa Vukicevic, when he came at one stage to
15 Mali Zvornik to get more documents, the collection was not there. The
16 collection -- according to information he got on the spot, the collection
17 was taken away by member of the Army of Serbia and Montenegro. Whether
18 it was taken directly to Gornji Milanovac or to other places, we don't
20 Q. Thank you. I'm asking you about that because the collection is
21 not a small one, it can't be dealt with by just an individual, but that's
22 not that important.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have P134 on the
24 screen now. Thank you. Thank you.
25 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
1 Q. While we're waiting for the document to come up on the screen I
2 can say that we're waiting for photographs, photographs that have been
3 shown to you already in the course of your testimony. Here they are. We
4 can see that the documents are in bundles. They've been taken out of
5 this box. Did each of the bundles have a binder which included a list of
6 the relevant documents? Thank you. We can see some sort of a binder
7 here that looks like a divider -- that looks like a log-book, perhaps.
8 A. What is the question, sorry?
9 Q. My question was whether each bundle of documents - and we can see
10 the documents that have been taken out of the box - did each bundle
11 contain a list of the documents or was there just one notebook where the
12 list of documents -- a notebook such as the one we can see in the
13 photograph, the notebook looks like a log-book. Thank you.
14 A. I seen this collection first time in Zagreb. It was few days
15 after that the pictures were taken -- this picture was taken. And I
16 don't remember on the -- on a list of the documents, you know, in
17 particular binders. And as far as I know, looking at the collection
18 later stage even, I didn't find any list. I didn't remember -- I don't
19 remember any list.
20 Q. Thank you. Was it common practice to keep the documents of an
21 entire corps without having a list of the documents, and when you
22 subsequently examined the collection did you come across a list of any
23 kind, a list of any documents or at least a list for part of the
24 documents? Thank you.
25 A. I don't remember from top of my head whether there is any list,
1 but possible, possible there were few log-books where it -- where, for
2 example, dispatches of telegram were recorded. Of course they are -- but
3 from the top of my head I don't remember a list. And I didn't notice
4 such lists in what is exactly in this collection entirely, so this
5 collection, I didn't notice such list.
6 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me whether we can find a list of any
7 part of the documents from the Drina Corps in the electronic system that
8 we have? Thank you.
9 A. I believe entire collection is accessible for the Defence also in
10 the system, and including whatever is in -- also, if the analysis exist,
11 the list are also accessible for you, sir.
12 Q. Thank you, sir. Please answer my following question. Can this
13 be a full and authentic collection if we don't have these lists of
14 documents, and could you take documents from this collection before the
15 collection arrived in the hands of the Prosecution? Thank you.
16 A. I don't understand why this collection cannot be authenticated
17 without a list. You know, the list doesn't say as anything about
18 authentication about this collection.
19 Q. Thank you. Some of the documents were used, as has been said in
20 the course of your testimony, in the Radislav Krstic case. The trial
21 came to an end in 2001, in the -- the trial in the Krstic case. The
22 appeals phase was completed in 2004. All of these documents were found
23 when exactly? Could you please tell us? Thank you.
24 A. The entire collection was seized by the Joint Commission of
25 RS MUP and RS MOD on the 9th of December, 2004, and it was handed over to
1 ICTY in December 13, 2004, and came to The Hague, physically came to
2 The Hague, it was beginning of January 2005.
3 Q. Thank you for that answer. So the appeals phase in the Krstic
4 case was completed before this collection of documents was accessible to
5 the Prosecution? Is that correct or not? Thank you.
6 A. I don't remember when appeal was completed for the Krstic case.
7 Possible. I don't remember.
8 Q. Thank you. It's easy to check this in the Tribunal. Please have
9 a look at that and tell me whether I'm correct when I say that the case
10 was completed in 2004. I thought that you as an investigator looked into
11 that too. I would like to ask you the following now. Last time a
12 witness was here, a witness who saw this collection that you have called
13 "Atlantida." He said that he never gave it that title. Can you tell us
14 anything about this, the question -- the witness concerned is called
15 Danko Gojkovic. Thank you.
16 A. Yes, I know the answer of Danko Gojkovic, yes, confirming that
17 during my interview with him also, that he didn't give this name of this
18 binder, "Atlantida," to this part of the documents. And he never said --
19 and I think it's not -- Danko Gojkovic is not the man who created this
20 binder. It could be done by another person. We have some guessing, of
21 course, you know, who could create this binder, but the man who may
22 create this binder refused to be interviewed by us. We tried to
23 interview him, but he refused.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please show P469 in
1 e-court. Thank you. Can we please turn it around. Thank you.
2 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Now we can see that it says "Telegrams" in Latin alphabet, then
4 it's followed by the number 28/34. It was probably marked by someone who
5 classified it, it could be someone from the OTP, and your ERN number.
6 And then we can see in Cyrillic "Atlantida" or "Atlantis." When we
7 showed this to Danko Gojkovic he said he never wrote this, either the
8 word "Telegrams" or the title "Atlantida," and that this was the first
9 time that he ever saw that.
10 On the basis of the witness told us and what I just told you, can
11 you tell us how is it possible that this title may have come into being
12 once it was already archived and was not anymore in the possession of
13 Mr. Danko Gojkovic? Thank you.
14 A. As far as I remember Danko Gojkovic's testimony, he says that all
15 the telegrams that had been sent by him or received by him were handed
16 over to the command, the command of the Rogatica Brigade. I believe this
17 binder was created in Rogatica Brigade command. I think, because, as we
18 see, if you look at the following pages from the first page, there are
19 some logistical documents and also the name of the assistant commander
20 for the logistics of Rogatica Brigade. I think, I think, but I said I
21 couldn't check it because the guy refused to be interviewed by me, that
22 this binder could be created in the command of the Rogatica Brigade. And
23 it's possible that this "Telegrami," "28/34" and "Atlantida" name were
24 somewhere created on this level, let's say.
25 Q. Thank you. Were all documents classified in this way in the
1 Rogatica Brigade and also marked with secret names just like this one?
2 As Danko worked in the command of the Rogatica Brigade, it would be
3 normal for him to determine the titles for the documents which he wrote
4 and classified and which you designated as Danko's documents, or was it
5 someone else who wrote all this on the documents? Thank you.
6 A. Also from the testimony of Danko Gojkovic and his interview, I
7 remember that he didn't create any archive material, at least with this
8 type of material, and everything that had been produced by him or sent by
9 him or received by him had been sent to the command of Rogatica Brigade.
10 What happened there, I don't know.
11 Q. Thank you. Please answer the following question. Did Danko work
12 at the command of the Rogatica Brigade and where was his office located,
13 if you know? Thank you.
14 A. Danko is -- this is communication officer of the Rogatica
15 Brigade. His office was located, let's say, in the premises of the
16 Rogatica Brigade command, but not in the building where the real command
17 was located. This is the building next to the command, small building
18 about 50, 100 metres from the command itself. I know this place. I've
19 been there a few times, and this place has been described also by
20 Danko Gojkovic and by other witnesses.
21 Q. Thank you. Do you know, as an investigator, that if an organ or
22 a department produces documents that they would have to keep them in
23 their own records and not hand them over into the archives, because if
24 anything is coded, there is the possibility that some of the secret
25 information might leak out? Thank you.
1 A. This is possible, but difficult to say.
2 Q. Thank you. Do you know that a telegram or a code must not be
3 used to transfer contents which are dictated aloud in a room where
4 they're being typed out, precisely because of the possibility that the
5 room is being wire-tapped and that in this way the key for a specific
6 code might be found? Thank you.
7 A. It is possible in few cases, yeah.
8 Q. Do you conclude on the basis of that that Danko was also not
9 allowed to send anywhere the perforated tapes which he used or telegrams;
10 and as for texts, that he had to return them to the organs which
11 submitted them to him, that is to say, logistics department and so on and
12 so forth? Thank you.
13 A. And this is exactly what Danko did. You know, he handed over
14 these documents to his commander -- to his command.
15 Q. Thank you. But Danko could not hand over the documents to his
16 command when he was a member of the command. He would have to keep his
17 own documents. He could hand something over to the Drina Corps. Is it
18 perhaps that you are confusing his command with the Drina Corps command?
19 Thank you.
20 A. I am not confusing Danko. Danko, this is ordinary soldier. He
21 was the communication officer. He didn't take any particular role in the
22 command. He was attached to the command as a communication officer who
23 was ordinary soldier. It was not his role to keep any documents. He
24 followed the rule established by the commander and his assistants in the
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk. This is your opinion. But I'm asking
2 you if Danko says that he never saw a binder like this one with this
3 title - and this is what he stated here in front of this Trial Chamber in
4 this courtroom - could you tell us who could have produced this binder
5 and when could it have been produced if it was not produced at the time
6 when the documents were still in the possession of the cryptographer at
7 the Rogatica Brigade? Thank you.
8 A. According to Danko, who was the cryptographer in the Rogatica
9 Brigade, he handed over all the documents or the dispatches which he
10 received or has sent to the command and somebody in the command, I can
11 only assume who it could be, created this binder. And also the first
12 page, you're referring to this "Atlantida" page, whatever it's called,
13 has been created over there in the command position, not by Danko.
14 Q. Thank you. Do you know who it was who produced it? I also asked
15 you whether all the documents from the logistics organ, reconnaissance
16 organs, intelligence organs, and so on, had a code-name for the place of
17 their documents, just as this one has the code-name "Atlantida"? Thank
19 A. As I said, I only can suspect, you know, who did -- who created
20 this binder. You know, I thought that this was assistant commander for
21 the logistics because in the following pages, the first pages of this
22 "Atlantida" binder, we see documents with his handwriting, with his name
23 on it, and I believe with his signature also. As I said, I tried to get
24 information how this binder was created and he refused -- this man, he
25 refused to talk to us. He showed up for our interview, but he refused to
2 Q. Thank you. I will remind you that only the first three documents
3 were produced by the logistics organs. The rest contains telegrams which
4 were written by me and which you called "Atlantida." I wrote them while
5 I was at the Rogatica Brigade. I wanted to know whether the logistics
6 organ could keep the telegrams which were written by the security organ
7 and which were recorded by the cryptographers. Thank you.
8 A. Yes, the position of the guy who is mentioned the first pages of
9 this "Atlantida" binder was the assistant commander for the logistics of
10 the Rogatica Brigade, but he could perform of the command officer also
11 the duty as duty officer or office in charge in case if commander was
12 not -- not of his area of responsibility. I don't know, he may have had
13 access to these documents.
14 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell us whether he selected the
15 documents in the same manner as ICTY, that is to say, you the
16 investigators did, and then submitted it under these covers entitled
17 "Atlantida," because this does not contain other documents except those
18 that were tendered by the OTP, and does "Atlantida" contain any other
19 documents? Can you please tell that to the Trial Chamber. Thank you.
20 A. I can tell that this binder was seized by us in this shape. I
21 cannot say what the criterion the man used in creating this binder, I
22 don't know it. I can confirm only that definitely this is the shape how
23 this binder was seized or received by OTP. I seen this binder first
24 time, I remember very clear, in Zagreb field office, when I arrived to
25 Zagreb field office. When I opened the boxes I made the initial
2 Q. [Microphone not activated]
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Your microphone, please.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
7 Q. In order to finish with this, who wrote it or did not, and who
8 selected it or did not, can you please tell us the following. Was the
9 title "Atlantida" and the words "Telegrams 28/34" written in the
10 Prosecution's office? Thank you.
11 A. Definitely not. It was written at that time when we seized this
12 material -- I mean before that time, of course. Whether it was in
13 Rogatica command, whether it was in Drina Corps, I don't know.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please show document 125.
15 Thank you. Could we please show the Exhibit P125. Thank you.
16 [Microphone not activated]
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Microphone, please, Mr. Tolimir.
19 Now please repeat because your microphone was switched off.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
22 Q. This is a document which we saw last time. I will ask the
23 witness whether he can recognise this document. Thank you.
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. Can you please tell us why you, or a representative of the OTP,
1 it does not matter, decided that precisely this document would be
2 discussed during your testimony even though the entire collection of the
3 Drina Corps has more than 300.000 pages? Thank you.
4 A. The document is self-explanatory. It's talking about -- saying
5 about the important issues and this is why we selected this document.
6 Q. Thank you. Could you please answer another question now. How
7 come that this document is not in the "Atlantida" collection? How do you
8 explain that? Thank you.
9 A. Sorry, this document is not in the "Atlantida" collection? It is
10 in the "Atlantida" collection.
11 Q. Thank you. But when you testified previously you said that it
12 was found in Zvornik. Is that correct or not? Thank you.
13 A. Sorry, General, I am getting confused a little bit. Did I say
14 that this document was seized in Zvornik?
15 Q. Thank you. It doesn't matter. It is irrelevant. I can rephrase
16 the question so I wouldn't go on confusing you. Could this document have
17 been placed in the Drina Corps archives in Zvornik or in any other place
18 which you mentioned that the archives went through, from Vlasenica
19 through Bijeljina, Sokolac, Mali Zvornik, and Gornji Milanovac,
20 Banja Luka, and Zagreb. So could it happen that this document may have
21 been added to the archives in any of these locations because it's not
22 recorded in any of the log-books? Thank you.
23 A. I can exclude that this document was added to this collection in
24 Zagreb, Banja Luka, since the entire collection was in the possession of
25 the ICTY. I can exclude this possibility for sure, 100 per cent sure.
1 But of course, everything is possible that it was added somewhere later,
2 but I don't think so. I don't see any reason why it should be done in
3 this way. But physically it is possible because we had no control of
4 this documentation at that time.
5 Q. Thank you. Please tell me first of all whether this document has
6 a log number; and if so, what is this number?
7 A. You mean original log number? I don't see an original log number
8 here in this document. This is our ICTY number, it's ERN number over --
9 on it, and also signature and date of communication officer from
10 Rogatica Brigade.
11 Q. Thank you. During your testimony you interpreted some of the
12 registration numbers of documents, and, inter alia, you said that the
13 registration number itself could show whether a document was an urgent
14 one and the like, whether it was an order or something else. Can you
15 tell us, as this document does not contain any of these characteristics
16 in the heading, it doesn't say either "military secret" or "strictly
17 confidential" or anything, can you say whether it was registered in any
18 log-book of the Drina Corps, a brigade or corps, or any kind of log-book
19 whatsoever? Thank you.
20 A. I don't know.
21 Q. Thank you. Can we then conclude, on the basis of your answers
22 and on the basis of the facts, that it was never registered anywhere as
23 either a military secret or something strictly confidential even though
24 you say that it was encoded? We cannot even see that it was encoded as
25 there is no trace of the teletypist.
1 A. I don't think that we can conclude that, but this is possible
3 Q. [Microphone not activated]
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
5 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Thank you. Is it usual to note the date, the time, and the
7 marking whether a document is internal or public or confidential or
8 strictly confidential in the upper left-hand corner of the document?
9 Thank you.
10 A. It is usual. Yeah, you're right, this is usual. Usually the
11 documents have the number, the date, information about sensitivity of
12 this document, all this type of information, but this document has not.
13 But in fact we don't know. Maybe -- maybe this information was handed
14 over to communication officer orally or maybe it was another paper also,
15 the cover paper of this document. I don't know how he received this
16 paper. He couldn't explain it because he doesn't remember this
17 particular document, I mean the communication officer Danko Gojkovic. He
18 remembers only, you know, based of his signature and handwritings that he
19 sent these documents on the 13th July 1995 and at 1510 minutes -- hours.
20 Q. Thank you. As Danko cannot remember the contents or anything
21 and, as you say, he processed it, is it then logical that when something
22 is brought in to be encrypted to a place where only secret military
23 information is being typed, as this was wartime, and as this type of
24 document was not transmitted by fax or any other means that the enemy
25 could find out, would it be normal that such a document would be signed
1 by the person who was sending it so that the receiver would know that it
2 was sent by so and so and on behalf of whom it was being sent? Thank
4 A. Could be signed or could not, but if the communication officer
5 receiving these documents from the command or somebody who may pass this
6 type of documents to the communication office, it is logical also for him
7 that he's obligated to send this document as soon as possible. And of
8 course, there is no information about number of the document, log number,
9 or whether this is document strictly confidential or not. But it -- for
10 sure this information should be on the typed version of this document
11 which was sent by teleprinter. Unfortunately, we don't have teleprinter
12 version of this document, but as we see, as we got it from Danko Gojkovic
13 it had been sent.
14 Q. Thank you. As you just said, Danko does not remember the
15 contents of the document nor who gave it to him or when. He just
16 remembers that his signature, which we can see at the left-hand bottom
17 corner, is written on this page. But there is no signature of the
18 sending party. On the basis of all this, when there is no registration
19 number, it is not logged, it was not signed by the sending party, then
20 does a cryptographer express his doubt that he might be sending a
21 telegram that he should not send because it includes some activities that
22 should be carried out and which could cause major consequences? Thank
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, first of all, what was your
25 question? It was more a statement rather than a question. And the other
1 thing is I was very cautious to interrupt you because you were dealing
2 with this document, but we are running out of time. We must have our
3 break now. We are ten minutes later than expected. We must have our
4 first break now and resume ten minutes past 11.00, and then you could
5 think about rephrasing your last question.
6 --- Recess taken at 10.41 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 11.12 a.m.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. Tolimir. Please proceed.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Sir, I was asking you about the elements that demonstrate that
12 the document is authentic. You just mentioned the signature in the lower
13 left-hand corner, but I asked you whether there were any doubts with the
14 sender as to whether he was sending something for which he had received
15 no authorisation. Thank you. And I'll complete my question by saying:
16 Would it be logical for Danko to ask himself who had signed this document
17 since it hasn't been registered, it hadn't been stamped? There are no
18 elements that show that this document is an authentic one.
19 A. This depends who handed this document to Danko to send it out.
20 Q. Thank you. Can we here, in the court, assume that someone gave
21 it to him who had authority over Danko, so he had to send each and every
22 telegram, regardless on whose behalf or in whose name that telegram was?
23 A. I think so.
24 Q. Thank you. Could you then perhaps tell us who this person that
25 you have in mind is?
1 A. It could be somebody -- officer in charge from the command of the
2 Rogatica Brigade or who had authority over Danko.
3 Q. Do you know that an encryptor's superior is only the commander
4 because an encryptor works in an autonomous manner. There are only one
5 or two such individuals in a given command and they form an integral part
6 of that command? Are you aware of that fact? Thank you.
7 A. Of course the commander, he is the main officer in charge of
8 Danko, but it could be also another officer authorised by the commander.
9 Q. Thank you. I don't want to speculate. I just want to ask you
10 the following. Documents that are encrypted are considered to be the
11 most confidential ones; is that correct or not?
12 A. It's correct.
13 Q. Thank you. As an investigator and a professional policeman, are
14 you aware of the fact that each and every document that is being
15 encrypted leaves certain traces, traces such as those left by the
16 finger-prints of a person who has touched certain objects? Are you aware
17 of that fact?
18 A. Yes, I am aware.
19 Q. Thank you. I apologise to the interpreters. As an investigator
20 and a professional policeman, are you aware of the fact that when
21 investigating documents that are being encrypted and sent, there are
22 three ways in which a person checking such documents can verify whether
23 these documents are in fact authentic or not? Thank you.
24 Since you're not answering the question, I'll rephrase it. Do
25 you know that there are three elements that allow one to confirm the
1 authenticity of the contents of some document that has been sent through
2 a teleprinter?
3 A. What do you mean three elements? Could you specify it, please.
4 Q. Thank you. I can. Finger-prints for everyone are different, and
5 as a policeman you must be aware of the fact. And similarly, each and
6 every machine leaves behind its own individual traces. For example, if
7 you have a look at the document that we see on the left, if it has to be
8 transported to a tape with all the punctuation, with all its contents,
9 then the trace of the typewriter will be recorded on the teleprinter and
10 this will then have to be identical to the previous two documents that go
11 through the teleprinter. Are you aware of that? Thank you.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. The document that we can see here on the screen, it doesn't have
14 a signature or a stamp and so on and so forth, should this document have
15 also been accompanied by another two copies after it had gone through the
16 teleprinter? Thank you.
17 A. This document has been typed out on the teleprinter by
18 teleprinter operator, and of course, the person who received this
19 document printed out his own version of this document.
20 Q. If this is one version, the document we see now - and you claim
21 that it's the original - if the second version was typed out by the
22 teleprinter operator, then the marks or traces left by that machine must
23 be different from the marks left by this original document. And then
24 each teleprinter has a certain perforated tape or band that contains a
25 third set of traces left by the document. So in each case there are
1 three ways in which the authenticity of a document can be checked. Are
2 you aware of that? Thank you.
3 A. Sir, this document has been typed out on the tele -- of the
4 typewriter machine, not on the teleprinter.
5 Q. Thank you. Do you know where the teleprinter mark is left if it
6 is sent by teleprinter? Thank you.
7 A. No.
8 Q. Do you know where the markings of the teleprinter is located if
9 it's sent by teleprinter?
10 A. I am not sure whether I understood you correctly. I know how a
11 teleprinter looked and more or less, you know, how it operate, but I
12 never worked on it.
13 Q. Thank you for saying you didn't understand me. Have a look at
14 the document to the left. Danko receives it, the sender sends it to him
15 and he receives it; is that correct? Thank you.
16 When this document is typed out on a typewriter, does it arrive
17 in this form? Does it arrive in Danko hands through the teleprinter in
18 this form?
19 A. This document -- Danko received this document in this form as we
20 see here in -- looking at his signature and information when he sent
21 these documents out, but of course he typed out this document on the
22 teleprinter. It was definitely in different form, it should be different
23 form of this document. But unfortunately, we don't have this version of
24 this document typed out on teleprinter. We have only the version of the
25 document typed on telewriter -- or the typewriter. I'm sorry.
1 Q. Thank you. Does a teleprinter leave a copy that is identical to
2 this document that has to be sent to the receiver? So does the
3 teleprinter produce such a copy?
4 A. I believe, yes.
5 Q. Thank you. Apart from that identical copy, does the teleprinter
6 also leave behind a second tape with the imprint of these letters in
7 electronic form?
8 A. You are correct, yes.
9 Q. Thank you. Does each document that is being sent by the operator
10 have to have those three copies after the processing phase has been
11 completed by the operator? Thank you.
12 A. Yes, you're right. It should be three copies.
13 Q. And the copy that the operator receives for processing, does that
14 copy have to be sent back to be checked? Thank you.
15 A. I don't understand, should be sent back to be checked -- checked
16 by whom? Sorry.
17 Q. Thank you. Does the operator who receives a copy from the
18 sender, does he have to send back that paper to the sender? So as a
19 rule, does he have to send it back to the person from whom he received
20 the document? Thank you.
21 A. I believe that Danko Gojkovic through his testimony explained the
22 procedure regarding the documents, you know, who was supposed to be sent
23 by him by teleprinter. And he says that the documents, after sending out
24 by him, were handed over back to the command, but I don't remember
25 whether he mentioned any particular person or not. But he says that it
1 was the procedure.
2 Q. Thank you. Please tell me the following. Would Danko keep this
3 document typed on the machine as evidence that he had sent the telegram
4 or did he have evidence in the form of the copy that was created by the
5 device? As a policeman, if you are looking into ways in which a
6 teleprinter had been put to inappropriate use, what would you do?
7 A. You're asking about my reaction? What I would do with this
9 Q. I don't have to ask you personally, but what would a policeman,
10 any policeman, have to look for to determine that the contents of a
11 telegram received by a processor, to determine that the telegram had been
12 sent to the required address, to determine that someone hadn't
13 forgotten -- to determine that someone hadn't forgotten to send that
14 telegram. If you were, for example, investigating a criminal case, a
15 crime that had been committed, what would you do in such cases?
16 A. We are quite limited to investigate this particular issue because
17 we have access to this document, this one document. We have no access to
18 the teleprinter, we have no access to the tape from this particular
19 teleprinter. We have no access to the full archive of the -- of, I
20 believe, Drina Corps collection. We have no access to the log-book of
21 documents which were sent by communication officer from Rogatica Brigade
22 in this particular case. And I don't think that we may do much more, you
23 know, than we did in this document, just to find out how this document
24 was sent out. Except, of course, interviewing the person mentioned in
25 the document, that is Danko Gojkovic, and trying to find out the person
1 who could collect this documentation in one this particular binder.
2 Q. Thank you. Since you didn't want to answer the
3 question - perhaps you don't know the answer - what constitutes better
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
6 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, I'm just going to try to put a stop to
7 that. There's no need to characterise the witness's testimony and cast
8 aspersions on the witness. He's answered fully a number of very similar
9 questions about a topic which the Trial Chamber has already heard a
10 volume of testimony from the teleprinter operator himself, Mr. Gojkovic,
11 who Mr. Blaszczyk has told you a number of times he personally
12 interviewed. So if there's going to be further questioning along this
13 line, I think it's more respectful of the witness not to allege that he's
14 failing or trying not to answer the question when he clearly has over and
15 over again.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I realise as well you said: "Since
17 you didn't want to answer the question ..." I think that was not an
18 appropriate statement. This witness is here for a long time answering
19 all the questions to him. I don't see any sign that he is not willing to
20 answer the question. You should be careful by such a statement. Please
21 carry on, but try to use your time sufficiently.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
23 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, you are an investigator, that's why I'm putting
25 this question to you. Don't take it personally. You are an
1 investigator. But would a copy from a teleprinter constitute better
2 evidence or would a copy on a perforated track be better evidence if --
3 if the document had been typed on an ordinary machine? Thank you.
4 A. Of course it would be -- I don't know whether better, but it
5 would be additional evidence, you know, confirming this particular
6 dispatch. Whether this is better evidence or worse evidence is up to the
7 Trial Chamber to decide. But I would like to have a copy of this
8 teleprinter version of this document, also the tape, I would like
10 Q. Thank you. The Chamber shall decide as to what constitutes
11 better evidence, which copy constitutes better evidence. I won't ask you
12 anything else about that. Let's see what a different witness says about
13 this document. Danko said he couldn't remember. He said that he only
14 knew that his signature was in a lower left-hand corner, so let's see
15 what another witness has to say.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please show the witness
17 the following document: 1D116. It's the transcript from the Popovic
18 case. The transcript page is 15262, and in the e-court system the
19 relevant number is 32. I'll read out the relevant part of the
20 transcript. It's in English and my legal advisor has provided me with a
21 Serbian version.
22 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
23 Q. You can now see it in English on the screen. Let's just find the
24 page. While waiting for that, I'll start reading out the transcript.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I was told that there is no page 32
1 in e-court. Please check that again.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thanks. We'll check that
3 immediately on the basis of the copy that has been made. Thank you.
4 My legal advisor will check the page. This is the transcript
5 from the testimony that Colonel Savcic gave. You don't have his
6 signature on this document, but he's mentioned. When we see what he says
7 and compare it to what Danko said, I'll put a few questions to you --
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: First of all, we would like to have
9 the correct --
10 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
11 Q. -- so that we can finish discussing this document. Thank you.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We would like to have the correct part of the
13 transcript on the screen. Can you indicate again which is the page
14 number and the line number?
15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] The transcript page is 15262,
16 15262, and in the e-court system it is page 32.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: There is no page 32. On the screen we have
18 page 32776. Are you referring to that page?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Is it
20 sufficient to provide you with the transcript -- the page of the
21 transcript, 15262?
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
23 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, General Tolimir has quoted the
24 correct transcript page. If it helps, it's the 12th of September, 2007,
25 that's the date of the testimony of Mr. Savcic and his testimony on this
1 topic continues from 15262 through 15265.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
3 THE REGISTRAR: For the record, this is 65 ter 1D118, not 1D116.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Thank you, Mr. Thayer.
6 Thank you, and I apologise for the delay.
7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
8 Q. I'll now read out only part of the transcript, lines 7 to 14, for
9 example. The witness, Savcic, says the following:
10 "... my name is here, but not my signature [as interpreted].
11 I've already told you that I can't remember having drafted this document,
12 and there are several other reasons for which I still don't believe that
13 I drafted it. Above all, the title says: 'IKM Forward Command Post of
14 the 65th Protection Regiment,' et cetera, 'Borike, 1400 hours.' I did
15 not set up that forward command post. I just led part of the unit that
16 was there. There is no date," he probably means on the document. "This
17 document doesn't have the format of a telegram ..."
18 And then he continues to say in lines 16 and 17:
19 "... I cannot suggest something to the commander of the
20 Main Staff or to his deputy, because I'm not an assistant commander in a
21 position to make suggestions to him. I'm just a subordinate who executes
22 the orders he is given."
23 Then lines 19 to 24, he says:
24 "Furthermore, you see, after the first sentence, it says:
25 "'Assistant commander of the Main Staff of the VRS for
1 intelligence and security proposes the following measures.'
2 "So the assistant commander proposes, and I'm the one who writes
3 things down. If he is the one who makes proposals, why isn't he the one
4 who writes them?"
5 And then General Savcic says on page 15263 of the transcript,
6 lines 1 to 5:
7 "That's something that I know. So I cannot say with any
8 certainty that I drafted this, as dictated by Tolimir, but I also cannot
9 exclude this possibility with 100 per cent certainty. All I can say is
10 that this document was never received by the military police commander.
11 The military police commander never acted on it."
12 Thank you.
13 [Microphone not activated]
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the accused, please.
15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
16 Q. My question is as follows --
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know whether I should put
18 the question now or whether Mr. Thayer would like to take the floor.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please wait a moment.
20 Mr. Thayer.
21 MR. THAYER: Well, Mr. President, if General Tolimir wants to ask
22 a question at this point, I think in all fairness to the witness and
23 frankly to the record that he continue reading the transcript and give
24 the witness an opportunity to read the transcript through page 15264. It
25 will save time. I don't have to put it back up on re-direct and waste
1 more court time to place this in context. So I just ask that the witness
2 be given an opportunity to read 15263, and the Trial Chamber as well, and
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Microphone not activated]
5 Mr. Tolimir, do you agree with the proposal of Mr. Thayer?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm not familiar
7 with the contents. I said that my legal advisor only translated this
8 part of the transcript. Since from the beginning of the trial I never
9 received the transcript of any conferences or trials. I received
10 nothing, but I should. So I don't know English so I could only read out
11 what was translated for me. I have nothing against Mr. Thayer reading
12 this out because I'm in favour of all the arguments being presented that
13 can help us to determine the truth.
14 [Defence counsel confer]
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have nothing against any sort of
16 contents that would bring us to the truth. So I would kindly ask
17 Mr. Thayer to read it out and the interpreters to interpret it for me
18 because I do not have a translation. Thank you.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The witness could read the relevant part of the
20 transcript. I think it was page 15264.
21 Mr. Thayer, can you indicate again which portion you were
22 referring to.
23 MR. THAYER: You had it correct, Mr. President, 15264.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which lines?
25 MR. THAYER: It's really the whole page that places in context
1 the statement that General Tolimir read about Major Malinic.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I apologise, but I
3 haven't read out anything about Major Malinic. I read out what Savcic
4 stated at the court for the record. Thank you.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think now we are a little confused, and perhaps
6 we leave it for the cross-examination. It's perhaps more appropriate and
7 practical so that Mr. Tolimir should now put a question to the witness to
8 that portion he was quoting.
9 Mr. Tolimir.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
12 Q. My question for the witness is this: As for the arguments noted
13 by Milomir Savcic in the part of the transcript which I read out to you,
14 are they convincing enough to show that the document which you showed
15 here is inauthentic? Thank you.
16 A. Sorry, but who is convincing enough?
17 Q. Thank you. A little while ago you heard the contents of the
18 transcript which I read out, and this is what Savcic stated in the
19 Popovic case about this document. Was he convincing when he said that
20 the document is not authentic? It is a document that we are discussing
21 here. Thank you.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I think the witness is not here in
23 the courtroom to tell us if a document is authentic by reading a portion
24 of a testimony of another witness. It is up to the Chamber to decide if
25 something is authentic or not at the end of the day. Please carry on. I
1 would like to correct myself. I misspoke when I said "leave it for
2 cross-examination." I meant re-examination of course.
3 [Defence counsel confer]
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, if you remember, a part of the statement given by
7 Mr. Savcic, who was the prosecutor witness in the case Popovic et al., do
8 you remember that he said that he never set up a forward command post in
9 Borike? Thank you.
10 A. I read it out, you know, from transcript just a few seconds ago.
11 Q. Thank you. Do you have any other information about that? Was
12 maybe Savcic insincere in his testimony? Did the forward command post
13 perhaps exist? Thank you.
14 A. In Borike there exist forward command post of Rogatica Brigade
15 definitely, and we know that General Savcic, or Colonel Savcic at that
16 time, was present in Borike. And usually where the commander is present
17 in the AOR there is forward command post, the commander is in command of
18 entire of his unit. Whether this is officially called forward command
19 post of particular unit or using forward command post of other unit
20 co-operating with this particular unit, this is different question.
21 Q. Thank you. I'm asking you the following and please answer that.
22 Does General Savcic say in this transcript from the Popovic case the
24 The Forward Command Post of the 65th Regiment ... Borike,
25 1400 hours, is something I did not set up. I did not set up this forward
1 command post. Thank you.
2 A. Yes. As we see here, Colonel Savcic did say it in -- during his
3 testimony in Popovic case.
4 Q. Thank you. Did he also say that this document does not have the
5 format of a telegram? Thank you.
6 A. He says also this.
7 [Defence counsel confer]
8 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Thank you. This is my question: What is missing in this
10 document? We will see it on the screen once again - it is P125 - so you
11 can have a look at it and assess visually what is missing there in terms
12 of what Savcic is saying. Thank you. There, we can see it now and we
13 shall check the authenticity of a witness who is testifying in a trial
14 before this Tribunal. He says that the document does not have the format
15 of a telegram. Does it have the format of a telegram? Thank you.
16 A. He says what he says and this is document -- it has not the
17 format of a telegram, of course.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, could you please give us a reference
19 where you found this portion of the testimony of Mr. Gojkovic for the
20 sake of the record.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps you mean Mr. Savcic,
22 because I was reading out the testimony of Mr. Savcic. Thank you.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] These are lines 7 to 14 and then
25 lines 16 and 17. What I asked the witness about is in lines 13 and 14.
1 Thank you.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please carry on.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
5 Q. On the basis of what we read in Savcic's testimony and what we
6 can see here, was this document signed by General Savcic?
7 A. As we see here, this document is not signed by Colonel, later on
8 General, Savcic.
9 Q. Thank you. Does he claim in his testimony that the commander of
10 the military police never received this document? Thank you.
11 A. If we look at the transcript of his testimony, he says so also --
12 but I think he says also that he never discussed the contents of this
13 document or whatever, the order, you know, with the commander of the
14 military battalion of the 65th Protection Regiment. If I correctly
15 remember the transcript.
16 Q. Thank you. I will read it out and you can have a look at it.
17 These are pages 15263, lines 1 to 5. I'm only reading the last sentence
18 so I wouldn't read the entire transcript.
19 "The commander of the military police never received this
20 document and never acted in accordance with it."
21 This is my question: If the military police commander never
22 received this document, as his commander claims, and if he never acted in
23 accordance with the contents of the document, does that indicate that he
24 never, ever received this document? Thank you.
25 A. I think this is also not up to me to assess the statement and
1 document itself and testimony of the witnesses.
2 [Defence counsel confer]
3 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell us whether judging by the form
5 and the contents which we just saw - and can we please put it up on the
6 screen once again, it is 125 - so that you can have a look and I don't
7 have to read the transcript. Thank you. We can see it now.
8 So, should this document be part of the collection of the
9 protection regiment or of the Drina Corps? And did you find any other
10 documents from the protection regiment in the Drina Corps collection?
11 Thank you.
12 A. This document should be in both, in Drina Corps collection and
13 also in 65th Protection Regiment collection, if such exists, the Main
14 Staff collection. And ...
15 Q. Thank you. Did you ever see any document during your
16 investigation from the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment which was a
17 separate command unit of the Main Staff and which had its own log-book?
18 Thank you.
19 A. Yes, I remember seeing few documents from 65th Protection
20 Regiment also in Drina Corps collection, not only that one but I believe
21 there are more documents, but from the top of my head I cannot tell which
22 one now. But I remember reviewing this -- this collection here in
23 The Hague. I seen more documents from 65th Protection Regiment, but I
24 don't remember the contents of these documents. But I think this is
25 quite easy to check it.
1 Q. Thank you. In the trials Popovic et al. and in this trial, were
2 there any other documents which were tendered and which originate from
3 the 65th Protection Regiment? Are you aware of this as an investigator
4 who investigated the whole matter and who testified in this trial? Thank
6 A. I am aware. I don't know. Is the question rather not to me.
7 Q. Thank you. As a unit, as an organisational and formation unit,
8 was the 65th Protection Regiment as a command unit of the Main Staff an
9 integral part of the Drina Corps or not? Thank you.
10 A. No, the 65th Protection Regiment was the unit of the Main Staff
11 of VRS, but operated in the area of responsibility of Drina Corps.
12 Q. Thank you. So did the Main Staff. It was also active with all
13 the other units attached to the Main Staff. It was also active in the
14 zone of responsibility of the Drina Corps. Are you aware of that? Thank
16 A. Having units of the Main Staff in the area of responsibility of
17 Drina Corps, yes, yes.
18 Q. Thank you. By that logic, as they were located in the zone of
19 the Drina Corps, should then all the documents of these units be included
20 in the Drina Corps collection? Thank you.
21 A. I don't think so. It depends of what kind of document it should
22 be, whether they -- what kind of communication did -- whether they
23 communicate between themselves or not. They could send some documents to
24 Drina Corps. But whether entire correspondence should be sent to
25 Drina Corps, I don't think so.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please show the document
3 P233 on the right-hand side and keep the document that we have on the
4 screen now on the left-hand side. If this is not possible, can we please
5 just show the document P233 on the left side of the screen in B/C/S and
6 on the right-hand side in the English version. Thank you.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, your first request -- at your first
8 request we have these different documents now on the screen. Sometimes
9 it takes a little time. You should be patient. Continue.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Thank
12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Can you see these two documents, Mr. Blaszczyk, and my question
14 is: Were both of these documents tendered into evidence by the OTP
15 during your testimony? Thank you.
16 A. Yes, I believe, yes.
17 Q. Thank you. When they were tendered into evidence, was it
18 mentioned that the other document which we see on the right-hand side of
19 the screen was also found in the collection of the Drina Corps, which you
20 received in the manner that you described? Thank you.
21 A. I don't know, sir, from whom you have this information, but this
22 is not true. This is not document from the Drina Corps collection. I am
23 talking about documents from the right-hand side with ERN number
25 Q. Thank you. So you claim that this document was not tendered into
1 evidence as a document found as part of the Drina Corps collection, yes
2 or no? Thank you.
3 A. I know that this is document not from the Drina Corps collection.
4 Q. Thank you. Was it found there among the documents? Thank you.
5 A. I can explain about -- a little bit about this document that --
6 if Your Honour would like to hear it, of course.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, of course.
8 THE WITNESS: I remember receiving this document -- the copy of
9 this document - I think it was that one - yes, I think first I received
10 this document -- a copy of this document from the source -- our source on
11 the field from Bosnia and Herzegovina. And later on we managed to get
12 the original of this document from the member of the 10th Sabotage
13 Detachment, but definitely this document is not part of the Drina Corps
14 collection. But I know this document and I received this document from
15 this man.
16 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber if you received
18 it as a separate document or if you received it together with some other
19 documents from the 10th Sabotage Detachment. Did you receive only this
20 document or not? Thank you.
21 A. As far as I remember, I received more documents from
22 10th Sabotage Detachment, not many, but a little bit more.
23 Q. Thank you. Were they all entered into the database? Thank you.
24 A. Yes, for sure.
25 Q. Can you tell us who was the person who submitted this document
1 and the other documents that you mentioned to you? Thank you.
2 A. I believe the original document -- I met few members of the
3 10th Sabotage Detachment, but I think this document I received from
4 Dragan Todorovic.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please now show
6 Exhibit 1D214. Thank you. Thank you.
7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Please have a look at this document and on the basis of the
9 contents and the markings, please tell us whether there are any elements
10 on the basis of which its authenticity can be assessed. Thank you.
11 A. Yes, we have the stamp of the unit who I believe received these
12 documents through teleprinter, and this document was teleprinted from the
13 Main Staff but to which unit I don't see here.
14 Q. Thank you. Let me help you. It says: "To the Drina Corps
15 command," and that is a command in the command structure of units. Can
16 you see that? Thank you.
17 Please look at the sixth line of text from above. You see that
18 first is the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska and then the
19 third paragraph, "to the command of the Drina Corps." Can you see that?
20 A. Yes, I see that.
21 Q. Thank you. Did this document pass through your hands as an
22 investigator and as it has the ERN number?
23 A. Probably yes, but I don't remember this document. But I see --
24 but based on ERN number I see that this document from Drina Corps
25 collection. Probably I -- I seen this document in some stage.
1 Q. Thank you. Could we then say that this document has more
2 elements on the basis of which it authenticity could be established than
3 the one we had a look at previously and which was supposedly sent by the
4 commander of the protection regiment, General Milomir Savcic? Thank you.
5 A. The same, I can say that this document is printed out from
6 teleprinter, and as I said, just to put a void between these two
7 documents it's not up to me, it's rather up to Trial Chamber. But looks
8 for me this is -- this is original document for me. But, yeah, better to
9 have the original, of course, here, but it looks that original from some
10 markings here and also having the stamp of the person who received this
11 document, I believe.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please show the
14 document 73 in e-court.
15 [Defence counsel confer]
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is D73, marked for
17 identification. As for the document that we still see on the screen,
18 which the witness assessed as authentic, I would tender it into evidence.
19 Thank you.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If I recall correctly, it is P233, perhaps marked
21 for identification because we haven't finished the process.
22 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Correction, Mr. Tolimir, I was told by the
24 Registrar that it is not tendered yet and it will be received now.
25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D75.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please carry on.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]
3 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Can you please have a look at page 3 of this document and the
5 signature so that I could ask you questions which I have. Please also
6 take a look at the ERN number so that you could tell us which collection
7 it belongs to.
8 A. Yeah, looking at ERN number, this is Drina Corps collection
10 Q. Thank you. As it's a document from the Drina Corps collection,
11 can you please have a look at the first line which says below point A:
12 "Convoys, teams, and individuals ..." et cetera "in the
13 Drina Corps zone of responsibility ..."
14 Does that also indicate that this document relates to the
15 Drina Corps? Thank you.
16 A. Yes, somehow this is related to Drina Corps, at least to the
17 activities in Drina Corps area of responsibility.
18 Q. Thank you. Please have a look at the last page now, as it
19 contains the signature of the author of this document. Can you see in
20 the lower right-hand corner where it says: "Captain Slavko Novakovic."
21 The text is in Serbian and it is handwritten. Can you see the signature?
22 A. Yes, I see.
23 Q. Thank you. On the basis of this signature, would you say that
24 this is an authentic document or not? Thank you.
25 A. I have no reason not to believe that this document is authentic.
1 I believe that this is authentic document.
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to
4 tender this document into evidence as the witness has confirmed its
5 authenticity. Thank you.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think this is not a correct statement. The
7 witness said:
8 "I have no reason not to believe that this document is not
9 authentic. I believe that this is authentic document."
10 This is not a firm statement that it is in fact authentic. There
11 is a slight difference.
12 [Microphone not activated]
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have nothing against
14 that. It's for you to decide. I suggest it be admitted into evidence on
15 the basis of what the witness has said, I believe that it is authentic
16 because it was entered as part of the Drina Corps collection and he
17 himself said that this document was an integral part of that collection
18 of documents.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is that correct, Witness?
20 THE WITNESS: It's correct. It's correct, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The document will be received.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My following question --
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: One moment, please.
24 We would like to receive that document number.
25 THE REGISTRAR: This document, Exhibit D73, is now exhibit and
1 not marked for identification.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
3 Please carry on now.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Have I interpreted what you said correctly? You said that the
6 documents were in Vlasenica-Bijeljina-Sokolac-Mali Zvornik;
7 Mali Zvornik-Milanovac; Milanovac to the Republika Srpska MUP. Then they
8 went to Banja Luka. So this is the trajectory of the documents you
9 mentioned. Then they arrived in the Prosecution's office in Banja Luka
10 and then in the Prosecution's office in Zagreb, and later they arrived at
11 the Tribunal. Have I understood what you said correctly? Thank you.
12 A. Yes, but from Vlasenica to Bijeljina, from Bijeljina to Sokolac,
13 then Mali Zvornik, probably Milanovac in Serbia, and then return to RS,
14 first to Banja Luka, Zagreb, and The Hague.
15 Q. [Microphone not activated]
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the accused, please.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Your microphone, please.
18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
19 Q. When you entered these documents, you mentioned how they were
20 packed, unpacked, and so on and so forth. I don't want to waste any time
21 on that. On the basis of everything that we have seen in the course of
22 the previous testimony and on the basis of what we have found out now,
23 when these documents were being packed and unpacked in various places, in
24 Banja Luka and here at the Tribunal, when they were being put into new
25 boxes, was a record made of the way in which the documents were being
1 repacked and on the contents of the documents?
2 A. There is the record how the documents were repacked and not about
3 the contents of the documents because we had no time to look at entire
4 collection very carefully what is in. As I said, I made initial
5 assessment in Zagreb only what is in, and then after making few copies
6 and returning to The Hague we realised that this is Drina Corps
7 collection, the documents from Drina Corps subordinated unit and
8 Drina Corps itself.
9 Q. Thank you. That's what I thought. Thank you for that addition,
10 that information. But since these documents were repacked, would it be
11 correct to say that they were being packed again so that is it would be
12 easier to transport them or was it because only certain documents were
13 documents of interest and others were returned to their initial users?
14 Thank you.
15 A. No, it was repacked -- I mean, partially this is true that we
16 repacked these documents to -- easier to transport these documents to
17 The Hague -- to Zagreb and then to The Hague. But no documents were
18 returned to initial users, what you said here. Entire collection was
19 transported to The Hague.
20 Q. Thank you for answering my question. Please, would you now tell
21 me whether the person who packed the documents was from the investigation
22 team and did he need to have authorisation from someone in the Tribunal
23 to perform this work? Thank you.
24 A. But you mean situation on the 13th of December in Banja Luka when
25 we received this collection, is correct?
1 Q. Yes, I have Banja Luka in mind, Zagreb as well. So could those
2 who were involved in the transport do this of their own accord, or did
3 they have to receive someone's approval in order to repack the documents?
4 Thank you.
5 A. In both cases there were investigators, investigator on the field
6 office in Banja Luka at that time and me personally at the field -- ICTY
7 field office in Zagreb and also head of the office at that time in
8 Zagreb. And it was our decision, but of course our management in ICTY
9 was informed about the situation.
10 Q. Could you please tell us whether the texts that were drafted were
11 drafted here in the Tribunal or were they drafted by those who were
12 involved in the packing of the documents and in their transport to the
13 Tribunal, because in some cases documents have been redacted. So were
14 documents redacted --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, the question was:
16 Were the documents or texts redacted, not drafted.
17 THE WITNESS: But to which texts are you referring to?
18 [Defence counsel confer]
19 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
20 Q. I'm interested in whether any of the contents of the documents
21 that were brought here -- I'm interested in whether anything was redacted
22 in those documents and whether that was done in the Tribunal.
23 A. The documents itself, they are evidence. We never redacted
24 anything from the evidence, unless it is for some reason, protection
25 reasons, something can be redacted -- can be used in a redaction version
1 in the court. But the documents itself were never redacted -- are never
2 redacted here.
3 Q. Thank you. You don't know. That's sufficient for me.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, that's not correct. The answer of
5 the witness was not that he doesn't know.
6 Mr. Thayer.
7 MR. THAYER: And, Mr. President, just so we don't have to play a
8 guessing game, if General Tolimir has some reason to believe that
9 Drina Corps documents were redacted by the OTP in their original form,
10 then he should just put that to the witness so we don't have to, as I
11 said, play a guessing game. If he's got something in mind, if he has a
12 good-faith basis to put that question, then he should just put that to
13 the witness; if he doesn't, then he should move on.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you got the answer of the witness,
15 that the documents itself were never redacted. I think this is a very
16 clear answer. This is not "I don't know." And you should deal with the
17 request of Mr. Thayer. Have you any indication that there were documents
18 redacted by the Prosecution? That would be very interesting for the
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, I don't, Your Honour. Thank
21 you. I said that what the investigator said was sufficient for me;
22 that's why I asked him this question. You can check the transcript. I
23 said that what he said was sufficient for me. Thank you.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This was one sentence, and the other was: "Thank
25 you. You don't know." And that was not the correct quotation of the
1 answer of the witness. Please carry on now.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: What the witness [sic]
3 said could also be interpreted as: You are not aware of that. Thank
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with regard to the
6 transcript I'd like to say I didn't find a single redacted page. I
7 wanted to ask the witness about this and his answer is sufficient for me.
8 I apologise if I caused any confusion. I apologise to Mr. Thayer in that
9 case and also to the witness. Thank you.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think this is one of the occasions when we have
11 problems in interpretation, different ways of interpretation. We leave
12 it like this and please carry on.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'd like to thank
14 Mr. Blaszczyk for the answers he's provided to the questions put to him.
15 I'd like to thank Mr. Thayer as well. And I have no further questions
16 for this witness.
17 Mr. President, I would also like to thank all the interpreters.
18 I do apologise if I read out certain segments very rapidly. My legal
19 advisor warned me of that, but I thank you too and I think we fully
20 understand each other. Thank you.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This can happen to everybody in the courtroom.
22 Mr. Thayer, do you have re-examination; and if yes, would you
23 commence the re-examination after the break?
24 MR. THAYER: Certainly, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Then we have the second break now and we resume
1 five minutes before 1.00.
2 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
5 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Re-examination by Mr. Thayer:
7 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
8 A. Good afternoon.
9 Q. Sir, do you have any reason to believe that any of the documents
10 contained in the Drina Corps collection were fabricated, falsified, or
11 altered in any way?
12 A. No, I don't.
13 Q. You testified in the -- in your last appearance here that the
14 collection or the archive was not complete. Can you tell the
15 Trial Chamber what you meant by that.
16 A. If you look at the numbers of the few documents and if you look
17 at the order of the number, we see that a lot of documents are missing.
18 I can refer, for example, to the security and intelligence documents,
19 that a lot of documents are missing from the collection. Not only from
20 this collection, but also from other collection, collection of the
21 Main Staff, collection in Banja Luka, actually in the possession of
22 Ministry of Defence of RS, collection of East Bosnia Corps, a lot of
23 documents are missing. But if we are referring to the Drina Corps
24 collection, definitely there are lot of gaps between these documents and
25 the dates, these particular dates, before, during, and after the fall of
2 Q. And when you refer to the - and I'm just quoting from the
3 transcript - the order of the number such that you could see that a lot
4 of the documents were missing and you used the example of the security
5 and intelligence organ documents, what do you mean when you say the order
6 of the number?
7 A. I mean that each document or most of the documents has the
8 number, his own number, and sequence number, it should be -- the
9 following document should have the next document to the number indicating
10 the previous document. But we see that there are a lot of gaps between
11 the particular documents.
12 Q. Okay. And that number that you're talking about, do we sometimes
13 refer to that as the strictly confidential number?
14 A. Yes, especially if you are referring to operational orders or
15 security and intelligence documents.
16 Q. Now, General Tolimir also asked you some questions about
17 documents that you may have seen that were originating from the
18 65th Motorised Protection Regiment. First of all, who was the commander
19 of that regiment in July 1995, sir?
20 A. At that time it was Colonel Savcic, he was the commander of
21 65th Protection Regiment.
22 Q. The documents that you testified about seeing that originated
23 from that unit, can you tell the Trial Chamber did that come from --
24 well, I'll just ask you this: Can you tell the Trial Chamber anything
25 about the source of those documents that originated from the
1 65th Protection Regiment, search, RFA, or what? Were they from a
2 collection or can you just describe to the Trial Chamber what the source
3 of those documents was? How did we get them, if you can remember.
4 A. I believe in this Drina Corps collection we have few documents
5 from 65th Protection Regiment. I don't remember from the top of my head
6 which documents they are, but I remember seeing documents. I believe
7 that there were documents definitely from the 65th Protection Regiment,
8 but if any document -- it's possible that the documents were seized also
9 in various search operations done by ICTY previously in Bratunac,
10 Zvornik, and other locations.
11 Q. And those were of brigade headquarters or commands; is that
13 A. Yes. To the search operation in Zvornik and Bratunac, I'm
14 referring to the headquarters of the brigade -- of the brigades.
15 Q. To your knowledge, was there any such search of the
16 65th Protection Regiment?
17 A. I don't remember. I don't think so.
18 Q. Okay. Let's look at P -- I think it's 125, the 13 July proposal
19 from General Tolimir that we've spent a lot of time on today.
20 General Tolimir asked you a number of questions about your
21 conclusions as an investigator, and I just want to ask you a couple of
22 questions concerning the document that we have before us. Do you recall
23 what Danko Gojkovic had to say about the signature at the lower left-hand
24 corner of this document?
25 A. He confirmed that this is his signature.
1 Q. And with the Usher's assistance I just hand up to you the
2 original of this document.
3 Sir, can you tell the Trial Chamber, is that an original
4 signature or is that a photocopy of the signature identified by
5 Mr. Gojkovic?
6 A. This is original signature.
7 Q. And you testified about some of the limitations that you faced as
8 an investigator in terms of trying to authenticate or investigate certain
9 documents, this one included. I don't think there's any dispute that one
10 of the steps the OTP took was to interview Mr. Gojkovic and you're
11 familiar with that interview; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, it's correct.
13 Q. Are you familiar with his testimony before this Trial Chamber?
14 A. I followed in some extent his testimony here, but not entire one.
15 Q. Okay. Well, I just want to ask you a couple of quick questions
16 and see if that -- if you can tell the Trial Chamber whether it affects
17 your conclusion as an investigator about the authenticity of this
19 At transcript page 2817 in this trial Mr. Gojkovic identified
20 that signature, that original signature, as his own. And at page 2818 of
21 his testimony before this Trial Chamber, he testified that the fact that
22 he signed and wrote "delivered" on that document indicates that he
23 actually typed it into a teleprinter and sent it. Were you aware that he
24 testified to that effect, Mr. Blaszczyk?
25 A. Yes, I know it.
1 Q. And on page 2824 of the trial transcript he said - I think this
2 is on cross-examination by General Tolimir - that that document that you
3 have in your hands, P125, and I'll quote:
4 "This is for me a confirmation from the other side, from my
5 fellow teleprinter operator on the other side, who confirmed that it was
6 well received."
7 General Tolimir asked him again at page 2825:
8 "Is the document of confirmation also one that was written by the
9 typewriter or something else?"
10 And Mr. Gojkovic answered:
11 "Confirmation for me is the time written on the document ..."
12 And here we see that that's 1510 hours. Is that correct?
13 A. Yes, I remember this part of his testimony.
14 Q. Okay. Now, I think we all know and we're -- we can all agree
15 that we don't have the teleprinter that was being used in the
16 Rogatica Brigade, so we have this typewritten version that Mr. Gojkovic
17 testified about receiving and then retyping into the teleprinter that we
18 don't have.
19 Now, General Tolimir asked you all kinds of question about how a
20 teleprinter works and what kind of traces it would leave, but for you as
21 an investigator, sir, can you tell the Trial Chamber how having the
22 actual teleprinter operator who confirmed that he sent this document and
23 identified his own original signature on it, how that affects your
24 conclusion about its authenticity.
25 A. Of course after interviewing Danko Gojkovic and after hearing his
1 testimony here in the court, my conclusion is that this is original
3 Q. And just so that there's no question on the record, how does it
4 affect your conclusion about the authenticity of this document?
5 A. I would say that after hearing the testimony of Mr. Gojkovic and
6 having interviewed him, I can only repeat that for me this is original
8 Q. And in your mind as an investigator, based on your investigation,
9 is there any doubt that Mr. Gojkovic did what he said he did, which was
10 receive this in typed form that we have here, sent it out on a
11 teleprinter, and received confirmation from the teleprinter operator on
12 the other end. Do you have any doubt as an investigator that that's what
14 A. I have not. I believe what Mr. Gojkovic said.
15 Q. Now, let's look at this document and its particulars. I want to
16 look at some of the elements of P125. And if we look at the top line, it
17 says: "Forward command post, 65th Motorised Protection Regiment, Borike
18 at 1400 hours."
19 Now, General Tolimir quoted to you from then Colonel Savcic, now
20 General Savcic's, testimony, where he said that: "I didn't set up that
22 Do you recall that, General Tolimir reading that testimony to
23 you, that General Savcic testified that he didn't set up that forward
24 command post?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. Are you aware of what General Savcic has stated in his OTP
2 interview and testified in Popovic about whether he was, in fact, at the
3 forward command post in Borike on this day at this time, 1400 hours on
4 the 13th of July?
5 A. I don't remember his entire testimony, statement, but he confirms
6 that he was in Borike in this period.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. General Savcic couldn't
9 have been at a command place that he hadn't established. Please, one
10 should specify which command post. It's not a command -- it was not the
11 command post of the protection regiment and that's being discussed. So
12 what does the Prosecution have in mind, in fact. Could he please clarify
13 that. Whose command post was he at? Thank you.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, could you help Mr. Tolimir?
15 MR. THAYER: Certainly, Mr. President.
16 The -- this might be a little tedious, but I'll take us step by
17 step. Okay.
18 Q. Sir, you stated that you weren't entirely familiar with
19 General Savcic's OTP statement and testimony, so I'll just take you to a
20 couple sections here. He first says at transcript page 15246, line 7:
21 "There were two bases. They were the Borike and Rogatica sectors
22 where these tasks were performed ..."
23 And he says later on at line 13:
24 "I was in the sector of the Sjeversko village towards Boksanica,
25 this is where I was at the forward command post of the brigade ..."
1 Now, are you aware of a forward command post in the village of
2 Sjeversko, sir?
3 A. Yes, I am, sir. It was called also from time to time Borike
4 forward command post. But this place is located approximately
5 4 kilometres on the road from Borike. The village is called Sjeversko.
6 In fact, Borike is visible from the place where forward command post was
7 located, it was located at the school in Sjeversko.
8 Q. And if we go to the next page, transcript page 15247, at line 4
9 we see that Colonel Savcic confirms that he was situated in Borike in
10 July of 1995 and that he would sleep at Borike, and that General Tolimir
11 arrived at the Borike sector. And if we look at transcript page 15249,
12 line 10 and 9, we see Colonel Savcic again confirming that he was in the
13 sector of Sjeversko village and then he says:
14 "Borike is a more general and better-known term that we normally
15 use, but to be more precise, I was in the vicinity of the village of
17 Okay. So are you familiar with the forward command post in the
18 Sjeversko village that Colonel Savcic here refers to as Borike?
19 A. Yes, I am.
20 Q. Have you been there?
21 A. Yes, I've been there a few times even.
22 Q. Okay.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, I'm not sure if there was -- if you
24 misspoke by quoting in lines 18 to 20 Borike is a more general and better
25 known term ..." and then you referred -- "... to be more precise to the
1 vicinity of the village of," again, "Borike." Perhaps you misspoke.
2 MR. THAYER: Indeed I did, Mr. President. He was referring to
3 the village of Sjeversko in the first instance and I'll just get that
4 cite back.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I have the impression that the witness understood
6 you correctly and he was -- he answered your question by stating that he
7 was in Sjeversko.
8 MR. THAYER: Actually, to be more precise, I didn't misquote the
9 transcript. Let me just read the paragraph from the beginning and that
10 will -- we can all go back and look at it later. But it's page 15249,
11 line 9, Colonel Savcic, I think we'll all agree, is talking about
12 Major Malinic who is in Nova Kasaba at the time. And in a couple moments
13 I'm going to ask some questions about that, but just to give you the
15 "A. He was in Nova Kasaba, and I was in the sector of Sjeversko
16 village. Borike is a more general and better-known term that we normally
17 use, but to be more precise, I was in the vicinity of the village of
19 Q. So, sir, you've -- again you've been to this forward command post
20 that's in the Sjeversko village; is that correct?
21 A. Yes, it is correct.
22 Q. Okay. And you've told the Court that it is very close to Borike
23 and we have Savcic noting that they're basically interchangeable terms.
24 Now, let's look at the first line of this proposal from General Tolimir.
25 It says:
1 "There are over a thousand members of the former 28th Division of
2 the so-called BiH army captured in the area of Dusanovo (Kasaba).
3 Prisoners were under control of the military police" --
4 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I think you can wait until
6 Mr. Thayer has finished. Then you will get the floor.
7 MR. THAYER: "... prisoners are under control of the military
8 police battalion of the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment ..."
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, what is your concern?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]
11 [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. Thayer told us to look at the
12 first line of General Tolimir. Did he mean General Savcic because this
13 information was not given by Tolimir. So can we please correct the
14 record so that we have in the transcript the name of the person who
15 provided the information rather than my name. Thank you.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
17 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, this document is clear in its
18 reference to the proposal originating from the assistant commander for
19 security and intelligence affairs of the VRS Main Staff. That is
20 General Tolimir, unless he is going to dispute that fact in this trial.
21 That is what I am referring to here as the proposal that's explicitly
22 referred to as coming from General Tolimir.
23 Q. Now, General Tolimir asked you some questions --
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can it please be
1 established, what is this based on, that the first sentence comes from
2 Tolimir? Where is any relation with Tolimir here? Is Tolimir the one
3 who is providing this information here or is it someone else? Thank you.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
5 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I'm going to continue with my line of
6 questioning if it's all the same to the Court and not waste time with
7 what we can all see with our own eyes. Now --
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: At the moment, to avoid any conflict, we are
9 looking at a document signed by commander Lieutenant-Colonel
10 Milomir Savcic. This is out of any dispute, I think.
11 MR. THAYER: That is certainly not in dispute, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And now you are trying to get some more
13 information from the witness about the background of this document.
14 MR. THAYER: Yes.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please carry on.
16 MR. THAYER: And I'm focusing everyone's attention on the first
17 paragraph that refers specifically to General Tolimir's proposal. This
18 is where it says the:
19 "Assistant commander for security and intelligence affairs of the
20 VRS Main Staff proposes the following measures ..."
21 And again, I don't think General Tolimir is disputing the fact
22 that that is him. He held that position in the VRS for the entirety of
23 the war and did so in July of 1995.
24 Q. Now, General Tolimir asked you some questions and read you
25 some --
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir again.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I do not refute any of
3 the functions that I performed in my life. I'm proud of every one of
4 them. But please, you cannot extract any contents from this document
5 where someone is saying something about General Tolimir. Someone else is
6 providing this information about Kasaba, not Tolimir. Please take this
7 into account and please let us have Mr. Thayer correct this for the
8 transcript because the document says something quite different. You
9 cannot take the second paragraph as the starting point of the document.
10 Thank you.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I think it is very clear on the
12 transcript that Mr. Thayer is referring to a specific position and you
13 are not disputing that you hold this position at the relevant time, and
14 everything else will be developed now by Mr. Thayer.
15 Please carry on.
16 MR. THAYER:
17 Q. Now, the information that's reported here in the first line, that
18 there are over 1.000 members of the former 28th Division of the so-called
19 BiH army captured in the area of Kasaba, are you aware from your
20 investigations, sir, of any information that, first of all, corroborates
21 this information in this proposal, that there were a thousand members --
22 over a thousand members of the Armija in Kasaba?
23 A. Yes, this is corroborating information we received during our
24 investigation from various witnesses, Serbs, Bosniaks, and also Dutch
25 Battalion members, that in Nova Kasaba soccer field there were kept about
1 1.000 prisoners of VRS -- I mean Muslim prisoners captured by VRS.
2 Q. And the Trial Chamber has heard some of that testimony already
3 and it's before the Trial Chamber in other forms as well. Are you
4 familiar with any intercepts that were taken during this period of time
5 that also confirm the information that's contained in this document, in
6 this proposal from General Tolimir?
7 A. I mentioned only witnesses, but also --
8 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think before you raise your objection.
10 Mr. Thayer, you should be a little bit more careful by phrasing
11 your questions. This is a document. You can draw from the document some
12 conclusions, but you should not mention his name in this respect because
13 it is not authenticated by Mr. Tolimir himself. Please, it's only a
14 question of rephrasing your words. Please carry on.
15 MR. THAYER: Very well, Mr. President.
16 Q. Sir, you --
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: One moment.
18 Mr. Tolimir.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I object to this question because
20 the Prosecutor intends to lead the witness into saying --
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir --
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is a leading question.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I've expressed my concern about the
24 way this last question was put to the witness. I think leave now
25 Mr. Thayer conducting his re-examination.
1 MR. THAYER:
2 Q. Sir, are you familiar with --
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But please, do not record in the
4 transcript that I said this because I have not signed this document and I
5 have not provided it. So please, if this could be corrected in the
6 transcript. Thank you.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, Mr. Tolimir. The transcript reflects what is
8 happening in court and we have had now the transcript what Mr. Thayer
9 said, your objection, my concern, everything is on the transcript and is
10 very transparent for everybody. There is no way to correct that.
11 Please carry on, Mr. Thayer.
12 MR. THAYER:
13 Q. Sir, are you aware that there were intercepts that were taken at
14 about this time concerning the events that are described here in this
15 first paragraph?
16 A. Yes, I am, I am. I remember. I referred only to the witness
17 statements and witness testimony, but I am aware also about intercepts.
18 Q. Okay.
19 MR. THAYER: Let's look at P410A and P410B, please. Actually, we
20 can just make do with 410A. We don't need both. 410A will be the
21 handwritten notebook version of this intercept.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. This
24 question does not follow from the cross-examination. Thank you.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
1 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, this question follows directly from
2 General Tolimir's cross-examination of Mr. Blaszczyk. He has put the
3 authenticity of this document squarely at issue. He has raised questions
4 about Danko Gojkovic's credibility. He has quoted extensively from
5 General Savcic's testimony. This goes directly to the issue of the
6 authenticity of this document.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is, in my view, sufficient. Please carry
9 Mr. Tolimir, I think all your responses and objections are
10 followed. Please, what is your objection now?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My objection is that this is not a
12 discussion with Mr. Tolimir which is shown now. These are other
13 participants, so someone who has nothing to do with this document cannot
14 discuss about the authenticity of this document. I do not think that
15 Mr. Blaszczyk even knows who are the participants in this particular
16 conversation. Thank you.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We can judge that after having heard the answer
18 of the witness.
19 Please carry on, Mr. Thayer.
20 MR. THAYER:
21 Q. We can see here, Mr. Blaszczyk, that in the second line there's a
22 reference to:
23 "I have over a thousand."
24 And further down the participant specifies that:
25 "They are down here at the soccer field."
1 And again, based on your investigation of this case in the Kasaba
2 area, was there a particular location where a large group of Muslim
3 prisoners were being held by the VRS?
4 A. It was the only place that this soccer field of -- this is soccer
5 field in Nova Kasaba, the only place in this area.
6 Q. And then we see a reference to a "Rade, Zoka, and others have
7 just arrived."
8 During the course of your investigation, sir, are you aware of
9 anybody in particular whose nickname is Zoka?
10 A. I don't remember. I know a few names with these names -- people
11 with these names, but I don't know to whom it's -- the person who is
12 talking he's referring to.
13 Q. Okay. Let's look at P411A -- oh, by the way, before we dispense
14 with this document can you note what the time is of this intercept, sir?
15 A. It is written here 1400 hours.
16 Q. Okay.
17 MR. THAYER: Now, may we have P411A, please.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]
20 [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. There is no date or
21 place noted here. Could Mr. Thayer ask the witness about this, if the
22 witness perhaps knows that. Thank you.
23 MR. THAYER: Well, Mr. President, I can certainly refer everybody
24 to 410B which is the print-out which will show the date clearly, but I
25 don't think we need to waste further court time. I'll just note for the
1 record that 410B is the print-out version which will bear the date of the
2 conversation. If there are any further questions we can return to that
3 later. But if I may continue in the time we have left.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have this document admitted.
5 MR. THAYER:
6 Q. Now we have here an intercept time of 1405 hours, sir. Do you
7 see a reference in the middle of the intercept that starts with:
8 "Bro, don't take anyone." And this is after there's a reference
9 to the soccer field. Do you see that?
10 A. Yes, I see.
11 Q. And what does he say after that?
12 A. "I will send you an urgent telegram now, don't take anyone. I'll
13 send you the telegram now and explain it to you.
14 "Go ahead.
15 "Secure it well and you will get it now in telegram.
18 "I will do nothing before that.
20 Q. And again, 1411B [sic] will be the print-out version of this.
21 And I can represent for the Court that that date is 13 July 1995 for both
22 of these intercepts.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Would you please, for the record, repeat the
25 MR. THAYER: 411B, bravo, for the print-out.
1 Now, sir, 65 ter 765, please, if we might. This is a new
2 document that does not have a P number.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. How can
5 this be evidence, something that resulted later on from a document? It
6 says that at 1400 it was received when it was typed out, and it says that
7 it was sent at 1400 hours. What does that have to do with this document
8 and what does that have to do with Tolimir? Can that please be shown.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
10 MR. THAYER: If I may continue, Mr. President. I think that's a
11 matter for submissions that we'll gladly make any time, but I think the
12 timing of these intercepts and the time that's listed on P125 speak for
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, to clarify the situation, you are not
15 under time pressure. Therefore, we can continue with this witness
16 tomorrow for your re-examination.
17 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And I can understand that Mr. Tolimir's very
19 interested in some questions he is raising.
20 But, Mr. Tolimir, we have no problem with these documents. They
21 are already admitted. They are in evidence. We have the documents
22 already and everybody can look at it, the time, the date, and everything,
23 and the content. So there's no reason for your concern in this respect.
24 Mr. Thayer, please carry on.
25 MR. THAYER:
1 Q. Sir, we have another intercept here. The time indicated is
2 1602 hours, and again I can represent that this is on the 13th of July,
3 1995. You see the reference to Kasaba in the first line. Do you see
4 that, sir?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. "I've got an extension down in Kasaba."
7 And then he follows up and says:
8 "Where Malinic's unit is."
9 And again, sir, who is Malinic?
10 A. Malinic is Zoran Malinic. They called him Zoka also. It could
11 be Zoka. He is the commander of the military battalion of the
12 65th Motorised Protection Regiment.
13 Q. And who is Mr. Malinic's direct superior, sir?
14 A. His direct superior is Colonel Milomir Savcic, at that time
15 Lieutenant-Colonel Milomir Savcic.
17 July of 1995 or at this time when this intercept was taken, sir?
18 A. Malinic's unit -- Major Malinic's unit was located at that time
19 in Nova Kasaba, in the school located in Nova Kasaba, just a few hundred
20 metres from soccer field in Nova Kasaba.
21 Q. And then we can see that the reference is to 1500 gathered at the
22 stadium in Kasaba. Do you see that, sir?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. And having had an opportunity to review these three intercepts
25 again today, how does that correspond, first, with what you've learned
1 through the course of your investigation from, as you said, survivors,
2 Serb soldiers, and others; and number two, how does that correspond with
3 what we're seeing here in this document?
4 A. In fact, this confirms what we learned during our investigation,
5 the documents, intercepts, and also the witness statements.
6 Q. And so as an investigator, sir, who's worked on this case for a
7 long time, how accurate would you say, based on your investigation, this
8 first line here is about the thousand members of the Muslim army being
9 captured at Kasaba?
10 A. I am sure that this is correct information. We know that many
11 people, more than 1.000 people were kept at Nova Kasaba soccer field and
12 were captured along the road Konjevic Polje-Milici and then put on the
13 location of Nova Kasaba soccer field.
14 Q. Now, sir, were you or did you become aware during the course of
15 your investigation of a conversation over the radio telephone between
16 Colonel Savcic and Major Malinic on the 13th of July about these over a
17 thousand prisoners at Kasaba?
18 A. I think there was such conversation, but I don't remember it.
19 Q. Okay. Well, at the transcript page 15255 of the Popovic trial,
20 General Savcic testified about a conversation that he had with
21 Major Malinic about those prisoners and how they should be treated. Were
22 you aware of that testimony, sir? Does that help you refresh your
23 recollection at all?
24 A. Yes, yes, yes, Colonel Savcic testified that he had conversations
25 with Malinic.
1 Q. And if we look at transcript page 15256, do you recall what, if
2 anything, General Savcic said - before that's broadcast - about where
3 General Savcic was during the conversation and where General Tolimir was
4 during that conversation?
5 A. I have no transcript.
6 Q. Well, my first question is: Do you have any recollection of that
7 testimony? And if you don't, then I can show you that transcript.
8 A. Very roughly. I don't to the full extent.
9 Q. Okay. Well, let's look at transcript page 15256 of
10 General Savcic's testimony. He previously began discussing this
11 conversation he had with Major Malinic on the 13th of July, and he is
12 asked the question, I think by Mr. Vanderpuye at the time, and I quote:
13 "And during your conversation with Mr. Malinic on the 13th, while
14 you were in Borike, do you know where General Tolimir was?"
15 And General Savcic's answer was at line 4:
16 "I think -- in fact, I know he was somewhere there. He might
17 even have been standing next to me. I can't remember."
18 And the follow-up question is:
19 "And do you know whether or not he was aware of the situation
20 that Major Malinic was relating to you on the telephone at the time?"
21 Savcic's answer is:
22 "He knew. He was aware of that, if only from the conversation I
23 had with Malinic. But whether he also had communications with other
24 people in that broader area, I couldn't tell you.
25 "As for the events in Nova Kasaba, he knew about that. He was
1 around, standing next to me. But I don't know about any other
2 communications he might have had."
3 Who is the "he" to whom General Savcic is referring here when he
4 says "he was standing next to me" and he knew about this conversation
5 between General Savcic and Major Malinic?
6 A. He is referring to General Tolimir.
7 MR. THAYER: I see we're out of time, Mr. President, and I do
8 have just a couple of additional questions for tomorrow. We - I can tell
9 the Court - also have some video we're prepared to play. We won't fill
10 the entire day, I'm afraid. We did our best to fill the day for the week
11 and then we lost the witnesses, as you know, and some of the cross got
12 shortened considerably. So that's the projection for tomorrow.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think taking into account that we are just
14 before the summer recess, it is always very difficult to schedule the
15 right witnesses to fill all court time. There's no concern about that.
16 We will see what you will provide us for tomorrow, and we -- at the end
17 of this witness's testimony we should deal with some exhibits and exhibit
18 numbers which have been marked for identification a long time ago.
19 MR. THAYER: Yes, old habits die hard. I'm sorry, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
21 Witness, again you are -- have to be here tomorrow morning at
22 9.00, I think in Courtroom III as well, and please be reminded no contact
23 about the content of your testimony with any party.
24 THE WITNESS: Of course, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
1 We adjourn and resume tomorrow in the morning at 9.00.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,
3 to be reconvened on Friday, the 9th day of
4 July, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.