1 Friday, 9 July 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning to everybody in the courtroom.
6 The witness should be brought in.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning. Please sit down.
9 I would like to remind you that the affirmation to tell the truth
10 still applies, and Mr. Thayer has some more for questions for you.
11 Mr. Thayer, please.
12 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning to you and
13 Your Honours. Good morning, General Tolimir, Mr. Gajic. Good morning,
15 WITNESS: TOMASZ BLASZCZYK [Resumed]
16 Re-examination by Mr. Thayer: [Continued]
17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Blaszczyk.
18 A. Good morning, sir.
19 Q. I want to pick up where we left off yesterday and that was
20 concerning a radio telephone conversation between Colonel Savcic and
21 Major Malinic on the 13th of July, 1995, which Colonel Savcic testified
22 about in the Popovic case and during which he recalled that
23 General Tolimir was standing right next to Colonel Savcic during that
24 conversation. You recall that just yesterday when we left off,
25 Mr. Blaszczyk?
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. THAYER: May we have 1D118 on e-court, please. That's
3 Colonel Savcic's testimony in the Popovic case. And if we could go to
4 page 22, please.
5 Q. Okay. As we can see at transcript page 15252 in the Popovic case
6 and then again, just for the record, a couple of pages later at 15254,
7 line 19, Colonel Savcic testified that the conversation we were speaking
8 about yesterday was actually the second conversation which he had with
9 Major Malinic that day, 13 July. And in the first conversation - and
10 again for the record this is at transcript 15249 of the Popovic
11 testimony - in that first conversation sometime in the early morning
12 hours Colonel Savcic testified that Major Malinic described only three
13 Muslims surrendering; but by the second conversation, the one he said
14 General Tolimir was present for, Major Malinic told Colonel Savcic that
15 the situation had become much more complex and that there were so many
16 Muslims surrendering that he didn't have enough soldiers to guard them.
17 Do you recall the gist of that testimony by Colonel Savcic in the
18 Popovic case, sir?
19 A. Yes, I do now.
20 Q. And just remind us again, what was Major Malinic's position in
21 July 1995?
22 A. Major Malinic was the commander of the military battalion of the
23 65th Motorised Protection Regiment.
24 MR. THAYER: And if we could go to page 26 in e-court, please;
25 this is page 15256 in the transcript in Popovic.
1 Q. And when you say "military battalion of the 65th Motorised
2 Protection Regiment," do you mean to say the military police battalion,
4 A. Yes, correct. It's military police battalion.
5 Q. Now, when we look at page 26 here in e-court we can see that
6 Colonel Savcic is testifying about this change in situation by the
7 increase of the prisoners and that it was this changed circumstance that
8 General Tolimir was present for during the discussion. This was the
9 nature of the discussion that General Tolimir was present for.
10 Now, yesterday at transcript page 3698 at line 9, General Tolimir
11 quoted the following to you from Colonel Savcic's Popovic testimony. And
12 he quoted from page 15263.
13 MR. THAYER: And if we could go to page 33 in e-court, we'll just
14 pop that up again.
15 Q. He quoted a lengthy passage and then -- and this is all referring
16 to P125, the document that we've been spending so much time on. And I'll
17 just refer to that as the Borike memo, the memo that Danko Gojkovic
18 testified about that refers to the thousand prisoners at Kasaba.
19 And we see here at line 3 - and this is the last line that
20 General Tolimir quoted to you yesterday - he quoted General Savcic here.
21 "All I can say is that this document was never received by the
22 military police commander ..."
23 Again, that's a reference to P125. And General Tolimir ended the
24 quote there. Now, I don't think there's any dispute that this military
25 police commander that this refers to here is Major Malinic. And I'm sure
1 that if General Tolimir disagrees he'll let us know.
2 Now, let's look at some more of General Savcic's testimony which
3 General Tolimir didn't quote to you yesterday, and let's look at the very
4 next line, line 9, where General Savcic, if there were any doubt, says:
5 I have -- "I base that on the statement by Major Malinic."
6 So in that portion that General Tolimir quoted to you, "all I can
7 say is that this document was never received by the military police
8 commander ..." it may seem obvious, sir, but is that referring to
9 Major Malinic allegedly never receiving the document?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, if we go down to line 12, and this is another portion that
12 General Tolimir didn't quote to you yesterday, we see that Colonel Savcic
13 is basing his claim that Major Malinic allegedly never received the
14 telegram, not on any conversation he had with Major Malinic in
15 July of 1995 or at any time in 1995, but on a single conversation he had
16 with Malinic sometime after General Savcic's OTP interview.
17 Do you see that, sir?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. Do you know off the top of your head when in 2005 General Savcic
20 was interviewed by the OTP?
21 A. No, I don't remember. I remember the year, it was 2005, but I
22 don't remember the month.
23 Q. Okay. Well, you can take my word for it that it was in
24 October 2005, and if General Tolimir disagrees, I'm sure he'll let us
25 know about that as well.
1 Now, do you recall yesterday when General Tolimir quoted to you
2 from General Savcic's testimony and I objected that he was being
3 selective in his quotations.
4 Do you remember that yesterday?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. Okay. And in fact at transcript page 3700 yesterday
7 General Tolimir claimed, and I quote:
8 "I haven't read anything about Major Malinic ..."
9 Do you remember him saying that to the Trial Chamber yesterday?
10 A. Yes, he says that.
11 Q. Now, despite not quoting any of these portions to you,
12 General Tolimir repeated yesterday - and this is at transcript page 3703,
13 line 9, that's three pages after claiming that he didn't read anything
14 about Major Malinic - General Tolimir repeated, and I quote:
15 "Does Savcic claim in his testimony that the commander of the
16 military police never received this document?"
17 Do you remember that from yesterday?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. Okay. And you answered at line 12 that, and I quote:
20 "I think he says also that he never discussed the contents of
21 this document or whatever, the order, you know, with the commander of the
22 military battalion of the 65th Protection Regiment, if I correctly
23 remember the transcript."
24 MR. THAYER: Now can we go to the next page in e-court, please,
25 and this is transcript page 15264 of Colonel Savcic's Popovic testimony,
1 page 34 in e-court. And this was --
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Microphone not activated]
3 Continue, and then Mr. Tolimir before the witness answers.
4 Mr. Tolimir.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I welcome everybody
8 present and may God protect you and may God's will be done. May the
9 outcome be as God wishes and not as I wish.
10 If Mr. Thayer is quoting me, what I said for the transcript, then
11 he should quote me saying that the commander of the battalion, without
12 mentioning his name, never received this telegram or acted upon it which
13 is very important. He didn't act upon the telegram because he never
14 received it. But Mr. Thayer doesn't want to say so, doesn't want to say
15 how it was in the transcript. He is putting it totally differently and
16 he is reproducing my words his own way. Please consider this, because
17 what I said for the transcript yesterday should be reproduced fairly and
18 accurately. Thank you.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
20 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I think even the briefest reading of
21 the transcript will show that I am simply quoting verbatim what
22 General Tolimir told this Trial Chamber yesterday. And if he's got any
23 cites to the record to the contrary, then I'm sure he will let us know.
24 If I may continue with my examination, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just to avoid any misunderstanding, can you again
1 give us the -- I think you did it already. But where is the reference
2 from what Mr. Tolimir was saying yesterday?
3 MR. THAYER: There are a couple of references, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Only the last one.
5 MR. THAYER: The first one was at 3700, where he claimed that "I
6 haven't read anything about Major Malinic," that was at transcript
7 page 3700. Then he repeated again at 3703, line 9:
8 "Does Savcic claim in his testimony that the commander of the
9 military police never received this document?"
10 And I've already cited to the witness the portion that
11 General Tolimir claims I did not do, which was his selective reading of
12 General Savcic's testimony yesterday which ended with the question
13 about -- or the allegation that Major Malinic never received this order.
14 I went through all that with the witness about five minutes ago.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please carry on, Mr. Thayer.
16 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir -- just a moment.
18 Mr. Tolimir.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said that I was
20 misquoted by the Prosecutor because what had been interpreted to me is
21 something that I said at the end. The sentence was that the commander of
22 the battalion never received the telegram or act upon it which is very
23 important because these were important activities. And now this element
24 of acting upon it is now being left out. Look at what I said yesterday
25 when I finished reading out what my advisor, what my consultant,
1 translated to me, especially the last sentence. That must be borne in
2 mind because acting is rather different from receiving something. Thank
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, we have your position now on the
5 record. This is quite clear. And Mr. Thayer should continue his
7 Please carry on.
8 MR. THAYER:
9 Q. Now, if we look at page 15264, I want to focus on a portion I'd
10 wanted to show you yesterday, and that's when General Tolimir claimed
11 that Mr. Gajic hadn't given it to him because he doesn't read English.
12 Now -- actually, by the way, Mr. Blaszczyk, are you aware that the OTP
13 has furnished General Tolimir with the audio recordings of the Popovic
14 testimony in his own language?
15 A. Yes, I am.
16 Q. Now, if we look at line 13 on this page, Mr. Vanderpuye asked
17 Colonel Savcic if when he spoke with Major Malinic about the telegram,
18 did he discuss the specifics of it with Major Malinic in that single
19 conversation in 2005. And if we look at Colonel Savcic's response at
20 line 16, he says:
21 "No. To be honest, I didn't. The document was not available to
22 me. I didn't have it on me. Mr. McCloskey had shown it to me in
23 Banja Luka, and we had discussed this document. So I did not go into the
24 contents of the document. I just inquired about the existence of the
25 document. I asked him whether he remembered that he received a telegram
1 from me on the 13th of July. Since he said that he didn't, I really
2 didn't go into the details of the contents of the document. I just told
3 him that it referred to the treatment of prisoners of war. I really did
4 not try to retain the contents, bullet point by bullet point, so I could
5 not discuss the details with anybody."
6 Sir, is that the testimony you were referring to yesterday when
7 you said "if I correctly remember the transcript"? Is that the testimony
8 you were thinking about?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. Now, I want to spend a little bit more time talking about how
11 you, as an investigator, authenticated this document, P125. We looked at
12 three intercepts yesterday. And to save time I didn't put up the
13 print-outs, but we've got all morning, so I'm not going to use that as an
14 invitation to waste time but I want to show the print-outs now that we
15 have the opportunity.
16 MR. THAYER: May we see P410B, please. And this is under seal,
17 Mr. President.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will not be broadcast.
19 MR. THAYER:
20 Q. Okay. Looking at the original B/C/S on the left-hand screen,
21 sir, do you see a date of this intercept report?
22 A. Yes, I do. This is on the left-hand corner. There is the date
23 of the report, the date 13 July 1995.
24 Q. Okay. Now, what is the time on the first intercept that you see
25 reported on there?
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yesterday I objected
3 that in the re-examination questions were being put about which the
4 witness hasn't been asked either in the direct examination or in the
5 cross-examination. This witness has been brought here to tender the
6 Drina Corps documents through him, but now the Prosecutor is now
7 interpreting documents of the Federation through this witness. He is
8 trying to tender some conversations from transcripts made at a time after
9 the document was made. Can this be right if a conversation took place --
10 we saw two conversations yesterday, one at 1405, one at 1402. Can that
11 be a foundation for the contents of a telegram?
12 We're talking about the authenticity of a document. I don't know
13 whether Mr. Thayer is saying that Savcic was at Borike and whether I was
14 invited there to hear the conversation. Is that what he's trying to put
15 to you? If so, then he must get Savcic here and not this witness who
16 isn't an expert for transcripts. I haven't discussed the contents of any
17 document with him, only the authenticity. I didn't want to embarrass
19 In the first cross-examination he said that he found the document
20 as it was in the archives of the Drina Corps; but yesterday he said that
21 he received it from Colonel Acimovic. Yesterday he said that since they
22 left to Gornji Milanovac, the documents were never in the possession of
23 its users again, but that they went to the MUP and from the MUP to the
24 Ministry of Defence and from there to Zagreb, and that the documents were
25 under the control of the Tribunal. I don't want to embarrass anybody. I
1 didn't want to point that out because I didn't mind. I didn't want to
2 embarrass the witness. But please consider that this re-examination
3 should not try to turn this witness into something else. Because he
4 seems to be becoming an expert for all sorts of things, maybe even the
5 air force.
6 I only discussed the authenticity of the documents, about the
7 fact that Savcic was not at the command post at Borike. And if the
8 Prosecutor's arguing the contrary, then he must show documents to support
9 his claims. The more so since this is a witness who worked for the
10 Prosecution. And now it is easy to construe things. How does he know
11 about transcripts and conversations now? I only spoke about the
12 Drina Corps with him, the documents of that corps. Thank you.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. We -- the Chamber understood your
15 Mr. Thayer.
16 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, General Tolimir well knows the
17 importance of authenticating the Drina Corps collection documents to this
18 case, and he clearly well knows the critical importance of P125 to
19 establishing his guilt in this case. Had he not known, he wouldn't have
20 spent so much time challenging the authenticity of that document by
21 talking about teleprinters, talking about Danko Gojkovic's testimony,
22 trotting out Colonel Savcic's testimony to you, all in an effort,
23 knowingly and well planned and as is his right and as we expected, to
24 challenge the Prosecution's evidence and the authenticity of its
25 documents, in particular the Borike memo.
1 Now, in terms of the immediate issue, this document, yesterday
2 when we reviewed those intercepts General Tolimir specifically objected
3 that there was no date on them. And what I am doing now is simply going
4 through what we can all see, which is the dates. I plan to just go
5 through these two intercepts with the notebooks so that the Trial Chamber
6 can see the dates, in specific response to General Tolimir's objection
7 that he didn't see any date on the notebooks.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, Mr. Thayer, the view -- my view, the
9 Prosecution's now challenging your content of the cross-examination.
10 This is the right of a party during re-examination, but it is up to the
11 Chamber to give weight to the content. At the moment we understand the
12 Prosecution as going through evidence related to P125. And we will see
13 what is it about, and I think Mr. Thayer should carry on.
14 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Q. Now, sir, can you just note for the record what the time is on
16 this first intercept.
17 A. This is 1300 hours and 55 minutes.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would kindly ask
20 the Prosecutor, here in this cross-examination, not to speak about the
21 intentions of the Defence and not to interpret them while he's
22 questioning the witness. He can do that for the Trial Chamber or at a --
23 with joint agreement of the parties, that's one thing.
24 The second thing is he says Tolimir is guilty; you can see that
25 from this document. He has to specify the type of guilt. This is a
1 document that was created five minutes before the one at Borike. This is
2 a document that Tolimir did not take part in the drafting of, does not
3 know about it -- did not know about it until now. So could he please be
4 a bit more specific about the types of charges here. I would like to be
5 protected from some kind of arbitrary formulations that are being stated
6 here, and this witness is not really competent to discuss these
7 particular matters. Thank you.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, to avoid any misunderstanding,
9 Mr. Thayer, in my view, didn't say that you are guilty. It has something
10 to do with the question if guilt can be established during this trial,
11 and this is quite different. And therefore I think you must not be --
12 have any concern about the protection of your rights. You have rights
13 pursuant to the Rules of Procedure and Evidence of this Tribunal and you
14 used quite a lot of time during cross-examination - this is your
15 right - and this is not in any way challenged by the Prosecution.
16 Now the Prosecution is challenging the content of your
17 cross-examination; this is the right of the Prosecution during
18 re-examination. I think your position is very clear. Now we would like
19 to know what is the position of the Prosecution during the continuation
20 of the re-examination.
21 Mr. Thayer, please continue --
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please --
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think, Mr. Tolimir, it's not the best way just
24 to continue this debate, this discussion, about these topics. Your
25 position is very clear, Mr. Tolimir.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Well, that is your
3 MR. THAYER: May we ...
4 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
5 MR. THAYER: Is it okay to continue, Mr. President?
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, please.
7 MR. THAYER: Okay.
8 May we go forward two pages in the original and stay where we are
9 on the English, please.
10 Q. Okay. Can you tell us what the time is on the intercept that's
11 on the left, sir.
12 A. 1400 hours.
13 Q. Okay. And can you tell -- well, I'll just leave it there. Okay.
14 So we've got an intercept, 1400 hours. This is the one that we looked at
15 yesterday on the right; is that correct, sir?
16 A. Yes, this is correct.
17 Q. Okay. Now, let's do the same exercise with P411.
18 MR. THAYER: And that's 411B, please, the print-out. And this is
19 also under seal. Okay.
20 Q. And on the left do you see the original intercept report, sir;
21 and if you do, can you tell us what the date is?
22 A. Yes, I see the date of this report is 13th July 1995.
23 Q. Okay. And can you tell us what the time is on the first
25 A. The time from the first intercept is 1300 hours, 55 minutes,
1 five minutes to 2.00.
2 Q. Okay. And is this, in fact, the same print-out that we just
3 looked at a second ago which contains a number of intercepts?
4 A. Yes, this is correct.
5 Q. Okay.
6 MR. THAYER: So let's go to three more pages in the original and
7 stay on the English translation -- I'm sorry, one page back in the
8 original. Okay.
9 Q. Do we see the intercept at 1400 hours?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. And is that the one you just identified with the last exhibit?
12 A. Yes, it's correct.
13 MR. THAYER: Okay. If we could scroll down a little bit.
14 Q. Do you see an intercept at 1405?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. Okay. And does this intercept correspond to the one we saw
17 yesterday in the notebook?
18 A. Yes, we saw this intercept yesterday. We discussed this
19 intercept yesterday.
20 Q. Okay. I want to talk a little bit about the third intercept that
21 we saw yesterday.
22 MR. THAYER: May we have 65 ter number 765 on the screen, and
23 this is the notebook of the 3rd.
24 Q. Okay. You remember this notebook entry from yesterday, sir?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. Okay. Now, the Trial Chamber has heard testimony that there were
2 three units working as intercept operators at one of the locations, the
3 northern one. Those units were the 2nd Corps, the MUP, and the
4 21st Division. Are you familiar with that, sir?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. And I think we can probably all recite in our sleep the testimony
7 that we heard over and over again from the ABiH 2nd Corps intercept
8 operators who testified about writing all their intercepts in the
9 notebooks but not writing the dates in the notebooks because they knew
10 that the typist cryptographer was going to enter the date in the
11 notebook. Are you familiar with all that testimony, sir?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. Okay. Now, yesterday the Trial Chamber heard, I believe, from
14 the first 21st Division intercept operator witness, and if my memory
15 serves, he said that in their notebooks, the 21st Division operators
16 noted the date in the notebook every day. Are you familiar with that,
18 A. I don't remember, but possibly.
19 Q. Okay. Well, let's look at the notebook that this notebook on the
20 screen came out of, and I've got the original here.
21 MR. THAYER: And if we may have 65 ter 1670 on e-court, please.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
23 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I have
24 an objection because this was also not a part of the examination-in-chief
25 or the cross-examination, and now we're talking about this in the
1 redirect. Thank you.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
3 MR. THAYER: Again, Mr. President, General Tolimir objected
4 yesterday that he didn't see any dates connected with the intercepts, and
5 what I am doing now is showing the witness a notebook in which I think
6 that question will be clearly answered.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. Please carry on.
8 Mr. Tolimir.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. Mr. Thayer asked the
10 witness if he recalled the conversation. He said "I do," as if he were
11 the one who intercepted it. So it's not the date and the time; we're
12 talking about the contents here. That is the essence of my objection.
13 Thank you.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The question was: "Are you familiar with all
15 that testimony, sir?"
16 And the answer is: "Yes, I do."
17 This is page 16, line 3 and 4. This is quite different from what
18 you stated just now.
19 Please carry on, Mr. Thayer.
20 MR. THAYER: Okay. Thank you, Mr. President. We're having a
21 little bit of an e-court glitch at the moment. I think we'll -- what we
22 can do is do this the old-fashioned way and use the ELMO as a backup here
23 because we've got the wrong exhibit on e-court, but we've got the
24 original here for everybody to see.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Court Usher will assist you.
1 MR. THAYER: We need to zoom out a little bit, if we could, so we
2 catch the cover. Okay.
3 For the record, we have a notebook with the ERN 0078-1141 on the
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is the witness in a position to have it on the
6 screen as well?
7 THE WITNESS: No, I don't have it on the screen, but I have the
8 original here.
9 MR. THAYER:
10 Q. If you'd -- you might have to twist around a little bit,
11 Mr. Blaszczyk, but if you can work with the original.
12 A. Yes, I got it.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
14 MR. THAYER:
15 Q. There are two dates towards the top of the notebook here.
16 They're kind of hard to see on the ELMO. Can you read out what those
17 dates there, and if there are words next to them that you can read and
18 interpret for us, please do; if you can't, then just give us the dates
19 that you see at the top of the notebook.
20 A. May I use the original?
21 Q. Yeah, just pick up the original and feel free to just read
22 the ...
23 A. There are two dates. The first date is when the book was opened,
24 in fact; it's 29 June 1995. And the date when "zatvoren," which means
25 "closed," the book was closed, 23 July 1995.
1 Q. Okay. Now, if we could open up that notebook, please, and go to
2 the first page with writing on it. Okay. And for the record this is
3 ERN 0078-1143. Okay. Do we see any date on this page, sir?
4 A. No, I don't see a date here. I see a time.
5 Q. Okay. If we could flip a couple pages, and if you want to just
6 do it slowly, we'll go to the next page, 1143 to 1144, 1145, if you can
7 slide it over so we can just see 1144 first. Perfect. Thank you. We
8 don't see any dates there. 1145. Now if we can look at 1146, do you see
9 any dates there? 1147. Next page, 1148. And then how about the next
10 page, 1149.
11 A. This page is visible date, 30 June 1995, Friday.
12 Q. Okay. If you could scoot the book over just a little bit so we
13 can see the ERN on that page. Okay. So you said the cover of the book
14 had a date of 29 June 1995, when you said the book was opened, and now
15 here we have the first date of 30 June 1995.
16 Now, can you flip to the page that we saw a few minutes ago on
17 the screen in the notebook, and that's the ERN 0078-1236. Can you just
18 find that page, sir. Okay. And is this the intercept notebook page that
19 we saw a few minutes ago with the time of 1602 hours, sir?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. Okay. Is there a date on this page?
22 A. No, I don't see any date here.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. I see a time.
25 Q. Then let's work backwards and see if we can find a date for this
1 notebook. Can you turn back to 1235. Okay. Do you see a date there,
3 A. Yeah, in the previous page is date 13 July 1995, first day.
4 Q. And is there a time for that first intercept there?
5 A. Yes, the time is 0800 hours and 08, eight minutes past 8.00, if I
6 see correctly.
7 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir.
8 MR. THAYER: We're done with this exhibit.
9 Mr. President, I thought that we had a 65 ter number which is
10 what we tried to put up on the screen, but it turns out that's connected
11 to apparently a different notebook. So I'm not sure if we have a
12 65 ter number for this entire notebook. We certainly had a 65 ter number
13 for the intercept that came out of it. We'll explore that with you and
14 we may have to come back and just provide a 65 ter number and apply to
15 add that to the list.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think in this case we have to deal with a lot
17 of problems with numbers and MFI'd documents, and so on. But please
18 carry on.
19 MR. THAYER: Okay. Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Q. We're done with that, Mr. Blaszczyk. Thank you.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the document at
23 1602, can that be the basis to prove the authenticity of the document?
24 Well, Mr. Thayer can say whether that can be used for the document which
25 was created at 1406, and was there a command post there, was
1 General Savcic there, was Tolimir there, was he a participant in one of
2 those conversations? Can we clarify this with the witness because it is
3 also within the context of the testimony. Thank you.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
5 MR. THAYER: General Tolimir well knows what the context of this
6 testimony is and the purpose for which these intercepts are being shown.
7 And I'm going to turn directly now to P125, the Borike memo to continue
8 showing how this document was authenticated by Mr. Blaszczyk in the
9 investigation, which lay at the heart of General Tolimir's
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: First, is it possible to show the original
12 notebook to the accused and to the Chamber, please.
13 Secondly, Mr. Tolimir, the Chamber is at this stage not in a
14 position to say anything about authenticity of the document. We just
15 listen and we review all the evidence, the documentary evidence, and the
16 testimony of witnesses at a later stage. There's no comment on that at
17 the moment. We just receive evidence.
18 Wait a moment, please, Mr. Thayer. We would like to have a look
19 at the document.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May this document be given to the accused and
22 Mr. Gajic.
23 Mr. Tolimir.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President. I don't want to
25 look at this document. I'm not the participant in the document. I'm
1 talking about the document 525 that we can see on the screen. I
2 contested its authenticity. There's a possibility that it just found its
3 way there or that somebody planted it there because there is nothing else
4 other than the copy of this document. This is what I would like to say
5 about the document with the number 525. Thank you.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. But it is P125, what we have on the
7 screen now, not 525.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, for
9 correcting me. Yes, this is P125. Thank you.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
11 Mr. Thayer, please carry on.
12 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Q. Now, let's take a look at the -- towards the top of this Borike
14 document. We see that it's headed "Procedure for treatment of prisoners
15 of war," and I think we've been through this before, but it never hurts
16 to repeat. Can you tell us who the actual officers are by name that are
17 referred to in the recipient portion where it says "to." And let's just
18 start first with the commander of the VRS Main Staff. July 1995, who's
20 A. The commander of the Main Staff of Republika Srpska army in
21 July 1995 was General Mladic, Ratko Mladic. Assistant commander for
22 morale, religious, and legal affairs of the Main Staff of VRS was
23 General Gvero. And commander of the military police battalion of the
24 65th Motorised Protection Regiment was Major Malinic.
25 Q. And then we see that this is captioned as an "order." Do you see
1 that, sir?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. Okay. Now, we spent some time looking at evidence concerning
4 these thousand -- over a thousand Muslim soldiers that are referred to in
5 the first line of this document. That's why we went through all the
6 intercepts and everything else thus far. Let's look at where it says:
7 "Assistant commander for security and intelligence affairs of the
8 VRS Main Staff proposes the following measures ..."
9 Let's look at proposed measure number 1. Do you see where it
10 says that:
11 "Prohibit access to unauthorised individuals, filming and
12 photographing of prisoners."
13 A. Yes, it's written here.
14 Q. Based on your investigation, Mr. Blaszczyk, what organs within
15 the VRS were responsible for guarding and escorting prisoners?
16 A. It was security organ of VRS, military police.
17 Q. And in July 1995 who was the chief of security within the VRS?
18 A. The chief of security and intelligence was General Tolimir, but
19 chief of security was Colonel Beara.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object again
22 because all the combat documents, directives, orders, are being
23 misrepresented deliberate -- misrepresented here. And what is the idea
24 is to be imputing this assignment to somebody else. I don't know if this
25 witness is an expert, and then if he is an expert in these matters, he
1 can read the document and then explain what the term "to be responsible
2 for prisoners" means.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
4 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I think the question was clear and it
5 was understood by the witness and we have his answer, and I would like to
6 move to the second line if I could.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you raised an objection, but in fact
8 I don't understand that. What is the essence of your objection? I would
9 like to know that.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The gist
11 of my objection is that the -- Mr. Thayer has put a suggestive -- a
12 leading question to the witness, and he's saying this is put forward by
13 Tolimir. But if the investigator studied his matter well, he will know
14 that the assistant for logistics would be the one who is responsible for
15 the prisoners and not the chief of intelligence. So we're having an
16 erroneous answer here and erroneous conclusions are being drawn on the
17 basis of this document. So I would like the -- both conclusions and
18 everything else to rely strictly on what is said in the document. Thank
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer read out precisely what is written in
21 the document, and I haven't heard that he has said and put to the witness
22 that Mr. Tolimir was responsible for logistics. I haven't heard that.
23 Please carry on, Mr. Thayer.
24 MR. THAYER:
25 Q. Let's look at - thank you, Mr. President - proposed measure
1 number 2, where it says:
2 "Prohibit traffic for all United Nations vehicles ..." and then
3 it lays out a route.
4 Based on your investigations, sir, what organs within the VRS
5 were responsible for regulating traffic and setting up check-points?
6 A. It was military police of VRS under the command of security
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The security department never had
10 police in its ranks nor was it superior to the police. This is a plot of
11 the Prosecution to put responsibility on Tolimir because the security --
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir --
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- department is not responsible
14 for the police.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, this is not a correct objection. We
16 receive answers from the witness and it is up to the Chamber at the end,
17 and you may then put your case to the Chamber, if we can believe it what
18 the witness says or not. He -- this witness is very clearly not an
19 eye-witness. He was not present when the war was going on. He is
20 testifying about the results and the way of his investigation. That's a
21 big difference. And it's up to the Chamber and the parties at the end of
22 the trial to find a solution. It's not appropriate now to comment every
23 answer of the witness.
24 Mr. Thayer, please carry on.
25 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 Q. Let's look at proposed measure number 3 where it says that the:
2 "Commander of the military police battalion shall take measures
3 to remove war prisoners from the main Milici-Zvornik road, place them
4 somewhere indoors or in an area protected from observation from the
5 ground or air."
6 Now, we see that there's a reference to observation from the
7 ground or air. Is there any reference in this Borike memo to -- proposal
8 to protection from bombing?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did the Muslims, the Muslim army, have any combat aircraft based
11 on your investigation that you know of in July of 1995?
12 A. No, I don't know about it. I'm not aware about such forces.
13 Q. How about NATO? Did NATO have combat aircraft available in
14 July of 1995?
15 A. Yes, of course NATO had combat planes available.
16 Q. Now, focusing on this proposal here to place the prisoners out of
17 sight from being seen both -- not just from the air in a helicopter or
18 airplane but also from people on the ground, can you tell the
19 Trial Chamber based on your investigation where the prisoners who were
20 captured and gathered at Nova Kasaba were taken on the 13th of July?
21 A. Yes, the prisoners who were captured and kept at the beginning in
22 Nova Kasaba soccer field were taken to Bratunac in buses and trucks and
23 were kept at the school in Bratunac and also in the hangar behind the
24 school. We call this school Vuk Karadzic school in Bratunac.
25 Q. And how about the prisoners who were captured and collected and
1 gathered at the Sandici meadow on the 13th of July, where were they
2 taken, Mr. Blaszczyk?
3 A. The people who were guarded -- the Muslim prisoners who were
4 guarded at Sandici meadow were taken also to Kravica warehouse. This is
5 place located from Sandici about 900 metres, 1 kilometre.
6 Q. Now, how about the prisoners who, as you just testified, had been
7 held in Bratunac at the Vuk Karadzic school and in buses around the town
8 of Bratunac, where did they go?
9 A. After -- shortly after that, people were transported to the
10 Zvornik area, also to the -- mostly to the schools in the Zvornik area.
11 It was school Orahovac, Petkovci, Rocevic, Pilica.
12 Q. And, sir, did your investigation reveal any evidence that after
13 the 13th of July in the afternoon, when Danko Gojkovic typed this
14 document into the teleprinter and sent it out, that any large groups of
15 prisoners were left outside in the open?
16 A. I think the process of taking out prisoners from the open air was
17 still pending at that time. At 1400 hours the people were taken to
18 Kravica warehouse and Sandici meadow and then from soccer field in
19 Nova Kasaba to Bratunac.
20 Q. So my question is: After this Borike memo was sent out in the
21 afternoon, and we see on the original 1510 hours, after that memo went
22 out, this Borike proposal and order, did your investigation reveal any
23 evidence that groups of Muslim prisoners were left out in the open?
24 A. No. Most of the people were sent to, as I said, to Bratunac in
25 the houses -- I mean the school in Bratunac, and they were kept in the
1 buses in Kravica; small group also in the junction in Konjevic Polje.
2 Q. And based on your investigation, sir, approximately when did the
3 first large-scale mass executions of the prisoners that had been placed
4 out of sight in those various structures begin?
5 A. The first mass executions in large scale started in Kravica
6 warehouse, and this was on the 13th of July, 1995, in afternoon hours.
7 Q. And, sir, are you familiar with what Colonel Savcic said in his
8 OTP interview and his Popovic testimony about what this order to keep the
9 prisoners out of sight meant?
10 A. I think during his testimony he referred something to the
11 possible -- I don't remember, but of course it was in his explanation.
12 Q. Do you remember him saying, among other things, that he was
13 concerned that NATO might --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- bomb large groups of prisoners?
16 A. Yes, it was his words and it was -- for me this is unreliable.
17 Q. Do you remember him saying in the Popovic case that he thought it
18 might have something to do with the Geneva Conventions banning prisoners
19 from being exposed to public viewing by average people, do you remember
21 A. Yes, yes, yes, I do remember.
22 Q. Let's look at line 4, which is proposed measure number 4.
23 "Once the commander of the military police battalion receives
24 this order, he shall contact General Miletic and receive from him
25 additional orders and verify if the proposal has been approved by the
1 commander of the VRS Main Staff."
2 Who or -- who -- I'm sorry. I'm sounding like an owl.
3 What was General Miletic's position in July of 1995?
4 A. In July of 1995 General Miletic was the assistant commander for
5 operation -- I mean assistant commander of the Main Staff of VRS.
6 Q. And when you say he was in the operations field, was he chief of
7 operations and training, sir?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Is that fair to say?
10 A. Yes, it's fair to say. This is his full title.
11 Q. So he's not actually an assistant commander; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, you're right, not assistant commander.
13 Q. Okay. I just wanted to make the record clear about that. Now,
14 did your investigation and your work with the Drina Corps collection
15 documents ever reveal any orders from anyone adopting any of these
17 A. There are a lot of orders, but I don't know what you mean
18 exactly. Which order?
19 Q. Okay.
20 MR. THAYER: Let's look at 65 ter 2100, please. And this will be
21 the -- I think the last document we'll look at today.
22 Q. Okay, sir, I just want to give you a minute to look at this
23 document, re-familiarise yourself with it.
24 A. Yes, yes, yes, I remember this document. I think it was seized
25 also in the collection of -- for sure it was a Drina Corps collection
2 MR. THAYER: And if we can go to page 2 of this order and we'll
3 see who it's from.
4 THE WITNESS: This is --
5 MR. THAYER: In the English, that is. Okay. Now, can we go back
6 to page 1 of the English.
7 Q. And we can see, if we're looking at the original version of this
8 order that it's type-signed, as we refer to it, by whom, sir?
9 A. This is Glavni Stab, Vojska Republika Srpska, this is Main Staff
10 of Army of Republika Srpska.
11 Q. And if we just look down at the very bottom.
12 A. Yes, we see the name of General Ratko Mladic.
13 Q. Okay. A little bit of typo problem there with the teleprinter;
14 is that fair to say?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. Okay.
17 MR. THAYER: I don't think there's any dispute that this order is
18 emanating -- originating from General Mladic.
19 Q. We see two initials or two letters, S. R., after General Mladic's
20 name there if we're looking at bottom of the original. What does "S. R."
21 stand for in your experience in this investigation?
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We would like to have the end of the document in
23 English as well.
24 THE WITNESS: I did remember, but --
25 MR. THAYER:
1 Q. Okay. Let me try to help you. Have you ever heard that referred
2 to as "in his own hand" or "by own hand"?
3 A. Yes, yes, yes. Yes, but I don't know the words, the B/C/S words
4 of this expression.
5 Q. Okay. Well, we'll, I'm sure, hear more about that with other
6 witnesses. But does that indicate that General Mladic in the original
7 order personally signed and was present to sign the order? Is that what
8 the gist of that initial is, sir, those initials, S. R.?
9 A. Yes, yes, it means that it was done by him.
10 Q. Okay.
11 MR. THAYER: If we may have page 1 of the English back on
12 e-court, please. And if we could scroll up a little bit in the B/C/S --
13 actually, in both versions, sorry. Thank you. All right.
14 Q. And with the Usher's assistance I'd ask to hand up to you the
15 original of this from out of the Drina Corps collection. And if we can
16 hand it up to the Chamber and to General Tolimir, and I'll ask you a
17 question on it. And I would just draw your attention to the upper
18 right-hand corner of the document.
19 Do you see a signature?
20 A. Yes, I recognise this signature. This is Danko Gojkovic's
22 Q. And is that signature in original ink, sir?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And there's some writing and some numbers next to this signature.
25 What does that say? Can you tell the Trial Chamber.
1 A. This is in the top of -- above the signature there is the date,
2 13 July 1995. And word in B/C/S, in Cyrillic, "Primljeno" 2250 minutes.
3 "Primljeno," it means "received." And two letters below "-a/a." This is
4 sent to -- for archive.
5 Q. Thank you --
6 A. And confirming that this document was received by the Rogatica
7 Brigade below it's very visible right now, in the original, of course,
8 the stamp of the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade.
9 Q. Okay. And if we could just scroll down in the original so we can
10 have an idea of what you're talking about there. Okay. Are you
11 referring to the stamp that's in the middle at the very bottom of the
12 page, sir, where it says "komanda"?
13 A. Yes, I am referring to this stamp.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. In translation there is not -- not mentioned Podrinje Light
16 Infantry Brigade but -- 1st Light Infantry Brigade, but this is
17 Podrinje -- well known as Rogatica Brigade, of course.
18 Q. So the illegible word in the translation you can read in the
19 original, and what is that word?
20 A. This is "Podrinjska." It means Podrinje.
21 Q. Okay. And what brigade was Danko Gojkovic a teleprinter operator
23 A. As was said here many times, he was a member of the 1st Podrinje
24 Light Infantry Brigade, so-called Rogatica Brigade member.
25 Q. Okay.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now I have to ask you not to overlap. You are
2 speaking in the same language and it is very difficult for the recorder
3 to follow your conversation.
4 THE WITNESS: My apologies.
5 MR. THAYER: My apologies as well, Mr. President.
6 Okay, if we could ask the Usher to pass that up, please.
7 Thank you, Mr. Usher.
8 Now, if we go back to page 1 of the translation and scroll up a
9 little bit in the original, please. All the way. There we go. Thank
11 Q. Now we can -- if we look at the upper left-hand corner of this
12 document, we can see that this order emanates from the Main Staff of the
13 VRS, and there's the strictly confidential number that you spoke about
14 yesterday. And we see the -- we refer to them as ordinals 03/4. Based
15 on your experience, do you know whether those ordinals denote any
16 particular part of the VRS Main Staff?
17 A. I don't remember.
18 Q. Okay. Now, we can see that this is distributed to the commands
19 of the Drina Corps, the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment,
20 communications regiment, the sector for morale, religious, and legal
21 affairs, again, that's General Gvero; correct, sir?
22 A. Yes, it's correct.
23 Q. And a bunch of other brigades. And we see the final line
24 underlined "to the commander personally."
25 I want to go through some of the elements of this order.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I object. This has nothing to do
3 with Tolimir. The document isn't even registered as such. I don't know
4 what the foundation is for the -- for the assertion that I know about
5 this document because it wasn't even sent to me.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, especially as you are using this
7 document in re-examination.
8 MR. THAYER: Yes, Mr. President. The issue of authenticating
9 P125, as we have seen, can be approached from a number of angles,
10 establishing whether it reflects accurately the events on the ground, as
11 we did with the intercepts and Mr. Blaszczyk's testimony about what he
12 learned from various witnesses himself pertaining to the situation on the
13 ground that was reflected in that document.
14 What this document is being used to show is that, in fact, those
15 proposed measures in P125 were acted upon by General Mladic, having
16 received that proposal. He was one of the recipients in the proposal's
17 "to" list as we saw a moment ago, as was General Gvero. And one of the
18 ways that we can further authenticate P125 is by showing that in fact it
19 was received and acted upon, and General Mladic issued an order based on
20 it, reflecting some of those proposals. And I intend to go through the
21 document and examine the elements which flow from P125.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If you restrict your questioning to those portion
23 and for that purpose, please carry on.
24 MR. THAYER:
25 Q. Now, if we look at paragraph 1, please, point 1 of this order, it
2 "... prevent the entry of all uninvited individuals to the area
3 of combat operations in the general sector of Srebrenica and Zepa."
4 And, sir, how does that correspond, based on your work, your
5 investigation, your familiarity with P125, with any of the proposed
6 measures in P125, the Borike proposed order -- proposals and order?
7 A. This is continuation of the proposal from this Borike document.
8 MR. THAYER: And if we can, can we put in the English --
9 actually, let me consult with the expert here, with the Court's
11 [Prosecution counsel confer]
12 MR. THAYER: If we can, what I'd like to do is put the English
13 translation of P125 next to the English translation of 65 ter 2100. And
14 then -- and I will read the appropriate portions which then can get
15 translated into B/C/S.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And after that both documents could be shown on
17 the screen side by side in B/C/S. After that.
18 MR. THAYER: After that, sure.
19 Q. Okay. So you just told us that it corresponds to P125 and this
20 prohibiting access to all unauthorised -- I'm sorry, the preventing entry
21 of all uninvited individuals to the area of combat operations, what does
22 that correspond to in P125, sir?
23 A. It corresponds to the first point:
24 "Prohibit access to all unauthorised individuals, filming and
25 photographing of prisoners."
1 Q. And then we see in item 2, closing down -- I'm sorry, did you --
2 A. Yeah, and item 2 is:
3 "Until further notice, close the Konjevic Polje-Kravica-Bratunac
4 and Rogatica-Borike-Visegrad roads to traffic, except for the vehicles of
5 the VRS and MUP units engaged in combat operations."
6 It corresponds to point 2 from the Borike order:
7 "Prohibit traffic for all United Nations vehicles en route
8 Zvornik-Vlasenica until further notice ..."
9 And point 3 from the order of General Mladic:
10 "Set up roadblocks and check-points for the regulation and
11 control of traffic at the crossroads in Konjevic Polje and road leading
12 out of Bratunac towards Kravica and the Rogatica-Borike and
13 Visegrad-Borike roads."
14 As we see here on the Borike order, Borike document, it does
15 correspond to -- to the point, also 2, from Borike.
16 Q. And then again in item 4 of Mladic's order where he's preventing
17 the entry of all local and foreign journalists, except for those approved
18 by the VRS press centre, what proposal from the Borike proposal and order
19 does that correspond to?
20 A. As we see in the point 1 from this Borike document we see:
21 "Prohibit access to all unauthorised individuals, filming and
22 photographing of prisoners."
23 Q. And if we look at item 5 of General Mladic's order, where he
24 again orders the banning and preventing of giving of information, issuing
25 of announcements --
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. -- particularly in the issue of prisoners of war, evacuated
3 civilians, and so forth. What proposed measure from the Borike proposal
4 and order does that pertain to, sir?
5 A. This could be point 1 and point 3 from the Borike document.
6 MR. THAYER: Okay. Mr. President, I have couple more questions
7 for Mr. Blaszczyk, but I see we're at the break and I can finish very
8 quickly after the break.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
10 We must have the first break now and we will resume at 11.00
11 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.
12 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
14 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Q. Before we continue with the document we were reviewing before the
16 break, Mr. Blaszczyk, I just wanted to clarify one thing you said, and
17 this was at page 24, line 22. I asked you the question:
18 "Based on your investigation, what organs within the VRS were
19 responsible for regulating traffic and setting up check-points?"
20 And your answer was:
21 "It was the military police of the VRS under the command of the
22 security branch."
23 We're going to hear, I'm sure, plenty of testimony from
24 VRS officers from the time and probably some expert testimony as well on
25 this issue, but I want to clarify one thing you said here. When you
1 refer to "under the command of the security branch," I want to ask you
2 whether that's in fact correct or whether there's a different
3 relationship between the security branch and the military police that we
4 sometimes refer to as professional control or guidance or management as
5 opposed to "command" in the sense of a commander commanding the unit.
6 A. [Microphone not activated]
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The microphone of the witness is not activated.
8 Now everything is okay.
9 THE WITNESS: From my experience during this investigation, which
10 I took part in this investigation relating to the fall of Srebrenica, I
11 met and interviewed many military police officers, VRS military police
12 officers. And of course they were directed from both, let's say from
13 Bratunac Brigade, from Zvornik Brigade, and they were of course directed
14 to the commander of the brigades, but they were receiving orders from the
15 security officer of the brigade. And I believe this is the -- and I'm
16 sure that the security branch had kind of the control on the police, of
17 the military police.
18 MR. THAYER:
19 Q. Okay. As I said, we'll be hearing from other witnesses on this
20 topic, so I'll just leave it there.
21 Now, do we still have 65 ter 2100 on the screen? Okay. Sir,
22 shortly before we took the recess, General Tolimir again suggested that
23 P125, the document we see on the left, the Borike proposal -- proposals
24 and order, was planted or is in some other way inauthentic. Now, having
25 seen the original of General Mladic's order on the right, and I think
1 we've all seen now the original version with Danko Gojkovic's inked
2 signature, indicating that the Rogatica Brigade received that order at
3 2230 hours, how, if at all, did locating this document in the Drina Corps
4 collection affect your conclusion as an investigator, in combination with
5 the other elements of authentication that you've already talked about,
6 that P125 is an authentic document?
7 A. Considering this order and also intercept and witness statement
8 and testimony, I can conclude only that this is authentic document.
9 Q. We've heard a lot of references to the "Atlantida" binder, this
10 collection of documents that you talked about, that you found bound
11 together with this telegram, "Telegrami" heading and "Atlantida" written
12 on it, as you've testified. It's been separated out now so that we can
13 have each document in an individual folder. General Tolimir claimed that
14 with the exception of what he said were the first three documents - and
15 this is at transcript page 3682, line 3, yesterday - which were produced
16 by logistics organs:
17 "The rest contains telegrams which were written by me,"
18 General Tolimir, "and which you" - meaning you - "called "'Atlantida.'"
19 MR. THAYER: First of all, just so that there's no doubt on the
20 record -- and with the Usher's assistance, I just ask that the cover --
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes.
22 MR. THAYER: -- be handed to the witness.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, you will recall that I asked earlier
24 to have the B/C/S versions of both documents side by side on the screen.
25 MR. THAYER: Yes, you did, Mr. President. I apologise. If -- as
1 soon as the hardest-working man in the courtroom gets back, if we could
2 have that up, please.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir and Mr. Gajic, you have now the B/C/S
4 versions of both documents on the screen. I know you know the documents.
5 It's not -- nothing new, but I think you should have the chance to have a
6 look at this stage. Is that sufficient? Okay.
7 Then please carry on, Mr. Thayer.
8 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Now, if we may have P469 on e-court, please.
10 Q. And while we're waiting for that -- there we go. Sir, did you or
11 anyone from OTP write "Telegrami 28/34" on this document?
12 A. Of course not. As I said, I think, yesterday, that no one from
13 OTP made any redaction or correction in this -- our evidence in
15 Q. And this word "Atlantida" here, did anybody from OTP write that?
16 A. Also not.
17 Q. And did you have or anybody from the OTP have anything to do with
18 how these documents in this so-called "Atlantida" binder came to be
19 placed within this "Atlantida" binder?
20 A. No, no one from OTP. I believe no one from Tribunal.
21 Q. Now, General Tolimir also suggested that the OTP was somehow
22 selective in the documents that were in this binder and claimed that they
23 all were written by him.
24 MR. THAYER: And, Mr. President, I would offer the entire
25 "Atlantida" binder into evidence at this time. Each of the pages already
1 has a P number because it was listed on one of the Defence
2 cross-examination lists. We may have to postpone for a period of time
3 the actual tendering process because it's a considerable number of
4 numbers, but I can easily get that to Registry in time to take care of
5 that as early as Monday.
6 But I think it will become clear when one looks at the individual
7 documents in the "Atlantida" binder that they emanate from a number of
8 individuals and officers, not just General Tolimir. And I can take
9 Mr. Blaszczyk through some of these documents now and just show them to
10 the Trial Chamber, or I can just offer them to the Trial Chamber and at
11 the Trial Chamber's leisure you can see for yourself that the signatories
12 include other members of the Rogatica Brigade, General Krstic, for
13 example, from the Drina Corps, and others. I'm happy to take some
14 additional time and go through some of the individual documents if that's
15 the Court's preference or not.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, what is your position?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. My
18 objection is this: The "Atlantis" title is something I wanted to check.
19 I wanted to check its authenticity. I asked the witness before, in my
20 earlier cross-examination two months ago, he said that he had found such
21 an original in the Drina Corps collection. But yesterday he said that
22 this was given to him by Colonel Acimovic -- or some other colonel. And
23 now I don't know -- I mean, we need to establish that something is
24 authentic before it is admitted into evidence, and I think that should
25 also apply to the "Atlantis" document. Danko Gojkovic said that that was
1 the first time he was seeing the document and he said that when he was
2 here to testify. Thank you.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I think we would like to hear
4 something if you agree to tendering -- the tendering of the whole
5 document by the Prosecution, or if you are in agreement with this.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 [Defence counsel confer]
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The document has already been
9 admitted. It was not admitted through this witness. The entire
10 "Atlantis" binder. I thought at the time that it was an original until
11 Danko said that he had never seen it before. So now there is the
12 question of the authenticity of the actual cover itself, not of the
13 documents that are in the binder. I am objecting to the admission of
14 something that has not been verified and authenticated and we're not sure
15 if that is an original.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
17 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, Mr. Blaszczyk has been crystal clear
18 on a number of occasions with the Trial Chamber about the form in which
19 he found the "Atlantida" binder, the circumstances under which he first
20 saw it, and how it was processed, and how it came to be into the
21 courtroom today. General Tolimir has directly challenged the
22 authenticity of selected documents from the "Atlantida" binder. He has
23 sought to admit certain of the documents when it suits him, but he is
24 vigorously challenging the authenticity of other documents. And he is
25 specifically in addition challenging how this "Atlantida" binder was put
1 together. And we've already heard testimony from general -- from
2 Mr. Blaszczyk about his efforts to interview an individual he thinks,
3 based on his investigation, may have some knowledge about how this
4 particular mini collection of documents within the Drina Corps collection
5 was put together.
6 On that note, we have filed a motion on the 18th of June, seeking
7 to add that witness to the Prosecution's list of witnesses. We may need
8 a Court order if the Court grants our motion to bring that witness here,
9 but that will be for another day. In any event, General Tolimir has
10 placed the authenticity of this group of documents directly at issue.
11 Again, he has suggested that certain documents, including P125, was
12 planted. I think it would be helpful for the Trial Chamber to see
13 exactly how these documents lay together, as Mr. Blaszczyk has told the
14 Trial Chamber.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Can we delete the untruths from the transcript. All I am
18 disputing --
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, sorry -- no, we can't delete anything from
20 the transcript.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I did not dispute a
22 series of documents. We have been working for two days now, and all I'm
23 disputing is the title of this document, "Atlantida," because I'm saying
24 that this part where it says "telegrams," the witness did not write that
25 and that he did not write "Atlantida." And I disputed the document P125,
1 which was on the screen a little bit earlier. I did not dispute any
2 other document and it has been said -- stated here that Tolimir disputed
3 a series of other documents which is not true. I put in an objection
4 because the transcript is recording what appear to be untruths.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Again, we can't delete anything from the
6 transcript. What is said is said and it is recorded.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I apologise. I
8 misspoke. What I meant was to correct the errors, not to delete anything
9 from the transcript. I wanted my truth to be recorded as well. Thank
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It is recorded, and the Trial Chamber will
12 consider the positions.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, Mr. Thayer, I think all parts of this
15 binder are already in evidence as single and separate exhibits. What
16 about this cover page, is that part of one of these exhibits?
17 MR. THAYER: We were just doing the same exercise, Mr. President,
18 that is, 469. And we'll let the trial -- that also came in apparently
19 through Mr. Gojkovic.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I see Mr. Gajic in agreement.
21 And therefore, what is the purpose of your tendering the whole
22 document as one new exhibit?
23 MR. THAYER: Actually, Mr. President, if everything is in
24 separately, then there is no need to re-admit, obviously, everything as
25 one big exhibit. The idea is for they -- for the documents to be in a
1 particular order in which they were found so the Trial Chamber can at
2 least see that, so you can see how these documents lay inside this
3 binder. So I understand that they came in in bits and pieces through
4 Mr. Gojkovic, but the idea is to make them available to the Trial Chamber
5 in a form where you can see how this binder existed when Mr. Blaszczyk
6 first laid his hands and eyes on it.
7 Perhaps we can put our thinking hats on over the weekend and
8 figure out some way of doing that without giving everything a new number
9 and we can come back to the Trial Chamber easily on that.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Chamber appreciates this proposal because
11 otherwise we are really confused at the end. But you could show this
12 binder as you have it with you in the original form to the witness, to
13 the Chamber, and to the Defence, and we can, without going through all
14 documents, I think this is not the purpose of re-examination, let's have
15 a look -- let the witness have a look on it, if he can say anything about
16 his recognition.
17 Mr. Blaszczyk, could you say something, do you recognise
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. As I said some time ago, I
20 recognise this binder. The cover page is very clear for me, that at
21 first time I seen this cover page, the entire small binder called
22 "Atlantida" in Zagreb, at the field office in Zagreb. And the collection
23 of the documents seized by ICTY from MUP, RS MUP, and RS MOD arrived to
24 Zagreb on the 17th December 2004. During the next -- the following two
25 days and on the 17th as well, I reviewed almost entire -- almost entire
1 collection and I remember this binder very clear. The documents from
2 this collection I am keeping in my hands right now, they were clipped
3 together. And the first page we see on the screen, it was the first, the
4 cover page, of this binder in the same shape, except of course
5 ERN number.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please have a look at the first page where you
7 find "Atlantida" in front of you. In the original, not on the screen.
8 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, I can confirm, it's the same shape.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
10 Mr. Tolimir.
11 [Defence counsel confer]
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I thought since the
14 witness said that the first time he saw the document was in Zagreb and
15 that they were seized from the Ministry of Defence and from the MUP, but
16 these documents were in the OTP office in Banja Luka, then the question
17 could be the order in which they were arranged because the witness is
18 claiming something else than what another witness said, that the binder
19 was arranged in a different way. Perhaps this is something that could be
20 clarified. Thank you.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
22 MR. THAYER: Well, first I think it would be helpful to have a
23 direct citation of who this alleged witness is and what he said and when
24 he allegedly said it about this binder, if General Tolimir's serious
25 about what he just said. Otherwise, I'm not sure it's helpful to go any
1 further. Mr. Blaszczyk has made it clear, once again, the circumstances
2 under which he first laid his eyes and hands on the "Atlantida" binder.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Do you have any further questions for
4 Mr. Blaszczyk --
5 MR. THAYER: No, I do not --
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- in relation to "Atlantida"?
7 MR. THAYER: No questions further at all, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
9 Then the binder should be shown to the Chamber and the Defence.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, if I may, just one additional
12 question while you're looking at the originals there.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, please.
14 MR. THAYER:
15 Q. I think we went into this many moons ago when you first
16 testified, but how were these -- you said they were clipped together.
17 How were these actually clipped together, this collection of "Atlantida"
19 A. It was clipped together in the same order we see these documents
20 right now. The procedure here is that when the binder or whatever
21 document arrive into The Hague, it's accepted by Evidence Unit, even
22 if this is a binder, the documents are clipped together, the documents
23 are separated from the binder and are stamped in the same order by people
24 from Evidence Unit, giving to the particular page, the following pages,
25 the number.
1 Q. Okay. And I really want to get down to basics. When you found
2 this "Atlantida" binder, physically what was binding those pages
3 together? What was the actual binder? Was it a black, plastic clip?
4 Was it something with forks? What was holding it together?
5 A. No. We see on this cover page and on the pages following two
6 holes. It was clipped by a metal - I don't know how to call in
7 English - piece of metal together and clipped together.
8 Q. And so who stuck the individual pages that we -- that the
9 Trial Chamber has before it in those blue folders?
10 A. They were the people from Evidence Unit.
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Blaszczyk.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 Questioned by the Court:
14 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you, Mr. President. I have a question, more
15 a clarification from the witness. We have heard a lot of evidence
16 regarding authentication of documents. Can I ask you as a professional
17 policeman to explain the following: Authentication of document, is it a
18 special skill that can be possessed by a policeman in any police force or
19 is it the specialised training?
20 A. Of course the authentication of documents can be done by the
21 experts and in some extent by the police officers also because they are
22 working with these type of cases. And they have also kind of expertised
23 knowledge about how to deal with these type of documents. But in this
24 case, if you are talking about this particular case, it is a little bit
25 difficult because it is not typical police case because we have received
1 the documents after so many years, when the documents were produced and
2 kept in, let's say, not so good condition even for the documents, and so
3 many people touched these documents, we couldn't make any, let's say,
4 additional expertise regarding the authenticity of the documents.
5 General Tolimir mentioned some time ago about finger-prints and other --
6 this type of stuff. We are limited to other, let's say, option of the
7 investigation how to authenticate this document, this particular
9 JUDGE NYAMBE: Just a follow-up question to that one. Can any
10 policeman authenticate a document and give a conclusive opinion that is
11 original or not original?
12 A. I don't think so that this is possible for any policeman.
13 Policeman should have a knowledge about that list, about these type of
14 the documents, you should have experience about these type of the
15 documents, you should have knowledge about the case, and should be
16 involved in the investigation. I don't think that a policeman, for
17 example, from the patrol policeman or policeman from other unit, could
18 authenticate these documents having these documents in his hands right
20 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.
21 I now turn to the binder, the "Atlantida" binder, the folders of
22 which I have here. And I'm trying to understand what you meant by "they
23 were clipped."
24 A. Yes. This is -- you will see on this, each page of this -- each
25 document from this binder you see two holes over there, starting from --
1 yes, starting from cover page, "Atlantida" page, and the following pages,
2 they have the holes also.
3 JUDGE NYAMBE: I'm sorry, maybe -- I'm not following you. I
4 haven't seen the page that is written "Atlantida." So if you give me a
5 moment, I will find it.
6 A. I'm sorry, this is the cover page.
7 JUDGE NYAMBE: This is the cover page?
8 A. Yeah, this is the cover page. Yes, I'm referring to cover page,
9 it is in Cyrillic "Atlantida" written.
10 JUDGE NYAMBE: [Microphone not activated]
11 Okay. Sorry. All these individual pieces of paper in one of
12 these folders together form what we are referring to as the "Atlantida"
13 binder; is that correct?
14 A. Yes, it's correct.
15 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you very much for your answers.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic, Mr. Tolimir, do you want to see this
17 collection as well?
18 It should be transferred.
19 Mr. Blaszczyk, I have an additional question and I would like to
20 take you back, and this has something to do with this binder as well, to
21 your evidence of yesterday at page 31, lines 14 through 19 of the
22 transcript of yesterday. You said, and I quote:
23 "I can exclude that this document was added to this collection in
24 Zagreb, Banja Luka, since the entire collection was in the possession of
25 the ICTY. I can exclude this possibility 100 per cent sure. Everything
1 is possible that it was added sometime later, but I don't think so why it
2 should be done in this way. But physically it is possible because we had
3 no control of this documentation at that time."
4 I have -- I found the impression that there is a certain
5 contradiction. Could you explain your answer of yesterday.
6 A. Yes, of course, Your Honour. I made mistake here, of course.
7 Before we received this collection, it was possible that somebody could
8 put whatever binder or any document in this collection because we had no
9 control on this collection; but since we got this collection in Zagreb
10 and later on in The Hague, nobody could add or redact anything from this
11 collection. I am 100 per cent sure.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That means the relevant sentence should read as
13 follows: Everything is possible that we -- that it was added sometime
15 A. Yes, correct.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you --
17 A. It should be correct.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
19 Mr. Blaszczyk, I think you will be pleased to hear that this
20 concludes your examination --
21 THE WITNESS: I am.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- and the questioning put to you. Thank you
23 very much for your attendance here in this courtroom again, and you are
24 free now to return to your normal professional activities. Thank you
25 very much again.
1 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And now you may leave the courtroom because we
3 have to deal with some matters with documents, I think.
4 [The witness withdrew]
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, my first question is: Did you notify
6 the Defence about the documents you were using during re-examination?
7 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I did not notify the Defence about my
8 re-examination documents. It's something that I had to put together very
9 quickly, as you may recall, yesterday during breaks and, frankly, I was
10 still preparing late into the night last night. So I simply did not have
11 an opportunity to put any list together. If -- my practice is certainly
12 if there's something that's never been seen before or something that's
13 going to come out of the blue, I will make particular effort to get that
14 to the Defence ahead of time so they know it's coming, and we'll continue
15 to do that.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Microphone not activated] ... follow your
17 position. Especially with this witness and this re-examination, you had
18 the opportunity after preparing the continuation of the re-examination,
19 even it was perhaps last night, late in the night. It should have been
20 possible to notify the Defence.
21 MR. THAYER: If the Court wishes that to be our practice, we will
22 adopt that practice forthwith, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It was already the practice as you did it with
24 the witness Ruez. I think there was several instances you did that if
25 you wanted to -- especially if you wanted to use new documents to
1 challenge the cross-examination. The Chamber would appreciate that.
2 Now I would like to come back to the list of different documents
3 we haven't received yet. There were so many we have marked for
4 identification, and if I look at the transcript of the 27th of April this
5 year, the -- when the witness was the first time here in the trial, we
6 had some problems with your motion to -- and your tendering the
7 documents. Therefore, we have a long list of documents marked for
8 identification and you are still tendering them.
9 MR. THAYER: Yes, Mr. President. That is P121 up through P154.
10 And I believe that P120, which was the map marked by Mr. Blaszczyk, has
11 already been tendered. So the rest are 121 through 154, and I don't
12 think there are any gaps in that series of exhibits.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: They all will be received with the given numbers
14 by the Registry, and I think they all have a translation.
15 MR. THAYER: And, Mr. President, as for the documents used in
16 redirect, 410 and 411 are already in evidence. 765, which is the third
17 intercept from the 21st Division notebook, was technically recently
18 admitted via the Trial Chamber's decision on the 92 bis motion because
19 this intercept operator who took that intercept was one of the proposed
20 92 bis witnesses. So I think it's probably just better to sit on that
21 and wait until that comes in through the 92 bis process of uploading and
22 everything. That was Witness number 106.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which document are you referring to at the
24 moment? Can you --
25 MR. THAYER: That was 65 ter number 765, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Okay. We leave it for a later stage.
2 And what about the 65 ter 2100 you used today?
3 MR. THAYER: Yes, we would tender that, Mr. President, at this
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P655.
7 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, I was told that the document just
9 received, P145 through P152, have no translation. Do you intend to
10 provide the Chamber with a translation?
11 MR. THAYER: Yes, Mr. President. We'll take a look, see if we've
12 got one that hasn't surfaced for some reason, and if not, we'll submit it
13 and get those to the Trial Chamber and Registry a.s.a.p.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
15 The documents P145, P147, P148, P149, P151, and P5 -- P152 will
16 be marked for identification pending translation.
17 Are there other matters related to this witness?
18 MR. THAYER: Not to this witness, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Then I have to deal with some other matters
20 related to exhibits. P15 and P16, both intercepts, have some
21 irregularities of the exhibit numbers. They are numbered with P15.1
22 through P15.5 and P16.1 through P16.5. The translations are not attached
23 to the documents but have a separate number, P15.2. Since these are
24 intercepts and the Registry has numbered all intercepts with A and B, for
25 instance, P15A instead of P15.1, the Chamber asks the Prosecution to
1 identify the correct translation for each document. The Registry would
2 then renumber them; mark them as exhibit if they have a translation; mark
3 them as MFI if they don't; and then file a memo on the record explaining
4 that. That was the first matter.
5 The second is related to P162D, also intercept document. It was
6 MFI'd. This intercept exhibit was admitted without translation. There
7 is now a translation available and this -- its MFI status can be changed
8 to an exhibit.
9 The third matter is related to documents tendered by the accused,
10 D2, D21, and D31. They are all MFI'd pending translation. We have
11 received now translations, thus they can be admitted as exhibits.
12 I see Mr. Gajic is in agreement with that.
13 And the last matter is Exhibit D15, it was given a wrong 65 ter
14 number. Would you, Mr. Gajic, correct that?
15 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, Your Honours. The
16 correct 65 ter number of this document is 1D58.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
18 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: There's another document, P162C, that has no
20 translation and it will be -- only be marked for identification pending
22 I hope we have now solved all problems with exhibit numbers.
23 Mr. Thayer.
24 MR. THAYER: Just three administrative or housekeeping matters,
25 Mr. President. The first is I just wanted to note while we're on --
1 fresh on the topic, we do have this motion to add a witness to the 65 ter
2 list. And I won't -- it's a confidential motion so I won't say anything
3 further, but again we may need to apply to the Trial Chamber should the
4 Chamber grant the motion for a production order to get this reluctant
5 individual here. So I just want to put that on the horizon for sometime
6 after the recess.
7 The second item is we understand the issue with, for example, P15
8 and 16 that Your Honour spoke about at the beginning. That's obviously a
9 vestige of the old numbering system, and particularly as it relates to
10 the 92 bis decision, we're going to need to convert all those, run them
11 through the new machine, and pop out the new numbers. That is going to
12 take some time and effort for the team to go through each of those
13 packages and do that.
14 I note that in the Trial Chamber's decision there's a 30-day
15 dead-line for a number of actions that we are required to take. Given
16 that we're on the cusp of the summer recess and particularly given the
17 amount of work that's going to be required for each of those witnesses,
18 to identify every exhibit that was not only admitted through the witness
19 but shown to the witness; not admitted through the witness, shown to the
20 witness; admitted through another witness, all our fun categories, that's
21 going to take a significant amount of time, certainly more than 30 days,
22 particularly with the summer recess upon us. So we would ask for at
23 least another 30 days to complete that project because it is a
24 substantial project to have to go through each of those witnesses. It
25 requires going through all their testimony page by page to make sure
1 we're not missing any exhibits. Basically it means compiling all those
2 witness exhibit lists now, so -- and that is -- it is a tremendous time
3 investment for us per witness. So we would ask for at least another
4 30 days to complete that project.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, do you want to comment on that?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no comments
7 about these things. Thank you.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, we will consider your motion and come
9 back to that on Monday.
10 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Lastly, I just wanted to alert the Trial Chamber to one
12 exhibit-related issue for the upcoming witness on Monday,
13 General Nicolai. He will follow an intercept operator who I think will
14 be somewhat brief, but we will hear from General Nicolai starting on
15 Monday, and I think we're all in agreement that General Nicolai will be
16 on the stand for some time. We've already arranged for him to come back
17 and be available the first day we're all back in court after the recess.
18 The Court may be aware that there have been recent searches
19 conducted by the Serbian authorities of residences and other locations
20 related to its ongoing search for Ratko Mladic. That material has been
21 disclosed to us from the Serbian authorities. We are in the process of
22 processing all of it and trying to get it in a disclosable form to the
23 Defence. Part of that material, we have learned, are cassette recordings
24 that apparently were done by either General Mladic or somebody close to
25 him of conversations involving various Main Staff officers and in some
1 cases UNPROFOR officers, including General Nicolai. What we have tried
2 to do is expedite the transcription of those cassette recordings --
3 actually, we've tried to expedite first the digitisation of those
4 cassette recordings so that we can put them in a format that can be
5 disclosed to the Defence and we've tried very hard to get that done as
6 soon as possible, particularly given General Nicolai's upcoming
7 testimony. Some of these conversations are between General Nicolai and
8 General Tolimir. So we have expedited the transcription process,
9 literally writing out transcripts from those cassettes.
10 We've just disclosed the B/C/S version because we start off with
11 the original language to the accused. We finally got those done
12 yesterday, they've gone over. I should have the English translations of
13 those by the end of today, and as soon as I get them they'll go over.
14 I've not seen them. I don't know what they look like. There are five of
15 them. I think they're very short. But the most important thing is that,
16 from what we can tell, is they relate -- they're the same conversations
17 as were intercepted by some of the intercept operators you've heard from
18 which are already part of General Nicolai's exhibit list.
19 So what we have on General Nicolai's exhibit list are various
20 intercepts in which he was a participant. We have the UN notes of those
21 conversations. You've seen some examples of those through Colonel Fortin
22 when he was taking notes. Now what we have appears to be General Mladic
23 of the Main Staff's own recordings of those conversations so we can hear
24 in some cases a side of the conversation that we couldn't hear in the
25 intercept. You may recall General Tolimir referring to some monologues
1 where you only heard one side of the conversation. Now we've got
2 cassettes that we believe will dovetail with some of the intercepts that
3 are already on General Nicolai's list.
4 All of that to say the new cassette material doesn't have a
5 65 ter number, so it's not on our 65 ter list. But what we propose to
6 do, which is what we've done in other cases where we have audio-tapes of
7 conversations, is simply make that part of the consolidated intercept
8 exhibit. By that I mean we have the notebook if there was a notebook,
9 print-out, audio-tape, and then transcript of the audio-tape. The system
10 we're using now is that all four of those related exhibits come under one
11 65 ter number. So what we propose to do is when we get these documents
12 in an uploadable form is to enter those under the existing 65 ter number
13 for that intercept.
14 So I just wanted to alert the Trial Chamber to that ahead of
15 time, and I'll liaise with the Defence on that over the weekend before
16 General Nicolai testifies.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for this information. This is very
18 helpful and, indeed, you should contact the Defence and liaise with the
19 Defence on the best way to -- of disclosure and to deal with these
20 different documents and cassettes.
21 Are there any other housekeeping matters for today? This is not
22 the case, then we adjourn and resume on Monday, in the afternoon, 2.15,
23 in Courtroom I.
24 We adjourn.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.57 a.m.,
1 to be reconvened on Monday, the 12th day of
2 July, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.