100709IT

Page 3740

1 Friday, 9 July 2010

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning to everybody in the courtroom.

6 The witness should be brought in.

7 [The witness takes the stand]

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning. Please sit down.

9 I would like to remind you that the affirmation to tell the truth

10 still applies, and Mr. Thayer has some more for questions for you.

11 Mr. Thayer, please.

12 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning to you and

13 Your Honours. Good morning, General Tolimir, Mr. Gajic. Good morning,

14 everyone.

15 WITNESS: TOMASZ BLASZCZYK [Resumed]

16 Re-examination by Mr. Thayer: [Continued]

17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Blaszczyk.

18 A. Good morning, sir.

19 Q. I want to pick up where we left off yesterday and that was

20 concerning a radio telephone conversation between Colonel Savcic and

21 Major Malinic on the 13th of July, 1995, which Colonel Savcic testified

22 about in the Popovic case and during which he recalled that

23 General Tolimir was standing right next to Colonel Savcic during that

24 conversation. You recall that just yesterday when we left off,

25 Mr. Blaszczyk?

Page 3741

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. THAYER: May we have 1D118 on e-court, please. That's

3 Colonel Savcic's testimony in the Popovic case. And if we could go to

4 page 22, please.

5 Q. Okay. As we can see at transcript page 15252 in the Popovic case

6 and then again, just for the record, a couple of pages later at 15254,

7 line 19, Colonel Savcic testified that the conversation we were speaking

8 about yesterday was actually the second conversation which he had with

9 Major Malinic that day, 13 July. And in the first conversation - and

10 again for the record this is at transcript 15249 of the Popovic

11 testimony - in that first conversation sometime in the early morning

12 hours Colonel Savcic testified that Major Malinic described only three

13 Muslims surrendering; but by the second conversation, the one he said

14 General Tolimir was present for, Major Malinic told Colonel Savcic that

15 the situation had become much more complex and that there were so many

16 Muslims surrendering that he didn't have enough soldiers to guard them.

17 Do you recall the gist of that testimony by Colonel Savcic in the

18 Popovic case, sir?

19 A. Yes, I do now.

20 Q. And just remind us again, what was Major Malinic's position in

21 July 1995?

22 A. Major Malinic was the commander of the military battalion of the

23 65th Motorised Protection Regiment.

24 MR. THAYER: And if we could go to page 26 in e-court, please;

25 this is page 15256 in the transcript in Popovic.

Page 3742

1 Q. And when you say "military battalion of the 65th Motorised

2 Protection Regiment," do you mean to say the military police battalion,

3 sir?

4 A. Yes, correct. It's military police battalion.

5 Q. Now, when we look at page 26 here in e-court we can see that

6 Colonel Savcic is testifying about this change in situation by the

7 increase of the prisoners and that it was this changed circumstance that

8 General Tolimir was present for during the discussion. This was the

9 nature of the discussion that General Tolimir was present for.

10 Now, yesterday at transcript page 3698 at line 9, General Tolimir

11 quoted the following to you from Colonel Savcic's Popovic testimony. And

12 he quoted from page 15263.

13 MR. THAYER: And if we could go to page 33 in e-court, we'll just

14 pop that up again.

15 Q. He quoted a lengthy passage and then -- and this is all referring

16 to P125, the document that we've been spending so much time on. And I'll

17 just refer to that as the Borike memo, the memo that Danko Gojkovic

18 testified about that refers to the thousand prisoners at Kasaba.

19 And we see here at line 3 - and this is the last line that

20 General Tolimir quoted to you yesterday - he quoted General Savcic here.

21 "All I can say is that this document was never received by the

22 military police commander ..."

23 Again, that's a reference to P125. And General Tolimir ended the

24 quote there. Now, I don't think there's any dispute that this military

25 police commander that this refers to here is Major Malinic. And I'm sure

Page 3743

1 that if General Tolimir disagrees he'll let us know.

2 Now, let's look at some more of General Savcic's testimony which

3 General Tolimir didn't quote to you yesterday, and let's look at the very

4 next line, line 9, where General Savcic, if there were any doubt, says:

5 I have -- "I base that on the statement by Major Malinic."

6 So in that portion that General Tolimir quoted to you, "all I can

7 say is that this document was never received by the military police

8 commander ..." it may seem obvious, sir, but is that referring to

9 Major Malinic allegedly never receiving the document?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, if we go down to line 12, and this is another portion that

12 General Tolimir didn't quote to you yesterday, we see that Colonel Savcic

13 is basing his claim that Major Malinic allegedly never received the

14 telegram, not on any conversation he had with Major Malinic in

15 July of 1995 or at any time in 1995, but on a single conversation he had

16 with Malinic sometime after General Savcic's OTP interview.

17 Do you see that, sir?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. Do you know off the top of your head when in 2005 General Savcic

20 was interviewed by the OTP?

21 A. No, I don't remember. I remember the year, it was 2005, but I

22 don't remember the month.

23 Q. Okay. Well, you can take my word for it that it was in

24 October 2005, and if General Tolimir disagrees, I'm sure he'll let us

25 know about that as well.

Page 3744

1 Now, do you recall yesterday when General Tolimir quoted to you

2 from General Savcic's testimony and I objected that he was being

3 selective in his quotations.

4 Do you remember that yesterday?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. Okay. And in fact at transcript page 3700 yesterday

7 General Tolimir claimed, and I quote:

8 "I haven't read anything about Major Malinic ..."

9 Do you remember him saying that to the Trial Chamber yesterday?

10 A. Yes, he says that.

11 Q. Now, despite not quoting any of these portions to you,

12 General Tolimir repeated yesterday - and this is at transcript page 3703,

13 line 9, that's three pages after claiming that he didn't read anything

14 about Major Malinic - General Tolimir repeated, and I quote:

15 "Does Savcic claim in his testimony that the commander of the

16 military police never received this document?"

17 Do you remember that from yesterday?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. Okay. And you answered at line 12 that, and I quote:

20 "I think he says also that he never discussed the contents of

21 this document or whatever, the order, you know, with the commander of the

22 military battalion of the 65th Protection Regiment, if I correctly

23 remember the transcript."

24 MR. THAYER: Now can we go to the next page in e-court, please,

25 and this is transcript page 15264 of Colonel Savcic's Popovic testimony,

Page 3745

1 page 34 in e-court. And this was --

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Microphone not activated]

3 Continue, and then Mr. Tolimir before the witness answers.

4 Mr. Tolimir.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I welcome everybody

8 present and may God protect you and may God's will be done. May the

9 outcome be as God wishes and not as I wish.

10 If Mr. Thayer is quoting me, what I said for the transcript, then

11 he should quote me saying that the commander of the battalion, without

12 mentioning his name, never received this telegram or acted upon it which

13 is very important. He didn't act upon the telegram because he never

14 received it. But Mr. Thayer doesn't want to say so, doesn't want to say

15 how it was in the transcript. He is putting it totally differently and

16 he is reproducing my words his own way. Please consider this, because

17 what I said for the transcript yesterday should be reproduced fairly and

18 accurately. Thank you.

19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.

20 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I think even the briefest reading of

21 the transcript will show that I am simply quoting verbatim what

22 General Tolimir told this Trial Chamber yesterday. And if he's got any

23 cites to the record to the contrary, then I'm sure he will let us know.

24 If I may continue with my examination, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just to avoid any misunderstanding, can you again

Page 3746

1 give us the -- I think you did it already. But where is the reference

2 from what Mr. Tolimir was saying yesterday?

3 MR. THAYER: There are a couple of references, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Only the last one.

5 MR. THAYER: The first one was at 3700, where he claimed that "I

6 haven't read anything about Major Malinic," that was at transcript

7 page 3700. Then he repeated again at 3703, line 9:

8 "Does Savcic claim in his testimony that the commander of the

9 military police never received this document?"

10 And I've already cited to the witness the portion that

11 General Tolimir claims I did not do, which was his selective reading of

12 General Savcic's testimony yesterday which ended with the question

13 about -- or the allegation that Major Malinic never received this order.

14 I went through all that with the witness about five minutes ago.

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please carry on, Mr. Thayer.

16 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir -- just a moment.

18 Mr. Tolimir.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I said that I was

20 misquoted by the Prosecutor because what had been interpreted to me is

21 something that I said at the end. The sentence was that the commander of

22 the battalion never received the telegram or act upon it which is very

23 important because these were important activities. And now this element

24 of acting upon it is now being left out. Look at what I said yesterday

25 when I finished reading out what my advisor, what my consultant,

Page 3747

1 translated to me, especially the last sentence. That must be borne in

2 mind because acting is rather different from receiving something. Thank

3 you.

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, we have your position now on the

5 record. This is quite clear. And Mr. Thayer should continue his

6 re-examination.

7 Please carry on.

8 MR. THAYER:

9 Q. Now, if we look at page 15264, I want to focus on a portion I'd

10 wanted to show you yesterday, and that's when General Tolimir claimed

11 that Mr. Gajic hadn't given it to him because he doesn't read English.

12 Now -- actually, by the way, Mr. Blaszczyk, are you aware that the OTP

13 has furnished General Tolimir with the audio recordings of the Popovic

14 testimony in his own language?

15 A. Yes, I am.

16 Q. Now, if we look at line 13 on this page, Mr. Vanderpuye asked

17 Colonel Savcic if when he spoke with Major Malinic about the telegram,

18 did he discuss the specifics of it with Major Malinic in that single

19 conversation in 2005. And if we look at Colonel Savcic's response at

20 line 16, he says:

21 "No. To be honest, I didn't. The document was not available to

22 me. I didn't have it on me. Mr. McCloskey had shown it to me in

23 Banja Luka, and we had discussed this document. So I did not go into the

24 contents of the document. I just inquired about the existence of the

25 document. I asked him whether he remembered that he received a telegram

Page 3748

1 from me on the 13th of July. Since he said that he didn't, I really

2 didn't go into the details of the contents of the document. I just told

3 him that it referred to the treatment of prisoners of war. I really did

4 not try to retain the contents, bullet point by bullet point, so I could

5 not discuss the details with anybody."

6 Sir, is that the testimony you were referring to yesterday when

7 you said "if I correctly remember the transcript"? Is that the testimony

8 you were thinking about?

9 A. Yes, yes.

10 Q. Now, I want to spend a little bit more time talking about how

11 you, as an investigator, authenticated this document, P125. We looked at

12 three intercepts yesterday. And to save time I didn't put up the

13 print-outs, but we've got all morning, so I'm not going to use that as an

14 invitation to waste time but I want to show the print-outs now that we

15 have the opportunity.

16 MR. THAYER: May we see P410B, please. And this is under seal,

17 Mr. President.

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will not be broadcast.

19 MR. THAYER:

20 Q. Okay. Looking at the original B/C/S on the left-hand screen,

21 sir, do you see a date of this intercept report?

22 A. Yes, I do. This is on the left-hand corner. There is the date

23 of the report, the date 13 July 1995.

24 Q. Okay. Now, what is the time on the first intercept that you see

25 reported on there?

Page 3749

1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yesterday I objected

3 that in the re-examination questions were being put about which the

4 witness hasn't been asked either in the direct examination or in the

5 cross-examination. This witness has been brought here to tender the

6 Drina Corps documents through him, but now the Prosecutor is now

7 interpreting documents of the Federation through this witness. He is

8 trying to tender some conversations from transcripts made at a time after

9 the document was made. Can this be right if a conversation took place --

10 we saw two conversations yesterday, one at 1405, one at 1402. Can that

11 be a foundation for the contents of a telegram?

12 We're talking about the authenticity of a document. I don't know

13 whether Mr. Thayer is saying that Savcic was at Borike and whether I was

14 invited there to hear the conversation. Is that what he's trying to put

15 to you? If so, then he must get Savcic here and not this witness who

16 isn't an expert for transcripts. I haven't discussed the contents of any

17 document with him, only the authenticity. I didn't want to embarrass

18 him.

19 In the first cross-examination he said that he found the document

20 as it was in the archives of the Drina Corps; but yesterday he said that

21 he received it from Colonel Acimovic. Yesterday he said that since they

22 left to Gornji Milanovac, the documents were never in the possession of

23 its users again, but that they went to the MUP and from the MUP to the

24 Ministry of Defence and from there to Zagreb, and that the documents were

25 under the control of the Tribunal. I don't want to embarrass anybody. I

Page 3750

1 didn't want to point that out because I didn't mind. I didn't want to

2 embarrass the witness. But please consider that this re-examination

3 should not try to turn this witness into something else. Because he

4 seems to be becoming an expert for all sorts of things, maybe even the

5 air force.

6 I only discussed the authenticity of the documents, about the

7 fact that Savcic was not at the command post at Borike. And if the

8 Prosecutor's arguing the contrary, then he must show documents to support

9 his claims. The more so since this is a witness who worked for the

10 Prosecution. And now it is easy to construe things. How does he know

11 about transcripts and conversations now? I only spoke about the

12 Drina Corps with him, the documents of that corps. Thank you.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. We -- the Chamber understood your

14 point.

15 Mr. Thayer.

16 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, General Tolimir well knows the

17 importance of authenticating the Drina Corps collection documents to this

18 case, and he clearly well knows the critical importance of P125 to

19 establishing his guilt in this case. Had he not known, he wouldn't have

20 spent so much time challenging the authenticity of that document by

21 talking about teleprinters, talking about Danko Gojkovic's testimony,

22 trotting out Colonel Savcic's testimony to you, all in an effort,

23 knowingly and well planned and as is his right and as we expected, to

24 challenge the Prosecution's evidence and the authenticity of its

25 documents, in particular the Borike memo.

Page 3751

1 Now, in terms of the immediate issue, this document, yesterday

2 when we reviewed those intercepts General Tolimir specifically objected

3 that there was no date on them. And what I am doing now is simply going

4 through what we can all see, which is the dates. I plan to just go

5 through these two intercepts with the notebooks so that the Trial Chamber

6 can see the dates, in specific response to General Tolimir's objection

7 that he didn't see any date on the notebooks.

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, Mr. Thayer, the view -- my view, the

9 Prosecution's now challenging your content of the cross-examination.

10 This is the right of a party during re-examination, but it is up to the

11 Chamber to give weight to the content. At the moment we understand the

12 Prosecution as going through evidence related to P125. And we will see

13 what is it about, and I think Mr. Thayer should carry on.

14 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

15 Q. Now, sir, can you just note for the record what the time is on

16 this first intercept.

17 A. This is 1300 hours and 55 minutes.

18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would kindly ask

20 the Prosecutor, here in this cross-examination, not to speak about the

21 intentions of the Defence and not to interpret them while he's

22 questioning the witness. He can do that for the Trial Chamber or at a --

23 with joint agreement of the parties, that's one thing.

24 The second thing is he says Tolimir is guilty; you can see that

25 from this document. He has to specify the type of guilt. This is a

Page 3752

1 document that was created five minutes before the one at Borike. This is

2 a document that Tolimir did not take part in the drafting of, does not

3 know about it -- did not know about it until now. So could he please be

4 a bit more specific about the types of charges here. I would like to be

5 protected from some kind of arbitrary formulations that are being stated

6 here, and this witness is not really competent to discuss these

7 particular matters. Thank you.

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, to avoid any misunderstanding,

9 Mr. Thayer, in my view, didn't say that you are guilty. It has something

10 to do with the question if guilt can be established during this trial,

11 and this is quite different. And therefore I think you must not be --

12 have any concern about the protection of your rights. You have rights

13 pursuant to the Rules of Procedure and Evidence of this Tribunal and you

14 used quite a lot of time during cross-examination - this is your

15 right - and this is not in any way challenged by the Prosecution.

16 Now the Prosecution is challenging the content of your

17 cross-examination; this is the right of the Prosecution during

18 re-examination. I think your position is very clear. Now we would like

19 to know what is the position of the Prosecution during the continuation

20 of the re-examination.

21 Mr. Thayer, please continue --

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please --

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think, Mr. Tolimir, it's not the best way just

24 to continue this debate, this discussion, about these topics. Your

25 position is very clear, Mr. Tolimir.

Page 3753

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Well, that is your

2 decision.

3 MR. THAYER: May we ...

4 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

5 MR. THAYER: Is it okay to continue, Mr. President?

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, please.

7 MR. THAYER: Okay.

8 May we go forward two pages in the original and stay where we are

9 on the English, please.

10 Q. Okay. Can you tell us what the time is on the intercept that's

11 on the left, sir.

12 A. 1400 hours.

13 Q. Okay. And can you tell -- well, I'll just leave it there. Okay.

14 So we've got an intercept, 1400 hours. This is the one that we looked at

15 yesterday on the right; is that correct, sir?

16 A. Yes, this is correct.

17 Q. Okay. Now, let's do the same exercise with P411.

18 MR. THAYER: And that's 411B, please, the print-out. And this is

19 also under seal. Okay.

20 Q. And on the left do you see the original intercept report, sir;

21 and if you do, can you tell us what the date is?

22 A. Yes, I see the date of this report is 13th July 1995.

23 Q. Okay. And can you tell us what the time is on the first

24 intercept.

25 A. The time from the first intercept is 1300 hours, 55 minutes,

Page 3754

1 five minutes to 2.00.

2 Q. Okay. And is this, in fact, the same print-out that we just

3 looked at a second ago which contains a number of intercepts?

4 A. Yes, this is correct.

5 Q. Okay.

6 MR. THAYER: So let's go to three more pages in the original and

7 stay on the English translation -- I'm sorry, one page back in the

8 original. Okay.

9 Q. Do we see the intercept at 1400 hours?

10 A. Yes, I do.

11 Q. And is that the one you just identified with the last exhibit?

12 A. Yes, it's correct.

13 MR. THAYER: Okay. If we could scroll down a little bit.

14 Q. Do you see an intercept at 1405?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. Okay. And does this intercept correspond to the one we saw

17 yesterday in the notebook?

18 A. Yes, we saw this intercept yesterday. We discussed this

19 intercept yesterday.

20 Q. Okay. I want to talk a little bit about the third intercept that

21 we saw yesterday.

22 MR. THAYER: May we have 65 ter number 765 on the screen, and

23 this is the notebook of the 3rd.

24 Q. Okay. You remember this notebook entry from yesterday, sir?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 3755

1 Q. Okay. Now, the Trial Chamber has heard testimony that there were

2 three units working as intercept operators at one of the locations, the

3 northern one. Those units were the 2nd Corps, the MUP, and the

4 21st Division. Are you familiar with that, sir?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. And I think we can probably all recite in our sleep the testimony

7 that we heard over and over again from the ABiH 2nd Corps intercept

8 operators who testified about writing all their intercepts in the

9 notebooks but not writing the dates in the notebooks because they knew

10 that the typist cryptographer was going to enter the date in the

11 notebook. Are you familiar with all that testimony, sir?

12 A. Yes, I do.

13 Q. Okay. Now, yesterday the Trial Chamber heard, I believe, from

14 the first 21st Division intercept operator witness, and if my memory

15 serves, he said that in their notebooks, the 21st Division operators

16 noted the date in the notebook every day. Are you familiar with that,

17 sir?

18 A. I don't remember, but possibly.

19 Q. Okay. Well, let's look at the notebook that this notebook on the

20 screen came out of, and I've got the original here.

21 MR. THAYER: And if we may have 65 ter 1670 on e-court, please.

22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.

23 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I have

24 an objection because this was also not a part of the examination-in-chief

25 or the cross-examination, and now we're talking about this in the

Page 3756

1 redirect. Thank you.

2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.

3 MR. THAYER: Again, Mr. President, General Tolimir objected

4 yesterday that he didn't see any dates connected with the intercepts, and

5 what I am doing now is showing the witness a notebook in which I think

6 that question will be clearly answered.

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. Please carry on.

8 Mr. Tolimir.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. Mr. Thayer asked the

10 witness if he recalled the conversation. He said "I do," as if he were

11 the one who intercepted it. So it's not the date and the time; we're

12 talking about the contents here. That is the essence of my objection.

13 Thank you.

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The question was: "Are you familiar with all

15 that testimony, sir?"

16 And the answer is: "Yes, I do."

17 This is page 16, line 3 and 4. This is quite different from what

18 you stated just now.

19 Please carry on, Mr. Thayer.

20 MR. THAYER: Okay. Thank you, Mr. President. We're having a

21 little bit of an e-court glitch at the moment. I think we'll -- what we

22 can do is do this the old-fashioned way and use the ELMO as a backup here

23 because we've got the wrong exhibit on e-court, but we've got the

24 original here for everybody to see.

25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Court Usher will assist you.

Page 3757

1 MR. THAYER: We need to zoom out a little bit, if we could, so we

2 catch the cover. Okay.

3 For the record, we have a notebook with the ERN 0078-1141 on the

4 cover.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is the witness in a position to have it on the

6 screen as well?

7 THE WITNESS: No, I don't have it on the screen, but I have the

8 original here.

9 MR. THAYER:

10 Q. If you'd -- you might have to twist around a little bit,

11 Mr. Blaszczyk, but if you can work with the original.

12 A. Yes, I got it.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

14 MR. THAYER:

15 Q. There are two dates towards the top of the notebook here.

16 They're kind of hard to see on the ELMO. Can you read out what those

17 dates there, and if there are words next to them that you can read and

18 interpret for us, please do; if you can't, then just give us the dates

19 that you see at the top of the notebook.

20 A. May I use the original?

21 Q. Yeah, just pick up the original and feel free to just read

22 the ...

23 A. There are two dates. The first date is when the book was opened,

24 in fact; it's 29 June 1995. And the date when "zatvoren," which means

25 "closed," the book was closed, 23 July 1995.

Page 3758

1 Q. Okay. Now, if we could open up that notebook, please, and go to

2 the first page with writing on it. Okay. And for the record this is

3 ERN 0078-1143. Okay. Do we see any date on this page, sir?

4 A. No, I don't see a date here. I see a time.

5 Q. Okay. If we could flip a couple pages, and if you want to just

6 do it slowly, we'll go to the next page, 1143 to 1144, 1145, if you can

7 slide it over so we can just see 1144 first. Perfect. Thank you. We

8 don't see any dates there. 1145. Now if we can look at 1146, do you see

9 any dates there? 1147. Next page, 1148. And then how about the next

10 page, 1149.

11 A. This page is visible date, 30 June 1995, Friday.

12 Q. Okay. If you could scoot the book over just a little bit so we

13 can see the ERN on that page. Okay. So you said the cover of the book

14 had a date of 29 June 1995, when you said the book was opened, and now

15 here we have the first date of 30 June 1995.

16 Now, can you flip to the page that we saw a few minutes ago on

17 the screen in the notebook, and that's the ERN 0078-1236. Can you just

18 find that page, sir. Okay. And is this the intercept notebook page that

19 we saw a few minutes ago with the time of 1602 hours, sir?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. Okay. Is there a date on this page?

22 A. No, I don't see any date here.

23 Q. Okay.

24 A. I see a time.

25 Q. Then let's work backwards and see if we can find a date for this

Page 3759

1 notebook. Can you turn back to 1235. Okay. Do you see a date there,

2 sir?

3 A. Yeah, in the previous page is date 13 July 1995, first day.

4 Q. And is there a time for that first intercept there?

5 A. Yes, the time is 0800 hours and 08, eight minutes past 8.00, if I

6 see correctly.

7 Q. Okay. Thank you, sir.

8 MR. THAYER: We're done with this exhibit.

9 Mr. President, I thought that we had a 65 ter number which is

10 what we tried to put up on the screen, but it turns out that's connected

11 to apparently a different notebook. So I'm not sure if we have a

12 65 ter number for this entire notebook. We certainly had a 65 ter number

13 for the intercept that came out of it. We'll explore that with you and

14 we may have to come back and just provide a 65 ter number and apply to

15 add that to the list.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think in this case we have to deal with a lot

17 of problems with numbers and MFI'd documents, and so on. But please

18 carry on.

19 MR. THAYER: Okay. Thank you, Mr. President.

20 Q. We're done with that, Mr. Blaszczyk. Thank you.

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the document at

23 1602, can that be the basis to prove the authenticity of the document?

24 Well, Mr. Thayer can say whether that can be used for the document which

25 was created at 1406, and was there a command post there, was

Page 3760

1 General Savcic there, was Tolimir there, was he a participant in one of

2 those conversations? Can we clarify this with the witness because it is

3 also within the context of the testimony. Thank you.

4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.

5 MR. THAYER: General Tolimir well knows what the context of this

6 testimony is and the purpose for which these intercepts are being shown.

7 And I'm going to turn directly now to P125, the Borike memo to continue

8 showing how this document was authenticated by Mr. Blaszczyk in the

9 investigation, which lay at the heart of General Tolimir's

10 cross-examination.

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: First, is it possible to show the original

12 notebook to the accused and to the Chamber, please.

13 Secondly, Mr. Tolimir, the Chamber is at this stage not in a

14 position to say anything about authenticity of the document. We just

15 listen and we review all the evidence, the documentary evidence, and the

16 testimony of witnesses at a later stage. There's no comment on that at

17 the moment. We just receive evidence.

18 Wait a moment, please, Mr. Thayer. We would like to have a look

19 at the document.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May this document be given to the accused and

22 Mr. Gajic.

23 Mr. Tolimir.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President. I don't want to

25 look at this document. I'm not the participant in the document. I'm

Page 3761

1 talking about the document 525 that we can see on the screen. I

2 contested its authenticity. There's a possibility that it just found its

3 way there or that somebody planted it there because there is nothing else

4 other than the copy of this document. This is what I would like to say

5 about the document with the number 525. Thank you.

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. But it is P125, what we have on the

7 screen now, not 525.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, for

9 correcting me. Yes, this is P125. Thank you.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

11 Mr. Thayer, please carry on.

12 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 Q. Now, let's take a look at the -- towards the top of this Borike

14 document. We see that it's headed "Procedure for treatment of prisoners

15 of war," and I think we've been through this before, but it never hurts

16 to repeat. Can you tell us who the actual officers are by name that are

17 referred to in the recipient portion where it says "to." And let's just

18 start first with the commander of the VRS Main Staff. July 1995, who's

19 that?

20 A. The commander of the Main Staff of Republika Srpska army in

21 July 1995 was General Mladic, Ratko Mladic. Assistant commander for

22 morale, religious, and legal affairs of the Main Staff of VRS was

23 General Gvero. And commander of the military police battalion of the

24 65th Motorised Protection Regiment was Major Malinic.

25 Q. And then we see that this is captioned as an "order." Do you see

Page 3762

1 that, sir?

2 A. Yes, I do.

3 Q. Okay. Now, we spent some time looking at evidence concerning

4 these thousand -- over a thousand Muslim soldiers that are referred to in

5 the first line of this document. That's why we went through all the

6 intercepts and everything else thus far. Let's look at where it says:

7 "Assistant commander for security and intelligence affairs of the

8 VRS Main Staff proposes the following measures ..."

9 Let's look at proposed measure number 1. Do you see where it

10 says that:

11 "Prohibit access to unauthorised individuals, filming and

12 photographing of prisoners."

13 A. Yes, it's written here.

14 Q. Based on your investigation, Mr. Blaszczyk, what organs within

15 the VRS were responsible for guarding and escorting prisoners?

16 A. It was security organ of VRS, military police.

17 Q. And in July 1995 who was the chief of security within the VRS?

18 A. The chief of security and intelligence was General Tolimir, but

19 chief of security was Colonel Beara.

20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I object again

22 because all the combat documents, directives, orders, are being

23 misrepresented deliberate -- misrepresented here. And what is the idea

24 is to be imputing this assignment to somebody else. I don't know if this

25 witness is an expert, and then if he is an expert in these matters, he

Page 3763

1 can read the document and then explain what the term "to be responsible

2 for prisoners" means.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.

4 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I think the question was clear and it

5 was understood by the witness and we have his answer, and I would like to

6 move to the second line if I could.

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you raised an objection, but in fact

8 I don't understand that. What is the essence of your objection? I would

9 like to know that.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The gist

11 of my objection is that the -- Mr. Thayer has put a suggestive -- a

12 leading question to the witness, and he's saying this is put forward by

13 Tolimir. But if the investigator studied his matter well, he will know

14 that the assistant for logistics would be the one who is responsible for

15 the prisoners and not the chief of intelligence. So we're having an

16 erroneous answer here and erroneous conclusions are being drawn on the

17 basis of this document. So I would like the -- both conclusions and

18 everything else to rely strictly on what is said in the document. Thank

19 you.

20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer read out precisely what is written in

21 the document, and I haven't heard that he has said and put to the witness

22 that Mr. Tolimir was responsible for logistics. I haven't heard that.

23 Please carry on, Mr. Thayer.

24 MR. THAYER:

25 Q. Let's look at - thank you, Mr. President - proposed measure

Page 3764

1 number 2, where it says:

2 "Prohibit traffic for all United Nations vehicles ..." and then

3 it lays out a route.

4 Based on your investigations, sir, what organs within the VRS

5 were responsible for regulating traffic and setting up check-points?

6 A. It was military police of VRS under the command of security

7 branch.

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The security department never had

10 police in its ranks nor was it superior to the police. This is a plot of

11 the Prosecution to put responsibility on Tolimir because the security --

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir --

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- department is not responsible

14 for the police.

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, this is not a correct objection. We

16 receive answers from the witness and it is up to the Chamber at the end,

17 and you may then put your case to the Chamber, if we can believe it what

18 the witness says or not. He -- this witness is very clearly not an

19 eye-witness. He was not present when the war was going on. He is

20 testifying about the results and the way of his investigation. That's a

21 big difference. And it's up to the Chamber and the parties at the end of

22 the trial to find a solution. It's not appropriate now to comment every

23 answer of the witness.

24 Mr. Thayer, please carry on.

25 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 3765

1 Q. Let's look at proposed measure number 3 where it says that the:

2 "Commander of the military police battalion shall take measures

3 to remove war prisoners from the main Milici-Zvornik road, place them

4 somewhere indoors or in an area protected from observation from the

5 ground or air."

6 Now, we see that there's a reference to observation from the

7 ground or air. Is there any reference in this Borike memo to -- proposal

8 to protection from bombing?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did the Muslims, the Muslim army, have any combat aircraft based

11 on your investigation that you know of in July of 1995?

12 A. No, I don't know about it. I'm not aware about such forces.

13 Q. How about NATO? Did NATO have combat aircraft available in

14 July of 1995?

15 A. Yes, of course NATO had combat planes available.

16 Q. Now, focusing on this proposal here to place the prisoners out of

17 sight from being seen both -- not just from the air in a helicopter or

18 airplane but also from people on the ground, can you tell the

19 Trial Chamber based on your investigation where the prisoners who were

20 captured and gathered at Nova Kasaba were taken on the 13th of July?

21 A. Yes, the prisoners who were captured and kept at the beginning in

22 Nova Kasaba soccer field were taken to Bratunac in buses and trucks and

23 were kept at the school in Bratunac and also in the hangar behind the

24 school. We call this school Vuk Karadzic school in Bratunac.

25 Q. And how about the prisoners who were captured and collected and

Page 3766

1 gathered at the Sandici meadow on the 13th of July, where were they

2 taken, Mr. Blaszczyk?

3 A. The people who were guarded -- the Muslim prisoners who were

4 guarded at Sandici meadow were taken also to Kravica warehouse. This is

5 place located from Sandici about 900 metres, 1 kilometre.

6 Q. Now, how about the prisoners who, as you just testified, had been

7 held in Bratunac at the Vuk Karadzic school and in buses around the town

8 of Bratunac, where did they go?

9 A. After -- shortly after that, people were transported to the

10 Zvornik area, also to the -- mostly to the schools in the Zvornik area.

11 It was school Orahovac, Petkovci, Rocevic, Pilica.

12 Q. And, sir, did your investigation reveal any evidence that after

13 the 13th of July in the afternoon, when Danko Gojkovic typed this

14 document into the teleprinter and sent it out, that any large groups of

15 prisoners were left outside in the open?

16 A. I think the process of taking out prisoners from the open air was

17 still pending at that time. At 1400 hours the people were taken to

18 Kravica warehouse and Sandici meadow and then from soccer field in

19 Nova Kasaba to Bratunac.

20 Q. So my question is: After this Borike memo was sent out in the

21 afternoon, and we see on the original 1510 hours, after that memo went

22 out, this Borike proposal and order, did your investigation reveal any

23 evidence that groups of Muslim prisoners were left out in the open?

24 A. No. Most of the people were sent to, as I said, to Bratunac in

25 the houses -- I mean the school in Bratunac, and they were kept in the

Page 3767

1 buses in Kravica; small group also in the junction in Konjevic Polje.

2 Q. And based on your investigation, sir, approximately when did the

3 first large-scale mass executions of the prisoners that had been placed

4 out of sight in those various structures begin?

5 A. The first mass executions in large scale started in Kravica

6 warehouse, and this was on the 13th of July, 1995, in afternoon hours.

7 Q. And, sir, are you familiar with what Colonel Savcic said in his

8 OTP interview and his Popovic testimony about what this order to keep the

9 prisoners out of sight meant?

10 A. I think during his testimony he referred something to the

11 possible -- I don't remember, but of course it was in his explanation.

12 Q. Do you remember him saying, among other things, that he was

13 concerned that NATO might --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. -- bomb large groups of prisoners?

16 A. Yes, it was his words and it was -- for me this is unreliable.

17 Q. Do you remember him saying in the Popovic case that he thought it

18 might have something to do with the Geneva Conventions banning prisoners

19 from being exposed to public viewing by average people, do you remember

20 that?

21 A. Yes, yes, yes, I do remember.

22 Q. Let's look at line 4, which is proposed measure number 4.

23 "Once the commander of the military police battalion receives

24 this order, he shall contact General Miletic and receive from him

25 additional orders and verify if the proposal has been approved by the

Page 3768

1 commander of the VRS Main Staff."

2 Who or -- who -- I'm sorry. I'm sounding like an owl.

3 What was General Miletic's position in July of 1995?

4 A. In July of 1995 General Miletic was the assistant commander for

5 operation -- I mean assistant commander of the Main Staff of VRS.

6 Q. And when you say he was in the operations field, was he chief of

7 operations and training, sir?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Is that fair to say?

10 A. Yes, it's fair to say. This is his full title.

11 Q. So he's not actually an assistant commander; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, you're right, not assistant commander.

13 Q. Okay. I just wanted to make the record clear about that. Now,

14 did your investigation and your work with the Drina Corps collection

15 documents ever reveal any orders from anyone adopting any of these

16 proposals?

17 A. There are a lot of orders, but I don't know what you mean

18 exactly. Which order?

19 Q. Okay.

20 MR. THAYER: Let's look at 65 ter 2100, please. And this will be

21 the -- I think the last document we'll look at today.

22 Q. Okay, sir, I just want to give you a minute to look at this

23 document, re-familiarise yourself with it.

24 A. Yes, yes, yes, I remember this document. I think it was seized

25 also in the collection of -- for sure it was a Drina Corps collection

Page 3769

1 document.

2 MR. THAYER: And if we can go to page 2 of this order and we'll

3 see who it's from.

4 THE WITNESS: This is --

5 MR. THAYER: In the English, that is. Okay. Now, can we go back

6 to page 1 of the English.

7 Q. And we can see, if we're looking at the original version of this

8 order that it's type-signed, as we refer to it, by whom, sir?

9 A. This is Glavni Stab, Vojska Republika Srpska, this is Main Staff

10 of Army of Republika Srpska.

11 Q. And if we just look down at the very bottom.

12 A. Yes, we see the name of General Ratko Mladic.

13 Q. Okay. A little bit of typo problem there with the teleprinter;

14 is that fair to say?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. Okay.

17 MR. THAYER: I don't think there's any dispute that this order is

18 emanating -- originating from General Mladic.

19 Q. We see two initials or two letters, S. R., after General Mladic's

20 name there if we're looking at bottom of the original. What does "S. R."

21 stand for in your experience in this investigation?

22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We would like to have the end of the document in

23 English as well.

24 THE WITNESS: I did remember, but --

25 MR. THAYER:

Page 3770

1 Q. Okay. Let me try to help you. Have you ever heard that referred

2 to as "in his own hand" or "by own hand"?

3 A. Yes, yes, yes. Yes, but I don't know the words, the B/C/S words

4 of this expression.

5 Q. Okay. Well, we'll, I'm sure, hear more about that with other

6 witnesses. But does that indicate that General Mladic in the original

7 order personally signed and was present to sign the order? Is that what

8 the gist of that initial is, sir, those initials, S. R.?

9 A. Yes, yes, it means that it was done by him.

10 Q. Okay.

11 MR. THAYER: If we may have page 1 of the English back on

12 e-court, please. And if we could scroll up a little bit in the B/C/S --

13 actually, in both versions, sorry. Thank you. All right.

14 Q. And with the Usher's assistance I'd ask to hand up to you the

15 original of this from out of the Drina Corps collection. And if we can

16 hand it up to the Chamber and to General Tolimir, and I'll ask you a

17 question on it. And I would just draw your attention to the upper

18 right-hand corner of the document.

19 Do you see a signature?

20 A. Yes, I recognise this signature. This is Danko Gojkovic's

21 signature.

22 Q. And is that signature in original ink, sir?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And there's some writing and some numbers next to this signature.

25 What does that say? Can you tell the Trial Chamber.

Page 3771

1 A. This is in the top of -- above the signature there is the date,

2 13 July 1995. And word in B/C/S, in Cyrillic, "Primljeno" 2250 minutes.

3 "Primljeno," it means "received." And two letters below "-a/a." This is

4 sent to -- for archive.

5 Q. Thank you --

6 A. And confirming that this document was received by the Rogatica

7 Brigade below it's very visible right now, in the original, of course,

8 the stamp of the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade.

9 Q. Okay. And if we could just scroll down in the original so we can

10 have an idea of what you're talking about there. Okay. Are you

11 referring to the stamp that's in the middle at the very bottom of the

12 page, sir, where it says "komanda"?

13 A. Yes, I am referring to this stamp.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. In translation there is not -- not mentioned Podrinje Light

16 Infantry Brigade but -- 1st Light Infantry Brigade, but this is

17 Podrinje -- well known as Rogatica Brigade, of course.

18 Q. So the illegible word in the translation you can read in the

19 original, and what is that word?

20 A. This is "Podrinjska." It means Podrinje.

21 Q. Okay. And what brigade was Danko Gojkovic a teleprinter operator

22 in?

23 A. As was said here many times, he was a member of the 1st Podrinje

24 Light Infantry Brigade, so-called Rogatica Brigade member.

25 Q. Okay.

Page 3772

1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now I have to ask you not to overlap. You are

2 speaking in the same language and it is very difficult for the recorder

3 to follow your conversation.

4 THE WITNESS: My apologies.

5 MR. THAYER: My apologies as well, Mr. President.

6 Okay, if we could ask the Usher to pass that up, please.

7 Thank you, Mr. Usher.

8 Now, if we go back to page 1 of the translation and scroll up a

9 little bit in the original, please. All the way. There we go. Thank

10 you.

11 Q. Now we can -- if we look at the upper left-hand corner of this

12 document, we can see that this order emanates from the Main Staff of the

13 VRS, and there's the strictly confidential number that you spoke about

14 yesterday. And we see the -- we refer to them as ordinals 03/4. Based

15 on your experience, do you know whether those ordinals denote any

16 particular part of the VRS Main Staff?

17 A. I don't remember.

18 Q. Okay. Now, we can see that this is distributed to the commands

19 of the Drina Corps, the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment,

20 communications regiment, the sector for morale, religious, and legal

21 affairs, again, that's General Gvero; correct, sir?

22 A. Yes, it's correct.

23 Q. And a bunch of other brigades. And we see the final line

24 underlined "to the commander personally."

25 I want to go through some of the elements of this order.

Page 3773

1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I object. This has nothing to do

3 with Tolimir. The document isn't even registered as such. I don't know

4 what the foundation is for the -- for the assertion that I know about

5 this document because it wasn't even sent to me.

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, especially as you are using this

7 document in re-examination.

8 MR. THAYER: Yes, Mr. President. The issue of authenticating

9 P125, as we have seen, can be approached from a number of angles,

10 establishing whether it reflects accurately the events on the ground, as

11 we did with the intercepts and Mr. Blaszczyk's testimony about what he

12 learned from various witnesses himself pertaining to the situation on the

13 ground that was reflected in that document.

14 What this document is being used to show is that, in fact, those

15 proposed measures in P125 were acted upon by General Mladic, having

16 received that proposal. He was one of the recipients in the proposal's

17 "to" list as we saw a moment ago, as was General Gvero. And one of the

18 ways that we can further authenticate P125 is by showing that in fact it

19 was received and acted upon, and General Mladic issued an order based on

20 it, reflecting some of those proposals. And I intend to go through the

21 document and examine the elements which flow from P125.

22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If you restrict your questioning to those portion

23 and for that purpose, please carry on.

24 MR. THAYER:

25 Q. Now, if we look at paragraph 1, please, point 1 of this order, it

Page 3774

1 says:

2 "... prevent the entry of all uninvited individuals to the area

3 of combat operations in the general sector of Srebrenica and Zepa."

4 And, sir, how does that correspond, based on your work, your

5 investigation, your familiarity with P125, with any of the proposed

6 measures in P125, the Borike proposed order -- proposals and order?

7 A. This is continuation of the proposal from this Borike document.

8 MR. THAYER: And if we can, can we put in the English --

9 actually, let me consult with the expert here, with the Court's

10 indulgence.

11 [Prosecution counsel confer]

12 MR. THAYER: If we can, what I'd like to do is put the English

13 translation of P125 next to the English translation of 65 ter 2100. And

14 then -- and I will read the appropriate portions which then can get

15 translated into B/C/S.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And after that both documents could be shown on

17 the screen side by side in B/C/S. After that.

18 MR. THAYER: After that, sure.

19 Q. Okay. So you just told us that it corresponds to P125 and this

20 prohibiting access to all unauthorised -- I'm sorry, the preventing entry

21 of all uninvited individuals to the area of combat operations, what does

22 that correspond to in P125, sir?

23 A. It corresponds to the first point:

24 "Prohibit access to all unauthorised individuals, filming and

25 photographing of prisoners."

Page 3775

1 Q. And then we see in item 2, closing down -- I'm sorry, did you --

2 A. Yeah, and item 2 is:

3 "Until further notice, close the Konjevic Polje-Kravica-Bratunac

4 and Rogatica-Borike-Visegrad roads to traffic, except for the vehicles of

5 the VRS and MUP units engaged in combat operations."

6 It corresponds to point 2 from the Borike order:

7 "Prohibit traffic for all United Nations vehicles en route

8 Zvornik-Vlasenica until further notice ..."

9 And point 3 from the order of General Mladic:

10 "Set up roadblocks and check-points for the regulation and

11 control of traffic at the crossroads in Konjevic Polje and road leading

12 out of Bratunac towards Kravica and the Rogatica-Borike and

13 Visegrad-Borike roads."

14 As we see here on the Borike order, Borike document, it does

15 correspond to -- to the point, also 2, from Borike.

16 Q. And then again in item 4 of Mladic's order where he's preventing

17 the entry of all local and foreign journalists, except for those approved

18 by the VRS press centre, what proposal from the Borike proposal and order

19 does that correspond to?

20 A. As we see in the point 1 from this Borike document we see:

21 "Prohibit access to all unauthorised individuals, filming and

22 photographing of prisoners."

23 Q. And if we look at item 5 of General Mladic's order, where he

24 again orders the banning and preventing of giving of information, issuing

25 of announcements --

Page 3776

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. -- particularly in the issue of prisoners of war, evacuated

3 civilians, and so forth. What proposed measure from the Borike proposal

4 and order does that pertain to, sir?

5 A. This could be point 1 and point 3 from the Borike document.

6 MR. THAYER: Okay. Mr. President, I have couple more questions

7 for Mr. Blaszczyk, but I see we're at the break and I can finish very

8 quickly after the break.

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.

10 We must have the first break now and we will resume at 11.00

11 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. Thayer.

14 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

15 Q. Before we continue with the document we were reviewing before the

16 break, Mr. Blaszczyk, I just wanted to clarify one thing you said, and

17 this was at page 24, line 22. I asked you the question:

18 "Based on your investigation, what organs within the VRS were

19 responsible for regulating traffic and setting up check-points?"

20 And your answer was:

21 "It was the military police of the VRS under the command of the

22 security branch."

23 We're going to hear, I'm sure, plenty of testimony from

24 VRS officers from the time and probably some expert testimony as well on

25 this issue, but I want to clarify one thing you said here. When you

Page 3777

1 refer to "under the command of the security branch," I want to ask you

2 whether that's in fact correct or whether there's a different

3 relationship between the security branch and the military police that we

4 sometimes refer to as professional control or guidance or management as

5 opposed to "command" in the sense of a commander commanding the unit.

6 A. [Microphone not activated]

7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The microphone of the witness is not activated.

8 Now everything is okay.

9 THE WITNESS: From my experience during this investigation, which

10 I took part in this investigation relating to the fall of Srebrenica, I

11 met and interviewed many military police officers, VRS military police

12 officers. And of course they were directed from both, let's say from

13 Bratunac Brigade, from Zvornik Brigade, and they were of course directed

14 to the commander of the brigades, but they were receiving orders from the

15 security officer of the brigade. And I believe this is the -- and I'm

16 sure that the security branch had kind of the control on the police, of

17 the military police.

18 MR. THAYER:

19 Q. Okay. As I said, we'll be hearing from other witnesses on this

20 topic, so I'll just leave it there.

21 Now, do we still have 65 ter 2100 on the screen? Okay. Sir,

22 shortly before we took the recess, General Tolimir again suggested that

23 P125, the document we see on the left, the Borike proposal -- proposals

24 and order, was planted or is in some other way inauthentic. Now, having

25 seen the original of General Mladic's order on the right, and I think

Page 3778

1 we've all seen now the original version with Danko Gojkovic's inked

2 signature, indicating that the Rogatica Brigade received that order at

3 2230 hours, how, if at all, did locating this document in the Drina Corps

4 collection affect your conclusion as an investigator, in combination with

5 the other elements of authentication that you've already talked about,

6 that P125 is an authentic document?

7 A. Considering this order and also intercept and witness statement

8 and testimony, I can conclude only that this is authentic document.

9 Q. We've heard a lot of references to the "Atlantida" binder, this

10 collection of documents that you talked about, that you found bound

11 together with this telegram, "Telegrami" heading and "Atlantida" written

12 on it, as you've testified. It's been separated out now so that we can

13 have each document in an individual folder. General Tolimir claimed that

14 with the exception of what he said were the first three documents - and

15 this is at transcript page 3682, line 3, yesterday - which were produced

16 by logistics organs:

17 "The rest contains telegrams which were written by me,"

18 General Tolimir, "and which you" - meaning you - "called "'Atlantida.'"

19 MR. THAYER: First of all, just so that there's no doubt on the

20 record -- and with the Usher's assistance, I just ask that the cover --

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes.

22 MR. THAYER: -- be handed to the witness.

23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, you will recall that I asked earlier

24 to have the B/C/S versions of both documents side by side on the screen.

25 MR. THAYER: Yes, you did, Mr. President. I apologise. If -- as

Page 3779

1 soon as the hardest-working man in the courtroom gets back, if we could

2 have that up, please.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir and Mr. Gajic, you have now the B/C/S

4 versions of both documents on the screen. I know you know the documents.

5 It's not -- nothing new, but I think you should have the chance to have a

6 look at this stage. Is that sufficient? Okay.

7 Then please carry on, Mr. Thayer.

8 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

9 Now, if we may have P469 on e-court, please.

10 Q. And while we're waiting for that -- there we go. Sir, did you or

11 anyone from OTP write "Telegrami 28/34" on this document?

12 A. Of course not. As I said, I think, yesterday, that no one from

13 OTP made any redaction or correction in this -- our evidence in

14 documents.

15 Q. And this word "Atlantida" here, did anybody from OTP write that?

16 A. Also not.

17 Q. And did you have or anybody from the OTP have anything to do with

18 how these documents in this so-called "Atlantida" binder came to be

19 placed within this "Atlantida" binder?

20 A. No, no one from OTP. I believe no one from Tribunal.

21 Q. Now, General Tolimir also suggested that the OTP was somehow

22 selective in the documents that were in this binder and claimed that they

23 all were written by him.

24 MR. THAYER: And, Mr. President, I would offer the entire

25 "Atlantida" binder into evidence at this time. Each of the pages already

Page 3780

1 has a P number because it was listed on one of the Defence

2 cross-examination lists. We may have to postpone for a period of time

3 the actual tendering process because it's a considerable number of

4 numbers, but I can easily get that to Registry in time to take care of

5 that as early as Monday.

6 But I think it will become clear when one looks at the individual

7 documents in the "Atlantida" binder that they emanate from a number of

8 individuals and officers, not just General Tolimir. And I can take

9 Mr. Blaszczyk through some of these documents now and just show them to

10 the Trial Chamber, or I can just offer them to the Trial Chamber and at

11 the Trial Chamber's leisure you can see for yourself that the signatories

12 include other members of the Rogatica Brigade, General Krstic, for

13 example, from the Drina Corps, and others. I'm happy to take some

14 additional time and go through some of the individual documents if that's

15 the Court's preference or not.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, what is your position?

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. My

18 objection is this: The "Atlantis" title is something I wanted to check.

19 I wanted to check its authenticity. I asked the witness before, in my

20 earlier cross-examination two months ago, he said that he had found such

21 an original in the Drina Corps collection. But yesterday he said that

22 this was given to him by Colonel Acimovic -- or some other colonel. And

23 now I don't know -- I mean, we need to establish that something is

24 authentic before it is admitted into evidence, and I think that should

25 also apply to the "Atlantis" document. Danko Gojkovic said that that was

Page 3781

1 the first time he was seeing the document and he said that when he was

2 here to testify. Thank you.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I think we would like to hear

4 something if you agree to tendering -- the tendering of the whole

5 document by the Prosecution, or if you are in agreement with this.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 [Defence counsel confer]

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The document has already been

9 admitted. It was not admitted through this witness. The entire

10 "Atlantis" binder. I thought at the time that it was an original until

11 Danko said that he had never seen it before. So now there is the

12 question of the authenticity of the actual cover itself, not of the

13 documents that are in the binder. I am objecting to the admission of

14 something that has not been verified and authenticated and we're not sure

15 if that is an original.

16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.

17 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, Mr. Blaszczyk has been crystal clear

18 on a number of occasions with the Trial Chamber about the form in which

19 he found the "Atlantida" binder, the circumstances under which he first

20 saw it, and how it was processed, and how it came to be into the

21 courtroom today. General Tolimir has directly challenged the

22 authenticity of selected documents from the "Atlantida" binder. He has

23 sought to admit certain of the documents when it suits him, but he is

24 vigorously challenging the authenticity of other documents. And he is

25 specifically in addition challenging how this "Atlantida" binder was put

Page 3782

1 together. And we've already heard testimony from general -- from

2 Mr. Blaszczyk about his efforts to interview an individual he thinks,

3 based on his investigation, may have some knowledge about how this

4 particular mini collection of documents within the Drina Corps collection

5 was put together.

6 On that note, we have filed a motion on the 18th of June, seeking

7 to add that witness to the Prosecution's list of witnesses. We may need

8 a Court order if the Court grants our motion to bring that witness here,

9 but that will be for another day. In any event, General Tolimir has

10 placed the authenticity of this group of documents directly at issue.

11 Again, he has suggested that certain documents, including P125, was

12 planted. I think it would be helpful for the Trial Chamber to see

13 exactly how these documents lay together, as Mr. Blaszczyk has told the

14 Trial Chamber.

15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

17 Can we delete the untruths from the transcript. All I am

18 disputing --

19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, sorry -- no, we can't delete anything from

20 the transcript.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I did not dispute a

22 series of documents. We have been working for two days now, and all I'm

23 disputing is the title of this document, "Atlantida," because I'm saying

24 that this part where it says "telegrams," the witness did not write that

25 and that he did not write "Atlantida." And I disputed the document P125,

Page 3783

1 which was on the screen a little bit earlier. I did not dispute any

2 other document and it has been said -- stated here that Tolimir disputed

3 a series of other documents which is not true. I put in an objection

4 because the transcript is recording what appear to be untruths.

5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Again, we can't delete anything from the

6 transcript. What is said is said and it is recorded.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I apologise. I

8 misspoke. What I meant was to correct the errors, not to delete anything

9 from the transcript. I wanted my truth to be recorded as well. Thank

10 you.

11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It is recorded, and the Trial Chamber will

12 consider the positions.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, Mr. Thayer, I think all parts of this

15 binder are already in evidence as single and separate exhibits. What

16 about this cover page, is that part of one of these exhibits?

17 MR. THAYER: We were just doing the same exercise, Mr. President,

18 that is, 469. And we'll let the trial -- that also came in apparently

19 through Mr. Gojkovic.

20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I see Mr. Gajic in agreement.

21 And therefore, what is the purpose of your tendering the whole

22 document as one new exhibit?

23 MR. THAYER: Actually, Mr. President, if everything is in

24 separately, then there is no need to re-admit, obviously, everything as

25 one big exhibit. The idea is for they -- for the documents to be in a

Page 3784

1 particular order in which they were found so the Trial Chamber can at

2 least see that, so you can see how these documents lay inside this

3 binder. So I understand that they came in in bits and pieces through

4 Mr. Gojkovic, but the idea is to make them available to the Trial Chamber

5 in a form where you can see how this binder existed when Mr. Blaszczyk

6 first laid his hands and eyes on it.

7 Perhaps we can put our thinking hats on over the weekend and

8 figure out some way of doing that without giving everything a new number

9 and we can come back to the Trial Chamber easily on that.

10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Chamber appreciates this proposal because

11 otherwise we are really confused at the end. But you could show this

12 binder as you have it with you in the original form to the witness, to

13 the Chamber, and to the Defence, and we can, without going through all

14 documents, I think this is not the purpose of re-examination, let's have

15 a look -- let the witness have a look on it, if he can say anything about

16 his recognition.

17 Mr. Blaszczyk, could you say something, do you recognise

18 anything?

19 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. As I said some time ago, I

20 recognise this binder. The cover page is very clear for me, that at

21 first time I seen this cover page, the entire small binder called

22 "Atlantida" in Zagreb, at the field office in Zagreb. And the collection

23 of the documents seized by ICTY from MUP, RS MUP, and RS MOD arrived to

24 Zagreb on the 17th December 2004. During the next -- the following two

25 days and on the 17th as well, I reviewed almost entire -- almost entire

Page 3785

1 collection and I remember this binder very clear. The documents from

2 this collection I am keeping in my hands right now, they were clipped

3 together. And the first page we see on the screen, it was the first, the

4 cover page, of this binder in the same shape, except of course

5 ERN number.

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please have a look at the first page where you

7 find "Atlantida" in front of you. In the original, not on the screen.

8 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, I can confirm, it's the same shape.

9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

10 Mr. Tolimir.

11 [Defence counsel confer]

12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I thought since the

14 witness said that the first time he saw the document was in Zagreb and

15 that they were seized from the Ministry of Defence and from the MUP, but

16 these documents were in the OTP office in Banja Luka, then the question

17 could be the order in which they were arranged because the witness is

18 claiming something else than what another witness said, that the binder

19 was arranged in a different way. Perhaps this is something that could be

20 clarified. Thank you.

21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.

22 MR. THAYER: Well, first I think it would be helpful to have a

23 direct citation of who this alleged witness is and what he said and when

24 he allegedly said it about this binder, if General Tolimir's serious

25 about what he just said. Otherwise, I'm not sure it's helpful to go any

Page 3786

1 further. Mr. Blaszczyk has made it clear, once again, the circumstances

2 under which he first laid his eyes and hands on the "Atlantida" binder.

3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Do you have any further questions for

4 Mr. Blaszczyk --

5 MR. THAYER: No, I do not --

6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- in relation to "Atlantida"?

7 MR. THAYER: No questions further at all, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.

9 Then the binder should be shown to the Chamber and the Defence.

10 [Trial Chamber confers]

11 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, if I may, just one additional

12 question while you're looking at the originals there.

13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, please.

14 MR. THAYER:

15 Q. I think we went into this many moons ago when you first

16 testified, but how were these -- you said they were clipped together.

17 How were these actually clipped together, this collection of "Atlantida"

18 documents?

19 A. It was clipped together in the same order we see these documents

20 right now. The procedure here is that when the binder or whatever

21 document arrive into The Hague, it's accepted by Evidence Unit, even

22 if this is a binder, the documents are clipped together, the documents

23 are separated from the binder and are stamped in the same order by people

24 from Evidence Unit, giving to the particular page, the following pages,

25 the number.