Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4381

 1                           Wednesday, 25 August 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon to everybody.

 7             We are continuing with your examination-in-chief, and I would

 8     like to remind you that the affirmation to tell the truth still applies.

 9                           WITNESS:  HAMDIJA TORLAK [Resumed]

10                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, please proceed.

12             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good afternoon to you and

13     Your Honours.  Good afternoon to the Defence.  Good afternoon to

14     everyone.

15                           Examination by Mr. Thayer: [Continued]

16        Q.   Good afternoon, Witness.

17        A.   Good afternoon.

18        Q.   When we left off yesterday, you had been telling us about the

19     conditions that prevailed on the 24th of July, 1995, both among the

20     civilian population in Zepa as well as upon yourself at check-point 2 at

21     Boksanica, where you testified you were forced to sign an agreement

22     served on you by General Mladic.

23             When you testified previously, you testified about the agreement,

24     but we did not have at that time a signed copy of the agreement.  And

25     since your last testimony, we obtained one during the course of a search.

Page 4382

 1     And do you recall being shown a copy of the signed agreement during your

 2     proofing session this past Sunday?

 3        A.   Yes, I was shown the signed agreement.

 4             MR. THAYER:  May we have 652 -- pardon me, 65 ter 5482 on

 5     e-court.  And I would ask that it not be broadcast, please.

 6        Q.   Sir, I'd just ask you to take a moment and reacquaint yourself

 7     with the document.

 8             Have you had a chance to read through it, sir?

 9        A.   Yes, I have read it through once again.  During my testimony

10     yesterday, I mentioned this document and said a few things about it.  I

11     said that as far as I could recall, I did not expect this document to

12     be of this substance and that it would be entitled "An Agreement on

13     Disarming the Military Population" or "Able-Bodied Population in Zepa."

14     And I said that to General Mladic, but we no longer had any choice.  Our

15     objective was to begin the evacuation of the civilian population.

16             There are a number of paragraphs in this agreement which

17     define and had already been prepared and shown to me, such as they were.

18     And especially where it relates to the able-bodied population, if I am

19     not mistaken, General Mladic told me to convey the substance of this

20     document to Colonel Palic.  And that's all I can say about it.  I signed

21     the document because I had no other choice.  And this paper actually was

22     promising that the beginning of the evacuation of the civilian population

23     from Zepa is at hand.

24             MR. THAYER:  If we can go back one page in the English, please.

25     We can stay, obviously, where we are in the B/C/S because it's a one-page

Page 4383

 1     document.  But if we could just go back one page and focus for a moment,

 2     please, on paragraph 7 at the bottom.  And, in fact, if we scroll down in

 3     the B/C/S so that the signatories -- well, first of all, while we're not

 4     broadcasting:

 5        Q.   Can you identify your signature on the original B/C/S on the left

 6     side of the screen, sir?

 7        A.   On the right-hand side?  Yes, the B/C/S version, it's in the

 8     bottom right corner.  I recognise my signature.

 9             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  If we could scroll down so that we don't see

10     the signatories, then I believe we can -- or scroll up, I beg your

11     pardon.  Then we can broadcast the document.  And maybe blow up --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's impossible.

13             MR. THAYER:  Maybe we can just blow up that top portion.  Great.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A bit more.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  By blowing up, you should focus on paragraph 7.

16     Otherwise, you will not manage it.  The other way around, please.  Scroll

17     up, please.  Once again, please, only focus -- it is possible to blow up

18     a little bit more paragraph number 7.  It must be possible, because on

19     the right side there is more space.  And now again scroll up a little bit

20     so that the names of the signatures disappear.  Yes.

21             MR. THAYER:  Okay, thank you.

22        Q.   Now, sir -- and we can broadcast at this point, please.

23             We see here at paragraph 7 that the agreement served upon you by

24     General Mladic states that:

25             "In accordance with the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949 and

Page 4384

 1     the Additional Protocols of 1977, the civilian population of Zepa shall

 2     be given the freedom to choose their place of residence while hostilities

 3     continue."

 4             I ask you first, sir:  How closely was the VRS -- from what you

 5     saw and had reported to you, how closely was the VRS --

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, there is a concern between -- because

 7     in the English version --

 8             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I see what you're

 9     referring to, the top of the English version.  If we could scroll up.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, the other way around, please.  The other way

11     around, further, and blow up a little bit on --

12             MR. THAYER:  Just paragraph --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- paragraph 7.  A little bit further, please.

14     Just a little bit further.  Blow up a little bit further, please.

15                           [Trial Chamber and Court Usher confer]

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In that case, we can't broadcast it.

17             MR. THAYER:  I think we can work with what we've got.  I've just

18     read in the relevant section into the record anyway, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Without broadcasting this document.

20             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  Thank you.

21        Q.   Let me just ask my question again, sir.  We see this reference

22     here to "the civilian population shall be given the freedom to choose

23     their place of residence in accordance with the Geneva Conventions."  You

24     were there.  Based on what you saw and what was being reported to you,

25     how closely was the VRS following the Geneva Conventions up to that

Page 4385

 1     point?

 2        A.   Well, look, of course, I'm no expert and I do not know the exact

 3     provisions of the Geneva Conventions, but as any other person, I do know

 4     that they regulate the manner and treatment of others during wartime.

 5     And in my earlier testimony, I mentioned a number of activities by the

 6     Republika Srpska Army which certainly would not be in compliance with the

 7     Geneva Conventions.  Article 7, or paragraph 7 to be precise, and I

 8     believe I've mentioned it earlier, at that time on the 24th of July,

 9     1995, this paragraph was unavoidable.  There was no other option for us

10     that was realistic, no other option but for the civilian population to

11     leave Zepa.  That was what the situation was.

12             And as for my signature on this document, to be honest, nobody

13     even gave it a second thought.  No Zepa inhabitants, certainly, gave it

14     any particular thought.  And, again, I have to repeat.  In view of the

15     situation on that day, on the 24th of July, that was not an option, that

16     was not a realistic option.

17        Q.   And from your contacts with these high-level VRS officers,

18     beginning with General Tolimir on the 13th, and then Generals Tolimir and

19     Mladic again on the 19th, and then Generals Tolimir and Mladic again on

20     the 24th, from what you could tell as you sat there, what was the purpose

21     of putting this reference to the Geneva Conventions, under these

22     circumstances as you've described them for us here, in this agreement?

23        A.   Well, logically, one would assume that the introduction of this

24     paragraph 7 was, in fact, to be a cover for those operations that were

25     not in compliance with the Geneva Conventions, and I mean that probably

Page 4386

 1     the evacuation of the population, that is not something that would be in

 2     compliance with the Geneva Conventions.  That would be my interpretation

 3     of this.  Although I have to repeat, at that point I did not give it a

 4     second thought.  What was important, the key matter for us, was to begin

 5     with the evacuation of the civilians.

 6        Q.   During this meeting on the 24th of July, did General Mladic tell

 7     you anything about how the removal or the departure of the population was

 8     actually to take place?  How was it to be carried out?  Did he tell you

 9     anything about that on the 24th of July?

10        A.   Well, I think that once this document was signed, it was agreed,

11     in principle, how this was to be carried out.  I can't recall, as I sit

12     here, what it was that General Mladic said, whether he said that

13     General Tolimir would be in charge of the entire operation, but I do know

14     that it was agreed that the civilian population was to gather in

15     down-town Zepa and that then buses and trucks would be sent to the center

16     of Zepa to transport these people.  I can't recall exactly whether it was

17     specified at what time, exactly, this was to begin, when the departure or

18     removal of the population was to begin, but, in any case, it was in the

19     morning.  There was an agreement of some sort.

20             And just a remark about what is stated in paragraph 10, the

21     presence of the UNPROFOR and the UNHCR and the International Red Cross.

22     It was envisaged that they would be present, that there would be a

23     presence of the UNPROFOR and the International Red Cross and the UNHCR in

24     Zepa.

25        Q.   Okay, sir.  I want to cast your memory back to the prior

Page 4387

 1     proceedings in which you testified.  And for the record, this was at

 2     page 9736.  And I want to ask you whether you recall being asked the

 3     following question and giving the following answer.

 4             MR. THAYER:  And, Mr. President, if we could have that on the

 5     screen, I think that would be helpful for everyone, and it'd probably be

 6     easiest just not to broadcast it, I think, at this point.  It's the

 7     30th of March, 2007.  We'll handle that from this end.  We'll be looking

 8     at lines 17 through 25.

 9        Q.   You were asked the following question:

10             "During this meeting on the 24th of July, did General Mladic tell

11     you anything else about how matters were going to proceed from that point

12     on, particularly in terms of your role, sir?"

13             And your answer was:

14             "Yes.  What he said, and it's not in the document, is that the

15     entire operation relating to the evacuation of the population from Zepa

16     would be carried out by General Tolimir, together with

17     Colonel Avdo Palic.  They would be in the centre of Zepa and organise

18     things so that the population could be transported.  As for the security

19     for the life of General Tolimir ..."

20             And this continues to the next page:

21             "... well, I was supposed to go to check-point 2 and spend the

22     entire period of time at that check-point as a guarantee for his

23     security."

24             And, again, Witness, as you've said many times, it's been

25     15 years, and you've gone into tremendous detail with us already, so this

Page 4388

 1     is no criticism of you, but does this help refresh your recollection at

 2     all about what General Mladic may have told you on the 24th of July?

 3        A.   Well, yes, I can confirm this.

 4        Q.   So why was it --

 5             MR. THAYER:  And we're done with this document for now.  Thank

 6     you, Ms. Stewart.

 7        Q.   And why was it necessary, according to General Mladic, for you to

 8     remain at the Boksanica check-point to secure General Tolimir's safety?

 9        A.   Well, look.  On the 24th and later on, on the 25th, 26th, and

10     probably the 27th, although I wasn't in the center of Zepa on that day,

11     the situation was as follows:  The Army of Republika Srpska had not

12     entered the center of Zepa.  It stopped at some 500 metres to 1 kilometre

13     away, where a new line was established, and one of the officers from the

14     Serb side, if they were to enter Zepa, that would, in fact, mean that

15     they were entering territory that was not under the control of the

16     Serb Army.  That was the situation.  So General Tolimir would be coming

17     in to an environment that was not under the control of Republika Srpska

18     Army.

19        Q.   Okay.  In a moment, we're going to look at a brief video-clip.

20     Before we do that, just going back to this meeting on the 24th of July

21     and the agreement, as we just saw, paragraph 7 of that agreement refers

22     to the right -- or the freedom for the civilian population of Zepa to

23     choose their place of residence while the hostilities continue.  Was

24     there ever any discussion of the possibility that the Muslim population

25     would ever return to Zepa?

Page 4389

 1        A.   I'm afraid I don't understand your question.  What do you mean

 2     when you say "to return to Zepa"?  Does that mean to stay in Zepa?

 3        Q.   No, I mean after they were removed, after their departure from

 4     Zepa, was there ever any discussion up to this point, either on the 13th

 5     with General Tolimir, the 19th with General Tolimir and General Mladic,

 6     or on the 24th, was there ever any discussion at all about the

 7     possibility of the Muslim population returning to Zepa after it had been

 8     taken out?

 9        A.   Of course not.  It was a situation that nobody else can

10     understand but the participants in the events.  Of course not.  Nothing

11     was ever said about that at all.

12        Q.   Why not, sir?

13        A.   Well, look, we're talking warfare.  To put it simply, at that

14     time -- I don't know how to put it, actually.  Territories were being

15     taken over, and there was no reference to any return.  Later on, it was

16     outlined by the Dayton Accords.  But let me say, just once again, it was

17     not to do with any academic discussions about human rights or any such

18     thing.  Those were meetings where the destiny of the population was being

19     discussed and resolved.  Of course, nobody said, You're leaving today,

20     you will be coming tomorrow.  We didn't even expect that would be said.

21     We didn't even insist on that.

22        Q.   What kind of life, to the extent that you considered it, would

23     you expect to have, that is, you and the Muslim population, had you tried

24     to return to Zepa under VRS or Serb authority/control?

25        A.   Well, look, you have to be familiar with the situation that

Page 4390

 1     prevailed throughout the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Once you leave a

 2     territory, or you are expelled, or you just abandon the territory, there

 3     was absolutely no way for anybody to return in a normal way, as it were,

 4     to the territory, and this applies to the entire territory of

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Such people could return only after the same

 6     territory was militarily taken over.  Therefore, any considerations with

 7     regard to the gist of your question, it's simply such that not even

 8     theoretical possibilities of that existed.

 9             For example, once the VRS entered Zepa, the only way for somebody

10     to return to that area would have been if the BiH Army units had

11     physically reclaimed the territory, and that was the situation that

12     prevailed across the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, in general

13     terms.

14        Q.   And to what degree was this situation determined by one's

15     ethnicity, sir, one's religious identity?

16        A.   Well, look, that is the only thing that determined the situation,

17     the only and exclusive thing.  The territory of Zepa was purely Muslim,

18     and if anybody was to return there, that would have been Muslims.  And I

19     already told you why they could not return.  I'm describing a situation

20     after Zepa was taken over by the VRS.  There was a war going on, and, for

21     example, if you were in Kladanj, there was nothing you could do even if

22     you wanted to go back to Zepa.  Nobody even dreamt about that.  It was

23     not realistic to think along those lines.

24        Q.   I'm going to jump ahead just for a moment, sir.  We're going to

25     get to the actual events of the removal of the Muslim population shortly,

Page 4391

 1     but can you tell the Trial Chamber what happened to the mosque in Zepa

 2     after the civilian population was removed?

 3        A.   As far as I know, the mosque was destroyed and most of the houses

 4     were torched.

 5        Q.   Did you see the mosque yourself, with your own eyes, sir, after

 6     it had been destroyed?

 7        A.   Yes.  A couple of months after the events, I was taken prisoner,

 8     and as a prisoner, I came to Zepa to search for cable -- installation

 9     cables for the facility that we worked on in Borike, and that's when I

10     saw what had happened to the mosque and all the other houses in Zepa.

11             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  Let's talk about the events of the

12     25th of July.

13             And just before we do that, Mr. President, the Prosecution would

14     tender 65 ter 5482 at this time.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P735.

17             MR. THAYER:

18        Q.   Tell the Trial Chamber what happened that day, please.

19        A.   On the 25th of July, 1995, the evacuation of the sick and

20     civilians started from Zepa in the direction of Zepa [as interpreted],

21     and I believe that the first convoy with the sick and wounded proceeded

22     towards Sarajevo.  As far as I can remember, General Tolimir arrived in

23     the center of Zepa in the morning.  He was escorted by some men.  I don't

24     know whether they were officers or privates.  Representatives of the

25     International Red Cross also arrived.  UNPROFOR members were already

Page 4392

 1     there.  I don't remember whether any UNHCR representatives were there as

 2     well.  They first arrived in the UNPROFOR base in the center of Zepa.

 3     And speaking from memory, Colonel Palic immediately got in touch with

 4     General Tolimir.  I wasn't involved in any talks on that day and on any

 5     of the following days with General Tolimir.  I remember that I saw him on

 6     a few occasions with Avdo in the center of Zepa.

 7             And also, as far as I can remember, arrangements were agreed --

 8     were made with the Red Cross for all the population that got on any of

 9     the buses to be listed by their first name and family name.  I don't know

10     whether the date and place of birth were also recorded.  And one copy of

11     that list was to remain with the representatives of the

12     International Red Cross.

13             As far as I can remember, the first buses departed sometime

14     around midday on the 25th of July, 1995.  At the beginning, people were

15     apprehensive as they arrived in the center of Zepa, and their numbers

16     were very small at the beginning because most of the population was still

17     in the mountains and communication means were all down.  It was difficult

18     to communicate.  Therefore, in the second half of the day, many more

19     people started arriving.

20             As far as I can remember, on that day, General Mladic called me

21     to another meeting at Brezova Ravan.  He did that via the UNPROFOR.  I

22     embarked in an UNPROFOR vehicle and I went to Brezova Ravan.  And now,

23     when we're talking about that meeting, I think that General Rupert Smith

24     also attended the meeting.  The meeting was very brief, and it took place

25     at Brezova Ravan.

Page 4393

 1             General Mladic looked at Zepa.  I don't know what was the

 2     exchange between him and General Rupert Smith.

 3             And let me go back to what was our biggest problem at the time.

 4     And when I say "our problem," I mean the War Presidency of Zepa.  The

 5     problem was to find a solution to the problem of militarily able-bodied

 6     men.  On the 25th of July, our idea, to put it that way, the idea of us,

 7     members of the War Presidency of Zepa, was not to hand over the

 8     militarily able-bodied men to the VRS but, rather, to try and include

 9     them into the system of exchange, everybody for everybody, and for

10     UNPROFOR to provide a helicopter transport that would not be checked by

11     the VRS, and that the militarily able-bodied men would be transported to

12     the territory under the control of the BiH Army.

13             I believe that General Rupert Smith wanted to assist with that.

14     He -- at that time, he was a number-one man of UNPROFOR for Bosnia and

15     Herzegovina.  He already started making some calculation as to how many

16     helicopters and sorties would be required, and so on and so forth.

17     However, General Mladic interrupted that and said that the only way

18     people could leave Zepa was the one leaving from Zepa to Brezova Ravan,

19     and he pointed to that road.

20             As far as I can remember, that meeting was really short.  The

21     atmosphere was relaxed.  There was nothing grave about the whole thing.

22     Nobody dwelled on the problem of the militarily able-bodied men of Zepa.

23             And after perhaps half an hour -- after having talked with

24     General Rupert Smith and General Mladic for half an hour, I returned to

25     Zepa in the same UNPROFOR vehicle.  That was in the evening on the

Page 4394

 1     25th of July, 1995.  I believe that a couple of batches, consisting of

 2     anything between five to ten buses, had already left Zepa.  I believe

 3     that the first batch of buses, carrying sick and wounded, left for

 4     Sarajevo, and the others, carrying women and children, went in the

 5     direction of the separation line somewhere around Kladanj.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, Judge Nyambe would like to put a

 7     question to the witness.

 8             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Okay.  If we can go back to page 5, lines 7 to 16

 9     of today's transcript, I have some clarifications, and this is in

10     reference to the document 65 ter 5482, which is an agreement on disarming

11     of the persons fit for military service in Zepa enclave, dated

12     24th of July, 1995, which is signed by, among others, yourself, the

13     witness.

14             You were signing on whose behalf?  And if also you can tell me

15     who was signing on whose behalf in this group of persons who signed this

16     agreement.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I signed that document on behalf of

18     the War Presidency of the Municipality of Zepa or as a representative of

19     Zepa, officially.  And in addition to that, I would like to clarify --

20     or, rather, I would like us all to try and understand the whole

21     situation.

22             I've already repeated several times that the contents of the

23     document did not make me authorised to deal with the issue of disarmament

24     of soldiers in Zepa.  However, I also said twice that the situation was

25     such that I signed the document in order to allow for the start of the

Page 4395

 1     evacuation of the civilian population of Zepa.  I transferred the issue

 2     of disarmament on to Commander Palic.

 3             I'm afraid I didn't understand the second part of your question,

 4     the second half of it, so could you please rephrase it or help me

 5     understand that?

 6             JUDGE NYAMBE:  I just want to know on whose behalf the various

 7     signatories were signing this document.  Now I know that you were signing

 8     on behalf of the War Presidency of Zepa.  How about Rajko Kusic?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could I see the document again?  I

10     can't remember the signatures on it.  When I see the signatures, I'll try

11     and remember who signed on whose behalf.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  P735.  It should not be broadcast.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay, now I can answer.

14             I sign on behalf of the War Presidency of Zepa or -- very well.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We need the signatures now.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is enough.  You don't have to

17     fiddle with it.  It's okay.

18             Colonel Rajko Kusic signed on behalf of the Army of

19     Republika Srpska, or the Serbian side.  Sejmon Dudnjik signed on behalf

20     of UNPROFOR, and here it says Ratko Mladic also signed.  He was the

21     commander of the Army of Republika Srpska, and he certified the

22     authenticity of the document.  He also represented the Serbian side,

23     together with Rajko Kusic.

24             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Okay.  So you were then the most high-ranking

25     official from the BiH side present in the meeting and signing this

Page 4396

 1     document.

 2             My question is:  In reference to paragraph 7 in the English

 3     version of this agreement, which refers to the Geneva Conventions, you

 4     have remarked that you did not give it a thought.  What exactly do you

 5     mean, you did not give it a thought?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me repeat what I already said,

 7     but I'll try to be more specific or clear.

 8             Given the situation, the only option that remained was to

 9     evacuate the population of Zepa, and, I repeat, no other option was

10     realistic.  Nobody could stay behind at the moment.  This paragraph is

11     really moot.  It didn't even comment upon it.  Of course, I could not

12     embark on any analysis.  I didn't ask about the possibility of anybody

13     staying, and so on and so forth.

14             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put an additional question.

16             Did you in any way discuss with the other participants the

17     content of the draft before you signed it, the draft agreement?  Did you

18     negotiate the content?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't negotiate.  When I

20     read the content of the agreement, I said to General Mladic that I was

21     not authorised to deal with the part concerning the disarmament of the

22     militarily able-bodied men in Zepa.  However, given the situation and the

23     title of the document, "Agreement," it was a euphemism.  In practical

24     terms, we had lost all key positions, and we did not stand a chance to

25     mount a successful defence.  It was capitulation, so we were in no

Page 4397

 1     position to lay down any conditions of our own.  As a representative of

 2     Zepa at the meeting, I was interested in securing a possibility for the

 3     start of the evacuation.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  That was enough.  You

 5     answered my question.

 6             One additional question:  Did Colonel Dudnjik, the Ukrainian

 7     representative of UNPROFOR, discuss the content in any way with you or

 8     the other participants?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not with me, as far as I can

10     remember, and I don't know whether he discussed it with others.  But I

11     don't think, even if he had, that anything would have changed, that the

12     matter would have been any different, even if I had had any additional

13     questions to ask.  The content of the agreement would have not been

14     changed at all.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, our apologies for these additional

16     questions, but now Judge Mindua has also a question.

17             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.  I'm sorry, I also

18     have a question to put to the witness.

19             Witness, on page 16 of the transcript, line 5, you said that no

20     one could stay behind.  And, of course, I assume that you are talking

21     about the evacuation of the civilian population.  I was wondering whether

22     General Mladic or the Serbs had told you exactly why the population had

23     to be evacuated, because the war seemed to have ended.  You signed a

24     disarmament agreement for all people who were carrying weapons, which

25     means that the war had come to an end.  So why did the population have to

Page 4398

 1     go?  Were you given any reason for that?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I have to remind you again of

 3     the situation in the area in 1992 through 1995.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Witness, I think it is enough if you tell the

 5     Chamber if at this meeting you were given any reasons for that

 6     evacuation.  That was the question.  Just focus on that, please.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I misunderstood.

 8             Well, the answer is very simple.  No one, of course, went into

 9     the reasons for the evacuation of the civilians from Zepa.

10             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I will accept this answer for the

11     time being.  The Prosecutor may proceed, I assume.

12             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Just following up on Judge Mindua's question:  You

13     have emphasised in your own testimony that evacuation was the most

14     important thing for you, under the Zepa Presidency.  Like Judge Mindua

15     has said, by the 25th of July, the war had ended, you had entered into a

16     disarmament agreement, however little you may have thought of it.  On

17     your own part, why was it necessary to evacuate the population from Zepa?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The war in Bosnia was of such a

19     nature that it almost always implied that the area captured by, for

20     instance, the Army of Republika Srpska, in that territory the implication

21     was only members of the Serb ethnicity would be allowed to stay.  And I

22     said "for instance," because, in principle, this is also true for a good

23     part of the other armies that existed at the time in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

24     So your question is logical, viewed from this perspective.  In that

25     situation, it was logical and normal for the population of Zepa, no

Page 4399

 1     matter how strange it may appear today, so it was normal for the

 2     population of Zepa to consider it that way.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm sure, Mr. Thayer, you will elaborate a little

 4     bit further, during your examination, on this matter.  Please carry on.

 5             MR. THAYER:  Let me just pick up from that last series of

 6     questions and answers, if I may, Mr. President.  And I think we've been

 7     slowly drilling down into some of the essential issues, frankly, of the

 8     case, much less the testimony of this witness here today.

 9        Q.   Without talking about, for the moment, any of the particular

10     meetings that you attended, and I think you've answered this from a

11     couple of different angles, but from your experience of the war, what was

12     the fundamental nature of the war, sir?

13        A.   Look, I'm probably not the right person or qualified enough to

14     assess and define the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  I told you what I

15     knew from my own experience, what I saw, and what I know.  And I will

16     repeat in just a few sentences, without giving any qualifications for the

17     kind of war this was, because I don't think I'm competent enough to do

18     that.  But, in essence, the areas, for instance, that were under the

19     control of the Republika Srpska Army, predominantly the population that

20     remained to live in those areas was of Serb ethnicity.  The same is

21     probably true following the clashes between the BH Army and the HVO.  The

22     same is probably true for all the other parties; in some areas, more so

23     than in others.  But, in any case, this was a war for territory, and the

24     point was that the war was supposed to define the ethnic borders in

25     Bosnia and Herzegovina, as it were.

Page 4400

 1        Q.   So on the 25th of July, 1995, when, for all intents and purposes,

 2     Zepa was in VRS hands, when there was no hope for further successful

 3     military resistance, why couldn't the civilian population stay?

 4        A.   Well, look, there was some talk at the first meeting with

 5     General Mladic about the possibility of the civilians remaining in place.

 6     To be honest, I never had any contacts with anyone of the locals, the

 7     people who had their homes there.  I only got that information from

 8     Mr. Benjamin Kulovac, who was a local man, and he was probably better

 9     acquainted with the situation there and with the thinking of the people

10     in Zepa.

11             After the 19th, the further developments, the new military

12     operations, obviously created and instilled additional fear in the

13     people, and they feared that if they remained in their homes, they could

14     have difficulties, maybe even be killed or mistreated, by the

15     Republika Srpska Army.  And, again, I have to repeat I'm not saying that

16     this would have been the case, and maybe if the people did remain,

17     nothing would have happened to them, but I'm just saying that this was

18     the apprehension and the fear that these people had, and that is why they

19     all decided to leave Zepa.  In other words, they were afraid that

20     something might befall them, something bad; that they might be killed, or

21     mistreated, or something to that effect.

22        Q.   And we jumped ahead a little bit a little while ago.  You told us

23     that the mosque was destroyed and that the buildings and homes had been

24     torched.  I'm going to jump ahead again, but we'll get back to this in

25     some more detail.

Page 4401

 1             You've spoken about Mr. Hajric, Mr. Mehmed Hajric, the hodza of

 2     Zepa.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber what happened to him after the

 3     civilian population was removed and the VRS took over Zepa?

 4        A.   On the 27th of July, I believe that that was the day when

 5     Mehmed Hajric was captured by the Army of Republika Srpska, just as I

 6     was, and I will briefly tell you about it.

 7             Some four or five days later, we were removed from Borike, where

 8     we were temporarily kept at the hotel.  We were taken to the Rogatica

 9     Prison.  This was a farm, actually, and these were buildings that were

10     meant for keeping animals in them.  Mehmed Hajric, Amir Imamovic and I

11     were detained together.  We were in a special separate room.  And I think

12     that some few weeks later, in mid-August to be more precise,

13     Mehmed Hajric and Amir Imamovic were taken away and they never returned.

14     Sometime in the year 2000, I believe, their remains were found in the

15     area of Vragolovi village.  That's in the general area of Rogatica.  And

16     they were buried in Sarajevo.  I think this was in 2000 or 2002, sometime

17     about that time.

18        Q.   Now, sir, Mr. Imamovic, is that the same Amir Imamovic whom you

19     described earlier as being the chief of the Civil Protection

20     organisation?

21        A.   Yes, it is the same man.

22        Q.   How was he regarded by the population of Zepa, and what was his

23     significance to the population of Zepa?

24        A.   Well, Amir Imamovic was a local man.  He lived in Zepa, and he

25     was probably one of the more eminent people there, and that is why,

Page 4402

 1     probably, he was the chief of the Civilian Protection in Zepa.

 2        Q.   And we'll get to this later, but Mr. Imamovic also went with you

 3     to meet with General Mladic during the course of these events and the

 4     removal of the civilian population; is that correct?

 5        A.   No.  Imamovic did not go with me.  It was Omanovic.  He went and

 6     attended the first meeting with General Tolimir.

 7        Q.   Yes, and I'm referring to the 27th of July, not the 13th.

 8        A.   On the 27th of July, that was actually the last day of the

 9     evacuation, the third day.  And the day before, I was in Boksanica, and

10     together with the last convoy, Amir Imamovic and Mehmed Hajric arrived,

11     so that we spent some time together that afternoon.  And as for

12     Amir Imamovic, he did not go to any meetings with me where General Mladic

13     was present.

14        Q.   Okay.  Well, we'll look at a document and see if that refreshes

15     your recollection.

16             How about Colonel Palic, sir?  Can you tell the Trial Chamber,

17     briefly, the fate of Colonel Palic?

18        A.   I will tell you, briefly, what I know about that.

19             Colonel Palic, on the first day of the evacuation, the

20     25th of July, 1995, Colonel Palic, together with his family, his wife and

21     two children, left for Kladanj in the convoy, which is where people

22     crossed over to the territory which was under the control of the BH Army,

23     and he came back that same evening.  On the next day, the 26th of July,

24     he told me that on his way back, he briefly met with General Mladic at

25     Boksanica, who told him that I should go, as had been requested earlier,

Page 4403

 1     as a kind of guarantee for General Tolimir while he was to be in the

 2     center of Zepa.

 3             On that day, on the 26th of July, I left with one of the convoys

 4     and went to Boksanica.  I was on one of the buses in the convoy.

 5     Boksanica is check-point 2 of the UNPROFOR.  Practically, that was the

 6     last time that I saw Colonel Avdo Palic.  From what I heard later, he was

 7     captured.  I don't know about this -- I don't have any personal knowledge

 8     because I had left on the 26th.  But later on, Avdo Palic -- or, I mean,

 9     his body, or, rather, his remains, were found, I believe, at the same

10     place, the Vragolovi village, in the general area of Rogatica, and were

11     buried in Sarajevo a few years ago, I believe.

12        Q.   So we have these three prominent leaders of the Muslim community

13     in Zepa being taken, disappearing, and ending up in the same grave.  What

14     kind of life would the Muslim population that had been removed from Zepa

15     enjoy without its hodza, without a prominent man like Mr. Imamovic,

16     without a leader like Colonel Palic, with its mosque in rubble and its

17     homes torched?

18        A.   Well, all those activities and all the things that you mentioned,

19     they were a message to the population of Zepa not to return.  And I would

20     like to add that a large number of inhabitants of Zepa actually sought

21     refuge all over the world.  Many of them ended up in America.  Some of

22     them returned, mostly the elderly.

23        Q.   And those that returned were able to do so only following the end

24     of the war and the Dayton Accords; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.  Well, that was the question -- or, rather, the answer that

Page 4404

 1     I tried to give.  To try to make myself understood:  After the war ended

 2     and the Dayton Accords were signed, they envisaged that people could

 3     return to the places where they lived earlier, and there was significant

 4     financial aid, international aid, that helped rebuild many of these

 5     places, so that some of the houses in Zepa, too, were rebuilt.  I went to

 6     Zepa after the war.  I also saw some photos, and I know that a new mosque

 7     was built.  So there are still people living there, but most of those

 8     people are elderly.  I don't think that there are many young people.

 9     Some of them live in Sarajevo, and they would only come and visit over

10     the weekend, but most of them are in the United States.

11        Q.   What's left for them in Zepa?

12        A.   Well, Zepa is barely a town, and probably to return to Bosnia, it

13     would be a problem to actually sustain oneself.  I don't know what these

14     people do for their living.  They're probably farmers, although there are

15     some people -- I just recalled that there was one person who returned to

16     Zepa and who started a small business, a small processing plant for

17     processing fruit and vegetables, so that some of the people from Zepa

18     work in that factory.  That is all I know about that.

19        Q.   The loss of those three prominent leaders, the destruction of the

20     mosque, the torching of the residences, how did that fit into the pattern

21     of the war that you've described that you experienced?

22        A.   Well, that was, so to speak, a pattern in the war in

23     Eastern Bosnia.

24        Q.   And this pattern, to what degree did that contribute to this fear

25     that you told the Trial Chamber about which was possessed by the civilian

Page 4405

 1     population when it was deciding whether or not to stay, whether it had a

 2     choice to stay, on the 25th of July, 1995?

 3        A.   Could you please repeat and clarify your question a bit?  I don't

 4     think I understood.

 5        Q.   Certainly, Witness.

 6        A.   Thank you.

 7        Q.   This pattern throughout the war you've told us about, the

 8     destruction of the mosque, torching of the buildings, the loss of your

 9     prominent leaders, to what degree did that pattern, the knowledge that

10     such things had happened before during the war, contribute to the fear

11     that was possessed by the civilian population as it decided what it would

12     do on the 25th of July, 1995?

13        A.   Well, if -- your question provides the answer to the key

14     question.  Where did this fear come from on the 25th of July, 1995, this

15     fear that the population had?  So preceding this, there was war and all

16     the events in Eastern Bosnia, and these people who survived, they knew

17     about it or they went through it themselves, and this is where that fear

18     had roots, the fear and apprehension that if they remained in Zepa, they

19     might be killed or mistreated.

20             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Witness.

21             I see we're at the break time, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  But Judge Mindua would like

23     to add a question.

24             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Thayer, my apologies.  I

25     would like to put a question to the witness.  I'm sure you understand

Page 4406

 1     that the testimony of this witness is very important as part of this

 2     trial.

 3             Witness, I actually have two short questions to put to you.  The

 4     first one is the following:  I'm talking about your departure from Zepa.

 5     You say that you left on the 26th of July with the first convoy.

 6             But I was wondering whether we shouldn't go into private session

 7     because we're going to talk about the witness.  So perhaps we should move

 8     to private session.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We just considered the possibility to continue

11     after the break, because we are running out of time, and then

12     Judge Mindua will put the specific question to the witness.

13             We have our first break now and resume quarter past 4.00.

14                           --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Mindua, please.

17             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.  I believe it

18     would be better to move into private session, because I would like to

19     talk about things that concern the witness, personally.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4407











11 Pages 4407-4408 redacted. Private session.















Page 4409

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, that was not only the break, but also

19     a major interruption.  My apologies.  Please carry on your

20     examination-in-chief.

21             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And certainly no

22     apologies necessary from the Trial Chamber for these very helpful

23     questions.  I want to follow up on one question from His Honour

24     Judge Mindua.

25        Q.   When you answered his question a moment ago, and I think we'll be

Page 4410

 1     able to stay in open session for this, about why it is you think that you

 2     were spared, you referred to your several meetings with General Mladic

 3     being videotaped.  Do you see any significance in the fact that these

 4     videotapes were a matter of public broadcast during these days

 5     immediately upon their recording and that, therefore, your existence was

 6     known widely during this time --

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before you answer --

 8             MR. THAYER:

 9        Q.   -- with respect to the issue of you being spared?

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- Mr. Tolimir.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good afternoon to everybody in the

12     courtroom.

13             May God's peace reign in this house.  May God's will be done in

14     these proceedings, and not necessarily mine.

15             Mr. President, this was a leading question.  The witness has been

16     asked to provide an answer that would suit the Prosecutor.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, perhaps you should rephrase your

18     question.  It is not in evidence yet that these videotapes were broadcast

19     after the events.  Perhaps you can put the question in another way.

20             MR. THAYER:  Very well, Mr. President.

21        Q.   Sir, in your answer to His Honour Judge Mindua's question, you

22     made specific reference to videotapes.  What relevance does the videotape

23     of your meetings with various VRS commanders and high-level officers have

24     to your answer to the question about why you think you were spared, if

25     any?

Page 4411

 1        A.   I said that that was my assumption, that that may well be the

 2     reason why I was spared.  Obviously, nobody ever confirmed that.  I

 3     really can't corroborate that, and I can't provide any comments upon

 4     that.  It's nothing more but an assumption on my part.

 5        Q.   I want to take you now, Witness, back to 25 July for a couple of

 6     follow-up questions.

 7             First, you told the Trial Chamber that the injured, the wounded,

 8     were the first to be taken out of enclave.  Was there someone in

 9     particular from the Zepa community who oversaw that process or who was

10     responsible for participating in that process?

11        A.   There were two local physicians in Zepa at the time,

12     Benjamin Kulovac and -- let me try and remember the other name.  The

13     other name is Nijaz Stitkovac.  They were both doctors who worked in

14     Rogatica before the war.  As far as I know, the preparations for the

15     transport and assistance with the transport or the departure of the

16     wounded was supervised by Mr. Benjamin Kulovac, who was a doctor, and he

17     actually left with the first convoy which took away the wounded.  And I

18     believe that they were transported to Sarajevo and not to Kladanj.

19        Q.   And to your knowledge, who supplied the buses and trucks which

20     were used to remove the Muslim population from Zepa?

21        A.   All the buses and trucks, as far as I can remember, were supplied

22     by the VRS.  I don't know who escorted them, whether it was UNPROFOR

23     soldiers or somebody else, but, in any case, the vehicles were supplied

24     by the Army of Republika Srpska.

25        Q.   And would you please describe the actual physical process by

Page 4412

 1     which the population of Zepa was bussed and trucked out of the enclave?

 2     If it involved stages, please explain that to the Trial Chamber.

 3        A.   After we had agreed on the process, I was not directly involved

 4     in the process of preparations and making evacuation lists.  However, as

 5     far as I can remember, this is how the whole process went on:  People

 6     came, lists were made.  For example, a list was made for one bus.  And I

 7     believe that the lists were compiled by Amir Imamovic or perhaps

 8     Mehmed Hajric.  I really don't know who the lists were handed over to.

 9     And when the buses were full, for example, when 10 of them were full,

10     those buses would start leaving towards Boksanica, probably escorted by

11     UNPROFOR.  As far as I can remember from a video, there was also a number

12     of open-topped trucks which also transported the population according to

13     the same principle; first to Boksanica, and there the population was

14     taken over by other buses, and those buses had not been able to enter

15     Zepa.  They couldn't negotiate the road.

16             From Boksanica, the transportation proceeded along the route

17     Borike, Rogatica, Podromanija, Han Pijesak, Vlasenica, and finally in the

18     direction of Kladanj.  I don't know exactly how the route went.  And

19     there, the population got off the buses.  And as far as I know from the

20     stories of those who had been on the buses, they proceeded for a couple

21     of kilometres on foot until they reached the lines of the BiH Army.

22     There, they were received by the members of the BiH Army, probably, and I

23     don't know anything else about the organisation of their accommodation

24     there.  Some proceeded towards Tuzla, Zenica, and Kladanj.  That was

25     roughly the way things were organised, as far as I can remember.

Page 4413

 1        Q.   So just to make it clear, the population is placed on trucks and

 2     buses which are driven up from the center of Zepa to Boksanica; correct

 3     so far?

 4        A.   Yes, Boksanica was on the way.  It was a point on that axis, the

 5     evacuation axis.

 6        Q.   And then at Boksanica, what exactly happened to the people who

 7     had just been brought up out of Zepa on those trucks and buses?  What

 8     exactly happened at Boksanica at that point, just so that the record is

 9     entirely clear?

10        A.   Well, save for the last convoy, which departed on the 27th, I

11     will tell you how the whole process evolved.  Of course, I was not

12     present and so on and so forth.  However, if the convoy consisted of

13     buses only, the buses pulled over briefly -- I don't know whether there

14     were UNPROFOR escorts on each of the buses and I don't know whether the

15     10-bus convoy had an UNPROFOR vehicle in front of it and one behind it.

16     In any case, the convoy did not have any reason to stop for any longer,

17     and they proceeded along the route that I just described.  If there were

18     six buses and four trucks in the convoy, then I believe that the entire

19     convoy waited for the people from the four trucks to be transferred on to

20     either three or four buses who had been waiting at Boksanica.  And then

21     the convoy was re-established and proceeded again along the same route

22     that I've described for you.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, may I ask the witness to tell us

24     which part of this evidence, your observation you told the Chamber, was

25     your own observation, and if you were not an eye-witness of these events,

Page 4414

 1     the buses, the convoys, can you tell us the source of your knowledge so

 2     that we can make a distinction?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  First of all, let me tell you

 4     what I saw, exactly, with my own two eyes.

 5             First of all, I saw -- when the first convoy was being formed in

 6     Zepa, I was there on the 25th of July.  I joined one of those convoys and

 7     arrived in Boksanica, and that's how things were, speaking from memory.

 8     And the rest I told you, when I described the procedure, that's what I

 9     heard from the population of Zepa, who had left Zepa in that way.  I saw

10     the buses arriving, I saw the lists being compiled, I saw people getting

11     on, and then I spent a day or a day and a half in Boksanica and I saw

12     that each convoy pulled over just briefly and then proceeded.  And when I

13     described the procedure involving trucks and buses, I assumed that that

14     was how things transpired because that was the only logical way for them

15     to take place.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for that.

17             Mr. Thayer.

18             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19        Q.   Again, focusing on 25 July, sir, on that first day, relative to

20     the number of the civilian population in Zepa, did a lot of the

21     population leave that first day, only some, very few?  Can you just

22     describe for the Trial Chamber what portion of the population left the

23     first day?

24        A.   Well, I can't give you a percentage point, but I do know that on

25     that first day, not too many people left, and this for the reasons that I

Page 4415

 1     mentioned earlier.  People were still afraid and leery of going to the

 2     point where they were supposed to gather and get on the buses and leave.

 3     So I think that on that first day, it wasn't a large number of people who

 4     boarded those buses.  I can't really tell you what the number was or what

 5     the percentages were.  I wouldn't want to guess here.

 6        Q.   That's fine, Witness.  Where did you spend the night of 25 July?

 7        A.   This -- are you referring to the night of the 25, going on to the

 8     26?

 9        Q.   I am.

10        A.   After I returned from the meeting which I had with General Mladic

11     at Brezova Ravan, I remember that I spent another hour or so in the

12     UNPROFOR compound in Zepa, and then I went to the house where I slept

13     while I was in Zepa.  That's in Sipkov Dol [as interpreted] village to

14     the north of the center of Zepa.  I slept a couple of hours there, and

15     that was my last night there in the area.  In the morning of the next

16     day, I went back to the center of Zepa.

17        Q.   Witness, the transcript is showing the location as Sipkov Dol.

18     Is that the correct name?

19        A.   No, that's an error.  It should be "Stitkov," S-t-i-t-k-o-v, Dol.

20     It's okay now.  Not a double L, but -- okay.

21        Q.   Now, last question about the 25th, sir.  You told us that

22     Colonel Palic put his family on one of the convoys leaving that day, and

23     that he then returned the next day, the 26th.  You also told us that you

24     saw General Tolimir in the center of Zepa on the 25th of July.  Do you

25     recall whether he left the center of Zepa that day?  And if so, under

Page 4416

 1     what circumstances?

 2        A.   Yes, I think I recall that.  It was already getting dark, and

 3     I think that Colonel Avdo Palic got in the car that was General Tolimir's

 4     car.  He used it.  This was not in the centre of Zepa.  It was perhaps a

 5     kilometre from the center of Zepa, in the direction of Brezova Ravan, as

 6     far as I can recall.  He left with this last convoy, so that both

 7     Colonel Palic and General Tolimir left Zepa in that car together.  This

 8     was on the 25th of July, 1995.

 9             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  Let's take a look at some video.  And if we

10     could just have a moment to get everything queued up properly, please.

11     Thank you.

12             Mr. President, for the record, we'll be looking at 65 ter 6417.

13     And for the first minute or so, it should not be broadcast, please.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, it would be helpful if you could stop

15     at that point in time when we can start to broadcast it.

16             MR. THAYER:  Yes.  Will do, Mr. President.  And for the record,

17     we're starting at 35 minutes 32 seconds of this exhibit.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             MR. THAYER:  We're just going to do it one more time.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             MR. THAYER:

22        Q.   Sir, we've stopped at 35 minutes 42 seconds.  What does this

23     video footage capture here?  What's going on in this footage from the

24     24th of July, 1995?

25        A.   Well, this must be the footage when I was there to sign the

Page 4417

 1     documents -- the document on disarming, as it was called.  That's what it

 2     depicts, I assume, because I can't see myself there.

 3        Q.   And we'll get there in a moment.  In the meantime, can you tell

 4     us who is depicted in this still, moving from right to left, sir?

 5        A.   From right to left:  On the far right is General Mladic.  Then we

 6     see General Tolimir in the middle.  And we can only see a partial image

 7     of this man to the far left, and I believe that was Lieutenant-Colonel

 8     Rajko Kusic.

 9             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  We can please continue rolling the tape.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             MR. THAYER:

12        Q.   Can you recognise who's depicted in this still, moving from left

13     to right?  There are two figures that are visible, and this is at

14     35 minutes 50 seconds.

15        A.   On the left-hand side, that's me.  And on the right side, that's

16     Colonel Sejmon Dudnjik.

17             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  Please continue playing the tape.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Stop for a moment.  Thank you.

20             Mr. Tolimir.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence has not

22     received any audio, nor did we see the transcript from this meeting and

23     this video footage.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You are perfectly right.  The Chamber is in the

25     same position as you.  We didn't receive anything of that you mentioned.

Page 4418

 1             Mr. Thayer.

 2             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, there is no audio of this footage.

 3     We only have it as videotape footage, without audio.

 4             And we may move into broadcast mode again, please.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, we do, and please carry on.

 6             MR. THAYER:  We are now at 36 minutes 12 seconds, for the record.

 7             Please continue playing the tape.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             MR. THAYER:  We've stopped at 36 minutes 42 seconds.

10        Q.   Can you tell us, sir, what this location is and anything about

11     what you see in this frame here?

12        A.   This is the center of Zepa.  I think this is on the 25th of July,

13     when the evacuation began.  The soldiers that we see in uniforms, I

14     believe these were escorts of General Tolimir's, who was in Zepa at the

15     time.  And behind them, I think we see a -- the building which housed the

16     medical station and some apartments above, living quarters.

17             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  May we continue rolling the videotape,

18     please.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             MR. THAYER:  We've paused at 36 minutes 57 seconds.

21        Q.   First of all, can you tell us what we've been seeing for the last

22     couple of seconds in this footage?  We can obviously see a lot of people

23     gathered around.

24        A.   Yes.  These were the people who were getting on the buses to be

25     evacuated.

Page 4419

 1        Q.   And do you recognise anybody in particular in this still?  And if

 2     so, can you describe anything that that person is wearing?

 3        A.   Yes.  We can see Colonel Avdo Palic, who is wearing a military

 4     uniform.  That's his top.  He is in the center of the photograph, between

 5     the two women.  That's the person who is wearing a uniform, a uniform --

 6     a blouse with a uniform pattern.  That's Colonel Avdo Palic.

 7             MR. THAYER:  And if we may continue playing the tape, please.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             MR. THAYER:  We've paused at 37 minutes 8 seconds.

10        Q.   Can you identify for the Trial Chamber who this man is looking

11     directly into the camera?

12        A.   That's Colonel Avdo Palic.

13             MR. THAYER:  Please continue playing the tape.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             MR. THAYER:  We've paused at 37 minutes 21 seconds.

16        Q.   First, I want to ask you, sir:  You've testified about the mosque

17     in Zepa.  Is the mosque or part of the mosque visible in this still at

18     37 minutes 21 seconds?

19        A.   Yes, that's the mosque we see here.

20        Q.   Can you describe where it is in this -- in this still?  And just

21     describe what part of the mosque we can see, just for the record.

22        A.   Well, going from left to right, the first building that we can

23     see is the farmers' co-op building.  It was in the center of Zepa.

24     That's where I also worked, where the executive committee was.  And then

25     behind that building, going from left to right, you can see part of the

Page 4420

 1     mosque and part of its minaret.  So it's the building behind the first

 2     building on the left-hand side.

 3        Q.   And on that building that you've identified as the farmers'

 4     cooperative building, there is some discolouration or what appear to be

 5     some kind of marks.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber what that -- what

 6     those are?

 7        A.   Well, these were marks left by shrapnel, shell fragments,

 8     probably of a recent date, but some of them were probably from 1992, from

 9     as early as 1992.  So these are shrapnel pockmarks.  Now, the portion

10     where there is some mortar missing, I'm not sure whether that was caused

11     by shrapnel or whether it is just because this was an old building.  But

12     where you see the pockmarks, that's -- those are marks from shrapnel.

13             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  Please continue rolling the tape, please.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             MR. THAYER:  We have paused at 37 minutes 29 seconds.

16        Q.   Can you recognise anybody in this still, sir?

17        A.   Yes.  The person in the white shirt, that's Mehmed Hajric, the

18     village hodza and the then-president of the municipality of Zepa.

19             MR. THAYER:  Please continue rolling the tape.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             MR. THAYER:  We've paused at 37 minutes 47 seconds.

22        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber: first, what the location is;

23     second, what you believe the date is; and, third, if you can identify who

24     the individuals are in this still.

25        A.   I think that this was on the 25th of July, 1995.  The location is

Page 4421

 1     the center of Zepa, just outside the UNPROFOR compound.  You can see the

 2     sandbags in the background.  I believe that's the spot where the UNPROFOR

 3     guards stood guard.  And you can also see in this still, from left to

 4     right, General Tolimir shaking hands with Colonel Avdo Palic.  Between

 5     them, we see Benjamin Kulovac.  And to the far right, you can just barely

 6     see that there is someone there.  It's possible that that was me.

 7             MR. THAYER:  And let's finish playing this portion of the tape,

 8     please.  Thank you.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             MR. THAYER:  And for the record, we've stopped at 38 minutes and

11     6 seconds.

12        Q.   Sir, are you okay?  Do you need a break?

13        A.   No, it's all right.  We can move on.

14        Q.   I want to take you to 26th of July.  You've already told the

15     Court, in answer to some of my questions and some of the questions from

16     the Trial Chamber, about some of the events that occurred that day.  Did

17     you -- first of all, did you see General Tolimir that day?  And if so,

18     approximately when and where?

19        A.   I'm not absolutely certain, but I think that I saw

20     General Tolimir again in the center of Zepa because he had already

21     arrived for further evacuation, for the continuation of the evacuation

22     process.  I think I saw him, but I'm not 100 per cent sure.  I think it's

23     possible that we met in the center of Zepa.  Maybe we said hello, but

24     I think I saw him in the center of Zepa also on the morning of the

25     26th of July.

Page 4422

 1        Q.   You previously told us that you spoke with Colonel Palic

 2     sometime, I believe, that morning, after he had returned from

 3     accompanying the convoy to Kladanj.  First of all, do I have that

 4     correct?

 5        A.   Yes, you understood that, you got that right.  On the 26th, in

 6     the morning.  I can't tell you exactly what time it was.  9.00 or 10.00,

 7     about that time.

 8        Q.   During the period of time, for example, from, let's say, the

 9     19th through the 26th of July, which I believe you told us was the last

10     time you saw Colonel Palic, how often were you in contact with

11     Colonel Palic, say, during the prior week, the 19th through the 26th,

12     just to give the Trial Chamber an idea?

13        A.   Well, not too often, I think.  I did meet him on the 19th, I'm

14     sure, because that was when that -- those talks were, and then maybe a

15     few more times after the 19th, up until the 25th.  But not too often,

16     because as far as I know, Colonel Palic was not in Zepa for the most

17     time.  He was up in the mountains, where the Communications Centre was,

18     so that I'm only certain about the 19th of July, that I saw him on that

19     day.  That is the day when we had the talk with General Mladic.  As for

20     the rest, I think we probably did meet, but I would just be guessing.

21        Q.   And, sir, at this time on the 26th of July, did you have

22     information as to where the able-bodied or military-aged men of Zepa were

23     located?

24        A.   Well, yes, I think that I received that information.  I heard

25     about it from those people who had come to see their family members off,

Page 4423

 1     and all the soldiers, all the military -- all the able-bodied men were on

 2     Zepa Mountain.  That's a mountain to the north of the center of Zepa.

 3        Q.   And you told us that, in response to General Mladic's demand that

 4     you go to Boksanica to guarantee General Tolimir's safety, that you, in

 5     fact, boarded one of the convoy buses and went up to Boksanica.  Can you

 6     tell the Trial Chamber what you did while you were at Boksanica on the

 7     26th of July, and with whom, if anybody, you met, spoke with, or dealt

 8     with while you were there at that check-point?  You told us what you saw,

 9     in terms of the buses, but did you meet anybody in particular or have any

10     conversations that you can tell the Trial Chamber about?

11        A.   As far as I can remember, when I got to Boksanica, I spent most

12     of the time with General Mladic.  I believe that at one point, there

13     were, as far as I can remember, some other generals of the

14     Republika Srpska Army.  I think General Krstic was there and possibly

15     General Gvero.  This was the day -- the remainder of the 26th of July,

16     this was the day when this was rather -- there was a relaxed atmosphere.

17     I spent that night in an UNPROFOR hut.  And then on the 27th, I think I

18     was still there up until noon time or so, but I don't know whom I met

19     there on that day.  I think on a couple of occasions I saw

20     Colonel Dudnjik there as well.

21        Q.   You've referred, I think, a couple of times today now to a -- and

22     I'll use your words, a relaxed atmosphere.  Witness, how relaxed were

23     you?  I mean, again, tell the Trial Chamber what your state of mind was

24     when you use the phrase "relaxed atmosphere."

25        A.   Well, look, when I said "relaxed," when I said "relaxed

Page 4424

 1     atmosphere," of course, the key thing that had still remained unresolved

 2     in all that was the most important thing for us, and that was the issue

 3     of able-bodied men, soldiers.  When I said "relaxed," that meant that

 4     during that time, nobody had insisted on surrender.  That's why I said

 5     "relaxed," because I wasn't tense.

 6             I was at UNPROFOR, formally.  However, all the time I was with

 7     the top leaders of the Army of Republika Srpska, and all the time what

 8     was on my mind was the destiny of the able-bodied men of Zepa.  However,

 9     during that period of time, nobody actually mentioned anything about the

10     fact that the military had to surrender.  There was no pressure put on me

11     to bear.  That's why I use this term "relaxed atmosphere."

12        Q.   Now, you said you were at UNPROFOR, at this check-point at

13     Boksanica.  Which party was in control of that location?

14        A.   That was an UNPROFOR check-point.  However, I believe that,

15     effectively, the VRS controlled the situation and that they behaved as if

16     they owned the place at the moment when I was there.

17        Q.   When the buses that you already talked about arrived at

18     Boksanica, having come up from the center of Zepa, did you observe

19     General Mladic do anything with respect to those buses?

20        A.   I saw that General Mladic entered every -- each and every bus.  I

21     believe that he said something to the passengers.  It didn't take long,

22     perhaps a minute or two.  But as far as I can remember, he entered every

23     bus in the convoy, and that was the convoy that I joined to leave Zepa

24     and to get to Boksanica.

25        Q.   You also mentioned seeing General Krstic there with

Page 4425

 1     General Mladic and General Gvero.  Do you recall having any conversation

 2     with him?  And if so, do you recall what you talked about?

 3        A.   Yes.  I don't know whether on the 26th or on some other date,

 4     General Mladic was standing a bit further -- or, actually, the General

 5     was standing a bit further from the place where General Mladic and I were

 6     sitting, and Mladic told me, This is General Krstic.  And then he said to

 7     General Krstic, Krle, come on, say hello, and introduced me by saying,

 8     This is Hamdija.  And General Mladic also told me that General Krstic was

 9     in charge of the Zepa operation, that he was the commander of the Zepa

10     operation.  Then General Krstic and I were introduced.  We exchanged a

11     few words.  We realised that we hailed from the same area.  He was born

12     in Vlasenica, which borders on Han Pijesak.  Our meeting wasn't very

13     long, and this is as much as I can remember about General Krstic.

14        Q.   You also told us that you recall perhaps seeing Colonel Dudnjik

15     up there during this period of time at Boksanica.  Do you recall what

16     Colonel Dudnjik told you he had been told by the Serbs if NATO used air

17     power against them?

18        A.   Colonel Dudnjik seemed apprehensive to me, and he told me that

19     the Serbs had told him that they would kill him if NATO used air power

20     against them.  He was a bit scared, I would say, in that situation.  Not

21     a bit; rather scared.

22        Q.   I'm going to show you some video shortly, sir.

23             MR. THAYER:  May we go into private session just for a quick

24     moment, Mr. President?

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.  Please, private.

Page 4426

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4427











11 Pages 4427-4428 redacted. Private session.















Page 4429

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session.

17             MR. THAYER:

18        Q.   Now, on Sunday, during our proofing session, do you recall seeing

19     some video which the Prosecution had not obtained at the time of your

20     2007 testimony?  Do you recall that, sir?

21        A.   Yes, yes, I recall that video.  But let me come back quickly to

22     what was just said.

23             I confirm everything, but I need to apologise for not answering

24     immediately.  It was three and a half years ago when I provided that

25     testimony.  But at this point, I would like to confirm everything that I

Page 4430

 1     stated before.  But I would kindly ask you to be very precise when

 2     putting questions to me.

 3             Okay, to come back to this, on Sunday I saw the video-clips which

 4     are new, which had never been presented to me as Prosecutor's evidence.

 5        Q.   And how did this video, which we did not have at the time of your

 6     2007 testimony, correspond to your recollection of these events; for

 7     example, the events that we just saw described in your testimony from

 8     2007?

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I would

11     like to apologise to Mr. Thayer.

12             Maybe we should see it first, instead of basing questions on

13     something that the Prosecutor and the witness saw in private.  The

14     Trial Chamber would benefit from that, and the witness would also benefit

15     from actually seeing the evidence in question.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

17             Mr. Thayer.

18             MR. THAYER:  I think it's no surprise to anybody, Mr. President,

19     that what I'm doing is just laying the foundation for the very video that

20     is clearly coming next.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's simple to understand your question.  The

22     answer related to that video, nobody knows yet in the courtroom.

23             MR. THAYER:  Yes, Mr. President.  That's why I'm trying to lay

24     the foundation, what he testified previously, what the video is that the

25     Defence has long had and has long been described to the Defence, and

Page 4431

 1     which the Defence is well aware of.  That is -- the simple task I'm

 2     trying to perform here is just to lay that foundation for the

 3     Trial Chamber before I play that video for the Trial Chamber.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Carry on.

 5             MR. THAYER:

 6        Q.   So my question to you, Witness, is:  Having seen that video on

 7     Sunday, how did that correspond to your recollection of these events as

 8     you testified about them back in 2007?

 9        A.   Well, at least in that part, the video tallies with what I

10     remember.  However, documentary evidence, be it video-clips or something

11     else, in view of the time lapse, jog one's memory.  The events took place

12     15 years ago, as you know.  The video-clip that I saw on Sunday tallies

13     with what I remember.

14             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, the video, itself, is approximately

15     30 minutes.  May I propose that we take the second break now, and that

16     way we don't need to interrupt it.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

18             We will have our second break now and resume 10 minutes past

19     6.00.

20                           --- Recess taken at 5.40 p.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 6.14 p.m.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

23             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24             We may go into private session very briefly, please.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

Page 4432

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4433

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please carry on.

18             MR. THAYER:  For the record, we're resuming where we left off at

19     38 minutes 6 seconds.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "If everything has to go so better

22     here, so that we can --"

23             "I like those little bit silly, you know, who listen and work."

24             "So go ahead.  Film it.  Go there, man.  Shave and come over

25     here.  I need you."

Page 4434

 1             "What am I going to shave with?"

 2             "Well, here you have it now.  Wait a sec.  Come and thank me."

 3             "Thank you, Uncle."

 4             "When can the 'Drinski' magazine come and take an interview?  The

 5     20th edition is coming out tomorrow or the day after tomorrow, so if

 6     possible --"

 7             THE ACCUSED:  Please.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could we please hear

10     the interpretation a little louder, because I can't really hear the

11     videotape.  Could the interpreter just perhaps interpret or read this

12     out?  Thank you.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'll forward this question to the Registrar.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Or translate the subtitles for me.

15                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We discussed the following possibility.  I was

17     told that the voice is very limited in B/C/S, so that it is, even for the

18     interpreters, not so easy to understand.  They will try either to read it

19     again in B/C/S or to translate from English, and that would be the

20     request for the interpreters, if they are able to do that.  I'm not sure

21     about that.  I think we can rely on the interpreters, that they will do

22     their very best.  Thank you.

23             Please carry on, Mr. Thayer.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  We cannot translate from English because we can

25     only translate what we hear, Your Honours.  This is a remark from the

Page 4435

 1     interpreters.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Okay, thank you very much.  Then, in that case,

 3     we would be happy if you could try to read or listen to the low voice of

 4     the original speakers.  Thank you very much.

 5             MR. THAYER:  May I proceed, Mr. President?

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, please.

 7             MR. THAYER:

 8        Q.   Sir, we've paused at 39 minutes 22 seconds.  Can you identify who

 9     the man in uniform with the cigarette in his hand is, who is captured

10     here on this video still?

11        A.   That should be General Gvero, and I say "should be" because while

12     I was there and during the meetings at check-point 2, I never learned the

13     name, nor did I later connect it, but recently I was informed that this

14     was General Gvero.

15        Q.   Well, do you remember seeing this individual, whatever his name

16     might be?  Do you recall this individual being present while you were at

17     Boksanica on the 26th of July, sir?

18        A.   Yes, he was present.

19             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  Let's continue playing the tape, please.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Where you going to be tomorrow?"

22             "Here, he can come today and I can give an interview, say a few

23     words."

24             "That's the Drina Corps magazine?"

25             "No, no, no, there has to be a decision made.  Don't take it upon

Page 4436

 1     yourself.  The decision has already been made."

 2             "Please don't praise the lieutenant-colonel only.  They can do

 3     that now.  'Drinski,' too.  Only "Drinski,' too, please."

 4             "It goes without saying ..."

 5             "Well, Vinko, fuck it.  Furtula is the man for the magazine.  If

 6     each one -- in each magazine he is on the front page.  He gives

 7     interviews all the time."

 8             Interpreter's note:  Because there are several voices speaking,

 9     we are unable to interpret them all at the same time.

10             [Voiceover] "We can introduce him for the general public, for

11     The Hague."

12             "Did you hear this, little one?"

13             "Come on, I'm sorry.  Where is this Russian man?  Have him bring

14     fuel.  Bring him up, quickly."

15             MR. THAYER:  We've paused at 40 minutes 19 seconds.

16        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber who this man in uniform is in this

17     still?

18        A.   That's General Krstic.

19             MR. THAYER:  Continue playing the video, please.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Well, come on, have him go.  Fuck

22     him.  And you go again, bit by bit, and you make it again."

23             "I said in line, in line."

24             "Hey, Rajko, I don't want to see any of these soldiers there, no

25     one."

Page 4437

 1             "How is the Sarajevo man doing?  Are you from Foca?"

 2             "Huh?"

 3             "My folks are from Foca."

 4             "Well, the one with the glasses, he should go and shave.  You

 5     know, he can't stop commanding."

 6             "You're lucky to be in Serb territory.  Imagine you are down

 7     there with the Turks now."

 8             "Here are your soldiers as well.  Wartime condition."

 9             "Fuck the officer in charge.  He doesn't know you're here.  Go.

10     Well, I'm giving you the permission.  Come on, fill it up.  My, Dudnjik,

11     your APCs are good.  I won't even repaint them.  You and I -- we'll just

12     write on it, 'To General Mladic from Dudnjik.'  Come on, give it to me.

13     I will sign this."

14             MR. THAYER:  We've paused at 42 minutes and 7 seconds.

15        Q.   Sir, there's a young woman sitting to the left of General Krstic.

16     That would be General Krstic's left in this frame.  Can you tell the

17     Trial Chamber who you understood her to be?

18        A.   She was an interpreter, General Mladic's interpreter.  And in his

19     later talks with General Rupert Smith and, I believe, the CNN team, she

20     interpreted for General Mladic.  I don't know her name, but I remember

21     her face very well.

22             MR. THAYER:  Let's continue to play the videotape, please.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "It's the 26th today."

25             "Don't."

Page 4438

 1             MR. THAYER:  We've paused at 43 minutes 10 seconds.

 2        Q.   Can you recognise anybody in this frame, sir?

 3        A.   At the very far right, we can see Rajko Kusic,

 4     lieutenant-colonel, the commander of the Rogatica Brigade of the Army of

 5     Republika Srpska.  And I remember the face, but I don't know the name of

 6     the person who is standing next to Rajko Kusic.  I remember his face,

 7     though.

 8             MR. THAYER:  Thank you.

 9             May we continue playing the video.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Serjoza, you go ahead.  Don't be

12     afraid.  Whoever stops you, you show him this and say, I'm transporting

13     fuel for the Serbs in Rogatica.  Bring five fuel tanks.  Good luck, and

14     give it to me when we finish all of it off.  Give it to me.  Let's shake

15     hands."

16             MR. THAYER:  We've paused at 43 minutes 49 seconds.

17        Q.   Sir, the young soldier shaking hands with General Mladic in this

18     still, do you know what army -- what military he belongs to?

19        A.   He is an UNPROFOR soldier, a Ukrainian, and I believe we heard

20     his name as well, Serjoza.

21             MR. THAYER:  Let's continue playing the videotape, please.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Go to Rogatica and keep on driving.

24     And once you transport five fuel tanks and when you fuel up the pump,

25     come and report to me.  Smith has no choice.  Smith started -- get lost,

Page 4439

 1     Smith.  You do as I say to you.  Rajko forced them to -- are they going

 2     to bomb us?"

 3             "No way."

 4             "How did they hit the Puch last time?  It's your fault, not

 5     theirs."

 6             "I know, but I placed it on the road on purpose."

 7             "That's good.  It was smart of you."

 8             "None of the tanks were hit, only the Puch."

 9             "Krle says that he has a paint shop for these vehicles."

10             "No, this doesn't have to be repainted.  We have to -- man, why

11     waste paint."

12             "But General, sir --

13             "For God's sake, so be it, man.  It's ours.  We need it.  If we

14     go to war against the Turks.  You don't understand my idea."

15             "The Turks are coming.  Come over here, boys, in Dzemal's summer

16     house.  Did Dzemal have one at Borike as well; right?"

17             "Of course he did, but he had bad luck.  He [indiscernible]

18     towards the [indiscernible], the key.  I didn't take anything from them."

19             "All of you in the line.  Three from the other side, four over

20     there.  Fall in.  Come on, boy, come on.  You go ahead, you little --

21     over there, hold your weapons like that.  Okay.  Fall in line, fall in

22     line, I said.  Fall in line and spread.  Okay."

23             "Rajko, prepare a small car."

24             MR. THAYER:  Can we go into private session for a moment,

25     Mr. President, please?

Page 4440

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

 2                           [Private session]

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4441

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back to open session.

 7             MR. THAYER:  We're at 46 minutes 4 seconds.

 8             If we could continue playing the tape, please.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Have a safe journey.  Okay."

11             "Where are you, Matic?  Mati, where is he?  This bus can go.

12     Tell them this bus is leaving.  It has to be loaded over there."

13             "Good afternoon."

14             "Good afternoon.  How are you?  Are you scared?  I'm

15     General Mladic.  Don't be afraid.  You are all going to be transported to

16     Kladanj.  The ones who left yesterday crossed over safely.  Good luck to

17     you."

18             "Thank you."

19             "Good afternoon.  How are you?"

20             "Fine."

21             "I'm General Mladic.  I wish you a safe journey."

22             "Thank you."

23             "And good health."

24             "Good afternoon.  How are you?  Are you worried?  Don't be

25     afraid.  Everything's going to be all right.  I'm General Mladic.  I wish

Page 4442

 1     you a safe journey."

 2             "Thank you.  We have to be worried since we're on the

 3     [indiscernible].  Do you have, by any chance, any pills for

 4     car sickness".

 5             "We don't.  Don't worry, you'll be okay.  They won't -- they'll

 6     be fine.  Open the windows.  All right, they will adapt."

 7             "Good afternoon."

 8             "Good afternoon.  How are you?"

 9             "Fine, fine, man.  How are you?"

10             "I'm General Mladic.  I wish you a safe journey."

11             "Thank you.  You too."

12             "Don't be afraid.  Everything will be fine."

13             "Thank you."

14             "Good afternoon.  How are you?"

15             "Fine.  How are you?"

16             "I'm fine, thank you.  I'm General Mladic.  I wish you a safe

17     journey, and don't be afraid.  You are all going to be safely

18     transported."

19             "Thank you."

20             "Goodbye."

21             "Don't put out the lights.  Start it immediately, and as soon as

22     you go, you go."

23             "Good afternoon.  How are you?  You will be moved from this bus

24     to this bigger one, and then you can proceed.  This bus is taller, so it

25     needs to bring those from down here in Zepa.  I'm General Mladic.  Don't

Page 4443

 1     be afraid.  I wish you a safe journey."

 2             "Thank you."

 3             "Goodbye."

 4             "Good afternoon.  How are you?"

 5             "Fine.  Thanks for asking."

 6             "This is not good.  I am General Mladic.  I wish you a safe

 7     journey.  Don't be afraid.  You will be transported safely to Kladanj."

 8             "Thank you."

 9             "Good luck, and goodbye."

10             "How old is your baby?  Is it a girl?  Go ahead, take care."

11             "Good afternoon."

12             "Good afternoon."

13             "How are you?"

14             "It's okay."

15             "Don't be afraid.  I'm General Mladic.  You are all going safely

16     to Kladanj."

17             "Thank you."

18             "Goodbye."

19             "Goodbye."

20             "Good afternoon."

21             "Good afternoon."

22             "How are you?"

23             "We are fine.  Thank you for asking.

24             "There's nothing fine about this bus."

25             "That's right."

Page 4444

 1             "Don't be afraid.  You're all going to be transported to Kladanj.

 2     I'm General Mladic.

 3             "Thank you."

 4             "It will be better."

 5             "Thank you."

 6             "Thank you."

 7             "Goodbye."

 8             "Goodbye, and take care.  I've saved you and your children, and

 9     your people did not save ours in 1992.  Take care.  We're going to see

10     each other again."

11             "Thank you."

12             "Good luck."

13             "Good luck."

14             "Thank you."

15             "Good afternoon.  How are you?"

16             "Fine.  It's only too hot."

17             "Do you know who I am?  I am General Mladic.  Welcome, and I wish

18     you a safe journey.  You are all going to be transported safely to

19     Kladanj."

20             "Thank you."

21             "And don't point your guns at us anymore.  Good luck to you."

22             "Thank you."

23             "Good afternoon.  How are you?"

24             "It's okay."

25             "Do you know who I am?  I'm General Mladic.  You are going safely

Page 4445

 1     to Kladanj.  Put your arm down.  Don't worry about anything.  I wish you

 2     a safe journey."

 3             "Thank you."

 4             "Good afternoon."

 5             "Good afternoon."

 6             "How are you?"

 7             "Well, fine.  How are you?"

 8             "You'll be transported safely to Kladanj.  Don't be afraid of

 9     anything.  I'm General Mladic."

10             "Thank you."

11             "I wish I was safe journey, and goodbye."

12             "Thank you.  Take care, goodbye."

13             "Good afternoon.  How are you?  You wanted to see me, and now you

14     are looking at me.  I'm General Mladic.  You are all going safely to

15     Kladanj.  Don't be afraid of anything.  I wish I was safe journey."

16             "Thank you."

17             "Goodbye."

18             "Goodbye."

19             "Good afternoon.  Is it very hot?  Film them, not me."

20             "Go ahead."

21             "You wanted to see me for a long time, and now you're looking at

22     me.  I'm General Mladic.  You're all going to be transported safely to

23     Kladanj.  Thank you very much.  I wish you a safe journey, and we wish

24     you a pleasant stay.  And goodbye."

25             "Goodbye."

Page 4446

 1             "Don't be afraid."

 2             "Good afternoon."

 3             "Good afternoon."

 4             "How are you?  Film them, all of them.  Well, they have been

 5     telling you stories about me, and now you have a chance to see me.  I'm

 6     General Mladic.  You are all going safely to Kladanj.  Don't be afraid of

 7     anything."

 8             "Thank you."

 9             "I wish you a safe journey."

10             "Thank you."

11             "And goodbye."

12             "Thank you and goodbye."

13             "Good afternoon."

14             "Good afternoon."

15             "How are you?"

16             "Fine."

17             "They have told you so many things so far.  You have a chance to

18     see me now.  I'm General Mladic.  You are going safely to Kladanj.  I

19     wish you a safe journey, and goodbye."

20             "Thank you."

21             "Don't be afraid of anything.  I am not like the guy they

22     described on radio and television.  I'm saving you and your children, and

23     our children were killed in the Zepa Canyon in 1992.  Goodbye."

24             "Good afternoon.  You have been hearing stories about me for a

25     long time.  Now look at me.  I'm General Mladic.  There are able-bodied

Page 4447

 1     men among you.  You are all safe, and you're all going to be transported

 2     to Kakanj.  We wish you a safe journey."

 3             "Thank you."

 4             "And goodbye."

 5             "Take care."

 6             "You who are of military age, don't come back to the front.  No

 7     more forgiveness.  I am giving you your life now."

 8             "Good afternoon.  They have been telling you many things about

 9     me.  You have an opportunity to see me.  You shut up.  Your job is to

10     drive.  Put that cigarette out."

11             "Understood."

12             "I'm General Mladic.  There are able-bodied men among you who

13     shot at me in the past.  I forgive you all and I'm giving you your life

14     back.  Don't come back before me at the front-line.  Next time, there

15     won't be any forgiveness.  I have mercy for you, and you did not have any

16     for our children in 1992 in the Zepa Canyon.  Have a safe journey, and

17     goodbye."

18             "Thank you."

19             "You're all going to be transported to Kladanj.  Do you have

20     anything to say, old man?"

21             "I have nothing to say."

22             "What's your name?"

23             "Mehmed Subotic ."

24             "Mehmed, then take care and be smart.  You could have all lived

25     here and no one would have touched you if your people had not touched us

Page 4448

 1     and if they hadn't come inside our villages.  Good luck, children, and

 2     grow up in peace."

 3             "Thank you."

 4             "Goodbye."

 5             "Good afternoon."

 6             "Good afternoon."

 7             "I'm General Mladic.  They've been telling you many things about

 8     me, and now we finally meet.  Don't be afraid.  I'm giving you all of

 9     your lives back.  Thank you.  You're going to Kladanj."

10             "Thank you."

11             "And live in peace there.  Don't come anymore in front of me or

12     my troops.  There won't be any more forgiveness.  I wish you luck."

13             "Thank you."

14             "I'm sorry it has come to this, but some among you are to be

15     blamed, not me.  Good luck."

16             "Good afternoon.  The day has come for you to see me in person.

17     I'm General Mladic.  Don't be afraid.  You are all going to Kladanj.  I

18     wish you good luck and that we don't have to fight anymore.  And

19     goodbye."

20             "Thank you."

21             "Well, go ahead and take care.

22             "What's your name?"

23             "Asim Markovic."

24             "Asim, don't be afraid.  I wish you good luck and don't be

25     afraid.  Everything will be all right."

Page 4449

 1             "Good afternoon.  Well, here we are, looking at each other.  I'm

 2     General Mladic.  You will be all transferred to Kladanj.  I'm giving you

 3     your life back as a gift.  You are innocent."

 4             "Thank you."

 5             "I wish you good luck.  Find your way, and that we all live in

 6     peace.  Goodbye."

 7             "Goodbye."

 8             "Good afternoon.  I'm General Mladic.  They've told you many

 9     things about me; right?  I am giving you your lives as a present, and you

10     are all going to Kladanj."

11             "Thank you."

12             "No one is going to touch you, and I wish you good luck, and may

13     we all live in peace."

14             "You too, you too."

15             "Goodbye."

16             "Goodbye."

17             "Be smart.  Alija and his gang have done this.  While he was in

18     prison, you were free.  Now he's free, and we are all in prison."

19             "Yes, yes."

20             "Goodbye."

21             "Goodbye."

22             "You're leaving immediately."

23             "Good afternoon.  They've told you many things about me.  Now you

24     have an opportunity to get to know me.  I am General Mladic.  There are

25     also able-bodied men among you.  You are very strong, aren't you?  I'm

Page 4450

 1     giving you your lives as a gift."

 2             "Thank you."

 3             "You are going to Kladanj.  Most of you are innocent, but there

 4     are those who were cruel as well.  But I'm not a man they told you.  I am

 5     what you see.  I wish you good luck, and may you live in peace.

 6     Goodbye."

 7             "Thank you."

 8             "Take care."

 9             "It's there on the bus in front.  Don't look like an idiot all

10     the time.  Reload, and once the last truck is out, have them go down.

11     Hey, Kosoric, you don't have to guard the APC.  Go there around them.

12     Reload them onto larger buses."

13             "I would be really happy if this one from over here, a little

14     more sense and desire.  Well, they don't, but they won't show it, they

15     won't.  Is there a possibility that I can speak to them directly?"

16             "Yes, over there, let Dudnjik connect to you and speak.  Ask for

17     Muratovic to speak."

18             "Hey, Dudnjik, call Sarajevo and have Muratovic come to UNPROFOR

19     command so we can speak to Muratovic.  Turks are useless."

20             "Have a coffee."

21             "Bring the second chair quickly."

22             "Okay, Dudnjik, I'm going to make it possible for your men.  They

23     can solve anything for you, but they could have at least --"

24             "They can't."

25             "If they have something firmly in their hands --"

Page 4451

 1             "They can't.  They killed our people.  You have to understand

 2     that, but I'm not going to kill you.  I'm going to kill them,

 3     mother-fuckers.  Don't be afraid, I'm going to save you.  You wouldn't

 4     save me, would you?  Maybe you -- maybe you would.  That's how you save

 5     those -- those who were free, you did, and those in Zepa, at Veliki Zep.

 6     You did them as well.  And those in the canyon?  Give me a coffee in a

 7     fildzan.  The time has come that Serbs drink from a fildzan and Turks

 8     from cups.  Fuck it.  The world has gone crazy.  Dear Hamdija, dear

 9     Hamdija.  They are able-bodied, a lot of able-bodied people in the

10     buses."

11             Inaudible.

12             "There isn't -- there aren't that many.  But no more forgiveness.

13     If someone comes --"

14             "Just don't anymore -- I don't want to hear that a new Zepa

15     Brigade was formed."

16             "It would be good, I mean --"

17             "Well, I wish I had at least one."

18             "You're the president of the SDA; right?

19             "Avdo told me this.

20             "You are the president of the SDA.  And who is the president of

21     the SDA?  The president of the SDA, there was some people in Sarajevo,

22     and currently the Presidency has, I think, the commissioners -- I don't

23     know his first name, this Hajric person."

24             "Why doesn't he give you -- he obviously doesn't like you."

25             "Doesn't like me?"

Page 4452

 1             "Well, he says that you are -- he says that you're a big shot."

 2             "I don't know.  I've never been a member of the party."

 3             "Why didn't Benjamin come back?  Wasn't that an agreement, that

 4     he goes from the --"

 5             "I told him to come.  Fine, let him stay there.  I mean, you talk

 6     here now."

 7             "Have they all gathered from Luka up there?"

 8             "How did the people take it?  Did they all come?  Had they all

 9     come, 10 more?"

10             "People can't wait."

11             "Really?"

12             "People are fed up with everything, both with Alija and with us,

13     ha-ha, in life."

14             "Well, let me tell you.  Local ones had a bit of a hard time to

15     accept it.  There was a large number of refugees.  They only waited for a

16     moment and a possibility, looking out for a chance to escape.  It can't

17     be worse anywhere else than some other place anywhere."

18             "Hamdija, you and I are going to make a deal, since you're an

19     educated person.  You go over there, and you can call me through

20     UNPROFOR.  You can come in touch with me whenever you want.  I'll see

21     you.  So we can move from Cazinska Krajina over there, from Bihac region,

22     those who want, in a humane way."

23             "No, no, no, just hold it, slowly."

24             "And from Gorazde.  Whoever wants to surrender their weapons,

25     those who do it, they can stay and live there.  Those that want to leave,

Page 4453

 1     they can leave.  I don't want to fight over there.  But it's a shame.

 2     You are killing each other around Bihac, and I want to help Dudakovic.

 3     He was my officer in the corps in Knin."

 4             "Dudakovic, is he efficient?"

 5             "Yes, good officer, efficient.  I want to help him because, well,

 6     he went a little too far, but I appointed him just as I appointed Naser

 7     in Srebrenica.  However, under Ljubljankic's pressure, he went astray a

 8     bit, and now he is killing his own.  Naser acted smarter.  He retreated

 9     and saved his people.  They would have starved to death.  You probably

10     also know what happened.  Give the man a beer.  Give us a beer.  Come on,

11     girl.  Bring me one, too.  Well, bring four or five beers, six.  One

12     part, let's say, 20 to 30 per cent of the population entered, was a bit

13     better off, and there was a huge invasion from down there."

14             "Why are you saying Bure like that?"

15             "No, everyone says Bure, so I said it too."

16             "You're not from there, are you?"

17             "I am."

18             "Oh, you are.  I'm sorry.  Well, it's not derogatory, but it's

19     typical of the people from Srebrenica, a bit derogatory."

20             "Well, you had more cattle or you gave higher numbers, what is

21     it?"

22             "Well, we cope better in such a small number."

23             "Yes.  Well, in the beginning, a lot of flour came, I mean, just

24     flour.  So talking about Zepa, there was no big crisis after the

25     United Nations forces came.  There was towards the end, because those who

Page 4454

 1     don't have cattle, for instance --"

 2             "Give the boss the green one."

 3             "They don't have milk, powder, nothing based on milk products."

 4             "Did you hear that?  Give the boss a beer."

 5             "There were many problems."

 6             "Okay.  Tell me, then, how did you organise the population in the

 7     villages in Zepa?"

 8             "Well, it all looked like this --"

 9             "Come on, you are telling me a fairy tale."

10             "Well, what I can say --"

11             "Come, Hamdija, cheers."

12             "Cheers."

13             "Boss."

14             "Well, for the most part, approximately 62 per cent --"

15             "Sixty-two?"

16             "The others were local."

17             "And out of that number of locals, how many UNPROFOR vehicles are

18     coming?"

19             "Maybe 10 of them could live."

20             "Well, let's --"

21             "We completed reloading, General, sir."

22             "The so-called demilitarised zone in Zepa, for two years now the

23     United Nations have been trying to disarm Zepa, but only after the Army

24     of Republika Srpska these days took over the initiative to do so is being

25     carried out in a peaceful matter.  Talks between General Mladic and

Page 4455

 1     Hamdija Torlak, the representative of the Muslim population of Zepa, are

 2     underway and everything is in progress as agreed.

 3             "Yesterday, exclusively civilians were evacuated from Zepa."

 4             "The organisation is excellent.  The convoy with the wounded has

 5     arrived in Sarajevo, and the convoy with the civilian population arrived

 6     in Kladanj without any problems.  There is one remaining problem that I

 7     hope we will solve promptly.  That's the problem with disarming the

 8     soldiers in Zepa.  I hope that the whole process around Zepa will be

 9     completed tomorrow."

10             "In the enclaves of Srebrenica and Zepa, neither the Muslim

11     civilian population nor the UNPROFOR were our targets.  Our objective was

12     to disarm the fundamentalist formations that were numerous.  And if you

13     are following the whole situation, you know well that they announced

14     through the media that they had organised the Eastern Bosnia Corps and

15     that the 28th Division in Srebrenica was part of that corps.  And the

16     independent brigade in Zepa, what was it called, the Zepa Light Brigade?

17     I didn't hear your answer.  Could you please repeat it.  This brigade

18     from Zepa, was that part of the division in Srebrenica?"

19             "Yes, yes, one of the brigades."

20             "So one of their divisions is in Gorazde as well.  Of course, we

21     couldn't tolerate that the protected zones be bases from which the

22     terrorist groups operate against the territory of Republika Srpska.

23     I think there is no need to carry out a similar operation against

24     Gorazde.  We are offering contacts to agree on a peaceful solution of the

25     problem in that area, and they can surrender their weapons peacefully and

Page 4456

 1     remain where they lived before.  And the protected zone should in no way

 2     be used as a terrorist base."

 3             "The CNN correspondent Peter Arnett asked Hamdija Torlakovic

 4     whether the information about the alleged --"

 5             MR. THAYER:

 6        Q.   Sir, we've paused at 1 hour 9 minutes and 16 seconds.  Do you

 7     recall who this individual was, and --

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, we can't always go over time.  We've

 9     reached 7.00.  If it's just a short question, and Judge Nyambe has also a

10     question and I have some remarks, we are very patient, but it takes a

11     long time.

12             MR. THAYER:  Yes, Mr. President.  We only had a minute left, but

13     we can stop and resume tomorrow, and I can ask the question tomorrow.

14     I'll just note the time for the record, and we can queue it up first

15     thing tomorrow morning.  1 hour 9 minutes and 16 seconds.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Nyambe.

17             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Just a quick clarification.

18             In the video footage just before this one, General Mladic is

19     referring to Serbs in the canyon of Zepa who were not -- who were harmed

20     or not harmed in 1992.  My question is:  In 1992, there were Serbs living

21     in Zepa?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you asking only about the Serbs

23     who lived in Zepa in 1992?  Well, there weren't any, except for a woman

24     who was an Orthodox Christian and was married to her colleague, a

25     teacher.  So that's the answer to your question whether there were any

Page 4457

 1     Serbs living in Zepa.

 2             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.  The other question is:  The footage we

 3     saw about General Mladic getting on the buses, saying goodbye to people

 4     going away to Kladanj, do you recall exactly how many buses left that

 5     day, or was this in one day or over a number of days?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Personally, I think that all this

 7     footage was done on the same day, on the 26th of July, and that's when I

 8     talked about that convoy.  When I said "convoy," I meant a number of

 9     buses, about 10 of them.  And I believe that this was that one convoy

10     that I joined.  And General Mladic would get on each one of these buses,

11     greet the local people of Zepa who were on the buses.

12             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, we have, of course, to adjourn now,

14     and we will resume tomorrow in the morning at 9.00.

15             First, a remark for the witness.  I know you mentioned already

16     that you are tired.  Everybody will understand that.  And tomorrow, you

17     should immediately indicate if it is too much for you.  Then we can have

18     a break.  That, you should take into attention.

19             Another thing.  Mr. Thayer, we don't know anything about the

20     source of this video, especially the last portion.  Not everything, I

21     suppose, you have shown to us today was on the 65 ter list.  There's a

22     compilation of different footages, but I don't -- I'm not sure if

23     everything is really part of the 65 ter list.

24             MR. THAYER:  It is, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And, therefore, it is perhaps not necessary to

Page 4458

 1     tender this again as a separate exhibit.

 2             But you should consider this question overnight as well:  And we

 3     would like to know -- I think you have used now 8 hours and around

 4     30 minutes, much more than indicated earlier.  I would like to know, do

 5     you intend to continue the whole day tomorrow, or what is your

 6     estimation?

 7             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I estimate that I'll finish by the

 8     end of the first session.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

10             We have to adjourn now and resume tomorrow morning at 9.00 in

11     this courtroom.

12             And the Court Officer will assist you.  Again, and you know, no

13     contact, please, about the content of your testimony to either party.

14             We adjourn.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.06 p.m.,

17                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 26th day of

18                           August, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.