Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4459

 1                           Thursday, 26 August 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning to everybody in the courtroom, and

 7     especially good morning, Witness.

 8             May I remind you that the affirmation to tell the truth still

 9     applies even today.  And I think Mr. Thayer has some more questions for

10     you.

11                           WITNESS:  HAMDIJA TORLAK [Resumed]

12                           [The witness answered through interpreter]

13             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14             Good morning to you and Your Honours.  Good morning to the

15     Defence.  Good morning, everyone.

16                           Examination by Mr. Thayer: [Continued]

17        Q.   Good morning, Witness.

18        A.   Good morning.

19        Q.   Before we continue with the video, I'd like to follow up on the

20     question asked by Honourable Judge Nyambe yesterday.  You answered the

21     second part of the question, I believe, but didn't get to the first part,

22     which concerned General Mladic's repeated references, when he was getting

23     on the buses, to Serbs being killed in the Zepa Canyon in 1992.  Do you

24     have any idea to what General Mladic was referring when he spoke about

25     the Zepa Canyon in 1992?

Page 4460

 1        A.   Yes.  He was referring to a military clash.  It went this way:  A

 2     column of the Serb Army, in early June 1992, set off for Zlovrh, which is

 3     one of the peaks on Mount Zepa, where the JNA, the Yugoslav People's

 4     Army, had had, up until then, a radio-relay and a communications centre,

 5     air control centre, and before you reached Zepa, in other words, to the

 6     west of Zepa, the Serb Army and the then organisation, they then

 7     organised people of that -- from that area.  They clashed, and the column

 8     was stopped.  And as far as I know, some 40 Serb soldiers were killed.

 9             When General Mladic refers to the Zepa Canyon, he is referring to

10     these events of June 1992.

11        Q.   And do you have any knowledge as to where these Serb soldiers who

12     were attempting to reach the Zlovrh peak were garrisoned?

13        A.   I'm not sure I understood your question.  I apologise.  What do

14     you mean, "garrisoned"?  Perhaps I can add a few sentences; namely, I can

15     explain what happened after this clash.

16             The head of the column was stopped, and fighting ensued between

17     the Serb Army and a group of people, members of the Army of Bosnia and

18     Herzegovina, if you want.  And the Serb Army had air support.  At the

19     time, there were aeroplanes over-flying the area and bombing of

20     neighbouring villages.  And after this fighting, which lasted about a

21     day, on the next day there was a new operation where the Serb Army

22     brought in fresh troops, and they managed to pull out the remaining Serb

23     soldiers, so that after this incident, and this was about on the

24     5th or 6th of June -- after this incident, that area was peaceful, more

25     or less.  There were no major military operations there anymore.

Page 4461

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I ask a question to clarify just the terms.

 2             You were referring to the Serb Army and Serb soldiers.  Do you

 3     mean the Bosnian Serb Army or are you referring to the JNA, the

 4     Yugoslav People's Army?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm referring to the

 6     Bosnian Serb Army, because at that time, officially, as far as I can

 7     recall, and this was in the month of June, the official presence of the

 8     JNA had already ended in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  I believe that was

 9     already at the end of May.  And at that time is when the change in the

10     names occurred in the Bosnian Serb organisations, and it became the Army

11     of Republika Srpska.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

13             Mr. Thayer.

14             MR. THAYER:

15        Q.   So just to wrap up this topic, sir, were any of these Serb

16     soldiers from Zepa?

17        A.   No, that's impossible because there were only Muslims living in

18     Zepa.

19        Q.   Okay.  Just to follow up on a couple of miscellaneous matters

20     while we're back in time a little bit, so to speak.

21             You testified that you left the Srebrenica area sometime in early

22     1993, sometime perhaps around March of 1993.  Can you tell the

23     Trial Chamber why you left Srebrenica?

24        A.   Well, I think I mentioned this in my statement.  In 1993, in late

25     February, my mother passed away.  She had lived in Zeleni Jadar up until

Page 4462

 1     then.  And that was basically the main reason for my leaving there,

 2     because there was no other reason for me to stay there.  The -- what

 3     prompted me also was that immediately following this, the operation

 4     against Srebrenica began.  Now, I am not sure that I have all the

 5     timeline correct, but I'm referring to the events of the enclave of

 6     Srebrenica, which had shrunk at the time, and this was also the time when

 7     General Morillon came to Bosnia and Herzegovina, which was followed by

 8     attacks on Zepa.  And then there was the proclamation by the

 9     UN Security Council of the protected zones, including Zepa and

10     Srebrenica.

11             But to go back to what I was saying earlier, my leaving

12     Srebrenica was really directly linked to the death of my mother, because

13     there was no reason for me to stay there and I didn't have any friends or

14     anything like that.  This was an area that wasn't really something that I

15     was used to.

16        Q.   And now moving back to the events of July 1995, and drawing your

17     attention to the 19th of July, sir, would you tell the Trial Chamber why

18     Colonel Palic did not attend the 19 July meeting with Generals Mladic and

19     Tolimir at Boksanica?

20        A.   Well, look, you're talking about the talks that we all had

21     occasion to hear about yesterday.  I believe that Avdo feared for his own

22     personal safety, and I think that's the reason why he didn't go to that

23     meeting personally.  That's as far as I can recall.

24             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  Let's pick up with the video from yesterday.

25        Q.   Do you have an image on your screen, sir?  Do we need to get that

Page 4463

 1     up for you?

 2        A.   I don't have it yet, but I'm sure I will get it in a moment.

 3     Yes, I have it now.

 4             MR. THAYER:  Now, again we are at 1 hour 9 minutes and

 5     11 seconds.  We just backed up the video a couple of seconds from where

 6     we left off yesterday.

 7        Q.   Do you see an individual in a blue shirt who's squarely facing

 8     the camera, sir?  And if you do, can you tell the Trial Chamber who that

 9     person is?

10        A.   Yes, I do.  That's -- Peter, I believe, was his name.  He was a

11     CNN journalist.

12        Q.   And directly above his head, there are three initials on the

13     screen.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber what those initials are and what

14     they mean, if you know?  It looks like a red and white and a little bit

15     of blue colouring.

16        A.   Yes.  Yes, I see that.  That was the logo of the then

17     Radio Television of Republika Srpska.  This is in the Cyrillic script.

18     It says there "SRT."  The "se" sound looks like the Roman script C, and

19     then "RT," so this was the Serbian Radio Television which broadcast this

20     programme.  At the time, they were in Pale.  Later on, they were moved to

21     Banja Luka.

22             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  Let's continue playing the video, please.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "CNN correspondent Peter Arnett

25     asked Hamdija Torlakovic whether the information about the alleged rapes

Page 4464

 1     and maltreatment in Zepa are true."

 2             "No, categorically not, definitely not.  Everything going is in

 3     the best way possible, all in accordance with the signed agreement with

 4     General Mladic.  The procedure is exceptionally correct, because I myself

 5     was involved in the process from the very beginning."

 6             "I'm surprised that you, as an experienced journalist of a

 7     renowned TV station, ask questions about rapes.  This is Goebbels

 8     propaganda.  The people are miserable.  They are blaming me for rescuing

 9     Muslims and UNPROFOR members.  I live for my people, for its dignity, for

10     the honour and pride of my family and my people, and for my distinction

11     as an officer.  And I have given countless examples of this during the

12     war."

13             "It is 20 hours and 45 minutes.  We are reporting from an area

14     around the foothill of Zepa Mountain.  The convoy with Muslim civilians,

15     who expressed their wish to leave Zepa for Kladanj, is starting out at

16     this moment, and it will probably be over in a few moments.  The group of

17     Muslim civilians today voluntarily left Zepa.  They arrived in Kladanj in

18     the territory under Muslim control.  With the permission of the Serbian

19     authorities, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees was

20     escorting them.  Its representatives reported, after the end, that they

21     had crossed over."

22             "Good evening.  How are you?"

23             "Okay, I am glad that you came, and I'm glad that CNN is present

24     to register this, because we are helping them.  No one could help them.

25     Those who issue resolutions based on media reports only put these people

Page 4465

 1     in distress."

 2             MR. THAYER:

 3        Q.   Sir, in the footage we just saw most recently, taken at night, we

 4     saw a number of, essentially, dump trucks with people in them, and buses.

 5     Can you describe what that footage was of?

 6        A.   That footage was the footage of the evacuation of Zepa.  The

 7     buses went directly to Kladanj, and the buses -- the trucks would stop at

 8     Boksanica, and then people would board buses and continue on their way to

 9     Kladanj.  I believe that this was on the evening of the 26th of July.

10        Q.   And are those the types of trucks, for example, which you saw at

11     Boksanica when you were there on the 26th that you spoke about in answer,

12     in particular, to one of the honourable Presiding Judge's questions

13     yesterday?

14        A.   Well, look, these are -- this is footage from Boksanica.  Now, I

15     don't know whether at the time I was actually in any location where I

16     could see that, but this -- these kind of convoys went on over the whole

17     day, and this is one of the typical scenes that you could see during the

18     evacuation of the civilian population of Zepa.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  So were you still present at night-time at this

20     location?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  On the night of the 26th and

22     27th of July, I was at check-point 2 in the UNPROFOR compound, where I

23     spent the night in a room there.  I can't recall whether Dudnjik slept in

24     the same room, but there were a couple of UNPROFOR soldiers who slept in

25     the same room with me.  So the night of the 26th, going on the 27th, I

Page 4466

 1     was at this location, and I spent the night, together with UNPROFOR

 2     soldiers, in one of their dorms.

 3             MR. THAYER:

 4        Q.   And, sir, my question about the trucks was rather more general.

 5     It was simply:  Were the types of trucks that we saw in that footage,

 6     those open-back dump trucks, were those the types of trucks that you saw?

 7     Whether or not it was that exact convoy that was on the video, but were

 8     those the types of trucks that you saw arriving at Boksanica when you

 9     were there on the 26th?

10        A.   Well, there was a frequent mention made of open-backed trucks.

11     Yes, that was the type of truck.  In other words, there was no tarp or no

12     cover on top.  But to be honest, I can't really recall every detail,

13     whether they were yellow in colour or some other colour.  I can't really

14     recall, because this footage was made on the approaches to Zepa, at the

15     Boksanica Plateau, and I wasn't really there at the time.  I was in the

16     UNPROFOR compound, so in an enclosed area.  But I had seen such trucks

17     earlier, and I believe that Mladic, too, mentioned that the civilian

18     population of Zepa will be transported on these kinds of trucks.

19        Q.   Now, let's go back to the events we saw depicted on the video

20     yesterday during the day, and I want to draw your attention particularly

21     to the footage where General Mladic boards numerous buses and addresses

22     the passengers.  Were you aware at the time that General Mladic had a

23     cameraman filming every time he went into one of these buses?

24        A.   Look, when I went out, I believe that I did see a cameraman.

25     Later on, I went to the location where we saw the footage filmed, where I

Page 4467

 1     was in talks with Krstic and Gvero, but I can't recall the rest.  I mean,

 2     they were some 30, 40 metres away, and whether Mladic and -- the

 3     cameraman followed Mladic when he boarded each and every one of these

 4     buses, I believe so.  I believe that it was the same cameraman, and

 5     I think he was a cameraman who was with the Army of Republika Srpska.

 6        Q.   Sir, you spent a significant amount of time over these days with

 7     General Mladic.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber, based on your

 8     interaction with him, what his purpose was in getting on these buses and

 9     filming himself addressing the passengers in the way that he did?

10        A.   Well, I don't really know.  I can't say either way.  Thinking

11     about it, I don't know why he would do that.  Probably so that the

12     population of Zepa could see him, get some footage of him.  I don't

13     really know.  Well, that would be it.

14        Q.   Now, we see in the footage you drinking coffee with

15     General Mladic.  Later, you're toasting beers with Mladic, Krstic and

16     Gvero.  And were you aware that you were being filmed that entire time,

17     sir?

18        A.   Yes.  Yes, I saw the cameraman.  I think he was standing to my

19     right.

20        Q.   Were you enjoying yourself, sir?

21        A.   Well, look, it was a special situation.  I know that the problem

22     remained of the military-able men, what to do with them.  Of course, it

23     was a quite specific situation, and I was, to all intents and purposes,

24     set aside with the Serb officers and the generals.  And you must always

25     bear that in mind when you think about my - how shall I put it? - my

Page 4468

 1     comments and behaviour.  I was with these people.

 2        Q.   How free did you feel to speak candidly about what had occurred

 3     over the prior week or so?  We saw you being interviewed in the presence

 4     of that CNN reporter.  Again, we saw you encircled by Mladic, his

 5     top-level generals and his bodyguards.  How free did you feel to speak

 6     candidly during this time?

 7        A.   It's like this:  Let me go back.  I had to ensure -- well, what

 8     does "free" mean?  I had to ensure that the process of transporting

 9     the -- transferring the civilian population would be done properly.  That

10     was our basic goal.  Now, how free they felt or how free one felt to say

11     what you wanted to say, well, everything had to be within the context of

12     the situation, itself.  And let me repeat, faced with a situation like

13     that, quite specific circumstances, you have to understand that.  Now

14     "feel free," how can I take that?  I answered what I was asked, and I had

15     to take care and account of the situation I was in and we were in, and

16     what our goal was at that point in time, which was for the civilian

17     population to leave securely or, rather, to be transported to Kladanj.

18        Q.   Again, sir, if you could provide a little bit more detail.  And I

19     know this is not easy for you.  But when you say that you had to "take

20     care and account of the situation I was in and we were in," in deciding

21     how to answer the questions you were being asked, for example, can you

22     tell the Trial Chamber what exactly you were concerned about?  And let me

23     just give you an example.

24             What do you think might have happened had you told the cameraman

25     that civilian targets had been shelled for the last 14 days, the women

Page 4469

 1     and children were wounded, that the civilian population was terrified?

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, if you want to get an answer, then --

 3             MR. THAYER:  That's my question.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  -- you shouldn't put too much details to the

 5     witness.

 6             Mr. Tolimir.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to greet all those

 8     present, Mr. Thayer and everybody else, and you, Mr. President.  May

 9     God's will be done, and may peace reign in this house.

10             Now, can we avoid leading questions being put to the witness,

11     please, and not to ask for an answer from the witness on the questions

12     being posed in the way they are?

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Exactly this, that was my concern.

14             Mr. Thayer, perhaps you can rephrase or limit your question to

15     the first part of it.

16             MR. THAYER:  Well, so I'll just make it extremely general, then.

17        Q.   What do you think would have happened had you told that cameraman

18     what you really had experienced and were thinking and worried about?

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Nyambe would like to say something before

20     the witness answers.

21             JUDGE NYAMBE:  I think, Mr. Thayer, you might want to rephrase

22     your question.  The way your question is presently phrased is

23     speculative.  "You might," "he didn't."  So whatever the witness may give

24     you may not bring out, I suspect, what you want to get out of the

25     witness.  Thank you.

Page 4470

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's now quite complicated.  I would like to

 2     assist you, Mr. Thayer, if I put the question in the following way.

 3             Sir, if you recall the situation where you have been in at that

 4     time, discussing with Mr. Mladic and others, what was at that time your

 5     expectation if you would not succeed with your goal, as you explained,

 6     the safe journey of people to Kladanj, what would have happened to them?

 7     What did you have in mind at that time when you were sitting there?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's like this:  If the

 9     population had not been moved to Kladanj in this way, then it would have

10     had to have stayed -- they would have had to have stayed on the mountain,

11     those people.  Now, what would have happened next is a matter of

12     speculation.  But, at any rate, it would have been an incomparably more

13     difficult situation for survival, in terms of survival, than the other

14     one.

15             Now, linked to the Prosecutor's question about what would have

16     happened had I said, Yes, such and such, such and such, my answer is I

17     don't know what would have happened, of course.  But it's a hypothetical

18     question.  And let me repeat, once again, that situation, and not only

19     that one, you have situations like that in life, when you follow your

20     goal and purpose, and it doesn't enter your mind to question things.

21     Now, what would have happened had I told the CNN journalist that, I

22     really don't know.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

24             MR. THAYER:

25        Q.   The footage, sir, for example, where we see General Mladic

Page 4471

 1     telling you about honour, his officers' distinction, and referring to

 2     Goebbels propaganda and so forth, you were there at the time when he was

 3     saying these things to you, and you've seen the footage.  How would you

 4     characterise what General Mladic was doing during this interaction with

 5     you, when he's on one side with his officers and you're alone on the

 6     other side in the chair in front of the cameras?  How would you

 7     characterise that?

 8        A.   Well, I didn't think about an answer to a question like that, and

 9     now I'm giving thought to it.  But you can assume what the situation was

10     like, and I was helpless.  I can say that now.  I had to do this, that.

11     And, well, let me repeat.  The situation was what it was.  I was alone up

12     there.  You have General Mladic in front of you, with his military

13     leaders around him.  You have the transport of the population.  My role,

14     if I can put it that way, and everything I did had to be such that the

15     process was brought to an end, was completed.  It would be strange of me

16     to say anything else, except to say, What could you have been?  You had

17     to be courageous to say it wasn't this way or that way.  That would have

18     required courage.  And that was my third meeting, I believe, with

19     General Mladic.  I already knew what his behaviour was like, and what his

20     story was, and what his relationship was towards his subordinates, how he

21     acted towards them and others.  So what can I say?  It was a very

22     difficult situation for me to be in.  But on that day, and as the day

23     went on, when I said "relaxing," I meant that there were other topics

24     discussed, too, when there wasn't any filming going on.  As I say, that's

25     how it was.  I don't think I need describe it anymore.  Anybody looking

Page 4472

 1     at it and looking at the situation, and anybody aware of what the

 2     situation was like, would be able to draw their own conclusions.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think, Mr. Thayer, everybody in the courtroom,

 4     both parties and the Chamber, at the end, will draw conclusions of what

 5     we have seen and what the witness described.  I think it's not essential

 6     to ask him about his conclusions.

 7             Please carry on.

 8             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before you carry on, Judge Nyambe would like to

10     put a question to the witness.

11             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

12             At page 13, lines 16 to 17, just now you have said:

13             "And that was my third meeting, I believe, with General Mladic."

14             My question is --

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fourth.  I made a mistake.  I made

16     a mistake.  It was the fourth meeting.

17             JUDGE NYAMBE:  It doesn't matter.  My question is:  This being

18     the fourth meeting, and in all these meetings you have observed the

19     conduct of General Mladic, as you say, his relations with his

20     subordinates, his relations with other people in these meetings, did you

21     feel at any time that after attending maybe one or two meetings that you

22     wouldn't want to attend another meetings with him?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, when I said that I saw what

24     his conduct was, Mladic's conduct was, towards his subordinates, I want

25     to say that General Mladic was always the number-one man in any

Page 4473

 1     situation.  He was all -- he always had the main say, and nobody would

 2     oppose him in any way.  They just answered his questions.  Now, his

 3     relationship towards others, his conduct towards others, would change

 4     depending on the situation, going from cold to warm to hot.

 5             Now, as far as I'm concerned, I entered into this process, I did

 6     not have any -- how shall I put this?  I didn't -- it didn't enter my

 7     head not to go -- not to attend a future meeting, whatever happened.  And

 8     I've already said that, I believe, in my testimony, that Mr. Benjamin

 9     gave up on the meeting of the 24th of July, so that I arrived at the

10     meeting alone.  Mr. Benjamin did not come because the stakes were high.

11     What had to be assured was the safe departure of the civilians from Zepa.

12             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you very much.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

14             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15        Q.   Let's talk about the events of the 27th of July for a few

16     moments.

17             You told us yesterday, in connection with some of the questions

18     from the Trial Chamber, that you remained at Boksanica until sometime on

19     the 27th.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber approximately what time of the

20     day it was when the last convoy which you saw arrive at Boksanica was?

21        A.   I think it was several hours after noon, sometime in the

22     afternoon, maybe 1.00 p.m., 2.00 p.m., and the convoy was stopped at

23     Boksanica.  Everybody stopped there.  And from the convoy -- well, I was

24     in the UNPROFOR compound, myself, at the time, but Mehmed Hajric and

25     Amir Imamovic came or were brought, and we were together -- there

Page 4474

 1     together.  And when I asked how come they were there, they had come,

 2     I think the answer was that they stayed until the end to draw up lists of

 3     the people who were boarding the buses.  The situation changed at that

 4     point, and as far as I can remember, we were told that the convoy would

 5     not be going any further until the fighters and military-able population

 6     had surrendered.

 7             Now, the president of the Wartime Presidency was there at the

 8     time.  His name was Mehmed Hajric.  And so most of the pressure was on

 9     him.  And I think that the piece of paper which I've forgotten now, but

10     which was shown me during the proofing session on Sunday for my

11     testimony, I think this piece of paper was signed by Hajric, myself, and

12     Imamovic, and that, again, was agreement for the army to surrender.

13     I think I told General Mladic once again that that piece of paper cannot

14     be effective because nobody could wield influence of that kind on anybody

15     else to prevail upon them to come in and surrender.

16             Now, following on from my memories of the situation,

17     Mehmed Hajric was sent to Mount Zepa to convey the demands or to describe

18     the situation and the demand for the army to surrender.  I think he went

19     off from Boksanica in an UNPROFOR vehicle, and the rest of us stayed

20     behind; that is to say, I and Amir Imamovic stayed behind.  So that might

21     have been 3.00 in the afternoon by that time on the 27th of July.

22             An hour or two later, I was sent to one of the buses from the

23     convoy, the last convoy arriving from Zepa, which was parked at

24     Boksanica.  I went into one and Amir Imamovic went into another, so we

25     weren't together.  We went into separate buses.

Page 4475

 1             Now, time passed with nothing happening, but then, as far as I

 2     recall, at around 9.00 or 10.00 in the evening of the 27th of July, that

 3     soldier -- the Serb soldier arrived and told me to follow him.  I saw

 4     that another soldier was taking Amir out from this other bus, the one he

 5     was in.  Then we were taken to the area where I had slept in the UNPROFOR

 6     compound.  Along the way, we heard that on the stretch from the bus to

 7     that UNPROFOR compound, that instructions were given for the convoy to

 8     continue on its way to Kladanj.  I heard the engines being switched on

 9     and the buses setting off.

10             After some time had gone by in this UNPROFOR compound, I think

11     two men entered.  They might have been the military police of the

12     Army of Republika Srpska.  And Amir and I were told that we were

13     arrested, under arrest, and that we now had the status of prisoners of

14     war.  They put handcuffs on our hands.  Well, they joined our hands with

15     the handcuffs, one of my hands and one of Amir's, and ordered us to

16     follow them.  We left the area, the UNPROFOR compound.

17             And let me just say that while we were being arrested, there were

18     a couple of UNPROFOR soldiers standing by and Colonel Dudnjik, who turned

19     the other way.

20             When we left, we took the forest route, and later on I realised

21     why this was done.  Anyway, that part of the road, that stretch of the

22     route, some 100 metres, was through the woods, and we joined up onto the

23     road later on after that, and we entered a vehicle that was familiar to

24     me.  And I think it's one that was used by the Army of Republika Srpska,

25     some sort of APC.  They put us in, and we were driven off to the hotel at

Page 4476

 1     Borike, where we were taken over by some young guys.  Well, I think they

 2     were also from the military police of the Army of Republika Srpska.  We

 3     spent the night, and they stood guard over us.  We spent the night there,

 4     which was the 27th -- between the 27th and 28th of July.  In the morning,

 5     they unlocked our handcuffs, gave us some breakfast, and sent us back to

 6     Boksanica in a vehicle of some sort.

 7        Q.   If I might just interrupt you, sir, for a moment.

 8             So just based on your last answer, did you spend the night in the

 9     room handcuffed -- still handcuffed to Mr. Imamovic, sir?

10        A.   Yes.  You can see that clearly from my answer.  We were

11     handcuffed, let's say, at around 11.00 p.m., and the handcuffs were taken

12     off in the morning at 7.00 a.m.  So 11.00 p.m. of the 27th, and we spent

13     the night.  Well, we sort of slept.  And on the morning of the 28th, at

14     about 8.00, they took our handcuffs off, gave us some breakfast, and we

15     set out for Boksanica.

16        Q.   Now, I think you told us that the situation became tense on the

17     27th.  Did General Mladic's attitude change that day as well in any way?

18        A.   The 27th?  Well, yes, the situation, up until the arrival of the

19     last convoy, was quite different, more relaxed.  But when the last convoy

20     arrived, then the whole mood changed.  General Mladic asked the army to

21     surrender.  He asked me first.  And then the president of the

22     Wartime Presidency, Amir Imamovic, was there.  So that was at around 2.00

23     in the afternoon of the 27th.

24        Q.   When you say that the whole mood changed, did General Mladic's

25     mood change in any way?

Page 4477

 1        A.   Well, I don't know.  "Mood," you use the word "mood," but, in

 2     fact, it's the position that he took.  Now, it was said, Okay, we have an

 3     agreement signed and now the army has to surrender.  And I told

 4     General Mladic that -- while I was signing that agreement, that I had no

 5     competence, no authority, or no effective control over the army, and that

 6     was the substance of our conversation, more or less.

 7             Now, Mehmed Hajric was present as well, and I believe then the

 8     conversation moved to -- he started talking with him, that perhaps he

 9     should -- because he was -- he should inform a member of the Presidency.

10     But, generally, I know that the whole relationship -- the whole treatment

11     changed, but I don't know what caused it and it would just be my

12     guessing.

13        Q.   And when you refer to signing the agreement, which agreement are

14     you referring to?  Because the Trial Chamber has heard reference now to a

15     number of meetings and agreements, so just so that there is no lack of

16     clarity on the record, what agreement or document are you referring to

17     now?

18        A.   Well, I was referring to the only agreement that we were shown

19     yesterday.  That was the agreement on disarming the soldiers of Zepa.

20     That was the agreement I was referring to, the agreement of the 24th of

21     July, 1995.

22        Q.   And on the 27th of July, this day we've been spending some time

23     on now, did you sign -- and I think you've already spoken a little bit

24     about this, but just so the record is clear, did you sign another

25     document?  And I'll just leave it there for now.

Page 4478

 1        A.   Yes.  The signing of that document followed the discussion, and

 2     that is the document that I said I had seen it for the first time on

 3     Sunday, during the proofing session.

 4        Q.   And when you saw that agreement on Sunday, did you recognise

 5     anyone's signature on it?

 6        A.   Yes, I recognised my own signature, although there were three

 7     there, Mehmed Hajric's, mine, and Amir Imamovic's.

 8        Q.   And how, if at all, did seeing that agreement jog your memory

 9     about the events of the 27th?

10        A.   Well, all I can say about the agreement is that it was the result

11     of pressure exerted on the three of us to surrender the Zepa -- the

12     soldiers of Zepa.

13        Q.   When you say "pressure," sir, what are you referring to, please?

14        A.   Well, the situation was as follows:  The last convoy had been

15     intercepted, and they said that the convoy would not continue on its way

16     until the army surrendered.  That's the pressure that I'm referring to.

17        Q.   Now, I'd like to show you a document shortly, sir.

18             MR. THAYER:  I just want to let the Trial Chamber know one thing

19     about it.  This was seized during some searches a few months ago.  The

20     document will be the subject of a 65 ter motion to add it to our exhibit

21     list.  If the Trial Chamber wishes not to use the document at this point,

22     that's fine.  We have at least one other witness through whom the

23     document may be used.  I have asked the Defence if there is any objection

24     to using the document, subject to a future Rule 65 ter addition motion.

25     We do have one in the works, some pleasure is yet to come for the

Page 4479

 1     Trial Chamber.  But I just wanted to alert the Trial Chamber to that

 2     fact, that this is a document that we did not have at the time the

 3     witness testified the last time, as the Trial Chamber has heard from the

 4     witness, and it was shown to him during the proofing session.  So I just

 5     notify the Court of that.  And should the Court permit, I would like to

 6     show the document to the witness.  Otherwise, I think there's a

 7     sufficient foundation laid and we can use it with another witness at

 8     another time.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can you tell me, is this the 65 ter number 06418?

10             MR. THAYER:  That's correct, Mr. President.  And it was after the

11     proofing, frankly, that I realised that it was not part of our 65 ter

12     list, that it was part of the motion that is in the works.  And rather

13     than burdening the Trial Chamber with yet another motion, because I know

14     we had a few in the pipeline already, as I said, we're certainly flexible

15     on whether to use it or not with this witness.  It's entirely up to the

16     Trial Chamber's preference, whether you want to wait for the formal

17     motion to add it to the 65 ter list before using it.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, are you able to respond to this

19     proposal by Mr. Thayer?  What is your position about using this document?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, but I am

21     not really sure what document they mean.  Perhaps they could tell us

22     something about the content of that document, because I don't know what

23     Mr. Thayer might be referring to here.  And I don't really have any

24     objections to everything being actually publicised, but we don't know

25     anything about the earlier document that was mentioned here either, and

Page 4480

 1     there was no mention made about whether the agreement was complied with

 2     or not.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The last document we have received yesterday or

 4     even the day before - I don't recall - was on the 65 ter list, and we saw

 5     it on the screen, and you have received it earlier.  This document, we

 6     don't -- as a Chamber, don't know anything about it, except that it is

 7     listed in the list of documents the Prosecution was intending to use.

 8             Mr. Thayer, would you explain a little bit further, for the sake

 9     of Mr. Tolimir?

10             MR. THAYER:  Certainly, Mr. President.  And just so the

11     Trial Chamber is aware, this is a document that has been previously

12     disclosed.  I advised the Defence almost, I think, a week ago that I was

13     intending to show this to the witness and that we might be using it as an

14     exhibit in court.

15             This is a document that was seized during the course of some

16     searches related to ongoing investigations.  It is part of a collection

17     of search-related documents which are still being processed and analysed,

18     so even the attorneys don't have the full scope yet of what is being

19     produced from this cache of documents found during the search.  But this

20     one was brought to my attention recently.  And as soon as it was and I

21     realised its importance, we notified the Defence.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  To clarify the situation, you have asked the

23     witness about a certain agreement again, and he referred to that we have

24     seen yesterday on the screen.  This is the agreement of the 24th of July

25     with the signature of this witness.  But recently, today, the witness

Page 4481

 1     mentioned another agreement with a signature of Mehmed Hajric and

 2     Amir Imamovic and his own signature, and this seems to be the agreement

 3     you are referring to now with the 65 ter number 06418, is that correct,

 4     with the date of the 27th of July?

 5             MR. THAYER:  That is correct, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we do not object to

 8     any of the documents that was signed by the Army of Republika Srpska and

 9     by this witness being made public, but we do object to documents being

10     used which we know nothing about, because I saw yesterday a number of

11     matters that actually do not correspond to what was happening.  For

12     instance, there was some footage showing me in civilian clothes, and

13     there was no mention made where that was filmed or what it was about, and

14     similar matters.

15             So that's all I would have to say.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  For the moment, we are only discussing this

17     agreement, this document with the number -- 65 ter number 6418.  You say

18     you are not objecting to this, and Mr. Thayer told us that it was

19     disclosed to you and to the Defence.  If that is the case, then you are

20     aware of this document and the content or not?  I don't understand your

21     comment on that.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, my comment is this:

23     If the witness is asked about something that we can only guess about,

24     then I can't really agree to that.  But if there is an agreement that was

25     signed by this witness and by the Republika Srpska Army, I absolutely

Page 4482

 1     have no objection to it being shown here in the courtroom and then

 2     questions being asked about it.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, Witness, may I ask:  Are you the only person

 6     still alive from the Bosnian community who signed this agreement we are

 7     talking about of the 27th of July?  Are you the only person still alive

 8     of the Muslim community?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If you are moving for admission of this document

11     to the 65 ter list, and taking into account that there is no objection by

12     the Defence, by Mr. Tolimir, for using this document, your motion is

13     granted without a written submission, and you may use it now by

14     examination of this witness.

15             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16             And just to keep things a little smoother, I hope, we may as well

17     just do this in private session, rather than trying to blow up certain

18     sections and jump in and out.  If we can just go into private session to

19     look at the document, please.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4483











11 Pages 4483-4486 redacted. Private session.















Page 4487

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Open session]

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session.

 8             MR. THAYER:

 9        Q.   Sir, you've been testifying about numerous events, going back to

10     1992.  And as you just said, you've told us on a number of occasions

11     about the fear.  And in your last answer, you just said:

12             "Whether that was founded or not, that's a different issue."

13             Well, I'm asking you:  Was it a founded fear -- was it a

14     well-founded fear or was it not a well-founded fear in July of 1995?

15        A.   Well, indeed, that is probably a question that you shouldn't put

16     to me, in other words, what would have happened had the army

17     surrendered -- had the troops surrendered.  I've already said that I

18     don't know what would have happened, but that that was the reason why

19     they didn't surrender.  Now, I wouldn't want to speculate, so my answer

20     would be this.

21             MR. THAYER:  I see we're at the break, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We must have the first break now.  We will resume

23     at 11.00.

24                           --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

Page 4488

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Thayer, please proceed.

 2             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3             And just to let the Trial Chamber know, we are rounding the bend.

 4     I think maybe another half an hour.  We're going to look at some maps and

 5     do some markings, and we'll see how that goes, but we're reaching the end

 6     of the sort of chronological --

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before you move to that topic, I have one

 8     question to the agreement we have seen.  It was called "Agreement," but

 9     the headline was "Decision," and the text supposes that it was a decision

10     by the War Presidency.  But was it discussed among you, the members of

11     the War Presidency, or was it just given to you as a draft from the other

12     side?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I remember, that's what

14     we received from the Serb side.  And a correct translation of the word

15     "odluka" is "decision."

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

17             Mr. Thayer.

18             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19             And the Prosecution would tender 65 ter 06418 at this time.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P736.

22             MR. THAYER:

23        Q.   By this time on the 27th of July, sir, can you describe for the

24     Trial Chamber, without necessarily going into all the specifics, but can

25     you describe the nature and the frequency of your contacts with the BiH

Page 4489

 1     authorities in Sarajevo?

 2        A.   My -- an additional question for me.  For what period?  The

 3     13th of July to the 27th of July, is that what you mean?

 4        Q.   Let's focus, say, from the 20th of July to the -- or the

 5     25th of July to the 27th of July.  I think you've already told us about

 6     the steps that you took after your meeting on the 13th, and again after

 7     your meeting on the 19th, and again after your meeting on the 24th.  But

 8     by this time, on the 27th, say from the 25th of July, what kind of

 9     contacts had you had with Sarajevo, and to what degree were you acting

10     and making decisions in consultation with them or not in consultation

11     with them?

12        A.   Well, let me put it this way:  After the agreement was signed on

13     the 19th of July, 1995, I remember that we -- or, rather, my first

14     contact, if I can put it that way, or, rather, contact with the political

15     leaders in Sarajevo, which I attended in Zepa, was in the evening of the

16     19th; the night between the 19th and 20th of July, in fact.  And I think

17     that there was some discussion and talks with Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, who

18     was president of the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina

19     at the time.  And as far as I recall, everything boiled down to the fact

20     that the civilians -- attempts should be made to pull the civilians out,

21     the women and children.  As for the army, we appealed at the time that

22     they try to reach an agreement with the Serb side on an "all for all"

23     basis at a higher level.  And that's mostly how -- what the outcome of

24     those contacts were.  And they said the following day in Sarajevo, there

25     would be an initiative launched via UNPROFOR to contact the Serb side.

Page 4490

 1             Now, the next contact was, as far as I remember, on the

 2     24th of July, in the evening once again, and we were informed -- or,

 3     rather, we informed Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, I think it was, of the fact

 4     that Zepa had, in fact, fallen, in military terms, and that an agreement

 5     had been signed with the Serb side so that the evacuation of the

 6     civilians would go ahead in the coming days.  I can't remember all the

 7     details now.  I might have had an occasion to look at some

 8     documents which -- this conversation between the War Presidency of Zepa,

 9     Mr. Alija Izetbegovic -- anyway, other contacts where I sat on the other

10     side in Zepa, they weren't audio conversations; they were protected

11     lines, protected communication.  The text would be typed out, and

12     feedback or an answer to that text would appear on the screen.  So I

13     didn't take part in any further negotiations and talks.  And in view of

14     the location of the devices used by the army for this purpose, it was a

15     relatively long distance away and you needed time to reach this location

16     on Mount Zepa.  And that was difficult, so you couldn't go there in

17     15 minutes.  You needed an hour or more.  Anyway, that device was one

18     which the army used, so that all the information coming in from anybody,

19     whether from the military or from the political leaders in Sarajevo,

20     reached that location, and that information was read -- the incoming

21     information was read by the army first, army members in charge of manning

22     the device, and then later on probably forwarded to Colonel Palic or one

23     of his officers.

24             The last thing I remember is that we informed Sarajevo that Zepa

25     had, in fact, fallen, in military terms, to all intents and purposes, and

Page 4491

 1     that the evacuation of the civilians would start the very next day, that

 2     is to say, on the 25th.  And I think we launched another appeal for them

 3     to find ways and means of ensuring that the able-bodied men in Zepa be

 4     exchanged for all the imprisoned Serb soldiers, an "all for all" --  on

 5     an "all for all" basis, and I think the response was that they would try

 6     to do something about that.

 7             So that's what I can tell you about the contacts with Sarajevo.

 8        Q.   Just to clarify one matter.  In your answer, sir, you refer to an

 9     agreement being signed on the 19th of July.  Was there, in fact, any

10     agreement signed on the 19th of July?

11        A.   No, that's my mistake.  It's not the agreement that was signed,

12     just the conditions that we were given by the Serb side were conveyed and

13     forwarded.  So no written agreement was signed or any piece of paper.

14     That's my mistake.  I misspoke.

15        Q.   You also told us that in one of the conversations with Sarajevo,

16     you were told that there would be some type of meeting or meetings to be

17     held at the airport in Sarajevo.  Do you recall that, sir?

18        A.   Yes, I remember that.  I think it was the last contact that I had

19     or the conversation I attended with the sides -- the parties in Zepa, and

20     that was the 24th, the night between the 24th and the 25th of July, 1995.

21        Q.   And to what extent, if any, did you, yourself, or your fellow

22     members of the Zepa War Presidency become aware, during this period of

23     time, that with respect to trying to reach an "all for all" prisoner

24     exchange agreement in Sarajevo, the issue of men from -- unaccounted men

25     from Srebrenica had arisen?  To what extent, if any, were you made aware

Page 4492

 1     of those developments in Sarajevo?

 2        A.   Not me, personally, I wasn't, because I think Colonel Palic had

 3     most information because the papers reached him directly, I assume.  But

 4     I wasn't informed about that, or at least I don't remember.

 5        Q.   You told us that you recall meeting General Smith on the

 6     25th of July.  Do you recall meeting General Smith at any other time

 7     again during these three days, meaning the 25th, 26th, 27th of July?

 8        A.   Yes.  The meeting with General Smith, well, I can't locate it --

 9     pin-point it exactly, whether it was the 26th or the 27th, but one of

10     those two days, and I remember it for the following reasons:  I don't

11     know how I received the information that Colonel Palic gave me, saying

12     that at the meeting in Sarajevo at the airport, that an exchange had been

13     agreed upon of the able-bodied men of Zepa for the captured Serb soldiers

14     and that it was a done deal, so to speak.  And I was told that I would be

15     informed about that further by General Rupert Smith at the meeting which

16     Sarajevo said would take place at Boksanica.

17             Now, when he arrived at the beginning of the meeting, I was

18     fairly relaxed at that point, and I think that I broached the subject

19     first and told General Rupert Smith about it.  And General Rupert Smith

20     was the commander, let me explain, of UNPROFOR for Bosnia-Herzegovina at

21     the time.  However, I conveyed this information, that everything had been

22     agreed upon over there, but I remember very well that

23     General Rupert Smith nodded or, rather, said, No.  He made this negative

24     sign with his head, said nothing had been agreed upon, and he started

25     looking back through his note-book, confirming that a meeting had,

Page 4493

 1     indeed, taken place at the airport between the representatives of the

 2     political leaders of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Serb side.  Anyway, he

 3     shook his head and said that nothing had been finalised.  And this was

 4     like a cold shower, as far as I was concerned.  That meeting might have

 5     been either on the 26th or 27th.  I can't be quite sure.  I can't confirm

 6     whether it was on the 26th or the 27th, but it was at check-point 2 at

 7     Boksanica.  UNPROFOR's check-point 2, that is.

 8        Q.   You told us that you were seized by VRS soldiers, whom you

 9     believed were military police, in the presence of UNPROFOR, including

10     Colonel Dudnjik.  Were you able to form any impressions, based on your

11     time in Boksanica and down in the center of Zepa, of these Ukrainian

12     peacekeepers?

13        A.   What I saw -- or, rather, from what I saw and in the brief

14     contacts that I had with Colonel Dudnjik, the composition of the

15     Ukrainian Battalion at the time in Zepa was -- in my opinion, they were a

16     collection of frightened young men who happened to find themselves in

17     this predicament, in this situation, so that they were not able to do

18     anything significant.  And as far as I remember -- I don't know if I've

19     said this already, but, anyway, on one occasion I remember talking,

20     through a radio-relay connection from Zepa, to a French general or

21     colonel who was at the time the commander of UNPROFOR for the Sarajevo

22     region or something like that, asking for assistance for us, and he said

23     he was just worried about the UNPROFOR soldiers' security and safety.

24     And as to all the rest, he said that that was up to the politicians to

25     find a political solution.

Page 4494

 1             So those are my impressions about these UNPROFOR soldiers and

 2     their attitude to the situation that they found themselves in.

 3        Q.   Were you able to observe or did you have any information about

 4     how well supplied or well provisioned these peacekeepers were in July of

 5     1995?

 6        A.   As far as I remember, during that period they had a problem with

 7     basic supplies; fuel, for instance.  I don't know if they had enough

 8     food, but I know that fuel was always a problem.  And so when I went

 9     there a couple of times using one of their vehicles, we always had to

10     stop off and tank up from another vehicle.  So I think that during that

11     period, they didn't have enough fuel supplies to function properly.  Now,

12     as to food and cigarettes, I can't say.  I don't know.  But I do know

13     there was a fuel shortage.

14        Q.   And when you were seized by these VRS soldiers and taken away

15     with Mr. Imamovic in front of their eyes, did any of those peacekeepers

16     try to intervene in any way?

17        A.   No, no.  I think that Colonel Dudnjik turned his head away, faced

18     the other direction, not to have to look at all that.

19        Q.   That brings us to the 28th of July, sir.  You told us that in the

20     morning, you were un-handcuffed from Mr. Imamovic, given breakfast, taken

21     to Boksanica.  What happened next?

22        A.   Yes, we were taken to Boksanica again.  I don't know what vehicle

23     it was.  I think it belonged to the Army of Republika Srpska.  And we

24     were escorted there by those two military policemen belonging to the

25     Army of Republika Srpska.  We sat to one side, and I saw General Mladic

Page 4495

 1     there again passing by.  He passed by me.  He didn't greet me at all.

 2     And as far as I remember, I was called in for an interview.  I was

 3     questioned by, I think, a security officer of the Republika Srpska Army.

 4     I don't remember his name or what he looked like, actually, but he asked

 5     for general information first.  The questioning went on for a brief

 6     period, maybe 20 minutes at the outset.  I don't know if we talked about

 7     anything else.  But, anyway, General Mladic then called the officer to

 8     him and said they were going.  And I remained there.

 9             After that, the military police, I think it was, of the VRS took

10     myself and Imamovic back to the hotel at Borik, and I think they

11     separated us on that occasion and put us into two different rooms.  We

12     spent about three days there, two or three days, as far as I remember.

13     And after that, we were taken out of our rooms, and I saw that

14     Mr. Mehmed Hajric was there.  He was the third man.  I didn't know

15     previously that he was also there.

16             Anyway, they transported us in a civilian car, a Volkswagen Golf,

17     I believe.  They took us from the hotel at Borike to the prison in

18     Rogatica, and I think that was the 30th of July, 1995.  We were put up

19     there in a separate facility, myself, Mehmed Hajric and Imamovic.  Well,

20     it was a prison, as I learnt later, which had another 40 elderly persons

21     and wounded incarcerated there, men who were part of the last convoy held

22     back at Boksanica.

23             And as I already stated, it was the following day when we were

24     brought there, the next day in the morning.  An International Red Cross

25     team arrived and registered us, and that's when we were given those cards

Page 4496

 1     and numbers and the possibility of sending messages to our families and

 2     friends.

 3             Some 15 days later, as I've already said, Amir Imamovic and

 4     Mehmed Hajric were taken off, not to return to the premises that I was

 5     in.

 6             During my time in prison, I worked as an electrician with the

 7     electrical installations and new facilities at Borike, and I spent about

 8     a month and a half at Borike, in fact.

 9             After some time, I think perhaps two months later,

10     representatives of the International Red Cross came to visit us again and

11     brought what we needed for personal hygiene, and some clothing, and

12     things like that.  And at the beginning of January, we were transferred

13     first to Kula, which is a prison near Sarajevo, which was controlled by

14     the Serb side, and we spent three or four days there waiting for an

15     exchange of some kind.  And then I think it was on the 15th of January,

16     1996, that we were exchanged according to the Dayton Accords.  I arrived

17     in Sarajevo.

18             So that would be it.  That was my journey and how I reached

19     Sarajevo from Zepa.

20        Q.   Okay.  Let's go back for a couple of follow-up questions.

21             When you were being held at that hotel in Borike over the

22     three-or-so-day period before you were taken to the prison, were you

23     under guard?  And if so, by whom?

24        A.   Well, yes, there was always one member of the Army of

25     Republika Srpska.  I think they were military police.  In every room

Page 4497

 1     there were guards, and we even exchanged words.  We talked about events

 2     and developments.  And if I can put it that way, we were on friendly

 3     terms.

 4        Q.   And with respect to the prison, can you describe, just generally

 5     for the Trial Chamber, where it was located?

 6        A.   Well, the prison was relatively close to the main road.  It was

 7     in Rogatica, which is a town in Eastern Bosnia to the south of Zepa.  And

 8     I had never been in Rogatica before, so that I didn't really know it

 9     well.  It was a small town, and the prison was on the premises of what

10     had been some kind of farm earlier.  And the administrative building

11     was -- the prison, itself, was in the administration building of that

12     farm.  It was close to the main road leading to Sokolac, at the foot of

13     Mount Romanija.  Let's say it was in the western part of Rogatica.  It

14     was a one-storey building.  There were no other floors, so it was only a

15     one-level building.

16        Q.   And if you remember specific names, that's fine, but I'm more

17     generally interested in who was in charge of the prison.  Who ran the

18     prison?  Was it civilian police, MUP, VRS?

19        A.   I believe that it was run by the Army of Republika Srpska,

20     because there was also a detention area, not where we were, but in a

21     different facility, where there were also members of the Army of

22     Republika Srpska who were detained there for two or three days, a sort of

23     military prison, and the prison, itself, was run by the Army of

24     Republika Srpska.  And I think that the warden or prison commander was --

25     I can't really recall the name right now, but you can find that out maybe

Page 4498

 1     from some other witnesses.  In any case, the security was provided by the

 2     military police of Republika Srpska Army.

 3        Q.   Yesterday, you mentioned being taken down to Zepa centre as part

 4     of your work as a prisoner, and that that's when you saw the destroyed

 5     mosque and torched homes.  Can you just tell the Trial Chamber when that

 6     was, approximately?  Even just a month, if that's all you remember.

 7        A.   It was probably in November, approximately.  It's very likely

 8     that it was November, November of 1995.

 9             MR. THAYER:  May we go into private session for one question,

10     Mr. President, please?

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

12                           [Private session]

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 4499

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Open session]

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session.

 8             MR. THAYER:  And that will be page 13 in e-court.  And if anybody

 9     has their hard copy map books handy, it's page 11 of the actual map book.

10        Q.   Okay.  Sir, do you have an image on your screen?  And I

11     appreciate, if you do, it's probably hard to read.

12        A.   I do.

13             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  Let's -- if we can blow up the section -- if

14     we see where it says "65th Protection Regiment base."  If we start at the

15     word "base" and blow up a section of those two squares on the map below

16     and to the right.  Sorry, keep going.  That's perfect, perfect, perfect,

17     perfect, perfect.  Okay, stop, please, and let's see if we can -- okay.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  For the sake of the record, Mr. Thayer, could

19     you -- I know that, but could you please repeat what it is about, what we

20     are seeing, and which kind of map it is, and who did the markings?

21             MR. THAYER:  Yes, Mr. President.

22             This is P104.  It is a map from the map book.  The map is a VRS

23     map that was obtained by the OTP.  The sections in white blocks --

24     rectangular blocks were added by the OTP, but all the other markings are

25     from the original map.  And I should add, if we look at the key, there

Page 4500

 1     are some items that are circled.  And as the key explains, obviously

 2     those little circles were also added by the OTP.

 3        Q.   Now, sir, you referred earlier in your testimony to a number of

 4     villages which were cleansed in 1992.

 5             MR. THAYER:  And if we can move the image slightly to the left.

 6     Keep going.  We'll see how much we can catch.  Keep going all the way.

 7     More.  Okay, and up a little bit.  Okay, perfect.

 8        Q.   I'm going to ask you simply to mark with a number a couple of the

 9     locations that you told us about earlier in your testimony, and I'll ask

10     you to do that with this little stylus that will -- there we go.  Do you

11     see the location of Podzeplje on the map?  And if you do, could you mark

12     it with the number 1?

13        A.   Yes.  [Marks]

14        Q.   And --

15        A.   [In English] Sorry.

16        Q.   That's fine.  I think we've lost part of the name on the map,

17     itself.  I think part of the actual name is still visible.  But can you

18     identify the general location, if you don't see the full name, of Rijeka?

19     And just put a number 2 where --

20        A.   [Interpretation] Yes, just a moment.  Where do you want me to put

21     it?

22        Q.   As close to where you would identify Rijeka as being.

23        A.   Actually, it's "Rijeke," with an E at the end.  [Marks]

24        Q.   My apologies to your language.  And can you place the number 3 at

25     the location of Godjenje?

Page 4501

 1        A.   Perhaps if you can scroll it up a little bit.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's not possible to move it anymore because we

 3     will lose your previous markings.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Okay. [Interpretation] Well, it's not really

 5     necessary.  It's quite all right.  A "3"?

 6             MR. THAYER:  Please.

 7             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

 8             MR. THAYER:

 9        Q.   And you referred to the location of Brloznik earlier in your

10     testimony.  Can you place a 4 next to that location, please?

11        A.   [Marks]

12        Q.   Thank you.  And you also referred to the village of Borak.  If

13     you can locate that and place a number 5, that would be helpful as well,

14     please.

15        A.   [Marks]

16             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  Now, I think we've got everything.  If we

17     could save it.  I don't know what the Chamber's preference is, whether to

18     have the witness initial it or not or whether it's sufficient just to

19     save it at this time.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You're tendering this document as an exhibit?

21             MR. THAYER:  We will tender it, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received, and no marking -- additional

23     marking necessary.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  The marked map will be Exhibit P737.

25             MR. THAYER:

Page 4502

 1        Q.   Now, you referred in your testimony to the confrontation line

 2     more or less running along a series of villages that included Godjenje

 3     and some others.  In July of 1995, during the course of the VRS attack on

 4     Zepa, did you become aware that defensive positions were set up on the

 5     northern side of the enclave?  I believe you told us that there was a

 6     defence line set up at the southern side facing Boksanica and that there

 7     were VRS attacks from the area of Godjenje.  Were there a defence line or

 8     were there positions taken at any locations that you're aware of on the

 9     northern side of the enclave?

10        A.   Well, I don't know much about that, but it would be logical to

11     cover some points in the northern part of the enclave, from -- in the

12     area where an attack was expected from; for instance, the

13     Brloska Planina.  Then Stublic would have been another location to set

14     them up at because you could reach the enclave going -- taking that road.

15     I don't know any others, but it would have been logical to do that, to

16     cover some of these points in the northern part.  And Colonel Palic was

17     involved in this.  And I know that I talked to some soldiers later on who

18     had been at the Prlog Mountain during the attack of the Serb Army on

19     Zepa, and from what they told me, I know that that area was shelled and

20     there were also infantry attacks, but I don't know exactly when

21     Brezova Ravni [as interpreted] fell, where exactly the lines ran.  I

22     really don't know, because it was only six months later that I actually

23     learned about this.

24             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  Well, let's scroll slowly to the right,

25     please, and see if we can see some of these locations which you've just

Page 4503

 1     mentioned.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is still P104?

 3             MR. THAYER:  Correct, Mr. President.  Yes, that's what we have on

 4     the screen.  Keep going and stop.  Perfect.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Again, we're looking at the same map as we looked at a

 6     moment ago, P104.  You, I think, just referred to a location,

 7     Brloska Planina.  If you can place a number 1, if you can find that and

 8     tell us what that actually is.  Does "planina" mean anything, does that

 9     word anything, and what kind of a feature or area is it?

10        A.   The word "planina" would be in English -- Brloska Planina is a

11     toponym and it's a mountain.  And there are some villages at the bottom,

12     Brloznik, and that's where the name, Brloska Planina or Mountain came

13     from.  So it is a mountain, it's an elevation.  It has an altitude of

14     over 1200 metres.  And from Brloznik to the plateau on the mountain, you

15     have to pass a very steep road to reach that plateau.  I don't know what

16     else to say.  Would you like me to put number 1 there?

17        Q.   Please, sir.

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   You also mentioned a location by the name of Stublic.  And if you

20     would place the number 2 next to that location, if you can locate it on

21     this map, and explain why that made a logical defensive position.

22        A.   All right.  Let me find Stublic.  Here it is, and I'm putting

23     number 2 there [marks].  And you can even see on this map that in order

24     to get to Stublic, coming from the north, you would take a road.  This

25     was not an asphalt road.  It was actually a path through the woods, but

Page 4504

 1     it was passable.  And this is where the axis of the Serb Army could have

 2     been.  They could bring their supplies in using this road.  So this is

 3     the road that could be used to reach the northern parts of the Zepa

 4     enclave, and that is why Stublic was very important as a defence feature,

 5     because once you reached the Zepa Mountain, then it was a fait accompli

 6     for Zepa.  And even if these positions, Brezova Ravan and others to the

 7     south, were completely protected, you would still have lost that area.

 8     So Stublic was a very significant defensive position.

 9        Q.   Now, in between these two locations you've marked as number 1 and

10     number 2, we see an area called "Radava" both in big letters and then a

11     smaller "Radava" underneath that.  I don't know if you can see that, sir.

12     It's roughly in between the two numbers you've marked, "Radava."  Have

13     you been able to locate that?

14        A.   Yes, yes, I've located them both.

15        Q.   And do you have any knowledge as to whether there was any

16     military significance to this area known as Radava?

17        A.   This is a familiar area, because I actually went through this

18     area in the summer of 1992.  Below Mount Brloznik, there was a plateau

19     called Radava, and it was possible to reach Radava.  You can't see it

20     here on this map, but there was a road leading from Kupusna.  I believe

21     that was the name.  So this was another road that could be used by an

22     army.  So Radava, too, was significant.  That is the road that you can

23     see right next to the letter R of the small letters "Radava."  I think

24     that's the road.  [Marks]

25        Q.   And just for the record, you've drawn a squiggly line emanating

Page 4505

 1     from the capital R of "Radava" going upwards to the left.  If you could

 2     just mark a number 3 next to this location, Radava, so we can refer to it

 3     later on when we review the record, please.

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Witness.

 6             We're done with this set of markings.  If we could save it, and

 7     the Prosecution would now tender this exhibit, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P738.

10             MR. THAYER:  Now, just one last set of questions on this map.

11     Again, we're going to stick with P104.

12             If we could just scroll down a little bit, please.  A little bit

13     more.  A little bit more.  A little bit more.  Okay, perfect.  Thank you.

14        Q.   Throughout your testimony, you referred to Zepa Mountain, and

15     you've also referred to a feature of that mountain by the name of Zlovrh.

16        A.   Zlovrh.

17        Q.   Thank you.  First, can you write a number 1, please, next to

18     "Zlovrh"?

19        A.   [Marks] I have.

20        Q.   Okay.  And when you referred to the portion of the civilian

21     population fleeing from the southern part of the enclave to Mount Zepa,

22     can you perhaps draw a square or some kind of shape which captures the

23     general area that you were talking about where these civilians were

24     congregating when they left their homes for Zepa Mountain?

25        A.   [Marks] Roughly here, the broader area.

Page 4506

 1        Q.   And if you could place a number 2 inside that rough circle,

 2     please.

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   We can see here that the area you've indicated lies within a

 5     portion of the map marked "Sjemec."  If you could perhaps underline the

 6     word "Sjemec" for us, please.

 7        A.   You want me to underline the name "Sjemec"; right?

 8        Q.   Yes, please.

 9        A.   I see it, but what do you want me to do?

10        Q.   Just underline it, please.

11        A.   [Marks]

12        Q.   Thank you, sir.  Now, was "Sjemec" a term that people from Zepa

13     used to refer to this location?

14        A.   No.  This is the first time that I see this "Sjemec."  I never

15     heard it used in Zepa.

16        Q.   Okay, thank you.  Now, you referred to the location of

17     Stitkov Dol.  If you could locate that, please, and write a number 3 next

18     to it.

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   Thank you.  And, finally, you referred to the Zepa River during

21     your testimony.  It might be a little hard to see, but if you could

22     locate that and just draw a line underneath where you can see the Zepa

23     River so it's easier for us to see and locate.

24        A.   [Marks]

25        Q.   Okay, thank you, Witness.  And if you would, please, just place a

Page 4507

 1     number 4 next to that marking.  Anywhere you like next to that marking.

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  We're done with this map now.  We can save

 4     it, and Mr. President, the Prosecution would tender this exhibit.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P739.

 7             MR. THAYER:  And with that, I thank you, Witness.  I have no

 8     further questions at this time.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Thayer.  You have

10     several times indicated the time you would use.  It was longer and

11     longer.  We were very patient with you, but I think it was very important

12     to receive this evidence of the witness.

13             Mr. Tolimir, would that be a convenient time to commence your

14     cross-examination or would you like to have the second break now in order

15     to prepare your cross-examination?  Perhaps, for the witness it's better

16     to have now a half-hour break and then commence the cross-examination.

17     It's a question to you and for the witness.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  As far as I'm

19     concerned, we can start straight away.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  If that

21     is the wish of the witness, we can do that.  I abide by your ruling and

22     his.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In that case, you have the floor and you should

24     start with your cross-examination.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 4508

 1             I'd like to officially greet the witness now, because we're going

 2     to have our communication now.  I wish him a pleasant stay and would like

 3     to emphasise that if there's anything he needs, whether he wants us to

 4     proceed more slowly or whatever, we can do that and switch topics that

 5     are not as taxing.  But we're going to continue the discussion of the

 6     subject that was discussed, the location of Zepa, the corridors between

 7     Zepa and Srebrenica, and I don't think that's a difficult topic.

 8             And for us to do that, let's have the map back up on our screens,

 9     please, document P504, it was, Prosecution document 504.

10                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

11        Q.   [Interpretation] So while we're waiting for the map to come up --

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Or, rather, may I have P504 called

13     up on e-court, please.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you asking for 504 or 104?  The last map was

15     P104.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] P04, because that's the whole

17     map -- the map book together and the Drina Corps, a close-up.  It's P107,

18     in actual fact, P107.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

20             And at this point in time, I would like to ask both speakers not

21     to overlap.  Because you are using the same language, you should pause

22     between question and answer and question, for the sake of the record and

23     the interpretation.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  It was my fault.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 4509

 1             Can we zoom in, please, so that the witness can see the place

 2     names better, "Srebrenica" and "Zepa."  Thank you.

 3             We can see the Zepa locality here.  That's right, that's fine,

 4     because now we can see both Srebrenica and Zepa.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Now, Witness, please, could you tell us precisely what corridor

 7     it was between Zepa and Srebrenica that you referred to, which at the

 8     beginning of 1992 was the route taken by you when you went from Zepa to

 9     Srebrenica and Zeleni Jadar?  So mark in that corridor -- the direction

10     of the corridor in pencil, and then put a number there.

11        A.   We would have to zoom in further.  I still can't read the names

12     properly around Zeleni Jadar.  I'll try and find where Zeleni Jadar is,

13     but it needs to be zoomed in.  Thank you.  Let's see what we get when we

14     zoom in.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to thank the technical

16     booth.  I think that is sufficient.  Now we can see both enclaves, so

17     let's see how they're connected.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   So put a dotted line, please, with your stylus, indicating the

20     corridor between Zepa and Srebrenica which was used by the population to

21     move from one region to the other.  So a dotted line, but so we can see

22     the place names, and you can put a number there where there are no place

23     names so that we don't write over them.

24        A.   I can't seem to find it in this Srebrenica enclave.  I need to

25     find Zeleni Jadar, which is some way off from Skelane.

Page 4510

 1        Q.   Let me help you out.  You don't need to show Zeleni Jadar.  Just

 2     indicate the corridor which went from the Zepa enclave, as it's indicated

 3     here, towards the Srebrenica enclave.  Just that connecting line.  You

 4     don't have to go to Zeleni Jadar now.  We'll come to that in due course.

 5        A.   I'll try.  But whether I'm going to be precise enough, I don't

 6     know.  I know that it ran along the Drina River, followed the

 7     Drina River, approximately like this [marks].  What number do you want me

 8     to put there?

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Put a number 1 in the same colour.  Thank you.

10        A.   You're welcome.  [Marks]

11        Q.   I'm going to remind you of a part of your testimony, and then we

12     can move on to my next question.

13             On page 4255 of the transcript of the 23rd of August, 2010,

14     lines 4 to 6, page 13, you said:

15             "Zepa lies in a valley, and, in the military sense, you can find

16     Zepa fairly easily, as opposed to some other locations."

17             Now, in lines 15 to 19, you said the following:

18             "If we are referring to the entire enclave, then the two enclaves

19     bordered on each other for a time, and you could walk from Srebrenica to

20     Zepa.  When I said that you could go from one enclave to another, I mean

21     passing through the villages that were found in the border area between

22     the two enclaves, Srebrenica and Zepa."

23             I think I quoted you properly from the transcript.  You can say

24     if I did or didn't.  And now I come to my question:  To the best of your

25     ability, could you mark on this same map the area in which for a time the

Page 4511

 1     two borders of Zepa and Srebrenica municipalities were joined, they

 2     touched upon each other, were right next-door?  So could you put a circle

 3     where the two communes touched?

 4        A.   Yes, you quoted me correctly.  When I said "Zepa," I meant the

 5     place, Zepa, which lies in a valley.  That's how I saw it.  And the

 6     border-line was over here [indicates], a route which I passed by a number

 7     of times.  I saw it as being the border -- let me just take a closer

 8     look.  The administrative line was like this, somewhere over here between

 9     the two [indicates].  Srebrenica might have been a little further to the

10     south.  [Marks]

11        Q.   Thank you.  Now, put a number 2, "AG," "Administrativnih Granica"

12     for administrative borders or the administrative line.

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   Now, my next question is this:  So that you don't have to guess

15     where the villages were, let's move to 1994 and 1995, and could you put

16     in a dotted line for the corridor used in 1994 and 1995 for coming -- for

17     going to Srebrenica and Zepa, because you said that this corridor was

18     used at the time, in 1994 and 1995.

19        A.   May we, please, zoom in to that area, please, next to where my

20     two lines cross.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is not possible.  We will lose all markings.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not possible, right.  I see.  I'll

23     try and do my best.  [Marks]

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25        Q.   Now, the defence of Zepa, which didn't change until 1995 -- move

Page 4512

 1     from Zepa to Srebrenica, that's easier, because you can't read the place

 2     names.

 3        A.   Thank you.  I apologise for taking up some time.  I'm trying to

 4     find a point from which I can proceed.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we just move -- can we just

 6     zoom in to the lower part of Zepa, please.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You don't want to lose the markings --

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we do that without wiping out

 9     the markings?  Thank you.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, it's not possible.  We should then save this

11     part, these markings, and start again with a different blank piece.

12             Mr. Thayer.

13             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, just to be on the safe side, looking

14     at the LiveNote transcript, it suggests -- and I think I saw the witness

15     trying to mark or actually marking something on the map after the "AG,"

16     and I didn't see anything appear on our version.  So I just want to

17     confirm that -- whether or not the witness actually marked something on

18     the map, because it doesn't appear to have been recorded.  So if there

19     was nothing after "AG," fine.  But if there was something that he marked,

20     I just wanted to double-check to be on the safe side before we save it.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Witness, did you mark anything which is not to be

22     seen on the screen now?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm trying -- well, when I tried to

24     find the corridor, by mistake I touched a point, and there's just a point

25     there.  So you can forget about that.  After I put the "AG" down, that

Page 4513

 1     point there doesn't actually mean anything.  I was just trying to get my

 2     bearings.  So I just touched that point, but -- so disregard the point on

 3     the left, a little upwards from the number 1.  That blue dot there

 4     doesn't mean anything.  It's just my mistake.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That's clear.  Thank you, that's sufficient.

 6             Do you want to have another part of this map?  Then we should

 7     tender this, and we will receive it and save it.

 8             I see you are in agreement with this, and then it will be

 9     received as an exhibit.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D86.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Again, please indicate, Mr. Tolimir, which part

12     of that map you want to have on the screen or zoomed in at the moment.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Could the witness please tell us which part of the map he wants

16     blown up so that he can indicate where the corridor that was used in

17     1995, the corridor between Srebrenica and Zepa, was?  Thank you.

18        A.   Well, first, could we see the map as it was before, before it was

19     enlarged, and then maybe I can help the technical booth.

20             Could we now just zoom in on the portion between Zepa and

21     Srebrenica so that we can see half of each.  A little bit more.  Can you

22     now -- yes, very well.  I think this is sufficient now.  This is what I

23     needed.

24             I will try to indicate this on the map, but I'm not sure that it

25     will be absolutely correct, because you have to bear in mind that I never

Page 4514

 1     went back since March 1993.  Let's say that the corridor ran this way

 2     [marks].  I don't know if that's sufficient for your purposes.

 3        Q.   Thank you, it is sufficient.  But could you please just continue

 4     with the blue line and go into Srebrenica, because we haven't -- we don't

 5     have it.

 6        A.   [Marks] Well, let's say it went this way, because I would need to

 7     have the map enlarged a bit more and I would need to actually determine

 8     where Jadar -- Zeleni Jadar is, because then that would be the road

 9     between Zepa and Srebrenica, because everyone would go via that place.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please now indicate in this blank space,

11     where there are no names or any elevations, and put number 1 there?

12     Thank you.

13        A.   All right.  [Marks]

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please enlarge this

15     map and zoom in on the text that was added by hand on this map so that

16     the witness can see whether this is consistent with what he knew about

17     the two municipalities.  So can we move to the right part of the map?

18     Could we -- first of all, I would like to tender this map into evidence

19     so that it doesn't get lost, and then perhaps we can do the next step.

20     Thank you.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is the right way to proceed.  It will be

22     received.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D87.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             Would you please zoom in on the part where it says "Enklava

Page 4515

 1     Zepa," the Zepa enclave.  That's in the bottom left corner of the map.

 2     Thank you.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   I've already read through this once, so perhaps you can take a

 5     look, read it to yourself, and just tell us whether this reflects the

 6     actual situation in Zepa as it was then.

 7        A.   I've managed -- oh, I apologise.  I just want to read the part

 8     about UNPROFOR.

 9             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, if I may.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

11             MR. THAYER:  I believe there is also an English translation

12     available of this text in e-court linked to this Prosecution document, if

13     anybody wishes to follow along.  There is a translation that corresponds

14     to this map precisely.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  It depends on the following

16     question of Mr. Tolimir.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I now answer the question?

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Please.

20        A.   Very well.  I've read this, and for the most part it is correct,

21     as far as I know.  But there is also -- there are also references there

22     that I cannot really confirm, such as the manpower of the Zepa Brigade.

23     Whether that is, indeed, as stated here, I don't know.  I can also not

24     confirm what kind of weapons they had, because I really was not privy to

25     that information.  As for the surface area and the total number of

Page 4516

 1     inhabitants, as well as the number of men working at the Public Security

 2     Station in Zepa, I don't know if that information is correct.  I think

 3     this number is a bit exaggerated.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Where you don't quite agree, would you please just

 5     put a question mark next to that item?

 6        A.   [Marks] Of course, as I've already said, I really don't know

 7     anything about the number of weapons.  For mortars, that's probably

 8     correct.  But generally speaking, I'll put a question next to all of

 9     this.  [Marks]  And I'm not claiming that this is not correct, but I

10     cannot confirm that it is.  There were some weapons there, but I don't

11     know the details.

12             But, again, as I said, the number of men, I don't know that this

13     figure is correct, 1700.  I think it was more like 1200 men.  And you can

14     probably deduce it based on the number of inhabitants.  That was between

15     7.000 and 8.000.  But that's generally all I can say about this

16     information.

17        Q.   Thank you.  But could you please put the word "generally

18     speaking" next to the question mark referring to this last portion, the

19     last question mark that you put, so that we know what you said about it?

20        A.   Well, look, I can put the word "generally" next to every one of

21     these question marks.  But whether there was a recoilless cannon, for

22     instance, I have no idea, so I can't --

23        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  It's sufficient because we have it in the

24     transcript.  In any case, you marked on this map all those matters that

25     you were not absolutely certain about.

Page 4517

 1        A.   That's correct.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Before we move --

 3     before we go on break, we will -- I'd just like to touch upon another

 4     topic.  It's relatively easy.  But before that, I would like to tender

 5     this map into evidence, and then I would like to see again the map of

 6     Zepa and Srebrenica, because I have some questions for this witness.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The map with the current markings will be

 8     received as well.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D88.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             Could we now please just enlarge this map and focus on Zepa.  We

12     don't need Srebrenica now because we are going to speak about Zepa only.

13     And I have some questions about the column that the witness mentioned.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   In your statement, in paragraph 5, you said that one kilometre

16     from Zepa, there was a JNA position called Zlovrh?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And you said that there were 15 soldiers on that peak and that

19     this column tried to bring some supplies to them, that the municipality

20     agreed to that, but then a conflict broke out because they wouldn't allow

21     to be escorted there; am I correct?

22        A.   Well, I'm not sure.  I would like to read through what I said

23     earlier so that I can be more precise.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             Could we please pull up this witness's statement.  That is

Page 4518

 1     number -- Exhibit number P -- what was the number?

 2                           [Defence counsel confer]

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's 1D248.  Could we please pull

 4     that up.  We need page 3 of that statement.  Thank you.  Page 3,

 5     paragraph 7, line 5.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think that should not be broadcast.  Is that

 7     correct?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             Mr. President, the name of this witness does not appear anywhere

10     on this page, and this is a statement that was disclosed to us.  And I

11     just wanted to show the witness this portion because he asked for it.  So

12     that's on page 3, paragraph 7, lines 4, 5, and 6.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

14             MR. THAYER:  If it's the section I'm thinking about that

15     General Tolimir wants, it's page 2 of the English, the very last

16     paragraph at the bottom of page 2 in the English, continuing up until the

17     next page, page 3.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for your assistance again.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think we should also pull up

20     page 2 and then go over to page 3.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I thank both Mr. Thayer and the

22     witness.  That is, indeed, on page 2, in the B/C/S version as well.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could we please have page 2 in the

24     B/C/S version as well, because right now we only have the English

25     version, the right page of the English version.  Thank you.

Page 4519

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, that's on page 2 in the

 2     B/C/S as well.

 3             Thank you.  Now we have it before us.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   And we see that in line 4, at the end, it says that request was

 6     approved on the condition that the Bosnian police be allowed to escort

 7     the VRS forces.  Could you please just correct it for the transcript and

 8     confirm that, indeed, you meant the VRS and not the JNA, because the JNA

 9     had already left that area; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes, that's correct, and it should be "VRS."

11        Q.   Am I correct -- did I quote your words exactly, where I said "on

12     condition that the Bosnian Army may accompany the VRS Army"?

13        A.   Yes, that's correct.

14        Q.   And VRS --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Without one exception.  It is written here

16     "Bosnian police" and not "Bosnian Army."  I don't know the B/C/S version,

17     but we should, for the sake of the record, be very precise.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I will

19     repeat.  I probably made an error.  It says here "the Bosnian police."

20     That's what it should say, and we will correct that:

21             "On the condition that the Bosnian police could escort ..."

22             And then instead of "the JNA," it should say "the VRS to the

23     position."  And, again, instead of "the JNA," it should say "the VRS

24     declined -- did not accept that condition."  So thank you.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 4520

 1        Q.   My next question is:  In paragraph 5 of your statement, should we

 2     replace wherever "JNA" appears with "VRS," is that correct, and is what I

 3     just quoted correct?  Thank you.

 4        A.   Yes, we should replace the "JNA" in all -- everywhere where it

 5     appears in this paragraph with "VRS."

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you wanted to deal with the map

 7     again, but we're now over the time for the break.  Perhaps we can deal

 8     with that after the break.  Do you agree?

 9             Okay, then we must have the second break now, and we will resume

10     five minutes past 1.00.

11                           --- Recess taken at 12.37 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 1.08 p.m.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Tolimir.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   A moment ago, we were looking at the passage in your statement

17     where you talk about the 1992 attack, and we've heard quite a lot on the

18     subject during this trial.  And General Mladic refers to it as the

19     canyon, but we did not pin-point the locations.  And also during the

20     testimony in the Popovic trial, that was mentioned too.  So I'm going to

21     read out the location from the criminal report that was used at that

22     trial, and you're going to indicate the locality on the map.  Thank you.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we now have D262 called up on

24     e-court, please.  It's a criminal report filed by the public prosecutor

25     of Sokolac with respect to the events that took place in 1992.

Page 4521

 1             And on page 1 of that criminal report, we have a list of names of

 2     the so-called perpetrators in the clash.  It hasn't come up on our

 3     screens yet.  It's 1D262.  That's the number of the document.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What we have on the screen now should not be

 5     broadcast.  Mr. Tolimir asked for another document.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 7             We have the document up on our screens now.  Thank you.  1D262 is

 8     the number.  And since there's no translation of the document, I'll

 9     explain what it's about.

10             It's a document from the Ministry of the Interior of

11     Republika Srpska, the Centre for Public Security of Sarajevo, and it was

12     written on the 20th of May, 1994.  And it represents a criminal report to

13     the public prosecutor.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   On page 1 of the criminal report, we have listed the names from

16     1 to 7 of persons, and number 5 is Palic, Avdo.  So could the witness

17     just tell us whether the data contained there about Palic, Avdo, is the

18     same Avdo Palic that we know, you and I?  So read what it says under

19     number 5.

20        A.   Yes, I'll do that.  That's it, but the number of the ID card, for

21     example --

22        Q.   Anyway, thank you.  The particulars are listed for each

23     individual, without the ID card number.

24             Now, let's move on to page 2, where it says in the statement of

25     reasons what locality it is, where it is located, and this will help the

Page 4522

 1     witness to mark in the correct location on the map.  So may we turn to

 2     page 2, please, now.

 3             And, Witness, would you kindly take a look at the statement of

 4     reasons, that paragraph.

 5             Can we zoom in?  It hasn't been translated, so I'll read it out:

 6             On the 4th of June, 1992, in the early morning hours, he set off

 7     from Pale across Han Pijesak from the direction of Zepa, with -- or one

 8     combat battalion of the type of the Army of Republika Srpska under the

 9     command of Dragan Suka, the aim of which was to take food, water,

10     sanitary material, and other equipment to members of the Republika Srpska

11     Army, making up a platoon located in the region of Zepa, who were there

12     to secure the military facility and the TV relay station on Zlovrh.  And

13     then it goes on to say -- in the last line, it says:

14             "On that occasion, 45 members of the Republika Srpska Army were

15     killed."

16             And then their names are listed.  Thank you.

17             Now, we're now going to take a look at another criminal report.

18     Well, let me ask my question first.

19             This statement of reasons, does it correspond to the events that

20     took place in 1992 as described?

21        A.   Well, let me say, in general terms, yes, with the exception of

22     the qualification made or what was said about who organised this, the

23     Patriotic League and Green Berets, as well as the fact -- and this is

24     important, as far as I'm concerned.  I wasn't involved in any

25     organisation of this attack.  I had nothing to do with the organisation

Page 4523

 1     of this attack, so I can't say whether there had been a prior agreement

 2     to pass through or not.  So that's what I would like to say.

 3             But in general terms, the route taken by the column, and the

 4     direction it took, and the events that took place, yes, that is correct.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

 6             Now, may we have document 1D265 displayed, please, and that is

 7     also a criminal report which was admitted into evidence in the Popovic

 8     trial.  And in the first eight pages of that report, we see reference to

 9     eight persons, and then we'll look at the statement of reasons for me to

10     refresh the witness's memory of the location so that he can indicate it

11     on the map for us.

12             Here we have the criminal report, and the person under number 1

13     is a man called Cavcic.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Could you read out his name?

16        A.   Mehmedalija Cavcic, son of Mehmed, et cetera.

17        Q.   You can read it to yourself, Witness.  And my question is this:

18     When you see him and the other persons listed there - number 3 is

19     Avdo Palic and so on - there are many individuals on that list who were

20     pinpointed as those who took part.  This criminal report was filed in

21     1995 to the Military Prosecutor's Office of Bijeljina, and it shows who

22     the prisoners were in the Corrections Centre in the republic.

23             Now, since one of those on the list was a participant, this man

24     Cavic -- Cavcic, have you heard of him and is that surname a surname you

25     would come across in Zepa?

Page 4524

 1        A.   Yes, that is a Zepa Cavcic, and let me put right the surname.  It

 2     is Cavcic, C-a-v-c-i-c, with diacritics.

 3        Q.   Yes, I got the name wrong.  But then it goes down the line to

 4     Palic, and we have eight pages of persons listed there.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we now show page 9, please.

 6     Page 9, paragraph 2.

 7             And we're now going to see what location the conflict took place

 8     between the persons read out and the military column.  Paragraph 2 reads

 9     as follows --

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I was waiting for the English

11     translation.  I think we have it on the screen.  Which paragraph is it in

12     the English?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  Paragraph 2, and in English

14     it is also paragraph 2, I believe.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is what it says:

17             "As soon as they arrived on the 4th of June at the place called

18     Riza, near Brloznik village, at the Han Pijesak-Godjenje-Stoborani

19     crossroads, they carried out an attack on a column of military vehicles

20     and soldiers of the Army of Republika Srpska, on which occasion they

21     killed 43 VRS soldiers, and officers took 30 soldiers prisoner ..."

22             Et cetera, et cetera.

23             Now, I would like to emphasise here - and thank you,

24     Mr. President - that this criminal report written in August 1995 reduces

25     the number of killed from 45 to 43, because the prosecution asked that

Page 4525

 1     these figures be amended, having talked to the participants in the event.

 2             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Now, I'd like the witness to tell us whether this description of

 4     the place where this occurred corresponds to the description of the place

 5     that you know about.  Was it the same place, so that after that, when you

 6     tell us that, we can mark it on the map, or, rather, you can?

 7        A.   The place mentioned on this page -- it's page 9.  As far as I

 8     know, that's where the conflict started.  But the main conflict took

 9     place in the direction of Zepa, a few kilometres further on.  The place,

10     itself, was called -- let me just think.  So the place of the main event

11     was two kilometres away from this place towards Zepa, roughly.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

13             May we now go back to the first map we looked at earlier on, the

14     one that was on our screens, for the witness to be able to indicate where

15     that place is, to mark it in on the map which was mentioned in these

16     criminal reports.  It is document 507 -- P1 -- no, P107 is the document

17     number.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm waiting for the map to appear

19     on my screen.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... there it is.

21             Mr. Tolimir, which part --

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

23             I'd like to ask the technical booth to zoom in to Zepa and the

24     communication line running from Zepa to -- from Podzeplje towards Zepa,

25     actually, which is where the event that we've just been discussing took

Page 4526

 1     place.  Thank you.  That's the area where we see the first red lines.  So

 2     may we now let the witness ask for the area he wishes us to zoom in for

 3     him to mark the place.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The cursor, can it be taken to the

 5     left and zoom in?  There.  Could you zoom in to that area, please, if

 6     possible?  Let me just take a moment to get my bearings.

 7             Before I identify the location, where the main conflict took

 8     place, it's called Buducin [phoen] Potok.  Buducin Potok.  I have to

 9     locate Brloznik in order to be able to determine the exact location.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Brloznik is to the north, the upper-most in yellow after "Zepa."

12             Now can we zoom out and then zoom in later.

13        A.   May we stop there, and I'll try.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Move the map a little bit up and then scroll

15     down.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May we go down a bit?  A bit more,

17     please, so that I can locate the center of Zepa, and that will make it

18     easier for me to find my way.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  A little bit more.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I have a little bit of

21     assistance to find Godjenje?  Where is Godjenje?  The yellow markings, I

22     assume.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The map should be moved a little bit up.  A

24     little bit more, please.  Thank you.

25             Mr. Thayer.

Page 4527

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't make anything out here, any

 2     letters or lettering.

 3             MR. THAYER:  If I may suggest something, Mr. President.

 4             The map loses a little bit of resolution when it's filtered

 5     through the computer screen.  I have a copy -- a hard copy of what's on

 6     the screen.  May I propose letting the witness look at a hard copy, which

 7     is much easier to read, and then he can find the corresponding locations

 8     on the screen, because it's the same document.  That might be easier, if

 9     we're going to be spending more time with this map, because it is blurry

10     on the screen as it is.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I see Mr. Tolimir is happy with that.  Please,

12     the Court Usher should give it to the witness.

13             MR. THAYER:  And for the record, I'm showing him page 11 of the

14     hard copy map book.  P104, I think, is the ...

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think I've been able to

16     find it on this map, but I don't know how you want me to proceed.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18        Q.   Could you please just look where Podzeplje is, and then put --

19     mark an arrow to indicate where the column was moving, and then also

20     indicate the place where the conflict was and mark it with red and blue,

21     respectively, as shown on the map here.

22        A.   Well, I only want to ask whether the map that we have on the

23     monitors is the same map that I have in hard copy here.

24        Q.   Yes, it is, that's correct.

25        A.   Thank you.  The place where the conflict was is right here

Page 4528

 1     [marks], a bit to the south of this spot.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please assist the witness

 3     and delete what the witness has just marked so that the witness can

 4     re-mark it?  Thank you.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I can find it really easily

 6     on the hard copy, but here it's a bit more difficult.  Well, let me try.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm sorry, we need your markings on the --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that my hand slipped again

 9     in the northern direction.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please indicate

11     the column and draw a longer line and indicate it as an arrow?  Thank

12     you.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, here [indicates], this is

14     where the column was coming from, and then the conflict was

15     here [indicates].

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Would you please indicate that in red?

18        A.   Well, perhaps someone can help me, because I only have the blue

19     stylus here.

20        Q.   Well, you can use the same colour.  So just put number 1 next to

21     the number where they were ambushed.

22        A.   Well, let me try and do it now.  [Marks]

23             The cross that I put there is the place where the clash was, and

24     I should mark it with "1"; correct?

25        Q.   Yes, correct.

Page 4529

 1        A.   [Marks] Well, I didn't really do a good job of drawing this arrow

 2     from where the column was coming.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this map so

 4     that we can proceed, because as we have it before us now, it's a bit

 5     blurry.

 6                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This map with the markings currently on the

 8     screen will be received.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D89.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.  Sorry, I didn't see you,

11     Mr. Thayer.

12             MR. THAYER:  I apologise, Mr. President.  But if I may make a

13     suggestion.

14             If we will be using this map further, there is a

15     better-resolution version of this that we can very easily put up in

16     e-court that's in P104.  The reason why this is so blurry is we're

17     blowing up a much smaller map to begin with, so the resolution gets lost

18     very quickly.

19             At page 11 of the hard copy, we have already a high-resolution

20     blow-up of this portion.  So if General Tolimir wishes to work further

21     with this Zepa map, we can easily get it up.  It's page 13 of e-court.

22     It will be much more legible, page 11 of the hard copy which the witness

23     is looking at right now.  I just make that suggestion if we're going to

24     spend more time on the map.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Should we have that on the

Page 4530

 1     screen?

 2             Yes, Mr. Tolimir is in agreement.  Then page 13, please.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I thank Mr. Thayer, and, of course,

 4     I agree this will make it easier for the witness so that he should be in

 5     no doubt whether he had marked it properly or not.  So thank you.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Here, now you can see Brloznik, the place, and now you can put

 8     the arrows on the column, the way it was moving.

 9        A.   You want me to do it again?

10        Q.   Yes, let's do it again, and then we can admit this into evidence

11     because this is a better map.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Do you see it properly or should we blow up a

13     little bit?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If possible, just a little bit.  It

15     would be more precise.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Upper left-hand part of it.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That will be sufficient.  Thank

18     you.

19             [Marks] Oh, could we delete this, please?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we assist the

21     witness, please?

22             THE WITNESS:  [Marks] [Interpretation] I'm too far north.  Could

23     we delete it one more time?  I apologise.  I need to put it down lower.

24             [Marks]

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

Page 4531

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Would you please put number 1?

 3        A.   Number 1 where?

 4        Q.   Well, number 1 to indicate the arrow that is leading from the

 5     road, and then number 2 at the spot where the ambush was, the line

 6     crossing the other one.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would now like to tender this

 9     into evidence, please.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now could we show the witness --

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D90.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now proceed, please.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now again see 1D262 so

15     that I can indicate the differences between these two criminal reports.

16     And could we pull up page 3, the last four lines in the first paragraph.

17     Thank you.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Page 3, please.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Here, now we have the last three

20     lines, and I will read them:

21             "It was impossible to identify the wounded who had been killed

22     because many of the bodies were burned and charred to a large extent."

23             And that is where we see the difference between the numbers that

24     were indicated, the 43 dead as opposed to 45, and that's the only

25     difference between these two criminal reports.

Page 4532

 1             And now could we pull up page 2, because I have a question for

 2     the witness once he can see what's written there.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Would the witness please take a look at the name under number 12

 5     and tell us whether this person mentioned here, Benjamin Kulovac, is the

 6     same person mentioned during the negotiations who was a member of the

 7     War Presidency?  Thank you.

 8        A.   Yes, it is the same person.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             I would like to tender these two documents into evidence, 1D262

11     and 1D265.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There are no translations yet into English.

13     Therefore, they will be received pending -- marked for identification,

14     pending translation.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I do have a translation

16     for one of them.  For 1D265, there is an English translation.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The second one, 1D265, there is a translation.

18     That will be received.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 1D262 is now Exhibit D91, marked for

20     identification.  65 ter 1D265 is now Exhibit D92.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

22             Please carry on.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Could the witness now please answer the following question:  Did

Page 4533

 1     Benjamin Kulovac propose that you be a member of the Crisis Staff, and

 2     did this happen in 1993, and is it the same person, the same

 3     Benjamin Kulovac that we just saw in this document?

 4        A.   I think so.

 5        Q.   Was he a member of the War Presidency at that time in 1993?

 6        A.   I think he was the president of the War Presidency in 1995 [as

 7     interpreted].

 8        Q.   Do you know, by any chance, who was the president of the

 9     War Presidency in 1992?  Thank you.

10        A.   I can't really say much about this.  I wasn't involved with Zepa

11     much until early 1993, and who the president was, I really can't say off

12     the top of my head.  Whether Benjamin Kulovac was actually the first

13     president or not, I really don't know.

14        Q.   Thank you.  It's not really relevant.  But I have a question now

15     that relates to some matters that were touched upon yesterday during the

16     examination-in-chief.

17             Judge Nyambe asked you about the things that General Mladic

18     mentioned about the incident in the canyon, and then Mr. Thayer asked you

19     about the same thing, and then we've seen these documents just now.  Now,

20     what we showed here, is that a reference to the same event that

21     General Mladic mentioned when he said that some Serb soldiers were killed

22     in the canyon?  Does that relate to these 43 soldiers?

23        A.   Yes, that's what he was talking about.  This was an incident that

24     everybody knew about in the area.  So when General Mladic mentioned the

25     Zepa Canyon, he meant this conflict that I described here and that I

Page 4534

 1     marked on the map.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell us whether this was the first

 3     armed conflict with a large number of casualties in this area, in the

 4     Zepa municipality and Han Pijesak municipality?

 5        A.   As far as I can recall, yes.  I think there was no previous

 6     conflict, and if there was, they would just be minor skirmishes.  But

 7     this was a real clash.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  You said yesterday, if you recall, that maybe people

 9     just set up an ambush there; correct?  Now, I would like to ask you

10     whether you did say that or not, that perhaps people just set an ambush

11     there.

12        A.   Yes, that's what I said, but I need to explain.

13             People just organised themselves, and then as the column was

14     passing - maybe I wasn't precise enough - they put up barricades or

15     obstacles to stop a tank that was going.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Yes, that's correct, you did not use the word

17     "ambush."  You said they put up obstacles on the road.

18             So my next question is this:  Did these people know that

19     Han Pijesak had approved the passage of this column all the way to Zlovrh

20     or were they -- or had they not been informed, and was somebody

21     responsible -- was somebody supposed to inform them that there had been

22     such an agreement between the VRS and the authorities?  Thank you.

23        A.   Well, as far as I can remember -- and I have to say again that I

24     was not in any way involved with any of this, so it is difficult for me

25     to answer this question with any precision.  But the contacts that did

Page 4535

 1     exist were between the people from Han Pijesak municipality with the VRS.

 2     So all I know is what I learned later on from other people, and I know

 3     that what I was told was that the Serb side had asked -- requested that

 4     this column be allowed to pass through and get to Zlovrh, and that the

 5     response of, let me put it that way, our Muslim side was that that would

 6     be allowed, but that the Bosnian police would have to escort them.  It

 7     was to the effect of what I said in my statement.

 8             Now, what transpired afterwards, what really happened, whether

 9     there had been an approval or not, I really don't know.  I'm not really

10     competent to speak of that.  I don't really have that information.  But I

11     do know that I was told that a request had been submitted and that the

12     response was that it was approved, but on the condition that the police

13     escort them.  But whether it had been turned down or not, I really don't

14     know.  Maybe that's what happened at that point in time.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us, then, please, whether this event

16     later actually had consequences for the overall relations between the

17     Serb and Muslim side and whether it had actually been a trigger for the

18     events in Bosnia overall?  In other words, was this event, this innocent

19     attempt to provide supplies to some soldiers, was that the trigger for

20     the events?

21        A.   Well, could you please repeat your question?  I didn't get it.

22        Q.   Well, all right.  My first question is this:  Do you feel --

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please don't overlap.  It's very complicated,

24     again.  You should always wait for the transcript to be finished at that

25     point in time.

Page 4536

 1             Please repeat the question now.

 2             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3        Q.   Witness, tell us, please, did the people of Zepa, where you were,

 4     and the people of Han Pijesak, where you worked until the 12th of May, as

 5     you said, did they consider that this incident was actually staged by

 6     some people from elsewhere and that this was the cause for all those

 7     victims that would come later on?

 8        A.   Well, I just have to make a small correction.  I didn't work in

 9     Han Pijesak.  I worked in Sarajevo, and I got to Han Pijesak and then I

10     couldn't go back.  Now, whether this incident was provoked by third

11     parties, I don't know.  But that it did have an effect on the further

12     development of the entire situation, the answer is yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.  My following question is this:  When was the decision

14     of the international community to recognise Bosnia and Herzegovina, when

15     was that made, and when was the decision for the JNA to move out of

16     Bosnia and Herzegovina made?

17        A.   Well, as far as I know, and that's already a matter for history

18     now, 15 years later, but the decision by the Assembly of Bosnia and

19     Herzegovina was adopted on the 5th or 6th of April, 1992, to proclaim

20     independence.  And the decision on the withdrawal of the JNA from Bosnia,

21     as far as I can remember, but take this with a grain of salt, I think

22     came in early May 1992.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We have to stop for today.  We are over time now,

25     and we are reaching -- I think you are moving now to a different

Page 4537

 1     historical area.  We should do that --

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will conclude this whole topic

 3     with one final question, if you allow me.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Okay.  Please carry on.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6        Q.   Was -- the decision taken by the European Community to recognise

 7     Bosnia, was that a legitimate decision?  In other words, was that

 8     something that was supposed to be taken by the Security Council as the

 9     body that regulates relations between various states?  And was such a

10     decision -- did it have far-reaching consequences on the relations

11     between Muslims and Serbs?

12        A.   Well, my answer to that would be that I'm not really competent to

13     speak about who in the international community is competent to proclaim

14     something and that that proclamation should stand and be valid.  Of

15     course, thinking about the events of 1992, the recognition, that is

16     clear, of Bosnia, just as the recognition of the other former states of

17     the former Yugoslavia, did have far-reaching consequences on the overall

18     relations.  But whether it was the European Community or anybody else who

19     were competent to recognise anyone, I really can't answer that question.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.  I thank you for

21     your answers, and I wish you a good weekend, and may it be restful.

22             And I would like to thank everyone here who has helped us.  I

23     thank the Prosecution and the interpreters.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Also, the Chamber would like to express their

25     gratitude for the work of the interpreters and the court recorders.  It

Page 4538

 1     was not always very easy to follow what is happening in the courtroom.

 2             Sir, next week we will continue with your examination.  You

 3     should be aware of the fact that that will take, I think, a couple of

 4     more days.  So we have to adjourn now.

 5             Be reminded again, no contact about the content of your testimony

 6     during the break.  Hopefully, you will have a good rest during a longer

 7     weekend.  We're not sitting tomorrow and you have the weekend.

 8             We resume on Monday, in the morning, I think in this courtroom,

 9     if I'm not mistaken.

10             We adjourn.

11                           [The witness stands down]

12                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.51 p.m.,

13                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 30th of August,

14                           2010, at 9.00 a.m.