1 Tuesday, 14 September 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning to everybody in the courtroom, and
7 especially good morning, Ms. Frease, again.
8 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I remind you that the affirmation to tell the
10 truth still applies.
11 THE WITNESS: Yes.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, yesterday you finished your
13 cross-examination, but perhaps there are -- during night-time, you --
14 during night-time you had, like Mr. Vanderpuye indicated yesterday, that
15 there's some additional questions, or was that completed?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning to everybody. May
17 God's peace reign in this house and may God's will be done and not
18 necessarily mine in these proceedings.
19 Your Honours, thank you for giving me the floor. I would like to
20 inform you that my cross-examination is completed. I would like to thank
21 you and everybody who has assisted me with the cross-examination of this
22 witness and also I would like to thank the witness, once again.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
24 Mr. Vanderpuye, your cross-examination -- your re-examination.
25 I'm sorry.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President. Good
2 morning to you, Your Honours. Good morning, everyone.
3 WITNESS: STEFANIE FREASE [Resumed]
4 Re-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:
5 Q. Good morning to you, Ms. Frease. I apologise for having you back
6 here again today. I have really just three areas that I wanted to cover
7 on re-direct examination so I'll get right to it.
8 What I wanted to have you look at is this binder here. It
9 contains within it P792, and this is the binder of intercepts which I
10 think you'd referred to before.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'd like to have that shown to the witness, if I
12 could, please. And then I'd also like to have it shown to the Court,
13 because I think it will be helpful to understand the context of the
14 witness's testimony.
15 Q. Ms. Frease, could you basically just describe the binder and
16 could you confirm that it is the binder, in fact, that you've been
17 discussing during the course of your testimony?
18 A. Yes. It is the binder that I've been discussing. And one of the
19 unusual features about it that I had forgotten until seeing it again is
20 that it was put together from left to right, so that the holes that were
21 made were made on the right-hand side of the column so that we would lose
22 as little text as possible. If the holes were punched on the left-hand
23 side, we would have lost more text. So we sort of worked from left to
24 right with the material.
25 Yes, I remember this binder well.
1 Q. You were asked yesterday, I think it was, some questions about
2 whether or not it contained certain notes or -- or indications?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And I'd just ask to you flip through that and see if you see any
5 such notes. There may be some, but there might not be, but I'd just ask
6 to you take a look.
7 A. In flipping through it, it doesn't appear that there are any
8 notes on any of the conversations in this binder.
9 Q. And does it appear to be in relatively the same condition as it
10 was when it was received?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And does it contain the -- well, does it contain page numbers?
13 A. It does.
14 Q. And is there an indication in the binder itself? It may be on
15 the last page although I'm not sure as to how many pages it actually
17 A. The last page says 548 pages, and it runs through ERN number
18 00728099. And these are handwritten page numbers on the top right corner
19 of each page.
20 Q. Do you know if those numbers were placed there by members of the
21 Tribunal or members of the 2nd Corps?
22 A. I believe when we received these, these were -- these numbers
23 were already here.
24 Q. Okay. And does it contain the same indications that you'd
25 mentioned during the course of your testimony with respect to the black
1 marks at the bottom of the page, where certain illegible portions as a
2 result of the photocopying?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And is that present intermittently or is it present throughout
5 the binder?
6 A. It appears to be present throughout binder.
7 Q. Does that comport with your recollection?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. All right.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: I don't have any more questions with respect to
11 this document. I would, however, like to, as we say back home, publish
12 this, that is, to have the Court examine it should the Court desire to
13 see it. I think it's -- it's a very probative of the witness's testimony
14 and I think it will help the Court understand the circumstances that the
15 witness was talking about in relation to the analysis of this material.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed, Mr. Vanderpuye, the Chamber would like to
17 see it.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Very well, Mr. President. Thank you.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And the Defence should have the chance to look at
20 it as well.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes. I have already shown it to Mr. Gajic,
22 although I have not shown it yet to Mr. Tolimir.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I don't need to see it.
24 Mr. Gajic has seen it. Thank you. If Mr. Gajic has seen it. Thank you.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic, did you see it? Have you had the
1 chance to look at this binder?
2 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, just briefly for some
3 15 seconds or so. Therefore, I would really like to have a better look
4 at it, if possible. Thank you.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We will give you the opportunity to do that.
6 Just a moment.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Chamber had, I think, 30 seconds to look at
9 it, but it appears that the last page has the number 00728100. The
10 witness saw the -- the second-last page as the last, but there's no other
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's correct, Mr. President. 8100 is the last
13 page, and I believe that particular document indicates the number of
14 pages that are in the binder and is stamped as well. It is very faint.
15 I think we saw it in e-court a couple of days ago. But I believe
16 that's -- that's correct.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And the first number appears to be 00727551.
18 Thank you. The binder should be given to Mr. Gajic.
19 While Mr. Gajic is looking at it, I think you may proceed and
20 continue your examination.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
22 Q. Ms. Frease, I wanted to refer you to a memo. That is P863. That
23 is a memo from Peter Nicholson to Mr. Ruez. I think you commented on it.
24 It's dated 18 -- oh, maybe I have the wrong number. P811. And that's
25 dated 18 December 1998
1 Rick Butler to Mr. Ruez.
2 Do you remember commenting about that?
3 A. I'd need you to refresh my recollection. I do remember the memo.
4 Q. Okay. In particular, you were asked about the circumstances
5 under which the notebooks of the 2nd Corps intercepts or the intercepts
6 taken by the 2nd Corps were found and in particular you remarked -- if I
7 may refresh your recollection, on page 5254 of the transcript, you
8 remarked as follows. A question was put to you by Mr. Tolimir.
9 "My question to you is: Did you check these registration numbers
10 on the notebooks, because I've seen here that some of them do not have
11 numbers, and can you tell us what could be the reason why they would be
12 marked and treated as official documents and documentation and later
14 And your answer was:
15 "The only thing I remember is that when the members of the
16 Office of the Prosecutor first found the notebooks at the northern site,
17 that the ABiH person with them was embarrassed that they were not kept in
18 an orderly manner and then he also said, Actually we shouldn't have these
20 Do you remember that part of your testimony?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. All right. And what I'd like to do is just to refer to you, if I
23 could, to page 2 of this document. Okay. And if you look to the -- I
24 guess it would be the fourth paragraph, fourth full paragraph anyway.
25 You can see it begins with: "They were located in a locked wooden
1 cabinet in the basement," referring to the notebooks.
2 And then after you can see the next sentence, I guess it's the
3 thirds sentence, it says:
4 "In fact they were just haphazardly placed in the cabinet and did
5 not look as if they had been touched in years. And then an ABiH official
6 explained in an embarrassed manner that the logs should not even be here
7 at this stage."
8 Is that your recollection?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And what I'd like to show you is, a couple of photographs that
11 were attended to this memo.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: If I could show 65 ter 6539.
13 Q. While that is loading, can I ask you, do you have a specific
14 recollection of how the notebooks were found or where they were found?
15 A. Only from what I was told.
16 Q. And if we could --
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just for the record, the original binder was
18 given back to the Prosecution.
19 Please carry on.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
21 Q. Have you seen this photograph before, Ms. Frease?
22 A. I don't remember having seen it.
23 Q. Okay. What it's described as in the memo --
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think it shouldn't be broadcast.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: You're right. Thank you, Mr. President.
1 Q. In the memo itself, in the last paragraph of the second page, it
2 indicates -- it reads as follows:
3 "Upon reaching the wooden locker, we observed that it was open
4 and that all of the documents had been organised and bundled."
5 And then it indicates a series of photos, 1, 2, and 3.
6 Now, have you seen any photographs, I should say, of the locker
7 in which these intercepts were found?
8 A. I don't think I have, no.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay, and if we could just blow this up a little
10 bit. That would be in the right -- I'm sorry, the left quadrant of the
11 photograph, if could you blow that up a little bit. I think it would
12 be ... the left top, I'm sorry.
13 Q. Are you able to recognise any of the documents that you see there
14 in the left-hand side of that photograph, that pile of books?
15 A. They look like A-5 size notebooks.
16 Q. And they similar to the style, I should say, and quality --
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: One moment, please. Mr. Tolimir wants to raise
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
20 To the Prosecutor's question, the witness said that she never saw
21 this photo, and then she stated that she only has second-hand knowledge
22 of the photo and now she is being asked questions based on the photo
23 having seen photos in the courtroom.
24 I don't think this should be done.
25 Secondly, the Prosecutor mentions intercepted conversations which
1 means that the intercepted conversations were printed after the war,
2 after the photos were seen. These are just handwritten notes in the
3 notebooks and only subsequently were those copied and made into printed
4 intercepted conversations.
5 Thank you.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 I do appreciate Mr. Tolimir's position. It seems to me that that
9 is his position as a matter of fact in this case. The questions that are
10 put to the witness are completely appropriate since we have already
11 established that the witness has first-hand familiarity with the
12 notebooks themselves, and I'm asking her to identify, if she can, the
13 documents that are depicted in this photograph as distinguished from
14 identifying the photograph itself. And so I think it is a perfectly
15 appropriate avenue of examination, and if the witness can identify them,
16 then she can. If she can't, she can't. I think it's a pretty
17 straightforward issue.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, if you use this photo for that
20 purpose, if the witness is recognising anything depicted in this
21 photograph, you should continue.
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Q. Ms. Frease, are you able to make out -- I think I was asking
24 whether or not these apparent notebooks bear similarity to the notebooks
25 that you handled back in 1998 and 1999.
1 A. The stack on the left looks like a stack of A-5 size children's
3 Q. Okay. And does that fairly describe the materials that were
4 handed over?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. All right. I'd like to show you another photograph, if I could.
7 And that's the second photograph. I think it's page 2 here.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: And if we could just zoom in a little bit on the
9 light blue notebook you can see there in the left corner. Maybe a little
10 bit more. Okay. That's not bad.
11 Q. Are you able to recognise any of the items that you see in this
13 A. The -- yes. I mean, some of them also appear to be these A-5
14 size children's notebooks. The one in the foreground, next to the
15 ashtray, looks like one that was -- could have been used during that same
16 period and also the blueish one on the stack, to the left.
17 Q. All right.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
20 I believe that the Prosecutor should phrase his questions
21 differently. He says, Do you recognise the -- this object? And then she
22 says yes, and then she says, I think it's similar.
23 We can't see the contents. We don't see the handwriting. I
24 think that questions could be phrased differently without suggesting that
25 the notebook is indeed the one in question without inspecting its
1 contents, without looking at the handwriting.
2 Thank you.
3 [Prosecution counsel confer]
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, indeed, you should be careful by
5 phrasing your questions. They shouldn't occur as -- or appear as leading
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I would just -- I
8 would just point out that my question was, are you able to recognise any
9 of the items that you see in this photograph, which I don't think --
10 other than the fact that I'm referring to items, I don't think is leading
11 in any respect to what they are, where they are, or any specific item.
12 But I -- I do take your point and I will be attentive to that issue.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Connect your question with the request of the
14 Usher to focus on the light blue item on the left top side of the
15 photograph, then I think it's merely on the border.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, you're right. Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Q. I'd like to show you -- well, let me ask you, do you recall how
18 these notebooks were actually transferred, in what condition notebooks
19 were transferred to the members of the Tribunal?
20 A. They were put in a box and sealed until the Office of the
21 Prosecutor took possession of them, once they had been transported from
22 the site to 2 Corps down in Tuzla
23 Q. I'd like to show you page 5 -- I may be mistaken. Page 8, I'm
25 Do you recognise this?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And what do you recognise it to be?
3 A. A box that Peter Nicholson and a member of the 2 Corps signed
4 their names on after sealing it with the contents, and the contents being
5 the notebooks.
6 So on the subsequent mission in April of 1998, when I was in
8 contained within it.
9 Q. And you can see on here on this photograph there's a date,
10 11 March 1998
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Is that of any particular significance?
13 A. It was the day that the box was sealed. There was also a sense,
14 or maybe a hope on the side of the Office of the Prosecutor, that the --
15 those documents would be handed over on that day. We didn't find out
16 until the 12th of March that, in fact, the Office of the Prosecutor would
17 need to wait for approval from the Ministry of Defence, I believe it was,
18 from the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
19 Q. I'd just like to show you one other photograph, and that's -- I
20 think it's page 9.
21 Do you recognise what's depicted here?
22 A. Yes. That's the same box.
23 Q. All right. Thank you.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I'd like to tender these
25 photographs. I suppose I should do it as we go. They all fall under
1 65 ter 6539. There are ten of them in all, but I haven't shown the
2 witness all of them. They were all, however -- well, no, I'm sorry.
3 1 through 6 of them are referred to specifically in P863 -- I'm sorry,
4 P811. That is the memo itself. Photographs 1, 2, and 3 are referred to
5 in this last paragraph -- and 4, I should say, are referred to in the
6 last paragraph of page 2 of the document. And photos 5 and 6 are
7 referred to and indicate the box or refer to -- and the last page, the
8 third page, of the -- of the exhibit.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: They will be received.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P998.
11 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I do realise that P811 as it is
13 in e-court has certain redactions and those redactions I think survived
14 the last trial so that the document could be made public. We do have an
15 unredacted version which I would like to have the Court -- like to -- to
16 be before the Court in addition to the -- to the redacted version, which
17 I suppose we can upload, and perhaps we can designate it A or B of -- of
18 P811 so that's it clear and the Court has full information concerning the
19 participants in this -- in this mission and that are referred to
20 specifically in the -- in the -- in the memo.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This document should not be broadcast. If you
22 are now calling it up in e-court.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: It's not actually in e-court yet, so ...
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Microphone not activated] ... see the purpose of
25 tendering that document if it is not in e-court yet. We have the public
1 redacted version.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think this is sufficient.
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right.
5 I will move to my next area and last area, actually.
6 Q. During the course of your cross-examination, it was suggested in
7 a number of ways that the ABiH and Bosnian MUP fabricated the intercept
8 evidence, the suggestion that they perhaps received this information from
9 other sources, the Americans and other -- other countries operating in
10 the area during the war, was made. And, in particular, you were asked a
11 number of questions, including -- and I would refer to page 5250,
12 3 through 12. The question was put to as follows:
13 "Q. Thank you. What I'm asking you is this: We have seen
14 quotes from the report on Srebrenica of the Dutch Institute for War
15 Documentation. It's a very serious and voluminous analysis which you can
16 read and then make the conclusion that you just made, but my question is:
17 Did the OTP analyse at all how many people were needed on the southern
18 and northern location to be able to monitor the radio network of the
19 Army of Republika Srpska at the time the events in Srebrenica and Zepa --
20 of the events in Srebrenica and Zepa to intercept them, transcribe them
21 in realtime and put them into notebooks and on paper and pass this on to
22 their immediate superiors and up to the highest level of command?"
23 And your answer was: "No."
24 You were also shown a document which was P -- I'm sorry, D48, and
25 you were read, in part, the following quote:
1 "Nonetheless, an ABiH General claimed that the messages were
2 actually intercepted and analysed in realtime and it was your
3 understanding that they were," that is the ABiH was, "actually able to
4 process intercepts in realtime."
5 Do you recall those parts of your testimony?
6 A. I recall the first part. I do not recall the second part which
7 is quoted as: "Nonetheless an ABiH General claimed that the messages
8 were actually intercepted ..."
9 I don't recall the part about an ABiH General claimed that the
10 messages were actually intercepted and analysed.
11 Q. I'm sorry, that's not your statement. That's a statement from
12 Exhibit D48, which was a document that was put to you by Mr. Tolimir.
13 That's just a quote from the book.
14 A. That helps, thank you.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, just for the sake of the record,
16 in page 13, line 21, I think it's the wrong reference recorded. It
17 should read page 5250, lines 3 through 12; is that correct?
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: That is correct, 5250, 3 through 12.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, but the 3 was connected to the page number.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please carry on.
22 MR. VANDERPUYE:
23 Q. First, is it your understanding, while the document that was
24 shown to you by Mr. Tolimir spoke about deficiencies in the ability of
25 the Bosnian army to intercept radio and radio relay communications, it
1 did not refer to any specific weaknesses on the part of the VRS in terms
2 of their ability to protect their radio communications? Is it your
3 understanding that the ABiH intercepted VRS communications in realtime,
4 based upon your investigation and based upon the information that you've
5 gotten from talking with operators and so on?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And do you know whether the VRS and in particular the security
8 organ of the VRS was aware that the ABiH had the ability to actually
9 intercept their radio communications?
10 A. Yes, it appeared so. It came through their responses at times,
11 amongst themselves, that they didn't want to discuss certain subjects
12 over the radio.
13 Q. I'd like to show you a document.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: It should be 65 ter 2600, 2-6-0-0.
15 While this is loading, Ms. Stewart has reminded me that P998,
16 those -- the set of photographs should be under seal, so I would ask for
17 them to be placed under seal, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Microphone not activated] ... one photo should
19 be under seal. Why the whole set?
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: They all apparently indicate the location of the
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: More than the other photos than the first one.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: I believe so.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: They will be received under seal.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 Q. Okay. What I'm showing you here is a document, as can you see
2 from the title of it, it's -- it indicates Military Post 7469, Zvornik.
3 It says "Security organ." If we go down to the bottom of the page we can
4 see that it signed by chief of the security, chief of security,
5 Lieutenant Drago Nikolic, is what it says; right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And this is the Drago Nikolic you testified about before in your
8 direct examination?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And I'd like to draw your attention specifically to the first
11 paragraph of this document. You can see that it is dated
12 22nd April 1993
13 paragraph of it reads as follows:
14 "NATO planes conducted electronic jamming and reconnaissance a
15 few times as part of the padobran," indicating parachute, "and zabranjeni
16 letovi," no-fly operations. "We have confirmation that the enemy is
17 intensively intercepting our radio and radio relay communications and
18 particularly active are their interception centres in Tuzla and at Trovrh
20 Now, have you seen this document before?
21 A. No.
22 Q. And the representations that are made here by Lieutenant Nikolic,
23 are they consistent with your understanding of the capabilities of the
24 ABiH in terms of intercepting VRS radio communications?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. I'd like to show you another document.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in the document
4 itself it says that NATO is doing such and such things, NATO is
5 reconnoitring and jamming, and now the question to the witness refers to
6 the BH Army.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think Mr. Tolimir is referring to the first
9 line of the document. The second sentence of the document refers
10 specifically to radio and radio relay communications which are active at
11 interception centres in Tuzla
12 I don't know if Mr. Tolimir is representing that NATO had
13 interception centres in Tuzla
14 then it seems to me that the only reasonable inference from this document
15 is that the enemy that's being spoken about in that sentence is the
16 enemy -- is the -- is the -- is the ABiH.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The first sentence says clearly
19 NATO and then it goes on to say that it is the enemy. There's nothing to
20 say that NATO was not another enemy, because they acted against all Serb
21 positions. And these locations referred to here, they are listening and
22 intercepting centres. The text does not say who established them.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I think there are many possibilities
24 to -- for interpretation of this sentence. It is not the right time
25 to -- to continue this discussion about interpretation. At the end of
1 the day, the Court will have to give weight to that.
2 Mr. Tolimir.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I would offer this --
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir --
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: Oh, I'm sorry. Sorry.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- wanted to say something.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
8 It is common knowledge that in the war in Bosnia, Tuzla
9 centre of all NATO activities. NATO had an air field there. They even
10 set up their own centres on Mount Majevica
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
12 Mr. Vanderpuye.
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: I would like to tender this document into
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Chamber will not receive this document as an
17 exhibit because this witness was not able to identify this document. She
18 hasn't seen it before and can't comment the content of this document,
19 only her -- she was referring to her knowledge about some things also
20 mentioned in this document. But the document is not -- will not be
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. May I have the
23 document at least marked for identification so that it's clear what the
24 witness was referring to when it is introduced through the proper
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be marked for identification, and you may
2 use it with another witness, if there's an appropriate one.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much. I have another such --
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: One moment.
5 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 2600 will be Exhibit P999 [Realtime
6 transcript read in error "P99"], marked for identification.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: I have another such document which I'd like to
8 show the witness. Unfortunately, I don't think we have a translation of
9 this one, so maybe you can -- oh, we do. Okay. We have a translation of
10 it. That's 65 ter 5283, please.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Considering this document is going
13 to be marked for identification, I feel it is my duty to say that these
14 are not the northern and southern sites, and these facilities do not
15 belong to the northern and southern sites about which this witness is
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I understand you, but this document
18 is not in evidence and will not be in evidence. It is just marked for
19 identification so that everybody knows what it -- what we were talking
20 about today. Unless it will be received through another witness.
21 Please carry on, Mr. Vanderpuye.
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Q. This document you can see here is from the command of the
24 Drina Corps and it's dated 23 June 1995
25 A. No.
1 Q. Okay. And you can see that it's signed by, at least type-signed
2 by Lieutenant-Colonel Vujadin Popovic. Is that the same Vujadin Popovic
3 that you spoke about during your direct examination?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And can you see here that it's addressed to the security chiefs
6 of a number of VRS units --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. -- the 1st -- 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade, 5th Podrinje
9 Light Infantry Brigade, the 1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade, Birac Brigade,
10 Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade and so on?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And it is entitled "Discipline in radio communication followed by
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I would direct your attention to the first paragraph of this
16 document which reads that:
17 "Through reconnaissance on the enemy's radio communications and
18 information transmitted via radio, we have obtained information that our
19 units are extremely careless when using communications equipment and do
20 not verify the cryptographic data protection value of the communications
22 It then goes on to say:
23 "Take all measures to ensure that these devices are not used to
24 send documents classed confidential and higher, for they offer
25 practically no protection of confidentiality. They may be used solely
1 for transmitting less important information of an urgent nature --"
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please slow down, Mr. Vanderpuye.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: "With mandatory use of general cryptographic
4 data protection documents."
5 The last paragraph reads:
6 "We hereby call attention to the application of general
7 cryptographic data protection documents and more frequent changes of
8 working frequencies and call-signs, which would better ensure -- which
9 would ensure better protection for the information transmitted."
10 Q. In terms of the observation concerning the careless use of
11 communications equipment, does that correspond with your understanding
12 concerning VRS radio communications, how they were conducted?
13 A. Yes. And I can give a couple of examples from comments that
14 radio intercept operators made. One of the comments was that the VRS
15 very rarely, if ever, changed their frequencies and call-signs and for
16 that reason it made it easy for them to intercept VRS communication.
17 Yesterday -- during yesterday's session I also mentioned an
18 incident, I believe it was in 1993, when BiH radio operators had
19 intercepted an important Serb communication and had broadcast it and
20 exposed at that point their ability to do so. After that, they were --
21 the BiH was much more careful about protecting their ability to intercept
22 VRS communication. But, as I mentioned, they did talk about their
23 ability to do so because the VRS very infrequently, if ever, changed the
24 frequencies on which they were communicating and the call-signs that they
25 were using.
1 Q. Thank you, Ms. Frease.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I have the same application as I
3 did with the other document. I think I would ask to move this into
4 evidence but seeing it -- in view of the Court's position on that, I will
5 ask to have it marked for identification, to be used with another
7 THE WITNESS: I would also -- I don't know whether I have the
8 right to note this or not, but during Friday's session when the defendant
9 suggested that the MUP and the BiH fabricated this material, it was also
10 suggested and insinuated that I had had improper contact with either one
11 or both of these groups during that time and that I had possibly violated
12 terms of confidentiality of the Tribunal. And I simply want to make
13 clear that none of that is true.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much for that statement.
15 The document on the screen will be marked for identification so
16 that everybody knows what we were talking about today.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1000.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I have one last
19 document to show the witness and that's 65 ter 5703. Thank you.
20 Q. As can you see, this document is from the Main Staff of the Army
21 of Republika Srpska. It is from the sector for intelligence and security
22 of the security administration, and it's dated 1st September 1995
23 can you see in the -- in the first paragraph it is directed to the
24 security departments of the 1st Krajina Corps, the 2nd Krajina Corps,
25 East Bosnia Corps, and the Drina Corps, among others. And it is -- I
1 want to direct your attention to the second paragraph from the bottom of
2 this document, and it reads that:
3 "As everyone is aware of and since the Main Staff and lower
4 command has called to your attention many times, the secret military
5 information leak constantly via communication means (radio relay devices
6 and radio stations)."
7 If we go to the next page in English - same page in B/C/S - we
8 can see at the -- in the -- well, the first complete paragraph on the
9 page. It says:
10 "Many times so far we learned through electronic reconnaissance
11 that the communication means are being used without caution and that
12 secret military information is leaking. Every time we learned about
13 careless use of communication means we advised the units. Keeping all of
14 this in mind, as you already know, the purpose of our radio
15 reconnaissance unit is not to monitor and spy on our communication but
16 only enemy communications and in the system of securing the intelligence
17 of combat operations [sic] so that we learn only by accident the
18 information about negligence in use of our communications.
19 "We are giving you the latest example of careless use of
20 communication means ..."
21 And it follows through with an intercepted communication.
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: If we can go to the next page I think in both
23 documents, page 2 in B/C/S and page 3 in the English.
24 Q. You see the full text of this intercept, or at least some text of
25 the intercept. And it concludes that:
1 "It is necessary to start again an initiative through corps
2 commands and lower commands, down to the last user of the radio relay and
3 radio communications to use protected lines and coded teletype
4 communication to the maximum, and in case they use radio communications
5 [sic] to do it carefully and with maximum usage of coded books or TUS,"
6 it reads, "expansion unknown."
7 On the right, you can see that this document was type-signed by
8 Ljubisa Beara. Is that the same Ljubisa Beara that you referred to your
9 direct testimony?
10 A. His title is different here, but to my knowledge, there is only
11 one Ljubisa Beara.
12 Q. And --
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, if you look at the B/C/S version
14 we only see "Ljubisa Bea," and there is a line going down --
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: You're right.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You don't see the name you were quoting.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: You're right. I see it in the translation and I
18 apologise for that. I hadn't noticed the -- the indication in the -- in
19 the B/C/S.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Correction for the record, you see only
21 "Ljubisa Bea." B-e-a. B-e-a, again. The transcript is wrong. We only
22 see "Ljubisa Bea," B-e-a, in the B/C/S version.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE:
24 Q. Do you know what position Ljubisa Beara held in the VRS?
25 A. During the events in July of 1999 [sic], he was the chief of
1 security for the Main Staff of the VRS.
2 Q. All right. Just for the record, you -- the record records that
3 said 1999?
4 A. Oh. 1995.
5 Q. Okay. And in terms of the substance of this document, does this
6 comport with your understanding of how VRS radio relay and radio
7 communications were conducted during 1995 in particular? The reference
8 here is that --
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: If we can go to the first page in the English
10 and I think the first page in the B/C/S as well.
11 Q. And I was just referring you specifically to Colonel Beara's
12 observation that everyone is aware - in the second paragraph - that
13 military information leaks constantly through a communication means,
14 radio relay devices and radio stations.
15 Does that correspond with your understanding of the way VRS
16 communications were conducted during that period of time?
17 A. Yes. In the intercepted communication, there were a number of
18 references to -- by VRS officials who said that they did not want to talk
19 about particular subjects over the radio. And there were references, I
20 remember even later than 1995, July of 1995, where someone was being
21 reprimanded on the radio for the way that he was using it and the
22 information that he was conveying over it.
23 With respect to this document and the title of the person who
24 signed the document, I don't -- haven't seen the English translation of
25 the person who signed it but I think it said "chief" and then -- well,
1 maybe we can just go to the last page and to the translation and how --
2 what that person is called.
3 So it's translated here as "Chief Naval Captain Ljubisa B-e-a."
4 That's a -- strikes me as a slightly odd way for him to be referred to in
5 September of 1995, but I am not a military expert. However, I do know
6 that Ljubisa Beara had been in the navy in the JNA, in the
7 Yugoslav National Army.
8 Q. Thank you for that, Ms. Frease.
9 In terms of the substance of the intercept that is recorded in
10 this particular document, the Prosecutor has a tape of this conversation
11 which, unfortunately, you've not had the benefit of hearing. For the
12 record, the transcription of that tape is ERN 05440181 through 05440183,
13 obtained from the Tesanj State Security office.
14 But, that aside, having seen these documents, particularly
15 authored by members and chiefs of the security administration or organ of
16 the VRS from 1993 through 1995, can you tell us how these documents
17 relate to the conclusion that you've reached about the reliability and
18 authenticity of Bosnian intercepts and interceptors?
19 A. Yes. Just with respect to the first part of your statement, in
20 fact, I may have seen the transcript of this document, and it could be
21 the one that I was referring to up above, where I remembered that there
22 had been this fairly lengthy reprimand of the way that the radio
23 communication was being used and that it was after the events of
24 Srebrenica in July of 1995. So, in fact, we could be talking about the
25 same thing.
1 With respect to the second part of your statement, these
2 documents are consistent with, and I would say support, the conclusions
3 of authenticity and the reliability of the Bosnian intercepts. I would
4 say that they go more to the authenticity of the Bosnian intercepts,
5 because I think of reliability more in terms of the internal procedures
6 that were followed in the process of interception.
7 Q. Well, thank you very much for that, Ms. Frease. That concludes
8 my re-direct examination.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I'm not sure if I've offered this
10 one for -- for admission. I think I'll make the same application and
11 have it marked for identification. It's 65 ter 5703.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be marked for identification.
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit P1001, marked for
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, my learned friend
18 from the Prosecution, in his additional examination, raised some issues
19 that were not dealt with in the examination-in-chief, and in that sense,
20 I think I would -- I think I -- I would have a -- the right to pose some
21 additional questions to the witness to deal with the questions that
22 Mr. Vanderpuye has just asked.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 [Prosecution counsel confer]
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, would you like to comment on the
1 request of Mr. Tolimir?
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President, thank you.
3 Mr. President, I have addressed specific areas of the
4 cross-examination which I think I have prefaced with respect to every
5 area that I went into. I don't know that Mr. Tolimir has identified any
6 specific area which was not responsive to the cross-examination and which
7 fundamentally raised issues that are new altogether. The documents that
8 I presented the witness with go specifically to the issue that was raised
9 by Mr. Tolimir or the assertion that Mr. Tolimir raised during his
10 cross-examination that the Bosnian authorities or the army and the MUP
11 did not have the capacity to intercept communications, VRS
12 communications. It is our position that what the documents show is
13 precisely the opposite. Not only the opposite but that that was
14 specifically known and acknowledged by members of the VRS and, in
15 particular, by members of the security organ over whom the accused had a
16 superior/subordinate relationship, and, therefore, it would have been
17 known to the accused. At least arguably.
18 There's nothing new in that. There's nothing new in the
19 documents that I have used in terms of their relationship to the points
20 that were raised by the accused. If he is prepared to identify the
21 specific areas of re-direct examination which he thinks are new and
22 require him to address the witness and the Court, then I -- then I think
23 it could be appropriate. But in -- I don't think it's appropriate in the
24 context of a blanket statement simply asserting that there's something
25 new in the record that he needs to address. If can he particularise it,
1 then I think it is something that we can more appropriately address and
2 deal with.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, do you want to respond to that?
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Yes, of
6 For example, here, this is 65 ter 6539, Prosecutor's document,
7 which was drafted on the 1st of September, 1995, after the events that
8 we're talking about. Could this document, 65 ter 6539, be displayed to
9 display the date when it was drafted.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just a moment, Mr. Tolimir.
11 My question was not -- it was if you want to comment on this
12 statement of Mr. Vanderpuye. Otherwise, first, the Chamber would like to
13 issue a decision.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. Yes, of course.
15 Mr. Vanderpuye was dealing with the issue of frequencies of the
16 Army of Republika Srpska which is something that he didn't do during his
17 main body of examination-in-chief. If that's what you had in mind when
18 you asked me about my basis for additional questions that I wish to put
19 to the witness.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Chamber is of the view that it would be in
22 the interests of a fair trial to give Mr. Tolimir the opportunity to put
23 some additional questions to the witness. The Chamber has the discretion
24 to grant his request, and you should put some additional questions to the
1 Mr. Tolimir, now please proceed.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Could
3 the court please produce 65 ter 6539, a Prosecutor's document, which was
4 displayed just a while ago.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This should not be broadcast; it's under seal.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise, I'm -- asked for 6539.
7 That's the document that I asked for. The last document about Beara,
8 where Beara's name is not complete, the one that the witness has just
9 commented upon.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, that was 65 ter 5703. I --
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before it is displayed to avoid
13 wasting time, we were talking about frequencies.
14 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Could the witness please tell us whether, during
16 her investigation work, she checked the frequency of changes of the
17 frequencies of the Army of Republika Srpska, or whether she made her
18 inferences based on other people's comments.
19 A. I based my statement on information obtained from the radio
20 intercept operators who were working at the two sites that we've been
22 Q. Thank you. Did you check how often the frequencies changed,
23 based on the communications plan and the frequencies that the members of
24 the VRS used during combat around Zepa and Srebrenica?
25 A. No. As I stated, what I had heard from the radio intercept
1 operators was that the VRS did not changed frequencies very frequently
2 and, therefore, it made it easy for them to know which frequencies to pay
3 attention to.
4 Q. Thank you. You said no and then you continued. For the record,
5 I asked you whether you checked the plan of frequencies used in the Zepa
6 and Srebrenica operations, and you said yes.
7 Please, do you know what a frequency plan is? And while you were
8 conducting your investigations, did you have that to your hand? Did the
9 VRS provide you with a frequency plan while you were carrying out your
11 A. No. The VRS did not provide me with a frequency plan while we
12 were carrying out our investigations.
13 Q. Thank you. Did the BiH Army have decoding equipment with which
14 it could deal with the encrypted messages that they intercepted from the
15 VRS Army? Did they have such equipment at south and north sites?
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 First, this is an area that Mr. Tolimir already went over in
19 cross-examination, in terms of the equipment that the BiH Army had. And,
20 secondly, it seems to me plainly beyond the scope of the re-direct
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 [Prosecution counsel confer]
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, take your account that our decision
25 to grant your request to continue your cross-examination, it was an
1 exception, and, therefore, you should focus on the matters Mr. Vanderpuye
2 has raised during his re-direct. What you are now asking has nothing to
3 do with this document you have called up on the screen again. You should
4 really refer to -- to that area Mr. Vanderpuye was discussing with the
5 witness. He did not -- he didn't discuss --
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- technical equipment or decoding or encryption
8 of communication. Please focus on that area.
9 Carry on, please.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. In the
11 documents that Mr. Vanderpuye presented during his additional questions,
12 both Mr. Popovic and Mr. Beara indicate that encryption equipment was
13 used. That was part of the additional examination. And now, I would
14 like to present documents that were encrypted and here they are
15 represented as having been sent from the facilities that didn't have
16 encryption equipment. So when I display these documents, maybe the Court
17 will be clearer on what I'm driving at.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Microphone not activated]
19 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Could the witness just briefly say whether there were pieces of
21 equipment at northern or southern site which could decode encrypted
22 messages, yes or no. Thank you.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I believe the
25 Trial Chamber has already ruled on this particular application, and
1 this -- that's number one.
2 Number two is, the specific area that I discussed with the
3 witness had to do with radio relay and radio communications which I
4 repeated on a number of occasions in prefacing my questions to the
6 What he's talking about now are encrypted documents which are not
7 radio communications and they're not radio relay communications. So,
8 again, he is beyond the scope of the re-direct examination. Moreover,
9 the -- decrypting physical documents are not the subject of the intercept
10 material that we've been discussing, of which you've heard evidence, of
11 which Ms. Frease has testified about and a number of witnesses testified
12 about in this case. The scope of Ms. Frease's testimony is about audio
13 radio intercept communications. That's what it has been about. It's
14 always been about that. And that is what it was during course of
15 cross-examination and direct and re-direct examination, and so this is an
16 entirely new area that Mr. Tolimir failed to raise on cross-examination,
17 which did not see the light of day during the Prosecution's re-direct
18 examination, and shouldn't, at this point, given the exceptionality of
19 the Trial Chamber's decision and the specific parameters in which he has
20 been permitted to put questions to the witness, it shouldn't be allowed
21 to stand.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, the Chamber has indeed ruled on that
23 and you should focus on those areas which were part of the re-direct,
24 especially frequencies but not technical equipment. And your last
25 question put to the witness was not appropriate.
1 Do you have other questions?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. But this was
3 treated in all the three documents as protection measures, in Nikolic's
4 document, in Popovic's document, as well as in Beara documents that were
5 read for the witness. I can quote from the documents if you wish me to.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, there was a reason why we didn't
7 accept these documents and they were not received in evidence. And
8 Mr. Vanderpuye didn't ask questions related to these areas but only in
9 relation to the possibility of the BiH Army to intercept communication of
10 the VRS. Please focus on that.
11 The documents are not in evidence.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
13 The Prosecutor's claim was that I had claimed that the
14 communications of the VRS could not be intercepted. And in my additional
15 questions, I claim that under realistic circumstances, the Army of Bosnia
16 and Herzegovina
17 this witness could not have any materials to process. She only received
18 them in 2000 or 2001.
19 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Could the witness please now say whether I asked her about the
21 possibilities of interception or the realtime interception in which
22 certain information had to be obtained and conveyed to certain levels and
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you have dealt with that problem in
25 your cross-examination extensively. This is not a new question about
1 realtime intercepting and conveying messages to other institutions. That
2 is not a new part, and it's not related to the re-direct of the
3 Prosecution. And you are not giving evidence.
4 Please, if you have an additional question in relation to the
5 re-direct, you should put it to the witness. Otherwise, you should stop
6 your additional cross-examination.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I will
8 finish with this, and I have no further questions, since you will give it
9 a negative assessment anyway.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
11 Is there anything further, Mr. Vanderpuye?
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: No, Mr. President.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. Frease, you will be pleased to here that this
15 concludes your examination. The Chamber would like to thank you, that
16 you were able to stay with us for so many days. Thank you for your
17 answers and your knowledge you were able to provide. And now are you
18 free to return to your normal activities.
19 Thank you very much again.
20 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would like to make one correction on the
23 record. One moment. One document we received -- no, we didn't receive
24 but marked for identification was P999. It is recorded on page 19,
25 line 8, as P99.
1 With this correction, I think we must have our first break, and I
2 suppose the next witness will be ready for examination.
3 We have our break now and resume at 11.00.
4 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.
5 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The next witness should be brought in, please.
7 And I would like to mention that the requests of the Defence not
8 to sit on the 27th of September was granted. The hearing of that day was
9 cancelled because of a religious ceremony the accused wants to take part
10 in, and he receives family members [indiscernible].
11 [The witness entered court]
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Thank
13 you for your approval. Thank you.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning, sir. Would you please read aloud
15 the affirmation on the card that is shown to you now.
16 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
17 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Please sit down.
19 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, for the Prosecution, has some
21 questions for you.
22 Mr. Thayer.
23 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning to you and
24 to Your Honours. Good morning, General Tolimir, to the Defence. Good
25 morning, everyone.
1 WITNESS: JOSEPH KINGORI
2 Examination by Mr. Thayer:
3 Q. Good morning, sir.
4 A. Good morning, sir.
5 Q. Would please state your name for the record.
6 A. My name is Colonel Joseph Gichuhi Kingori, and if you mind I can
7 spell my last name. That is Kingori, K-i-n-g-o-r-i.
8 Q. And if you would please, the middle name as well. I think we
9 could use the spelling for that too.
10 A. I spell Gichuhi. G-i-c-h-u-h-i.
11 Q. Okay. Sir, do you recall testifying in the Popovic case over I
12 think it was five days in this courtroom, in fact, in December 2007 and
13 January of 2008?
14 A. Yes, Your Honour, I do.
15 Q. And did you have an opportunity to review that testimony
17 A. Yes, I had, Your Honour.
18 Q. And during the course of that review, were there four
19 typographical errors that you detected that you'd like to bring to the
20 Trial Chamber's attention?
21 A. Yes, Your Honour, there were four.
22 Q. Okay. And to save a little bit of time, let me just put them to
23 you and see if you agree with them.
24 For the record, the first is at transcript page 19195, where the
25 word "steal" should be steal -- I'm sorry, I beg your pardon. The word
1 "steal" should be "still had," and that's at line 6 of that page.
2 The second -- and I'd just ask to you confirm whether that's the
3 case, sir?
4 A. Yes, that's the case, sir.
5 Q. The next correction was at transcript page 19442, line 1, where
6 the word "exist" should be replaced with the word "exit?"
7 Do you recall that, sir?
8 A. Yes, Your Honour, I recall that.
9 Q. At 19250, line 15, the word "fuming" should be replaced with the
10 word "filming."
11 Is that correct, sir?
12 A. That's very correct.
13 Q. And then, finally, at page 19542 of the transcript, and this is
14 line 5, the word "protected" should be replaced with the word
16 Is that also a correction you wish to make, Colonel?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. Now bearing those four typographical corrections in mind, can you
19 attest that the testimony which you read accurately, that is, your
20 Popovic -- I beg your pardon, the testimony which you read recently, that
21 is your Popovic testimony, accurately reflects what you said in that
23 Can you attest that before this Trial Chamber?
24 A. Yes, Your Honour, I do.
25 Q. And, finally, can you attest before this Trial Chamber that, were
1 you asked the same questions today that you were asked back in the
2 Popovic trial, that your answers would be the same?
3 A. Your Honour, I do. Actually, all the questions, if asked the
4 same way, I would answer them the same way.
5 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, the Prosecution would tender P950,
6 the witness's testimony in the Popovic case, none of which is under seal.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
8 MR. THAYER: And before I read the 92 ter summary -- I beg your
9 pardon, the 92 bis with cross/92 ter summary, I would just tender P951 to
10 P997 with just a couple of notations with respect to a couple of the
11 exhibits. First --
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The documents P951 through P983 were used with
13 this witness and admitted into evidence with this witness in the Popovic
14 trial. Is that correct?
15 MR. THAYER: That is correct, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received with these P numbers.
17 And then the next, P984 through P991 have been admitted through
18 other witnesses in the Popovic case.
19 MR. THAYER: That's correct, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: They will be received as well with the given
21 numbers. But I have to mention that P624 was only marked for
23 MR. THAYER: That's correct, Mr. President. That's actually one
24 of the items I wanted to note to the Trial Chamber. That --
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We will -- therefore, we will deal with that
1 later, as well as with the numbers P992 through P997.
2 MR. THAYER: Yes. The first thing I wanted to note,
3 Mr. President, is that and I will start with that last category first, if
4 I could just address those. Those documents, as the heading indicates,
5 were used, that means they were shown to Colonel Kingori in the prior
6 case but not admitted. We are offering these to the Trial Chamber simply
7 to assist the Trial Chamber in makes sense of the transcript. There were
8 some portions that were read from these documents. The -- for example,
9 the last item, also P997, were video stills which were shown by one of
10 the Defence teams to the Trial Chamber that they made on their own, but
11 were not eventually tendered by that Defence team. But to help this
12 Trial Chamber make sense of the record, we thought it would be a good
13 idea simply to add those as well.
14 None of these documents I intend to show the Colonel during the
15 course of his -- what I hope to be a brief examination-in-chief this
16 morning, they're simply to assist the Trial Chamber in makes sense of the
17 Popovic record as the Trial Chamber reviews it, and that was the thinking
18 behind adding those to the list.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We will receive P992. This is the OTP's
20 statement of Witness Kingori in the -- to the Prosecution, and we will
21 deal with your motion in respect of the other numbers later.
22 But I have to indicate that there are some documents without a
23 translation yet. These are P952, P953, P963, P964, P987. They will be
24 marked for identification, pending translation.
25 And there are two others. These are P995, P996. They relate to
1 a later decision of the Chamber.
2 Please go ahead, Mr. Thayer.
3 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. I just wanted to point
4 out two other issues with respect to our tender list. The first is, as
5 we have noted for the Trial Chamber, there are a number of exhibits that
6 were not part of the original 92 bis package, and again you've heard me
7 hold fort on there before, those additional documents were added as a
8 result of this ongoing process whereby we review the prior transcript and
9 try to pick up any documents that either were actually introduced but
10 somehow didn't make it into the 92 bis package, shown and admitted or
11 shown but not admitted. So that explains the exhibits with the asterisk
12 and some additional documents which were not in the 92 bis package.
13 That's the first thing I wanted to point out for the Trial Chamber.
14 The second is, as the Trial Chamber is, I'm sure, aware, those
15 documents as well as some other documents which were in the 92 bis
16 package, weren't included on the -- on the 65 ter list of exhibits that
17 we filed. As the Chamber is aware, our practice going into this case,
18 the practice in the -- in the prior cases, was not to make all those
19 packages part of the 65 ter filings. Those exhibits all tended to come
20 in at the time of the witness's testimony, and that explains why those
21 documents don't have 65 ter numbers, and I know the Trial Chamber has
22 directed us to apply to add those exhibits to the 65 ter list of
24 I think a common sense way to -- and a time-saving way, I hope,
25 to approach that is, if there are no objections to the exhibits on the
1 Prosecution's tender list, and typically I wouldn't expect any since
2 they're all solely based on the prior transcript, unless we have
3 something brand new that we want to show the witness, and -- and here we
4 do have some new video that we want to show the witness, but that's not
5 what I'm talking about here. I think if, in the absence of a -- an
6 objection to the exhibits, I think -- I would submit, respectively an
7 oral motion at this point to add those to the list would do the trick.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What -- would you please tell us which -- to
9 which documents you are referring.
10 MR. THAYER: I can. I can read them.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: How many are they?
12 MR. THAYER: They are numerous, Mr. President. We can put them
13 in an e-mail and transmit them to the Trial Chamber or I can just recite
14 them now. I do have them marked.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm -- I only saw four documents, P992, P995,
16 996, and 997, as not included in the 65 ter exhibit list.
17 MR. THAYER: Well, that -- that's good news to us. We are
18 working off of a magic number of --
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, oh, sorry. Yes, I see there are -- no, I was
21 MR. THAYER: Okay.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But they are indicated with a star in the -- in
23 the memorandum of the Registry of the 13th -- or 10th September.
24 MR. THAYER: The documents indicated with the asterisk,
25 Mr. President, are solely those that were not included in the 92 bis
1 package. However, in addition to those, there are others that also do
2 not have the 65 ter number. The ones that we've added in addition to --
3 as I said, very many of the 92 bis package documents don't have 65 ter
4 numbers because our prior practice when we filed the motion was not to
5 throw all those onto the 65 ter list in advance of -- of the decision.
6 So there are many documents in addition to those with asterisks
7 which don't have 65 ter numbers.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: To save court time it would be better to send an
9 e-mail, and I would like to ask the Defence, are there any objections?
10 Are you aware of the numbers?
11 What is your position? Mr. Gajic.
12 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we don't have any
13 objections to the Prosecutor's request. However, I would like to point
14 to a -- something that I don't see as a problem but it is a situation
15 with a piece of evidence that was marked for identification, P987, and it
16 is identical to D21. We're talking about the agreement on
17 demilitarisation of Srebrenica and Zepa.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think this is a different matter, if I'm not
19 mistaken. But we now have it on the record, and we will check that.
20 Please carry on, Mr. Thayer.
21 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. I just wanted to note two
22 things further for the Trial Chamber.
23 The first is with respect to P624, which, Mr. President, you
24 identified a few moments ago. The -- just for the record, the relevant
25 page from that document that was shown to Colonel Kingori the prior trial
1 is page 77 in e-court. That is page 61 of the hard copy document itself,
2 but it's page 77 in e-court. Again, I don't intend to show that still to
3 Colonel Kingori today, but that was the page from that document that was
4 shown to him. So we are not tendering that entire document at this time.
5 We will have Investigator Erin Gallagher, hopefully in the not too
6 distant future testify about how that book was put together, the basis
7 for the identifications in the book and so forth. So I just wanted to
8 alert the Trial Chamber to that issue.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, why do you tender this document with
10 the present witness if you're not showing it to him?
11 MR. THAYER: You're correct, Mr. President. We're -- rather than
12 chopping up this document into its 150 different pages and giving each
13 one a separate P number, what we would like to do did MFI it, as we have,
14 for example, with the trial video, and as different parts of it are
15 authenticated as we have Investigator Gallagher come in and testify about
16 it, at a later date we will formally tender the whole thing into
17 evidence. And that's what I wanted to point out to the Trial Chamber, is
18 we're not tendering the whole document. For now we're just tendering
19 that page and identifying it by its page number in e-court for the future
20 reference of the Trial Chamber so that it is part of this witness's
21 package and it doesn't come into just as a slice because that whole
22 document that it is a part of, we hope will come in later in the trial.
23 So if we could MFI it for the time being, that -- that would be
24 how we would like to proceed with that document. So, unfortunately, we
25 didn't indicate that in so many words, and I apologise for that, if that
1 created unnecessary number for Registry.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But then we will have two MFI numbers, one for
3 the whole book and one for this page. Is that your intention?
4 MR. THAYER: Well, no. We don't even -- Mr. President, we don't
5 even need to MFI the page. We can just MFI the document --
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It is MFI'd.
7 MR. THAYER: Okay, then --
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: P624, MFI.
9 MR. THAYER: Okay. Then we're fine.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Okay. Then carry on, Mr. Thayer.
11 MR. THAYER: Okay, thank you. And if I may, I would like to
12 proceed with the summary.
13 The witness is a retired Kenyan Air Force lieutenant-colonel. He
14 was deployed as a United Nations Military Observer, UNMO, to the
15 Srebrenica enclave in April 1995. As an UNMO, his responsibilities
16 included investigating shelling incidents and other violations of the
17 cease-fire agreement; meeting with representatives of the warring
18 parties; and assisting UNHCR food delivers and monitoring the food
19 situation. Although the UNMOs were part of UNPROFOR, they were not armed
20 and had their own chain of command, so that as a member of the Srebrenica
21 UNMO team, he reported to the UNMO headquarters located at UNPROFOR
22 Sector North-East in Tuzla
23 headquarters in Zagreb
24 reports, sitreps, to UNMO headquarters in Sector North-East. Owing to
25 VRS restrictions on leave, only three UNMOs were in the enclave in
1 July 1995.
2 During his deployment, he investigated numerous complaints from
3 Muslim civilians who had been shelled by VRS forces. On the other side,
4 complaints by the VRS about Muslim military activities were made to him,
5 but relatively rarely, and no reports of attacks by Muslims causing heavy
6 casualties among Serb civilians reached the UNMOs in Srebrenica.
7 In meetings with the witness, VRS officers made it clear to him
8 that they wanted the entire Muslim population of Srebrenica to leave
9 because they believed that it belonged to the Serbs.
10 The witness reviewed and discussed numerous situation reports he
11 and his colleagues wrote and transmitted during the VRS attack on
12 Srebrenica from 6 through 11 July 1995
13 the civilian population and its aftermath. The reports describe, among
14 other things, the shelling of civilian targets and densely populated
15 areas; civilians killed and wounded by the VRS shelling; and VRS threats
16 to wipe out both the Muslims and peacekeepers if NATO air-strikes
18 The witness personally participated in and observed many of the
19 events described in these reports, such as counting the shells hitting
20 Srebrenica; transporting civilians wounded by the shelling to the
21 hospital; and seeing the separation of the Muslim men and boys from their
22 families, their detention in the white house and their removal on buses
23 which were separate from the convoys transporting the women and children.
24 On 13 July, he drove to the hospital in Srebrenica town with an
25 MSF representative to see if any patients remained in the hospital there.
1 En route he saw the shell damage to the Bravo Company compound and
2 blood-stains. He also observed the fresh damage to the town caused by
3 the shelling. When they arrived in the hospital, they found six elderly
4 Muslim women in the hospital and psychiatric ward. VRS soldiers told
5 them to take the patients away or the soldiers would kill them.
6 Following the departure of the civilian population, one of the
7 major issues was what to do with the wounded and civilian employees of
8 DutchBat and the NGOs. The witness assisted in efforts to transport a
9 group of wounded from Potocari to Bratunac. He and the UNMOs later left
10 the enclave with the rest of the DutchBat personnel.
11 Mr. President, I just have a few additional questions for the
13 Q. Sir, can you tell Trial Chamber, just briefly, what you're doing
15 A. Sir, currently I'm working in Nairobi as the deputy director of
16 the National Disaster Operations Centre. That was after I retired three
17 years ago and I was seconded there by the military.
18 Q. Okay. Now, the Trial Chamber has before it a pretty big packet
19 of your sitreps, situation reports, as we call them. What I'd like to do
20 is just take a quick moment and look at just one of them and ask you some
21 questions to help explain how set they're up and certain of the
22 abbreviations and so forth.
23 MR. THAYER: So if we could see P968 for a moment, please.
24 Q. And do you see a document in front of you, sir?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what this is.
2 A. This is an update to a situation report from UNMO headquarter BH
3 command in Sarajevo
4 headquarter BH Sector North-East. If you can look at the DTG, that is
5 the date time group, this was on 8th at 1430 hours in July 1995.
6 Q. And that B that follows the time of 1430, what does that stand
7 for, Colonel?
8 A. B, that is Bravo, is a time zone and we have a several time zones
9 in the world. We have Zulu, Bravo, and all the others.
10 Q. Okay. And you said -- you referred to BH Sector North-East.
11 That was based in Tuzla
12 what we are talking about?
13 A. Correct, sir.
14 Q. Now, if we look in paragraph 1, there's a reference to the
15 BiH Chief of Staff, and I think that's abbreviated as COS. Do you see
16 where it says:
17 "The BiH COS has informed UNMOs that over 100 shells have
19 That's almost in the middle of paragraph 1.
20 A. Let me look for it.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we move a little bit to the right side so
22 that we see the first letter of each line.
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, can I see it.
24 MR. THAYER:
25 Q. Okay. So this report contains this line that the BiH Chief of
1 Staff has informed UNMOs that over 100 shells have landed in the general
2 area of Bleceva [phoen] and Cimzic [phoen]. But this is," and then's an
3 abbreviation and this is what I wanted to ask you about. It is written
4 here: "But this is NCBU."
5 What does that mean, sir?
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It should be enlarged a little bit more, as we
7 had it before.
8 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, NCBU --
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
10 THE WITNESS: NCBU, to us, meant "not confirmed by UNMOs." In
11 this case, what we mean is, as military observers, we were sending
12 reports indicating what we have observed, but something that comes to us
13 from another source, we had to indicate to the headquarter that we
14 personally have not confirmed it. But in the process would go out there
15 and confirm and then report.
16 MR. THAYER:
17 Q. Okay. And if we go to the very end of the paragraph, it says
18 "Note," and this is at the end of paragraph 1:
19 "Note, use this as our DSR if we do not send it on time, as we
20 are now heading for the bunker."
21 Can you just tell us, please, what DSR means?
22 A. Your Honour, DSR means "daily situation report." This is what we
23 sent, you know, sending every day in the evening, but in the course of
24 the day, if something arises, we used to send updates like this one. But
25 due to constraints, we had to indicate here that if we are unable to send
1 a daily situation report, they can use the update that we have given as
2 the normal DSR.
3 Q. Okay. And if we look at the very bottom of the document, at the
4 sign-off it says:
5 "Regards Team Srebrenica (through HQ Sector North-East)."
6 Can you just explain what that means, Colonel?
7 A. You can see up there, to --
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Previous page in B/C/S.
9 THE WITNESS: If can you see the indication where we have a "To,"
10 is to UNMO headquarter BH Command Sarajevo and UNMO headquarter Zagreb
11 That is where the destination of this update was. But because of
12 communication problems, sometimes you cannot get through immediately, so
13 we had to go through headquarters Sector North-East so that they can
14 retransmit the same to these other destinations.
15 Q. I think we're done with that exhibit. Thank you very much.
16 I wanted to ask you about one topic you testified about, and this
17 was at transcript page 19441 to 19442 of your Popovic testimony, just for
18 the record. There, you testified about the VRS shelling of the
19 Srebrenica town, and you used the word "crushed" to describe how they
20 were crushed into a particular area.
21 Can you just describe for the Trial Chamber in a little bit more
22 detail what you meant by that. What were you explaining in Popovic when
23 you talked about the civilians being crushed into an area?
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: For the record, this is P950.
25 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, what I mean -- what I meant by this
1 was that these people were being forced into a certain direction, in that
2 the shelling was sort of patterned to force the people to flee towards a
3 certain direction, and what this means is that they had no choice other
4 than to go directly to the direction that they're being forced to. There
5 were no alternatives. So they had to go directly towards -- those from
6 [indiscernible] and other outlying villages had to go towards Srebrenica
7 itself. And after that, they were forced now to flee towards a safer
8 place which was the DutchBat compound. So this what I meant by
9 "crushing." They were being forced into one direction.
10 Q. And when you say "DutchBat compound," sir, where was that
11 compound located?
12 A. Your Honour, DutchBat compound, this is the compound that
13 belonged to the battalion of Netherlands
14 Q. Okay. Just for the next couple of minutes, I'd like to show you
15 some very brief video-clips and just ask you a couple of questions about
16 them. This is from the Popovic trial video P991. And it is subtitled,
17 so the interpreters can take a break and we can just watch the movie for
18 a couple of minutes.
19 MR. THAYER: For the record, we're starting at 1 hour,
20 58 minutes, and 7 seconds.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 MR. THAYER:
23 Q. Sir, we've stopped the video at 1 hour, 58 minutes, 34.4 seconds.
24 First of all, can you identify yourself anywhere in this video. And if
25 you could just briefly explain the location, and if you recall the date.
1 A. Sir, I can see myself behind there somewhere, but some of these
2 person look slightly younger than I am now. I'm the one behind there.
3 And this happened outside the DutchBat compound but slightly towards
4 Srebrenica village where the -- the IDPs or refugees, whatever you may
5 call them, were located.
6 I hope you still remember that we had two areas where these
7 refugees were located. One of them was inside the DutchBat compound,
8 both inside the warehouses and outside, and also in a factory located
9 just about 3, 3 or 400 metres from the DutchBat compound as you go
10 towards Srebrenica town.
11 So as can you see, here we have General Ratko Mladic and other
12 officers from the BSA side, and DutchBat officers. We were trying to
13 discuss with them on what should be done now that the situation has
14 really changed. But it was very difficult because of a communication
15 barrier, and for me, I had to look for officers who could be able to
17 Q. Okay. And, again, just for the record, can you describe the
18 colour of the vest that you're wearing?
19 A. The colour, Your Honours, as can you see, is blue, and the helmet
20 is also blue.
21 Q. Okay. Let's look at another clip very briefly, please.
22 MR. THAYER: For the record, we're at 2 hours, 27 minutes of the
24 [Video-clip played]
25 MR. THAYER: We've stopped at 2 hours, 28 minutes, 45.7 seconds.
1 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber, Colonel, please, what was going
2 on in this footage that we just saw. What are you talking, and what
3 brought you to this location, and who are you speaking to?
4 A. Your Honour, this was one of the most trying moments in my stay
5 in Srebrenica, in that we had no water and we had to request water to be
6 brought, and luckily, the BSA agreed to bring water for the people.
7 After that, I had to look for people who could be able to speak English
8 because I had really noticed that men had been separated from women and
9 children by the BSA and had been taken to -- had been taken to one of the
10 houses, specifically a white house, where, according to my assessment,
11 they were overcrowded. They were sitting on each other. There was no
12 proper aeration, no proper sanitation facilities. And they were huddled
13 there, not being assisted, you know, in anything.
14 So this had really annoyed me a bit, in that I had to look for
15 BSA officer who could be able to go there and assist. Unfortunately,
16 most of them could not speak English and I had to identify some who could
17 be able to convey the message to their senior officers. That is,
18 including the colonels who were there. We're talking about Colonel
19 Vukovic, Colonel Drcic, General Ratko Mladic, and all those senior
20 officers who there were, so that could be done about the civilian --
21 the -- the men who were huddled in one particular house.
22 Q. Okay. Let's look at one more clip.
23 MR. THAYER: We are at 2 hours, 29 minutes, 20 seconds of the
25 [Video-clip played]
1 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I don't know whether you will be would
2 be able to go back a bit. If you are able to go back a bit, where you
3 have started, because there's some items which are located somewhere.
4 And if you allow me, I can talk about it.
5 MR. THAYER:
6 Q. Okay. Can we --
7 A. Yes, there.
8 Q. Okay.
9 MR. THAYER: Again we're back at 2 hours, 29 minutes and
10 22.9 seconds.
11 Q. Go ahead, Colonel.
12 A. Your Honour, when the men were being separated from the women and
13 children, they were taken to a white house, as I have said earlier. They
14 were forced to leave their belongings on the way, somewhere on the road
15 before they entered the house, and these are some of their belongings.
16 Here we are talking about -- they had luggage that they had or the
17 documents, including identification cards, wallets, that includes even
18 money. Anything that they had, they had to drop it here before entering
19 the -- that white house. So these are some of the belongings that
20 belonged to those people.
21 Q. And you mentioned the documents that were among the items that
22 the men who were in the white house were forced to leave there in the
23 pile. Did that cause any concern for you, Colonel, that documents were
24 being left in the pile, that these men were forced to leave their
25 documents outside this white house before going in?
1 A. Your Honour, to me it meant a lot, and I mentioned it somewhere
2 during cross-examination here sometime back. And it meant that these
3 people, whatever is going to be done to them, it would be very difficult
4 to identify them later, because all the identification documents have
5 been left somewhere. And if really you don't have any bad intention, you
6 don't take documentation from people. You let them have their
7 documentation so that you can easily identify who this particular person
8 is. But this was an indicator that something bad was going to happen,
9 and we mentioned in our reports to headquarters.
10 MR. THAYER: Okay. Let's just continue the video for another
11 minute or so, please.
12 [Video-clip played]
13 MR. THAYER: And we've stopped at 2 hours, 30 minutes.
14 Q. Colonel, please, tell the Trial Chamber what's going on here.
15 A. Your Honour, here, we are discussing with BSA officers. The one
16 in a blue flak-jacket is one of those I had identified that could speak
17 English and he was assisting us in translation, because I was talking to
18 that senior officer next there and I had to be -- let them know that what
19 they have done is really wrong. This is in terms of putting people in
20 one place, removing their documentation, and also not being seen to mind
21 about their welfare, as earlier discussed.
22 Q. Okay. And for the record, this still has four men in it, two of
23 whom are wearing blue berets. The senior officer that you were just
24 referring to, is that the third individual from the left who is wearing a
25 white T-shirt underneath his camouflage uniform? Is that who you are
1 talking about, sir?
2 A. Your Honour, it's true. This is the one who is third from the
3 left, my left, and wearing a white T-shirt inside. The other officer
4 that can you see on the extreme left is also a BSA officer but wearing a
5 blue UN beret.
6 Q. Okay. Now, let's continue rolling the video, please.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I ask a question.
8 Did I understand you correctly, this is in -- an officer of the
9 BSA wearing a blue beret of the UN forces. Is that true? And what might
10 be the explanation for that.
11 THE WITNESS: That's true, sir. Upon -- just before the fall of
12 the enclave, they had surrounded several observation posts, in short,
13 OPs, which were being manned by the Dutch battalion and they had taken
14 everything, including their clothing. Some even came back naked. They
15 also took even their armoured personnel carriers, and they wanted to sort
16 of disguise like they are UN personnel, whereas they were not, so that
17 they could be able to access without being known to be BSA officers. So
18 this to us was -- at least we had seen that before.
19 And also the one who was to the right, the one who could speak
20 English, you can see he has a blue flak-jacket and this was actually
21 UN property stolen by these people.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Another question by Judge Mindua.
23 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, just to follow up on the
24 question from the Presiding Judge. The blue beret from the UN that is
25 wearing the officer [as interpreted] in question, I was wondering whether
1 it was bearing the insignia of the UN or whether it was just blue.
2 THE WITNESS: I can't remember whether it had that insignia. But
3 in most cases they were not removing it. They were wearing it with the
4 insignia on.
5 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
7 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President. If we could continue
8 rolling the video for a moment, please.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 MR. THAYER: We've stopped at 2 hours, 30 minutes, 46.5 seconds.
11 Q. Colonel, can you tell the Trial Chamber what's depicted in this
12 video still. We see a balcony of a building with a number of men seated
13 close together on it.
14 A. Your Honour, this is the balcony of the house -- of the
15 white house that I talked about. This is where the -- the men who were
16 separated from their families were kept. Some were up there in the
17 balcony, others were down there in the ground floor. And these were very
18 many men in a very small area. And that is why I really complained about
19 it. There were very many -- as can you see, there's no breathing space.
20 And these ones are better because at least they are in the upper floor.
21 But the ones who are down there were really suffering.
22 Q. Okay. We're done with this exhibit.
23 Just a couple of more questions for you, Colonel.
24 I want to show you a very brief excerpt from some video footage
25 that we did not have in our possession at the time you testified in 2007
1 and 2008. This has, I believe, already been shown to the Trial Chamber,
2 but I just want to show some excerpts from it and see if you can identify
3 yourself and explain what's going on.
4 MR. THAYER: And this is from V000-8122, which is P236, P00236.
5 We're starting at 2 hours, 18 minutes, 1.5 seconds of this
7 [Video-clip played]
8 MR. THAYER:
9 Q. Sir, we've stopped at 2 hours, 18 minutes and 21 seconds. Please
10 tell the Trial Chamber what's going on here. If you can remember what
11 day this was. And do you see yourself anywhere in this frame. If you
12 do, can you just describe what you're wearing?
13 A. Your Honour, I can see myself there in a blue flak-jacket and a
14 blue helmet, and picking up bread from the lorry that had brought it.
15 What we're doing here is to distribute the bread which had been
16 brought by the BSA to the IDPs who were huddled outside the factory that
17 I alluded to earlier and who were very hungry and very thirsty at that
18 particular moment. So the bread came straight away, after the water had
19 been brought, and we decided to assist in distributing the same.
20 Q. Okay. Thank you, we're done with this exhibit.
21 Now, finally, sir, I just wanted to ask you a couple of questions
22 that didn't come up in the Popovic trial. It's in your OTP statement,
23 and you do talk about the general topic in the Popovic case. At
24 transcript page, for the record, 19279, you testified that after the
25 civilian population had been removed from Potocari one of the major
1 issues became what to do with the sick, injured and wounded who remained
2 on the Potocari UN compound, as well as what to do with the Muslim
3 civilian employees of DutchBat and the other NGOs. And you then
4 testified at transcript page 19824 to 19825 about efforts that were made
5 to transport those sick and wounded from Potocari to Bratunac.
6 In connection with those efforts, do you recall any lists being
7 made, Colonel?
8 A. Your Honour, there was a list that was made, but this was to
9 enable us know who the injured and the sick were. The list was made by
10 both us and the MSF, mainly by the MSF, but we did it together because
11 they were the ones who knew those who were sick and what was ailing them.
12 If it was injuries, they could indicate what was actually wrong with
13 them. But we did it together.
14 So this was to enable us evacuate the same people, that is, the
15 injured and the sick, so that they can get treatment, you know, better
16 treatment so that can get cured. The other reason was to make sure that
17 at least we know who is where and especially concerning the -- the
18 injured. We had Mr. -- Major Nikolic going around and checking those who
19 are in the hospital -- in the DutchBat compound, whether they -- they
20 were part of the -- the soldiers -- the Muslim soldiers, and so we wanted
21 to make sure that at least we have a proper list that we can use.
22 Now, on the interpreters. I thought you asked about the
23 interpreters also.
24 Q. Yes. Were there any lists that you recall being made with
25 respect to the interpreters and the other civilian employees of the NGOs?
1 A. Your Honour, we had to make a list of interpreters and the other
2 employees of NGOs because we wanted to make sure that they get a good
3 exit out of the enclave in a safe way. We wanted to make sure that we
4 were given permission to leave the enclave together so that their lives
5 are not endangered. If they could have been left in the enclave,
6 definitely something bad could have happened to them, and so we actually
7 wanted to be evacuated together with all of them.
8 Q. And with respect to the list of the wounded, you referred to
9 Major Nikolic going around and checking those people, can you first just
10 tell the Trial Chamber who -- who Major Nikolic was, to your knowledge?
11 A. Your Honour, it was Major Nikolic was the main link between us
12 and the BSA. To us, he was a local commander in that particular area,
13 and he could meet us once a week, or when situation required that we
14 meet. We could request to meet him and he could also request to meet us
15 in case of anything. This was being done through an interpreter who was
16 called Mr. Peter and who had our own UN communication equipment. He had
17 a radio that we could be able to call him through and convey a message to
18 Major Nikolic and vice versa. Some of these meetings were to convey some
19 messages and especially if something had happened from the BSA side that
20 Major Nikolic or the BSA wanted the Muslims to know about. Or, serious
21 meetings like when Colonel Vukovic wanted to meet us, he conveyed the
22 message through Major Nikolic to us.
23 Q. Okay. And you mentioned safety concerns for the interpreters,
24 for example, and that was one of the reasons why you made the list of the
25 interpreters. To what degree did similar concerns play in the decision
1 to make the list of the wounded, which included possible military-aged
2 men? In other words, did you have the same concerns for some of the
3 wounded that you listed that you had for the interpreters?
4 A. Your Honour, even in war, the injured are given a human face.
5 They're supposed to be treated. They're supposed to face the same
6 situation as the friendly forces, not as enemy forces. Because they are
7 no longer active in war. That is, even if they were fighting soldiers,
8 they are no longer active.
9 So according to the Geneva Convention, they're supposed to be
10 treated in a humane way. And that is what caused concern to us, in that
11 even if they are injured, they've got to be evacuated and treated in a
12 good hospital so that they can recover. So that is why we had to make
13 that list, to make sure that those are also evacuated from that
14 particular enclave.
15 Q. And, to your knowledge, did everybody that were -- who was on
16 these two lists make it out safely in the end?
17 A. Your Honours, as far as I'm concerned, I think those who were in
18 that list made it safely outside the enclave.
19 Q. Okay.
20 MR. THAYER: The last thing I'd like to do is -- and this is with
21 the Court's permission. There are two documents which I identified after
22 we had issued the list that hadn't been used in the Popovic case. I
23 notified the Defence that if there were -- there was no objection and the
24 foundation were laid by Colonel Kingori, that we might seek to tender
25 these with the Court's permission. They do not have 65 ter numbers.
1 They were not part of the 92 bis package. They were, however, part of
2 the original OTP witness statement that everybody's had for years. They
3 were part of the same package that included all the sitreps, most of
4 which the Trial Chamber has before it.
5 What I'd like to do is be able to show these to the witness just
6 to lay the foundation for their authenticity, and if the Court requires,
7 I can make it part of a formal motion to add these two documents to the
8 65 ter list later, or if there's no objection and the Court deems it
9 appropriate, we can do that now and simply add them now. I think they're
10 uploaded. We have temporary -- or 65 ter numbers assigned to them and
11 it's just a matter of showing them to the witness so he can identify them
12 for the record.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic, are there any objections?
14 [Defence counsel confer]
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 We don't know which other document it concerns because we don't
17 have that document. Maybe the Prosecution can indicate the number.
18 It's difficult to proceed with cross-examination today without
19 knowing which document is in question. We know about one document; we
20 don't know about the other.
21 MR. THAYER: I --
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, the Chamber is in the same position
23 as you. Perhaps, Mr. Thayer, you can be a little bit more precise.
24 MR. THAYER: Yes, Mr. President. I made sure that the Defence
25 had hard copies of the documents. Mr. Gajic has them. I've identified
1 them by ERN, and location and page, both in English and B/C/S for the
2 Defence --
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You might just give an indication of which
4 documents you are referring.
5 MR. THAYER: We're referring to 65 ter 6540 and 6541. There
6 might be some confusion. I think the packet I gave to the Defence may
7 have been stapled as one document and that might be the confusion as to
8 whether there's one document or two documents. But it is in fact two
9 lists that were part of the witness's OTP statement. So we can put them
10 up on the ELMO. They are uploaded.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.
12 MR. THAYER: So we'll see that -- if Mr. Gajic is looking at the
13 packet I gave him, the first document ends at 00527591, and then the
14 other one picks up at 7592.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic, I saw you were on your feet.
16 Mr. Tolimir.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 All the documents are put together in one file which bears one
19 number, and we will look into it before cross-examination.
20 But we would appreciate it if the Prosecution could separate
21 these documents because they are, by their nature, separate.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: They are uploaded in e-court, both of them,
23 Mr. Thayer?
24 MR. THAYER: They, are, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Then we would like to see them. You can clarify
1 if it's one document or two.
2 MR. THAYER: Certainly. May we see 6540, please.
3 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm told, are they released to the Chamber -- to
5 the Registry?
6 MR. THAYER: We thought so, Mr. President. If -- I'm -- I'm
7 getting confirmation that they are. If they are slow to come up or if
8 they are in the ether somewhere, I've got hard copies we can place on the
9 ELMO without a problem.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now we have it on the screen.
11 MR. THAYER: Oh, okay. All right.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And on both sides, we see the same document.
13 Perhaps we need only one. Could be enlarged a bit. Thank you very much.
14 Please carry on.
15 MR. THAYER: Okay.
16 Q. Sir, do you recognise what this document is before you?
17 A. Sir, this is the document that I talked about, that is, the list
18 of the injured who were in DutchBat compound.
19 Q. Okay. And in the upper left-hand corner, we see somebody has
20 written "Attachment number 20, page 1." That was done by Mr. Ruez, the
21 OTP investigator who interviewed you in 1997; is that correct?
22 A. That's correct, sir.
23 Q. And over on the right there appears to be a signature. Do you
24 know whose signature that is?
25 A. Definitely sir. This is my signature.
1 Q. Okay.
2 MR. THAYER: And if we can go to page 8 of this document, please.
3 And just scroll down a little bit.
4 Q. We can see there were 60 names typed and then there are three
5 additional names that were added by hand. Who added those names, sir?
6 A. Sir, I'm the one who added these names for these three other
7 people. And, as you can see, what I've written down there, they are
8 family members of some of the wounded persons that would have wanted to
9 be evacuated together with the injured and the sick from the enclave.
10 This is my handwriting.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: One observation, we see a typed list with
12 60 names. Then the number 61 is missing, and then we have three numbers,
13 handwritten 61 -- sorry, 62, 63 and 64.
14 Please carry on.
15 MR. THAYER: Okay. May we see 65 ter 6541, please.
16 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what this is, sir.
17 A. Your Honour, this is the list of interpreters, that is, both for
18 DutchBat and slightly there you can see those for UNMO interpreters, and
19 below that, the refugee representatives in the enclave. So this is the
20 list that we prepared together with the earlier list so that we could get
21 a safe exit from the enclave.
22 Q. All right.
23 MR. THAYER: And if we can just scroll to the top of the
24 document, please.
25 Q. We can see in the upper left-hand corner what's written:
1 "Attachment number 21, page 1." And, again, on the right-hand corner,
2 can you identify the signature there?
3 A. Your Honour, this is, too, my signature.
4 Q. Okay.
5 MR. THAYER: And if we can scroll down to the bottom of the
7 Q. In addition to the refugee representatives you just spoke about
8 there's also somebody who is listed as an MSF female personnel. And if
9 we can go to the next page, we can also see individuals who were being
10 identified from UNHCR and again from MSF.
11 Sir, did Mr. Ruez have these documents already when he met with
12 you, or did you have them with you and you gave them to him during your
14 A. Your Honour, these are documents that I had with myself.
15 Q. In other words, you brought them out of the enclave; is that
17 A. Yes. That is exactly what I'm saying, that these are some of the
18 documents I managed to get out of the enclave with and I went with them
19 to Kenya
20 initially part of the UN system.
21 Q. Okay.
22 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, the Prosecution would tender 65 ter
23 numbers 6540, 6541, unless there's an objection, or if the Defence needs
24 some time to review, I certainly will understand the -- a delay in doing
25 that. But I would tender them at this point.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE. If I understood you correctly, you are moving for
2 addition to the 65 ter exhibit list.
3 MR. THAYER: That is correct, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
5 Mr. Tolimir, what is your position?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
7 We do not object, but this should be admitted as one document,
8 not two. We don't want to speculate. We never have, and we never will,
9 until the end of these proceedings.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I understand the Prosecution that these are in
11 fact two documents. That's two different 65 ter numbers. And after
12 having heard the explanation of the witness, in fact, they are two
13 different lists. One containing 63 names, and the other without any
14 numbering of the names.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, the -- your motion will be granted.
17 The documents will be entered to the 65 ter exhibit list and both
18 documents will be received as exhibits. But, let me tell you the opinion
19 of the Trial Chamber. It's really a last-moment application, and we
20 would be very glad if you could deal with these problems a little earlier
21 for the sake of the proceedings of the Chamber and for the preparation of
22 the Defence.
23 MR. THAYER: It is, indeed, Mr. President. I apologise again. I
24 only realised this yesterday, unfortunately. And as soon as I did, I
25 communicated all this information to the Defence. And again, I
1 apologise, and I thank the Court for its flexibility.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Microphone not activated]
3 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 6540 will be Exhibit P1002. 65 ter 6541
4 will be Exhibit P1003.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please carry on.
6 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I have no further questions. And I
7 thank the witness.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
9 Mr. Tolimir, your cross-examination, please.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:
12 Q. [Interpretation] I would like to welcome the witness and I wish
13 him a pleasant stay in our midst, and I would invite him to answer
14 according to his conscience.
15 Please, sir, Mr. Kingori, could you please tell us, before you
16 arrived in the territory of Yugoslavia
17 training, special education, to teach you about the history of the
18 conflict in the area where you were being sent as a -- an observer?
19 Thank you.
20 A. Sir, maybe before I answer the question I will request that I see
21 what is being said on the -- because I cannot see it now.
22 MR. THAYER: If we could have some help from the court assistants
23 with the LiveNote. I think that's the problem.
24 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, thank you very much. And I would like
25 to let you know that before any military observer or military officers
1 who form the battalions to work for the UN leave their countries, it's
2 the normal practice that they are taught issues to do with the country
3 they're going to; the historical background of the conflict, the -- the
4 ethnic groups who are in that area; their differences, if any; the socio-
5 cultural and other economic issues; and also the political situation in
6 that particular area. So in this case there was no exception, and we
7 were taught that in Nairobi
8 Secondly, as we arrived in Zagreb, we were briefed by the
9 UNPROFOR officers on where we were going to be taken to, that is, where
10 we would be posted, and the situation in those particular areas. We were
11 also briefed on the historical background of the war itself, from when it
12 started and even going back much, much earlier, into -- during the reign
13 of the late Josip Broz Tito, coming all the way up to the Cold War
14 period, and heading towards the period after the death of Josip Broz Tito
15 and immediately thereafter, how the governments were formed and all that.
16 So all that information we had. And every time you are taken to a
17 different sector, you are also reminded about what is inherent in that
18 particular sector. Like, my first posting was in Sector East, that was
19 in Erdut. That is where I got posted for the first six months. And I
20 was briefed about that particular area and the situation, because
21 different areas had different problems. The issues which were inherent
22 in Erdut and the surrounding areas, all the way up to Vukovar, are
23 different from what we had in the Bosnian side.
24 So upon my finishing the -- my stay in Team Erdut, I was given a
25 proper brief. First of all, we had to get a break of about six days, and
1 then you are briefed on your next posting and the area you are going to,
2 and what is inherent in that particular area.
3 In Bosnia and Herzegovina, as you all know, the situation was
4 very different from how it was in Croatia
5 peaceful, also very different from what was happening in Slovenia
6 was actually a bit independent at that time, and also different from what
7 was happening in Macedonia
8 happening in those areas.
9 Maybe the last point on that particular section I can say, we
10 were also briefed on the weaponry systems, or the weaponry systems which
11 were used and available in those areas were shown to us through video and
12 also pictures. And we were also taught how to identify those particular
13 weapons when we see them, because some of them had been put in safe
14 areas, that is, in some factories, to ensure that the warring factions do
15 not access these weapons. This used to happen in areas where we could
16 call safe areas, were called safe areas or enclaves, whatever name you
17 may want to use. These are areas which were protected, or UNPA,
18 UN Protected Areas, like Srebrenica, Zepa, and I think Sarajevo, and some
19 other areas. Those were UN protected areas. So where -- these are areas
20 where all the heavy weapons were put in particular places and we had to
21 go and inspect them to make sure they had not gotten out. In any case
22 one of the weapons is seen outside, we could easily identify because we
23 had already been taught about them.
24 Q. Thank you. I did not want to interrupt you. I wanted to allow
25 you to say everything you want.
1 My next question is this: Who was it who briefed you when you
2 were transferred from Croatia
3 That's my first question. Thank you.
4 A. We were briefed by the staff officers in the UNMO headquarters in
6 were serving under the Chief of Staff. But it was a regular brief, it
7 was normal, and we got it from them.
8 Q. Thank you. Please --
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, is that perhaps a convenient time
10 for our second break? Thank you.
11 Sir, we must have our next break now, and we will resume in half
12 an hour at 1.00.
13 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 1.07 p.m.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before you continue your cross-examination,
16 Mr. Tolimir, I have to come back to some exhibits.
17 We had a discussion among the Judges about one decision I made,
18 and that is related to the documents P984 through P991. These were not
19 used with this witness and not admitted during the Popovic case with this
20 witness, and, therefore, I would like to ask the Defence if they object
21 to admission of these documents we have already received, but otherwise
22 normally we would only mark them for identification and admit them only
23 if the -- there is a showing that there is a relation between these
24 documents and the accused. But if there's no objection by the Defence,
25 we would leave it like it is.
1 [Defence counsel confer]
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
4 The Defence does not have any objections to the admission of
5 those documents and for the Prosecutor to express his opinion on what has
6 just been said.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
8 Then we leave it like it is, and these documents are exhibits
9 with the given numbers.
10 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, just to leave no doubt on the record,
11 these documents were, in fact, used with the witness. They just weren't
12 admitted -- the LiveNote indicates that they were not used and not
13 tendered but they were used and admitted through another witness. I just
14 wanted to clarify that.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: They were not used in our trial with this witness
16 but used in the other trial and admitted with another witness. I hope
17 now it's clear for the record. Thank you very much.
18 Mr. Tolimir, please continue your cross-examination.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
20 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Mr. Kingori, I did not interrupt you while you were talking about
22 Western Slavonia and Erdut, and you also mentioned Vukovar and so on and
23 so forth.
24 Could you now tell us whether you discharged the same duties
25 there. Did you appear in the role as a military observer and what was
1 your role there, actually? What did you do?
2 A. Your Honour, I was a military observer in both Team Erdut and
3 also in Team Srebrenica. In Erdut, I was the team leader, and when I
4 went to Srebrenica, I joined as any other UNMO.
5 The -- the roles and responsibilities of UN Military Observers
6 are many. Some of them being to observe any violations to the cease-fire
7 agreement and report on the same, to ensure that the -- the warring
8 factions are brought together to a negotiation table so that they can
9 discuss the problems they have. And in these, I'm talking about holding
10 meetings with either side and conveying the grievances or feelings of one
11 side to the other so that we can bridge the gap between the two factions.
12 The other one was to ensure that the weapons which have been
13 surrendered in a safe area, or UNPA, are kept in that safe area and no
14 access to them by the faction that actually surrendered them.
15 Another role was to negotiate for permission to leave or even
16 enter the enclave on behalf of other UN agencies and NGOs. Some
17 organisations, like UNHCR, IOM and all that, could not get access
18 sometimes unless there is an intervention by the UN Military Observers.
19 Also escort, give escort to some of these organisations so that
20 they're not harmed on the way.
21 One thing to note here is that military observers were never
22 armed and even the current officers who are serving as military observers
23 are not armed at all. Reason being, they should be in a position to
24 access both sides without fear, without the other side fearing them, or
25 them fearing the other side. If you're not armed, the other side will
1 not fear you because can you cause no harm to them. So you can easily
2 access their side. You can patrol the area without fear, because the
3 only weapon that you have as a military observer is a pen and a book.
4 That's -- those are the only weapons that you have. And also
5 communication equipment.
6 So really, those were the roles that we performed as military
7 observers, and I did the same roles in both Team Erdut in Eastern
9 Q. Thank you. Thank you. When we're talking about that zone which
10 is part of Croatia
11 was demilitarised, were they -- were there volunteers who moved from that
12 zone and joined the warfare in Bosnia and Herzegovina? Do you know that?
13 A. I really do not understand which volunteers you are talking
14 about, unless maybe you explain further. Are they volunteers to assist
15 in terms of what?
16 Q. Thank you. A lot of soldiers were disarmed in that zone in both
17 Eastern and Western Slavonia
18 terms. Would you say that some of those men that had been disarmed as
19 soldiers in those two areas, did they, later on, turn up in Bosnia and
21 instances? Thank you.
22 A. Your Honour, I did not hear of any instances whereby disarmed
23 members or people from Eastern or Western Slavonia crossed over to Bosnia
24 to fight. I'm not aware of that.
25 Q. Thank you. In that zone, was there a group known under the name
1 of Skorpions? Does the name ring any bells? Thank you. People who
2 called themselves Skorpions, a group of people.
3 A. Your Honour, I don't remember such a group.
4 Q. Thank you. Do you remember -- when you were in Srebrenica, do
5 you remember how far Trnovo is from Srebrenica? Do you know where Trnovo
6 is and how far it is from Srebrenica? Thank you.
7 A. Your Honour, there is written alternative -- I don't know --
8 Q. I repeat the name of the place. Trnovo, T-r-n-o-v-o. That's the
9 name of the place which was not properly recorded. Thank you.
10 A. I can't remember how far it was. It's a long time. But if I'm
11 shown on the map I can easily identify it.
12 Q. Thank you. Was it close to Srebrenica or was it in the zone that
13 you controlled? Did you hear of as a geographic term?
14 A. Trnovo, unless the spelling mistake, really, I can't remember
15 knowing such a place. But also there were so many places in that area
16 that I may not remember. So that's why I was requesting if you show me
17 on the map, I can easily identify whether it was in our area of
18 responsibility or not.
19 Q. Thank you. That wasn't in your zone. I asked you whether you
20 remember, and you don't, and I understand why, because the place is near
22 that place, committed by the alleged Skorpions. And the Skorpion group
23 was composed of the people from the area where you had served in Western
24 and Eastern Slavonia. They called themselves Skorpions. They came to
25 this place Trnovo and committed a crime there. Do you remember that?
1 A. Your Honour, maybe the people or the observers who can be able
2 explain that are those who were serving in that particular area, because
3 there must have been a team in that area. So if you ask me something to
4 do with Srebrenica, or Team Erdut, I may be able to explain. But that
5 was an area of responsibility of another team.
6 Q. Thank you. I just wanted you to confirm that it did not feature
7 in your reports, that you did not report about that crime, and that it
8 did not belong to the demilitarised zone of Srebrenica where you served
9 as an observer. Yes or no? Do you remember reporting about a crime
10 committed by a group called Skorpions, originating from Western Slavonia?
11 A. Your Honour, I never reported on anything from Western Slavonia,
12 at all, at all.
13 Q. Thank you. My next question. Why were you transferred from
14 Eastern Slavonia
15 A. Your Honour, the normal rotation of UN military observers is six
16 months you stay in one team, and then another six months, you're
17 transferred to another team. That was the normal rotation. But in case
18 other conditions arose, maybe you are appointed team leader or deputy
19 team leader in another team, you just transferred. So that was the
20 normal UN system. But, at the same time it is good to note that I stayed
21 there for only six months, which is normal, a normal rotation. So after
22 six months I had to be transferred to another team.
23 Q. Do you know what happened with this area of Western Slavonia that
24 was under the control of the United Nations after you left? And
25 Eastern Slavonia
1 A. I know Eastern Slavonia was taken by the Croats. And Western
3 was there, I was still there.
4 Q. Thank you. Upon arriving at Srebrenica, were you aware that,
5 apart from being a protected area, it was also a demilitarised area,
6 according to the agreement on safe areas signed?
7 A. Yes, I'm aware.
8 Q. Was it then part of your mission to make sure that this area was
9 demilitarised in keeping with the agreement and to check whether there
10 were any violations?
11 A. Your Honour, it was our role to make sure that there are no
12 violations to the cease-fire agreement. And that is why we had to ensure
13 that all the weapons which had been surrendered to the -- to the UN. And
14 in this particular case, that is, the Srebrenica issue, it was -- they
15 were being kept at the Bravo Company of the DutchBat. That is near our
16 PTT building, not very far from our PTT building. So that is where they
17 were kept. And the -- the DutchBat are the ones who were to ensure that
18 they're safe in that area and no one is allowed to take them from there.
19 So that is all we had to do.
20 Q. Thank you. Were you supposed to note the presence of any armed
21 persons within the borders of the demilitarised zone?
22 A. Yes, we were.
23 Q. Do you remember whether, in your daily situation reports, there
24 were any reports concerning the presence of armed persons in the
25 demilitarised area?
1 A. Yes, Your Honour. There is a time we noted some -- some --
2 some -- some men who were armed with small arms and we put that in our
3 report, and it is here somewhere with us, yeah.
4 Q. Thank you. Did you, as observers, receive information in any
5 other way except by personal observation? Did you receive information
6 from civilians or from the UNPROFOR, and did you pass on such information
7 to your command? If so, please describe how.
8 A. Your Honour, we received information from all sources. We had to
9 make sure that we receive everything that is available to us. And not
10 only what we see ourselves as military observers. So, in the process,
11 when you are told something and you have not confirmed, you've got to
12 indicate that it is not confirmed by you. So even in the situation
13 reports that we used to send, something that comes as a rumour, hearsay,
14 or whatever you may call it, we could put there NCBU, not confirmed by
16 Secondly, we used to hold meetings with both factions and we
17 could be told by this faction about the other and we could convey the
18 same to the other, in terms of trying to ensure that no open hostilities
19 arise, trying to ensure that the place remains safe, and also trying to
20 make sure that these people are getting closer and closer to each other.
21 But, at the same time, we had to communicate the same that we have
22 received from those meetings to our higher echelons so that they know
23 what is going on there. Some issues that -- that we conveyed to our
24 higher echelons, that is, the UNMO headquarters, was -- you know, were
25 meant to be discussed at other levels, not at our level. But we had to
1 inform them what is happening so that they can be aware so that they can
2 be able to investigate, and in case they want us to further investigate
3 from the ground, they would tell us to do the same.
4 And if you check most of the sitreps that are here, you will see
5 something to that effect.
6 Q. Thank you. In your answer, you refer to some of the things that
7 you mentioned in your statement on page 2. For the record, I would like
8 the Registry to show you your statement in e-court, and that's
9 Exhibit P992. I will be interested in paragraph 2, line 8, where you
10 speak about your mission and what it consisted of.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is the first page. Can we put
12 it on the left side, with the English version on the right, and display
13 the second page, second paragraph, line 8 of the statement in Serbian.
14 In English, it's on page 3 -- or, rather, the next page. That is the
15 page in English.
16 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
17 Q. You say in line 8 of the second paragraph, which is in fact the
18 third one, you say:
19 "The mission of the UNMO was mainly to observe and register
20 violations of the demilitarisation agreement and bring the sides together
21 and try to get them to come to a solution."
22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot find the passage.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think it is perhaps on the next page but I'm
24 not sure about that.
25 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, it's actually, I think, the prior
1 page, page 2 of the English.
2 Yes, top paragraph, I think: "The mission of the UNMO team was
3 mainly to observe ..."
4 Is that what General Tolimir was just reading? I think that is
5 what General Tolimir was reading from is that top portion there, where it
6 says: "The mission of the UNMO team ..."
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. It's line 1 of the second
8 paragraph on that page.
9 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Do you see now what I've been reading? Do you remember your
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Thayer.
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do, I remember this very well.
14 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
15 Q. From what I've just read, do I understand correctly that your
16 main task was to observe violations of the demilitarisation agreement, as
17 you indicated in this passage?
18 A. Your Honour, it is not written the main mission, as you're
19 putting it. It's the mission and is just one of the roles, because even
20 later on you can see I've said we also served as an intermediary between
21 the factions. And even below there you can see I have written we
22 reported activities to, you know, and all that. So it's not the main
23 mission, as you've put it. It's one of the missions. Because, after
24 all, if I may continue, after all, it was not in all areas in the former
1 area. Not everywhere. The UN protected areas were just a few of them, I
2 think there were five, that was Srebrenica, Zepa, Sarajevo, Bihac, and I
3 think one other, to make five. Those were the only UN protected areas.
4 Q. Thank you for this explanation.
5 However, if an area has the status of a demilitarised area and
6 this status is violated, does that change the entire status of the area?
7 Does it change your mission? And isn't it your primary task to make sure
8 that the area remains demilitarised, in order to keep its status?
9 A. Your Honour, I -- I really cannot be able to get what are you
10 saying, because it's not us to demilitarise. It's not for the UN
11 military observers to demilitarise an area.
12 I explained much earlier that we were unarmed. The weapons we
13 had were just a pen and a book. So our mission was not to demilitarise
14 an area.
15 Q. Thank you. I did not suggest that it was your task to
16 demilitarise. I suggested that your task was to observe whether the area
17 was demilitarised or not and to report. You could only send reports but
18 you could write in your report whether an area remained demilitarised or
20 Let me ask you this: Was Tuzla a demilitarised area? Just yes
21 or no.
22 A. Demilitarised, I don't understand what you mean. But if you're
23 talking about a UN protected area, Tuzla
24 Q. So Tuzla
1 A. What I mean is, a UN protected area had several designations. I
2 don't know whether you can call designations, but the -- the protected
3 area had to be demilitarised. So if Tuzla was not -- not a UN protected
4 area, it didn't have to be demilitarised.
5 Q. Thank you. You said a moment ago that Tuzla, Bihac, Gorazde,
6 Srebrenica, Zepa, and Sarajevo
7 resolution. Whereas, for instance, Tuzla held a US -- sorry, a NATO
8 military base called Eagle. How was it then possible for Tuzla to be a
9 protected area? Do you see the difference between -- is there a
10 distinction, in fact, between protected and demilitarised?
11 A. Your Honour, for sure. Let me repeat that I did not mention
13 that I mentioned Tuzla
14 mentioned Tuzla
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
16 THE WITNESS: And I can repeat those areas.
17 MR. THAYER: Unless General Tolimir has some other source for
18 this statement he has made, if we look at the LiveNote transcript at page
19 79, lines 7 and 8, Colonel Kingori specifically mentioned Srebrenica,
20 Zepa, Sarajevo
21 and he's made it clear in his answer how he viewed Tuzla.
22 So unless General Tolimir has another source for the basis of his
23 question that suggests that Colonel Kingori said Tuzla was a safe area,
24 then I think, at the very least, we're speaking at cross purposes,
25 because no such thing was said today in the testimony.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I didn't
3 say the witness said it.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
5 Q. I am asking him, did Srebrenica have the same status as Tuzla
6 And is there a great difference between a protected area and a
7 demilitarised area. Let's take Bihac, for example. Was Bihac a
8 demilitarised area or not? Was it both demilitarised and protected?
9 A. For the record, let me say straight and maybe a second time that
10 Srebrenica was a UN protected area. Tuzla was not. So I don't know what
11 else you want me to -- to say about -- they're two areas.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Witness, could you perhaps clarify one point
13 to avoid further discussions on that.
14 What is the difference between a protected area and a
15 demilitarised area?
16 THE WITNESS: A protected -- a UN protected area, sir, meant that
17 the UN comes in there. The United Nations peacekeepers go in there to
18 ensure that the people who are in there are safe, because they cannot be
19 able to defend themselves. And in the process, an agreement has to be
20 crafted to make sure that all the weapons held by these people who are
21 inside there, the ones who were fighting there before, are kept in a safe
22 place, and especially all the heavy weapons is -- this was mainly because
23 of the Dayton
24 weapons have to be put in a safe area. And that is why the UN now came
25 in as a maybe a battalion or two, depending on the size of the enclave to
1 make sure that there is no attack that can be carried out from outside to
2 the people living therein. So that is the demilitarisation bit and the
4 So you get demilitarised, then you get UN protection.
5 On the other hand, the other parts of former Yugoslavia were just
6 like that. People could fight, but, of course, in some areas, like if I
7 give an example of Erdut area, that is that the Eastern Slavonia, though
8 they had their own small arms, all the heavy weapons were put in various
9 designated areas where we, as military observers could go there and check
10 the weapons using a list that we had to ensure that no weapon has been
11 taken away from that -- that area. But, at the same time, is good to
12 know that they -- that is now -- if there is Eastern Slavonia, it's
13 Croats themselves are the ones who are making sure that that the weapons
14 are there.
15 At times, we could go and find some of the weapons had been taken
16 out. Or we could get reports that some of the weapons have been used
17 against the other people. And so we could go there and investigate which
18 is this type of weapon, from which store was -- was it taken out from,
19 and then make our reports. And our reports were very strong in that now
20 it would be dealt with at a higher level, to make sure that all those
21 weapons are returned to the safe area. Safe area in this sense what I'm
22 talking about is the store. So that they are not used against the other
23 people at any other time.
24 If we go back to Srebrenica itself, all the heavy weapons were
25 removed from the Muslims and they were taken to Bravo Company. That is
1 B Company of DutchBat. That compound, that is where those weapons were
2 kept. And they were not removed from there at all. So that is why
3 Srebrenica remained a UN protected area and also a demilitarised area.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much for that clarification.
5 Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Can you tell us, sir, what is the difference between a protected
9 area and demilitarised area and is there any difference to the status of
10 that zone? In a protected area, did even small arms have to be removed
11 and stored; whereas in a demilitarised area, both heavy weapons and other
12 weapons had to be removed?
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, the witness just has explained that.
14 It was exactly the same question I put to the witness. But if there's
15 any additional information you need, then carry on.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. But the
17 witness did not explain the difference between Zepa and Slavonia. In
19 were kept by the soldiers; whereas, in Srebrenica, both heavy weapons and
20 light weapons were supposed to be removed, taken away from armed persons.
21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Is that so?
23 A. Here we are talking about the -- the weapons being taken away
24 from the Muslims in Srebrenica.
25 And the heavy weapons, I just said, were kept in DutchBat,
1 B Company. For the weapons that you're calling light weapons, they were
2 also supposed to be taken away from them. And in fact they did not have
3 those -- those weapons. But then, small arms, it was very difficult to
4 control, you know, small arms. It is very difficult. Small arms, we're
5 talking about like an AK 47, like pistols. Those are difficult to
6 control in any situation, in any condition, and especially so during war
7 it's very difficult to control, you know, small arms. But small arms
8 cause minimal damage, and unlike the heavy weapons that the Bosnian Serbs
9 had, they cannot cause a lot of harm.
10 Contrary to maybe the line of thinking that we may take what
11 there is, the Bosnian Serbs had all the weapons. They had the heavy
12 weapons, they had the tanks, they had the artillery, the heavy pieces.
13 We're talking about 155-millimetres howitzers. We are talking about
14 mortars. We're talking about all those heavy weapons, even rockets.
15 So these there's a difference between these two, if you compare
16 the small arms, that is the AK 47 and pistols that maybe were left with
17 the Muslims in the enclave and the heavy weapons surrounding them, really
18 you cannot compare, really you cannot, because the Serbs were heavily
19 armed and were not hiding it because with them, you know, that was
20 normal. But those inside the enclave, the Muslims, all the heavy
21 weapons, the mortars and all that, as I said earlier, were kept
22 somewhere. But with small arms you could not be able to monitor all
23 that. But compare the weaponry system of both sides.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
25 Mr. Tolimir, we have reached the time for the break today. We
1 have to continue the examination tomorrow at 9.00 in this courtroom.
2 And, sir, please don't contact either party about the content of
3 your testimony during the break.
4 We adjourn, and we resume tomorrow at 9.00.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.
6 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 15th day of
7 September, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.