1 Monday, 20 September 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon to everybody.
6 The witness should be brought in, please.
7 Mr. Tolimir, I just recognised you, that you had some problems
8 sitting down. If there is any health problem, please indicate
9 immediately if you need some assistance.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
11 It's a different chair, and I didn't expect the back to be where
12 it was. But otherwise there's nothing -- no problem with me. Thank you.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm happy about that.
14 [The witness takes the stand]
15 WITNESS: JOSEPH KINGORI [Resumed]
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please sit down.
17 Good afternoon, sir. I realise your chair is a little bit
18 different than the chair last week. If you need some assistance to --
19 THE WITNESS: It's a bit low.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes. The court usher will assist you.
21 Now we can see you much better. Thank you very much, and
22 especially thank you, Mr. Thayer, for your assistance again. I think all
23 the chairs in this courtroom have been changed over the weekend.
24 So there is no need for further assistance for the witness. The
25 usher should sit down, please. No, no, it's fine now, it's fine now.
2 So finally everything is arranged.
3 May I remind you, Mr. Kingori, that the affirmation to tell the
4 truth still applies, and Mr. Tolimir has some more questions for you.
5 Mr. Tolimir, please proceed.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Peace onto this house. I wish to greet everyone present in the
8 courtroom, and the witness, and may the final outcome in this trial
9 reflect God's will.
10 Can we call up D67. This was the last document we were looking
11 at before we adjourned. Thank you.
12 Thank you. We can see the document now. It will shortly appear
13 in English, I suppose.
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir (Continued):
15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
16 Q. This is a document sent by the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
17 their army's General Staff. It was signed by Rasim Delic, and this is
18 something that we will see. And this was sent through the Command of the
19 1st Corps to President Izetbegovic, wherein the president is informed of
20 the steps taken and the men taken to Srebrenica.
21 You see, in the second paragraph, it states:
22 "Specifically, the following has been done for Srebrenica and
24 You will see there for yourself, but you can see it says:
25 "Seventeen helicopter flights were carried out ..."
1 And then we will have a look at the other pages. We will see who
2 signed the document and the amount of weapons they were sent. You see
3 what they received.
4 Zepa is in the first column, Srebrenica in the second, and the
5 third column stands for sum total. You see that there's heavy weaponry
6 there, such as rocket-launchers, hand-grenades, mortars, et cetera. And
7 you'll see it on the next page.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Not hand-grenades
9 but shells, artillery shells.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we turn to page 3 in order for
11 the witness to see that the document was sent by the general of the army,
12 Rasim Delic, to President Izetbegovic. Thank you.
13 Can we see the last page. There you see it, "Commander, Army
14 General Rasim Delic."
15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Can you now answer my question? Did you know that the Muslims in
17 Srebrenica and Zepa were getting armed and that they received their
18 weapons by helicopter, as stated in this letter that Delic sent to the
19 president on the 13th of July?
20 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreter didn't catch the year
21 Mr. Tolimir said.
22 THE WITNESS: Maybe I can request you bring the first page so
23 that I can see the date again, please.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now we have the first page on the screen. And
1 you should activate your microphone, Mr. Tolimir, if you have a question.
2 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Q. Witness, you can see it was sent on the 13th of July, and it was
4 forwarded through the Command of the 1st Corps to
5 President Alija Izetbegovic. Can you tell us now, were the observers
6 aware of the fact that arming was taking place of the enclaves of
7 Srebrenica and Zepa by helicopter?
8 A. Your Honour, I'm not privy to the information that is in this
9 letter because I've not seen it before, but the first time that we heard
10 about arming of the Muslims by helicopter was through a meeting we had
11 with Colonel Vukovic, who told us that there has been a helicopter which
12 has been shot resupplying arms to Srebrenica. We could not confirm that,
13 as in my report. We later on found that the chief of staff was injured.
14 So at least we knew there was something like that, but we never saw any
15 weapons being resupplied. We never witnessed any helicopter coming into
16 the enclave to bring arms.
17 Q. Thank you. Can you explain how it was possible for such an
18 amount of weapons as stated here should be sent, shipped to the enclave
19 without the observers having any knowledge of its taking place? Thank
21 A. Your Honour, it is possible for anything to happen like this
22 because, firstly, the armament you're talking about is not that heavy,
23 the weaponry. In fact, there's only, I think, one rocket-launcher and,
24 I think, one artillery piece that I have seen, so the others are small
25 arms and ammunition. So it is possible for it to be transported there
1 with us -- without us knowing.
2 Secondly, being three military observers, it was very difficult
3 to cover the whole enclave at one time, so maybe the time they are
4 resupplying is when we are in another location. But we never saw these
5 weapons, we never saw them having changed -- you know, the way you meet
6 people who have re-armed themselves, changing even in the way they
7 discussed issues with you, forcefully and stuff like that, we never noted
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can we have the second page on the screen again.
10 Please carry on, Mr. Tolimir.
11 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Q. Do you see that it includes 16 launchers under 7, that there are
13 97 -- 98 pieces of RPG, 106 rifles, et cetera? And I was reading the
14 figures for Zepa only. And Srebrenica was shipped even higher amounts;
15 292 RPGs, 44 launchers, et cetera. I didn't ask you to analyse the type
16 of weapons involved here. I only wanted you to tell me how it was
17 possible for the observers not to be aware of supplies of weapons being
18 sent by helicopter since the territory where these helicopters landed was
19 under the control of UNPROFOR. And these were no birds, mind you.
20 A. I think I've already answered that, in that we could not be able
21 to cover the whole enclave, and we did not notice it. We never came to
22 know about it, other than when we were told by Colonel Vukovic about one
23 helicopter that had crashed. We have no -- we did not have any further
24 information, and I gave the reasons.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now turn to page 1 of D67.
1 We will look at the fourth bullet point - that's page 2 - where
2 General Delic reports -- it's page 2 in English, the fourth bullet point:
3 "In preparations for a future operation to link up the enclaves,
4 we brought in and took back four brigade commanders, two brigade chiefs
5 of staff, and the 26th Division chief of staff. The division commander,
6 who was meant to go on the next helicopter flight, did not return. After
7 the final flight ended tragically, Naser remained."
8 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
9 Q. This is my question: Can you see here that General Delic was
10 informing Alija Izetbegovic of their intention to link up the enclaves of
11 Srebrenica and Zepa? Is that something that can be clearly seen in this
12 document, as well as the fact that the commanders were sent to Tuzla
13 prepare for this operation? Thank you.
14 A. This obviously has almost the same answer, in that at these
15 meetings of theirs, these letters that they were passing from one
16 headquarter to another, we were unable to get them.
17 Secondly, about the flights, we did not get to know whether they
18 occurred. We did not see them. So I don't have any other answer.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Please look at D53 now. Can we call it up in e-court, D53. It's
21 an order issued by the Main Staff of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina --
22 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreter didn't catch the date. It
23 was too fast.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It says "Preparation for offensive
25 activities, orders for the Command of the 28th Division."
1 Can the text be enlarged, please.
2 It is stated therein:
3 "Pursuant to a verbal order issued by the commander of the
4 General Staff of the BH Army --" so this was a verbal order given while
5 they were down there -- "and on the occasion of the great success
6 achieved by units of the BH Army in the wide area around Sarajevo and
7 Gorazde, as well as on the basis of intelligence, that the command of the
8 army forces of the Protection Regiment in Han Pijesak is holding part of
9 its units in reserve to intervene in the event of an attack by our forces
10 from Zepa. I hereby issue the following order:"
11 Under 1:
12 "Execute all preparations in the Command of the 28th Land Army
13 Division to execute offensive combat operations, with a view to
14 liberating the territory of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
15 over-extending and inflicting losses on the aggressor forces whilst
16 co-ordinating action with the BH Army forces carrying out operations in
17 the broader Sarajevo
18 "2. Plan realistic tasks which will assure certain success ..."
20 "3. The General Staff of the BH Army will regulate, by an order,
21 the commencement of offensive combat activities in the zone of
22 responsibility of the 28th Army Division."
23 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Based on this order sent by the General Command of the BH Army on
25 the 17th of June to the 28th Division, can you tell us, is it not true
1 that, with this document, they were called upon to carry out offensive
2 combat activities out of a demilitarised zone?
3 A. Your Honour, the letter is self-explanatory on the same, but
4 also --
5 Q. Yes. But you, as an observer, were you aware of the fact that
6 offensive activities were being prepared which were to take place out of
7 a demilitarised zone in the months of June and July, pursuant to an order
8 from the General Staff of the BH Army?
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, if you look on the screen, you see
10 your question took a very, very long time. Then the witness tried to
11 answer your question, and after one line and one word you interrupted
12 him, and again you put a question to the witness. I think it would be
13 more fair if you would let him answer as -- in that way he wants to
15 Mr. Thayer, did you want to add something? Thank you.
16 Mr. Kingori, would you please continue with your answer.
17 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, what I was saying is that the letter,
18 itself, is self-explanatory, but we need to go deeper into this than just
19 what we are seeing, in that the same way the Muslims, according to my own
20 assessment, were preparing themselves, the BSA must also have been doing
21 the same. And also we need to consider that the preparations by the
22 Muslim side is from a point of weakness, a point whereby they are not
23 strong enough. In fact, I don't see them having been in a position to
24 cause any -- to start any attack on the BSA because they could not
25 sustain it. They were not armed. The kind of arms that they had, mainly
1 small arms, the ones that we are seeing in the least here for resupply --
2 for supply to that place, there are very few heavy weapons, and you can
3 see that. The RPGs are not heavy weapons. The ones we are mentioning,
4 98 of them, they are not heavy weapons. Those are hand-held.
5 So if you can look at the whole scenario, the kind of re-arming
6 that the Muslims were having is minimal and is more mainly -- according
7 to me, more mainly on the defensive side than offensive. I don't see
8 them being in a position, even at that particular moment, to attack the
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Let's now have a look at document P986. It's an operative report
12 dated the 30th of June, 1995, which was sent by Mr. Becirovic to the
13 Command of the 2nd Corps, where he reports on the combat activities taken
14 out of the enclaves of Srebrenica and Zepa.
15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Witness, kindly have a look at this document and see the number
17 of Serb soldiers who were reported to be killed in this operation out of
18 the demilitarised zone. You will see that in this first bullet point,
19 below the first paragraph, it says:
20 "Thirteen Chetniks killed.
21 "Two light machine-guns captured.
22 "Several dozen Chetniks wounded."
23 And it says that:
24 "Our casualties were two dead and three wounded."
25 And then below paragraph 2, in the first bullet point, it says:
1 "Seven Chetniks killed."
2 Likewise, below paragraph 3, it is stated that:
3 "Several successful sabotage activities were carried out in the
4 territory occupied by the enemy, across some 20 to 40 kilometres deep
5 within the territory in the areas of Han Pijesak and Vlasenica
6 municipalities; namely, Visnjica settlement and Bajte stronghold,
7 Crna Rijeka area, Vranj common feature," et cetera.
8 In the first bullet point is stated:
9 "Over 40 Chetniks are estimated to have been killed ..."
10 Can we turn to the next page in e-court, please.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Your question will be a very long one again.
12 I think you made the point --
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sorry. You made the point, reading some portions
15 of it. It would be helpful if you now could put a question to the
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me complete it.
18 I'm reading the bullet point which says that 40 Chetniks were
19 killed and 1 enemy soldier was taken prisoner. So this is the end of the
20 quotation, and here is my question for the witness:
21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Did you, as a military observer, have any knowledge of the fact
23 that Muslim forces were carrying out these activities out of the
24 demilitarised zones of Zepa and Srebrenica in the months of June and
25 July, inflicting heavy losses on our forces, more than 40 dead? Did you
1 have information to this effect? Thank you.
2 A. Your Honour, the only way that this information could have come
3 to us, if it was passed through the BSA. In all the meetings that we
4 held with them, they never mentioned anything like this. That means, you
5 know, you still have to remember that war is done through propaganda, so
6 all these things could have been propaganda in that you're sure, like,
7 you're the one who's winning the war, whereas maybe you're losing.
8 Secondly, the BSA, how come they never reported to us on anything
9 like this?
10 And to answer the question directly: We never got to know about
11 this issue because nobody had reported to us.
12 Q. Thank you. Was the VRS supposed to report to you or to the
13 command -- your headquarters in Sarajevo
14 UNPROFOR HQ of these events? Did you receive any information from them?
15 Yes or no. Thank you.
16 A. Your Honour, we did not.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 Could we now see the witness's statement, page 5, paragraph 2,
19 line 1. Thank you.
20 THE REGISTRAR: For the record, that is Exhibit P992.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 I apologise. I didn't say the number -- or, rather, the
24 reference for the e-court. It's statement P992. This is page 4 in the
25 English language version, page 6 in e-court, whereas in Serbian it's
1 paragraph 2, line 1. Thank you.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Page 6 in e-court, not page 4. Thank you.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Please take a look at your statement, where you say, in
6 paragraph 2, sentence 1, I quote:
7 "The situation was calm until the 6th of July at 300 hours, when
8 the BSA started shelling the town of Srebrenica
9 That's the last paragraph on this page in English; page 4, that
10 is. Now somebody turn to page 5.
12 "The situation was calm until July 6th, at 300 hours, when the
13 BSA started shelling Srebrenica town."
14 These are the last three sentences on the previous page in
16 Could we please show the witness page 4 in English.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please go back one page. Thank you. Now we have
18 it on the screen.
19 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Is the fact that there were no combat activities behind this
21 statement of yours until, as you say here, the BSA started shelling the
22 town at 0300 hours -- was it really like that, that there was no combat
23 activities until that point in time?
24 A. Your Honour, I can confirm to you that there were no combat
25 activities which were happening at that particular moment, other than
1 this shelling that started at 300 hours on this day.
2 Q. Thank you. Since it was calm until the beginning of the events
3 at Srebrenica and Zepa on the 6th of July, which is the date you
4 mentioned as the date the shelling started, until that period were there
5 any contacts between UNPROFOR and the Serb side or UNPROFOR and the ABiH
6 side, or did any observer complain of the fact that there were combat
8 A. Of course, we have reports, you know, previously. The days
9 earlier -- some days earlier, we had an attack through a tunnel. We also
10 had a report from the RBiH, that is, the Muslim side, that they have been
11 hit from the BSA side. You know, those reports were there. We were
12 getting those reports earlier on, but it's sort of there was nothing much
13 because -- let's say for sure in Srebrenica, and let's say the whole of
14 the former Yugoslavia
15 fire, we were not calling that as a major military activity. But when it
16 involved heavy shelling, that was an issue that had to be taken very
17 seriously. So when we talk about the situation was calm at this
18 particular moment, it doesn't mean that there is nobody was shooting --
19 you know, firing one round or two rounds in whichever place, but what we
20 mean is that this is a change from the normal. This is actually heavy --
21 heavy shelling, and that is why we had to talk about it this way.
22 Q. Thank you. You continue to say in your statement, on page 5 and
23 page 6, that there was shelling, and you describe it and you count
24 shells. And on transcript page 176 -- 1D176, I quote:
25 "On this first day of shelling, we only had few casualties.
1 Actually, there were injuries from shrapnel. Surprisingly, the number of
2 casualties was not great."
3 Also, on page 19185, you say:
4 "Above all, I would like to say that it was very surprising to us
5 that there was such heavy shelling, and yet when we went outside, we
6 found a very small number of casualties or injured soldiers."
7 So you say here when you go outside. Go outside from where?
8 From where did you observe this shelling?
9 A. Your Honour, the issue of from where, really, is -- to me is not
10 a very big one, because you can count the shells from wherever you are,
11 provided you are within -- you are around that area. And we were able to
12 count from our PTT building the number of shells which were landing. And
13 you can always know the difference between incoming and outgoing fire, so
14 you could be able to count the shells which were landing on the enclave,
15 both in Srebrenica, Potocari, and those other areas. Other areas where
16 we could not be able to go, we were depending on the observation posts
17 which were manned by DutchBat.
18 The other question that you asked about why the casualties were
19 that low, that was our observation. The casualty level was lower than
20 anybody could have expected out of the heavy shelling that was in that
21 place. We went outside there from our PTT building. We went out and did
22 crater analysis and also took the injured and the dead to hospital, and
23 we could be able to see the number of the casualties. We were in a
24 position to know.
25 The level of the casualties maybe was low because the people were
1 inside their buildings, and we were also telling them, and it's somewhere
2 in my statement, that we were requesting them to remain in their shelters
3 in the buildings instead of coming out, because the shelling was for some
4 time and then it stopped, and that was the time we were going out, and
5 then we would go back to our PTT building.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think you quoted from the transcript in the
7 Popovic case. Is that correct?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour.
9 Thank you, and I apologise for not making my reference clear enough.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
11 Please continue.
12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 Q. You said a minute ago that you were in a position to know the
14 number of casualties. Can you tell us how many you saw in that period
15 from the 6th until the 11th, that is, how many dead people and how many
16 injured people, and what were the numbers mentioned in your report
17 concerning these events? Because this is not in your statement.
18 A. I hope, Your Honour, you're not pushing me into sort of analysing
19 the number of people who were dead during the whole onslaught, because
20 it's all documented, it's in the situation reports which we were sending,
21 which are attached here, and I don't think I can be able to remember all
22 the figures that I put.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
25 MR. THAYER: Good afternoon, Mr. President.
1 I also just wanted to note for the record that, in fact, if --
2 and I'm not sure if it's still on the screen, but Colonel Kingori's
3 witness statement does go into detail in terms of the number of wounded
4 and casualties that he dealt with. So if General Tolimir does have
5 certain sections that he wants to call to the witness's attention, he's
6 perfectly capable and knowledgeable of where those sections are. It's in
7 his statement and it's in all the reports that are already part of the
8 92 bis with cross package, so I think the statement that it's not in the
9 statement is just inaccurate.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: For the record, the Popovic transcript is P950.
11 Mr. Tolimir.
12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Witness, you said a minute ago that you cannot remember all the
14 casualties during the massacre. Do you consider this shelling a
15 massacre, and can you remember the number of those who died and were
16 injured during the shelling, or not?
17 A. Your Honour, to me, this was a massacre. That is my assessment.
18 The aim was very clear from the beginning, even before the onslaught
19 started; that they were to remove all the Muslims, and if the Muslims
20 cannot be able to get out of the enclave themselves, they will kill all
21 of them. That is the message that we got from Colonel Vukovic on several
22 occasions. So the aim was very clear from the beginning, the mission was
23 very clear. It was to wipe out the Muslims from that enclave. Of
24 course, the way it was conducted was also not as good as you would call
25 otherwise in that the shelling -- the heavy shelling that occurred in a
1 particular area can show the aim of those who are attacking, because the
2 most important thing in a war is, first of all, to bring your opponent to
3 a negotiating table, yet -- you weaken him so he comes to the negotiating
4 table. But at this particular moment, it was like to annihilate the
5 enemy, clearly annihilate the enemy, clear the enemy from that area
6 completely. And that's why I would say we were surprised by the low
7 number of the casualties.
8 Now, if we come to the figure of the casualties, it is somewhere
9 in my report, but the total figure, really, I cannot -- I cannot remember
10 it. Here, we are talking about those killed, those injured, and those
11 displaced, because all of them were affected by the whole assault on the
13 Q. Thank you. Since you are giving evidence here, could you please
14 describe at least one dead person you saw and where you conducted an
15 on-site investigation or reported about the person's name? Because you
16 speak here about genocide, about planned genocide, and I understand you,
17 but you're not a Prosecutor; you're a witness. The Prosecutor can speak
18 in an aggregate manner about all -- everything I'm charged with, but I
19 would like to ask you what exactly you saw. Can you tell us?
20 A. Your Honour, even in my statement, in our reports, it's indicated
21 somewhere - I think it was the first or second day - that we picked one
22 dead person from Srebrenica town and one injured, and we took to
23 hospital. The others, later on after that, we have quoted the figures.
24 But at least -- you know, you ask for one person, if I saw one, and I'm
25 telling you I did. And not just one; I saw several.
1 Also, in my statement, where we had -- when in Potocari, where I
2 tried to go to a white house where the Muslims were being taken in the
3 evening or during the day, and then gun-shots could be heard, when I
4 tried to enter that house, I was denied access. Later on, one person was
5 taken there, and I saw him being taken inside there. And as I was going
6 out because I was denied access, I heard a gun-shot. And that guy did
7 not get out of that place. We did not see him after that. What do you
8 think happened to that person? As far as I'm concerned, he was killed,
9 because I stayed out there, I did not see him get out. So this is
10 evidence that people were being shot, people were being killed.
11 Secondly, and maybe I'm [indiscernible] badly, when you threw a
12 shell to some people, and especially civilians who are unarmed, really,
13 you are not sending food to them. You are sending a shell to kill them,
14 not to spare them, because if there was any intention of helping them, it
15 would be by sending food to them, by making shelter for them, or anything
16 else which can be humanitarian in nature, not sending artillery shells
17 and, later on, even bringing tanks within that particular enclave. And
18 it's quoted in my statement that we saw tanks approaching, and that is
19 the time we left our PTT building to go to Potocari.
20 The last part, maybe, of my answer is that finally there was an
21 assault of the whole enclave, that is, infantry assault, which is the
22 last part of any war, that is mopping up, ensuring that there's nobody
23 left in that particular war zone. So all that clearly shows what
25 Q. Thank you. Do you know the exact name of the person who was
1 taken to the white house? Was that reported to you by his family? And
2 did you see the one who fired the gun-shot? Because we are here
3 testifying about events and not about hearsay, so please tell us
4 something that we may be able to establish through other witnesses.
5 Thank you.
6 A. Your Honour, I did not see anybody pulling the trigger.
7 If maybe I can continue.
8 I did not see anybody pulling the trigger because, in the first
9 place, I was not allowed to enter that house, so -- and I did not escort
10 that person when he was going in. Secondly, they even threatened to
11 shoot me if I dared go inside, and so I had to leave. But when I left
12 that particular house, and we waited outside there together with UNPROFOR
13 guys, and he did not come out. And as well, as I said earlier, we heard
14 a gun-shot. So that is all the evidence that I have. I did not see him.
15 I did not know his name either.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Can we please see P992. That's the witness's statement. Page 7
18 in the Serbian, first paragraph, and in English it's page 8 in e-court,
19 the last-but-one paragraph. This is about the events that took place on
20 the 9th of July, 1995.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can see page 7 in Serbian,
23 paragraph 1. And in English, it's page 8, which we can also see.
24 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Here, you say -- however, we would like to display page 8 in
1 e-court, not page 8 of the statement. Thank you.
2 "The building was in range."
3 I'm reading paragraph 1. I'm on page 7 in Serbian, and that's
4 page 8 in e-court, the last-one-one paragraph. It says:
5 "The building was in range. We decided to abandon it and start
6 moving toward Potocari. Osman Suljic first tried to prevent us from
7 leaving. We convinced him of the necessity to leave for our own safety,
8 and then he told us that we should inform everybody of the fact that
9 chemical weapons were used against them."
10 My question is --
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I'm not sure if we have the right
12 paragraph on the screen. I don't see --
13 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, it's the right one. It's the
14 second-last paragraph.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In the middle, yes. Thank you.
16 Now your question, please.
17 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 Q. Have you read this part of your statement? Yes or no, so that
19 I can put my question. Thank you.
20 A. Your Honour, I've read it. You can continue.
21 Q. Thank you. Were chemical weapons used in Srebrenica, as far as
22 you observers knew? Thank you.
23 A. Your Honour, the answer is just there, in that we said we could
24 not confirm that.
25 Q. Thank you. Did Mr. Suljic, whom you know, want to send out a
1 false piece of news about the use of chemical weapons in Srebrenica, and
2 he tried to do that through you? Thank you.
3 A. Your Honour, it's difficult to say that, in that the fact that we
4 could not confirm it, the fact that we had not seen, doesn't mean it did
5 not happen. It's only that we had not seen it. So it was not confirmed
6 by us, so -- and we cannot say whether it was true or not. Maybe it's in
8 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us whether you checked that
9 information to establish whether it was reliable, and did you include it
10 in your report? Thank you.
11 A. Your Honour, it's all in our report, in the sitrep that we sent
12 to the headquarters, and we also confirmed -- you know, say that it was
13 not confirmed by UNMOs.
14 Secondly, that is the time -- if you can read further, that is
15 the time we left that PTT building for the safety of ourselves, and we
16 headed to Potocari DutchBat compound. So that time we could not -- and
17 the war, actually, was very intensive that time. We could not go out to
19 Q. Thank you. Did you ever hear, after the event, whether or not
20 chemical weapons were actually used in Srebrenica? Thank you.
21 A. Your Honour, I later heard of something like that, that chemical
22 weapons were used. But myself, personally, I could not confirm. I just
24 Q. Please tell the Trial Chamber from whom you heard that and when.
25 Thank you.
1 A. Your Honour, it was in the internet that I searched and found
2 something like that, something to do with Srebrenica. If you look at the
3 internet, you see such issues being raised there. But as I said, myself,
4 as an UNMO, I could not confirm that.
5 Q. Since you attached your reports to this statement as annexes, and
6 it says on page 11 of your statement -- could we please see it? Or,
7 rather, we have page 11 here, and it's page 12 in Serbian, line 1 --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
9 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
10 Q. You say in line 1, on page 12 in Serbian, and that is page 13 in
11 English -- page 13 in e-court, mind you, you say here:
12 "Attached to my statement ..."
13 Attachment number 23. Can you see it on this page in English?
14 A. Yes, I can.
15 Q. Please tell the Trial Chamber how the reliability of that
16 information that you included only subsequently, when you gave your
17 statement to the OTP, can be established.
18 A. Your Honour, I don't understand the question. Maybe you can say
19 it again.
20 Q. Thank you. In these attachments that you gave the Trial Chamber,
21 is there anything that you put down subsequently, after the events in
22 Srebrenica? Thank you.
23 A. Maybe you can bring that document, please.
24 Q. Thank you. You know what you gave the Trial Chamber. But is
25 there anything that you drafted after the events in Srebrenica and that
1 differs from the reports that UNPROFOR has and that you submitted on the
2 very day these reports were drafted? Thank you.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, in the OTP's statement of the
4 witness he said that he provided the attachment number 23 to the OTP, not
5 to the Trial Chamber. This is an OTP statement. I'm not sure what you
6 are referring to. And if you want to get an answer by the witness, you
7 should show him this attachment so that he is aware of what you are
8 talking about.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
10 He has now read which attachment I'm referring to. My question
11 is whether this attachment differs in anything from the attachment that
12 he submitted to his superior command on the day of the events, because I
13 don't have that one. I cannot compare. So I'm asking whether there's a
14 difference or not. Thank you.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And Mr. Kingori asked you to show him the
16 document. Otherwise, he will not be able to make any distinction between
17 different documents.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 My question was whether Mr. Kingori altered any document, not
20 just attachment 24, but any document, whether he altered anything, added
21 anything to it after the events in Srebrenica. Thank you.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
23 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, we now have General Tolimir making
24 allegations that the witness has altered some attachment to his OTP
25 witness statement, and he is not giving the witness the opportunity to
1 even look at what he's talking about. First he's talking about
2 attachment 23, now he's alleging that he's somehow altered attachment 24.
3 I'd like to know, first of all, what the basis for that statement is.
4 And he's not showing us any evidence -- any support for this allegation
5 that anything's been altered in any way. He's just asking questions with
6 no basis and not doing the witness the courtesy of showing him what he is
7 talking about.
8 The accused has had these reports for years now. He knows what
9 they are. And if he doesn't, I will read out the ERNs to these reports
10 so that the witness can be shown. I prefer not to have to do that. I
11 prefer that General Tolimir conducts his cross-examination with common
12 decency and courtesy to the witness, but I will do that, and we can put
13 them on the ELMO and we can go through every page of these attachments to
14 see exactly what the general alleges has been somehow altered or changed
15 or added.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, can you apply the guidance by the
17 Chamber and the comments of Mr. Thayer and show the witness the documents
18 you are referring to? Otherwise, you shouldn't continue in that way.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Let me first respond to what my learned friend said.
21 He said that General Tolimir alleged. I didn't allege anything.
22 I put a question to the witness, and I asked him if he altered any of the
23 attachments that he submitted to the OTP. He stated here that there was
24 attachment 24, so I asked him if there were any amendments made to it.
25 And I can show you the attachment. It's P980. But that was not my
1 question. My question was whether he wrote -- or added anything to it
2 after the events in Srebrenica. Thank you.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Again, Mr. Tolimir, it would be helpful if you
4 could show the witness the document. Then he can answer your question.
5 He requested it.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
7 I said that in e-court it's P980, but that was not my question.
8 My question was whether he made any subsequent annotations after the
9 events in Srebrenica. Thank you.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, your question is if he altered something in
11 the document or if he amended the document, and you should show the
12 document you were referring to.
13 Is this the document you were talking about?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
15 That's the document he referred to, and I quoted him on that, and
16 that was the foundation for my question. And I asked him if, after the
17 events in Srebrenica, he had added anything to any of the documents, in
18 view of the fact that he was in possession of these documents up until
19 the point he gave his statement. Thank you.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Kingori.
21 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, if it is of -- on account of whether I
22 altered any documents, whether the ones I had or the ones which were left
23 there, the point is that I did not alter any document at all. I don't
24 remember altering any at all because, in the first place, any alteration
25 could also be seen because you'd not be using the same computer that you
1 had, you'd not be using the same satellite communication or whatever, so
2 it's very easy to detect.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
4 MR. THAYER: And again, Mr. President, I would like to know what
5 the basis is for this repeated allegation that there have been
6 alterations by this witness. General Tolimir started off referring to
7 attachment number 23, I might note for the record, and then he couldn't
8 keep his story straight and changed it to attachment number 24. So
9 whether it's 23 or 24, Mr. President, I think General Tolimir owes it to
10 this witness to tell this Trial Chamber and tell this witness what his
11 basis is -- what his good-faith basis, as an officer of the Court, is for
12 putting that question to the witness.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: There's only one disagreement with me, at least.
14 There was no allegation, but a question. And, of course, there's a
15 certain allegation or estimation of Mr. Tolimir that there could have
16 been something added or altered.
17 Mr. Gajic.
18 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with your permission,
19 if I can briefly respond to Mr. Thayer. I don't know if there was an
20 error in interpretation.
21 The question that was put was a simple one, and the basis for the
22 question was the very fact that the witness had these documents. So
23 there were no allegations made, only questions. And the basis is the
24 fact that the witness had these documents with him; nothing else.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is the document on the screen the attachment
1 number 23 or 24, Mr. Tolimir?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, we have attachment number 24
3 on our screens. And can we re-read the page of the witness's statement
4 referring to this attachment? That's page 12 in e-court in Serbian.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before we do that, I would like to see the whole
6 document. That means the next page.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The next page in English, please. Let us also
9 see the very end of that page. It is not on the screen.
10 It appears that this is not a complete document, because item 8
11 ends in the middle of a sentence. But if this is the whole document, you
12 should proceed and again go back to P992, the OTP -- the witness
13 statement for the OTP. Which page was it?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 12, line 1. That's in
15 Serbian. In English, it's probably page 13 in e-court. Thank you. The
16 witness was reading it a moment ago.
17 You see on page 12 -- can we have the appropriate page in
18 English, page 13. Laying the foundation for my question, I read the
19 following quotation:
20 "Attached to my statement are five pages of information we
21 provided (attachment number 23)."
22 Well, I didn't, myself, refer to attachment 23, as Mr. Thayer put
23 it. I merely quoted the witness's statement.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, now you are referring to attachment
25 number 23. We saw attachment number 24, one page. Here in the
1 statement, we see an indication attachment number 24 has two pages. We
2 only saw one page. Now you are referring to number 23. Before you put a
3 question related to that attachment, you should put it on the screen. We
4 haven't seen it yet.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm not referring to
6 attachment number 23, I'm merely quoting the witness's statement. If he
7 can follow in English. Maybe it was misinterpreted:
8 "Attached to my statement, under number 23, attachment 24."
9 So he's referring to attachments 23 and 24. I'm not doing that,
10 myself. I only wanted to draw your attention to the fact that
11 attachments were made to the statements that were in the possession of
12 the witness.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, that is clear. Everybody knows it in the
14 courtroom. If you want to put a question related to one of these two
15 attachments, then you should put it on the screen so that the witness can
16 see it. That's all.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't want to put a question in
18 reference to any of this, because we will be wasting time, losing time.
19 I only wanted to ask the witness if he had added anything to the
20 documents that he had in his possession up until the point he gave his
21 statement. That was all. But I will move on to my following question.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You already received a clear answer to that. He
23 denied that.
24 Please carry on.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
1 Can we call up 1D287 in e-court. This is a document sent by
2 General Krstic to the Main Staff of the VRS on the 10th of July, 1995
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We can see it on our screens.
5 Thank you. Can you enlarge it so that the witness can read it clearly.
6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
7 Q. This is a document, dated the 10th of July, which General Krstic,
8 as the commander of the forces deployed around Srebrenica, sent in order
9 to report on the UNPROFOR situation in the Srebrenica enclave:
10 "On the basis of surveillance and monitoring of the situation in
11 the Srebrenica enclave, as well as the statements of UNPROFOR soldiers
12 who surrendered to our forces and asked for our protection, we conclude
13 that the Muslim Army has surrounded UNPROFOR and assumed control over it.
14 "The Muslims seized some of UNPROFOR's combat equipment (armoured
15 combat vehicles, heavy artillery pieces, and ammunition) and are using it
16 in combat against our forces."
17 Chief of Staff Major General Radislav Krstic.
18 This is my question: Were you at any point informed by the
19 United Nations, be it during these activities or after these activities,
20 that Muslims had been seizing combat vehicles and combat hardware? Thank
22 A. Your Honour, there's no time that we got to know about that. And
23 as far as I knew, nothing like that happened. Unfortunately, the
24 opposite is true; that is, it's the BSA who seized tanks belonging to the
25 DutchBat. So that is the armoured personnel carriers, and also the
1 soft-skinned vehicles. It is all in my statement -- I think either in my
2 statement or some of the situation reports it is documented that the BSA
3 seized some APCs and also soft vehicles.
4 Q. Thank you. Can you tell the Trial Chamber when was it that the
5 VRS seized what you just referred to, and was it after the green signal
6 was given where --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Can Mr. Tolimir repeat the last part of his
8 question, please.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you were asked by the interpreters
10 to repeat the last part of the question. They were not able to catch it.
11 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber when the hardware -- the UNPROFOR
13 hardware was seized by the VRS, and was it after Franken had issued a
14 green alert signal, at which point he, as he put it, entered into a war
15 against the VRS? Thank you.
16 A. As of the dates when this occurred, I really cannot remember, but
17 it is in the report, and that the first seizure was of two APCs which
18 were in one of the OPs, observation posts, which were taken by the BSA,
19 and the soldiers also taken together with them. The soldiers were later
20 given permission to leave and joined the other -- the DutchBat in
21 Potocari, but the tanks were not released by the BSA. That was the first
22 instance and is recorded.
23 The second instance was when one of the soft-skinned vehicles
24 were coming back from Bratunac. It was seized by some of their soldiers.
25 We later on asked Major Nikolic who these soldiers were, and they said
1 those were not the regular soldiers who took that vehicle. So whether
2 regular or not regular, they would belong to the BSA. So at least I know
3 of those two instances which are recorded here.
4 Q. Thank you. Do you know that transcripts were reviewed here and
5 it was cleared up that this group of soldiers had surrendered to the VRS,
6 and that General Nicolai thanked the VRS for the fact that none of them
7 were injured and for the fact that they were transferred first to
8 Bratunac and then to Potocari? It was the Prosecution that showed the
9 transcript, not I.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
11 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I'd be very curious to know what the
12 citation is for General Tolimir's allegation or his contention that
13 General Nicolai ever testified that he thanked anybody in the VRS for
14 taking the DutchBat soldiers into captivity. I would like to know what
15 the citation is for that proposition if that's going to be put to this
16 witness as something that is in evidence before this Trial Chamber.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
19 Mr. Thayer will remember quite well that he had admitted
20 a notation by the assistance of General Nicolai wherein it was stated
21 that discussions took place and that General Nicolai thanked for the fact
22 that the soldiers were transferred to Bratunac. This happened during the
23 testimony of General Nicolai, and I asked the witness here if he was
24 aware of it. I didn't ask him if he had read or seen the transcripts.
25 My question had to do with his knowledge. And Mr. Thayer will be
1 familiar with the note - it was admitted through General Nicolai - where
2 his assistants recounted the conversation he had with Tolimir.
3 Thank you.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Kingori, can you comment on that?
5 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I have no comment on that.
6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Q. Can you tell us, was the green alert signal given before the
8 10th? And I'm referring to the document we have on our screens, which
9 General Krstic sent on the 10th of July.
10 A. Your Honour, I answered such a question the other day, when I
11 said that I was not aware of the green alert. And whether -- maybe you
12 can explain it better to me, whether it means highest level or all that,
13 because I'm not aware of those colours or what -- I had answered that
14 question earlier, that I do not know about their lads.
15 Q. Thank you. There's no need to re-put the question. I showed you
16 the transcript of Mr. Franken's evidence, where he said that on the 9th,
17 10th, and 11th, he was waging a war with the VRS, and you read those
18 pages and said that you had no comments. Thank you.
19 A. Your Honour, if you may allow me to say something on that, in
20 that the -- the issue that you are driving at, that is, on fighting from
21 the UNPROFOR side -- the UNPROFOR side fighting the BSA, I don't think
22 that ever happened, if I can remember very well. The point is that it
23 reached a point where the UNPROFOR had to defend themselves, and I agree
24 with that, that they were being targeted -- that is, the DutchBat, they
25 were being targeted by the BSA, and it's documented that their
1 observation posts were being targeted by the BSA. And so, really, what
2 option were they left with? They definitely had to fire back. They had
3 to fight their way out of those particular endangered observation posts.
4 The fact that maybe there were some BiH soldiers behind or whatever
5 doesn't mean that they were fighting together with the Muslims. They
6 were just fighting their way out of a situation whereby they were being
7 subdued by the BSA.
8 Q. Thank you. I understand. I don't want to comment on what
9 Mr. Franken said in his evidence. He was in command of these forces, and
10 you were an observer but still did not know that this took place. It's
11 only now that you learned of the green alert, so I won't belabour the
13 Can we now call up 1D103, please.
14 We can see it on our screens. Please look at paragraph 1 only.
15 This is a document calling general mobilisation in Srebrenica
16 municipality. Under 1, it reads:
17 "Immediately mobilise all able-bodied citizens from 16 to 60
18 years of age for the purpose of joining TO/Territorial Defence units,
19 Public Security stations, Civilian Protection units, and compulsory work
21 The document was signed by the president of War Presidency,
22 Mr. Hajrudin Avdic.
23 The question is: Did you know Mr. Hajrudin Avdic? Thank you.
24 A. I remember there was somebody by that name, but I didn't know him
25 very well. I can't remember him. But at least I've heard that name
2 Q. Thank you. Do you know if Srebrenica had a wartime president or
3 a wartime presidency? Thank you.
4 A. No.
5 Q. Thank you. Does it follow from this document that it was the
6 War Presidency that signed the letter, or, rather, the president,
7 Hajrudin Avdic, on its behalf? Do you see it here in the signature
9 A. This is a letter that I never came across, so I think your
10 assessment could be as good as mine. I don't know who signed. I don't
11 know on behalf of whoever. I don't know.
12 Q. Thank you. Since you are not familiar with this: Does it not
13 follow from the document that all the able-bodied citizens of Srebrenica
14 from 16 to 60 years of age came under the military obligation?
15 A. Your Honour, that would be a generalisation which may not be very
16 correct, in that saying that those of the age of 16 to 60 years be
17 recruited is just a generalisation that everybody who is 16 to 60 years
18 was recruited. I said the other day that maybe some of them could not
19 have made soldiers. Some of them could have been injured, some of them
20 could have been sick, some of them could have been unable to do it,
21 anything. So, really, saying -- you know, saying this doesn't mean that
22 those who were of this age bracket became soldiers.
23 Q. Thank you. Isn't it correct that the authority issuing this
24 order imposes the obligation to become mobilised upon all of the
25 citizens, and it is down to that authority, ultimately, to decide who
1 will be recruited or who will not? Thank you.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We'll first hear the answer, if there's an
3 answer, and then you'll get the floor, Mr. Thayer.
4 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, really, on this document I have got no
5 answer. There's nothing I can say about it.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
9 MR. THAYER: I was just wondering if there's a date on the
10 document. There's a stamp with a date on it, but that's the date that
11 this document was provided by the Republika Srpska commission. But I'm
12 just wondering if there's any date that we can have.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That would exactly be my question. I would like
14 to have the top of the page and the bottom of the page. First, the top
15 of the page in both languages, please. Thank you. There's nothing else
16 than we have seen earlier. Now please go to the bottom of the page.
17 We have to note there is no date on this document, not in the
18 original B/C/S version, nor in the English translation.
19 The stamp contains, as Mr. Thayer already noted, the date the
20 27th of May, 2004, and this is the date contained in your list of
21 documents that you indicated to use. But this is obviously a stamp of
22 the commission for investigating the events in and around Srebrenica that
23 was done much later, but we don't have a date of this original document.
24 Mr. Tolimir, you indicated before the witness appeared in the
25 Tribunal that you would use six to seven hours for cross-examination.
1 Now you have exceeded eight hours of cross-examination. And you
2 indicated to be able to finish during the first session of today. We are
3 now at the end of the first session. I would like to know: How do you
4 want to proceed?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
6 I have three more questions, and I want to note that the ERN
7 number here is the Prosecution's, so it's an OTP document which they
8 probably received from the Commission for Investigating War Crimes and
9 was disclosed as such. It wasn't admitted.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The first of your --
11 [French interpretation on English channel]
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: ... before the break.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 I would try to do so. However, it has to do with the map that we
15 spent an entire session on. So in order for us to avoid time
16 constraints, maybe I should put this question after the break, although,
17 if need be, I can accept your suggestion.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In the meantime, we have reached the time for the
19 first break.
20 We will adjourn now and resume quarter past 4.00.
21 --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 4.19 p.m.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
25 I would just ask the three questions that I still owe you. I owe
1 them to you, the witness, and the Prosecution. And I must point out and
2 draw your attention to page 1195 of the transcript of the 15th of April.
3 It's about Mr. Groenewegen [Realtime transcript read in error
4 "Baronjik"]. I will quote what I said to him then, because the
5 Prosecutor asked me to quote:
6 "Mr. Groenewegen [Realtime transcript read in error "Kingori"],
7 you have just told us that you saw a UN truck full of refugees. Can you
8 tell us what happened on that day when you saw the truck? Thank you."
9 That was my question. And his answer was:
10 "It must have been on the 10th of July."
11 I thanked him and asked him whether the VRS was deployed at
12 Potocari at the time. He said that he hadn't seen them then, but that is
13 on the 10th.
14 I still owe this to you because I made a reference to that
15 transcript. And I have no question concerning this because it is
16 self-explanatory that the Muslims came on the 10th of July. And this
17 witness also said that General Mladic made an ultimatum to Mr. Karremans
18 to the effect that he wouldn't --
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We didn't understand
20 Mr. Tolimir's last sentence or so. Could you please repeat and rephrase.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, the interpreters asked you to repeat
22 the last question or the last part of your last sentence. And I would
23 like to ask you: It is not clear for me which part of your statement was
24 a quotation and which was related to what. I really don't understand.
25 And in page 37, line 3, I see in the transcript a quote:
1 "Mr. Kingori, you just told us that you saw a UN truck full of
3 Were you really using the name "Mr. Kingori"? I think there
4 could be a mistake.
5 Mr. Gajic.
6 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there must have been a
7 mistake in the translation. It's about Mr. Groenewegen and not
8 Mr. Kingori.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And there is another name which is unclear to me
10 at the beginning. "Mr. Baronjik" on page 37, line 1. Whom were you
11 referring to, Mr. Tolimir? Was it also Mr. Groenewegen?
12 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, that's the very person.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Okay. But now, Mr. Tolimir, what is the question
14 for this witness?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I thought of not asking any
16 questions, because I still owed this information to the Prosecutor. But
17 I can ask the witness a question, whether he remembers that on the 10th
18 of July there were still Muslim refugees at the Potocari camp.
19 THE WITNESS: Yeah, there were some.
20 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Was that why General Mladic issued one of his ultimatums to
22 Mr. Karremans regarding these refugees at the Potocari camp?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. Thank you. Last time you spoke about an ultimatum, but perhaps
25 you don't remember. But tell us, did the VRS bring those refugees on the
1 10th of July or was it the UNPROFOR who did it, and was any VR -- were
2 any VRS troops at Potocari at that time?
3 A. Your Honour, it's very clear, what I answered before, that no
4 UNPROFORs involved in bringing the Muslims to Potocari, and I didn't see
5 any other vehicles being used to ferry, either by the BiH or even
6 UNPROFOR, to transport the refugees or IDPs to Potocari. I've said that
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no more
9 questions about this, but I would like to move on to another topic and I
10 would like to show the witness a map.
11 Could we please see document D182. That's the cessation of
12 activities on the establishment of the UN observation post at the village
13 of Lozina.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you please repeat the number? It can't be
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise. It's actually D82. I
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. We now see the document
20 on our screens.
21 The witness wanted to see where the village of Lozina
22 brought a map and marked the position of that village with a label. So
23 the village is above the blue label on the map.
24 Could the usher kindly hand the witness the map, which is in the
25 possession of my legal assistant, for the witness to see the position of
1 the village of Lozina
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, to clarify, we have a report on the
3 screen, but not a map. Did you ask for a map to be brought up on the
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I wanted the report to
6 be displayed on the screen because it mentions the village of Lozina
7 line 3. The witness said he didn't know where the village was before he
8 saw it on the map. Thank you.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If the witness is able to find the location on
10 the map, the map should be put on the ELMO so we all have the opportunity
11 to see it when the witness has found the location.
12 THE WITNESS: That's the location, sir [indicates].
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Do you have any additional question to that? I
14 remember that you had many questions related to this location. Now you
15 may put a question to the witness.
16 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Q. Can you now reply if you know to what this document refers, now
18 that you've seen the location of the village of Lozina
19 meeting between the UNPROFOR and somebody else was about concerning the
20 cessation of activities there?
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's remark: We didn't understand all
22 the accused said.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, the interpreters didn't catch all
24 what you have said or meant.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
1 I asked the witness whether he can answer now, having seen the
2 location of the village of Lozina
3 the engineering works, stopped, the work on erecting an UNPROFOR
4 observation post.
5 THE WITNESS: I don't think I have a proper answer to this,
6 because in that particular area I don't remember there being a lot of
7 activities, and so I really cannot remember the reason why they were
8 prevented -- that is, the DutchBat were being prevented from erecting an
9 OP there.
10 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Q. Do you remember or did anybody of the UN soldiers tell you that
12 they were blocked by the Muslims, that some 100 soldiers were in that
13 position, amongst whom were the deputy commander, Mr. Fortin? Thank you.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
15 MR. THAYER: We need to do a couple of things here,
16 Mr. President. The first is there's a reference to the deputy commander,
17 Mr. Fortin, and I presume that's then Major, now Colonel Franken that is
18 being referred to, number 1. And, number 2 -- well, I'll just leave it
19 at that and see how the remainder of the questioning goes, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are you able to answer the question?
21 THE WITNESS: No, sir. I can't remember the reason why they were
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Kingori, you indicated the location of this
24 village, Lozina. I can't see it very properly on the map, but it looks
25 like "Letnja" [phoen] and not "Lozina."
1 THE WITNESS: That's the one that is highlighted?
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, it's highlighted.
3 THE WITNESS: Maybe it's the pronunciation. I don't know.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But I see "Letnja," L-e-t-n-j-a.
5 THE WITNESS: It's true, that's what I can see also, sir.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Or L-o-z-n-j-a. It's an O, yes. But is that the
7 same as the village we were discussing earlier? That was Lozina.
8 I think there's a difference.
9 Mr. Thayer.
10 MR. THAYER: I think -- without testifying, I think I can
11 represent the Prosecution's position that Loznja and Lozina are in fact
12 the same villages, as far as the Prosecution is concerned. There's no
13 dispute that we're talking about the same villages, the one that's
14 identified here on the map and the one that's identified in the exhibit.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That's also the position of the Defence?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. That is
17 the position of the Defence as well.
18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
19 Q. In this document, in the third line from the top, the village of
20 Lozina is spelled with a double Z, which stands for the letter "zez" with
21 a diacritic, which isn't in the English alphabet. The English alphabet
22 doesn't have it.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Now I think it's clear, for
24 the record, the village to which we're referring.
25 Your next question, Mr. Tolimir.
1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 Q. My following question is: Did the UN observers attend the
3 meeting about this problem that had come about in the village of Loznja
4 A. Your Honour, for this particular meeting, you can see we had been
5 represented by Romilton of Brazil.
6 Q. Thank you. In the fourth paragraph, that is the fourth line, it
7 says that the meeting was attended by the chief of the military
8 observers, Romilton from Brazil
9 proposal that the works involved in the erection of the observation post
10 be halted. My question is whether he spoke about the problems in that
11 village of Loznja.
12 A. Your Honour, he did not discuss it. In fact, I really do not
13 remember anyone telling me about the problem in that particular area.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think the map can be removed from the ELMO, if
15 there's no need to use it any further. Then it may be given back to the
16 Defence. It is not possible to -- it is not possible to receive it as a
17 document or to mark it for identification because it is not in e-court.
18 Carry on, Mr. Tolimir.
19 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Q. Since Mr. Romilton, as the chief of the observers, supported the
21 removal of the UN observation post from that location, can you tell us
22 whether the principle of pencil and note-book was substituted by the
23 gun-and-bullet approach, as far as the UN observers are concerned?
24 A. Your Honour, I really do not understand what you are after here
25 in that question. Really, I can't get a glimpse of what you are talking
1 about. So, please, can you -- I request you frame it again in a better
2 way, in an easier way.
3 Q. Thank you. Have you heard that the chief of the observers,
4 Romilton, supported the Muslims and requested that the UNPROFOR remove
5 the observation post? Yes or no. Thank you.
6 A. Your Honour, I don't think this is a question of yes or no,
7 because the way I answered the other day is that really I cannot remember
8 the reasons why it was to be removed. And even now I've already said
9 that I cannot remember the reason why it was being removed, and so I
10 cannot be able to elaborate any further.
11 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me why UNPROFOR has a different
12 attitude, because they want to erect an observation post to see what's
13 happening on the ground, and the observers, whose attitude is opposed,
14 and obviously don't want anybody to see what's going on on the ground?
15 A. Your Honour, I don't think that was the situation on the ground
16 at that particular time. I said I cannot remember what happened, but on
17 the account that you're saying that military observers actually were
18 supporting it and that the UNPROFOR was not supporting it, I don't think
19 that was the main thing. The main thing is, when you go for a meeting,
20 you agree. Sometimes you may not necessarily have to all agree, but what
21 came out of that meeting is that it should not be erected there. So it
22 really does not matter who was opposing or who was not opposing. You
23 know, it's a matter of them agreeing finally. You don't have to have the
24 same feelings about the same thing. So what came out is what is more
25 important than the discussions that they had, whoever supported, you
1 know, whoever did not support. Provided they agreed on the same thing,
2 that is okay.
3 Q. Thank you. I would like to finish off this problem with the
4 following question: Did you know that this village and its wider
5 surroundings were a corridor between the enclaves of Srebrenica and Zepa,
6 and that this was a reason for separating the two enclaves forcefully
7 with weapons? Were you familiar with that or not?
8 A. Your Honour, almost everywhere in the enclave, and especially to
9 the southern and south-western side, was a way through to Zepa, almost
10 everywhere there. And obviously the BSA should be able to tell us better
11 about it because they were the ones negotiating with the Muslims on how
12 to go and how to come back. So that's the answer I can give.
13 Q. Thank you. You're answering to the Trial Chamber, and they will
14 assess the value of your answers. I don't need them.
15 My question to you is: Document D67, paragraph 4, when Delic
16 said -- that's the one we read earlier.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Tolimir please read slowly because we
18 cannot follow.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I have to stop you because the
20 interpreters couldn't catch that. It was too fast again, and we don't
21 know which document you are using while reading.
22 Mr. Thayer.
23 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, Colonel Kingori has been here for a
24 while. He's a grown man, he's a military officer. He can handle
25 himself. But if General Tolimir truly believes, as he just said, that he
1 doesn't need the witness's answers, then he should stop asking questions,
2 or, in the alternative, treat this witness with a modicum of respect that
3 is befitting this Tribunal and befitting this witness's stature as one of
4 the only heros who was on the ground in Potocari during those days when
5 that population was removed. I would ask that General Tolimir extend
6 that simple decent courtesy to this witness or stop his questioning.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I must confess, Mr. Tolimir, I was astonished
8 about your comment as well. You requested the witness to answer to the
9 Trial Chamber, you don't need the answers. I don't know why you are
10 stating that.
11 You indicated before the break you have three additional
12 questions. You have now put more questions to the witness. It's again
13 half an hour of cross-examination. You should now put the last question
14 to the witness. You should now put the last question to the witness, and
15 I hope you will be able to finish.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
17 In no way did I offend this witness throughout my examination.
18 What I meant to say was that the Trial Chamber would be assessing the
19 witness's evidence, and not I. I never asked him to give the sort of
20 questions [as interpreted] that would be in my favour. I'm merely asking
21 him to answer them.
22 And the question I was about to put had to do with D67, which we
23 have before us now, and let's look at the fourth bullet point. That's
24 page 2 in English. The second bullet point in English and the fourth in
25 Serbian. It reads:
1 "In preparations for a future operation to link up the enclaves,
2 we brought in and took back four brigade commanders, two brigade chiefs
3 of staff, and the 28th Division chief of staff. The division commander,
4 who was meant to go on the next helicopter flight, did not return. After
5 the final flight ended tragically, Naser remained."
6 Based on this document --
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is the second time today that you read this
8 portion into the transcript. What is the reason? What is the need for
9 that? Put a question to the witness. It should be the last one.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I withdraw the
11 question. Let's move on to my last question. May I put my last
12 question, by your leave?
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please carry on.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Can we call up P963, page 2. It's a portion of a report on
16 Srebrenica, drafted by the Dutch Institute for War Documentation. That's
17 section 4, chapter 5 of the report.
18 We're interested in paragraph 3. Since there is no translation,
19 Serbian translation, I'll read it out in Serbian and you'll have it in
20 English on your screens. I'm quoting:
21 "At the time --"
22 And the reference is to the 9th of July, 1995:
23 "At the time that the UNMOs left Srebrenica in a great hurry --"
24 and "UNMOs" is short for "observers," that's my explanation, so I'll
25 start again:
1 "At that time, the UNMOs left Srebrenica in a great hurry ..."
2 And again the reference is to the 9th of July:
3 " ... one of them, the Dutch Major De Haan, was already at the
4 compound in Potocari. He had arrived there on July the 1st for some
5 minor surgery, but had hung around the compound ever since, to the
6 annoyance of many DutchBat members. De Haan, himself, declared that he
7 had gone back to work on July the 10th, inside the compound as well as
8 outside it. The former was something that depended on how you looked at
9 it. The remaining UNMOs, UN observers, Kingori and Tetteh, already
10 joined him on July 9th, when things got too hot for them, and they left
11 the compound again only after the fall of the enclave. They didn't make
12 a very good impression when they sent their interpreter, Emir Suljajic,
13 back to Srebrenica with a Motorola walkie-talkie to count and report on
14 the shell bursts. Some DutchBat soldiers liked to call the UNMOs
15 'UNBOs,' standing for 'UN Bunker Observers,' because 'when something had
16 to be observed, these people were sitting in the bunkers.' Two
17 interpreters also said later that the United Nations Military Observers
18 hardly ever tried to set foot outside the door and very much relied on
19 them." The interpreters, in other words. "Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans
20 also made a vain attempt to send them back to Srebrenica. 'When that
21 failed, I sent my own liaison officer team.'"
22 And that's a quotation -- that is to say, Karremans' words are
24 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Sir, were you aware of such remarks having been made in reference
1 to you that had been the subject of reports within the United Nations?
2 Thank you.
3 A. Your Honour, first and foremost, I heard about this, but not when
4 I was there, not when we were in the enclave. Secondly, I don't believe
5 somebody who was living in the bunker can be able to make crater analyses
6 and send them to the UNMO headquarters.
7 I also do not think that somebody living -- or somebody living in
8 bunkers could be able to assess the situation and make proper reports on
9 the same -- on the onslaught on the enclave.
10 Thirdly, you've even seen us in the films that have been shown
11 here. I don't believe even when we were giving out the bread, when I was
12 talking to Major -- to General Ratko Mladic, that was a bunker. We were
13 not in a bunker when we were discussing with him.
14 I also do not believe, and nobody should be forced to believe,
15 that we were relying on the two interpreters, the reason being when we
16 sent out Mr. Emir to go out there, it was out of our own initiative that
17 we must collect information that could help us in knowing how the enclave
18 is. We have already -- I have already documented that we had to leave
19 our PTT building due to the onslaught, the heavy shelling that was
20 evident there, and so we had to leave the PTT building. That should not
21 be contested by anybody, because it was out of our own security and to
22 enable us to continue with the reporting that we had to make back to the
24 So after we went to DutchBat and everybody else, even including
25 MSF and everybody else, they all went there, including the inhabitants of
1 the whole enclave, and that is well documented, going there for safety
2 was what we could not avoid, because that is where we could have gotten
3 security and safety. That does not mean that we were working from
4 bunkers. We were sending our reports from our own office. In fact, in
5 Potocari we never entered any bunker. In Srebrenica village, that is,
6 the town itself, in the PTT, we could go to the bunker whenever shelling
7 became heavy. The DutchBat did not necessarily have to know what we were
8 doing, because, in the first place, we were not working as one body. We
9 were different and we had different roles in that enclave.
10 So the allegations that you are trying to use really do not hold
11 any water at all. The truth is we did our work the way -- to the best of
12 our ability, and we let people know, through our reports, what was
13 happening. And it is confirmed that whatever we could not confirm, like
14 when we were relying on information from Emir Suljajic, our interpreter,
15 we were writing, It is not confirmed by UNMOs. It was just a report for
16 the higher headquarters to know what was going on.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Kingori.
18 I think that was your last question, Mr. Tolimir, but I think you
19 raised your hand and wanted to say something.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 I promised before the Trial Chamber, both to the Prosecutor and
22 the witness, that I would distribute page 61 of the 1st Protocol to the
23 Geneva Conventions, and I only wish to inform you that the usher is in
24 possession of copies and everybody can read them for ourselves. And I
25 only want to add that this is not an assessment I made. It is an
1 assessment made by the Dutch Institute for War Documentation.
2 I thank the interpreters and everyone else who assisted me in my
3 cross-examination, as well as the witness for giving me his answers.
4 Thank you, Mr. President, for your guidance and for showing
5 consideration toward the Defence whenever something unexpected arose.
6 So I thank the interpreters and I thank the officers who
7 retrieved documents from e-court. Thank you.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
9 Mr. Thayer, do you have re-examination?
10 MR. THAYER: I do, Mr. President.
11 And we can stay with P963, this Dutch report that General Tolimir
12 just referred to. And I guess if General Tolimir is going to be trying
13 to distance himself from the clear import of the sections that he's
14 reading from this report, it's only fair to the witness to draw the
15 witness's attention to the portions that General Tolimir didn't want to
16 show the witness from this same report that General Tolimir seeks some
17 cover from when he says that, These aren't my questions; these are just
18 the statements from a Dutch report.
19 If we could have page 3 of this document, please.
20 Re-examination by Mr. Thayer:
21 Q. We all heard General Tolimir just read this -- these passages
22 from this report that referred to various unnamed UNPROFOR soldiers and
23 some other sources. I want to turn your attention to this paragraph that
24 he avoided showing you, that he didn't have the courage to show you, when
25 he was impeaching your courage, sir, the one here where it says:
1 "The one UNMO who appears to have been most active in those days
2 after the fall was the Kenyan major, J. Kingori."
3 That's you, I take it. Correct?
4 A. Correct, sir, and I'm happy to see such a report.
5 Q. "He could, in fact, be seen in the film images made on July 12
6 after the entry of the Serb troops and Mladic. He was also the one who
7 asked him why the men were being separated. At Franken's request, he
8 watched the white house on July 13th to check whether the number of men
9 who were led in corresponded with the number who came out. And as
10 DutchBat soldier Koreman [phoen] wrote in his diary, Kingori also
11 protested continually against the brutal manner in which people were
12 packed together in the buses."
13 Do you agree with that, sir?
14 A. Yes, sir, I agree with that.
15 Q. Now, in addition to the video that the Trial Chamber has already
16 seen, where you were helping distribute bread, where you confronted the
17 senior Serb officer about the conditions in the white house - we saw that
18 - where you were present with Mladic, where you testified how you
19 confronted him as well about the white house, can you tell the
20 Trial Chamber, when you were in Srebrenica town from the 6th of July to
21 the day you left Srebrenica, as you said, because of the shelling, the
22 9th of July, when you were performing the duties that you described for
23 this Trial Chamber, can you tell the Trial Chamber was it easy for you,
24 going out and doing the crater analyses, trying to warn people to stay in
25 the shelters? Was that something that you found easy?
1 A. Your Honour, this was the most trying moment, if I can say, in
2 the whole of my life, because here you are -- at that particular moment,
3 we were two observers, me and David Tetteh. The shelling has started.
4 It's ongoing and it's heavy. We had to ensure that people who were
5 inside that enclave are safe, and at the same time we had to report so
6 that the higher echelons of the UN can know what is happening in the
7 enclave. And there were just the two of us.
8 And, secondly, we were unarmed. We did not have APCs, that is,
9 armoured personnel carriers, and we had to go out there. Carrying out
10 the crater analysis was one of the most important elements the UN really
11 wanted so that they can know the kind of weapons being used and the
12 location of those weapons; I mean, where they are being fired from. So
13 it was not as easy as it sounds here.
14 That day, sir, when the shelling became extensive, actually
15 intensive in Srebrenica town itself, we had to leave, and we requested
16 for permission from the mayor. We actually called for a meeting, and we
17 told him, We have to leave. And it's in my report that they did not want
18 us to leave that place because they wanted us to continue assisting them.
19 But finally, after a second request, and that was allowed from -- after
20 we requested our headquarters to allow us to leave, and that time he
21 agreed that we can leave Srebrenica. On our way out, it was very, very
22 unsafe. This may not have come out clearly at any other moment, but it
23 was very, very unsafe, and anyone who was driving our jeep and we were
24 being fired at from all corners.
25 So, in short, what I'm trying to say is that we did our work to
1 the best of our ability, considering the situation that was on the ground
2 and especially the heavy shelling from the BSA, and also considering that
3 there were people inside -- in the enclave who needed to be safe and who
4 needed to be rescued. The injured had to be taken to hospital, and we
5 had to do that. And we had to warn those who were still in the enclave
6 to make sure that they don't venture out, due to the nature of the
7 shelling that was going on.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
9 Mr. Gajic.
10 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] My apologies, Mr. President, for
11 interrupting Mr. Thayer. I apologise again, but I have to react.
12 On page 51, in line 19, the Prosecutor said that Mr. Tolimir did
13 not have the courage to present something to the witness; specifically,
14 other portions of this document. I think that a remark of this kind is
15 quite inappropriate and it's quite improper, because Mr. Tolimir did have
16 the courage to explore all the various issues in this case, and
17 specifically he also dealt with issues Mr. Thayer addresses.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
19 Mr. Thayer, please carry on.
20 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 And I'll just note for the Trial Chamber, we don't even need to
22 look at it, but it's on page 6 of this same Dutch report, another section
23 where the report finds that the things that Colonel Kingori says that he
24 has seen appear to be confirmed by other sources. That was another
25 section of this report that General Tolimir didn't show this witness.
1 Q. Now, sir, do you recall the date that you left Srebrenica for
3 A. Yes, Your Honour. I think it was on the 9th.
4 Q. Okay. And you just told the Trial Chamber about a meeting you
5 had with some members of the Muslim community in connection with your
6 decision to leave Srebrenica for Potocari. Can you describe the
7 emotional state of any of the Muslim representatives with whom you spoke
8 at that time when you were telling them of your decision to head to
10 A. Your Honour, it was very emotional. The first meeting that we
11 had, one -- one or two hours before they allowed us to leave, they
12 actually said we cannot leave because they are going to be killed, all of
13 them. When we informed our headquarters, they told us just to keep
14 trying, to request them if they can let us leave, and so we organised for
15 the second meeting after about one or two hours. During that meeting,
16 that's the time I saw I think it's the mayor, Osman -- Osman Suljic or
17 so. Yeah, Osman Suljic. He said, You people are leaving us here at the
18 mercy of the BSA. Why? Do you want them to kill all of us, or something
19 like that. You know, if you leave us alone, these guys are going to kill
20 us. Why do you want to leave us? Secondly, who we would report to the
21 international community about what is happening in Srebrenica if you
22 leave us here? Then we tried to excuse ourselves by telling them that --
23 by the way, at that time he was actually shedding tears. You can imagine
24 an old man like him shedding tears. You know, it was very emotional, and
25 we could feel it ourselves. When we had to reply to him, we told him,
1 Sincerely, sir, we have to leave this place because it's becoming very
2 unsafe for us, and we are better off going to Potocari, where it's a bit
3 safe, and continue reporting on any event that occurs here, other than
4 our staying here and then being killed here or even be harmed in such a
5 way that we would not be able to keep reporting to the international
6 community through the UN.
7 Q. And can you tell the Trial Chamber what the date was when the
8 removal by the VRS of the population from Potocari actually began? What
9 day was that that the buses arrived and began taking people away?
10 A. Your Honour, I think this was on the 12th.
11 Q. Okay. Now, General Tolimir selected some testimony from
12 Mr. Groenewegen, in which Mr. Groenewegen stated that he recalls some UN
13 trucks arriving on the 10th of July with Muslims from Srebrenica. I want
14 to show you 1D00072, a Defence exhibit listed for your cross-examination
15 and referred to by, I believe, General Tolimir earlier in his
17 And if we can go to page 2 of the -- yes, page 2 of the document,
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, when I wanted to use
21 the document, the Prosecutor was opposed, and you ruled that it should be
22 thrown out of e-court. That's why I referred to Groenewegen's evidence
24 Number 2, I didn't want to interrupt the Prosecutor while putting
25 his question. I am not distancing myself from the assessment made by the
1 Dutch Institute, and this is something that the Prosecutor, himself, said
2 in the beginning of his redirect. I presented it to explore why there
3 were some different accounts on the part of UNPROFOR members and
4 representatives of observers. That is all. Thank you.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The manner of your statement, Mr. Tolimir,
6 I think there is no need to continue this discussion, because Mr. Gajic
7 has explained something, and we should leave it like this.
8 For the first point you made, indeed, we have seen the document,
9 and there was a discussion about that, and it was not tendered by you
10 after we have had this discussion. But we don't know what Mr. Thayer
11 will do with this statement and in which way he will deal with it with
12 this witness. You may raise objections later.
13 Mr. Thayer.
14 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Q. Now, we see at the bottom of this page 2, where it says:
16 "At about 1600 hours on 10 July, Sergeant-Major Van Shaik ordered
17 us to leave the shelter. We were told to form a line together with the
18 infantry in order to lead the refugees who were ..."
19 And if we can go to the next page in English, please.
20 "... now beginning to trickle in to the compound. I will draw
21 for you with green dots on the map the line in which we stood. When I
22 say 'refugees,' I mean Muslim refugees."
23 Now, we can skip down to where it says:
24 "Between 1100 and 1200 hours on 11 July 1995, the BSA arrived
25 from the direction of Bratunac. The first group, consisting of about 20
1 to 30 men, looked like Rambo fighters, dressed in camouflage suits and
2 armed with AK-47s. I did not notice whether they wore insignia."
3 So we can see here, according to this OTP witness statement from
4 Mr. Groenewegen, that he's recalling that the VRS actually entered on the
5 11th of July. And if we look down a little further, he says that:
6 "At about 1500 hours on the 11th of July, General Mladic arrived
7 with his bodyguards."
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm not sure if we have the right page in B/C/S
9 on the screen. Now it changed. In English, it was fine, but in B/C/S,
10 we had the wrong one. Thank you.
11 Please continue.
12 MR. THAYER: And then we see in the next paragraph, Groenewegen
14 "Later that day, the refugees began to be taken away in BSA
16 Mr. President, this is why I asked for representation from the
17 Defence about whether it was going to contest such fundamental historical
18 facts as when the removal of the Muslim population from Potocari began,
19 because as far as the Prosecution has understood, that is one thing that
20 is not in contention in this case by anybody, that it began on the 12th
21 of July. And we still don't have an answer. We were never given an
22 answer. And now I'm in the position of having to go through this
23 exercise with Colonel Kingori to ask him the question whether it appears
24 to him that Mr. Groenewegen, in this OTP witness statement, is simply off
25 by a day when he says that the removal of the population began on the
1 11th, as opposed to the 12th, as Colonel Kingori recalls it.
2 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, he's off completely, in that these
3 events, that is, the removal of the refugees from Potocari, started on
4 the 12th, as I had earlier said and as I have written in my statement.
5 Also, in the situation reports that we sent, it was the same, on the 12th
6 that this happened. So this is completely off by one day.
7 Q. Now, sir, I want to move on to another area --
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
10 While we're both looking at the document, both linguistic
11 versions: In English, the third paragraph, that is line 5 in the Serbian
12 and the third paragraph:
13 "On the same day, four-ton trucks arrived from the direction of
14 the Bravo Company. The trucks were packed with refugees, men, women,
15 elder people and children. In one day, the compound filled up with
16 refugees. I estimate the total of something like 2.000 people. Bravo
17 Company is stationed at Srebrenica."
18 That is what I quoted from this statement, and I was forbidden to
19 use this in examining this witness. If I wasn't allowed to use it then,
20 then let it be recorded at least now that this was the section from the
21 statement that I read out.
22 This would be my objection. Thank you.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have read it out, we see it on the screen, and
24 Mr. Thayer should continue.
25 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 Q. Sir, I want to take you to another area of your testimony.
2 On numerous occasions last Thursday, you testified that the
3 document under which you understood you and your fellow UNMOs in
4 Srebrenica were operating was a cease-fire agreement. Do you recall that
5 testimony at numerous points last week?
6 A. Yes, Your Honour.
7 Q. And you made it clear, moreover, that the cease-fire agreement of
8 which you were aware included the demilitarisation agreement which -- and
9 to use your term, the cease-fire agreement was all-encompassing. Do you
10 recall that testimony?
11 A. Yes, Your Honour, I do.
12 Q. And that's at transcript page 5410 to 5411.
13 Now, at transcript page 5413, you repeated again, and I quote:
14 "You're asking me whether I know of an existence of a
15 demilitarisation agreement, and I said that the demilitarisation that I
16 knew of was what was in the cease-fire agreement. I did not get to see
17 any other document on demilitarisation; that is, between the Bosnian Serb
18 Army and the Muslim side."
19 Now, I want to do something very simple and show you a document
20 and ask you if you recognise it.
21 General Tolimir showed you the demilitarisation agreement and a
22 number of its sections, which I believe you testified that you hadn't
23 seen. Now I would like to show you 65 ter 6554, please.
24 Colonel, please take a moment and review this document. We don't
25 have a translation of it, unfortunately.
1 It's not something I thought was going to be an issue, frankly,
2 with this witness's testimony. The pertinent portions I'll just read
3 into the record, and that can be translated for the accused.
4 Colonel, when you are ready for the pages to be turned, please
5 just let us know.
6 A. Yes, sir, we can move to the next one.
7 I'm through this one.
8 Yes, sir, I'm through with this one also.
9 Q. Okay. Colonel, my first question for you is: Do you recognise
10 what this document is?
11 A. Yes, sir, I reckon.
12 Q. And can you tell the Trial Chamber what it is?
13 A. Your Honour, to me, this is a cease-fire agreement, and it
14 encompasses all issues to do with the enclave, that is, the Muslim side
15 and also the BSA side, and it's signed by their representatives.
16 MR. THAYER: Okay. If we could go back to the first page of this
17 document, please.
18 Q. Now, does this appear to you to be the cease-fire agreement under
19 which you were operating, or do you think you had a different cease-fire
20 agreement in mind when you testified?
21 A. Your Honour, we had this. We were working with this also. And
22 there was something else that was -- the Dayton Accord that was also in
23 place that we had there.
24 Q. Okay. Now, when you say "Dayton Accord," are you sure about that
25 or are you thinking, perhaps, of some other agreement or accords that had
1 been signed at some point?
2 A. In fact, all the other agreements were availed to us, but this
3 one was specifically for a particular place.
4 Q. Okay. And we'll get to that in a little while.
5 Now, if we look at paragraph 2, I just have a couple of very
6 quick questions for you. There's a reference here, in paragraph 2, to "a
7 central Joint Commission shall be established," as well as "Regional
8 Joint Commissions." Just briefly, can you tell the Trial Chamber what
9 those commissions were.
10 A. Your Honour, for the Central Joint Commission, that was
11 encompassing all areas, and the meeting point -- the meeting point was to
12 be at the Zagreb
13 now, the whole of that region, that is Bosnia, itself, being a region,
14 and the others, you know, being also regions.
15 Q. And what was the purpose of setting up these regional joint
17 A. Your Honour, the aim of having these regional joint commissions
18 was to bring the warring factions together. It was meant to address the
19 issues that each side was raising at the regional level to make sure that
20 they understand why -- you know, what would bring them together and what
21 can make them fight, so that they can reduce what can make them apart so
22 that they can be able to come back to the original situation that was
23 there where they were living in peace.
24 MR. THAYER: If we can go to the next page, please. I want to
25 look at paragraph 6 very quickly.
1 Q. We can see here that paragraph 6 provides that:
2 "The parties agree to comply immediately and fully with all
3 existing agreements, including ..."
4 And I note here that there is a specific reference to the 8 May
5 1993 Srebrenica and Zepa Agreement. That is the agreement that
6 General Tolimir showed you last week.
7 Sir, is this what you meant when you said that the cease-fire
8 agreement that you were operating under was all-encompassing and included
9 the demilitarisation agreement?
10 A. Your Honour, this is what I meant. This is what we were using,
11 and it encompassed all those other agreements.
12 MR. THAYER: Your Honour, the Prosecution would tender 65 ter
13 6554. It is not on the Prosecution's Rule 65 ter list of exhibits, it's
14 not something that, frankly, we thought was going to be an issue in the
15 case, but it became one. So I've notified the Defence of our intent to
16 use this last week, and I would, number 1, move to add it to the
17 Prosecution's Rule 65 ter list orally and, number 2, tender it at this
18 time should number 1 be granted.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, is there any objection?
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have an objection.
21 When I was examining the witness, I asked him about 1993. This
22 document is from 1994. It was drafted on the 23rd of December, 1994
23 That's when it was drafted, and it was signed on the 31st of December,
24 1994, and entered into force on the 1st of January of 1995. The Defence
25 is not opposed to it being admitted because it shows that the territory
1 controlled by the VRS was fired upon from the enclaves. When I wanted to
2 use it, I spoke about 1993; namely, the 8th of May, the agreement on the
3 demilitarisation and the protected zones.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I take it that you are not opposing the motion of
5 the Prosecution. Leave is granted, and it will be marked for
6 identification, pending translation, because I think there is no B/C/S
7 translation, although I think such a document must have a translation.
8 But it's not in e-court.
9 Please carry on -- no, one moment.
10 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 6554 will be Exhibit P1011, marked for
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now go ahead, please.
13 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 Now, I'm sure everybody will be excited to hear that we need to
15 go back to looking at a map on this issue of the OP in the village of
16 Lozina. I think we need to get a little better orientated as to where
17 exactly in this enclave the OP was, and I have some documents I would
18 like to go through with you to hopefully shed some light on that issue,
20 May we see 5D -- I beg your pardon, P996, please. That is one of
21 Colonel Kingori's note-books. I believe it's been MFI'd. There is no
22 B/C/S translation of it as yet, but I will just simply read the short
23 portions that I will be calling Colonel Kingori's attention to.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.
25 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think it would be
1 good if Mr. Thayer were to explain on what grounds he is using this
2 document, because he hasn't used it so far. To which part of the
3 cross-examination will his re-examination refer?
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Chamber would like to hear that as well.
5 MR. THAYER: We will see very soon, Mr. President, that this
6 note-book refers specifically to the very meetings that General Tolimir
7 questioned Colonel Kingori about concerning the OP construction in the
8 area of Lozina. I think we'll see that the dates of the meetings
9 reflected in this note-book are contemporaneous with the documents which
10 General Tolimir showed Colonel Kingori, and I intend to use this
11 note-book and a couple of short passages, along with some other
12 documents, hopefully to establish for the Trial Chamber, with
13 Colonel Kingori, exactly where this OP was in the enclave. Because as it
14 stands, we just have some reference on a map that we can't connect to
15 anything geographic that helps us, so that is the relevance. We, I don't
16 think --
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for this explanation. That is
19 Please go ahead.
20 MR. THAYER:
21 Q. Now, do you recognise what this is, sir, in front of you on the
23 A. Your Honour, I do. This is a copy of my document, my note-book.
24 Q. And during the course of your work as an UNMO, do you have any
25 idea how many note-books you used, went through, during your service?
1 A. Your Honour, I had two note-books, and I just managed to salvage
2 this one. The other one was a bit -- a bit strong, and I feared, during
3 my exit from the enclave, it might endanger my life, so I destroyed that
4 one. This one, I had to change -- you can see the name up there. That
5 was my name I had put there. I had to rub that so that in case I'm
6 caught with it by the BSA, they do not harass me.
7 Q. Okay. And when you're referring to something that's been rubbed,
8 can you just circle that just so we can make a record of what you're
9 referring to, sir? And then we'll just save this page and move on.
10 Okay, we've got some abstract art on the screen at the moment. I
11 don't know if we can get the document back.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We need the pen mode. Try it again.
13 THE WITNESS: [Marks]. That's it, sir.
14 MR. THAYER: Okay. Thank you, Colonel.
15 Now let's, if we could, just save that and move to the next page,
16 please. And the Prosecution would tender whatever that document number
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think it is saved now, and you may move to the
20 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit P1012.
21 MR. THAYER:
22 Q. Now, you referred to --
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If you want to use additional pages of that
24 document, they will be then under this number, P1012.
25 MR. THAYER: Okay. Thank you, Mr. President.
1 And let's --
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I have to correct myself. This is just this
3 marked page with this number, and we will see how many further pages you
4 will have marked.
5 MR. THAYER: If we may just move one page further, please.
6 Q. Now, sir, these note-books that you used, did you use them
7 interchangeably, that is, pick up one note-book at any given time, or did
8 you fill one up and then use the other one?
9 A. Your Honour, I was interchanging.
10 MR. THAYER: Okay. And if we could have the next page, please.
11 It's page 3 in e-court.
12 Q. Okay. Focusing at the entry at the upper left-hand corner of the
13 screen, do you see an entry that bears the date of 28 April 1995?
14 A. Yes, Your Honour, I can see it.
15 Q. Okay. And do you see the heading where it says "New OP K, BiH
17 A. Yes, I can see it, sir.
18 Q. Okay. And can you tell us what the line underneath that says, if
19 you just read that into the record? It looks like "Obscured by some"
21 A. Your Honour, it reads:
22 "Obscured by some hills."
23 Q. Okay. And the next line, if you could just read that into the
24 record, please.
25 A. Your Honour, it says:
1 "It should have been passed by a Regional Joint Command -- or
2 Commission, the RJC meeting.
3 Q. And does that Regional Joint Commission refer to the commissions
4 you just told us about a few minutes ago that were referred to in the
5 cease-fire agreement?
6 A. Yes, Your Honour, it directly refers to that.
7 Q. Okay. And we see the next line a notation:
8 "Forty-eight hours to remove it. DutchBat OP to remain."
9 And then there's a reference:
10 "Control of movement to Zepa," and you have in parentheses
11 "Carter Agreement."
12 Can you explain what that means for the Trial Chamber, please.
13 A. Your Honour, what this means is that DutchBat said that -- you
14 know, were told to have it removed in 48 hours, but they insisted that
15 the OP was to remain. And then there's this control of movement to Zepa,
16 where we are referring -- the reference is on the Carter Agreement, and
17 that -- what it says is that there had to be control of the movement as
18 indicated in the Carter Agreement. I don't know whether you have it.
19 Q. Okay. And when we see this reference to the Carter Agreement,
20 was that the agreement you were referring to when you mentioned the
22 A. Your Honour, this is exactly the one I was referring to.
23 Q. And if you could just read the next line, please, sir, for us.
24 A. The next line says that:
25 "The next meeting was to be on 29th at 1000 hours, Bravo."
1 That is the following day.
2 Q. And, in fact, if we look one line down, we see an entry for the
3 29th of April. And right underneath that date, you've written "OP K" and
4 some numbers. Can you tell us what those numbers are?
5 A. Your Honour, this is the grid reference that is used by the
6 military to locate a particular point. So it's very easy to locate it on
7 the map using this grid reference.
8 Q. And in the terminology being used by DutchBat at the time, would
9 you have referred to OP K verbally as "OP K" or would it have had a NATO
10 alphabet name that you would have used?
11 A. Your Honour, the way we have these OPs, we never mention it
12 directly as OP K, E, or whatever. We just pronounce it the way,
13 militarily, they are pronounced; that is -- like this one is "Kilo."
14 Q. Okay. We see some more notations that you've taken down, and I
15 would ask you just to take a couple of minutes before the break, and
16 maybe that will take us into the break. If you could just read this
17 entry for the 29th of April. It goes on to the middle of the next page
18 and beyond, but you can stop about halfway through the next side where
19 you have an entry for deputy commander, DutchBat. If you could just take
20 a moment to refresh your recollection, and then maybe we can pick up
21 after the break, sir.
22 A. Yes, sir, I've read it.
23 MR. THAYER: Maybe I can just slip in one question before the
24 break, if I could, Mr. President.
25 Q. Sir --
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please.
2 MR. THAYER:
3 Q. Sir, my question, generally, first is: Having read these entries
4 for the 28th and 29th of April, does this refresh your recollection as to
5 whether the events described in your notes here are the same events as
6 those that you were speaking about when you were answering
7 General Tolimir's questions previously in your testimony?
8 A. In fact, it does, it refreshes my mind, and I can say this is how
9 it was.
10 MR. THAYER: Okay. And then we'll pick up there after the break.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
12 We must have the second break now, and we will resume quarter
13 past 6.00.
14 --- Recess taken at 5.48 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 6.17 p.m.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. Thayer.
17 Mr. Tolimir.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before Mr. Thayer resumes his
19 examination, a moment ago, on page 70 -- or, rather, page 69, he said:
20 "Is this what you said in answer to Mr. Tolimir?"
21 Can we have a reference, please? What was it that the witness
22 told me in relation to the engineering works on the observation post?
23 What is it that the witness told me? He did not tell me anything,
24 really. Thank you.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
1 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I think we can all remember, and
2 I can sift through the record and find the exact page and line
3 citation -- I don't have it at my finger-tips -- but I think the witness
4 was quite clear that he recalled some such -- a dispute that arose, and
5 that was the point at which he asked General Tolimir repeatedly if he
6 could see a map so that he could be sure that they were talking about
7 one-and-the-same set of events. That is what I am talking about, and I
8 believe that everybody can recall that series of questions. And it
9 spanned several pages.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, is that in dispute?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is, because I showed the map and
12 the location to the witness, and still he could not recall the events
13 from the meeting in Loznja and what it was that the chief of mission,
14 Romilton, was to inform about or report about. And I even asked him if
15 he had reported on it or not. Please bear in mind that this is the sort
16 of answers that I received to my question.
17 I have all due respect for Mr. Thayer and his re-examination. I
18 just want the record to be clear on this. Thank you.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And I think everybody noticed that Mr. Kingori
20 didn't recall the location, the village of Loznja
21 testimony in this respect, but that he talked about the observation post
22 and the dispute between the parties about the location, if it would be
23 withdrawn or not. So I think there's no dispute on that, and everybody
24 can read the transcript of last week.
25 Mr. Thayer, please carry on.
1 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 Q. Okay, Colonel, you've had a chance to read the entries that are
3 on the screen here. I want to turn your attention to the portion where
4 you've written -- and this is on the right side of the document in the
5 upper right-hand quadrant:
6 "OPs constructed in the enclave pulls --" and you've put "pulls"
7 in quotes -- "the BSA closer to the enclave, meaning BiH is losing
8 territory. If the new OP is continued, BSA will move closer to the OP,
9 meaning closer inside the enclave."
10 Now, I think you've already touched on this complaint earlier in
11 your testimony, but can you tell the Trial Chamber, number 1 -- I just
12 want to establish for the record: These notes that you're looking at,
13 were these taken by you contemporaneous at the time of these meetings?
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Answer, please.
15 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, it was. I wrote these notes when we
16 were in the process of the meeting. And if I may carry on to talk
17 further about this, it's that the observation posts were to be
18 constructed and had actually been constructed at the cease-fire line.
19 This was to make sure that the UNPROFOR had a proper view of both sides.
20 You can be able to see the BSA side and also the Srebrenica side, that
21 is, the Muslim side, without compromising the use of the cease-fire line
22 by any other party other than for UNPROFOR. So -- but in this case, you
23 can see the -- the OP was to be moved slightly inside, and that was the
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before you put the next question: I'm very
1 sorry, and I apologise. In the transcript, it is written that I said:
2 "Answer, please," but that was not my intention. Your answer, please.
3 In this way, it looks very unpolite. I didn't want to be unpolite.
4 THE WITNESS: Understood, sir.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please carry on, Mr. Thayer.
6 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Okay. We are done with the note-book. And, Your Honour, at this
8 time the Prosecution would renew its offer of this document into evidence
9 both for the purposes for which I've already articulated, that it was
10 shown to the witness during a prior trial, there were portions read from
11 it by various Defence counsel, but also now because the witness has
12 specifically testified concerning these entries on this page. We can --
13 I think it would just be easier to tender -- admit the whole document,
14 and the Trial Chamber will have this available and will also have the
15 remainder of the note-book available for its review as it's reviewing the
16 prior testimony.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you indicate how many pages this document
19 MR. THAYER: If my recollection serves me correctly, it's
20 approximately 27 pages in total. I can count quickly.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, can the pages that
23 were presented here during re-examination be tendered only? Since the
24 document has not been translated, I have no idea of its contents. We can
25 see that there's handwriting, that there were additional notes made, so
1 can you kindly only admit the pages that were shown here? And as for the
2 rest, if the Prosecutor is interested in anything else, he should deal
3 with it in his examination here.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, will this document be translated in
6 MR. THAYER: Yes, it will, Mr. President.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, in the meantime, can we let the next
9 witness -- may we release him, please?
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think it was not very likely that he can
11 commence his testimony. I absolutely agree.
12 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, there will be a translation of the
14 full document. Is there any objection to receive it or mark it pending
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Initially, we said that we were not opposed to the document being
18 used. All at once, it so turned out that the document would be tendered
19 in its entirety. And it is a manuscript. It would take us at least two
20 days to read through to be able to give our objections, if any. So we
21 don't see the need for it to be tendered as a whole. Besides, we don't
22 know where the note-book was during the war and what sort of entries were
23 made there. All these questions can only be answered once we compare the
24 note-book with UNPROFOR documents which are kept in Zagreb or elsewhere.
25 Thank you.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, the Chamber will receive this
2 document, but mark it pending translation, because this witness is the
3 author. He identified this document as his own, and, therefore, we are
4 all in the same position quite often that we don't know the whole content
5 of a document, but we receive it into evidence, and everybody is -- it is
6 up to you and to the other party and to the Chamber to give weight to
7 that and to come back if there's a need for that.
8 Please carry on, Mr. Thayer.
9 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 May we have Exhibit P00104 in e-court, please. And we'll be
11 looking for page 8 in e-court, please.
12 And if we could move the image down, please. Perfect. Thank
14 Q. Colonel, please take a moment to re-familiarise yourself with
15 this map, to digest it. And when you've had a chance to take a good look
16 at it, let me know, and I'll just put a couple of questions to you about
18 A. Yeah, I'm through, sir.
19 Q. Okay. Do you see a series of letters, beginning at, say, 10.00
20 on this exhibit with the letter A, and then roughly 9.00 the letter B, C,
21 D, and so forth, that encircle Srebrenica? Do you see this?
22 A. Yes, Your Honour, I see them.
23 Q. Do they correspond to anything that you recognise that you can
24 tell the Court about, in terms of what those letters represent?
25 A. Your Honour, these are the observation posts belonging to
1 UNPROFOR, and they were arranged in that order. But you can see some of
2 them do not follow the sequence Alpha, Bravo, Charlie. Some in other
3 areas, but the sequences is proper, we knew where they were.
4 Q. I want to draw your attention to the letter K at roughly 6.00 on
5 this exhibit. That would be OP Kilo. Can you tell the Trial Chamber
6 whether the location of this OP on this map corresponds to your
7 recollection of its location in July 1995?
8 A. Your Honour, it does.
9 Q. And just to tie the last exhibit to this exhibit: Is this the
10 OP Kilo that was referred to in the passage from the note-book that you
11 just looked at a few moments ago?
12 A. Your Honour, it is the same one.
13 Q. Now, we're going to look at, again, the map that was marked by
14 Colonel Franken when he was here before. And I don't think there's any
15 dispute that he drew a triangle, and we'll see that triangle shortly,
16 that had its legs beginning at the locations of OPs Bravo and Charlie.
17 You'll see that map again, as I said, in a moment, but do you recall
18 seeing that map marked by Colonel Franken, sir?
19 A. Your Honour, I've not seen it.
20 Q. Okay. Well, maybe --
21 A. I don't remember.
22 Q. Maybe it will ring a bell when we put it up.
23 A. Yes, maybe.
24 MR. THAYER: Then let us go to D115, please.
25 Q. We're looking at the exhibit you marked on Thursday, I think it
1 was. And last Thursday -- and this was at transcript page 5441 --
2 General Tolimir suggested to you that the markings on the left-hand side
3 of this exhibit, where you see the numbers 1 and 3 in a rough triangle
4 shape or an arrowhead, depending on how you look at it, were made by
5 Colonel Franken. Do you remember that, sir? Do you remember now seeing
6 this map and marking it yourself?
7 A. Yes, I do, sir.
8 MR. THAYER: Okay. And if we could zoom back to where we were
9 before, please, so we can see the whole exhibit. Thank you very much.
10 Q. This area defined by this triangle that Colonel Franken has
11 drawn, do you recall whether it had a nickname of any kind when you were
12 serving in Srebrenica?
13 A. Your Honour, this is the area that we used to call
14 Bandera Triangle, I think.
15 Q. Okay. And when General Tolimir showed you this exhibit on
16 Thursday, he specifically zoomed in on this Bandera Triangle area -- and
17 this was at transcript page 5542 -- and he suggested to you at the time
18 that there was a corridor from Zepa to this triangle area, but you
19 corrected him and said that the only corridor you recall was to the east,
20 and that's when you marked the "1" and "2" in green. Do you recall that,
21 and do you see your markings on this exhibit, please?
22 A. Yes, Your Honour, I do.
23 Q. And again today General Tolimir again referred to
24 Colonel Franken's testimony about being stopped by a hundred soldiers
25 when he was talking to you about the Lozina village. Do you remember
1 that, sir?
2 A. Yes, I do, sir.
3 MR. THAYER: Okay. Now, you're going to have to be patient with
4 me for a second. I'd like to keep this map on the screen. As we all
5 know, the legibility is not that good. What I'd like to do is show the
6 witness a full-sized map that is legible. Mr. Gajic has already seen --
7 I placed him on notice of my intent to use it. And then I'd like to ask
8 the witness to look at the full-sized map and then make some marks on the
9 screen, which is actually the same thing as the big map. These are the
10 same exhibits. The only difference is that we have this portion
11 represented here on the screen. Unfortunately, I have to use the full
12 size because that's the only way you can read anything. And if the Court
13 pleases, I can hand it up to the Court after I question the witness about
14 one thing.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please proceed in that way, with the assistance
16 of the court usher.
17 MR. THAYER: For the record, Mr. President, what we have here is
18 the full-sized version of P107, and it is from this map that what we see
19 on the screen now as D115 has been excerpted and used previously.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But the original without the markings we see here
21 on the screen, yes.
22 MR. THAYER: Correct, Mr. President. It is an unmarked map that
23 is in e-court as P107.
24 Q. Colonel, you might have to get your nose really close to the map,
25 but do you see a number of locations that are marked on that map around
1 Srebrenica with the notation "UN," with the initials "UN" circled? So do
2 you see a number of notations with "UN" written down and circled?
3 A. Yes, Your Honour, I can see them.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have been without interpretation
6 for quite a while. Thank you.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In that case, you should have indicated that
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It was my mistake. I was pressing
10 the buttons.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That can happen to everybody in the courtroom.
12 Next time, please indicate that immediately after you have realised it.
13 Please carry on, Mr. Thayer.
14 MR. THAYER:
15 Q. Okay, sir. Looking at the full-size version of this map, do you
16 see one of those locations marked "UN" in a circle which corresponds to
17 where OP Kilo was located in July of 1995? You previously identified
18 that as being at approximately 6.00 on the map that we saw.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This last comment was not necessary, Mr. Thayer.
20 MR. THAYER: Forgive me, Mr. President.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, I can see it.
22 MR. THAYER:
23 Q. Now, can you, based on looking at the full-size map, look on your
24 computer screen and see if you can identify that same location on your
25 computer screen. And if you can, can you please circle that and write a
1 "K" next to it.
2 A. I request I use the grid references.
3 Q. Okay, unfortunately, that is a VRS map which doesn't use the NATO
4 grid references. Those aren't NATO grid references, Colonel, that you're
5 looking at. And if you really -- if you can't find the OP Kilo on that,
6 that's fine. We can -- we can do it another way with another witness.
7 Again, if you really need the grid references, that's okay. We don't --
8 we don't need to go any further with the exercise if you need the grid
9 references to find OP Kilo. It's not a big deal. We don't want you to
11 A. Your Honour, without -- just a minute.
12 Your Honour, I'm not very sure. Without the grid references,
13 it's very difficult to locate.
14 Q. That's fine, Colonel.
15 A. Your Honour, and we have them in the note-book, and I think they
16 are the same.
17 Q. Yes. The grid references you have recorded in your note-book.
18 Unfortunately, this map is not a NATO map, so the grid references are a
19 little different. But we can save that for a different witness.
20 Let me just try one last thing with you and see if this will help
21 at all. And I don't think there's going to be any dispute about this.
22 Do you see on your screen the numbers "4" and "5" that were
23 written by Colonel Franken?
24 A. Yes, Your Honour, I can see them.
25 Q. Okay. And do you see, on the full-size map, a location -- one of
1 the locations marked "UN"?
2 A. Yes, Your Honour, I can see them.
3 Q. Okay. On the big map, can you read the name of any village that
4 is located near that marking "UN" between numbers 4 and 5?
5 Unfortunately, we can't read it on the screen because it becomes
6 illegible. That's why I'm asking you to look on the big map to see if
7 you can read it. If you look at that location between where numbers 4
8 and 5 are marked, is there a name of a village marked next to that "UN"
10 A. Yes, Your Honour. One of them is Loznja [indicates], and the
11 other one is Busi [phoen] something, Busje [phoen].
12 Q. And can you look very closely at the full-sized map and spell
13 what you just pronounced as "Loznja"? If you can look as closely as you
14 can on that full-sized map and just spell out the location, please.
15 A. I spell: Lima-Oscar-Zulu-November-Juliet-Alpha.
16 Q. Okay. Now, for the last part, can you --
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic first.
18 MR. GAJIC: Mr. President, if the Bench should need a map, we
19 have a copy so you can follow what the witness is saying more easily.
20 I'm afraid I know this map by heart by now, so I think it will be more
21 useful to you so you may follow more easily.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That's a very kind offer, and the Chamber always
23 appreciates if the parties help each other, but I think it is sufficient
24 as it is at the moment.
25 Please carry on.
1 MR. THAYER:
2 Q. Now, sir, can you write that word, "Loznja," on the screen in
3 front of you where you see it on the full-sized map, as close as you can.
4 A. [Marks].
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. Just before where the "L" starts, that's where Lozina is. The
7 spelling is wrong.
8 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Colonel.
9 I think we're done with this exhibit on the screen, and if we
10 could, we would tender it at this point, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1013.
13 MR. THAYER: I thank everyone for their patience with that little
14 exercise, and I thank you, Witness.
15 Now, General Tolimir -- actually, again, Mr. President, we'd like
16 to tender this exhibit.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It is already received.
18 MR. THAYER: Oh, okay.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have the number.
20 MR. THAYER: I didn't pick that up. I apologise.
21 Q. Colonel, General Tolimir showed you some excerpts from video
22 transcripts of one of the Hotel Fontana meetings, in which General Mladic
23 made certain statements about the Muslims being free to choose where they
24 lived. And this was at transcript page 5488. I want to show you just a
25 couple of very brief video-clips as well and ask you to comment on them,
1 as the same way General Tolimir did. And the first is from P991. For
2 the record, that is V00-4458.
3 We are starting the video at 1 hour 59 minutes 33.8 seconds.
4 Do you have an image on your screen, sir, before we start rolling
5 the video?
6 A. Yes, I have it.
7 MR. THAYER: Okay. May we start rolling, please.
8 [Video-clip played]
9 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "General, after the liberation of
10 Srebrenica there are a couple of hundred thousand Muslim civilians. What
11 will happen to them?
12 "Well, I've received the representatives of this population here,
13 and they asked me to enable the civilians who want to leave this
14 territory to pass on to the territory controlled by the Muslims and
15 Croats. It wasn't our goal to fight the civilians or the UNPROFOR
16 forces, and we have organised means of transport."
17 MR. THAYER:
18 Q. Now, sir, we're looking at 2 hours and 14.4 seconds, where
19 General Mladic looks at the camera and says:
20 "Our army wasn't aiming to fight the civilians or the UNPROFOR
22 Sir, based on your experience in Srebrenica town during the
23 attack, and then at Potocari, how would you characterise this statement
24 by General Mladic, based on your experience?
25 A. Your Honour, to me, this was just a PR issue, wanting to portray
1 that he was courteous to the civilians and to UNPROFOR, whereas, on the
2 contrary, he was not courteous to the Muslims, that is, the people living
3 in the enclave, in that if he was, as he wants us to understand at this
4 particular moment, then he could not have shelled the enclave that
5 heavily. Secondly, he could have continued the line -- the negotiation
6 line that we had been told by Vukovic that they might -- I mean, the best
7 thing would be, if they cannot be able to leave, that they can discuss it
8 further. And I remember mentioning something close to that. That is
9 saying that there was still a line for negotiations. But then he opted
10 to take the military option. This military option was very heavy on the
11 civilians and also on UNPROFOR, in that the OPs which were manned by
12 DutchBat were shelled, some of them were taken hostage, and stayed,
13 I think, overnight before they could be seen -- before they could be
14 allowed back to Potocari. They lost their equipment and they could not
15 get them back.
16 Now, on the side of the Muslims, there still remains questions
17 that maybe somebody one day will answer. Why was the enclave shelled
18 that heavily by people who later on claimed that they wanted -- they did
19 not want to cause maximum casualties? My interpretation, as a military
20 officer, is that where you do not want to cause maximum casualties, you
21 go slow. In fact, you target the main areas. Here, we're talking about
22 the real areas, like logistics or even the weapons, that is, where they
23 have their arms, that is where you can target so that you can be able
24 achieve your exit. But this is not what was done.
25 As shown in my report, the shelling was heavy on the civilian
1 side; that is, in the village of Srebrenica
2 place called the Swedish Shelter village near Potocari and all the other
3 surrounding areas where most of the civilians were. This was actually an
4 indication that the target was the people -- that is, the Muslim people
5 of the enclave.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Mr. Thayer said that I used a part of the words that Mr. Mladic
9 said at Fontana
10 those meetings. But after that meeting on the 12th, and the agreement
11 reached between the civilian authorities and the VRS on this agreement,
12 what he's showing here happened after that. So for the sake of fairness,
13 he should only be showing what I used and not anything that came
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In fact, I don't see the point.
16 We have seen this document before and also during
17 cross-examination, and, therefore, please carry on, Mr. Thayer.
18 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
19 May we see P293, please.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And I hope very much, for the benefit of the
21 witness, if you could finish the whole evidence today.
22 MR. THAYER: It is my last -- my last topic, Mr. President.
23 Q. Sir, the last document I want to show you, as you can see on the
24 right-hand -- I think it's on the right of your screen, this is an
25 intercepted radio conversation between General Tolimir and
1 General Janvier. It's dated the 9th of July, and the time is 2310 hours
2 that evening.
3 Now, I want to turn your attention to the very bottom of this
4 document, where General Tolimir, who is designated by the letter T, says:
5 "The general's probably aware where General Mladic is now, and he
6 isn't here, so I am sorry that they can't talk personally. I think it
7 might be possible tomorrow, around 10.00 to 11.00, for General Janvier to
8 talk to General Mladic. Next, our ..."
9 If we could go to the next page.
10 "... army has very good relations with all the members of
11 UNPROFOR as well as with the Muslim civilian population."
12 Now, Colonel, at approximately 2300 hours on the night of 9 July,
13 where were you?
14 A. Your Honour, I was in the DutchBat compound.
15 Q. And I don't think there's any dispute that you've told us that
16 you were there because the shelling had become so bad and you felt so
17 threatened that you left Srebrenica; is that correct?
18 A. That's true, sir. It was impossible to continue staying in the
19 PTT building in Srebrenica town.
20 Q. And you've told us about the events from 6 to 9 July, and they're
21 in your reports. I won't belabour that for the Trial Chamber. But tell
22 the Trial Chamber: You were there. Based on your experience in
23 Srebrenica town between the 6th of July and the 9th of July, how would
24 you characterise this statement from General Tolimir, speaking to
25 General Janvier, that the VRS has very good relations with all the
1 members of UNPROFOR as well as with the Muslim civilian population?
2 A. Your Honour, to me, this is a misrepresentation of fact, in that
3 definitely the BSA did not have a good relationship with the Muslims,
4 because if they had, they would not have shelled them the way they did,
5 they would not have displaced them from the enclave, they would not have
6 forced them to become IDPs living in the DutchBat compound and outside in
7 open air during the night, when it's very cold, and during the day, when
8 it was very hot, and also killing some of their family members. On the
9 side of UNPROFOR, I still do not believe that there was any good
10 relationship, and especially when you consider the fact that DutchBat had
11 lost some of their equipment, had lost some of their members who were
12 taken as prisoners and later released, and also considering that the
13 amount of time that takes to form an OP, and then that OP is destroyed by
14 the people who you are discussing with much, much earlier, because we
15 used to hold meetings, and who actually indicated they would do exactly
16 that, and they have gone even further to ensure that they fulfilled that
17 commitment, really, this was not a good relationship at all, and, to me,
18 it was a misrepresentation of facts.
19 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Colonel.
20 I have no further questions.
21 Questioned by the Court:
22 JUDGE NYAMBE: I just have one question for you, Mr. Kingori.
23 How many UN observers were involved towards the fall of
24 Srebrenica and during the fall of Srebrenica?
25 A. Your Honour, initially we were six military observers in
1 Srebrenica, but three of them were unable to get -- were allowed to get
2 out of the enclave during the normal rotation. We used to get -- after
3 you work continuously for that days, you're allowed to go out of the
4 enclave and come back after six days, but this time the three had been
5 denied permission by the BSA to go out until it reached a point whereby
6 the three of them were to go out at the same time. So they were allowed
7 at that time, but no replacement was allowed for these three. So we
8 remained, three of us, in the enclave.
9 During the course of our stay there, just towards when this
10 onslaught on the enclave started, one of our observers, that is,
11 Major Andre De Haan, from Holland
12 the DutchBat hospital in Potocari. An operation was done and all those
13 other things, so he was unable to help us as an observer because he could
14 not come back to Srebrenica PTT building, where we were housed.
15 So when the onslaught started, we were just two of us, me,
16 Colonel Kingori, then the major, and Major David Tetteh from Ghana
17 we were just the two of us during that time of the onslaught, but later
18 on when we went to DutchBat compound, when it became very difficult for
19 us to operate from the PTT building, we met Major Andre De Haan, who
20 could at least move slightly within that compound, and we used him. So
21 at that time, there were three of us.
22 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you very much.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And, indeed, thank you very much, Mr. Kingori,
24 for your patience, for your attendance here, for the assistance you were
25 able to give us, and we were all very grateful especially for your
1 patience, that you stayed so many days in The Hague. Now you are free to
2 return to your normal activities, and, again, thank you very much, and
3 all the best for you, personally.
4 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, if you allow me just to say thank you
5 very much also. And even when I stayed over the weekend, it was not that
6 hard because I knew the procedures of the Court had to be followed, so
7 there is no ill feelings from my side, sir. I am doing my work, sir.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That is very nice. Thank you very much.
9 We adjourn for today and resume tomorrow with the next witness at
10 quarter past 2.00.
11 We adjourn.
12 [The witness withdrew]
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.06 p.m.
14 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 21st day of
15 September, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.