1 Wednesday, 22 September 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon to everybody.
6 Mr. Vanderpuye, is the next witness ready? Which is in fact not
7 the next witness.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, good afternoon to you, Mr. President. Good
9 afternoon, Your Honours, and everybody.
10 The next witness is ready.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. He should be brought in, please.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon, Mr. Janc. Please sit down.
14 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: A long time ago, you have already been here in
16 this trial. And, therefore, I have to remind you that the affirmation to
17 tell the truth you made at the beginning of your testimony is still --
19 THE WITNESS: I understand, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And I understood the Prosecution that we are back
21 in examination-in-chief. And it's up to you, Mr. Vanderpuye, to examine
22 the witness.
23 Mr. Vanderpuye.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I apologise for the
1 [Prosecution counsel confer]
2 WITNESS: DUSAN JANC [Resumed]
3 Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye: [Continued]
4 Q. Good afternoon to you, Mr. Janc.
5 A. Good afternoon.
6 Q. We have to interrupt your cross-examination for some more direct
7 examination as you know. And what we plan to do today is to introduce
8 seven video-clips during the course of your testimony, as you also know.
9 Have you had an opportunity to review these videos?
10 A. Yes, indeed. I have had the opportunity to review all these
11 videos. Some of them during -- as a member of the team of the Srebrenica
12 investigation team, investigative team, and some of them even upon first
13 arrival at the OTP so in 2009.
14 Q. All right. Just for the record, Your Honours, these videos - and
15 I will show them - are P236, 65 ter 1396, 65 ter 5508, P681, 65 ter 2436,
16 5499, and 5498.
17 Mr. Janc, in the course of preparing for your testimony here
18 today and -- have you had an opportunity to determine the circumstances
19 under which the Prosecution came into possession of this video material?
20 Just generally, and we'll get into it more specifically a little bit
21 further on.
22 A. Yes. That's also true. Generally, I got familiarized myself
23 from -- with the -- with the background of information on how the
24 Prosecution obtained these videos, from which sources, when, and also
25 some authentic issues have been taken into consideration when preparing
1 for this testimony here. So, in general term, yes, I am aware --
2 Q. And can you tell us just --
3 A. -- of this information.
4 Q. -- generally what types of documents or material you reviewed in
5 relation to that effort.
6 A. Yes, since most of the stuff, we will be viewing during my
7 testimony is -- was obtained by the authorities -- official authorities
8 in the former Yugoslavia
9 authorities, and they provided us with the accompanying documentation on
10 how they obtained these videos in first place, from which places, from
11 which locations, from which individuals. And this is first set of
12 documents I have reviewed.
13 Then for some of the videos, we -- there is particular one video
14 which we obtained from -- from a confidential source, and in relation to
15 that one, I -- I reviewed information or statement which was provided by
16 this confidential source in relation to that video. Also, a declaration
17 from investigator was drafted in relation to that video, so this is the
18 third source of this documentation which I reviewed.
19 And also, different statements from -- from individuals involved,
20 involved or -- yeah, which we can see on the videos, and we'll discuss
21 every -- every single one in detail when we -- we watch them.
22 Q. All right then. What I'd like to do then is I'd like to get
23 started, and we have a video which we have indicated here as 12 July in
24 Vlasenica. Are you familiar with that one?
25 A. Yes. And this is our first video on our list today which we will
1 reviewing, yes.
2 Q. And before we play it, can you just give us a little bit of
3 context. Tell us who is featured in it and perhaps you can tell us a
4 little bit about when the events depicted in it occurred.
5 A. Yes. What we will be watching today is just an excerpt of the
6 longer video which was -- which the OTP obtained in 2009, so we have just
7 made a video-clip of some portion from that video. We will see mainly
8 the speech of the General Milenko Zivanovic, who was at that time still
9 the Drina Corps commander. And it is about the celebration of the Saint
10 Patrons' Day on the 12th of July 1995, and this celebration is taking
11 place at the Zvonko Bajagic's apartment in Vlasenica. Zvonko Bajagic, he
12 was a second lieutenant at that time for Drina Corps logistic -- logistic
13 department, and he has been hosting this lunch. And before the lunch
14 took place, General Zivanovic has made a speech regarding the recent
15 events in relation to the fall of Srebrenica. Also, we will see on the
16 video Zvonko Bajagic and the priest Vasilije Kacavenda. At the dinner
17 there were also other -- other members of the VRS involved, present, and
18 we can discuss this later on.
19 Q. I thank you very much for that introduction. I guess we'd like
20 to go ahead and play the video now.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before we do that, let me put a question to the
22 witness, please.
23 You have said we made a video-clip of some portion of that video.
24 Could you tell us a little bit about the source from where you were able
25 to obtain this video? If that is possible.
1 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, I can, and when preparing for
2 this testimony, the plan was that we discuss the sources for each and
3 single one, every single video when we reviewed the video, but can I tell
4 you about the source already.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It would be helpful for the Chamber but I think
6 for the other participants as well to know in advance the source of the
7 single video we are looking at.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: No problem. I will do it that way. Thank you
9 very much, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE:
12 Q. Okay, Mr. Janc, could you tell us then specifically about the
13 source of the video that we're about to see.
14 A. Yes. The OTP obtained this video from the Serbian authorities in
15 March of 2009, exactly on 27 of March 2009, and it came -- it came from
16 the Serbian MUP, which seized this VHS tape during the search conducted
17 on 4th of December, 2008, at the premises of the General Ratko Mladic's
18 son apartment in Belgrade
19 investigator Tomasz Blaszczyk went down to Belgrade and obtained this
20 particular videotape from Serbian authorities.
21 Q. All right. If I could just show you 65 ter 6577.
22 [Prosecution counsel confer]
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wish to say for the record which
25 Serb authority are meant, whether those in the Republika Srpska or those
1 in Serbia
2 So I would like that to be clear for the record, and there are
3 several MUPs too.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed, Mr. Tolimir, I am of the same opinion.
5 That would been one of my questions as well.
6 Could you clarify that.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: I actually have the document which I will show
8 Mr. Janc, Mr. President. I think the document speaks for itself and will
9 clarify the issue.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, that would be helpful.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE:
12 Q. The first document that I have, though, on the screen, and that
13 is 65 ter 6577, can you tell us what that is, Mr. Janc?
14 A. Yes. This is information report which was prepared by my
15 colleague investigator Blaszczyk in relation to the -- how he received
16 this -- this -- this tape from the Serbian authorities. And we can see
17 here that he was in Belgrade
18 Office of the Serbian War Crime Prosecutor. So these are authorities of
19 the Republic of Serbia
20 Q. Now, I don't -- we don't have a --
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you please repeat the document number. It
22 was not recorded.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Oh, thank you, Mr. President. It was
24 65 ter 6577.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: And I believe we don't have a translation of
2 this document.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And we have to correct the number on page 5, line
4 14, then there is a wrong number recorded.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: For this document, you mean.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yeah.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Nyambe has a question.
9 JUDGE NYAMBE: Yes. To the witness, and maybe to Mr. Vanderpuye
10 eventually, page 5, line 11:
11 "And, yes, on 27th of March, 2009, our investigator
12 Tomasz Blaszczyk went down to Belgrade
13 from Serbian authorities."
14 My question to you is what is your connection, Witness to this
15 document. Since it's the other investigator who went to collect it from
17 THE WITNESS: Perhaps to this document I have no direct
18 connection, but before that we obtained from Serbian authorities the
19 electronic version of the documents and VHS tapes which were digitalised
20 by the Serbian authorities in the meantime, and we received this
21 electronic material at the end of the actually -- in the middle of
22 March 2009, and we reviewed all this stuff initially here which was on
23 DVDs, and we have made a list of the stuff of the highest priority for
24 the Office of the Prosecution, and that's why Thomas Blaszczyk went down
25 to Belgrade
1 Serbian War Crime Prosecutor's office.
2 Later on, they provided us, I mean Serbian authorities, with all
3 the other additional stuff which was also seized during the search of
4 General Mladic's apartment in Belgrade
5 because we will see on the page which follows that Mr. Blaszczyk explains
6 what -- which tape -- which tapes he received or he obtained at this
7 point in time, and I can say that I reviewed all these tapes, and I
8 familiarised myself as a member of the Srebrenica team, so that's how I
9 see the connection to this particular document.
10 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.
11 THE WITNESS: This is just, in my view, to be meant to show the
12 chain of custody how did we get the material from the source and how we
13 handled it here at the OTP.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, carry on, please.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 If we could just go briefly to the first page of this document.
17 I see that we're on the second page.
18 Q. On the first page of the document, and I did note that we didn't
19 have a translation of it but I wanted to read the header into it so that
20 Mr. Tolimir is fully apprised much its contents. It's entitled:
21 "International Criminal Tribunal for the Prosecution of Persons
22 Responsible for Serious Violations of International Law Committed in the
23 Territory of the Former Yugoslavia
24 report. It's dated 1st April 2009
25 "chain of custody of the documents (notebooks and VHS tapes received from
1 the Office of the War Crimes Prosecutor in Belgrade Serb)."
2 And in the first paragraph it indicates that on 27 March 2009 in
4 handed over to me, that's Mr. Blaszczyk, which were seized by the Serbian
5 MUP on 4 December 2008
7 On the second page, if we can go briefly, I think the witness can
8 then explain what he was referring to about the circumstances or the
9 materials, I should say, relevant to the videotape which is P236 that
10 we're go doing play that Mr. Blaszczyk received.
11 So if you could just direct us to the paragraphs that concern the
12 videotapes that we're going to see, beginning the one that we will start
13 with, P236, given the date of 12 July 1995. Do you see that reference in
14 this document?
15 A. Yes, I can see that on this page. It's actually paragraph 8 or
16 the last paragraph on this page. And you can see, for example, what --
17 what -- what is the content on the tape itself. And here is written
18 everything what was on that tape. And as I already mentioned, we have --
19 we have just extracted the portion which we are interested in, which
20 is -- yeah. You can see the fourth line in this paragraph where it says
21 "General Zivanovic made a speech related to the liberation of
23 He said that at 1620 hours on the previous day, they put Serbian
24 flag on Serbian church in Srebrenica.
25 And then later on you -- you have explained what other contents
1 on this same VHS tapes are.
2 Towards the end of this paragraph, it is the fourth line from the
3 end, you can see the sentence which starts:
4 "This VHS tape was marked by Serbian MUP with number 97." On the
5 tape -- on the tape's label is written "A-54." And on the tape's box:
6 "Srebrenica, Snimljeno, 12th of July, 1995 ..." and so on.
7 So why is this important? Because we have also received from --
8 from the authorities of the Republic of Serbia
9 content on the -- on the videos. They have also reviewed all this
10 material and they have made, prepared a report on what can be seen on
11 these videos, and since many of those videotapes have been seized during
12 the search at the Mladic's premises, they were, I think, around 100
13 tapes. They were marked by these specific numbers. So this one was
14 marked as number 97, and -- yeah, you can see from the -- from the --
15 from the text here itself that it is -- it is dated 12th of July. The
16 events which are on the tape are taking place on 12 of July, 1995.
17 Q. While we're on the subject, I also wanted to refer you to
18 paragraph 7, and at paragraph 7 refers to a tape containing clips of a
19 military parade and it says here of setting up the manoeuvre brigade of
20 the Drina
21 you have an opportunity to review this entry in Mr. Blaszczyk's
22 information report and what can you -- if you have, what can you tell us
23 about it?
24 A. Yes, that's correct. I also reviewed this part of his report,
25 and also the VHS tape itself, and, yeah, when the reviewing this
1 paragraph I spotted one mistake Mr. Blaszczyk has made, and it is in
2 relation to the tape number, which is here number 28, but the correct
3 number should be 29. So, the VHS tape number 28 is related to the tape
4 under paragraph 6, the first paragraph on this page, and you can see that
5 he marked it or he put number 28 also for that tape in that paragraph.
6 So here it should be 29.
7 Q. Thank you for that.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I'd like to tender this document.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be marked for identification, pending
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'd like to have the witness shown 65 --
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: One moment, please.
13 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 6577 will be Exhibit P1016 marked for
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: I would like to the witness, please, shown 65
16 ter 6578.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would like to correct line 24. It's not -- the
18 words "pending translation" are missing.
19 Please carry on.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Q. Okay. We're go to have to go to page -- I think it should be 22
22 in the B/C/S. Anyway, it should be 65 ter ending 7841 -- I'm sorry, ERN
23 ending 7841. That's good. That's fine right here.
24 [Prosecution counsel confer]
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. If we can go -- can go to the next
1 page, please, in the B/C/S. One page following. And I think we'll be on
2 the same page.
3 [Prosecution counsel confer]
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: I understand we need the translation for
5 0677-7841. Now I see some head shaking going on over there.
6 Q. Mr. Janc, are you able to read this or ...
7 A. Yes, I can read this, perhaps rather slowly but I know what this
8 document is --
9 Q. Yes. Let's do it like that. Can you identify for us what this
10 document is.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: First we should remove the English text because
12 it is nothing related to the B/C/S version.
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, you're right. Thank you, Mr. President.
14 THE WITNESS: Yes. And we do have this English translation
15 because I have seen that one. But this is actually the report that I
16 have been testifying about, dated 3rd of February, 2009, prepared by the
17 Ministry of the Internal Affairs of the Republic of Serbia
18 content of the seized material with -- with Ratko Mladic's son apartment,
19 and this index where you can see labelled by numbers has been provided to
20 the OTP on 4th of February, 2009, so the day after this document, and at
21 that time they haven't provided us any -- any of the -- the tapes and any
22 of the stuff which was seized. Just that was information for us on what
23 they -- they seized.
24 Q. Thank you for that. And if we could go to page -- should be four
25 pages up.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now we have the translation.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. And if we could go to page 4 of the
3 translation, it should correspond to the -- to the B/C/S as well. Should
4 be ERN ending 7 -- 7844, I believe.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes. And I would like to make one remark because
6 we can see here DVD
7 this stuff when it was received or seized and then later on reviewed at
8 the MUP premises, was digitalised, and -- and that's why we see here on
10 such number, this number correspond to the number which was on the VHS
12 MR. VANDERPUYE:
13 Q. Thank you very much for that, Mr. Janc.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: If we could just go to the fourth page of the
15 translation, and I think it should correspond -- I think it should be the
16 fourth page also in the B/C/S.
17 Q. I want to direct your attention if I could to item number 20, and
18 we'll catch up in the B/C/S in a moment. I think we have it now.
19 Will you tell us a little bit about item number 20.
20 A. Yes. But the B/C/S is not the -- the correct page.
21 [Prosecution counsel confer]
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. Looks like we may have to go back 20
23 pages up, I think, in the B/C/S or so. It should be 7844, ERN.
24 Page 26? It's page 26 of the B/C/S.
25 [Prosecution counsel confer]
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Previous page, please.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Previous page. Yep. All right --
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now we need the English translation back. We had
4 it on this screen. It just disappeared.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. I think we've got it.
6 Q. Thanks very much, Mr. Janc. Can you tell us about item number
8 A. Yes. As you can see here it says DVD marked 29, so this is the
9 number which would correspond to what I testified before, to
10 paragraph number 7 in Blaszczyk's report. So -- and it says here what is
11 the content of this DVD
12 the video we will be watching today.
13 Q. All right. If I could just refer you to page number 7 in the
14 translation, which will hopefully correspond to page 28 or 29 in the
15 B/C/S. In any event, I'm going to refer you to item number 52.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's not the correct page in B/C/S but in
17 English. Please back the English version and one further page in B/C/S.
18 [Prosecution counsel confer]
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think next page in English. Mr. Vanderpuye
20 asked for item 52.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: It's the right page in the English. It's the
22 wrong page in the B/C/S. It should be the next page in the B/C/S,
23 Mr. President. Thank you.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, the previous page. We need item number 52.
25 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I was told that there is no item 52 in the
2 document in B/C/S. There's no page in between.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. Well, then it appears there's page
4 missing in the uploaded document. All right. Well, I think we can
5 manage through it.
6 Q. Basically, can you tell us what item 52 concerns.
7 A. Yes. Similar as previous one, item 52 concerns to the DVD marked
8 tape 52 and it says here what is -- what was on tape, actually, and we
9 will be watching part of this video as I think the last one in -- in my
10 testimony, and it is about the celebration of new years eve on 13th of
11 January, 1996. And this tape was not taken on 27 of March in Belgrade
12 Mr. Blaszczyk did not take with him back to The Hague this tape because
13 at that time this wasn't considered as a priority tape, but it was
14 provided to us, the original tape was provided to us, by the authorities
15 of the Republic of Serbia
16 Q. Thank you for that, Mr. Janc.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: For the record, Mr. President, item 52 concerns
18 65 ter 5498, which is the 13 January 1996
19 11 in the translation, and we'll be looking for item number 84, which,
20 with any luck, will be two pages forward in the B/C/S. It should be page
21 29 of the B/C/S.
22 At the bottom of the page in the B/C/S and in the English, it's
23 the second-to-last paragraph.
24 Q. Can you tell us about this item?
25 A. Yes, this is the VHS tape marked as 97 which we are about to
1 watch in a few minutes, so it is about the Patron's Saint Day, as can you
2 see from the description, on 12th of July 1995.
3 Q. Thank you for that.
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I would offer this document into
5 evidence as well.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received but the correct compilation
7 of pages should be checked again and, if necessary, uploaded into
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Q. I just want to show you one other document before we play the
11 video, and it should be very brief. It's 65 ter --
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We need the exhibit number first.
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: [Overlapping speakers]
14 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 6578 will be Exhibit P1017.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you. I would just like to have the
16 witness shown briefly 65 ter 6579.
17 We have I believe an English translation beginning where we see
18 the list in the B/C/S in the second paragraph.
19 Q. Can you tell us, first of all, do you recognise this document?
20 A. Yes. This document which accompanying -- which is a -- actually
21 their letter accompanying the original stuff sent to -- to the OTP.
22 Original stuff, I'm referring to -- to the one seized during the search
23 on 4th of December, 2008.
24 Q. Okay. And we can see in the first paragraph there's a reference
25 to 27 March 2009
1 the materials that were turned over to Mr. Blaszczyk?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And if I could, if we could just refer to the last page of this
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You just referred, Mr. Vanderpuye, to the first
6 paragraph. We didn't see it in English on the screen, only in B/C/S.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: You're right, Mr. President. Apparently the
8 very first paragraph and the title of the document itself hasn't been
9 translated. The list that accompanies the inventory was translated and
10 that's what we're seeing now. I'll arrange to have the first page of the
11 document also translated so that we have a complete record of what it is.
12 But, in particular, I was referring the witness to the last page of a
14 Q. And I just direct your attention to the indication here as to the
15 items received by Tomasz Blaszczyk. You can see how it's spelled there,
16 but did you have an opportunity to review this document?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. And have confirmed with Mr. Blaszczyk that in fact he received
19 the materials that are indicated in it?
20 A. Yes, indeed, he received all this material on that day, which
21 was, I think, 6th of April, 2009, and then he brought it here in
22 The Hague
23 Q. Okay. And do have you personal knowledge of that? I mean, did
24 you acquire that from speaking to him and have you seen the material
1 A. Yes, of course, I talked to him about this stuff, and when this
2 material was here, I was very much involved in reviewing all this stuff.
3 Q. Okay.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Janc, may I add a question. Do you know if
5 there are different copies of this document? Not different but several
6 copies of this document?
7 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of that. But since I see the
8 original stamp here, I would doubt there is additional -- additional
9 original document.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I put this question to you because I don't see a
11 signature of Mr. Blaszczyk.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, are you right. Most probably
13 Mr. Blaszczyk did not sign this copy of it, because this copy was for us,
14 for the OTP, and most probably will find the other original in Belgrade
15 with the War Crime Prosecutor, where he signed this -- on this document.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Was that the normal procedure the OTP followed,
17 that those who have given documents to the OTP received a receipt of
18 these documents?
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, indeed this is quite normal procedure for the
20 OTP. Yes, indeed.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
22 Mr. Vanderpuye go ahead.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I would tender this
24 document at this time.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be marked for identification, pending
1 full translation of the document.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 6579 will be Exhibit P1018, marked for
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: With that, I would like to play the videotape,
6 which is P236. And I understand that the transcripts have been uploaded.
7 And it is a subtitled video, so there shouldn't be a need for
9 [Video-clip played]
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you I just asked to stop the video for a
12 Q. If we could identify the people that are in this video, Mr. Janc,
13 in this frame?
14 A. Yes. The speaker on the right left-hand side, as I already
15 explained, it is General Milenko Zivanovic; at that time, still the
16 commander of the Drina Corps. Next to it, it's a man in white -- white
17 shirt, I think he was a waiter at that time, just a non-important person
18 for us.
19 So then we have to the -- at the top right corner we just see a
20 little bit of his face, but throughout the video can you see him better.
21 This is Mr. Zvonko Bajagic who is hosting this event. And underneath at
22 the bottom right corner, you can see the priest Vasilije Kacavenda.
23 Q. Thank you. We'll just play it out and I'll have a couple of
24 other questions for you.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And you should indicate where you stopped this
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I think we have an
3 indication of 40.22.1 on the counter. I'm not sure that it's consistent
4 with the version that we have in e-court. But, for the record anyway, I
5 think this is clear enough.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: 40 minutes, 22.1 seconds.
7 [Video-clip played]
8 [Prosecution counsel confer]
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I would like to offer in this --
10 well, it is in evidence so I won't offer it in but --
11 Q. We have an indication here, Mr. Janc, of a date of 12 July. Can
12 you tell in the context of this video how that determination was made?
13 A. Yes, we can see from the video itself, from the speech of
14 Mr. Zivanovic itself, when he is talking about the liberation of
15 Srebrenica the day before. That's one indication that is indeed
16 happening on 12th of July. And if you look into the entire video, before
17 that we have some ceremony going on in church in Vlasenica, and later on
18 in municipality in Vlasenica. And everything is relation to this Saint
19 Patrons [sic] Day which is also on 12 of July.
20 Q. And did you notice also an indication as to an air attack which
21 occurred, as he puts it, "yesterday"? Does the investigation that you've
22 engaged in in relation to these events, is it consistent with the date of
23 this video being taken on the 12th of July, 1995?
24 A. Yes, indeed. There was an air attack on 11th of July. And it's
25 another corroboration.
1 Q. Does the investigation indicate or, rather, support
2 General Zivanovic's assertion that a flag was raised in Srebrenica on the
3 11th of July?
4 A. Yes. That's also the case. We have -- we have information
5 documents and also I think intercepts when General Gvero is talking to
6 President Karadzic about this specific issue, about raising the flag on
7 the church in Srebrenica.
8 Q. All right. I'd like to go to the next video footage. We are
9 going through this chronologically. But before we do, let me first
10 identify to you so that you know what we are talking about, we have an
11 indicated date of 13 July, 1995
12 Do you have a familiarity with this particular video?
13 A. Yes, I have. And I reviewed also this one, and I think this
14 was -- I reviewed that one at the time when it -- it came into our
15 office, and it is a short video-clip of General Ratko Mladic being in
16 Srebrenica town on 13 of July, 1995. First, he gives a short speech in
17 front of the Orthodox church in Srebrenica. Then we have priest which is
18 inside this church, and he indicates that we are on that day, on -- in
19 Srebrenica. So on 13 of July in Srebrenica.
20 And then we have a General Mladic going to meet a Serb woman who
21 returned back to Srebrenica, and he -- he meets her there asking her
22 about -- about the destiny of her husband and kids, and together with him
23 at that spot we'll see there is again Zvonko Bajagic, the same individual
24 who hosted the lunch on the video we just -- we just saw, and also
25 Colonel Petar Salapura. He is also there. He is an intelligence officer
1 of the VRS Main Staff. And as for the background, how we -- we got this
2 video, the OTP made a request for the search to be conducted at the
3 residence of VRS Main Staff press officer, I think at that time he was a
4 colonel, Milutin Milo
5 was conducted by the members of the ministry of internal affairs of the
6 Republika Srpska, Bosnia and Herzegovina, in Banja Luka
7 2009, and during this search, this tape was also seized.
8 Later on, it was handed over by the members of the MUP of the
9 Republika Srpska to the BiH State Court in Sarajevo in Bosnia
10 over these original tapes to us on 25th of August, 2009. And we
11 digitalised all these tapes with co-operation of the EUFOR forces in
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina and then the original tapes were returned back to the
13 BiH State Court, but what we have got here at -- into our house was just
14 a DVD
15 evidence. It is actually the DVD
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: If I could just have the witness shown, please,
18 65 ter 6582.
19 Q. Do you recognise this --
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President?
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I stop you for a moment, please.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 [Prosecution counsel confer]
1 [Defence counsel confer]
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, we have discussed two questions.
3 The first one is a question to the witness: Could you tell us
4 how you were able to identify the people depicted in the -- the last
5 video we have seen? You said this is General Zivanovic; this is the
6 waiter. How did you know that? What is the source of your knowledge
7 about the identification of these people?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, I can explain.
9 Throughout my work as investigator here for Srebrenica team, I
10 have reviewed many statement, many videos and many -- many other
11 documents, and throughout this investigation, I got familiar of -- got
12 familiar regarding certain individuals, especially, of course, the
13 individuals which are VRS members. So you should always get familiarised
14 as investigator and be interested in who you are seeing on every single
15 video or every single evidence you come across during your investigation.
16 And that was the way how I learnt, although I never personally met
17 General Zivanovic, he was interviewed by the OTP several times. I -- I
18 reviewed his statement and, for example, you can see when the videos or
19 some documents or photos were shown to him where he identifies himself,
20 for example, and also throughout the investigation we interviewed many
21 other peoples, people where they were identifying these people.
22 So that's the source of information, how I know who these people
24 For example, for Zvonko Bajagic, for that one, I am -- I got
25 aware first time who this individual is when he testified here for
1 Defence in Popovic case. That was -- although he has been seen on
2 various videos from before, we have never actually identified him before
3 and when he was here, we identified him through these means.
4 So -- yeah. And these are basically, basically the -- the ways
5 how I am able to say who these people are.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Did you confront any person with this video and
7 ask any person; and, if so, whom who can -- could identify the people
8 depicted in the video?
9 THE WITNESS: For this particular video, I cannot say if we
10 confronted anyone with this video. It's possible. But I cannot say from
11 the top -- I would need to check, and I think for -- exactly for these
12 purposes how we identify each and every single one. My colleague
13 investigator Erin Gallagher is preparing right now, who will be
14 testifying about the video stills taken from these videos and where these
15 individuals will be depicted again, and she will, I think, let you know
16 how we identified them, through which -- through which means, through
17 which statement, through which individuals.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You referred to the man sitting on the right side
19 on the video as priest and you mentioned a name. I heard in the video
20 the speaker saying, I am glad that the bishop is with us. How would you
21 explain the difference between bishop and priest?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, I do apologise. It's -- indeed
23 it's not a priest because according to the church there are several
24 different levels of -- of -- of the church officials, and the priest is,
25 I think, a lower level. But this individual is -- yeah, it can be
1 bishop. It is one from -- from the higher echelon of this church. But
2 I'm not that familiar with the church structure. So he is for sure not
3 just a priest.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are you saying that every bishop is a priest but
5 not every priest a bishop?
6 THE WITNESS: I do apologise, Your Honour. I don't know the --
7 the exact differences between them, so I'm afraid I cannot respond to --
8 to this question.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, I would like to ask you, because
10 we discussed it among us, why are you showing this video and perhaps the
11 other videos through this witness? What is the relation between this
12 witness and the videos?
13 Perhaps can you elaborate on that a little bit further.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Sure, thanks Mr. President.
15 We're showing this sequence of videos through this witness
16 because this witness is an investigator with the Srebrenica trial team,
17 has familiarity with the course of the investigation, the individuals
18 that are depicted in the -- in the videos, the context in which -- or the
19 context that is presented in the videos in relation to the events on the
20 ground, which is within the ken of this witness's expertise, knowledge,
21 and experience, and he has familiarity with the chain of custody
22 concerning these videos which I know is an issue that the Court is
23 interested in and certainly has been interested in with respect to other
25 So that's the reason why it's coming in through this witness.
1 Doesn't mean necessarily that it might not come in through other
2 witnesses as well or other witnesses may comment on it, but I think that
3 this witness's familiarity with the investigation, the players that are
4 involved that are depicted in the video, the circumstances that the video
5 is involved, and the context in which the footage -- in which the footage
6 was taken, and ultimately delivered to the Office of the Prosecutor and
7 then developed, analysed and -- and introduced to the Court is within
8 his -- is certainly within his -- within his knowledge and abilities, and
9 that's the reason why it is coming in through him.
10 You may opine, and can I see by the expression on your face, that
11 it might be more appropriate to introduce the videos through other
12 witnesses and I agree that that may be true, but I don't think that that
13 necessarily is the only avenue through which the video can come into this
14 case, and I think as the case develops and as the evidence comes in you
15 will be able to see more clearly why it is that we can -- why it is
16 introduced through this witness and how it's also relevant to other
17 witnesses as they come in.
18 So that, in a nutshell, is -- is our position on it with respect
19 to this witness. It could come in through Mr. Blaszczyk, it could come
20 in through Ms. Gallagher. It could come in through Mr. Bajagic, if he
21 comes back. It could come in through General Zivanovic. It could come
22 in through Petar Salapura, who is depicted in one of these videos. It
23 could come in through a -- from a number of sources, but I think given
24 the scheduling, the timing of the presentation of evidence that this is
25 an appropriate avenue for which -- to introduce the material.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
2 Judge Nyambe has a question.
3 JUDGE NYAMBE: I think, Mr. Vanderpuye, you have answered the
4 question I was going to put to, that you are just taking us in a
5 roundabout way through the witness hopefully something that you would be
6 able to give us through, according to this witness's evidence,
7 Mr. Tomasz Blaszczyk.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Blaszczyk, yes.
9 JUDGE NYAMBE: Yes. I thought that would have been the
10 appropriate witness in view of the fact that what you are trying to do
11 here, which is correct, is to establish the chain of custody because it
12 is him who had links with the actual people who gave him -- it gives us
13 difficult -- for example, this witness was saying the other person in the
14 video in a white shirt is a waiter. Now, he was not at that function,
15 and the video does not confirm to me that that person is a waiter because
16 a waiter would come and serve you drinks and go, but that one is there
17 throughout. So those are some of the difficulties we have, but I -- I
18 agree you can go with this -- this way.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: I appreciate your observation, Your Honour, and
20 I would point out also that this is excerpt of the -- of the larger
21 video. There is more footage which shows the service of drinks, it shows
22 a benediction by this priest or bishop, and -- which would put some of
23 Mr. Janc's testimony, I think, in better context. But the video itself
24 is quite lengthy, and I think in order to establish that context it would
25 take, well, a substantial amount of time in order to -- in order to do
1 that. But certainly Mr. Janc's conclusions, and I don't want to testify,
2 but they're not without foundation in the context of the broader video.
3 But I do appreciate it, because I appreciate your concern, because you
4 can't see that on the video. And perhaps can I elicit this information
5 from Mr. Janc with respect to the other videos I will show him so maybe
6 we can have better context and you can see more directly the relevance of
7 the conclusions that he has drawn.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much for your additional
9 explanations, and, indeed, at a later stage we will put all these
10 information together.
11 Please carry on.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President. I think I had a document up on
13 the screen. Just a moment.
14 [Prosecution counsel confer]
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, it was 6582. Thank you, Ms. Stewart.
16 Q. Yes, Mr. Janc, could you tell us a little bit about this document
17 in relation to the video that we're about to see of -- regarding 13
18 July 1995.
19 A. Yes. This is a report of the Republika Srpska Ministry of
20 Interior, crime investigation department about the search of the
21 apartment of the Milutinovic, Milovan, conducted on 22nd July in 2009 in
22 Banja Luka.
23 So -- and we can see down there they have listed the items they
24 seized during the search. And on the next page, we'll see additional
1 Q. All right. If we could just go to the next page briefly.
2 All right. Can you tell us about this? These are the other
3 items that were recovered during the course of the search?
4 A. Yes. These are the additional items.
5 Q. Okay. And were these items delivered to the Office of the
6 Prosecutor, as far as you're aware?
7 A. As far as I am aware, they were all sent to the BiH State Court
8 first, and from them, we received these items on 25th of August, 2009.
9 Q. And on the 25th of August, 2009, with respect to these item, I
10 take it you were employed by the OTP?
11 A. Yes, indeed.
12 Q. Did you have anything to do with the items that were received as
13 a result of this search?
14 A. Yes. The same as for the items with the search in Belgrade
15 also reviewed the DVDs and -- yeah, the DVDs which were seized with this
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President I would offer this document into
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1019.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you. I'd like to show the witness 65 ter
22 6581, and we can get through this one just before the break, I think.
23 Q. Mr. Janc, do you recognise this document?
24 A. Yes, I do. It's acknowledgment of receipt of these documents
25 from 25th of July, when they were taken over from the BiH State Court by
1 our Sarajevo
2 Q. And -- I'm sorry.
3 A. And it relates to the documents which were seized during the
4 search of Milovan Milutinovic's apartment. And we can see that there I'm
5 referring to a reference number 02/2-19/09, dated 22nd of July, 2009, and
6 this same reference number was referred into the report we have just seen
8 Q. Thank you for that.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I would also tender this document
10 into evidence.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1020.
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I see that it's time for the
14 break. I'd like to play the video as soon as we come back, with your
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
17 We have to -- we must have our first break now, and we will
18 resume at quarter past 4.00.
19 We adjourn.
20 --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 4.19 p.m.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye, please go ahead.
23 Oh, sorry, I didn't see that. Mr. Tolimir.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Peace
25 unto this house and for all those present. May God's will be done in
1 these proceedings and may the outcome be as God wishes not as I wish.
2 I didn't want to exert any pressure on Mr. Vanderpuye, but I
3 think that it would be much more appropriate to prove the authenticity of
4 the videos through those present, that is Zivanovic, Salapura, and the
5 others. So they are the persons that should be asked. We have nothing
6 against bringing them. But, on the other hand, we are not opposed to
7 using a document marked for identification. I don't want to interfere
8 with Mr. Vanderpuye's job, but please bear in mind our position on this
9 as well.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed, Mr. Tolimir. Before the break, we had a
11 discussion which -- in which way, with which witness the videos should be
12 introduced. For today, I think we have received enough explanation by
13 Mr. Vanderpuye.
14 You should proceed. And if there's any need about additional
15 evidence, about their source and the content of such a video, you should
16 consider that.
17 Please go ahead.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President. I think I
19 have to tell you that 65 ter 6578, this, I think, is the document with
20 the missing page has been corrected, and I think it's uploaded into
21 e-court now. I know I that I had moved on to the second video, but I
22 wanted to just go back just briefly for a second to the 12 July one.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perhaps there is a mistake. Are you really
1 referring to 65 ter 6578 or 79? If I recall that correctly, the missing
2 translation page was 65 ter 6579.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think it was -- I think it was 6578, and that
4 was the missing page concerning the entry at -- for item number 52. I
5 think -- so I think 6578 is correct, although you have now put some doubt
6 in my mind.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which P document is it? Perhaps we can get an
8 information from the Registrar.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: It's P1017, I understand.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. Please carry on.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Q. I just wanted to go back for a moment to the first video that was
13 played, Mr. Janc.
14 And in that video, first, you do see this priest or bishop as has
15 been referred to. In the video itself, however, the clip that we played,
16 we don't see him doing much, and I wondered if you could explain to the
17 Trial Chamber what, if anything, you observed this bishop doing that's
18 not in the frame, not in the clip that we played?
19 A. Yes. The actual tape starts with religious activity ceremony in
20 front of the and inside the church, Orthodox church in Vlasenica, where
21 this same bishop is having a mass there. And it continues in -- in the
22 municipality building in Vlasenica, again, with some religious
24 So -- and this priest is involved in these activities.
25 Q. And can you tell us where the Orthodox church in Vlasenica is in
1 relation to the -- what we can see in the video frame, which you've
2 identified as the home of Mr. Bajagic?
3 A. The Orthodox church in Vlasenica is in city centre, close to the
4 city centre, yes. It's a -- and then municipality building is just few
5 hundred metres away from the church, and the house, Bajagic's house, is
6 next to the main road Vlasenica-Milici, just outside the -- the Vlasenica
7 city centre. So when you go down towards Milici it is on the right-hand
8 side, just next to the road.
9 Q. And we've seen in the video whom you've identified as
10 General Milenko Zivanovic was the commander of the Drina Corps on 12
11 July. Can you tell us what relationship the town of Vlasenica has to the
13 A. Yes. In Vlasenica, the Drina Corps is actually located, so
14 that's the seat of the Drina Corps.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I wondered if I could invited
16 Court if it had any other questions with respect to this particular video
17 before I moved on to the next one.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, please move on to the next video.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
20 Now we were talking a moment ago about the 13 July video which I
21 think we'll play now. This was 65 ter 1396.
22 [Video-clip played]
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you. I just stopped the frame for a
24 moment because I was going to ask the witness to identify the individuals
25 that are shown in this frame.
1 Q. If you could, Mr. Janc, could you tell us who -- who is depicted
2 in this particular frame.
3 A. Yes, I can. First, woman from the left in white shirt, she's a
4 Serb returning back home to Srebrenica. Behind her we just see the head
5 of Colonel Petar Salapura, the intelligence officer of the VRS
6 Main Staff. Next to it, we see looking on the other side is a man with
7 blond hair. He is a body-guard of General Ratko Mladic. And we see the
8 man in between General Ratko Mladic and this -- his body-guard, with a
9 cap on it, he is -- he is Zvonko Bajagic. And the last man on the
10 right-hand side, is General Ratko Mladic.
11 Q. All right. I'll just play the video out and then I'll ask you a
12 little bit more about that.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you tell us, please, what -- how did you
14 find out that these people are depicted in this still?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, I can. Regarding the woman, it
16 is from the content of this video we can conclude who that woman is,
17 although we don't know her name.
18 For General Ratko Mladic, it's during the course of the
19 investigation we -- we found who that -- that individual is.
20 And for Petar Salapura, I can say I personally met him here when
21 he was -- during his proofing session for Popovic trial, so I can
22 identify him as being him.
23 We also identified the body-guards when we interviewed him, not
24 me personally, but I think for sure my colleague Blaszczyk.
25 And for Zvonko Bajagic, I already explained, I can also identify
1 him because, through his testimony here I know him, how he looked like,
2 so that's how I can -- how I can identify these people.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: We can just play out the video.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just a moment, please, Judge Nyambe has an
6 additional question.
7 JUDGE NYAMBE: Firstly I still have some difficulty why this
8 video is being played with this witness. That's -- that problem still
10 Secondly, he -- he refers to the woman as wearing a shirt. I
11 think that's a T-shirt. And there's a big difference between a T-shirt
12 and a shirt. The least he can do is make the identification correctly.
13 But I still have some basic difficulty why we are seeing this video --
14 I'm not saying it's not -- you should not introduce it, but why through
15 this witness and not through Blaz -- whatever it is and whoever is
16 supposed to produce -- to introduce it.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Your Honour, I understand your concern. And I
18 think it is really more a matter of -- for the moment, it's a matter of
19 convenience and opportunity in order to play the videotape and introduce
20 it before the Court. I think that Mr. Janc is just as valid a basis to
21 introduce this video as any other witness would be because of his
22 familiarity and involvement in the investigation and his ability to
23 explain the context and the participants in the video themselves.
24 I take your point with respect to the description that Mr. Janc
25 gave concerning the woman depicted in the video. However, I think also
1 that the video functionally speaks for itself. Mr. Janc's observations
2 with respect to the videos are not clearly binding on the Court. The
3 evidence that we seek to introduce is the video, the substance of the
4 video itself. But I think that Mr. Janc's testimony is also valuable to
5 the court in terms of orienting the Court with respect to the content of
6 the video, the context of the video, and the people that are actually
7 depicted in the video.
8 In this case, you can see, even from the subtitling and from the
9 transcript of the video, that General Mladic, for example, is identified.
10 And so clearly Mr. Janc's identification of General Mladic is not
11 substantive in this case because the video speaks for itself. You are
12 right, there are other avenues in which to introduce this video. There
13 are other mechanisms and vehicles that perhaps the Prosecution could have
14 chosen to use, but I think fundamentally the question is whether or not
15 there's a sufficient basis that resides in Mr. Janc to introduce it, and
16 I think that there is because of his knowledge of the case and his
17 involvement in analysing this material, reviewing this material, as well
18 as his involvement or knowledge of how the material was acquired.
19 You can imagine a certain situation where, for example, material
20 has been turned over to the Prosecutor and the person who turned it over
21 has died or can't be located. But it -- to the extent that there is a --
22 a sequence of events or chain of events that can establish the provenance
23 of the article through somebody who has reviewed it, somebody who has
24 experience with it, that would be also be an appropriate vehicle to
25 introduce that piece of evidence through, as it would had the person
1 survived and not disappeared or -- or died.
2 So I think that that's an appropriate basis upon which to -- to
3 introduce the evidence.
4 As I mentioned before, this particular video features
5 Colonel Petar Salapura, who Mr. Janc has identified as an intelligence
6 officer, in fact the chief of intelligence, in the VRS Main Staff. He's
7 on our witness list, we expect him to testify, and, hopefully, we expect
8 to be able to play this videotape to him and to have him identify himself
9 to the court, which I think would probably be the most straightforward
10 authentication of this material, but I don't think it's the only course
11 of action is my point and that's the reason why I think it is appropriate
12 to address the matter through Mr. Janc.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: At the moment we are not in the position to
14 decide about admission of this video into evidence. We look at it, and
15 this witness is only in the position to testify about his investigation,
16 how he took part in the investigation, and the methods he used during his
17 investigation because he was not an eye-witness and he was not on the
18 spot at that time.
19 Is that correct?
20 [Prosecution counsel confer]
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: Could you just bear with me for a moment,
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 [Prosecution counsel confer]
25 [Defence counsel confer]
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President.
3 Mr. McCloskey has reminded me that Mr. Janc has just testified he
4 actually met with Colonel Salapura and he is identifying on his --
5 identifying based on his own personal knowledge on -- of having seen him.
6 So that's clearly, I think, a sufficient basis in and of itself to
7 identify this witness -- identify or authenticate this tape. He is in
8 the best position to do that because he has personally met
9 Colonel Salapura. Colonel Salapura's presence in and around Srebrenica
10 on the 13th of July, 1995, is obviously a significant issue in this case.
11 It's relevant given his relationship to the accused in this case, his
12 subordination to the accused in this case, and the events in the context
13 of the events that were occurring in and around that area on -- on that
14 date and thereafter.
15 So I think that there is a sufficient basis certainly under
16 Rule 85 for the admission of the tape, A, as it -- I think its
17 reliability can be established through the witness and clearly its
18 relevancy to the events in question under the indictment is rather
19 direct. So I wanted to add that as well. And I think -- I think that
20 that is a sufficient basis for its admission even at this time.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, again, we are not in a position
22 to decide that now. We want to see the whole video. And we would be
23 happy, if you could, distinguish while putting questions to the witness
24 if he personally know -- knows and recognises a person depicted in the
25 video or if he knows it from his investigation by comparing videos with
1 other videos. It is important to know what is the source of his personal
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Otherwise, we are only on the position to mark it
5 for identification. This video, if you want to use it with another
6 witness, for instance, witness Salapura, you may do that. At the moment
7 we are not deciding on that. We wait for the end of this video.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. Thank you, Mr. President. The video is,
9 I think, only a couple of seconds more, so we'll play it out.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. That's the end of the video.
12 I would like to revisit the issue of its admissibility obviously
13 now that it is concluded. But there is one issue that I wanted to
14 address and that was -- I forgot to mention this earlier, is that I
15 realize now that the subtitles are all in English, and I understand that
16 we have not received or we are not receiving any French interpretation of
17 the transcript of the video. We've asked for that -- we've asked that
18 that not be the case because it would interfere with the audio and even
19 if the language is different the tenor of the conversation, the cadence
20 of the conversation, all of this can affect the evidence. But I would
21 like to ask whether or not this poses a problem for -- for the Bench not
22 to have the availability of -- of French translation at this time, if can
23 we can proceed as we have been.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Mindua.
25 JUDGE MINDUA: Yes, I checked. I was receiving the French
1 interpretation of the document. I have it.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This problem is solved.
4 Mr. Vanderpuye.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes it is. And that's good.
6 What I'd like to do then is I'd like to tender this video into
7 evidence on the basis that I have articulated before. It's 1396.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think the Chamber would like to postpone the
9 decision about admission of this document. We have to consider your
10 submission on that, but we will mark it for identification so that we
11 know what we are talking about.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President. I would
13 like to --
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: One moment.
15 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 1396 will be Exhibit P1021, marked for
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now carry on, please.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
19 I'd like to move to the next one, and that's a video that we have
20 here indicating 16 July 1995
21 Q. Mr. Janc, do you have familiarity with this particular video?
22 A. Yes, I have. I also reviewed this video. And it -- it shows
23 it's happening in Belgrade
24 first part of the video. With General Ratko Mladic present, some doctors
25 from the hospital, and a delegation from the -- Canada, and those members
1 are the members of the humanitarian organisation Serbian Republic
3 military hospital in Belgrade
4 So General Ratko Mladic is there, and later on, we see, the day
5 after, on 17 of July, the video from -- from Han -- from Crna Rijeka
6 actually, with General Ratko Mladic inside the -- the facilities,
7 military facilities there, together with General Milan Gvero, and also
8 the same Canadian group of people is present when discussing.
9 And we obtained this video --
10 Q. Let me just interrupt you for a moment.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, can we move into private session
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 5761-5778 redacted. Private session.
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
11 We have to adjourn, and we will resume at quarter past 6.00.
12 --- Recess taken at 5.49 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 6.20 p.m.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President.
16 I think we've -- I think we've pretty much concluded with the
17 last videotape, which was 65 ter 5508, which I will have tendered at this
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But we will not receive it now but only marked
20 for identification. We still are concerned about the question of this
21 witness is the right one through -- if this document should be -- the
22 video should be received through this witness.
23 It will be marked for identification.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: One moment, please.
1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1022, marked for identification.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: I did want to point out that it's my
3 understanding that the Defence does not have an objection to the
4 admission of the videos themselves, at least they've not indicated that
5 to us, and I think I've approached them with respect to whether or not
6 they had any objections to any of the documents or videos that I would be
7 using. But I don't know if they still maintain that position or they
8 take no position, but I thought that that's a relevant consideration for
9 the Court.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Chamber is really concerned about that,
11 because we have checked again the summary from our -- from your 65 ter
12 witness list, and we don't see anything about videos to be shown but only
13 results of exhumations of the Srebrenica-related mass graves and the
14 collection of human remains from the surface, so in that way we are
15 really concerned why these videos are shown with this witness.
16 But we shouldn't waste court time.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: I understand that.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We will decide that later.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, yes, I understand. You're referring to the
20 65 ter witness summary. That's right.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Exactly. Please carry on.
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. Mr. President.
23 What I'd like to deal with now --
24 Q. Mr. Janc, is P681, and we'll get that up hopefully in a moment.
25 But this is a video that is dated 21 July 1995. And do you have any
1 familiarity with this particular video footage?
2 A. Yes, I do have. I also reviewed this video, and it is the
3 farewell or leaving the DutchBat Srebrenica enclave on 21st of July. It
4 is the footage from the border crossing in Bratunac before they go over
5 the iron bridge to then Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
6 We received -- the OTP received this footage upon the request
7 from Antelope Production on 1st December, 1999. They were preparing a
8 movie regarding Srebrenica, the title of the movie was "The Cry From The
9 Grave," and in order to prepare this movie, they -- they have obtained
10 this video which was then provided to us upon our request.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: For the record, could you please repeat from whom
12 you received that. It is not included in the record it.
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, I can. It is Antelope
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE:
17 Q. Do you know, based upon your review of the information concerning
18 this video footage, from where the Antelope Production Company secured
19 this video footage?
20 A. No, unfortunately. There was just information on our note that
21 when did we get this -- this footage from, but no further information
22 from where they -- they got this -- this video from.
23 Q. And do you know for whom this particular production was being
24 prepared; that is, "The Cry From The Grave"?
25 A. Not really. If I'm not wrong, it was for -- it was first -- no,
1 I cannot comment on that. No.
2 Q. All right. Have you had an opportunity to review the footage
4 A. Yes, several times, that I can confirm, yes.
5 Q. And was that in the course of your functions as an investigator
6 in the Srebrenica case, separate and apart from your preparation for your
7 testimony here today?
8 A. Yes, that's correct.
9 Q. And can you tell us approximately, if you can remember, how many
10 times you might have -- you might have actually reviewed this footage?
11 A. I would say around three to four times.
12 Q. All right. And in the context of your involvement in the
13 investigation, were you able to individual any particular individuals
14 that are featured in this video footage?
15 A. Yes, indeed. There are the Dutch Battalion military officials
16 there on this footage. And I can start with DutchBat battalion in
17 Srebrenica, commander Lieutenant-Colonel Thomas Karremans. And also
18 General Nicolai Cornelis who has testified here in this case already, he
19 is on that video. And several others, other DutchBat battalion members
20 you can see on this video. Apart from that, also the members of the VRS
21 are present on this video, starting with General Ratko Mladic, there is
22 also Lieutenant-Colonel Vujadin Popovic, the Drina Corps -- Drina Corps
23 security officer, and, of course, there is also Colonel Radoslav
24 Jankovic; he is the intelligence officer of the VRS Main Staff. Apart
25 from that, we can also see, I think, the member of the state security
1 from Serbia
2 video itself, you can -- you can hear that -- that is he from Serbia
3 Q. All right. Thanks for that. I think we can get started and play
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: It's 65 ter -- I'm sorry. It's P681.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you. I just wanted to stop for a moment.
8 Q. If you can identify who we have in the frame here, Mr. Janc.
9 A. Yes, I can. On the left-hand side turned with a back to us, it
10 is General Ratko Mladic. On the right-hand side, with a blue beret, it
11 is General Nicolai Cornelis. And I cannot recognise who that individual
12 behind the General Cornelis is.
13 Q. And in terms of your identity of General Cornelis Nicolai in the
14 right-hand of this frame, right-hand side of this frame, can you tell us
15 what the basis of your knowledge is for that?
16 A. General Nicolai testified here for this trial and also before for
17 Popovic trial, and I was personally present when we proofed him for
18 Popovic trial, so I met him personally and I know that's him for sure.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. We can continue.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You should indicate the time when you stopped the
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: You're right. Thank you Mr. President. That's
23 at 00 minutes, 35 seconds.
24 And I think we can go on a little bit.
25 [Video-clip played]
1 MR. VANDERPUYE:
2 Q. Mr. Janc, can you tell us who this individual is now that's in
3 the frame and the blue beret? And that's at 47 seconds in this video.
4 A. Yes, this is Lieutenant-Colonel Thomas Karremans. He was the
5 commander of the Dutch battalion in Srebrenica enclave.
6 Q. And what's the basis of your knowledge for that?
7 A. I haven't met him personally, but I know he was identified
8 several times during -- when I was present during the proofing sessions
9 with Dutch -- Dutch Battalion personnel who came here to testify in
10 Popovic and also in this Tolimir trial.
11 Q. And have you seen him before in the context of any other video
12 footage that you may have reviewed?
13 A. Yes, indeed. He is also present at all these three Fontana
14 meetings in Bratunac, and also through the course of reviewing these
15 videos and other stuff, I can be -- I can confirm that that's him.
16 Q. Okay.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think we can go on.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you. I've interrupted it again.
20 Q. Mr. Janc, are you able to identify the individual on the left
21 side of this frame? And that's at 2 minutes 30 seconds in this footage.
22 A. If you mean the first individual from the far left side with
23 blond hair, that's the body-guard of General Ratko Mladic.
24 Q. And can you tell us what the basis of your knowledge is for that?
25 A. The same -- the basis for my knowledge is that I got aware who
1 that individual is during the -- as a member of him being involved in the
2 investigative activities in relation to Srebrenica, and I learned that
3 this guy, this individual, through statements that he is the body-guard
4 of General Ratko Mladic.
5 Q. Is he featured in any of the videos we've seen today?
6 A. Yes, he is. He is individual who was present together with Ratko
7 Mladic on 13 of July in Srebrenica in that house with woman refugee. He
8 is present there.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. I think we can -- we can continue.
11 [Video-clip played]
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: We are at 2 minutes and 58 seconds in this
14 Can you tell us -- well, can you identify any of the individuals
16 A. Yes, I can. The first individual from the left-hand side is the
17 same as before, so a body-guard of the General Ratko Mladic.
18 The individual next to it, to his left, I don't recognise.
19 And then the third one, which is from our left-hand side or just
20 behind General Ratko Mladic, is Lieutenant-Colonel Vujadin Popovic, the
21 Drina Corps chief of security.
22 Q. And what's your basis of knowledge with respect to your
23 identification of Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic in this frame?
24 A. He was one of the accused in -- in so-called Popovic et al case,
25 so that's the main source. And also, throughout the investigation we
1 came across his name and footages with him being on -- on this footage --
2 footages. Very often also many people identified him on these footages.
3 So that's my knowledge of -- of him.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think we can continue.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay.
8 Q. Mr. Janc, we have an indication here that this was on 21 July.
9 Are you able to confirm that? And if you can, can you tell us what the
10 basis for that is.
11 A. Yes, indeed, this is 21st of July, when the DutchBat left the
12 enclave and we can -- we can get this information -- actually, I got this
13 information from several documents in relation to our investigation, I'm
14 including the witnesses's statements and documents from VRS and UNPROFOR
16 Q. And at the very beginning of the -- or near the beginning of the
17 footage we see a bridge. Can you orient the Trial Chamber and tell us
18 where that is in relation to the -- to the -- to the departure of the
19 Dutch Battalion?
20 A. Yes, I can. This is actually in Bratunac and the bridge goes
21 over the Drina River
22 which is just few kilometres away from Bratunac or from the spot we have
23 seen here on this video.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put an additional question. Have you ever
25 been in Bratunac or Potocari.
1 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, indeed. I've been in Bratunac
2 several times, also in Potocari several times. But I can confirm I've
3 never been at this particular spot, what we see on this video. So at
4 this border crossing.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
6 Go ahead.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Q. There is just one other person I'd like you to take a look at to
9 see if you can identify, and I think we have it here. It's at 41 seconds
10 in this video.
11 Are you able to recognise the individual next to General Nicolai
12 with the -- appears to be a brown beret on.
13 A. Yes, indeed. This is individual which I was not sure before who
14 that was. But now I can recognise him. He is Colonel Radoslav Jankovic,
15 the officer of the intelligence department of the VRS Main Staff.
16 Q. And do you know off the top of your head what his relationship
17 was to Colonel Petar Salapura, the chief of intelligence of the VRS
18 Main Staff?
19 A. This individual, Colonel Jankovic, was subordinated to him
21 Q. I thank you for that.
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I would tender this video.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It is it already an exhibit.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Oh, I'm sorry, then I don't tender it.
25 I do have an another video that I would like to play. It's --
1 it's longer than the time that we have left and I think it would be
2 better to proceed with it tomorrow, with leave of the Court.
3 [Prosecution counsel confer]
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: And so I would like, with leave of the Court, to
5 end today. I expect -- I have three more videos to go through tomorrow.
6 At the pace that it's going, I hope it will improve, but I expect at this
7 pace it will take up most of tomorrow also. But -- so that's my
9 Mr. McCloskey would like to -- to address the Court briefly
10 before we adjourn, if -- if -- if that's what is convenient for the
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But how much time do you indicate we will need
13 with the examination-in-chief of Mr. Janc?
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think I may have indicated originally about
15 the full day today. I think I'm probably going to need two sessions
16 tomorrow to get through all of it. We have about a 20-minute video and
17 another video, I think that the next two are about 17 minutes altogether.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye --
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm told I'm mistaken. It's been an hour
20 altogether video footage.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perhaps you could consider overnight the
22 question, if you should show these videos with this witness or not. You
23 have seen -- the Chamber has a certain resistance to receive the videos
24 with this witness. Perhaps you could consider the question if there are
25 more appropriate witnesses who can have more first knowledge about the
1 source, the people who are depicted in it, and so on. You said you have
2 different ways you could show the videos with, and, therefore, you should
3 consider this question.
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President. We'll take that under
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
7 Mr. McCloskey.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think the witness should probably leave.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Yes, indeed.
10 Mr. Janc, thank you for your attendance today again. As you see,
11 it is a quite long story with your evidence. I'm sure -- we are sure you
12 can't finish by tomorrow, because Mr. Tolimir will have the right to
13 cross-examine you, and, therefore, I just want to remind you it is not
14 allowed to have any contact with either party about the content of your
16 Thank you very much for your attendance, and now you are free to
17 return to your normal activities.
18 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
19 [The witness stands down]
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good-bye.
21 Mr. McCloskey.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. I just wanted to respond to
23 a little bit of what your concerns and try to take my comments of
24 yesterday and try to help sort out where we are.
25 As you know we have a two-day gap and that's why this witness and
1 this material is here. I was -- Mr. Thayer informed me that the main
2 reason for that gap, which I didn't understand at the time, was that the
3 first estimate that we got from the accused was -- for my witness Wright
4 was four to five days because he was the first -- the first forensic
5 archeology witness, and that's what Mr. Thayer based the schedule on
6 mostly. And then, of course, as the accused reviewed the material, like
7 we all do, and they've changed that to three to four hours. So we had
8 this gap.
9 And we had not originally planned on a detailed process regarding
10 this video for you. It's never in the years that we've put on this video
11 has anyone ever objected to it. All the accused have always -- no one's
12 ever objected to any of the people or authentication in it, which would
13 come out, whether you take that as any value. I understand you're a new
14 Bench and you may not hold much stock in that, but as we learned that you
15 want details on this, of course, we also never got any objection from
16 General Tolimir on this video, and he knows these -- the evidence will
17 show he knows these people.
18 So -- but as we began to learn that you wanted more on this, then
19 we started thinking, well, we need to get the investigators ready to do
20 this, and it came a little bit earlier than we thought. And when I look
21 at the 65 ter summaries for the investigators, it was Erin Gallagher that
22 we had put down as our video person because she had some knowledge in the
23 videos. However, Dusan Janc is probably the best investigator and the
24 best person to do this work. The best example that you saw today is he
25 spent an entire proofing session with Colonel Salapura, and this -- the
1 issue of Colonel Salapura identified with General Mladic on 13 July in
2 Srebrenica is very important. There is no better witness than -- than
3 Mr. Janc to identify Salapura. Salapura, himself, Your Honours, as you
4 will see was involved in these events. We haven't shown him that video
5 as we got it relatively recently, but he could, I don't think so, but he
6 could get up and say, "That's not me," but I would argue that Dusan
7 Janc's identification will be better than that. Mr. Bajagic testified in
8 this trial and is not a reliable witness in my view. Dusan Janc is a
9 much better witness than Bajagic, and I am convinced that you would see
10 that had you seen that.
11 So we don't put Dusan Janc up here half heartedly or without
12 preparation. He reads the language. He understands what's being said
13 when he sees these videos. He's got a good memory, and he on short
14 notice is one of the best people to do that. He didn't drive around
15 quite as much as Mr. Blaszczyk who ends up signing these things, but
16 Mr. Blaszczyk would bring it to him. These people, Gallagher, Blaszczyk,
17 and Janc are in the same office about 2 metres from each other, so he
18 really is an excellent witness for this material.
19 And there is the -- the legal issue here is we don't have an
20 objection, we have material that speaks for itself. I mean, this is
21 amazing material that would be very difficult to fake. We've all seen
22 fakes, so we understand your skepticism and we will meet that with the
23 evidence. But it does speak for itself. Remember that. And it's a
24 question of admissibility. Admissibility with the basics of how we got
25 it, that should make it admissible under the law here. Admissibility is
1 a very low threshold. Now, the weight that you give it, that's what
2 we're talking about. So we would argue that this material is clearly
3 admissible based that we got and when we got it and how we got it. How
4 much weight you give it is, of course, your determination. So we believe
5 that this is more of a weight issue than an admissibility issue.
6 However, I'm very happy that are you questioning this so that we
7 know now that you need the answers to these questions. And so we will
8 provide you as best we can with the answers through Mr. Janc and through
9 the other -- the other people. But just so you know, for example, the --
10 the last -- the last video of the departure of the DutchBat from iron
11 bridge, you will be hearing from Sergeant Major Rave. He was there, he
12 was a part of it. He'll recognise all the Dutch people. He'll recognise
13 some of the Serbian People that was in it. So he'll -- he's going to be
14 able to put that in context for you if we need it. Major Boering, who is
15 also our witness, will be able to do it. And Colonel Salapura has
16 testified here, he's co-operated, and I expect he will testify, and I do
17 expect him to actually acknowledge that's him in Srebrenica. But you
18 never know.
19 And so where we can we're bringing you people that were actually
20 in the video, you're going to see documents associated with the videos,
21 and it's a very colourful group of people, and it's certainly not just
22 Mr. Janc. And now that we know, you know, how important it is for you,
23 these details, we're going to churn up these details more and remember
24 these videos better for all the other witnesses. But you will see from a
25 lot of these people that are in this video you get to see. But Mr. Janc
1 is -- is a great witness for this. There is no better from the
2 investigative team. Much of this material came in after Mr. Ruez was
3 here, and we -- we had given this some thought, though it wasn't on the
4 description, we put the description for that in Erin Gallagher.
5 And Erin
6 all these videos. It's basically the -- this booklet, and this booklet
7 is a booklet of stills, and -- sorry, I don't have the 65 ter number for
8 it right now. It has one, of course. And basically it's a series of
9 important stills and Erin Gallagher is right now preparing to testify
10 about these stills. As you may recall Mr. Janc saying that she was going
11 testify about who is who in these videos, and this particular document
12 lists some of the things that support how the investigation has
13 identified various people, and so it's basically the playbook. Not that
14 our videos are an opera, but it's critical to the -- to the video you'll
15 see to have the playbook so that when you go back and take a look at
16 these videos you will this in front of you that will say who people are.
17 And -- but we're not asking you just to count on the
18 investigators for this. We will throughout this trial you will see over
19 and over again who these people are, and I have every confidence that
20 General Tolimir, if we get anybody wrong, will let us know, as he should
21 do as representing his Defence. I know we don't expect any statements
22 from him but as he represents his Defence, if we get something wrong, I'm
23 sure he will tell us.
24 But in any event, I've talked for too long now, but that's --
25 that's what I wanted to tell you about, the whole picture. Yes, we've
1 come in not as prepared as we would like, but this is -- these are
2 reliable folks, and we appreciate your questions because we were -- this
3 is new for us. It's a new panel and every panel is different and we know
4 that and we appreciate that and we respect it, so we are very happy that
5 you are asking questions now and that we don't find out down the road.
6 So thank you very much.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. McCloskey, for your
8 thoughtful comments.
9 I think that was helpful for the Chamber to receive your position
10 and we will consider that as well. I will not comment on that now. But
11 you must understand that, indeed, every Chamber is a separate chamber in
12 this Tribunal, as everywhere in the world, and we have to make our own
13 Judgement at the end of the day, and we are not saying anything about the
14 qualification of any witness here. We will do that at the end of the
15 day. But we understand your position, and we have listened carefully.
16 Thank you very much for that.
17 Mr. Tolimir, do you want to respond? You have the floor.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
19 I don't have anything to say. Tomorrow is another day, and I
20 don't want to keep you any longer.
21 Thank you.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Then we are expecting
23 another interesting day of hearing tomorrow. We have to adjourn now and
24 resume tomorrow at 9.00 in this courtroom.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.
1 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 23rd day of
2 September, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.