Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5720

 1                           Wednesday, 22 September 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon to everybody.

 6             Mr. Vanderpuye, is the next witness ready?  Which is in fact not

 7     the next witness.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, good afternoon to you, Mr. President.  Good

 9     afternoon, Your Honours, and everybody.

10             The next witness is ready.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  He should be brought in, please.

12                           [The witness entered court]

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon, Mr. Janc.  Please sit down.

14             THE WITNESS:  Good afternoon.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  A long time ago, you have already been here in

16     this trial.  And, therefore, I have to remind you that the affirmation to

17     tell the truth you made at the beginning of your testimony is still --

18     applies.

19             THE WITNESS:  I understand, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And I understood the Prosecution that we are back

21     in examination-in-chief.  And it's up to you, Mr. Vanderpuye, to examine

22     the witness.

23             Mr. Vanderpuye.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr.  President.  I apologise for the

25     delay.

Page 5721

 1                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 2                           WITNESS:  DUSAN JANC [Resumed]

 3                           Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye: [Continued]

 4        Q.   Good afternoon to you, Mr. Janc.

 5        A.   Good afternoon.

 6        Q.   We have to interrupt your cross-examination for some more direct

 7     examination as you know.  And what we plan to do today is to introduce

 8     seven video-clips during the course of your testimony, as you also know.

 9             Have you had an opportunity to review these videos?

10        A.   Yes, indeed.  I have had the opportunity to review all these

11     videos.  Some of them during -- as a member of the team of the Srebrenica

12     investigation team, investigative team, and some of them even upon first

13     arrival at the OTP so in 2009.

14        Q.   All right.  Just for the record, Your Honours, these videos - and

15     I will show them - are P236, 65 ter 1396, 65 ter 5508, P681, 65 ter 2436,

16     5499, and 5498.

17             Mr. Janc, in the course of preparing for your testimony here

18     today and -- have you had an opportunity to determine the circumstances

19     under which the Prosecution came into possession of this video material?

20     Just generally, and we'll get into it more specifically a little bit

21     further on.

22        A.   Yes.  That's also true.  Generally, I got familiarized myself

23     from -- with the -- with the background of information on how the

24     Prosecution obtained these videos, from which sources, when, and also

25     some authentic issues have been taken into consideration when preparing

Page 5722

 1     for this testimony here.  So, in general term, yes, I am aware --

 2        Q.   And can you tell us just --

 3        A.   -- of this information.

 4        Q.   -- generally what types of documents or material you reviewed in

 5     relation to that effort.

 6        A.   Yes, since most of the stuff, we will be viewing during my

 7     testimony is -- was obtained by the authorities -- official authorities

 8     in the former Yugoslavia, in particular Serbian authorities and BiH

 9     authorities, and they provided us with the accompanying documentation on

10     how they obtained these videos in first place, from which places, from

11     which locations, from which individuals.  And this is first set of

12     documents I have reviewed.

13             Then for some of the videos, we -- there is particular one video

14     which we obtained from -- from a confidential source, and in relation to

15     that one, I -- I reviewed information or statement which was provided by

16     this confidential source in relation to that video.  Also, a declaration

17     from investigator was drafted in relation to that video, so this is the

18     third source of this documentation which I reviewed.

19             And also, different statements from -- from individuals involved,

20     involved or -- yeah, which we can see on the videos, and we'll discuss

21     every -- every single one in detail when we -- we watch them.

22        Q.   All right then.  What I'd like to do then is I'd like to get

23     started, and we have a video which we have indicated here as 12 July in

24     Vlasenica.  Are you familiar with that one?

25        A.   Yes.  And this is our first video on our list today which we will

Page 5723

 1     reviewing, yes.

 2        Q.   And before we play it, can you just give us a little bit of

 3     context.  Tell us who is featured in it and perhaps you can tell us a

 4     little bit about when the events depicted in it occurred.

 5        A.   Yes.  What we will be watching today is just an excerpt of the

 6     longer video which was -- which the OTP obtained in 2009, so we have just

 7     made a video-clip of some portion from that video.  We will see mainly

 8     the speech of the General Milenko Zivanovic, who was at that time still

 9     the Drina Corps commander.  And it is about the celebration of the Saint

10     Patrons' Day on the 12th of July 1995, and this celebration is taking

11     place at the Zvonko Bajagic's apartment in Vlasenica.  Zvonko Bajagic, he

12     was a second lieutenant at that time for Drina Corps logistic -- logistic

13     department, and he has been hosting this lunch.  And before the lunch

14     took place, General Zivanovic has made a speech regarding the recent

15     events in relation to the fall of Srebrenica.  Also, we will see on the

16     video Zvonko Bajagic and the priest Vasilije Kacavenda.  At the dinner

17     there were also other -- other members of the VRS involved, present, and

18     we can discuss this later on.

19        Q.   I thank you very much for that introduction.  I guess we'd like

20     to go ahead and play the video now.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before we do that, let me put a question to the

22     witness, please.

23             You have said we made a video-clip of some portion of that video.

24     Could you tell us a little bit about the source from where you were able

25     to obtain this video?  If that is possible.

Page 5724

 1             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour, I can, and when preparing for

 2     this testimony, the plan was that we discuss the sources for each and

 3     single one, every single video when we reviewed the video, but can I tell

 4     you about the source already.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It would be helpful for the Chamber but I think

 6     for the other participants as well to know in advance the source of the

 7     single video we are looking at.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  No problem.  I will do it that way.  Thank you

 9     very much, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:

12        Q.   Okay, Mr. Janc, could you tell us then specifically about the

13     source of the video that we're about to see.

14        A.   Yes.  The OTP obtained this video from the Serbian authorities in

15     March of 2009, exactly on 27 of March 2009, and it came -- it came from

16     the Serbian MUP, which seized this VHS tape during the search conducted

17     on 4th of December, 2008, at the premises of the General Ratko Mladic's

18     son apartment in Belgrade.  And, yes, on 27 of March, 2009, our

19     investigator Tomasz Blaszczyk went down to Belgrade and obtained this

20     particular videotape from Serbian authorities.

21        Q.   All right.  If I could just show you 65 ter 6577.

22                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wish to say for the record which

25     Serb authority are meant, whether those in the Republika Srpska or those

Page 5725

 1     in Serbia, because there are several Serb authorities.

 2             So I would like that to be clear for the record, and there are

 3     several MUPs too.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed, Mr. Tolimir, I am of the same opinion.

 5     That would been one of my questions as well.

 6             Could you clarify that.

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I actually have the document which I will show

 8     Mr. Janc, Mr. President.  I think the document speaks for itself and will

 9     clarify the issue.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, that would be helpful.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:

12        Q.   The first document that I have, though, on the screen, and that

13     is 65 ter 6577, can you tell us what that is, Mr. Janc?

14        A.   Yes.  This is information report which was prepared by my

15     colleague investigator Blaszczyk in relation to the -- how he received

16     this -- this -- this tape from the Serbian authorities.  And we can see

17     here that he was in Belgrade and that he received this stuff from the

18     Office of the Serbian War Crime Prosecutor.  So these are authorities of

19     the Republic of Serbia.

20        Q.   Now, I don't -- we don't have a --

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you please repeat the document number.  It

22     was not recorded.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Oh, thank you, Mr. President.  It was

24     65 ter 6577.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

Page 5726

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  And I believe we don't have a translation of

 2     this document.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And we have to correct the number on page 5, line

 4     14, then there is a wrong number recorded.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  For this document, you mean.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yeah.

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Nyambe has a question.

 9             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Yes.  To the witness, and maybe to Mr. Vanderpuye

10     eventually, page 5, line 11:

11             "And, yes, on 27th of March, 2009, our investigator

12     Tomasz Blaszczyk went down to Belgrade and obtained this particular tape

13     from Serbian authorities."

14             My question to you is what is your connection, Witness to this

15     document.  Since it's the other investigator who went to collect it from

16     Serbia -- Serbian authorities?

17             THE WITNESS:  Perhaps to this document I have no direct

18     connection, but before that we obtained from Serbian authorities the

19     electronic version of the documents and VHS tapes which were digitalised

20     by the Serbian authorities in the meantime, and we received this

21     electronic material at the end of the actually -- in the middle of

22     March 2009, and we reviewed all this stuff initially here which was on

23     DVDs, and we have made a list of the stuff of the highest priority for

24     the Office of the Prosecution, and that's why Thomas Blaszczyk went down

25     to Belgrade and collect initial sets of documents and VHS tapes from

Page 5727

 1     Serbian War Crime Prosecutor's office.

 2             Later on, they provided us, I mean Serbian authorities, with all

 3     the other additional stuff which was also seized during the search of

 4     General Mladic's apartment in Belgrade.  So in this sense I would --

 5     because we will see on the page which follows that Mr. Blaszczyk explains

 6     what -- which tape -- which tapes he received or he obtained at this

 7     point in time, and I can say that I reviewed all these tapes, and I

 8     familiarised myself as a member of the Srebrenica team, so that's how I

 9     see the connection to this particular document.

10             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

11             THE WITNESS:  This is just, in my view, to be meant to show the

12     chain of custody how did we get the material from the source and how we

13     handled it here at the OTP.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, carry on, please.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr.  President.

16             If we could just go briefly to the first page of this document.

17     I see that we're on the second page.

18        Q.   On the first page of the document, and I did note that we didn't

19     have a translation of it but I wanted to read the header into it so that

20     Mr. Tolimir is fully apprised much its contents.  It's entitled:

21     "International Criminal Tribunal for the Prosecution of Persons

22     Responsible for Serious Violations of International Law Committed in the

23     Territory of the Former Yugoslavia Since 1991."  It's an information

24     report.  It's dated 1st April 2009.  And its subject matter indicates

25     "chain of custody of the documents (notebooks and VHS tapes received from

Page 5728

 1     the Office of the War Crimes Prosecutor in Belgrade Serb)."

 2             And in the first paragraph it indicates that on 27 March 2009 in

 3     Belgrade, as the witness has testified, the following documents were

 4     handed over to me, that's Mr. Blaszczyk, which were seized by the Serbian

 5     MUP on 4 December 2008 in several premises used by Ratko Mladic and his

 6     family.

 7             On the second page, if we can go briefly, I think the witness can

 8     then explain what he was referring to about the circumstances or the

 9     materials, I should say, relevant to the videotape which is P236 that

10     we're go doing play that Mr. Blaszczyk received.

11             So if you could just direct us to the paragraphs that concern the

12     videotapes that we're going to see, beginning the one that we will start

13     with, P236, given the date of 12 July 1995.  Do you see that reference in

14     this document?

15        A.   Yes, I can see that on this page.  It's actually paragraph 8 or

16     the last paragraph on this page.  And you can see, for example, what --

17     what -- what is the content on the tape itself.  And here is written

18     everything what was on that tape.  And as I already mentioned, we have --

19     we have just extracted the portion which we are interested in, which

20     is -- yeah.  You can see the fourth line in this paragraph where it says

21     "General Zivanovic made a speech related to the liberation of

22     Srebrenica."

23             He said that at 1620 hours on the previous day, they put Serbian

24     flag on Serbian church in Srebrenica.

25             And then later on you -- you have explained what other contents

Page 5729

 1     on this same VHS tapes are.

 2             Towards the end of this paragraph, it is the fourth line from the

 3     end, you can see the sentence which starts:

 4             "This VHS tape was marked by Serbian MUP with number 97."  On the

 5     tape -- on the tape's label is written "A-54."  And on the tape's box:

 6     "Srebrenica, Snimljeno, 12th of July, 1995 ..." and so on.

 7             So why is this important?  Because we have also received from --

 8     from the authorities of the Republic of Serbia the report about the

 9     content on the -- on the videos.  They have also reviewed all this

10     material and they have made, prepared a report on what can be seen on

11     these videos, and since many of those videotapes have been seized during

12     the search at the Mladic's premises, they were, I think, around 100

13     tapes.  They were marked by these specific numbers.  So this one was

14     marked as number 97, and -- yeah, you can see from the -- from the --

15     from the text here itself that it is -- it is dated 12th of July.  The

16     events which are on the tape are taking place on 12 of July, 1995.

17        Q.   While we're on the subject, I also wanted to refer you to

18     paragraph 7, and at paragraph 7 refers to a tape containing clips of a

19     military parade and it says here of setting up the manoeuvre brigade of

20     the Drina Corps.  This is also a tape that we're planning to show.  Did

21     you have an opportunity to review this entry in Mr. Blaszczyk's

22     information report and what can you -- if you have, what can you tell us

23     about it?

24        A.   Yes, that's correct.  I also reviewed this part of his report,

25     and also the VHS tape itself, and, yeah, when the reviewing this

Page 5730

 1     paragraph I spotted one mistake Mr. Blaszczyk has made, and it is in

 2     relation to the tape number, which is here number 28, but the correct

 3     number should be 29.  So, the VHS tape number 28 is related to the tape

 4     under paragraph 6, the first paragraph on this page, and you can see that

 5     he marked it or he put number 28 also for that tape in that paragraph.

 6             So here it should be 29.

 7        Q.   Thank you for that.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I'd like to tender this document.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be marked for identification, pending

10     translation.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'd like to have the witness shown 65 --

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One moment, please.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 6577 will be Exhibit P1016 marked for

14     identification.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I would like to the witness, please, shown 65

16     ter 6578.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to correct line 24.  It's not -- the

18     words "pending translation" are missing.

19             Please carry on.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr.  President.

21        Q.   Okay.  We're go to have to go to page -- I think it should be 22

22     in the B/C/S.  Anyway, it should be 65 ter ending 7841 -- I'm sorry, ERN

23     ending 7841.  That's good.  That's fine right here.

24                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  All right.  If we can go -- can go to the next

Page 5731

 1     page, please, in the B/C/S.  One page following.  And I think we'll be on

 2     the same page.

 3                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I understand we need the translation for

 5     0677-7841.  Now I see some head shaking going on over there.

 6        Q.   Mr. Janc, are you able to read this or ...

 7        A.   Yes, I can read this, perhaps rather slowly but I know what this

 8     document is --

 9        Q.   Yes.  Let's do it like that.  Can you identify for us what this

10     document is.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  First we should remove the English text because

12     it is nothing related to the B/C/S version.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, you're right.  Thank you, Mr.  President.

14             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  And we do have this English translation

15     because I have seen that one.  But this is actually the report that I

16     have been testifying about, dated 3rd of February, 2009, prepared by the

17     Ministry of the Internal Affairs of the Republic of Serbia about the

18     content of the seized material with -- with Ratko Mladic's son apartment,

19     and this index where you can see labelled by numbers has been provided to

20     the OTP on 4th of February, 2009, so the day after this document, and at

21     that time they haven't provided us any -- any of the -- the tapes and any

22     of the stuff which was seized.  Just that was information for us on what

23     they -- they seized.

24        Q.   Thank you for that.  And if we could go to page -- should be four

25     pages up.

Page 5732

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now we have the translation.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Okay.  And if we could go to page 4 of the

 3     translation, it should correspond to the -- to the B/C/S as well.  Should

 4     be ERN ending 7 -- 7844, I believe.

 5             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  And I would like to make one remark because

 6     we can see here DVD marked as certain number.  What was done was that all

 7     this stuff when it was received or seized and then later on reviewed at

 8     the MUP premises, was digitalised, and -- and that's why we see here on

 9     DVD instead of VHS tape.  So -- but when it says marked with such and

10     such number, this number correspond to the number which was on the VHS

11     tape.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:

13        Q.   Thank you very much for that, Mr. Janc.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If we could just go to the fourth page of the

15     translation, and I think it should correspond -- I think it should be the

16     fourth page also in the B/C/S.

17        Q.   I want to direct your attention if I could to item number 20, and

18     we'll catch up in the B/C/S in a moment.  I think we have it now.

19             Will you tell us a little bit about item number 20.

20        A.   Yes.  But the B/C/S is not the -- the correct page.

21                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  All right.  Looks like we may have to go back 20

23     pages up, I think, in the B/C/S or so.  It should be 7844, ERN.

24             Page 26?  It's page 26 of the B/C/S.

25                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

Page 5733

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Previous page, please.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Previous page.  Yep.  All right --

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now we need the English translation back.  We had

 4     it on this screen.  It just disappeared.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  All right.  I think we've got it.

 6        Q.   Thanks very much, Mr. Janc.  Can you tell us about item number

 7     20.

 8        A.   Yes.  As you can see here it says DVD marked 29, so this is the

 9     number which would correspond to what I testified before, to

10     paragraph number 7 in Blaszczyk's report.  So -- and it says here what is

11     the content of this DVD or actually VHS tape which was seized and that's

12     the video we will be watching today.

13        Q.   All right.  If I could just refer you to page number 7 in the

14     translation, which will hopefully correspond to page 28 or 29 in the

15     B/C/S.  In any event, I'm going to refer you to item number 52.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It's not the correct page in B/C/S but in

17     English.  Please back the English version and one further page in B/C/S.

18                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think next page in English.  Mr. Vanderpuye

20     asked for item 52.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  It's the right page in the English.  It's the

22     wrong page in the B/C/S.  It should be the next page in the B/C/S,

23     Mr. President.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, the previous page.  We need item number 52.

25                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

Page 5734

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I was told that there is no item 52 in the

 2     document in B/C/S.  There's no page in between.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  All right.  Well, then it appears there's page

 4     missing in the uploaded document.  All right.  Well, I think we can

 5     manage through it.

 6        Q.   Basically, can you tell us what item 52 concerns.

 7        A.   Yes.  Similar as previous one, item 52 concerns to the DVD marked

 8     tape 52 and it says here what is -- what was on tape, actually, and we

 9     will be watching part of this video as I think the last one in -- in my

10     testimony, and it is about the celebration of new years eve on 13th of

11     January, 1996.  And this tape was not taken on 27 of March in Belgrade.

12     Mr. Blaszczyk did not take with him back to The Hague this tape because

13     at that time this wasn't considered as a priority tape, but it was

14     provided to us, the original tape was provided to us, by the authorities

15     of the Republic of Serbia at the beginning of April 2009.

16        Q.   Thank you for that, Mr. Janc.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  For the record, Mr. President, item 52 concerns

18     65 ter 5498, which is the 13 January 1996 speech.  If we can go to page

19     11 in the translation, and we'll be looking for item number 84, which,

20     with any luck, will be two pages forward in the B/C/S.  It should be page

21     29 of the B/C/S.

22             At the bottom of the page in the B/C/S and in the English, it's

23     the second-to-last paragraph.

24        Q.   Can you tell us about this item?

25        A.   Yes, this is the VHS tape marked as 97 which we are about to

Page 5735

 1     watch in a few minutes, so it is about the Patron's Saint Day, as can you

 2     see from the description, on 12th of July 1995.

 3        Q.   Thank you for that.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I would offer this document into

 5     evidence as well.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received but the correct compilation

 7     of pages should be checked again and, if necessary, uploaded into

 8     e-court.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr.  President.

10        Q.   I just want to show you one other document before we play the

11     video, and it should be very brief.  It's 65 ter --

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We need the exhibit number first.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  [Overlapping speakers]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 6578 will be Exhibit P1017.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.  I would just like to have the

16     witness shown briefly 65 ter 6579.

17             We have I believe an English translation beginning where we see

18     the list in the B/C/S in the second paragraph.

19        Q.   Can you tell us, first of all, do you recognise this document?

20        A.   Yes.  This document which accompanying -- which is a -- actually

21     their letter accompanying the original stuff sent to -- to the OTP.

22     Original stuff, I'm referring to -- to the one seized during the search

23     on 4th of December, 2008.

24        Q.   Okay.  And we can see in the first paragraph there's a reference

25     to 27 March 2009.  Does that correspond to your information concerning

Page 5736

 1     the materials that were turned over to Mr. Blaszczyk?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And if I could, if we could just refer to the last page of this

 4     document?

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You just referred, Mr. Vanderpuye, to the first

 6     paragraph.  We didn't see it in English on the screen, only in B/C/S.

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  You're right, Mr. President.  Apparently the

 8     very first paragraph and the title of the document itself hasn't been

 9     translated.  The list that accompanies the inventory was translated and

10     that's what we're seeing now.  I'll arrange to have the first page of the

11     document also translated so that we have a complete record of what it is.

12     But, in particular, I was referring the witness to the last page of a

13     document.

14        Q.   And I just direct your attention to the indication here as to the

15     items received by Tomasz Blaszczyk.  You can see how it's spelled there,

16     but did you have an opportunity to review this document?

17        A.   Yes, I did.

18        Q.   And have confirmed with Mr. Blaszczyk that in fact he received

19     the materials that are indicated in it?

20        A.   Yes, indeed, he received all this material on that day, which

21     was, I think, 6th of April, 2009, and then he brought it here in

22     The Hague by car.

23        Q.   Okay.  And do have you personal knowledge of that?  I mean, did

24     you acquire that from speaking to him and have you seen the material

25     itself?

Page 5737

 1        A.   Yes, of course, I talked to him about this stuff, and when this

 2     material was here, I was very much involved in reviewing all this stuff.

 3        Q.   Okay.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Janc, may I add a question.  Do you know if

 5     there are different copies of this document?  Not different but several

 6     copies of this document?

 7             THE WITNESS:  I'm not aware of that.  But since I see the

 8     original stamp here, I would doubt there is additional -- additional

 9     original document.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I put this question to you because I don't see a

11     signature of Mr. Blaszczyk.

12             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour, are you right.  Most probably

13     Mr. Blaszczyk did not sign this copy of it, because this copy was for us,

14     for the OTP, and most probably will find the other original in Belgrade

15     with the War Crime Prosecutor, where he signed this -- on this document.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Was that the normal procedure the OTP followed,

17     that those who have given documents to the OTP received a receipt of

18     these documents?

19             THE WITNESS:  Yes, indeed this is quite normal procedure for the

20     OTP.  Yes, indeed.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

22             Mr. Vanderpuye go ahead.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr.  President.  I would tender this

24     document at this time.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be marked for identification, pending

Page 5738

 1     full translation of the document.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr.  President.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 6579 will be Exhibit P1018, marked for

 4     identification.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  With that, I would like to play the videotape,

 6     which is P236.  And I understand that the transcripts have been uploaded.

 7     And it is a subtitled video, so there shouldn't be a need for

 8     interpretation.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you I just asked to stop the video for a

11     moment.

12        Q.   If we could identify the people that are in this video, Mr. Janc,

13     in this frame?

14        A.   Yes.  The speaker on the right left-hand side, as I already

15     explained, it is General Milenko Zivanovic; at that time, still the

16     commander of the Drina Corps.  Next to it, it's a man in white -- white

17     shirt, I think he was a waiter at that time, just a non-important person

18     for us.

19             So then we have to the -- at the top right corner we just see a

20     little bit of his face, but throughout the video can you see him better.

21     This is Mr. Zvonko Bajagic who is hosting this event.  And underneath at

22     the bottom right corner, you can see the priest Vasilije Kacavenda.

23        Q.   Thank you.  We'll just play it out and I'll have a couple of

24     other questions for you.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And you should indicate where you stopped this

Page 5739

 1     video.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I think we have an

 3     indication of 40.22.1 on the counter.  I'm not sure that it's consistent

 4     with the version that we have in e-court.  But, for the record anyway, I

 5     think this is clear enough.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  40 minutes, 22.1 seconds.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I would like to offer in this --

10     well, it is in evidence so I won't offer it in but --

11        Q.   We have an indication here, Mr. Janc, of a date of 12 July.  Can

12     you tell in the context of this video how that determination was made?

13        A.   Yes, we can see from the video itself, from the speech of

14     Mr. Zivanovic itself, when he is talking about the liberation of

15     Srebrenica the day before.  That's one indication that is indeed

16     happening on 12th of July.  And if you look into the entire video, before

17     that we have some ceremony going on in church in Vlasenica, and later on

18     in municipality in Vlasenica.  And everything is relation to this Saint

19     Patrons [sic] Day which is also on 12 of July.

20        Q.   And did you notice also an indication as to an air attack which

21     occurred, as he puts it, "yesterday"?  Does the investigation that you've

22     engaged in in relation to these events, is it consistent with the date of

23     this video being taken on the 12th of July, 1995?

24        A.   Yes, indeed.  There was an air attack on 11th of July.  And it's

25     another corroboration.

Page 5740

 1        Q.   Does the investigation indicate or, rather, support

 2     General Zivanovic's assertion that a flag was raised in Srebrenica on the

 3     11th of July?

 4        A.   Yes.  That's also the case.  We have -- we have information

 5     documents and also I think intercepts when General Gvero is talking to

 6     President Karadzic about this specific issue, about raising the flag on

 7     the church in Srebrenica.

 8        Q.   All right.  I'd like to go to the next video footage.  We are

 9     going through this chronologically.  But before we do, let me first

10     identify to you so that you know what we are talking about, we have an

11     indicated date of 13 July, 1995, and for the record it's 65 ter 1396.

12             Do you have a familiarity with this particular video?

13        A.   Yes, I have.  And I reviewed also this one, and I think this

14     was -- I reviewed that one at the time when it -- it came into our

15     office, and it is a short video-clip of General Ratko Mladic being in

16     Srebrenica town on 13 of July, 1995.  First, he gives a short speech in

17     front of the Orthodox church in Srebrenica.  Then we have priest which is

18     inside this church, and he indicates that we are on that day, on -- in

19     Srebrenica.  So on 13 of July in Srebrenica.

20             And then we have a General Mladic going to meet a Serb woman who

21     returned back to Srebrenica, and he -- he meets her there asking her

22     about -- about the destiny of her husband and kids, and together with him

23     at that spot we'll see there is again Zvonko Bajagic, the same individual

24     who hosted the lunch on the video we just -- we just saw, and also

25     Colonel Petar Salapura.  He is also there.  He is an intelligence officer

Page 5741

 1     of the VRS Main Staff.  And as for the background, how we -- we got this

 2     video, the OTP made a request for the search to be conducted at the

 3     residence of VRS Main Staff press officer, I think at that time he was a

 4     colonel, Milutin Milo -- Miladin Milutinovic, sorry.  And, indeed, search

 5     was conducted by the members of the ministry of internal affairs of the

 6     Republika Srpska, Bosnia and Herzegovina, in Banja Luka on 22nd of July,

 7     2009, and during this search, this tape was also seized.

 8             Later on, it was handed over by the members of the MUP of the

 9     Republika Srpska to the BiH State Court in Sarajevo in Bosnia, who handed

10     over these original tapes to us on 25th of August, 2009.  And we

11     digitalised all these tapes with co-operation of the EUFOR forces in

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina and then the original tapes were returned back to the

13     BiH State Court, but what we have got here at -- into our house was just

14     a DVD made of these VHS tapes, and so that's what we have here in

15     evidence.  It is actually the DVD which was digitised from these VHS

16     tapes.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  If I could just have the witness shown, please,

18     65 ter 6582.

19        Q.   Do you recognise this --

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President?

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I stop you for a moment, please.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

Page 5742

 1                           [Defence counsel confer]

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, we have discussed two questions.

 3             The first one is a question to the witness:  Could you tell us

 4     how you were able to identify the people depicted in the -- the last

 5     video we have seen?  You said this is General Zivanovic; this is the

 6     waiter.  How did you know that?  What is the source of your knowledge

 7     about the identification of these people?

 8             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour, I can explain.

 9             Throughout my work as investigator here for Srebrenica team, I

10     have reviewed many statement, many videos and many -- many other

11     documents, and throughout this investigation, I got familiar of -- got

12     familiar regarding certain individuals, especially, of course, the

13     individuals which are VRS members.  So you should always get familiarised

14     as investigator and be interested in who you are seeing on every single

15     video or every single evidence you come across during your investigation.

16     And that was the way how I learnt, although I never personally met

17     General Zivanovic, he was interviewed by the OTP several times.  I -- I

18     reviewed his statement and, for example, you can see when the videos or

19     some documents or photos were shown to him where he identifies himself,

20     for example, and also throughout the investigation we interviewed many

21     other peoples, people where they were identifying these people.

22             So that's the source of information, how I know who these people

23     are.

24             For example, for Zvonko Bajagic, for that one, I am -- I got

25     aware first time who this individual is when he testified here for

Page 5743

 1     Defence in Popovic case.  That was -- although he has been seen on

 2     various videos from before, we have never actually identified him before

 3     and when he was here, we identified him through these means.

 4             So -- yeah.  And these are basically, basically the -- the ways

 5     how I am able to say who these people are.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Did you confront any person with this video and

 7     ask any person; and, if so, whom who can -- could identify the people

 8     depicted in the video?

 9             THE WITNESS:  For this particular video, I cannot say if we

10     confronted anyone with this video.  It's possible.  But I cannot say from

11     the top -- I would need to check, and I think for -- exactly for these

12     purposes how we identify each and every single one.  My colleague

13     investigator Erin Gallagher is preparing right now, who will be

14     testifying about the video stills taken from these videos and where these

15     individuals will be depicted again, and she will, I think, let you know

16     how we identified them, through which -- through which means, through

17     which statement, through which individuals.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You referred to the man sitting on the right side

19     on the video as priest and you mentioned a name.  I heard in the video

20     the speaker saying, I am glad that the bishop is with us.  How would you

21     explain the difference between bishop and priest?

22             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour, I do apologise.  It's -- indeed

23     it's not a priest because according to the church there are several

24     different levels of -- of -- of the church officials, and the priest is,

25     I think, a lower level.  But this individual is -- yeah, it can be

Page 5744

 1     bishop.  It is one from -- from the higher echelon of this church.  But

 2     I'm not that familiar with the church structure.  So he is for sure not

 3     just a priest.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Are you saying that every bishop is a priest but

 5     not every priest a bishop?

 6             THE WITNESS:  I do apologise, Your Honour.  I don't know the --

 7     the exact differences between them, so I'm afraid I cannot respond to --

 8     to this question.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, I would like to ask you, because

10     we discussed it among us, why are you showing this video and perhaps the

11     other videos through this witness?  What is the relation between this

12     witness and the videos?

13             Perhaps can you elaborate on that a little bit further.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Sure, thanks Mr.  President.

15             We're showing this sequence of videos through this witness

16     because this witness is an investigator with the Srebrenica trial team,

17     has familiarity with the course of the investigation, the individuals

18     that are depicted in the -- in the videos, the context in which -- or the

19     context that is presented in the videos in relation to the events on the

20     ground, which is within the ken of this witness's expertise, knowledge,

21     and experience, and he has familiarity with the chain of custody

22     concerning these videos which I know is an issue that the Court is

23     interested in and certainly has been interested in with respect to other

24     witnesses.

25             So that's the reason why it's coming in through this witness.

Page 5745

 1     Doesn't mean necessarily that it might not come in through other

 2     witnesses as well or other witnesses may comment on it, but I think that

 3     this witness's familiarity with the investigation, the players that are

 4     involved that are depicted in the video, the circumstances that the video

 5     is involved, and the context in which the footage -- in which the footage

 6     was taken, and ultimately delivered to the Office of the Prosecutor and

 7     then developed, analysed and -- and introduced to the Court is within

 8     his -- is certainly within his -- within his knowledge and abilities, and

 9     that's the reason why it is coming in through him.

10             You may opine, and can I see by the expression on your face, that

11     it might be more appropriate to introduce the videos through other

12     witnesses and I agree that that may be true, but I don't think that that

13     necessarily is the only avenue through which the video can come into this

14     case, and I think as the case develops and as the evidence comes in you

15     will be able to see more clearly why it is that we can -- why it is

16     introduced through this witness and how it's also relevant to other

17     witnesses as they come in.

18             So that, in a nutshell, is -- is our position on it with respect

19     to this witness.  It could come in through Mr. Blaszczyk, it could come

20     in through Ms. Gallagher.  It could come in through Mr. Bajagic, if he

21     comes back.  It could come in through General Zivanovic.  It could come

22     in through Petar Salapura, who is depicted in one of these videos.  It

23     could come in through a -- from a number of sources, but I think given

24     the scheduling, the timing of the presentation of evidence that this is

25     an appropriate avenue for which -- to introduce the material.

Page 5746

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 2             Judge Nyambe has a question.

 3             JUDGE NYAMBE:  I think, Mr. Vanderpuye, you have answered the

 4     question I was going to put to, that you are just taking us in a

 5     roundabout way through the witness hopefully something that you would be

 6     able to give us through, according to this witness's evidence,

 7     Mr. Tomasz Blaszczyk.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Blaszczyk, yes.

 9             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Yes.  I thought that would have been the

10     appropriate witness in view of the fact that what you are trying to do

11     here, which is correct, is to establish the chain of custody because it

12     is him who had links with the actual people who gave him -- it gives us

13     difficult -- for example, this witness was saying the other person in the

14     video in a white shirt is a waiter.  Now, he was not at that function,

15     and the video does not confirm to me that that person is a waiter because

16     a waiter would come and serve you drinks and go, but that one is there

17     throughout.  So those are some of the difficulties we have, but I -- I

18     agree you can go with this -- this way.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I appreciate your observation, Your Honour, and

20     I would point out also that this is excerpt of the -- of the larger

21     video.  There is more footage which shows the service of drinks, it shows

22     a benediction by this priest or bishop, and -- which would put some of

23     Mr. Janc's testimony, I think, in better context.  But the video itself

24     is quite lengthy, and I think in order to establish that context it would

25     take, well, a substantial amount of time in order to -- in order to do

Page 5747

 1     that.  But certainly Mr. Janc's conclusions, and I don't want to testify,

 2     but they're not without foundation in the context of the broader video.

 3     But I do appreciate it, because I appreciate your concern, because you

 4     can't see that on the video.  And perhaps can I elicit this information

 5     from Mr. Janc with respect to the other videos I will show him so maybe

 6     we can have better context and you can see more directly the relevance of

 7     the conclusions that he has drawn.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for your additional

 9     explanations, and, indeed, at a later stage we will put all these

10     information together.

11             Please carry on.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President.  I think I had a document up on

13     the screen.  Just a moment.

14                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, it was 6582.  Thank you, Ms. Stewart.

16        Q.   Yes, Mr. Janc, could you tell us a little bit about this document

17     in relation to the video that we're about to see of -- regarding 13

18     July 1995.

19        A.   Yes.  This is a report of the Republika Srpska Ministry of

20     Interior, crime investigation department about the search of the

21     apartment of the Milutinovic, Milovan, conducted on 22nd July in 2009 in

22     Banja Luka.

23             So -- and we can see down there they have listed the items they

24     seized during the search.  And on the next page, we'll see additional

25     ones.

Page 5748

 1        Q.   All right.  If we could just go to the next page briefly.

 2             All right.  Can you tell us about this?  These are the other

 3     items that were recovered during the course of the search?

 4        A.   Yes.  These are the additional items.

 5        Q.   Okay.  And were these items delivered to the Office of the

 6     Prosecutor, as far as you're aware?

 7        A.   As far as I am aware, they were all sent to the BiH State Court

 8     first, and from them, we received these items on 25th of August, 2009.

 9        Q.   And on the 25th of August, 2009, with respect to these item, I

10     take it you were employed by the OTP?

11        A.   Yes, indeed.

12        Q.   Did you have anything to do with the items that were received as

13     a result of this search?

14        A.   Yes.  The same as for the items with the search in Belgrade, I

15     also reviewed the DVDs and -- yeah, the DVDs which were seized with this

16     search.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President I would offer this document into

18     evidence.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1019.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.  I'd like to show the witness 65 ter

22     6581, and we can get through this one just before the break, I think.

23        Q.   Mr. Janc, do you recognise this document?

24        A.   Yes, I do.  It's acknowledgment of receipt of these documents

25     from 25th of July, when they were taken over from the BiH State Court by

Page 5749

 1     our Sarajevo field office investigator, Paul Grady.

 2        Q.   And -- I'm sorry.

 3        A.   And it relates to the documents which were seized during the

 4     search of Milovan Milutinovic's apartment.  And we can see that there I'm

 5     referring to a reference number 02/2-19/09, dated 22nd of July, 2009, and

 6     this same reference number was referred into the report we have just seen

 7     before.

 8        Q.   Thank you for that.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I would also tender this document

10     into evidence.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1020.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I see that it's time for the

14     break.  I'd like to play the video as soon as we come back, with your

15     leave.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

17             We have to -- we must have our first break now, and we will

18     resume at quarter past 4.00.

19             We adjourn.

20                           --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 4.19 p.m.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye, please go ahead.

23             Oh, sorry, I didn't see that.  Mr. Tolimir.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Peace

25     unto this house and for all those present.  May God's will be done in

Page 5750

 1     these proceedings and may the outcome be as God wishes not as I wish.

 2             I didn't want to exert any pressure on Mr. Vanderpuye, but I

 3     think that it would be much more appropriate to prove the authenticity of

 4     the videos through those present, that is Zivanovic, Salapura, and the

 5     others.  So they are the persons that should be asked.  We have nothing

 6     against bringing them.  But, on the other hand, we are not opposed to

 7     using a document marked for identification.  I don't want to interfere

 8     with Mr. Vanderpuye's job, but please bear in mind our position on this

 9     as well.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed, Mr. Tolimir.  Before the break, we had a

11     discussion which -- in which way, with which witness the videos should be

12     introduced.  For today, I think we have received enough explanation by

13     Mr. Vanderpuye.

14             You should proceed.  And if there's any need about additional

15     evidence, about their source and the content of such a video, you should

16     consider that.

17             Please go ahead.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.  I think I

19     have to tell you that 65 ter 6578, this, I think, is the document with

20     the missing page has been corrected, and I think it's uploaded into

21     e-court now.  I know I that I had moved on to the second video, but I

22     wanted to just go back just briefly for a second to the 12 July one.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Perhaps there is a mistake.  Are you really

Page 5751

 1     referring to 65 ter 6578 or 79?  If I recall that correctly, the missing

 2     translation page was 65 ter 6579.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think it was -- I think it was 6578, and that

 4     was the missing page concerning the entry at -- for item number 52.  I

 5     think -- so I think 6578 is correct, although you have now put some doubt

 6     in my mind.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which P document is it?  Perhaps we can get an

 8     information from the Registrar.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  It's P1017, I understand.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Please carry on.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12        Q.   I just wanted to go back for a moment to the first video that was

13     played, Mr. Janc.

14             And in that video, first, you do see this priest or bishop as has

15     been referred to.  In the video itself, however, the clip that we played,

16     we don't see him doing much, and I wondered if you could explain to the

17     Trial Chamber what, if anything, you observed this bishop doing that's

18     not in the frame, not in the clip that we played?

19        A.   Yes.  The actual tape starts with religious activity ceremony in

20     front of the and inside the church, Orthodox church in Vlasenica, where

21     this same bishop is having a mass there.  And it continues in -- in the

22     municipality building in Vlasenica, again, with some religious

23     activities.

24             So -- and this priest is involved in these activities.

25        Q.   And can you tell us where the Orthodox church in Vlasenica is in

Page 5752

 1     relation to the -- what we can see in the video frame, which you've

 2     identified as the home of Mr. Bajagic?

 3        A.   The Orthodox church in Vlasenica is in city centre, close to the

 4     city centre, yes.  It's a -- and then municipality building is just few

 5     hundred metres away from the church, and the house, Bajagic's house, is

 6     next to the main road Vlasenica-Milici, just outside the -- the Vlasenica

 7     city centre.  So when you go down towards Milici it is on the right-hand

 8     side, just next to the road.

 9        Q.   And we've seen in the video whom you've identified as

10     General Milenko Zivanovic was the commander of the Drina Corps on 12

11     July.  Can you tell us what relationship the town of Vlasenica has to the

12     Drina Corps?

13        A.   Yes.  In Vlasenica, the Drina Corps is actually located, so

14     that's the seat of the Drina Corps.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I wondered if I could invited

16     Court if it had any other questions with respect to this particular video

17     before I moved on to the next one.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, please move on to the next video.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

20             Now we were talking a moment ago about the 13 July video which I

21     think we'll play now.  This was 65 ter 1396.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.  I just stopped the frame for a

24     moment because I was going to ask the witness to identify the individuals

25     that are shown in this frame.

Page 5753

 1        Q.   If you could, Mr. Janc, could you tell us who -- who is depicted

 2     in this particular frame.

 3        A.   Yes, I can.  First, woman from the left in white shirt, she's a

 4     Serb returning back home to Srebrenica.  Behind her we just see the head

 5     of Colonel Petar Salapura, the intelligence officer of the VRS

 6     Main Staff.  Next to it, we see looking on the other side is a man with

 7     blond hair.  He is a body-guard of General Ratko Mladic.  And we see the

 8     man in between General Ratko Mladic and this -- his body-guard, with a

 9     cap on it, he is -- he is Zvonko Bajagic.  And the last man on the

10     right-hand side, is General Ratko Mladic.

11        Q.   All right.  I'll just play the video out and then I'll ask you a

12     little bit more about that.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you tell us, please, what -- how did you

14     find out that these people are depicted in this still?

15             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour, I can.  Regarding the woman, it

16     is from the content of this video we can conclude who that woman is,

17     although we don't know her name.

18             For General Ratko Mladic, it's during the course of the

19     investigation we -- we found who that -- that individual is.

20             And for Petar Salapura, I can say I personally met him here when

21     he was -- during his proofing session for Popovic trial, so I can

22     identify him as being him.

23             We also identified the body-guards when we interviewed him, not

24     me personally, but I think for sure my colleague Blaszczyk.

25             And for Zvonko Bajagic, I already explained, I can also identify

Page 5754

 1     him because, through his testimony here I know him, how he looked like,

 2     so that's how I can -- how I can identify these people.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  We can just play out the video.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just a moment, please, Judge Nyambe has an

 6     additional question.

 7             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Firstly I still have some difficulty why this

 8     video is being played with this witness.  That's -- that problem still

 9     exists.

10             Secondly, he -- he refers to the woman as wearing a shirt.  I

11     think that's a T-shirt.  And there's a big difference between a T-shirt

12     and a shirt.  The least he can do is make the identification correctly.

13     But I still have some basic difficulty why we are seeing this video --

14     I'm not saying it's not -- you should not introduce it, but why through

15     this witness and not through Blaz -- whatever it is and whoever is

16     supposed to produce -- to introduce it.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Your Honour, I understand your concern.  And I

18     think it is really more a matter of -- for the moment, it's a matter of

19     convenience and opportunity in order to play the videotape and introduce

20     it before the Court.  I think that Mr. Janc is just as valid a basis to

21     introduce this video as any other witness would be because of his

22     familiarity and involvement in the investigation and his ability to

23     explain the context and the participants in the video themselves.

24             I take your point with respect to the description that Mr. Janc

25     gave concerning the woman depicted in the video.  However, I think also

Page 5755

 1     that the video functionally speaks for itself.  Mr. Janc's observations

 2     with respect to the videos are not clearly binding on the Court.  The

 3     evidence that we seek to introduce is the video, the substance of the

 4     video itself.  But I think that Mr. Janc's testimony is also valuable to

 5     the court in terms of orienting the Court with respect to the content of

 6     the video, the context of the video, and the people that are actually

 7     depicted in the video.

 8             In this case, you can see, even from the subtitling and from the

 9     transcript of the video, that General Mladic, for example, is identified.

10     And so clearly Mr. Janc's identification of General Mladic is not

11     substantive in this case because the video speaks for itself.  You are

12     right, there are other avenues in which to introduce this video.  There

13     are other mechanisms and vehicles that perhaps the Prosecution could have

14     chosen to use, but I think fundamentally the question is whether or not

15     there's a sufficient basis that resides in Mr. Janc to introduce it, and

16     I think that there is because of his knowledge of the case and his

17     involvement in analysing this material, reviewing this material, as well

18     as his involvement or knowledge of how the material was acquired.

19             You can imagine a certain situation where, for example, material

20     has been turned over to the Prosecutor and the person who turned it over

21     has died or can't be located.  But it -- to the extent that there is a --

22     a sequence of events or chain of events that can establish the provenance

23     of the article through somebody who has reviewed it, somebody who has

24     experience with it, that would be also be an appropriate vehicle to

25     introduce that piece of evidence through, as it would had the person

Page 5756

 1     survived and not disappeared or -- or died.

 2             So I think that that's an appropriate basis upon which to -- to

 3     introduce the evidence.

 4             As I mentioned before, this particular video features

 5     Colonel Petar Salapura, who Mr. Janc has identified as an intelligence

 6     officer, in fact the chief of intelligence, in the VRS Main Staff.  He's

 7     on our witness list, we expect him to testify, and, hopefully, we expect

 8     to be able to play this videotape to him and to have him identify himself

 9     to the court, which I think would probably be the most straightforward

10     authentication of this material, but I don't think it's the only course

11     of action is my point and that's the reason why I think it is appropriate

12     to address the matter through Mr. Janc.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  At the moment we are not in the position to

14     decide about admission of this video into evidence.  We look at it, and

15     this witness is only in the position to testify about his investigation,

16     how he took part in the investigation, and the methods he used during his

17     investigation because he was not an eye-witness and he was not on the

18     spot at that time.

19             Is that correct?

20                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Could you just bear with me for a moment,

22     please.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

25                           [Defence counsel confer]

Page 5757

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr.  President.

 3             Mr. McCloskey has reminded me that Mr. Janc has just testified he

 4     actually met with Colonel Salapura and he is identifying on his --

 5     identifying based on his own personal knowledge on -- of having seen him.

 6     So that's clearly, I think, a sufficient basis in and of itself to

 7     identify this witness -- identify or authenticate this tape.  He is in

 8     the best position to do that because he has personally met

 9     Colonel Salapura.  Colonel Salapura's presence in and around Srebrenica

10     on the 13th of July, 1995, is obviously a significant issue in this case.

11     It's relevant given his relationship to the accused in this case, his

12     subordination to the accused in this case, and the events in the context

13     of the events that were occurring in and around that area on -- on that

14     date and thereafter.

15             So I think that there is a sufficient basis certainly under

16     Rule 85 for the admission of the tape, A, as it -- I think its

17     reliability can be established through the witness and clearly its

18     relevancy to the events in question under the indictment is rather

19     direct.  So I wanted to add that as well.  And I think -- I think that

20     that is a sufficient basis for its admission even at this time.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, again, we are not in a position

22     to decide that now.  We want to see the whole video.  And we would be

23     happy, if you could, distinguish while putting questions to the witness

24     if he personally know -- knows and recognises a person depicted in the

25     video or if he knows it from his investigation by comparing videos with

Page 5758

 1     other videos.  It is important to know what is the source of his personal

 2     knowledge.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Otherwise, we are only on the position to mark it

 5     for identification.  This video, if you want to use it with another

 6     witness, for instance, witness Salapura, you may do that.  At the moment

 7     we are not deciding on that.  We wait for the end of this video.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Okay.  Thank you, Mr. President.  The video is,

 9     I think, only a couple of seconds more, so we'll play it out.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  All right.  That's the end of the video.

12             I would like to revisit the issue of its admissibility obviously

13     now that it is concluded.  But there is one issue that I wanted to

14     address and that was -- I forgot to mention this earlier, is that I

15     realize now that the subtitles are all in English, and I understand that

16     we have not received or we are not receiving any French interpretation of

17     the transcript of the video.  We've asked for that -- we've asked that

18     that not be the case because it would interfere with the audio and even

19     if the language is different the tenor of the conversation, the cadence

20     of the conversation, all of this can affect the evidence.  But I would

21     like to ask whether or not this poses a problem for -- for the Bench not

22     to have the availability of -- of French translation at this time, if can

23     we can proceed as we have been.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Mindua.

25             JUDGE MINDUA:  Yes, I checked.  I was receiving the French

Page 5759

 1     interpretation of the document.  I have it.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  All right.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This problem is solved.

 4             Mr. Vanderpuye.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes it is.  And that's good.

 6             What I'd like to do then is I'd like to tender this video into

 7     evidence on the basis that I have articulated before.  It's 1396.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think the Chamber would like to postpone the

 9     decision about admission of this document.  We have to consider your

10     submission on that, but we will mark it for identification so that we

11     know what we are talking about.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.  I would

13     like to --

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One moment.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 1396 will be Exhibit P1021, marked for

16     identification.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now carry on, please.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19             I'd like to move to the next one, and that's a video that we have

20     here indicating 16 July 1995.

21        Q.   Mr. Janc, do you have familiarity with this particular video?

22        A.   Yes, I have.  I also reviewed this video.  And it -- it shows

23     it's happening in Belgrade in military hospital on 16th of July.  That's

24     first part of the video.  With General Ratko Mladic present, some doctors

25     from the hospital, and a delegation from the -- Canada, and those members

Page 5760

 1     are the members of the humanitarian organisation Serbian Republic from

 2     Canada.  So and they brought -- they donated a medical scanner to this

 3     military hospital in Belgrade at that time.

 4             So General Ratko Mladic is there, and later on, we see, the day

 5     after, on 17 of July, the video from -- from Han -- from Crna Rijeka

 6     actually, with General Ratko Mladic inside the -- the facilities,

 7     military facilities there, together with General Milan Gvero, and also

 8     the same Canadian group of people is present when discussing.

 9             And we obtained this video --

10        Q.   Let me just interrupt you for a moment.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, can we move into private session

12     please.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 5761











11  Pages 5761-5778 redacted. Private session.















Page 5779

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

11             We have to adjourn, and we will resume at quarter past 6.00.

12                           --- Recess taken at 5.49 p.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 6.20 p.m.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President.

16             I think we've -- I think we've pretty much concluded with the

17     last videotape, which was 65 ter 5508, which I will have tendered at this

18     point.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But we will not receive it now but only marked

20     for identification.  We still are concerned about the question of this

21     witness is the right one through -- if this document should be -- the

22     video should be received through this witness.

23             It will be marked for identification.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  One moment, please.

Page 5780

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1022, marked for identification.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I did want to point out that it's my

 3     understanding that the Defence does not have an objection to the

 4     admission of the videos themselves, at least they've not indicated that

 5     to us, and I think I've approached them with respect to whether or not

 6     they had any objections to any of the documents or videos that I would be

 7     using.  But I don't know if they still maintain that position or they

 8     take no position, but I thought that that's a relevant consideration for

 9     the Court.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Chamber is really concerned about that,

11     because we have checked again the summary from our -- from your 65 ter

12     witness list, and we don't see anything about videos to be shown but only

13     results of exhumations of the Srebrenica-related mass graves and the

14     collection of human remains from the surface, so in that way we are

15     really concerned why these videos are shown with this witness.

16             But we shouldn't waste court time.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I understand that.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We will decide that later.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, yes, I understand.  You're referring to the

20     65 ter witness summary.  That's right.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Exactly.  Please carry on.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Okay.  Mr. President.

23             What I'd like to deal with now --

24        Q.   Mr. Janc, is P681, and we'll get that up hopefully in a moment.

25     But this is a video that is dated 21 July 1995.  And do you have any

Page 5781

 1     familiarity with this particular video footage?

 2        A.   Yes, I do have.  I also reviewed this video, and it is the

 3     farewell or leaving the DutchBat Srebrenica enclave on 21st of July.  It

 4     is the footage from the border crossing in Bratunac before they go over

 5     the iron bridge to then Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

 6             We received -- the OTP received this footage upon the request

 7     from Antelope Production on 1st December, 1999.  They were preparing a

 8     movie regarding Srebrenica, the title of the movie was "The Cry From The

 9     Grave," and in order to prepare this movie, they -- they have obtained

10     this video which was then provided to us upon our request.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  For the record, could you please repeat from whom

12     you received that.  It is not included in the record it.

13             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour, I can.  It is Antelope

14     Production.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:

17        Q.   Do you know, based upon your review of the information concerning

18     this video footage, from where the Antelope Production Company secured

19     this video footage?

20        A.   No, unfortunately.  There was just information on our note that

21     when did we get this -- this footage from, but no further information

22     from where they -- they got this -- this video from.

23        Q.   And do you know for whom this particular production was being

24     prepared; that is, "The Cry From The Grave"?

25        A.   Not really.  If I'm not wrong, it was for -- it was first -- no,

Page 5782

 1     I cannot comment on that.  No.

 2        Q.   All right.  Have you had an opportunity to review the footage

 3     yourself?

 4        A.   Yes, several times, that I can confirm, yes.

 5        Q.   And was that in the course of your functions as an investigator

 6     in the Srebrenica case, separate and apart from your preparation for your

 7     testimony here today?

 8        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 9        Q.   And can you tell us approximately, if you can remember, how many

10     times you might have -- you might have actually reviewed this footage?

11        A.   I would say around three to four times.

12        Q.   All right.  And in the context of your involvement in the

13     investigation, were you able to individual any particular individuals

14     that are featured in this video footage?

15        A.   Yes, indeed.  There are the Dutch Battalion military officials

16     there on this footage.  And I can start with DutchBat battalion in

17     Srebrenica, commander Lieutenant-Colonel Thomas Karremans.  And also

18     General Nicolai Cornelis who has testified here in this case already, he

19     is on that video.  And several others, other DutchBat battalion members

20     you can see on this video.  Apart from that, also the members of the VRS

21     are present on this video, starting with General Ratko Mladic, there is

22     also Lieutenant-Colonel Vujadin Popovic, the Drina Corps -- Drina Corps

23     security officer, and, of course, there is also Colonel Radoslav

24     Jankovic; he is the intelligence officer of the VRS Main Staff.  Apart

25     from that, we can also see, I think, the member of the state security

Page 5783

 1     from Serbia, which I don't think we know who he actually is, but from the

 2     video itself, you can -- you can hear that -- that is he from Serbia.

 3        Q.   All right.  Thanks for that.  I think we can get started and play

 4     that.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  It's 65 ter -- I'm sorry.  It's P681.

 6                           [Video-clip played]

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.  I just wanted to stop for a moment.

 8        Q.   If you can identify who we have in the frame here, Mr. Janc.

 9        A.   Yes, I can.  On the left-hand side turned with a back to us, it

10     is General Ratko Mladic.  On the right-hand side, with a blue beret, it

11     is General Nicolai Cornelis.  And I cannot recognise who that individual

12     behind the General Cornelis is.

13        Q.   And in terms of your identity of General Cornelis Nicolai in the

14     right-hand of this frame, right-hand side of this frame, can you tell us

15     what the basis of your knowledge is for that?

16        A.   General Nicolai testified here for this trial and also before for

17     Popovic trial, and I was personally present when we proofed him for

18     Popovic trial, so I met him personally and I know that's him for sure.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  All right.  We can continue.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You should indicate the time when you stopped the

21     video.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  You're right.  Thank you Mr. President.  That's

23     at 00 minutes, 35 seconds.

24             And I think we can go on a little bit.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 5784

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 2        Q.   Mr. Janc, can you tell us who this individual is now that's in

 3     the frame and the blue beret?  And that's at 47 seconds in this video.

 4        A.   Yes, this is Lieutenant-Colonel Thomas Karremans.  He was the

 5     commander of the Dutch battalion in Srebrenica enclave.

 6        Q.   And what's the basis of your knowledge for that?

 7        A.   I haven't met him personally, but I know he was identified

 8     several times during -- when I was present during the proofing sessions

 9     with Dutch -- Dutch Battalion personnel who came here to testify in

10     Popovic and also in this Tolimir trial.

11        Q.   And have you seen him before in the context of any other video

12     footage that you may have reviewed?

13        A.   Yes, indeed.  He is also present at all these three Fontana

14     meetings in Bratunac, and also through the course of reviewing these

15     videos and other stuff, I can be -- I can confirm that that's him.

16        Q.   Okay.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think we can go on.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.  I've interrupted it again.

20        Q.   Mr. Janc, are you able to identify the individual on the left

21     side of this frame?  And that's at 2 minutes 30 seconds in this footage.

22        A.   If you mean the first individual from the far left side with

23     blond hair, that's the body-guard of General Ratko Mladic.

24        Q.   And can you tell us what the basis of your knowledge is for that?

25        A.   The same -- the basis for my knowledge is that I got aware who

Page 5785

 1     that individual is during the -- as a member of him being involved in the

 2     investigative activities in relation to Srebrenica, and I learned that

 3     this guy, this individual, through statements that he is the body-guard

 4     of General Ratko Mladic.

 5        Q.   Is he featured in any of the videos we've seen today?

 6        A.   Yes, he is.  He is individual who was present together with Ratko

 7     Mladic on 13 of July in Srebrenica in that house with woman refugee.  He

 8     is present there.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  All right.  I think we can -- we can continue.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  We are at 2 minutes and 58 seconds in this

13     frame.

14             Can you tell us -- well, can you identify any of the individuals

15     here.

16        A.   Yes, I can.  The first individual from the left-hand side is the

17     same as before, so a body-guard of the General Ratko Mladic.

18             The individual next to it, to his left, I don't recognise.

19             And then the third one, which is from our left-hand side or just

20     behind General Ratko Mladic, is Lieutenant-Colonel Vujadin Popovic, the

21     Drina Corps chief of security.

22        Q.   And what's your basis of knowledge with respect to your

23     identification of Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic in this frame?

24        A.   He was one of the accused in -- in so-called Popovic et al case,

25     so that's the main source.  And also, throughout the investigation we

Page 5786

 1     came across his name and footages with him being on -- on this footage --

 2     footages.  Very often also many people identified him on these footages.

 3     So that's my knowledge of -- of him.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think we can continue.

 6                           [Video-clip played]

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Okay.

 8        Q.   Mr. Janc, we have an indication here that this was on 21 July.

 9     Are you able to confirm that?  And if you can, can you tell us what the

10     basis for that is.

11        A.   Yes, indeed, this is 21st of July, when the DutchBat left the

12     enclave and we can -- we can get this information -- actually, I got this

13     information from several documents in relation to our investigation, I'm

14     including the witnesses's statements and documents from VRS and UNPROFOR

15     sources.

16        Q.   And at the very beginning of the -- or near the beginning of the

17     footage we see a bridge.  Can you orient the Trial Chamber and tell us

18     where that is in relation to the -- to the -- to the departure of the

19     Dutch Battalion?

20        A.   Yes, I can.  This is actually in Bratunac and the bridge goes

21     over the Drina River into Serbia.  And DutchBat was situated in Potocari

22     which is just few kilometres away from Bratunac or from the spot we have

23     seen here on this video.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I put an additional question.  Have you ever

25     been in Bratunac or Potocari.

Page 5787

 1             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour, indeed.  I've been in Bratunac

 2     several times, also in Potocari several times.  But I can confirm I've

 3     never been at this particular spot, what we see on this video.  So at

 4     this border crossing.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 6             Go ahead.

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8        Q.   There is just one other person I'd like you to take a look at to

 9     see if you can identify, and I think we have it here.  It's at 41 seconds

10     in this video.

11             Are you able to recognise the individual next to General Nicolai

12     with the -- appears to be a brown beret on.

13        A.   Yes, indeed.  This is individual which I was not sure before who

14     that was.  But now I can recognise him.  He is Colonel Radoslav Jankovic,

15     the officer of the intelligence department of the VRS Main Staff.

16        Q.   And do you know off the top of your head what his relationship

17     was to Colonel Petar Salapura, the chief of intelligence of the VRS

18     Main Staff?

19        A.   This individual, Colonel Jankovic, was subordinated to him

20     directly.

21        Q.   I thank you for that.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I would tender this video.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It is it already an exhibit.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Oh, I'm sorry, then I don't tender it.

25             I do have an another video that I would like to play.  It's --

Page 5788

 1     it's longer than the time that we have left and I think it would be

 2     better to proceed with it tomorrow, with leave of the Court.

 3                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  And so I would like, with leave of the Court, to

 5     end today.  I expect -- I have three more videos to go through tomorrow.

 6     At the pace that it's going, I hope it will improve, but I expect at this

 7     pace it will take up most of tomorrow also.  But -- so that's my

 8     application.

 9             Mr. McCloskey would like to -- to address the Court briefly

10     before we adjourn, if -- if -- if that's what is convenient for the

11     Court.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But how much time do you indicate we will need

13     with the examination-in-chief of Mr. Janc?

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think I may have indicated originally about

15     the full day today.  I think I'm probably going to need two sessions

16     tomorrow to get through all of it.  We have about a 20-minute video and

17     another video, I think that the next two are about 17 minutes altogether.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye --

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'm told I'm mistaken.  It's been an hour

20     altogether video footage.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Perhaps you could consider overnight the

22     question, if you should show these videos with this witness or not.  You

23     have seen -- the Chamber has a certain resistance to receive the videos

24     with this witness.  Perhaps you could consider the question if there are

25     more appropriate witnesses who can have more first knowledge about the

Page 5789

 1     source, the people who are depicted in it, and so on.  You said you have

 2     different ways you could show the videos with, and, therefore, you should

 3     consider this question.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.  We'll take that under

 5     advisement.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 7             Mr. McCloskey.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I think the witness should probably leave.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Yes, indeed.

10             Mr. Janc, thank you for your attendance today again.  As you see,

11     it is a quite long story with your evidence.  I'm sure -- we are sure you

12     can't finish by tomorrow, because Mr. Tolimir will have the right to

13     cross-examine you, and, therefore, I just want to remind you it is not

14     allowed to have any contact with either party about the content of your

15     testimony.

16             Thank you very much for your attendance, and now you are free to

17     return to your normal activities.

18             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

19                           [The witness stands down]

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good-bye.

21             Mr. McCloskey.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  I just wanted to respond to

23     a little bit of what your concerns and try to take my comments of

24     yesterday and try to help sort out where we are.

25             As you know we have a two-day gap and that's why this witness and

Page 5790

 1     this material is here.  I was -- Mr. Thayer informed me that the main

 2     reason for that gap, which I didn't understand at the time, was that the

 3     first estimate that we got from the accused was -- for my witness Wright

 4     was four to five days because he was the first -- the first forensic

 5     archeology witness, and that's what Mr. Thayer based the schedule on

 6     mostly.  And then, of course, as the accused reviewed the material, like

 7     we all do, and they've changed that to three to four hours.  So we had

 8     this gap.

 9             And we had not originally planned on a detailed process regarding

10     this video for you.  It's never in the years that we've put on this video

11     has anyone ever objected to it.  All the accused have always -- no one's

12     ever objected to any of the people or authentication in it, which would

13     come out, whether you take that as any value.  I understand you're a new

14     Bench and you may not hold much stock in that, but as we learned that you

15     want details on this, of course, we also never got any objection from

16     General Tolimir on this video, and he knows these -- the evidence will

17     show he knows these people.

18             So -- but as we began to learn that you wanted more on this, then

19     we started thinking, well, we need to get the investigators ready to do

20     this, and it came a little bit earlier than we thought.  And when I look

21     at the 65 ter summaries for the investigators, it was Erin Gallagher that

22     we had put down as our video person because she had some knowledge in the

23     videos.  However, Dusan Janc is probably the best investigator and the

24     best person to do this work.  The best example that you saw today is he

25     spent an entire proofing session with Colonel Salapura, and this -- the

Page 5791

 1     issue of Colonel Salapura identified with General Mladic on 13 July in

 2     Srebrenica is very important.  There is no better witness than -- than

 3     Mr. Janc to identify Salapura.  Salapura, himself, Your Honours, as you

 4     will see was involved in these events.  We haven't shown him that video

 5     as we got it relatively recently, but he could, I don't think so, but he

 6     could get up and say, "That's not me," but I would argue that Dusan

 7     Janc's identification will be better than that.  Mr. Bajagic testified in

 8     this trial and is not a reliable witness in my view.  Dusan Janc is a

 9     much better witness than Bajagic, and I am convinced that you would see

10     that had you seen that.

11             So we don't put Dusan Janc up here half heartedly or without

12     preparation.  He reads the language.  He understands what's being said

13     when he sees these videos.  He's got a good memory, and he on short

14     notice is one of the best people to do that.  He didn't drive around

15     quite as much as Mr. Blaszczyk who ends up signing these things, but

16     Mr. Blaszczyk would bring it to him.  These people, Gallagher, Blaszczyk,

17     and Janc are in the same office about 2 metres from each other, so he

18     really is an excellent witness for this material.

19             And there is the -- the legal issue here is we don't have an

20     objection, we have material that speaks for itself.  I mean, this is

21     amazing material that would be very difficult to fake.  We've all seen

22     fakes, so we understand your skepticism and we will meet that with the

23     evidence.  But it does speak for itself.  Remember that.  And it's a

24     question of admissibility.  Admissibility with the basics of how we got

25     it, that should make it admissible under the law here.  Admissibility is

Page 5792

 1     a very low threshold.  Now, the weight that you give it, that's what

 2     we're talking about.  So we would argue that this material is clearly

 3     admissible based that we got and when we got it and how we got it.  How

 4     much weight you give it is, of course, your determination.  So we believe

 5     that this is more of a weight issue than an admissibility issue.

 6             However, I'm very happy that are you questioning this so that we

 7     know now that you need the answers to these questions.  And so we will

 8     provide you as best we can with the answers through Mr. Janc and through

 9     the other -- the other people.  But just so you know, for example, the --

10     the last -- the last video of the departure of the DutchBat from iron

11     bridge, you will be hearing from Sergeant Major Rave.  He was there, he

12     was a part of it.  He'll recognise all the Dutch people.  He'll recognise

13     some of the Serbian People that was in it.  So he'll -- he's going to be

14     able to put that in context for you if we need it.  Major Boering, who is

15     also our witness, will be able to do it.  And Colonel Salapura has

16     testified here, he's co-operated, and I expect he will testify, and I do

17     expect him to actually acknowledge that's him in Srebrenica.  But you

18     never know.

19             And so where we can we're bringing you people that were actually

20     in the video, you're going to see documents associated with the videos,

21     and it's a very colourful group of people, and it's certainly not just

22     Mr. Janc.  And now that we know, you know, how important it is for you,

23     these details, we're going to churn up these details more and remember

24     these videos better for all the other witnesses.  But you will see from a

25     lot of these people that are in this video you get to see.  But Mr. Janc

Page 5793

 1     is -- is a great witness for this.  There is no better from the

 2     investigative team.  Much of this material came in after Mr. Ruez was

 3     here, and we -- we had given this some thought, though it wasn't on the

 4     description, we put the description for that in Erin Gallagher.

 5             And Erin Gallagher, there is another exhibit that goes along with

 6     all these videos.  It's basically the -- this booklet, and this booklet

 7     is a booklet of stills, and -- sorry, I don't have the 65 ter number for

 8     it right now.  It has one, of course.  And basically it's a series of

 9     important stills and Erin Gallagher is right now preparing to testify

10     about these stills.  As you may recall Mr. Janc saying that she was going

11     testify about who is who in these videos, and this particular document

12     lists some of the things that support how the investigation has

13     identified various people, and so it's basically the playbook.  Not that

14     our videos are an opera, but it's critical to the -- to the video you'll

15     see to have the playbook so that when you go back and take a look at

16     these videos you will this in front of you that will say who people are.

17             And -- but we're not asking you just to count on the

18     investigators for this.  We will throughout this trial you will see over

19     and over again who these people are, and I have every confidence that

20     General Tolimir, if we get anybody wrong, will let us know, as he should

21     do as representing his Defence.  I know we don't expect any statements

22     from him but as he represents his Defence, if we get something wrong, I'm

23     sure he will tell us.

24             But in any event, I've talked for too long now, but that's --

25     that's what I wanted to tell you about, the whole picture.  Yes, we've

Page 5794

 1     come in not as prepared as we would like, but this is -- these are

 2     reliable folks, and we appreciate your questions because we were -- this

 3     is new for us.  It's a new panel and every panel is different and we know

 4     that and we appreciate that and we respect it, so we are very happy that

 5     you are asking questions now and that we don't find out down the road.

 6             So thank you very much.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. McCloskey, for your

 8     thoughtful comments.

 9             I think that was helpful for the Chamber to receive your position

10     and we will consider that as well.  I will not comment on that now.  But

11     you must understand that, indeed, every Chamber is a separate chamber in

12     this Tribunal, as everywhere in the world, and we have to make our own

13     Judgement at the end of the day, and we are not saying anything about the

14     qualification of any witness here.  We will do that at the end of the

15     day.  But we understand your position, and we have listened carefully.

16     Thank you very much for that.

17             Mr. Tolimir, do you want to respond?  You have the floor.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

19             I don't have anything to say.  Tomorrow is another day, and I

20     don't want to keep you any longer.

21             Thank you.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Then we are expecting

23     another interesting day of hearing tomorrow.  We have to adjourn now and

24     resume tomorrow at 9.00 in this courtroom.

25                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.,

Page 5795

 1                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 23rd day of

 2                           September, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.