1 Wednesday, 20 October 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon to everybody. And good afternoon,
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would like to remind you that the affirmation
10 to tell the truth still applies also today.
11 WITNESS: PW-063 [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye is continuing his redirect.
14 Mr. Vanderpuye.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President. Good
16 afternoon to you and Your Honours.
17 Re-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye: [Continued]
18 Q. And good afternoon to you, witness.
19 A. Good afternoon to you too.
20 Q. Yesterday I asked you some questions concerning Resid Sinanovic,
21 as you may recall. And in particular, you raised an issue concerning
22 him, in particular that Zlatan Celanovic had obtained a document showing
23 that Resid Sinanovic had -- well, according to your testimony, I should
24 say, it's at page 6557, lines 1 through 3, you said that Zlatan Celanovic
25 managed to obtain a document showing that Resid Sinanovic, it reads in
1 the transcript "had been executed in the territory of Zvornik
2 municipality but he wasn't actually executed."
3 In particular with respect to the document that you learned about
4 from Celanovic, you indicated that that was related to the medical
5 treatment of Mr. Sinanovic. Do you recall that testimony?
6 A. I do, yes.
7 Q. What I'd like to show you is a document.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think it's actually P00642.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, is that public or under seal?
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: I believe it's public. Let me just check.
11 Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Q. Witness, as you can see, this document is dated 5 March 2003. It
13 is from Dr. -- the Dr. Milenko Marin Health Centre, which is, as you can
14 see at the bottom of the screen, is located in Loznica, and it relates to
15 a register which shows that a person was recorded by orthopaedic service
16 of the sanatorium in Banja Koviljaca. What I'd like to do is show you
17 the register itself, which should be attached to this document and should
18 be a page over, or perhaps two pages over in the English. And what we
19 should see is at the third from the bottom entry on this document --
20 A. I've already identified it.
21 Q. Okay. Can you tell us what it is, what it shows?
22 A. It says the date not legible, but I believe it's the 20th, and
23 then Resid Sinanovic, Srebrenica, Bratunac, and somebody's signature.
24 Q. Now, first can you tell us -- you indicated previously that
25 Banja Koviljaca is across the Drina River from Kozluk, do you recall
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you know if it's north or south of Kozluk across the river?
4 A. I believe that it is levelled with Kozluk. Maybe a kilometre
5 above or kilometre below, I wouldn't be sure, but it's somewhere there.
6 You can actually see Kozluk from Koviljaca. You can see Kozluk from
8 Q. Did you hear that Resid Sinanovic crossed the Drina River to get
9 to Banja Koviljaca?
10 A. I heard that from Celanovic.
11 Q. And can you tell us how far Banja Koviljaca is from Loznica?
12 A. About 5 kilometres in the direction of Zvornik.
13 Q. Did you hear that Resid Sinanovic was taken into the hospital in
14 Loznica, or the health centre as is indicated on the document I've just
15 shown you?
16 A. I didn't hear that he had been in Loznica. It is not indicated
17 here which health centre it was.
18 Q. Well, I'd like to show you another document.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: It's 65 ter 6773.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, is that in the 65 ter exhibit
21 list? I was told that this and the next one are not yet in that list.
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: This document 6773 was recently added to the 65
23 ter list in respect of the re-examination of this witness. I'm not sure
24 if we have the same order of materials. When you refer to the next one,
25 are you referring to 6774?
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's the same situation.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is this confidential or public?
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: It should be public, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE:
7 Q. Witness, this is a document, as you can see from the title, from
8 the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army, operations and staff affairs
9 sector, 1st administration, operations centre, and it's dated 16 July,
10 1995. Have you seen this document before?
11 A. No.
12 Q. What I'd to draw your attention to is under heading number 2 of
13 this document.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: And we'll need to go to the second page, I think
15 probably in both documents.
16 Q. It reads that:
17 "At around 1600 hours on 15 July, a civilian called Petrovic from
18 Gonja Koviljaca village at the elevation of Trbusnica 15th Loznica Border
19 Battalion said that a wounded Muslim soldier called Resid Simonovic was
20 staying at his place and was seeking medical attention. Petrovic said
21 that this man was from Bratunac, but the doctor at the Banja Koviljaca
22 medical centre recognised him as being from Srebrenica. Petrovic said
23 that two other Muslim soldiers were having lunch in Banja Koviljaca and
24 had taken the bus to go to Mali Zvornik. Resid, the wounded man, said
25 that about 20 to 30 Muslim (men and women) were waiting in the Kozluk
1 village sector and that they would try to enter the FRY, Federated
2 Republic of Yugoslavia, after nightfall."
3 Does this comport with your recollection or understanding of what
4 happened to Resid Sinanovic?
5 A. I've never heard this before.
6 Q. Is it consistent with your understanding of what happened to
7 Resid Sinanovic?
8 A. I recounted, I said that the last time I saw Sinanovic at the
9 command of the Bratunac Brigade, from then to the moment when Zlatan
10 Celanovic showed me the document that he had received, he was afraid that
11 he might be charged with crimes, with Resid's murder in Bratunac. That's
12 why he had gone into the troubles of getting the document from Koviljaca.
13 How he did it, that's what he knows. I believe that it was about two or
14 three years ago that Zlatan showed it to me. I can't be sure exactly
16 Q. Well, did Celanovic mention to you that Resid Sinanovic had taken
17 up shelter in or with an individual named Petrovic or a civilian --
18 A. No.
19 Q. -- in the area of Koviljaca?
20 A. No.
21 Q. All right.
22 A. The first time I ever heard about this Petrovic and this civilian
23 associated with Banja Koviljaca was from you now.
24 Q. All right.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE: Can I show the witness, please, 65 ter 6774.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you please indicate whether this is
2 confidential or public?
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm sorry, Mr. President, it's public.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The reason why I ask is these remarks are not
5 included in the list of exhibits to be used today.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Q. Witness, this is a news article, as you can see. It's published
8 by "The Independent" and it's written by Robert Block and as you can see
9 at the very top, the header is "River Killings Shed Light on Scale of
10 Horror After the Fall of Srebrenica." It's indicated Robert Block,
11 Loznica, Serbia. Have you seen this document before?
12 A. No, again I've not seen this before.
13 Q. I want to take you through it just a little bit and see if it
14 conforms with your information or understanding concerning the fate of
15 Resid Sinanovic. At the top, the first paragraph you can see, it begins
17 "The exact whereabouts and the fate of Resad Halilovic are
18 unknown. But the story" --
19 A. Does this refer to Senid Halilovic [as interpreted]? It says
20 Halilovic here. Is this a mistake?
21 Q. It does and it may be, but I'll put that question to you in just
22 a moment.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: If we could just go to the second page of this
24 document, and I hope it's the second page also in B/C/S.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE:
2 Q. We'll go to the fourth paragraph, two lines. It reads:
3 "None of the doctors, even the chief surgeon on the day, admitted
4 seeing the injured man, whom they claimed was the former chief of police
5 Muslim Srebrenica."
6 Was Resid Sinanovic the former chief of police of Srebrenica, of
7 Muslim Srebrenica as is indicated here?
8 A. No, he was the chief of the Bratunac police. We are talking
9 about a period from 1980 to 1984, that's when he was the chief of the
10 police in Bratunac. I don't know that he was the chief of the Muslim
11 police in Srebrenica. That's what it says here. At that time the police
12 in Bratunac was neither Serb nor Muslim, it was a Yugoslav police.
13 Q. I understand. Let me take you back to the page that precedes
14 this, and we can go -- all right. We should be able to go down to the
15 bottom of the page. And it reads:
16 "Staff from the clinic yesterday confirmed that a Muslim man -- a
17 Muslim from Srebrenica by the name of Resad Halilovic had been brought to
18 the clinic at around 3 p.m. on 15 July with several chest wounds. They
19 said his condition was such that he could only be properly treated in the
20 Loznica hospital several kilometres down the road. At the Loznica
21 medical centre, a team of surgeons yesterday shifted uncomfortably in
22 their seats when," if we could go to the next page, "when asked if an
23 injured Muslim from Srebrenica had been treated there. At first the
24 doctors denied all knowledge of the man. Only after it was made clear
25 that the clinic in Banja Koviljaca had let the cat out of the bag did the
1 doctors have a flash of recollection. 'Oh, yes,' said one doctor, 'there
2 was a Muslim man from Srebrenica brought here. He was only lightly
3 wounded in the arm and the leg.'"
4 And in response to a question about the chest wounds, they've
6 "'Oh yeah, that's right, I remember, there were chest wounds but
7 they were only superficial.'"
8 And it's the doctors who identified him as the chief of police of
9 Muslim Srebrenica.
10 At the bottom of the page, or close to the bottom of the page, in
11 the third paragraph up it reads:
12 "Mr. Halilovic's name bears so striking resemblance to that of a
13 Srebrenica military official, Resad Halilovic, who figures prominently on
14 the list, that he may be the same man. While it is not impossible that
15 Mr. Halilovic was injured and escaped from Srebrenica during fighting
16 from the town, his wounds and whereabouts at the time of his discovery
17 also suggest that he could have been survivor of an attempted summary
19 Did you receive any information from Zlatan Celanovic or from any
20 other person that Resid Sinanovic survived an attempted execution?
21 A. I learned from Zlatan Celanovic that Resid had survived the
22 execution, that he had swam across the Drina and that he ended up in
23 Banja Koviljaca in the health centre. Let me explain something else. I
24 just remembered in the Srebrenica the commander of the Muslim police was
25 Resid, but I don't know whether his last name was Halilovic. I don't
1 know that but I'm sure that his name was Resid and that he was the police
2 commander both before the war and during the war. I don't know whether
3 his last name was Halilovic. And I suppose that this refers to that
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, just for the record, on page 7,
6 line 24, for me it's not clear where the quotation ends. I compared it
7 with the original document on the screen and I think the word superficial
8 is the end of quote, and what is the next sentence, I didn't find in the
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Bear with me, I'll try to find it in the ...
11 Yes, the quote ends at superficial, and it is me, I, who say that the
12 doctors identified the injured man as the chief of police of Muslim
13 Srebrenica, which is actually in the following line, but that is --
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Not with these words.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: -- a paraphrase of that line.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, I just wanted to have it on
17 the record.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. This particular
19 document I would like to tender, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
21 Mr. Tolimir.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you Mr. President. I would
23 like to welcome all present and the witness. May these proceedings end
24 in accord with God's will. Could Mr. Vanderpuye tell us who the author
25 of the article is? Could he say that for the record. He -- it seems
1 that these are subjective opinions of this person. Second of all, why is
2 this witness being asked that? I didn't want to interrupt him, I know
3 that the witness wants to learn as much about his friends, but why is
4 this witness being asked about things that happened 300 kilometres away
5 from Bratunac? If the intention is to have the witness find out things,
6 then fine, but why is pressure put on this witness and why is he being
7 asked to talk about things that some people did in Belgrade or in
8 Loznica, in any case, far away from where he was.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Would you please explain that, Mr. Vanderpuye.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President. First, I think I did read
11 the name of the author into the record, and perhaps it wasn't translated
12 to Mr. Tolimir. I think I read it perhaps twice. And his name is
13 Robert Block, and it indicates at the title of the document, by
14 Robert Block, Loznica, Serbia. I think that clarifies this issue.
15 Second, with respect to the use of the document or the subject
16 matter of the redirect examination, it flows directly from the witness's
17 testimony concerning this particular individual, which is
18 Resid Sinanovic. It concerns the information that was gathered from
19 Resid Sinanovic during his interrogation or questioning while he was in
20 Bratunac before Zlatan Celanovic. General Tolimir, during the
21 cross-examination of this witness, elicited from the witness the fact
22 that information was sought as to the whereabouts of the column which was
23 not provided to this witness or other individuals who sought to find out
24 that information, part of which was elicited during his interrogation by
25 Zlatan Celanovic, or Bratunac Brigade officers while he was held there on
1 the 13th of July, 1995.
2 This witness testified and his prior testimony indicates that he
3 had a conversation with Zlatan Celanovic, during which he's referred to
4 on a number of occasions, he was told about the fact that Resid Sinanovic
5 was in custody -- I am sorry, he had a conversation with Resid Sinanovic,
6 he talked about how he tried to help him in 1992. He talked about how he
7 tried to make sure that Resid Sinanovic would be all right when he was
8 taken to the -- when he was informed that Sinanovic would be taken to the
9 Vuk Karadzic school where a number of individuals, as we know, were
11 And so it relates to the entire -- it relates to this witness's
12 knowledge concerning the fate of Resid Sinanovic particularly as a person
13 who was -- who was captured and in VRS custody, who, according to this
14 witness, and according to the cross-examination of General Tolimir,
15 should have been put on trial or prosecuted, which was one of the reasons
16 why the witness said that individuals left the enclave, because they
17 feared that they would be prosecuted if they were caught. And so it
18 relates directly to those issues. It shows in fact that Resid Sinanovic
19 was never prosecuted along with the thousands of other individuals who
20 were also executed, that is in the evidence of this case.
21 So I think it's germane, A, to the indictment, because also
22 Resid Sinanovic is one of the individuals that is specifically referenced
23 in the indictment, and two, it relates to the specific issues raised by
24 the accused during the cross-examination of this witness.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
1 Mr. Tolimir.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, for
3 having given me the floor. I would like to say to Mr. Vanderpuye that
4 the witness did not conceal the fact this person had been detained, as a
5 matter of fact they were together. I'm objecting to the rest of it, that
6 the witness said that he first heard about now. I don't mind having more
7 light shed on this because Mr. Resid is his personal friend, but I think
8 that it is wrong to bring pressure to bear on the witness as if he were
9 responsible for what had happened to Resid afterwards.
10 That was my objection, that the witness should not be pressured
11 on account of something that others did. Thank you.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, there's no accusatory tenor to
14 the documents that I'm putting to the witness. He -- I've asked him
15 whether he has seen the documents before because I don't anticipate that
16 he has seen these documents before. They don't name him, they don't
17 implicate him, they don't suggest anything that he has done in respect of
18 Resid Sinanovic's fate. They do, however, relate specifically to the
19 information that this witness related that he heard concerning what
20 Resid Sinanovic's fate, A, that he was captured, that he swam across the
21 Drina River, that he wound up in Banja Koviljaca, that he may have gone
22 to a medical centre there. The witness has said that he doesn't know
23 anything about Loznica, that's fine. He doesn't know anything about
24 Loznica. But I've asked him where is Loznica in relation to
25 Banja Koviljaca because we have a document that I've shown the witness
1 which clearly he indicates that there is a connection to Loznica as well
2 as Banja Koviljaca, an article that makes the same connection. And there
3 is another document I'd like to show the witness on the issue which I
4 think is germane to the fundamental issues in the indictment.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would like to recall and to remember everybody
6 that yesterday I read out paragraph -- Rule 90(E) of our Rules of
7 Procedures and Evidence to let the witness know that he is not -- that he
8 shouldn't incriminate himself. I think the line of questions are
9 appropriate and we have no concern about that. As stated earlier, the
10 document 65 ter 6774, this is the article of the newspaper "Independent"
11 will be admitted as an exhibit which doesn't say anything about the
12 reliability of the content. This is quite normal if we receive a press
13 article. Mr. Vanderpuye, you used another document, 65 ter 6773, are you
14 tendering that?
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That will be received as well, and we would like
17 to receive the P numbers.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Rule 65 ter 06773 will become Prosecution Exhibit
19 P01253; Rule 65 ter 06774 will become Prosecution Exhibit P01253 [sic].
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, 4.
21 THE REGISTRAR: 4.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The previous one was 1253, and now the last
23 one 1254.
24 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, please carry on.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I'd like to show the
2 witness P00014. And I will need page 143 in the B/C/S, page 24 in the
4 Q. What I'm showing you, witness, is the duty officer notebook of
5 the Zvornik Brigade. These are entries made by the duty officer of that
6 brigade. And in particular, I want to show you the entry which is the
7 second one from the top in this log-book.
8 And it indicates:
9 "A Turk, lawyer escaped to Loznica hospital; wounded and treated.
11 First, the term "Turk," what does that refer to?
12 A. It's derogatory term for a Muslim, if I can translate it that
13 way. If people want to use a derogatory term, that's it.
14 Q. Can you tell us, if you know, was Resid Sinanovic a lawyer?
15 A. He had a degree in law, yes. He graduated from the university of
16 Sarajevo, got a degree in law there.
17 Q. And you can see on this document -- based on what you see on this
18 document, is it fair to say that the Turk lawyer that we are talking
19 about here is likely Resid Sinanovic?
20 A. If you were not putting that question to me the way you are
21 putting it and if I just read this, I would have never linked this to
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that we are
25 all interested in finding out what happened to Resid. It says very
1 nicely here Sinisa, not Resid. So I think the witness should not be
2 provoked this way. Perhaps the question can be put in terms of does this
3 perhaps relate to him or not. Thank you.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I don't see a big difference to the wording, is
5 it fair to say, to what you are proposing. It is really a minor
7 MR. VANDERPUYE:
8 Q. Would it help you if I told you that this entry was made on the
9 15th of July, 1995.
10 A. Again I see no link that would lead me to think that it had to do
11 with Resid Sinanovic.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, can you help us to show the
13 relevant page so we can see the date.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, just a moment, I have to locate it in the
15 book. I think we have to go to page 16 in the English. And it looks
16 like we'll have to go -- wait a minute, just a moment, Mr. President.
17 We'll try page 134 in the B/C/S. 135, I'm sorry. These are the entrants
18 from 15, you can see 15 July, 1995.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In the English version we see 15th of July, 1993.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: I notice that as well, Mr. President, it's clear
21 here an error because you can see the handwritten notation in the book
22 itself, which is, I think, quite clear. I'm going to go and try to find
23 the 16th of July entry in the notebook and maybe we can establish the
24 date more particularly.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think there's no need for that. On the left
1 side of the screen, we have the original version of this document in
2 B/C/S, so that it may be an error in the translation.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President. There is a date actually on
4 page 25 in the English, which I think is just the next page from the page
5 that I had on the screen. It's page 144 in the B/C/S. We can see
6 clearly that the entry falls between the entry on the 15th, the date on
7 the 15th and the date of the 16th of July, 1995.
8 Q. Does that help you in any way, witness, in terms of the entry
9 concerning the Turk lawyer in Loznica?
10 A. In the area of Srebrenica, Bratunac, and Zvornik, there are
11 certainly 30 Muslims who have a degree in law. I'm telling you, if we
12 had not been discussing Resid Sinanovic, that sentence never would have
13 led me to believe that this had to do with Resid Sinanovic.
14 Q. I understand that. But I'm asking you in the context of our
15 discussion concerning Resid Sinanovic, and in particular concerning the
16 documents I've shown you about his whereabouts on or around the 15th of
17 July, and your information concerning Zlatan Celanovic concerning
18 Resid Sinanovic's whereabouts on the 15th of July, is it consistent with
19 that information?
20 A. Well, it would be consistent. There's a high degree of
21 probability now in view of who we are discussing, that is to say
22 Resid Sinanovic.
23 Q. I want to ask you some questions concerning the Kravica attack
24 that you mentioned during the course of your cross-examination. First,
25 you indicated that the attack occurred on the 6th of January. I just
1 want be to sure, is that Christmas Eve or Christmas Day? My
2 understanding was that the 7th was Christmas Day, but maybe you can
3 clarify that for us?
4 A. It was exactly on Christmas Day, the morning of the 7th of
5 January. Christmas Eve is on the 6th and Christmas is on the 7th, and
6 the attack on Kravica took place at dawn on Christmas Day, the 7th of
7 January. Not on Christmas Eve, but on Christmas.
8 Q. I asked you yesterday whether or not that attack involved
9 military combat against VRS forces, and your answer was that the Army of
10 Republika Srpska may have been involved, a village may have been
11 involved, Kravica was inhabited by the civilian population and the troops
12 were on the lines. Do you remember that answer?
13 A. I do remember. Maybe I was a bit confusing there, would you like
14 me to clarify?
15 Q. Yes, I would.
16 A. The Muslims could not attack the village of Kravica directly at
17 first because the village of Kravica is in depth in the territory that
18 was under the control of the Army of Republika Srpska. In front of the
19 village of Kravica and the territory that was under the control of the
20 Army of BH, there was the Army of Republika Srpska, on a line that was
21 securing the village of Kravica. The first attack was against the army,
22 against the line that was held by the Army of Republika Srpska.
23 That morning they were weak because most of the soldiers had gone
24 home to celebrate Christmas. Therefore, the line was not manned 100 per
25 cent. To large extent it had been weakened because the soldiers had gone
1 home. That is where the first strike was and once the Muslims managed to
2 break through, they got into the village of Kravica and as I've already
3 said, they burned it down, they killed the civilians that they found
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'd like to show you 65 ter 4304.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I assume this is not under seal?
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, it's not under seal. If we could
8 just go to the top of the B/C/S document so we can see more clearly what
9 the title is. As you can see, Your Honours, the English translation
10 indicates "illegible" at the top -- at the title, but you can see from
11 the B/C/S version it says "Komanda brigade Bratunac," which was the
12 command of the Bratunac Brigade.
13 Q. Now, witness, you can see this is a document dated 9 January
14 1993. It is addressed to urgently he to the Drina Corps command. And
15 what it talks about is the attack in Kravica on 7th January, 1993. It
16 indicates that in the course of combat between the hours of 8.30 a.m. and
17 what appears to be 1800 on 7 January 1993, during the withdrawal, the 3rd
18 Kravica Infantry Battalion, the following materiel and technical
19 equipment, MTS, was left behind in Kravica. You can see a number of
20 items. Under item number 8, for example, you can see that there were 60
21 millimetre mortar shells, automatic rifles; at item number 10, light
22 machine-guns; anti-aircraft machine-guns at item number 13. And under
23 what is designated B, item B in this document at the bottom of the page
24 in English and in B/C/S, it says items that were destroyed, and it talks
25 about a personnel carrier, 3-barrelled, 4-barrelled ZIS gun, talks about
1 a B-1, 82 millimetre mortars, 60 millimetre mortars, and communications
3 If we go to the second page in English. This is a fair amount of
4 military equipment that was left behind and destroyed in Kravica. Now, I
5 don't mean to suggest civilians weren't killed, but is it fair to say
6 that the operation, in fact, involved a substantial amount of combat
7 against VRS forces?
8 A. I can tell you that the army, the Muslim Army caught the Army of
9 Republika Srpska unaware. I said that masses of soldiers were at their
10 homes at the time because they went there to celebrate Christmas. The
11 Muslims skillfully took advantage of that and they broke into Kravica and
12 did that.
13 As for this materiel and technical equipment, I wasn't in Kravica
14 at the time. It's far away from Bratunac. It's 13 kilometres away.
15 This was probably their logistics base of the unit from Kravica. It says
16 here that it's the 3rd Infantry. I'm saying the Muslims skillfully took
17 advantage of that, the fact that there was holiday on that day, and they
18 attacked when the Army of Republika Srpska was not ready at all, caught
19 unaware. They probably planned to do it that way.
20 Q. You don't have any reason to doubt that this equipment was
21 destroyed and captured -- destroyed or abandoned, I should say, left
22 behind in Kravica, do you?
23 A. I don't doubt that. This equipment and lots of other property
24 the people had was destroyed, livestock, food, everything that could have
25 been taken out of Kravica was taken away by the Muslims then. Whatever
1 they could not take along with them, they burned and destroyed.
2 Q. You can see under item number 24. This is odd, it looks a little
3 bit different, I think, in the B/C/S. It says 23, and then beneath 23 it
4 says 4. So that's the item I'm referring to, for the record.
5 It indicates:
6 "Weapons of the soldiers who were killed (so far, according to
7 unconfirmed reports, around 35)."
8 Does that number of killed soldiers, 35, comport with your
9 recollection or knowledge concerning the attack in Kravica? About 35
10 soldiers and around 11 civilians, does that sound about right to you?
11 A. My knowledge is that during that attack about 60 people were
12 killed, some soldiers, some civilians, from Kravica. This figure of 35
13 soldiers is probably correct, but there must have been about 30 civilians
14 as well. The figure that is being mentioned is that about 60 Serbs were
15 killed on that occasion, some of them being civilians and others
16 soldiers. There would have been many more fatalities had this minority
17 of Serb soldiers not been there. They did get killed but they did slow
18 the attack of the Muslim Army of the BH down, so most of the civilians
19 managed to flee from Kravica across the hills to the Drina. Otherwise,
20 had those soldiers not been there as well, there would have been many
21 more casualties in Kravica. These 35 probably were there defending
22 everyone and they are the ones who probably lost their lives there.
23 Q. All right. Well, I'd like to show you --
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: First of all, I'd like to tender this document,
25 Mr. President.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Rule 65 ter 04304 will become Prosecution Exhibit
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'd like to show the witness 65 ter 00206,
5 please. Right, we have the English translation, I see, up.
6 Q. This, as you can see, is a document also from the command of the
7 Bratunac Brigade. It has a strictly confidential number of 2-1942/26 and
8 a date of 26 January 1993, and it is addressed to the Main Staff of the
9 Army of Republika Srpska, command of the Drina Corps, as you can see. I
10 take you down to item number 2, which I think is going to be on page 3 of
11 the B/C/S. I think we have it. And in particular it talks about combat
12 readiness of the Bratunac Brigade. You can see that right under item
13 number 2, and it reads that the units:
14 "Combat readiness of the Bratunac Brigade units is very low,
15 especially for the conduct of any offensive activities. We also have
16 problems holding on to the captured features."
17 And then it reads that:
18 "The 5th Battalion of the 6th Krajina Brigade arrived on 6
19 January 1993, and on 7 January 1993, immediately included in defence of
20 the Kravica area. The same day, however, they were left alone at
21 positions, because soldiers from the 3rd Infantry Battalion (Kravica)
22 withdrew/ran away to the village of Sopotnik and Bratunac."
23 Now, you've indicated that a number of people were home
24 celebrating Christmas holiday. Is that your understanding or your
25 reading of this particular section of this document referring to soldiers
1 in the 3rd Infantry running away to the village of Sopotnik and Bratunac?
2 A. No, the soldiers that withdrew withdrew because many of them had
3 been killed, the line was broken and they just fled.
4 Q. And that's consistent with your recollection of the attack on 7
5 July 1995?
6 A. On the 7th of January, yes, yes.
7 Q. All right. Thank you.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'd like to tender this document as well.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Once again I assume it's a public document.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: It is a public document, I do apologise for not
11 leading that every time, my mind is --
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are there any on the list which are confidential?
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: Bear with me for one moment, please,
14 Mr. President.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The document 65 ter 206 will be received as an
17 THE REGISTRAR: Rule 65 ter 00206 will become Prosecution Exhibit
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: I understand that they are all public.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'd like to show the witness 65 ter 4401,
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, we don't have it on the list.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Ms. Stewart was just telling me the same
25 thing. I think it might have been an oversight and I am not sure if
1 Mr. Gajic might have received this information. Maybe he can confirm
2 whether he -- he wasn't. Okay. So he doesn't have this information.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is it a document on the 65 ter exhibit list?
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: It is on the 65 ter exhibit list, yes, as 65 ter
5 4401. I'm using it actually for relatively limited purpose so I don't
6 think this should be an issue with respect to it. Mr. Gajic will surely
7 let us know if there's an objection.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I don't see any objection, please carry on.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE:
10 Q. What I'm showing you, witness, is a document from the Drina Corps
11 command. It's dated 7 January 1993. This document, if we go to the next
12 page, you will see is type signed by Milenko Zivanovic as the commander.
13 Actually, it's signed by Milenko Zivanovic as the commander of the
14 Drina Corps. If we go back to the first page, what I'd like to show you
15 is what is written in item number 3 referring to the situation on the
16 ground in the zone of responsibility, and what then Colonel Zivanovic
17 refers to specifically is what he calls the "incidence of wilful
18 abandonment of units in respect of the Orthodox Christmas holiday
19 celebrations." Does that correspond to your recollection of the combat
20 that occurred on 7 January 1993 concerning Kravica?
21 A. It does. And it was not just the case in Kravica. People from
22 all settlements abandoned the lines and went home to celebrate.
23 Unfortunately in Kravica it back fired in a most drastic way.
24 MR. VANDERPUYE: I would like to tender this document as well,
25 Mr. President.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received as an exhibit.
2 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 04401 will become Prosecution Exhibit
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'd like to show the witness, please, 65 ter
5 434. 00434.
6 Q. What I'm showing you, witness, is a document that was seised from
7 the Bratunac Brigade, and it concerns the situation in Bosnia and
8 Herzegovina before the war. In particular, I wanted to draw your
9 attention to what should be page 17.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Well, it's 15 through 17, so we'll start with
11 page 15 in the English, and in the B/C/S it should be ERN ending 1768, I
12 believe. Page 14 in the B/C/S. It should be 1767 which is the preceding
13 page, page 13 in the B/C/S.
14 Q. Okay. And this should just help to orient you a little bit.
15 You'll see a reference there to the date of 31 December 1992. And you
16 can see the brigade command next to that. In the English you'll see that
17 just about in the middle of the page, it says "on 31 December 1992 ..."
18 That's just so we can be oriented.
19 A. I see that.
20 Q. What I'm referring you to in particular is the paragraph that
21 follows this, which in the English begins:
22 "The Muslims knew about the situation among the Serbs which is
23 why they hurried with new attacks to take Kravica as soon as possible."
24 Do you see that, witness? It's in the -- it follows the section
25 that I just directed you to.
1 A. Now I've lost everything. I can see the 31st December in the
2 English version. I apologise, I didn't know that I was not supposed to
3 touch the screen. I touched the screen and everything is lost now. Now
4 the Serbian version is back. I can see it. I can see this in the
5 English version, the 31st December, 1992; however, in the Serbian
6 version -- in the same place I can see a different date, the 29th of
7 December, 1992.
8 Q. We'll go to the top of page 14 in the B/C/S and you'll see the
9 date 7 January 1993, that ought to help you out a little bit. It's right
10 there in the first paragraph, the fourth line down. Do you see the date?
11 A. "7 January 1993 in the early morning hours," is that what I'm
12 supposed to read? I'm not receiving any sound. I can't hear anything.
13 Now I can hear, the sound is back.
14 Q. Okay. Yes, that's exactly where I want you to be. You can see
15 it says, "In the early morning" --
16 A. Where the cursor is, I can see it:
17 "In the early morning of 7 January 1993, on Christmas at dawn,
18 the attack on Kravica was launched."
19 Is that it?
20 Q. That's it.
21 A. Very well.
22 Q. Now, in respect of this attack which we've talked about at
23 length, in this particular document it indicates, and this is at page 17
24 in the English, and hopefully we'll find it on the following page in the
25 B/C/S, middle of the page, it says:
1 "The grim outcome for the people of Kravica on Christmas 1993 was
2 35 killed and 36 wounded soldiers and 11 civilians."
3 Does that sound about right to you?
4 A. I believe that the number was bigger, as far as I know. I think
5 we are talking about 60.
6 Q. All right.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I'd like to tender this document
8 as well.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We didn't see the first page of that, I think, or
10 not the headline or something like that.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: We can go back to it.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The headline was: "The situation in BiH before
13 the war."
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: That's correct, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can you tell us about the source, who was the
16 author of this?
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: I cannot tell you who the author was, but I can
18 tell you that it was the subject of a seisure that was carried out in the
19 Bratunac Brigade following the war.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Who is the author of the document, and do you
21 know the date of the document and when was this seisure carried out?
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: The seisure was carried out I believe in 1998.
23 It was carried out by the OTP, but the date of the document itself is
24 not -- or the author of the document is not indicated. It was carried
25 out, however, in a search of the Bratunac Brigade.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Do you have any more details about this document?
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: I don't have any more details at the moment. I
3 can tell you that. I can look into it to see if there are more details
4 available, but that is the extent of the information that I have
5 available to the Chamber at this time.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: For the moment, the Chamber will mark it for
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Rule 65 ter 00434 will become Prosecution Exhibit
10 P01258 marked for identification.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE:
12 Q. During your testimony, you indicated that you -- well, I asked
13 you at page 6550, lines 12 through 21, the question was:
14 "You have heard, haven't you, that a number of men in the schools
15 of Bratunac were brought there from Potocari, haven't you?"
16 And your answer was:
17 "I heard that they were brought not from Potocari but that they
18 were gathered from the road or perhaps some had lost their way from
19 Potocari. At first sight, the school looked to me like a collection
20 centre, people who had simply lost their way who were wandering about,
21 that was what I felt at first sight. And later on I heard that there had
22 been killings there as well -- there had been killings as well. And,
23 well, I don't know about people being brought from Potocari, rather, they
24 were found in forests, on roads, and some at their wit's end had lost
25 their way."
1 Do you remember giving that answer to that question?
2 A. I do.
3 Q. Now, a bit earlier in your testimony, as part of your answer to a
4 question, you said, and this is at page -- transcript page 6545 through
5 46, lines 25 through line 3 on page 6546:
6 "As for the time that I spent in Potocari, it was about two
7 hours. During that time, I did not notice any separation. Viewed from
8 this distance and having read all sorts of things in the media, I can
9 just say that on that day when I was there, I didn't see that," in
10 respect of the separations, obviously. Now, do you know a Bratunac MP or
11 did you know a Bratunac MP, military policeman, by the name of
12 Mile Janjic back in 1995?
13 A. I believe that the name is Jankovic. Mile Jankovic.
14 Q. I'm asking particularly about Mile Janjic?
15 A. I don't know the man.
16 Q. Did you hear that a Bratunac MP, Mile Janjic, was tasked by
17 Colonel Jankovic of the Main Staff to count the number of separated men
18 in Potocari, and that he counted that 70 men on 10 to 15 buses, some 700
19 people, men, were separated and bused out of Potocari on 12 July 1995?
20 These would be the buses that you approached while you were there on that
21 day. Did you hear that or do you know about it?
22 A. I'm not aware of that.
23 Q. Were you aware that nearly three times as many people were
24 separated on 13th of July and bused into Bratunac?
25 A. I didn't know that.
1 Q. Did you hear at any point that the men on the buses that you saw
2 on the 12th of July, 1995, came from Potocari?
3 A. I spent two hours in Potocari on the 12th. During that time I
4 did not see any separations taking place, only in one of the segments
5 while I was escorting the sick to the buses. I didn't pay any special
6 attention to the bus. I was not close to them. I was up there with the
7 humanitarian aid.
8 Q. No, I understand that, witness. I'm asking you to make a
9 distinction between what you saw or what you say you saw with your own
10 two eyes as opposed to what you heard, either at the time or sometime
11 later, concerning the separation of men? Are you able to tell us what
12 you heard, if anything, about the separation of men?
13 A. I didn't hear anything.
14 Q. Now, you also mentioned or talked about being at a meeting at the
15 Bratunac Brigade command on 12 July. Do you remember that?
16 A. In the morning?
17 Q. In the morning.
18 A. Yes. At 8.00.
19 Q. At 8.00 in the morning. And you were there with General Mladic;
20 is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'd like to show you a document. It's -- I
23 think it's P00752. P00752.
24 Q. We have a document here, if we can go to the second page, I can
25 show you who has signed off on it. It's a document that is issued by the
1 Zvornik public security centre, Zvornik CJB. It is dated 12 July -- no,
2 this isn't it. All right.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Let's see if we can track this one down. Just
4 bear with me for one moment, Mr. President. I think it might be
5 65 ter 56. Mr. President, I see that we've got about five minutes before
6 the break, I'm obviously having some trouble with this particular
7 exhibit. If we could break now, I think I can get it straightened out
8 and hopefully proceed relatively smoothly to a quick conclusion.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have another document on the screen now, but
10 it is illegible. You can't use it in this way with the witness, I
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: I can't.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for your proposal. We must have the
14 first break now and we will resume 10 minutes past 4.00.
15 --- Recess taken at 3.42 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 4.12 p.m.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye. Please carry on.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. May have in e-court,
19 please, 65 ter 752. All right. I see that it's in e-court.
20 Q. Witness, what I'm showing you is a document that is signed off on
21 by the chief of the public security centre CJB Dragomir Vlasic, whom I
22 think you've identified and recognise. Dated July 12, 1995, and refers
23 specifically under item number 2, hopefully you'll be able to read it.
24 If you can't, I think I have a hard copy that you might be able to read.
25 A. That's fine.
1 Q. Under item number 2 you can see it refers to meeting held with
2 General Mladic and General Krstic at the Bratunac Brigade headquarters at
3 8 a.m. in which tasks were assigned to all those involved. Is this the
4 meeting that you were referring to as having attended on the morning of
5 12 July 1995 at 8.00 a.m.?
6 A. It is correct that at 8.00 a meeting was held at the command of
7 the Bratunac Brigade and that General Mladic was present. However,
8 General Krstic was not present then at 8.00.
9 Q. So is it your position that --
10 A. Tasks were assigned at that meeting to all the participants. No
11 tasks were being assigned at that meeting. It was only said that there
12 would be a meeting at 10.00 at the Fontana Hotel. I'm not aware of any
13 specific tasks, if something specific is meant.
14 Q. Well, I'd like to refer you to item number 5, which I can see is
15 quite difficult to read in this document. I will read it into the record
16 in English, and hopefully it will be translated to you so that you can
17 understand it. But under item number 5, Chief Vasic writes:
18 "A meeting will begin at 1000 hours with representatives of
19 UNPROFOR and the International Red Cross and the Muslim representative of
20 Srebrenica at which an agreement will be reached on the evacuation of the
21 civilian population from Potocari to Kladanj."
22 Then it indicates in the translation as well that there are
23 several words that are illegible. And it refers to problems there. So
24 does this refresh your recollection about the circumstances of the
25 meeting that you attended on 12 July 1995 at 8.00 a.m. with
1 General Mladic?
2 A. As for the 8.00 meeting, what Chief Vasic wrote up does not
3 reminds me of anything. He is pre-empting things as if he knew that a
4 decision would be made at 10.00 that the Muslims would be evacuated. At
5 8.00, I did not know about that. I didn't know about it all the way up
6 until the 10.00 meeting. Maybe he did know. I didn't.
7 Q. No, I understand that may be your you view with what
8 Dragomir Vasic knew at the time, but my question is --
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before you continue, I would like to give the
10 floor to Mr. Gajic.
11 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] I am sorry, I've noticed just now in
12 paragraph 5, perhaps this may be of assistance, it says clearly at 1000
13 hours, I'm reading from the original, the Serbian, hours a meeting will
14 begin with representatives of UNPROFOR. That is what the document itself
15 says. It does not say -- it does not say "will begin." It says the
16 meeting begins. So I'm referring to the construction of the sentence
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is now quite difficult, Mr. Gajic, because
19 when we received the English interpretation of your reading in B/C/S, it
20 says again it "will begin." You see on line 18 of page 31: "1000 hours,
21 a meeting will begin with representatives of UNPROFOR." There's perhaps
22 a translation issue, Mr. Gajic.
23 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] I think that it is a translation
24 issue. Because in paragraph 5, it says here at 10.00, at 1000 hours, and
25 then the person who wrote the document practically expresses himself in
1 the present tense. The person says, "the meeting begins." It's not that
2 it shall begin, it says that "the meeting begins."
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for that.
4 Mr. Vanderpuye. Sorry for interrupting you, please carry on.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: No trouble. Thank you, Mr. President, I
6 appreciate that.
7 Q. In any event, witness, the reason why I read out this particular
8 passage is that I'm suggesting to you that, and you can clarify this,
9 that this refers to meeting that you attended. Can you confirm that?
10 This document refers to the meeting that you attended with General Mladic
11 at 8.00 a.m. at the Bratunac Brigade command or headquarters?
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, paragraph 5 that the
15 Prosecutor is showing to the witness contains something that is not
16 contained in the English translation. It says 100 vehicles, et cetera,
17 simply two documents have overlapped as it were. So I would like to ask
18 Mr. Vanderpuye to present a clearer document because how come these
19 vehicles, these trailer trucks crop up in paragraph 5? Thank you.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In the English version I don't see anything like
22 Mr. Gajic.
23 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. Vanderpuye said that he perhaps
24 has a hard copy of this document. We have been notified of the documents
25 that would be used by the OTP rather late so we were not in a position to
1 provide hard copies for us ourselves. So if he could please give us
2 these hard copies so that we can have a look at it and in this way avoid
3 any kind of lack of clarity.
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: I do.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And to add, the Chamber didn't receive an exhibit
6 list including this document. We were not aware of that.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, I think I may have inadvertently referred
8 to it as P073 -- 752. And, in fact, it was 65 ter 752, and that's the
9 reason why it didn't come up, I think, in e-court correctly. And that's
10 my fault. But I'm not sure, I think it is actually on the list that was
11 presented to ...
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, it's not.
13 MR. VANDERPUYE: It wasn't at all. Okay. I apologise for that,
14 Mr. President. I have a hard copy of the document and I can --
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perhaps it's helpful to put it on the ELMO. And
16 perhaps it's better --
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, I think it would be. I have two. I have
18 the horrible version which you can see in e-court, and I have a copy of
19 that document which hopefully will be legible. I think maybe it would be
20 a good idea to show them both to Defence first and then we can put them
21 on the ELMO.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed.
23 Mr. Tolimir.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, while Gajic is
25 having a look at this, I could put a question here, what does this say
1 under number 6, the joint police forces are advancing towards Potocari?
2 How can a meeting be held in Potocari when joint forces are attacking?
3 In the English version I haven't seen this. Thank you. Obviously two
4 documents have overlapped as it were. Thank you.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think Mr. Vanderpuye will deal with this.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. If we could have
7 these both placed on the ELMO, I'd like to show first the illegible one,
8 hopefully. We'll look at that one first and then we can look at the more
9 legible version of that document. Actually, it was pretty good initially
10 because we could see the date very clearly on this version. And I think
11 we can all barely make out that it says 12 July 1995. It says ...
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If you could zoom in a little bit further. No,
13 no, it's too much. I think this is the best we can get at the moment.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, and we can see on this document CJB
15 Zvornik, the "broj" number, the report number is 277/95 and then you can
16 see the date of 12.07.1995, "godina," meaning year, g-o-d, and then
17 beneath that, the date is underlined, but in fact, you can see it MUP
18 Republika Srpska and beneath that -- if you can go down a little bit. A
19 little bit more. Okay. And we see the dispatch number there,
20 "k/p-1-407/95 od," of, 12 July 1995. I think we can see that very
21 clearly. And if we go to the left side of the document, we'll see the
22 enumerated paragraphs 1, 2, 3 and we should go down to paragraph 8.
23 Beneath that we should see an indication that it's from the chief of the
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Further down, please.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: Barely make out the name Dragomir Vasic.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there's something
4 wrong with this document. In the version we saw before this one on the
5 monitor, it said that the meeting would begin at 10.00. Whereas here, on
6 this version that is barely legible, it says the meeting started at 10.00
7 so he is reporting during the meeting itself.
8 Secondly, here it says very urgent on this document, that is
9 English, that's not Serbian. There's something there that's very wrong.
10 Serbs never wrote in English to their units and their subordinates.
11 Could you please have a look at paragraph 5 once again and see what the
12 difference is, the difference between the first document shown by the
13 Prosecutor and this one that we see now. Thank you.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Chamber would like to see the original.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, this is a photocopy of what is -- the
16 e-court is a photocopy of what you have on the ELMO, and I'd like to hand
17 what we have on the ELMO, that is ERN ending 6571 to the Trial Chamber,
18 and I'd like to replace what is on the ELMO with ERN ending 6572, which
19 is a more legible version of this document.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please carry on.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I see that the
22 Trial Chamber has now the original of document ending 6571. This is 6572
23 which is a copy of that document. You can see the same indication, CJB
24 Zvornik at the top. Report number 277/95. Date 12.7.1995, "godina," you
25 can see that. You can see to the right of it -- of the date and the
1 report number urgent, just as Mr. Tolimir, General Tolimir has indicated.
2 And beneath --
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Not only urgent, but the first three letters of
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But the Y is missing.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes. On this particular copy you can see a --
8 what appears to be a telephone number, anyway, a number, and it's
9 584-142, and beneath that what appears to be 784335. It indicates 2,
10 which appears to be a page number at the centre on top of the document,
11 and the document that the Trial Chamber has before it now, which ends
12 6571, has the number 1 at the point top and centre. Beneath the caption
13 you can see that it reads "MUP Republika Srpska," and that it indicates
14 that it's the police forces in Bijeljina. I think it says "Sstab,
15 Policijskih Snaga Bijeljina," and it says "Kabinet Ministra Pale." And
16 these -- and then beneath that you'll see a dispatch number which I've
17 indicated before of "k/p-1-407/95 od," meaning of, 12.7.1995, "godina"
18 the year. If we go down this document you'll see that it has eight
19 enumerated paragraph entries referring to the same material as was
20 indicated in the document before the Trial Chamber. If we go beneath
21 paragraph 8 you will see that it is type signed "Nachelnik cjb-a, Vasic,
22 Dragomir," which is the same as the copy the Trial Chamber has before.
23 We were focussing initially on paragraph 5 which I'd like to turn to.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, thank you. Mr. Tolimir. Please zoom in
25 again. Mr. Tolimir. Yes, Mr. Tolimir.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, can paragraph 4 be shown so
2 that the witness can see it. Maybe he will know why some things are
3 written in the present tense and some in the past tense. Thank you. In
4 the Serbian language, can it be read in the Serbian language.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I think you should let
6 Mr. Vanderpuye carry out his examination and you will get the chance to
7 put other questions later, if necessary. But let Mr. Vanderpuye carry
8 on, please.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Q. Witness, you've -- hopefully you can read now what is written in
11 paragraph numbered 5 in this document. Now, irrespective of whether it's
12 written in the past tense or the present tense, it does refer to a
13 meeting involving General Mladic at 8.00 a.m. at the Bratunac Brigade
14 headquarters, and it does refer to the 10.00 meeting with representatives
15 of UNPROFOR and Muslim representatives of Srebrenica concerning the
16 evacuation of that civilian population. Your testimony concerning the
17 meeting that you attended occurred at the same location, date, and time
18 as is indicated in this document, and involved General Mladic, as is
19 indicated in this document, and concerned information relayed to you
20 about a meeting, which was in your case to occur at 10.00 involving the
21 representatives of UNPROFOR and the Muslim representatives from
22 Srebrenica and also concerning the evacuation of the population.
23 What I'd like to find out from you is, does this document refer
24 to the meeting that you attended with General Mladic?
25 A. I think it is the document, or rather the meeting at 8.00 that
1 was attended by General Mladic. I had just said that Krstic had not
2 attended and that the meeting at 10.00 at the Fontana Hotel is being
3 referred to that was attended by General Mladic, the UNPROFOR commander,
4 the representatives -- Muslim representatives, and the representatives of
5 the civilian authorities, or rather, it has to do with the identification
6 that we carried out on the photographs.
7 Q. All right.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I'd like to tender this document
9 into evidence.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which version? In fact, we have first seen the
11 illegible with the translation in e-court, then on the ELMO the original
12 and a copy.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: What I would like to do, I think, is to tender
14 the document that is in e-court now, and I will try to have -- try to
15 have a copy, the copy of the second document, which is ERN 0177-6571,
16 which is the one that is on the ELMO now, also tendered together with
17 this document. Maybe we can make versions A and B respectively, but I
18 think that would make the record sufficiently clear so that we can
19 identify it later on.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: At the moment we have 6572 on the ELMO, the
21 original is in my hands and I would like to give it back to the
22 Prosecution. 6571 is in e-court.
23 Mr. Gajic.
24 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that we have
25 a small problem here that has to do with the translation, so I don't know
1 what the best way to proceed would be, to check the translation of this
2 document and to find the right translation and that that should be in
3 e-court and in evidence as well if the Trial Chamber deems that this
4 should be admitted into evidence.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The translation we have now on screen is always
6 attached to the original, which is in e-court, and therefore there's no
7 need to tender that separately, but if there are problems with the
8 correct translation, that might be raised in another way. This document
9 will be received, and I think we should receive it as A, this one in
10 e-court, and B that one we have seen on the ELMO.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. That's 65 ter -- I am
12 sorry, that's ERN 0177-6571 and 0177-6572, that should be B.
13 THE REGISTRAR: ERN 177-6571, Prosecution Exhibit P01259A. ERN
14 177-6572, will be Prosecution Exhibit P01259B.
15 MR. VANDERPUYE:
16 Q. Now, witness in this document - don't know if we still have it up
17 in e-court, we do - you can see under several items, under item number 3,
18 for example, it indicates:
19 "The military operation is continuing according to plan. The
20 Turks are fleeing towards Suceska while the civilians have gathered in
21 Potocari (about 15.000)." First, can you tell us where Suceska is
22 relative to Potocari and Srebrenica?
23 A. In relation to Potocari, the village of Suceska is on the very
24 opposite side, in this hilly mountainous area of the municipality of
25 Srebrenica, towards Milici, or rather the area of the municipality of
2 Q. Would that be to the west, north and west of Srebrenica?
3 A. Perhaps you could say to the north-west of Srebrenica. I beg
4 your pardon, to the south-west in relation to the Srebrenica.
5 Q. South and west of Srebrenica?
6 A. South-west.
7 Q. And the reference in paragraph 3 to the roughly 15.000 civilians
8 gathered in Potocari on 12 July, does that comport with your
9 recollection, your memory having been in Potocari on 12 July?
10 A. It does. In my estimate it may have been even more than 15
11 per cent, but it does, yes.
12 Q. We have in the record that you refer to 15 per cent. Did you
13 actually say 15.000?
14 A. Yes, yes. 15.000 and perhaps even more than 15.000 in my
16 Q. During the meeting that you attended with General Mladic, were
17 you made aware of the military or on-going military operation towards
19 A. I was not aware of it. I was not aware of a military operation.
20 I knew that it was underway, but I did not know to what extent and I was
21 not aware of details. I did know that there was an operation underway.
22 Q. Was there any discussion during the course of the meeting that
23 you attended concerning the Muslim men fleeing towards Suceska?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Was there any discussion concerning the appointment of the chief
1 of public security in Srebrenica and the commander of the police station
2 in Srebrenica?
3 A. No.
4 Q. And was there any discussion concerning the newly-elected
5 president of Srebrenica or the chairman of the Srebrenica Executive
7 A. No, it was not discussed.
8 Q. And in terms of your attendance of the -- at this meeting on 12
9 July, 1995 --
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: If we can go into private session for a moment,
11 please, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
13 [Private session]
11 Pages 6609-6616 redacted. Private session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honour.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE:
12 Q. Witness, you indicated that you had an opportunity to go by the
13 Vuk Karadzic school on 13 July. Do you remember giving that testimony?
14 A. I do.
15 Q. And on that occasion you testified that you didn't see any bodies
16 outside the school or inside the school for that matter?
17 A. No, I didn't.
18 Q. And I asked you on a number of occasions, I think, if you heard
19 about people that had been killed in and about the school in those days,
20 meaning 12th, 13th, and so on. Do you remember that?
21 A. I do.
22 Q. And you said that you did indicate -- you did hear that people
23 had been killed in the school; is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And from whom did you receive this information?
1 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you. Rumours had it, nobody said it
2 officially so I wouldn't know who I heard it from. I just heard it.
3 Q. And in terms of the cleanup of the bodies in that school, who
4 would have been responsible for that?
5 A. I don't know. I think it would be the military. Those who did
6 it. That would only be logical. I suppose that later it befell the
7 civilian protection. I don't know. I don't know who was in charge.
8 Probably the civilian protection because in one way or another -- or
9 rather, not in one way or another, but they -- they were supposed to look
10 after the town, the cleaning of the town.
11 Q. It is the case, isn't it, that the civilian protection is
12 responsible for "asanacija"?
13 A. I suppose that, yes, the civilian protection is responsible for
14 the "asanacija" of war sequela.
15 Q. And that would involve the removal and burial of bodies, wouldn't
17 A. I don't know. As far as I know both the civilian protection and
18 the utilities company did that together, where I come from. But that was
19 not done pursuant to any orders coming from the Executive Board.
20 Q. You know someone by the name of Mirkovic, Dragan Mirkovic, don't
22 A. Mirkovic, yes, I do. The director of the utilities enterprise.
23 Q. And you know someone by the name of Ljubko Ilic, don't you?
24 A. I do. I do. The head of the civilian protection.
25 Q. And in those days in mid-July, were either of these two, to your
1 knowledge, involved in the collection, disposal, burial of bodies in and
2 around Bratunac, Kravica, Glogova, Potocari? Can you tell us?
3 A. They were involved in that but not upon my orders or orders of
4 the Executive Board. They know who ordered them to do that.
5 Q. I'd like to show you --
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: And I think we will need to go into -- maybe
7 not, just a moment, please, I am sorry. Yes, we'll need to go into
8 private session, please, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We turn into private session.
10 [Private session]
21 [Closed session]
11 Pages 6621-6625 redacted. Closed session.
22 [Open session]
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for your understanding that you were
24 waiting outside of the courtroom. We had to discuss some procedural
25 matters in your absence.
1 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.
4 Q. Witness, do you see this document on your screen? It's entitled
5 "Civilian Protection of the Republika Srpska," it's a handwritten
6 document. Are you able to see it, read it?
7 A. Yes, I see it. I can see and read it, basically.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It should not be broadcast. Is that okay?
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: It may be broadcast, yes.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It may be broadcast. Okay.
11 MR. VANDERPUYE:
12 Q. Now, you can see what the title is, it refers to on the left-hand
13 column, the staffs of civilian protection Republika Srpska. Beneath
14 staffs you can see that it refers to the republic level staff?
15 A. I have no translation.
16 Q. All right.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perhaps you can repeat your question and then
18 there must have been a problem with the technical equipment.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE:
20 Q. All right. Are you receiving translation now?
21 A. No.
22 Q. All right.
23 A. No.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, try it again, please.
25 MR. VANDERPUYE:
1 Q. Do you receive translation now?
2 A. No.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Oddly enough, I can actually hear B/C/S in my
5 Q. Can you hear it now?
6 A. I can hear you but not the interpretation.
7 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. We'll look into that.
8 Q. Are you able to hear our translation now?
9 A. No.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed we hear the -- with a very low voice the
11 B/C/S translation.
12 Mr. Gajic.
13 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] For awhile we received
14 interpretation into Serbian as if it were from another planet.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That was indeed what we heard as well.
16 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] It looks like the B/C/S
17 translation is on channel 6.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Try it again, please, Mr. Vanderpuye.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE:
20 Q. Are you able to receive translation now, witness?
21 A. No.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think in that case, we should have our second
23 break now. Is the best way to have now the second break and the
24 technical problem should be resolved during the break. We will adjourn
25 now and I think we should resume a little bit earlier, five minutes past
1 6.00 to enable the Prosecution to finish with this witness hopefully
2 today. We adjourn.
3 --- Recess taken at 5.40 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 6.08 p.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Q. I just want to confirm with the witness that he is receiving
8 translation now?
9 A. Yes, I am.
10 Q. Now, witness, you should have on the monitor in front of you the
11 document that I had placed there for you. That's 65 ter 2156, which is
12 entitled "Civilian Protection of Republika Srpska." You have that in
13 front of you now?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And if I take you over to the left-hand side of the document.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Perhaps we could blow that up a little bit.
17 We'll need to include the top of it also. That's fine. That's fine.
18 Q. You can see here that it indicates staffs, staffs of the civilian
19 protection of the Republika Srpska.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Under staffs we see staffs at the republican level, "republics
22 staffs." Do you see that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Beneath that you see "regional staffs," and beneath that
25 "municipal staffs"?
1 A. Yes.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Can we go into private session, please.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
16 [Private session]
11 Pages 6631-6632 redacted. Private session.
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. Since this was a very lengthy
18 re-examination by the Prosecution, if there are any questions to the
19 content of this redirect to be fair to both parties, I would like to ask
20 Mr. Tolimir from the redirect if there arose any additional questions
21 from your side?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. There
23 are a lot of such questions. I'll try and put only those that are
24 relevant to send the witness home because he has stayed even longer than
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I hope that should be the case every time to put
2 only those who are relevant. It is not necessary to put irrelevant
3 questions to any witness. Just in answer to your remark.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, I did not mean relevancy
5 or irrelevancy when it comes to the questions. I meant the time that is
6 left to me.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President. I believe that
9 General Tolimir intends to use up the rest of the time that we have, and
10 we have another witness which I'd like to get permission to release at
11 this time.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed. We have not enough time left today to
13 commence with another witness.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Can the
17 document stay in e-court. Let's start with last things first in order to
18 speed things along.
19 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, based on the documents that you see in
21 front of you, can you tell me whether you issued tasks to all the members
22 of the staff which you can see here in the structure?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You didn't. Okay. Were you in a position to issue tasks to the
25 member of staff for the "asanacija" who is the 7th in order here?
1 A. No, I didn't.
2 Q. So would that be somebody else who would have issued him orders
3 from the civilian protection side or would it have been the president of
4 the municipality?
5 A. I don't know who it would have been. I only know that I was not
6 the one who issued orders to him. I don't know whether somebody else
7 ordered him, whether the chief of the Ministry of Defence or somebody
9 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us whether you had the right to
10 expect documents of the Ministry of Defence which are marked as military
11 secrets or something else, or was it only the person who worked within
12 the structure of the Ministry of Defence who could do that?
13 A. I did not have an insight into those documents. They are not a
14 municipality body. They were the body of the Ministry of Defence of
15 Republika Srpska.
16 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us when the president of
17 municipality became the commissioner, as you said it during the
18 cross-examination, was his position vacant and were his authorities
19 transferred on to somebody else?
20 A. I believe that you have confused some things. Deronjic was never
21 the head of the municipality. The head of the municipality was
22 Ljubisa Simic and he remained in that position all the time. And
23 Miroslav Deronjic was the commissioner. He was the president of the
24 local SDS as well as of the regional board of the SDS.
25 Q. Thank you. You are right, I got mixed up. So before you, if
1 somebody was given a task from the ministry in the municipality, would it
2 have been the president or you, who would it have been?
3 A. I believe it would have been both.
4 Q. Thank you. And what about military tasks, was the civilian body
5 of power in a position to receive any tasks from the military in this
6 particular situation?
7 A. No. They were not superior to us, to the civilian authorities.
8 The military had nothing whatsoever to do with the civilian authorities,
9 they were not our superior.
10 Q. Was the principal of command responsibility applied in the
11 municipal structures? Thank you.
12 A. I don't understand your question, could you please rephrase or be
13 more specific.
14 Q. When it comes to the civilian bodies of power, do they -- did
15 they fall under the criteria that were applied to the military bodies of
16 authorities, for example, command responsibility?
17 A. No, they did not fall under those. The Executive Board was
18 answerable to the Assembly of the municipality of Bratunac because
19 throughout the war the civilian authorities were functioning in Bratunac.
20 Q. Thank you. The Prosecutor asked you whether you removed the dead
21 bodies, if you heard that there were dead bodies strewn around, was that
22 part of your competencies?
23 A. I was not the one who removed them. I don't know under whose
24 orders the civilian protection did that as well as the utility company.
25 They received orders and they can tell you who from.
1 Q. If there were any bodies on the street in town, was the president
2 of the municipality in charge of removing that or was it the case that
3 military bodies and civilian bodies came first to inspect, and after all
4 the procedures was followed, the president of the municipality would
5 issue an order for the bodies to be removed? It would not be him who
6 would remove them?
7 A. Of course there was a procedure in place. A human body is not a
8 dead cat in the street. Of course doctors should be involved, the police
9 should be involved, and after that the civilian protection and utility
10 company that looks after the cleanliness of a town.
11 Q. Could you tell us whether the civilian bodies or the bodies of
12 the Ministry of Defence, like, for example the civilian protection, would
13 dare enter a combat area without an invitation on the part of the
14 commander of the military in charge -- military unit or district to
15 remove dead bodies?
16 A. I suppose not. You can't enter a combat area at your own will.
17 You can do it only upon somebody's invitation.
18 Q. Thank you. On page 49, lines from 1 through 11, the Prosecutor
19 asked you about a certain man, Ibro. Let's not mention his family name.
20 I don't know whether we were in private or open session. I'm hurrying
21 because I want to send you home. Do you remember what he asked you?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. My question would be this: Was it within your purview to follow
24 that gentleman's free will and let him go where he wanted or was it
25 within somebody else's purview?
1 A. It was within somebody else's purview, and it was according to
2 his expressed wish, the wish that he stated himself.
3 Q. Thank you. After the meeting, did you have any contacts with the
4 aforementioned gentleman?
5 A. Ibro?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. No, I didn't.
8 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. At the meeting at Fontana,
9 were there representatives of the Red Cross there?
10 A. Nobody was there on behalf of the Red Cross.
11 Q. In the recording that the Prosecution showed you, did you
12 recognise anybody from the Red Cross at that meeting?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you notice -- that wrote the minutes, did you notice he
15 mentioned them as having been there?
16 A. Yes, I noticed that in the report, but they were not there.
17 Q. Is it possible that that was a collective report for the entire
18 day because it mentions that meeting at 8.00, the 10.00 meeting, about
19 the appointment of police officers, and so on and so forth?
20 A. Yes, I would say so. There are many items of the agenda which
21 were not all dealt with at the 8.00 and 10.00 meetings.
22 Q. In one point it says current -- the present tense is used, in
23 another the future tense and then the past tense, is that an indicative,
24 does it indicate that that was the collective report for the entire day?
25 Did you notice that?
1 A. I didn't notice the 1500. If that report was written up at 1500
2 hours, then -- well, beforehand there was 8.00 and 10.00.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to have document
5 003937. That's the ERN number. Could we have that on the left-hand
6 side, and the right-hand side Y003-9038, on the right-hand side, that is
7 so that we can compare are the two. That is Prosecution number -- I
8 apologise, I wrote this up incorrectly. I skipped a page. I do
9 apologise. I'm in a rush, I'm speaking off the cuff and I didn't realise
10 that there was this other page in front of me.
11 Prosecution showed a document here as 00 -- P00416. And the
12 exhibit 65 ter was on page 14, line 24. So could we see in e-court this
13 document under seal, 65 ter P00416. Thank you.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It can't be the right page to that document. It
15 should be removed from the screen, please.
16 Mr. Vanderpuye.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be removed
22 because it's a secret.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think I'll just withdraw what I was going to
24 say, I think we are fine as it is.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I hope it was not broadcast.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, I do apologise. I meant
2 P00752. That's a document of the centre of security services from
3 Zvornik from the 12th. Let us see the original and the copy. Let's see
4 the original on one side and then the copy on the other side. Could the
5 witness please see it in a language he understands and then can the
6 Trial Chamber see it in English. Thank you. 65 ter 752. Thank you. I
7 do apologise.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I think that document was
9 admitted, P1259A and B. These may be the two documents General Tolimir
10 is referring to.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much indeed.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you to Mr. Vanderpuye. I'm
13 speaking about this document of the chief of the Zvornik MUP. Thank you.
14 Thank you.
15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
16 Q. We see the document now. Could the witness please have a look at
17 paragraph 4. Can he read or see anything in paragraph 4?
18 A. "Consultations are underway to appoint the chief of the
19 Srebrenica" --
20 Q. Thank you, that will do. That's it. The Prosecutor asked you
21 whether you and the Muslims discussed that at the meeting?
22 A. No, we did not.
23 Q. Thank you, and I apologise to the interpreters. Does this
24 indicate the fact that what happened at 8.00 and what is underway, that
25 this was written up as a document, a comprehensive document for the
1 entire day as seen by the gentleman who wrote up the document?
2 A. Well, that's the way it looks on the basis of this paragraph 4.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this document -- thank you.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Does this document show that as for the knowledge that he had on
6 that entire day he put that into these paragraph that preceded
7 activities? Thank you.
8 A. I think that this is his daily report to the ministry, Ministry
9 of Security, the office of the minister.
10 Q. Thank you. On page 46 of today's transcript, line 11, you said:
11 "It was my understanding that they would be checking those who
12 stay on in Srebrenica."
13 When the Prosecutor asked you what Mladic meant by saying that
14 those who remained would be prosecuted, as you had put it. My question
15 is: Is a prosecution a complex action or is it just a check based on an
16 interview with a suspect?
17 A. It is certainly a complex action.
18 Q. Thank you. [Microphone not activated]
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please.
20 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Sorry. On page 46, line 22, the Prosecutor asked you how you
22 interpret what Mladic said when he asked everyone what to do with the
23 Muslims and when it was said that the Muslims could survive or disappear.
24 In this sentence, the Muslims could survive or disappear, are both
25 referred to? What was your understanding, did that depend on Mladic or
1 the Muslims?
2 A. My understanding is that it depended on the Muslims.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I ask a short question just to clarify. We
5 heard that you took part in the Hotel Fontana meeting at that day; is
6 that correct?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not receiving any
8 interpretation again.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not receiving any
10 interpretation either.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I put this question once again. Did you attend
12 the Hotel Fontana meeting that day at 10.00?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Was Mr. Dragomir Vasic present at this meeting
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he was.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Please carry on,
18 Mr. Tolimir.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
21 Q. The Prosecutor, on page 50, line 5, asked you whether you passed
22 by the Vuk Karadzic school and whether you had heard that there were
23 corpses there and whether you removed those corpses. My question is: Is
24 the president of the municipality responsible for removing corpses from
25 public areas in town, since you said that you had not seen that, would he
1 have to inform the appropriate authorities in the municipality who are
2 supposed to establish what the situation is?
3 A. I just passed by the school. I did not enter the school because
4 in front of the school building I saw a policeman, and I said to him what
5 I had said, namely to take care of Resid.
6 Q. Thank you. The president of the Executive Board, can he, without
7 the agreement of the army and police, remove corpses or perhaps even
8 protect them as an ordinary soldier could be asked to do? Could you have
9 done that on the basis of your position?
10 A. No, certainly not.
11 Q. Thank you. A question was put to you here about the brothers of
12 the late Resid when he said that a shell had fallen and that he had not
13 heard of them since.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Is it possible that when the area was being mopped up, when
16 the -- and after the shell had fallen there, perhaps were their bodies
17 brought to the grave that the Prosecutor referred to?
18 A. Even Resid didn't know what happened with his brother and his
19 relative. This was the last time he saw them.
20 Q. Thank you. Could you know anything about these two men then?
21 A. No, I could not. And I didn't really make an effort or express
22 any interest or did I have any possibility of finding out.
23 Q. As we are looking at this document here, Mr. Ilic said here that
24 the Muslims were withdrawing towards Srebrenica -- Suceska, rather, from
25 Potocari from the place where he attended the meeting. Can one see
1 Suceska and how far away is that in terms of kilometres? Thank you.
2 A. You cannot see it from there and it must be about 15 kilometres
3 away from Potocari in this hilly mountainous area. That's where Suceska
5 Q. Thank you.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you mentioned a certain name on page
7 75, line 25. I think you misspoke. You were referring to Mr. Vasic and
8 not to Mr. Ilic; is that correct?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. You are
10 right. I made a mistake.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please carry on.
12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Does that indicate the fact that the gentleman who we mentioned
14 just now could have written this report only on the basis of the reports
15 that were coming in from the field because this area cannot be seen from
16 Potocari and from the place where he was in Bratunac, Potocari at the
17 meeting and so on? Thank you.
18 A. I don't know on the basis of which information Vasic wrote this
19 up. However, he certainly could not have seen that. He knows what his
20 knowledge was when he wrote this.
21 Q. Thank you. Do you know out in the field in the broader area of
22 Zvornik, who could have issued an order for mopping up the area, the
23 theatre of war, civilian or military organs?
24 A. I think it was only the military organs that could have done
25 that. That was their area of responsibility and war operations were
1 still underway, so it was dangerous and it would have been dangerous for
2 civilians to go there.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think we have to redact page 77, lines 5 to 9.
9 Please carry on, Mr. Tolimir.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Tolimir, please slow down. Thank you.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I don't know whether
12 the transcript reflects the witness's last answer. If that is the case,
13 I'm not going to repeat my question. Thank you.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It does. Carry on with your next question,
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
18 Q. During the re-examination you had several questions put to you
19 about Kravica and the attack that took place there, do you remember?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. Did you have any powers in Kravica and in relation to the
22 population of Kravica? Thank you.
23 A. Only in relation to the civilian population in Kravica that was
24 not in the war operation zone.
25 Q. Thank you. This attack that was launched by the Muslims, was it
1 launched in depth in the territory and how many kilometres away was that
2 from the front line?
3 A. That was in depth in the territory, it must be about 10
5 Q. Thank you. Did the Muslims stay in that territory, or after
6 having inflicting these losses, after having killed soldiers and
7 civilians, did they return to the territory that they controlled?
8 A. After having looted and torched, they went back to their
10 Q. Did that look like sabotage more or was it an organised attack in
11 order to liberate parts of a territory? Thank you.
12 A. Perhaps it could be deemed sabotage rather than liberation of
13 territory because they did not stay there. Perhaps they even left it
14 during the course of a single day.
15 Q. Thank you. On page 43 of today's transcript, lines 1 through 9,
16 you said:
17 "Deronjic told me that he was going to a meeting in Bratunac."
18 A. At the command.
19 Q. That's right, the command in Bratunac. Sorry I did not say the
20 command in Bratunac.
21 A. Yes, because we are in Bratunac and the command is in Bratunac.
22 Q. You said that the meeting lasted only 30 minutes and that for the
23 most part what was discussed was what would be done with the Muslims and
24 that that was addressed to all the interlocutors at the meeting; is that
1 A. Yes, that's right. And information about the 10.00 meeting, that
2 it should be attended.
3 Q. Thank you. Was there another topic that remains in your memory
4 that was raised during those 30 minutes?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Thank you. Is it possible that Mr. Deronjic knew that he would
7 not be able to attend that meeting and that that is why he delegated you,
8 because you said that you did not understand why he had delegated you?
9 Is there that possibility that he realised that he could not attend, that
10 he wanted someone from the municipality to attend? Thank you.
11 A. There were three of us from the municipality that came to that
12 meeting. I personally think that Deronjic was trying to dodge that
13 meeting because he, how should I put this, he did not have the fairest
14 possible relations with General Mladic and I think he simply wanted to
15 avoid coming to the meeting.
16 Q. Thank you. Were you the ranking person from the municipality
17 that attended the meeting?
18 A. Somebody else is a senior person to me, the president of the
19 municipality, I was president of the Executive Board.
20 Q. In terms of the responsibility for carrying out the tasks that
21 were referred to here, so were these tasks and assignments first
22 addressed to the president of the Assembly and only then to you as the
23 executive organ who was supposed to carry this out?
24 A. Well, my feeling was that we were all invited there as equals, no
25 one was -- I am sorry. Well, the president of the municipality, and I as
1 president of the Executive Board, and Aleksandar Tesic as head of the
2 Ministry of Defence, and the local priest was in attendance as well.
3 Q. Thank you. Since you mentioned the head of the Ministry of
4 Defence, in war time municipal departments of the Ministry of Defence,
5 were they in the chain of command, and in terms of hierarchy, were they
6 linked to the Ministry of Defence or municipal structures?
7 A. They carried out mobilisation and they were directly subordinated
8 to the Ministry of Defence. Not to the civilian structures of the local
10 Q. Was the civilian protection organ from that ministry also
11 subordinated to them then as well?
12 A. I think so. I'm convinced that that is the case. The Ministry
13 of Defence referred people to the civilian protection, not the
14 Executive Board. The Ministry of Defence mobilised them and referred
15 them there.
16 Q. Thank you. When it comes to the military obligation, it could be
17 work obligation or a military obligation. Was the work obligation under
18 the authorities of the civilian protection or some municipal bodies?
19 Thank you.
20 A. The work obligation was one and the same as the military
21 obligation and the mobilisation was carried out by the Ministry of
22 Defence. Which means that the two obligations are the same. They were
23 equal. Work obligation was where people worked in companies, in
24 institution, schools, health centres. And military obligation is in the
5 A. I didn't understand your question.
6 Q. Let me try and rephrase. If you interrupted any actions that was
7 performed by a gentleman who -- thank you.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have to redact again a question, and you
9 should be very careful with that otherwise we can't come to a conclusion.
10 We have to redact page 80 line 25, through page 81, line 3. Please carry
11 on. And if you want to put questions like these, we should go into
12 private session before.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'll try not to. We
14 are coming to an end.
15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
16 Q. I would ask the witness this: Were you able to interrupt any
17 action performed by the bodies of the civilian protection in the
18 territory of your municipality pursuant to an order of the Ministry of
19 Defence - thank you - or the General Staff?
20 A. [No interpretation]
21 Q. Could you issue a decision for them not to be engaged in those
23 A. No, I couldn't issue such a decision. Nobody ever asked me, nor
24 was I in a position to render such a decision.
25 Q. Could you get involved in the cleanup of the front lines or the
1 theatre of war in any way?
2 A. No, no, not of the front line, but of the town where women and
3 children lived, yes, but not the front line.
4 Q. Well, on occasions you have told us something about the gentleman
5 who was first in Zvornik and then in Banja Koviljaca and further on he
6 underwent surgery, and so and so forth, and then he was found in one of
7 the mass graves. How far was that from the location where your
8 municipality was, where your municipal building was?
9 A. About 50 to 55 kilometres.
10 Q. And how far was the place where he was treated the last time
12 A. About 60 kilometres.
13 Q. Do you remember that we have seen a document here where it says
14 that he was admitted to a bigger hospital after having been discharged
15 from Loznica?
16 A. No, first he was admitted in Koviljaca and then at Loznica, but
17 the distance between the two is about 5 kilometres.
18 Q. Did you, at the time when war activities were taking place in
19 that municipality where Kozluk was located, did you move without an
20 approval of the military bodies?
21 A. I didn't. I didn't have to. It was 55 kilometres away from me.
22 What would I have been doing there in a foreign territory?
23 Q. Thank you very much for the -- witness, for the answers that
24 you've provided here. I would like to thank you for your testimony. I
25 apologise for the unpleasant questions that you had to answer, I wish you
1 a pleasant journey, God bless you and my additional questions are now
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to thank the
4 Trial Chamber for having given me this opportunity to put additional
5 question after the re-examination. I don't want to keep the witness any
6 longer despite the fact that I have a lot more questions to ask him, I
7 would like him to be able to go home. Thank you.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir.
9 Judge Mindua has a question for the witness.
10 Questioned by the Court:
11 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, just a very short
12 question, actually I just need a clarification. When you talked about
13 Muslims who would run away from Bratunac and from Srebrenica --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not receiving any
15 interpretation yet again. Now it's better. I can hear you now. Thank
17 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. I was saying, it's
18 just a clarification question. When we talked about Muslims who were
19 running away from Bratunac and Srebrenica, you said yesterday on page 62,
20 line 15 to 20 of the transcript and today on page 45, line 3 to 8 of the
21 transcript, you mentioned today again that those Muslims did not want to
22 surrender their weapons and they also did not want to surrender because
23 their hands were bloody. Bloody from crimes committed by themselves, of
24 course. Here is my question: Can you please tell us when you were
25 mentioning these bloody crimes, what were you actually alluding to?
1 Which crimes were you talking about, please tell us?
2 A. General Mladic used this term hands covered with blood or bloody
3 hands, and I just quoted him. He said that those men whose hands were
4 covered with blood would be prosecuted or processed. I don't know if
5 I've made myself clear.
6 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, very well. But you do not
7 know which crime these people would have committed? You personally do
8 not know which crimes those are?
9 A. I assume that the general meant constant incursions of the Muslim
10 forces from the enclave into the Serbian villages where they committed
11 crimes, where they killed people, where they looted and torched. I
12 believe that that is what he meant. Many such crimes were committed by
13 the Muslim side in Bratunac municipality. I've told you that probably 90
14 per cent of the Serbian villages in Bratunac and Srebrenica
15 municipalities were torched and destroyed, and I believe that the general
16 meant those people who had done that.
17 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. Last question: Were
18 these crimes committed in 1995, were these crimes committed in 1992 or
19 even in 1993?
20 A. If that the general meant all the crimes starting in 1992 through
21 the entire period of war until about that time in 1995 when he said that.
22 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, witness.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, you will be pleased to hear that this
24 concludes your testimony and your examination. The Chamber would like to
25 thank you for your attendance here in The Hague and for the answers you
1 were able to provide. Now you are free to return to your normal
2 activities. Thank you very much again. We have to adjourn and resume
3 tomorrow in the morning 9.00 in this courtroom.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And please stay there until the Chamber has --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to thank you,
7 Your Honours, as well.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please wait until the Chamber has left the
9 courtroom, witness.
10 Are you on your feet to --
11 MR. VANDERPUYE: I am actually, I'll only be a moment.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Overlapping speakers] ... rising because we
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: I just wanted to, for the benefit of the
15 Trial Chamber, refer you to the discussion that we had preliminarily
16 concerning a witness. I just wanted to let you know that that person is
17 a witness in this case. That person is, for the record, I think it's
18 okay, is PW-066. And you will find the references to the matters that we
19 addressed in the associated evidence, it's a 92 bis witness.
20 In addition, I would let you know also that we do have additional
21 documents that were issued by the chief of public security,
22 Dragomir Vasic, for the 12th of July, 1995. There were about four or
23 five of them and we can make those available to the Trial Chamber too by
24 way of a bar table motion since it was alluded to in this case. The
25 urgent document that is in evidence was a daily report. And that's
1 essentially it.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. For this information. We
3 adjourn now and resume tomorrow at 9.00.
4 [The witness withdrew]
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.
6 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 21st day of
7 October, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.