1 Friday, 29 October 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning. As you can see, only two judges
6 are present today. Judge Mindua, due to an urgent activity, he can't sit
7 with us today. The Chamber has decided to sit only with two judges
8 pursuant to Rule 15 bis.
9 The witness shall be brought in.
10 [The witness takes the stand]
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning Ms. Gallagher.
12 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I have to tell you that the affirmation to tell
14 the truth still applies.
15 WITNESS: ERIN GALLAGHER [Resumed]
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And, Mr. Tolimir, is -- I'm not sure, did you
17 finish yesterday your cross-examination?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, when I said
19 yesterday that I had a question, I meant the first subject from the first
20 day of Ms. Gallagher's testimony. I would now concentrate on the second
21 area of her testimony. Thank you.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Go ahead, please.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning to everyone.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir: [Continued]
25 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Ms. Gallagher. Peace into this
1 house, I hope that this day of trial will end in keeping with God's will,
2 not mine.
3 In your evidence, you said that you had occasion to view, and
4 that we will also have an opportunity to view in the courtroom, other
5 video footage about people gathering in the town, footage other than what
6 is in the video. Apart from the footage from Susnjari in 1995, is there
7 any other video footage available about how the column, the Muslim
8 column, in Jaglici came to be formed?
9 A. My recollection is -- is that the -- at least the footage that I
10 have seen is from that particular individual who we saw shot the footage
11 himself, both in Srebrenica and when the column left Srebrenica towards
13 Q. Thank you. Did you inquire whether anyone else filmed the Muslim
14 column as it was departing towards Susnjari or during the breakout into
15 the territory controlled by the Muslims?
16 A. No, I did not. Not for the purposes of testifying on behalf of
17 this trial video, no.
18 Q. Thank you. On the 29th of September, on page 53993
19 [as interpreted], lines 8 through 14, you said, I quote:
20 "In 1999, we have received some video footage. You will see on
21 the video prepared for the trial by Antelope Productions for the movie
22 'A Cry from the Grave,' broadcast on the BBC, and after that we asked for
23 all the raw footage that was used in making the 'A Cry from the Grave,'
24 they gave us this raw footage."
25 And on page 5995, lines 6 through 9, you said you received a lot
1 of material from Reuters. And --
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear which network.
3 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
4 Q. My question is: Where do all these BBC, Reuters, and other
5 compilations come from? Where did they get this raw footage? Did you
6 perhaps inquire into that?
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before the witness will answer your question, I
8 would like to know the correct page number. I think its wrong, what I
9 can read in the transcript.
10 Mr. Gajic, perhaps you can help us.
11 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Good morning to everyone,
12 Mr. President. The references 5993, lines 8 through 14, and 5995, lines
13 6 through 9.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. Gallagher, are you able to answer the
16 THE WITNESS: The footage that we got from Antelope Productions,
17 they had received from numerous placers, including WTN, Reuters, Poly
18 Archives, BBC, from all different sources. And you'll see -- you've seen
19 much of that footage also from Srpska Radio TV. So in terms of where WTN
20 and Reuters and BBC got their footage, that part we don't know for sure.
21 We see the same footage pretty much everywhere around the world when
22 we've seen the footage of Srebrenica and Potocari and along the road. We
23 know that there were, as we saw in the video, several Srpska Radio TV
24 journalists, and, as well as we know, there were some cameramen attached
25 to the military that were there.
1 My presumption is that the raw footage originally came from them,
2 and it was sold to WTN, Reuters, BBC, all various networks around the
3 world. Antelope Productions got it from them, put together this video,
4 "A Cry from the Grave," and then we received both that documentary that
5 Antelope Productions made as well as all the footage that they had used
6 in putting together their documentary.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
8 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Could you tell us if you had occasion to speak with the cameraman
10 who made the footage that you received from the BBC and other
11 broadcasting companies?
12 A. No, I have not.
13 Q. Did you ask television Sarajevo to provide you with the footage
14 they had of the column and their own films that they made using the
15 footage by (redacted) and other cameramen, films that were later broadcast?
16 A. I know that the OTP received footage from Television Sarajevo,
17 from the Sarajevo police, from Srpska Radio TV, directly years prior. So
18 I know we did get footage from all those sources. I personally -- it was
19 before I came to the OTP.
20 Q. Thank you. But later on when you joined the OTP, did you have
21 occasion to check the authenticity of the footage received before you
22 joined the OTP, footage received from other sources such as cameramen and
23 directly, et cetera?
24 A. And first if I can actually just clarify my last response, in
25 terms of requesting footage from TV Sarajevo, Srpska Radio TV, all
1 different sources, it was for all footage regarding anything to do with
2 the Srebrenica operation. It wasn't specifically about the column. So I
3 just wanted to clarify that bit.
4 In terms of checking the authenticity before I joined the OTP,
5 no. I've certainly looked at quite a bit of footage, both from open
6 sources, from what is available, has been available in the ICTY, of
7 anything regarding Srebrenica and Zepa, so I've seen a lot of different
8 footage. You see much of the exact same footage that we've seen in the
9 trial video. It's very repetitive [Realtime transcript read in error
10 "representative"]. It's fairly obvious that it was very limited the
11 sources -- the source material that we, and perhaps the world, received
12 regarding Srebrenica.
13 When we have also requested any existing footage from -- through
14 governmental requests and we have not received anything in recent years.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Ms. Gallagher, did you say, it is very
16 representative or it is very repetitive?
17 THE WITNESS: Repetitive.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. You were not recorded correctly with
19 this word.
20 Please carry on, Mr. Tolimir.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
1 A. No, this was received prior to me coming to the OTP.
5 A. Yes. When he turned over his video, he had made a statement. So
6 there is a witness statement from him to one of our investigators
7 explaining the footage, how he received it, and how it was turned over.
8 And I can give you an ERN number for his statement.
9 Q. That's not why I'm asking. I think the Defence team has this
10 statement. What I really wanted to know is why filming was interrupted
11 just before arrival to Susnjari; whereas, there is video footage of the
12 moment when the column was arriving at Tuzla?
13 A. What I remember from his statement is that he had run out of --
14 his battery had died at, I think it was, like, 15-something hundred
15 hours, on the 11th, and so that's where it ended. And as I mentioned
16 before, he was going to even throw away his camera and he met an
17 acquaintance who said he would carry it for him. And then when they both
18 ended up making it to Tuzla, he was able to get his camera and the video
19 back. But for him the filming ended because the battery died.
20 Q. Thank you. Since these persons documented these activities, (redacted)
21 and this friend of his, do you know if anyone from the OTP spoke to them
22 about the circumstances under which the column moved and broke out from
23 Susnjari to Tuzla, and is there any record of that? Did any of these two
24 men testify about this before a national court or the international
1 A. Yeah, the statement was only taken of (redacted), and no, I am not
2 aware that he's testified anywhere at all. He was -- the statement was
3 taken in, I think, 2002, and that's it, as far as I am aware, that's the
4 only statement that was taken from him, other than returning the tape to
5 him at another meeting at that time. And, yeah, you see from the
6 statement he mainly is describing what he had videotaped. So it's not a
7 extensive statement about the column and the movements of the column.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry, but if we could, out of an abundance
10 of caution, delete the reference to -- it's page 5, line 24, to the
11 person's name. You know, I now recall that there was a request for
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I don't recall that. Was it a request from the
14 government or his own? I am not sure about that at the moment.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: It was -- it was from the witness. I -- it's
16 from my recollection, and now I remember the effort we made. If you
17 recall, I think we are talking about the same video where we blocked out
18 family members, including the cameraman. I think that's who we are
19 talking about, so if we could just keep that confidential, I think -- I
20 know that it would be appreciated.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We will redact that.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you very much.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I
25 apologise to Mr. McCloskey. I did not know about the understanding
1 between him and the gentleman whose name has to be redacted, but it would
2 have been useful if I had known about the testimony he gave about the
4 Could we now move to Exhibit P624, page 5 of that exhibit.
5 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
6 Q. You can see on this photograph, this Praga was mentioned many
7 times. You even identified the license number. My question is: Did you
8 investigate this yourself or did you present in your answers, in your
9 evidence, the results of investigations by other people?
10 A. What I did was verify that the registration number and that it
11 was a Zvornik -- it was registered to the Zvornik Brigade. So I looked
12 at the vehicle logs, looked at the original vehicle logs, just to make
13 sure that this was accurate information. But as I did not make this
14 book, it was not my initial investigation, I just verified that it was
16 Q. Did I understand correctly that you said you checked this only on
17 the basis of papers, not on the spot?
18 A. No, I have not tracked down the Praga to look at it on the spot.
19 I verified it by the vehicle logs, by the original Zvornik Brigade
20 vehicle logs.
21 Q. We see locations and time, and it says 11 July. Why were you not
22 able to determine the exact date when this photograph was made?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we raise this sheet a little,
24 show the top so the witness can understand what I am asking. I thank the
25 electronic courtroom.
1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Do you now see what I am talking about? Why does it say 10 or 11
3 July 1995?
4 A. Correct, at the time the book and the video was made, it was not
5 known whether it was the 10th or 11th, and we still don't know if it's
6 the 10th or 11th. There was a lot of movement along the road during that
7 time, and particularly the tanks and the Pragas were moving, as you will
8 see from the vehicle logs, were in movement during those days. We know
9 they were in the general area but haven't been able to determine, you
10 know, that particular footage, if that was on the 10th or 11th.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see P624, page 8.
13 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Here again we see it's written 10 or 11 July. Were you able in
15 your investigation into Srebrenica to determine the exact date? Below
16 the photograph of Mr. Jolovic, again it says 10 or 11 July. Were you
17 able to find out the exact date in your investigation?
18 A. At the time, obviously, it wasn't known whether it was the 10th
19 or 11th. It was with the testimony of Vinko Pandurevic where he looked
20 at this video while on the stand, and his recollection was he thought it
21 was on the 10th when Legenda is giving orders to his troops, to the Drina
22 Wolves to move, and he believed that it was right after the
23 counter-attack and that they are overlooking Pusmamici [phoen] village.
24 Q. Thank you. We saw on the video that Mr. Jolovic says, I am on
25 the hard surface or section, and you say it was before the attack. Was
1 it outside the protected area or inside the protected area?
2 A. Yeah, looking -- I know from looking at the map, it is, I think,
3 roughly about, maybe 5 kilometres from Srebrenica. In terms of his exact
4 location, I'm not a hundred per cent sure. I believe this was, you know,
5 close to the border. I am not sure. I don't know.
6 Q. Thank you. We had an opportunity to look at the scenes from
7 Srebrenica and Potocari in the course of your testimony. And those
8 pictures were taken by a Dutch soldier. The film depicts a UN truck
9 transporting the civilian population from the UNPROFOR base in Srebrenica
10 to the base in Potocari. That starts at 14.55 and goes on for some
11 18 minutes. Do you remember all that?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. My question is this: Why didn't you include all that into your
14 clip book, video-clip book? Is there a special reason -- or, rather, the
15 book of stills?
16 A. First, to make it clear, I did not make the stills book. It was
17 made prior to my coming to the OTP, so I am not sure of all the reasons
18 that photographs were selected. I know often times the use of the book
19 was for identifying people, and particularly these Bosnian Serb soldiers,
20 officers, that were there. So when I was using this book during my
21 investigation, it was to try to identify the -- the -- for me, usually,
22 the police that were there along the road. As to why still photographs
23 were not selected for this book, that is my assumption, as to why none
24 were selected of that particular footage.
25 Q. Thank you. Could you recognise anybody who has testified here
1 about the events that were unfolding at that time in the UNPROFOR bases
2 in Srebrenica and Potocari?
3 A. And do you mean specifically from that footage or from any of the
4 footage in Srebrenica and Potocari?
5 Q. Thank you. I mean that footage. Did any of those who could
6 testify about the transport of Muslims from Srebrenica to Potocari
7 actually testify here before this Tribunal, and did you recognise them in
8 this particular footage? And then, after that, in any footage at all as
9 you said it?
10 A. In that particular footage of the refugees coming into the UN
11 base, no, I don't recognise any of the DutchBat soldiers, that any of
12 them have testified here. Certainly later in the footage that you see in
13 Potocari on the 12th and the 13th, you -- some of those I think you have
14 already seen testify and will be testifying here.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, that is a rather broad question.
17 The book is loaded with people, many of whom have testified, so if she is
18 going to be able to answer that completely, I think she would probably
19 need to go through the book. But I am satisfied with the brief answer
20 she gave. I don't know, but in order for it to be complete that would
21 probably be the best way to do it. But, again, it's up to the General.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, carry on.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I asked the witness
24 that because she mentioned what footage was included.
25 Could the Court please produce P624, page 9 in e-court.
1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
2 Q. And let's now see and let's compare whether this footage is much
3 more important than the footage depicting the arrival of the refugees
4 from one UNPROFOR base at another UNPROFOR base.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What is your question?
6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
7 Q. My question: Is it more important to investigate only this still
8 where we don't even see a proper date than the footage depicting refugees
9 being transported from one UNPROFOR base to the other UNPROFOR base and
10 also that latter footage depicts those who participated in these events
11 and who could testify about these events. Is the latter more important
12 than this one that we see now?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's my question, Your Honour.
14 THE WITNESS: Well, certainly, at the time, there were probably
15 hundreds of statements taken from refugees that had been at the base,
16 taken to the base, transferred out of Potocari. So all those statements
17 is initially how the investigation started, then the question became more
18 of who was involved in the -- the attack, the transfer, of the refugees.
19 So the identities of the others became the question and became what was
20 the next important step after many of the witness statements had already
21 been taken of the refugees.
22 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Thank you. In the compilation that has been prepared for this
24 trial, there is also an interview that was given in Potocari by
25 General Radislav Krstic.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the Court please produce
2 P1008, page 42 in Serbian and English, page 57. This will be the footage
3 of General Krstic giving an interview in Srebrenica. That's from
4 02.03.40.42.6 [as interpreted], that's the time.
5 Q. Now we can see both English and Serbian versions. And I'm
7 The General asks General Krstic:
8 "What is your comment of the NATO against the Serbian army? All
9 that is known that the Muslim from this former enclave were constantly
10 attacking and inflicting losses on the Serbs where terrorist actions
11 mostly attacking civilians."
12 This is what Krstic answers:
13 "The action of the NATO air force is puzzling on account of one
14 single reason. They know that the bulk of the Dutch battalion troops
15 have passed onto our territory and requested from us to guarantee their
16 safety. I mean, that is indeed puzzling. We are not scared of the NATO
17 air force. We are proceeding to the very end."
18 My question is this: Did you or anybody from the OTP have an
19 opportunity to interview a Dutch battalion soldier who had crossed to the
20 Serbian side during the activities and did you try to investigate why
21 they had done that? Is it true what General Krstic says here, that they
22 sought protection from the Serbs in view of the fact that they had
23 suffered losses and casualties when they were on the Muslim side? Thank
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's beyond the scope of direct. Nothing to do
2 with her testimony analysing the statements and incidents in this case.
3 And that particular objection, Your Honour, as you know is designed to
4 target examinations, limit the massive time that's spent. That could
5 have been a question for Mr. Ruez, who did the whole investigation, but
6 this witness has been put on for a particular reason and that had nothing
7 to do with the authentication of the video or anything like that.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Chamber is of the view that this witness is
10 capable to answer this question, if there is an answer to that.
11 Ms. Gallagher.
12 THE WITNESS: I -- certainly there have been many statements
13 taken from DutchBat soldiers, and we certainly know that there were a
14 number of them, as you saw in the Hotel Fontana footage, that were --
15 gave themselves up, basically, when their observation posts were overrun,
16 and as you saw they were held as hostages in Hotel Fontana. That is my
17 immediate recollection regarding this. I -- otherwise, I wouldn't really
18 want to say more about any other -- I don't think I'm the appropriate
19 person to answer that question the best. I think there will be some
20 DutchBat soldiers coming up that can answer that better than I can.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I only asked the
23 witness whether she knows if anybody of them had provided a statement,
24 but since Mr. McCloskey suggested what the answer should be, I am not
25 going to proceed with this topic.
1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
2 Q. My next question --
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: To be clear, I have no problem with the General
5 asking questions on that. And, yes, Ms. Gallagher is, of course, capable
6 of answering any questions on Srebrenica. And so I do not want to limit
7 the scope of the General's questions. So I just want to make that -- be
8 clear. I do believe in the principle of beyond the scope of direct, but
9 that is not my call, and so I will -- but I have no problem with any of
10 the rulings or the questions under them. Thank you.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
12 Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I
14 apologise. During the examination-in-chief, this footage was shown with
15 the references that I have mentioned, but let's not waste any more time.
16 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
17 Q. On transcript page 6695, you said that the Muslim civilians had
18 to travel 5 to 7 kilometres on foot from Srebrenica to where they were
19 loaded off the buses and in the Muslim territory. Were you there? Were
20 you on the spot? Did you measure how long the journey was from
21 Srebrenica to the separation line between the territory under the control
22 of the Serbs and the territory under the control of the Muslim army?
23 A. I think we are talking about the footage of Tisca and Luka, when
24 they were dropped off from the buses. As I have mentioned before, I have
25 not been to this area between Tisca and Kladanj. I certainly have not
1 specifically been to this area to measure it. I have looked in the map
2 and that was my rough recollection was around 5 kilometres, but you know,
3 I may be off a couple of kilometres on that one. It's my rough
5 Q. It is very important if you studied the matter from the drop-off
6 point to the border of Republika Srpska, how far was that and how much of
7 that was as an interspace, a no man's land as it were. You will remember
8 the aerial photos that we saw. The last part of my sentence has been
9 misinterpreted, probably due to the speed, so the interpreter did not
10 arrive at -- to interpreting. How far is the place where the Muslims
11 were dropped off in Republika Srpska to the border or the separation line
12 between Republika Srpska and the Muslim-Croatian Federation? Thank you.
13 A. Once again, my answer is the same. I don't know the exact number
14 of kilometres. My rough recollection is still that it's around
15 5 kilometres, but that is my rough recollection. It's based off of
16 looking at a map, not because I measured it myself.
17 Q. Thank you. If it's indeed 5 kilometres from the drop-off point
18 to the border of Republika Srpska, how far is it from the border of
19 Republika Srpska to the place where the refugees were received on the
20 other side by the Federation of Muslims and Croats or Bosnia-Herzegovina?
21 A. My answer is still the same, that the -- the buffer area is still
22 roughly about 5 kilometres, but I really -- I don't -- I can't give you
23 any more information than that about it.
24 Q. Thank you. At the Prosecutor's request, you drew up the
25 separation line. Could the buses enter the buffer area or not?
1 A. My recollection from Colonel Boering's statement is that they
2 were dropped off at the one side of no man's land and the people -- as he
3 called it, and they then walked to -- through the no man's land, the
4 buffer area, to the free territory. So my presumption is no, the buses
5 could not enter into that buffer area.
6 Q. Thank you for your answer. Let's go to my next question. We saw
7 a wire fence in Tuzla in one of the photos, and that wire fence fenced
8 off the area where the refugees were. Did you investigate why they had
9 to be fenced off, or is it perhaps the case that that wired fence had
10 been there even before the refugees arrived?
11 A. No, I had not investigated the fence for the purposes of
12 testifying for this video. I don't know if it was there prior or set up
13 after or during. I don't know.
14 Q. Thank you. Did you investigate why Muslims were forbidden to
15 leave that area? As we saw in the footage, there was a sign there
16 forbidding the Muslims to leave the area, do you know why that was the
17 case? Thank you.
18 I was not very clear in my question. We also saw a police car in
19 the footage and the police were saying that they shouldn't leave the
20 area. Did you have an opportunity later on to investigate why the
21 refugees were not allowed to leave the area? Thank you.
22 A. I was not aware from this footage that the Muslims were not
23 allowed to leave the area. I don't think this part of the video had been
24 subtitled, and, no, not for the purpose of testifying here did I
25 investigate, if that is correct, why they were not allowed to leave the
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Could the Court please produce
4 P1008, page 63 in English, and 47 in Serbian.
5 Q. On the video footage that starts at 2 hours, 18 minutes,
6 20 seconds, and goes on until 2 hours, 18 minutes, and 30 seconds, that
7 footage was taken at Tuzla airport. You can see a police car and you can
8 hear the following messages coming from the police loud speaker.
9 I am just going to read one part of the transcript. Here you can
10 see that it says police on the right-hand side in English, and it says:
11 "Exit from the perimeter of the airport at the main gate. There
12 are about 3.000 refugees ...," and then unintelligible, "... they will be
13 accommodated across southern municipalities. Any individual departure
14 from this area is forbidden.
15 "Notice: This is to inform all refugees from the area of
16 Srebrenica that there will be an organised transportation by buses
17 to ...," unintelligible, "... accommodation facilities and they will be
18 provided medical attention."
19 My first question is this: Did you investigate the reasons why
20 the refugees were not allowed to leave the area where they were first
21 taken in by the Muslims? Thank you.
22 A. Yes, I do see from the transcript. I had certainly forgotten
23 about this quote by the police in it, that they are not allowed to leave
24 the area. No, I have not investigated or spoken with any of the refugees
25 that were there at that time as to why they were not allowed to leave the
1 area, not for the purposes of this testimony.
2 Q. Thank you. Did either you or anybody from the OTP investigate
3 whether the refugees enjoyed the freedom of movement once they arrived in
4 the Muslim territory? Was their accommodation in the municipalities to
5 which they were subsequently transferred and they stay there voluntary or
6 were they forced to go wherever they were told to go?
7 A. Certainly in reading a number of statements from refugees that
8 had arrived in Tuzla, my memory of these statements was they had no place
9 to go. They were, you know, their homes had been in Srebrenica, they
10 have been transferred there, I know they were in makeshift tents in the
11 airport grounds for a while, while accommodations were being found. I
12 don't recollect from these statements that I've read quite a while ago
13 whether they were forced to stay there, allowed not to leave, I don't
14 recall. What I recall is that many of them had no place to go.
15 Q. Thank you for this answer. In your evidence yesterday,
16 page 6994, when asked by Judge Nyambe:
17 "Can you tell who the people are with the horses?"
18 You said:
19 "I don't know exactly who they are, but I believe these are
20 Bosnian Serbs who are returning to the area or are returning to loot, to
21 take the property that was left behind by the Muslims who left."
22 My question is: Were you able to identify during your
23 investigation who the people with the horses are and what they were doing
24 in that film that Judge Nyambe asked you about? Did you try to determine
25 that? If you didn't, that's fine.
1 A. No, I did not try to determine who this -- the men were on the
2 horses. What I recollect from various interviews and statements I've
3 read is that locals from the area, Bosnian Serbs that used to live in the
4 area, were coming back into the villages to loot and reclaim lands and
5 houses and that there was a lot of looting that was going on during that
6 time. And those are statements and interviews that had been done with
7 Bosnian Serb police and officers that were there in July of 1995, but I
8 do not know specifically who those men were with the horses.
9 Q. In any case, you did not investigate that so that any
10 qualification attached to things we know nothing about is out of place.
11 A. Other than -- no, other than that the statements that were made
12 in the interviews about people coming into the village and looting, no,
13 nothing more. I cannot add anything more about the investigation of --
14 of those people.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see the Srebrenica
16 video from 0.05.42 to 0.6.19.
17 We see mortar fire there from Srebrenica in the vicinity of the
18 UNPROFOR base.
19 [Video-clip played]
20 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Aleksandar. Can you tell us in which
22 direction these grenades are fired?
23 A. Yeah, I believe that is near the gas station on the more northern
24 end of the village, so it -- it looks like it's -- like they're firing
25 north but -- slightly north-west, but that is just a -- that's an
1 estimate on my part.
2 Q. Thank you. Is it the case that on the footage before, fire was
3 registered from the Bosnian Serb positions in that direction? Did you
4 look at all of that footage and did you hear before this point any
5 explosions or any fire directed at the mortar or the population gathering
6 for demonstrations and protests?
7 A. And you mean this same footage in the town of Srebrenica, the --
8 immediately before but part of this same footage?
9 Q. That's correct.
10 A. And -- I'm sorry, and do you also mean the original raw footage
11 versus the trial video, or what we've seen in the trial video?
12 Q. I don't know what the original raw foot shows because I didn't
13 see it. I only saw the trial video during examination-in-chief where you
14 can only see the fire from these mortars close to the petrol station.
15 And nobody was firing on the population, otherwise they would not have
16 been gathering, they would have scattered.
17 Perhaps my next question will help you: Was there any attempt to
18 identify the persons around the mortar because they are quite clearly
19 visible on the film?
20 A. Right. To answer your first question, at least at that moment,
21 no, I don't believe that we see any -- any incoming fire onto the people
22 gathered there, not at that moment. A little bit later in this -- the
23 person who made the -- who took this footage, there was some fire that
24 came in a little bit later at some time after 1300 hours on the video.
25 And in terms of identifying those individuals, I am not aware that the
1 men in that -- that footage there were identified. Certainly, they were
2 not identified by the person who made the video in his statement.
3 Q. Is it possible to identify from the film the persons who were
4 firing the mortar near the petrol station around which Muslim civilians
5 were gathering and listening to a speech? This mass of people, were they
6 Serbs or Muslims?
7 A. Right. As we know, there are Muslims that are gathered in
8 Srebrenica before leaving the enclave. And yes, I'm sure some of them
9 can be identified.
10 Q. Thank you. Since you said there was no incoming fire before that
11 from the Serbian side and there was some later on around 1300 hours,
12 would it be fair to say that this mortar fire provoked the later fire you
13 mentioned, and is it a textbook example how enemy fire is provoked and
14 directed at the civilian population because the normal reaction to fire
15 is to return fire?
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. She did not say there was no fire. Of
18 course, she cannot say that. She wasn't there. She may have said that
19 she didn't see any on the video, so that's a completely improper
20 question. He can pose it as a hypothetical, if there was no fire, as it
21 was not seen on the video, then. But he cannot say something that she
22 did not say in the record because that would be improper.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The witness said:
24 "To answer your first question, at least at that moment, no, I
25 don't believe that we see any -- any incoming fire onto the people
1 gathered there, not at that moment."
2 Mr. Tolimir, if you take this formulation into account, you
3 should rephrase your question.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. But the
5 witness also said, I quote:
6 "Perhaps a little later after 1300 hours there was fire."
7 I don't know where, perhaps we can ask her. Was it fire against
8 the civilians, was it shooting at the group of civilians who had gathered
9 and demonstrated. I can ask that, but if Mr. McCloskey doesn't want me
10 to ask that, I don't have to. But she said herself, "Perhaps a little
11 later ...," that means she has a good recollection of the film.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you asked for an interpretation of
13 casualties seen on the footage. Is this really the right witness to make
14 such a conclusion?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since the witness
16 was able to see both the raw footage and the selected footage, I asked
17 whether the mortar fire from the petrol station had provoked any return
18 of fire from the other side and was it a way to cause the other side to
19 fire and cause massive casualties. She said herself there was fire
20 later. I am asking when later, when the civilians had already dispersed
21 or while they were still gathered there.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Your question was quite different. You said:
23 "Is it a textbook example how enemy fire is provoked and directed
24 at the civilian population because the normal reaction to fire is to
25 return fire?"
1 This is a question to get an interpretation of something what
2 happened on the ground. I think you should ask people on the ground who
3 have been taking part in these casualties, but I think this witness is
4 not the proper witness to interpret what has been done on the ground or
5 to be seen in the film. She is not a military expert.
6 Please carry on and be careful with your questions.
7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Thank you, Madam. Would you kindly tell us, did this -- was this
9 fire after 1300 hours directed at civilians or had the civilians already
11 A. What you see in the -- the raw footage is it's not in this
12 immediate location. It looks like it's maybe a couple hundred metres
13 away from the petrol station here. You see a big poof of smoke, and then
14 you see people running. It's a little bit blurry. It's not easy to see.
15 I think that's why it was not used in the trial video and that's what I
16 was referring to, was -- and I can't remember the exact location --
17 excuse me, the exact time. I know it was after 1300 hours. I know it is
18 in the -- the person who made -- who took this footage, it's in his
19 statement as to exactly when that was, I can't recollect right now. And
20 he did briefly describe that they had been fired upon and the people ran.
21 And what you see on the trial videos, you don't catch the
22 immediate fire, you will just see some of the people running afterwards.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: That -- we do have that section that did not make
25 it on the trial video, if that's of interest to the Court.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
2 Mr. Tolimir, carry on.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I am
4 only interested in knowing whether the fire was directed at the civilians
5 gathered around the petrol station or not. Perhaps this is something
6 that persons, including the witness, who have seen the raw footage can
7 tell us.
8 THE WITNESS: It's not right at the people at the petrol station.
9 It doesn't hit them. It looks like it's maybe a couple hundred metres
10 away and you can't see if someone is hit, who is hit, or what is hit.
11 It's a little bit hidden behind, I think, trees, and there are some
12 structures there, some buildings there. So you can't see. The camera
13 isn't able to zoom in close enough to see what actually was hit. So I
14 don't know if anyone or who is hit, if they are civilians or not. I
15 don't know.
16 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Thank you, Ms. Gallagher, for the answers you have provided. I
18 am not going to press you on that. I am just asking for the record
19 because I don't want the record to show that the fire was directed at the
20 civilians who were gathered there. I had no other intention. Thank you.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have concluded my
22 cross-examination, Mr. President. I thank everyone, especially
23 Ms. Gallagher, who showed us the footage and the situations that we would
24 need a lot of time to study properly, as she has already done.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir.
1 Mr. McCloskey, do you have re-examination?
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, just a short -- a few.
3 Re-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
4 Q. On page 20 today, about 1 through 25 on that page -- sorry,
5 that's the wrong location. On -- it was page 3 today, lines 1 through 3,
6 the General asked you basically where did the BBC, Reuters, and the other
7 compilations come from.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I'd like to put on 65 ter 2935 on the screen.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, I am told that this is a document
10 P331 under seal.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Oh, all right. Yeah, it's an intercept so it may
12 have the intercept operator's name on it. So --
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think it's enough if that will not be
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. And it's intercept number 569. So
16 it's not the first one, it's that second one. That's 568, yeah. 569 is
17 the one I would like to direct her attention to. And that's the first
18 part of it we see in the English where it talks about a conversation
19 between a journalist of the press centre of the so-called VRS Main Staff.
20 And we need to flip to the second page in the English, please.
21 Q. It says on that first page in the first conversation at 1435
22 hours, the journalist Vesna Stupar talks with an ITN representative,
23 Neli Petrovic, and tells her that Lieutenant-Colonel Milutinovic had just
24 called and informed her that he could offer her some exclusive recordings
25 from Srebrenica. The price asked, which Vesna told her interlocutor, was
1 the range of 25.000 to 30.000 Deutschmarks.
2 Can you remind us who this Lieutenant-Colonel Milutinovic is, if
3 you know?
4 A. Yes, he was in charge of the press for the VRS Main Staff, and
5 you saw him, not through me, but on the Hotel Fontana footage. In the
6 third meeting he is at the table during that negotiation, and if you
7 haven't already, you will see footage of him also in Zepa.
8 Q. Do you recall reading this intercept among many in the
10 A. Yes, I've seen this intercept before.
11 Q. And I think we have heard of WTN, you mentioned WTN, right? How
12 about ITN, do you know what that is?
13 A. I -- yes, it's International Television Network.
14 Q. And what is that?
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, is this witness able
17 to answer the questions of Mr. McCloskey that were not the subject of her
18 inquiry, regardless of the fact that this footage was not taken from a
19 foreign broadcasting company or camera crew? Mr. McCloskey is now asking
20 about a different kind of material, something that the witness did not
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We don't know that yet.
23 Mr. McCloskey, what is your comment on that?
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: The General clearly asked where all these
25 journalists got this information, and he said BBC, Reuters. And we
1 remember the witness saying earlier besides BBC, Reuters, there was WTN
2 and other journalists. And I think she said that they -- she opined
3 where they might have got them from the original sources when she was
4 talking about which cameramen were at various places, Potocari, combat
5 cameramen, she just testified about that. Now we see the head of the
6 press of the Main Staff VRS press corps, who she has just told us were
7 present in Potocari on the 12th, talking with ITN which is much like, as
8 she has just explained, Reuters, WTN, Associated Press, and offering to
9 sell, and if we get to that part, we'll see what they are wheeling and
10 dealing over. Clearly this is the answer, in my view, to the General's
11 question to her, earlier in the day.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for this explanation. We are satisfied
13 with that. Please carry on.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY:
15 Q. Now, just to go on, and we -- as we can see from this, this is
16 not one of those intercepts that has each line. It's more of a synopsis
17 intercept; is that correct?
18 A. That's what it looks like.
19 Q. Okay. And the synopsis goes on and says:
20 "Explaining what were the recordings showing, Vesna says that
21 there was a young man recorded walking around Srebrenica, the UN forces,
22 the refugees leaving Srebrenica, and this was, as she said, all she
23 managed to remember, while there were other interesting things to."
24 Do those descriptions match any of the footage that we are
25 talking about that was seen on the trial video?
1 A. Yes, it does.
2 Q. Okay. And then there is another synopsis. It's in that same
3 intercept. At 1520 hours, Lieutenant-Colonel Milutinovic is talking
4 directly with someone named Vojo, and they are talking about offering the
5 same material.
6 And then it goes on to say:
7 "Milutinovic says that in question, our VHS video tape recordings
8 which are of very good quality, there are recordings of combat and the
9 entry of the so-called VRS to Srebrenica."
10 And then a conversation with the UN representatives and also a
11 conversation with the representatives of Muslims in Srebrenica and lots
12 of other things. Then in the end, it says that:
13 "Milutinovic managed to reach an agreement on the sale of
14 material for 25.000 Deutschmarks."
15 And had you read -- do you recall reading this intercept at some
16 point in the investigation?
17 A. Yes, I've read it before.
18 Q. Do you think the information contained in it is reliable?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Does that help in answer, in your view, the General's question
21 about where all these news agencies got this material from?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And where would that be?
24 A. Well, certainly, Lieutenant-Colonel Milutinovic was one source.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. Just one more. If we could go to
1 65 ter -- well, that other intercept is already in evidence,
2 Mr. President. If we could go to 65 ter number 3099. I'm sorry, that's
3 P320. It's also in evidence. And I --
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Nyambe has a question. Sorry for
5 interrupting you.
6 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you. In line 8, in answer to
7 Mr. McCloskey's question, you say -- he asked you:
8 "Do you think the information contained in it is reliable," he's
9 referring to an intercept.
10 And you said:
12 How are you able to determine whether information in an intercept
13 is reliable or not? Thank you.
14 THE WITNESS: I certainly know of an example that supports this
15 of other footage. In fact, it involves the Petrovic footage that had
16 been -- had been sold and had been the custody of -- or part of it had
17 been in the custody of the VRS and Lieutenant Milutinovic. So I know
18 that he has been involved in -- in releasing and selling video footage at
19 other times, and I think there is also another intercept regarding this.
20 And so in particular to this situation, I think he has been -- we've
21 shown to be involved in -- it corroborates that he has sold other
22 footage. And, otherwise, in terms of the intercepts they -- we've seen
23 through the course of the investigation, that they have been corroborated
24 by many means and have not been shown to be -- or, I should say, they
25 have been shown to be true and accurate and authentic.
1 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
4 Q. All right. You mention you thought there might -- that there was
5 another intercept on that topic, and so let's go to this one which is
6 CSV. And can you take a look at it and tell us if you recall this one
7 and could this be something that you have -- were thinking of in that
8 last answer or not? And I will just go over it just very briefly. I
9 don't want to read the whole thing, but we see that it's 20 July and
10 that's it's between someone from the aggressor's army which, since it's a
11 Muslim intercept, the aggressor's army would be who?
12 A. The Bosnian Serbs.
13 Q. Okay. And then someone that they couldn't hear but that they
14 thought, as it says, from a news organisation. And it says:
15 "X: We're here in Han Pijesak, there is material, these talks
16 and the conclusions of the talks and the departure of the two Muslims who
17 negotiated with General Mladic and what was agreed for 1000 hours
18 tomorrow. The wounded and ill will start off. The wounded and ill are
19 going to Sarajevo at 1400 hours ..."
20 It goes on and talks about the people that will be leaving. And
21 then it says, X again:
22 "The shot shows General Mladic, General Tolimir, the arrival of
23 two Muslims with a white flag at the UNPROFOR base where the talks were
24 held, then the UN representatives, the two Muslims, the Serbian officers
25 and the generals. The talks, the conclusion of the talks, the salutes,
1 he gives them cigarettes and three bottles of wine and the handshake and
3 Does that description, the two Muslims, the white flag, Mladic,
4 Tolimir, et cetera, recall anything from any -- any tape that has been
5 used in this case and that was part of the investigation?
6 A. Yes, and it seems clearly it's from the negotiations that --
7 regarding Zepa, that happened at Boksanica.
8 Q. Okay. And if you glance through the rest of it, it mentioned
9 Colonel Dudnjik, the commander of the Ukrainian Battalion, was he seen in
10 that segment you were talking about?
11 A. Yes, he's also in that video.
12 Q. It says at the bottom of the English for X to come to Belgrade so
13 you can see its together, sign the contract, and edit the material.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, during this
16 witness's testimony we have not seen any footage of Zepa, only of
17 Srebrenica. I don't know why this transcript of intercepts is being
18 introduced through her. She never mentioned anything about either the
19 intercepts or anything that had happened in Zepa.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think it is clear what Mr. McCloskey is doing.
21 He wants to show how video material was obtained. And we have now a
22 problem, because we are over time now. Perhaps you can explain,
23 Mr. McCloskey, just in brief what is the purpose of this and then we must
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. As I think everyone will
1 recall, the video footage of the Zepa negotiations with General, in
2 quote, negotiations with General Tolimir, Mladic, Dudnjik, the wine,
3 Zepa, Boksanica, as just confirmed by the witness. And that is in
4 evidence. It's part of the same collection that the Court has seen.
5 It's very similar to the Srebrenica collection, the same kind of
6 material, so it goes precisely to the question raised by General Tolimir
7 and it was a good question: Where did the news organisations get this
8 stuff from. And we had one answer for Srebrenica, now we have another
9 answer for Zepa. It's a good question and this is the simple answer.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We don't have any problem with that, but we have
11 to break now and we will resume five minutes past 11.00.
12 --- Recess taken at 10.38 a.m.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 [The witness takes the stand]
15 --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. McCloskey. Please continue.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. Could we have P00334
18 up. Another intercept that's in evidence. It's from the CSB. It's a
19 Muslim intercept, and I'll just briefly go over it as we are waiting for
21 Q. It's -- the English translation says 12 May, 1995, but if we
22 believe that is a typo, actually, a typo in the original that can be
23 sorted out, if you look at all the -- I believe, if you look at all the
24 originals. But in any event, let's just look at the substance of that
25 right now.
1 It's between -- a conversation between a journalist and certain
2 Michael, and they couldn't hear Michael, so it's just a one-sided
3 conversation. And it says:
4 "Morale is lifted, as they say, by three octaves.
5 "You see, I know, they are probably listening to us. We should
6 not take a break so we can finish with Gorazde."
7 It goes on and says:
8 "I would like to ask you, since we have already given film, and
9 it will be broadcast perhaps tonight on some television stations. Our
10 entrance into Srebrenica and that bombing, so give me a call and let me
11 know how it went. We gave of Mladic walking through Srebrenica and
12 looking around town. We gave it to the ITN and that is a TV agency that
13 will sell it to the others."
14 Does that help answer the General's question in -- in your view
15 is this reliable?
16 A. Yes, it does answer the question, and I do believe it's reliable.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In the end it says not "to the others" but "to
18 the other users." It is not a big difference, just for the clarity of
19 the record.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay, thank you, Mr. President.
21 Q. And let me just have one more up there.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: And that is 65 ter 3484. This is a -- not yet in
23 evidence, it's a series of three intercepts. The one I am interested in
24 is number --
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before you continue, Mr. McCloskey.
1 Mr. Gajic. Mr. Gajic? No interpretation?
2 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would kindly ask
3 Mr. McCloskey to slow down a little. Mr. McCloskey actually speaks much
4 faster than the interpreters can follow. It's very difficult to follow
5 in two different languages because the transcript is about three or four
6 lines slower than his actual words.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, of course. I will -- I feel like I'm
9 talking in slow motion, but I can try to slow it down even more. I know
10 it's especially difficult when reading.
11 And this, as I mentioned, is a series of -- it's a print-out of
12 three intercepts, and I am interested in the one that is number 748. Its
13 19 July at 2255 hours. And for some reason we were not -- we did not get
14 the English translation in e-court, but I have it, it's short. And I'll
15 just, if that's okay, read it slow. It's number 748. It's 19 July, 2255
16 hours. Yeah, it's that one in the middle. Perhaps you could blow it up
17 one more time because it's a short one. Thank you.
18 Q. It says a conversation between Milovanovic, and a person, X, who
19 is inaudible. Now, any idea who this Milovanovic might be in your view
20 and memory?
21 A. Well, my immediate response is it's General Milovanovic, Chief of
22 Staff of the VRS Main Staff.
23 Q. Okay. And X is not audible, so again it's one of these where all
24 they have is Milovanovic, and it says, as we can read it:
25 "Yes, hello. Yes, yes. For himself, Radul has just called me."
1 Any idea who Radul is?
2 A. I am not sure.
3 Q. "Listen, I will give it to AP, it will pay me 25, and I don't
4 know what he will do."
5 Then he says:
6 "That's right, that's correct. I don't know. I am not
7 interested in these Palvi. Tomorrow at 0600 hours, I am heading out to
8 the site."
9 Then he goes on to say:
10 "Well, the boss told me to take nothing under 50.000 German marks
11 for tomorrow's work."
12 He goes on to say:
13 "It is all for 50 except for the one of this evening.
14 "All right. Fifty is good. Yes. In the next three days until
15 the wounded civilians and soldiers come out and are in Zepa."
16 And then he goes on to say:
17 "The same cameraman, everything is the same."
18 Then he says:
19 "There is no other crew there. The boss ordered General Tolimir
20 that only one camera can go in. Call again. Bye."
21 Have you seen this before?
22 A. I actually have not seen this intercept before.
23 Q. Do you have any opinion on what -- well, we can see the mention
24 of Zepa here. Does that reference to Zepa have any -- is there any
25 information in that that you can connect to the case, the investigation
1 at all, if we look at the date of 19 July?
2 A. Correct. We know that the meeting at Boksanica happened on July
3 19th, that General Tolimir and General Mladic and Zepa representatives
4 were at.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to know
7 whether this witness is being examined as an expert who provides an
8 opinion about the events which were not presented here, either during the
9 trial or in the examination-in-chief, or maybe the goal of this
10 examination is different. The Prosecutor has just invited the witness to
11 share her opinion with us. I don't mind the witness talking about Zepa,
12 but then I should also be given the right to take that matter further.
13 The issue of Zepa was mentioned neither in the examination-in-chief nor
14 in my cross-examination. Thank you.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I agree with you, Mr. Tolimir, insofar as this
16 witness was not asked about Zepa. This is true.
17 And, Mr. McCloskey, you should be careful with questioning the
18 witness about the situation on the ground.
19 I take it that you are -- want to show how the videos of
20 different situations and events have been obtained. This is, indeed, a
21 correct course of questioning because you, personally, were asking,
22 Mr. Tolimir -- the witness about her knowledge how these videos were
23 produced and obtained by the OTP. The chain of custody and the original
24 source are, as I understand it, the background of your questioning.
25 Mr. McCloskey.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, and that is correct, Mr. President. And
2 that's the principle reason I am putting this intercept up, as we can
3 see, and you'll soon see from my last couple of questions. There is
4 also, in release to that, I think Judge Nyambe brought up the question of
5 intercept authenticity of backing up this topic of films and camera
6 crews. And the witness's answer in that provided brief explanations of
7 why she thought an intercept was authentic and reliable, and so because
8 of that concern, I was asking her those questions to tie this intercept
9 as relevant and authentic before I got to the main point, which we are
10 almost there.
11 Q. At the bottom we see:
12 "There is no other crew there. The boss ordered General Tolimir
13 that only one camera can go in."
14 Now, has there been any footage that we have had and used in this
15 case of video footage in the town of Zepa?
16 A. Footage of inside the town of Zepa in July of 1995 --
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. -- other than -- well, excuse me, we do have footage of inside
19 the town of Zepa in July of 1995.
20 Q. And do you recall if General Tolimir can be seen in that footage?
21 A. Yes, he can.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, I think I can leave it at that,
23 Mr. President, in terms of that. I would offer that intercept into
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey, I -- the witness said she hasn't
1 seen this intercept before. She can't tell anything about the content
2 and the authenticity of this intercept.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, it's my view that the key to the
4 authenticity of the intercept, one of the keys is that the witness has
5 testified that German marks are being sold for video. This backs that
6 up. She is also able to establish that, yes, in fact, there was a camera
7 crew in Zepa, and this is backed up by this intercept. This idea that --
8 or this, and this may not be the right place for this, but the idea that
9 a witness has never seen something really, in my view, is -- is one
10 consideration you should have in determining whether something is
11 admissible but not the only. If the witness's testimony on a point that
12 is being contradicted by something the opposing party brings out is
13 supported by a document, that document, in my view, should be something
14 the Court can see. And that's as true for the Defence side as it is the
15 Prosecution side. And so because we, you know, I don't think you want to
16 see another intercept operator.
17 So the substance of this backs up what she has been saying in
18 response to General Tolimir's question about where this material came
19 from and the Judge's question on is it authentic, because it shows that
20 there is a video -- that they are talking about a video crew in Zepa. So
21 that is something I will hope you will consider in your authenticity --
22 or in your admissibility decision. But, as I hope you will for the
23 Defence as well, because they have brought up documents sometimes that
24 have the same issue, and we will get together with them to determine if
25 there is any such things like that and so their documents can get in as
1 well, but I think it's very important. The substance of a document may
2 be just as important to the witness's testimony, whether or not that
3 witness has ever seen the document.
4 I don't believe in just willy-nilly just bringing documents in.
5 That is a frightening aspect, and I don't want to do that. But I do
6 want, especially since we've had concern about the number of -- she said
7 there were a number of intercepts that helped deal with this issues. And
8 this is one of those. And I have a Judge -- Judge Nyambe is concerned
9 about authenticity of intercepts relating to video, and so that's another
10 reason why I bring this intercept in. So that's -- I guess that's all I
11 have to say on it, Mr. President. Thank you.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for this explanation and clarification
13 of your position.
14 Mr. Tolimir, do you want to comment? What is your position?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the position of the
16 Defence on the intercepts is well known. If this witness has not seen a
17 document and she only saw similar documents, you can't actually testify
18 about a person walking on two legs because you saw another person walking
19 on two legs. I don't think it's acceptable for documents to be admitted
20 through this witness. And we cannot bring Muslim officers here to talk
21 about documents drafted by them, so we cannot reciprocate. If a document
22 may be admitted through a witness about Srebrenica, which were not
23 actually subject of her investigation and research, then you, please,
24 alert me to that fact and I will feel free to introduce documents of any
25 kind through this witness which were not previously on the subject of my
1 cross-examination. And I will have them admitted, or at least ask for
2 their admission.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. We have now the position of
4 the parties on the record. The Chamber will postpone its decision
5 thereon and we come back to that later.
6 Mr. McCloskey, please continue.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: That was the last intercept that I had. So I
8 also have before me, and it doesn't have a 65 ter number, but it was the
9 subject of the General Tolimir's question, and that is the statement.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We should.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- we can. I --
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But now we know to whom you are referring.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: In fact, it's a very short statement, and if I
17 could very -- I'll slowly read the part that has to the with the part of
18 the questioning General Tolimir made, and we should probably go into
19 private session for that.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
21 [Private session]
11 Page 7024 redacted. Private session.
25 [Open session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: We are in public session, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have to thank you for your attendance here,
3 Ms. Gallagher. You are free now to return to your normal work, no
4 restrictions any longer. Thank you very much. And you are free now to
5 leave the courtroom. Thank you.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, I believe Mr. Janc and Mr. Vanderpuye are
9 ready to continue.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. President. Before
12 we continue, could I please ask you -- or, rather, suggest that the
13 recording that was erroneously shown be marked for identification, and
14 then when he has another opportunity to show it maybe we can discuss that
15 recording as well. Thank you.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You mean the last footage, video footage we have
17 just seen?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. The last
19 footage we saw.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. McCloskey.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yeah, the last footage we saw was part of the
22 trial video, the famous gas station mortar crew. And we can, I know,
23 find the other part relatively quickly to show it. So at first chance,
24 we can do that for the General, and I think that's fair enough, since it
25 was a question that he brought up that I was trying to respond to and
1 he's still interested. So I know we can get that, it won't be long.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In that case, we should mark this -- in my
3 understanding, that was part of the raw material of the video and some
4 parts of that were taken into the trial video. Is my understanding
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Actually, that is correct, Mr. President. It --
7 we can mark that separately. As far as I could tell, everything that we
8 saw was played on the trial video but we were playing it from a different
9 tape, so we can -- we should give it another number. Let me get some
10 help from Ms. -- I think the Registrar can give it the appropriate
11 number, that that would be more precise.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be marked for identification.
13 THE REGISTRAR: The video clip, Your Honours, played with 65 ter
14 01382 will be assigned Exhibit P01301.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
16 Now we welcome Mr. Vanderpuye and the next witness shall be
17 brought in.
18 [The witness takes the stand]
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.
20 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Mr. President. I believe
21 on page 45, line 1, the number was wrongly recorded because it appears
22 like this exhibit number is P101.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Just for the purposes of the record,
24 Your Honours, I will repeat the number. The video clip played with
25 65 ter 01382 will be assigned P01301.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Now we have it on the
3 Welcome, Mr. Janc, back to the courtroom. May I remind you that
4 the information you made at the beginning of your testimony on the 15th
5 of April this year, to tell the truth, still applies.
6 WITNESS: DUSAN JANC [Resumed]
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If I recall correctly, Mr. Vanderpuye has
8 concluded his direct examination on the 23rd of September, 2010, and now
9 Mr. Tolimir is prepared to start with his cross-examination.
10 Mr. Tolimir.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:
13 Q. [Interpretation] I'll welcome Mr. Janc, and I have a couple of
14 questions about his earlier testimony.
15 First of all, when you described in examination-in-chief your
16 preparations for giving evidence, on page 5721, line 17 through 21, you
17 said, I quote:
18 "I familiarised myself with the information about the way the OTP
19 got hold of these videos and other material, and I also took into account
20 issues of authenticity in order to prepare for my testimony."
21 I hope I quoted you correctly. Do you agree with this quotation?
22 Did I understand you correctly?
23 A. Yes, that's correct.
24 Q. Does that mean that when preparing for giving evidence you only
25 studied the documentation of the OTP, but you did not participate in any
1 way in collecting the material and establishing its authenticity?
2 A. Yes, of course, I studied the documentation of the OTP and also
3 trying to find facts regarding the -- establishing the authenticity,
4 going through the OTP documents. So those were, I would say, combined
5 issues, so -- which I examined together.
6 Q. Thank you. To be quite precise, did you personally conduct any
7 interview with any person that delivered to the OTP any material that was
8 introduced through you?
9 A. No, I did not.
10 Q. Thank you. Could you then give us your point of view about the
11 authenticity of the material and how this authenticity was determined by
12 the OTP?
13 A. Yes. The videos which we obtained from different sources, for
14 example, we interviewed these individuals, so that was done by my
15 colleagues, not personally by me. And these individuals have told us how
16 did they obtain or how did they come across this material. On the other
17 hand, some of the material, as you also know, was seized from the
18 premises of different individuals, mainly in Serbia, and examining the
19 documentation on the seizure itself, this was one source of getting
20 information of the -- on the authenticity of this material.
21 On the other hand, examining these videos, we have established
22 that -- that several other similar videos already exist in OTP's
23 possession which were obtained before from other different sources, for
24 example, and were also corroborated in these ways.
25 So then the third thing of authenticity was the content on the
1 videos itself. You can -- one can clearly establish going -- reviewing
2 these videos that what is going on is in line with the ongoing
3 investigation -- with the investigation which was done and in line with
4 the documents and the different information which was obtained by the OTP
5 throughout the years. So there are different means how to authenticate
6 these videos, and I was going through these steps in order to
7 authenticate them.
8 Q. Thank you. Do you know, based on studying this documentation,
9 whether OTP staff used experts or studied in any other way some of the
10 material that was used here in the last round of your testimony?
11 A. No, I am not aware that -- if any of these videos were ever
12 examined by any of the experts. So I don't have this information, so I
13 would say they were not examined by any of the experts. But no, they
14 were not. I don't have any such reports, so they were not.
15 Q. Since part of the material was obtained by buying it for very
16 large amounts, you mentioned 200.000 Euros, was such material checked for
17 possible editing? Because these things are impossible to identify when
18 you study the cuts in the movie. Was this material given to any experts
19 to investigate?
20 A. First, I have to correct you here, because I haven't testified
21 that the OTP bought this video for 200.000 Euros. In information --
22 actually, a declaration by the OTP investigator, Tore Soldal. It's
23 clearly written that that was the amount requested by the provider of
24 this video initially, and OTP refused to pay for this video. And later
25 on, this individual gave up and provided the OTP this video free of
1 charge. So the OTP hasn't paid any money for this video. Of course, the
2 authenticity was an issue for the OTP all the time regarding this video,
3 and that's why a lot of interviews, first of all, have been conducted
4 with different individuals, and they have basically confirmed the
5 authenticity for the OTP.
6 On the other hand, as you have seen here, represented on the
7 several images and also presentation of the crime scene itself, and
8 through that, the OTP independently confirmed that what can be seen on
9 the video is, indeed, taking place at that spot. So, regarding the
10 editing, yes, we can see on this video several edits and the OTP hasn't
11 approached any expert to look closely on these additions.
12 Q. Thank you. That's precisely what I wanted to know, and I am
13 satisfied with your answer. I stand corrected that Tore Soldal said that
14 this money was never paid, that some money was turned over for that
15 person to move to a different territory later.
16 Anyway, on this film with several interruptions, you said
17 expertise was never required, but did you wonder at these interruptions
18 in the film because it is mentioned both in the film itself and in the
19 statement that this filming was commissioned?
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. And good morning to
22 you and Your Honours and everyone.
23 I apologise for the interruption, but it seems to me that the
24 question is not clear as to which film we are talking about. I think
25 what we are talking about is Skorpions video. But there were, I think,
1 seven videos that were introduced through Mr. Janc or clips of videos
2 through Mr. Janc. So if General Tolimir could be more specific in the
3 question, I think it would be helpful, at least in terms of clarifying
4 the record, as we go along.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
6 Mr. Tolimir, can you indicate which video you are talking about.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, and thank
8 you, Mr. Vanderpuye. I was talking about what you mentioned -- in fact,
9 what the witness mentioned, and he talked about the killings in Trnovo,
10 and it's good for the record to say whether there was any editing and
11 interruptions on this film. And if the witness could enlighten us about
12 that, considering that no expertise was ever done.
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, as I already said, there are interruptions on
14 this video. You can see them, and the OTP considered them and, of
15 course, we tried to find out if there is any -- if there are any
16 additional footages of these same incidents somewhere else. And that's
17 why we interviewed several individuals, and they all confirmed that
18 that's the entire video as it was filmed at the time. And since it was
19 confirmed through several witnesses, we considered it as authentic.
20 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Thank you. Thank you for that answer. My question was: Is
22 there any additional material or footage that corroborate the
23 authenticity of that film from Trnovo?
24 A. The OTP is not aware or is not in possession of any other footage
25 which would corroborate this video. In relation to additional material,
1 I would -- I would say the statements of the participants, several of
2 them which were obtained by the OTP through interviews or through
3 requests to the authorities of the Republic of Serbia, this is the
4 additional material we have on this incident.
5 Q. Thank you. Since we have already started on the subject of the
6 killings in Trnovo, let's stay on it for a while.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see P1004, page 5 in
8 e-court. It concerns the area of responsibility of the Drina Corps.
9 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
10 Q. And this was introduced into evidence through you and your
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.
13 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Just a small correction, P104.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Thank you. We see this map admitted in the last round of your
17 testimony. Can you tell us whether these executions in Trnovo took place
18 in the area of the Drina Corps or in the area of the
19 Sarajevo Romanija Corps at its -- on its western boundary, as we see on
20 this map where Trnovo is marked.
21 A. These killings took place in Trnovo, which you can see here on
22 the map, which is south of Sarajevo, a few kilometres south of Sarajevo,
23 and this is area of Sarajevo Romanija Corps.
24 Q. [No interpretation]
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, your microphone is off.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise to everyone.
2 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
3 Q. In your evidence in chief, on page 5802, line 21, you estimated
4 that Trnovo is some 200 kilometres away from Srebrenica. Based on that
5 distance and based on this map, isn't it clear that Trnovo is outside the
6 area of responsibility of the Drina Corps?
7 A. I agree with you. This area is outside the Drina Corps area of
8 responsibility. It is inside the Sarajevo Romanija Corps AOR, area of
10 Q. Thank you. We are still talking about information concerning the
11 executions of these six persons in Trnovo. I won't mention their names.
12 Did you personally investigate how they ended up in Trnovo, which is 200
13 kilometres away from Srebrenica?
14 A. Not me personally, but several steps towards this -- this,
15 regarding this issue have been done by the other members of the OTP
16 investigators, my colleagues. And there is a statement of one of the
17 individuals who was interviewed who says that these individuals, not only
18 this also, but some other individuals, were brought from the area of
19 Srebrenica, after the fall of Srebrenica, by buses and trucks to Trnovo
20 area. These buses and trucks were going up and down several times and
21 were bringing the -- the men from Srebrenica down to this area, and these
22 six individuals, those were the last group of those transported down from
23 Srebrenica and were subsequently killed there.
24 Apart from that, I also examined the records on these individuals
25 which we have -- which the OTP has in the possession. So -- and
1 initially, the ICMP missing list and ICRC missing list, they both tell me
2 that these six individuals are reported or have been reported as missing
3 after the fall of Srebrenica. In addition, as I also testified here, we
4 obtained four statements from the relatives of four of those individuals,
5 and they all confirmed to the OTP that those were the individuals who
6 left Srebrenica after its fall. And one of them, who we interviewed, was
7 brother of one who we see killed, and they left Potocari -- sorry,
8 Srebrenica, together through the woods towards Kladanj, and at one point
9 they just miss each other -- missed each other in the woods, and he has
10 never seen him again. So these were the steps I have taken in order to
11 corroborate, these are indeed Srebrenica-related victims.
12 Q. Thank you. This is something new, at least for me. You're
13 saying the buses and lorries transported people from Srebrenica to
14 Trnovo; am I right? Did you say that?
15 A. Yes. And this is according to --
16 Q. Thank you.
17 A. -- one of the --
18 Q. Thank you.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please complete your answer.
20 THE WITNESS: Yes, and this is according to one of the
21 individuals the OTP interviewed. I know his name, but I'm not sure if I
22 can state that in public session, but I'm willing to provide you with the
23 name of this individual.
24 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Thank you. I am not interested in the name. I am interested in
1 the number of people. And if those people were transported by buses and
2 lorries, where are these people? Were their remains found in the
3 locations around Trnovo, and if they were found around Trnovo, were they
4 then returned to the places where their graves were found?
5 A. You're right, and this was also my concern when I read this
6 statement, and still is my concern when I read this statement. And --
7 because he says that the trips -- there were several trips with lorries
8 and buses -- or lorries and truck and -- sorry, trucks and buses and
9 buses or trucks to this area, and this was one of the last groups which
10 was taken down there. And this is, indeed, the only group of
11 individuals, I would say Srebrenica-related individuals which were so far
12 found and identified in this area.
13 So we don't have any additional graves, additional bodies found
14 in this area which are related to Srebrenica events. And as you know,
15 the exhumations are still ongoing process in Bosnia, and not all of the
16 individuals who were already found and identified, and I don't exclude
17 the possibility that in the future there might be additional individuals
18 found in this area buried or on the surface or somewhere, which will be
19 confirmed that they are the individuals which this person was talking us
20 about. So there is a possibility that there is few more of them there,
21 but, so far, we have only these six individuals identified and found.
22 Q. Thank you. I am not going to disclose the person's name in open
23 session, but let me ask you: Has he been asked to testify before this
25 A. I am almost sure he is not on a witness list in this case, but if
1 he was ever called to testify in any other cases, I would need to check
2 that information.
3 Q. Thank you. And since we are talking about just one witness who
4 allegedly saw buses going backwards and forwards, I suppose they must
5 have been transporting a lot of people, was the authenticity of his
6 statement checked in any way? Thank you.
7 A. The OTP tried to obtain -- to obtain more corroborating
8 statements in relation to the same issue; mainly, how and how many
9 individuals were brought from Srebrenica area to this area, if at all
10 any. But we have confirmation already that some of them, these six
11 individuals, were brought down there. And unfortunately the only
12 individual who told us about how they were brought down there was this
13 person who I am talking about. We all, of course, asked all individuals
14 which we interviewed in relation to this same issue these same questions,
15 but they simply haven't told us any significant information. They
16 haven't knew -- they haven't known this information or they simply said
17 they cannot remember it.
18 Q. Thank you. In your previous answer, you said that you assumed
19 that those who were transported from Srebrenica to Trnovo would
20 eventually be discovered. Where do you expect to find their remains? Do
21 you think that they will be found in Trnovo or in Srebrenica?
22 A. It's difficult to say. This would be speculation, because they
23 can be brought down there, and at some point in time, for unknown reason
24 to us, brought back to Srebrenica. So they can be found on either place
25 throughout the Bosnia, I would say, because it's not easy to say just,
1 based on the fact -- on the information we are aware of now where those
2 individuals would be buried if they were killed, of course.
3 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us whether the buses and
4 lorries that the witness testified about, the one who allegedly saw those
5 buses, did they also carry the six persons who were executed in -- at the
6 location in Trnovo?
7 A. Yes. These were part of the -- of the group which was
8 transported down from Srebrenica area to Trnovo, and this was the last
9 group of people transported to this area.
10 Q. Thank you. Do you know that national courts have tried those who
11 are considered responsible for the killings in Trnovo?
12 A. If you can be a little bit more clear. I don't know now the
13 national courts -- at what time, actually?
14 Q. Thank you. Do you know that national courts in the territory of
15 the former Yugoslavia have tried those individuals who had admitted
16 responsibility for the killing of the six persons in Trnovo that you are
17 talking about? They have admitted their guilt and they were charged and
19 A. Yes, correct. Now I know what you are talking about. Yes, they
20 were arrested and tried and convicted in the Republic of Serbia in
21 Belgrade, and they were arrested in 2005.
22 Q. I didn't understand you properly when you say that they were
23 arrested, and then the rest of the sentence I didn't understand because
24 the interpretation was poor.
25 A. I can repeat. These individuals who committed this crime were
1 arrested in Serbia, I mean the Republic of Serbia in 2005, and then they
2 were put on a trial, and they were convicted, yes.
3 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber whether this
4 Tribunal has received documents from the trials of those persons who were
5 held responsible for the crimes in Trnovo?
6 A. Yes. This Tribunal, actually, the OTP is in possession, I would
7 say, of all the -- or most, I would say, most of the documentation which
8 is related to the prosecution of these individuals, from their initial
9 statements to the prosecutor, their trial testimonies, the trial itself,
10 and the judgements. The OTP is in possession of this documentation, yes.
11 Q. Thank you. Did you study that documentation before you came here
12 to testify? Thank you.
13 A. I studied this documentation already before I came to testify,
14 and I also prepared and read some of the material in preparation for this
15 trial, but I have to admit that I haven't read everything.
16 Q. Thank you. Did you at least read the statements of the
17 participants in the killings of those six people in Trnovo that you're
18 testifying about?
19 A. Yes, I think I am sure I read these statements, yes.
20 Q. Thank you. Since you're sure that you read the statements, do
21 you remember any of the statements describing the place where those
22 bodies were found, where that place is, and how far it is from
23 Srebrenica? Do you remember any of that from those statements?
24 A. Not from the top of my head, but if you show me, probably I will
25 remember that.
1 Q. Thank you. I don't have the right to testify, but let me ask you
2 this: The person who arrested them, you say that they had gone to
3 attempt the breakthrough, according to their families, that's what you
4 told us. You said that their families knew that they joined the column
5 that we went in the direction of Susnjari and further on, and then you
6 said that they were brought in, and the witnesses, whom we heard here at
7 this trial, told us how they had come in contact with them.
8 Do you know anything about the link between the Skorpions and
9 those who were killed in Trnovo? How did the Skorpions get in contact
10 with them?
11 A. The clear answer to this is unfortunately not known to the OTP,
12 as yet. So the only information and what kind of information the OTP has
13 on this issue is what I testified about, how these individuals were most
14 probably brought from Srebrenica area to the Trnovo, but how they were
15 arrested or captured, when, on the way through the woods, that
16 information is not known to the OTP.
17 Q. Thank you. The Trial Chamber that tried those persons in
18 Belgrade, did they know at what point, at what location did they come in
19 contact with the persons who were killed in Trnovo? Is it perhaps known
20 from the documentation? Thank you.
21 A. I don't have that recollection of that.
22 Q. Well, since you don't remember, I will not belabour the matter,
23 but I thought that you studied everything thoroughly. But let me ask you
24 something, this: On transcript, page 5085 [as interpreted], lines 25,
25 through page 5086 [as interpreted], line 3, you spoke about the Skorpion
1 deployment, and you said the following:
2 "They were deployed --" or, rather, "there was an order of the
3 10th of July, 1995, signed by the then deputy minister of the interior,
4 Tomo Kovac, for these units to be deployed in Srebrenica in order to
5 assist in the operation that was going on in the Srebrenica enclave."
6 Do you remember that you stated this and that a document was
7 admitted through you on that occasion and that document is number P1025.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the Court please produce
9 P1025. Let's see if the witness remembers what he's stated about the
10 Skorpions and why they are being included in the indictment. Thank you.
11 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can confirm. I do remember saying that, but
12 the document we can see on the screen right now is not the one I have
13 been referring to. That must be a different one. And if I may so, when
14 we are on this document which is on the screen, I have -- I was given a
15 task to check how the OTP obtained this document, and I needed to check
16 that and found out that this was seized in June/July 2003 by the OTP team
17 who has made a visit to the public security centre, at that time
18 Srpsko Sarajevo at Pale, and searched their archive and that's where this
19 document was obtained.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. There are two things.
22 First it -- I think it's at page 58, lines 8 through 9, there is
23 a reference to the witness's prior testimony. And the transcript records
24 that reference incorrectly as 5085 and 5086. It's actually 5805 through
1 And the second relates to the scope of the question that
2 General Tolimir has just put to the witness concerning the reasons why
3 the Skorpions are part of the indictment, which I think is objectionable
4 because it's outside of the ken of witness's knowledge. He can certainly
5 testify as to circumstances of fact that support the allegations that are
6 contained in the indictment, but as for the reasons that it's charged, I
7 think that goes beyond the scope of his direct examination and, in fact,
8 really the purpose of his testimony altogether.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. The problem is that your
10 correction related to the page numbers is again not recorded. Please
11 repeat that to have it clear on the record.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. The correction to the
13 question should be that the reference 5085 through 5086 of the witness's
14 prior testimony in the transcript should be pages 5805 through page 5806.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. And in relation to your
16 concern about the question and the reasons for including it into the
17 indictment, I would agree with your position but the witness has given
18 his answer in the way he can give it.
19 Please continue, Mr. Tolimir.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Let's
21 ask the witness exactly what he spoke about and what he said.
22 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
23 Q. The witness said that Tomo Kovac had issued an order on deploying
24 Skorpions to Srebrenica; is that correct? Thank you.
25 A. Yes, that's correct. Yes.
1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Can the Court please produce 1D289.
2 Thank you. Can I see 1D289. Thank you. I apologise.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think there is a problem with the number again.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. If we have a problem,
5 the document is here, maybe we can show it on the ELMO. In the meantime
6 while the e-court is busy finding the document, maybe after the break we
7 can solve this problem.
8 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Could you please tell us, did you see this document and did you
10 base your statement on that document --
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The document is not on e-court, as I'm told.
12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
13 Q. -- when you mentioned Tomo Kovac?
14 A. Yes, if you are talking now about this document from 10th of
15 July, 1995, the Tomo Kovac document, that's the document I have seen and
16 I have been referring to, yes.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I said the document is not in e-court.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you. Yes, yes, I am
19 talking about that. Thank you. I am talking about this document. And
20 after the break, we will display it since we have it here. If its not in
21 e-court, we will display it on the ELMO.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think it's a good proposal. We should have the
23 second break now and the problem with the document will be resolved
24 during the break. We will resume five minutes before 1.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 12.27 p.m.
1 [The witness stands down]
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. Tolimir. Please go ahead.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
7 Q. You said that a document dated 10 July was admitted through you.
8 Is it the document we see on the screen now?
9 A. Yes, this is the document.
10 Q. Thank you. Was it admitted because of this item 2:
11 "The unit shall consist of the 2nd Special Police Detachment from
12 Sekovici, the 1st Company of the PJP Zvornik SJB, a mixed company of
13 joint RSK, Serbian and RS MUP forces, and a company from the training
14 camp on Jahorina"?
15 A. Correct.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, could you give us the number of the
17 document? We need it on the record.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, 1D289.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. I was asking because before
20 the break we were not sure if that is the correct number, now it's clear.
21 Please carry on.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. That's correct and the
23 witness confirmed it was admitted through him.
24 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
25 Q. We've just read paragraph 2. Is there any reference to the
1 Skorpions there?
2 A. Not directly to Skorpions, but to Serbian MUP. This is minister
3 of interior of the Republic of Serbia, and part of which the Skorpion
4 unit was, and that can be established through a document from 1st of July
5 we've seen on our screen before.
6 Q. Thank you. Before we go back to that document, was this document
7 dated 10 July sent by the Minister of Interior Kovac?
8 A. It is his type-signed signature down there, but we can see it was
9 not signed by him because we have a word "for" if front of the signature,
10 and this is not his signature, and I know that from the fact that I read
11 Kovac, his statement, and he was quite clear that this was not his
12 signature that it was signature of duty operations officer or something
13 like that, the Ministry of Interior office in Sarajevo at that time, and
14 it was signed for him by this individual.
15 Q. On the basis of this document, which is said to have been signed
16 by someone else on behalf of Tomo Kovac and sent to these addresses as an
17 order, is there a single word to the effect that the Skorpions are being
18 sent to Srebrenica?
19 A. There is no single word about the Skorpions -- Skorpion unit
20 itself, but Skorpions were part of the Serbian MUP which was at the
21 Trnovo battle-field at the time, or Sarajevo front, which is written
23 Q. We'll now see that other document which was on the screen before
24 this, which you say is the basis for your assertion that the Skorpions
25 were part of the MUP of Serbia?
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, I tender this
2 document, and then I would like to see in e-court the document that the
3 witness asked for.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The document will be received.
5 THE REGISTRAR: The document, Your Honours, under document ID
6 1D00289 will be assigned Exhibit D00129.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could the witness now
8 be shown the document he asked for, and that's P1025. Thank you. We see
9 the document that the witness asked for.
10 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Tell us, on the basis of what do you claim that the Skorpions
12 were in Srebrenica?
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
14 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. First, I think the
15 question misstates fundamentally the witness's testimony, both on direct
16 and cross-examination.
17 And second of all, I think we can clarify this issue as a matter
18 of position of the Prosecution, which is that the presence of the
19 Skorpions in Srebrenica is not established by this document, nor is it
20 established by the 10 July document. And we are not claiming that that
21 as a matter of fact as yet in this case, and so I don't see that there is
22 any basis for the question. But aside from the position of the
23 Prosecution, I think it's readily apparent from the documents that
24 General Tolimir is using that that is not an assertion that arises from
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. If what the Prosecutor
2 says is correct, then I do not need to ask anymore questions on this
3 document. I called it up in e-court because the witness wanted it.
4 Thank you.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perhaps the witness can answer the question: On
6 the basis of what do you claim that the Skorpions were in Srebrenica?
7 That was the question of Mr. Tolimir, I think, if you are able to answer
8 this question.
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, and I will clarify a little bit.
10 Based on the document we have seen before, or based on that order, the
11 Skorpion unit was ordered to go to Srebrenica. And it doesn't really
12 mean that they went there, so they were just ordered to go there. And so
13 far the Prosecution, I think, does not have any evidence that they were,
14 indeed, in that area. And why we -- we -- why I say that Skorpions were
15 referred as MUP Serbia is because of the paragraph 1 of this document,
16 which we have in front of us from 1st of July, 1995.
17 What it says, the second sentence, it starts: The combat group
18 included certain platoons, and we have two platoons from the Kaman
19 detachment, Plavi, and Skorpion, and then we have in brackets (Serbian
21 And that's why these two documents are related, and that's why I
22 claim that Skorpion unit was part of the Serbian MUP. Not only based on
23 documents -- not only based on these documents, also based on the
24 statement of the witnesses which we interviewed, and they all confirmed
25 that they were part of the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of
1 Serbia at that time.
2 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us whether this reference in the
4 brackets, Serbian MUP, behind Skorpions, could be a mistake? Maybe what
5 was meant was the MUP was Republika Srpska. Sorry, the Republic of
6 Serbian Krajina.
7 I'll ask my question can again: The author of this document, did
8 he perhaps mean the MUP of Serbian Krajina but failed to write that
10 A. I don't think so, the writer of this report, Ljubisa Borovcanin,
11 I think was quite right here because at that time the Skorpion unit was
12 representing the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Serbia at
13 that time. And we can see -- we have seen from the order from 10th of
14 July that there is distinction between those two units, MUP of the
15 Republic of Srpska Krajina and MUP of the Republic of Serbia. So these
16 are two units. And I am sure that Ljubisa Borovcanin was referring to
17 the Skorpions in this document as a member of the Serbian MUP.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see in e-court 1D129,
20 which just got an exhibit number. D129. Thank you.
21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Let us look again at paragraph 2 that we read a moment ago:
23 "The unit shall consist of the 2nd Special Police Detachment from
24 Sekovici, the 1st Company of the Special Police Unit from the Zvornik
25 public security station, a mixed company of the joint Republic of Serbian
1 Krajina, Serbian and RS MUP forces, and a company from the training camp
2 on Jahorina."
3 Now, based on what I've read, my question is: Is it clear from
4 Tomo Kovac's order that the MUP of the Republic of Serbian Krajina is
5 separated from the MUP of Republika Srpska and the MUP of Serbia and
6 that's why they are called joint forces?
7 A. Yes, correct. That's clear from this document, yes.
8 Q. Does that mean, then, that the forces of the so-called Skorpions
9 belonged to the MUP of the Serbian Krajina, not the MUP of Serbia?
10 A. Yes, I understand your concern, now, because -- I mean, previous
11 document we don't have reference to the Republic of Serbian Krajina MUP
12 but only to Serbian MUP, and one can conclude that under Serbian MUP in
13 the document from 1st of July, they covered everything, both from the RSK
14 to the Serbian MUP. But still, regardless of that fact, based on the
15 statements from different individuals which we interviewed, it was made
16 quite clear from their side that Skorpions, at that time, were there
17 under the umbrella of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia. So that's why I
18 am testifying here today that Skorpion unit at that time was under the
19 responsibility of the Republic of Serbia MUP.
20 Q. Thank you. A moment ago you said, "one could conclude." Are you
21 assuming or inferring or concluding?
22 A. I am concluding that that's the fact based on all documents, if
23 you complete -- if you put all the information we have on this unit
24 together, I can conclude that they were under the MUP of the Republic of
1 Q. In this communication that we see, in paragraph 2, signed by
2 somebody on behalf of Tomo Kovac, does it say, "A mixed company of the
3 joint RSK MUP," and that means the MUP of the Republic of Serbian
5 A. Yes, the document speaks for itself, and a joint unit at that
6 time would be -- would consist of all those three MUP forces.
7 Q. Thank you. You said it included the forces of all the three
8 MUPs, but here it says clearly a mixed company, specifying exactly how
9 many units:
10 "A mixed company of the joint RSK," separated by a comma,
11 "Serbian and RS MUP forces and a company from the training camp on
13 Does that mean that in these joint forces of the MUP of the
14 Republic of Serbian Krajina there could have been Skorpions as well?
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
16 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I think the witness
17 has already answered the question. The document, in fact, does speak for
18 itself. What the General is proposing is a rather strained
19 interpretation of what the document plainly reads, which is that:
20 "A mixed company of joint RSK Serbian and RS MUP forces and a
21 company from the training camp at Jahorina."
22 It does not refer to a mixed force within the RSK forces, as the
23 General is suggesting. It refers to a mixed force comprising those three
24 elements and an element from a training camp at Jahorina. It's plain on
25 its face, and I don't see that we are making a point or making any
1 headway with repeated references to a rather contrived interpretation of
2 the document.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think everybody can read the document, indeed.
4 And now you provided Mr. Tolimir with an answer to the question put to
5 the witness. But, indeed, we have received an answer by the witness
6 about his understanding of this document.
7 Do you want to add something, Mr. Tolimir?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
9 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
10 Q. If a mixed company is really joint, like the Prosecutor says,
11 including a unit from the Republic of Serbian Krajina, would it then be
12 logical that the Skorpions would be subordinate to the Republic of
13 Serbian Krajina force because it is from another state, another country?
14 A. I can just repeat again that based on information the OTP has, is
15 that the Skorpion unit was under the umbrella of the MUP of the Republic
16 of Serbia. So we have no indication, no information, that they were, at
17 that time, under the Republic of Serbian Krajina MUP. So that's why I
18 concluded and stated that they were under their authority.
19 Q. Thank you. Do you recall that in your prior evidence you said
20 that these Skorpions hailed from Vukovar, which is the Republic of
21 Croatia, at the time it was the Republic of Serbian Krajina; yes or no?
22 A. Yes, I do remember testifying about that, and I still stand by my
24 Q. Thank you. If that's the Republic of Serbian Krajina, is it then
25 logical that part of the units of the RSK would be subordinated to the
1 MUP of Serbia rather than to their own MUP of the RSK, as Tomo Kovac
2 writes here?
3 A. Logical or not, in wartime a lot of things are possible, and
4 according to information and what I testified about is that at that time
5 Skorpion unit was sent to Trnovo battle-field by the MUP of the Republic
6 of Serbia. At previous occasions, they were in Bosnia. When they were
7 deployed in Bosnia, they were under the Republic of Serbian Krajina at
8 that time, but during the Trnovo battle-field operation, they were under
9 the MUP of the Republic of Serbia.
10 Q. I'm sorry, but that's what you were saying. Now, tell me what's
11 the name of that unit of that Republic of Serbian Krajina MUP which was
12 part of this joint force? Did you find out which unit was that and who
13 was its commander because Tomo Kovac is, by virtue of this order, sending
14 that unit to Trnovo?
15 A. I don't have recollection about it right now, but I think that I
16 came across information, who would those be, but I cannot be -- I cannot
17 give you an exact answer right now. I think I would need to check --
18 re-check Tomo Kovac's statement again to see what he told us about these
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. Just with respect to
22 the last question, there is a reference at page 69, line 17 -- 16 and 17
23 where General Tolimir talks about Tomo Kovac, and by virtue of that
24 order, he says sending that unit to Trnovo. In fact, the document
25 suggests that the unit, at least according to General Tolimir's position
1 so far, was sent to Srebrenica. This is the 10 July 1995 document, so
2 the witness's answer -- so either the question should be put back to the
3 witness or the witness's answer should be interpreted in that context. I
4 believe it was just a misstatement rather than anything else.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
8 Q. If a unit outside of the MUP is coming to join the MUP, is it
9 then logical that the minister of the interior, as was the case here,
10 should send it. And we read here:
11 "Part of the forces involved in the Sarajevo theater of war,"
12 that includes Trnovo, "is sent as an independent unit to the area of
13 Srebrenica in the course of the following day, 11 of July."
14 Does that mean that they were in the area of Trnovo and from
15 Trnovo they were being transferred to Srebrenica?
16 A. Yes, they were in the area of Trnovo at that time, indeed.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since there seems to be a dilemma
18 here over what exactly is the MUP of the Republic of Serbian Krajina and
19 whether this unit was in Sarajevo and in Trnovo, I'd like to see document
20 1D288. We now see the document without translation. Can we see first
21 the last page to see who sent it.
22 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Does it say Ljubisa Borovcanin here, at the bottom of the
24 document, page 4?
25 A. Yes, correct, and I can confirm this is his report.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Would the electronic courtroom
3 display again page 1. Thank you.
4 Q. Before we move on to the questions, can you tell if you had
5 occasion to see this document before and if you have studied?
6 A. I can confirm I have seen this document before.
7 Q. I will now read out for the record the first page and tell you
8 what it's about. This is a report by Mr. Borovcanin covering all the
9 days of the Srebrenica operation, beginning with the 12th of July when he
10 was sent there through the 20th July, which we can see on page 4. I will
11 read the beginning:
12 "Pursuant to an order by the deputy minister of the interior,
13 number 64/95, dated 10 July, 1995, I have been assigned to participate
14 together with part of the MUP forces in the Operation Srebrenica 95,
15 which has been under way for five days now.
16 "The said order specifies that the combat group of the MUP in
17 this sector shall consist of the 2nd Special Police Detachment from
18 Sekovici, the 1st Company of the PJP Zvornik, two companies of the joint
19 forces of the MUP of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, and a company of
20 the MUP from the centre for training on Jahorina.
21 "The establishment of the combat group is scheduled for 11th July
22 by 1200 hours. Out of the said forces, the 2nd Special Police Detachment
23 of Sekovici was involved in combat operations in Srenje [phoen] at the
24 moment when the order was issued. The 1st PJP Zvornik Company had not
25 assembled," so it wasn't even assembled yet, "both companies of the MUP
1 of the RSK were engaged in combat in Trnovo, while the company from the
2 training centre was at its base on Jahorina."
3 And Borovcanin adds:
4 "I received this order at the forward command post in Trnovo
5 where I was commanding the joint forces of the MUP."
6 And my question is: Is there any reference to the MUP of Serbia
7 in this order -- in this report?
8 A. No, I don't see it right now. And I think there is no reference
9 to it.
10 Q. Is there a reference to the MUP of Serbia on the 1st page? I am
11 asking you this since you've told us that you studied the document. You
12 speak Serbian, you read Serbian, you said it so yourself in the previous
13 trials, you said that you use Serbian?
14 A. Yes, I can confirm there is no reference to MUP Serbia.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown the
17 second page, the third page, and finally the fourth page of the document.
18 Thank you. Thank you.
19 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Is there a reference anywhere to the MUP of Serbia on the second
21 page of Borovcanin's report? Thank you.
22 A. No, I don't see any.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now could the third page of the
24 same report be shown to the witness in e-court. Thank you.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It is already on the screen.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise, thank you,
2 Mr. President. Can the witness be shown the fourth page then, thank you.
3 THE WITNESS: I don't see any reference to it.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Thank you. Since there are no references to the MUP of Serbia in
6 the report of the commander who was in charge of those forces, what made
7 you conclude that the MUP was Serbia participated in the action in
9 A. That MUP Serbia participated in action in Trnovo, we can see from
10 two documents, at least we have been going over today. From 1st of July,
11 you can see that they are in the area of Trnovo and the document from 10
12 of July where order of Tomo Kovac is withdrawing this unit from the area
13 of Trnovo, so based on these two documents we can conclude that these
14 unit was in that battle-field.
15 Q. Since you have studied this document, and in chronological terms
16 it describes the events that took place on the 10th and then on the 11th,
17 and then in the penultimate passage it describes the events on the 12th
18 of July, 1995. And then the penultimate passage on the 3rd page
19 describes the events on the 13th of July. And finally, the events on the
20 16th, the 15th, and the 14th July, and then on the 17th, 18th, 19th, and
21 20th of July on the 5th page of the document.
22 My question is this: You speak the language, you studied the
23 document, does Commander Borovcanin refer anywhere in the document to the
24 presence of Skorpions? Thank you.
25 A. I think not, but in order to be 100 per cent sure, I would need
1 to review this document more carefully just to find if there is any
2 Skorpion reference, and I think that we have this document in English, so
3 I am sure the OTP is having it in English.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, we do have this document in
6 English. It appears that it's not been uploaded in the e-court and we
7 are in the process of uploading it into e-court, because as Mr. Gajic
8 knows and General Tolimir knows, this is an important document, a central
9 document in this case. It is 65 ter 5869. It involves
10 Ljubisa Borovcanin, who you know was charged - and convicted, I should
11 say - in the Popovic case in relation to his involvement in the events
12 concerning Srebrenica. This document, as I understand it, is from
13 September or thereabout of 1995. And it effectively recounts the
14 involvement of Mr. Borovcanin and his unit in these events, so you can
15 see that it post-dates the order that was actually issued that is now
16 before the Trial Chamber.
17 But we are endeavouring to get the English document uploaded in
18 the e-court for your benefit, because I think it will resolve many of the
19 issues that the accused has raised throughout this cross-examination.
20 And I would add to the extent that it may be -- it may be of benefit to
21 the Trial Chamber, I certainly can redirect Mr. Janc in this area and
22 with this document in order to clarify these issues.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
24 Mr. Tolimir.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye, for
1 helping us to use the English version of the document.
2 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
3 Q. And since there is an English version, and you said it yourself
4 as a witness, was it used in any other trial before this Tribunal? Was
5 this document considered or was the issue and the problem Skorpions ever
6 considered in any of the other trials before this Tribunal? Thank you.
7 A. I am quite certain that it was an issue at the Popovic et al
8 trial, but I cannot say anything about the other trials.
9 Q. Did you study the entire documentation related to the issue of
10 Skorpions in the case of the persons who were on trial before this
11 Tribunal in the case known as Popovic et al?
12 A. I am sure I studied a lot of documentation in relation to
13 Skorpion -- Skorpions unit, but you never be sure if you reviewed and
14 studied everything, because every day you can find something new. So --
15 and I would say most of the documentation I am sure aware of.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
17 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I understand that
18 this document that we have in front of us in e-court now apparently had
19 had two 65 ter numbers. And the English version can be found under
20 65 ter number 87, and that might be appropriate to pull it up now so that
21 we can all see what it says.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. I hope that can be found.
23 Mr. Tolimir.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I would
25 like to thank Mr. Vanderpuye, as well.
1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
2 Q. And now, can you tell us, please, did you study the documents
3 presented by the Borovcanin Defence? And we know that Borovcanin was in
4 charge of the Skorpion units in Trnovo.
5 A. Yes, I am sure aware of most of documentation which was presented
6 during the trial, so I can confirm that. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us and the Trial Chamber whether any
8 of the things that were committed by the Skorpions were something that
9 those who were accused of the crimes in Srebrenica were charged with?
10 Thank you.
11 A. I think the Trnovo killings, this video, this killing of six
12 Muslim men, this is the only one which -- which was committed by the
13 Skorpions where the OTP indicted individuals in relation to that unit.
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Janc. I asked you this: Since you studied the
15 documentation that was provided by the Defence teams of the accused in
16 the Srebrenica case, are there documents relative to Skorpions in the
17 evidence of the individuals charged with the crimes in Srebrenica?
18 A. I don't really know what -- what do you have in mind, so if you
19 could be more precise I can say, yes, which documents you are referring
20 to, but I think that I responded to you in general terms, yes.
21 Q. Thank you. I asked whether there were any references made to the
22 Skorpions in the Srebrenica trials. You studied the documents and you
23 said that there were such documents. I am asking you whether any of the
24 accused in those cases were charged with the murders comitted by
25 Skorpions in Trnovo? Thank you. Maybe I am not precise enough.
1 Has anybody been found guilty? Has anybody been convicted of
2 those crimes? That's what I'm interested in.
3 A. I am not sure. I would need to review the judgement again. So I
4 think they were, but I am not sure.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
6 MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President. I think you can see by the
7 witness's somewhat tentative answer that it's really -- there is no
8 relevance to the question to any material issue that's been presented
9 through this witness, nor is it germane to the subject matter of the
10 witness's testimony. Frankly, what the witness's knowledge is, as to who
11 was convicted or not convicted of a given crime, is completely irrelevant
12 to any material issue at this trial which, from our point of view, seeks
13 to establish the General's guilt with respect to the crimes that are
14 charged in the indictment which is not necessarily derivative of any
15 other finding of guilt with respect to anybody else.
16 So I don't really see what the point of relevance is to this line
17 of questioning. If the General has a particular avenue in mind that he
18 can articulate, that would be helpful. Otherwise, I just don't see any
19 point in pursuing this particular line.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The witness has answered the question to the best
21 of his knowledge today, and I think we are now in a situation that
22 Mr. Tolimir has only one last question left, and then there are, perhaps,
23 some procedural matters.
24 Do you want to put another question or shall we leave it like
25 this for today?
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. First of
2 all let me explain the relevance of the matter. What is relevant here is
3 the fact that the witness said that he read the documentation in respect
4 of the Srebrenica cases that had to do with Trnovo. He studied all the
5 materials relative to Trnovo.
6 Second of all, I want this document to be admitted into evidence.
7 We see the document both in English and in Serbian. This is a report
8 that was looked at during the Srebrenica group trial. Thank you.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: For the record, the witness didn't say that he
10 studied all materials relative to Trnovo, but probably most of it.
11 This document will be received as an exhibit.
12 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the document under 65 ter number
14 00087 will be assigned Exhibit D00130.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
16 For today this concludes the cross-examination of Mr. Janc. I am
17 not sure when he will be called again into the courtroom for a
18 continuation of the cross-examination. Perhaps Mr. Vanderpuye can give
19 us an estimation, and especially for the benefit of Mr. Tolimir.
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. I think I have an answer. We should
21 be able to put Mr. Janc back on the stand at the end of next week. We
22 have arrangements for an interpreter, a Dutch interpreter to attend to
23 the next witness. Follow that, we have an expert who has a small window
24 of opportunity in which to give his testimony, and so we expect that we
25 would be able to put Mr. Janc on at the end of next week.
1 I think I have the following information for the Trial Chamber
2 with respect to interpretations -- translations, I am sorry, with respect
3 to the following exhibits: P00368 B, 65 ter number 3149 B, now has an
4 English translation; the same for P00841 B, which is 65 ter 2904 B; the
5 same for P00841 C, which is 65 ter 2904 E; and finally, P00854, which is
6 65 ter 6460. All of these have English translations now, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. They are now exhibits.
8 Is there anything else to raise before we adjourn?
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: The only thing that comes to mind,
10 Mr. President, is if Mr. Tolimir can tell us approximately how much he
11 has left for Mr. Janc. That might be helpful also in terms of future
12 scheduling. I might have a brief redirect for him as well, but that
13 might be helpful to know.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Many new
16 issues have been raised here. The witness has not studied all the
17 documents. I expect him to make up for that and study them for when he
18 next appears. The Defence will continue cross-examining him at any time
19 chosen by the Court. We only want the truth to be known and we don't
20 have a problem with him working for the OTP and being contacted by the
22 In the meantime, all we care about is to clarify and get to the
23 bottom of as many issues as possible, both during the cross-examination
24 as well as during the re-examination by the OTP. Thank you.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I take it that you didn't give the Prosecution
1 any indication about the length of your cross-examination; is that
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I said
4 that bearing in mind the schedule of the witnesses who have been planned,
5 we take into account all the reasons. We are not worried about the
6 contacts that the witness may have with the OTP, and the OTP should be
7 the ones to choose the time --
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sorry, there was only one question. Can you give
9 a time estimation. That was all. We are under time pressure, we have to
10 leave the courtroom. It will be needed for another Trial Chamber. Can
11 you give a time estimation; yes or no? This is a very simple question.
12 Mr. Gajic.
13 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] I believe that Mr. Vanderpuye and I
14 will get in touch either today or tomorrow and we will deal with the
15 issue of the time still necessary for the rest of the cross-examination,
16 and I hope that the situation will be somewhat clearer on Monday or on
17 Tuesday at the latest.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. That will be appreciated by the
19 Chamber. We have to adjourn now.
20 Mr. Janc, you have to come back at a later stage. Please bear in
21 mind that you are not allowed to have contact about the content of your
22 testimony during the break. We have to adjourn now and resume next
23 Monday, the 1st of November, in the afternoon, quarter past 2.00 in this
25 [The witness stands down]
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
2 1.52 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday, the
3 1st day of November, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.