Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6983

 1                           Friday, 29 October 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning.  As you can see, only two judges

 6     are present today.  Judge Mindua, due to an urgent activity, he can't sit

 7     with us today.  The Chamber has decided to sit only with two judges

 8     pursuant to Rule 15 bis.

 9             The witness shall be brought in.

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning Ms. Gallagher.

12             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have to tell you that the affirmation to tell

14     the truth still applies.

15                           WITNESS:  ERIN GALLAGHER [Resumed]

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And, Mr. Tolimir, is -- I'm not sure, did you

17     finish yesterday your cross-examination?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, when I said

19     yesterday that I had a question, I meant the first subject from the first

20     day of Ms. Gallagher's testimony.  I would now concentrate on the second

21     area of her testimony.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Go ahead, please.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning to everyone.

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir: [Continued]

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Ms. Gallagher.  Peace into this

Page 6984

 1     house, I hope that this day of trial will end in keeping with God's will,

 2     not mine.

 3             In your evidence, you said that you had occasion to view, and

 4     that we will also have an opportunity to view in the courtroom, other

 5     video footage about people gathering in the town, footage other than what

 6     is in the video.  Apart from the footage from Susnjari in 1995, is there

 7     any other video footage available about how the column, the Muslim

 8     column, in Jaglici came to be formed?

 9        A.   My recollection is -- is that the -- at least the footage that I

10     have seen is from that particular individual who we saw shot the footage

11     himself, both in Srebrenica and when the column left Srebrenica towards

12     Susnjari.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Did you inquire whether anyone else filmed the Muslim

14     column as it was departing towards Susnjari or during the breakout into

15     the territory controlled by the Muslims?

16        A.   No, I did not.  Not for the purposes of testifying on behalf of

17     this trial video, no.

18        Q.   Thank you.  On the 29th of September, on page 53993

19     [as interpreted], lines 8 through 14, you said, I quote:

20             "In 1999, we have received some video footage.  You will see on

21     the video prepared for the trial by Antelope Productions for the movie

22     'A Cry from the Grave,' broadcast on the BBC, and after that we asked for

23     all the raw footage that was used in making the 'A Cry from the Grave,'

24     they gave us this raw footage."

25             And on page 5995, lines 6 through 9, you said you received a lot

Page 6985

 1     of material from Reuters.  And --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't hear which network.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   My question is:  Where do all these BBC, Reuters, and other

 5     compilations come from?  Where did they get this raw footage?  Did you

 6     perhaps inquire into that?

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before the witness will answer your question, I

 8     would like to know the correct page number.  I think its wrong, what I

 9     can read in the transcript.

10             Mr. Gajic, perhaps you can help us.

11             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Good morning to everyone,

12     Mr. President.  The references 5993, lines 8 through 14, and 5995, lines

13     6 through 9.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ms. Gallagher, are you able to answer the

15     question?

16             THE WITNESS:  The footage that we got from Antelope Productions,

17     they had received from numerous placers, including WTN, Reuters, Poly

18     Archives, BBC, from all different sources.  And you'll see -- you've seen

19     much of that footage also from Srpska Radio TV.  So in terms of where WTN

20     and Reuters and BBC got their footage, that part we don't know for sure.

21     We see the same footage pretty much everywhere around the world when

22     we've seen the footage of Srebrenica and Potocari and along the road.  We

23     know that there were, as we saw in the video, several Srpska Radio TV

24     journalists, and, as well as we know, there were some cameramen attached

25     to the military that were there.

Page 6986

 1             My presumption is that the raw footage originally came from them,

 2     and it was sold to WTN, Reuters, BBC, all various networks around the

 3     world.  Antelope Productions got it from them, put together this video,

 4     "A Cry from the Grave," and then we received both that documentary that

 5     Antelope Productions made as well as all the footage that they had used

 6     in putting together their documentary.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Could you tell us if you had occasion to speak with the cameraman

10     who made the footage that you received from the BBC and other

11     broadcasting companies?

12        A.   No, I have not.

13        Q.   Did you ask television Sarajevo to provide you with the footage

14     they had of the column and their own films that they made using the

15   footage by (redacted) and other cameramen, films that were later broadcast?

16        A.   I know that the OTP received footage from Television Sarajevo,

17     from the Sarajevo police, from Srpska Radio TV, directly years prior.  So

18     I know we did get footage from all those sources.  I personally -- it was

19     before I came to the OTP.

20        Q.   Thank you.  But later on when you joined the OTP, did you have

21     occasion to check the authenticity of the footage received before you

22     joined the OTP, footage received from other sources such as cameramen and

23     directly, et cetera?

24        A.   And first if I can actually just clarify my last response, in

25     terms of requesting footage from TV Sarajevo, Srpska Radio TV, all

Page 6987

 1     different sources, it was for all footage regarding anything to do with

 2     the Srebrenica operation.  It wasn't specifically about the column.  So I

 3     just wanted to clarify that bit.

 4             In terms of checking the authenticity before I joined the OTP,

 5     no.  I've certainly looked at quite a bit of footage, both from open

 6     sources, from what is available, has been available in the ICTY, of

 7     anything regarding Srebrenica and Zepa, so I've seen a lot of different

 8     footage.  You see much of the exact same footage that we've seen in the

 9     trial video.  It's very repetitive [Realtime transcript read in error

10     "representative"].  It's fairly obvious that it was very limited the

11     sources -- the source material that we, and perhaps the world, received

12     regarding Srebrenica.

13             When we have also requested any existing footage from -- through

14     governmental requests and we have not received anything in recent years.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Ms. Gallagher, did you say, it is very

16     representative or it is very repetitive?

17             THE WITNESS:  Repetitive.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  You were not recorded correctly with

19     this word.

20             Please carry on, Mr. Tolimir.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 6988

 1        A.   No, this was received prior to me coming to the OTP.

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5        A.   Yes.  When he turned over his video, he had made a statement.  So

 6     there is a witness statement from him to one of our investigators

 7     explaining the footage, how he received it, and how it was turned over.

 8     And I can give you an ERN number for his statement.

 9        Q.   That's not why I'm asking.  I think the Defence team has this

10     statement.  What I really wanted to know is why filming was interrupted

11     just before arrival to Susnjari; whereas, there is video footage of the

12     moment when the column was arriving at Tuzla?

13        A.   What I remember from his statement is that he had run out of --

14     his battery had died at, I think it was, like, 15-something hundred

15     hours, on the 11th, and so that's where it ended.  And as I mentioned

16     before, he was going to even throw away his camera and he met an

17     acquaintance who said he would carry it for him.  And then when they both

18     ended up making it to Tuzla, he was able to get his camera and the video

19     back.  But for him the filming ended because the battery died.

20  Q.   Thank you.  Since these persons documented these activities, (redacted)

21     and this friend of his, do you know if anyone from the OTP spoke to them

22     about the circumstances under which the column moved and broke out from

23     Susnjari to Tuzla, and is there any record of that?  Did any of these two

24     men testify about this before a national court or the international

25     tribunal?

Page 6989

 1        A.  Yeah, the statement was only taken of (redacted), and no, I am not

 2     aware that he's testified anywhere at all.  He was -- the statement was

 3     taken in, I think, 2002, and that's it, as far as I am aware, that's the

 4     only statement that was taken from him, other than returning the tape to

 5     him at another meeting at that time.  And, yeah, you see from the

 6     statement he mainly is describing what he had videotaped.  So it's not a

 7     extensive statement about the column and the movements of the column.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm sorry, but if we could, out of an abundance

10     of caution, delete the reference to -- it's page 5, line 24, to the

11     person's name.  You know, I now recall that there was a request for

12     confidentiality.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I don't recall that.  Was it a request from the

14     government or his own?  I am not sure about that at the moment.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It was -- it was from the witness.  I -- it's

16     from my recollection, and now I remember the effort we made.  If you

17     recall, I think we are talking about the same video where we blocked out

18     family members, including the cameraman.  I think that's who we are

19     talking about, so if we could just keep that confidential, I think -- I

20     know that it would be appreciated.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We will redact that.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you very much.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I

25     apologise to Mr. McCloskey.  I did not know about the understanding

Page 6990

 1     between him and the gentleman whose name has to be redacted, but it would

 2     have been useful if I had known about the testimony he gave about the

 3     column.

 4             Could we now move to Exhibit P624, page 5 of that exhibit.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   You can see on this photograph, this Praga was mentioned many

 7     times.  You even identified the license number.  My question is:  Did you

 8     investigate this yourself or did you present in your answers, in your

 9     evidence, the results of investigations by other people?

10        A.   What I did was verify that the registration number and that it

11     was a Zvornik -- it was registered to the Zvornik Brigade.  So I looked

12     at the vehicle logs, looked at the original vehicle logs, just to make

13     sure that this was accurate information.  But as I did not make this

14     book, it was not my initial investigation, I just verified that it was

15     correct.

16        Q.   Did I understand correctly that you said you checked this only on

17     the basis of papers, not on the spot?

18        A.   No, I have not tracked down the Praga to look at it on the spot.

19     I verified it by the vehicle logs, by the original Zvornik Brigade

20     vehicle logs.

21        Q.   We see locations and time, and it says 11 July.  Why were you not

22     able to determine the exact date when this photograph was made?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we raise this sheet a little,

24     show the top so the witness can understand what I am asking.  I thank the

25     electronic courtroom.

Page 6991

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Do you now see what I am talking about?  Why does it say 10 or 11

 3     July 1995?

 4        A.   Correct, at the time the book and the video was made, it was not

 5     known whether it was the 10th or 11th, and we still don't know if it's

 6     the 10th or 11th.  There was a lot of movement along the road during that

 7     time, and particularly the tanks and the Pragas were moving, as you will

 8     see from the vehicle logs, were in movement during those days.  We know

 9     they were in the general area but haven't been able to determine, you

10     know, that particular footage, if that was on the 10th or 11th.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see P624, page 8.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Here again we see it's written 10 or 11 July.  Were you able in

15     your investigation into Srebrenica to determine the exact date?  Below

16     the photograph of Mr. Jolovic, again it says 10 or 11 July.  Were you

17     able to find out the exact date in your investigation?

18        A.   At the time, obviously, it wasn't known whether it was the 10th

19     or 11th.  It was with the testimony of Vinko Pandurevic where he looked

20     at this video while on the stand, and his recollection was he thought it

21     was on the 10th when Legenda is giving orders to his troops, to the Drina

22     Wolves to move, and he believed that it was right after the

23     counter-attack and that they are overlooking Pusmamici [phoen] village.

24        Q.   Thank you.  We saw on the video that Mr. Jolovic says, I am on

25     the hard surface or section, and you say it was before the attack.  Was

Page 6992

 1     it outside the protected area or inside the protected area?

 2        A.   Yeah, looking -- I know from looking at the map, it is, I think,

 3     roughly about, maybe 5 kilometres from Srebrenica.  In terms of his exact

 4     location, I'm not a hundred per cent sure.  I believe this was, you know,

 5     close to the border.  I am not sure.  I don't know.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  We had an opportunity to look at the scenes from

 7     Srebrenica and Potocari in the course of your testimony.  And those

 8     pictures were taken by a Dutch soldier.  The film depicts a UN truck

 9     transporting the civilian population from the UNPROFOR base in Srebrenica

10     to the base in Potocari.  That starts at 14.55 and goes on for some

11     18 minutes.  Do you remember all that?

12        A.   Yes, I do.

13        Q.   My question is this:  Why didn't you include all that into your

14     clip book, video-clip book?  Is there a special reason -- or, rather, the

15     book of stills?

16        A.   First, to make it clear, I did not make the stills book.  It was

17     made prior to my coming to the OTP, so I am not sure of all the reasons

18     that photographs were selected.  I know often times the use of the book

19     was for identifying people, and particularly these Bosnian Serb soldiers,

20     officers, that were there.  So when I was using this book during my

21     investigation, it was to try to identify the -- the -- for me, usually,

22     the police that were there along the road.  As to why still photographs

23     were not selected for this book, that is my assumption, as to why none

24     were selected of that particular footage.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Could you recognise anybody who has testified here

Page 6993

 1     about the events that were unfolding at that time in the UNPROFOR bases

 2     in Srebrenica and Potocari?

 3        A.   And do you mean specifically from that footage or from any of the

 4     footage in Srebrenica and Potocari?

 5        Q.   Thank you.  I mean that footage.  Did any of those who could

 6     testify about the transport of Muslims from Srebrenica to Potocari

 7     actually testify here before this Tribunal, and did you recognise them in

 8     this particular footage?  And then, after that, in any footage at all as

 9     you said it?

10        A.   In that particular footage of the refugees coming into the UN

11     base, no, I don't recognise any of the DutchBat soldiers, that any of

12     them have testified here.  Certainly later in the footage that you see in

13     Potocari on the 12th and the 13th, you -- some of those I think you have

14     already seen testify and will be testifying here.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, that is a rather broad question.

17     The book is loaded with people, many of whom have testified, so if she is

18     going to be able to answer that completely, I think she would probably

19     need to go through the book.  But I am satisfied with the brief answer

20     she gave.  I don't know, but in order for it to be complete that would

21     probably be the best way to do it.  But, again, it's up to the General.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, carry on.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I asked the witness

24     that because she mentioned what footage was included.

25             Could the Court please produce P624, page 9 in e-court.

Page 6994

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   And let's now see and let's compare whether this footage is much

 3     more important than the footage depicting the arrival of the refugees

 4     from one UNPROFOR base at another UNPROFOR base.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What is your question?

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   My question:  Is it more important to investigate only this still

 8     where we don't even see a proper date than the footage depicting refugees

 9     being transported from one UNPROFOR base to the other UNPROFOR base and

10     also that latter footage depicts those who participated in these events

11     and who could testify about these events.  Is the latter more important

12     than this one that we see now?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's my question, Your Honour.

14             THE WITNESS:  Well, certainly, at the time, there were probably

15     hundreds of statements taken from refugees that had been at the base,

16     taken to the base, transferred out of Potocari.  So all those statements

17     is initially how the investigation started, then the question became more

18     of who was involved in the -- the attack, the transfer, of the refugees.

19     So the identities of the others became the question and became what was

20     the next important step after many of the witness statements had already

21     been taken of the refugees.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Thank you.  In the compilation that has been prepared for this

24     trial, there is also an interview that was given in Potocari by

25     General Radislav Krstic.

Page 6995

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the Court please produce

 2     P1008, page 42 in Serbian and English, page 57.  This will be the footage

 3     of General Krstic giving an interview in Srebrenica.  That's from

 4 [as interpreted], that's the time.

 5        Q.   Now we can see both English and Serbian versions.  And I'm

 6     reading.

 7             The General asks General Krstic:

 8             "What is your comment of the NATO against the Serbian army?  All

 9     that is known that the Muslim from this former enclave were constantly

10     attacking and inflicting losses on the Serbs where terrorist actions

11     mostly attacking civilians."

12             This is what Krstic answers:

13             "The action of the NATO air force is puzzling on account of one

14     single reason.  They know that the bulk of the Dutch battalion troops

15     have passed onto our territory and requested from us to guarantee their

16     safety.  I mean, that is indeed puzzling.  We are not scared of the NATO

17     air force.  We are proceeding to the very end."

18             My question is this:  Did you or anybody from the OTP have an

19     opportunity to interview a Dutch battalion soldier who had crossed to the

20     Serbian side during the activities and did you try to investigate why

21     they had done that?  Is it true what General Krstic says here, that they

22     sought protection from the Serbs in view of the fact that they had

23     suffered losses and casualties when they were on the Muslim side?  Thank

24     you.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

Page 6996

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  It's beyond the scope of direct.  Nothing to do

 2     with her testimony analysing the statements and incidents in this case.

 3     And that particular objection, Your Honour, as you know is designed to

 4     target examinations, limit the massive time that's spent.  That could

 5     have been a question for Mr. Ruez, who did the whole investigation, but

 6     this witness has been put on for a particular reason and that had nothing

 7     to do with the authentication of the video or anything like that.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Chamber is of the view that this witness is

10     capable to answer this question, if there is an answer to that.

11             Ms. Gallagher.

12             THE WITNESS:  I -- certainly there have been many statements

13     taken from DutchBat soldiers, and we certainly know that there were a

14     number of them, as you saw in the Hotel Fontana footage, that were --

15     gave themselves up, basically, when their observation posts were overrun,

16     and as you saw they were held as hostages in Hotel Fontana.  That is my

17     immediate recollection regarding this.  I -- otherwise, I wouldn't really

18     want to say more about any other -- I don't think I'm the appropriate

19     person to answer that question the best.  I think there will be some

20     DutchBat soldiers coming up that can answer that better than I can.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I only asked the

23     witness whether she knows if anybody of them had provided a statement,

24     but since Mr. McCloskey suggested what the answer should be, I am not

25     going to proceed with this topic.

Page 6997

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   My next question --

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  To be clear, I have no problem with the General

 5     asking questions on that.  And, yes, Ms. Gallagher is, of course, capable

 6     of answering any questions on Srebrenica.  And so I do not want to limit

 7     the scope of the General's questions.  So I just want to make that -- be

 8     clear.  I do believe in the principle of beyond the scope of direct, but

 9     that is not my call, and so I will -- but I have no problem with any of

10     the rulings or the questions under them.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

12             Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I

14     apologise.  During the examination-in-chief, this footage was shown with

15     the references that I have mentioned, but let's not waste any more time.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   On transcript page 6695, you said that the Muslim civilians had

18     to travel 5 to 7 kilometres on foot from Srebrenica to where they were

19     loaded off the buses and in the Muslim territory.  Were you there?  Were

20     you on the spot?  Did you measure how long the journey was from

21     Srebrenica to the separation line between the territory under the control

22     of the Serbs and the territory under the control of the Muslim army?

23        A.   I think we are talking about the footage of Tisca and Luka, when

24     they were dropped off from the buses.  As I have mentioned before, I have

25     not been to this area between Tisca and Kladanj.  I certainly have not

Page 6998

 1     specifically been to this area to measure it.  I have looked in the map

 2     and that was my rough recollection was around 5 kilometres, but you know,

 3     I may be off a couple of kilometres on that one.  It's my rough

 4     recollection.

 5        Q.   It is very important if you studied the matter from the drop-off

 6     point to the border of Republika Srpska, how far was that and how much of

 7     that was as an interspace, a no man's land as it were.  You will remember

 8     the aerial photos that we saw.  The last part of my sentence has been

 9     misinterpreted, probably due to the speed, so the interpreter did not

10     arrive at -- to interpreting.  How far is the place where the Muslims

11     were dropped off in Republika Srpska to the border or the separation line

12     between Republika Srpska and the Muslim-Croatian Federation?  Thank you.

13        A.   Once again, my answer is the same.  I don't know the exact number

14     of kilometres.  My rough recollection is still that it's around

15     5 kilometres, but that is my rough recollection.  It's based off of

16     looking at a map, not because I measured it myself.

17        Q.   Thank you.  If it's indeed 5 kilometres from the drop-off point

18     to the border of Republika Srpska, how far is it from the border of

19     Republika Srpska to the place where the refugees were received on the

20     other side by the Federation of Muslims and Croats or Bosnia-Herzegovina?

21        A.   My answer is still the same, that the -- the buffer area is still

22     roughly about 5 kilometres, but I really -- I don't -- I can't give you

23     any more information than that about it.

24        Q.   Thank you.  At the Prosecutor's request, you drew up the

25     separation line.  Could the buses enter the buffer area or not?

Page 6999

 1        A.   My recollection from Colonel Boering's statement is that they

 2     were dropped off at the one side of no man's land and the people -- as he

 3     called it, and they then walked to -- through the no man's land, the

 4     buffer area, to the free territory.  So my presumption is no, the buses

 5     could not enter into that buffer area.

 6        Q.   Thank you for your answer.  Let's go to my next question.  We saw

 7     a wire fence in Tuzla in one of the photos, and that wire fence fenced

 8     off the area where the refugees were.  Did you investigate why they had

 9     to be fenced off, or is it perhaps the case that that wired fence had

10     been there even before the refugees arrived?

11        A.   No, I had not investigated the fence for the purposes of

12     testifying for this video.  I don't know if it was there prior or set up

13     after or during.  I don't know.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Did you investigate why Muslims were forbidden to

15     leave that area?  As we saw in the footage, there was a sign there

16     forbidding the Muslims to leave the area, do you know why that was the

17     case?  Thank you.

18             I was not very clear in my question.  We also saw a police car in

19     the footage and the police were saying that they shouldn't leave the

20     area.  Did you have an opportunity later on to investigate why the

21     refugees were not allowed to leave the area?  Thank you.

22        A.   I was not aware from this footage that the Muslims were not

23     allowed to leave the area.  I don't think this part of the video had been

24     subtitled, and, no, not for the purpose of testifying here did I

25     investigate, if that is correct, why they were not allowed to leave the

Page 7000

 1     area.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Could the Court please produce

 4     P1008, page 63 in English, and 47 in Serbian.

 5        Q.   On the video footage that starts at 2 hours, 18 minutes,

 6     20 seconds, and goes on until 2 hours, 18 minutes, and 30 seconds, that

 7     footage was taken at Tuzla airport.  You can see a police car and you can

 8     hear the following messages coming from the police loud speaker.

 9             I am just going to read one part of the transcript.  Here you can

10     see that it says police on the right-hand side in English, and it says:

11             "Exit from the perimeter of the airport at the main gate.  There

12     are about 3.000 refugees ...," and then unintelligible, "... they will be

13     accommodated across southern municipalities.  Any individual departure

14     from this area is forbidden.

15             "Notice:  This is to inform all refugees from the area of

16     Srebrenica that there will be an organised transportation by buses

17     to ...,"  unintelligible, "... accommodation facilities and they will be

18     provided medical attention."

19             My first question is this:  Did you investigate the reasons why

20     the refugees were not allowed to leave the area where they were first

21     taken in by the Muslims?  Thank you.

22        A.   Yes, I do see from the transcript.  I had certainly forgotten

23     about this quote by the police in it, that they are not allowed to leave

24     the area.  No, I have not investigated or spoken with any of the refugees

25     that were there at that time as to why they were not allowed to leave the

Page 7001

 1     area, not for the purposes of this testimony.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Did either you or anybody from the OTP investigate

 3     whether the refugees enjoyed the freedom of movement once they arrived in

 4     the Muslim territory?  Was their accommodation in the municipalities to

 5     which they were subsequently transferred and they stay there voluntary or

 6     were they forced to go wherever they were told to go?

 7        A.   Certainly in reading a number of statements from refugees that

 8     had arrived in Tuzla, my memory of these statements was they had no place

 9     to go.  They were, you know, their homes had been in Srebrenica, they

10     have been transferred there, I know they were in makeshift tents in the

11     airport grounds for a while, while accommodations were being found.  I

12     don't recollect from these statements that I've read quite a while ago

13     whether they were forced to stay there, allowed not to leave, I don't

14     recall.  What I recall is that many of them had no place to go.

15        Q.   Thank you for this answer.  In your evidence yesterday,

16     page 6994, when asked by Judge Nyambe:

17             "Can you tell who the people are with the horses?"

18             You said:

19             "I don't know exactly who they are, but I believe these are

20     Bosnian Serbs who are returning to the area or are returning to loot, to

21     take the property that was left behind by the Muslims who left."

22             My question is:  Were you able to identify during your

23     investigation who the people with the horses are and what they were doing

24     in that film that Judge Nyambe asked you about?  Did you try to determine

25     that?  If you didn't, that's fine.

Page 7002

 1        A.   No, I did not try to determine who this -- the men were on the

 2     horses.  What I recollect from various interviews and statements I've

 3     read is that locals from the area, Bosnian Serbs that used to live in the

 4     area, were coming back into the villages to loot and reclaim lands and

 5     houses and that there was a lot of looting that was going on during that

 6     time.  And those are statements and interviews that had been done with

 7     Bosnian Serb police and officers that were there in July of 1995, but I

 8     do not know specifically who those men were with the horses.

 9        Q.   In any case, you did not investigate that so that any

10     qualification attached to things we know nothing about is out of place.

11        A.   Other than -- no, other than that the statements that were made

12     in the interviews about people coming into the village and looting, no,

13     nothing more.  I cannot add anything more about the investigation of --

14     of those people.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see the Srebrenica

16     video from 0.05.42 to 0.6.19.

17             We see mortar fire there from Srebrenica in the vicinity of the

18     UNPROFOR base.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you, Aleksandar.  Can you tell us in which

22     direction these grenades are fired?

23        A.   Yeah, I believe that is near the gas station on the more northern

24     end of the village, so it -- it looks like it's -- like they're firing

25     north but -- slightly north-west, but that is just a -- that's an

Page 7003

 1     estimate on my part.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Is it the case that on the footage before, fire was

 3     registered from the Bosnian Serb positions in that direction?  Did you

 4     look at all of that footage and did you hear before this point any

 5     explosions or any fire directed at the mortar or the population gathering

 6     for demonstrations and protests?

 7        A.   And you mean this same footage in the town of Srebrenica, the --

 8     immediately before but part of this same footage?

 9        Q.   That's correct.

10        A.   And -- I'm sorry, and do you also mean the original raw footage

11     versus the trial video, or what we've seen in the trial video?

12        Q.   I don't know what the original raw foot shows because I didn't

13     see it.  I only saw the trial video during examination-in-chief where you

14     can only see the fire from these mortars close to the petrol station.

15     And nobody was firing on the population, otherwise they would not have

16     been gathering, they would have scattered.

17             Perhaps my next question will help you:  Was there any attempt to

18     identify the persons around the mortar because they are quite clearly

19     visible on the film?

20        A.   Right.  To answer your first question, at least at that moment,

21     no, I don't believe that we see any -- any incoming fire onto the people

22     gathered there, not at that moment.  A little bit later in this -- the

23     person who made the -- who took this footage, there was some fire that

24     came in a little bit later at some time after 1300 hours on the video.

25     And in terms of identifying those individuals, I am not aware that the

Page 7004

 1     men in that -- that footage there were identified.  Certainly, they were

 2     not identified by the person who made the video in his statement.

 3        Q.   Is it possible to identify from the film the persons who were

 4     firing the mortar near the petrol station around which Muslim civilians

 5     were gathering and listening to a speech?  This mass of people, were they

 6     Serbs or Muslims?

 7        A.   Right.  As we know, there are Muslims that are gathered in

 8     Srebrenica before leaving the enclave.  And yes, I'm sure some of them

 9     can be identified.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Since you said there was no incoming fire before that

11     from the Serbian side and there was some later on around 1300 hours,

12     would it be fair to say that this mortar fire provoked the later fire you

13     mentioned, and is it a textbook example how enemy fire is provoked and

14     directed at the civilian population because the normal reaction to fire

15     is to return fire?

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes.  She did not say there was no fire.  Of

18     course, she cannot say that.  She wasn't there.  She may have said that

19     she didn't see any on the video, so that's a completely improper

20     question.  He can pose it as a hypothetical, if there was no fire, as it

21     was not seen on the video, then.  But he cannot say something that she

22     did not say in the record because that would be improper.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The witness said:

24             "To answer your first question, at least at that moment, no, I

25     don't believe that we see any -- any incoming fire onto the people

Page 7005

 1     gathered there, not at that moment."

 2             Mr. Tolimir, if you take this formulation into account, you

 3     should rephrase your question.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  But the

 5     witness also said, I quote:

 6             "Perhaps a little later after 1300 hours there was fire."

 7             I don't know where, perhaps we can ask her.  Was it fire against

 8     the civilians, was it shooting at the group of civilians who had gathered

 9     and demonstrated.  I can ask that, but if Mr. McCloskey doesn't want me

10     to ask that, I don't have to.  But she said herself, "Perhaps a little

11     later ...,"  that means she has a good recollection of the film.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you asked for an interpretation of

13     casualties seen on the footage.  Is this really the right witness to make

14     such a conclusion?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since the witness

16     was able to see both the raw footage and the selected footage, I asked

17     whether the mortar fire from the petrol station had provoked any return

18     of fire from the other side and was it a way to cause the other side to

19     fire and cause massive casualties.  She said herself there was fire

20     later.  I am asking when later, when the civilians had already dispersed

21     or while they were still gathered there.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Your question was quite different.  You said:

23             "Is it a textbook example how enemy fire is provoked and directed

24     at the civilian population because the normal reaction to fire is to

25     return fire?"

Page 7006

 1             This is a question to get an interpretation of something what

 2     happened on the ground.  I think you should ask people on the ground who

 3     have been taking part in these casualties, but I think this witness is

 4     not the proper witness to interpret what has been done on the ground or

 5     to be seen in the film.  She is not a military expert.

 6             Please carry on and be careful with your questions.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Thank you, Madam.  Would you kindly tell us, did this -- was this

 9     fire after 1300 hours directed at civilians or had the civilians already

10     dispersed?

11        A.   What you see in the -- the raw footage is it's not in this

12     immediate location.  It looks like it's maybe a couple hundred metres

13     away from the petrol station here.  You see a big poof of smoke, and then

14     you see people running.  It's a little bit blurry.  It's not easy to see.

15     I think that's why it was not used in the trial video and that's what I

16     was referring to, was -- and I can't remember the exact location --

17     excuse me, the exact time.  I know it was after 1300 hours.  I know it is

18     in the -- the person who made -- who took this footage, it's in his

19     statement as to exactly when that was, I can't recollect right now.  And

20     he did briefly describe that they had been fired upon and the people ran.

21             And what you see on the trial videos, you don't catch the

22     immediate fire, you will just see some of the people running afterwards.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That -- we do have that section that did not make

25     it on the trial video, if that's of interest to the Court.

Page 7007

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 2             Mr. Tolimir, carry on.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I am

 4     only interested in knowing whether the fire was directed at the civilians

 5     gathered around the petrol station or not.  Perhaps this is something

 6     that persons, including the witness, who have seen the raw footage can

 7     tell us.

 8             THE WITNESS:  It's not right at the people at the petrol station.

 9     It doesn't hit them.  It looks like it's maybe a couple hundred metres

10     away and you can't see if someone is hit, who is hit, or what is hit.

11     It's a little bit hidden behind, I think, trees, and there are some

12     structures there, some buildings there.  So you can't see.  The camera

13     isn't able to zoom in close enough to see what actually was hit.  So I

14     don't know if anyone or who is hit, if they are civilians or not.  I

15     don't know.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Thank you, Ms. Gallagher, for the answers you have provided.  I

18     am not going to press you on that.  I am just asking for the record

19     because I don't want the record to show that the fire was directed at the

20     civilians who were gathered there.  I had no other intention.  Thank you.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have concluded my

22     cross-examination, Mr. President.  I thank everyone, especially

23     Ms. Gallagher, who showed us the footage and the situations that we would

24     need a lot of time to study properly, as she has already done.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir.

Page 7008

 1             Mr. McCloskey, do you have re-examination?

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, just a short -- a few.

 3                           Re-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

 4        Q.   On page 20 today, about 1 through 25 on that page -- sorry,

 5     that's the wrong location.  On -- it was page 3 today, lines 1 through 3,

 6     the General asked you basically where did the BBC, Reuters, and the other

 7     compilations come from.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And I'd like to put on 65 ter 2935 on the screen.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, I am told that this is a document

10     P331 under seal.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Oh, all right.  Yeah, it's an intercept so it may

12     have the intercept operator's name on it.  So --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think it's enough if that will not be

14     broadcast.

15             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.  And it's intercept number 569.  So

16     it's not the first one, it's that second one.  That's 568, yeah.  569 is

17     the one I would like to direct her attention to.  And that's the first

18     part of it we see in the English where it talks about a conversation

19     between a journalist of the press centre of the so-called VRS Main Staff.

20             And we need to flip to the second page in the English, please.

21        Q.   It says on that first page in the first conversation at 1435

22     hours, the journalist Vesna Stupar talks with an ITN representative,

23     Neli Petrovic, and tells her that Lieutenant-Colonel Milutinovic had just

24     called and informed her that he could offer her some exclusive recordings

25     from Srebrenica.  The price asked, which Vesna told her interlocutor, was

Page 7009

 1     the range of 25.000 to 30.000 Deutschmarks.

 2             Can you remind us who this Lieutenant-Colonel Milutinovic is, if

 3     you know?

 4        A.   Yes, he was in charge of the press for the VRS Main Staff, and

 5     you saw him, not through me, but on the Hotel Fontana footage.  In the

 6     third meeting he is at the table during that negotiation, and if you

 7     haven't already, you will see footage of him also in Zepa.

 8        Q.   Do you recall reading this intercept among many in the

 9     investigation?

10        A.   Yes, I've seen this intercept before.

11        Q.   And I think we have heard of WTN, you mentioned WTN, right?  How

12     about ITN, do you know what that is?

13        A.   I -- yes, it's International Television Network.

14        Q.   And what is that?

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, is this witness able

17     to answer the questions of Mr. McCloskey that were not the subject of her

18     inquiry, regardless of the fact that this footage was not taken from a

19     foreign broadcasting company or camera crew?  Mr. McCloskey is now asking

20     about a different kind of material, something that the witness did not

21     study.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We don't know that yet.

23             Mr. McCloskey, what is your comment on that?

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  The General clearly asked where all these

25     journalists got this information, and he said BBC, Reuters.  And we

Page 7010

 1     remember the witness saying earlier besides BBC, Reuters, there was WTN

 2     and other journalists.  And I think she said that they -- she opined

 3     where they might have got them from the original sources when she was

 4     talking about which cameramen were at various places, Potocari, combat

 5     cameramen, she just testified about that.  Now we see the head of the

 6     press of the Main Staff VRS press corps, who she has just told us were

 7     present in Potocari on the 12th, talking with ITN which is much like, as

 8     she has just explained, Reuters, WTN, Associated Press, and offering to

 9     sell, and if we get to that part, we'll see what they are wheeling and

10     dealing over.  Clearly this is the answer, in my view, to the General's

11     question to her, earlier in the day.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for this explanation.  We are satisfied

13     with that.  Please carry on.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:

15        Q.   Now, just to go on, and we -- as we can see from this, this is

16     not one of those intercepts that has each line.  It's more of a synopsis

17     intercept; is that correct?

18        A.   That's what it looks like.

19        Q.   Okay.  And the synopsis goes on and says:

20             "Explaining what were the recordings showing, Vesna says that

21     there was a young man recorded walking around Srebrenica, the UN forces,

22     the refugees leaving Srebrenica, and this was, as she said, all she

23     managed to remember, while there were other interesting things to."

24             Do those descriptions match any of the footage that we are

25     talking about that was seen on the trial video?

Page 7011

 1        A.   Yes, it does.

 2        Q.   Okay.  And then there is another synopsis.  It's in that same

 3     intercept.  At 1520 hours, Lieutenant-Colonel Milutinovic is talking

 4     directly with someone named Vojo, and they are talking about offering the

 5     same material.

 6             And then it goes on to say:

 7             "Milutinovic says that in question, our VHS video tape recordings

 8     which are of very good quality, there are recordings of combat and the

 9     entry of the so-called VRS to Srebrenica."

10             And then a conversation with the UN representatives and also a

11     conversation with the representatives of Muslims in Srebrenica and lots

12     of other things.  Then in the end, it says that:

13             "Milutinovic managed to reach an agreement on the sale of

14     material for 25.000 Deutschmarks."

15             And had you read -- do you recall reading this intercept at some

16     point in the investigation?

17        A.   Yes, I've read it before.

18        Q.   Do you think the information contained in it is reliable?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Does that help in answer, in your view, the General's question

21     about where all these news agencies got this material from?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And where would that be?

24        A.   Well, certainly, Lieutenant-Colonel Milutinovic was one source.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  All right.  Just one more.  If we could go to

Page 7012

 1     65 ter -- well, that other intercept is already in evidence,

 2     Mr. President.  If we could go to 65 ter number 3099.  I'm sorry, that's

 3     P320.  It's also in evidence.  And I --

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Nyambe has a question.  Sorry for

 5     interrupting you.

 6             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.  In line 8, in answer to

 7     Mr. McCloskey's question, you say -- he asked you:

 8             "Do you think the information contained in it is reliable," he's

 9     referring to an intercept.

10             And you said:

11             "Yes."

12             How are you able to determine whether information in an intercept

13     is reliable or not?  Thank you.

14             THE WITNESS:  I certainly know of an example that supports this

15     of other footage.  In fact, it involves the Petrovic footage that had

16     been -- had been sold and had been the custody of -- or part of it had

17     been in the custody of the VRS and Lieutenant Milutinovic.  So I know

18     that he has been involved in -- in releasing and selling video footage at

19     other times, and I think there is also another intercept regarding this.

20     And so in particular to this situation, I think he has been -- we've

21     shown to be involved in -- it corroborates that he has sold other

22     footage.  And, otherwise, in terms of the intercepts they -- we've seen

23     through the course of the investigation, that they have been corroborated

24     by many means and have not been shown to be -- or, I should say, they

25     have been shown to be true and accurate and authentic.

Page 7013

 1             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

 4        Q.   All right.  You mention you thought there might -- that there was

 5     another intercept on that topic, and so let's go to this one which is

 6     CSV.  And can you take a look at it and tell us if you recall this one

 7     and could this be something that you have -- were thinking of in that

 8     last answer or not?  And I will just go over it just very briefly.  I

 9     don't want to read the whole thing, but we see that it's 20 July and

10     that's it's between someone from the aggressor's army which, since it's a

11     Muslim intercept, the aggressor's army would be who?

12        A.   The Bosnian Serbs.

13        Q.   Okay.  And then someone that they couldn't hear but that they

14     thought, as it says, from a news organisation.  And it says:

15             "X:  We're here in Han Pijesak, there is material, these talks

16     and the conclusions of the talks and the departure of the two Muslims who

17     negotiated with General Mladic and what was agreed for 1000 hours

18     tomorrow.  The wounded and ill will start off.  The wounded and ill are

19     going to Sarajevo at 1400 hours ..."

20             It goes on and talks about the people that will be leaving.  And

21     then it says, X again:

22             "The shot shows General Mladic, General Tolimir, the arrival of

23     two Muslims with a white flag at the UNPROFOR base where the talks were

24     held, then the UN representatives, the two Muslims, the Serbian officers

25     and the generals.  The talks, the conclusion of the talks, the salutes,

Page 7014

 1     he gives them cigarettes and three bottles of wine and the handshake and

 2     departure."

 3             Does that description, the two Muslims, the white flag, Mladic,

 4     Tolimir, et cetera, recall anything from any -- any tape that has been

 5     used in this case and that was part of the investigation?

 6        A.   Yes, and it seems clearly it's from the negotiations that --

 7     regarding Zepa, that happened at Boksanica.

 8        Q.   Okay.  And if you glance through the rest of it, it mentioned

 9     Colonel Dudnjik, the commander of the Ukrainian Battalion, was he seen in

10     that segment you were talking about?

11        A.   Yes, he's also in that video.

12        Q.   It says at the bottom of the English for X to come to Belgrade so

13     you can see its together, sign the contract, and edit the material.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, during this

16     witness's testimony we have not seen any footage of Zepa, only of

17     Srebrenica.  I don't know why this transcript of intercepts is being

18     introduced through her.  She never mentioned anything about either the

19     intercepts or anything that had happened in Zepa.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think it is clear what Mr. McCloskey is doing.

21     He wants to show how video material was obtained.  And we have now a

22     problem, because we are over time now.  Perhaps you can explain,

23     Mr. McCloskey, just in brief what is the purpose of this and then we must

24     break.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President.  As I think everyone will

Page 7015

 1     recall, the video footage of the Zepa negotiations with General, in

 2     quote, negotiations with General Tolimir, Mladic, Dudnjik, the wine,

 3     Zepa, Boksanica, as just confirmed by the witness.  And that is in

 4     evidence.  It's part of the same collection that the Court has seen.

 5     It's very similar to the Srebrenica collection, the same kind of

 6     material, so it goes precisely to the question raised by General Tolimir

 7     and it was a good question:  Where did the news organisations get this

 8     stuff from.  And we had one answer for Srebrenica, now we have another

 9     answer for Zepa.  It's a good question and this is the simple answer.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We don't have any problem with that, but we have

11     to break now and we will resume five minutes past 11.00.

12                           --- Recess taken at 10.38 a.m.

13                           [The witness stands down]

14                           [The witness takes the stand]

15                           --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey.  Please continue.

17             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Could we have P00334

18     up.  Another intercept that's in evidence.  It's from the CSB.  It's a

19     Muslim intercept, and I'll just briefly go over it as we are waiting for

20     it.

21        Q.   It's -- the English translation says 12 May, 1995, but if we

22     believe that is a typo, actually, a typo in the original that can be

23     sorted out, if you look at all the -- I believe, if you look at all the

24     originals.  But in any event, let's just look at the substance of that

25     right now.

Page 7016

 1             It's between -- a conversation between a journalist and certain

 2     Michael, and they couldn't hear Michael, so it's just a one-sided

 3     conversation.  And it says:

 4             "Morale is lifted, as they say, by three octaves.

 5             "You see, I know, they are probably listening to us.  We should

 6     not take a break so we can finish with Gorazde."

 7             It goes on and says:

 8             "I would like to ask you, since we have already given film, and

 9     it will be broadcast perhaps tonight on some television stations.  Our

10     entrance into Srebrenica and that bombing, so give me a call and let me

11     know how it went.  We gave of Mladic walking through Srebrenica and

12     looking around town.  We gave it to the ITN and that is a TV agency that

13     will sell it to the others."

14             Does that help answer the General's question in -- in your view

15     is this reliable?

16        A.   Yes, it does answer the question, and I do believe it's reliable.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In the end it says not "to the others" but "to

18     the other users."  It is not a big difference, just for the clarity of

19     the record.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Okay, thank you, Mr. President.

21        Q.   And let me just have one more up there.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And that is 65 ter 3484.  This is a -- not yet in

23     evidence, it's a series of three intercepts.  The one I am interested in

24     is number --

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before you continue, Mr. McCloskey.

Page 7017

 1             Mr. Gajic.  Mr. Gajic?  No interpretation?

 2             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would kindly ask

 3     Mr. McCloskey to slow down a little.  Mr. McCloskey actually speaks much

 4     faster than the interpreters can follow.  It's very difficult to follow

 5     in two different languages because the transcript is about three or four

 6     lines slower than his actual words.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, of course.  I will -- I feel like I'm

 9     talking in slow motion, but I can try to slow it down even more.  I know

10     it's especially difficult when reading.

11             And this, as I mentioned, is a series of -- it's a print-out of

12     three intercepts, and I am interested in the one that is number 748.  Its

13     19 July at 2255 hours.  And for some reason we were not -- we did not get

14     the English translation in e-court, but I have it, it's short.  And I'll

15     just, if that's okay, read it slow.  It's number 748.  It's 19 July, 2255

16     hours.  Yeah, it's that one in the middle.  Perhaps you could blow it up

17     one more time because it's a short one.  Thank you.

18        Q.   It says a conversation between Milovanovic, and a person, X, who

19     is inaudible.  Now, any idea who this Milovanovic might be in your view

20     and memory?

21        A.   Well, my immediate response is it's General Milovanovic, Chief of

22     Staff of the VRS Main Staff.

23        Q.   Okay.  And X is not audible, so again it's one of these where all

24     they have is Milovanovic, and it says, as we can read it:

25             "Yes, hello.  Yes, yes.  For himself, Radul has just called me."

Page 7018

 1             Any idea who Radul is?

 2        A.   I am not sure.

 3        Q.   "Listen, I will give it to AP, it will pay me 25, and I don't

 4     know what he will do."

 5             Then he says:

 6             "That's right, that's correct.  I don't know.  I am not

 7     interested in these Palvi.  Tomorrow at 0600 hours, I am heading out to

 8     the site."

 9             Then he goes on to say:

10             "Well, the boss told me to take nothing under 50.000 German marks

11     for tomorrow's work."

12             He goes on to say:

13             "It is all for 50 except for the one of this evening.

14             "All right.  Fifty is good.  Yes.  In the next three days until

15     the wounded civilians and soldiers come out and are in Zepa."

16             And then he goes on to say:

17             "The same cameraman, everything is the same."

18             Then he says:

19             "There is no other crew there.  The boss ordered General Tolimir

20     that only one camera can go in.  Call again.  Bye."

21             Have you seen this before?

22        A.   I actually have not seen this intercept before.

23        Q.   Do you have any opinion on what -- well, we can see the mention

24     of Zepa here.  Does that reference to Zepa have any -- is there any

25     information in that that you can connect to the case, the investigation

Page 7019

 1     at all, if we look at the date of 19 July?

 2        A.   Correct.  We know that the meeting at Boksanica happened on July

 3     19th, that General Tolimir and General Mladic and Zepa representatives

 4     were at.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to know

 7     whether this witness is being examined as an expert who provides an

 8     opinion about the events which were not presented here, either during the

 9     trial or in the examination-in-chief, or maybe the goal of this

10     examination is different.  The Prosecutor has just invited the witness to

11     share her opinion with us.  I don't mind the witness talking about Zepa,

12     but then I should also be given the right to take that matter further.

13     The issue of Zepa was mentioned neither in the examination-in-chief nor

14     in my cross-examination.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I agree with you, Mr. Tolimir, insofar as this

16     witness was not asked about Zepa.  This is true.

17             And, Mr. McCloskey, you should be careful with questioning the

18     witness about the situation on the ground.

19             I take it that you are -- want to show how the videos of

20     different situations and events have been obtained.  This is, indeed, a

21     correct course of questioning because you, personally, were asking,

22     Mr. Tolimir -- the witness about her knowledge how these videos were

23     produced and obtained by the OTP.  The chain of custody and the original

24     source are, as I understand it, the background of your questioning.

25             Mr. McCloskey.

Page 7020

 1             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, and that is correct, Mr. President.  And

 2     that's the principle reason I am putting this intercept up, as we can

 3     see, and you'll soon see from my last couple of questions.  There is

 4     also, in release to that, I think Judge Nyambe brought up the question of

 5     intercept authenticity of backing up this topic of films and camera

 6     crews.  And the witness's answer in that provided brief explanations of

 7     why she thought an intercept was authentic and reliable, and so because

 8     of that concern, I was asking her those questions to tie this intercept

 9     as relevant and authentic before I got to the main point, which we are

10     almost there.

11        Q.   At the bottom we see:

12             "There is no other crew there.  The boss ordered General Tolimir

13     that only one camera can go in."

14             Now, has there been any footage that we have had and used in this

15     case of video footage in the town of Zepa?

16        A.   Footage of inside the town of Zepa in July of 1995 --

17        Q.   Yes.

18        A.   -- other than -- well, excuse me, we do have footage of inside

19     the town of Zepa in July of 1995.

20        Q.   And do you recall if General Tolimir can be seen in that footage?

21        A.   Yes, he can.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Well, I think I can leave it at that,

23     Mr. President, in terms of that.  I would offer that intercept into

24     evidence.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, I -- the witness said she hasn't

Page 7021

 1     seen this intercept before.  She can't tell anything about the content

 2     and the authenticity of this intercept.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, it's my view that the key to the

 4     authenticity of the intercept, one of the keys is that the witness has

 5     testified that German marks are being sold for video.  This backs that

 6     up.  She is also able to establish that, yes, in fact, there was a camera

 7     crew in Zepa, and this is backed up by this intercept.  This idea that --

 8     or this, and this may not be the right place for this, but the idea that

 9     a witness has never seen something really, in my view, is -- is one

10     consideration you should have in determining whether something is

11     admissible but not the only.  If the witness's testimony on a point that

12     is being contradicted by something the opposing party brings out is

13     supported by a document, that document, in my view, should be something

14     the Court can see.  And that's as true for the Defence side as it is the

15     Prosecution side.  And so because we, you know, I don't think you want to

16     see another intercept operator.

17             So the substance of this backs up what she has been saying in

18     response to General Tolimir's question about where this material came

19     from and the Judge's question on is it authentic, because it shows that

20     there is a video -- that they are talking about a video crew in Zepa.  So

21     that is something I will hope you will consider in your authenticity --

22     or in your admissibility decision.  But, as I hope you will for the

23     Defence as well, because they have brought up documents sometimes that

24     have the same issue, and we will get together with them to determine if

25     there is any such things like that and so their documents can get in as

Page 7022

 1     well, but I think it's very important.  The substance of a document may

 2     be just as important to the witness's testimony, whether or not that

 3     witness has ever seen the document.

 4             I don't believe in just willy-nilly just bringing documents in.

 5     That is a frightening aspect, and I don't want to do that.  But I do

 6     want, especially since we've had concern about the number of -- she said

 7     there were a number of intercepts that helped deal with this issues.  And

 8     this is one of those.  And I have a Judge -- Judge Nyambe is concerned

 9     about authenticity of intercepts relating to video, and so that's another

10     reason why I bring this intercept in.  So that's -- I guess that's all I

11     have to say on it, Mr. President.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for this explanation and clarification

13     of your position.

14             Mr. Tolimir, do you want to comment?  What is your position?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the position of the

16     Defence on the intercepts is well known.  If this witness has not seen a

17     document and she only saw similar documents, you can't actually testify

18     about a person walking on two legs because you saw another person walking

19     on two legs.  I don't think it's acceptable for documents to be admitted

20     through this witness.  And we cannot bring Muslim officers here to talk

21     about documents drafted by them, so we cannot reciprocate.  If a document

22     may be admitted through a witness about Srebrenica, which were not

23     actually subject of her investigation and research, then you, please,

24     alert me to that fact and I will feel free to introduce documents of any

25     kind through this witness which were not previously on the subject of my

Page 7023

 1     cross-examination.  And I will have them admitted, or at least ask for

 2     their admission.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  We have now the position of

 4     the parties on the record.  The Chamber will postpone its decision

 5     thereon and we come back to that later.

 6             Mr. McCloskey, please continue.

 7             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That was the last intercept that I had.  So I

 8     also have before me, and it doesn't have a 65 ter number, but it was the

 9     subject of the General Tolimir's question, and that is the statement.

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We should.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  -- we can.  I --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But now we know to whom you are referring.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:  In fact, it's a very short statement, and if I

17     could very -- I'll slowly read the part that has to the with the part of

18     the questioning General Tolimir made, and we should probably go into

19     private session for that.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 7024











11 Page 7024 redacted. Private session.















Page 7025

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25                           [Open session]

Page 7026

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in public session, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We have to thank you for your attendance here,

 3     Ms. Gallagher.  You are free now to return to your normal work, no

 4     restrictions any longer.  Thank you very much.  And you are free now to

 5     leave the courtroom.  Thank you.

 6                           [The witness withdrew]

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, I believe Mr. Janc and Mr. Vanderpuye are

 9     ready to continue.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. President.  Before

12     we continue, could I please ask you -- or, rather, suggest that the

13     recording that was erroneously shown be marked for identification, and

14     then when he has another opportunity to show it maybe we can discuss that

15     recording as well.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You mean the last footage, video footage we have

17     just seen?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.  The last

19     footage we saw.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yeah, the last footage we saw was part of the

22     trial video, the famous gas station mortar crew.  And we can, I know,

23     find the other part relatively quickly to show it.  So at first chance,

24     we can do that for the General, and I think that's fair enough, since it

25     was a question that he brought up that I was trying to respond to and

Page 7027

 1     he's still interested.  So I know we can get that, it won't be long.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In that case, we should mark this -- in my

 3     understanding, that was part of the raw material of the video and some

 4     parts of that were taken into the trial video.  Is my understanding

 5     correct?

 6             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Actually, that is correct, Mr. President.  It --

 7     we can mark that separately.  As far as I could tell, everything that we

 8     saw was played on the trial video but we were playing it from a different

 9     tape, so we can -- we should give it another number.  Let me get some

10     help from Ms. -- I think the Registrar can give it the appropriate

11     number, that that would be more precise.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be marked for identification.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  The video clip, Your Honours, played with 65 ter

14     01382 will be assigned Exhibit P01301.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

16             Now we welcome Mr. Vanderpuye and the next witness shall be

17     brought in.

18                           [The witness takes the stand]

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

20             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Mr. President.  I believe

21     on page 45, line 1, the number was wrongly recorded because it appears

22     like this exhibit number is P101.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Just for the purposes of the record,

24     Your Honours, I will repeat the number.  The video clip played with

25     65 ter 01382 will be assigned P01301.

Page 7028

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Now we have it on the

 2     record.

 3             Welcome, Mr. Janc, back to the courtroom.  May I remind you that

 4     the information you made at the beginning of your testimony on the 15th

 5     of April this year, to tell the truth, still applies.

 6                           WITNESS:  DUSAN JANC [Resumed]

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If I recall correctly, Mr. Vanderpuye has

 8     concluded his direct examination on the 23rd of September, 2010, and now

 9     Mr. Tolimir is prepared to start with his cross-examination.

10             Mr. Tolimir.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

13        Q.   [Interpretation] I'll welcome Mr. Janc, and I have a couple of

14     questions about his earlier testimony.

15             First of all, when you described in examination-in-chief your

16     preparations for giving evidence, on page 5721, line 17 through 21, you

17     said, I quote:

18             "I familiarised myself with the information about the way the OTP

19     got hold of these videos and other material, and I also took into account

20     issues of authenticity in order to prepare for my testimony."

21             I hope I quoted you correctly.  Do you agree with this quotation?

22     Did I understand you correctly?

23        A.   Yes, that's correct.

24        Q.   Does that mean that when preparing for giving evidence you only

25     studied the documentation of the OTP, but you did not participate in any

Page 7029

 1     way in collecting the material and establishing its authenticity?

 2        A.   Yes, of course, I studied the documentation of the OTP and also

 3     trying to find facts regarding the -- establishing the authenticity,

 4     going through the OTP documents.  So those were, I would say, combined

 5     issues, so -- which I examined together.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  To be quite precise, did you personally conduct any

 7     interview with any person that delivered to the OTP any material that was

 8     introduced through you?

 9        A.   No, I did not.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Could you then give us your point of view about the

11     authenticity of the material and how this authenticity was determined by

12     the OTP?

13        A.   Yes.  The videos which we obtained from different sources, for

14     example, we interviewed these individuals, so that was done by my

15     colleagues, not personally by me.  And these individuals have told us how

16     did they obtain or how did they come across this material.  On the other

17     hand, some of the material, as you also know, was seized from the

18     premises of different individuals, mainly in Serbia, and examining the

19     documentation on the seizure itself, this was one source of getting

20     information of the -- on the authenticity of this material.

21             On the other hand, examining these videos, we have established

22     that -- that several other similar videos already exist in OTP's

23     possession which were obtained before from other different sources, for

24     example, and were also corroborated in these ways.

25             So then the third thing of authenticity was the content on the

Page 7030

 1     videos itself.  You can -- one can clearly establish going -- reviewing

 2     these videos that what is going on is in line with the ongoing

 3     investigation -- with the investigation which was done and in line with

 4     the documents and the different information which was obtained by the OTP

 5     throughout the years.  So there are different means how to authenticate

 6     these videos, and I was going through these steps in order to

 7     authenticate them.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know, based on studying this documentation,

 9     whether OTP staff used experts or studied in any other way some of the

10     material that was used here in the last round of your testimony?

11        A.   No, I am not aware that -- if any of these videos were ever

12     examined by any of the experts.  So I don't have this information, so I

13     would say they were not examined by any of the experts.  But no, they

14     were not.  I don't have any such reports, so they were not.

15        Q.   Since part of the material was obtained by buying it for very

16     large amounts, you mentioned 200.000 Euros, was such material checked for

17     possible editing?  Because these things are impossible to identify when

18     you study the cuts in the movie.  Was this material given to any experts

19     to investigate?

20        A.   First, I have to correct you here, because I haven't testified

21     that the OTP bought this video for 200.000 Euros.  In information --

22     actually, a declaration by the OTP investigator, Tore Soldal.  It's

23     clearly written that that was the amount requested by the provider of

24     this video initially, and OTP refused to pay for this video.  And later

25     on, this individual gave up and provided the OTP this video free of

Page 7031

 1     charge.  So the OTP hasn't paid any money for this video.  Of course, the

 2     authenticity was an issue for the OTP all the time regarding this video,

 3     and that's why a lot of interviews, first of all, have been conducted

 4     with different individuals, and they have basically confirmed the

 5     authenticity for the OTP.

 6             On the other hand, as you have seen here, represented on the

 7     several images and also presentation of the crime scene itself, and

 8     through that, the OTP independently confirmed that what can be seen on

 9     the video is, indeed, taking place at that spot.  So, regarding the

10     editing, yes, we can see on this video several edits and the OTP hasn't

11     approached any expert to look closely on these additions.

12        Q.   Thank you.  That's precisely what I wanted to know, and I am

13     satisfied with your answer.  I stand corrected that Tore Soldal said that

14     this money was never paid, that some money was turned over for that

15     person to move to a different territory later.

16             Anyway, on this film with several interruptions, you said

17     expertise was never required, but did you wonder at these interruptions

18     in the film because it is mentioned both in the film itself and in the

19     statement that this filming was commissioned?

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And good morning to

22     you and Your Honours and everyone.

23             I apologise for the interruption, but it seems to me that the

24     question is not clear as to which film we are talking about.  I think

25     what we are talking about is Skorpions video.  But there were, I think,

Page 7032

 1     seven videos that were introduced through Mr. Janc or clips of videos

 2     through Mr. Janc.  So if General Tolimir could be more specific in the

 3     question, I think it would be helpful, at least in terms of clarifying

 4     the record, as we go along.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 6             Mr. Tolimir, can you indicate which video you are talking about.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, and thank

 8     you, Mr. Vanderpuye.  I was talking about what you mentioned -- in fact,

 9     what the witness mentioned, and he talked about the killings in Trnovo,

10     and it's good for the record to say whether there was any editing and

11     interruptions on this film.  And if the witness could enlighten us about

12     that, considering that no expertise was ever done.

13             THE WITNESS:  Yes, as I already said, there are interruptions on

14     this video.  You can see them, and the OTP considered them and, of

15     course, we tried to find out if there is any -- if there are any

16     additional footages of these same incidents somewhere else.  And that's

17     why we interviewed several individuals, and they all confirmed that

18     that's the entire video as it was filmed at the time.  And since it was

19     confirmed through several witnesses, we considered it as authentic.

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you for that answer.  My question was:  Is

22     there any additional material or footage that corroborate the

23     authenticity of that film from Trnovo?

24        A.   The OTP is not aware or is not in possession of any other footage

25     which would corroborate this video.  In relation to additional material,

Page 7033

 1     I would -- I would say the statements of the participants, several of

 2     them which were obtained by the OTP through interviews or through

 3     requests to the authorities of the Republic of Serbia, this is the

 4     additional material we have on this incident.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Since we have already started on the subject of the

 6     killings in Trnovo, let's stay on it for a while.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see P1004, page 5 in

 8     e-court.  It concerns the area of responsibility of the Drina Corps.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   And this was introduced into evidence through you and your

11     testimony.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

13             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Just a small correction, P104.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Thank you.  We see this map admitted in the last round of your

17     testimony.  Can you tell us whether these executions in Trnovo took place

18     in the area of the Drina Corps or in the area of the

19     Sarajevo Romanija Corps at its -- on its western boundary, as we see on

20     this map where Trnovo is marked.

21        A.   These killings took place in Trnovo, which you can see here on

22     the map, which is south of Sarajevo, a few kilometres south of Sarajevo,

23     and this is area of Sarajevo Romanija Corps.

24        Q.   [No interpretation]

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, your microphone is off.

Page 7034

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise to everyone.

 2             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   In your evidence in chief, on page 5802, line 21, you estimated

 4     that Trnovo is some 200 kilometres away from Srebrenica.  Based on that

 5     distance and based on this map, isn't it clear that Trnovo is outside the

 6     area of responsibility of the Drina Corps?

 7        A.   I agree with you.  This area is outside the Drina Corps area of

 8     responsibility.  It is inside the Sarajevo Romanija Corps AOR, area of

 9     responsibility.

10        Q.   Thank you.  We are still talking about information concerning the

11     executions of these six persons in Trnovo.  I won't mention their names.

12     Did you personally investigate how they ended up in Trnovo, which is 200

13     kilometres away from Srebrenica?

14        A.   Not me personally, but several steps towards this -- this,

15     regarding this issue have been done by the other members of the OTP

16     investigators, my colleagues.  And there is a statement of one of the

17     individuals who was interviewed who says that these individuals, not only

18     this also, but some other individuals, were brought from the area of

19     Srebrenica, after the fall of Srebrenica, by buses and trucks to Trnovo

20     area.  These buses and trucks were going up and down several times and

21     were bringing the -- the men from Srebrenica down to this area, and these

22     six individuals, those were the last group of those transported down from

23     Srebrenica and were subsequently killed there.

24             Apart from that, I also examined the records on these individuals

25     which we have -- which the OTP has in the possession.  So -- and

Page 7035

 1     initially, the ICMP missing list and ICRC missing list, they both tell me

 2     that these six individuals are reported or have been reported as missing

 3     after the fall of Srebrenica.  In addition, as I also testified here, we

 4     obtained four statements from the relatives of four of those individuals,

 5     and they all confirmed to the OTP that those were the individuals who

 6     left Srebrenica after its fall.  And one of them, who we interviewed, was

 7     brother of one who we see killed, and they left Potocari -- sorry,

 8     Srebrenica, together through the woods towards Kladanj, and at one point

 9     they just miss each other -- missed each other in the woods, and he has

10     never seen him again.  So these were the steps I have taken in order to

11     corroborate, these are indeed Srebrenica-related victims.

12        Q.   Thank you.  This is something new, at least for me.  You're

13     saying the buses and lorries transported people from Srebrenica to

14     Trnovo; am I right?  Did you say that?

15        A.   Yes.  And this is according to --

16        Q.   Thank you.

17        A.   -- one of the --

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please complete your answer.

20             THE WITNESS:  Yes, and this is according to one of the

21     individuals the OTP interviewed.  I know his name, but I'm not sure if I

22     can state that in public session, but I'm willing to provide you with the

23     name of this individual.

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Thank you.  I am not interested in the name.  I am interested in

Page 7036

 1     the number of people.  And if those people were transported by buses and

 2     lorries, where are these people?  Were their remains found in the

 3     locations around Trnovo, and if they were found around Trnovo, were they

 4     then returned to the places where their graves were found?

 5        A.   You're right, and this was also my concern when I read this

 6     statement, and still is my concern when I read this statement.  And --

 7     because he says that the trips -- there were several trips with lorries

 8     and buses -- or lorries and truck and -- sorry, trucks and buses and

 9     buses or trucks to this area, and this was one of the last groups which

10     was taken down there.  And this is, indeed, the only group of

11     individuals, I would say Srebrenica-related individuals which were so far

12     found and identified in this area.

13             So we don't have any additional graves, additional bodies found

14     in this area which are related to Srebrenica events.  And as you know,

15     the exhumations are still ongoing process in Bosnia, and not all of the

16     individuals who were already found and identified, and I don't exclude

17     the possibility that in the future there might be additional individuals

18     found in this area buried or on the surface or somewhere, which will be

19     confirmed that they are the individuals which this person was talking us

20     about.  So there is a possibility that there is few more of them there,

21     but, so far, we have only these six individuals identified and found.

22        Q.   Thank you.  I am not going to disclose the person's name in open

23     session, but let me ask you:  Has he been asked to testify before this

24     Tribunal?

25        A.   I am almost sure he is not on a witness list in this case, but if

Page 7037

 1     he was ever called to testify in any other cases, I would need to check

 2     that information.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And since we are talking about just one witness who

 4     allegedly saw buses going backwards and forwards, I suppose they must

 5     have been transporting a lot of people, was the authenticity of his

 6     statement checked in any way?  Thank you.

 7        A.   The OTP tried to obtain -- to obtain more corroborating

 8     statements in relation to the same issue; mainly, how and how many

 9     individuals were brought from Srebrenica area to this area, if at all

10     any.  But we have confirmation already that some of them, these six

11     individuals, were brought down there.  And unfortunately the only

12     individual who told us about how they were brought down there was this

13     person who I am talking about.  We all, of course, asked all individuals

14     which we interviewed in relation to this same issue these same questions,

15     but they simply haven't told us any significant information.  They

16     haven't knew -- they haven't known this information or they simply said

17     they cannot remember it.

18        Q.   Thank you.  In your previous answer, you said that you assumed

19     that those who were transported from Srebrenica to Trnovo would

20     eventually be discovered.  Where do you expect to find their remains?  Do

21     you think that they will be found in Trnovo or in Srebrenica?

22        A.   It's difficult to say.  This would be speculation, because they

23     can be brought down there, and at some point in time, for unknown reason

24     to us, brought back to Srebrenica.  So they can be found on either place

25     throughout the Bosnia, I would say, because it's not easy to say just,

Page 7038

 1     based on the fact -- on the information we are aware of now where those

 2     individuals would be buried if they were killed, of course.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell us whether the buses and

 4     lorries that the witness testified about, the one who allegedly saw those

 5     buses, did they also carry the six persons who were executed in -- at the

 6     location in Trnovo?

 7        A.   Yes.  These were part of the -- of the group which was

 8     transported down from Srebrenica area to Trnovo, and this was the last

 9     group of people transported to this area.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that national courts have tried those who

11     are considered responsible for the killings in Trnovo?

12        A.   If you can be a little bit more clear.  I don't know now the

13     national courts -- at what time, actually?

14        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that national courts in the territory of

15     the former Yugoslavia have tried those individuals who had admitted

16     responsibility for the killing of the six persons in Trnovo that you are

17     talking about?  They have admitted their guilt and they were charged and

18     tried.

19        A.   Yes, correct.  Now I know what you are talking about.  Yes, they

20     were arrested and tried and convicted in the Republic of Serbia in

21     Belgrade, and they were arrested in 2005.

22        Q.   I didn't understand you properly when you say that they were

23     arrested, and then the rest of the sentence I didn't understand because

24     the interpretation was poor.

25        A.   I can repeat.  These individuals who committed this crime were

Page 7039

 1     arrested in Serbia, I mean the Republic of Serbia in 2005, and then they

 2     were put on a trial, and they were convicted, yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell the Trial Chamber whether this

 4     Tribunal has received documents from the trials of those persons who were

 5     held responsible for the crimes in Trnovo?

 6        A.   Yes.  This Tribunal, actually, the OTP is in possession, I would

 7     say, of all the -- or most, I would say, most of the documentation which

 8     is related to the prosecution of these individuals, from their initial

 9     statements to the prosecutor, their trial testimonies, the trial itself,

10     and the judgements.  The OTP is in possession of this documentation, yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Did you study that documentation before you came here

12     to testify?  Thank you.

13        A.   I studied this documentation already before I came to testify,

14     and I also prepared and read some of the material in preparation for this

15     trial, but I have to admit that I haven't read everything.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Did you at least read the statements of the

17     participants in the killings of those six people in Trnovo that you're

18     testifying about?

19        A.   Yes, I think I am sure I read these statements, yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Since you're sure that you read the statements, do

21     you remember any of the statements describing the place where those

22     bodies were found, where that place is, and how far it is from

23     Srebrenica?  Do you remember any of that from those statements?

24        A.   Not from the top of my head, but if you show me, probably I will

25     remember that.

Page 7040

 1        Q.   Thank you.  I don't have the right to testify, but let me ask you

 2     this:  The person who arrested them, you say that they had gone to

 3     attempt the breakthrough, according to their families, that's what you

 4     told us.  You said that their families knew that they joined the column

 5     that we went in the direction of Susnjari and further on, and then you

 6     said that they were brought in, and the witnesses, whom we heard here at

 7     this trial, told us how they had come in contact with them.

 8             Do you know anything about the link between the Skorpions and

 9     those who were killed in Trnovo?  How did the Skorpions get in contact

10     with them?

11        A.   The clear answer to this is unfortunately not known to the OTP,

12     as yet.  So the only information and what kind of information the OTP has

13     on this issue is what I testified about, how these individuals were most

14     probably brought from Srebrenica area to the Trnovo, but how they were

15     arrested or captured, when, on the way through the woods, that

16     information is not known to the OTP.

17        Q.   Thank you.  The Trial Chamber that tried those persons in

18     Belgrade, did they know at what point, at what location did they come in

19     contact with the persons who were killed in Trnovo?  Is it perhaps known

20     from the documentation?  Thank you.

21        A.   I don't have that recollection of that.

22        Q.   Well, since you don't remember, I will not belabour the matter,

23     but I thought that you studied everything thoroughly.  But let me ask you

24     something, this:  On transcript, page 5085 [as interpreted], lines 25,

25     through page 5086 [as interpreted], line 3, you spoke about the Skorpion

Page 7041

 1     deployment, and you said the following:

 2             "They were deployed --" or, rather, "there was an order of the

 3     10th of July, 1995, signed by the then deputy minister of the interior,

 4     Tomo Kovac, for these units to be deployed in Srebrenica in order to

 5     assist in the operation that was going on in the Srebrenica enclave."

 6             Do you remember that you stated this and that a document was

 7     admitted through you on that occasion and that document is number P1025.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the Court please produce

 9     P1025.  Let's see if the witness remembers what he's stated about the

10     Skorpions and why they are being included in the indictment.  Thank you.

11             THE WITNESS:  Yes, I can confirm.  I do remember saying that, but

12     the document we can see on the screen right now is not the one I have

13     been referring to.  That must be a different one.  And if I may so, when

14     we are on this document which is on the screen, I have -- I was given a

15     task to check how the OTP obtained this document, and I needed to check

16     that and found out that this was seized in June/July 2003 by the OTP team

17     who has made a visit to the public security centre, at that time

18     Srpsko Sarajevo at Pale, and searched their archive and that's where this

19     document was obtained.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  There are two things.

22             First it -- I think it's at page 58, lines 8 through 9, there is

23     a reference to the witness's prior testimony.  And the transcript records

24     that reference incorrectly as 5085 and 5086.  It's actually 5805 through

25     5806.

Page 7042

 1             And the second relates to the scope of the question that

 2     General Tolimir has just put to the witness concerning the reasons why

 3     the Skorpions are part of the indictment, which I think is objectionable

 4     because it's outside of the ken of witness's knowledge.  He can certainly

 5     testify as to circumstances of fact that support the allegations that are

 6     contained in the indictment, but as for the reasons that it's charged, I

 7     think that goes beyond the scope of his direct examination and, in fact,

 8     really the purpose of his testimony altogether.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  The problem is that your

10     correction related to the page numbers is again not recorded.  Please

11     repeat that to have it clear on the record.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  The correction to the

13     question should be that the reference 5085 through 5086 of the witness's

14     prior testimony in the transcript should be pages 5805 through page 5806.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  And in relation to your

16     concern about the question and the reasons for including it into the

17     indictment, I would agree with your position but the witness has given

18     his answer in the way he can give it.

19             Please continue, Mr. Tolimir.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Let's

21     ask the witness exactly what he spoke about and what he said.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   The witness said that Tomo Kovac had issued an order on deploying

24     Skorpions to Srebrenica; is that correct?  Thank you.

25        A.   Yes, that's correct.  Yes.

Page 7043

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Can the Court please produce 1D289.

 2     Thank you.  Can I see 1D289.  Thank you.  I apologise.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think there is a problem with the number again.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  If we have a problem,

 5     the document is here, maybe we can show it on the ELMO.  In the meantime

 6     while the e-court is busy finding the document, maybe after the break we

 7     can solve this problem.

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Could you please tell us, did you see this document and did you

10     base your statement on that document --

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The document is not on e-court, as I'm told.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   -- when you mentioned Tomo Kovac?

14        A.   Yes, if you are talking now about this document from 10th of

15     July, 1995, the Tomo Kovac document, that's the document I have seen and

16     I have been referring to, yes.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I said the document is not in e-court.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.  Yes, yes, I am

19     talking about that.  Thank you.  I am talking about this document.  And

20     after the break, we will display it since we have it here.  If its not in

21     e-court, we will display it on the ELMO.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think it's a good proposal.  We should have the

23     second break now and the problem with the document will be resolved

24     during the break.  We will resume five minutes before 1.00.

25                           --- Recess taken at 12.27 p.m.

Page 7044

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3                           --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Tolimir.  Please go ahead.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   You said that a document dated 10 July was admitted through you.

 8     Is it the document we see on the screen now?

 9        A.   Yes, this is the document.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Was it admitted because of this item 2:

11             "The unit shall consist of the 2nd Special Police Detachment from

12     Sekovici, the 1st Company of the PJP Zvornik SJB, a mixed company of

13     joint RSK, Serbian and RS MUP forces, and a company from the training

14     camp on Jahorina"?

15        A.   Correct.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, could you give us the number of the

17     document?  We need it on the record.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, 1D289.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  I was asking because before

20     the break we were not sure if that is the correct number, now it's clear.

21             Please carry on.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  That's correct and the

23     witness confirmed it was admitted through him.

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   We've just read paragraph 2.  Is there any reference to the

Page 7045

 1     Skorpions there?

 2        A.   Not directly to Skorpions, but to Serbian MUP.  This is minister

 3     of interior of the Republic of Serbia, and part of which the Skorpion

 4     unit was, and that can be established through a document from 1st of July

 5     we've seen on our screen before.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Before we go back to that document, was this document

 7     dated 10 July sent by the Minister of Interior Kovac?

 8        A.   It is his type-signed signature down there, but we can see it was

 9     not signed by him because we have a word "for" if front of the signature,

10     and this is not his signature, and I know that from the fact that I read

11     Kovac, his statement, and he was quite clear that this was not his

12     signature that it was signature of duty operations officer or something

13     like that, the Ministry of Interior office in Sarajevo at that time, and

14     it was signed for him by this individual.

15        Q.   On the basis of this document, which is said to have been signed

16     by someone else on behalf of Tomo Kovac and sent to these addresses as an

17     order, is there a single word to the effect that the Skorpions are being

18     sent to Srebrenica?

19        A.   There is no single word about the Skorpions -- Skorpion unit

20     itself, but Skorpions were part of the Serbian MUP which was at the

21     Trnovo battle-field at the time, or Sarajevo front, which is written

22     here.

23        Q.   We'll now see that other document which was on the screen before

24     this, which you say is the basis for your assertion that the Skorpions

25     were part of the MUP of Serbia?

Page 7046

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, I tender this

 2     document, and then I would like to see in e-court the document that the

 3     witness asked for.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The document will be received.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  The document, Your Honours, under document ID

 6     1D00289 will be assigned Exhibit D00129.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could the witness now

 8     be shown the document he asked for, and that's P1025.  Thank you.  We see

 9     the document that the witness asked for.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Tell us, on the basis of what do you claim that the Skorpions

12     were in Srebrenica?

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  First, I think the

15     question misstates fundamentally the witness's testimony, both on direct

16     and cross-examination.

17             And second of all, I think we can clarify this issue as a matter

18     of position of the Prosecution, which is that the presence of the

19     Skorpions in Srebrenica is not established by this document, nor is it

20     established by the 10 July document.  And we are not claiming that that

21     as a matter of fact as yet in this case, and so I don't see that there is

22     any basis for the question.  But aside from the position of the

23     Prosecution, I think it's readily apparent from the documents that

24     General Tolimir is using that that is not an assertion that arises from

25     it.

Page 7047

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  If what the Prosecutor

 2     says is correct, then I do not need to ask anymore questions on this

 3     document.  I called it up in e-court because the witness wanted it.

 4     Thank you.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Perhaps the witness can answer the question:  On

 6     the basis of what do you claim that the Skorpions were in Srebrenica?

 7     That was the question of Mr. Tolimir, I think, if you are able to answer

 8     this question.

 9             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour, and I will clarify a little bit.

10     Based on the document we have seen before, or based on that order, the

11     Skorpion unit was ordered to go to Srebrenica.  And it doesn't really

12     mean that they went there, so they were just ordered to go there.  And so

13     far the Prosecution, I think, does not have any evidence that they were,

14     indeed, in that area.  And why we -- we -- why I say that Skorpions were

15     referred as MUP Serbia is because of the paragraph 1 of this document,

16     which we have in front of us from 1st of July, 1995.

17             What it says, the second sentence, it starts:  The combat group

18     included certain platoons, and we have two platoons from the Kaman

19     detachment, Plavi, and Skorpion, and then we have in brackets (Serbian

20     MUP).

21             And that's why these two documents are related, and that's why I

22     claim that Skorpion unit was part of the Serbian MUP.  Not only based on

23     documents -- not only based on these documents, also based on the

24     statement of the witnesses which we interviewed, and they all confirmed

25     that they were part of the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of

Page 7048

 1     Serbia at that time.

 2             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us whether this reference in the

 4     brackets, Serbian MUP, behind Skorpions, could be a mistake?  Maybe what

 5     was meant was the MUP was Republika Srpska.  Sorry, the Republic of

 6     Serbian Krajina.

 7             I'll ask my question can again:  The author of this document, did

 8     he perhaps mean the MUP of Serbian Krajina but failed to write that

 9     exactly?

10        A.   I don't think so, the writer of this report, Ljubisa Borovcanin,

11     I think was quite right here because at that time the Skorpion unit was

12     representing the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Serbia at

13     that time.  And we can see -- we have seen from the order from 10th of

14     July that there is distinction between those two units, MUP of the

15     Republic of Srpska Krajina and MUP of the Republic of Serbia.  So these

16     are two units.  And I am sure that Ljubisa Borovcanin was referring to

17     the Skorpions in this document as a member of the Serbian MUP.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see in e-court 1D129,

20     which just got an exhibit number.  D129.  Thank you.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Let us look again at paragraph 2 that we read a moment ago:

23             "The unit shall consist of the 2nd Special Police Detachment from

24     Sekovici, the 1st Company of the Special Police Unit from the Zvornik

25     public security station, a mixed company of the joint Republic of Serbian

Page 7049

 1     Krajina, Serbian and RS MUP forces, and a company from the training camp

 2     on Jahorina."

 3             Now, based on what I've read, my question is:  Is it clear from

 4     Tomo Kovac's order that the MUP of the Republic of Serbian Krajina is

 5     separated from the MUP of Republika Srpska and the MUP of Serbia and

 6     that's why they are called joint forces?

 7        A.   Yes, correct.  That's clear from this document, yes.

 8        Q.   Does that mean, then, that the forces of the so-called Skorpions

 9     belonged to the MUP of the Serbian Krajina, not the MUP of Serbia?

10        A.   Yes, I understand your concern, now, because -- I mean, previous

11     document we don't have reference to the Republic of Serbian Krajina MUP

12     but only to Serbian MUP, and one can conclude that under Serbian MUP in

13     the document from 1st of July, they covered everything, both from the RSK

14     to the Serbian MUP.  But still, regardless of that fact, based on the

15     statements from different individuals which we interviewed, it was made

16     quite clear from their side that Skorpions, at that time, were there

17     under the umbrella of the MUP of the Republic of Serbia.  So that's why I

18     am testifying here today that Skorpion unit at that time was under the

19     responsibility of the Republic of Serbia MUP.

20        Q.   Thank you.  A moment ago you said, "one could conclude."  Are you

21     assuming or inferring or concluding?

22        A.   I am concluding that that's the fact based on all documents, if

23     you complete -- if you put all the information we have on this unit

24     together, I can conclude that they were under the MUP of the Republic of

25     Serbia.

Page 7050

 1        Q.   In this communication that we see, in paragraph 2, signed by

 2     somebody on behalf of Tomo Kovac, does it say, "A mixed company of the

 3     joint RSK MUP," and that means the MUP of the Republic of Serbian

 4     Krajina?

 5        A.   Yes, the document speaks for itself, and a joint unit at that

 6     time would be -- would consist of all those three MUP forces.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  You said it included the forces of all the three

 8     MUPs, but here it says clearly a mixed company, specifying exactly how

 9     many units:

10             "A mixed company of the joint RSK," separated by a comma,

11     "Serbian and RS MUP forces and a company from the training camp on

12     Jahorina."

13             Does that mean that in these joint forces of the MUP of the

14     Republic of Serbian Krajina there could have been Skorpions as well?

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I think the witness

17     has already answered the question.  The document, in fact, does speak for

18     itself.  What the General is proposing is a rather strained

19     interpretation of what the document plainly reads, which is that:

20             "A mixed company of joint RSK Serbian and RS MUP forces and a

21     company from the training camp at Jahorina."

22             It does not refer to a mixed force within the RSK forces, as the

23     General is suggesting.  It refers to a mixed force comprising those three

24     elements and an element from a training camp at Jahorina.  It's plain on

25     its face, and I don't see that we are making a point or making any

Page 7051

 1     headway with repeated references to a rather contrived interpretation of

 2     the document.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think everybody can read the document, indeed.

 4     And now you provided Mr. Tolimir with an answer to the question put to

 5     the witness.  But, indeed, we have received an answer by the witness

 6     about his understanding of this document.

 7             Do you want to add something, Mr. Tolimir?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   If a mixed company is really joint, like the Prosecutor says,

11     including a unit from the Republic of Serbian Krajina, would it then be

12     logical that the Skorpions would be subordinate to the Republic of

13     Serbian Krajina force because it is from another state, another country?

14        A.   I can just repeat again that based on information the OTP has, is

15     that the Skorpion unit was under the umbrella of the MUP of the Republic

16     of Serbia.  So we have no indication, no information, that they were, at

17     that time, under the Republic of Serbian Krajina MUP.  So that's why I

18     concluded and stated that they were under their authority.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Do you recall that in your prior evidence you said

20     that these Skorpions hailed from Vukovar, which is the Republic of

21     Croatia, at the time it was the Republic of Serbian Krajina; yes or no?

22        A.   Yes, I do remember testifying about that, and I still stand by my

23     testimony.

24        Q.   Thank you.  If that's the Republic of Serbian Krajina, is it then

25     logical that part of the units of the RSK would be subordinated to the

Page 7052

 1     MUP of Serbia rather than to their own MUP of the RSK, as Tomo Kovac

 2     writes here?

 3        A.   Logical or not, in wartime a lot of things are possible, and

 4     according to information and what I testified about is that at that time

 5     Skorpion unit was sent to Trnovo battle-field by the MUP of the Republic

 6     of Serbia.  At previous occasions, they were in Bosnia.  When they were

 7     deployed in Bosnia, they were under the Republic of Serbian Krajina at

 8     that time, but during the Trnovo battle-field operation, they were under

 9     the MUP of the Republic of Serbia.

10        Q.   I'm sorry, but that's what you were saying.  Now, tell me what's

11     the name of that unit of that Republic of Serbian Krajina MUP which was

12     part of this joint force?  Did you find out which unit was that and who

13     was its commander because Tomo Kovac is, by virtue of this order, sending

14     that unit to Trnovo?

15        A.   I don't have recollection about it right now, but I think that I

16     came across information, who would those be, but I cannot be -- I cannot

17     give you an exact answer right now.  I think I would need to check --

18     re-check Tomo Kovac's statement again to see what he told us about these

19     units.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Just with respect to

22     the last question, there is a reference at page 69, line 17 -- 16 and 17

23     where General Tolimir talks about Tomo Kovac, and by virtue of that

24     order, he says sending that unit to Trnovo.  In fact, the document

25     suggests that the unit, at least according to General Tolimir's position

Page 7053

 1     so far, was sent to Srebrenica.  This is the 10 July 1995 document, so

 2     the witness's answer -- so either the question should be put back to the

 3     witness or the witness's answer should be interpreted in that context.  I

 4     believe it was just a misstatement rather than anything else.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   If a unit outside of the MUP is coming to join the MUP, is it

 9     then logical that the minister of the interior, as was the case here,

10     should send it.  And we read here:

11             "Part of the forces involved in the Sarajevo theater of war,"

12     that includes Trnovo, "is sent as an independent unit to the area of

13     Srebrenica in the course of the following day, 11 of July."

14             Does that mean that they were in the area of Trnovo and from

15     Trnovo they were being transferred to Srebrenica?

16        A.   Yes, they were in the area of Trnovo at that time, indeed.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since there seems to be a dilemma

18     here over what exactly is the MUP of the Republic of Serbian Krajina and

19     whether this unit was in Sarajevo and in Trnovo, I'd like to see document

20     1D288.  We now see the document without translation.  Can we see first

21     the last page to see who sent it.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Does it say Ljubisa Borovcanin here, at the bottom of the

24     document, page 4?

25        A.   Yes, correct, and I can confirm this is his report.

Page 7054

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] Would the electronic courtroom

 3     display again page 1.  Thank you.

 4        Q.   Before we move on to the questions, can you tell if you had

 5     occasion to see this document before and if you have studied?

 6        A.   I can confirm I have seen this document before.

 7        Q.   I will now read out for the record the first page and tell you

 8     what it's about.  This is a report by Mr. Borovcanin covering all the

 9     days of the Srebrenica operation, beginning with the 12th of July when he

10     was sent there through the 20th July, which we can see on page 4.  I will

11     read the beginning:

12             "Pursuant to an order by the deputy minister of the interior,

13     number 64/95, dated 10 July, 1995, I have been assigned to participate

14     together with part of the MUP forces in the Operation Srebrenica 95,

15     which has been under way for five days now.

16             "The said order specifies that the combat group of the MUP in

17     this sector shall consist of the 2nd Special Police Detachment from

18     Sekovici, the 1st Company of the PJP Zvornik, two companies of the joint

19     forces of the MUP of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, and a company of

20     the MUP from the centre for training on Jahorina.

21             "The establishment of the combat group is scheduled for 11th July

22     by 1200 hours.  Out of the said forces, the 2nd Special Police Detachment

23     of Sekovici was involved in combat operations in Srenje [phoen] at the

24     moment when the order was issued.  The 1st PJP Zvornik Company had not

25     assembled," so it wasn't even assembled yet, "both companies of the MUP

Page 7055

 1     of the RSK were engaged in combat in Trnovo, while the company from the

 2     training centre was at its base on Jahorina."

 3             And Borovcanin adds:

 4             "I received this order at the forward command post in Trnovo

 5     where I was commanding the joint forces of the MUP."

 6             And my question is:  Is there any reference to the MUP of Serbia

 7     in this order -- in this report?

 8        A.   No, I don't see it right now.  And I think there is no reference

 9     to it.

10        Q.   Is there a reference to the MUP of Serbia on the 1st page?  I am

11     asking you this since you've told us that you studied the document.  You

12     speak Serbian, you read Serbian, you said it so yourself in the previous

13     trials, you said that you use Serbian?

14        A.   Yes, I can confirm there is no reference to MUP Serbia.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown the

17     second page, the third page, and finally the fourth page of the document.

18     Thank you.  Thank you.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Is there a reference anywhere to the MUP of Serbia on the second

21     page of Borovcanin's report?  Thank you.

22        A.   No, I don't see any.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now could the third page of the

24     same report be shown to the witness in e-court.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It is already on the screen.

Page 7056

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise, thank you,

 2     Mr. President.  Can the witness be shown the fourth page then, thank you.

 3             THE WITNESS:  I don't see any reference to it.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Since there are no references to the MUP of Serbia in

 6     the report of the commander who was in charge of those forces, what made

 7     you conclude that the MUP was Serbia participated in the action in

 8     Trnovo?

 9        A.   That MUP Serbia participated in action in Trnovo, we can see from

10     two documents, at least we have been going over today.  From 1st of July,

11     you can see that they are in the area of Trnovo and the document from 10

12     of July where order of Tomo Kovac is withdrawing this unit from the area

13     of Trnovo, so based on these two documents we can conclude that these

14     unit was in that battle-field.

15        Q.   Since you have studied this document, and in chronological terms

16     it describes the events that took place on the 10th and then on the 11th,

17     and then in the penultimate passage it describes the events on the 12th

18     of July, 1995.  And then the penultimate passage on the 3rd page

19     describes the events on the 13th of July.  And finally, the events on the

20     16th, the 15th, and the 14th July, and then on the 17th, 18th, 19th, and

21     20th of July on the 5th page of the document.

22             My question is this:  You speak the language, you studied the

23     document, does Commander Borovcanin refer anywhere in the document to the

24     presence of Skorpions?  Thank you.

25        A.   I think not, but in order to be 100 per cent sure, I would need

Page 7057

 1     to review this document more carefully just to find if there is any

 2     Skorpion reference, and I think that we have this document in English, so

 3     I am sure the OTP is having it in English.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, we do have this document in

 6     English.  It appears that it's not been uploaded in the e-court and we

 7     are in the process of uploading it into e-court, because as Mr. Gajic

 8     knows and General Tolimir knows, this is an important document, a central

 9     document in this case.  It is 65 ter 5869.  It involves

10     Ljubisa Borovcanin, who you know was charged - and convicted, I should

11     say - in the Popovic case in relation to his involvement in the events

12     concerning Srebrenica.  This document, as I understand it, is from

13     September or thereabout of 1995.  And it effectively recounts the

14     involvement of Mr. Borovcanin and his unit in these events, so you can

15     see that it post-dates the order that was actually issued that is now

16     before the Trial Chamber.

17             But we are endeavouring to get the English document uploaded in

18     the e-court for your benefit, because I think it will resolve many of the

19     issues that the accused has raised throughout this cross-examination.

20     And I would add to the extent that it may be -- it may be of benefit to

21     the Trial Chamber, I certainly can redirect Mr. Janc in this area and

22     with this document in order to clarify these issues.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

24             Mr. Tolimir.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye, for

Page 7058

 1     helping us to use the English version of the document.

 2             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   And since there is an English version, and you said it yourself

 4     as a witness, was it used in any other trial before this Tribunal?  Was

 5     this document considered or was the issue and the problem Skorpions ever

 6     considered in any of the other trials before this Tribunal?  Thank you.

 7        A.   I am quite certain that it was an issue at the Popovic et al

 8     trial, but I cannot say anything about the other trials.

 9        Q.   Did you study the entire documentation related to the issue of

10     Skorpions in the case of the persons who were on trial before this

11     Tribunal in the case known as Popovic et al?

12        A.   I am sure I studied a lot of documentation in relation to

13     Skorpion -- Skorpions unit, but you never be sure if you reviewed and

14     studied everything, because every day you can find something new.  So --

15     and I would say most of the documentation I am sure aware of.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

17             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I understand that

18     this document that we have in front of us in e-court now apparently had

19     had two 65 ter numbers.  And the English version can be found under

20     65 ter number 87, and that might be appropriate to pull it up now so that

21     we can all see what it says.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  I hope that can be found.

23             Mr. Tolimir.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I would

25     like to thank Mr. Vanderpuye, as well.

Page 7059

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   And now, can you tell us, please, did you study the documents

 3     presented by the Borovcanin Defence?  And we know that Borovcanin was in

 4     charge of the Skorpion units in Trnovo.

 5        A.   Yes, I am sure aware of most of documentation which was presented

 6     during the trial, so I can confirm that.  Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell us and the Trial Chamber whether any

 8     of the things that were committed by the Skorpions were something that

 9     those who were accused of the crimes in Srebrenica were charged with?

10     Thank you.

11        A.   I think the Trnovo killings, this video, this killing of six

12     Muslim men, this is the only one which -- which was committed by the

13     Skorpions where the OTP indicted individuals in relation to that unit.

14        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  I asked you this:  Since you studied the

15     documentation that was provided by the Defence teams of the accused in

16     the Srebrenica case, are there documents relative to Skorpions in the

17     evidence of the individuals charged with the crimes in Srebrenica?

18        A.   I don't really know what -- what do you have in mind, so if you

19     could be more precise I can say, yes, which documents you are referring

20     to, but I think that I responded to you in general terms, yes.

21        Q.   Thank you.  I asked whether there were any references made to the

22     Skorpions in the Srebrenica trials.  You studied the documents and you

23     said that there were such documents.  I am asking you whether any of the

24     accused in those cases were charged with the murders comitted by

25     Skorpions in Trnovo?  Thank you.  Maybe I am not precise enough.

Page 7060

 1             Has anybody been found guilty?  Has anybody been convicted of

 2     those crimes?  That's what I'm interested in.

 3        A.   I am not sure.  I would need to review the judgement again.  So I

 4     think they were, but I am not sure.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.  I think you can see by the

 7     witness's somewhat tentative answer that it's really -- there is no

 8     relevance to the question to any material issue that's been presented

 9     through this witness, nor is it germane to the subject matter of the

10     witness's testimony.  Frankly, what the witness's knowledge is, as to who

11     was convicted or not convicted of a given crime, is completely irrelevant

12     to any material issue at this trial which, from our point of view, seeks

13     to establish the General's guilt with respect to the crimes that are

14     charged in the indictment which is not necessarily derivative of any

15     other finding of guilt with respect to anybody else.

16             So I don't really see what the point of relevance is to this line

17     of questioning.  If the General has a particular avenue in mind that he

18     can articulate, that would be helpful.  Otherwise, I just don't see any

19     point in pursuing this particular line.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The witness has answered the question to the best

21     of his knowledge today, and I think we are now in a situation that

22     Mr. Tolimir has only one last question left, and then there are, perhaps,

23     some procedural matters.

24             Do you want to put another question or shall we leave it like

25     this for today?

Page 7061

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  First of

 2     all let me explain the relevance of the matter.  What is relevant here is

 3     the fact that the witness said that he read the documentation in respect

 4     of the Srebrenica cases that had to do with Trnovo.  He studied all the

 5     materials relative to Trnovo.

 6             Second of all, I want this document to be admitted into evidence.

 7     We see the document both in English and in Serbian.  This is a report

 8     that was looked at during the Srebrenica group trial.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  For the record, the witness didn't say that he

10     studied all materials relative to Trnovo, but probably most of it.

11             This document will be received as an exhibit.

12                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the document under 65 ter number

14     00087 will be assigned Exhibit D00130.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

16             For today this concludes the cross-examination of Mr. Janc.  I am

17     not sure when he will be called again into the courtroom for a

18     continuation of the cross-examination.  Perhaps Mr. Vanderpuye can give

19     us an estimation, and especially for the benefit of Mr. Tolimir.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  All right.  I think I have an answer.  We should

21     be able to put Mr. Janc back on the stand at the end of next week.  We

22     have arrangements for an interpreter, a Dutch interpreter to attend to

23     the next witness.  Follow that, we have an expert who has a small window

24     of opportunity in which to give his testimony, and so we expect that we

25     would be able to put Mr. Janc on at the end of next week.

Page 7062

 1             I think I have the following information for the Trial Chamber

 2     with respect to interpretations -- translations, I am sorry, with respect

 3     to the following exhibits:  P00368 B, 65 ter number 3149 B, now has an

 4     English translation; the same for P00841 B, which is 65 ter 2904 B; the

 5     same for P00841 C, which is 65 ter 2904 E; and finally, P00854, which is

 6     65 ter 6460.  All of these have English translations now, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  They are now exhibits.

 8             Is there anything else to raise before we adjourn?

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  The only thing that comes to mind,

10     Mr. President, is if Mr. Tolimir can tell us approximately how much he

11     has left for Mr. Janc.  That might be helpful also in terms of future

12     scheduling.  I might have a brief redirect for him as well, but that

13     might be helpful to know.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Many new

16     issues have been raised here.  The witness has not studied all the

17     documents.  I expect him to make up for that and study them for when he

18     next appears.  The Defence will continue cross-examining him at any time

19     chosen by the Court.  We only want the truth to be known and we don't

20     have a problem with him working for the OTP and being contacted by the

21     OTP.

22             In the meantime, all we care about is to clarify and get to the

23     bottom of as many issues as possible, both during the cross-examination

24     as well as during the re-examination by the OTP.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I take it that you didn't give the Prosecution

Page 7063

 1     any indication about the length of your cross-examination; is that

 2     correct?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I said

 4     that bearing in mind the schedule of the witnesses who have been planned,

 5     we take into account all the reasons.  We are not worried about the

 6     contacts that the witness may have with the OTP, and the OTP should be

 7     the ones to choose the time --

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sorry, there was only one question.  Can you give

 9     a time estimation.  That was all.  We are under time pressure, we have to

10     leave the courtroom.  It will be needed for another Trial Chamber.  Can

11     you give a time estimation; yes or no?  This is a very simple question.

12             Mr. Gajic.

13             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] I believe that Mr. Vanderpuye and I

14     will get in touch either today or tomorrow and we will deal with the

15     issue of the time still necessary for the rest of the cross-examination,

16     and I hope that the situation will be somewhat clearer on Monday or on

17     Tuesday at the latest.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  That will be appreciated by the

19     Chamber.  We have to adjourn now.

20             Mr. Janc, you have to come back at a later stage.  Please bear in

21     mind that you are not allowed to have contact about the content of your

22     testimony during the break.  We have to adjourn now and resume next

23     Monday, the 1st of November, in the afternoon, quarter past 2.00 in this

24     courtroom.

25                           [The witness stands down]

Page 7064

 1                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

 2                           1.52 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday, the

 3                           1st day of November, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.