1 Thursday, 11 November 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning.
6 The witness should be brought in, please.
7 MR. THAYER: If I may, Mr. President, while the witness is being
8 brought in.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
10 MR. THAYER: Good morning to you and Your Honours. Good morning
11 to the Defence. Good morning, everyone.
12 I just wanted to let the Chamber know I followed up on Honourable
13 Judge Mindua's inquiry yesterday regarding Ramo Osmanovic and his son and
14 whether there would be any testimony before the Trial Chamber concerning
15 him. What I found out was that, as I mentioned yesterday, we have a
16 couple of witnesses who were at the Sandici Meadow who will be able to
17 testify about the circumstances there. One of those witnesses,
18 Witness 51, PW-14, I can tell the Trial Chamber, did identify
19 Mr. Osmanovic in his testimony, in his prior testimony, his 92 bis
20 testimony. He was witness PW-127 in Popovic. He didn't say much more
21 than that, than just saying, I know that man, but that witness will be
22 here, and he will be discussing these events. So I wanted to let Your
23 Honours know that we do have somebody who will recognise Mr. Osmanovic
24 from the video that we're watching now.
25 [The witness takes the stand]
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Thayer.
2 Good morning, Mr. President Blaszczyk.
3 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Welcome back.
5 May I remind you that your affirmation to tell the truth still
7 THE WITNESS: I understand.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And Mr. Thayer is continuing his
10 Mr. Thayer.
11 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 WITNESS: TOMASZ BLASZCZYK [Resumed]
13 Examination by Mr. Thayer: [Continued]
14 Q. Good morning, sir.
15 A. Good morning, sir.
16 MR. THAYER: What I'd like to do is pick up where we left off and
17 resume playing the video for just a moment to get us started.
18 If we could resume playing at 10:18, if we could back up a few
19 seconds. We're at 10:17.6.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 MR. THAYER: Now, I think you testified yesterday about this
23 And if we could go to 11:14 now. And we should be at pages 30
24 and 31 of the road book, which is P1251.
25 THE WITNESS: Sorry, may I ask for a hard copy of the map book.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It should be handed over to the witness.
2 MR. THAYER: You spoke about the two brothers in Still A on
3 page 30 and how you were able to identify a portion of the destroyed
4 white house in the Still B behind Mr. Borovcanin's head. And I just want
5 to pick up from where we are in the video.
6 And if we could roll the video, please. We're at 11:13.6 in
8 [Video-clip played]
9 MR. THAYER: Okay. Now, we've stopped at 11:48.2 in Sanction.
10 And if we could turn to pages 32 and 33 in the hard book.
11 Q. Sir, you -- can you explain to the Trial Chamber what's going on
12 with the actual camera? We just saw Mr. Borovcanin and those two
13 soldiers interacting, and now we're focusing on the Sandici Meadow. Can
14 you describe the action of the camera between these two shots that we
15 just saw? What physically happens with the camera? What direction does
16 it travel?
17 A. The cameraman who recorded this footage, he was standing on the
18 site of the destroyed white house, and he recorded Mr. Borovcanin and
19 these two soldiers. And suddenly he moved the camera across the road
20 towards Sandici Meadow, and he -- we have the footage now from Sandici
21 Meadow. We see the people in the meadow, soldiers standing up there, and
22 part of the tank.
23 Q. Okay. And you're referring to a part of a tank. Can you
24 identify for the Trial Chamber in this image where that part of the tank
1 A. If -- on the footage on the screen and on the image from my road
2 book from the page 32, Image A, on the left side -- on the left side of
3 this image we see the part of the tank. It's not visible very well, but
4 when we play the video later on, we can see that this is a tank.
5 Q. Okay. And you're describing or referring to a dark object
6 immediately to the left of the group of soldiers who are standing around
7 the seated prisoners?
8 A. Yes, yes, I am referring to this object.
9 Q. Okay. And did your investigation disclose any testimony or
10 statements concerning the presence of a tank at the Sandici Meadow?
11 A. We -- in fact, we talked to a few people from Sekovici
12 Detachment. They mentioned that Sekovici Detachment had two tanks in
13 Bratunac and Konjevic on this road, in this area, but, in fact, none of
14 them admitted that this tank belonged to the Sekovici Detachment. Nobody
15 told us that this tank -- exactly this tank in Sandici Meadow is Sekovici
16 Detachment tank.
17 Q. Okay. So the Serb soldiers who belonged to these armoured units
18 wouldn't admit to the tank being theirs. Did you interview or have you
19 read any interviews or testimony of survivors or other people who were
20 present -- Muslim prisoners who were present on the meadow who referred
21 to a tank or stated that they saw a tank there?
22 A. Yes, I remember. I remember a statement, but I don't remember
23 the name of the people who have been interviewed. But I remember the
24 statement of one of the survivors, at least, who remembered the tank in
25 Sandici Meadow.
1 MR. THAYER: Okay. And for the record --
2 THE WITNESS: I don't remember his name.
3 MR. THAYER: Okay. For the record, Your Honours, you will be
4 hearing from, again, PW-14, Witness 51, with respect to that issue, and
5 I think there are other witnesses as well.
6 Q. Now -- and, again, the still here on e-court at 11:48.2, we can,
7 I think, see the tip of the antenna of Mr. Borovcanin's car in the
8 center; is that correct? Can you see that, sir?
9 A. Yes, it's correct.
10 MR. THAYER: Okay. Now, let's keep playing. I just want you to
11 describe what happens with the camera next.
12 [Video-clip played]
13 MR. THAYER: We've stopped at 11:53.2.
14 Q. We saw the image zoom in on the crowd of prisoners, surrounded by
15 these soldiers. Can you tell the Trial Chamber, is that zooming
16 something Mr. Petrovic Pirocanac did or is that something that the OTP
17 did in creating this presentation?
18 A. No, Mr. Pirocanac did the zooming.
19 MR. THAYER: And if we look at page 33 of your road book.
20 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber how it was that you determined the
21 location, as you've indicated, of Video Stills A, B and C in this circle
22 on your photograph?
23 A. I believe I told you it yesterday, that the feature of this area
24 is very significant, for me, at least, which is the small house in the
25 Still A from page 32, and the same small house is visible also in my
1 picture, on our panorama picture, on page 33.
2 Q. Right. Now, this photograph that we have here on page 33, is it
3 a single photograph or is it a composite?
4 A. No, this is a composite. We just recreated the panorama view of
5 Sandici Meadow. It's containing few photographs, I believe two or three
7 Q. And, physically, that was done by Mr. Lesic at the time in 2006?
8 A. Yes, physically, it was done by him. He was operating the
9 software which we used to create this panorama picture.
10 MR. THAYER: Now, just for the record, I note that on page 32 we
11 have indicated the time of Still B as 11 minutes and 54 seconds. I think
12 we all saw that this was an uninterrupted pan and shot, so that, I don't
13 think there will be any dispute, there's a typo there. Instead of "54
14 seconds," it should be "44 seconds."
15 Q. Do you agree, Mr. Blaszczyk?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Nyambe has a question.
18 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.
19 At page 4, line 7/8, you are noted, Mr. Thayer, having asked the
20 following question:
21 "And did your investigation disclose any testimony or statements
22 concerning the presence of a tank at Sandici Meadow?"
23 I was unable to pick up the tank in the screen that was shown.
24 Could you please replay that? Thank you.
25 MR. THAYER: Certainly, Your Honour.
1 We can do two things. We can go back to this particular footage,
2 and then we can focus in on another image, from a different angle, where
3 you can see the tank --
4 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.
5 MR. THAYER: -- or another tank, at least.
6 But let's try this again, and let's start at 11 minutes and, say,
7 40 seconds.
8 [Video-clip played]
9 MR. THAYER: We've stopped at 11:47.9 in Sanction. I think this
10 is about as good as we're going to get in this system in e-court, in
11 terms of visibility.
12 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, can you see what you previously described or
13 identified as the tank?
14 A. Yes, it's this black object on the left-hand side, next to the
15 group of the people in the middle. This is a tank, I believe this is a
16 tank. This picture maybe is not so clear, you know, the tank is not
17 visible. But when we play in slow motion in another part of the video,
18 we can see the part clearly, we can see the tank over there in this
19 place. That is not here, that is not visible, but it's the same --
20 exactly in the same place.
21 MR. THAYER: In the trial video that we have, we have done such a
22 slow-motion breakdown, almost frame by frame, of this portion of the
23 Petrovic video. Since we're trying to show just the Petrovic video, with
24 the exception of a couple of other things -- we don't have that right
25 now, but we can certainly go back to the trial video and isolate that
1 slow-motion section, in which it will be a little bit more visible. So
2 we'll need a couple of minutes to locate that time, but we can come back
3 to that, certainly.
4 Yes, Mr. Blaszczyk.
5 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.
6 THE WITNESS: If I may, I'd like to refer to page 28 of this
7 book. On Still Frame A, you see this tank quite clear. It's in the same
8 position we see on this -- on this image from page 32.
9 MR. THAYER:
10 Q. And, Mr. Blaszczyk, in which direction, in this frame, is the
11 tank pointed?
12 A. It's pointed towards south.
13 Q. Okay. So in this frame, is the tank pointed towards the men
14 seated at the Sandici Meadow or is it pointed away from the men and
15 across the road?
16 A. It's difficult to say. It could also be on the man sitting on
17 the meadow, but also to the hills which are visible just across the road.
18 We see the tank has a barrel and a machine-gun, I guess.
19 Q. And I think you've testified already, with respect to the Video
20 Still D, that you weren't able to precisely pin-point where, in the
21 Sandici Meadow area, this taNk was located in this footage.
22 A. Indeed. In fact, I don't know whether it is the same tank
23 visible on the Still Frame A or this is another one, because as I told, I
24 know the statement of the Sekovici Detachment people, that they had two
25 tanks. I don't know whether there was one or there was another nearby,
1 but it's possible that is the same one.
2 MR. THAYER: Okay.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, you were mentioning Video Still D.
4 You mean on page 28?
5 MR. THAYER: Yes.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, thank you.
7 MR. THAYER: Okay. Let's turn back to pages 32 and 33. And, in
8 fact, we can move on to pages 34 and 35.
9 And let's resume playing the video for a couple of moments so we
10 can see the transition to the next portion. We're starting at 11:47.9.
11 [Video-clip played]
12 MR. THAYER: We've stopped at 12:12.1 in Sanction. We could see
13 that there was a little bit of a blacked-out portion there and then some
14 footage of an ammunition crate.
15 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber, do you know what was going on
16 there on the tape, in that portion?
17 A. You mean this black portion? It's visible [sic] that was
18 over-recorded or just erased, the contents of this part of the video
19 where we see the black one. And next we see the crate of ammunition, and
20 we see also -- we notice APC -- Serbian APCs.
21 Q. Okay. And we're coming up to that portion of the APCs. Do you
22 know -- do you have any idea whether that footage of the ammunition crate
23 was shot at the same time as the footage we're showing, or was that
24 another example, like with the artillery shell, where the video was
25 recorded over? And if you don't know, that's fine.
1 A. I believe this is the part of the original raw material. It was
2 recorded on the 13 of July, 1995.
3 MR. THAYER: Okay. Let's play for about another 20 seconds.
4 Again, we're at 12:12.1 now.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 MR. THAYER: We've stopped at 12.35 in Sanction.
7 Q. The Trial Chamber has seen some of this footage already of these
8 Pragas and the BOVs firing their anti-aircraft cannons. Where are we
9 now? What is this location?
10 A. I managed to spot this location. This is in the vicinity of the
11 village of Pervani. The village is located about 3.000 -- 2.800 metres
12 from Sandici Meadow towards Konjevic Polje, towards west from
13 Sandici Meadow.
14 Q. Okay. And just in terms of the road book, we are looking at the
15 approximations almost the same as Video Still B, just for the record. Is
16 that correct, Mr. Blaszczyk?
17 A. Yes, this is correct, almost the same.
18 Q. Okay. And is this footage still being shot by Mr. Petrovic
20 A. Yes, this footage is shot by Mr. Petrovic.
21 Q. And is he still with Mr. Borovcanin?
22 A. He's still with Mr. Borovcanin. If we play later on, we can see
23 even Mr. Borovcanin walking towards the Praga and BOV.
24 Q. Okay. And just to be clear, how did they get to this location?
25 A. They used the car they had at that time, which Mr. Borovcanin was
1 using, Pirocanac and a driver.
2 MR. THAYER: Okay. Let's pick up the video. Again, we're at
3 12:35.1, starting.
4 [Video-clip played]
5 MR. THAYER:
6 Q. Now, we've stopped at 13:38.9. And were you able to just see
7 something happening with Mr. Borovcanin's car?
8 A. Yeah, we see a part of Mr. Borovcanin's car is standing behind
9 the Praga and BOV.
10 Q. Okay. And did you see the door open on the car in that footage
11 or do you want to see it again?
12 A. Could you play it, please?
13 MR. THAYER: Okay.
14 [Video-clip played]
15 MR. THAYER: Okay. We're at 13:38.4.
16 THE WITNESS: Yeah, now it's visible that that door is open.
17 MR. THAYER:
18 Q. Okay. And we have a time code here of 16:48.16 on the 13th of
19 July. And you're familiar with this footage. Just to give us a little
20 preview, who is getting out of the car at this point?
21 A. This is -- from this side, this is the driver and Mr. Borovcanin.
22 I know that, because later on he's visible on the road also --
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. -- walking towards Praga and BOV.
25 Q. Okay. Now, we started this footage at the point where
1 Mr. Petrovic began filming these fighting vehicles firing the
2 anti-aircraft guns at 12 minutes and 12 seconds, and we see here that
3 Mr. Borovcanin and his driver get out of the car about a minute and a
4 half later, after watching these cannons firing.
5 Now, Ms. Gallagher, in her testimony, referred to the statement
6 given by one of the Serb soldiers operating one of the anti-aircraft
7 cannons here, that this firing into the woods was done at
8 Mr. Borovcanin's instructions for the sake of the cameras. Now, based on
9 your investigation, interviewing of witnesses who may have seen armoured
10 vehicles, anti-aircraft weapons, on this road, firing, did you find this
11 statement by this Serb gunner to be credible, that the firing only at
12 these locations happened because Mr. Borovcanin wanted to do it for the
14 A. No, it's not credible for me, I believe. Okay, maybe at this
15 moment the fire was opened on the request of Mr. Borovcanin, but they
16 used to drive along this road and they used to shoot into the hills the
17 entire time.
18 Q. When you say "entire time," what are you referring to?
19 A. I mean the entire time when they have been located in this area
20 on the road between Sandici towards Konjevic Polje. And we have the
21 statement of a lot of people who heard the fire, who were shoot by this
22 fire, also people from the column.
23 Q. And, indeed, you've reviewed this footage numerous times. Did
24 you find any evidence that Mr. Borovcanin provided or gave any
25 instructions to these gunners in these vehicles before we see him getting
1 out of his car here in this still, after having watched them fire for
2 that minute and a half that we just watched?
3 A. No, no, I don't. As I said, as I just stated, there was shooting
4 here, and later on it's possible that when we see Mr. Borovcanin getting
5 out of the car and walking towards them, asking. Probably, possible, we
6 cannot exclude that he asked them to fire again.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Nyambe has a question.
8 JUDGE NYAMBE: You're talking about seeing Mr. -- somebody get
9 out -- Borovcanin getting out of the car. I see only a car open. I
10 don't see anybody getting out.
11 MR. THAYER: Yes, Your Honour. I'd asked Mr. Blaszczyk to give
12 us a preview of what we're going to see, and we're going to roll the tape
13 right now, as a matter of fact, so you can see the next stage in the
14 footage. And we're at 13:38.4, so let's keep rolling the video.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 MR. THAYER: Okay. We're at 14 minutes 23.8 seconds in Sanction.
17 Q. Can you identify who this individual is walking away from the
18 camera towards the anti-aircraft vehicle?
19 A. I believe this is Mr. Borovcanin.
20 Q. And we heard some music playing in the background after that door
21 was opened. Can you tell us what's going on with that?
22 A. This is music coming out from the car, from the Mr. Borovcanin
23 car. It has been confirmed by Mr. Petrovic Pirocanac.
24 Q. Okay. Let's just look at your road book for a couple of moments
25 here. I think we can all see, particularly in Video Stills B, C and D,
1 that those were derived from the clip that we just saw. What is going on
2 in Video Still A? Can you explain that to us? We see two different
3 times on the left and the right. We have "14:08" on the left and "14:07"
4 on the right. I should say "14:08.8" and then "14:07.18" [Realtime
5 transcript read in error "14:07.8"] on the right on Still A on page 34,
6 and we see the time codes stamped on the video still. And then there is
7 a red dotted line down the middle of that video still. Can you just tell
8 us what's going on with that?
9 A. Because Mr. Pirocanac Petrovic used a camera with not -- without
10 a wide lens, we just matched two footage images from this recording.
11 They are next to each other. This is why, just to make it visible, we
12 put this dotted line over here that's showing that this is not one
13 footage image from the recording but two footage images matched together.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just to be clear on the record, line 25 of
15 page 13, you, Mr. Thayer, are recorded to have said:
16 "I should say '14:08.8,' and "14:07.8' but the last "8" should be
17 "18" if we look at the road book.
18 MR. THAYER: Yes, you're correct, Mr. President, absolutely,
19 thank you.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You're recorded as saying "14:08.7" -- sorry, I
21 repeat. You're recorded having said "14:08" and then "14:07.8," and it
22 should read "14:07.18."
23 MR. THAYER: Precisely.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now we have it.
25 MR. THAYER: Okay.
1 Q. With respect to this Still A, is another way of looking at it or
2 explaining it that what we are looking at are two frames from the video
3 that were close to each other that you've just put together, one that
4 elapsed after the other one?
5 A. Yes, that's correct. I would like to create a better view or a
6 wider view of this area.
7 Q. Okay. And if we look at your photograph on page 35, how were you
8 able to determine that this is where the action in Video Stills A through
9 D took place?
10 A. You see that looks a little bit different, but if you look -- if
11 we look at the edge of the hills in front of us, we can see this is the
12 same. And I was on this place, and we played this video, raw material,
13 Petrovic material, and it could be the only place when it was recorded.
14 If you look at the shape of the hills at the end of the picture, for
15 example, 55, if you look at the end and the shape of the same hills of
16 the Frame C from page 54 [sic], you can compare that is the same -- the
17 same line of hills.
18 MR. THAYER: Okay. Let's turn the page and go to 36 and 37.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Blaszczyk, you were referring to page 34,
20 I think.
21 THE WITNESS: 34, yes, that's correct, sir.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
23 MR. THAYER: I think we can dispense with playing the footage for
24 these two pages. I think the Trial Chamber saw some of this with
25 Ms. Gallagher.
1 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber how you were able to match up the
2 video stills on page 36 with your photographs on page 37 of these various
4 A. If we would see the video, we see that the APCs, they are moving
5 towards Konjevic Polje. Another 300 metres or 400 metres from the place
6 where we seen the recordings before, there are a few houses on the left
7 side on the road, and I located these houses, and I also managed to
8 compare these houses from the Petrovic video to compare the features of
9 these houses on that day when I took the photos of these houses, and they
10 are the same houses which are visible on the Petrovic video.
11 Q. Okay. Now, if we look at the houses in your 2006 photographs, 1
12 and 2, we can see that it appears that there's been some repair work in
13 some places on these houses, so -- and they look different in 2006. How
14 can you be confident that these are the same houses from the footage?
15 A. Of course they look different, but if you look at the shape of
16 the houses and the order of these houses, how they're standing to each
17 other, we see that they are the same. Okay, you have to take into
18 consideration that, after the war, the houses were rebuilt somehow, but
19 it's visible that they are still the same even after the reconstruction.
20 Look at the shape of the windows, for example, the House A from the Frame
21 A, and look at the picture I took or Zoran took in 2006.
22 Q. Okay. Now, for the record, the Video Still D on page 36 is at 14
23 minutes 57 seconds of the video. And up to this point in the video, sir,
24 we're here in Pervani, in which direction were Mr. Petrovic and
25 Mr. Borovcanin headed? In which direction were they driving?
1 A. Driving towards Konjevic Polje, towards west, and following --
2 they are following the two APCs until this point of this video.
3 Q. Okay. And when you say they were following the two armoured
4 vehicles, what do you mean?
5 A. That we see on this picture that it was intention probably of
6 Mr. Borovcanin and Pirocanac to record the activity of these two APCs.
7 They are recording the shelling, the moving out.
8 Q. Okay. And at what point did they, to use your words, begin
9 following these APCs? At what point did that happen?
10 A. When -- you mean --
11 Q. Let me put it this way: Were these APCs already located at
12 Pervani when Mr. Borovcanin and Mr. Petrovic Pirocanac arrived on the
13 scene, or did the APCs and Mr. Borovcanin and Mr. Pirocanac all travel
14 together from some other location to Pervani?
15 A. No, it's visible that when they arrived to Pervani, the APCs were
16 located already there. The APCs were shooting towards the hills. And
17 then when Mr. Borovcanin approached the -- approached the APCs, the APCs
18 moved a few hundred metres towards Konjevic Polje and shooting again.
19 Q. Okay. And is it at that point that you're referring to that
20 Mr. Borovcanin follows those anti-aircraft vehicles?
21 A. Yes. I mean -- I mean, these few hundred metres, in fact, 300
22 metres or something like.
23 MR. THAYER: Okay. Now let's go to pages 38 and 39, please. And
24 let's resume playing the video. And we'll skip a little bit, but we'll
25 pick up in a moment.
1 Okay, we're at 14:28.8 in Sanction.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 MR. THAYER: We're just going to stop for a moment at 15 minutes
4 3.2 seconds on Sanction just so we have a time reference. I think the
5 Chamber remembers seeing these weapons firing, so we're going to skip
6 ahead and save about a minute or so.
7 If we could skip to, let's say, 16 minutes.
8 Thank you. We're now at 16 minutes. Let's resume playing.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 MR. THAYER: Okay. Now we're at 16:32.6 in Sanction.
11 Q. We can see that they are back in the car. We could hear,
12 I think, the -- you could hear the engine accelerating. They seem to be
13 moving a little bit faster. Can you tell the Trial Chamber, what's going
14 on here in this portion of the footage?
15 A. This is first recorded footage from Petrovic video that we see
16 that Mr. Borovcanin, together with Pirocanac and his driver, they are
17 returning towards Sandici Meadow. They are on the way now towards
18 Sandici, Kravica, Bratunac. They made that U-turn and they're turning
19 back to Sandici Meadow. This is first recorded footage by Mr. Borovcanin
20 on the way back. In the background, we can hear also the conversation
21 through the radio.
22 Q. And just while we're here, do you recall -- yes, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE NYAMBE: Just for clarification: On the video footage, who
24 is depicted as "NMG 2"?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's a question to me. Yes, this is no man,
1 just talking on the radio. But there is a mention of his nickname, the
2 officer. We know this nickname, this is the nickname of a member of the
3 special -- of the Sekovici Detachment of the Special Police Brigade.
4 I think his real name is Rade Cuturic.
5 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.
6 MR. THAYER:
7 Q. Okay. So we have this Special Police Brigade officer whose
8 nickname is Oficir; is that correct?
9 A. Yes, it's correct.
10 Q. Okay. And what is his command relationship, if you know, to
11 Mr. Borovcanin?
12 A. Mr. Borovcanin is the duty head of the Special Police Brigade,
13 and this Oficir, Rade Cuturic, is one of the commanders of the Sekovici
14 Detachment who is a part of the Special Police Brigade.
15 MR. THAYER: Okay. Let's keep rolling the tape for just a couple
16 of seconds.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 MR. THAYER: Okay.
19 Q. Now, just to pick up on Her Honour Judge Nyambe's question, if we
20 look at the subtitling here, there's the initials "LJB," and he appears
21 to be saying: "Oficir, B or." Can you explain that to the
22 Trial Chamber, based on your numerous reviews of this video and listening
23 to the audio, and other portions of your investigation, what's going on
25 A. Yes, we can see -- we can hear, in fact, here that Ljubomir
1 Borovcanin responding to Oficir, to Cuturic, calling him on the radio,
2 Oficir, Bor."
3 Q. And what is "Bor"?
4 A. "Bor" is -- the people used to call Borovcanin "Bor." It's kind
5 of a nickname of Mr. Borovcanin. And the officer is responding on the
6 radio, I am listening, and Ljubisa Borovcanin ordering them to stop the
7 traffic behind them, behind Oficir. I believe Oficir was at that time in
9 Q. And based on your investigation, what is happening at this time
10 in Kravica?
11 A. Based on my investigation -- or our investigation, I believe that
12 the execution, or events in Kravica started at about this time. The
13 shooting started in Kravica warehouse, the people -- the killing began at
14 that time.
15 MR. THAYER: Okay. And this series of events, Your Honours, will
16 obviously be the subject of more testimony in the future and may, in
17 fact, be the focus of some more directed, narrow testimony of
18 Mr. Blaszczyk or another investigator about the specific timing of the
19 events concerning the Kravica warehouse executions and this video. So we
20 will come back to you with a narrower focused analysis of these events,
21 incorporating other exhibits. We don't want to take up the time with the
22 road book now, but I wanted to alert you and the Defence that we have
23 something like that in mind to look at these events in closer detail.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
25 But I would like to put a question to the witness related to this
1 part of the footage and the pages 38 and 39 of the road book.
2 We see the Picture A, it is quite similar to that we have on the
3 screen now, and the Picture 1 on page 39. On page 39, we see two houses
4 with an intact, new roof. This smaller house in front of the other
5 bigger house, it's not to be seen on the video still we have on page 38.
6 Can you explain that?
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, you are correct, sir. I've been in this
8 place. I talked to the people who are living in this place, who used to
9 live in this place before the war, and they confirmed that these two new
10 houses were built -- or built after the war. This is why it's not
11 visible on Petrovic video.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Both houses or one of them?
13 THE WITNESS: I think both of them. But I talked to the people
14 who are living in these houses right now, and they said that they used to
15 live there, but at least one of them, the bigger one and the red one from
16 my picture, was not at that time there. I think another one also, but --
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: To have a clear picture, I would like to see the
18 video from that point in time when we have the videos at the same point
19 in time as page 38, the Still A.
20 MR. THAYER: Certainly, Mr. President. We'll back that up and
21 get to the next portion of Mr. Blaszczyk's testimony, which was going to
22 be what's going on with these houses.
23 So let's back up to about 16, say, 20, please.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 MR. THAYER: Okay.
1 Q. Now, we have stopped at 16:33.3 in Sanction, which corresponds --
2 again, there's the four- to five-second difference with Video Still A,
3 which is timed at 16:28.12 in the road book. We see, as His Honour has
4 pointed out, two white-coloured houses in Video Still A, and you've
5 identified the house that's a little further down the road away from the
6 car as "the damaged house." If we look at Video Still B, what you
7 referred to as "the damaged house" appears to be a little bit smaller
8 than the house that's closer to the car that lies on the road earlier
9 than the damaged house. If we look at your photograph from 2006 on
10 page 39, we can see the damaged house that you've identified, and it
11 appears to be tucked away a little bit in some of the trees, both in the
12 Photograph 1 and then even more so in Photograph 2. I think we can see a
13 big haystack piled right in front of the remains of that house.
14 Can you tell us, Mr. Blaszczyk, was there any evidence, when you
15 were there in 2006, of the larger white-coloured house that we see in
16 Video Still A, and which is on our screen now in Sanction? Was there any
17 evidence of that larger white house next to the damaged house?
18 A. It's not evidence, in fact, because as I told Your Honour, that I
19 talked to the people who were living there, and they confirmed that this
20 house was over there before the war, and after the war -- after the war,
21 it was destroyed and built new house, and you see in my picture this new
22 red house --
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. -- on the fundamental -- how you call in English? On the same
25 place was built this new house.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If you compare the two pictures, then, indeed, it
2 is a different shape and we have a different location of the windows and
3 the entrance and the balconies.
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, this house, the first one on my picture and
5 the second one on my picture, the red ones, they were built after the
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
8 MR. THAYER:
9 Q. And just to nail it down a little bit: So it's not the case, as
10 in some of the photographs that we saw on pages 36 and 37, where you were
11 able to see the same houses but with repairs. In this case, the house
12 was completely torn down and a brand-new house was built on the
13 foundations or the same location as the house that was there during the
14 war. Is that what you're telling us?
15 A. Yes, you're correct. You know, just comparing the previous
16 houses from the previous page, we can see that they are the same houses,
17 but just rebuilt or renovated. But in this case, if we are referring to
18 the house on the page 38, the first one, the big one, it was erased, and
19 on this place was built a new one.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for that clarification.
21 Please carry on, Mr. Thayer.
22 MR. THAYER: Okay.
23 Q. So you told us that Mr. Borovcanin has done a U-turn and they're
24 heading back in the direction of the Sandici Meadow and Kravica. And I
25 note, while we're here at 16:33.3 in Sanction, the unknown speaker on the
1 Motorola radio in the first line is recorded as saying:
2 "The column is moving."
3 And then a caller identified as Oficir says:
4 "Yes, yes, but to avoid any surprises."
5 Again, just a quick question, because we will deal with this,
6 I think, in the future: Can you give the Trial Chamber an idea of what
7 this is referring to?
8 A. As we know from various statements, that people who were kept at
9 Sandici or captured near Sandici Meadow then were taken by column to
10 Kravica warehouse. And also there is another column, column of the buses
11 from -- buses containing women and children from Potocari who are passing
12 this area -- who are passing close to this area towards Konjevic Polje,
13 then Vlasenica and Kladanj.
14 Q. Okay. And just one last question on this topic: During the
15 course of your investigation, did the investigation reveal any witnesses
16 who described the traffic along this road being stopped to prevent the
17 columns of buses removing the civilian population from Potocari just
18 prior to the Kravica warehouse executions?
19 A. Yes, we have such witnesses. They describe us that the traffic
20 was stopped in Kravica -- before Kravica, in fact. Yes, we have such
22 MR. THAYER: Okay. Now, let's turn to pages 40 and 41. We can
23 save some time and not play video here.
24 Q. Again, we're on the road heading back to Sandici and Kravica;
1 A. Yes, it's correct. Mr. Borovcanin, Pirocanac, and the driver,
2 they are heading towards Sandici Meadow.
3 Q. And what is this location depicted on pages 40 and 41?
4 A. This location is in Lolici area. This is a small village located
5 about one kilometre from Sandici. And there are two walls. In fact, we
6 are passing by now the first wall in Lolici area.
7 Q. And how did you go about locating the stills on page 40 at your
8 positions shown in the photo on page 41?
9 A. The same as I told before, I drove the same way what was driven
10 by Mr. Borovcanin together with Pirocanac, and this is the only place
11 when this footage could be taken following the sequences of Borovcanin --
12 of Petrovic video. And also looking at the shape of the road and looking
13 at the surrounding hills, it's visible that this is the only place when
14 this footage could be taken.
15 Q. Okay. And it may sound like an obvious question, but what role,
16 if any, did this retaining wall that we see here play in your ability to
17 make this determination?
18 A. This retaining wall, you know, just keeping -- keeping the soil,
19 you know, from just falling down to the road.
20 Q. Okay. But, again, my question is: There is retaining walls, I
21 take it, all along these roads. How were you able to determine, if at
22 all, that this is the retaining wall that we see in the Video Stills A
23 and B on page 40?
24 A. Maybe it's not very visible, the shape of this wall on the
25 Petrovic video, because there are a lot of bushes over there, but if you
1 look very carefully and you follow the road, how -- which was driven by
2 Mr. Petrovic and Borovcanin, this is the only wall which could be
3 depicted at that time by them.
4 Q. Okay. Let's --
5 A. Sorry.
6 Q. Go ahead, Mr. Blaszczyk.
7 A. The next wall is just about 300 metres later on, on the left
8 side, leading towards Sandici Meadow. And we could see this wall also on
9 the video, on the Petrovic video, if we would play this video.
10 MR. THAYER: And, indeed, the next section, I think, will require
11 us to play about a minute of the video. And we're starting at 16 minutes
12 33.3 seconds in Sanction.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 MR. THAYER: Okay. We've stopped the video at 17:38.3.
15 Let's just look at page 42 for a moment in the road book.
16 Q. We can see, in Still A, at 17 minutes 31 seconds, Mr. Lesic was
17 able to capture a somewhat blurry image of a man, who appears to be in a
18 camouflage uniform, as the car speeds by. I don't think -- it would be
19 very difficult for anybody to have seen that in the footage we just saw,
20 but can you confirm that Video Still A, in fact, precedes where we are
21 now, which is 17:38.3 in Sanction?
22 A. Yes, it's correct. You know, just to catch this blurred man, you
23 know, in uniform, we should play this video in slow motion, but it's
24 quite difficult.
25 Q. Okay. I don't think we need to take up any time doing that right
2 Can you tell us who the individual is who is recorded here in
3 this frame that we have up on Sanction at 17:38.3?
4 A. This is Ljubisa Borovcanin.
5 MR. THAYER: Okay. Let's keep rolling the tape, please.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 MR. THAYER: Okay. We've stopped at 17 minutes 57.6 seconds.
8 Let's focus on the road book for just a couple of moments.
9 Q. Can you explain what we're seeing in Video Stills B, C and D on
10 page 42 and how you related that to your photograph on page 43?
11 A. The spot of this location was rather easy because it's quite
12 significant or just a lot of details we can follow, and this place is
13 located about 400 metres from Sandici Meadow. And I managed to -- on my
14 photo from page 43, we see this location exact, the location. By arrows
15 D, C, B, I marked the position of the man visible on the footage images
16 from page 42, B, C and D. And as I said before, you know, just a man
17 from the Picture A, from that Still Frame A we just passed was not
18 visible on the video because we passed very quickly. And this is a small
19 bend, you know, leading us to Sandici Meadow, and there is the barrier,
20 and the men from the Frames B and C are just crouching behind the
21 barrier, looking towards the woods, towards the hills.
22 Q. Okay, and you referred to two retaining walls in your testimony a
23 few moments ago. Can you tell us a little bit about the one we see on
24 page 43?
25 A. Yes, this is us -- I was referring to the second wall closer to
1 Sandici Meadow. This is the wall just located after -- after the wall
2 which -- on which barrier we saw two soldiers, you know, standing behind,
3 standing over there. And this is a few hundred metres from the previous
5 Q. And you've noted an X and a circle on page 43, which is
6 self-explanatory. Just for the Trial Chamber's information, have you, in
7 the course of your investigation, connected these bodies that were
8 exhumed at this location to any particular event?
9 A. Yes, we can hear from one witness, I believe he's a protected
10 witness, one member of the police, that -- who witnesses the execution of
11 a few men in Sandici Meadow. I suspect -- I think it could be the bodies
12 of the people who were found or put in this location. This location is
13 about 400 metres from Sandici Meadow. It's -- the men who were executed
14 in Sandici Meadow, they were executed towards the evening of the 13th of
15 July, 1995.
16 Q. Okay. And with respect to the number of bodies that were found
17 at this location marked as X, can you just give the Trial Chamber a rough
18 idea of what we're talking about. Less than 20, more than a hundred?
19 What are we talking about?
20 A. No, we're talking about a few bodies. We know that, it's
21 confirmed that there were exhumed 17 bodies in 2004 by Bosnia Federal
22 Commission. 17 bodies were found in this ditch behind this barrier.
23 Q. Okay. And, again, just to remind us, the Trial Chamber has heard
24 a lot of testimony and has seen evidence in this very video of many,
25 many, many men, Muslim prisoners, being detained at the Sandici Meadow.
1 Where did they end up going after being collected at the Sandici Meadow?
2 A. Most of them were transported to Kravica warehouse, and we know
3 what happened in Kravica warehouse. And the remaining prisoners, towards
4 the evening, as we heard -- we interviewed a witness from the police,
5 that he confirmed that the remaining prisoners were killed in
6 Sandici Meadow. But most of the people, prisoners from Sandici Meadow,
7 were moved to Kravica warehouse.
8 MR. THAYER: Okay. Let's go to pages 44 and 45. Again, we don't
9 need to play the video, particularly because I think that it will be
10 difficult to grab this frame using the equipment we have here in the
11 courtroom, this Frame A on page 44.
12 Q. Again, how were you able to locate Frame A in your photo on
13 page 45?
14 A. As I said before, you know, just I compare features of the
15 terrain over there, the shape of the road. I follow the movement of the
16 camera and I located this place. I had noticed that this was this place
17 where this man is depicted.
18 Q. And how far away from the Sandici Meadow are we now on pages 44
19 and 45?
20 A. We are very close to Sandici Meadow, about 250 metres from
21 Sandici Meadow.
22 MR. THAYER: Okay. Let's just go back to the video.
23 We're at 17:57.6. I think we can see that we've almost captured
24 the Video Still A on page 46 of the road book here. The Trial Chamber,
25 I think, has already seen this footage with Ms. Gallagher. We have a
1 soldier here who is wearing fingerless gloves. We sometimes refer to him
2 as "glove man." He's very familiar, we've seen him in footages that's
3 being played over and over again. I think the Trial Chamber's already
4 seen "glove man," the soldier with the gloves, being interviewed by
5 Mr. Petrovic, and some Muslim men walking out of the woods along the top
6 of a ridge, sort of walking in single file. So I think we can dispense
7 with playing this video.
8 Q. Again, can you tell us how you were able to locate these stills
9 on Photographs 1 and 2 of page 47? And then I want to ask you a specific
10 question about Photograph 2.
11 A. My answer would be the same as before, you know. Just I compare
12 the shape of the road, I compare the features of the terrain, the details
13 of the terrain, and definitely, for sure, I'm 100 per cent sure that this
14 is the place when the footages from page 46 were recorded, the same as I
15 marked on page 47 of my panorama view and another picture, Picture 1 and
16 Picture 2.
17 Q. Now, I think that everybody has been able to see the road has
18 twists and turns and various features. If we look at -- and we can see
19 that from Photo 1 on page 47.
20 If we look at Photo 2 on page 47, what you refer to as your
21 panorama shot, this photograph seems to suggest that this road is a
22 racetrack that goes in a circle. Can you explain what's going on in this
23 photograph here?
24 A. My colleague, Zoran Lesic, used the equipment that were given us,
25 let's say -- imagination that this road is going in this way, but, in
1 fact, this road is a fairly straight road with two turns on the right and
2 the left, a rather straight road.
3 Q. Okay. So is it fair to say that the curvature that we see that
4 begins in the middle of Photograph 2 and then extends to the right of the
5 image is a side effect, as it were, of this attempt to get a full
6 panoramic image?
7 A. Yes, this is correct. But having imagination how this road
8 looks, it's better to look at -- exactly the shape of this road, it's
9 better to look at Picture 1. This is exactly the road that -- we see
10 this road, you know, just from -- from Point C, let's say, or from A/B
11 towards -- towards the destroyed white house.
12 MR. THAYER: Okay. Now, if we turn to pages 48 and 49.
13 Q. After the discussion with "glove man," we see in the video the
14 car stop -- or we see that the car has stopped and, for example, this
15 soldier with the black headband, and then another soldier in a purplish
16 T-shirt is scratching his forehead with his pistol in his right hand in
17 Video Still C, where is this location, sir?
18 A. This is also on the road near Sandici Meadow. This is about 150
19 metres from Sandici Meadow and near the destroyed white house across the
20 Sandici Meadow.
21 Q. And the same question: Was there anything in particular about
22 the features in this portion of the road that allowed you to make the
23 determinations that are shown on Photographs 1 and 2, page 49?
24 A. The same answer. You know, when I followed the movement of the
25 camera, when I recorded these events, just I noticed several details
1 which I compare later on with the spot when I was there in 2006, and I
2 noticed that -- I spotted this place in 2006, and I made a photo of this
3 together with Zoran Lesic and made a photo of these particular places;
4 the shape of the road, the barrier. Later on, we can see also the stream
5 going down from the barrier.
6 MR. THAYER: Okay. Let's go to pages 50 and 51, then, for that.
7 Q. Can you tell us what's going on in Stills A through C on page 50?
8 A. This is also the place located where -- very near Sandici Meadow,
9 on the road, and we see two members of Jahorina unit standing behind that
10 barrier. And on the -- not visible very well here, but on Petrovic
11 video, it's visible very well, on Still C we can see the stream behind
12 the barrier. And I also made a picture of this stream on page 51 as
13 picture number 3. And the barrier itself and this bend of the road is
14 located very near the destroyed white house. This destroyed white house
15 is especially visible on my picture, Picture 1 from page 51.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. If we would play Petrovic video, also this destroyed white
18 house should be -- I believe, should be visible on this. A little bit.
19 Not much, but a little bit.
20 Q. Okay. Now focusing on Video Still C from page 50 and Photograph
21 3 on 51, you said that there's a stream. So if we're looking at, for
22 example, Photo 3, is that water that you can see through the brush?
23 A. Yes, this is water.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you indicate the location of the stream on
25 Photo 4, page 51?
1 THE WITNESS: I indicated -- no, no, I didn't, but I indicated
2 the position of -- or let's say the location when the footage from
3 Petrovic video was recorded, A, B, C, this is exactly in this location
4 when I marked on Photo 4, an arrow, you know, just indicating the
5 position of the footage of A, B, C. Below the barrier, there is the
6 barrier. You know, if you zoom in this picture, it's visible that there
7 is a barrier. Behind the barrier, there is a creek, a small stream.
8 MR. THAYER:
9 Q. This is just a stab, Mr. Blaszczyk, but in Photo 4, if you look
10 at the lower right-hand corner of the photo, if you look at the road and
11 then look up a little bit from the road, there appears to be a sort of
12 light blue or lighter colouration. Is that part of the stream or is that
13 just something else that looks lighter? I'm just guessing, but I --
14 A. This is part of the stream.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. This is part of the stream.
17 Q. But that's not exactly the same area in Photograph 3, I take it.
18 A. No, no, no.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. No, this Photograph 3, we can look at -- if you look at the
21 Picture 4, this Photograph 3 is taken on the place where I mark on
22 Photograph 4 as A, B, C.
23 Q. Okay. So that's up there at that location. All right.
24 Let's go to pages 52 and 53.
25 And Video Stills A and B, we see a man wearing a blue UN helmet.
1 The Trial Chamber has already heard some testimony about this
2 conversation between Mr. Borovcanin and the Serb soldier wearing the UN
4 If we can just flip back to page 50, Video Still B. You can just
5 see the first inkling of that soldier with the blue helmet there, and
6 then we're up closer on page 52.
7 The first question for you, sir: Can you identify whose car we
8 can see in Video Still B, the lighter-colour car that we see more of,
9 with the antenna on top?
10 A. Yes. This is -- this is the car used by Mr. Borovcanin and
11 Petrovic Pirocanac.
12 Q. And how close are we now, on pages 52 and 53, to the
13 Sandici Meadow?
14 A. In fact, we are next to Sandici Meadow on the road leading us
15 towards Kravica, Bratunac, where it was to Sandici Meadow.
16 Q. And just to move things along: I take it you employed the same
17 technique to make your determination as to the locations you've indicated
18 here; following the shape of the road and other features.
19 A. Yes, it's correct. This place is quite easy to locate if we know
20 this place, of course.
21 Q. And you've, again, indicated the top of the destroyed white house
22 which is visible from this location?
23 A. Yes, it's correct. And on the left side, I indicated also
24 Sandici Meadow.
25 Q. Okay. Now, if we turn the page to pages 54 and 55, let me just
1 ask you: If we look at Photos 1 and 2 that you took on page 55, can you
2 tell us what part of the house in these photos is visible back on
3 page 53? When we see where you've identified the destroyed white house
4 on page 53, what part of the house can you see, now that we're looking at
5 it straight on on page 55?
6 A. It's visible -- the attic of this house, remind me of the attic
7 of this house from my picture from page 53.
8 Q. You said the attic of the house; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And that's that triangular shape that we see; is that what you're
11 referring to?
12 A. Exactly, triangular shape. There is no roof there, but this is
13 the house.
14 Q. Okay. So is it -- just to kind of give us an idea of what's
15 happened: Is it fair to say that we're now back to where we started this
16 chapter, back in front of the destroyed white house in the
17 Sandici Meadow?
18 A. Exactly, we returned back to the beginning of this chapter at
19 Sandici Meadow.
20 MR. THAYER: Okay.
21 Mr. President, I see we're coming up on the break, and this is as
22 good a time as any for us.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, are you able to indicate how much
24 time you need in examination-in-chief on this topic?
25 MR. THAYER: I have just a few more questions about this chapter,
1 and then the remaining chapters are much faster. I think it will be
2 another hour.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
4 We must have our first break now, and we will resume at 11.00.
5 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. Thayer, please continue.
8 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 So we're at pages 54 and 55 of your road book, Mr. Blaszczyk.
10 Q. The men in Stills A through C on page 54, where are these men
11 coming from and where are they headed?
12 A. These men are coming out from the wood, from the hills behind the
13 destroyed white house, and they're heading towards -- they were directed
14 towards Sandici. They were located later on in Sandici Meadow.
15 Q. Okay. The Trial Chamber's already seen that footage of the
16 soldiers directing these men across the street to the meadow.
17 Looking at page 55, can you just tell the Trial Chamber what
18 features you were able to isolate to make your determinations about the
19 locations depicted there?
20 A. Okay. On the page 55, we see three pictures of this white house
21 from various perspectives. First, we see the Picture number 1, we see
22 the white view from the Sandici Meadow. Picture 2 is also white house,
23 the destroyed white house, seen from the road next to Sandici Meadow.
24 And I made a picture of the destroyed white house from the west part of
25 the destroyed white house, the back side of this white house and the
1 western part of the white house.
2 And if we watch the Petrovic video, we see that men are walking
3 from the woods, from the hills, using the path behind the destroyed white
4 house, going up to the front of the destroyed white house, were directed
5 to Sandici Meadow, passing the road and getting to Sandici Meadow.
6 If we look at the Petrovic video, you can easily recognise the
7 pillars of this white house by the western part of the white house, and
8 people are passing by the pillars of this destroyed white house.
9 Q. You describe -- sorry, please continue.
10 A. It's not marked here on Picture 3 on from the page 55, but if we
11 zoom in this picture, we could see also Kravica warehouse is visible from
12 this location. This Kravica warehouse is located about -- exactly 900
13 metres from this location.
14 MR. THAYER: Okay. I think we might lose the resolution on the
15 e-court copy of the road book that we have.
16 Q. I can't remember off the top of my head, but does your
17 interactive DVD or CD programme enable you to zoom on this photograph to
18 see it?
19 A. It should be possible.
20 Q. Okay. Now, you described a path on which these men were walking.
21 Have you been on that path yourself, sir?
22 A. Yes, I was there, I've been there quite many times.
23 Q. And can you describe the topography of this white house? As we
24 see on Photograph 3 of page 55, can you describe the lay of the land as
25 it extends backwards away from the direction of the Sandici Meadow behind
1 the destroyed white house?
2 A. As we see this destroyed white house is located above the road
3 next to the Sandici Meadow, is located behind a small hill, and if we go
4 behind this house, we go down, the path leading us down to the small
5 valley over there, and then if you would walk up to the hills, you have
6 to walk up, in fact.
7 Q. Okay. And so you're saying that the path basically leads down
8 into a valley. Is there any water or water source down at the bottom of
9 that valley?
10 A. I think that there is -- there is the stream. This is the stream
11 where I described before is going through this valley.
12 Q. Okay. If we look at Video Still C on page 54, there appears to
13 be some kind of vehicle visible there. Can you tell us what that is?
14 A. This is a bus. But if we play -- if we would play the Petrovic
15 video, we could see it clearly that this is a bus standing on the road
16 next to Sandici Meadow, between Sandici Meadow and destroyed white house.
17 Q. And, in fact, if we play this video a little bit more, do we see
18 more than one bus at this location?
19 A. Yeah, we see more -- more than one bus. We see also a few trucks
20 over there.
21 Q. And what were they used for?
22 A. The buses and trucks were used to transport the prisoners from
23 Sandici Meadow to Kravica or to Bratunac, and also it could be -- I know
24 that at one stage the buses with children and women, they stop at
25 Sandici Meadow.
1 MR. THAYER: Okay. Let's turn the page to 56 and 57 in the road
3 Q. You've again identified the footage from Video Stills A through F
4 as occurring along this path that you've shown on page 57. Is that a
5 fair summary?
6 A. Yes, yes, it's correct. This is the path I just have described a
7 few minutes ago -- just a few seconds ago.
8 Q. And if we look at Video Still A, we see some men in uniform, with
9 weapons, walking in single file. What is this here that's depicted?
10 A. These people, these men with uniforms, I believe most of them
11 are -- were identified by us, by OTP. They were members -- mostly, they
12 were members of the police, and they are just guarding or they are just
13 taking the prisoners who stepped down from the woods, from the hills, and
14 taking them to Sandici Meadow, directing them to Sandici Meadow.
15 Q. And is this the path that you were referring to, sir?
16 A. Yes, yes, this is. And on -- I mentioned also the pillars of
17 this white house, on the western part of this destroyed white house. The
18 pillars are visible here on the page 56, on the Frame F.
19 Q. Now, this man that we see here in Video Still A, are you aware of
20 the fate of this man in the blue shirt, whose name is Ramo Mustafic? The
21 Trial Chamber will hear some testimony about that.
22 A. I know that the body of this man was found, but I don't remember
23 where, exactly, from the top of my head.
24 MR. THAYER: Okay. Well, the Trial Chamber will hear some
25 testimony pretty soon, I think, from Ms. Gallagher, when she talks about
1 what we refer to as the Muslim ID book.
2 Okay. I think we can keep moving. If we go to pages 58 and 59.
3 Q. Again, can you tell us what's happening in the action here in
4 Video Stills A through C? Where is this man who is wearing, it looks
5 like, blue rubber boots in Still B coming from and where he is headed?
6 A. On the Petrovic video, we know that this man is passing the
7 destroyed white house by the Sandici Meadow and is directed by soldiers
8 to go to Sandici Meadow.
9 Q. Okay. And you've located Video Still A on page 59 in
10 Photograph 1?
11 A. Yes, it's correct, and also in Photograph 2.
12 Q. Yes. Were there any particular features that helped you make
13 this determination?
14 A. On the Photograph 1, you could see the poles of the fence. It's
15 also very visible on the Frame A. And if we play video, itself, we could
16 see also the pillars and the back side of the destroyed white house.
17 Q. Okay. And if we go back to page 58 in your book, Video Still C,
18 we can see what appears to be the back of a bus. Based on your review
19 and knowledge of this tape, is this the same bus that we talked about a
20 moment ago or was this a second bus that was in the area?
21 A. I think this is the second bus. This is a second bus.
22 Q. Okay. And --
23 A. But to be sure, I would prefer to play the video first.
24 Q. And I think we will. We'll go back and play just a few seconds
25 of the video so we can see this action.
1 In this Still C, we see a small group of people who are huddled
2 over something, and I think the Trial Chamber's already seen, and we'll
3 see it in a moment, a group of people coming out of the woods, dragging
4 an injured person.
5 Do you recall, Mr. Blaszczyk, were the members of this particular
6 group all male?
7 A. Most of them were male, but there is one female also.
8 MR. THAYER: Okay. Before we play this portion of the video:
9 Over the recess, we located the slow-motion footage showing the tank that
10 Honourable Judge Nyambe inquired about, and we'd like to play it.
11 Unfortunately, on the court equipment it's not much of an improvement,
12 even in slow motion, over what we saw before, but we've got it cued up.
13 And if we want to keep looking at the Petrovic video, we need to close
14 out of it, so with the Court's permission, we'll just play it now, for
15 what it's worth. We might get lucky and you might be able to freeze it
16 right on the right frame, but, frankly, with this equipment, it's very
17 difficult. But we'll go ahead. And this is from P01008, which is the
18 transcript, and the trial video itself is P00991. And we are at 2 hours
19 39 minutes 52.3 seconds.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 MR. THAYER: That's about as good as we can get in here with this
22 equipment. So, unfortunately, we can't -- we've tried backing it up to
23 see if we can catch some of those frames, but that's what we've got right
25 Q. And let me just ask you, Mr. Blaszczyk: At this point in the
1 footage, with respect to this tank, do you know or do you have a
2 conclusion as to which direction the barrel of the tank is pointed?
3 A. I don't see here directly. It's difficult for me to adjust to
4 tell, to be sure.
5 Q. Okay. And you've viewed this video many times. If we look at
6 this black object here, which you've identified as the tank, on the left
7 of the screen, at the very top there appears to be something, and the top
8 of that something is a little bit light coloured. Can you tell us what
9 that is?
10 A. According to my analyst, it could be the machine-gun located on
11 the top of the tank.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, indeed, this picture is not very
13 persuasive. Perhaps you can, at a later stage, find out a better
14 picture, a better part of the video --
15 MR. THAYER: Sure.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- where this object is more and better visible.
17 We should leave this like it is at the moment.
18 MR. THAYER: Will do, Mr. President, and we'll continue with the
19 Petrovic video. We'll just pick up the Petrovic video at 21 minutes 52.9
20 seconds on Sanction.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 MR. THAYER: Okay. We've stopped at 23 minutes 24.3 seconds.
23 Ms. Gallagher has already testified about how
24 Mr. Petrovic Pirocanac explained that this footage was underlying footage
25 which somehow did not get recorded over when he was recording these
1 events on the 13th of July.
2 Q. Just prior to this, we saw a group of people emerging from that
3 path. Were you able to identify whether one of those was a woman?
4 A. Yes, yes, we can identify that one person from this group is a
6 MR. THAYER: Okay. Let's just go back for a second and we'll
7 take a look. If we could just go back a couple of frames, and tell us
8 which one.
9 THE WITNESS: It's the same female visible on my page -- I mean,
10 my book page 58, Frame C.
11 [Video-clip played]
12 MR. THAYER: We're at 23 minutes 19.4 seconds.
13 Q. Which of the individuals in this frame, if any, is a woman?
14 A. The lady, this is the person from my left side, the last one from
15 my left-hand side.
16 Q. Okay, wearing a striped shirt or sweater of some kind; is that
18 A. Kind of sweater, yes.
19 MR. THAYER: Okay.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Blaszczyk, how do you determine that this is
21 a woman and not a man?
22 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, if we play -- we can come back a
23 little bit and we can see the face of this person, and we can hear also
24 the voice of this person. It's visible that this is -- clearly visible
25 that this is a woman, if we play -- if we play the video. It's
1 difficult -- yeah, really, you are right, it's quite -- it's difficult to
2 came to conclusion from this position that this is a woman, but if you
3 play entire footage, we could see that this is a woman. We can hear also
4 her voice.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We should see this part of the video.
6 MR. THAYER: We're starting at 22 minutes 26.0 seconds in
8 [Video-clip played]
9 THE WITNESS: Could you play a little bit more, please.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 MR. THAYER:
12 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, you wanted to say something?
13 A. Yes. Could you play --
14 MR. THAYER: We're going to get, I think, to the point that I
15 asked you about before in just a couple of seconds. So we've stopped at
16 23 minutes 28.2 seconds. We'll continue playing.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 MR. THAYER: We've stopped at 23 minutes 54.9 seconds.
19 THE WITNESS: And this portion, just one second before, I saw the
20 face of this lady, and I saw the face of this lady on a better-quality
21 picture than this monitor, of course. And before she climbed, together
22 with other men, up there, we could hear her voice, and this is clear for
23 me that this is female voice.
24 MR. THAYER: And we can go back and --
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is, indeed, your evidence, but it was hardly
1 visible on this part of the video. But we saw this person again with
2 this clothing.
3 Judge Nyambe has a -- Judge Mindua has a question.
4 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 Witness Blaszczyk, we are talking about this person who is, in
6 all likelihood, a woman. What I would like to know is this: Do you know
7 how many women, in percentage terms, who were in the column, how many
8 women there were? That's my first question, and then I'll have a second
10 THE WITNESS: It's difficult to say exactly the percentage of the
11 women in the column, but there were women. We have some footages even of
12 the column, we see the women in the columns. How many, difficult to say,
13 but there were -- there were women.
14 MR. THAYER: Let's -- oh.
15 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Now my second question.
16 As a rule, women and children and the elderly were transported on
17 buses and trucks. Were we able -- or you able to discover how some women
18 found themselves in some of these columns?
19 THE WITNESS: Yes. We had some stories that some women didn't
20 want to leave their brothers, their men, their husband, and they wanted
21 to walk together with them to the woods to the free territory.
22 And, Your Honour, if you -- if you look at -- I believe, at the
23 testimony of Mr. Janc, there should be a report about exhumation of a few
24 places, including the places related to Pilica Dom, where also the body
25 of a woman was found over there. And we know, from a few witnesses, that
1 woman was kept in Pilica Dom, for example.
2 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
4 MR. THAYER: Okay.
5 Q. Let's just go back and look at that small portion again, and you
6 tell us -- you indicate to us when you hear the woman's voice. Just hold
7 up your hand so that we know when you hear the woman's voice. Okay?
8 A. Okay, but we have to go back.
9 MR. THAYER: Now we're starting at 22 minutes 44 seconds in
11 [Video-clip played]
12 MR. THAYER: We've stopped at 23 minutes 11.9 seconds.
13 THE WITNESS: This is the part when I hear the voice of woman. I
14 don't understand what he [sic] said, but for me this is clear, a woman
16 MR. THAYER: Okay. And let's keep playing this one more time.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 THE WITNESS: Yes.
19 MR. THAYER: And we've stopped at 23 minutes 17.7 seconds.
20 Q. Again, Mr. Blaszczyk, you've held up your hand again. What did
21 you hear?
22 A. Yes, we again -- I again hear the woman voice.
23 Q. Can you describe anything distinctive about the voice, if we go
24 back and listen to it on our own, later, that distinguishes it from any
25 other voice that you've heard?
1 A. Yes, it's typical for me -- not typical, but this is much softer
2 than man voice. And for me, I can easily distinguish this voice from the
3 voice of the men. I didn't hear this voice anymore again.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I put to you that there are some other
5 possibilities. We saw a young boy in a blue shirt passing by in the
6 video. Is it not possible that the voice belonged to this boy? And
7 there are, indeed, men who have a very high voice. How can you exclude
8 these possibilities?
9 THE WITNESS: I cannot exclude, Your Honour. But having this
10 picture, having this voice, and also having better-quality picture of the
11 woman behind the bus, you know, just close to Sandici Meadow, you should
12 be able or we should be able to recognise or just to be sure, almost,
13 that this is a woman. But, of course, I cannot exclude that it could be
14 a voice of the boy or -- but I think I heard this boy's voice, and I
15 don't think that this is his.
16 MR. THAYER:
17 Q. And to follow up on the Presiding Judge's question,
18 Mr. Blaszczyk: Based on your review of the video, where is that boy that
19 we saw in Video Still E on page 56 located at the time we see this group
20 of people carrying this injured person up the hill and from behind the
21 house? Where is the boy when you hear a woman's voice?
22 A. In fact, the boy -- the boy is with another group of the people,
23 not with this person I consider as a woman, not together with this person
24 I consider as the woman. We saw the group of the people. We saw the man
25 who was ordered to take out his shirt from -- T-shirt from him, and the
1 boy is just behind him and he's in this group. This group passed
2 already, I think.
3 MR. THAYER: Okay. And let's just roll the video for a couple
4 more seconds.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 MR. THAYER: Now, we're at 23 minutes 50 seconds. What we can
7 try to do is - it may be along the lines of the slow-motion tank
8 video - get you some better-resolution footage.
9 Q. But is there anything, in terms of this woman's physiognomy, this
10 person's physiognomy, that suggests to you that we're talking about a
11 woman in this still, as opposed to a man?
12 A. Yes, it is. If you look at the photo, I see the shape of the
13 woman. You know, I see the hair of the woman. As I said, I saw the
14 better-quality picture and I considered this person always as a woman.
15 Q. Okay. And unless she's carrying something in a pocket on her
16 shirt, what do you see on the right side of her body or the right side of
17 this person's body, sir?
18 A. On the right side of this person's body?
19 Q. Yes, in the chest area. You can say it, we're all grown-ups,
20 Mr. Blaszczyk.
21 A. This is the breast.
22 MR. THAYER: Okay.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Chamber is of the same view.
24 MR. THAYER: Now, let's continue rolling the tape just for a
25 couple of seconds. I don't want to overlap with what Ms. Gallagher has
1 testified about, but let's roll and -- okay, let's keep playing, please.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 MR. THAYER: We've stopped at 24 minutes 10.2 seconds.
4 Q. Ms. Gallagher has previously testified about this soldier and
5 some missing footage from this version of what we call the Petrovic video
6 that was retained in the Studio B version; specifically, some footage of
7 a couple of dogs. The Trial Chamber may recall that the dogs are missing
8 from this Petrovic video.
9 My question to you, sir, about this is: Were you able to
10 determine the location of this soldier and the soldier that's sitting
11 next to him on this video?
12 A. Your Honour, I know that these persons are sitting next to the
13 destroyed white house, but exactly in which location, I don't know. I
14 believe and my assumption is that this is towards on the eastern part of
15 the destroyed white house, across the road of Sandici Meadow, but I was
16 not able to determine the exact location where these persons are sitting.
17 Q. Okay. And in circumstances when you couldn't be so precise, did
18 the people go in the book or did the objects go in the book or not?
19 A. When I was not sure -- was not 100 per cent sure that I spotted
20 the proper location where the object or where the people were recorded, I
21 didn't put it in the book.
22 MR. THAYER: Okay. Let's go to page 60 and 61. We're drawing to
23 the end of this chapter.
24 Q. The Trial Chamber has already seen the slow-motion footage of the
25 Studio B Kravica warehouse execution footage, so we don't need to play it
1 again. We'll save a little bit of time. The question for you,
2 Mr. Blaszczyk, is: How did you make the determinations that you did on
3 pages 60 and 61 of your road book?
4 A. If we analyse the footages from Petrovic video I just have on
5 page 60 we clearly see the shape -- the details of the warehouse depicted
6 on these footages, and I know the location. This is Kravica warehouse.
7 And I compare details of this warehouse -- this building from Petrovic
8 video with details of the Kravica warehouse, itself, and I was there.
9 And also I can say that I also supported my view of -- from the previous
10 investigation, you know, the result of the previous investigation that
11 was done by the previous investigator that used to work for Srebrenica
12 case, like Jean-Rene Ruez and other of my colleagues. And if we look
13 closely at the wall of the warehouse, and you can -- we can count even
14 the holes of the bullets from Petrovic video. And if we look at the
15 same -- the same wall even right now, we can count, you know, just the
16 same amount of -- and position of the bullet-holes on the wall. And a
17 part of that -- the part of this half road in front of Kravica warehouse
18 is almost the same like depicted in the Petrovic video.
19 Q. Okay. And when we're looking at Video Still A on page 60, in the
20 center of the image, just behind these bodies that are piled up there,
21 what are we looking at, that big black-looking square?
22 A. This is a door, closed door, visible here as a black -- black
23 hole here. At the beginning during our investigation, we thought at the
24 beginning that this is open area, and two white objects over there in the
25 middle of this page could be the reflection of the windows inside the
1 Kravica warehouse. But after -- after making kind of experiment, that we
2 established that it has to be door, closed door. And these two light
3 objects in the middle of these doors are the handles of the doors. And
4 being in Kravica warehouse several times and also in another building of
5 this Kravica compound, I found similar doors with similar handles.
6 Q. And can you point out the location in the photos that you took or
7 are they anywhere in the photos you took on page 61 of this door that you
8 described or these doors that you described?
9 A. I am referring to the door from page -- depicted on the page 61
10 on my photos, on the Photos 1, just the door in the middle of the
11 picture. Of course, it's totally different now, because we have some
12 evidence also that -- I believe, that why the body in Kravica warehouse
13 were removed to Kravica warehouse. Also the door and the frame of the
14 door was destroyed at that time and then moved. And later on somebody
15 probably put this wooden, let's say, fence or door.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, we have heard another witness who
17 made this comparison of specific parts of this building on the video and
18 on the pictures taken later. I think it's not necessary to repeat that
20 MR. THAYER: Yes, Mr. President, and we're, in fact, done with
21 this chapter of the road book.
22 What I'd like to do now, very quickly, to just give another
23 perspective, is look at P104, the map book. And we'll be looking at
24 Maps 5 and 6 in the map book.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Nyambe has a question.
1 JUDGE NYAMBE: I just wonder if you can help me to put the
2 Petrovic video in context. Is it my understanding that it was taken in
4 THE WITNESS: Sorry, Your Honour. The Petrovic video was
5 recorded in July 1995.
6 JUDGE NYAMBE: Okay.
7 THE WITNESS: In two days, July 1995. This is 13 July 1995 and
8 the following day, 14 July 1995. Only my pictures and picture of Zoran
9 Lesic was together with UN Mission in May 2006. The only picture in this
10 book are from this period, from May 2006. But Petrovic video, itself,
11 the raw material and also material broadcasted by Studio B, this edited
12 material, Petrovic material, is recorded on 13 and 14 July 1995, the
13 entire material.
14 JUDGE NYAMBE: Okay. Now, looking at your reproduction of still
15 photos from the Petrovic video, I need to ask the following question:
16 What are the weather conditions in the areas covered in May, June and
17 October? October in the context of the site visit.
18 THE WITNESS: I can say that at that time when we were there in
19 May, and later on in June, and probably in some months later -- in fact,
20 May, June, July, August, are more or less the same -- the same weather
21 condition. October, the weather is going to be changed. In late
22 September/October, the weather is going to be changed. It's getting more
23 rainy, getting more cold, cloudy, and, of course, the leaves on the trees
24 are changing, the colours --
25 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.
1 THE WITNESS: -- in this area in this part of Europe. But, of
2 course, in July, most of July, August, temperature in this -- in this
3 part of Europe, in this area, is very high, very hot.
4 JUDGE NYAMBE: And the trees, the trees, are they as green in
5 July as they are in October?
6 THE WITNESS: Yes. Not as green as in October, but more green
7 than October, the trees, more green. It's not getting such colour like
8 in October. In October, the trees are getting a little bit different
9 colour; you know, just red, brown, losing the original spring or summer
10 colour, green.
11 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
13 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 If we could go to page 7 in e-court, please.
15 And if we could just scroll up a little bit. Okay. I just want
16 to spend a second on this map and then go to the next map, just to orient
18 Q. The road that we have been talking about in this last chapter
19 extends from where to where, Mr. Blaszczyk?
20 A. We were discussing the part of the road, Bratunac-Konjevic Polje,
21 but, in fact, we were focused on that part of the road between Kravica,
22 Sandici, and a little bit further down towards Konjevic Polje to Pervani,
23 to Lolici and Pervani.
24 Q. Okay. And I just wanted to show this map so that we could get an
25 idea of how these locations fit into, say, some of the more southern and
1 northern locations, like Zvornik and Srebrenica, itself.
2 Let's go to the next page, which is a cut-out of this same map.
4 What I'd like you to do, Mr. Blaszczyk, is just to write in a
5 couple of the locations that you've referred to during your testimony
6 yesterday and today along this road, understanding that this isn't going
7 to be scale or anything like that. But if you could fit in, if you have
8 to use a long arrow or something like that, where Pervani is,
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. Okay. And maybe on the other side of the road, you might have
12 some more room, if you could indicate where Lolici is.
13 A. [Marks]. May I remove this? [Marks]. Okay, I --
14 Q. Just write "Lolici," if you can.
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. Great. Now, were you able to determine, with any precision,
17 where along this road Mr. Borovcanin and Mr. Petrovic Pirocanac made
18 their U-turn to head back in the direction of Sandici and Kravica?
19 A. Not from the video because, as I said, the first footage, which
20 is showing us that Mr. Borovcanin and Pirocanac, they are returning to
21 Sandici Meadow, is visible about -- I believe about 1.000 metres from
22 Pervani, when they recorded -- when the recordings of APC was made. And
23 when they made the U-turn, it's not visible from -- exactly from the --
24 from the video. Possible that they did it in Pervani.
25 Q. Okay. And can you -- can you tell the Trial Chamber whether you
1 think that the U-turn occurred somewhere between Pervani and
2 Konjevic Polje, or did they do the U-turn, you think, between Pervani and
3 Lolici? And if you don't know, if you really can't tell, that's fine,
4 too. I just thought it might be helpful, based on looking at the
5 locations as they are here, to give us some idea.
6 A. Your Honour, I believe that they made a U-turn in Pervani. But
7 according to the driver of Mr. Borovcanin, I think they were -- they were
8 on their way to Konjevic Polje, and they didn't reach Konjevic Polje.
9 Then they made a U-turn between Konjevic Polje and sometime -- and
10 between Sandici, but he couldn't describe exactly the location where they
11 made a U-turn. The same, I believe, as Mr. Borovcanin in his statement,
12 as far as I remember. But I can conclude it only based on Petrovic
14 MR. THAYER: Okay. Now, we need to save the document, please,
15 Mr. President, and the Prosecution will tender it as well.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received, this marked map.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1345, Your Honours.
18 MR. THAYER: Now -- go ahead, Mr. Blaszczyk.
19 THE WITNESS: But, of course, Your Honour, I couldn't be exact --
20 correct with this marking. You know, just the location is more or less
21 proper one, good one, but it's not to the scale.
22 MR. THAYER:
23 Q. Just to save a little bit of time, you've got a component of your
24 interactive CD devoted to this chapter that we've just completed, similar
25 to the one that you had for Potocari, with links to the various locations
1 we've just seen, 360-degree rotation, in addition to a special portion on
2 the Kravica warehouse. I don't think we need to spend some more time on
3 that right now, but can you just tell the Trial Chamber what the
4 functions are in the Kravica warehouse portion, just so you can give them
5 a quick idea of what the capabilities are of that portion of your
6 interactive CD.
7 A. This Kravica portion of this presentation, we can see the Kravica
8 warehouse, itself, my picture. And using these links, we can go inside
9 the Kravica warehouse, we can see the entire room in Kravica warehouse,
10 in the western part of the Kravica warehouse, and we also can be linked
11 to the original footage from Petrovic video, I mean the footage
12 broadcasted in the Studio B, and we can have overview, also, of most of
13 the compound of the Kravica warehouse, itself. But the most interesting,
14 I think, would be just to go inside the Kravica warehouse, to make a
15 360-degree view of the inside of Kravica warehouse, the western part of
16 Kravica warehouse.
17 MR. THAYER: Okay. Let's go back to the road book for the last
18 two chapters, which will be much briefer than what we've already looked
19 at. And I understand I'm five minutes shy of my one-hour estimate,
20 Mr. President. I'm going to have to exceed that by a few minutes, but we
21 will be moving very quickly. I think as Your Honours have probably seen
22 from the road book, there are much fewer images to discuss, but there are
23 a couple of things that are on the Petrovic video that didn't make it
24 into the road book that I think would be helpful for Your Honours to hear
25 from Mr. Blaszczyk about, in terms of where we are at certain points in
1 the video. So when Your Honours go back and review the video yourselves,
2 you'll have some understanding of where some of these places are.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Go ahead, please.
4 MR. THAYER: So let's keep playing the Petrovic video. We're
5 currently at 24 minutes 10.2 seconds in Sanction.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 MR. THAYER:
8 Q. Now, the Trial Chamber's already heard about these French combat
9 rations and what they're doing on this video. We've stopped at 24
10 minutes 39.6 seconds, and we are passing by what appears to be some kind
11 of UN or UNHCR convoy. Can you tell the Trial Chamber where we are,
12 where we're headed, and what day we're talking about here?
13 A. We are talking about -- this is recording from the 14 July 1995,
14 the second day of the visit of Mr. Petrovic in this Bratunac/Srebrenica
15 area. And they are on their way from Bratunac to Potocari and then to
16 Srebrenica and Zeleni Jadar. We are on the 14 July 1995 now. This is
17 following day.
18 Q. Okay. And that means that they're heading south; is that
20 A. Yes, it's correct. They are not anymore at the road
21 Bratunac-Konjevic Polje. They are on the road Bratunac-Potocari-
22 Srebrenica. They're heading south.
23 MR. THAYER: Okay. Let's play the video for about another
25 [Video-clip played]
1 MR. THAYER: So we've stopped at 25 minutes 24.6 seconds. We can
2 see the DutchBat sign on top of the building.
3 Q. Again, we're in Potocari; is that correct?
4 A. Yes, it's correct, we are in Potocari. Mr. Borovcanin and
5 Petrovic, they are passing by the DutchBat UN base in Potocari. They are
6 heading towards Srebrenica.
7 MR. THAYER: And let's keep -- keep going.
8 [Video-clip played]
9 MR. THAYER: And we've stopped at 25 minutes 47.5 seconds of the
11 Q. We can see a large amount of belongings and luggage and things
12 along the side of the road. Again, can you tell us where in Potocari we
13 are here?
14 A. We are in Potocari, near the bus express compound and Jazin
15 [phoen] factory and the blue building.
16 Q. Okay. We're just going to --
17 A. We seen -- we seen this location yesterday in the first chapter
18 of this book.
19 Q. And we're just a day later; correct?
20 A. Yes, this is the picture -- the footage from the day later.
21 MR. THAYER: Okay. We're going to roll the tape for about
22 another 15 seconds to about 26 minutes.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 MR. THAYER: We're at 26 minutes and 1.7 seconds.
25 The Trial Chamber, I think, with Ms. Gallagher, has already seen
1 this portion of the footage where Mr. Borovcanin and
2 Mr. Petrovic Pirocanac exchanged greetings with this man who's leading
3 his horse.
4 Q. Now, just to make it clear what's going on, I'm going to ask you
5 a couple of questions. Based on your familiarity with the Studio B
6 footage, what do we see on that version of the footage, that version of
7 the Petrovic video -- right after we see this portion on this video what
8 we refer to as the Petrovic video? What happens on the Studio B version
9 at this point?
10 A. On Studio B version, with edited version of Petrovic video, this
11 footage we see on the screen right now is connected with the events in
12 Kravica warehouse, connected with the bullets visible in the front of
13 Kravica warehouse. In fact, as I said, this is edited material, but this
14 is not true because this picture is taken -- or the footage is recorded
15 on the 14 July 1995. It's mean that one day later when -- after Kravica
16 events happened.
17 Q. Okay. So what we -- what we see in the Studio B version of this
18 tape, starting at this point, is what we just saw on page 60 of your road
19 book, is that correct, sir, just to tie it to your road book?
20 A. Yes, yes, you're correct.
21 Q. And, again, what date did the Kravica warehouse mass execution
22 take place?
23 A. Kravica -- mass execution in Kravica warehouse took place on the
24 13, 1-3, July 1995. This picture we see -- I see on my left-hand screen
25 is recorded on the following day, on the 14 July --
1 Q. Okay.
2 A. -- and in totally different place. This is the place depicted
3 after area between Potocari and Srebrenica, between Potocari and Gostilj.
4 I don't remember, from the top of my head, the name of this place, but I
5 know exactly where the place is located. I know this place.
6 Q. So how is it that this footage that we saw a few moments ago, or
7 that we looked at in your road book, this footage of the Kravica
8 warehouse mass execution, with the bodies in front of the door piled up,
9 how is it that that footage, which was taken on the 13th of July, winds
10 up in the Studio B version right next to events which were recorded on
11 the 14th of July? How did that happen?
12 A. As I said, the original material of Petrovic video was edited.
13 It's mean cut off in few parts and edited in different order. This is
15 Q. And my question is: Who did that?
16 A. It was editor in Studio B.
17 Q. Okay. So, basically, Studio B chopped up the raw footage they
18 got of the Petrovic video and put it out of order; is that another way of
19 saying it?
20 A. Yes, this is correct.
21 MR. THAYER: Okay. Let's roll the videotape for about another
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Mindua has a question to that. Please stop
24 for a moment.
25 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness. I was wondering why
1 Studio B had edited or changed the order of the images that we see.
2 THE WITNESS: My explanation would be that I believe this is
3 typical for documentary, that not necessary to put everything in the
4 order. They put in the order what seems, for them, would be the most
5 interested for the public, just for the people who were watching the
6 documentary, and this -- probably this is why they cut this part and they
7 connected this part with another one, showing better -- or maybe not
8 better, but more interested footage for the public.
9 JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, please continue.
11 MR. THAYER: Okay. Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Let's roll.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 MR. THAYER: I'm just going to skip a head, save about a minute
15 or so, to 27:12. And if we could roll just a couple more frames.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 MR. THAYER: Okay. We're at 27 minutes 14.7 seconds of the
18 Petrovic video.
19 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what -- where we are? We can see
20 the letters "UN" on this building. What is this location?
21 A. We are entering Srebrenica. This building was -- I believe it
22 was used by UN at that time.
23 Q. Okay. And do you know which -- which company of the DutchBat
24 used this compound here?
25 A. Yeah, this is the building used by UN near the Dutch Company
1 Bravo, located in Srebrenica.
2 Q. Okay. So Bravo Company.
3 A. Bravo Company, yes, but opposite road of the Bravo Company.
4 MR. THAYER: Okay. Let's just keep going for about another 10
5 seconds or so.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 MR. THAYER: We're at 27 minutes 24.9 seconds.
8 Q. Can you tell us where we are and who these men are who are
9 shaking hands?
10 A. We're in Srebrenica, very close to the municipality building in
11 Srebrenica. On the left-hand side, this is the police station, at that
12 time the police station established by the Serbs. And on this picture,
13 we see the deputy minister of the interior of Republika Srpska on the
14 right-hand side, this is Mr. Tomo Kovac. And on the left-hand side,
15 I think this policeman is called Gavric. He became kind of the head or
16 responsible for this police station, he reporting to Mr. Kovac.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Nyambe, please.
18 JUDGE NYAMBE: On the footage on the screen now, we have Mr. Tomo
19 Kovac saying:
20 "You didn't cover properly ... you didn't cover properly."
21 What do you suppose he is referring to? If you don't know, it's
22 all right.
23 THE WITNESS: This is my assumption, Your Honour, and according
24 to my knowledge of the situation over there. They wanted to establish
25 the police station in Srebrenica as soon as possible because the people
1 were coming after liberation or falling of Srebrenica, they were
2 coming -- the people, the civilians, were coming to Srebrenica, and a lot
3 of -- they grabbed a lot of things, you know, from Srebrenica, houses
4 over there. They wanted to protect the public order over there.
5 MR. THAYER: Okay. Let's keep going, unless -- I'm sorry,
6 Your Honour, I didn't realise you had another question.
7 JUDGE NYAMBE: In relation to the Kravica executions, when is
9 THE WITNESS: This is -- in relation to Kravica execution, this
10 is in the following day, on the 14 of July, 1995; a day later.
11 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer.
13 MR. THAYER: Okay. Let's just keep rolling the video. We'll see
14 a sign in just a moment, and we'll freeze on the sign.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 MR. THAYER: Okay.
17 Q. And what is this sign, sir?
18 A. This is "Republika Srpska, Centar." "[Indiscernible]
19 Srebrenica." It's written here in Cyrillic. It's the police station in
21 Q. And based on your knowledge of the events, how long had this sign
22 been up?
23 A. Since the Srebrenica was liberated. It means since 11, when the
24 Muslims left Srebrenica and then the Serbian Army and police arrived to
25 Srebrenica. It could be 11, could be 12.
1 MR. THAYER: Okay. Let's turn to page 64 and 65 in the road
3 I think it's pretty self-explanatory, what we have here. Unless
4 Your Honours have any questions about what Mr. Blaszczyk has put together
5 on these pages, we'll just keep moving.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You have just explained this inscription, Police
7 Station of Republika Srpska, Srebrenica. Can you see that building here
8 in these -- in your road book, page 64, 65?
9 THE WITNESS: No, it's not visible here, sir.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
11 THE WITNESS: This is about a few hundred metres from the
12 department store, Srebrencanka, heading towards Bratunac.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
14 Mr. Thayer.
15 MR. THAYER: Okay. Let's skip about 10 minutes or so to 37
16 minutes 38 seconds in the original timing. That would be 37 minutes 42
17 seconds in Sanction.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It means back to the video.
19 MR. THAYER: Okay, we're right here at 37 minutes 42 seconds, and
20 we can roll it, please. Thanks.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 MR. THAYER:
23 Q. Now, the Trial Chamber has previously seen footage of a single
24 body in the middle of the street in Srebrenica, and we can see here three
25 bodies next to each other. Can you tell us anything about these three
1 bodies, based on your investigation?
2 A. These three bodies are also in the center of Srebrenica, not far
3 from -- in fact, in the center in Srebrenica. This footage was recorded
4 by Mr. Petrovic on the 14 July 1995. But Mr. Thayer referred to -- the
5 footage from when we see the single body was referring to the footage
6 from 12 July 1995. I think this footage was recorded by a member of the
7 Information Centre of the Republika Srpska. And if we go back a bit from
8 this image, if we go to see the first body -- could we go -- could you --
9 MR. THAYER: We've stopped at 37 minutes 42.9 seconds.
10 THE WITNESS: This also maybe is not the best picture. But if
11 you compare the body here, the blue jeans, the jacket, and the hair of
12 the body, you could see that this is the same person or looks very
13 similar as the person which body we see on the 12 July 1995 in the center
14 of Srebrenica. I don't know, Your Honour, if you remember that when we
15 were in Srebrenica I pointed out this place for you, where the body is
16 lying there. This is -- for me, it's the same man. Of course, I cannot
17 confirm for 200 per cent, but it's having the same shape, having the same
18 jacket, having the same hair.
19 MR. THAYER: Okay. Let's skip ahead about a minute to 38 minutes
20 37 seconds. And here we are -- we see a red car approaching.
21 If we could play this for about a minute, a little over a minute,
22 to 38 minutes 44 seconds, please.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 MR. THAYER: We've stopped at 38 minutes 50.5 seconds.
25 Q. I'm not sure if the Trial Chamber has heard testimony about this
1 subject, but we see this -- somebody in the car putting up a
2 three-fingered hand gesture. Based on your knowledge of this area and
3 the customs and cultures, does that have any significance, this
4 three-fingered gesture?
5 A. Yes, this is sign for the victorious. We are using two fingers,
6 for example, in my country, and the Serbs are using three fingers.
7 MR. THAYER: Let's skip ahead to 39 minutes 31 seconds.
8 And here we are at that time, and let's watch about a minute of
9 the video. And if you would, pay attention to the patch on the left arm
10 of the soldier in the middle of these three men walking down the street.
11 [Video-clip played]
12 MR. THAYER: We've just stopped at 39 minutes 43.3 seconds.
13 Q. Sir, based on your familiarity with the various units that were
14 operating in the area and your review of this video, have you been able
15 to identify what that patch is on the left arm of the man in the middle?
16 A. Yes, it's very visible, and even in this kind of quality footage,
17 that this is the patch of Drina Wolves unit.
18 Q. And what is the prominent feature on the patch of the Drina
19 Wolves unit? And we can get a photograph of such a patch for Your
20 Honours when the time comes, but just describe what it is.
21 A. It is kind of picture of the wolf, you know, howling.
22 Q. A howling wolf?
23 A. Yes, howling wolf.
24 MR. THAYER: Okay. Let's continue for another several seconds.
25 [Video-clip played]
1 MR. THAYER: We've stopped at 39 minutes 54 seconds.
2 Q. First of all, where are we?
3 A. We are in the center of Srebrenica.
4 Q. And looking at this man in the center of these three men, the
5 middle man here, we can see that there's a light blue object with some
6 kind of badge or something on it that's folded into his belt. Do you
7 have any idea what that is?
8 A. Yeah, this is blue beret used by UN forces.
9 MR. THAYER: Let's go forward a few more seconds.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 MR. THAYER: Okay. We see a time and date stamp. We're at 41
12 minutes 6.5 seconds, and we see a time and date stamp of 14 July 1995 at
13 14:03 hours 36 seconds. The Trial Chamber, I think, has already heard
14 testimony from Mr. Ruez, and it's in his book, about what happened to the
15 mosque in Srebrenica. That was on the 30th of March, 2010. So we don't
16 need to go into that any further.
17 Q. One final question about what we just saw. As those three men
18 were departing, we saw that tall one, who had the UN beret that you
19 described tucked in his belt, throw up that three-fingered salute again
20 as they left. Is that three-fingered salute something that a Bosnian
21 Muslim would have signaled to a fellow Bosnian Muslim?
22 A. No, they use two fingers. The Bosnians, they use two fingers.
23 MR. THAYER: So let's go to pages 66 and 67.
24 Q. My first question is: Is this the same mosque we just saw on the
25 video, this mosque shown in Still A?
1 A. Yes, the same mosque.
2 Q. Okay. And what is depicted in Still B? Where are we in that
3 still, and what did you want to show here in Still B in comparison with
4 your Photograph B on page 67?
5 A. This is center of the Srebrenica. Your Honour, I don't know
6 whether you -- you watched a few of the trial video already, and we saw
7 that through the street, General Mladic was walking down. And I located
8 this street, and it is located on my picture on -- on the second picture
9 from page 67.
10 Q. Okay. And when you say this is where General Mladic was walking
11 down the street, that's on the 11th of July?
12 A. Yes, I am referring to the 11 of July, 1995.
13 MR. THAYER: The Trial Chamber is already familiar with that
14 footage and has seen that footage already. Okay.
15 Now, that concludes the Srebrenica chapter of the road book.
16 If we can turn the page to pages 68 and 69, just a couple of
17 quick questions about the road book and a couple of questions about some
18 locations that are on the video that didn't make it into the road book.
19 Q. You've got a map here on page 69 showing Zeleni Jadar lying on
20 this east-west road we've heard so much about. Was there an important UN
21 OP in the area of Zeleni Jadar? And if so, which one was it?
22 A. Yes, there is, there is important check-point of Dutch UNPROFOR
23 in Zeleni Jadar, just in the junction, very close to this yellow dot
24 here. I think this is Charlie, Charlie Check-point. This is check-point
25 at -- this is kind of the border between enclave and other territory.
1 When we are entering the enclave from Zeleni Jadar, we have to pass this
2 check-point. In the check-point is visible also the Petrovic video a
3 little bit. But when we were, Your Honour, on the site visit,
4 unfortunately, there is not much visible anymore, but we were on this
5 junction also. From this junction down, we see the factory, and we
6 passed very quickly, but there's some bus are probably still down there.
7 Q. And the Trial Chamber has also heard a number of references to OP
8 Echo. Can you tell the Trial Chamber where OP Echo is? You've just
9 referred to an OP Charlie or a Check-point Charlie. You may have had a
10 flashback to Berlin, but I just wanted to find out what we're talking
11 about here, Mr. Blaszczyk.
12 A. No, I didn't mean Berlin, but this is OP Echo for sure, not
14 MR. THAYER: So we're talking about OP Echo down here in
15 Zeleni Jadar, and we can see that this is to the south of Srebrenica.
16 Let's pick up at 42:25, and we'll just -- we'll run it here from
17 42:25 for about seven seconds.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 MR. THAYER: We've stopped at 42 minutes 35.6 seconds.
20 Q. Where are we, where are we headed, and can you tell us what we
21 see in this frame on the outside of the right-hand passenger side of this
23 A. We are coming to Zeleni Jadar right now. On the right hand, we
24 see Check-point Echo, Dutch Check-point Echo. And when we pass the
25 check-point and down, you could see the part of the factory in
1 Zeleni Jadar.
2 Q. Okay. And are we still talking about the same people in the car,
3 Mr. Borovcanin and Mr. Petrovic Pirocanac?
4 A. Yes, we are talking about the same people. They are driving in
5 the same car.
6 MR. THAYER: Okay. Let's keep playing just for a couple more
8 [Video-clip played]
9 MR. THAYER: We've stopped at 43 minutes 58 seconds.
10 And if we turn to pages 70 and 71, I think it's pretty
11 self-explanatory, what you've shown us here, Mr. Blaszczyk, in terms of
12 the locations.
13 Q. Can you identify who the individuals are in Video Still B on
14 page 70?
15 A. Yes. We are in Zeleni Jadar on the 14 July 1995, and in the
16 Picture B from the page 70, on the Still B on the page 70, in front of us
17 the first man is Tomo Kovac, the deputy minister of the interior of RS.
18 The man following him is Mr. Dragomir Vasic. He's head of CJB in
19 Zvornik. And the third one is Ljubisa Borovcanin, deputy commander of
20 the Special Police Brigade.
21 MR. THAYER: Okay. Mr. President, I only have a handful of
22 questions left. We have just a little bit more footage on this chapter
23 and then, I think, almost no questions on the last chapter, and then I'll
24 be done.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
1 We must have our second break now. We will resume at 1.00.
2 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, I take it that you will finish the
5 examination quite soon, as you indicated.
6 MR. THAYER: Yes, Mr. President, we are reaching the end of the
7 road, as it were.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: But if I recall correctly, you indicated, before
9 the first break, one hour. Now we are approaching the second hour. We
10 are in the middle of the second hour.
11 MR. THAYER: Yes, Your Honour. I exceeded my initial estimate by
12 a full half an hour.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In fact, you indicated at the beginning of the
14 OTP, that you needed three hours. Now you have used 6 hours and 25
15 minutes, just to have it on the record.
16 Please go ahead.
17 MR. THAYER: Thank you. Thank you for that, Mr. President.
18 We're going to just play a couple of sections here. We're at 46
19 minutes 26.7 seconds, and if we could just roll the video and ask you a
20 question about something we're going to see in just a second.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 MR. THAYER: We've stopped at 46 minutes 29.4 seconds.
23 Q. Can you identify what this structure is?
24 A. Yes. This is part of Check-point Echo.
25 Q. Okay. And, again, when you use the term "check-point," are you
1 referring to an observation post?
2 A. Yes, I am referring to observation post -- UN observation post --
3 DutchBat observation post near Zeleni Jadar.
4 MR. THAYER: Okay. That concludes the Zeleni Jadar chapter.
5 Let's fast-forward a couple of minutes to 48 minutes and 14 seconds in
6 Sanction, and roll from here, please. Thank you.
7 [Video-clip played]
8 MR. THAYER: We've stopped a few seconds later, at 48 minutes 25
10 Q. Can you just give the Trial Chamber an idea now, at this point,
11 where are Mr. Borovcanin and Mr. Petrovic located and where are they
13 A. They are driving from Zeleni Jadar to Srebrenica, which is a part
14 of the Srebrenica -- they are just now a little bit above Srebrenica on
15 the road getting us from Zeleni Jadar to Srebrenica.
16 MR. THAYER: Okay. And if we can skip ahead to 56 minutes 54
17 seconds in Sanction, please.
18 And here we are. We can start from 56 minutes 54 seconds.
19 [Video-clip played]
20 MR. THAYER: Okay. We've stopped at 57 minutes and 9.6 seconds
21 in Sanction.
22 If we could turn to page 72 for the last chapter, 5, the mosque,
23 Azemina. We can see on page 73 your map indicating the location.
24 So we can see, from this map, we are north of Srebrenica at this
25 point. And if we turn to pages 74 and 75, we can see Video Still B on
1 page 74 is what we have here on the screen now.
2 Q. Can you tell us what your photograph -- your two photographs on
3 page 75 depict?
4 A. We are now in Vidikovac settlement. We are passing Srebrenica --
5 we passed Srebrenica. We passed the soccer field in Srebrenica. We are
6 just in Vidikovac settlement. I depicted, in these two photos from the
7 page 75, the mosque. In fact, it's visible, destroyed mosque here,
8 mosque called Azemina. Why I put this mosque in this road book, I did it
9 because -- I don't know whether you remember when Mr. Pirocanac and --
10 Petrovic and Borovcanin were driving towards Srebrenica on the 14 of
11 July, there was a discussion also about a mosque also, they were
12 discussing this particular mosque. This is quite famous mosque in
13 Srebrenica. It was first mosque founded by private person.
14 MR. THAYER: Okay. And the Trial Chamber, again, has heard some
15 testimony, I think, from Mr. Ruez about what happened to the mosque or
16 mosques in Srebrenica.
17 If we can turn the page and go to 76 and 77.
18 Q. And just tell us what you have here.
19 A. On these two pages, 76 and 77, I just -- I made some picture of
20 this mosque, in the shape how it was in 2006.
21 MR. THAYER: Okay.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I take you back to page 74, to the Still B.
23 We have there the mosque with the minaret which is still intact,
24 but it appears that the building of the mosque is not intact already at
25 that time. Is that correct? Have you any knowledge about that?
1 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's correct, Your Honour. It's correct,
2 Your Honour. I talked to the owner of the house next to the mosque, and
3 he is a son of the founder of this mosque. He told that the mosque was
4 first destroyed, I believe, in 1995, the roof, and the minaret later on,
5 after July 1995.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
7 Mr. Thayer.
8 MR. THAYER: Okay. That concludes the final chapter in the road
9 book. I just have a couple more questions for you, Mr. Blaszczyk, about
10 the remainder of the video, some locations which didn't make it into the
11 road book.
12 May we start playing from 58 minutes and 37 seconds on Sanction,
13 please, and then we're going to stop just a couple of seconds later,
15 Okay. And we've started at 58 minutes 37 seconds. If we could
16 just play it to 58 minutes 40 seconds.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 MR. THAYER: And we've stopped at 58 minutes 40 seconds.
19 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber where we are here, where
20 Mr. Borovcanin and Mr. Petrovic Pirocanac are in their car?
21 A. Driving from Srebrenica towards Bratunac, and we are passing --
22 we are passing Potocari. On the left-hand side, we see -- I think this
23 is Energoinvest company, and the following building, this is Zin [phoen]
24 company in Potocari on the left side of the road.
25 MR. THAYER: And you identified those locations from some of the
1 aerials yesterday, I think.
2 Now, let's play a few more seconds to 58 minutes 52 seconds.
3 [Video-clip played]
4 MR. THAYER:
5 Q. What do we have here?
6 A. The same -- we are in the same area in Potocari I indicated
8 MR. THAYER: Okay. Let's keep playing for a couple more seconds.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 MR. THAYER: And we've stopped at 59 seconds -- 59 minutes 12
12 Q. In this segment we just played, we saw a huge amount of luggage
13 and baggage and then some buildings on the right. Again, could you just
14 orient us where we are here?
15 A. We just passed the federal building. We just passed the blue
16 building on the left-hand -- on the left side of the road, but we didn't
17 see this building in this footage, but partially we saw the federal
18 building and the blue company on the right side of the road just a second
19 ago, and we are in front of the white house, and in front of the smaller
20 road leading us to the UN Dutch base.
21 MR. THAYER: Okay. We don't need to play any more of the video.
22 But when the Chamber plays the Petrovic video to the very end, there will
23 be a couple of minutes showing some hills and some farmland and so on and
24 so forth.
25 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber what that is footage of?
1 A. According to Mr. Pirocanac, this is footage recorded by him when
2 he left -- when he left Bosnia-Herzegovina on this day, 14 of July 1995,
3 and this is the footage of the part of the land in Serbia already.
4 Q. Okay. And my last question for you, sir, is: Going back to the
5 example of the Studio B version that you spoke about before, particularly
6 the portion of the Studio B version where we saw some of the footage that
7 was recorded on the 14th of July, when we see the man leading his horse,
8 and Borovcanin and Petrovic talk to him through the car window, when we
9 have that footage followed by footage from the 13th of July out of
10 sequence, and I asked you a question about how that happened, you told us
11 that that happened -- that was done by Studio B, that they got it out of
12 order. Can you tell the Trial Chamber, did Mr. Petrovic Pirocanac play
13 any role in that chopping up of the video with the Studio B personnel?
14 A. Yes, he did. As the man who -- as the journalist who made this
15 material, he -- of course, he played quite a significant role to edit
16 this material for the future broadcast.
17 Q. Okay. And did he do that independently or did he do that
18 alongside or with anybody from Studio B?
19 A. As far as I remember from his statement and from his testimony,
20 he did it together with editor from Studio B.
21 MR. THAYER: Okay. That concludes my examination-in-chief,
22 Mr. President.
23 We have a couple of exhibits to tender that were on our exhibit
24 list. The first is 65 ter 1379. That is the BBC version of the Petrovic
25 video you heard Mr. Blaszczyk talk about and how it was better quality,
1 in some respects, and was used to help with some of the transcripts
2 because of its better quality. So we would tender that at this time.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1346, Your Honours.
5 MR. THAYER: Additionally, the Prosecution would tender 65 ter
6 2176, which are the transcripts for the video which we have been watching
7 these last couple of days, the Petrovic video itself.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received too.
9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1347, Your Honours.
10 MR. THAYER: And we also have 65 ter 2181, which is a copy of
11 the -- another copy of the Petrovic video that was obtained from the BiH
12 Ministry of Defence that Mr. Blaszczyk talked about obtaining and then
13 the OTP reviewing. We would tender that as well.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, this one as well.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1348, Your Honours.
16 MR. THAYER: And, finally, the Prosecution would tender 65 ter
17 1413, which is the video, itself, the copy that the OTP made of
18 Mr. Petrovic's eight-millimetre tape that he furnished to us during the
19 interview in February 2006, V000-6747.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received as well.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1349, Your Honours.
22 MR. THAYER: Again, I thank the Court for its patience during
23 this much longer examination than predicted.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you, Mr. Thayer. We have to discuss the
25 length of examination-in-chief in future.
1 Mr. Tolimir, your cross-examination. Please commence your
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
4 I wish to greet everyone present. May there be peace in this
5 house, and may the outcome be as God wishes and not as I wish.
6 We thank Mr. Thayer and Mr. Blaszczyk on the presentation of
7 stills from the footage, which we have had the occasion to see, and their
8 presentation. The Defence has no question about the stills, as the
9 Defence asked Ms. Gallagher questions about the footage on the occasion
10 of her testimony, when the footage was also presented. The Defence
11 believes that it is not necessary to waste any further time. Thank you.
12 Thank you, Mr. President, and thank you to everyone else in the
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir.
15 Do I understand you correctly, that you have no cross-examination
16 for this witness related to the road book and to the video we have seen
17 related to this road book?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's right, Mr. President. We
19 have no questions because we asked the questions while we were watching
20 the footage which was shown during Ms. Gallagher's testimony.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
22 Mr. Blaszczyk, you will be pleased to hear that this concludes
23 this part of your examination. I think there are still some remaining
24 parts in cross-examination, but you will be called again at a later
25 stage. But for now, related to this part of your examination, you are
1 free to return to your normal activities. Thank you very much that you
2 were able to provide us with your knowledge.
3 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours.
4 [The witness withdrew]
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, what's the situation?
6 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, Mr. Vanderpuye has been monitoring
7 the situation. I think he's on his way down with Ms. Gallagher as we
8 speak, and he has been prepared to go today, as is Ms. Gallagher.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Indeed, we should use every
10 minute in court.
11 MR. THAYER: In the meantime, Mr. President, that concludes my
12 business before the Trial Chamber. May I be excused for the rest of the
13 proceedings and leave you in the hands of Ms. Stewart?
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Only for the rest of the proceedings of today.
15 MR. THAYER: Yes.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We hope to see you again at another day.
17 MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.
19 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Mr. President, I
20 apologise. On page 78, line 7, you mentioned the remaining parts of the
21 cross-examination in connection with the testimony of Mr. Blaszczyk. We
22 have a part of cross-examination remaining in connection with Mr. Janc,
23 but as far as I know, we have nothing left remaining in connection with
24 Mr. Blaszczyk.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You see, Mr. Gajic, I'm confused sometimes
1 because we never know which investigator has finished which part of his
2 examination, so we have to check that. Thank you very much for your
4 Good afternoon, Mr. Vanderpuye. It's already afternoon, yes.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: Good afternoon, Mr. President. Good afternoon,
6 Your Honours. Good afternoon to everyone.
7 I understand that we've come to an abrupt stoppage in
8 Mr. Blaszczyk's testimony, in the advent that there was no
9 cross-examination, so I am prepared to proceed with Ms. Gallagher, who
10 I think is in the witness room and prepared to go.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
12 The witness should be brought in, please.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon, Ms. Gallagher. Please sit down.
15 I have to remind you that the affirmation to tell the truth you
16 made at the beginning of your testimony still applies.
17 WITNESS: ERIN GALLAGHER [Resumed]
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Chamber was discussing the question if we are
19 still in examination-in-chief or already in cross. We are a little bit
20 lost. Perhaps the parties can help us.
21 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 With respect to this witness, as with previous investigator
23 witnesses of the Office of the Prosecutor, we've had them testify in
24 discrete sections in order to accommodate, certainly, irregularities in
25 the scheduling and certain opportunities to present evidence as the
1 schedule permits, and so we are, at this stage, beginning a direct
2 examination on a very discrete area, which will be the photo
3 identification of Bosnian Muslims that are featured in some of the video
4 footage that comprises the trial video. And the purpose of this is,
5 essentially, to establish the identities of these individuals and their
6 disposition; that is, their status either as missing, or survivors, or as
7 having been -- having been killed. And I think that will assist the
8 Trial Chamber also to understand, basically, the process concerning the
9 forced removal of the population, in terms of separations and in terms of
10 what happens to some of those individuals, in addition to the survivor
11 testimony the Trial Chamber has already heard so far.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you for that explanation.
13 I take it that the previous sector of her testimony was already
14 in cross-examination. I think that is correct. We had that on the 29th
15 of October, 2010.
16 Mr. Vanderpuye, can you give us an estimation about the length of
17 the examination-in-chief?
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think, Mr. President, that I will not conclude
19 the examination-in-chief today. I estimate that it would be about --
20 I think a little bit more an hour, hour and a half, to conclude it.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
22 Please go ahead.
23 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right.
24 Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye: [Continued]
25 Q. Good afternoon to you, Ms. Gallagher, and welcome back.
1 As I mentioned, I wanted to lead your examination as concerns
2 this Bosnian Muslim photo identification project, and first I'd like to
3 ask you: Having been assigned to the investigation of the events
4 concerning Srebrenica, and, in particular, in relation to this case, can
5 you tell us a little bit about this Bosnian Muslim photo identification
6 project? Perhaps you can tell us how you and when you became involved in
7 this project.
8 A. I initially became involved in the project on the -- in the
9 Popovic trial about two years ago, or I'd say in 2007. And at that time
10 the book had already been made in 2003, and my participation was,
11 actually, to review it, update it, make sure it was accurate, make any
12 corrections, primarily towards to the status of the men and women that
13 are identified in the stills and in the book. So that was briefly at
14 that time, and it was entered in the trial not with my -- not through my
15 testimony but as stipulated back in, I think it was, 2007. And so at
16 that time, my involvement in the book ended. And then only recently,
17 basically a few days ago, to review the book again, make sure that, once
18 again, it was accurate, and to look to see if there was anything that
19 needed to be updated, since we had new information from the ICMP in their
20 recent list.
21 Q. And can you tell us, in very general terms, what the initial
22 objective of this identification project was, I would say, either
23 contemporaneously with the development of the book or prior to the
24 development of the book in the first instance?
25 A. Well, initially, you'll see that it started in 1996, when --
1 immediately when refugees were gathered in Tuzla from Srebrenica, and
2 they were just trying to identify who was missing. So you'll see from
3 the testimony of Pasaga Mesic, he explains taking photographs that were
4 stills taken from these videos that we've used for the stills book and
5 showing two refugees and trying to identify who they were. And
6 subsequently, the ICTY then also continued the same path of trying to
7 find out who also was missing, and more of where they were missing from,
8 and by that time where remains were found from mass graves. So there was
9 more investigation done by that time, the year 2000, by the ICTY.
10 Q. In terms of your objective to identify and update the status of
11 the individuals that are depicted in the book. Can you tell us, did you
12 rely on any particular documents, or what sources of information, I
13 should ask more generally, did you rely on in order to do that?
14 A. I looked at, as you'll see, the statements of those that I
15 initially identified, the photographs of the missing men, and there's one
16 woman -- missing men and woman in the book. So I've read the statements,
17 reviewed those, and also have looked at the ICRC missing list to make
18 sure people are on the missing list, as well as the ICMP data, which
19 indicated where -- when someone was identified and what grave-site they
20 were identified at. And then I also corroborated, where I could, by
21 looking at autopsy reports and some photographs from the exhumations or
22 from the autopsies.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Taking into account that the witness is speaking
24 very fast, and you are using the same language, please slow down a bit
25 and pause between question and answer, because the interpreters will
1 not -- will have many problems.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Q. Now, Ms. Gallagher, you referred to certain statements that you
4 reviewed in order to corroborate prior identifications or identifications
5 of the individuals that are depicted in the book. Could you just briefly
6 tell us what the sources of those statements were? That is, apart from
7 the individuals that gave the statements, were they attributable to any
8 particular agency or body? If you could just tell us a little bit about
10 A. You'll see the statements coming from two different time-periods
11 and two different sources. The first source was in 1996 by the Tuzla
12 AID. Basically, the Tuzla police had obtained statements at that time,
13 and those are very short ones, where they showed photographs and people
14 identified the people from the photographs.
15 The second source were interviews that the OTP made in 2000, June
16 2000. One of the investigators, Dean Manning, had done many of those
17 interviews at that time. So mainly those two different time-periods and
19 Q. You made a reference to the Tuzla AID, and would that be the
20 Agency for Investigation and Documentation?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. And are those the statements that are -- well, these are the
23 statements from 1996?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. Okay. What I'd like to show you is 65 ter 2183.
1 All right. I think you have it on your screen now,
2 Ms. Gallagher. While the title is pretty self-evident, it reads "Amended
3 Bosnian Muslim Photo Identification Book." Do you recognise that?
4 A. I do.
5 MR. VANDERPUYE: For the information of the Court, this is a
6 document that was prepared, as you can see, in relation to the Popovic
7 case. What we propose to do is to present this Trial Chamber with an
8 updated book containing the information that Investigator Gallagher will
9 testify to. And I will lead that evidence just now so you will
10 understand what I'm trying to do. This document, for these purposes now,
11 is just a demonstrative exhibit to help the Trial Chamber understand what
12 the project is and how it has developed until now. It's an ongoing
14 So I'll just continue with Ms. Gallagher, and I'll hopefully
15 clear that up a little bit for you.
16 Q. Now, Ms. Gallagher, were you involved in creating this particular
17 iteration of the book?
18 A. I was involved in this amended version; not the original version,
19 but this -- I think it's the second version of the photo identification
21 Q. And can you tell us, in very general terms, how this book is laid
22 out? What does it contain and what does it show?
23 A. Initially, there's an index of all the people that have been
24 identified in the book. Then it's split into photographs of those
25 individuals that are listed at that time as missing. And it would be
1 photographs -- it will be their names and a little bit of information as
2 to how they were identified, and by who, and when, and the video that
3 they were taken from. And then the next section is the section on
4 survivors that have been identified. And then following that is the
5 testimony of Mr. Pasaga Mesic. He was the chief of police in Tuzla who
6 did the initial investigation and showing photographs to refugees and
7 identifying people. It was a Rule 61 hearing that he testified in back
8 in 1996. Then there's a second section attached to his testimony, which
9 are the photographs that he used to show to people for the
10 identifications. And then there is another supplemental amendment to
11 that which are additional photographs that were not a part of his
12 testimony but were used. And then I believe there are -- there's a
13 letter, it's correspondence between Bosnia and the ICTY of those
14 individuals that were potentially available to be identified -- excuse
15 me, to be interviewed by the OTP. And then more correspondence in 2002
16 about other individuals.
17 Q. All right. And we'll get to each of these sections as we go
18 through the book. But, principally, how many photographs of individuals
19 are we talking about here that we've -- that the investigation has sought
20 to identify?
21 A. There are 31 individuals, 31 photographs, that are identified in
22 the book.
23 Q. And the sources of the photographs themselves you've indicated
24 come from certain video footage. Can you tell us what footage these
25 photos come from? And we'll deal with them specifically when we go
1 through the photos, but generally.
2 A. They come from just two video sources. One of them is the
3 Petrovic video, which you've seen, and that is the majority of the
4 photographs. So those come from July 13th, from his footage on that day.
5 And then there are a number of photographs that come from July 12th, when
6 they filmed in Potocari, and that's in some of the footage that you saw
7 in the trial video, and that was footage we had gotten from the BBC.
8 Q. Now, with respect to the information that was relied upon in
9 order to identify these individuals, were you able to compare the
10 statements that were given -- the identifying statements that were given
11 against photographs or other documents pointing to the identity of the
12 individuals, as compared to the photographs that are depicted in the
14 A. Correct, I've read all the statements that had been given, both
15 in 1996 and 2000, and those are actually listed in indexes that are in
16 the back of the book as well, and making sure that, you know, the correct
17 photograph, the correct person, was identified.
18 MR. VANDERPUYE: I'd like to show you, I think it should be
19 page 2 or 3 in e-court.
20 All right, let's start with this one. This is okay.
21 Q. This, we have an index of the individuals identified. Were you
22 involved in putting this together?
23 A. I believe two years ago, I may have made this index.
24 Q. All right. And for each of these individuals, were you able to
25 examine any statements or other indicia of identification?
1 A. Correct. I read the statements of those that identified these 31
3 Q. Are there, in fact, statements for all of them, all of the
4 missing individuals? Let's start with them.
5 A. Yes, there are statements for all of them.
6 Q. And are there also statements for the survivors that are
7 indicated here?
8 A. Not in the form of -- there's several of the survivors. Whether
9 or not statements from what we received as correspondence from Bosnia,
10 explaining that they had been found, they were alive, living in a certain
11 location, maybe a little bit more sometimes, but it's not a full
13 Q. And just so that we're clear, and as I mentioned, this is only
14 demonstrative, but the eventual book will look just like this, the index
15 of individuals identified here, you see individuals identified by "S" and
16 individuals identified by "M." Can you tell us what is intended to
18 A. The "M" means "Missing." The "S" means "Survivor."
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. We'll now go to page 5 in e-court,
21 And if we could just -- and we can see here this is Part 1, and
22 this will contain information concerning individuals identified as
24 If we could go to the next page, please.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, I think you are now approaching
1 another part of the testimony. We have now reached the time for the
2 break for today. Perhaps your last question related to this document, or
3 will you continue on Monday?
4 MR. VANDERPUYE: I can continue on Monday. I'll just leave with
5 that page. I think it's a good point to break. Thank you,
6 Mr. President.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
8 We have to adjourn for the day. Ms. Gallagher, you have to
9 continue your examination-in-chief on Monday. Please be reminded now, no
10 contact with either party about the content of your testimony.
11 We adjourn, and resume on Monday, in the afternoon, at 2.15 in
12 this courtroom.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,
15 to be reconvened on Monday, the 15th day of
16 November, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.