Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7854

 1                           Monday, 22 November 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon to everybody in the courtroom.

 6     The next witness should be brought in, please.

 7             MR. THAYER:  If I may, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, good afternoon.

 9             MR. THAYER:  Good afternoon to you and Your Honours.  Good

10     afternoon to the Defence.  Good afternoon, everyone.  Your Honour, I just

11     wanted to alert the Trial Chamber and the Defence to a development with

12     respect to Mr. Haglund.  I can do that perhaps at the end of the

13     witness's testimony.  It pertains to his availability next week.

14                           [The witness entered court]

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, or at the beginning of the next session.

16             Good afternoon, sir.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Welcome to the Tribunal.  Would you please read

19     aloud the affirmation on the card which is shown to you now.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

21     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, for the Prosecution, is examining you

25     now.  Mr. Thayer.

Page 7855

 1             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2                           WITNESS:  OSMAN SALKIC

 3                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4                           Examination by Mr. Thayer:

 5        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

 6        A.   Good afternoon.

 7        Q.   Would you please state your name for the record.

 8        A.   Osman Salkic.

 9        Q.   Sir, I want to show you a document.

10             MR. THAYER:  It's P01373.  It will appear shortly on the computer

11     screen in front of you.  And if we could have the original version.  What

12     we are seeing now is actually what has been uploaded as the translation.

13     If we could have what's in e-court as the original, please.  It's the

14     92 bis package.  Perfect.  Thank you.  And if we could go to page 4 of

15     this document.  There.

16        Q.   Sir, do you see in front of you a copy in your own language of a

17     witness statement you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor on the 4th of

18     December, 2004?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Okay.  Do you recall providing that witness statement to

21     Investigator Garry Selsky on that date?

22        A.   Of course.

23        Q.   We see here a signature on the lower right-hand corner.  Can you

24     identify whose signature that is under the date of 26 January 2007?

25        A.   It is my signature, that of Osman Salkic.

Page 7856

 1        Q.   Okay.  Do you recall meeting with representatives of the ICTY on

 2     that date in 2007 to certify this 2004 witness statement so that it could

 3     be used in court without having you need to come here to testify?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Okay.  And did you have an opportunity to recently read your 2004

 6     witness statement?

 7        A.   Yes, I did.

 8        Q.   And can you attest before this Trial Chamber that that 2004

 9     witness statement accurately reflects what you told the investigators at

10     that time?

11        A.   Of course.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could we please have the English version on the

13     screen as well.

14             MR. THAYER:  Certainly, Your Honour.  We'll just need to go to

15     the translation.  What we've done, Mr. President, is uploaded as the

16     original statement the B/C/S version, which the witness signed in 2007,

17     and as the English translation we've simply uploaded the actual witness

18     statement as it was taken in 2004, which the witness also signed, but

19     that was the English original version back then.

20        Q.   Now, sir, can you attest that if you were asked the same

21     questions today that you were asked back in 2004, would your answers be

22     the same?

23        A.   Of course they would.  I stand by everything I said then.

24        Q.   Okay.

25             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, the Prosecution would tender P01373.

Page 7857

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received with this number.

 2             MR. THAYER:

 3        Q.   And, sir, just by way of background, did you also testify in

 4     Belgrade in the state court there in connection with the Prosecution of

 5     several members of the Skorpions Unit?

 6        A.   I did.

 7        Q.   And that testimony was in approximately 2006 and 2007.  Do I have

 8     that right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Okay.

11             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I'd like to read a very brief 92 ter

12     summary for Mr. Salkic.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, please go ahead.

14             MR. THAYER:  The witness was born in Fojhari, two kilometres from

15     Srebrenica, and during the war lived in Joseva, a village that overlooked

16     Srebrenica.

17             The witness was a member of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

18     served as a military policeman owing to his previous experience in the

19     JNA as an MP.  He was present in Srebrenica when General Morillon came in

20     1993.  After Srebrenica was declared a safe area, the Army of Bosnia and

21     Herzegovina was still organised but it was not really active.  He no

22     longer served as an active MP and stayed around the house to try to take

23     care of his family.

24             The witness described the attack on Srebrenica that began on 6

25     July 1995, and the decision on 11 July that the women would go to

Page 7858

 1     Potocari and that the men would walk north.  He further described his

 2     experiences as part of the column that formed during the night of 11 July

 3     and set out from Susnjari.  He was with his father and brother-in-law,

 4     Azmir Alispahic, who was 16 years old at the time.  They were ambushed at

 5     Buljim and at Kamenica.  He last saw Azmir near the road they were trying

 6     to cross.  The witness reached the Muslim-held area near Nezuk.  And he

 7     also identified Azmir in five photographs shown to him by the OTP.

 8        Q.   Now, sir, the Trial Chamber has your 2004 witness statement as

 9     the basis of your testimony.  That was just a summary of some of the main

10     points.  I'd like to ask you a couple of follow-up questions to gain a

11     little bit more detail about your experiences.  When the war began, sir,

12     where -- or beg your pardon, with whom exactly were you living?

13        A.   I lived with my parents, my wife, my daughter, and my sister, who

14     was 18 or 19 at the time.  She was with us in the house.

15        Q.   And just to orient the Trial Chamber a little bit, we don't need

16     to pull out a map, but can you tell the Trial Chamber approximately where

17     the village or the settlement in which you were living during the war was

18     located?  And let's say, for example, can you tell the Trial Chamber

19     where in relation to the village of Bajramovici was your village or your

20     settlement?

21        A.   Joseva was closer than Bajramovici.  It was just above Fojhari.

22     We could see Srebrenica from an elevation.  Joseva is some two and a half

23     kilometres from Fojhari.

24        Q.   And are Joseva and Fojhari to the north of Bajramovici, sir?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 7859

 1        Q.   And are they to south of Potocari?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Okay.  And in your statement, I think you said that the

 4     settlement was on an elevation which had a view of Srebrenica.  Did

 5     Srebrenica fall to the east or west of your settlement?

 6        A.   To the east.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Thank you, sir.  Could you tell the Trial Chamber just a

 8     little bit about your educational background and what your trade is.

 9        A.   By education I was a mining technician.  I was born on the 12th

10     of October, 1966.  I completed my education in Srebrenica, which is where

11     I was when the war broke out.  At the beginning of the war, I was in

12     Srebrenica and if there are any details that you are interested in, feel

13     free to ask.

14        Q.   And just prior to the war and during the war, how were you

15     working?  How were you employed?

16        A.   Before the war I worked in the Sase mine in Srebrenica as a

17     mining technician.  I began working in 1987 and the war broke out in

18     1992.  I was quite young at the time.

19        Q.   And can you just give the Trial Chamber an idea of what kind of

20     work you do now.

21        A.   Currently I am employed in a private company in Sarajevo which

22     provides mechanical safety equipment for facilities.

23        Q.   Now, turning your attention to your OTP statement, you said - and

24     this is at page 2 of the English, page 6 of the B/C/S -  that before

25     Srebrenica was declared a safe area in 1993, you were a soldier in the

Page 7860

 1     Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and that you served as an MP.

 2        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 3        Q.   And you also stated that after Srebrenica was declared a safe

 4     area, that the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina was still organised but

 5     that it was not really active.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   How would you describe for the Trial Chamber the strength and

 8     organisation of the Bosniak forces in the enclave after it was declared a

 9     safe area?

10        A.   I believe, or rather, I know that when Srebrenica was declared a

11     safe area, what followed was that all heavy artillery had to be handed

12     over to UNPROFOR soldiers.  They arrived with a list of heavy weaponry

13     which had been seised from their positions, and when I say "their" I mean

14     Serb positions.  Hence, all heavy artillery had to be returned.

15             However, it remained part of the establishment.  The units

16     remained the same in terms of numerical strength, the same people

17     remained on the list, and smaller groups of people were tasked with

18     performing reconnaissance in order to try to preserve the military

19     regimen.  There were no civilian authorities in Srebrenica at the time

20     and people were left to their own devices.  The situation was quite

21     chaotic.

22        Q.   Now, just to clarify, what are you referring to when you speak

23     about heavy weaponry which had been seised from Serb positions?

24        A.   Mortars, Howitzers, armoured vehicles; all of that had been

25     seised from Serb positions.  Finally, it was returned to the UNPROFOR

Page 7861

 1     base in the outskirts of Srebrenica.

 2        Q.   Okay.  And who was it that seised all of those heavy weapons to

 3     begin with?

 4        A.   The soldiers.  Muslims seised that weaponry from Serb positions.

 5        Q.   Okay.  And I take it that happened during the early part of the

 6     conflict from 1992 to 1993, just to be perfectly clear?

 7        A.   Of course.  Of course.

 8        Q.   How would you describe the nature of the command structure of the

 9     army in Srebrenica, particularly after 1993?  That is, can you comment on

10     the experience and qualifications of the military officers who commanded

11     the various units of the armija?

12        A.   As you all probably know well, in Srebrenica there wasn't a

13     single professional policeman throughout the war.  The army that fought

14     against the Serb army were simply the people who took up arms to defend

15     their homes and families.  We had seen the things they had done in

16     Vukovar and we simply had to put up resistance even though we had no

17     weapons.  We didn't have a single professional officer in Srebrenica.

18        Q.   Okay.  Well, how about Naser Oric who everybody hears so much

19     about, or Zulfo Tursunovic, which the Chamber has heard testimony about,

20     or Ramiz Becirovic?  What about those gentlemen, sir?

21        A.   Well, the defence in Srebrenica began by the local communes

22     organising themselves.  Each local commune elected one leader, and there

23     were five such local communes in Srebrenica.  Since Naser had certain

24     experience because he was in Milosevic's security detail, he was elected

25     the person number one of the defence system in Srebrenica.  Zulfo

Page 7862

 1     Tursunovic was also elected in his own area, but he passed away a few

 2     days ago.

 3        Q.   Maybe there's a translation or some other -- something going on.

 4     Did I understand you correctly to say that Mr. Becirovic had passed away

 5     a few days ago or did he pass away some other time ago?

 6        A.   No, Ramiz Becirovic died, I'm not certain, but it must be nine or

 7     ten years now.  Zulfo Tursunovic is the one who passed away a few days

 8     ago.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Now, to your knowledge did any of the -- those three

10     individuals, Mr. Oric, Tursunovic, or Becirovic have any professional

11     officer training?

12        A.   Only Ramiz Becirovic had been a reserve military officer who had

13     worked in the TO Staff before the war.  I don't think he had any military

14     background, though.

15        Q.   You mentioned, sir, a few moments ago that after Srebrenica was

16     declared a safe area the armija maintained the same fighters on its

17     rosters and still engaged in reconnaissance.  Did I have that correct,

18     first?

19        A.   Yes, you did.  There were no military activities.  A lot of

20     weaponry had been handed over, and the units preserved the manning

21     levels.  We all awaited an inspection where the end of the war would be

22     declared so that people could see for themselves who did anything in

23     terms of defending Srebrenica.

24        Q.   And did the Bosniak fighters in the enclave completely abandon

25     their positions after Srebrenica was declared a safe area, or did they

Page 7863

 1     maintain them to some extent?

 2        A.   They withdrew from their positions.  All positions and elevations

 3     were handed over to UN soldiers.  The Serb soldiers made the best use of

 4     it.  They put up their check-points as closely as possible to UN

 5     positions so as to have a clear view you of the town and to oversee the

 6     situation.

 7        Q.   Okay.  I just want to be clear.  Is it your testimony that the

 8     Bosniak military forces in Srebrenica completely relinquished any of

 9     their positions in the enclave after it was declared a safe area, or did

10     they maintain some form of being able to have visibility on what was

11     going on in the enclave?

12        A.   No, we didn't hold a single line or position once the UN soldiers

13     arrived, until the activities in 1995 when it became clear that there was

14     going to be an attack on Srebrenica, and then things happened the way

15     they did.

16        Q.   Now, did you ever hear anything about helicopters delivering

17     weapons, equipment, and uniforms in 1994 and 1995?

18        A.   Yes, certainly, but they never brought them to Srebrenica.  It

19     all came to Zepa.  Which part of it, if any, reached Srebrenica, I don't

20     know.

21        Q.   Did you ever hear about Bosniak forces from within the enclave

22     exiting the enclave to execute sabotage missions on Serb targets outside

23     the enclave?

24        A.   No, I never heard about that, but I know people sometimes left

25     the free territory to bring back food or livestock because there was

Page 7864

 1     really nothing to eat in Srebrenica.  That's the only reason I am aware

 2     of why people left the enclave.

 3        Q.   And, sir, do you exclude the possibility that small units of

 4     Bosniak fighters were engaged to perform such sabotage activities?

 5        A.   I don't know anything about that.

 6        Q.   And after demilitarisation, sir, are you aware of whether or not

 7     there were trenches that were maintained by any of the Bosniak forces in

 8     the enclave?

 9        A.   You have to believe me when I say that I had no occasion to go

10     around all the defence lines and I didn't go to every corner of

11     Srebrenica, but the lines earlier held by the Bosniak army had been taken

12     over by the UNPROFOR, so they -- the trenches probably remained and were

13     kept up by the UNPROFOR.

14        Q.   Okay.  And I understand, sir, that you served as a military

15     policeman and not as, say, a member of the regular infantry, but did you

16     ever become aware that there were what some people considered three rings

17     around Srebrenica; there was what the Serbs considered their ring, there

18     was what the UN considered its ring, and there was also what the Bosniaks

19     considered their ring which defined the zone, the three respective zones,

20     around the safe area?  Did you ever hear that?  If you didn't, that's

21     fine; I just want to find out what your level of knowledge was at the

22     time.

23        A.   I didn't.  I know certainly after the arrival of the UNPROFOR,

24     there was no military activity anymore except perhaps locally people

25     stood guard, things like that.

Page 7865

 1        Q.   Okay.  Now, sir, you testified in Belgrade in the Skorpions trial

 2     -- and this is, for the Defence, this is at page 29 of the Cyrillic

 3     transcript.  You testified that the Serbs carried out an attack on the

 4     Vidikovac neighbourhood and that that was considered to be a test by the

 5     VRS to see how the UN would respond.  Do you recall testifying to that

 6     effect, sir?

 7        A.   I remember.

 8        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber anything more about what you

 9     recall about that attack:  Approximately where it occurred, what year or

10     month, if you recall, and whether there were any casualties.

11        A.   I remember that very well.  That was perhaps 15 days before the

12     fall of Srebrenica.  The attack started at 4.00 a.m., just before

13     sunrise, and according to later analysis, we came to believe they had

14     come through the tunnel that connected Srebrenica with Sase or perhaps

15     from Zagrici, and a woman named Semsa was killed.  Her house was up

16     front.  It was a volley of fire, actually, and I'm certain it was a test

17     to see how the UNPROFOR would react and if they would react at all.

18        Q.   Okay.  I just have one question about your statement with respect

19     to the actual VRS attack on the enclave in July of 1995.  You say in your

20     statement that your village was shelled on 11 July from Zalazje and

21     Zvijezda.

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber where those locations are?

24        A.   It's not so easy to explain.  Zalazje is east of Srebrenica and

25     east of Joseva.  In Joseva there was no activity at all the whole

Page 7866

 1     duration of the war and it was probably never even necessary to shell it

 2     earlier.  However, on the 11th of July, the main road from Srebrenica

 3     towards Susnjari went through Joseva.  It was a shorter route and a safer

 4     one.  And they probably saw the column moving along that road and that's

 5     why they shelled.

 6        Q.   Those two locations, sir, are they within the Srebrenica Opstina,

 7     the municipality?

 8        A.   Yes, inside the municipality.  It was approximately the positions

 9     where the observation posts of the UN were.

10        Q.   Okay.  I'd like to turn your attention now to the column of men

11     and boys that set out from Susnjari on the night of the 11th.  Did you

12     carry a weapon, sir, when you set out?

13        A.   If you are asking about me personally, yes, I did have a hunting

14     rifle.

15        Q.   And you said in your statement that you were towards the front of

16     the column.  Can you describe how well armed that portion of the column

17     was?

18        A.   For the most part those were semi-automatic and automatic rifles

19     and if there were 3.000 men in that first group, perhaps 1.000 of them

20     had rifles.  That's one in three.

21        Q.   And when you set out, who did you set out with among your family

22     members?

23        A.   My father and my relatives and Casmir [phoen] --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't hear the last name well.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- the brother of my wife.

Page 7867

 1             MR. THAYER:

 2        Q.   Sir, we just need you, for the sake of the record, to repeat the

 3     last name again so that we can have it clear.

 4        A.   Alispahic, Azmir.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And I'll be asking you a few more questions about him

 6     in a moment.  How old was Azmir when you set out?

 7        A.   He was born in 1978; that means he was 16.

 8        Q.   And how about your father?  Can you tell us how old he was when

 9     you all set out?

10        A.   His year of birth is 1939, and that made him 52 or 53.

11        Q.   Okay.  Maybe 56 or 57, depending on how you do the math, but I

12     think we are in the right -- we are in the right ballpark, so it's not a

13     math test here, sir, don't worry about it.

14        A.   He was born in April 1939.  That's when my father was born.

15        Q.   That's all we need.  Now, you described in your statement being

16     shelled first at Buljim on 12 July and then being ambushed again at

17     Kamenica later that morning.  Can you describe for the Trial Chamber what

18     it was like during those ambushes.

19        A.   It's very hard to describe unless you've lived through it, but

20     I'll try, very briefly.  From the time we left Srebrenica, a column

21     formed, heading for Buljim.  We were trying to decide where to go, in

22     which direction.  The first shelling where I was involved was on the

23     12th.  I was already at Buljim, and that's where I witnessed the first

24     shelling.  And when I say "shelling," that means a lot of artillery

25     weapons targeting flesh and blood, and who survives, survives.

Page 7868

 1             We survived the first shelling, and the next ambush came just

 2     before we reached Kamenica, in the area of Bratunac.  Then we took a

 3     small break, forming columns to go on.  However, when we were supposed to

 4     make the decision and head for the tarmac road towards Konjevic Polje,

 5     just before sun -- just before sunset, the fiercest possible shelling

 6     started and our column was bisected and the people heading for free

 7     territory became separated.

 8        Q.   And how many days did you spend in the woods before crossing over

 9     into free territory?

10        A.   Six days.

11        Q.   And you said in your statement that you crossed over near Nezuk.

12     Did you pass by the VRS positions and trenches in the area of Baljkovica

13     before reaching the free territory?

14        A.   Yes.  Yes.

15        Q.   And do you recall whether there had been fierce fighting prior to

16     you passing through Baljkovica between members of the column and the VRS

17     forces at those positions in Baljkovica?

18        A.   Well, I remember that, yes, there was fighting.  However, we

19     broke through the defence line so that 2.500 to 3.000 of us managed to

20     cross over into free territory.

21        Q.   Now, before we begin speaking a little bit more about Azmir

22     Alispahic, you have another brother-in-law named Jusuf Ahmedovic.  Can

23     you tell the Trial Chamber what happened to him?

24        A.   He remained in another part of the column that was separated from

25     us.  He realised he couldn't pass through.  He returned to Srebrenica.

Page 7869

 1     They made some sort of trenches, dugouts in the forest, and they managed

 2     to survive two and a half months.  And then when combat activities

 3     ceased, they crossed over unhindered.

 4        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber a little bit about your

 5     relationship with Azmir Alispahic.  For example, how often would you see

 6     him before the war and during the war?

 7        A.   I know Azmir from the second year of primary school, and when I

 8     was dating my wife, I used to see him every day.  Later on, when my wife

 9     and I moved in together, or rather, she moved into my house, Azmir

10     visited very often, so I saw him growing up.

11        Q.   And please tell the Chamber as precisely as you can remember,

12     when was the last time you saw Azmir Alispahic?

13        A.   The last time I saw him was at Kamenica near Bratunac, before the

14     fierce shelling started.  He was still a child, though, he couldn't dodge

15     the shells.  He was overwhelmed by panic and he probably perished.

16        Q.   Now, I want to show you some photographs.  These are referred to

17     in your OTP statement as photographs 9, 10, 11, 12, and 16.

18             MR. THAYER:  Let's start with P01374, please, in e-court.

19        Q.   Can you tell Trial Chamber who either of the men in this

20     photograph are?  Let's start moving from the right-hand of the screen --

21     or I beg your pardon, let's start from the left-hand of the screen and

22     move to the right.

23        A.   The first one with his head bent, his arms crossed on his back,

24     in a blue shirt is Sidik Salkic.  And the second one is Azmir Alispahic.

25        Q.   Now, the first man that you identified, Sidik Salkic, is he any

Page 7870

 1     relation to you?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber what he did during the war?

 4        A.   Sidik Salkic was a driver in the medical service in the health

 5     centre in Srebrenica.  And I believe as they were moving, he recognised

 6     Azmir and took him under his wing to protect him.  Some stories

 7     circulated that they were captured in Zvornik.  And Srebrenica had links

 8     with Zvornik between health services, people came from -- people went to

 9     Zvornik to get treatment, and that's how they knew each other from before

10     the war.

11        Q.   So basically this relation of yours, Sidik Salkic, drove an

12     ambulance during the war; is that fair to say?

13        A.   What do you mean "relation," "connection"?

14        Q.   I am sorry, there may be a problem with the word I used.  This

15     man you've identified as Sidik Salkic, is it fair to say that he drove an

16     ambulance during the war?

17        A.   Well, there were no ambulances in Srebrenica during the war.

18     There was not a single car in Srebrenica going around except for those

19     little vehicles.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not understand.  Could the

21     witness be asked to explain the word he used.

22             MR. THAYER:

23        Q.   Sir, we are having a hard time understanding the last word you

24     used to describe the small vehicles.  Could you just try again, please,

25     so we can have it clear on the record.

Page 7871

 1        A.   When I use this term, I have to stress before the arrival of the

 2     UNPROFOR you could not drive anything in Srebrenica because there was no

 3     petrol, there was no diesel, there was no petroleum for the petroleum

 4     lamp, for the oil lamp to sit down to have dinner under the light.  It

 5     was only with the arrival of the UNPROFOR that we began to get certain

 6     amounts of fuel.  Second of all, not a single car was able to leave

 7     Srebrenica, but in Srebrenica itself you did not practically need cars.

 8     Everyone -- everything was done on foot or using carts, but Sidik did

 9     work as an ambulance driver as part of his work obligation.

10        Q.   Okay.  So was that before the war, then, sir?

11        A.   Yes, yes.

12        Q.   Okay.

13             MR. THAYER:  Now, let's look at P01375, if we could.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I ask an additional question to clarify

15     something.  You said Mr. Sidik Salkic was a relative of yours.  Could you

16     describe your relation?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let's say that my grandfather and

18     his grandfather were brothers.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Mr. Thayer.

20             MR. THAYER:  And, Your Honour, I'll go ahead and tender P1374

21     while we are getting P1375 up.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, are you tendering the last photograph

23     we have seen on the screen?

24             MR. THAYER:  Yes, 1374.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

Page 7872

 1             MR. THAYER:

 2        Q.   Now, sir, we are looking at the second of the five photographs

 3     you identified during your interview in December of 2004, very similar to

 4     the one we just looked at.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber whether you

 5     identify any of the individuals in this photograph?

 6        A.   The first one is Sidik Salkic, the second one is Azmir Alispahic.

 7     When I say "first," I mean the man looking down, with his head bent, in

 8     the white short-sleeved shirt -- in a blue short-sleeved shirt.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We have still the first photograph on the screen,

10     or is it quite similar to the last one?

11             MR. THAYER:  Yes, they are very similar.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

13             MR. THAYER:  And the Prosecution would tender P1375,

14     Mr. President.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

16             MR. THAYER:  May we have 1376, please.

17        Q.   Sir, do you recognise anyone in this photograph?

18        A.   Azmir Alispahic.

19        Q.   And just for the record, he is the only individual whose full

20     face you can see in this image; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, the Prosecution tenders P01377 [sic].

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

24             MR. THAYER:  1376, beg your pardon, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you, yes.

Page 7873

 1             MR. THAYER:  I was jumping ahead.

 2        Q.   Now, just one question while we are looking at this photograph:

 3     You said in your witness statement that when you last saw Azmir Alispahic

 4     he was wearing a white T-shirt and a black leather jacket and jeans, and

 5     we can see in the photographs that we've seen that he is not wearing a

 6     black leather jacket.  He appears to be wearing a blue or green sweat

 7     shirt or top of some kind.  How do you account for the difference between

 8     the two?

 9        A.   It had been raining and they were captives.  It's possible that

10     he had lost his jacket and was looking for something dry to wear.  It's

11     also possible that they took his jacket away from him and gave him a

12     shirt.  He had proper shoes on his feet, or trainers, but when we

13     identified his remains, we found only soles of the shoes.

14             MR. THAYER:  May we have P1377, please.

15        Q.   Again, very similar to the last photograph, but just wanted to

16     show you the exact photographs that are referred to in your OTP witness

17     statement.  Do you recognise the individual in this photograph, sir?

18        A.   Yes; Azmir Alispahic.

19             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, the Prosecution tenders P1377.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be admitted.

21             MR. THAYER:  And lastly, may we have P1378.

22        Q.   Do you recognise anyone in this photograph, sir?

23        A.   The first person is --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the names.

25             MR. THAYER:

Page 7874

 1        Q.   Sir, could you just repeat the name of the first person.

 2        A.   Sidik Salkic.

 3        Q.   And are you referring to the first person on the right or on the

 4     left of the image?

 5        A.   On the right.

 6        Q.   Do you recognise anyone else in this photograph, sir?

 7        A.   Azmir Alispahic is the second person in the row.

 8        Q.   Again moving from right to left; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes, of course.

10             MR. THAYER:  Prosecution tenders P1378, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This will be admitted into evidence as well.

12             MR. THAYER:

13        Q.   Sir, I just have one final area to ask you about.  You mentioned

14     in your Belgrade testimony in the Skorpions trial - and this is at page

15     44 in the Cyrillic, for the Defence's benefit - that it was very painful

16     for you when you saw people from Bratunac and they were using the word

17     "balija" towards the Muslims.  Do you remember saying that during your

18     Belgrade testimony?

19        A.   Of course I do.

20        Q.   Now, the Trial Chamber has heard that the Muslims sometimes

21     referred to the Bosnian Serbs as "Chetniks" and that the Bosnian Serbs

22     sometimes referred to the Muslims as "Turks."  Is there a difference,

23     from your experience as a Bosniak, between using the word "Turk" and

24     using the word "balija"?  And if so, what does it tell you about the

25     attitude of somebody who uses the word "balija"?

Page 7875

 1        A.   Well, if someone calls you "balija," it means that you are the

 2     lowest of the low and that that person does not see you as a human being,

 3     or anything positive, for that matter.  When they say a Turk, what I

 4     could say is that they probably believe that we have some Turk ancestry,

 5     Turkish ancestry.  It was very difficult for us to be so humiliated,

 6     because in Srebrenica, before the war, there were exceptionally good

 7     neighbourly relations among the people.

 8             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, sir, I have no further questions.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Thayer.  Sir, now,

10     Mr. Tolimir has the right to cross-examine you.

11             Mr. Tolimir.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  May

13     there be peace in this house.  I would like to greet everyone present,

14     including the witness, wishing that the hearing today and the entire

15     proceedings should be concluded according to God's will and not my own.

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

17        Q.   Witness, since we speak the same language, we'll have to take

18     care that we pause between questions and answers so as not to overlap and

19     so that the interpreters could interpret everything.  We will follow the

20     line of questioning used during examination-in-chief.

21             On page 21 and page 22 in lines 25 you explained to Mr. Thayer

22     the difference between the terms "balija," "Turk," et cetera.  We know

23     what your answer was.  You said that there were good neighbourly

24     relations in town, but can you tell us whether the Muslims wanted to

25     remain in this joint country, joint state, and were they invited to do

Page 7876

 1     so?

 2        A.   General, I think you know well the statement made by Mr. Karadzic

 3     during the Assembly session in Sarajevo.  You know what he said and you

 4     know who levelled threats against whom and whose existence was

 5     threatened.  We know what was in store for the Muslims.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  A moment ago you referred to Karadzic.  Perhaps I was

 7     unclear and I'll try to be clearer.  In Serbia and from the FRY have

 8     there been invitations to the population, Muslim population of

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina, to remain part of the joint state after the secession

10     of Croatia and Slovenia?

11        A.   I was not involved in politics, but I do know what things took

12     place in the area.

13        Q.   Since you know what took place, can you tell us how it came about

14     that Bosnia-Herzegovina too seceded from the FRY?  Because the Chamber

15     knows of the SFRY before the conflict.

16        A.   You know well there was a referendum and that the population of

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina opted for independence, to have an independent

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  As for you, the army, and why you did not equally

19     defend both peoples, that is the question.  Why did you allow this war to

20     take place?

21        Q.   Does this correspond to the gist of what you said when you said

22     that it was painful for you to see it all because Muslims wanted to live

23     alongside Serbs, but now you are telling us that even before the war the

24     Muslims asked to secede from the FRY and the Serbs by way of the

25     referendum?

Page 7877

 1        A.   Sir, I must say that there is a very strong political note to

 2     your questions.  Even nowadays, after the war, we still live together,

 3     the Serbs and Muslims.  In Srebrenica today no Serb touches me and I

 4     don't touch anyone else.  We still live together.  We do again.  Perhaps

 5     you are at odds with this, but yes, we do share a common life.  It is our

 6     destiny.

 7        Q.   Thank you, sir.  I understand you.  And I can't lecture you on

 8     politics like you tried to lecture us, but I'm asking you whether before

 9     the war the Muslims decided to leave the FRY, for the record.

10        A.   Yes, yes, that is known.

11        Q.   Thank you.  That was my question, because you said that you

12     wanted to continue living alongside the Serbs, but yet you see that

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina held that referendum.

14             My second question is also based on something you said.  Did the

15     Muslims first leave Srebrenica and go -- went to some other neighbouring

16     settlements at the beginning of the war?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Were those settlements, in terms of altitude, higher than

19     Srebrenica?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Can you tell us why they did that?

22        A.   Given that the population in Srebrenica mainly hailed from the

23     periphery of the town, from the larger local communes, they went there

24     because they could join their relatives and felt safer there.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us who left Srebrenica first, the Serbs

Page 7878

 1     or Muslims?

 2        A.   What do you mean "first"?

 3        Q.   Who was the first to leave Srebrenica, Muslims or Serbs?

 4        A.   Well, you can't say that anyone left anything.  You know how the

 5     war began in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  People were afraid, that's why they

 6     left Srebrenica.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  That may well be your opinion and I won't question

 8     it.  That is not my task here.

 9             Let us discuss the column you were asked about by Mr. Thayer.

10     There was a number of questions.  On page 12 of today's transcript, line

11     23, he asked you where your village is located, and you said that a

12     column went through the village, heading for Susnjari, and that on that

13     day it was shelled for the first time.  Do you recall that?

14        A.   Yes, I do, and it is true.

15        Q.   Do you remember having said that every third person in the column

16     had a weapon?

17        A.   No, you misheard, and I'd like to complete my answer, if I may.

18     The question was related to the first group who went out as

19     reconnaissance, how many of them were armed.  Sir, you know very well how

20     many people crossed over in the first group to the free territory in

21     Tuzla.  You know how many were captured.  You know well who handed in

22     their weapons and who searched the terrain.  All of that terrain was

23     under the control of the VRS, and I had occasion to speak to some top

24     officials from the VRS who disagreed with what took place in the area,

25     and you know well what took place.

Page 7879

 1        Q.   Can you tell us, who did you have those discussions with?

 2        A.   I'd rather not go into that because of their safety or the safety

 3     of that person.  Most of the people who were in the Serb army in

 4     Srebrenica yelled out to our positions from theirs.  They communicated

 5     with us.  I know that you will dispute that because you tried to impose

 6     the regimen of standing at attention, but I know that people were

 7     actually doing that.  They still live in Srebrenica, and I have the Serbs

 8     in mind.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  This is a court.  If you believe that there is

10     something you shouldn't say in open session, please do not say that

11     because we cannot use that any further.  If you want to tell us the name

12     of that person, you can tell us in closed session.

13        A.   Why should I refer to his name when he doesn't want his name to

14     be mentioned.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the speakers please

16     be asked not to overlap.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   [No interpretation]

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, the interpreters ask not to overlap

20     because you are both speakers speeding up and I have to interrupt you

21     that we didn't receive any more interpretation.  Please repeat your last

22     question, and then don't overlap.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I

25     apologise to you and the interpreters.

Page 7880

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   On page 13 of today's transcript, line 15, the witness said that

 3     he had a hunting rifle.  Actually, it is lines 14 and 15.  Then he said

 4     that 1.000 pieces of weapons were carried over, each and every person had

 5     at least some weapon.  That was in lines 14 and 15.  My question hence is

 6     this:  If every third person in that part of the column you referred to

 7     had a weapon, does this make the column a legitimate military target?

 8        A.   I don't know the military parlance and I don't know what a

 9     military target is.  I can tell you what the situation was, and then you

10     are there to explain what it is that you targeted.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us when the column was formed and when

12     it left Susnjari and the other villages surrounding Srebrenica?

13        A.   There was no official time it was formed.  As people were leaving

14     the town and as were being driven out of those parts of the town closest

15     to the Serbs -- I don't know if you are following?

16        Q.   Yes.  I apologise.

17        A.   The column was formed spontaneously as people were withdrawing in

18     front of the advancing troops.  That is why the column was formed, and

19     the women and children left the other way.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that the women and children were headed

21     for Potocari and did you arrange with that part of the population that

22     you were to leave for Susnjari?

23        A.   I would always take the forest route and I believe that it was

24     safer for the women and children to go down there.

25        Q.   So before you left for Susnjari you knew that the women and

Page 7881

 1     children would go to Potocari?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   After the break - because we only have four minutes left - we

 4     will see some footage, but for now, can you tell us whether, since you

 5     moved in that column for six days, were there any women in the column?

 6        A.   Yes, there were.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Since you were an active member of the Army of

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina, can you tell us whether the Army of

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina in Srebrenica had women in its ranks?

10        A.   I don't know what you mean by that, but definitely not.  They

11     didn't carry weapons and there weren't enough pieces to go around for the

12     men, let alone women.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

15     1D05 for the witness to peruse it.  Actually, it is 1D105.  Thank you,

16     Aleksandar.  I wasn't clear about the number.  1D105.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   While we are waiting for the document, I'll give a background.

19     This is a document of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina from Srebrenica,

20     sent by the secretary, Professor Suljo Hasanovic, from Srebrenica on the

21     1st of February, 1995.  Do you know Suljo Hasanovic?

22        A.   I do, but I don't know how this was sent.

23        Q.   Did he have anything to do with the municipal organs?

24        A.   Yes, he worked in the secretariat, I believe.  But can I first

25     read the document to see what it's about?

Page 7882

 1        Q.   Yes, and you can do it out loud so that I don't have to read it

 2     out.

 3        A.   No, you go ahead.

 4        Q.   It was sent from the municipality of Srebrenica to the municipal

 5     secretariat for defence in Tuzla.  And he says that:

 6             "We hereby inform you that 73 women volunteers, assigned to

 7     military units of the army of the republic existing in the free areas of

 8     Srebrenica municipality, are registered with this municipal secretariat

 9     for defence, and three women volunteers are with the Srebrenica MUP.  The

10     total number of women volunteers is 76.  They are currently assigned to

11     the army and the MUP (units, staffs, institutions) and prior to their

12     assignment to the armed forces, they were not examined by recruiting

13     commission."

14             In the last paragraph, it says:

15             "These women lived and worked in the area of Srebrenica

16     municipality prior to the war.  Considering the current situation in the

17     free territory of Srebrenica municipality, we are awaiting further

18     instructions from the Tuzla district secretariat for defence regarding

19     this matter."

20             So he sent this to the district secretariat for defence in Tuzla.

21     Signed by Professor Suljo Hasanovic, secretary.  My question is, does

22     this document, sent by Hasanovic to Tuzla, speak to the fact that the

23     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina had 76 female volunteers?

24        A.   I am really not privy to these details.  I don't know.  I did

25     tell you that there were some women in the column, but I don't know

Page 7883

 1     whether they were soldiers.  I really don't.

 2        Q.   We are going to see the footage of the column advancing.  Can you

 3     tell us whether some of those women wore uniforms or parts of uniform?

 4        A.   Probably because they had nothing else to wear.

 5        Q.   Did you know any such female members referred to by Mr. Hasanovic

 6     out of the 76?  Have you ever seen any one of them, given your duties of

 7     the military policemen?

 8        A.   Yes, some of them worked in the medical unit, but I don't know of

 9     any women in the units.  I really don't.

10        Q.   Thank you.  I apologise, can you tell us whether in the column

11     you saw a single women?  We are going to see the footage.  Please answer

12     with a yes or no.

13        A.   Well, you needn't insist any further.  I did tell you that there

14     were some women who also lost their lives in the break-through.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Did you see any of those women before they were

16     killed as part of the column having worked for the Army of

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

18        A.   I don't know whether your questions are directly related to this

19     trial, but it is easy to verify.  If there are lists testifying to that,

20     you should bring them here and show them to the Court.  It's the easiest

21     thing to do.  The army is now a joint force.

22        Q.   Thank you.  This Court is well aware of what it is that I can and

23     cannot do.  I cannot do what you suggest from where I sit.  The Chamber

24     may do that if they find it necessary, but they also have to draw

25     conclusions based on your testimony.  If you are not testifying

Page 7884

 1     truthfully to this topic, then we can't expect you to tell the truth on

 2     other topics.  Of course, you are free to answer the way you see fit.

 3        A.   I'm certain that I replied truthfully and honestly to every

 4     question and my only goal is that the truth should out here and that all

 5     those guilty should be proportionately sanctioned.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  But please answer my question:  Did you see a single

 7     woman in that column of whom you learned later that was killed?

 8        A.   I did tell you that I did see them, but I don't know whether they

 9     were on any army lists.  I wasn't placed in such a way to be shown any

10     lists.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could 1D105 be made

13     part of evidence.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I note that this was not listed in

15     the list of potential exhibits for your cross-examination.  Is there a

16     reason for that?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'm really not familiar

18     with such technicalities, but my legal assistant and I agreed before the

19     weekend that this should be on the list.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

21             MR. GAJIC:  [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise.  It was

22     an oversight that I am to be blamed for.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for this information.  This document

24     will be received as an exhibit.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D133, Your Honours.

Page 7885

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Mr. Tolimir.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Since

 3     there's only one minute left before the break, so as not to start a new

 4     topic, perhaps we should take the break now and then start with the topic

 5     after that.  Thank you.  I'd like to thank the witness and everyone else.

 6     I would like to apologise again for the overlaps.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  It's a good proposal.  We

 8     have our first break now and we'll resume at quarter past 4.00.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10                           --- Recess taken at 3.43 p.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Thayer, I was told that you would like

13     to raise the scheduling issue.

14             MR. THAYER:  Yes, Mr. President, I do.  We were just notified

15     this morning by Dr. Haglund, who was currently scheduled to testify this

16     coming Monday, 29 November, that he has had some unexpected heart surgery

17     - he has had something implanted, as I understand it - and he will not be

18     permitted to travel for some time.  We still don't have details in terms

19     of what his prognosis or expectation is, for example, to be able to

20     participate, perhaps, in a videolink testimony, which we are exploring

21     scheduling for the end of next week.

22             Again, we are in only the earliest stages of exploring the

23     technical possibilities of that and, just based on prior experience, I

24     would say that they are next to zero, both because it takes a long time

25     technically to set it up, to get Registry on board, and moreover we have

Page 7886

 1     a nine-hour time difference between here and Seattle where Dr. Haglund

 2     lives, and for a man in his condition to have to get up and get to

 3     wherever the videolink would be held from, I just don't see it working.

 4     But we are going to explore it because we want to fill as much time as we

 5     can and not have any gaps, so we'll explore that.  I don't think it's

 6     going to be fruitful, so what we'll do next week is we will just move all

 7     the witnesses a day earlier, which means we'll have Mr. Mandzic returning

 8     for the remainder of his cross-examination, Mr. Razdoljac, who has been

 9     subpoenaed by the Trial Chamber, and then Mr. Gavric.  If we have any

10     time left over, we'll try to come up with somebody to fill the gap.

11             I can also tell the Trial Chamber, and I believe the Defence

12     wishes to be heard orally with respect to our recent motion to amend the

13     65 ter list to include numerous exhibits in connection with the Mladic

14     notebooks, we will have Mr. Blaszczyk available, should the court admit

15     his additional exhibits.  We'll have him available any time, starting

16     today, although I don't think there will be possibility for him to go

17     today for many reasons, but he will be prepared as soon as the Trial

18     Chamber rules on the motion, I understand that the Defence wishes to be

19     heard on that as well, but that's the brief snap-shot of where the

20     scheduling stands.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, thank you for this information and

22     the efforts to fill the court time in an appropriate way.  One question:

23     Mr. Haglund, if he is not able to testify next Monday, is there another

24     witness available for Monday out of those who are scheduled for next

25     week?

Page 7887

 1             MR. THAYER:  Yes.  What I meant by moving everybody a day forward

 2     was we'll move everybody a day earlier.  So Mr. Mandzic will be in place

 3     of Mr. Haglund, Mr. Razdoljac will be ready to testify Tuesday the 30th,

 4     and Mr. Gavric after Mr. Razdoljac.  And if we have a gap after those

 5     three that are currently scheduled for next week, we'll find somebody.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Mr. Gajic.

 7             MR. GAJIC:  [Interpretation] Your Honours, let me first greet

 8     everyone in courtroom.  We are sorry about Mr. Haglund not being able to

 9     come.  We'd like only briefly to state our position regarding the

10     testimony of Mr. Blaszczyk.  The Defence remains on the same position as

11     represented by Mr. Tolimir; that is, we leave it entirely to the Trial

12     Chamber to decide about the testimony of Mr. Blaszczyk and the scope of

13     his evidence.  That means the Defence will take no particular position

14     regarding his testimony.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  But this is not the only issue regarding the

16     application by the Prosecution we received this morning.  That was in

17     fact a motion to add several documents to the 65 ter exhibit list.  What

18     is the position of the Defence to this motion in this respect, and do you

19     want to respond to this motion in written form or orally?  What is your

20     position?

21             MR. GAJIC:  [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't think there

22     is any need for a written submission.  We are concerned about the

23     quantity of material that the Prosecution want to add to their 65 ter

24     list.  That is our only concern.  As for the rest, that's precisely what

25     I meant when I said we will take no particular position regarding the

Page 7888

 1     testimony of Mr. Blaszczyk.  That includes the extension of the 65 ter

 2     list.  We leave it entirely to the Trial Chamber to decide on their own

 3     conscience about these missions and the testimony of Mr. Blaszczyk.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for this explanation.  Then I

 5     take it that we can't expect a written response or an oral response to

 6     this motion by the Defence and the Chamber will consider the motion of

 7     the Prosecution.  Is that a correct understanding?

 8             MR. GAJIC:  [Interpretation] Absolutely right.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  The Chamber will consider

10     the motion.  Nothing else at the moment?  In that case, the witness

11     should be brought in, please.

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Welcome back, and please sit down.  Please sit

14     down.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir is continuing his cross-examination.

17     Yes, Mr. Tolimir.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  At the

19     end of the first session we said we would show the Srebrenica video,

20     P991.  I would like it to be played because we've already asked certain

21     questions concerning the video, of this witness, and there will be more.

22     P991, please.  First of all the forming of the column until minute 14 and

23     then from 33:18 to --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't hear where the video

25     should stop.

Page 7889

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, can you please repeat the end -- the

 2     time for the end of the playing of the video?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, from 33:18 until 36:46.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Please go ahead.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The video stopped at 35 minutes point 05 seconds.

 7     Mr. Tolimir.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   You saw the beginning when the column was being formed and you

11     heard that man saying, at 11:15:09, "I want to sell this tape to Ramzo

12     [phoen]."  Did you recognise that man who said it?

13        A.   No, I did not, but it's not Ramzo, it's Revda, and her husband is

14     Suad, who is on the list and did not survive.

15        Q.   Correct.  Thank you.  And do you know this man who says, "I want

16     to sell this tape to Revdo," or Revda?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Did you recognise yourself in this passage that was shown?

19        A.   Anyone can look for me here, but I'm not there for sure.  And if

20     I may add, in the first passage there is a clear indication of time and

21     date, and in the second part at -- there is a point when somebody says,

22     "Just let the people in Pragas be pulled out of there."  So that was

23     filmed when we were already emerging at the boundary of the free

24     territory, and you can see exactly how many people had weapons.  I even

25     overestimated the number.  You can see on this film that one in five or

Page 7890

 1     one in six only has a weapon.

 2        Q.   You must know that we did not edit this.  This is a film provided

 3     to the Trial Chamber and to the Defence by the Prosecution.  We did not

 4     tamper with it in any way.

 5        A.   I see there is no date.

 6        Q.   Did you see at the beginning, where it says 11 July, 15:09?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Is it the time when the column began to be formed?

 9        A.   I have to repeat this once again:  I am in possession of all my

10     mental faculties and I said in all my statements that on the day when the

11     offensive began I left my house, went down to the centre of town, people

12     were gathering and trying to decide where to go.  I don't know where it

13     was filmed because you cannot see any landmarks.  This can be in Susnjari

14     or in Srebrenica, and it takes two and a half, three hours of walking to

15     get to Susnjari from Srebrenica.

16             Second, regarding the fall of Srebrenica, Srebrenica definitively

17     fell when the NATO bombed positions around Srebrenica.  You can check at

18     what time that was, and that's the time when Srebrenica fell.  I watched

19     it all from my house.  I was at home at the time, not in the column.

20        Q.   On page 4 of this transcript today, line 25, the Prosecutor said

21     the column was formed in the night of the 11th July.  I am asking you,

22     when was the column formed, considering that the Prosecutor later moved

23     on to questions about Azmir and I don't want to confuse the two topics.

24        A.   I don't see the point of your question.

25        Q.   When did the column begin to be formed?  Date and time.

Page 7891

 1        A.   My dear sir, I'll repeat to you once again:  The forming of the

 2     column was spontaneous.  Some people left Srebrenica earlier while others

 3     were still arriving from peripheral areas.  That's how the column was

 4     formed, spontaneously and gradually.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  First of all, I would again remind both speakers

 6     not to overlap.  You should pause between question and answer.  It's very

 7     difficult for the interpreters and for the court record.

 8             Secondly, the question was, when was the column beginning to be

 9     formed?  Despite the -- your answer that was formed spontaneously, but

10     can you give a time estimate?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 11th, before the final fall

12     of Srebrenica people, were already starting to leave, heading towards

13     Buljim.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Mr. Tolimir.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   On this film, did you see a part of the column that was filmed

18     during the day of the 11th at 15:09?  That's 9 minutes past 3.00 p.m.

19        A.   Yes, I did.

20        Q.   When did you leave Srebrenica, can you tell the Trial Chamber?

21        A.   After the bombing, when I saw a column of Serbian troops coming

22     into town in a column two by two, I realised that the NATO forces had not

23     done their job.  I knew that was it.  I locked my home and left.

24        Q.   I understand that, but do you remember what time it was?  Was it

25     the morning, the afternoon of the 11th?

Page 7892

 1        A.   The afternoon.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember when the planes bombed the positions

 3     of the VRS; in the morning or the afternoon?

 4        A.   The afternoon.

 5        Q.   Do you remember where the VRS assets were at the time when they

 6     were bombed?

 7        A.   On the elevations around town.

 8        Q.   UNPROFOR soldiers testified here that they had looked for tanks

 9     as targets on that day, and that they located tanks of the VRS two

10     kilometres far from Srebrenica.  Do you know how wide the encirclement

11     was?  Were the UNPROFOR positions ahead or behind of the Bosnian army

12     positions around Srebrenica?

13        A.   I don't know what you are asking.  We all know very well from

14     which direction the VRS troops came.  They passed unhindered by the

15     UNPROFOR soldiers.  Nobody stopped them.  Why, I don't know.

16        Q.   Can you tell us if they were stopped by the BH Army in Zeleni

17     Jadar?  Did they try to stop them from passing by the UNPROFOR?

18        A.   Yes.  There were certain defence lines there.  I don't know in

19     which position, but, yes, they were there.

20        Q.   Did they come in fighting or without any fighting?

21        A.   Most of the time without fighting.

22        Q.   Can you clarify that?

23        A.   There was nothing to enable us to give an adequate response.  We

24     had nothing.

25        Q.   Did the column leave Srebrenica before the VRS came into the

Page 7893

 1     demilitarised zone of Srebrenica?

 2        A.   No.  No.  The Army of Republika Srpska was pushing the defence of

 3     Srebrenica and the population further and further in.  They came in from

 4     Zeleni Jadar and they pushed the children and women towards Potocari and

 5     the men left in another direction.

 6        Q.   We understand that, but did you see any VRS soldiers from the

 7     column in which you were at a Susnjari?

 8        A.   What do you mean did I see them?

 9        Q.   If the VRS troops came into the demilitarised zone before you

10     left, did the column see VRS soldiers?  Did the VRS soldiers try to stop

11     the column from leaving Srebrenica and Susnjari?

12        A.   From Susnjari there is no visibility towards Srebrenica, but they

13     shelled us all the time, hindering our movement.  You can really not

14     imagine, dear sir, what kind of feeling that is when they are not letting

15     you leave Srebrenica and they are not letting you live in Srebrenica.

16     That was the only reason why we left; to survive.

17        Q.   That was your reason, but do you know that Srebrenica was a

18     demilitarised zone and that if it had remained demilitarised, if there

19     had been no armed attacks from Srebrenica, it could have remained?

20        A.   That's your theory.  Just as you say that Muslims killed each

21     other.  In Srebrenica it was not possible.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I kindly ask e-court to show us

23     D53.  While we are waiting, I'd like to say it's a document from the

24     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, its General Staff, written on the 11th of

25     June, 1995, one month exactly before the Srebrenica events, and it's

Page 7894

 1     called "Preparation For Offensives Order."  Submitted to the 28th

 2     Division of the land forces.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   You can see it now.  Preparation for Offensive Combat Operations.

 5     It says:

 6             "Pursuant to a verbal order issued by the commander of the

 7     General Staff of the BH Army, General Rasim Delic, and in connection with

 8     the great success achieved by units of the BH Army ..." et cetera

 9     et cetera, "I hereby order:  Execute all preparations in the command of

10     the 28th Land Army Division to execute offensive combat operations with a

11     view to liberating the territory of the BH, overextending the A/S and

12     inflicting losses on them, co-ordinating action with the BH Army forces

13     carrying out operations in the broader Sarajevo area."

14             If you look at this, is it the case that the General Staff from

15     Sarajevo ordered the forces in Srebrenica, including the 28th Division,

16     to prepare for launching an offensive?

17        A.   Wait a minute.  Your question is not clear and the text is not

18     clear, because you know that the command and Delic were in Sarajevo,

19     whereas we were in Srebrenica, and I'm probably not even aware of these

20     details.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, the number of this document is not

22     recorded.  Could you please repeat the number.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  It is

24     D53.  Thank you.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't see the connection between

Page 7895

 1     Sarajevo and Srebrenica.  It says here Sarajevo, and I was in Srebrenica.

 2             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   I'll show it to you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

 5     D52 to see the connection between this order and Srebrenica.  Thank you.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   On the screen we see another Army of BH document issued by the

 8     command of the 2nd Corps on the 8th of July, 1995.  At the time of the

 9     events in Srebrenica.  It says:  "Information on combat results of the

10     units and commands of the 28th Ground Army Division of the 2nd Corps of

11     the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina."  We'll skip the first paragraph.  I'll

12     just read out the first two lines of it:

13             "The soldiers of the 28th Land Army Division located in

14     Srebrenica" -- I apologise.  "... located in Srebrenica and Zepa,

15     although completely encircled and facing big problems," et cetera,

16     "decided to contribute to the fight," et cetera.

17             In the second paragraph it says:

18             "A number of successful sabotage actions were carried out deep in

19     the temporarily occupied territory where the following results were

20     achieved:"

21             The first bullet point:  "60 Chetniks were liquidated and,

22     according to unconfirmed reports, the aggressor suffered even greater

23     losses and had many wounded."

24             Then they refer to some seised weaponry.  My question is this:

25     Is there a link between Sarajevo and Srebrenica if we look at the

Page 7896

 1     activities carried out following the initial order carried out by the

 2     soldiers of the 28th Division in the territory controlled by the VRS,

 3     whereas they seem to have killed 60 members of the VRS?

 4        A.   I neither can comment or assess -- nor assess these documents.

 5     I'm not familiar with these events.  I see that there is a certain Suad

 6     Delic in the signature block.

 7        Q.   For your information, the OTP ran their checks and they received

 8     this information from your command in Tuzla.

 9        A.   Oh, the Suad Delic of Tuzla.  Well, let me tell you this:  One

10     should be ashamed to be such a general or brigadier, whatever he was at

11     the time.  When we managed to reach Tuzla, he took off his insignia, his

12     rank insignia, and put them in his pocket, he was that ashamed.  If this

13     is the Suad Delic that I have in mind.

14        Q.   I don't know when it is that you saw him.  Perhaps you can tell

15     the Chamber.

16        A.   When we arrived there after the break-through, he greeted us

17     there, but first he took off his rank.  I don't know why.  Perhaps he was

18     too ashamed.

19        Q.   Thank you.  At page 7 of today's transcript, line 3, you were

20     asked by Mr. Thayer this:

21             "What do you mean when you say that -- that it was taken from TO

22     of OP RS?"  And you say the Muslims captured heavy weaponry from Serb

23     positions.  Do you remember that?

24        A.   Yes, and I reiterated that a moment ago.

25        Q.   Thank you.  These Muslims who killed the 60 Serbs, were these the

Page 7897

 1     people involved?

 2        A.   Well, you seem to be merging two things.  At the outset I said

 3     that during offensive operations some of it was seised.  What you are now

 4     saying, that there is a connection between what I said previously and

 5     this, I can only tell you that I never heard of this.  I don't know about

 6     that.  I do know that there were incursions and that cattle were stolen,

 7     but I'm not familiar with events such as this.  If you have a list of

 8     killed Serbs, killed on specific dates, perhaps you should show it to us

 9     so that we can all see it.

10        Q.   Thank you.  The Trial Chamber will indeed have occasion to see

11     it.  Since you are in the witness -- on the witness-stand now, perhaps

12     you can tell us if you know anything about this.  That's all I'm asking.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

14             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, just to -- so that we can make sense

15     of the record later, page 43, line 11, General Tolimir appears to be

16     quoting a prior part of the transcript but I'm not sure where that is

17     from because it doesn't look familiar, particularly the reference to "TO

18     of OP RS."  I'm not sure anybody has used those acronyms in that way

19     today.  So just so that when we go back to the transcript, we know or

20     have a better idea of what Mr. Salkic was answering there so we have a

21     correct understanding of what the question was, I'd like to have that

22     repeated.  Or if General Tolimir can tell us exactly where in the

23     transcript or what line that came from, if it's just as easy for him to

24     ask the question again, I don't need a chapter and verse, I just want to

25     know what the question was, but we can't tell, I think, from its current

Page 7898

 1     state.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I take it you are referring to page 43, line 14,

 3     in e-court?

 4             MR. THAYER:  Yes.  I think that's the -- yes, it's line 16 on my

 5     screen, but that's -- we are in the same ball-park, Mr. President, yes.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

 7             MR. GAJIC:  [Interpretation] Mr. President, perhaps I can be of

 8     assistance.  I think it is page 8, lines 3 to 5.  Occasionally the

 9     transcript runs a bit late after Mr. Thayer's question, or Mr. Tolimir's

10     question, and since Mr. Tolimir does not understand the English language,

11     occasionally he notes down a wrong reference.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Perhaps you can help your client to have the

13     right quotation that he can put the question to the witness again.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I don't

15     need assistance because Mr. Gajic doesn't know what I was about to ask.

16     I put my question regarding examination-in-chief.  I think it is page 8,

17     line 3.  Mr. Thayer asked:

18             "What do you mean when you say that heavy weapons were seised

19     from the VRS?"  This is what I wrote down in shorthand.  I don't know

20     what the transcript looked like later on.  Then the witness said, on page

21     8, line 5, the following:  "The Muslims captured heavy weaponry from Serb

22     positions."  I can now put a new question to the witness because he has

23     already answered this one.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, to have it clear on the record, I

25     would like to quote page 8, line 3.  Mr. Thayer is recorded to having

Page 7899

 1     said:

 2             "Okay.  And who was it that seised all of those heavy weapons to

 3     begin with?"

 4             The answer was:  "The soldiers.  Muslims seised that weaponry

 5     from Serb positions."  That is on the record in English.  Please carry

 6     on.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Since I

 8     don't speak English, I find this of assistance.  I asked the witness

 9     whether the same soldiers killed the 60 Serbs in the territory controlled

10     by the VRS, and he provided an answer.  If Mr. Thayer would like me to

11     ask that again to receive the answer again, I can only put a new question

12     in relation to the previous one.  My question is, or was --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If that's the question, I would like to receive

14     the response of the witness.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I only want to say once more that

16     the discussions I had with the investigators about the capturing of heavy

17     weapons, that took place during combat activities prior to the UNPROFOR's

18     arrival.  As for this operation or any seising of heavy weapons, that is

19     something I'm not familiar with following UNPROFOR's arrival.

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   First of all, I asked you about the combat order sent by the main

22     command of the army from Sarajevo on the 17th of June, and you said that

23     you don't know about that and that you had nothing to do with Sarajevo.

24             Next I quoted to you the order of the corps where the 60 killed

25     Serbs in July were referred to.  Perhaps if you want me to tie it all up

Page 7900

 1     with Mr. Thayer's questions, then I want to ask you this:  Can you tell

 2     us whether, before Srebrenica was demilitarised, did you take part in any

 3     operations involving the seising of weapons from the VRS, since you spoke

 4     about that?

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us whether your unit participated in the

 7     capturing of heavy weapons?

 8        A.   Again you put -- you are putting words in my mouth.  You say "the

 9     unit that you were part of ..."  I didn't take any part in any captures

10     or operations.

11        Q.   Perhaps I may have been imprecise.

12        A.   I think you are doing it on purpose.

13        Q.   I'll repeat my question and then you can answer.  Can you tell us

14     this:  Did your unit, the unit that you were in, take part in any

15     capturing of the artillery pieces of the VRS?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Very well.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we next see D120.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   The document was issued by the command of the 8th Operational

21     Group in Srebrenica on the 7th of March, 1994.  The title of the document

22     is "Supplement For the Guide to the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

23     Chronicle."

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have page 17,

25     please.  It's page 23 in the English version.

Page 7901

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   The third paragraph begins with "The 1st of May, 1992 ..."  It

 3     further goes on to say "the enemy was sabotaged in the Zutica sector."

 4     It refers to the enemy, which is mentioned in the penultimate sentence of

 5     this paragraph.  It says, inter alia, that you were also a member of that

 6     unit.

 7        A.   Can you tell me what unit?

 8        Q.   Well, I'll tell you.  So item 3:  "Dates, locations, and brief

 9     description of all significant combat activities from the time of

10     establishment until the 31st of January, 1994.  On 1 May, 1992, the enemy

11     was sabotaged in the Zutica sector."  The unit referring to is the 281st

12     East Bosnian Brigade.  What brigade did you belong to?

13        A.   I was only a member of Military Police Company.  Let me tell you

14     this:  If you have lists and rosters, it's no problem to establish

15     anything.  There were three Osman Salkic's in Srebrenica in the company I

16     used to work for.  It's easy to prove anything, but let me see what

17     people this refers to specifically.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, just a moment.  This document was

19     received under seal and should not be broadcast, just for the record.

20     Please continue.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   It says here that the 281st East Bosnian Light Brigade carried

24     out its attack on 1 May 1992.  It was a sabotage operation against the

25     enemy in the sector of Zutica.

Page 7902

 1        A.   Take my word for it, I was never up there.

 2        Q.   Thank you, but let me finish reading and then you can tell us

 3     whether you participated or not.  Then it says:  "On 1 May, 1992, enemy

 4     sabotage of the command staff at Viogor was avoided."  Were you at Viogor

 5     on that date?

 6        A.   I'm not certain.

 7        Q.   On 2 May and 3 May, 1992, a strong artillery and infantry Chetnik

 8     attack was repelled with the assistance of a group of soldiers from the

 9     Potocari TO.  Then there are further activities of the unit up until

10     1993.  At the end of this paragraph, it says Visica, or Visnjica in the

11     last line, "On 7 June, 1992, the enemy was successfully" et cetera.

12     There seems to be something missing there.

13             And then we have a number of names.  In the third row, it says

14     "Osman Salkic."  The cursor is there.  It says Osman Salkic.  Can you see

15     it?  Then it says Mustafa Mujic, Kadrija Mujic, Bekto Memisevic, Sefik

16     Zildic, et cetera.  Do you know any of the people on the list?

17        A.   Sir, once again, it's very easy to check the list of military

18     policemen.  I don't know any of these persons.  If I were afraid of

19     anything, I would ask to be a protected witness, but I'm testifying here

20     in open court.  I'm not ashamed of anything or anyone.

21        Q.   Thank you, I'm not accusing you of anything, I'm really asking

22     whether you know of any of the people here.

23        A.   [No interpretation]

24        Q.   Thank you.  Can you answer this question because you were not

25     able to answer this one:  You said you were a military policeman.  To

Page 7903

 1     which unit, according to establishment, did your unit belong?

 2        A.   We were 20 or so.

 3        Q.   That's not what I asked.  Did you belong to a brigade or a staff?

 4        A.   I think a staff.

 5        Q.   If you think you were a staff unit, then we'll go back to the

 6     staff.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, let me interrupt you for a moment.

 8     At line 15 of this page, 49, there is an indication that the answer was

 9     not interpreted I heard in Serbian the answer No, and therefore I would

10     like to put to the witness again.  Sir, Mr. Tolimir, asked you, "I'm

11     really asking whether you know any of the people here."  What was your

12     answer?  And "here" means on the list in front of you.  What was your

13     answer?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  We'll

17     see the document now.  A document from the unit to which this witness

18     belonged, he just said they belonged to the staff.  It's P957.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   While it's being uploaded, I'd like the witness to explain to the

21     Trial Chamber which staff he meant.  Is it Naser Oric's staff or the

22     staff of one of the brigades in Srebrenica?

23        A.   The staff of the command of Srebrenica Defence.

24        Q.   Where was that inner circle of the command?  Where was its

25     location in 1992, 1993?

Page 7904

 1        A.   At the Territorial Defence staff.

 2        Q.   We now see this document, again issued by the Republic of

 3     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and since you say at the staff, for the record to be

 4     clear, it says command of the operation's group Srebrenica, is that the

 5     unit where you were a military policeman?

 6        A.   My dear sir, many of your questions are totally confusing to me.

 7        Q.   Look under 1(a) Lovac, Stari Grad, Srebrenica.  Then (b), command

 8     of the operative group Srebrenica, up to (e).  In which of these bases

 9     were you based?

10        A.   None of these.

11        Q.   Where was Naser Oric based, if you were with his staff?

12        A.   At no point did I say that I was with the staff of Naser Oric.

13     Naser Oric had a team of young men who were constantly with him.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The question was where was he based?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean Naser Oric?

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes indeed.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Most of the time the command was at

19     the Territorial Defence staff.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And where was that located?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the staff, I said.  Although he

22     never sat in an office.  He was mostly in the field, on the front lines,

23     visiting troops.  He never sat in an office.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Where was the staff located?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The building from before the war

Page 7905

 1     which housed the Territorial Defence staff, and that was kept later by

 2     the BH Army for its command.  I hope I'm clear enough.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can you tell us where this building is located?

 4     Where is it situated?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the centre of town.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You mean Srebrenica?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Witness, as a military policeman, did you ever stand guard,

12     provide security at the building where the staff was based?

13        A.   To anticipate some of your questions, I'll tell you straight

14     away:  I led five or six men in the military police.  I was the duty

15     officer in an office and I gave them assignments.

16        Q.   Was that office in that staff?

17        A.   No, it was in the old police building.

18        Q.   How far is that from the staff?

19        A.   Perhaps one kilometre.

20        Q.   That old police building, did it belong to the staff and did the

21     police provide security for the staff?

22        A.   Honestly, nobody provided security at the staff.  There were no

23     guards because only our army was in town.  There were these young men

24     around the commander and every unit had someone like a receptionist.

25     People with guns went mostly to the front line and those were people who

Page 7906

 1     stayed in town.  They knew each other.

 2        Q.   Since you said a moment ago that you sat in an office and you

 3     gave five men assignments for security missions, did you participate in

 4     any of these security missions at the staff?  Did you go to the staff?

 5        A.   Yes, I visited the staff, but on no particular assignment.  Only

 6     if I needed to pass on some information because we had no radio, no

 7     communications.  And to finish my answer, they did not only on security

 8     assignments to the staff, they also went to pass on a message, on another

 9     errand, because our police commander lived there.  As a military man you

10     probably find this illogical, but in Srebrenica we moved around on foot

11     or on horseback.  That's the only way.

12        Q.   I understand, but I want to know if your unit had any assignments

13     in the staff, or did you go on assignments elsewhere?

14        A.   There was no security for that staff.  We were more like a

15     messenger service.

16        Q.   Tell the Trial Chamber, what was the purpose of your unit?

17        A.   In all brigades, I believe there were two military policemen.

18     And anything that happened within a brigade, breach of regulations, would

19     be reported to the military police and then a military policeman would

20     invite the offender for an interview.

21        Q.   What was your responsibility?  Did anyone physically secure the

22     staff?  When Naser goes out into the field, he has his own security men,

23     and then you said that people with guns went to the front line.  If all

24     the weapons were on the front line, did anyone secure the staff?

25        A.   None of the military policemen did, but there were always people

Page 7907

 1     who did some work at the staff.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us, for the record, what were you doing

 3     until 1992, until the mobilisation?  To which unit did you belong and

 4     what kind of work did you perform?

 5        A.   I was just a military policeman.

 6        Q.   Were you independent in your work or did somebody give you

 7     assignments?  Because you said you belonged to the staff.

 8        A.   We had a military police commander who lived there in the same

 9     building, upstairs.  He knew everything and he gave us work to do.

10        Q.   Who was your commander?

11        A.   He was an active-duty policeman, a professional policeman.

12     Sakib -- let me remember his last name.  He is no longer alive.

13        Q.   If you can give us his last name, and then when we find him we'll

14     find your unit.

15        A.   I think it might be Krdzic.

16        Q.   The time it takes us to find him on the list, can you tell us if

17     you knew Naser Oric, the division commander?

18        A.   Of course I did.  I know him from high school.

19        Q.   Did you know him from the war?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Did you ever carry out any assignments, any work in the building

22     where the operations group command was based, where Naser Oric was based?

23        A.   Did I have any assignments there?  No, I did not have occasion to

24     do any work for him.  He had a team of young men with him that was his

25     permanent entourage.

Page 7908

 1        Q.   I'm sorry, I have no more time to try to establish where you were

 2     during the war, I'm giving up on that, because you don't want to tell us.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think this is not a correct statement, to say,

 4     "you don't want to tell us."  The witness has the duty to answer every

 5     question here in the courtroom, but some of your questions are not very

 6     helpful to assist the witness to answer.  If you want to know where the

 7     witness was working during the war, I think he told us a lot about that,

 8     but I would like to put the question again.  Can you tell us where you

 9     were during the war?  This was the question of Mr. Tolimir, the last one.

10     Can you repeat that, please.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was a member of the military

12     police in Srebrenica.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, what else do you want to know?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I have

15     nothing more on the subject because being a member of the military police

16     in Srebrenica is a very broad concept.  It gives me no information, but

17     I'm not going on if he doesn't want to tell me.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not that I don't want to, I

19     just don't know what you expect me to tell you.  I'm telling you, Naser

20     had an elite team of men that he took with him everywhere.  There are

21     many things I didn't like in the war.  I chose the military police, in

22     fact, I was assigned to the military police because I had been in the

23     military police in the JNA in the 1985 class, under the command of

24     Captain 1st Class Jeftic.  That is why I got assigned to the military

25     police.  My philosophy was I only wanted to survive the war.  I didn't

Page 7909

 1     want to wage war, I didn't want to fight, I just wanted to get out of

 2     there alive.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   I'll come back to my previous question, page 8, line 5, where you

 5     said Muslims had seised heavy weaponry from the Serbs on their positions

 6     before the demilitarisation.  Can you remember where those positions were

 7     where the Muslims captured Bosnian Serb weapons?

 8        A.   Where all their lines fell around Srebrenica, on each them, on

 9     each of the Serbian lines some weapons were captured.

10        Q.   That means that the BH Army in Srebrenica was the dominant force

11     that could seise weapons from Serbs any time they wanted?

12        A.   Whether it was dominant or not, I don't know, but the fact is

13     they seised some weapons.  They had to, because the people in Srebrenica,

14     my dear sir, had nothing to eat.  Just like you are trying here to defend

15     yourself in every possible way, that's what we did in Srebrenica.  When

16     night falls and you have nothing to give your child to eat, just ask

17     General Morillon what the people who housed him in Srebrenica could give

18     him to eat.  I was there.

19        Q.   When you came to that assignment to General Morillon, did you get

20     that assignment from the division commander staff or from a brigade

21     command?

22        A.   Commander Sakib gave me that assignment, to go there and to see

23     what's going on.

24        Q.   Did that mean that your commander could decide on his own, he

25     didn't have to ask anyone above him?

Page 7910

 1        A.   No, these were small matters he could decide on his own.  Just

 2     one more thing I want to tell you:  In Srebrenica there was no military

 3     regimen like in the Army of the Republika Srpska.  When you take a

 4     weapon, you never know what the reaction would be, whereas you had order

 5     and system in your army.  It was very different.

 6        Q.   Let me go back to your statement.  Maybe it will be easier.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now show -- my legal

 8     assistant will give me the number.  P1373.  Page 3, please.  Paragraph 2.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   The witness should take a look at his own statement, maybe that

11     will help him answer.  Thank you.  We now have the right page.  Paragraph

12     2 starts with the words:  "In the spring of 1992."  It says:

13             "In the spring of 1992, I joined the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

14     in Srebrenica."

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is another page in the English.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   "I didn't go to the front line but I did work in the brigade.  I

18     provided security to the staff headed by Naser Oric."

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which page is it in English, please?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is page 2, the one before this

21     one in the English.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   My question is this:  In your statement you say that you didn't

25     go to the front lines but that you worked within the brigade and secured

Page 7911

 1     the headquarters of which Naser Oric was the commander.  Can you tell the

 2     Chamber what it means when you say that you secured the HQ?

 3        A.   What I said a moment ago:  Sakib would send us if something

 4     needed to be done.  We didn't have standing shifts or duty there.  We

 5     simply conveyed messages, et cetera.  It was sort of logistical support,

 6     if someone had to go somewhere, convey a message, et cetera.  We weren't

 7     providing security for Naser in Srebrenica.  There was no one to guard

 8     him against.  He had a group of his own men.

 9        Q.   Do you know the names of those guys and were they members of your

10     unit?

11        A.   What guys?

12        Q.   Those who were providing security for Naser Oric.

13        A.   They were not members of my unit.  They were with him all the

14     time.

15        Q.   You saw your statement?

16        A.   I want to repeat something:  I was never with Naser Oric.  I

17     never provided security for him.  It says here "secured the command," but

18     there was nothing really to secure.

19        Q.   Thank you.  I simply wanted to quote your statement, and then you

20     can tell us whether it is correct or not.  Perhaps it was erroneously

21     noted down.  I don't know if that's what you said or not.

22        A.   Well, you can imagine for yourself what sort of tasks I could be

23     assigned to.  As I said, sometimes I would be sent to the HQ to convey a

24     message or to bring something, et cetera.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Look at the second paragraph, the last sentence.  You

Page 7912

 1     say:  "I could hear Serb soldiers over military radio stations, and some

 2     of them spoke in Serbian accents."  My question is this:  Based on what

 3     you could hear over the radio, is this what you based your conclusion on

 4     about those people speaking with the Serbian accent taking part in the

 5     activities around Srebrenica?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  That was in 1992.  Let me ask you this:  Did you know

 8     that in 1992 all Serbs were driven out of certain parts of the Bosnian

 9     Croat Federation and that those people came to Eastern Bosnia?

10        A.   I didn't know that.

11        Q.   Did you know that for a while in the RS the Ekavian dialect was

12     mandatory, it was made mandatory by an Assembly decision, and it was the

13     same dialect that was spoken in Serbia?

14        A.   I wasn't aware of that.

15        Q.   Did you also know that by virtue of the same Assembly decision,

16     the Cyrillic alphabet or Cyrillic script was made mandatory, as it is in

17     Serbia?

18        A.   I didn't know that.  Before the war we were taught both in the

19     Latinic and Cyrillic script.  I can understand you very well, whichever

20     language you use.

21        Q.   Did you know all Serbs who were in the positions around

22     Srebrenica?

23        A.   Of course I couldn't know them all, but there were Serb

24     neighbours who yelled out across the lines.  They would say who they were

25     and wanted to communicate.

Page 7913

 1        Q.   Was what you heard over the radio the basis on which you conclude

 2     that there were Serbs from Serbia who came to Srebrenica to wage war?

 3        A.   In Belgrade, at the trial there, I said had there been no Serbia,

 4     there wouldn't have been the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and this applies

 5     to any kind of support, be it in logistics, manpower, or anything else.

 6        Q.   Let me ask you this:  Could the war have been avoided had

 7     Bosnia-Herzegovina remained the part of the same state with Serbia?

 8        A.   Well, you are asking too much.  I don't know.  It was decided on

 9     by the political leadership.  Here people are held accountable for the

10     loss of human life, not for political decisions.

11        Q.   Well, I'm asking you whether there would have been a war if

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina decided to stay.

13        A.   Well, why would you not honour the will of the Muslim people,

14     then?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Thayer is on his feet.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, indeed, Mr. Thayer.

17             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I think we've travelled this ground

18     already to some degree today.  I think the witness has answered

19     consistently when he has been asked essentially the same questions in a

20     slightly reconfigured fashion.  Unless there's some new ground that

21     General Tolimir wishes to cover along these lines, I think we've

22     exhausted these very large-scale questions which the witness, frankly,

23     just told General Tolimir is not a matter for his testimony, and frankly,

24     at this stage, with this witness, not fruitful usage of the Court's time.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, Mr. Tolimir, the Chamber always would

Page 7914

 1     appreciate if the parties not repeat questions already answered by a

 2     witness.  And I think this is the case at this moment as well.  Please

 3     move on.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, but I put

 5     my questions based on what the witness said.  He said that there would

 6     not have been the war if the Muslims had been asked, but I asked him

 7     whether the Muslims wanted to leave Serbia -- sorry, the FRY where the

 8     Serbs lived.  That's all I'm asking.  He can say yes or no.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And this question is already answered by the

10     witness at the beginning of your cross-examination.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   A moment ago you said -- you asked me why we didn't defend the

14     referendum held in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I'm asking you this:  Wasn't I

15     supposed, as the soldier, to protect the country that some people wanted

16     to secede from?  Wasn't I there to protect its constitutional order?

17        A.   I don't think this is an appropriate question.  Who were you

18     defending Yugoslavia from?  The Muslim people voted in the referendum,

19     they voted in favour of secession, so why would you not honour that?

20        Q.   Thank you.  In the SFRY were the Muslims in the majority or the

21     minority, and are you familiar with the procedure applied to any changes

22     of the constitution of the FRY?

23        A.   If I were that familiar with politics, I wouldn't be a worker, I

24     would probably be an Assembly deputy and be much better off in terms of

25     living standard.

Page 7915

 1        Q.   Look at the fourth paragraph --

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, at the outset of the testimony of

 3     this witness, we heard about his education and his position as a military

 4     police.  I'm not sure if this helps your Defence to discuss political

 5     questions about secession of a part of the former Yugoslavia with this

 6     witness.  You should decide to put such questions perhaps to other

 7     witnesses.  Please focus on those issues the witness can provide answers

 8     to you in a sufficient way and carry on.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, but he

10     touched upon the problems of the causes of the war.  I'm now moving on to

11     paragraph 4 of the statement.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   The fourth line says the dam at Perucac.  The witness apparently

14     heard artillery in the environs of the Perucac dam.  Was that an

15     important facility for Serbia and Republika Srpska?  And was it supposed

16     to defend the dam at Perucac?

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We couldn't hear the

18     reference in the statement.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there was a hydro-electrical

20     plant there.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Were there any sabotage operations carried out by any units from

23     Srebrenica aiming at destroying the dam and the plant?

24        A.   I don't think it would be so easy to destroy it, although I'm not

25     familiar with whether there were any attempts.

Page 7916

 1        Q.   Was the FRY tasked with defending the dam from any sabotage

 2     operations?

 3        A.   If no one was shelling Serbia, why was Serbia shelling Bosnia?

 4        Q.   Thank you.  If Afghanistan did not shell the USA, why did the USA

 5     shell Afghanistan?

 6        A.   Well, you should ask that of someone else.  Might makes right?

 7        Q.   Let's move to page 4 of your statement.  In paragraph 2, you say

 8     that you worked as part of the security detail for General Morillon when

 9     he came to Srebrenica, et cetera.

10        A.   Yes, I was there when he was there.

11        Q.   Before that you say that shells landed in Srebrenica from the

12     direction of Ljubovija.  It is the first paragraph on page 4.

13        A.   Yes.  Shells landed the same day when General Morillon was there.

14     Some landed even a hundred metres away from the spot where he was.

15        Q.   That's what I wanted to ask.  Were there any ballistics experts

16     present in Srebrenica to ascertain the direction of firing?

17        A.   That's a ridiculous question, General.  You are trying to say

18     again that Muslims were killing Muslims or that UNPROFOR soldiers fired

19     at Morillon?  You killed so many people, you should acknowledge that,

20     stand up and say yes, it was us, don't put it on someone else.  Just

21     acknowledge that so that we could go on living in Bosnia.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have to interrupt you.  I'm very sorry for that

23     [Overlapping speakers] ...

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  ... this is really understandable.  On the other

Page 7917

 1     hand, it's not a correct statement to say this is a ridiculous question.

 2     It is up to the Chamber to decide if a question is appropriate or not.

 3     Please, this is the right of Mr. Tolimir to cross-examine you, to put

 4     questions to you, and it's better for you to come down a bit, to keep

 5     control about your emotions and just answer the questions put to you.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, would that be a good time for the

 8     second break so that everybody could come down?  Mr. Thayer.

 9             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, if I could ask, we need an accurate

10     estimate from General Tolimir about how much more he has left.  We have

11     another witness who is ready to go and we would prefer not to have him

12     waiting around for no reason if there's no realistic chance he is going

13     to start today.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, could you indicate how much more

15     time you need?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I'd like

17     thank Mr. Thayer for reminding us.  We notified that we would use the

18     whole of today's day for this witness, and if you are in no position to

19     grant that, then ...

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The time estimation given to the Chamber was

21     slightly different.  If I remember correctly, you said two up to three

22     hours, and not the whole day.  This is a difference.  And therefore I'm

23     very glad that the Prosecution had a reserved witness available today

24     because this is the best way to avoid waste of time.  If you need the

25     whole remainder of the -- today's hearing, I think -- do you want to add

Page 7918

 1     a something?  Do you want to add something?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if my legal

 3     assistant promised that we would wrap it up in three hours, I will do so.

 4     If there's any problem.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

 6             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I just want to make it clear:  As the

 7     Prosecution, we have no problem with an expanded estimate for

 8     cross-examination, we just simply need to know what it is so that we can

 9     avoid having the witness sit around.  We are perfectly comfortable with

10     going the entire day with the witness.  I do have some redirect

11     examination just simply based on some of the documents that were used

12     already, I can tell the Trial Chamber that right now.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Mr. Tolimir, this is always

14     the understanding of the Chamber.  It is just a question of your

15     estimation.  That's all.  You told us you need the whole day and

16     including the examination-in-chief, I think the next witness should be

17     released for today.

18                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We must have our second break now and resume

20     quarter past 6.00.

21                           --- Recess taken at 5.45 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 6.17 p.m.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before we continue, let me tell you the

24     following:  Mr. Salkic, I know it's the first time that you are giving

25     evidence here in the Tribunal, but please be aware we are in a court, we

Page 7919

 1     are in a trial, and have to find out the truth.  We are not in a debate

 2     on political issues, and we are not in a parliament.  And therefore,

 3     please think about some of your responses and try to be not too

 4     emotional, although after everything you went through, it is

 5     understandable.  But it doesn't help anybody in the courtroom.  I hope

 6     you will understand my words.

 7             And, Mr. Tolimir, please focus on those areas the witness can

 8     provide you with answers as a military policeman and not with -- don't

 9     expect too many valid answers on political aspects of this case.

10             Please carry on.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  The

12     Defence has checked and we have established that so far we have spent one

13     hour and 35 minutes and we have announced that we would need three hours,

14     so we are still within our time-framework.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You are absolutely correct, Mr. Tolimir.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see page 5 of the

17     statement.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Where we see that the witness in paragraph 2 speaks, and that's

20     in the last sentence, where he said:

21             "I went home after various attacks and we were certain that

22     Srebrenica had been captured."  Do you recall that?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   My question is this:  Did all the military and civilian

25     leadership go to Susnjari in this same column that Mr. Thayer spoke about

Page 7920

 1     earlier?  Thank you.

 2        A.   Yes, they had to go via Buljim from Susnjari, that's correct.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Who took the decision for your family to separate and

 4     that women go to Potocari and you to Susnjari which happened at Lipjan?

 5     Now, you mentioned this in paragraphs 1 through 8.

 6        A.   Well, I took that decision because it concerned my wife, my

 7     mother, and my children.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Was the same true of other families, did the male

 9     paterfamilias take the decision?

10        A.   I wouldn't know anything about others.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Did that mean, since you were the one who took that

12     decision, that part of the military column deliberately left Srebrenica

13     before Srebrenica fell and sent some men, some women and children to

14     UNPROFOR?  Is that the decision that was taken by the civilian and

15     military leadership, because they joined you on their way to Susnjari?

16        A.   Well, yes.

17        Q.   Was there any connection between Susnjari and the central office

18     in Sarajevo?  And I'm referring to the military and civilian leadership.

19        A.   Well, let me put it this way:  I'm certain that all

20     communications had been cut before we reached Buljim because I had a

21     radio -- a transistor radio with me.  On the second day spent in the

22     woods, I was listening to a news report broadcast by Radio

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina which said that the lines in Srebrenica were holding

24     and they were probably just offering support to other fighters, and of

25     course, I expected that we would get some help.

Page 7921

 1        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 4 of your statement, you say that during

 2     the night of the 11th and 12th of July, we formed a column and that you

 3     were close to the beginning of the column, together with Muslim men and

 4     that this column was about seven kilometres long.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   My question is this:  Who was it who decided that you should be

 7     at the beginning of the column?

 8        A.   Well, no one really made that decision.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Now, who determined how long the column is going to

10     be?  Can you tell us about that?

11        A.   Well, I really don't know the details, I don't know who

12     established the column and how that went.  Now, you try to figure out

13     when 10.000 to 12.000 people set off from Srebrenica, how long do you

14     think the column should be if they are actually taking the most remote

15     paths?

16        Q.   Thank you.  Well, maybe I wasn't clear enough in my question.  My

17     question actually was this:  Was it the civilian or the military

18     authorities who decided that the column should take this remote path

19     through forbidding terrain?

20        A.   Well, I really don't know that, but in view of the fact that

21     Naser and several other platoon and company leaders were -- had been sent

22     for training, I don't know who it was who actually took this decision.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Now, were these people sent to Tuzla for training or

24     did Naser go there on his own initiative, if you know?

25        A.   Well, you are asking me about several things, but I'll try to be

Page 7922

 1     brief.  They took him, they took him there, I know, because the

 2     helicopter had come to pick him up.  Now, had he taken the forest-path,

 3     like I did, I would say that he was a traitor of his own people.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, could we please see document

 6     P67 [as interpreted] to see the reasons why Mr. Oric went to Tuzla.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   While we are waiting for the document to come up, which is D67,

 9     in order to save some time, let me say that this is a document that the

10     General Staff of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, on the 13th of July,

11     which means after the fall of Srebrenica, sent via their 1st Corps

12     through Mustafa Hajrulahovic's commander to the president of the

13     Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Alija Izetbegovic, and this document is

14     in fact a report that has to do with some activities involving Srebrenica

15     and Zepa.  Now, we can see the document before us, and I would just like

16     to refer you to the fourth paragraph.  That's page 2 in English.  So

17     bullet point 4 on page 2.

18             I will read it:  The preparations for the future operation of

19     linking up the enclaves we brought four brigade commanders and the chief

20     of the 28th Division -- the Chief of Staff of the 28th Division, which is

21     Naser Oric.  And then it says:  The division commander did not return.

22     The division commander, who was meant to go on the next helicopter

23     flight, did not return.  After the final flight ended tragically, Naser

24     remained.

25             Then in the next bullet point it says that there were 17

Page 7923

 1     helicopter flights and each time the helicopter had been hit.

 2             Now, this document is familiar to the Trial Chamber because

 3     Mr. Thayer asked you in his examination-in-chief whether you knew whether

 4     helicopters came to Srebrenica, and you said that they did, so I have no

 5     further questions regarding this document, but is it clear to you now

 6     that the corps commander -- the corps command and the state command, the

 7     army command, actually planned for the linking up of the two enclaves,

 8     based on what we read in this document?  Could you answer that?

 9        A.   Well, no, but if I just add, you mention company commanders.

10     Now, I can't really say who the persons were by name, but I know that

11     some of them had gone and then returned.  Now, Naser remained there.  I

12     don't know why he did not return.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Now, do you know that on the 11th, the night of the

14     11th, there were negotiations going on in Srebrenica while you were in

15     Susnjari for the refugees to be evacuated from Srebrenica to Kladanj?

16     Are you aware of that fact?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Did you ever have occasion to see on television a

19     video film where -- which shows Mladic negotiating with representatives

20     from Srebrenica?

21        A.   Well, I believe everyone saw that film.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Based on that footage, could you see that at the time

23     there were negotiations going on at Fontana Hotel between the civilian

24     authorities in Srebrenica and the army of the VRS -- of Republika Srpska

25     about the evacuation of your family, since you had fled to the woods, and

Page 7924

 1     for them to move towards Kladanj?

 2        A.   Well, I believe I know more about this than you do.  They did

 3     negotiate, but the people who had come to the UNPROFOR protected zone,

 4     and I believe at that time Naser Mandzic, Muhanovic's father, that was

 5     the interpreter, they were the ones who took part in the negotiations.

 6     They were already on the base --

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Now, among you, the men, you said 10 to 12.000 men

 8     who had left, was it clear to you that there would be any negotiations

 9     going on about the evacuation of civilians to Kladanj?  Why did you send

10     them off then when you set off?  Because I'll remind you of your words:

11     You said that you were the one who took the decision for your family to

12     leave.

13        A.   Well, of course, because I expected UNPROFOR to protect them.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Now, was it also logical, then, for you to expect

15     that there would be negotiations about this?

16        A.   What do you mean; about the women and children or about us?

17        Q.   Well, I mean primarily the women and children and then we will

18     also touch upon the subject of the men.

19        A.   Well, had you, the Army of Republika Srpska, not organised the

20     transport the way you did, probably the UN or the Red Cross or the

21     international community would have intervened and transported them.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Now, let's talk about the military column.  Did you

23     in the military column expect that the Army of Republika Srpska would

24     allow you to pass through without -- and you were carrying weapons, to

25     allow you through without any fight, fighting?

Page 7925

 1        A.   Well, I don't know what to say, but there were stories going

 2     around about exchanges of territories, and I believe you are very well

 3     aware of this, and I believe it was a major trap, in fact, because why

 4     would so many Muslims actually surrender to the Army of Republika Srpska

 5     otherwise?

 6        Q.   Well, thank you, but did you expect the military column and, as

 7     you said, every third man was armed, did you expect that the Army of

 8     Republika Srpska would allow you to go through this territory without any

 9     fighting?

10        A.   Well, perhaps it would have been smarter had they allowed us all

11     to go through, but for fear of having casualties, maybe that's why they

12     didn't do it, so that's what happened.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Now, Mr. Thayer, on page 15 of today's transcript,

14     asked you whether you went through Baljkovica and whether there was any

15     fighting in Baljkovica, and you said yes, 2.500 to 3.000 of us crossed

16     over to the liberated territory.  Do you recall that?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Can you tell us a bit more about the fighting there?  What kind

19     of fighting was it and what kind of casualties did both sides incur?

20        A.   Well, I really can't tell you specifically about any casualties

21     and losses.  I know that it was pouring with rain immediately preceding

22     our break-through and I know there were already -- it had already been

23     rumoured that the corridor would be open for us to pass through.  I

24     believe some tanks were captured, and a Praga and so on.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell us, please, who was it who captured

Page 7926

 1     these tanks and Pragas?  Was it the Army of Republika Srpska or the Army

 2     of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 3        A.   Well, it was the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina -- the Federation

 4     army.  They captured these weapons on the line along which we were

 5     supposed to pass.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Did you go through Baljkovica under fighting

 7     conditions?

 8        A.   Not me, but others have.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  We heard in this footage that one person said that

10     Praga and weapons should be taken along.

11        A.   Well, that was a reference -- it was from that place.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Now, did the army remove and take away with them the

13     weapons, Praga and other weapons, from Baljkovica?

14        A.   Well, I really don't know.  I went by there, I went through

15     there, but I don't know what happened there exactly, but I know that

16     immediately following that the lines were recaptured again, and what

17     happened specifically, I don't know, but of people who did go there, they

18     never came back.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Did you see any casualties there, where the Muslim

20     Army was going through the territory in Baljkovica which the Army of

21     Republika Srpska was defending?

22        A.   Well, I know the men who were killed, but I don't know who was

23     wounded because there were a lot of people there, a lot of our people.

24        Q.   Can you tell us any names?

25        A.   Ejub Golic, one of the commanders, got killed during the

Page 7927

 1     break-through.

 2        Q.   Can you tell us how many other people got killed during the

 3     break-through?

 4        A.   I can really not give you any figures with any certainty.  If I

 5     had prepared for this, I could have found some figures on the internet,

 6     but I really came here without any preparation on purpose.  I wanted to

 7     say only what I know.  I was overjoyed simply to see that I'm still alive

 8     and free.  That was where it all ended for me.

 9        Q.   Thank you, but you are a witness who went through the column all

10     the way through Srebrenica and participated in the break-through at

11     Baljkovica, as Mr. Thayer asked you.  And based on that, I'm asking you,

12     have you seen any Serbian or Muslim losses in Baljkovica or anywhere?

13        A.   Well, I gave you one answer, Ejub Golic, I saw him got killed but

14     I didn't see any Serbian casualties.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Tolimir be asked to slow down a

16     little and not overlap with the witness.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, first of all, please slow down and

18     don't overlap.  It's very hard for the interpreters and they ask you not

19     to overlap.  And secondly, you should switch on your microphone.  Carry

20     on, please.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   You said there were about 1.000 rifles.  Were there perhaps more?

24        A.   You were able to see on your own video how many people carried

25     rifles.  That was my rough estimate.  We never once lined up and counted

Page 7928

 1     how many weapons we had.

 2        Q.   Let's take, for instance, D126, where Naser Oric says how many

 3     weapons there were in Srebrenica.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If you move to another document, Judge Mindua

 5     wants to put a question to the witness in relation to this document on

 6     the screen now.

 7             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I apologise, Mr. Tolimir.

 8             Witness, we are talking about this column, and you were at the

 9     beginning of the column, the head of the column, and you talked about

10     1.000 rifles, that one person out of three had a weapon.  If I understood

11     you correctly, you did not notice any losses on the VRS side.  Now, this

12     is my question:  While you were in the column I would like to know

13     whether there was any fighting going on.  I mean, you were part of the

14     military, so were there any shots being exchanged between the two sides

15     or was this people wandering, you know, at random, with guns?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there was fighting, yes.

17             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] So there was fighting.  VRS troops

18     shooting at you and members of the column that were shooting back?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we now see D126.

23     It's a statement made by Mr. Naser Oric which he gave in several

24     instalments to the newspaper Oslobodjenje after the fall in the enclave.

25     We see his photo.  I'll read out certain passages and then I'll ask you

Page 7929

 1     my question.

 2             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   I'm reading from the second line of this statement, where it says

 4     "Demilitarised Zone."  Second paragraph, second line.  You know this

 5     language, it says:  "Demilitarised Zone.  At any time of day or night --"

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's the second page in English.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   "At any time of day or night from the beginning of the war until

 9     June 1993 when Delic took over, I was in contact with Commander Sefer

10     Halilovic by radio.  He was the only man who knew exactly what was going

11     on there.  When the order on demilitarisation came, the commander told me

12     to turn over only those weapons which were out of service and useless and

13     heavy guns that we could not hide.  That is what we did.  We kept defence

14     lines and our weapons."

15             Now, my question is this:  After the demilitarisation, were there

16     any weapons on the lines and were Muslim soldiers armed?

17        A.   Really, I did not walk along the lines and God knows why Naser

18     made this statement.  Maybe it was meant as psychological support.  When

19     the UNPROFOR came, they came with a list of weapons they needed to

20     receive, that needed to be turned over for them, with numbers and type

21     indicated.

22        Q.   Did you see that list?

23        A.   No, but I know they looked for weapons on their list.

24        Q.   Now, look at the penultimate paragraph in the fourth column.  It

25     says:

Page 7930

 1             "Then Zulfo Tursunovic" -- it's page 3 in English.  "Then Zulfo

 2     Tursunovic and I made a plan and first we cleared Chetnik villages and

 3     then we attacked the town and entered the town.  Srebrenica was liberated

 4     in May 1992 and that was the first town to be liberated in the Republic

 5     of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

 6             Now, my question is, from whom did you liberate Srebrenica?

 7        A.   I don't understand the question.  What do you mean "from whom"?

 8     The town was held at the outset by Serbs and with a creation of this Army

 9     of Bosnia-Herzegovina and a defence of some sort, and with the

10     assassination of one of the leaders, Goran Zekic, the Serbs left

11     Srebrenica on their own.  You can ask why Goran Zekic was liquidated.  He

12     was a man who grew up together with Muslims, maybe he was at odds with

13     the leadership of Republika Srpska; I don't know.  And there's nothing

14     you can really get from my answer, whatever I answer, because we don't

15     know, we don't have a list of Serbs who were killed in Srebrenica, but

16     there is a list of Muslims, old people, who were buried by the Serbs as

17     they were leaving Srebrenica.

18        Q.   Did you participate in this liberation?

19        A.   Certainly not.

20        Q.   Let's see the story on the other side.  Let's read the last

21     column, where it says:

22             "Guard duty on the line."  "Guards along the lines."  The last

23     column of the interview, that's it.

24             "We did not want the Chetniks to see the weapons that we had not

25     turned over.  That would have given them an argument to refuse to sign

Page 7931

 1     the agreement and God knows what else.  We certainly had 2.000 rifles

 2     that I know about, and I did not know about everything."

 3             And then in line 6 -- sorry, line 9, he says:

 4             "We left 20 cannons with four barrels which we turned into

 5     one-barrel guns.  And let me explain, we hid every weapon we captured

 6     from the Chetniks and we got them out when we went into action.

 7     Everybody hid weapons from everybody.  Only the boldest ones, the real

 8     soldiers, reported on their weapons.  Others hid them until they were

 9     needed.  It is understandable.  So we had probably some 4.000 rifles and

10     it became manifest during the break-through," et cetera.

11             Were you aware that there were weapons inside Srebrenica apart

12     from those that were turned over to the UNPROFOR, less than 200?

13        A.   I really don't know.

14        Q.   Were those weapons on the defence lines held by the BH Army

15     around the Srebrenica enclave?  Because Mr. Thayer asked you about that.

16        A.   I really don't know.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have P956.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Meanwhile, I'll tell you it's a document from the BH Army, from

20     the command of the 28th Division of Srebrenica, its security section,

21     drafted in June 1995, a month before the fall of the enclave.  That's a

22     monthly report, and when you have looked at page 1, it's a document from

23     Srebrenica sent to the 2nd Corps in Tuzla.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to look at the second

25     page, referring to the military police.  Page 2.  This is it.

Page 7932

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   It says, item 4, "The work of the military police."  That's where

 3     you were.

 4             "The military police has been used in keeping with rules and

 5     regulations.  The military police platoon of the 282nd Brigade has been

 6     engaged since 6th June, 1995, on the lines at Ljubosavici [phoen].

 7     Another Military Police Company of the same brigade has been engaged from

 8     the 13th to the 22nd June, securing UNPROFOR check-points or observation

 9     posts in their zone of responsibility."

10             Were you ever engaged on such duty, securing check-points?

11        A.   I was in the military police from the -- from -- until 1993.

12     That means that at this date I wasn't with the military police.

13        Q.   Well, if the demilitarisation had been carried out, who would

14     have been in a position to provide security to the UNPROFOR in this month

15     of this year?

16        A.   I don't know to whom this document was sent.  It was maybe just,

17     what they call it, psychological support purposes or maybe to satisfy

18     some military regulation.

19        Q.   Were there any Muslim soldiers on those defence lines around

20     Srebrenica?

21        A.   In which period?

22        Q.   The period relevant to this trial, in July 1995 when there was

23     fighting around Srebrenica.

24        A.   Yes, during the offensive operations, there were brigades that

25     offered resistance.

Page 7933

 1        Q.   Where were you then, since you were demobilised?

 2        A.   I was at home.

 3        Q.   Now, could you tell the Trial Chamber if you had had any duties

 4     after 1993 and after the demilitarisation of the UNPA Srebrenica?

 5        A.   No.  And even when I got to Tuzla I wasn't involved in anything

 6     except I was maybe perhaps recorded on paper, but I wasn't doing anything

 7     because I didn't want it.

 8        Q.   Was that entirely up to you?

 9        A.   Nobody could force me.  I wouldn't have anyone make me do it

10     because the end of the war, for me, was when I got out of Srebrenica.

11        Q.   But while you were in Srebrenica, could somebody make you go to

12     the lines?

13        A.   Maybe, but that would have been difficult because there were more

14     volunteers than rifles, plus there was nothing to eat in Srebrenica, and

15     anyone who volunteered to stand guard on the lines at least got one meal

16     a day.  Still I didn't want to do it.  I stayed at home.  But the

17     situation slightly improved when the UNPROFOR arrived.  Until the

18     UNPROFOR, there was a different period; you have to distinguish between

19     the two.

20        Q.   You said that after the arrival of the UNPROFOR you managed to

21     receive small amounts of fuel.  How was that?

22        A.   Well, through some channels.  I don't know.

23        Q.   Does that mean that the UNPROFOR provided you with fuel?

24        A.   Yes, for certain purposes, like the hospital, for generators,

25     et cetera.

Page 7934

 1        Q.   Did the army receive humanitarian aid and fuel that was meant for

 2     the civilians?

 3        A.   I really don't know how that worked.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have completed my

 6     cross-examination.  We tried to fit in within the time allocated.  I

 7     thank you, Witness, for your answers.  Please don't hold it against me.

 8     I have to put to you the questions that I have to.

 9             I apologise to the interpreters and the Trial Chamber because of

10     the speed of my questioning and the overlapping.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  I'm grateful for that,

12     Mr. Tolimir.

13             I would like to put a question to the witness.  If I understand

14     you correctly, you left the military police in 1993; is that correct?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  What was reason for that?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we knew that was the end of

18     the war for Srebrenica.  I wanted to spend more time with my family.  I

19     had obligations towards them because your only source of livelihood was

20     what you could raise in your own vegetable garden, and I had no other

21     option.  You can check for the exact date.  It was three or four days

22     after the proclamation of the UN protected area.  They just told us one

23     fine day there's no more work, that's it.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You didn't receive any salary after that time you

25     left the military police?

Page 7935

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were no salaries in

 2     Srebrenica for the army or anyone else.  There was nothing for anyone.

 3     Only the troops on the lines, in positions, received food, but no money.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Was it your decision to leave the military police

 5     or was it a decision by the military?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My only idea was to survive the

 7     war.  I felt safer in the military police because we were not exposed to

 8     action on the front line.  Plus, it was my former duty during my military

 9     service in the JNA.  That's why they assigned me to the military police.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  [Overlapping speakers] ... you didn't understand

11     my question.  Was it your decision to be demilitarised and to leave the

12     military police?  Or was it the decision of the police?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Someone up in the command must have

14     said that the military police was no longer to function, and that's when

15     it all stopped.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe a few MPs remained who

18     did some work for the brigade.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Mr. Thayer, do you have

20     re-examination?

21             MR. THAYER:  I do, Mr. President.  I'll try to get it done so we

22     don't have to bring Mr. Salkic back.  Part of it may be done, I think,

23     outside of his presence; it concerns a particular document.

24                           Re-examination by Mr. Thayer:

25        Q.   Just to follow up on the Presiding Judge's question, Mr. Salkic,

Page 7936

 1     did I understand your testimony correctly that the various brigades that

 2     were present within the Srebrenica enclave had their own military

 3     policemen attached to them?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And were you yourself ever attached to a particular brigade?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   General Tolimir showed you a document earlier, that's D120, in

 8     which he purported to establish that you were a member of the 281st East

 9     Bosnia Light Brigade, based in Suceska.  Do you recall those questions,

10     sir?

11        A.   I do recall the questions.

12        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber how far Suceska is located from

13     your village of Joseva?

14        A.   Between 15 and 20 kilometres.

15        Q.   So based on the geographic composition that the 28th Division

16     followed in Srebrenica, would you have had any reason to be part of the

17     281st East Bosnia Light Brigade which was based in Suceska?

18        A.   I really never belonged to that brigade, but I did say that

19     Salkic was a common last name.  I know at least another two people

20     bearing the same name, however, I never was a member of that particular

21     brigade.

22        Q.   Okay.

23             MR. THAYER:  And, Your Honours, I have some additional work to do

24     with this particular document.  I can tell the Trial Chamber I warned the

25     Defence about using this document for a couple of reasons, but we don't

Page 7937

 1     need to do that in the presence of the witness.  We can take care of that

 2     tomorrow.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Do you have additional questions to the witness?

 4             MR. THAYER:  I do, Mr. President, on one other topic, but if Your

 5     Honour has a question, certainly you'll take precedence.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed.  Judge Nyambe.

 7             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Just now in answer to a question from Mr. Thayer,

 8     line 15, page 82, he asks you, "And were you yourself ever attached to a

 9     particular brigade?"  And your answer is, "No."  My question for you is:

10     Where were you within the structure of your organisation?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have a precise answer.  I

12     don't know what unit we exactly belonged to and who were we subordinated

13     to.  Believe me when I say that.  For example, we never had a single

14     lineup to perform in Srebrenica.

15             JUDGE NYAMBE:  How did you come to be in that position?  There

16     must have been some call-up or something?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What position do you have in mind?

18     I was assigned to the military police by the secretariat, because they

19     had lists of those who had served in the JNA, with our military

20     specialties.  It was for that reason that I was assigned to the tasks of

21     a military policeman.

22             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Understood.  But a military policeman working

23     within which structure?  You were not part of a brigade.  What were you

24     part of?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably that of some inner

Page 7938

 1     command.

 2             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, I think we have to continue tomorrow

 4     with re-examination, but I have a follow-up question to Judge Nyambe, the

 5     same topic, I would like to put it to the witness.

 6             Mr. Thayer asked you:  "Did I understand your testimony correctly

 7     that the various brigades that were present within the Srebrenica enclave

 8     had their own military policemen attached to them?"  And your answer was,

 9     "Yes."  And then the follow-up question was, "And were you yourself ever

10     attached to a particular brigade?"  And then you said, "No."  I indeed

11     don't understand that.  Perhaps we can clarify that.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can.  What was the reason for

13     that?  All of the brigades were based on geographical distribution.  One

14     area had one brigade, another area had another, the third had its own.

15     So the brigades were comprised of the local population, and inside each

16     brigade, two or three people were selected to co-ordinate.  We, however,

17     were in the town itself and we were a link between the brigade military

18     policemen and the command.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Mr. Thayer.

20             MR. THAYER:  And, Mr. President, I'll just call the Trial

21     Chamber's attention to page 49 of today's transcript, just for the

22     clarification of this issue and I will have some obvious follow-up

23     questions along this which I think will clarify where the Trial Chamber's

24     questions lie with respect to Mr. Salkic's assignment.  I think it's not

25     too complicated or it's not as complicated as it possibly seems at the

Page 7939

 1     moment.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 3             I'm very sorry, Mr. Salkic, that we have to adjourn for the day.

 4     We are over time already.  And we will resume tomorrow morning at 9.00 in

 5     this courtroom, and you have to come back again.  Be reminded it is not

 6     allowed to have contact to either party during the break.  We adjourn.

 7                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.

 8                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 23rd day of

 9                           November, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.