Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7940

 1                           Tuesday, 23 November 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning to everybody.  If there are no

 6     procedural matters or other issues to be raised, the witness should be

 7     brought in, please.  Mr. Thayer.

 8             MR. THAYER:  Good morning, Mr. President; good morning, Your

 9     Honours; morning to the Defence; good morning, everyone.  Just a quick

10     update on Dr. Haglund's situation while the witness is being brought in.

11     We've explored with him the possibility, putting all the technical

12     practicality issues aside, as to whether he could be available for a

13     videolink testimony at the end of next week.  He is willing, but his

14     medical situation is such that if his heart rate elevates at any

15     particular time, his doctor will order him to the hospital.  Given that

16     contingency alone, I think, given all the mechanics required to get the

17     videolink set up, we'll just reschedule and I'll ask the Court some

18     additional questions regarding that at another time.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for that update.

20                           [The witness takes the stand]

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning, sir.  Welcome back to the

22     courtroom.  I have to remind you that the solemn declaration you made at

23     the beginning of your testimony still applies.  And Mr. Thayer has some

24     more questions during his redirect.  Mr. Thayer.

25             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 7941

 1                           WITNESS:  OSMAN SALKIC [Resumed]

 2                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 3                           Re-examination by Mr. Thayer:  [Continued]

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 5             MR. THAYER:

 6        Q.   And good morning to you, sir.

 7        A.   Good morning.

 8        Q.   I think the Honourable Presiding Judge's last question to you at

 9     the very end of yesterday's session went a long way to clarifying

10     matters.  At page 84 of yesterday's transcript, you answered:

11             "All of the brigades were based on geographical distribution.

12     One area had one brigade, another area had another, the third had its

13     own.  So the brigades were comprised of the local population, and inside

14     each brigade two or three people were selected to co-ordinate.  We,

15     however, were in the town itself and we were a link between the brigade

16     military policemen and the command."

17             Do you recall that testimony from yesterday?  I know it was sort

18     of an eventful afternoon for you, I just want to make sure you recall

19     that, sir.

20        A.   I do.

21        Q.   So when in your witness statement, for example, and this is at

22     page 2, where you say that you didn't go to the front lines but that as a

23     military policemen you worked between the brigades, the language you used

24     in your witness statement, is that what you meant there, that you were a

25     link between the brigades?

Page 7942

 1        A.   Absolutely right.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And this is P1373.

 3             MR. THAYER:  Yes, Mr. President.

 4        Q.   And again building on your answer to the Honourable Presiding

 5     Judge's question of yesterday, so when at page 49 of yesterday's

 6     transcript General Tolimir asked you, "Did you belong to a brigade or a

 7     staff," you answered, "I think a staff."  And then on the next page you

 8     explained that it was, and I quote, "the staff of the command of the

 9     Srebrenica defence."

10             Again, just building on your answer to the Honourable Presiding

11     Judge's question at the end of yesterday, is that what you are referring

12     to when you said that you were a member of a staff, this link between the

13     brigades?

14        A.   Yes, in that sense, because, among other things, in one of the

15     shifts there would be four or five young men patrolling around town,

16     looking what is going on.  If any soldiers were creating any problems,

17     they would report to one of our superiors and they would report on.

18        Q.   And in your JNA training and in your experience as a military

19     policemen in the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, what is the purpose of a

20     military staff such as the one to which you belonged?  What is the

21     general purpose of a staff?

22        A.   I had no training as a member of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

23     but I was an MP in the former Yugoslav People's Army.

24        Q.   Okay.  And my question is simply, and again if you can answer it;

25     if you don't think you can answer it, that's fine, but based on your

Page 7943

 1     training and your experience as an MP, can you tell the Trial Chamber,

 2     just generally, what is the purpose of a military staff such as the one

 3     to which you belonged when you were an MP?

 4        A.   Well, the army recruited into its military police people who were

 5     fit, trained - I'm talking about the former JNA - they had undergone good

 6     training, they had to have good people skills, good communication skills,

 7     establish a dialogue with another person, use the powers that the police

 8     had.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Let me ask you the question a different way.  Can you tell

10     the Trial Chamber in your experience what were the duties, the typical

11     duties of a military policeman, first?  That's my first question.

12        A.   I'm speaking strictly about our work.  Unless we got some

13     specific order from the police commander, the young men who would be on

14     patrol duty would patrol around town, submit a report to the commander

15     about what was going on on the ground, things like that.

16        Q.   And your role during the time-period that you served as an MP,

17     sir, can you tell the Trial Chamber whether you had those types of duties

18     or whether you had other types of duties as a member of this staff that

19     you've described for us.

20        A.   I rarely walked around town on patrol.  I'll tell you first of

21     all how it came about that this military police was formed.  Armed men

22     sometimes arrogated the right to pose as anyone and do what they like.

23     That's how the idea occurred to someone that a military police should be

24     formed, a military police that would have some authority and check such

25     behaviour.  That's how we operated.

Page 7944

 1        Q.   Okay.  Now, can you tell the Trial Chamber how, if at all, your

 2     personal duties - I'm just talking about you, sir, when you were serving

 3     as an MP in Srebrenica - how, if at all, were your duties different from

 4     the duties of the MPs who you told us were assigned to the various

 5     brigades in the enclave?

 6        A.   Well, MPs attached to brigades were subordinated exclusively to

 7     their brigade commanders or company commanders and could receive orders

 8     only from them.  We, on the other hand, were stationed in the town

 9     itself, and that's where we did whatever needed to be done.

10        Q.   Okay.  And you told us that there was a military police commander

11     and that his name, if I've got it correctly, was Sakib Krdzic, or

12     something to that effect, and he lived in the same building, upstairs?

13        A.   Krdzic, that's right.  Yes, yes.

14        Q.   And did Mr. Krdzic have a rank of any kind that you recall?

15        A.   He was an active-duty policeman, I really don't know if he had a

16     rank.  See one thing, before the arrival of the UNPROFOR, there were no

17     ranks in Srebrenica, there was nothing.  It was only after we established

18     some sort of communication with Tuzla and Sarajevo that they started

19     assigning ranks to commanding officers.  I really don't know who had

20     which rank, and you have to believe me if I say that I wasn't really

21     interested in these things.

22             And one more thing:  No one in Srebrenica had rank or rank

23     insignia and I never saw any rank insignia on ABiH army officers until I

24     arrived in Tuzla.

25        Q.   You just told us that Mr. Krdzic was an active-duty policeman.

Page 7945

 1     Do you know whether he was a professional military officer or had any

 2     military experience beyond, for example, his mandatory JNA training?

 3        A.   I don't think he did, but I'm not sure.

 4        Q.   Okay.  And to whom did Mr. Krdzic report?  Who was his direct

 5     superior officer?

 6        A.   I'm not sure, but probably someone in the top command.

 7        Q.   And when you say "top command," what are you referring to?

 8        A.   I mean all the brigades, when they sat down together, he probably

 9     gave them a report or a briefing.

10        Q.   Okay.  And was it your understanding that -- go ahead.

11        A.   Just one more thing:  I know that all brigade commanders were

12     able to give orders to Sakib, what he should do.  They were able to give

13     him orders what to do.

14        Q.   Okay, that was my next question for you, and I'll ask it again

15     just to make sure we've got it clear.  In the military hierarchy of

16     command, was the staff to which you belonged superior to, subordinate to,

17     or at an equal level with the brigades, as you understood it?

18        A.   I think he was subordinate to brigades.  First of all, because

19     there were very few people, and second, we were like a service catering

20     to all brigades.  So all brigade commanders were able to give orders to

21     Sakib Krdzic and he passed those orders down the line.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, may I put one additional question.

23     Sir, when you say "all brigade commanders were able to give orders," do

24     you mean the commanders of the different regional brigades and the

25     Srebrenica enclave?

Page 7946

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, right.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, please continue.

 3             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Just one final question

 4     on this.

 5        Q.   I take it that there was a brigade whose area of responsibility

 6     included the town of Srebrenica in which your office was located?

 7        A.   Not strictly for Srebrenica, but there was one brigade made up of

 8     people from the peripheral areas, such as Konjevic Polje, Kamenica.

 9     Those that fell in 1993.  Cerska, Konjevic Polje, and Srebrenica.  These

10     people who had fled these parts and moved to Srebrenica, they formed one

11     brigade.

12        Q.   Okay.  Let me ask it a different way.  I'm just focusing on, for

13     example, down-town, the centre of the town of Srebrenica.  I take it that

14     there was some formation, be it a brigade, a battalion, some military

15     formation, whose responsibility it was to protect or defend that area of

16     responsibility, that geographical circumference of that part of the town

17     or, if it was covered by various units, so be it let us know, but can you

18     tell us whether you were aware that there was a unit or units whose area

19     of responsibility included that down-town area where you had your office?

20        A.   Well, in fact only lines around Srebrenica were defended.  In the

21     town itself there was neither military activity nor any other similar

22     activity in the town itself, but people lived in the town and they knew

23     exactly what their roster was and when they should go to the lines.

24        Q.   Okay.  Now, General Tolimir asked you, and this was at page 50 of

25     yesterday's transcript, where the staff's location, and that would be the

Page 7947

 1     staff of the command of the Srebrenica defence that you spoke about,

 2     where that location was in 1992 and 1993, and you answered "at the

 3     Territorial Defence staff"; do you recall that?

 4        A.   Yes, yes.  It's the same building that used to house the

 5     Territorial Defence staff inside the town and that's where the command

 6     was located.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And I think you told us that Naser Oric didn't spend a

 8     whole lot of time there because he was in the field.  I just want to

 9     follow-up on a question that the Honourable Presiding Judge asked you

10     about that building itself.  You said it used to be the former

11     Territorial Defence quarters.  Can you tell us what kind of building it

12     was?  Was it an apartment building, a store, a warehouse?  Did it have

13     some recognisable peacetime function?  You know, for example, there were

14     certain things in the PTT building, we've heard testimony that there was

15     a small communications room in the PTT building.  The Judges have been to

16     Srebrenica.  If this was a non-descript building, just tell us, but if

17     there's some other way to describe this building other than the former TO

18     building, just let us know just so we can have an idea of what this

19     building actually was.

20        A.   It's office space with offices, and the TO operated until the

21     very beginning of the war, until just before the war.  Mr. Tolimir can

22     probably explain it to you better.  It was a service of the Yugoslav

23     People's Army.  People just moved into these offices.

24        Q.   Okay.  And as the TO offices, that would have been sufficient in

25     itself so that everybody would recognise it as such; is that fair to say?

Page 7948

 1        A.   Everyone who lived in Srebrenica I believed knew that staff and

 2     knew where it was.

 3        Q.   And just to give us a little bit of background, can you just very

 4     briefly explain to us what the Territorial Defence, which we are

 5     abbreviating as TO, meant?  What was it?  You mentioned it a few times,

 6     we've heard the abbreviation TO, Territorial Defence, thrown about a

 7     little bit; can you just tell us what its function was, what its purpose

 8     was?

 9        A.   In the Territorial Defence staff there were reserve military

10     officers of the former Yugoslav People's Army.  Their task was to make a

11     list of all military-age able-bodied men to make and issue wartime

12     assignments to everyone so that manpower can be mobilised as required.

13        Q.   Okay.  Now, you further clarified yesterday, and this was at page

14     52, that your office, where you spent your time, was in the old police

15     building which was about a kilometre and a half from the old TO office

16     building.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber a little bit more about where

17     this old police building was located in Srebrenica town?

18        A.   Yes.  The building of the old police station was located -- I

19     don't know if you have a plan of Srebrenica, it's when you go from the

20     post office halfway towards the staff.  It was a little bit closer to the

21     staff than to the post office.

22        Q.   And how close was it, for example, to the UN compound in

23     Srebrenica town?

24        A.   A kilometre and a half, maybe two.

25        Q.   Okay.

Page 7949

 1        A.   You see, while I was there, there was no UN compound.

 2        Q.   When you say "when I was there" what do you mean, sir?

 3        A.   I mean before the UNPROFOR arrived, the police operated.  With

 4     the arrival of the UNPROFOR, that unit was disbanded, no longer existed.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Now, sir, yesterday General Tolimir told you that the

 6     Republika Srpska Assembly had made the Ekavian dialect mandatory.  Can

 7     you explain to the Trial Chamber what the Ekavian dialect is?

 8        A.   The Ekavian dialect is a way of pronouncing words prevalent in

 9     Serbia.  For instance, in Bosnia we would say, for the word "children,"

10     [B/C/S spoken] "deca," and in Serbia they would say [B/C/S spoken]

11     "djeca."

12        Q.   And as a Bosniak born and raised in Eastern Bosnia, do you

13     consider Ekavian your native dialect?

14        A.   Both Serbs and Muslims in Srebrenica spoke the Ijekavian dialect.

15        Q.   And the words sound similar, but are they different dialects,

16     sir?

17        A.   Right.

18        Q.   General Tolimir also told you that the Republika Srpska Assembly

19     made the Cyrillic alphabet mandatory.  You testified that you were taught

20     both Latinic and Cyrillic.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber, in Eastern

21     Bosnia did the Bosnian Muslim and Bosnian Serb communities prefer one

22     alphabet over the other or traditionally use one over the other?

23        A.   In school we would learn what was then called the Serbo-Croat

24     language, writing in one script for seven days and then the next seven

25     days the other script, but we learned the Roman script more than the

Page 7950

 1     Cyrillic.

 2        Q.   When you say "we," who are you referring to?

 3        A.   All of those who lived in Srebrenica.  They made it mandatory.

 4     It was an Assembly decision to make it mandatory because the Cyrillic

 5     script had not been mandatory before that time.  That's why they

 6     introduced that obligation.

 7        Q.   And what alphabet or script did you use day in and day out?

 8        A.   The Roman script and the Ijekavian dialect.

 9        Q.   And how about the other Bosnian Muslims of your community, sir;

10     what script did they use and what dialect did they speak?

11        A.   The same.  They all used the Roman script and the Ijekavian

12     dialect.  Only those children who attended high school in Serbia, they

13     signed themselves in Cyrillic letters for the most part.

14        Q.   So tell us, sir, what did these laws that General Tolimir cited

15     tell you, as a non-Serb, about how you, as a non-Serb, could expect to be

16     treated if you found yourself living under Republika Srpska authority?

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to greet everyone and I

19     would like to have these proceedings concluded by God's will and not my

20     own.  I'd like to greet the witness.  Thank you for the floor.

21             This calls for speculation.  I quoted the law to the witness

22     whereas Mr. Thayer is asking for speculation.  He should adjust his

23     questions to the procedure, having in mind the regulation of Republika

24     Srpska.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

Page 7951

 1             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, this is a perfectly fair question

 2     that follows directly on General Tolimir's questions that raised these

 3     specific issues.  General Tolimir raised the issue of these laws and I'm

 4     simply asking this witness, who lived through this period, grew up within

 5     his community, how these laws that General Tolimir spoke about -- what

 6     they tell him, what they tell him based on his experience, Mr. President,

 7     about how he could expect to be treated.  What does a law like that tell

 8     him based on his experience.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And with this explanation, it is not beyond the

10     scope of re-examination.  Please carry on.

11             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12        Q.   Did you understand the question, sir?

13        A.   I did understand it.  As long as my human rights, that is the

14     right to express myself and my right to speech, are not in danger, I will

15     feel on my own in Srebrenica and I will reside there.  I have a house

16     there, I frequently visit the area.  I know that the overall situation is

17     somewhat discriminatory, but since I can write in that script, I will use

18     it.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  In

21     Republika Srpska the right of Muslims to use their dialect and script is

22     not denied.  The witness, furthermore, is speaking in Croatian, which is

23     also not prohibited, so I believe this is all speculation.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is a statement, but the Prosecution is

25     examining the witness.  Please carry on, Mr. Thayer.

Page 7952

 1             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I have no further

 2     questions.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The witness wants to add something to your last

 4     question.

 5             MR. THAYER:

 6        Q.   Please go ahead.

 7        A.   Mr. Tolimir probably doesn't know, but there is no Bosnian

 8     language in Srebrenica.  It is not denied, though, but the children are

 9     still following the Belgrade curriculum and not the curriculum of either

10     the RS or Sarajevo, as it should be.  And this is the latest information

11     from Srebrenica.  That is precisely why my children do not attend school

12     in Srebrenica.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Mindua has a question.

14                           Questioned by the Court:

15             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Question for clarification,

16     General Tolimir said that you speak Croatian.  Do you confirm this?  Is

17     that what you speak?

18        A.   The Serbo-Croat language had been used in the former Yugoslavia.

19     It is for that reason that we all understand each other, the Croats,

20     Serbs, and Bosniaks.

21             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, I know that.  But what

22     language are you speaking right now to us?

23        A.   I take it to be the Bosnian language.

24             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Okay.  But you also said that

25     today in the curriculum -- in Srebrenica it's the Belgrade curriculum

Page 7953

 1     that is taught, is that what you said?  And this is the reason why you do

 2     not send your children to school in Srebrenica; is that true?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

 6             MR. THAYER:  If I may just follow up on the question from

 7     Honourable Judge Mindua.

 8        Q.   Again, which dialect are you speaking?

 9        A.   The Ijekavian dialect.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I ask you again something about the language

11     you use.  We know about the Serbo-Croatian language, but you told us

12     there is no specific Bosnian language.  Serbo-Croatian language is

13     composed of two quite similar but distinct languages, Serbian and

14     Croatian.  What is your language you are using?

15        A.   When the former Yugoslavia fell apart, in Croatia, Serbia, and

16     Bosnia, the people assumed the right to speak the way they wanted to.

17     I'll take the example of the word "coffee."  In Serbia, it is "kava," in

18     Bosnia it is "kahva," and in Croatia it is "kafa."  The meaning is the

19     same but there are some changes in the word itself.  That's why I believe

20     Bosnian is separate.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  And which language are you using?

22     I'm only speaking about your personal experience.

23        A.   I believe it is the Bosnian language.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Mindua has another question.

25             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I would like to insist on this to

Page 7954

 1     make sure that I really understand what we are talking about.  You said

 2     that you speak Bosnian, the Bosnian language.  To one of the questions

 3     put to you by Mr. Thayer, you said that it was the Ijekavian dialect.

 4     Now, as far as the Defence is concerned, and General Tolimir, you are

 5     speaking Croatian, but he speaks Serbian, so could you tell me exactly

 6     whether you deny what General Tolimir said and that you are not speaking

 7     Croatian?  So please confirm that you are speaking Bosnian but in the

 8     Ijekavian dialect.  Is that what you wanted to say?

 9        A.   Yes.  That is the language of my state.

10             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you very much.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, you will be pleased to hear that this

12     concludes your examination.  You are now free to return to your normal

13     activities and your usual life.  The Chamber would like to thank you that

14     you came here to The Hague and to assist us in finding the truth.  Thank

15     you very much again.  And the court usher will assist you leaving the

16     courtroom.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just wanted to thank you for

18     enabling me to testify in an orderly fashion, that the truth come out and

19     that it is only the truth that is seriously considered before this

20     Tribunal and that all those who deserve to be sanctioned be indeed

21     punished.  I apologise if I occasionally overreacted but that was for

22     emotional reasons.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for these words, and good-bye again.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you as well, good-bye.

25                           [The witness withdrew]

Page 7955

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, is the next witness prepared and

 2     ready?

 3             MR. THAYER:  He is waiting in the wings, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The next witness should be brought in.

 5                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, I was told that there's no witness in

 7     the waiting room.

 8             MR. THAYER:  The plan and instructions we had in place last night

 9     were that he were to be brought down at 0900, so there obviously was

10     something not communicated or lost somewhere.  It may be just a

11     five-minute recess, or if we can just stand by and we don't need to go

12     anywhere, just give us a minute, I can run out and see what is going on.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think the court usher has left the courtroom to

14     find out what is happening.  The Court Officer is calling.  We should

15     just wait here for a moment.

16                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I was told that the witness was waiting in a

18     wrong waiting room but he will be brought to the courtroom immediately.

19             MR. THAYER:  Well, perhaps, Mr. President, we could use this time

20     to discuss the scheduling issue.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, please.

22             MR. THAYER:  The -- as I understood from, I think, what

23     Mr. McCloskey had mentioned, there was some discussion that the Chamber

24     might begin sitting on Monday, 17 January in light of the Orthodox

25     holiday, thereby extending the recess, I think, a week.  I notice that on

Page 7956

 1     the court calendar had been issued we are scheduled to sit on the 10th.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I interrupt you for a moment.  It was not

 3     conveyed in a proper way to those who are responsible for the court

 4     calendar.  That was corrected yesterday and you will see on the next

 5     update that we are not sitting in the week commencing on the 10th of

 6     January.

 7             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  Very well.  That's good to know,

 8     Mr. President.  What I think -- I see the witness is here.

 9                           [The witness entered court]

10             MR. THAYER:  I think what we'll try to do, then, is schedule

11     Dr. Haglund perhaps to be the first witness after the recess.  We'll

12     explore that, but that may work out the best, give him sufficient time,

13     but I still think it will probably be videolink testimony, just to be on

14     the safe side.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

16             Good morning, sir.  Welcome to the Tribunal.  Good morning.

17     Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the card which is shown to

18     you now.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.  I solemnly declare

20     that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You will be examined today here in the trial, and

24     the first putting questions to you is Mr. Thayer of the Prosecution.

25     Mr. Thayer.

Page 7957

 1             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I forgot to advise the

 2     Court that, in line with the prior trial and the status of the witness, a

 3     caution is in order, I think, as just a matter of routine for this

 4     witness, pursuant to Rule 90.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  According to this information and advice, I would

 6     like to give some information for the witness.  Sir, it's not the first

 7     time that you are testifying here in the Tribunal, but I have to give you

 8     an information and a kind of warning.  Our Rules of Procedure and

 9     Evidence have a Rule 90, and in paragraph (E) of this rule, there is

10     written the following, and I quote:

11             "The witness may object to making any statement which might tend

12     to incriminate the witness.  The Chamber may, however, compel the witness

13     to answer the question.  Testimony compelled in this way shall not be

14     used as evidence in a subsequent prosecution against the witness for any

15     offence other than false testimony."

16             Sir, do you understand that?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Mr. Thayer.

19                           WITNESS:  DOBRISAV STANOJEVIC

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21                           Examination by Mr. Thayer:

22        Q.   Good morning to you, sir.

23        A.   Good morning.

24        Q.   We haven't properly met since June of 2007.  I'm sorry I couldn't

25     properly introduce myself to you on Sunday, owing to my illness, but I'll

Page 7958

 1     do so now, and good morning to you again.  Could you state your name, for

 2     the record, please.

 3        A.   Dobrisav Stanojevic.

 4        Q.   And, sir, do you recall testifying in this courtroom for just

 5     over two days on the 19th and 20th of June, 2007, in the Popovic case?

 6        A.   In the Borovcanin case.

 7        Q.   Yes, indeed, he was one of the seven accused, that's correct.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And did you have a chance to listen to that testimony this past

10     Sunday?

11        A.   Yes, I did.

12        Q.   And can you attest that that recording accurately reflects what

13     you said during your testimony in the prior case?

14        A.   That is correct.

15        Q.   And can you attest that if you were asked the same questions

16     again today that you were asked back in 2007, that your answers would be

17     the same?

18        A.   I would definitely provide the same answers.

19             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, at this time the Prosecution would

20     tender P01263 and 1264, the under seal and public versions of the

21     witness's prior testimony in the Popovic matter.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  These exhibits will be received.  The exhibit

23     P1263 under seal.

24             MR. THAYER:  And at this time, Mr. President, the Prosecution

25     would tender associated exhibits P1265 to 1277, and I'll reserve

Page 7959

 1     discussion and usage on the remaining exhibits for a little while.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  These documents will be received.  Are they all

 3     public?  I think so, yes.  Please continue.

 4             MR. THAYER:

 5        Q.   Now, sir, in the prior trial, I'm sure you recall being shown a

 6     number of photographs and video-clips from footage that was taken in

 7     Potocari and along the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road on the 12th and 13th

 8     of July, 1995; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes, I recall that.

10        Q.   Okay.  There were a couple of specific photographs that were

11     shown to you in the prior trial that, through administrative error,

12     didn't make it into the record yet in this case, so what I'd like to do

13     is show you some additional photos.  I don't think they will be any

14     surprise to you, but I want to show you some photos and just see if you

15     can identify the people in them.  You were actually, I can tell you,

16     shown these photos, and I'll cite to you what you said to them before,

17     but we just need to do it in front of this Trial Chamber and it shouldn't

18     take too much time to do so.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, are you going to read a witness

20     summary?

21             MR. THAYER:  I knew there was something I forgot, Mr. President.

22     It seemed we were moving a little too quickly.  Thank you for reminding

23     me, I do have a summary to read.  I'll do that now.

24             The witness was born in Zalazje, Srebrenica municipality, and was

25     raised in Srebrenica.  In the spring of 1992 he joined a unit called the

Page 7960

 1     Srebrenica Guard which consisted of about 30 soldiers who were refugees

 2     from Srebrenica.  The Srebrenica Guard was dismantled in mid-1992 and

 3     became part of the Bratunac Brigade's 3rd Battalion.  In March of 1993,

 4     he transferred from the VRS to the MUP.  After undergoing a police

 5     training course in Jahorina, he was assigned to the police station in

 6     Bratunac where he worked as a beat police officer.

 7             At the time, Luka Bogdanovic was the police station chief,

 8     Ljubisa Borovcanin was the police station commander.  Sometime in late

 9     1993 or early 1994, Borovcanin left to take up a new function in the

10     Special Police.

11             The witness also described his duties as a member of the 1st

12     Company of the Zvornik PJP.  The 1st Company was comprised of policemen

13     from the Zvornik, Milici, Vlasenica, Sekovici, Bratunac, and Skelani

14     police stations.  Radomir Pantic was the commander of the 1st Company,

15     which was divided into three platoons.  The witness's platoon was

16     commanded by Dusan Micic.

17             The witness received an order on 11 July 1995 to report to the

18     police station with all his combat equipment and to wait for the rest of

19     the 1st Company.  He waited there for awhile, then left and returned the

20     following morning, 12 July.  He joined the 1st Company at Yellow Bridge

21     where they waited until a dead Bratunac Brigade de-miner was taken away.

22     They then deployed in a firing line and moved towards Potocari.  Their

23     task was to search the terrain, take the right-hand side of the hill, and

24     go all the way down to Potocari to look for any remaining Muslim

25     soldiers.  At that time they had heard that the VRS had taken Srebrenica

Page 7961

 1     and that there were civilians in Potocari.

 2             Pantic and Micic were with them and communicated by Motorola

 3     radio.  There were also Special Police Brigade and VRS units advancing

 4     with them.  They covered the area on the right-hand side of the road

 5     leading to Srebrenica, and since they encountered no one, they descended

 6     from the hills to the road after an hour or two.  Before they reached the

 7     part of the road which the UN had cordoned off with yellow tape, they

 8     encountered a group of civilians crossing the road.  When he reached the

 9     cordoned off area, the witness saw VRS and Special Police Brigade

10     soldiers already there, along with UNPROFOR members.  His unit stayed

11     there for awhile until General Mladic arrived, after which the witness

12     took up a position in an orchard near the zinc factory for an hour or

13     two.  From his position, he saw two or three buses and trucks arrive,

14     make a U-turn, and park, waiting to board civilians.  He did not see any

15     Muslim men being separated or detained, nor did he see anyone board the

16     buses.

17             Before the civilians began boarding the buses, his unit received

18     an order to return to Bratunac, so their bus arrived and took them back

19     to Bratunac where they awaited further orders for a while.  They then

20     received orders to board the bus, which headed towards Zvornik and

21     stopped at Sandici in the early evening.  They deployed along the road

22     and were told to secure it.  Also deployed on the road were a Praga, a

23     three-barrelled combat vehicle, and a tank.

24             At approximately 0400 or 0500 hours on 13 July, the witness was

25     awakened by an explosion and shooting.  Three 1st Company officers were

Page 7962

 1     wounded and one, Zeljko Ninkovic, a police officer from the Bratunac

 2     police station, was killed.  After this incident, the witness moved up

 3     the road and took cover in a destroyed house.  While there, he saw people

 4     coming out of the woods, passing the house, and sitting down in a meadow

 5     across the road.  Sometime that morning he returned to Bratunac to

 6     organise the funeral for Ninkovic.

 7             The witness was also shown numerous photo stills from the

 8     Srebrenica trial video and identified various soldiers he recognised.

 9        Q.   Now, sir, let me just follow up with a couple of questions and

10     then we'll deal with some of these photographs.  The Trial Chamber has

11     heard a little bit of testimony about these units that we referred to as

12     PJP units.  The Trial Chamber has heard that they are comprised of

13     policemen from various police stations.  Now, sir, normally in the MUP

14     what colour uniform does a civilian police officer wear?  And I'm talking

15     about July of 1995, for example.

16        A.   Well, during the normal activities the police wore camouflage

17     blue uniforms, and when we went into combat, we would put on green

18     camouflage, like the army, similar to the military camouflage.

19        Q.   Okay.  And was every normal beat police officer also a member of

20     a PJP unit, or only some?

21        A.   All of us.  We were distributed, I think, into six companies, and

22     I belonged to the first one.

23        Q.   And you describe that there were three platoons in the 1st

24     Company of the Zvornik PJP.  Do you recall which platoon number you were

25     in?  If you don't, that's okay, just wondering if you recall whether it

Page 7963

 1     was 1, 2, or 3 platoon?

 2        A.   I think it was the 3rd Platoon.

 3        Q.   And the Trial Chamber has heard reference to this location called

 4     Yellow Bridge, in your language Zuti Most.  Can you tell the Trial

 5     Chamber where that was located in relation to the Srebrenica enclave?

 6        A.   The Yellow Bridge is on the main road leading to Srebrenica from

 7     Bratunac and it's roughly on the boundary between Bratunac and Srebrenica

 8     municipalities and it's about eight kilometres away from Srebrenica,

 9     heading towards Bratunac.

10        Q.   And how close was it to Potocari?

11        A.   It's about three, perhaps four kilometres to Potocari.

12        Q.   And at Yellow Bridge, was there any VRS presence or check-point

13     of any kind?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And do you recall whether that check-point was manned by any

16     person in particular?

17        A.   I can't remember.  The Yellow Bridge is the place where I turned

18     to the right, and the check-point was a bit further ahead.

19        Q.   Okay.  Did you ever hear of a Bratunac Brigade soldier with a

20     nickname Jovo who perhaps had been a Russian teacher?  Does that ring any

21     bells?  If not, I'll move on.

22        A.   I think I heard the name.  He was called "Jovo the Russian."  I

23     think I know the man even.

24        Q.   Okay.  And did you ever hear that he manned that check-point?

25     And again, if you didn't, that's fine.  Just checking what your knowledge

Page 7964

 1     of that check-point was.

 2        A.   I don't know if he was there.

 3        Q.   Do you recall whether there was also a UN observation point

 4     somewhere in the vicinity of Yellow Bridge?

 5        A.   Yes, not far from our own check-point at the Yellow Bridge, it

 6     was perhaps 200, 300 metres towards Srebrenica.

 7        Q.   I'd like to show you two aerial photographs you marked in the

 8     last trial just to give the Trial Chamber a better overview of some of

 9     your movements during this period.

10             MR. THAYER:  May we have P1276 on e-court, please.

11        Q.   Do you have an image in front of you, sir, on the screen?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Okay.  Do you remember making these markings on the 19th of June,

14     2007?

15        A.   I remember.

16        Q.   Okay.  And do you recall what the arrow there that we can see in

17     red moving along the road in front of the UN compound depicts?

18        A.   I think it was the route along which my unit moved.

19        Q.   Okay.  And then we see a small circle, if you move further right,

20     at the intersection of that main road and perhaps a smaller path or a

21     road that branches off to the right as you head south towards Srebrenica.

22     Do you remember circling that area and identifying that as the position

23     where you encountered a group of civilians who subsequently moved across

24     the road to the UN base?

25        A.   Yes, I remember.

Page 7965

 1        Q.   Okay.  And if we move further to the right, there's a small X.

 2     Does that represent the orchard that you testified about where you

 3     positioned yourself for some time on that day?

 4        A.   That's correct.

 5             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  Thank you, we are done with this exhibit.

 6     May we see P1277 for a moment.

 7        Q.   We can see here we have an aerial image of the area of Sandici.

 8     Do you remember -- if we see the marking number 1, do you remember

 9     identifying that as the small house where you were positioned for a

10     period of time along that road next to the meadow or near the meadow at

11     Sandici?

12        A.   Yes, I marked it.

13        Q.   And do you recall what you have marked on this image as number 2?

14     Do you recall what that is there where you wrote the number 2?

15        A.   That's a destroyed house by which civilians passed going towards

16     the meadow which I marked with number 3.

17        Q.   And is it fair to say that that destroyed house was much larger,

18     even though it was destroyed, than the small house which you've marked as

19     number 1?

20        A.   It's certainly much bigger.

21        Q.   And do you recall it being on a slight hill?

22        A.   That's number 2 on a small hillock.

23        Q.   Okay.  Thanks for the clarification.  And what have you marked as

24     number 3 here, sir?

25        A.   Number 3 is the meadow.  When we got approval from our commander

Page 7966

 1     that we may go organise the funeral, on the way where I marked the meadow

 2     is where I saw people in civilian clothing, mostly men, a certain number

 3     of them.  I can't say how many, I didn't count them.

 4        Q.   And lastly, what is the X that you've marked on this image?

 5        A.   That's where I was in the night when we were attacked when our

 6     colleague Mr. Ninkovic was killed, when he was just next to me, and other

 7     colleagues were wounded, and what is marked by X is the place where I

 8     was, together with Ninkovic when he got killed.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Let's look at some additional photographs.

10             MR. THAYER:  If we may have P1369, please.  This is the trial

11     video stills book about which Ms. Gallagher has been testifying.  Now,

12     Mr. President, what I propose to do is show various photographs that are

13     contained within this book.  There we go, got it.  That's the correct

14     book.  I just wanted to orient the Trial Chamber to the exhibit we are

15     talking about, this book of video stills that Investigator Gallagher has

16     been testifying about.  I'm going to show the witness some photographs

17     that are contained in this book but without the identifying information

18     that the Trial Chamber will recall is contained in the book, so it will

19     be just the photographs that form the basis for some of the pages in this

20     book.  So for the Trial Chamber's references, we don't need to go to

21     these pages because I don't want to show the witness the actual pages

22     from the book, only the photographs.  Ms. Stewart will show the

23     photographs from Sanction, but just for the Court's reference, we are

24     looking at a photograph which is at page 45 of 65 ter 369.  We can see

25     this image bears 0216-4836.

Page 7967

 1        Q.   Sir, we can see a young man in a uniform carrying what appears to

 2     be an automatic rifle, with his arm slightly raised, to the right of the

 3     image.  Can you identify who that man is, sir?

 4        A.   That's me.

 5             MR. THAYER:  Okay.  And just for the record, the witness was

 6     shown this photograph at transcript page 12892 and it's identified in the

 7     prior record by that ERN that I quoted a moment ago.

 8        Q.   I'd like to show you another image.  This is from page 79 of 65

 9     ter 1369.  This is at 0216-4737 in the Popovic trial, and this is at

10     transcript page 12895.  You were shown this image, and again it's ERN

11     0216-4737.  You testified that, "This is a colleague from Milici whose

12     name I don't know.  He belonged to the Milici police station."  Do you

13     recall saying that about this individual?

14        A.   Yes, that's correct, although this image, or rather, his face

15     here is not very clear, but I'm pretty sure it's one of the members of

16     the police station in Milici.

17        Q.   Okay.  Just to be clear, we are referring to the man who has got

18     an automatic rifle balanced on his shoulder, with his profile to the

19     camera; is that correct?

20        A.   Correct.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  May I ask a question.  You told us that this

22     colleague was from the Milici police station.  Was he at that time a

23     normal police officer of that police station or a PJP member?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All of us were regular policemen in

25     our stations and we were engaged, as required, to join the 1st Company of

Page 7968

 1     the PJP.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now you are referring to yourself and to the

 3     police officer, your colleague, depicted in this photograph; is that

 4     correct?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that applies to the two of us

 6     and all the others as well.  Everyone in the 1st Company were

 7     professional policemen and we regularly responded to call-ups from the

 8     centre to join the 1st Company.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Mr. Thayer, please carry

10     on.

11             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12        Q.   Just one last photograph.  This is at page 80 of 65 ter 1369.  We

13     see here an image with the ERN 0216-4735, and again at transcript page

14     12895 you testified that you couldn't be 100 per cent sure but you think

15     that this individual in the middle of the image with the white headband

16     is somebody named -- nicknamed "Cop," that you are about 70/30 per cent

17     sure that it was somebody that you knew as "Cop."  Do you recall saying

18     that in the prior trial, sir?

19        A.   Cop was his nickname.  I stand by that.  I believe it's him but

20     I'm not 100 per cent sure.

21        Q.   Okay.  Sir, I want to show you just one other document, and let's

22     start off by showing it on e-court and see how successful we are.  If we

23     need to go to the original version, we can put it on the ELMO or I can

24     give it to you to look at and you can also read off the screen.

25             MR. THAYER:  May we have P01042, please.  And we'll need to go to

Page 7969

 1     page 27 of the original document.  We don't really need the English

 2     translation right now, it won't be particularly helpful.  And if we could

 3     blow it up a little bit, thank you.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think, Mr. Thayer, this was received under seal

 5     in the Popovic trial.  It should not be broadcast.

 6             MR. THAYER:  That's right, Mr. President, we should probably err

 7     on the side of caution with respect to this document.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  However, we would like to have it on the screen.

 9             MR. THAYER:

10        Q.   Meanwhile, you were shown this document in the last trial, and

11     for the record, that was at transcript page 12918.  What it is, just to

12     refresh your recollection, is a log-book, a patient log from the Bratunac

13     health centre, which shows the admission of various patients in 1995.

14     You were shown that by one of the Defence counsel in the prior trial and

15     I just want to show it to you here.  It's somewhat hard to read, but do

16     you see the date of 13 July 1995 and a time of 0445 hours?

17        A.   Yes, I see that.

18        Q.   And that corresponds to entry number 1481; is that correct?

19        A.   Right.

20        Q.   And who is the individual who is listed here as the patient?

21        A.   That's a colleague who worked with me, Zeljko Ninkovic.  He got

22     killed that morning.

23        Q.   And does this time here -- or can you tell the Trial Chamber how

24     the time that's listed here, 0445 hours, corresponds to your recollection

25     of the timing of the events that you've told the Trial Chambers about

Page 7970

 1     this attack that occurred on the road where Mr. Ninkovic was killed?

 2        A.   I think that's what I said, more or less, and when I see this

 3     time indication here, it's right, because we were in position, most of us

 4     were exhausted and were sleeping, and that's probably when it happened.

 5             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, the Prosecution would tender P010042

 6     (sic).  I think it's been -- it may have been MFI'd in connection with

 7     another witness, but just to be on the safe side I wanted to show the

 8     witness the document so that it could be properly tendered, and we'll do

 9     so now.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received under seal.

11             MR. THAYER:  Now, Mr. President, with respect to the remainder of

12     the documents that are on the Prosecution's exhibit list, I think we can

13     take care of those matters outside the presence of the witness, if the

14     Chamber prefers.  It's purely administrative matters.  I think we can

15     wait until the conclusion of the cross-examination to do that rather than

16     taking up time when he is here, although I'm happy to do it, if the Court

17     pleases, right now while we are in the tendering process.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If it's not too time consuming, you should do it

19     in the usual way with the witness.  But let me ask something to the last

20     document, P1042, which we just received under seal, does that contain

21     many pages?  Because you were referring only to page 27.  Is it the whole

22     book or only this page?

23             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, it is a photocopy of the whole

24     log-book.  Like most of the log-books and notebooks that we come into

25     possession of, our practice is to put the whole log-book in even though

Page 7971

 1     we are going to refer only to a page or two.  I can tell the Trial

 2     Chamber that there are other relevant pages in this book that other

 3     witnesses unconnected to the current witness will testify about in the

 4     future.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for this additional information.

 6                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, did you want to get the floor?  Yes,

 8     please.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I wanted

10     to say that the witness testified only about Zeljko Ninkovic and not the

11     others from the list.  For the sake of the witness, given that the

12     witness was cautioned, Mr. Thayer should limit his questions only to the

13     extent of the testimony.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

15             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, that objection has no basis in fact

16     or law.  There's no reason to attach any potential exposure, criminal

17     exposure of this witness to anything that's in that notebook.  General

18     Tolimir knows that there are other relevant pages in this book, so

19     there's no valid reason to deny its admission on such a basis.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In any case, we must have our first break now and

21     we will resume at 11.00.  The court usher will assist you, sir, during

22     the break.

23                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Thayer.

Page 7972

 1             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  May we just go into

 2     private session for one more question for the witness.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We turn into private.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are now in public session.

24             MR. THAYER:  The Prosecution would withdraw its motion to tender

25     two exhibits, P010097 (sic)and P01278 with respect to this witness

Page 7973

 1     because they have been superseded by 65 ter 1369, which is the video

 2     stills book that Ms. Gallagher has been testifying about.  The two

 3     exhibits I just mentioned were older versions of that video stills book.

 4     Virtually all of the photographs that are contained in the older versions

 5     are contained in the version 1369, which the Trial Chamber has seen a lot

 6     of, so I thought I would just make things a little bit cleaner without

 7     loading up e-court with redundant, out-of-date exhibits which will be

 8     replaced by 1369 in any event.  So we withdraw 1097 and 1278, which is 65

 9     ter 6620.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Does the Defence take a position on

11     that?  Mr. Tolimir or Mr. Gajic?  Mr. Gajic.

12             MR. GAJIC:  [Interpretation] Mr. President, no objection.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Chamber would like to check these documents

14     and we come back to that application later.

15             MR. THAYER:  And finally, Mr. President, the Chamber will note

16     that we have P1279 also on the list.  That in the meantime, since the

17     generation of this list, has been admitted as an exhibit through

18     Mr. Blaszczyk and his road book testimony, so that, I think, is already

19     an exhibit in this case.  And that concludes my direct examination.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Judge Mindua has a

21     question.

22             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

23             Sir, we have seen some pictures where we could see some members

24     of the PJP from the Milici police station and they were guarding

25     prisoners.  I'm thinking about page 79 taken from the 65 ter list and

Page 7974

 1     document 1369 presented by the Prosecutor.  On this page we saw a picture

 2     of Mr. Osmanovic if I'm not mistaken about his name, and he was calling

 3     his son called Nermin.  And you did recognise Milici policeman, and this

 4     policeman was carrying an automatic gun.  So you did tell us that these

 5     members of the Milici police station were called in order to rally the

 6     1st Company of the PJP unit.  And I would like to ask you a question.  Of

 7     course if you don't know, you don't know, it's not a problem, but I have

 8     a few questions.  My first question is as follows:  What was the role

 9     played by these members of the 1st Company of this PJP unit?  What did

10     they do with their prisoners?  That was my first question, because we did

11     see some members of your unit next to the prisoners and they were

12     carrying guns, so I would like to know what was your role regarding the

13     prisoners.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not participate in that.  Up

15     until the moment when I was there, just before I left, on the left-hand

16     side on the meadow I marked, I could see the people who had surrendered.

17     They were secured not only by the people of my unit, but there were some

18     other units as well.  I don't know anything about their role, though.  I

19     didn't hear about that from anyone.  They were probably there to prevent

20     them from escaping, although I don't know what the exact orders may have

21     been.

22             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I have a second question, and of

23     course if you know, you know; if you do not know, it's not a problem.

24     Who gave an order to these Milici policemen for them to rally the 1st

25     Company?  Who gave that order?

Page 7975

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All stations that were part of the

 2     CSB in Zvornik received dispatches.  Such dispatches are used to inform

 3     the stations what members should be dedicated to the unit, and then the

 4     stations notify the individual policemen who gather at designated

 5     assembly points.  In this particular case, that assembly point was in

 6     Bratunac.

 7             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Do you know which authority sent

 8     these dispatches?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I only know it arrived from the CSB

10     in Zvornik.

11             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Fair enough.  Thank you.  And I

12     have another question.  During the mission, your colleagues who were part

13     of the 1st Company, were they placed under the authority of the police or

14     of the army?  Once they did take part, once they participated to the work

15     with the prisoners, who did they report to?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm really not familiar with the

17     chain of command.  We were subordinated to our officers first and

18     foremost, but I don't know whether they received orders from the army or

19     the top of the police.  I know that on occasion when we were in the field

20     we jointly worked with the army, but I don't know who was in actual

21     command.

22             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, sir.  This is

23     quite enough for me.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Nyambe has another question.

25             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Yes, I have a clarification, rather, an

Page 7976

 1     amplification.  When Mr. Thayer was summarising your evidence, what you

 2     were going to say, and correct me if I'm wrong, page 23, lines 1 to 9 of

 3     today's testimony, he stated that you were awakened by an explosion and

 4     shooting.  "The 1st Company officers were wounded and one Ninkovic, a

 5     police officer from the Bratunac police station was killed."  Who was

 6     shooting at you in this incident?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The members of Muslim units, of

 8     their army.

 9             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.  Then the second question is:  Within

10     the same page and line numbers, Mr. Thayer said, "While there, you saw

11     people coming out of the woods, passing the house and sitting down in a

12     meadow across the road."  Who are these people that you saw coming down

13     and sitting down in the meadow across the road?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were people from Srebrenica,

15     Muslims.  I don't know whether they were army members or civilians.

16     There were some in uniform, though, but I don't know who belonged to what

17     entity, but those were the people who were there.

18             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you for your clarification.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now I have a question for you, sir:  We have seen

20     today a photograph where you identified yourself.  We saw a soldier and

21     you said this is -- or a policeman, and you said it would be yourself,

22     and there were some women on the left side of this photograph.  Do you

23     recall that?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Can you tell me what was happening at that point

Page 7977

 1     in time with these women?  Where did they come from?  What was the reason

 2     why they were there?  What did they tell you?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we arrived from the direction

 4     of Bratunac on the right-hand side, where the electrical power-station

 5     is, a group of women and children arrived.  Some women were obviously

 6     scared and crying.  I spoke to them, saying that they shouldn't be

 7     afraid, that they should feel free to approach us.  I asked them where

 8     they were headed to and they answered the base of the UN.  One of our

 9     officers who was there, although I don't remember who exactly, told me to

10     escort them.  He -- I simply had to see them across the road, perhaps 20

11     or 30 metres down the road, where DutchBat members were.  I escorted them

12     to that point and they were received there when the soldiers opened the

13     gate.  They entered the base, and that was it.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Now, Mr. Tolimir has

15     questions for you during his cross-examination.  Mr. Tolimir.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I'd like

17     to greet the witness, and I wish him a pleasant stay here and a safe

18     return home.  May God bless him.  I have no questions of him since most

19     of the questions I intended to put were put by the Bench itself.

20     Everything is clear and hence I'm left with no questions.  Thank you.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, General.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is, I think, a good indication of good

23     co-operation in the courtroom.  Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir, no

24     cross-examination, and therefore we don't see a reason for

25     re-examination.  No more questions for the witness.  In that case, I can

Page 7978

 1     tell you, and you will be pleased, that this concludes your examination

 2     today.  You are now free to return to your normal activities and to your

 3     home city.  Thank you that you were able to come here to The Hague and to

 4     assist us.  Thank you very much again, and the court usher will help you

 5     and assist you leaving the courtroom.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7                           [The witness withdrew]

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

 9             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I know Mr. Vanderpuye is following

10     the proceedings.  I don't know exactly right now where the next witness

11     is, but he is obviously somewhere nearby.

12                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I was told he is already in the waiting room for

14     the witnesses.

15             MR. THAYER:  Outstanding.  Then I'm sure Mr. Vanderpuye will be

16     here in a moment.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

18             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, that concludes my business before the

19     Trial Chamber.  May I be excused for the rest of the proceedings?

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, thank you very much for your

21     attendance.  Have a successful working day.

22             Good morning, Mr. Vanderpuye.  Welcome to the courtroom.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.  Good morning, Mr. President; good

24     morning, Your Honours; good morning, everyone.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I was told the next witness is ready and waiting

Page 7979

 1     and should be brought in.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Before I forget, I think for this witness we are

 5     going to request a Rule 90 caution.  He has maintained the status of a

 6     suspect since the very beginning, since his testimony, I think, in the

 7     Blagojevic case through the Popovic case.  So I would ask that that

 8     instruction be given to the witness.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning, Mr. Tanic.  Welcome to the

10     Tribunal.  Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the card which

11     is shown to you now.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.  I solemnly declare

13     that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down.  You know

15     you are here in the courtroom and you are obliged to tell the truth and

16     nothing but the truth; however, on the request of the Prosecution, I

17     would like to read out an article, Rule of our Rules of Procedure and

18     Evidence, Rule 90(E), and I quote:

19             "A witness may object to making any statement which might tend to

20     incriminate the witness.  The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to

21     answer the question.  Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used

22     as evidence in a subsequent prosecution against the witness for any

23     offence other than false testimony."

24             Witness, did you understand this?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did.

Page 7980

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Mr. Vanderpuye has some

 2     questions for you.  Mr. Vanderpuye.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

 4                           WITNESS:  TANACKO TANIC

 5                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 6                           Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

 7        Q.   Once again, good morning.  Good morning to you, Mr. Tanic.

 8        A.   Good morning.

 9        Q.   Just before we get started, I just want to remind you to try to

10     keep your voice up and to speak a little bit more slowly than you would

11     normally so that the interpreters have a chance to translate what you say

12     and what I say to all of the parties.  If there's anything that I ask you

13     that is unclear, please let me know.

14             Now, what I'd like to ask you is do you recall testifying in the

15     case of Prosecutor v. Vujadin Popovic et al. on 23 and 24 April 2007?

16        A.   Yes, I do.

17        Q.   And have you had an opportunity prior to today to review the

18     entirety of that testimony?

19        A.   Yes; yesterday.

20        Q.   And did you listen to the testimony on an audio recording?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And having listened to your testimony in that case, do you stand

23     by it?  That is, does it fairly and accurately reflect what you would say

24     were you to be examined here today and if you were asked the same

25     questions?

Page 7981

 1        A.   Yes, I do.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  All right.  Mr. President, I would like to

 3     tender Mr. Tanic's prior testimony.  That will be P01177 and P01178, and

 4     I believe there are two associated exhibits with that testimony, which

 5     are P01129 (sic), and P01180.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, which of the two exhibits with

 7     the transcript of the Popovic case are under seal?

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  The first, which is

 9     P01177.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That will be received under seal, and the other,

11     1178, will be received as well.  I don't have a list of the exhibits here

12     with me at the moment, therefore I would like to know whether these other

13     two exhibits, 1129 and 1180, were used with this witness and tendered

14     with the witness in the Popovic case.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  They were used with this witness and tendered

16     through him, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I made a mistake.  It's 1179.  Let's clarify,

18     Mr. Vanderpuye, on page 42, line 6, you were referring to P1129.  Did you

19     misspoke?

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I did.  Thank you, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It should be P1179.  Both exhibits will be

22     received.

23             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Thank you,

24     Mr. President, may I proceed?

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Go ahead.

Page 7982

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thanks.  I have a brief summary of Mr. Tanic's

 2     prior testimony, which I'd like to read into the record.

 3             Tanacko Tanic completed his military service with the JNA in 1981

 4     and was be mobilized into the Territorial Defence in Zvornik, which in

 5     April 1992, became part of the Zvornik Brigade, where he served until his

 6     demobilisation in July 1996.

 7             In July 1995 Tanic was the treasurer in the finance section of

 8     the Brigade command.  He was responsible for paying out soldiers' wages

 9     and dealing with payments and receipts concerning the requirements of the

10     logistics unit.  Tanic was responsible to the assistant commander for

11     logistics, then Sreten Milosevic, as well as to the brigade commander,

12     Vinko Pandurevic, to whom he often reported.

13             On the morning of 14 July 1995, while on duty, Tanic saw a bus

14     filled with Muslim prisoners outside the gates of the Standard Barracks

15     compound.  He later learned that the bus had previously travelled to

16     various area schools to find a place to deposit the prisoners, but the

17     prisoners spent the night on board.

18             At around noon that day, Miladin Mijatovic approached Tanic,

19     directed him to get his rifle, and told Tanic to come with him and a

20     group of other Zvornik Brigade soldiers to Orahovac.  According to Tanic,

21     Mijatovic told him that the prisoners there were escaping.  Tanic, who

22     had already learned -- had already heard the prisoners were being

23     detained in area schools, took up his rifle and, together with other

24     soldiers, boarded a small truck outside the compound which took them to

25     the Grbavci school in Orahovac.  When they arrived, the soldiers

Page 7983

 1     disembarked near a fence surrounding the gym.  Tanic could see members of

 2     the Zvornik Brigade military police and other soldiers already in the

 3     school-yard.  It was readily apparent to Tanic that the prisoners had not

 4     in fact been escaping.

 5             For a time, Tanic stood on the road with Zvornik Brigade military

 6     policemen Cedo Jovic and Goran Bogdanovic, to prevent civilians from

 7     approaching the school-yard.  At some point he entered the school-yard

 8     where he saw the dead bodies of two prisoners.  He saw clothes piled up

 9     in front of the main entrance to the gym and there was even a crutch

10     among them.  Tanic saw Sreten Milosevic and assistant commander for

11     security Drago Nikolic in the school-yard.  He also saw an officer whom a

12     military policeman identified to him as "a security officer from the

13     corps, Vujadin Popovic."

14             Tanic walked some distance away from the school building where he

15     sat on the steps of a nearby cultural centre.  From there he saw a young

16     boy of 10 or 12 years of age accompanied by a VRS soldier walking along

17     the rear of the school building toward the gym, carrying water.

18             Although he had heard rumours about an exchange, and of Drago

19     Nikolic's involvement in such negotiations, it became obvious to Tanic

20     that the prisoners and the children were to be executed.  Indeed, Tanic

21     was asked directly by another soldier, "Come along, do you want to do

22     some shooting?"  Which he testified that he refused.

23             Tanic remained near the school and gym for about two to three

24     hours in all, until the first group of prisoners began boarding a small

25     tarpaulin covered truck to carry them to the execution site.  He then

Page 7984

 1     absented himself from the area and went to the home of a friend about a

 2     kilometre and a half away.  He testified that he remained there until

 3     about 10.00 or 11.00 p.m.  When he left, Tanic began walking along the

 4     roadside toward the Standard Barracks and could hear shooting in the

 5     distance.  He was given a lift in a supply van that soon arrived.  Inside

 6     were Mijatovic, Sreten Milosevic, Mihailo Stevanovic, and another person

 7     from the brigade's logistics unit, and a small boy from Srebrenica.

 8             If we can go into private session, please, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

10                                [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

19             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Although Tanic could not recall whether the van

20     entered the compound upon arriving at Standard, he recalled that the

21     soldiers nevertheless disembarked while the boy and the driver continued

22     on to hospital.  Tanic then returned to his office where he remained for

23     some time.

24             I have to go back into private session, please, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

Page 7985

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President, I have concluded my

15     summary and I have a few additional questions for the witness.  If I

16     could have, please, 65 ter 276 in e-court.  Thank you.

17        Q.   Mr. Tanic, what I'm showing you hear is a 5th December, 1994,

18     document.  It's -- you can see it's issued here from the commander of the

19     1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade, Vinko Pandurevic.  And what it is

20     essentially is an appointment order.  What I'd like to do is to take you

21     to the last page of this document.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Should be page 21 in B/C/S.  First I think in

23     the English we might have to go back one page just so we can see what is

24     written there.  Yes, that's great.  We just need to go to the bottom of

25     the page so we can match them up.

Page 7986

 1        Q.   And you can see at the bottom of the page there, Mr. Tanic, the

 2     heading "Financial Service."  Do you see that, sir?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Under item number 35 there's a person there by the name of Drago

 5     Sakotic.  Do you know who that person is?

 6        A.   He was head of the financial service in that period on the 5th of

 7     September, 1994 -- until the 5th of September, 1994.

 8        Q.   And what was his relation to you?

 9        A.   He was my superior, my direct superior.  I got assignments from

10     him.  He received them from the commander or the deputy commander for

11     logistics, and I received assignments from him.

12        Q.   All right.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Now, let's turn -- we have to go to the next

14     page in the English just for a moment.  Okay.

15        Q.   And under Sakotic's name we can see there is the assignment as

16     chief, and then is it says "until now" chief of the financial services

17     and (b) "on records of the Zvornik MO."  Do you see that?

18        A.   Yes, I see it.

19        Q.   To your recollection, was that accurate?

20        A.   Yes.  He was head of the service from July 1993.  Head of the

21     financial service.  Before him, I was head of the service, and when he

22     arrived in July 1993 he was appointed head and I was appointed treasurer

23     of the Zvornik Brigade.

24        Q.   In fact, we can see that on this particular document under your

25     name which is under item number 36.  Do you see that?

Page 7987

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And under your name, it says "as treasurer," that is, appointed

 3     as treasurer, and "until now, not assigned."  And in 1995 was that the

 4     position that you occupied within the brigade, that is, position of

 5     treasurer of the financial service sector?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I'd like to offer this document

 8     into evidence.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1379, Your Honours.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:

12        Q.   Now, sir, did you have an opportunity to look at this document

13     yesterday when we spoke?

14        A.   [No interpretation]

15        Q.   And having looked at the document and reviewed the individuals

16     that are listed on it, can you tell us whether these individuals were

17     within the Zvornik Brigade command in July of 1995?

18        A.   The majority were, I suppose.  I am not sure about everyone.

19        Q.   All right.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, the last answer of the witness

21     was not interpreted.  You should perhaps clarify with the witness.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I see it in the record.  Thank you,

23     Mr. President.

24        Q.   Mr. Tanic, your answer to my question about whether you an

25     opportunity to look at the document was not recorded in the transcript.

Page 7988

 1     So let me ask you again the question:  Did you have an opportunity to

 2     look at the document before you've testified here today?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  What I'd like to do is I would like to show you

 5     P1126.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think what we should do is probably blow up

 7     the B/C/S version so the witness can see that quite clearly.

 8        Q.   Do you recognise the names that are on this attendance roster?

 9        A.   Most of them.  I recognise most of them.

10        Q.   And what do you recognise them as?  Are these members of the

11     command or members of other units?

12        A.   Of the command.  Of the brigade command.  Yes.

13        Q.   And do you recognise any of the individuals that you referred to

14     during the course of your testimony in the Popovic case?

15        A.   I don't know.  I don't see here.

16        Q.   Do you recognise the name --

17        A.   Yes, I see Miladin Mijatovic, if that's -- if I'm not mistaken,

18     number 16.

19        Q.   Number 16.  Okay.  Do you recognise the name under number 18?

20        A.   Sreten Milosevic.  It's very hard to read this.  I know that man,

21     I just didn't see that name.

22        Q.   That's no problem.  I think we can actually make it a little bit

23     bigger if you would like.  If that would help you.  Is that better?

24        A.   I see Mijatovic, I see Milosevic.  No one else that I can see.

25        Q.   And are you able to understand the captions that you see here,

Page 7989

 1     that is the notations concerning their presence or absence?

 2        A.   Yes.  There is Vinko Pandurevic, the commander.  And Dragan

 3     Obrenovic.  Well-known names.  Hear your question?

 4        Q.   Are you able to recognise what these symbols are concerning the

 5     absence or the presence of the individuals listed in this attendance

 6     roster?

 7        A.   The roster for days of leave and free days was a bit different

 8     but I suppose that that's what the attendance looked like, and the

 9     captions for present or absent are correct.

10        Q.   All right.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Let's go to page 3 of this document, please.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Nyambe has a question.

13             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Can you assist, Mr. Vanderpuye, by going back to

14     the previous document.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Your Honour, I can.  The previous document

16     was --

17             JUDGE NYAMBE:  I think it's the attendance register.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  The previous document --

19             JUDGE NYAMBE:  This, the one we are referring to just now.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  The previous page you mean, then?

21             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Yes.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  We'd have to go to page 1 in B/C/S.

23             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Okay.  Thank you.  I wonder if the witness can

24     assist to indicate on those indications beside each name what indicates

25     present and what indicates absent.

Page 7990

 1             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 2        Q.   Can you tell us by looking at this diagram or, I'm sorry, this

 3     roster what these symbols mean?

 4        A.   Can we move to the next page where my name is, just to see what

 5     is written next to my name.  34, 35, 36, those numbers.  I am number 34.

 6     These little circles, or could it be the Cyrillic letter S which stands

 7     for Off.  It looked a bit different during my tenure.  It was printed on

 8     a computer and certain boxes were shaded, so S means Free or Off, plus

 9     means present.  What these dots mean, I don't know, perhaps sick leave.

10             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you for the clarification.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Did you have an opportunity to see the letter --

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There are some other symbols.  For instance,

13     Bosko Nikolic, number 37, we see a little circle and below that a line.

14     What does that mean?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  I can try to

16     remember, but I think during those days he was on sick leave.  I think he

17     had spine surgery or something.  That's what I suppose it means, but I'm

18     not sure.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Mr. Vanderpuye.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21        Q.   Did you happen to see the letter T on this roster?  Perhaps we

22     can show the -- well, I think we can actually see it on this page as

23     well.  If you look at Drago Nikolic, 24 July.  Can you see that?  He is

24     listed as number 38, and if you look under 24 July, you see the letter T.

25     Do you see it?

Page 7991

 1        A.   Is that T or is it a plus?  24th.  I don't know what that could

 2     mean.  It looks like a T but I can't remember what it means.

 3        Q.   Could T mean "teren"?

 4        A.   I'm not sure.  I'm not sure about these designations.  I remember

 5     only the latest version, the computerised one.  I can't remember.  But I

 6     know they always reviewed who was present, who was absent, and there were

 7     inspection lineups.  These were the days, 13th, 14th, 15th, perhaps not

 8     the 16th, but during those days we were all there.  I don't know what it

 9     could mean.

10        Q.   Does it accurately record your attendance during that period of

11     time, as far as you can recall?

12        A.   Yes, I suppose so.

13        Q.   And it shows plus, that is present, for the 14th of July, right,

14     for you?

15        A.   Yes, yes.

16        Q.   It also shows a plus for the 14th of July for Drago Nikolic,

17     number 38; is that right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And that's -- is that accurate, to your recollection?

20        A.   Well, if I stated I had seen him in Orahovica, then it's correct.

21        Q.   In Orahovica or Orahovac?

22        A.   I don't know whether it's -- I think it's Orahovac.  Some people

23     say Orahovac.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Can we go to the first page, please.

25        Q.   I mentioned before number 18, Milosevic, Sreten.  Does it

Page 7992

 1     accurately record his presence on the 14th of July?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And what about number 16, Mijatovic, Miladin?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I would like to offer this

 6     document into evidence as well.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is this still the document P1126?

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Yes, Mr. President.  It was previously marked

 9     for identification.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I would like to show

12     the witness, please, 65 ter 1691.  Yes, I misspoke again, sorry.  It's

13     P0061, I'm sorry.  65 ter 1128.  Thank you.

14        Q.   Witness, do you see the photograph?  It's on the screen in front

15     of you now.

16        A.   I do.

17        Q.   Can you tell us what it shows?

18        A.   It's a bit dark and unclear, but I see a road, a fence, and what

19     it seems to be a school-yard.  But it's not very clear.  Now, I can see

20     the fence and the courtyard or playground.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  All right.  Maybe we can have somebody take a

22     look at his monitor because it's important that he can see this clearly.

23     I don't know if it has to do with the angle or the contrast or something

24     like that.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Still dark.  Yes, I can see a gym

Page 7993

 1     and a school building.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 3        Q.   All right.  I don't want to keep you standing the whole time, but

 4     if you could just have a seat for a moment and just tell us what you

 5     recognise this as.

 6        A.   The school in Orahovac, and the pitch in front of it as well as

 7     the gym.

 8        Q.   And the fence that we see in the photograph -- well, there appear

 9     to be a few fences, but the fence to the right of the screen which

10     appears to be a relatively low metal fence, do you see that?

11        A.   Yes, I do.

12        Q.   Was that fence there, as you recall, when you were there on 14

13     July 1995?

14        A.   I don't know, I really can't say.  There was a fence but I don't

15     know if it was this one or some other.  There was a fence although I'm

16     not positive if it was this one.

17        Q.   All right.  Was the fence that you saw on 14 July 1995 in the

18     same position relative to this fence that you see in the photograph?

19        A.   The same position.

20        Q.   Do you recognise anything -- anything else about this photograph

21     that you can share with us?  You said that you saw a gym.  Can you tell

22     us which building in this photograph is the gym?

23        A.   Yes, this door, the door just in the back of the pitch.

24        Q.   Why don't I have you mark this photograph.  And I'm going to ask

25     you to use numbers and then we will say what the numbers reflect so the

Page 7994

 1     record is clear.  First let's start with the fence.  If you could put a

 2     number 1 by the fence --

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   -- where you saw it in July 1995.  Now, can you tell us where in

 5     this school-yard --

 6        A.   This should be erased, actually.  I got off the truck where the

 7     group of children is shown, actually.

 8        Q.   Okay.  That's reflected on the far right-hand side of the

 9     photograph; is that right?

10        A.   Yes, where I marked it.

11        Q.   Okay.

12        A.   I was vis-a-vis the main entrance to the gym.

13        Q.   All right.  Can you tell us which building of these buildings

14     here is the school building and which one is the gym?

15        A.   This is the gym, and this is the school building.

16        Q.   Can you do me a favour and please write number 2 where the gym is

17     and number 3 where the school building is.

18        A.   [Marks]

19        Q.   Okay.  Now, you indicated that there was a door just a moment ago

20     in your testimony.

21        A.   The main entrance when one goes from the school to the gym, but

22     this is where the soldiers stood, guarding the door.

23        Q.   Can you put a number 4 to where the soldiers stood guarding the

24     door, please.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 7995

 1        Q.   At a certain point during the course of your testimony you

 2     mentioned that there was a small truck inside the school-yard.

 3        A.   What I could see was that the prisoners started getting on the

 4     truck next to the door.

 5        Q.   All right.  Can you please put a 5 next to where you see the

 6     door.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I'd like to tender this marked

 9     photograph as it is then I'll need it again because I would like to have

10     the witness mark some other things.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This marked photograph will be received.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1380, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Do you need an unmarked version of this

14     photograph or with the markings?

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  An unmarked version, please, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We should have P61 on the screen again.  And now

17     P61, please.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.

19        Q.   Now, Mr. Tanic, you indicated that at a certain point you saw two

20     bodies inside the school-yard.  Can you mark with a number 6 where it is

21     that you saw these bodies?

22        A.   Closer to the fence and the basketball hoop.  Somewhere towards

23     the end of the fence.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Could you mark this position with a number 6.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't write anything.  It doesn't

Page 7996

 1     work.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think we have a technical problem,

 3     Mr. President.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps you should try.

 5                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There will be a technician coming to the

 7     courtroom and helping us with this photograph.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think, Mr. President, that's fine, but I think

 9     we can probably do it the old-fashioned way and I can just have him

10     describe it for the record, if that will move things along.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Okay.

12             MR. VANDERPUYE:

13        Q.   You indicated that the bodies that you saw in the school-yard

14     were towards the entrance; is that right, Mr. Tanic?

15        A.   Closer to the upper part of the yard, the hoop that we can see

16     here.

17        Q.   All right.  So that would be to the left of the screen?

18        A.   Approximately.  Well, I'm not very good with the sides.

19        Q.   But you are indicating what appears to be a basketball hoop on

20     the left side of the photograph; is that fair?

21        A.   Closer to the hoop.  Well, it doesn't want to write.

22        Q.   Yes, I understand, that's why I'm trying to have you describe it

23     for the record.

24        A.   Closer to the fence.

25        Q.   Closer to the fence or closer to the basketball hoop?

Page 7997

 1        A.   Closer to the fence, but on the upper half closer to the -- the

 2     half closer to the hoop.

 3        Q.   All right.  I think I understand.  Closer to the fence on the

 4     side of the photograph where you see the basketball hoop; is that fair?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And at a certain point you indicated in your testimony that you

 7     saw Drago Nikolic.  Can you tell us about where you saw Drago Nikolic?

 8        A.   In the yard.  I don't know where exactly because he was moving

 9     about.

10        Q.   All right.  Within the yard, you mean within the area bounded by

11     the fence in this photograph; is that right?

12        A.   Yes, yes, yes.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, perhaps now it should work, I'm

14     told, and if you want to have some markings on this photograph, you

15     should ask the witness.

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

17        Q.   If you are able to mark at this time, please mark with the letter

18     -- with the number 6 where you saw the dead bodies in the yard.

19        A.   Does it write now?  Yes.  6.  It doesn't look much like a 6, but

20     there you go.  I don't seem to be able to use it right.

21        Q.   Give it one more try because the monitor was moving.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Usher, it could be erased again and the witness

23     should do it again.  To be erased.  Perfect.  And now please mark it

24     again.

25             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

Page 7998

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Great.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you.

 3        Q.   I had asked you if you could tell us the area where you saw Drago

 4     Nikolic.  Can you be more precise than just in the school-yard or not?

 5     If you can't, that's fine too.

 6        A.   In the yard.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Witness, you may sit down again because the

 8     screen is now in an upright position, you should see it a better way.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The picture is dark if I sit.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Well, I'll try to keep you off your feet for

11     little while.

12        Q.   The area that you saw Vujadin Popovic, was that also inside the

13     school-yard?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   All right.

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'd like to tender this photograph as well,

17     Mr. President.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1381, Your Honours.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  May I have 65 ter 1127, please, in e-court.

21        Q.   Okay.  Here we have the same buildings from a different angle.

22     First, do you recognise it?

23        A.   Yes.  Yes, I do.  The building, the yard, and the gym.

24        Q.   Can you indicate with the letter -- with the number 1 where it is

25     that you described the main entrance previously.

Page 7999

 1        A.   Here.

 2        Q.   Can you tell us where it was that you saw clothes piled up, from

 3     this photograph?  Are you able to see it?  And if you can, can you mark

 4     that, please, with a number 2.

 5        A.   Next to the goal, the handball goal.

 6        Q.   And is this the view of the school that you had when you pulled

 7     up in the van after arriving from Standard?  In other words, is this the

 8     area that you pulled up in?

 9        A.   More or less.  Perhaps a bit closer to the entrance.

10        Q.   All right.  Thank you.

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'd like to tender this exhibit as well,

12     Mr. President.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1382, Your Honours.

15             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I'd also like to tender the

16     unmarked photograph as well.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is P61.  I think it's already an exhibit.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  We have it as 65 ter 1127, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Oh, yes, it's 1127 and, if I'm not mistaken, this

20     is also an exhibit or is it only marked for identification?

21                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received as a new document.  Thank

23     you.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1383, Your Honours.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I would like to show

Page 8000

 1     the witness -- if we could show the witness, please, 65 ter 1129.

 2        Q.   Mr. Tanic, do you recognise what is in this photograph?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And are you able to see from this photograph where it was that

 5     the truck carrying the prisoners to the execution site was on 14 July

 6     1995 as you saw it?  I'll ask you to mark that with a number 1.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   And in your testimony you indicated that you were able to see

 9     prisoners being loaded onto the truck; is that right?

10        A.   That's where they started loading them up.  I didn't see much, I

11     just saw that they were getting on the truck.  It all seemed surreal a

12     bit, as if one were looking through a pair of binoculars the other way

13     around.  It all seemed to be quite distant, far more distant than it

14     actually was.

15        Q.   Was the truck being guarded in any way?

16        A.   No, I don't know.  I didn't pay attention.  I was passing by the

17     pitch and the only point when I stood for a longer time was on the road

18     at the far end of the pitch.  I guess we were there to prevent civilians

19     from entering the yard and the school because there were houses around.

20     I spent some time around there, and when I realised that no one was

21     telling me anything to do -- to do anything, I went to the cultural hall

22     and Stevanovic and Savic found me there.  I spent some time in front of

23     the cultural hall on the stairs.

24        Q.   You mentioned Stevanovic and Savic.  Can you tell us their first

25     names, please?  I don't think those were recorded in the record.

Page 8001

 1        A.   Milan Savic and Mihajlo Stevanovic.  They were members of the

 2     logistics company attached to the brigade command.

 3        Q.   All right.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'd like to tender this marked version and also

 5     the unmarked version of this photograph, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The unmarked and the marked version will be

 7     received as exhibits.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibits P1384 and P1385 respectively, Your

 9     Honours.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And which one is the marked one?

11             THE REGISTRAR:  The marked one will be Exhibit P1385.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

13             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I would like to show the witness 65 ter 1137,

14     and we'll need to blow this one up in a very particular way.  All right.

15     We'll have to go to the far right photo and we'll have to blow up, if we

16     could, select the area around the buildings with the red roofs and blow

17     that up.  Probably have to blow it up bigger than that.  Centre in on the

18     grey roof, if you can, and blow it up from there.  Sorry, the grey roof

19     at the top of the screen.  A bit more, please.  All right, that's not

20     bad.

21        Q.   Do you recognise what is depicted here, Mr. Tanic?

22        A.   The school, the yard, the gym, the road.

23        Q.   All right.  I'm going to have you mark this photograph as well.

24     At the school, could you please mark that with number 1.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 8002

 1        Q.   And if you could mark the gym, please, with a number 2.

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3        Q.   And the yard with a number 3.

 4        A.   [Marks]

 5        Q.   Now, are you able to identify from this photograph where it was

 6     that you went with Stevanovic and Savic?

 7        A.   On the road, this way.  I don't know whether this is the cultural

 8     hall or the other one.  I don't know the area and I didn't visit it much

 9     later on.  It could be this one.  And we were somewhere at the back,

10     closer to the school.  That's where we were seated.

11        Q.   All right.  Could you mark that with a number 4, please, the area

12     where you were seated.

13        A.   Well, I suppose -- I don't really know.  I don't know if it was

14     here.  Here, I guess.  I don't know.  I went back there ten years later.

15     There are still stairs there.

16        Q.   All right.  So this is an approximate -- approximately where you

17     were; is that fair to say?

18        A.   Well, yes, what else.

19        Q.   Can you tell us in your testimony you refer to seeing a small boy

20     carrying water toward the gym.  Can you mark on this photograph with a

21     number 5 where that boy was when you saw him?

22        A.   Somewhere here.

23        Q.   And in your testimony you indicated that the boy was accompanied

24     by a soldier.  Is that where the soldier was as well, or was the soldier

25     in a different location?

Page 8003

 1        A.   Yes.  Behind him.

 2        Q.   And if you could just indicate with an arrow the direction that

 3     you saw the boy travelling or walking.

 4        A.   I can only assume.  When we were there it seemed to be a flat

 5     area.  I suppose there must have been a well or a pump somewhere here and

 6     he went from these houses towards the gym, but whether I saw him here

 7     precisely or somewhere else, that's not something I'm certain of.  I know

 8     that there were certain makeshift houses for the teachers and there was a

 9     house for the forest ranger, but I don't know which one it was exactly.

10     Here somewhere, in any case.

11        Q.   All right.  What I'd like you to do is to mark the house where

12     you believe the forest ranger was with a letter [sic] 6 so that we can

13     see it more clearly later on when we have a chance to review the record.

14        A.   I suppose so.  Here.

15        Q.   And just so that we are clear for the record, the direction that

16     you saw the -- you saw the child walking in on this photograph would be

17     from the right towards the left; is that right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   All right.  Thank you.

20             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I'd like to tender this photograph as well,

21     Mr. President, and the underlying clean version of it.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Both versions of this photograph will be received

23     as exhibits.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the unmarked version will be

25     Exhibit P1386, and the annotated version will be Exhibit P1387.

Page 8004

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, could there be a convenient time

 2     for the second break?

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  This is as good a time as any, thank you,

 4     Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, we must have our second break now, of today,

 6     and we will resume in half an hour at 1.00.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye, please carry on.

10             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11        Q.   Mr. Tanic, when we last left off, I had asked you about the child

12     that you saw walking in the direction of the school and the gym.  Let me

13     ask you, how many children did you see in and around the school when you

14     were there on 14 July 1995?

15        A.   Well, I'm not sure now.  I think two, but I could be mistaken.

16     When we were passing by, one of them, one of the boys was carrying a

17     bucket of water.  Whether it was the same boy or another one from the

18     playground, I'm not sure.  I know that a boy was carrying a bucket of

19     water.

20        Q.   When you arrived at the school that afternoon, about how many

21     soldiers did you see in the yard or in front of the school when you got

22     there?

23        A.   Well, they were mainly in the courtyard of the school, or rather,

24     the pitch, not the courtyard.  A larger number, I cannot say exactly how

25     -- I cannot say even roughly, but a large number of soldiers.

Page 8005

 1        Q.   Of the soldiers that you saw there, were these members of the

 2     Zvornik Brigade that you recognised?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And you mentioned previously having been with two military

 5     policemen, Cedo Jovic and Goran Bogdanovic.  Did you see any other

 6     military police in or around the school besides these two individuals?

 7        A.   I probably did see but I don't remember.  I can't say exactly who

 8     they were by name, but of course there was a military police presence

 9     there and there were more than two.

10        Q.   When you went back to the brigade that evening --

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I think, Mr. President, we need to go into

12     private is session for a moment.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 8006

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

 6             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 7        Q.   Following that discussion that night, can you tell us if other

 8     members of the brigade command were also aware of the executions that

 9     took place in Orahovac on 14 July 1995?

10        A.   Did they know, other soldiers, you mean?

11        Q.   Other soldiers and other members of the brigade command.

12        A.   I suppose most of them knew.

13        Q.   And was that because it was common knowledge on that day, or soon

14     thereafter, that these executions had taken place?

15        A.   It was common knowledge, especially a day or two later, but on

16     that day we were all mobilised and organised in one way or another.

17        Q.   When you say it was common knowledge and everyone knew, does that

18     mean -- does that include, I should say, the brigade commander, Vinko

19     Pandurevic; chief of staff, Dragan Obrenovic; assistant commander for

20     security, Drago Nikolic; his assistant, Milorad Trbic?

21        A.   Well, those I mentioned were in Orahovac and they certainly knew

22     what had happened.  As for Dragan Obrenovic and Pandurevic I certainly

23     don't know where they were, where in the field, and what information had

24     reached them on that day.

25        Q.   Do you recall being asked during your testimony in the Blagojevic

Page 8007

 1     case why it was that you had not, yourself, informed Dragan Obrenovic or

 2     Vinko Pandurevic about the executions that took place on 14 July 1995 at

 3     Orahovac?

 4        A.   I don't know exactly what I stated at the time.  But it was not

 5     my duty to inform the commander or the deputy commander or the chief of

 6     staff where I was and what I had done that day.  I only had to report to

 7     my chief and my chief, when he had briefings organised, he attended those

 8     briefings and reported to the commander.  It was not my responsibility to

 9     report to the commander, deputy commander of the brigade, or the chief of

10     staff what I was doing unless they summoned me to give me an assignment

11     or to share information with me that I needed to know for my job, not

12     otherwise.

13        Q.   Let me just refresh your recollection, if I may, with what you

14     said in response to that question.  And this is at page 1224 of the

15     transcript of testimony in the Blagojevic case.  Dated 16 July 2004, I'm

16     at line 4, the question is put to you as follows:

17             "Q. My last question:  I know you were outraged, and I believe

18     you, but could you please explain to us why, why didn't you tell

19     Obrenovic on the 14th, who clearly was there, or the duty officer or

20     Pandurevic when he came back on the 15th, why didn't you ever go to their

21     offices and say this is what happened, something needs to be done?"

22             And your answer is as follows:

23             "That would have been meaningless on my part.  First of all

24     because they knew what had happened and it wasn't necessary for me to

25     inform them.  I don't know what my role would have been if I had gone and

Page 8008

 1     said, Mr. Obrenovic, such and such things had been done.  It was general

 2     knowledge.  It wouldn't have been news to him.  And secondly, there would

 3     have been sanctions against me.  I might have been punished.  I might

 4     have been sent to the front line.  This would have been confrontational."

 5             Then you were asked:

 6             "Well, it might have been well known to Mr. Obrenovic, but you

 7     have no reason to believe that this was known to Mr. Jokic, do you?"

 8             "A. I can say in general that on the territory of the

 9     municipality, everybody knew.  There had been executions, everybody, it

10     was common knowledge."

11             "Q. I'm talking about the 14th."

12             "A. On the 14th.  The news gets around right away.  Everybody

13     knew that executions were going on in Orahovac, some people escaped and

14     there were problems with the pit.  Everyone, everybody knew everything.

15     It went around, well, not exactly the same minute, but ..."

16             Do you recall giving those answers to those questions, Mr. Tanic?

17        A.   I did.  I did say that but I don't see what the problem is.  I

18     was not duty-bound to report to them about it.  I don't know where

19     Obrenovic was exactly in the field, but I suppose he knew.  I didn't see,

20     on that day, the commander of the brigade and I couldn't report to him.

21     But I suppose they all had information.  Those Orahovac executions all

22     took place in one day, and it was public.  It was in a place surrounded

23     by houses.  It's a populated area; people saw it.

24             The same applies to Kozluk near Drina.  People from Serbia could

25     easily see it.  And all the telephones worked, all the communication

Page 8009

 1     lines worked, people moved around, people talked to each other.  There

 2     was no isolation of Orahovac so that nobody could leave and tell about

 3     it.  By evening it was quite normal that huge numbers of people would

 4     know about it.  Now, why nobody did anything about it and why I did not

 5     report to the brigade commander or the chief of staff, I normally never

 6     reported to them unless it had something to do with my job.

 7        Q.   All right.

 8             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you Mr. Tanic, that concludes my direct

 9     examination.  Thank you, Mr. President, I'm done.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Vanderpuye.  Witness,

11     you know now the accused Mr. Tolimir has the right to cross-examine you.

12             Mr. Tolimir, your cross-examination, please.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Once

14     again peace unto this house, I greet everyone present and the witness,

15     and I hope he has a pleasant stay here because he has been under great

16     pressure from his first interview with the Prosecution and today as well

17     when he was cautioned.  I'll start off with my first question related to

18     the last thing Mr. Vanderpuye asked him.

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

20        Q.   The Prosecutor asked you or quoted something that one of the

21     counsel asked you in the Blagojevic case, why you did not inform your

22     superiors in the Zvornik Brigade about what had happened in Orahovac.  My

23     question is:  Was your direct superior there in Orahovac, who is your

24     senior?

25        A.   No, my superior wasn't there.

Page 8010

 1        Q.   Was there anyone senior to you from the brigade?  Because we know

 2     there were a lot of people senior to you.

 3        A.   Yes, there were people senior to me there.

 4        Q.   Was a soldier supposed to inform others in the brigade about what

 5     had happened if his seniors were present in the same place?  Perhaps my

 6     question wasn't clear.  According to the rules of service, is a soldier,

 7     a private, duty bound to inform the commander, deputy commander, and

 8     chief of staff and other seniors in the brigade if his seniors had been

 9     in the same place and were informed?

10        A.   There's absolutely no need for that.

11        Q.   Now, tell us, for the record, what was your responsibility and

12     title as treasurer?

13        A.   I was a private, as you said, and my establishment place was

14     warrant officer.  I'm not sure exactly, or perhaps sergeant 1st class.

15        Q.   I just wanted to go over this most recent ground first, but I

16     have other questions.  What did you say to the Prosecution about --

17        A.   Excuse me?

18        Q.   During your interview with the Prosecution did any of the

19     investigators tell you why you did not report to others in the brigade?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   You said on page 76, "I suppose they knew."

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   If you supposed they knew, was there any need for you to inform

24     them if it was common knowledge?

25        A.   No, there was no need.

Page 8011

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm very sorry, I have to remind you not to

 2     overlap.  You are speaking the same language, Mr. Tolimir and the

 3     witness, and you should pause between question and answer, otherwise the

 4     interpreters have big problems.  Mr. Tolimir.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I

 6     apologise to you and the interpreters alike.

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   I have one more question concerning this event.  In his summary,

 9     Mr. Vanderpuye told you, if you remember - if you don't I'll remind you -

10     he said in the summary describing the event in Orahovac, and I'll try to

11     find exactly what he said, he said that you, when you returned to the

12     office, expressed your disagreement to certain persons about what had

13     happened in Orahovac.  Do you remember that?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Was there anyone else who expressed disapproval or disagreement

16     among soldiers?

17        A.   There was no one.

18        Q.   Were they senior to you, those to whom you expressed your

19     disagreement?

20        A.   They were senior.

21        Q.   Were you supposed to inform anyone up the chain of command if

22     they were senior to you?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   According to their position and their establishment place and

25     your establishment place, were you supposed to inform them?

Page 8012

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   I really apologise now.  I'm finished with this question about

 3     your responsibility or lack of responsibility for informing the competent

 4     commands or the judicial authorities about what had happened.

 5             I'd now like to ask you about this statement.  In fact, it's not

 6     a statement, it's an interview that you gave to the investigators of the

 7     OTP on the 25th of June, 2002 in Banja Luka.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If Aleksandar could kindly give me

 9     the number.

10             Could e-court display P1181.  Could we see page 2 in English and

11     in Serbian so we can all follow.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   We can now see the second page in English and in Serbian.  I

14     can't see that it's really the second page.  It's some other page.  On my

15     second page it says you have the status of suspect here today.  That's

16     what the investigator of the OTP told you.  It's page 3 in this version.

17     Paragraph 2 in Serbian.

18             You see where he tells you right away, "You are here today as a

19     suspect."  And he says, "Based on the information we have gathered so

20     far, that means we can't give you any promises about any change of your

21     status."  Now, bearing in mind this passage, did the investigators who

22     interviewed you on the 25th of June, 2002, tell you why you were a

23     suspect and of which crimes you were suspected?

24        A.   They didn't tell me anything in particular.  I just received a

25     summons stating that I was a suspect and during the interview it was just

Page 8013

 1     stated that I was, that I had been at the place of the incident, carrying

 2     a rifle.

 3        Q.   During the first interview with the OTP were you treated all the

 4     time as a suspect?

 5        A.   Probably.  I didn't have any problems with it at the time.  Now

 6     if it happened all over again, I would ask for a lawyer to be present,

 7     but at that time I didn't feel guilty of anything or responsible for

 8     anything and I realised only later, in hindsight, that I had made a

 9     mistake.

10        Q.   Do you have a feeling or do you believe that you were told you

11     were a suspect during the first interview so that you would give evidence

12     under pressure?

13        A.   No, there was no coercion or pressure.

14        Q.   Look at paragraph 2, line 1.  The investigator says:

15             "After this interview we will analyse what you have told us and

16     then we might, on that basis, review your status."

17        A.   Yes.  At two different hearings before this Tribunal I asked for

18     my status to be changed so that I should no longer be a suspect, but it

19     was said to me that my status cannot be changed.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, we don't find this part of the

21     English version.  It is not paragraph 2, line 1 of page 2.  It must be

22     somewhere else; we don't find it.  Can you help us?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  In Serbian it's page 3,

24     paragraph 2, line 1.  In English it's probably also on page 3.  My

25     assistant will check because he knows the language.

Page 8014

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think we have now page 3 on the screen.  It

 2     should be legible here.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   My question is if you had had an attorney, would he have advised

 6     you on your position and would you have said what you did about what you

 7     did or may not have done?  Would you have felt the same now nine years

 8     later?

 9        A.   Well, I suppose that if I had had an attorney, I may not have

10     become a witness, but in any case, the mistake is mine.  It was because

11     of those who refused to co-operate with the Jokic Defence.  I did not lie

12     but I did expand my original statement and this is what resulted in me

13     appearing as a witness, be it a Defence or a Prosecution witness.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Do you have a feeling that you were accused of

15     something because you were accorded the status of suspect only because

16     you simply shared with them all you knew?

17        A.   I don't have that feeling.  Even in the courtroom today I was

18     told that, because of my position at that time, I became a suspect.  I

19     don't know whether it applied to all those involved, though.

20        Q.   Can you tell us whether after the first conversation from June

21     2002 you received a transcript of the interview conducted with you by the

22     investigators?

23        A.   I received it much later as a Defence witness for Jokic, through

24     his attorney Stojanovic, I believe.

25        Q.   Can you tell the Chamber how many years later that was?

Page 8015

 1        A.   A year and a half or two.  I think it was in 2004 and I provided

 2     the statement in 2002.

 3        Q.   Can you tell us, for the record, whether you ever received that

 4     transcript from the OTP or were you only given it by Mr. Blagojevic's

 5     Defence?

 6        A.   I think I received a transcript during the Popovic et al. case.

 7        Q.   Can you tell us who provided it to you?

 8        A.   The Prosecutor's Office.

 9        Q.   What year?

10        A.   2007.

11        Q.   So it was five years after the interview in Banja Luka that I

12     referred to, in June 2002?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Can you tell the Chamber whether you signed anything after you

15     gave -- you provided the first statement to the investigators in Banja

16     Luka?

17        A.   Did I sign anything?

18        Q.   Did you sign anything on an envelope?

19        A.   I don't remember.  It may have been, but I think there were

20     electronic files and things on tape, but I don't know whether I signed

21     anything.

22        Q.   Thank you.  During the first interview with the investigators,

23     were you promised an audio recording of the interview?

24        A.   I don't remember.  It is possible that they said that I would

25     receive a transcript by mail, but I can't say anything either way.

Page 8016

 1        Q.   Have you ever received it?

 2        A.   I have never received an audio recording.

 3        Q.   Let me tell you this:  At page 4 they promised they would forward

 4     it to you.  That was line 17 to line 20.  It says, and you can see it for

 5     yourself, the investigator, whose initials were KP, he says:

 6             "After the completion of the interview, I will arrange to have

 7     the tape recording transcribed and as soon as possible you will be

 8     provided with a copy of the transcript, along with a copy of the tape or

 9     tapes used during the record of interview."

10             And that you will be given the opportunity to sign that envelope.

11     Do you recall having signed anything of the sort?

12        A.   I don't recall that.  I don't know whether I signed anything or

13     not.

14        Q.   Thank you.  When you signed it, the envelope containing the tape,

15     if you signed it, were you aware that tapes can be erased or portions

16     inserted in other places so as to have a different background by clipping

17     out parts of conversations?  There are technical possibilities of that

18     kind, aren't there?

19        A.   Well, yes, but I trusted them and I trusted myself.  I don't

20     think I'm to blame for anything.  During the interview when they started

21     putting questions about Vujadin Popovic I did ask them to erase certain

22     things and they responded that nothing can be erased.  In other words, I

23     trusted them.  When I saw the transcript later on, I saw that it

24     completely tallies with what I had said.

25        Q.   Let's look at page 8, please, of the document on the screen,

Page 8017

 1     paragraph 1, where you say:

 2             "Yes, I was the head of the financial service, the treasurer and

 3     that were the duties I performed for the most part."

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   My question is, did you work in the army throughout the war in

 6     positions which did not require any weapons, such as the treasurer or the

 7     head of the financial department?

 8        A.   Well, no.  For the first six months I was part of the logistics

 9     platoon in charge of cleaning the premises.  So for the first six months

10     I wasn't involved in any financial matters, but we also once received a

11     notification that we should all be issued with weapons.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Can you explain to us why you were involved in the

13     cleaning of premises and did you have weapons at the time?

14        A.   Not at the time, but when the 1st Zvornik Platoon was

15     established, I was one of the two people who left the room, saying I

16     wasn't ready to do the things they required of us to do and they found a

17     replacement.  So they left me to clean up, to mop up for six months.

18        Q.   Does it mean that you were basically sanctioned because you

19     refused to sport arms?

20        A.   Well, I didn't see that as any punishment.  Given the situation

21     at the time, I couldn't cope with the war, with the things that are going

22     on.  I didn't see that as a punishment, although some others did.  I had

23     a degree in economy and still I was made to clean, but I was ready to do

24     that to avoid being sent to the front lines.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Let's go to page 10 of your statement, lines 14 to

Page 8018

 1     18.  We see it now.  Here you say that you went to Belgrade to receive

 2     money for the officers.  Do you remember that?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Since you went to Belgrade to receive money for the officers for

 5     their salaries, do you recall whether at that time you also received

 6     money for all pensioners who received their pensions through the same

 7     institution, given that some of the pensioners lived in Zvornik and other

 8     parts of the region and that the transaction systems were not

 9     operational?

10        A.   Well, I don't know.  I simply went to that facility in Nemanjina

11     Street to fill out some forms and then I would simply be given the money

12     as per list of names.  I don't know whether I received cheques or cash,

13     though, in the Postal Savings Bank.  After that I would return to the

14     brigade and give out to everyone what was due to them, be it cash or

15     cheques.  But I'm not sure about the pensioners.  I did supply the

16     active-duty officers and that's why I went to Belgrade on a few occasions

17     by bus and once in a vehicle.  Later on, the corps personnel performed

18     that.

19        Q.   During the period when you travelled and were in contact with

20     those financial entities, did you know that when the transaction systems

21     were interrupted in the FRY, still even Muslims received their pensions

22     in the territory of the RS?

23        A.   I cannot answer that.

24        Q.   So in the Postal Savings Bank you mainly received --

25        A.   Well, there was a list.  We would check the money and the cheques

Page 8019

 1     and then the people in Belgrade would take me to the secretariat for

 2     national defence where I would receive everything.

 3        Q.   Well, you didn't allow me to conclude my question.  So let's take

 4     it more slowly.  In Belgrade, in the Postal Savings Bank, did you receive

 5     money only for those who had been issued with notification of the social

 6     security institute to be issued with -- to be paid out monies or

 7     pensions?

 8        A.   I really don't know.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  I won't ask you about the part where the

10     investigators asked you to draw sketches of who was where in that

11     building and the building of your brigade.

12             But tell us this, please:  During that first interview in Banja

13     Luka, did the investigators ask you whether you recalled anything about

14     the events in Srebrenica?

15        A.   Did they ask me?

16        Q.   Yes.

17        A.   Well, yes, as part of the interview.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please show page 22 to the

20     witness.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The events in Orahovac, not in

22     Srebrenica.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, we'll see page 22.

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   We can see it here, paragraph 2.  Let's clarify something.  It is

Page 8020

 1     actually page 21 in English.  In line 4, it says:  "Let's clarify

 2     something.  Do you recall the date of the fall of Srebrenica?"

 3        A.   I don't know exactly whether I said it was the 7th or the 12th of

 4     July.  I don't know.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Do not answer before I complete my question.  Indeed

 6     you said as you said now, it is in lines 20, 21 and 22.  You said that:

 7             "In the course of those few days it lasted for a few days but I

 8     was in the brigade around the clock, I didn't go out to the field at

 9     all."

10             Next you explained that you went out in the field only once.  Did

11     you have in mind the events in Orahovac?

12        A.   Well, I suppose so.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, if you look at the clock, I think we

14     have to adjourn for the day and we have to continue the cross-examination

15     tomorrow.

16             Sir, we can't finish -- continue with your examination today

17     because the courtroom will be used by another trial this afternoon.  We

18     have to adjourn and resume tomorrow morning at 9.00 in this courtroom.

19             Mr. Tolimir, will you use this document on the screen, the OTP

20     statement, tomorrow again?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Your Honour, I will

22     use it tomorrow as well because it is the only document containing a

23     statement by this witness.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  We adjourn and resume

25     tomorrow.

Page 8021

 1                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.

 2                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 24th day of

 3                           November 2010, at 9.00 a.m.