1 Wednesday, 24 November 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning to everybody in the courtroom.
6 The Chamber got the information that you would like to address
7 something about documents, Mr. Vanderpuye.
8 MR. VANDERPUYE: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. Good
9 morning, everyone.
10 Yes, Mr. President, that's correct, we do have a document. It is
11 P01017, which had some translation issues, I think, when it was used with
12 Mr. Janc, and we do have a completed translation of that document --
13 English translation of the document that has been up-loaded into e-court.
14 Initially, the document had a partial English translation and only
15 certain pages of it had been translated, so now we have the complete
16 document, and that's from -- I think it's ERN 0677-819 [sic] through
17 0677-7849, and that's the complete document. We have the translation of
18 all of it.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
20 This is the document you used with Mr. Janc and it is not a
21 document you are going to use with Mr. Blaszczyk?
22 MR. VANDERPUYE: I think it actually is a document that we will
23 use with Mr. Blaszczyk, because it concerns the searches that were
24 executed relative to the materials attributed to General Mladic. And it
25 was used before, on the 22nd of September, during the examination of
1 Mr. Janc, and I believe it's also on Mr. Elderkin's exhibit list to use
2 with Mr. Blaszczyk as well.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
4 Leave is granted to replace the original, not complete,
5 translation by the complete translation.
6 Now the Chamber would like to issue an oral decision.
7 The Chamber is seized of the Prosecution's supplemental motion
8 for leave to amend its 65 ter list filed on Monday, the 22nd of November.
9 In this motion, the Prosecution seeks the addition of 29
10 documents related to the so-called Mladic note-books, as well as the
11 additional testimony of OTP Investigator Tomasz Blaszczyk concerning the
12 provenance of these note-books.
13 The day before yesterday, Mr. Gajic indicated that the Defence
14 would not take a position on the motion. The Chamber now delivers its
16 Having reviewed the proposed evidence, the Chamber finds that the
17 29 documents and the planned testimony are, prima facie, relevant and
18 likely to be of probative value, and that the Prosecution has acted
19 diligently with regard to the proposed additions, showing good cause for
20 the request since these documents came into the possession of the
21 Prosecution only relatively recently.
22 The Chamber, mindful of the Prosecution's duty to present
23 available evidence in seeking to prove its case, also finds that the
24 additions to the 65 ter exhibit list will not result in undue delay or
25 cause prejudice on the accused. For these reasons, the Chamber finds
1 that the proposed additions to the 65 ter lists are in the interests of
2 justice. Accordingly, the motion is granted.
3 Furthermore, given the proposed scheduling of Mr. Blaszczyk for
4 this week, the Chamber would be amenable to a request by the accused to
5 delay his cross-examination of the witness if he needs more time to
7 If there is nothing else to address, the witness should be
8 brought in, please.
9 [The witness takes the stand]
10 WITNESS: TANACKO TANIC [Resumed]
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning, sir. Please sit down.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Welcome back to the courtroom.
15 I have to remind you that the solemn declaration that you made at
16 the beginning of your testimony still applies today.
17 Mr. Tolimir is continuing his cross-examination.
18 Mr. Tolimir, please.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
20 May there be peace in this courtroom, and may the hearing today,
21 as well as the proceedings in its totality, be concluded according to
22 God's will and not my own.
23 I'd like to greet the witness, and I wish us all fruitful work
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir: [Continued]
1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Yesterday, we left off discussing where we discussed the
3 statement. We came to page 32, when you were taken out in the corridor
4 and you were told that you were to go to Orahovac because the prisoners
5 were fleeing. Do you recall that?
6 A. I do.
7 Q. To the OTP investigators, on page 31 of your statement, you said
8 as follows -- could we please have that on the screen. It is P1181.
9 Thank you, Aleksandar.
10 We have page 31 now. Please look at lines 12 to 25. You say:
11 "No, I don't know. They just picked me up at Standard, telling
12 me that people were trying to escape from Orahovac. I picked up my M-48
13 and went out. I came out because they saw me in the corridor. Had I not
14 been there, I would not have gone to Orahovac."
15 I guess that's what you mean.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. "And so I boarded a small truck that was parked in the compound,
18 and then we went to that place. And the reason why they took me, they
19 said they are running away. So that was a pretext ..." et cetera.
20 In this part of your statement, you describe those events.
21 This is my question: Did anyone order you to go to Orahovac?
22 A. No, not in the narrow sense of the words. I was just told that
23 we should pick up a weapon because the prisoners were fleeing, but it
24 wasn't strictly an order.
25 Q. Thank you. Were you in uniform at the time?
1 A. Yes, I was.
2 Q. Thank you. I'm waiting for the transcript.
3 If someone comes across a soldier in the street, and if that
4 person was a civilian, telling the soldier that the prisoners were
5 fleeing, would that soldier go to the location because he felt obliged to
6 do so?
7 A. Well, I don't know that.
8 Q. Does it sound logical to you that if someone tells you that
9 prisoners are escaping, you would not refuse to carry out such an order
10 or to follow up on that proposition?
11 A. Well, I believe at that time I believed I should go. I can't
12 really be precise. I wasn't too clear about it then, and it's not very
13 clear to me today.
14 Q. Thank you. I understand that it's difficult to recall it so many
15 years later.
16 Let us move on to page 31, lines 29 and 30. It's on the same
17 page, towards the bottom. And it's page 32 in the English, the first
19 There, you say how you got off the truck in the courtyard and
20 someone indicated two corpses to you that were covered, and they were
21 already putrefying. You say that their hands were already getting black.
22 Do you recall that?
23 A. I do.
24 Q. So did you see those people being killed?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Thank you. On page 37 in the Serbian, you again repeat your
2 description of how you were told to pick up your weapon to go to Orahovac
3 in order to try to prevent the prisoners from escaping. It is lines 10
4 to 14 in the Serbian, page 37. Have a look at the page, please. In the
5 English, it's page 37, the last paragraph.
6 My question is: Later on, when you described the situation, when
7 you were told to pick up your gun, the investigators had numerous
8 questions about that, and then in lines 28 to 30, they say:
9 "Am I right in saying that when the people who worked with you
10 there knew -- whether they knew that all of the prisoners would be taken
11 away ..."
12 Those were the words of the OTP investigator. It's page 38 in
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did any of you who went to Orahovac know that the Muslims fleeing
16 from Srebrenica would be captured and taken to Zvornik?
17 A. We didn't.
18 Q. Could anyone know that the Muslims would try to break through,
19 with the assistance of arms, through the territory of Zvornik?
20 A. I don't know.
21 Q. Did the population around Orahovac know that all prisoners were
22 to be taken to Zvornik?
23 A. I don't think so. How could they have known?
24 Q. Thank you. The Prosecutor put some questions to you here, when
25 they showed you some photographs, and first you marked the location of
1 the two corpses that you saw of the killed Muslims. That was page 56 of
2 yesterday's transcript. You indicated that they were close to the fence.
3 Do you remember that?
4 A. I do.
5 Q. Then you said that - and that was page 58 and 59 - you saw Drago
6 and Vujadin Popovic.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Were they there throughout the time when you were there?
9 A. I don't know. I wasn't there the whole time, myself.
10 Q. But while you were there?
11 A. Well, they were there at that point in time, but how long they
12 stayed there, that is something I don't know.
13 Q. Did you see who negotiated with the Muslims to board the
14 vehicles, telling them that they were to be exchanged?
15 A. I heard that in the yard. Drago Nikolic organised it, but they
16 didn't want to go. They resisted it. And then Drago was supposed to go
17 there to negotiate with them, and he promised them they would be
19 Q. Thank you. My question is: Did you take part in those
21 A. No.
22 Q. At page 63 of yesterday's transcript, and page 65 as well as 67,
23 you were asked by the Prosecutor whether you saw that boy next to the
24 gym, escorted by a soldier. Later on, at page 65, the Prosecutor asks
25 how many children you saw around the school, and you said that you were
1 positive you saw one.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. I think the Prosecutor asked you that because at page 32 of your
4 statement - could we please have that - in line 27, you said:
5 "When I was seated there, I saw two children."
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is this why the Prosecutor asked you about that, because you
8 mentioned two children in your statement?
9 A. Well, I tried to explain yesterday. There could have been two or
10 only that one, but when I was sitting down, I saw a boy with a bucket,
11 and then when I was in the yard, I saw a boy again, but I don't know
12 whether it's the same boy, the one I saw at the stairs of the cultural
13 hall and later on in the yard. But at least I'm positive I saw one
15 Q. So as you told the Prosecutor yesterday, you were certain you saw
16 at least one child.
17 A. Well, yes. I can't say anything else.
18 Q. That's why I'm putting this question to you. It was based on
19 your statement, and that's why you were asked about that yesterday. You
20 say you saw one.
21 A. Yes, that's certain.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have page 40.
23 Page 42 in the English, the first paragraph.
24 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
25 Q. I'm asking you about this because yesterday they asked you
1 whether you were in the gym, itself, in Orahovac. You only mentioned the
2 negotiations. Hence, I'm asking you this: Did you see the Muslim
3 prisoners in the gym or not?
4 A. I did not.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's move to page 41, lines 1
6 to 7. We can see it on the screen.
7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
8 Q. You describe how your M-48 rifle got jammed; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you manage to fix it when you were in Orahovac? Did you try
11 to cock it subsequently?
12 A. No, because I didn't even load it on that day. There was no
14 Q. When did you manage to fix it?
15 A. The next morning.
16 Q. Who was present then? Because you also said that a weapons
17 expert was there.
18 A. Yes, Jerkic, Ljubisa, I think. He simply hit it on the breach
19 and then a piece of paper slid out. That's what caused the jam.
20 Q. Does this prove that you basically did not use your weapon while
21 you were in Orahovac?
22 A. Well, to me, that's proof enough.
23 Q. So you could not have been an accomplice, because you were
24 accused of that.
25 A. I never realised that I was accused of being that.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
2 MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I object to that question. It
3 obviously calls for a legal conclusion, which this witness is not
4 qualified to make. I think Mr. Tolimir is perfectly aware of that, and I
5 would ask him to refrain from putting legal questions to this witness.
6 The question of whether or not he's an accomplice or not in relation to
7 an execution has more to do -- had more than to do with simply firing his
8 weapon. I mean, I think Mr. Tolimir -- General Tolimir is perfectly
9 aware of that. It's an inappropriate question to put to this witness,
10 and I think that General Tolimir is intentionally trying to distort the
11 record of these proceedings on that basis.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
14 I simply wanted the witness to tell the Court whether he fired or
15 not and when the gun was fixed, which was after the events. It's part of
16 the record now, and it is up to you to attach whatever importance to it
17 is necessary. I won't pursue this line of questions because I see that
18 the Prosecution objects.
19 We will move on to page 57 of your statement. Could we please
20 have that in e-court, which is page 60 in the English.
21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
22 Q. In lines 16 and 17, you again describe having seen two killed
23 persons, two corpses, next to the fence, and you indicated their location
24 on the school photograph yesterday. My question is this, if you can
25 recall it: Were these the only corpses you saw in the school compound,
1 on the pitch in front of the school and the gym?
2 A. Yes, these were the only two corpses I saw in the proximity of
3 the gym.
4 Q. The fact that their hands were black, as the others had seen as
5 well, does that indicate that they were killed before you arrived?
6 A. They were certainly killed before I arrived. But when, exactly,
7 and how, I don't know.
8 Q. Do you know why their hands were of such a dark colour?
9 A. No. It was just the impression I had.
10 Q. Do you know that hands can be dark from hemorrhaging after death
11 or because they had been strung up?
12 A. No. It's just the impression I had, and I mentioned it in my
14 Q. You did in lines 28 and 29, and you did so again.
15 Can we now see page 73 in e-court. We will see it now. In
16 English, it's lines 10 to 15, page 79.
17 I will read a part of what you said to demonstrate the degree of
18 your goodwill or lack of goodwill to go there:
19 "What we said, that people who were detained wanted to escape --"
20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot find this. Just a
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, first, please slow down. And,
23 secondly, indicate where you are reading from, because the interpreters
24 didn't find this part of the English version.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's page 79, first paragraph in
1 English. And it's lines 10 to 15, page 73, in Serbian.
2 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
3 Q. I repeat:
4 "Well, no, it was said that we should go there, as we said, that
5 people were about to escape, those who were detained, and it's easy to
6 give in. It's not that I was spurred to go there, but simply -- I mean,
7 what if people really wanted to escape? Okay, you don't have to go, but
8 then it's chaos. 1.200 people, they can really do God knows what. I
9 thought it was possible. I mean, it was said that it was possible."
10 Did you really believe that the Muslim prisoners were about to
12 A. Well, I believed it when they said it, that they were really
13 going to escape.
14 Q. May a soldier, in war, refuse anyone's demand or summons to
15 prevent the escape of prisoners?
16 A. I don't know what to say to that.
17 Q. Thank you. Since you don't want to speak about it, I'm not going
18 to ask anymore. Tell us only what you want to talk about, and I'm going
19 to ask you only about that.
20 Now, can we move to page 94.
21 While we're waiting, I'd like to ask you something else.
22 It's page 100 in English.
23 Did you state to the Prosecution that you had not participated in
24 the activities at Orahovac?
25 A. I believe I did.
1 Q. That's correct. I'm sorry, I said this before I quoted. In
2 lines 24 through 30, on page 94, you say:
3 "Well, simply, I did not take part in it, as far as these
4 executions in Orahovac or anywhere are concerned. I never did any harm
5 to anyone, and I had no reason to cause harm to anyone, and I tried in
6 every possible way to avoid doing so, beginning with 1992 and in Orahovac
7 as well. What else? Well, the only problem is that all these
8 accusations and all of a sudden you are suspected, without any real
9 proof, I don't know, and it turns out I'm guilty without a conviction."
10 And then the Prosecutor tells you:
11 "So the reason you are indicated as a suspect is the report we
12 received that you had been present ..."
13 That's page 101 in English:
14 " ... is the report we received that you were present in the area
15 of Orahovac on the day when the people were killed."
16 And then on page 95, in line 5, the same investigator of the OTP
17 tells you:
18 "You were on the crime scene, and our question was whether you
19 had taken part in it, and that's why you were invited here as a suspect."
20 My question to you is: During the interrogation by the
21 investigators of the OTP, did you state anything that would be contrary
22 to what you stated in the interview in the lines 24 through 30 that I
24 A. What did you ask? Did I what?
25 Q. Say anything contrary to your statement in lines 24 through 30 on
1 this page, that you did not participate in anything and avoided anything
2 of the sort.
3 A. I avoided getting involved in every way possible, to the best of
4 my ability.
5 Q. During the interrogation 10 years after the fact, did the
6 investigator ask you to recollect all these events to the best of your
7 ability, and did you answer to the best of your ability?
8 A. I can't answer that now. I probably answered, to the best of my
9 recollection, all the questions they asked.
10 Q. In the course of the interview, did you conceal or cover up the
11 activities of others, like in the questions about those children, the
12 fact that Muslims were taken to that hill?
13 A. I don't know why you're asking me this.
14 Q. I meant to say: Did you only talk about what you were sure of?
15 A. I talked only about the things that I was sure of, mainly. And
16 you can see from this interview, and the interpretation is correct -- you
17 can see from this interview that I was unsure, I didn't know what to say,
18 I had a lot of dilemmas at the time, and somebody asked me why I didn't
19 mention any names, and that's -- that's how I behaved, conditionally
21 Q. In yesterday's transcript, when the summary was being read by
22 Mr. Vanderpuye, he said that you had seen -- and I don't know if it was
23 open session, so I won't say the name -- that you had seen that van
24 driver with a certain group of people, enumerated the people, and you
25 recognised the boy you had seen earlier in the yard at Orahovac, in the
1 school-yard at Orahovac.
2 A. That's not exactly how it was.
3 Q. Tell us how it was, then.
4 A. In that interview, that first interview, I did not speak about
5 the driver or the people who were there with him. Right?
6 Q. Right.
7 A. However, the second time, when I was a Defence witness in the
8 Blagojevic and Jokic case, I mentioned it because some other people did
9 not want to come to the courtroom to at least try to help Jokic, because
10 I don't know Blagojevic that well, so I named the crew of the van, and
11 the boy in the van is not the same boy who carried water. It's not the
12 same boy. And perhaps we should correct one thing.
13 Yesterday, when Miladin Mijakovic [Realtime transcript read in
14 error "Mladen Jekovic"] was mentioned, the Prosecutor said "Mladen."
15 Perhaps the name should be corrected. And the boy said, when the van
16 approached Standard, Is this Srebrenica? Where's my father? The boy
17 said that when he saw the lights lit. That would be a correct quotation.
18 Q. Thank you for this correction. That's on transcript pages 7982
19 to 7985.
20 I don't know what happened in open session and what happened in
21 private session, so I have to be careful.
22 Now, tell us, since the Prosecution and the Trial Chamber know
23 what you just said, they know what you said where, what you said in open
24 session and private session - I won't go into it - just tell me: What
25 time was it when you got into that van that carried the boy?
1 A. Well, I was speaking roughly because I can't be precise; I didn't
2 have a watch.
3 Q. Sorry, I want to remind you: The summary said it was about 6.00
4 in the evening.
5 A. Then it must be around that time, perhaps half an hour later. It
6 could be between -- between 10.00 and 12.00. I believe we arrived at
7 Standard before 12.00, before midnight, I think.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
9 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Two things.
11 First, I think the summary is in the record, and it doesn't refer
12 to 6.00 but, I think, between 10.30 and 11.00 or something like that.
13 The second thing is: On page 15, at line 12, the witness was
14 correcting the name Miladin Mijatovic. It's recorded in the transcript
15 at "Mladen Jekovic," so I think that should be corrected as well so that
16 the record is clear.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, you corrected a name. Can you repeat the
18 correct name again, please, of this person Miladin.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It should be Miladin, M
20 -i-l-a-d-i-n, Mijatovic, not Mladen.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
22 And, Mr. Tolimir, can you clarify the time? I think now a
23 contradiction in the answer of the witness, you should discuss with the
24 witness again the time which you took from the summary. And you see the
25 witness said it must be around that time, and then later he referred to
1 the time between 10.00 and 12. You should clarify that with the witness,
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. It's
4 best for the witness to answer my question.
5 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Could you say, for the record, when you got into the van that you
7 hitched -- that picked you up on the road from Orahovac to your barracks,
8 Standard? Just tell us exactly whether it was in the morning or
10 A. It was around 11.00 p.m. I'm just trying to remember. I mean,
11 you all want precision, and I can't say exactly what time it was because
12 I didn't have a watch. But let's take it that it was around 2300 hours
13 that I got into that van.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Now the witness said,
15 for the record, it was around 2300 hours.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And even that is a supposition.
17 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
18 Q. You shouldn't fear that you are going to have any problems
19 because of this. Just tell us if there is anyone who can confirm that,
20 and how many such people.
21 A. Well, the people who were in the van, and Mira Vidovic, who I
22 went to see after I got out of the van.
23 Q. What's important for us is the people who were in the van,
24 whether they can confirm it.
25 A. Well, and Mira Vidovic, too.
1 Q. But she cannot know how long you had been waiting for that van.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 I'm not sure, but I think there may be a translation issue with
5 respect to what the witness said at page 17, lines 20 through 21, where
6 he says:
7 "Well, the people who were in the van," obviously can confirm
8 when he was in it, "and Mira Vidovic, who I went to see after I got out
9 of the van."
10 And I think there may be a translation error with respect to
11 that. If the witness could clarify it, I think that would be better,
12 because in the chronology of his prior testimony he would have left her
13 house before he got into the van. So that becomes an issue in and of
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, Mr. Tanic, can you help us with this? When
16 did you see Mira - what was her name? - Vidovic? Before you entered the
17 van or after you have left the van?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I left her house and went to the
19 road, as I stated earlier. I thought first I would walk, and then it
20 seemed too far away and unsafe, so I stopped 50 metres away from her
21 house, waiting for someone I know to pass by. And I knew a lot of
22 people, and this van came by. I left Mira's house, I don't know at what
23 time, I can't be precise, and then I waited for someone who could take me
24 to Standard. This van came by. They first passed me by, and then they
25 stopped and then they backed up. I got in, and that van took me to
1 Standard. So Mira can confirm at what time I left her house. I cannot
2 be sure about the time. Of course, I had spent a lot of time sitting in
3 her house. That's not in dispute. But she can confirm only when I left,
4 and those in the van can confirm when they stopped to pick me up.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much for this clarification.
6 Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.
7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Tanic. I'm sorry we are taking so long over such
9 a detail. What's important to me is that there are people in the van who
10 can confirm you were not in Orahovac at that time, but you were getting
11 into the van.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is that a question? Is that a question for the
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. I asked the witness if there
15 were any people who can confirm when he got into the van, that he didn't
16 get into the van from the school-yard but from the street.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there are such people. Mira
18 can confirm, and these who were in the van. They can confirm that I got
19 into the van, but not from the school-yard.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. I have no further
21 questions for you. Thank you for testifying, and thank you for all your
22 answers. I'm sorry if I angered you in any way.
23 Thank you, Mr. President. I've concluded my cross-examination.
24 I wish the witness a safe journey. God bless you.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir.
2 Mr. Vanderpuye, do you have re-examination?
3 MR. VANDERPUYE: Very briefly, Mr. President. Thank you.
4 Re-examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:
5 Q. Good morning to you, Mr. Tanic, again. I just wanted to clarify
6 a few issues with you.
7 First, we've been talking about when it was that you got into the
8 van or when it was that you left Ms. Vidovic's house. I just want to
9 point out, first of all, to you that in the summary that I read into the
10 record, I did not mention 6.00 at all. It's not anywhere in the summary.
11 In fact, what is mentioned there, and maybe you can confirm this, is that
12 you remained at your friend's house, Mira Vidovic's house, until about
13 10.00 or 11.00 p.m. Is that right?
14 A. Yes. But in total, I was in her house for seven or six hours.
15 That's the total time I spent in her house; a long time.
16 Q. Okay. You left there somewhere around 10.00 -- or between 10.00
17 and 11.00 p.m. on 14 July 1995; is that right?
18 A. That should be right. Again, I'm saying I can't be sure or
19 precise about the time and the hour when I left Mira's house, but I
20 suppose so. And when I said six hours, it's the time I spent in her
21 house, in Mira's house. It could be even seven.
22 Q. Okay. You were asked several questions about the child that you
23 saw at the school, and I believe you indicated that you saw at least one
24 child there. Is that right?
25 A. One for sure.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
2 I would appreciate it if the Prosecutor could say that he didn't
3 see the child in the school but in the yard.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. One carried water, and the
5 other boy was on the pitch. That's where I saw him. Whether the other
6 boy also carried water, I'm not sure. In any case, when I was sitting on
7 the steps outside the cultural hall, a boy was carrying a bucket of
8 water, escorted by one soldier, and then I saw him again when I was about
9 to leave. Near Mira's house, a boy was passing by the pitch with a
10 bucket. Whether it was the same boy or there were two boys, I don't
11 know. In any case, there were some children. One of the reasons I got
12 angry is I was thinking, Are they going to execute these children too?
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think the matter is quite clear now, as it was
14 earlier. The problem arose by the use of the words that "you saw at the
15 school." And, Mr. Tolimir, perhaps that is a translation issue again.
16 In your question, you said "in the school," but that was not the word
17 Mr. Vanderpuye used.
18 Please carry on, Mr. Vanderpuye.
19 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Q. Is it your -- is it your judgement or your recollection,
21 Mr. Tanic, that at the school or on the pitch, or the vicinity of the
22 school, that there were only two children there on that day? And when I
23 mean children, I mean Muslim children, the ones whom you thought might be
25 A. Whether I saw one or two, is that what you're asking? I said
1 here before -- because everything you say here is a problem, it seems --
2 I can't be sure. I saw one boy carrying water when I was sitting on the
3 steps outside the cultural hall. And then when I was walking along that
4 road where Cedo Jovic and others were, I saw a boy with a bucket on the
5 pitch, also carrying water. Whether it's the same boy or two different
6 boys, I don't know. But in any case, I saw two boys, the one in the van
7 and the one carrying water. Let's say that I saw one near the pitch or
8 behind the cultural hall carrying water, to be -- I mean, I can't claim
9 anything with any certainty. I can't be sure now. Maybe it's
10 one-and-the-same boy that I saw twice, once behind the cultural hall and
11 once passing by the pitch. That's the best I can say.
12 Q. [Previous translation continues]... your answer, but it's not the
13 answer to the question that I asked you. My question was: Is it your
14 judgement that there were only those children that you saw at the school,
15 in the vicinity of the school, on that day while you were there? That's
16 my question, and that's a bit different than --
17 A. I don't know. I can't say anything for sure. I did not go into
18 the gym, and I don't know. But even if there were only two, that's
19 enough. I did not go into the gym, however, and I didn't ask anyone
20 later whether -- I mean, I can only suppose there were some, but
21 suppositions are not good enough. I told you what I saw, and I didn't go
22 into the gym, and I don't know if there were any more children. I did
23 not ask the others later whether there were more boys or not. I did not
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I put the question in the following way: I'm not
1 referring to the gym and the people inside of the gym. Did you see at
2 that time other young men or boys outside the building in the vicinity of
3 the school, others --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no.
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues]... one or two
6 boys carrying water?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, there weren't any other
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
10 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Q. During your testimony, both this time around and in the Popovic
12 case, you indicated that you were concerned about these children, in
13 fact. Is that right?
14 A. Well, I didn't think it was right. The boy I saw could have been
15 as old as my children, and then if I tried to imagine that someone had to
16 kill my children, it wasn't right.
17 Q. In the Popovic case, you were asked about this issue, and this is
18 at page 1345, lines 24 down. It's P1177. You were asked the following
19 question and you gave this answer:
20 "Would you tell us what it was that you found revolting."
21 And your answer was:
22 "Well, because, conditionally speaking, it was obvious that there
23 would be some organisation. There was no question of transport, and
24 there were children there as well."
25 Do you recall giving the answer to that question concerning what
1 you saw when you were at the -- or in the vicinity of the school on 14
2 July 1995?
3 A. I do. That is why I'm trying to say things from memory again.
4 Perhaps it was just one child. But in any case, throughout the three or
5 four hours, I saw two boys, one in the van, one carrying water. So there
6 were children there. And going any further would serve no use. I did
7 suppose that there were more children. And then they said, Well, they'll
8 grow up. And I couldn't comprehend that way of thinking. I found it
10 Q. When you say, They would say, They'll grow up, what do you mean
11 by that?
12 A. Well, in case they would be released, later on when they grew up,
13 they would wage war again. That was the sense, I think: If we allow
14 them to grow up, then there would be trouble, and someone took the right
15 to deny them that. I stand by the same things I said then, but, of
16 course, I will never use the exactly same words. There would be
17 differences, always, and then there's always a problem, whether I said
18 this or that, in what sequence, et cetera. But in essence, I think I'm
19 saying the same thing. As for how I put it depends on the question, the
20 situation, et cetera. In any case, the statements I provided before and
21 what I'm saying today are all basically the same. I did not change
22 anything that was important. I explained the things the way I saw them.
23 There is the 2002 statement, which is somewhat confusing, as I have tried
24 to explain. I didn't know what to say, what not to say, how to behave.
25 No one was telling me anything, I was simply left to my own devices.
1 Perhaps I should have had an attorney, but I don't think I would have
2 fared much better in that case either.
3 Q. I don't mean to interrupt you, but my question was simply: What
4 do you mean when you say, They will grow up, that somebody told you, They
5 will grow up? I think you've answered that, and I'll ask you a different
7 You referred on a number of occasions to children in your
8 testimony in the Popovic case; is that fair?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, you were asked a question by General Tolimir. I'm not sure
11 exactly what page it is on the transcript, but you will recall that he
12 referred to the putrefying hands or bodies of the two individuals you saw
13 covered in the school-yard. Do you remember that? I see that it's at
14 page 5, and it's lines 20 through 23.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You were asked for an explanation about why these hands appeared
17 to you to be black. You remember that?
18 A. I don't know, I don't know. I don't know what I said in the
19 Popovic case. In any case, I stand by what I said before and today, in
20 the main points, although my way of presenting it may differ from one
21 situation to the next. Perhaps there I said that, if I could remember
22 correctly, their hands were covered in dust and dirt. But, in any case,
23 they seemed black to me. I don't know why, though.
24 Q. Thank you for that clarification. And, in fact, you said, during
25 your interview in 2002, 24 June 2002 -- I have it as P1181, I have it
1 here as page 34 in the English, and you said precisely that:
2 "I saw their hands were black. Maybe it was dust or something."
3 Is that what you're referring to?
4 A. That's possible. I suppose so. I can't say anything for sure.
5 Q. Well, you can say what you said before, can't you?
6 A. Yes, I can.
7 Q. You mentioned that you did not see prisoners in the gym on
8 cross-examination today. Do you remember that?
9 A. I didn't see them in the gym. I didn't approach the gym nor
10 enter it.
11 Q. When you arrived at the gym -- I mean, at the school, itself, you
12 were outside the fence that you indicated in the photographs that I
13 presented you yesterday; right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And from the fence, you can see the entrance to the gym, you can
16 see the gym building; isn't that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you know that there were prisoners in the school during the
19 period of time -- in the school or in the gym, during the period of time
20 when you were there, without having seen them?
21 A. I didn't see them, but they were in the gym, and at the door
22 there were soldiers standing guard.
23 Q. How did you know they were in the gym if you didn't see them?
24 A. Because when I came to the road, I could hear the clamour. The
25 sound was like that of a beehive being close by. They were talking, and
1 then I knew they were there because the boy was carrying water, or there
2 may have been two boys, I don't know anymore. How did I know? Well,
3 there was -- there were clothes on the road, there were two corpses in
4 the yard; that's how I knew. And, lastly, there were the military
5 policemen there, guarding them. They told me how many there were,
6 et cetera.
7 Q. You also knew because you saw them getting loaded onto a truck;
8 isn't that right, Mr. Tanic?
9 A. It's the way I stated: I only saw when they were being put onto
10 the first truck. I didn't pay much attention to it later. I wasn't
11 following it.
12 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you. I have no further questions.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tanic, may I put an additional question.
14 Questioned by the Court:
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You just said, in one of your answers, and I
17 "And, lastly, there were the military policemen there, guarding
18 them. They told me how many there were ..." et cetera. End of quote.
19 What did they tell you about the number of people, number of
20 prisoners in the gym?
21 A. One of them, or someone along the road when I was there,
22 conditionally speaking, they said that there were about 1200. I didn't
23 know anything else. That's the information I got from one of them or
24 some of them.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Nyambe has another question.
1 JUDGE NYAMBE: Just now, the Prosecutor asked you the following
3 "You also knew because you saw them getting loaded onto a truck;
4 isn't that right, Mr. Tanic?"
5 And you answered:
6 "It's the way I stated: I only saw them when they were being put
7 on the first truck."
8 Where did this happen? Where did you see this?
9 A. There was a truck parked at the side entrance of the gym. That's
10 where they were being loaded. I could see two or three of them, but I
11 couldn't make them out, I couldn't recognise them. I repeat that it all
12 seemed so surreal, it seemed as if I were observing the scene through
13 binoculars turned the wrong way. It all seemed far away. It simply
14 didn't occur to me what to do, how to do it. I just saw people being
15 loaded onto the truck, that's all.
16 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you very much for your answer.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tanic, this concludes your examination here
18 in this trial. The Chamber would like to thank you that you were able to
19 come to The Hague again and to assist us, and you are now free to return
20 to your normal life and your normal activities. Thank you very much
21 again, and the court usher will assist you leaving the courtroom.
22 Goodbye and thank you.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Goodbye.
24 [The witness withdrew]
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, I see you on your feet.
1 MR. VANDERPUYE: I am indeed, Mr. President. Thank you.
2 We are prepared to proceed with the next witness.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning, Mr. Elderkin. Welcome to the
7 MR. ELDERKIN: Good morning, Your Honours. Thank you.
8 And I hope that following this morning's ruling, we can continue
9 straight with the proposed additional testimony of Mr. Blaszczyk.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, indeed. He has already entered the
12 Welcome to the courtroom again, Mr. Blaszczyk. May I remind you
13 that the affirmation to tell the truth you made at the beginning of your
14 testimony a long time ago still applies.
15 THE WITNESS: I understand, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Elderkin has a different set of questions for
18 WITNESS: TOMASZ BLASZCZYK [Resumed]
19 MR. ELDERKIN: And if I may begin, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. Elderkin, please go ahead.
21 Examination by Mr. Elderkin: [Continued]
22 Q. Good morning, Mr. Blaszczyk. As you know, I'm Rupert Elderkin,
23 and the subject of your testimony today concerns how the OTP both
24 obtained and authenticated certain wartime note-books written by
25 General Ratko Mladic, as well as other materials obtained at the same
1 time. And I'd like to begin by asking you about a first search which
2 took place in 2008.
3 Can you tell us the date when the first of General Mladic's
4 note-books were found?
5 A. The first search of house of General Mladic family was conducted
6 on the 4th December 2008 in Belgrade, and at that time the five
7 note-books of General Mladic were seized in this location.
8 Q. Do you know the specific address of that location and whose house
9 it actually was?
10 A. Yes. The house is located in Belgrade. It's on the street
11 Blagoja Parovica 117A, and this house is -- the owner of this house is
12 Bosiljka Mladic, the wife of General Mladic. And his son, Darko Mladic.
13 Q. Who carried out the search? I don't need individual names, but
14 which authorities?
15 A. The search was carried out by the MUP unit from Serbia, by the
17 MR. ELDERKIN: Could we please see P1017, which hopefully by now
18 has the full English translation also available.
19 Q. The document that you can see on the screen, Mr. Blaszczyk, can
20 you tell us what this is?
21 A. This is certificate of temporarily-seized items from the house of
22 Bosiljka Mladic. And I find this receipt of the seized material of the
24 Q. And can you tell us the date you see on the document?
25 A. The date of this document is 4 December 2008.
1 Q. So that's the date the search and seizure actually took place?
2 A. Yes, it's correct. It's the date when the seizure took place,
3 and this document was prepared on the spot at the house of
4 Bosiljka Mladic.
5 Q. And we can see, starting from about halfway down the page, some
6 numbered items. It seems to be a list. What would have listed here?
7 A. Here, we have listed the items seized during the search of this
8 house in Blagoja Parovica 117A in Belgrade.
9 MR. ELDERKIN: And can we go to the next page, please. And,
10 I think, actually, one more page in the English so we can get to the end
11 of the document. The B/C/S is two pages, but the English, I think, runs
12 into three.
13 Q. And at the bottom of this document, there are signatures on the
14 left-hand and right-hand sides. Is there any signature there from a
15 member of the Mladic family?
16 A. Yes. I recognise the signature on the left-hand side of this
17 document, of the original document, I recognise the signature of Bosiljka
19 MR. ELDERKIN: And can we now go to page 19 in the B/C/S and
20 page 22 in the English.
21 Q. And, again, can you tell us what date you see on this document
22 and what this document is, please.
23 A. This document is dated 12 December 2008, and this is certificate
24 of temporarily-seized items. In fact, this is kind of the review of
25 receipt of the seized items which were seized on the 4th December 2008 at
1 Bosiljka Mladic house. This document was prepared on the building of
2 MUP, and we see in this document we have listed items which, if you look
3 at the previous document -- can we go back to the previous document,
5 MR. ELDERKIN: Go back to page 1 in both languages, please.
6 THE WITNESS: If we go to the last page of this document -- the
7 previous document, the 4th December 2008 document --
8 MR. ELDERKIN: Okay. That would be page 2 in the B/C/S and
9 page 3 in the English again.
10 THE WITNESS: We see -- on this English translation, under
11 number 32 and 35, we see:
12 "One sealed carton box contained unchecked written documents."
13 And the same in regards to item number 35. And in the following
14 document, which we saw just a few seconds ago from 12 December 2008, we
15 have receipt of the documents which contain -- which were contained in
16 these two -- in the box of -- listed here as Box 35.
17 Q. So the document we have on the screen was prepared on the day
18 items were taken at the house, and the second document we just saw is a
19 more detailed list of those items a few days later; is that correct?
20 A. Yes, it's correct. At the time when the search was conducted,
21 the police officer, they had no time to list all these documents that
22 were seized in the house of Bosiljka Mladic. They packed all these
23 documents in a carton box, and later on, on the 12th of December -- in
24 fact, it took place in a few days in December, between 10 and 16
25 December, in the presence of Darko Mladic, the son of General
1 Ratko Mladic, and his lawyer, they reviewed this document, they prepared
2 a list of the documents seized in the house of Bosiljka Mladic on the 4
3 December 2008.
4 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, the items on the list we have on the
5 screen at the moment include a number of note-books which are on the
6 Prosecution's 65 ter list. In order to be able to make sense of things
7 more easily, I would propose passing up to the Bench and also to the
8 Defence - I provided a copy in B/C/S yesterday - simply a correlation
9 list which lists our 65 ter numbers and the inventory list number as we
10 see here, because we'll be referring between lists, and I think having
11 one on the screen and one in hard copy is the easiest way to proceed,
12 with your permission.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, please.
14 The parties, the Bench, and the witness have received this
16 At this point in time, Judge Nyambe would like to put a question.
17 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.
18 Mr. Blaszczyk, at page 31 of the transcript, you have stated:
19 "I recognise the signature on the left-hand side of this
20 document, of the original document. I recognise the signature of
21 Bosiljka Mladic."
22 How did you become familiar with this signature?
23 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I seen the signature several times
24 in -- during the review of material seized on this house in 2008 and also
25 2010. And from the report of Serbian MUP, they mentioned that this is
1 Bosiljka Mladic signature. And I can read Cyrillic a little bit, and, in
2 fact, this is the name, "B. Mladic." I can recognise the name.
3 JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Elderkin.
5 MR. ELDERKIN:
6 Q. I'd like to refer just back to the hand-out that has been passed
7 around the courtroom. This appears as 65 ter 6825 on the Prosecution's
8 list of exhibits.
9 Mr. Blaszczyk, if you could look at the hand-out you have in
10 front of you and refer to Table A, please, the 4th of December 2008
11 search. Can you identify the five note-books taken on that date from the
12 Mladic family home and reference them to the inventory list that we have
13 just seen on the screen?
14 If we could actually have that back up on the screen, that would
16 A. Yes, I can identify, but I believe we should go to the following
17 page of this receipt.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In the meantime, I would ask Mr. Elderkin for a
20 What do you mean by:
21 "This appears at 65 ter 6825 on the Prosecution's list of
23 Do you mean this compilation has such a number?
24 MR. ELDERKIN: Indeed, Your Honour, yes. This is a demonstrative
25 exhibit that was created for ease of reference, so in due course I would
1 actually seek to tender this item and it's loaded up into e-court. It's
2 simply handed out in the paper copy because of the problems of showing
3 more than one thing at once.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
5 Please go ahead.
6 THE WITNESS: I was wrong, Your Honour. Your Honour, these
7 first -- these first two note-books are listed on the first page of this
8 document from December 12, 2008. And the first one, this is on this
9 English translation and on original document. It's listed as item
10 number 6.
11 MR. ELDERKIN:
12 Q. Which 65 ter number is that, for the record?
13 A. In the Serbian receipt, it's mentioned here as one blue workbook
14 with 27 textual pages, and I recognise this is -- in our list, we
15 described this note-book as blue business note-book with 27 pages of
16 handwritten notes in Cyrillic from 15 September 1992 until 4 October
17 1992. This is the first note-book which we recognised the handwriting of
18 General Ratko Mladic. And another one from this page is listed here as
19 number 7, one note-book reading "Svila Celinac" with 10 textual pages.
20 And this note-book is listed in our list as one note-book containing
21 written pages regarding 1st September 1993, speech by Ratko Mladic in
22 Banja Luka, and this note-book has our 65 ter number 05489.
23 Q. And for the record, the first note-book you mentioned, listed as
24 the MUP number 6, does that have the 65 ter number 05487?
25 A. Yes, it's correct, 05487.
1 MR. ELDERKIN: I see the time, Your Honours. I see no problem
2 with breaking now. We can continue with the next items in the next page
3 after the break.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed.
5 We will adjourn for the first break and resume at 11.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. Elderkin, please proceed.
9 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you.
10 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, I'd like to continue along the same list from
11 where we left off before the break. I think the same page is visible in
12 e-court, and we'd just finished describing 65 ter numbers 5487 and 5489.
13 So if you could continue with that list, please.
14 A. I described already two note-books from this receipt. It's the
15 65 ter number note-book is 05487 and 05489.
16 And now to look at another note-book, we should go to the
17 following page.
18 On the English translation at item number 8, we have:
19 "One brown leather agenda, reading 'Nis.'"
20 This is note-book I identified as brown leather agenda consisting
21 of handwritten notes covering 27 January 1995 through 5 September 1995.
22 This note-book has our 65 ter number 05490.
23 And under item 11, number 11 on this original receipt, and the
24 English translation, in fact, on the following page of original receipt,
25 we have:
1 "One workbook with red covers."
2 It's our note-book with 65 ter number 05488, one business
3 note-book with red cover, "Radna Beleznica," containing handwritten notes
4 from 20 January 1993 until 31st March 1993.
5 And under number 17, we have the last note-book from this batch.
6 This is our 65 ter number 05486. This is brown business diary with 30
7 pages of handwritten notes, including notes of the Assembly session held
8 on 14 and 15 September 1992, and conversation with
9 General Philippe Morillon on 27 September 1992.
10 These five note-books were seized at the location of
11 Bosiljka Mladic on the 4th December 2008, at her house.
12 MR. ELDERKIN: Okay. And could we now go to the next page of
13 this inventory list, please.
14 Q. Can you tell us whose signatures are at the bottom of this page?
15 A. If you look at the original last page of this receipt, we see, on
16 the left-hand bottom we have -- we see -- we see the signature of
17 Darko Mladic and lawyer Zara Tijanic. Tijanic Jeftovic. And this, as I
18 said before, this box containing these documents were opened on 12
19 December 2008 at the premises of MUP in Belgrade, and Darko Mladic was
20 present during the opening of this box and during the listing of all
21 these documents which were inside the box, and he confirmed that this box
22 contained these particular documents with his signature here.
23 Q. And do you specifically recognise his signature or is that based
24 on the typed name that appears above the signature, where it says, in
25 type: "Citizen, Darko Mladic"?
1 A. It's not like in the case of Bosiljka Mladic, that I even
2 recognise the letters, Cyrillic letters, but that one, the signature I
3 seen also several time in other documents. And also the signature is
4 mentioned in the MUP report that this is Darko Mladic signature.
5 Q. Can you tell us now how this material came into the hands of the
7 A. In this first search which was conducted on the 4th December
8 2008, we received -- I mean, the OTP received the information about the
9 search from the Serbian authorities in February 2009. And on the 25th
10 February of 2009, OTP -- in fact, our field office in Belgrade, received
11 a digitalised copy of all scanned material you said -- seized at that
12 time at the house of Bosiljka Mladic. This is first time, in fact, we
13 received the copy of the material. It was an electronic copy of the
14 material seized in the house.
15 And later on we asked, in March 20 -- we asked the authority --
16 the Serbian authority to get access to this original material, and
17 personally me and two of my colleagues went to Belgrade to see this
18 original material. And when we reviewed the original material seized on
19 the 4th December 2008, I selected these five note-books and also, I
20 believe, four videotapes which I considered at that time as the priority
21 material, and immediately we requested this material to be provided to
22 us. And on 27 March 2009, I personally collected these five note-books
23 and plus four videotapes from Serbian deputy war crimes prosecutor in
24 Belgrade. And this material, since 27 March 2009, was exclusively in my
25 possession until 30 March 2009, when I submitted this material to our
1 evidence unit.
2 Q. And was there any other original material from that first search
3 which came into the OTP's possession?
4 A. Yes. It was another material -- a lot of material, including
5 videotapes, including documents, but this material we received later on,
6 I think beginning on the 7 of April the same year, 2009. And also I was
7 personally involved in transfer of these documents to The Hague. I went
8 to Belgrade, and on the 7 of April, 2009, we received from the -- also
9 from the deputy war crime prosecutor from Belgrade the entire material.
10 We packed in diplomatic pouch and we transported -- together with my
11 colleague from the field office, I transported this material to
12 The Hague, and also I submitted this material to the evidence unit.
13 MR. ELDERKIN: I want to ask for one correction.
14 I see at page 38 at line 2, you referred to the search being
15 conducted on, and it's written "the 4th of September 2008."
16 Q. Could you say on what time is the correct date for that first
18 A. No, the correct date, of course, is 4th of December, 2008.
19 Q. Thank you. And now can we talk, please, about the second search.
20 At some time after the first search, there was another search. Can you
21 tell us when that was?
22 A. The second search, when the material was seized also on the house
23 of Bosiljka Mladic, was conducted on 23 February 2010.
24 Q. And, again, that's the same address as the first search?
25 A. Yes, the search was conducted at the same address in Belgrade, at
1 her house on Blagoja Parovica Street 117A.
2 Q. Who conducted that search?
3 A. As the previous search, this search was conducted also by the
4 members of police of Serbia.
5 Q. What kind of materials were found during that second search?
6 A. During the second search -- during the second search conducted on
7 23 February 2010, the police officer discovered in the house of
8 Bosiljka Mladic more note-books which appeared to be Ratko Mladic
9 note-books, altogether 17 note-books, and more -- more documents, some
10 medical material and video material and audiotapes also containing
11 intercepted conversation, various intercepted conversation. But between
12 material seized at that time on 23 February 2010, there was also 17
13 note-books which appeared to be General Ratko Mladic note-books.
14 Q. Do you have any information as to why this material hadn't been
15 found during the first search?
16 A. According to our information, the first search, the material
17 discovered during the first search, was available on the plain view for
18 the police officers. But this material from 23 February 2010, especially
19 the note-books, they were hidden -- maybe not hidden, but at least not
20 available from the plain view but was -- was -- the material, the 17
21 note-books, were located in two places. One place, it was in the bedroom
22 of the house, and another part of the note-books were located on the
23 attic, which was accessible only through the bathroom of this apartment
24 or house.
25 MR. ELDERKIN: Could we see, please, 65 ter 6827.
1 Q. First, what date do you see on this document?
2 A. This document is dated 23 February 2010, and this document was
3 prepared on -- at the location of Blagoja Parovica 117A Street.
4 Q. So prepared at the house where the search took place?
5 A. Exactly. This document was prepared at the house where the
6 search was conducted at that day.
7 Q. And, again, we see, in the B/C/S version, a handwritten list.
8 That's also, obviously, translated into English. What are the items that
9 are handwritten in this list?
10 A. This is the list of items seized at this location at
11 Blagoja Parovica 117A apartment from Bosiljka Mladic on the 23 February
13 MR. ELDERKIN: And could we just scroll through page by page to
14 see that list through to the end, please.
15 Q. Okay. Could you again look towards the bottom of this page and
16 tell us if you recognise any of the signatures there.
17 A. Yes. On the original page, we see that this is signature of
18 Bosiljka Mladic, the same signature which appeared to be on the receipt
19 from 4th December 2008.
20 Q. Now, if you could look at the hand-out -- the paper hand-out that
21 I passed around the courtroom earlier, and look at Table B, the 23rd of
22 February, 2010 search. This lists, by 65 ter number, a number of
23 documents, followed by a column with "MUP inventory list number" and a
24 description, and, finally, an ERN. Do the 65 ter numbers listed here, to
25 your knowledge, correspond to the inventory list that we're seeing before
2 A. Yes. Yes, I checked it, and they correspond to the -- even to
3 the list we see in front of us.
4 MR. ELDERKIN: Unless Your Honours would like to do so, I
5 wouldn't propose to read through these one by one. I think the
6 correspondence is clear from the hand-out and, obviously, by correlation
7 with the document we have on the screen which is already part of an
8 admitted exhibit.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And everybody is in a position to check it for
11 MR. ELDERKIN: Exactly.
12 I would ask at this stage, though, Your Honours, to tender the
13 hand-out formally as Prosecution 65 ter 6825.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I wonder if this is on the Prosecution's exhibit
15 list we received before this testimony. I didn't find it here. Perhaps
16 you can help me.
17 MR. ELDERKIN: It should be on the third page, I think, of the
18 exhibit list, very close to the end. 6825.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, indeed, I see it. Thank you very much. It
20 will be received as an exhibit.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1388, Your Honours.
22 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you.
23 And also the -- I'm sorry, when I said that the exhibit we had on
24 the screen, the inventory list, had been admitted, I was incorrectly
25 referring to the first list we saw relating to the 2008 search. So the
1 list that we've just been looking at is 65 ter 6827, and I'd also ask for
2 that to be admitted. And, again, that's also on our -- the list
3 circulated before Mr. Blaszczyk's testimony.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That's right. This will be admitted into
5 evidence too.
6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1389, Your Honours.
7 MR. ELDERKIN:
8 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, do you know if General Mladic's wife marked any of
9 the note-books seized on the 23rd of February, 2010, before they were
10 taken away by the MUP?
11 A. Yes. In this search conducted on 23 February 2010,
12 Bosiljka Mladic, the wife of General Mladic, she insisted to paginate all
13 these note-books, and also she confirmed the number of the pages at the
14 end of the note-book.
15 MR. ELDERKIN: Could we see 65 ter 6811, please.
16 Q. Perhaps, Mr. Blaszczyk, while this is loading up, you could refer
17 to the paper hand-out, 65 ter 6811, and confirm the description of the
18 note-book we're now seeing on the screen. Can you just tell us what it
19 says there, please?
20 A. Yeah. This is -- this is in our list 65 ter 06811, this is
21 handwritten note-book of Ratko Mladic covering the period from 27 May
22 1992 to 31st July 1992.
23 Q. And we can see, on the Table B, that the MUP inventory list
24 number is number 40, and does that correspond, then, to what we see on
25 the screen now?
1 A. I don't have the list in front of me, but it corresponds.
2 MR. ELDERKIN: And if we could again scroll through the first few
3 pages of the document, please.
4 Q. And when you see them, if you could indicate, where are the
5 numbers added by General Mladic's wife?
6 A. If -- if we see the first page with handwritten notes on it, and
7 the number is visible on the right-hand corner of the page with -- it was
8 used, I believe, green ink.
9 MR. ELDERKIN: And if we could click onto the next page, please,
10 to see that.
11 THE WITNESS: And we see number 2 also marked by green ink on the
12 left top corner of the page, of the original page.
13 MR. ELDERKIN: Okay. Now, could we go to the final page of the
14 document. And then once we're at the final page in English and in B/C/S,
15 if we could then start coming back towards the front of the book page by
16 page until we see the first handwriting.
17 I think we need to see the English page 400. I'm not sure --
18 I think it's page 399 we're seeing, so if we could go one page further in
19 the English, please.
20 Q. And can you tell us, what bit is this writing here? Whose
21 handwriting is that?
22 A. This is what I mentioned a few minutes ago, that this is
23 confirmation signed by Bosiljka Mladic that this particular diary
24 contains 396 pages of handwritten text in it, and she confirmed that,
25 indeed, this diary consists of 396 pages. And we see, again, her
1 signature here.
2 Q. And do you know if Mrs. Mladic made a similar declaration in the
3 other note-books that were seized in the February 2010 search?
4 A. Yes, he [sic] did a similar declaration in the other note-books
5 seized this date on 23 February 2010.
6 Q. Can you tell us, then, how did the OTP come to receive the
7 material from this search?
8 A. It was similar as in previous case. The first -- we were
9 informed about the search that was conducted on 23 February 2010, and the
10 first on -- on 23 March, I believe, 2000 -- 2010, we received a hard
11 drive containing the scanned version of these documents seized in the
12 house of Bosiljka Mladic on 23 February 2010. And, of course, we
13 requested the original material, and we received the original material --
14 we received this original material in May. In fact, on the 27 April
15 2010, the original material was received by my colleague from field
16 office in Belgrade, and then material was stored in the field office in
17 material -- in Belgrade, and only my colleague from the field office had
18 direct access to this material. And on the 7 of May, I think, I arrived
19 to Belgrade, and together with my colleague, I made -- additionally
20 checked -- compared the material with the list of the MUP, and we packed
21 the material to the sealed box, and we transported these documents to
22 The Hague. The material arrived to The Hague on the 11th of May, 2010,
23 on the same day I submitted this entire material to our evidence unit
24 here in The Hague.
25 Q. I think you referred to the 23rd of March when the first MUP
1 scans were received on a hard drive. Is it possible that you meant to
2 refer to the 29th of March? I believe you made a declaration on this
3 matter, although I'm not going to seek to use that with you.
4 A. In fact, these two days are correct, because on 23 March our
5 field office received the scanned version of the documents, but on 29
6 March, here in The Hague, our team received -- me, personally -- we
7 received this hard drive containing the scanned material.
8 Q. Now, when the OTP first received the scanned versions of these
9 note-books, did the scans include one note-book which had been scanned
10 into two separate parts?
11 A. Yes. This scan -- this MUP scan included, in fact, one note-book
12 which was scanned in two batches. At that time, we didn't know -- we
13 were not sure whether there is one note-book or whether it was two
14 separate note-books, but indeed.
15 Q. And if you look again at the paper hand-out and at the first item
16 of Table B, 65 ter numbers 6808 and 6809, do these correspond to the two
17 separate parts of what is, in fact, one note-book?
18 A. Yes, this -- this particular note-book marked here as 65 ter
19 06808 and 06809 was scanned at the beginning by the Serbian MUP in two
20 batches. This is this note-book, and this note-book is listed in the MUP
21 inventory as note-book number 41. This note-book covered the period 30
22 December 1991 until 14 February 1992.
23 Q. I'd like to ask you briefly about the other kinds of materials
24 that you mentioned were also taken from the Mladic family house in the
25 second seizure, including some tapes. Do you know how these were
1 handled, and what was the chain of custody for those materials?
2 A. It was similar like note-books. First, it was on the possession
3 of Serbian MUP. Then, on 27 April 2010, entire material, including the
4 tapes, was handed over to our field investigator in Belgrade. And then
5 on 11 May 2010, I brought entire material, including the tapes,
6 audiotapes, also brought to The Hague and submitted to evidence unit.
7 Q. And do you know what, if anything, in general terms, is recorded
8 on those audiotapes?
9 A. Roughly, I know what is in the tapes. They are recorded
10 conversation between various people, including Ratko Mladic, including
11 General Tolimir, including President Karadzic and other prominent people
12 from Bosnia-Herzegovina, not only also from Serbia.
13 Q. I won't ask you any further about those tapes. I'd like to turn
14 now, though, to methods by which the note-books were authenticated.
15 After the OTP received the first scans of the note-books from the
16 February 2010 search, did you take any steps or conduct any interviews to
17 further authenticate them?
18 A. Are we referring to the search from February 2010 or from search
19 from 2008?
20 Q. The search from February 2010.
21 A. Yes. Regarding this search, we -- we took some steps to
22 authenticate these documents. The first -- first -- I believe the
23 note-books seized at that time. When General Milovanovic testified in
24 The Hague, he received from Prosecution the scanned version or the hard
25 copy of the scanned version of the material of the note-books seized at
1 this time at Bosiljka Mladic house, and he authenticated -- or he
2 recognised the handwriting of General Mladic.
3 Q. Can you just remind us, who is General Manojlo Milovanovic, and
4 what was his professional association with General Ratko Mladic during
5 the war?
6 A. General Manojlo Milovanovic is chief -- was chief of staff of the
7 Main Staff of Army of Republika Srpska between May and until the end of
8 the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and he was the duty commander of the
9 Main Staff. He was the -- he was directly subordinated to
10 General Mladic.
11 Q. You said between May and until the end of the war. Is that May
12 of which year?
13 A. May 1992, since the beginning of creation of the RS Army. But he
14 was associated with General Mladic, according to his statement, a long
15 time before. He knows him since 1981, I believe.
16 Q. And can you just tell us, in brief, how you took the statement.
17 Who was present? How much time did General Milovanovic have to review
18 the materials?
19 A. When General Milovanovic was here -- was here in The Hague, it
20 was April 2010, he received from Prosecution the binders containing the
21 scanned -- the hard copies of the scanned note-books, and he received
22 from the Prosecution also the table with -- containing the information
23 about the material handed over to him for review. And his table -- in
24 this table, he marked -- marked the pages when -- where he recognised the
25 handwriting of General Mladic.
1 Q. And was that --
2 A. At that time, we were -- we have -- we had in our possession only
3 the copy of this material. We had no -- we had no original material.
4 The only original material in our possession at that time was five
5 note-books seized on the 4th December 2005. These five note-books were
6 also showed to General Manojlo Milovanovic, but roughly when I met him
7 here in The Hague in April 2010. But one year before,
8 General Milovanovic had opportunity to look at this note-book, these five
9 note-books which were shown to him by my colleague investigator in,
10 I think it was July 2009.
11 Q. So General Milovanovic had the opportunity to see, I think, all
12 of the items appearing on our paper hand-out, namely, the five note-books
13 from the December 2008 search, and then 18 documents corresponding to the
14 first 17 items in Table B.
15 I think there's then one final item in Table B, the last line,
16 which is number 6828, and can you tell us whether that was shown to
17 General Milovanovic to review the handwriting? And tell us what that
18 document is, according to description.
19 A. Just for clarification, General Milovanovic had opportunity to
20 see the five original note-books seized on -- in December 2008, and in
21 April 2010 he had opportunity to see the scanned version of the documents
22 seized on 23 February 2010, but without document mentioned in our list
23 with 65 ter 06828. This is original spiral-bound note-book with
24 handwritten entries of Ratko Mladic regarding a meeting conducted on 7
25 July 1994 in Valjevo.
1 Q. So apart from that last item and for the other documents, did
2 General Milovanovic recognise the handwriting?
3 A. Yes, he recognised the handwriting of General Mladic, except a
4 few pages from the scanned version, but they were handwritten pages and
5 also typed pages of the documents. Later on, we discovered, when we
6 received originals, that they were not the part of the note-books,
7 itself, but they were just pages slipped inside the note-books, or piece
8 of paper slipped inside the note-books.
9 Q. So the only handwriting that wasn't General Mladic's was written
10 on these loose pages that you've just mentioned; is that right?
11 A. Yes, it's correct. General Milovanovic described it in the table
12 attached to his statement.
13 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, at this stage we've now referred to
14 all of the note-books that were seized in the two searches. It's the
15 Prosecution's proposal to tender these materials as an entire group, and
16 I don't know whether it's preferable to do that at this time or to
17 continue with authentication with corroboration materials and then
18 address that issue at the end. I'd rather not do it one by one at this
19 stage, I think it will eat up time, and it's not, perhaps, necessary to
20 do it, either, in front of the witness.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would prefer the latter.
22 Mr. Tolimir.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
24 First of all, I wanted to point out that it's a lot of material,
25 and the relevance of that material is in dispute. We only heard the
1 witness confirming that General Milovanovic confirmed the authenticity of
2 the handwriting and not the authenticity of the contents. That issue was
3 not touched upon at all. Only the issue of the handwriting was
4 discussed. That's all I can conclude, based on the witness's testimony,
5 because I haven't had occasion to see the material.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Elderkin, did the -- did Mr. Tolimir have the
7 occasion to see the material?
8 MR. ELDERKIN: I believe that all the materials have been
9 available for some time on the EDS system. I can, with a moment, find
10 out the exact dates of disclosure, but, yes, all that material has been
11 passed on to the Defence. Also, I understand, for the 2010 seized
12 materials, not just the handwritten originals in B/C/S, but also typed-up
13 transcripts to make it easier to read.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, we understood the position of the
15 OTP, that Mr. Blaszczyk is only testifying about the chain of custody and
16 how this material came into the possession of the Prosecution. Is that
17 correct, Mr. Elderkin?
18 MR. ELDERKIN: He will also testify, again with Your Honour's
19 leave, of course, about a chart of corroboration where we will pick out
20 some examples to show the relationship between entries in the note-books
21 and other documents or sources of materials to provide an additional
22 basis for their authenticity.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: At this point in time, you should continue.
24 MR. ELDERKIN: And that leads me in fact very well into the next
25 area, which is to look into some of these corroborating materials.
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir wants to have the floor again.
2 Mr. Tolimir.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
4 You asked whether we checked the disclosed material. I can only
5 see what is relevant, because there is material from 1992 through to
6 1995, and it would take a lot of time, whereas we received that material
7 in the course of the proceedings. I cannot and do not want to go through
8 it all. I could only see what was relevant; that is to say, the events
9 in Srebrenica and Zepa.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Your position is understandable, Mr. Tolimir, and
11 this is the reason why we said when you -- that you should decide when
12 you will commence your cross-examination of Mr. Blaszczyk on this topic.
13 Have you already decided on that?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We did not make a decision. I
15 simply put my question so that Mr. Elderkin could tell us whether there
16 are any other ways of checking the authenticity of the note-books. Only
17 the handwriting was checked, but what about the contents, because they
18 were created at different points in time.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Elderkin.
20 MR. ELDERKIN: In response to the authenticity, then, obviously,
21 all of the information provided so far by Mr. Blaszczyk, including,
22 obviously, the key information as to where the note-books were originally
23 obtained by the Serbian MUP and then the OTP, is of very, very great
24 importance in establishing their authenticity. In terms of corroborating
25 the information written in those note-books, we have examples that we're
1 going to go through for some of those note-books, and otherwise, then, as
2 we said, given that we consider these to have been created by
3 General Mladic, according to another -- among other things,
4 General Milovanovic's review of the handwriting, these reflect what he
5 was writing during the periods indicated in the wartime period and should
6 be admitted for their relevance both to General Mladic's conduct, his
7 associates and associations with certain individuals during the war.
8 Obviously, General Mladic was a member of our JCE, alongside
9 General Tolimir, and many other people with whom the Trial Chamber and
10 the Defence is familiar, and the information in there, although not all
11 specific to Srebrenica and Zepa, is highly informative about the workings
12 of General Mladic, his core officers of the Main Staff and the actions
13 and intentions that General Mladic conducted during the war.
14 So that's a short speech I wanted to save until the end when we
15 would actually seek to tender them, but that's my response on
16 General Tolimir's question about the relevance, and we believe all these
17 materials are, prima facie, relevant and should be seen as a single group
18 of documents. And in terms of further corroboration or authentication,
19 that will be covered during the next part of my examination.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: One remark: Mr. Elderkin, I think you should
21 have said General Mladic was an alleged member of our JCE.
22 MR. ELDERKIN: It's certainly an allegation of ours, yes.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. We will come back to these decisions
24 at a later point in time. You should continue your examination-in-chief.
25 MR. ELDERKIN: I'd like at this point to ask to pass up an
1 original of one of the note-books. This is 65 ter 5490. And if we can
2 also see that, please, in e-court. And this has already been shown to
3 the Defence at the end of the last break. And, of course, if Your
4 Honours would like to see it first before passing it to the witness, then
5 perhaps the usher could assist.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just for a first impression, it would be helpful
7 for the Chamber to have it, the original.
8 MR. ELDERKIN: Just for Your Honours' information, while you're
9 looking at it, the yellow Post-It is obviously a marking I've put on
10 there in order to indicate the area of pages we'll be looking at in due
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Did the Defence have the opportunity to have a
13 look at it? Thank you very much. Mr. Gajic is confirming that.
14 Please give it to the witness.
15 MR. ELDERKIN:
16 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, the note-book that you have before you, 65 ter
17 5490, was one of the ones taken in the first search. Can you just tell
18 us, did -- for clarification, did General Mladic's wife make any markings
19 in the five note-books taken during the first search?
20 A. During the first search conducted on -- in December 2008,
21 Bosiljka Mladic, the wife of General Mladic, didn't make any marks in the
22 note-books seized at that time. But this is one of the note-books seized
23 on the 4 December 2008, and which one I collected later on, on 27,
24 I think, March 2009.
25 MR. ELDERKIN: If we could see now Exhibit P991, which is our
1 Srebrenica trial video, and just a very brief section of that, starting
2 at 1 hour 23 minutes and 57 seconds through to 1 hour 24 minutes and 55
4 [Video-clip played]
5 "Our own medicine are almost zero. The only thing what I can do
6 is the two surgery teams. They have done it in the afternoon and
7 tonight, but that's a big surgery for only a couple of persons, and then
8 the medicine for those special surgeries as well. So if I may say so,
9 sir, I think that the evacuation of the wounded could be the second thing
10 to be organised."
11 MR. ELDERKIN:
12 Q. The Court has seen this video before, Mr. Blaszczyk, but can you
13 remind us what we're seeing here? Where are we, when are we?
14 A. This is meeting between General Mladic and officers of the
15 Main Staff -- officers of the Army of Republika Srpska between DutchBat
16 commander and Muslim representative in -- Nesim Mandic is visible on this
17 video. And this meeting was conducted on 11 July 1995 in Bratunac, in
18 Hotel Fontana. This is the second meeting. On this picture right now,
19 we see Colonel Karremans, the commander of the DutchBat, the interpreter,
20 and Colonel Radislav Jankovic, the Main Staff intelligence officer.
21 Q. And just on the far left, we've seen him during the earlier
22 sequence, but we do see the arms and part of some camouflage. Who was
23 that, if you recall?
24 A. You're referring to the man who is not visible right now, yes,
25 but --
1 Q. The hands and the arm on the far left-hand side corner.
2 A. Yes, we see they are the hands of General Mladic. And if you
3 look, Your Honours, what he's doing right now, he's taking some notes in
4 a note-book. If you would have the better picture of this -- of this
5 clip, we should see -- we should see that this is note-book I have in
6 front of me right now. The watermark of the pads of these note-books are
7 visible on this clip. And also what we had -- what was said by
8 Colonel Karremans is written in the note-book of General Mladic. He's
9 taking notes in this note-book.
10 MR. ELDERKIN: So if we could take those points one by one.
11 Could we first of all see a still image which was taken from the
12 trial video. Your Honours, this is with your leave, because this still
13 image was added to our 65 ter list at number 6836 and we haven't made a
14 separate application for its addition but because it's a still image from
15 an already admitted exhibit, I hope that it's acceptable simply to give a
16 slightly better quality view of material that's already in evidence
17 rather than trying to get the best freeze frame possible.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If I'm not mistaken, that was done by an e-mail
19 before the hearing of today, to add this document, this still.
20 MR. ELDERKIN: Yes, yes, I believe so. Ms. Stewart is
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think we can include that in the decision, the
23 oral decision we have made this morning.
24 MR. ELDERKIN: I'm grateful, Your Honours. That's 6836, please.
25 Okay, I said it was a better image. I hope it's slightly
1 clearer, at least. And for the Court's information, this is a clip taken
2 from slightly later in the video with a better view of both
3 General Mladic and the book in front of him.
4 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, you referred to some kind of watermark in the
5 book. Can you indicate where that can be seen, if it can be seen?
6 A. Yes. This watermark is visible here on the page -- on both
7 pages, on the right top corner of the pages. Okay, the picture is not
8 best quality, but if we would have the hard copy of this picture, I think
9 it's better visible.
10 Q. And are you referring to the marks that appear just below,
11 I think, a cigarette lighter and then just in the bottom corner of the
12 book as it is on the screen?
13 A. Yes, it's correct, I'm referring to these watermarks -- these
14 watermarks of a pen. If we look at the original, we see the same pen
15 here -- the same watermark here.
16 MR. ELDERKIN: And could we see now -- go back to the note-book
17 which, as I say, is 5490.
18 I would ask also for 6836 to be admitted at this point.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The number is not recorded. You should repeat
21 MR. ELDERKIN: 6836, 6836.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And this is the video still we have just seen; is
23 that correct?
24 MR. ELDERKIN: That's correct, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1390, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Would it be helpful to put the original on the
3 ELMO with these pages to have the possibility to compare?
4 MR. ELDERKIN: I think that would be rather better than trying to
5 look on the copy on the screen, indeed.
6 And if we could go to pages starting at 227 in the B/C/S and,
7 I think, 224 in the English on the screen, just to have that as a backup.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have it now on the ELMO visible, the original.
9 MR. ELDERKIN: Okay.
10 Q. So we can see here two pages from the note-book. Mr. Blaszczyk,
11 could you, again, remind us which of the parts you described as being the
13 A. I described the two watermarks is visible on this page, one on
14 the page marked here with ERN number 0649-0552. We see the shape of the
15 pen. And in another -- and in another page, on the right-hand top side
16 of this page, we see also another watermark in the shape of the pen.
17 It's this -- and also it's visible here, because it's transparent, that
18 on the -- in this place, we see -- we see -- we see the watermark from
19 the next page, from the following page.
20 MR. ELDERKIN: I don't know whether we can zoom out the ELMO
21 without asking the usher to go back out. I don't know whether that's
22 automated. Zoom out, actually, so we can see the whole page, please.
23 And then if we just zoom in to the center of the left-hand page. Just to
24 make clear, I think, the date, just to -- so that is great.
25 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, can you see it? I'm not asking you to read
1 handwritten Cyrillic, but if you can see a date there, can you tell us
2 what that date is?
3 A. This is 11 July 1995, and above this date is mentioned Bratunac.
4 And underline -- the word "sastanak," it's mean "meeting."
5 MR. ELDERKIN: At this point, it would be best to go back to the
6 copy in e-court, I think, to have the English translation also visible,
8 Q. Okay. So, first of all, here we have the same page as the one
9 we've just seen on the ELMO. And as you say, it reads starting with
10 Bratunac and the date, 11 July 1995. And then can you tell us who is
11 listed as being present at the meeting? Can you see the names of any of
12 the attendees?
13 A. This is meeting with UN commander in Srebrenica and
14 representative of Muslim side is listed here on this page as
15 Colonel Karremans and Colonel Jankovic.
16 Q. And in the video we just saw, did we see either of those
18 A. Yes. On the video, we see both of these gentlemen.
19 MR. ELDERKIN: And if we could go now to the next page, please,
20 in both the English and the B/C/S.
21 Q. First of all, Mr. Blaszczyk, if you recall from the short
22 video-clip, could you remind us what was the nature or the subject of the
23 conversation we heard on the video?
24 A. Colonel Karremans was passing information to General Mladic about
25 situation in Potocari, situation with refugees in Potocari, with the
1 people who were in -- who were gathered in Potocari, that they had a
2 problem with food, medicines.
3 Q. And can you see, at the bottom of the English translation,
4 I think, the third line from the end, could you read that to us, please?
5 A. Yeah, referring to the surgical teams?
6 Q. Yes, please.
7 A. "I have two surgical teams. They performed a few serious
8 operations and used up the medicines."
9 Q. Was that subject also something we just heard on the video?
10 A. Yes, we heard this on the video. It correspond to what we saw on
11 the video.
12 Q. And as we saw on the ELMO, we're now looking at the right-hand
13 page of the diary, and does that correspond with where we saw
14 General Mladic writing while we were watching the video?
15 A. Yes, it corresponds. But if -- can we play the video again? It
16 will be visible more.
17 MR. ELDERKIN: And if we could do that again. It's only a short
18 clip. So it's, again, P991, starting at 1 hour 23 minutes and 57
20 [Video-clip played]
21 "Our own medicine are almost zero. The only thing what I can do
22 is the two surgery teams, they have done it in the afternoon and tonight,
23 is a big surgery. But that's only for a couple persons, and then the
24 medicines for those special surgeries is [indiscernible]."
25 THE WITNESS: And we saw right -- we see right now that
1 General Mladic is writing on the bottom of the right-hand page from
2 his -- in his note-book the information he's receiving from
3 Colonel Karremans.
4 MR. ELDERKIN: That's paused, for the record, at 1 hour and 24
5 minutes and 35 seconds.
6 THE WITNESS: And if you look -- if we look at the original of
7 this note-book in our possession right now, the entry -- the information,
8 what we heard from the video, is written on -- exactly in the same place.
9 MR. ELDERKIN: And if we could go back just to see that again, so
10 back to 65 ter 5490, please.
11 Q. And can you indicate where on the screen the information about
12 the surgical teams is located, if you can tell in the B/C/S?
13 A. This is, if we look at the original --
14 MR. ELDERKIN: Yes. If we could have the ELMO back up, then, and
15 to zoom out slightly, please, and move on to the right-hand page.
16 THE WITNESS: From the bottom, this is fifth line from the
17 bottom, and there is information about -- about two surgical teams, and
18 they perform a few serious operation and use up the medicines. I'm
19 referring to the original page.
20 MR. ELDERKIN:
21 Q. Could you perhaps indicate, Mr. Blaszczyk, with your finger, just
22 so it could be seen on the ELMO, if temporarily.
23 A. It's here [indicates], [B/C/S spoken].
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perhaps you can read the whole sentence.
25 THE WITNESS: In B/C/S, Your Honour?
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, please.
2 THE WITNESS: [B/C/S spoken]
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is it possible that we receive it in English, an
4 interpretation of that, what the witness is reading now? That would be
5 helpful so that we can have it on the record.
6 MR. ELDERKIN: Perhaps if we just put back up the 5490, and then
7 the English translation can be read into the record.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No. We want to hear the witness reading it, and
9 then we will receive the English interpretation.
10 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We would like to receive English interpretation.
12 Is that possible?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes. I have to --
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please repeat again in B/C/S.
15 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation] [In English] I don't know
16 whether I pronounced correctly or --
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic, can you help us?
18 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, good afternoon to
20 When Mr. Blaszczyk is reading in Serbian and at the same time the
21 interpreters in B/C/S are reading in Serbian, I would just like to ask
22 the B/C/S booth not to read when Mr. Blaszczyk is reading in B/C/S.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed. We want to hear, and the interpreters
24 should hear the witness reading in B/C/S, and then we would like to hear
25 the English interpretation directly from his reading so that we have the
1 record clear in English.
2 Please continue, or repeat, Mr. Blaszczyk.
3 THE WITNESS: Okay. What I can read here -- is written here is:
4 [Interpretation] I have here two surgical teams.
5 [In English] The next word I don't understand correctly, but the
6 next one is:
7 [Interpretation] "Several serious surgeries," and intelligible
8 [as interpreted] word read by Mr. Blaszczyk, followed by the word
9 "medicines. Evacuation of the wounded to be carried out in order or in
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Was there anything about the lack of medicine?
12 THE WITNESS: I think this is the word regarding medicine, the
13 third line from the bottom, but I'm not sure. You know, just I rely on
14 interpretation. In fact, this handwriting -- I can read Cyrillic, but
15 this handwriting is quite difficult to read from time to time.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
17 Mr. Elderkin, please carry on.
18 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you very much.
19 And I'm finished with the ELMO and with that exhibit for the time
20 being. Actually, I'm sorry, if we can just leave it with the witness.
21 First of all, I would like to ask to see page 231 of the same
22 exhibit in B/C/S and page 228 in English. And just zoom in on the
23 English a bit.
24 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, can you tell us what date this entry is and what
25 it's referring to, please?
1 A. The date here is 19 July 1995. The entry referred to the meeting
2 conducted in Boksanica Mountain at Check-Point 2, the meeting with
3 representatives -- with representatives of Muslim population from Zepa.
4 And we have listed here the name of the people who attended the meeting.
5 It was Hamdija Torlak and Dr. Benjamin Kulovac, and as well from VRS side
6 General Mladic, General Tolimir, and Lieutenant-Colonel Svetozar Kosoric,
7 and two members of UN troops, Lieutenant-Colonel Sejmon Dudnjik and
8 Major Andre Stefaniuk [phoen].
9 MR. ELDERKIN: And if we could now see a short video-clip which
10 is from Exhibit P593, and it's at 12 minutes and 3 seconds through 12
11 minutes and 50 seconds.
12 [Video-clip played]
13 MR. ELDERKIN: Just pause there, please. That's at 12 minutes
14 and 7 seconds.
15 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, could you tell us if you recognise any of the
16 people in this picture?
17 A. Yes, I do. The first man with big moustache is
18 Lieutenant-Colonel Svetozar Kosoric. He's Drina Corps intelligence
19 officer. And the next man with beard is the Muslim representative of
20 Muslims from Zepa, Dr. Benjamin Kulovac. And behind him is
21 Hamdija Torlak.
22 Q. And do you know where this video is being taken and on what date?
23 A. Yeah. This video was recorded on 19 July 1995 in Boksanica, at
24 the check-point handled by UNPROFOR.
25 MR. ELDERKIN: If we could continue, please.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 MR. ELDERKIN: Pause here, please, and this is at 12 minutes and
3 31 seconds.
4 Q. Could you tell us if you recognise or can identify either of the
5 two men who are in this image in military uniform?
6 A. The first man on the right-hand side, this is, of course,
7 General Ratko Mladic, and the man just with back -- with his back to us
8 is General Zdravko Tolimir. We could see him later on very clear.
9 Q. And do you see General Mladic also carrying a note-book with him?
10 A. Yes, General Mladic's hands are on the note-book. I have this
11 note-book just in front of me.
12 MR. ELDERKIN: And if we can continue again, please.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 MR. ELDERKIN: Okay. Thank you very much.
15 And the note-book that you have in front of you, that's 5490 that
16 we just saw before, watching the video. If we could put that back up
17 again, please.
18 Q. So you've mentioned to us some of the individuals you saw
19 arriving at a meeting at Boksanica on the 19th of July. And if you read
20 the entry before you to yourself, does this correspond to the meeting we
21 had been just watching, in part, on the video?
22 A. Yeah, the entry from this note-book are -- correspond to the
23 video we saw just a few seconds before.
24 MR. ELDERKIN: I'd like now to turn to some -- I'd like now to
25 turn to some documentary corroboration, which we'll start by looking at
1 65 ter 6826, please.
2 To make sure it's clear in the record, I see the correct
3 document. I said 6826, just to make sure people can find that in future.
4 I also have hard copies, Your Honours, of this document. I only
5 have, unfortunately, English copies. The B/C/S translation has only just
6 been prepared, although I can get a hard copy to hand to the Defence in
7 the break. It's not strictly necessary, I won't be referring to it to
8 the same extent as the first copy, but it's a chart that is a comparison
9 between various entries in different note-books and documents which the
10 Prosecution considers corroborate those entries. So it's something that
11 we will, in due course, seek to tender into evidence. But if you'd like
12 a hard copy for yourselves and also for the Defence with B/C/S to follow
13 in the break, I can hand those out, or not, as you prefer.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think there's no need for that at the moment.
15 But you will explain what we are looking at on the screen.
16 MR. ELDERKIN: Indeed.
17 Q. So, Mr. Blaszczyk, can you tell us, what is this chart?
18 A. This is our comparison exercise we made some time ago. In this
19 chart, we see -- we see the entry from the note-books, particular
20 note-books. We see, of course, the note-books 65 ter list and date of
21 the entry, and this is -- and the next, for comparison purpose, we see --
22 we see another document or -- may I ask, you know, for the hard copy
23 of -- we see another document which corroborates to the entry from the
24 General Mladic note-books.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, please.
1 THE WITNESS: Description of these documents, of course.
2 MR. ELDERKIN: Perhaps we can just scroll to the right, since
3 it's a landscape document, just to see the other half of that page.
4 THE WITNESS: As I said, on the first columns we see the
5 note-book -- or the entry describing the note-book of General Mladic, the
6 entry from this note-book, and in the following columns we see the
7 corroborating material confirming, in fact, the entry from General Mladic
9 MR. ELDERKIN:
10 Q. And is this a version of a chart that was prepared and used in
11 the Karadzic case?
12 A. Yes, it's correct. The same chart was used in Karadzic case,
13 but, of course, with different 65 ter number, I believe.
14 Q. And I believe there's one correction to a 65 ter number that
15 needs to be made in this chart, on page 2.
16 If we could go to page 2 of both the English and B/C/S, please,
17 and focus in on the right-hand half of each of those pages, please.
18 In the second row there, so the one that starts on the left
19 "65 ter 4795," and that has the description of "Minutes of the 21st
20 session of the National Assembly of Republika Srpska," I believe that
21 that should be replaced by 65 ter 6801, but with the same description and
22 other references the same. Is that correct, Mr. Blaszczyk?
23 A. Yes. I checked it before we came to -- I came to the courtroom.
24 Yes, it should be replaced by another 65 ter number.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What is the reason for that?
1 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. Just wrongly this -- this 65 ter
2 number, 04795, corresponds to the documents. In fact, this is to the --
3 transcript of the session, of 21st session of National Assembly of
4 Republika Srpska, but we like to refer to that document simply as 21st
5 Assembly session.
6 MR. ELDERKIN:
7 Q. So is it right that the Prosecution has several versions of the
8 minutes or the transcript of the Assembly session, but by looking at
9 4795, the page references would not correspond to the section of those
10 minutes that we want to refer to, whereas looking at 6801, the page
11 references do correspond?
12 A. Yes, exactly. You know, this 65 ter number, 04795, do not
13 correspond exactly -- the B/C/S pages and the English pages do not
14 correspond to the entry from the General Mladic note-book. But using
15 another 65 ter number document mentioned by you just a while ago is the
16 document I referred comparing this entry from the Ratko Mladic note-book
17 and minutes of the 21st session of National Assembly.
18 Q. And apart from that correction to the table, do you know if the
19 other references for the diaries and the corroboration materials are
21 A. Should be correct. I checked it and should be correct, unless I
22 made a small mistake. But it should be correct. I check it.
23 Q. But I understand the only difference between the chart we're
24 seeing today in the Tolimir case and the chart that was used in the
25 Karadzic case originally prepared is that the 65 ter numbers, which are
1 obviously different in each case, have been replaced to reflect --
2 reflect the correct ones in each case?
3 A. Yes, it's correct. The only difference is the 65 ter number
4 within this -- this chart and the chart used during the Karadzic trial.
5 But I had opportunity to look at all these documents mentioned here on
6 this chart, and also I compared the contents of these documents with
7 entry from the note-books used by General Mladic.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I suppose it's only my misunderstanding. I
9 couldn't follow quite well. I have two questions.
10 Who prepared these charts we have now on the screen?
11 THE WITNESS: This chart has been prepared by my colleague from
12 analyst team, but I took the part to creation this chart. I think, to
13 review the documents you -- which are indicated in this chart.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: And what we see on the screen now, is that the
15 version which the OTP used in the Karadzic case or was that prepared for
16 this trial?
17 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, this version was prepared for Karadzic
18 case, but we change here in this chart only 65 ter numbers.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: What does that mean? What we are looking at, we
20 see many 65 ter numbers, beginning with 047, at least the first three
21 items in this list. Are these the numbers used in the Karadzic case or
22 in our trial?
23 THE WITNESS: I think I have different hard copy of --
24 MR. ELDERKIN: If I could be permitted to ask one very leading
25 question, that might explain this.
1 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, I think they are 65 ter number from
2 the Karadzic trial, but I have the proper hard copy of this.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You should clarify that. Otherwise, we are
4 really lost, and we should avoid such a confusion.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes. I believe what we have on the screen, this is
6 wrong chart, but I believe I have -- I have the correct one. Maybe I am
8 MR. ELDERKIN: Perhaps the best thing is to get the first page up
9 on the screen and --
10 THE WITNESS: Sorry. I look at the first page.
11 MR. ELDERKIN: So Mr. Blaszczyk is looking at the first page in
12 the hard copy.
13 Q. If we stay on the second page, Mr. Blaszczyk, is it correct that
14 the OTP took the chart used in Karadzic, which contained a Karadzic
15 65 ter number corresponding to a particular note-book, and then sought to
16 refer to a corroborating document again referred to by a specific
17 Karadzic 65 ter number, and then, in Tolimir, identified the same
18 documents in the Tolimir prosecution 65 ter list and replaced the
19 Karadzic 65 ter numbers with the Tolimir 65 ter numbers that we see in
20 the chart now?
21 A. Yes, yes, we have the version for Tolimir case here with
22 Tolimir's 65 ter number.
23 Q. Except that in one case, which is where the Prosecution replaced
24 a Karadzic 65 ter number with the Tolimir 65 ter number 4795, that, in
25 fact, should have been replaced with the Tolimir 65 ter number 6801,
1 because 4795 doesn't contain the relevant information as indicated in the
2 description before us. Does that sound correct to you?
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 MR. ELDERKIN: And, Your Honours, does that help you?
5 JUDGE FLUEGGE: With one additional question.
6 The hard copy you have in front of you, Mr. Blaszczyk, is that
7 exactly the same we see on the screen now?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, just I was wrong because I looked
9 at the first page of this document. But on the screen, we have the
10 second page, but it is exactly the same copy.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is the version prepared for this trial, for
12 the Tolimir case?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, you are correct, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: With the one exception of an error which occurred
15 with the number.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, with the one exception regarding the entries
17 related to the 21st session of the Assembly of Republika Srpska from 31st
18 October 1992.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now I think we have it clear.
20 If there are additional problems to be solved with this document,
21 you can prepare that during the break, Mr. Elderkin.
22 We must have our second break now, and we will resume at 1.00.
23 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Elderkin, please continue.
1 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you.
2 Your Honours, I'll be continuing by going through a section of
3 examples from the chart, so hopefully by the end of using it, the
4 function of the chart that we looked at just before the break will be
6 In addition, I would ask to tender the chart provisionally, but
7 pending the correction to that one number from 4795 to 6801. I think
8 that way, there will be less confusion for anyone looking at the chart in
9 future. That's 65 ter 6826.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1391, Your Honours.
12 MR. ELDERKIN: Could we please see 65 ter 6811.
13 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, can you just tell us, while we have the cover of
14 the exhibit on the screen, is this one of the note-books seized from the
15 Mladic house?
16 A. Yeah, this is -- yes, this is a scanned version of the note-book
17 seized at Mladic house on the 23rd of February, 2010, and I believe this
18 note-book has 65 ter number 06811.
19 MR. ELDERKIN: And if we could go, please, to page 123 in the
20 B/C/S and 124 in the English.
21 Q. And starting about a third of the way down the page, there is a
22 horizontal line and some writing with a date. Could you tell us, what is
23 the date and the writing that you read there?
24 A. We see the date, Tuesday, 9 June 1992, "Pale."
25 Q. And then beneath that, if you could continue reading, can you
1 tell us what is recorded here?
2 A. It's: "0920 hours. Meeting with the Presidency of SR BH.
3 "Present: Karadzic, Koljevic, Plavsic, Krajisnik, Djeric,
4 Mladic, Gvero, Tolimir, and the minute taker.
5 "Meeting: I briefed state and political leadership about the
6 situation on the front and the material resources for the war."
7 MR. ELDERKIN: And if we could see just the next page, please, in
8 both languages.
9 Q. And just the first part of that, starting with "General Gvero,"
10 can you tell us, what do you see there?
11 A. This is mentioned here, "General Gvero," and description of what
12 he said during the meeting:
13 "I gave a briefing about the situation I found in IBK, and the
14 1st and the 2nd Krajina Corps, as well as about the situation in the
15 command of ..." one of the units, if I look at the original.
16 "... in the Command of the PVO in the SR BH."
17 Q. And just the next two lines after that as well.
18 A. "He pointed out that civilian authorities and production were not
20 MR. ELDERKIN: Okay. So that's an entry in the Mladic note-book
21 65 ter 6811.
22 And could we please now see 65 ter 2450.
23 Q. Can you tell us, what is this document, please?
24 A. This is minutes of the 4th expanded meeting of the War Presidency
25 of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. The meeting took
1 place on 9 June 1992, and --
2 Q. Can you -- tell us who [Realtime transcript read in error "if
3 you"] attended that meeting, please, according to this document.
4 A. Yes. And according to this document, the following persons
5 attended at this meeting: It was Dr. Radovan Karadzic,
6 Dr. Biljana Plavsic, Dr. Nikola Koljevic, Momcilo Krajisnik,
7 Dr. Branko Ceric, General Ratko Mladic, General Gvero, and
8 Colonel Tolimir.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Elderkin, I'm sorry for interrupting you.
10 You were recorded having asked: "Tell us if you attended at that
11 meeting." I think that was a mistake.
12 MR. ELDERKIN: I meant "who." I hope it was a mistype of "who."
13 I apologise for anything I say that may not be clear, but I don't need to
14 as the witness that question nor hear his answer.
15 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, the list of attendees that you just mentioned, can
16 you tell us if that corresponds to the attendees listed in the Mladic
18 A. Yes, the list corresponds to the attendance list listed in Mladic
20 Q. And also I note that you read as the list of attendees, including
21 Tolimir, who was referred to as "Colonel Tolimir." Does that correspond
22 to the rank that now General Tolimir had at the time of the meeting, if
23 you know?
24 A. I don't remember, but I think the general was promoted for
25 general rank later on, but I don't remember.
1 Q. Okay. And if you could continue just with the paragraphs
2 underneath the attendees and tell us what is stated there.
3 And the highlighted part above there. I see the square being
4 drawn on the screen, but the two short paragraphs before the listed
5 numbers, so still the top half of the screen, please, starting with:
6 "General Mladic briefed the Presidency ..."
7 A. Yes, the entries from these minutes corresponds to the entry from
8 the Mladic note-book, and it's mentioned here that General Mladic
9 "briefed the Presidency in detail about the overall situation in the
10 Serbian Army and gave figures on the quantities of weapons, ammunition,
11 spare parts, reserves of oil and oil products, food, and other reserves."
12 Q. And for General Gvero, what is stated for him?
13 A. And General Gvero:
14 "General Gvero reported on the situation in the area of Banja
15 Luka Corps and proposed that the authorities be established at all levels
16 swiftly because of the widespread crimes."
17 Q. And does this correspond with what we've just seen in the Mladic
19 A. Yeah, this corresponds to the Mladic note-book. I think this is
20 from the page 123, 127 in English translation.
21 MR. ELDERKIN: And if we could just see again 65 ter 6826,
22 please, which is the chart we were discussing before the break. Perhaps
23 for this purpose, if we could just see the English version landscape
24 across the full screen and then afterwards show the B/C/S simply to
25 explain again the layout, having used this first example.
1 Q. So, Mr. Blaszczyk, if you look at the third entry down on this
2 chart, does this entry reflect the short analysis you've just given us
3 concerning the note-book and the corresponding minutes?
4 A. Yes, exactly. This is entry referred to the 9 June 1992. This
5 is entry from the General Mladic note-book and to the description of the
6 document we seen just a few seconds ago.
7 MR. ELDERKIN: And I'd ask, please, for the admission of 65 ter
8 2450, which were the minutes that we just saw.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1392, Your Honours.
11 MR. ELDERKIN: Your Honours, just to set out where I'm going with
12 the rest of the examination, I have four further examples from this
13 corroboration chart. I will be asking, at the end, to have admitted all
14 of the corroborating materials listed here, including those which I won't
15 specifically bring up as examples. If it's necessary to bring each one
16 up in turn, I can, but the process, as I'll show with each example, is
17 the same, based on the chart. And we would propose that the underlying
18 materials to the chart should be admitted once its function has been
19 shown. Their relevance is clear from the description on this chart, and
20 the purpose is, for this corroboration, obviously relevant to the Mladic
21 note-books. That's the submission I'll make later, but if I could just
22 continue giving examples, that's how I would prefer to continue.
23 I don't know if the Defence would like to see the B/C/S version
24 with the same layout that we have just been looking at in English. If
25 you would, then we can look at that for a moment, but I don't need to
1 refer to the content that we're seeing on the screen otherwise.
2 Mr. Gajic seems to be indicating we don't need to do that, so
3 I'll continue, please, with my second example.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please do that.
5 MR. ELDERKIN: Could we have now 65 ter 6814.
6 Q. And again, Mr. Blaszczyk, while the English is loading up, could
7 you tell us, what is this -- what is this document?
8 A. We see the cover page of the note-book used by
9 General Ratko Mladic. This note-book was seized during the search on 23
10 February 2010, and this note-book is listed under MUP inventory list as
11 note-book number 46.
12 MR. ELDERKIN: And if we could please go to the B/C/S page 297,
13 English page 320.
14 Q. And can you tell us, please, Mr. Blaszczyk, what is the event?
15 Can you see in the English translation, and where does that translation
16 correspond on the B/C/S page?
17 A. On the left-hand side, we have the translation from the page 180
18 from the original note-book of General Ratko Mladic. It -- the entry
19 from this page corresponds to the 23rd session of National Assembly.
20 MR. ELDERKIN: And if we could see, please, then --
21 Q. And could you tell us where that appears on the B/C/S page?
22 A. We see, on the B/C/S page, this is the entry under -- not exactly
23 on the bottom, but -- yeah, this entry on the bottom starting from the 16
25 Q. Is that the part we see with heavy underlining of the title?
1 A. Yes, correct. It's written by red ink.
2 MR. ELDERKIN: And could we see the next page, please, in both
3 the English and B/C/S. And if we could see the top half of the page,
5 Q. And can you please tell us, Mr. Blaszczyk, what you see for the
6 second entry, the second of the starred -- the second starred bullet
7 point from the top?
8 A. It's mentioned here that -- English translation, that:
9 "Our soldiers deliberately fire at transformer stations in order
10 to take some oil."
11 Q. And what is the word that appears at the beginning of that?
12 A. "Herceg."
13 MR. ELDERKIN: And could we please, then, see 65 ter 4797.
14 Q. Can you tell us, what is this document, please?
15 A. This is transcript of that 23 -- 23rd session of the National
16 Assembly, conducted on 17 December 1992.
17 Q. And does that correspond with the event indicated in the
18 note-book entry that we just saw?
19 A. Yes, the entry from the General Mladic note-book corroborate to
20 this minute or transcript from this session, 23rd session, held on 17
21 December 1992.
22 MR. ELDERKIN: Could we please go to the B/C/S page 66, which is
23 English page 71. And, in fact, if we can just go back, sorry, one page
24 back in each language, so page 65 in B/C/S and 70 in English, so we can
25 see who is the speaker for that long passage.
1 Q. At the bottom of the page, Mr. Blaszczyk, can you tell us who is
3 A. The speaker mentioned here in this transcript is
4 Mr. Nikola Erceg.
5 Q. And do you happen to know who he is, Mr. Blaszczyk?
6 A. No.
7 MR. ELDERKIN: We can now go to the next page, so 66 and 71,
8 B/C/S and English.
9 Q. And reading, I think, seven lines down from the top of the
10 English, Mr. Blaszczyk, can you tell us what you read in the sentence
11 starting in that seventh line.
12 A. "Electric energy people say that our soldiers are shooting with
13 their guns, as the Croats say, at transformer stations for fun and are
14 pleased when oil leaks from such stations."
15 Q. And again, Mr. Blaszczyk, does this correspond with the
16 information that we saw recorded in the note-book?
17 A. Yeah, this entry corresponds to the entry from the General Mladic
18 note-book. When he mentioned the name, he made a mistake. You know, he
19 mentioned the name of the speaker as Herceg, not Erceg, but the contents
20 of this speech is:
21 "Our soldiers deliberately fire at transformer station in order
22 to take some oil."
23 MR. ELDERKIN: And, Your Honours, we ask for the admission of
24 this Assembly session transcript, which is 65 ter 4797.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1393, Your Honours.
2 MR. ELDERKIN: As a third example, please, I would like to have
3 65 ter 6815.
4 Q. And, again, while we're loading up the English, Mr. Blaszczyk,
5 could you tell us, what is this document, if you know?
6 A. Yes. This is note-book seized from General Mladic house on the
7 23 February 2010. It's marked by the Serbian MUP as note-book -- as item
8 number 30. This is note-book covering the period from 2nd January 1993
9 to 28 January 1993.
10 MR. ELDERKIN: And if we could please go to B/C/S page 77,
11 page 76 in English. And if we could have the second half of the page
12 from the -- yes, exactly. And perhaps the same in English, just above
13 the word "Pale" downwards.
14 Q. Please, could you tell us, what is the event recorded here?
15 A. This is:
16 "Pale, 19 January 1993. 25th session of Assembly of
17 Republika Srpska."
18 Q. And I'd like to refer to the name "Vojislav Maksimovic." Could
19 you tell us what is written beneath his name.
20 A. Below his name is written, in Mladic diary:
21 "We should reject all types of pressure and ultimatums and
23 "Let's reject the map.
24 "Let's negotiate wisely and trust in our strength and weapons."
25 MR. ELDERKIN: Please could we have 65 ter 4799.
1 Q. And could you please tell us, what is this document?
2 A. This is transcript of the 25th session of National Assembly of
3 Republika Srpska, held on 19 and on 20 January 1993.
4 Q. So is this the same event that we just saw recorded in the
6 A. Yes, yes, it's correct, it's corroborating material to the
7 entries in the note-book we discussed a few seconds ago.
8 MR. ELDERKIN: Could we please go to B/C/S page 15 and English
9 page 16. And we'd like to see the top half of the English page, please,
10 but the bottom half of the B/C/S.
11 Q. Mr. Blaszczyk, starting from the top of the English page, could
12 you tell us what's being discussed here.
13 A. Okay. It's discussion about Mr. Maksimovic. He says that --
15 "That is why we must say this idea and with utmost resolve that
16 we are not afraid and do not accept any of the dictates or blackmail
17 which have been coming out our way for some time now from ruthless
18 Catholic and anti-Orthodox community."
19 MR. ELDERKIN: And could we just go back one page, to page 15 in
20 English, so we can just see the confirmation that this is Mr. Maksimovic
22 THE WITNESS: Yes. In this page, the page previous, we see the
23 name of Mr. Maksimovic, Vojislav Maksimovic, as a speaker.
24 MR. ELDERKIN:
25 Q. And, again, does this then correspond with the note-book entry
1 that we saw?
2 A. Yes, it's correct, it corresponds to the note-book that we saw a
3 while ago.
4 MR. ELDERKIN: If I may tender this document as well, Your
5 Honours, please, and it's 65 ter 4799.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be admitted into evidence.
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1394, Your Honours.
8 MR. ELDERKIN: Please now see 65 ter 6817.
9 Q. And what is this document, please?
10 A. On the right-hand side, we see the cover page of the note-book
11 seized also on the 23 February 2010 in Mladic house, and this note-book
12 has been marked by Serbian police as item number 44. And it covered the
13 period 28 October 1993 to 15 January 1994.
14 MR. ELDERKIN: And could we please see B/C/S page 39 and English
15 page 35.
16 Q. Can you tell us, please, what event is being recorded here?
17 A. This entry refers to the event from 18 November 1993. This is a
18 meeting in Geneva, and in this entry in Mladic note-book, the
19 participants are mentioned here. The delegation of RS: Dr. Karadzic,
20 Krajisnik, Mladic, Kalinic, Plavsic, and others. And from the other
21 side, Boban Petkovic, Mr. Ogata, Silajdzic, and Siber.
22 MR. ELDERKIN: And if we can go, please, to the next page in both
23 languages, and, I believe, one more page in English, so page 37 in
25 Q. Now, can you tell us, please, what is recorded underneath the
1 name "Ogata"?
2 A. They are the words of Mr. Ogata, that General Mladic just noted
3 his words. The words are:
4 "We have prepared a joint declaration that I hope you will sign
6 Q. And at the bottom of the English page, there is the phrase
7 starting: "My questions ..." could you tell us what you read there.
8 A. "My questions: Which materials are at issue? Who are they
9 intended for? How will they be delivered? How and where will they be
10 inspected? Where will delivery be made from?"
11 Q. And a receipt above that as well -- sorry, to jump backwards, but
12 under "Mrs. Biljevska," can you tell us also what you see there. So it's
13 in the middle of the page.
14 A. Yes, Mrs. Biljevska mentions President Karadzic [Realtime
15 transcript read in error "Radic"] and said that:
16 "General Mladic had several objections to item 3."
17 Q. And beneath that, we've seen questions, have we, from
18 General Mladic under "My questions" that you just read to us?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. ELDERKIN: Could we now see, please, 65 ter 6805.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Elderkin, in page 83, line 4, we see
22 "President Radic." I think we saw in the document "President Karadzic."
23 Is that correct?
24 MR. ELDERKIN: That is correct, thank you.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please carry on.
1 MR. ELDERKIN:
2 Q. What is this document, please?
3 A. This is joint declaration signed by Silajdzic, Karadzic, and
5 MR. ELDERKIN: And can we just see the final page of that in each
6 language so we can hopefully see the signatories to confirm that.
7 THE WITNESS: And we see that this declaration has been signed on
8 18 November 1993 in Geneva.
9 MR. ELDERKIN:
10 Q. And does that correspond, again, with what we've just read about
11 in the Mladic note-book?
12 A. Yes, it corresponds to the Mladic note-books entry from 18
13 November 1993, when he mentioned Mr. Ogata.
14 MR. ELDERKIN: And can we also see, please, at point 3 of the
15 declaration, which I think we need to go back one page in English. At
16 the bottom of that page, please.
17 Q. And can you tell us what point 3 concerns?
18 A. This concerns the humanitarian aid, exactly:
19 "Allow UNHCR and ICRC to determine, without any conditionality or
20 linkage, the content of humanitarian assistance, including priority
21 winterisation needs and all materials, supplies, gas and other fuel
22 necessary for the survival of the civilian population, excluding, of
23 course, materials of war, and to monitor that this assistance is not
24 misused for military purposes."
25 Q. And does the content of that item reflect the issues indicated in
1 Mladic's note-book which were of concern to him?
2 A. Yes, this is correct. From the bottom of the page in Mladic
3 note-book, we see his concerns.
4 MR. ELDERKIN: And could I ask for the admission of this document
5 as well, please, 65 ter 6805?
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be admitted.
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1395, Your Honours.
8 MR. ELDERKIN: I think I have time for just one more of the
9 examples, which is my last example. So I would ask, please, to see,
10 again, 65 ter 5490 [Realtime transcript read in error "9450"], which is
11 the note-book for which we have the original in court today. And we can
12 go straight, please, to B/C/S page 328 and English page 324.
13 Q. Can you please tell us what event is described here?
14 A. On the middle of the page, we see that this is the description of
15 the meeting which took place in Dobanovci on 25th August 1995. And here
16 we have also listed a list of the persons who attended the meeting.
17 MR. ELDERKIN: And if we can go on to the next page, please, in
18 both English and in B/C/S.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Elderkin, could you please repeat the 65 ter
20 of that exhibit?
21 MR. ELDERKIN: The 65 ter number is 5490.
22 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It was recorded in a different way on page 84,
23 line 23, but now I think it's clear it's 5490. Thank you.
24 MR. ELDERKIN: Thank you.
25 Q. And can you tell us, Mr. Blaszczyk, how the text ends on this
2 A. There is a note mentioning that:
3 "Continued in next note-book."
4 MR. ELDERKIN: And can we see, please, now 65 ter 6822.
5 Q. And, again, while it's loading up, if you could please tell us,
6 what is this document?
7 A. This is -- this is Mladic note-book, but this note-book was
8 seized on 23 February 2010. And we see, on the first page of this
9 note-book, you know, the written text here, that this continuation from
10 the previous note-book, the note-book, in fact, which was seized by
11 Serbian MUP in December 2008.
12 MR. ELDERKIN: And if we could go to B/C/S page 11.
13 Q. Does this now correspond with what we're seeing on the English
14 translation page?
15 A. Yes, this corresponds to the English translation now.
16 Q. And what is the date and the location at the top of this page?
17 A. There is the date "25th -- 25 August 1995," and the location
18 mentioned here is "Dobanovci."
19 Q. And can you continue reading just from there down, where it says:
21 A. "Meeting of the Serbian leadership, continued from the previous
23 And: "Karadzic."
24 Q. And the next line, please.
25 A. "Thinks out loud about the role of USA."
1 MR. ELDERKIN: Could we now see, please, 65 ter 6800.
2 Q. And could you please tell us, what is this document?
3 A. As we see here in translation, this is record of meeting of
4 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and RS representatives of the highest
5 political and military leadership. The meeting was held on 25th August
6 1995 at the Army of Yugoslavia residence in Dobanovci.
7 MR. ELDERKIN: And could we go, please, to B/C/S page 7, English
8 page 6.
9 Q. And perhaps you could just tell us, starting from the top of the
10 page, what is recorded there.
11 A. It's mentioned here that, in meantime, about 1545 hours, the
12 Generals Milan Gvero and Zdravko Tolimir joined the meeting. But the
13 next paragraph is about President Karadzic:
14 "... who began thinking out loud by saying that America now wants
15 peace, but is not entirely opposed to war."
16 This corresponds to the entry from the note-book we saw just a
17 while ago.
18 Q. And the date of this meeting corresponds to both of the two
19 note-books we saw at the beginning of this example; is that correct?
20 A. Yes, it's correct. The date -- the date is the same, 25th August
22 MR. ELDERKIN: And I'd ask, please, to have this exhibit
23 admitted, too, as -- the 65 ter number is 6800.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This will be admitted as well.
25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1396, Your Honours.
1 MR. ELDERKIN: At this stage, Your Honours, I don't have,
2 fortunately, given the time, any further questions of Mr. Blaszczyk,
3 unless it's necessary for the purposes of tendering the other
4 corroborating materials listed in the corroboration chart to show further
5 examples. But at this time, I'd, first of all, move for the admission of
6 those additional corroborating materials, and then, perhaps not right now
7 but when it's convenient, to address the issue of the note-books,
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: You would assist the Chamber if you could perhaps
10 send by e-mail the list of these documents you are tendering, because
11 it's quite confusing. We have taken notes, all of us, of course, but we
12 would like to know. You can do that by tomorrow morning so that we have
13 a clear record on the documents you are tendering.
14 MR. ELDERKIN: Absolutely, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
16 We have to adjourn now, and we will resume tomorrow in the
17 morning. But perhaps you can tell us: That concludes your
18 examination-in-chief, except for tendering of the documents; is that
20 MR. ELDERKIN: That is correct, yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
22 Mr. Tolimir, can you tell us, have you made a decision if you can
23 well commence your cross-examination tomorrow? What is your position?
24 And if -- how many hours will you need for cross-examination of this
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we can only base
2 ourselves on what Mr. Blaszczyk and Mr. Elderkin discussed, not on the
3 basis of documents, because I looked only at the part of this material
4 that is relevant to those days in August, to the indictment. I did not
5 look at the part of the material concerning 1992 and 1993. Therefore, we
6 would need time to study all these documents, to ask questions on that
7 basis. It involves 20 to 30 binders of documents. Until I have studied
8 the contents of the documents, and for that I would need time and
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Does that mean you are not in a position to
11 commence your cross-examination tomorrow?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's right, Mr. President,
13 because we haven't read all the documents that we need to know in order
14 to cross-examine.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This was part of our oral decision this morning,
16 that it is in your hands when you will commence the cross-examination.
17 I take it that there is no need to have Mr. Blaszczyk here
18 tomorrow morning. Is there another witness available, Mr. Elderkin or
19 Mr. Vanderpuye?
20 MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Well, yes and no. There is a witness available, and that is
22 Mr. Janc, for the purposes of concluding the redirect examination
23 concerning his testimony on the Skorpions video and the related
24 authenticity. I don't know whether or not -- and I think I've asked
25 Mr. Gajic whether or not General Tolimir intends to move or petition the
1 Trial Chamber for a re-cross-examination on that issue, because, as I
2 recall, he did say something to that effect during the course of the
3 redirect examination that's occurred thus far.
4 Beyond Mr. Janc, Mr. President, we don't have another witness
5 available. I don't know whether you were aware, but a witness that we
6 did have scheduled for this week had some difficulties securing a
7 passport in order to travel to The Hague for purposes of giving his
8 testimony, which was not resolved until, as I understand it, just
9 recently. He will be available next week to testify, but clearly can't
10 be here tomorrow, and so we don't have a witness to fill that space.
11 I would also point out, though, that with respect to the
12 testimony of Mr. Blaszczyk concerning these Mladic-related materials,
13 fundamentally, the testimony turns on the chain of custody and the
14 authenticity of those materials as opposed to the relevance of the
15 content of each of these materials, and I don't know whether or not
16 General Tolimir's considered the area of cross-examination in that
17 respect as to whether or not he can proceed based upon part of the
18 cross-examination, which would be, of course, the chain of custody issue.
19 He's had those documents, I believe, for quite some time. And as the
20 Trial Chamber knows, he was alerted to Mr. Blaszczyk's testimony, in
21 respect of that part of his testimony, anyway, I think, a week or two
22 ago. So maybe he -- maybe we can consider doing that as well. But other
23 than those options, I'm afraid there's nothing else we can do.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In any case, we will sit tomorrow morning to
25 conclude the testimony of Mr. Janc, the redirect of Mr. Janc, and we will
1 wait if there will be any motion of the Defence to have the possibility
2 to put questions to that witness, Mr. Janc. And I think the position of
3 Mr. Tolimir was very clear and that he will not commence his
4 cross-examination, and we gave him the right to postpone that
6 If you change your position by tomorrow, it's open to you to
7 commence your cross-examination of Mr. Blaszczyk, if you want to do so.
8 We adjourn and resume tomorrow morning in this courtroom at 9.00.
9 [The witness stands down]
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.51 p.m.,
11 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 25th day of
12 November, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.