Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8779

 1                           Monday, 13 December 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good afternoon to everybody.  As already

 6     indicated on Friday, we are sitting only with two judges, pursuant to

 7     Rule 15 bis.  I would like to go into a private session for a moment.

 8                           [Private session]

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22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.  Thank

24     you.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The witness should be brought in, please.  And

Page 8782

 1     for that purpose, we should go into closed session.

 2                           [Closed session]

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11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session, thank

13     you.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Good afternoon, sir.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Would you please read aloud the affirmation on

17     the card which is shown to you now.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

19     speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

20                           WITNESS:  WITNESS PW-001

21                           [Witness answered through Interpreter]

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down.

23             There are protective measures in place for you, like face

24     distortion and voice distortion, and nobody will address you with your

25     real name but only with a pseudonym.  This is for your personal

Page 8783

 1     protection.  And I saw Mr. Gajic on his feet.  Mr. Gajic?

 2             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we did not hear the

 3     witness through our headphones.  So I would just kindly ask the witness

 4     to say a few words, just so that we can check the sound.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you hear me?

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think we will check that during the testimony.

 7     You should raise your voice a little bit more so that everybody can

 8     understand you.

 9             Mr. Thayer has now some questions for you during his

10     examination-in-chief.  Mr. Thayer.

11             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  In all the preliminaries

12     I neglected to advise the Court that the witness requires a caution

13     pursuant to the Rules.  And that's been explained to him, it was given to

14     him in the last trial, but I forgot to mention that as we were dealing

15     with the other matters.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.  Thank you very much.

17             Sir, we have in our Rules a provision that a witness should be

18     cautioned in specific circumstances, and I will read to you Rule 90(E) of

19     our Rules of Procedure and Evidence.  And I quote:

20             "A witness may object to making any statement which might tend to

21     incriminate the witness.  The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to

22     answer the question.  Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used

23     as evidence in a subsequent prosecution against the witness for any

24     offence other than false testimony."

25             Did you understand this provision?

Page 8784

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 3             Mr. Thayer.

 4             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5                           Examination by Mr. Thayer:

 6        Q.   Sir, I'm going to hand up a piece of paper to you, and it's 65

 7     ter 7150.  That should not be broadcast, with the help of the court

 8     officer.  Without reading anything out loud, I would just ask you if you

 9     can see your name on that piece of paper and if you can just confirm that

10     for the Trial Chamber.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Thank you, Witness.

13             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, does the Trial Chamber wish to see

14     the pseudonym sheet?

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We have it on the screen.  That is sufficient.

16             MR. THAYER:  Very well.  And Your Honour, the Prosecution would

17     tender 65 ter 7150.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P01445 under seal, Your Honours.

20             MR. THAYER:

21        Q.   Sir, we --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Mr. Thayer, please speak into the other

23     microphone.  Thank you.

24             MR. THAYER:

25        Q.   As the Honourable Presiding Judge has told you, there are various

Page 8785

 1     protective measures in place.  We will also, from time to time, be going

 2     into what's called closed session, which means that what you say will not

 3     be broadcast.  There will be other times where we will remain in open

 4     session, when there is no risk that your identity would be revealed.  But

 5     for I think the first 15 minutes or so, we'll need to remain in private

 6     session.  I think last time around we had to go back and redact some

 7     references, and I think it will be safer and easier if we stay in private

 8     session for the first portion of your testimony.  So if we could go into

 9     private session, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We turn into private session.

11                           [Private session]

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Page 8792

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16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session, thank

18     you.

19             MR. THAYER:

20        Q.   Sir, do you recall what Ljubo Ristanovic's position or function

21     was during the war?

22        A.   Well, I don't know, but I believed that he was a courier for the

23     battalion.  I can't remember the name of the battalion, that Srecko unit.

24     That's what I thought, but in fact it wasn't the case.

25        Q.   When you say "Srecko's unit," who is Srecko?  Can you give us his

Page 8793

 1     last name?

 2        A.   Srecko Acimovic.

 3        Q.   And can you tell the Trial Chamber why you thought that

 4     Mr. Ristanovic was a courier in Srecko Acimovic's battalion and why you

 5     say that, in fact, it wasn't the case?

 6        A.   Well, because it's not correct, because last time the Defence

 7     counsel said that he had checked this information and that this man was

 8     actually a student.  At least, that's what was said the last time I was

 9     here to testify.  Now, I thought that he was a courier because he did not

10     really participate in combat during the war.  He didn't go to the front

11     line, he was around the village.  That's why I thought so, because the

12     people who did not go to the front line, they were in the village during

13     the war.

14        Q.   And with respect to your belief that Mr. Ristanovic served as a

15     courier, was that solely your own conclusion or was that information that

16     you had heard from other people as well?

17        A.   Well, it was my conclusion, but I think I also heard other people

18     say that.  However, it turned out that that wasn't correct.

19        Q.   And when you would see Mr. Ristanovic in town during the war, can

20     you describe what he was wearing?

21        A.   He had a uniform, but sometimes he was also in civilian clothes,

22     and that's why I thought he was not in the army all the time, because

23     I saw him around the village.

24        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber approximately what time of day you

25     arrived at the school at Rocevic?

Page 8794

 1        A.   It was around noon or 1.00 p.m.  I think that's how it was.

 2     I can't say with certainty, but it was 12 or 1.00 in the afternoon.

 3     I think thereabouts.

 4        Q.   And did you see any soldiers at the school when you arrived?

 5        A.   There were many soldiers.  They were lying on the ground.  There

 6     were some machine-gunning emplacements there, so they were on the left

 7     side of the entrance to the sports hall.  They were lying there with a

 8     weapon.

 9        Q.   And in what direction were their weapons pointed?  You described

10     these machine-gun emplacements.

11        A.   Well, they were pointing towards the door of this -- the entrance

12     to the gym.

13        Q.   And can you describe for the Trial Chamber what these soldiers

14     were wearing?

15        A.   Some of them were military police, because they had white belts,

16     but there were also troops in camouflage uniforms, and I think they were

17     not from the village, they were not local people, because I knew most of

18     those people.  I think they came from outside of the village.

19        Q.   And when you arrived at the school in Rocevic, did you see anyone

20     that you did recognise?

21        A.   I saw, at the entrance to the school, Srecko Acimovic, and he was

22     in company of some other men but I didn't know those men.

23        Q.   And I'm not sure if you've mentioned this individual yet today,

24     but do you know an individual named Dragan Jovic?

25        A.   Yes, I do, and he was there too.

Page 8795

 1        Q.   And what was he doing when you saw him at the Rocevic school?

 2        A.   I cannot know with certainty as I sit here what he was doing but

 3     I know that he was present.  But whether he drove a vehicle or something

 4     else, I don't know.

 5        Q.   And what were Jovic -- or what was Jovic wearing, sir?

 6        A.   A camouflage uniform that -- the kind that was worn by military

 7     troops.

 8        Q.   And how about Mr. Acimovic?  What was he wearing?

 9        A.   I think he had a camouflage uniform as well.

10        Q.   And where are these men from, sir?

11        A.   They were from Rocevici.

12        Q.   With respect to Mr. Jovic, sir, do you have any idea how he

13     discharged his military service during the war?  What was his function or

14     role?

15        A.   I don't.  He did not go to the front line like the others did,

16     but what it was that he did, I don't know.  Maybe a driver, but I don't

17     think he had a rank, although maybe he was an officer.  I really don't

18     know.

19        Q.   You described some trucks at the school.  Can you tell the Trial

20     Chamber where they were located?

21        A.   Well, as you go towards the school or, rather, towards the gym,

22     they were maybe some 20 metres away from the entrance to the gym.

23        Q.   And did you see any Muslim prisoners being loaded onto any of the

24     trucks at the Rocevic school?

25        A.   They were already on the trucks when I got there, but they had

Page 8796

 1     been held in the gym previously.

 2        Q.   So do you recall seeing any Muslim prisoners anywhere on the

 3     property of the school while you were there?

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 7        Q.   Okay.

 8             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, we are going to need a redaction.  At

 9     page 18, lines 4 through 6, please.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be redacted.

11             MR. THAYER:

12        Q.   You described prisoners being in the back of one of the trucks.

13     Was their movement restricted at all or in any way?

14        A.   No.  They were in front, and I was in the back.

15        Q.   Okay.  Let me just ask it more directly:  Did you see any of the

16     prisoners' hands or feet bound in any way?

17        A.   I think their hands were bound, as far as I can recall.  Maybe

18     I'm mistaken, but I think their hands were tied.

19        Q.   And do you recall whether any of the prisoners were blindfolded?

20        A.   I can't recall that.

21             MR. THAYER:  May we go into private session for just a moment,

22     Mr. President?

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

24                           [Private session]

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Page 8798

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 5                           [Open session]

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.  Thank

 7     you.

 8             MR. THAYER:

 9        Q.   And, sir, where are Vukasin Draskovic and Milan Tomic from?

10        A.   From Rocevici.

11        Q.   Now, did you, while you were at the Rocevic school, see any

12     prisoners escape or being shot at?

13        A.   No.  But I heard that something like that happened the day

14     before, on Friday.

15        Q.   And what did you hear happened, sir?

16        A.   Well, that they tried to escape, that they walked out that door,

17     and that they were shot dead.

18        Q.   And did you also hear what happened to their bodies?

19        A.   I heard that a Jovica Stevanovic [phoen] drove away with their

20     bodies to the Drina River, that's what the story was, on his tractor,

21     actually, that he took the bodies there.

22        Q.   And do you have any information about any other persons who drove

23     trucks from the Rocevic school to Kozluk?

24        A.   Well, I thought there was a Mico or Milan Stanojevic - that's his

25     name and Mico was his nickname - and Milivoj Lazarevic.  However, when

Page 8799

 1     I testified here the last time, the Defence counsel said that Milivoje

 2     Lazarevic was not there, so maybe I had made a mistake, but I do know

 3     that they were drivers for that battalion.  However, it's possible that

 4     they weren't there on that day.

 5        Q.   And just to be clear, sir, do you have any actual recollection of

 6     seeing either of those two individuals, either at the Rocevic school or

 7     at the Kozluk execution site that day?

 8        A.   I can't recall.  If I could, I would have said it, you can be

 9     sure of that.  But if I were to say anything, it would just be guessing.

10     I'm not sure.  I don't know.

11        Q.   Okay.  And then we'll leave it there, sir.  Now, sir, I want to

12     turn your attention now for some more follow-up questions concerning the

13     execution site at Kozluk.

14             Before I do that, I would invite the Trial Chamber, if the Trial

15     Chamber has any questions with respect to the school at Rocevic.  If not,

16     I'll just continue on to the events at the Kozluk execution site.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We turn into private session and then Judge

19     Mindua has a question.

20                           [Private session]

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18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

21             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22        Q.   Sir, you told the Trial Chamber about the trucks backing up to a

23     hole.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber, had you ever been to this location

24     before at Kozluk?

25        A.   No.

Page 8801

 1        Q.   And when you arrived, was this hole already dug out?

 2        A.   Yes, yes.

 3        Q.   And had the executions already begun by the time you arrived or

 4     did they start after you arrived?

 5        A.   Yes, yes.  It was there from beforehand.  It wasn't a fresh hole.

 6     It was probably there from earlier on because they probably dug there for

 7     gravel, so that hole was there -- had been there some two to three months

 8     before that event.

 9        Q.   Okay.  And on that day when you arrived, had the killing already

10     begun by the time you got there or did the killing start after you had

11     arrived?

12        A.   There were already people who had been killed there before.

13        Q.   And where were their bodies, sir?

14        A.   They were in the hole, that hole that had been dug out, at the

15     bottom.

16        Q.   And I know this is very difficult, sir, but can you describe for

17     the Trial Chamber exactly how the executioners were arranged at this

18     site.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber in as much detail as you can what

19     the layout was.

20        A.   Some of them were on the right-hand side and the others were on

21     the left-hand side.  They were in lines.  The hole was between them.  And

22     as the truck backed up, there were soldiers on either side and then they

23     would just start shooting from both sides.

24        Q.   And can you tell the Trial Chamber approximately how many

25     shooters there were on either side of this hole?

Page 8802

 1        A.   There were about 50 people, in my estimate; 20 to 30 on the

 2     left-hand side and 20 to 30 on the right-hand side.

 3        Q.   And what were these soldiers, these shooters, wearing?

 4        A.   They had the multi-coloured uniforms, they were all wearing those

 5     uniforms.  There were some who had white cross belts; this was the

 6     military police.

 7             MR. THAYER:  May we go into private session for one question,

 8     please, Mr. President?

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Private.

10                           [Private session]

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 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

10             MR. THAYER:

11        Q.   Sir, while you were at the execution site at Kozluk, did you see

12     any prisoners trying to escape?

13        A.   No.  I didn't see anything.  But they weren't able to do that

14     either.  The hole was some five or six metres deep.  If a person fell in

15     there, they wouldn't be able to come out even if there had been no

16     firing.  And the soldiers were standing on the left and the right side.

17     They were not able to get out.  There was no way for them to get out.

18        Q.   And did you ever hear anything later about any prisoners who had

19     tried to escape?

20        A.   No.  I heard about Rocevici but not about this place.

21        Q.   A while ago you mentioned a Zoran Simenic being at the execution

22     site.  Can you describe what he was wearing?

23        A.   He had a multi-coloured uniform.  It was green with lighter

24     colour.  Boots.  I don't know what else he was wearing.  He had a rifle.

25        Q.   And to which unit did he belong?

Page 8810

 1        A.   I think he was in Srecko Acimovic's unit.  I think that he was in

 2     that unit.

 3        Q.   And where is Mr. Simenic from?

 4        A.   From Rocevic.

 5        Q.   I think you also referred to someone named Milan Stjepanovic.

 6     Where is he from, sir?

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 8   (redacted)

 9             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I think out of an abundance of

10     caution, we will need a redaction at page 32, line 4.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be redacted.

12             MR. THAYER:

13        Q.   And was Mr. Stjepanovic serving in the military at the time, sir?

14        A.   He wasn't in the army generally, and I don't think that he was in

15     the army at that time, because he was not fit to serve.

16        Q.   And did he have a gun at Kozluk that day?

17        A.   I think that he did, yes.

18        Q.   Do you recall seeing him shooting that gun that day?

19        A.   I cannot confirm that.  I didn't see that.  He was on the other

20     side, where Cigo and these others were.  You couldn't really see on the

21     other side what was going on in that brief period of time that I was

22     there.  I don't know what was happening before and after.

23        Q.   I may have asked you this before but did you see Zoran Simenic

24     firing his weapon?

25        A.   I said of him last time as well that I couldn't be sure and say

Page 8811

 1     something that I didn't see.  If I were to say anything, I wouldn't be

 2     speaking the truth.  I did see him with a gun, with a rifle, but I don't

 3     know if he was shooting or not.  I cannot confirm that because I'm not

 4     sure.

 5        Q.   And was he among the two lines of soldiers on either side of the

 6     hole?

 7        A.   Yes.  He was there.

 8        Q.   And how about a person named Mile Ostojic?  Was he at the site

 9     that day?

10        A.   I don't know who that is.

11        Q.   Okay.  Did you see Srecko Acimovic at Kozluk that day?

12        A.   I didn't see him, no.  I saw him in Rocevic but not in Kozluk.

13        Q.   How about Vujo Lazarevic?  Did you see him at Kozluk that day?

14        A.   No, I did not.

15        Q.   And how about Mitar Lazarevic?  Did you see him at Kozluk that

16     day?

17        A.   No, not while I was there.

18        Q.   Do you know an individual whose nickname is Beco?

19        A.   I do.

20        Q.   Do you know his real name?

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, we'll need another redaction at page

24     33, line 19.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed, yes.

Page 8812

 1             MR. THAYER:

 2        Q.   And did you see Mr. Ristanovic at Kozluk that day?

 3        A.   No, I didn't.

 4        Q.   And did you ever hear any information that he was there that day?

 5        A.   I did hear some talk about that, but I didn't see him myself.  I

 6     am sure I didn't see him when I was there.  As for the stories going

 7     around, there are many stories going around.  It could be true and it

 8     doesn't have to be true.  I really can't confirm that.

 9        Q.   Sir, that concludes my questions for you, and I thank you for

10     being here.

11             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I see that we are at the break.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. Thayer.

13             We must have a break now, and the Court Usher will assist you

14     during the break.  Please remain there until the Chamber has left the

15     courtroom, for your safety.  We adjourn and resume quarter past 4.00.

16                           --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 4.17 p.m.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before Mr. Tolimir gets the floor, I have a

19     couple of short questions for the witness.

20             Just to clarify the situation, when you have been at Kozluk, how

21     did the prisoners get into the deep hole you described?  Can you tell me?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they were shot at there, from

23     the left and the right, those people were shooting at them, and they just

24     were left there.  I don't know what happened afterwards.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Were they lined up before they were shot at?

Page 8813

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  As they were getting off

 2     the trucks, they would fall into this pit and then they were shot at from

 3     both sides.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Do I understand you correctly that they were

 5     falling into the pit and then they were shot from above, from the sides

 6     of this big hole?  Is that correct?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  That's correct.  Then they

 8     wouldn't -- then they didn't want to get off the truck anymore, and ...

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Were they moved into the pit or did they jump

10     into it or was there no other way, just to get into this hole?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they couldn't go either left

12     or right because of the soldiers, so the only place that was left was the

13     pit, as they were going straight ahead.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  You told us about a man who was

15     crying, one of those in uniform.  What did he cry?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He didn't say anything.  He just

17     was crying.  He was actually weeping.  He was crying very loudly.  I

18     don't know why it was.  He was -- whether he had received some order or

19     what, I don't know, but as I was getting up, he had already fallen down.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

21             Mr. Tolimir, your questions, please.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   I wish good afternoon to the witness and I wish him a pleasant

Page 8814

 1     stay and a swift return back to his family.  Now, I will have a few

 2     questions for you, and as we both speak in the same language, would you

 3     please look at the transcript before you and, once you see that the

 4     typing is over, that there is no more typing, then you can start with

 5     your answer.  Have you understood what I've said?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I think we should probably go into

14     private session if we are going to continue with questions that could

15     reveal the witness's identity, and I'd ask for a redaction of page 36,

16     lines 4 through 7.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, is there a need for going into a

18     private session?  It depends on your following questions.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, my questions were

20     not geared for private session.  I didn't realise that this would be in

21     private session, and I actually formulated my questions with reference to

22     the statement of this witness.  But if you decide that it's better to be

23     in private session, that's all right.  I don't want any harm to befall

24     this witness.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It depends on the line of questions you are going

Page 8815

 1     to put to the witness.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I've said that I really don't know

 3     when I would need to go into private session because I wasn't aware of

 4     the identity of the person when I was preparing these questions, and my

 5     apologies both to Mr. Thayer and to the Trial Chamber if I should ask and

 6     get a response that might identify the witness, but if you so decide, I

 7     am quite willing to work in closed session, completely.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  To be on the safe side, we go into private

 9     session.

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 8816











11 Page 8816 redacted. Private session.















Page 8817

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Witness, in lines 11, 12, and 13 you mentioned two individuals.

13     Would you please just take a look at their names, I don't want to mention

14     them, for the transcript.  In line 12, you say:

15             "Well, I've heard of these in the programme but I've never seen

16     them in the -- on the picture, but I think that's the other one, I'm not

17     sure."

18             So my question is:  Did you see these individuals on site or did

19     you just hear about them being there?

20        A.   Well, I heard about it, but I didn't see them myself.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Could we now please show the witness page 17 in

22     e-court.  Lines 1 and 11 and 12.  Would you please take a look at them,

23     Witness, and then I will have some questions for you.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And again, this should not be broadcast because

25     it's under seal.

Page 8818

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  That's on page 11 in

 2     English, lines 11 and 12 in Serbian, but in English that will be line 31.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Please take a look at what it says here.  You say to the

 5     investigator, you said, and then there is something that is intelligible,

 6     I didn't even know that.  So my question for you is whether what you had

 7     been asked by the investigator was something that you learned for the

 8     first time during that interview?

 9        A.   Is that at number 31?

10        Q.   No, no.  That's line 12.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm not sure that we have the right English page

14     on the screen now.  Now we have it.  It's page 16.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will repeat my question for the

16     benefit of the Chamber.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   So the question for you, Witness, is:  Did you mention this name

19     only after you heard it from the investigator?  Is that when you learned

20     of it?  Thank you.

21        A.   No.  I thought that these two individuals whose names appear

22     there were drivers.

23        Q.   But did you say that you didn't or didn't you say it?  Is that

24     what you said to the Prosecutor?

25        A.   Well, I really don't know that.  I just know the Mico, or Milan,

Page 8819

 1     that's one individual, and Mile Lazarevic, that's another person.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Well, since you mentioned the name, I will now read

 3     this line to you:

 4             "Mico or Milan Stanojevic and Milivoje Lazarevic drove, I don't

 5     know.  You said --" and then there is something that is unintelligible --

 6     I didn't even know about that."

 7             In other words, is that something that you learned from the

 8     investigator?  Because you didn't know anything about that.  That's what

 9     you said.

10        A.   Well, I don't know anything about this.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer?

12             MR. THAYER:  Well, so that we don't need to waste time on

13     unnecessary redirect, Mr. President, if General Tolimir could simply read

14     the question that was asked by the investigator that led to the answer,

15     I think that would be fairer both to the witness and more helpful to the

16     Trial Chamber, and in English that question begins on page 15 and that

17     question is:

18             "Except Dragan Jovic, who else did drive the trucks?"

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now we have the question on the screen, and on

20     the transcript.

21             Mr. Tolimir should continue.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Could we

23     now show the witness page 18 in e-court, of his statement.  Line 4 in

24     Serbian, and in English, that will be -- my apologies, Aleksandar is

25     checking that.  In other words, in Serbian, that's line [as interpreted]

Page 8820

 1     18, line 4, page 17 in English, line -- it says -- you say, actually,

 2     "I've told you everything that I know."  My question is:  After this

 3     statement in line 4 where you said that you told them everything you

 4     knew, was there anything said, or rather, is everything you said as you

 5     had already said everything that you knew, what comes after that, was

 6     that something that you had heard about or was it something that you

 7     weren't sure of?

 8        A.   Well, the things that I knew about with certainty I said that I

 9     knew 100 per cent and I was 100 per cent sure.  As for things that

10     I heard about, I probably said that, that it was probably like that.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Now, let's see if there is anything else in your

12     statement about that.

13             Can we now show page 22 to the witness, lines 1, 2 and 3.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And in English?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In English, that's page 20.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which line?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The first through third lines in

18     Serbian, and just a moment for the English.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Lines 30 and 31.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's lines 30 and 31 in English.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Witness, you said, and you repeated a number of times, that you

23     didn't know the names of the people who shot at the prisoners, and that

24     the investigators were probably asking you about the prisoners and the

25     names of those who were there before you were there, in other words, on

Page 8821

 1     Thursday and Friday.  Let me read lines 1 through 3 on this page for you.

 2     You say:

 3             "All these people were unknown to me.  The ones that I've seen

 4     there.  Those were the people, the names that you have, they may have

 5     been there earlier or a day earlier.  It was Saturday in the afternoon

 6     when I got there."

 7             So my question for you is this:  Did the investigators ask you

 8     about things based on what information and knowledge they had and then

 9     they -- and then wanted you to confirm, maybe thinking that you were not

10     telling them the truth?

11        A.   Well, they asked me about some people that they had knowledge of,

12     but I told them that I didn't know about them and I said that they may

13     have been there earlier or later on and that I didn't know anything more.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Well, we have understanding from the investigators

15     too.  They are trying to find as much information as you -- as they can.

16     But were there any answers that you gave because of the questions that

17     were put to you by the investigators that you're not quite certain about?

18        A.   Well, could you please repeat the question?  I'm not sure

19     I understood you.

20        Q.   Based on these efforts by the investigators to learn things from

21     you that you did not see or know, is it possible that you may have said

22     or given, volunteered, some answers that you aren't really certain about

23     and that perhaps what we heard from you today may be something that is a

24     bit different to what you actually saw and experienced?

25        A.   Well, what is stated in my -- in the statement is exactly as I

Page 8822

 1     knew it.  What I did see, I said about, and what I wasn't sure about,

 2     I also said that I wasn't sure about it.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Could we see -- could the witness be shown page 24 of

 4     the statement, lines 1, 6, and 18 in Serbian, and in English, that will

 5     be on page 22, and I thank Aleksandar for this.  Page 22 in English,

 6     lines 30 through 34.  Thank you.

 7              "No, I don't know.  In fact, I told you a moment ago how it was,

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  We turn into private

17     session, and we will redact that part.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 8823











11 Pages 8823-8828 redacted. Private session.















Page 8829

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Closed session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 8830

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are back in open session.  Thank

 6     you.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

 8             MR. THAYER:  The Prosecution would tender 7152, the OTP interview

 9     statement of the witness.  It's under seal.  It was used primarily by the

10     Defence.  General Tolimir quoted from some pages, but characterised other

11     pages.  I think in light of the way that the cross-examination

12     unfolded --

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sorry, we have to interrupt you, Mr. Thayer.

14     Mr. Tolimir doesn't receive interpretation.  Do you receive

15     interpretation now?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Thank

17     you, Aleksandar.  There is no need to repeat anything.  My adviser has

18     informed me about everything that was said so far.  Before I wasn't able

19     to hear anything because of the blinds, of the noise of the blinds being

20     pulled up as a means of protection.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer.

22             MR. THAYER:  Again, Mr. President, the Prosecution would tender

23     7152, given the way the cross-examination unfolded.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I was going to ask the Defence as well if they

25     tender this document.  Mr. Gajic?

Page 8831

 1             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that this

 2     document should be admitted, but as a Defence Exhibit, to have a D number

 3     instead of a P number.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer was the first to tender it, but

 5     I think it was used during cross-examination.  There will be no problem

 6     to receive it as a Defence Exhibit.  It will be received.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours, the document shall be given

 8     Exhibit D00138, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  I think in the future we

10     should have a combined P/D number.  That would resolve some problems.

11     Mr. Thayer.

12             MR. THAYER:  Or D/P, depending on which side you're sitting on.

13             My second issue I wish to address, Mr. President, is the Court's

14     concern about the delayed disclosure issue with respect to this witness.

15     I think it's probably our fault for not showing the Trial Chamber every

16     element of the sausage making that goes into our production of witnesses.

17     I can tell you in this case, in an effort to fill the gaps that we are

18     all fully aware of, that were yawning before us last week and then this

19     week, we tried to get about 15 witnesses that we thought might be

20     available.  This witness was really the only one, other than the ones

21     you're hearing this week and last week, who could come on such short

22     notice.  Fortunately, his circumstances allowed him to do that.  As soon

23     as we understood his availability, we immediately contacted the Defence,

24     asked them if they had a problem waiving the 30-day notice, they agreed,

25     and we would not have put him on the witness list had we not had that

Page 8832

 1     agreement, but I wanted to let the Trial Chamber know that that was the

 2     circumstances under which this witness was placed on the witness list and

 3     the 30-day disclosure went out the window.  It was really just trying to

 4     make sure we had witnesses, and fortunately, we did, and the Defence

 5     agreed to it.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, this is fine, and the Chamber

 7     appreciates your efforts to bring the witnesses here to The Hague and to

 8     the courtroom, but the Chamber would like to know about that as well,

 9     especially you indicated already in October, with a witness list of the

10     19th of October, that you will ask for delayed disclosure.  That was not

11     granted in the Popovic case, but the delayed disclosure needs a

12     permission by the Trial Chamber.  That was the reason why I mentioned

13     that.  That is not only the case if you really had -- or if you are going

14     to call a witness but it can't be done earlier.

15             MR. THAYER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  That concludes my

16     business before the Court today.  May I be excused for the remainder of

17     the proceedings?

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, you are.  Enjoy your work at your desk.

19             Good afternoon, Mr. Vanderpuye.  I take it that you are here for

20     the next witness.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Good afternoon, Mr. President; good afternoon,

22     Your Honour Judge Mindua.  I do have an application with respect to the

23     next witness, and that is for a Rule 90 caution to be given to him,

24     Mr. President.  He is still considered a suspect within the meaning of

25     our Rules and I think it would be appropriate in the circumstances.

Page 8833

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  The witness should be

 2     brought in, please.

 3             Mr. Gajic.

 4             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would just like to

 5     ask the Prosecutor for a brief explanation.  Perhaps that would be

 6     interesting for the Trial Chamber as well.  Would they be able to explain

 7     why they consider a witness still a suspect?  Because I think today no

 8     one can be a suspect or an issue -- an indictment issued against them

 9     before this Tribunal anymore.  So would the Prosecutor be able to explain

10     this, please?

11             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I can explain it, and I think it's pretty

12     straightforward, that the Rules define what a suspect is, and that's not

13     contingent upon the power or the ability to pursue an indictment against

14     a suspect.  It's an independent determination, and I think that

15     Mr. Gajic, once he's acquainted with that, will readily understand the

16     reasons I've given.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And this Rule is not only in relation to this

18     Tribunal but to every possible investigator, investigating office or

19     Prosecution.

20             Mr. Gajic.

21             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.  That is

22     absolutely clear to me.  I just believe that it would be a good thing to

23     have this in the transcript.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

25                           [The witness entered court]

Page 8834

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, my apologies that you had to wait until this

 2     discussion has finished.  Welcome, and good afternoon.  Would you please

 3     read aloud the affirmation on the card which is shown to you now.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 5     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 6                           WITNESS:  MILE JANJIC

 7                           [Witness answered through Interpreter]

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down and make

 9     yourself comfortable.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  On the request of the Prosecution, I would like

12     to give you some guidance.  I will read a paragraph of our Rules of

13     Procedure and Evidence, just to make sure that you are fully aware of

14     your situation.  In our Rules, we have the Rule 90(E), and I quote that

15     and will read it for you:

16             "A witness may object to making any statement which might tend to

17     incriminate the witness.  The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to

18     answer the question.  Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used

19     as evidence in a subsequent Prosecution against the witness for any

20     offence other than false testimony."

21             Did you understand that, sir?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Mr. Vanderpuye has

24     questions for you.  Mr. Vanderpuye.

25             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Once again good

Page 8835

 1     afternoon, everyone.

 2                           Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

 3        Q.   Good afternoon to you, Mr. Janjic.

 4        A.   Good afternoon.

 5        Q.   We met briefly today and you may not recall so I'll tell you

 6     again my name is Kweku Vanderpuye, on behalf of the Prosecution.  I'll

 7     put some questions to you regarding your evidence today.  Just before we

 8     get started, I just want to remind you to try to speak a little slower

 9     than you might normally, and I will try to do the same, so that the

10     interpreters have an opportunity to understand and interpret for everyone

11     what we discuss today.  And if there is anything I ask you that's not

12     clear, just let me know and I'll try to phrase it in a way that we can

13     best understand one another.

14             All right.  Do you recall having testified in the case of the

15     Prosecutor versus Vujadin Popovic on the 20th and 21st of November 2007?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And have you had an opportunity to review your testimony before

18     coming here to court today?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Having reviewed your testimony, does it accurately and fairly

21     reflect what you would say were you to be asked the same questions and

22     examined here today?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I would like to tender the

25     witness's prior testimony.  It's P1094.  I'd like to tender also the

Page 8836

 1     associated exhibits with that testimony:  P1095, and P1096.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Bear with me for a moment, please.  P094 [sic],

 3     P095 [sic], and P096 [sic] will be received.

 4             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5             I do have a longer than normal summary of the witness's testimony

 6     but I still think quite brief, that I'd like to read.

 7             In July 1995, Mile Janjic was a member of the Bratunac Brigade

 8     military police.  In the late afternoon of 11 July, Momir Nikolic, the

 9     brigade's chief of security, told Janjic and 10 to 15 members of the

10     brigade's military police to go to the Hotel Fontana.

11             There, Janjic met members of General Mladic's security detail,

12     who assigned the group of Bratunac MPs to secure the hotel's perimeter.

13     Following the negotiations which took place at the hotel that night,

14     Janjic and the other MPs were further directed to secure the rooms in the

15     hotel for senior officers.

16             In the early morning of 12 July 1995, Janjic's group of MPs left

17     the Fontana Hotel and reported back to the military police building.  A

18     short while later, they received word that Momir Nikolic had instructed

19     that they go to Zuti Most.  The commander of the brigade's military

20     police unit, Mirko Jankovic, relayed this direction.

21             Janjic's group of MPs went to Zuti Most, where they met Momir

22     Nikolic.  He told them to continue towards Potocari.  When the group

23     reached Potocari, Nikolic told Janjic that he was to report to and assist

24     Colonel Jankovic.  As Janjic did not know Colonel Jankovic, Nikolic

25     pointed him out.

Page 8837

 1             Colonel Jankovic told Janjic that buses and trucks would arrive

 2     to take the Muslim civilians to Kladanj.  He assigned Janjic to assist

 3     him in counting the number of Muslims transported out of Potocari.

 4             Janjic carried out this task until about dusk, when the operation

 5     concluded for the day.  Over that period he estimated that some 9.000 and

 6     several hundred Muslim men and women and children were transported out of

 7     Potocari.  A member of the civilian police named Milisav Ilic had also

 8     been tasked with keeping track of these numbers.

 9             Although Janjic testified that he did not see any Muslims

10     assaulted or abused in any way on either the 12th or the 13th of July, he

11     saw men separated from their families.  These men were taken across the

12     street.  A member of the Special Police Brigade whose unit was involved

13     in the separations told Janjic that this was being carried out on the

14     orders of General Mladic.

15             During the day, Janjic saw Momir Nikolic in Potocari talking with

16     members of the Special Police.  He also saw General Krstic and General

17     Mladic along with his entourage.

18             Later that afternoon, buses arrived to transport the separated

19     men.  Once filled, they were driven off toward Bratunac.  On the orders

20     of Colonel Jankovic, Janjic counted these separated men.  He testified

21     that he saw between 10 and 15 buses, each carrying approximately 70 men.

22     While he could not provide a precise number for the men separated and

23     transported on 13 July, he stated there were "certainly two or three

24     times more" than the previous day.

25             After the first day of transporting Muslims from Potocari, Janjic

Page 8838

 1     and the other members of his unit reported back to the military police

 2     building, as directed by Momir Nikolic.  There they were ordered back to

 3     the Hotel Fontana to provide security.

 4             The next morning, 13 July, they reported to Momir Nikolic and

 5     were assigned back to Potocari to carry out -- to carry on the previous

 6     day's work, as Colonel Jankovic had already told Janjic the previous day.

 7             Upon returning to Potocari, Janjic saw the same group of Special

 8     Police as he'd seen the day before.  The buses and trucks also returned,

 9     and Momir Nikolic came and went as he had done previously.  Colonel

10     Jankovic was also in Potocari and remained throughout the day.

11             Janjic resumed counting the number of people being moved out of

12     Potocari and Muslim men continued to be separated from their families and

13     driven off in buses towards Bratunac.  Bratunac Brigade MPs escorted some

14     of these buses which returned shortly after departing.  One of Janjic's

15     colleagues told him that the men were being taken to the school in

16     Bratunac where they were held under guard.

17             Near the end of the day, Colonel Jankovic ordered Janjic and

18     other MPs to take a vehicle in the direction of Srebrenica.  They were

19     directed -- they were to direct any Muslims that they found to Potocari

20     and to tell them that they would be taken to Kladanj.  At around dusk,

21     Janjic carried out this order.  When he returned to Potocari, Momir

22     Nikolic told him and the other MPs to report to the military police

23     building.  There, Nikolic directed the MPs to secure the Muslim men

24     detained in the schools and on the vehicles near the schools in town.

25     Janjic and the other MP spent the night guarding these men.

Page 8839

 1             On the morning of 14 July, soldiers wearing black overalls and

 2     black bandanas arrived.  Some boarded the buses as the buses began

 3     departing.  When all the buses had left, Janjic went home to rest.

 4             In front of the military police building, either late that

 5     afternoon or on the afternoon of 15 July, a colleague told Janjic that

 6     they had received an assignment to go to Rocevic.  Janjic set out among a

 7     group of six MPs.  He recalled that among them was Milovan Mitrovic,

 8     Slobodan Mijatovic, and Mladen Blagojevic.  Janjic recalls reading a sign

 9     post indicating Rocevic on the road before their vehicle came to a stop

10     at a school.  He saw 10 to 15 soldiers whom he recognised as being

11     members of the Bratunac Brigade from Zenica.  He saw them in a meadow

12     near the school.  He saw a white UN APC, and Commander Mirko Jankovic and

13     Zoran Zivanovic of the Bratunac military police were also there.

14             At some point, Janjic learned from the group of soldiers that

15     they were securing the school which they said was full of Muslims.  They

16     told Janjic that the prisoners were eventually to be transported in the

17     direction of Teocak.

18             Janjic and the MPs with whom he arrived remained in Rocevic for a

19     relatively short period.  As they prepared to leave, Janjic heard Mirko

20     Jankovic telling Zivanovic, "You need to organise yourselves and gather

21     up the other inhabitants to help you in this assignment."  In essence,

22     that he was to remain there.  Janjic was not sure if Zivanovic ultimately

23     returned with the group or with Mirko Jankovic in the APC.

24             About a week to 10 days later, Janjic and other members of the

25     unit confronted Mirko Jankovic about their deployment on 12 and 13 July.

Page 8840

 1     Janjic said that they felt they had been "infringed upon" because of the

 2     absence of a military police command cadre.  That is, about Mirko

 3     Jankovic working separately from the unit.  According to Janjic, Jankovic

 4     and Mile Petrovic explained that they had spent two days with Momir

 5     Nikolic during which they discharged several assignments.  Jankovic

 6     mentioned, for example, that as he was the only one who could operate a

 7     captured UNPROFOR APC, he was sent on various assignments with the

 8     vehicle.  He was tasked with gathering groups of Muslim refugees and with

 9     escorting Nikolic and Mile Petrovic to Konjevic Polje on several

10     occasions.  He also mentioned that he met with high-ranking officers and

11     referred to an individual known as "Pop."  Although Janjic testified he

12     did not know who "Pop" was and that he did not know who the Drina Corps

13     chief of security was, he testified that Ljubisa Beara, of the VRS Main

14     Staff, with whom he -- whom he saw after the fall of Srebrenica at the

15     brigade command, was Momir Nikolic's superior.

16             That concludes my summary, Mr. President, and I have a number of

17     questions to follow up on with the witness.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That was indeed a very exhaustive summary.  I'm a

19     little bit hesitant to call it a summary with this length.

20             Go ahead, please.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I very much appreciate your indulgence,

22     Mr. President.

23        Q.   Mr. Janjic, I have a few questions with respect to your testimony

24     that I'd like you to provide evidence on.

25             You were assigned the task of counting how many civilians had

Page 8841

 1     been transported out of Potocari, by Colonel Jankovic; is that right?

 2        A.   Can I answer later on?  And may I say something about the summary

 3     of yours, and perhaps you should have asked me whether I stand by it and

 4     whether that was what I said and things to that effect.

 5        Q.   All right.  Why don't we start like this:  Why don't you see if

 6     you can answer the question first and then we'll address the issues in

 7     the summary.  Is that all right?

 8        A.   All right.  The answer is yes to your question.

 9        Q.   All right.  And when you were assigned this task by Colonel

10     Jankovic, did you know who he was, that is, what position he held in the

11     VRS?

12        A.   Other than his rank, by the very fact that Mr. Nikolic told me to

13     go to Mr. Jankovic, I knew automatically that he would be a colonel.  I

14     didn't know him from before and I didn't know what his position in the

15     army was.  In other words, I met Mr. Jankovic, or Colonel Jankovic, then

16     and there.

17        Q.   Did Momir Nikolic tell you anything about what unit in the VRS he

18     belonged to; whether he belonged to a superior unit, a subordinate unit?

19        A.   No.  He didn't say anything other than to report to him, and he

20     pointed him out, he actually pointed to the person.

21        Q.   As you sit here today, can you tell us, do you know what position

22     Colonel Jankovic had back in July 1995?

23        A.   I don't know what his position was in July 1995.

24        Q.   When you were assigned this task by Colonel Jankovic, did he tell

25     you in particular what to do, that is, how to go about counting this

Page 8842

 1     massive number of people that you saw in Potocari when you were there?

 2        A.   He did not explain the manner in how I should do that but he just

 3     wanted me to report what the number of persons on buses and trucks was.

 4        Q.   All right.  And how did you go about doing that?  If you could

 5     tell us just briefly how you did it.

 6        A.   The first two to three hours after I received this assignment, a

 7     few colleagues, military policemen and I, literally counted every single

 8     person boarding a vehicle.  We stood, usually two of us, at the door and

 9     we would count the persons getting on.  However, if we did not succeed in

10     doing that, if a larger number of people came in at the same time, we

11     would sometimes even go on the bus and count them over, but normally we

12     would just count every single individual boarding the vehicle.

13        Q.   After these first two or three hours, how did you count the

14     number of individuals that were being bussed out of Potocari?

15        A.   After the first two to three hours, I proposed to Colonel

16     Jankovic -- and it was my own proposal, I asked for his approval, because

17     it was impossible to count all the people in this manner, and the crowds

18     were getting bigger and bigger, so I proposed that we just count, as a

19     sample, the number of people on a bus or a truck, and those figures would

20     usually be approximately similar.  In other words, a similar number of

21     people would fit in a bus or a truck.  So I asked him if we could just

22     count the number of buses and then later on to reconstruct and come to an

23     approximate figure of the total number of people.  And he approved of

24     that method.

25        Q.   How many people did you estimate -- I think I read in your

Page 8843

 1     transcript, and you can correct me if you're [sic] wrong but you

 2     estimated about 70 people for a bus; is that right?

 3        A.   Yes.  My answer is yes.

 4        Q.   And how many people did you estimate could fit in a truck?

 5        A.   Large trucks were used mainly for women and children.  These were

 6     huge trucks that could fit 150 to 170 persons.

 7        Q.   Now, you said that you approached Colonel Jankovic about this

 8     method that you were going to use, and he approved that; is that right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And in your testimony you mentioned someone by the name of

11     Milisav Ilic.  Do you remember that?  I think you mentioned that he was a

12     police officer.

13        A.   Milisav Ilic was a police officer.  I mentioned him because he

14     was on a similar assignment in those couple of days as I was.  In other

15     words, determining the exact -- establishing the exact number of persons

16     leaving that area.

17        Q.   Did you work with him in order to work out the number of

18     individuals that you were counting, that were being bussed out of

19     Potocari, or did you work independently of him, if you can recall?

20        A.   We worked independently.  I've already said that.  He did not go

21     on or into any of the buses.  I know that he asked me to tell him what

22     the approximate number of individuals that could fit in a bus or a truck

23     would be.  We did have a brief meeting with Colonel Jankovic on the next

24     day, because he told us that we should be more careful about figuring out

25     the number of persons who were leaving the area, and I concluded, based

Page 8844

 1     on that, that he had information both that I provided on the number of

 2     individuals as well as information provided by Milisav Ilic.

 3        Q.   In terms of the information that you provided Colonel Jankovic,

 4     did you provide that to him periodically or was that an end-of-day tally

 5     or something like that?

 6        A.   At the end of the day certainly there was a total tally, as it

 7     were, and -- but we also had contacts, several contacts during the day so

 8     that I would keep him up to date on the number of individuals.

 9        Q.   With respect to the contacts that you had with him periodically

10     during the day, was that just with you and Colonel Jankovic, or were

11     there other individuals also involved during these contacts?

12        A.   On several occasions I approached him briefly, but there was also

13     an occasion on the following day when Mr. Milisav Ilic was present too,

14     and that's when he actually told us to be more careful about the figures

15     we were providing.

16        Q.   Were you the only member of the military police from your brigade

17     that was participating in counting the individuals in Potocari?

18        A.   On the first day, in those first two to three hours, I had help

19     from a number of colleagues, a couple of colleagues.  Later on, when we

20     started counting the vehicles and then give a breakdown of the

21     individuals per vehicle, at the end, I could do the job myself, there was

22     no need for anyone else to be there, and then the final figure could be

23     deduced from that at the end.  It didn't have to be done immediately.

24        Q.   The colleagues that you're referring to, were they members of the

25     military police as well?

Page 8845

 1        A.   Yes.  They were colleagues of mine, military police officers.

 2        Q.   Do you remember their names, by any chance?

 3        A.   I can name a few names for sure:  Radenko Zaric, Milovan

 4     Mitrovic, Milan Gvozdenovic.  Those would be the names I can remember.

 5        Q.   Were you in uniform, if you recall, during this period of time?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And could you just describe your uniform so the Trial Chamber has

 8     a clear picture of what it looked like?

 9        A.   We had uniform uniforms, as it were.  They were green camouflage

10     uniforms.  The whole brigade wore the same kind of uniform.  We didn't --

11     the military police did not have a special uniform, but we did have white

12     belts, and that stood out, and we also had emblems on our left sleeve.

13     We also wore ribbons.  They were some 10 to 12 centimetres long.  We

14     would put them on our left sleeve, and you could make us out easily.  And

15     there was also the words of the brigade, you know, so it was really quite

16     visible, it stood out.

17        Q.   I'd like to ask you a couple of questions about the separated

18     men.  In your testimony, and once again you correct me if I'm wrong, but

19     in your testimony you indicated that you saw men being separated; is that

20     right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And where was this?  When and where was it?

23        A.   The men were separated before they reached the vehicle.  They

24     were separated on the way from when they left the line where there was

25     this red and white ribbon, then they would let through a group of people,

Page 8846

 1     men, women and children, and as they were going towards us, they would go

 2     through two lines of police, special military police, the men were

 3     separated, and the group that was going towards Srebrenica was on the

 4     right-hand side, and the buses were on the right-hand side, if you look

 5     from Bratunac to Srebrenica, so the men were separated there, and the

 6     women and children would board the buses which were on the right-hand

 7     side of the road from Srebrenica to Bratunac.

 8        Q.   After the men were separated, or during the separation process,

 9     can you tell us, were you able to see where they were taken or where they

10     went?

11        A.   I could see, because they went by me and towards the bus, and

12     I was always around the buses.  They would pass by the bus along the left

13     side of the bus, they would continue on, and then they would take a turn

14     to the left, towards a white house, on the left side of the road from

15     Srebrenica to Bratunac.  They would remain there, and once the yard was

16     full of people, because that's what was done on the first day, they would

17     be brought to the yard of that building, of that house, and they would be

18     kept there, but later on, there were too many people so they would just

19     remain on the side of the road, in the meadows, they would sit there and

20     wait for the transport to come.

21        Q.   Were you able to see if there were -- there was a military

22     presence near that white house where you saw these separated men being

23     taken?  Did you recognise anybody there?

24        A.   Well, I can say that this line through which they had to, or by

25     which they had to pass was numerous, there were many of them present

Page 8847

 1     there, and I'm talking about the line of soldiers that was there by which

 2     the people would have to go to that -- to get to the house, but how many

 3     of them there were, I don't know, I didn't count them.

 4        Q.   Did you yourself have any occasion to go by that house?

 5        A.   I didn't go by that house because there was no need for that.

 6     The house was opposite the area where I remained those two days, but

 7     I could see the house from there and I could see the yard as well.

 8        Q.   Did you see Colonel Jankovic go by that house while you were

 9     there or in the area?

10        A.   The house was on the left-hand side of the road going from -- to

11     Bratunac from Srebrenica.  Colonel Jankovic was not frequently on the

12     side where I was, and I was on the opposite side.  He was usually on the

13     opposite side.  And he spent most of his time with his back turned to the

14     yard of that house.  Some ten metres perhaps was the yard of that house,

15     some ten metres behind his back.  But on one occasion, and I was present

16     there, he actually addressed the people who were in the yard but I never

17     saw him going into the yard or into the house.

18        Q.   When he addressed the people in the yard, did you happen to hear

19     what he said?  Can you tell us?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Tell us what he said and let us know what people you're talking

22     about that he addressed.

23        A.   What he said happened after a mutiny of sorts, if I can call it

24     that.  Well, there was a commotion in that crowd of people, in the yard.

25     I heard them beginning to ask, "Why are we being separated from the women

Page 8848

 1     and children, and when are we getting anywhere?" and things to that

 2     effect.  They weren't violent or anything of that sort but they simply

 3     spoke up.  They rebelled, as it were.  And at that point in time,

 4     I crossed over and I heard Mr. Jankovic tell them that there was no need

 5     for panic, that they would remain there briefly, would be kept there till

 6     the end of the day, and then the buses would arrive and they would be

 7     taken and their families would arrive as well.

 8             You asked me what individuals these were.  These were mostly

 9     Muslim men who had already been separated from the women and children at

10     that point.

11        Q.   Did Colonel Jankovic tell them where they would be taken at that

12     point?  It's just not clear on the record, that's why I'm asking.

13        A.   As I mentioned a few moments ago, he said -- he told them that at

14     the end of the day, buses would come to get them, and that their wives

15     and children, their families, would arrive, and that really transpired.

16     At the end of the day, the buses did come.

17        Q.   I guess what I'm getting at is did he say to them that they were

18     going to be taken to Kladanj or they were going to be taken to some

19     particular location at that point?

20        A.   Well, the word "Kladanj" was repeatedly mentioned on that entire

21     day.  It was always said and it was mentioned to the women and the

22     children and it referred to the men as well.  Everyone, it was said, was

23     being taken to Kladanj.  It was mentioned on a daily basis.

24        Q.   I understand that but did Colonel Jankovic say that at the

25     particular time concerning the conversation that we are talking about

Page 8849

 1     now?

 2        A.   I cannot recall that.  It's been a long time.  So I'm not sure

 3     whether he mentioned it then or not.  I'm not sure.  But he said what

 4     I've said earlier, that their families would arrive and that the buses

 5     would come and -- at the end of the day, but I can't recall anything

 6     else.  It's been a long time.

 7        Q.   Do you recall approximately how many men, if you can estimate,

 8     were in that yard near the house at the time that Colonel Jankovic said

 9     this, or at the time that they spoke up, as you say?

10        A.   Well, if at the end of the day 10 to 15 buses left, and we said

11     that there was some 70 people per bus, and this was already late in the

12     afternoon, perhaps an hour or two before all the buses had gone, perhaps

13     there were somewhat fewer of them than the number of people who had

14     already gone, so let's say perhaps there were under 10 busloads at that

15     point in time in the yard.

16        Q.   All right.  I think we can probably work the math out.  Did you

17     see Colonel Jankovic relatively in the same area also on the 13th of

18     July?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And what was he doing on that day?

21        A.   The same things he was doing on the 12th, except for that

22     occasion when -- except that he didn't address those people there as he

23     did the day before.  He was standing around, walking up and down the

24     road.  He was jotting something down.  And I assumed that maybe he didn't

25     really trust me or the other police, the other military police, and I'm

Page 8850

 1     not sure, I can't really claim that, but I think he may have been

 2     counting the buses himself.

 3        Q.   When you say you assume that he didn't really -- he might not

 4     have trusted you or the other police, can you tell us why you think that

 5     or why you would make that assumption?

 6        A.   I am saying this because I noticed that - I'm almost sure but

 7     I didn't look at the notes - I had the impression looking at him,

 8     following his movements, that he was also counting the vehicles.  Why

 9     would he be counting them himself if we were already counting them?

10     I mean, the conclusion is that he probably didn't trust us, believe us.

11        Q.   Besides you and Mr. Ilic that you refer to, did you see Colonel

12     Jankovic engaging any other police officers, military police, or other

13     soldiers, or officers, while you were in Potocari, either on the 12th or

14     the 13th of July?

15        A.   I can say with a lot of certainty that I did not see him address

16     any police officers or the soldiers.  A large number of soldiers were

17     there.  They were curious.  They were there for various reasons.  But

18     I really have to say that they did kind of stop to exchange a few words

19     with him.  I don't know what they were talking about, though.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, we are running out of time.

21             MR. VANDERPUYE:  I see it is the break, and now is a good time to

22     break, with the Court's leave.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I have to refer to page 57, lines 4 and 5, the

24     numbers are not recorded properly.  It should read P1095 and P1096.  And

25     if I recall correctly and understood the witness correctly, he wanted to

Page 8851

 1     make some remarks or corrections to the summary you read out at the

 2     beginning of the testimony.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:  That's correct.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You should consider that during the break.  We

 5     adjourn and resume quarter past 6.00.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 5.47 p.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 6.16 p.m.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye, please carry on.

 9             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

10        Q.   I just want to pick up where Mr. President left off, and he

11     indicated just before we broke, reminded me that you had some

12     corrections, I think you wanted to make with respect to the summary that

13     I read out a little bit earlier.  Is that right, Mr. Janjic?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Okay.  Why don't you tell us what you'd like to correct.

16        A.   First of all, at the beginning, at the very beginning of the

17     summary, you mentioned two to three times "Janjic's group."  This is

18     incorrect, in my opinion.  I think that it would be more realistic to say

19     a group of military policemen including Mile Janjic, who was present, or

20     something like that.

21        Q.   Okay.  Thank you for that.  It was intended to mean the group

22     that you were among, but I appreciate that.  Is there anything else?

23        A.   And at the end, a bus -- actually buses were mentioned in the Vuk

24     Karadzic school in Bratunac.  Persons arrived in the morning, you

25     described them in black uniforms, and the buses departing.  And then you

Page 8852

 1     say, when all the buses had left from the school and around school,

 2     Janjic went home, but I think that it should be that once the first buses

 3     left, I was in a specific area, and it was known where I was, so when

 4     those vehicles left that were in the immediate vicinity of the place

 5     where I was, I then left.

 6        Q.   Thank you very much, Mr. Janjic.

 7             If you could, and I think it might be helpful, just to remind us

 8     where you were when those vehicles left.

 9        A.   The whole time on the 13th, in the evening, when I was there, in

10     the immediate vicinity of the Bratunac SUP, some 100 metres from the Vuk

11     Karadzic school, closer to the SUP, where I was perhaps from the school

12     to the SUP, it's 130 to 140 metres.  This is the area where I was moving

13     around.  It's some 100 metres away from the school.  There is a bakery

14     nearby.

15        Q.   Thank you for that clarification.  I'd like ask you a few other

16     follow-up questions, if I may.  First, I did mention this police officer

17     named Ilic before.  He was a civilian police officer; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Okay.  And did he wear a uniform similar to you?  In other words,

20     were civilian police uniforms similar to military police uniforms?

21        A.   The uniforms were not similar at all.  We wore green camouflage

22     uniforms.  The police, the civilian police, wore blue camouflage

23     uniforms.  And on both those days that Mr. Ilic was in Potocari, he was

24     in a blue police camouflage uniform.

25        Q.   Did the civilian police wear white belts, as you've indicated the

Page 8853

 1     military police did?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   And with respect to the white belts that the military police wore

 4     that you said, can you tell us, can you describe how those belts were

 5     worn?

 6        A.   The belts were worn so that they were visible.  They were worn

 7     over the belt that you wore in your pants.  They were worn over the waist

 8     belt.  They were white.  It wasn't a rule that all policemen had a pistol

 9     on their belt.  We were issued only with automatic weapons.  Only

10     policemen who privately owned a pistol wore them.  For example, I had a

11     pistol that I owned, that was my own, and I wore it on my white belt, and

12     there were a couple of colleagues, policemen, who wore pistols.  They

13     were not issued to us and it was not obligatory that we wear them.

14        Q.   Did you wear your belt across your shoulder, across your front?

15     Did it cover that part of your body as well?

16        A.   I know what you're asking.  That kind of belt that was crossed

17     across the chest, that is something that was worn in the -- I served in

18     the regular JNA and I saw military police officers who wore that like

19     that.  None of us actually had that kind of belt.  We wore a regular belt

20     at the waist.  Nobody wore these belts that were on the shoulders.

21        Q.   All right.  You certain of that?

22        A.   Absolutely sure, as far as the Bratunac Brigade military police

23     is concerned.

24        Q.   Okay.  You mentioned in your testimony that at a certain point,

25     and you were not certain of the date, you went with some other MPs to

Page 8854

 1     Rocevic.  Do you remember giving that testimony?

 2        A.   I do, yes.

 3        Q.   Now, it's a little unclear from your testimony, but can you tell

 4     us about how long a period you were there, you spent in Rocevic?

 5        A.   I think that I always said that it was some 15 to 20 minutes,

 6     definitely not more than half an hour.

 7        Q.   What was your assignment?

 8        A.   I didn't know what assignment it was at that time.  I don't even

 9     know it now.  I never knew it.  I don't know why we went there, because

10     we didn't do anything.

11        Q.   How long did it take for you to get there, from Bratunac is where

12     I think you set out from?

13        A.   We set out from Bratunac, we took a Pinzgauer and a combat

14     vehicle.  They were moving a bit more slowly.  We needed more than an

15     hour, maybe even an hour and a half, to reach that place.  You don't need

16     an hour if you're going by car, though.

17        Q.   Okay.  During the -- you said about 20 minutes that you were

18     there, what specifically were you doing?

19        A.   When we arrived, and I said this a number of times, the vehicle

20     stopped in front of a specific school at the back, in front of the gym,

21     in the yard.  A number of policemen didn't get out of the vehicle.

22     I did.  We got off there, we exchanged a few words with persons who were

23     there already, we got into the vehicle again and returned towards

24     Zvornik.

25        Q.   I think you indicated in your testimony that you were told at

Page 8855

 1     some point that there were prisoners in the school, or there were Muslims

 2     in the school.  Do you remember that?

 3        A.   I said earlier that we exchanged a few words with people who were

 4     already there.  We made a few comments, we chatted, and I found out from

 5     them, and I will agree with you, that they had said that there were

 6     prisoners, Muslim prisoners, in the school, that they were in the school

 7     itself.

 8        Q.   All right.  I'd like to show you P0094.  And I have to go to page

 9     191 in that exhibit.  When you first arrived at the school, or in the

10     area of the school, you mentioned that you saw some men from Zenica.

11     They were part of the Bratunac Brigade.  Do you recall that testimony?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Where did you see those men in relation to the school?

14        A.   Perhaps it would be easier, I already have the photo in front of

15     me, I could show you, if possible.  Or I could also say it, if I cannot

16     point it out.  As I'm looking at the photograph, there are two basketball

17     baskets, one is in front, the other one is to the left, and then between

18     those two hoops, looking towards the fence, there was a white personnel

19     carrier of UNPROFOR.  We are looking at an electricity pylon closer to

20     the school.  Before the right hoop is where the Pinz was parked, between

21     the pole and the hoop.  I came out, I was standing next to the APC, and

22     these people were behind the left hoop as we are looking back towards the

23     gym, on this area that is covered with asphalt.

24        Q.   All right.  I will have you mark this photograph.  That would be

25     very helpful.

Page 8856

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  With the assistance of the Court Usher.

 2             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 3        Q.   What I'd like you to do is to mark it with numbers and we'll

 4     describe what corresponds to the numbers, for the record.  So can you

 5     tell us, can you mark with number 1 where you saw the men from Zenica,

 6     the soldiers you saw from Zenica, if you can see that on this photograph.

 7        A.   [Marks]

 8        Q.   Can you mark with number 2 where you saw the APC.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   Can you mark with number 3 where you saw the Pinz, and that's the

11     Pinzgauer, the vehicle.

12        A.   When we came with the Pinzgauer.  [Marks]

13        Q.   And can you mark with number 4 where it was that you were, where

14     you got out of the vehicle.

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   And the other members -- were you the only member of your -- of

17     the military police members that arrived at the school, were you the only

18     one who got out of the vehicle, or were there others?

19        A.   As I said earlier, only a few of us came out.  Some people did

20     not leave the vehicle.  I said that before.

21        Q.   All right.  That's sufficient for this.

22             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Mr. President, I'd like to have this moved into

23     evidence, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This marked photograph will be received as an

25     exhibit.

Page 8857

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the marked portion of P0094 shall

 2     be given exhibit number P01446, Your Honours.

 3             MR. VANDERPUYE:

 4        Q.   I'd like to show you page 190, in this exhibit.  And I just want

 5     to clarify, for the record:  Is this the school that you went to, that

 6     you've indicated in your prior testimony?  I see that you've marked it

 7     and everything but I don't think I asked you if this was the school that

 8     you went to.

 9        A.   Neither one would be right.  I didn't attend, nor did I enter it.

10        Q.   No, I don't mean either, actually.  I mean to ask you, the

11     exhibit that you marked, does that show the school that you were -- where

12     you were in Rocevic?

13        A.   It does look like that school, and I can say with certainty that

14     that would be that school.  I don't think that there is another one that

15     would be similar, there is one that is exactly the same in Rocevic.

16        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to see the school from this

17     perspective now, what we can see on the screen?  Did you see this side of

18     the building while you were there?

19        A.   The photograph where I made the markings, I had to have seen it

20     when I was there.  It's logical that I had seen it when I was already

21     there.  So I must have seen it.

22        Q.   What I'm referring to is the photograph that's now in the screen

23     in front of you, which is different than the one that you marked.  I

24     don't know, maybe it hasn't changed in front of you, but did you have an

25     opportunity to see the school from this perspective?  You should see some

Page 8858

 1     grass and some trees on the screen in front of you.  Do you see that?

 2        A.   I do have a photo on the screen.  The picture is unclear.  It's

 3     dark.  The whole time I was talking about the picture that I marked.

 4     What I'm seeing here is quite dark.  I really don't recognise it.

 5     I can't tell what it is.

 6        Q.   All right.  We will try to adjust it for you so you can see it

 7     better.

 8        A.   I cannot say anything about this photo because if it is the same

 9     school, this is taken from a side that I'm not familiar with.  The view

10     from the yard is something that I could be sure about.

11        Q.   All right.  That's why I asked the question.  I appreciate your

12     answer.

13             Now, you mentioned in your testimony that you had the opportunity

14     to see Mirko Jankovic at the school; is that right?

15        A.   The school in Bratunac is mentioned, the Vuk Karadzic school, and

16     the school in Rocevic too.  Which school are you thinking?

17        Q.   You're right.  I'm thinking of the school in Rocevic.

18        A.   I mentioned that I saw him in front of the school in Rocevic.

19     You said earlier in the school, if I understood you correctly.

20        Q.   And in your testimony, you mentioned that he had a conversation

21     with -- bear with me for a moment.  He had a conversation with someone by

22     the name of Zoran Zivanovic; is that right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Do you know if Zoran Zivanovic returned with the group of MPs

25     that you arrived at Rocevic with?  Did he return with you back to

Page 8859

 1     Bratunac or did he go -- did he remain at Rocevic or did he go somewhere

 2     else?

 3        A.   He really objected firmly with Mirko Jankovic.  He protested.  He

 4     said that there was no way he would stay, that he wanted to go back.  I

 5     cannot state with certainty whether he returned with us or whether he sat

 6     with Mirko in the APC, the white APC.  I really couldn't say which one it

 7     was.

 8        Q.   Now, in your testimony you indicated that you went back to

 9     Bratunac after leaving Rocevic.  Do you know if other members of the

10     Bratunac military police remained in the Zvornik area after that?  And

11     I say "Zvornik area" because I can -- I'm considering that Rocevic is in

12     the Zvornik area, but generally that's what I mean.

13        A.   I know for sure that all the military policemen, including

14     myself, who came to Rocevic with the Pinz combat vehicle returned to

15     Bratunac.  I cannot say whether Zoran Zivanovic joined us, whether he

16     came back with us or with Mirko.  All the other policemen who went there

17     returned together, all of us.

18        Q.   I want to show you P00018.  These will be -- this is, I should

19     say, the Bratunac military police daily logbook.  Are you familiar with

20     such a book?

21        A.   I know that there was a duty logbook.  I don't know if it's the

22     same one that we are looking at now.

23        Q.   Okay.  I want to show you an entry in this book, and it's at page

24     19 of the B/C/S and it should be 16 in the English.  It reads at the top,

25     at least in the English, and you'll correct us if there is any error in

Page 8860

 1     the translation, it reads that it's a daily report, that the duty officer

 2     is Mile Petrovic, the deputy duty officer is Mladen Blagojevic, and then

 3     on duty at the bridge it reads Rajo Ilic and reception, M. Obackic.  What

 4     I want to draw your attention to is the second sentence in this report,

 5     which reads, one patrol remained in Pilica to secure and guard the

 6     Muslims.  All else went according to the plan of the military police

 7     command.  What I'd like to know is, the reference here to the patrol

 8     remaining in Pilica to secure and guard the Muslims, can you tell us what

 9     that is about?  Did you have any information about Bratunac military

10     police in Pilica?

11        A.   No, I don't have any information about that.  I've never been to

12     Pilica.  I don't even know exactly where it is now.

13        Q.   I understand that you may not have been to Pilica but did you

14     hear that other members of your unit, the Bratunac military police, were

15     in Pilica on or about, as we can see here, what's dated as 17 July 1995?

16     Either on that day or before that day?

17        A.   I've already answered:  No, I didn't hear anything about that.

18        Q.   I want to show you page 22 in the B/C/S and what should be page

19     19 in the English.  Here is another entry in this logbook, it indicates

20     daily report, dated 20th July 1995, duty officer is S. Mijatovic.  First,

21     can you tell us who that is, if you know the first name?

22        A.   There was only one Mijatovic, that is Slobodan Mijatovic.  He was

23     one of the commanders.  Deputy commander or a squad commander, something

24     like that.

25        Q.   And then we have deputy duty officer, Rajko Ilic.  And then it

Page 8861

 1     says, "On duty at the bridge, Rade Micic," and in this particular report

 2     it indicates in the second sentence that two Muslims who were turned back

 3     from Serbia were also brought in and put in custody.  What I'd like to

 4     know is, first, if you know anything about this.

 5        A.   I don't know anything about that, and I would also mention the

 6     date, because what's a little bit odd in all of this is the fact that the

 7     majority of the policemen at that point in time were engaged in Potocari.

 8     I think we were there on that day.  With the departure of the United

 9     Nations, our task was to secure, let's call it, the former base of the UN

10     in Potocari, to prevent civilians from coming in and removing all the

11     equipment and so on.  It was a large compound and there was a large

12     number of policemen who were on duty in Potocari for 24 hours a day.

13     That's where I was the first few days.  So maybe because of that.  I

14     don't know what was happening in the police building.  We were spending

15     two days up there, and after that we had one day off to go home.  This is

16     what our shifts were like.  And this went on for more than 15 days, until

17     all of the stuff was taken out from there.  I don't know where it was

18     taken.  All of the equipment.

19        Q.   Could it be that the UNPROFOR base was vacated, shall we say, on

20     the 21st of July 1995, not on the 20th?  Could you be mistaken about that

21     or are you certain?  Maybe before you answer it, I should show you the

22     following entry in this logbook.  If we could go to, I guess it would be

23     page 23 in the B/C/S, page 20 in the English.  In the English, this

24     particular entry says:

25             "Patrols were engaged in securing the road for the passage of

Page 8862

 1     General Mladic.  A patrol consisting of eight policemen was engaged in

 2     securing the UNPROFOR check-point at the battery factory."

 3             Does this refresh your recollection with respect to the entries

 4     in the notebook, or is this something totally different?

 5        A.   Well, it is plainly stated here, and that's the same thing that

 6     I mentioned earlier, that they were engaged in securing the UNPROFOR

 7     compound, and I didn't tell you the precise date.  I just said that

 8     I think it would have been around those dates, it could have been the

 9     19th or the 20th or the 21st.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  The 11th, 12th, or

11     the 13th.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But here we can see that it's the

13     21st, actually, that was the first day, and why wouldn't I believe that?

14             MR. VANDERPUYE:

15        Q.   So let me return to my original question, which is about the two

16     Muslims who were turned back from Serbia and put into custody.  If we

17     could go back to page 22 in the B/C/S and page 19 in the English so the

18     witness has it in front of him.

19             Have you heard anything about that?  Let's start there.

20        A.   No, I really haven't.

21        Q.   Where would these individuals have been put into custody, as is

22     indicated here in the report?

23        A.   All individuals who were held in custody, I know where they were

24     held, they were held at the police station building, and I know of two or

25     three Muslims who were held in custody at the Bratunac Brigade command,

Page 8863

 1     but some escaped and that actually led to the removal of the entire squad

 2     of police, of military police, the ones before my -- before I became a

 3     member -- or that unit.  And after their dismissal, a new, actually,

 4     military police unit was formed and I became a member of it, but as

 5     I said, I know that this happened before my time.  I wasn't a member of

 6     the police at the time.  There was a squad, and there was a room there

 7     with a grille on the windows, it was for conscripts that were brought in

 8     and held in custody, and if anyone was taken into custody, then they

 9     would have had to be brought there because that was the only room that

10     could be used for it.  The other rooms were the duty officer's room and

11     there was one or two rooms -- there were one or two rooms for where the

12     police officers slept during the night.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Vanderpuye, on page 83, lines 5 through 10,

14     there is some confusion about dates.  Perhaps you could, for the sake of

15     the record, clarify that with the witness.

16             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I can't quite work

17     out what that relates to, but --

18        Q.   Let me try and clarify something on the record.  There appears to

19     be something that may have not been recorded accurately.

20             When I referred to the date that your unit secured the UNPROFOR

21     compound, as was indicated in the logbook in an entry on 20 -- on the

22     21st of July, 1995, you had indicated that you were -- you hadn't given a

23     precise date but were referring just generally to that period of time.

24     Is that right?

25        A.   Yes.  My answer is yes.

Page 8864

 1        Q.   And we are now looking at the entry dated 20th July 1995,

 2     concerning these two Muslims that were turned back from Serbia and put in

 3     custody.  You indicated that they would be taken to a police station; is

 4     that right?

 5        A.   You asked me where these persons, if they were taken into

 6     custody, could be brought.  Now, whether that was actually the case,

 7     whether those two individuals were taken anywhere or not, I can't really

 8     say.  But I described what the rooms look like that were used for -- as

 9     detention rooms, and I mentioned an instance with -- that had to do with

10     the escape of some Muslims from some earlier period of time.  I explained

11     that.

12        Q.   Yes.  I appreciate that.  Now, with respect to these particular

13     individuals, I understand that you have no knowledge about their

14     circumstances, as is indicated in this report.  Is that fair?

15        A.   Absolutely.  I have no knowledge whatsoever, either whether they

16     were brought in or whatever happened next.

17        Q.   Okay.  During the period of time that you were on duty in July

18     1995, were there other occasions where Muslim prisoners, people that had

19     been captured, were put in the custody of the brigade?  Of the military

20     police unit in particular but of the brigade more generally?

21        A.   I don't know anything about that.

22        Q.   You were asked some questions in your previous testimony

23     concerning Ljubisa Beara and somebody by the name of Pop.  I want to ask

24     you, as you sit here today, do you know who this individual by the name

25     of Pop is, or was, I should say, in July 1995?

Page 8865

 1        A.   I don't know.  I really know who Mr. Jankovic was referring to

 2     [as interpreted].

 3        Q.   I'm sorry, the translation, or the record reads a little oddly.

 4     It says that you don't know.  "I really know who Mr. Jankovic was

 5     referring to."  Do you mean you don't really know who Mr. Jankovic was

 6     referring to?

 7        A.   I said I really don't know who Mr. Jankovic was referring to.

 8        Q.   Thanks for clarifying that.  Were you aware that the immediate

 9     superior unit to the brigade was the corps, in particular the Drina

10     Corps, relative to the Bratunac Brigade?

11        A.   I really couldn't go into that.  I don't know.  I know that I was

12     a member of the Bratunac Brigade, the military police platoon.  As for

13     the rest, I really don't know anything about it.  I know that the

14     commander was Vidoje Blagojevic, and that's all -- that's the extent of

15     my knowledge.

16        Q.   All right, Mr. Janjic.  I have no further questions for you at

17     this time.

18             MR. VANDERPUYE:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  We are approaching 7.00.  I

20     don't know if it is a wise approach to commence your cross-examination.

21     Perhaps it's better to start with that tomorrow, Mr. Tolimir.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I would

23     like to wish a good evening to this witness and just to say that we have

24     no questions for this witness.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No questions at all in cross-examination?

Page 8866

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, that's

 2     correct.  We have no questions for this witness because the

 3     examination-in-chief was rather lengthy and in detail, so we have no

 4     questions.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  As there is no

 6     cross-examination, there will be no re-examination.

 7             Sir, you will be pleased to hear that this concludes your

 8     examination, your testimony, in this courtroom in this trial.  Thank you

 9     very much for your attendance here and that you were able to help us and

10     assist us finding the truth.

11             You are now free to return to your normal activities, and the

12     court officer will assist you.  Thank you very much again.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too, and I would like to

14     thank the Prosecutor and all the -- all those present as well as

15     Mr. Tolimir.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

17                           [The witness withdrew]

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We have to adjourn for the day and resume

19     tomorrow in the afternoon, 2.15 in this courtroom.  We adjourn.

20                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.,

21                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 14th day of

22                           December 2010, at 2.15 p.m.