Page 9031
1 Thursday, 16 December 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.16 a.m.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning to everybody. Due to technical
7 problems here in the courtroom, we have a delayed start today.
8 Good morning, sir. Welcome back to the courtroom. I have to
9 remind you that the solemn declaration you made yesterday at the
10 beginning of your testimony still applies.
11 And Mr. Tolimir is continuing his cross-examination.
12 Mr. Tolimir.
13 WITNESS: PIETER BOERING [Resumed]
14 {Witness answered through Interpreter]
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir: [Continued]
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
17 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Yesterday we stopped when we were explaining the situation that
19 you were explaining in the Bandera Triangle. I would like to ask you if,
20 on the basis of everything that we said yesterday about the Bandera
21 Triangle, if you were ever there. Were you ever in the Bandera Triangle?
22 A. Yes. I have certainly been there twice; once to try to meet up
23 with Mr. Zulfo, and the second time to try to relieve some colleagues
24 that had been stopped during a patrol. They had been stopped by Muslims.
25 Q. Thank you. Did you manage to reach some kind of agreement with
Page 9032
1 the Muslims about UNPROFOR-Muslim relations in the Bandera Triangle?
2 Thank you.
3 A. I was not personally able to bring about any agreements.
4 Mr. Karremans and perhaps higher-ranking officers were working on that.
5 In any case, after having been detained for two or three days, we were
6 able to return to our base. True freedom of movement, however, we did
7 not have.
8 Q. Thank you. Can we now look at D66 in the e-court, please. Could
9 the electronic court please show D66.
10 This is a report sent by Naser Oric, the commander of the
11 Srebrenica Brigade, to the command of the 2nd Corps, where he says, in
12 the second line - we can see the document now - he says, in the second
13 line, I quote -- actually, we can start from the first line:
14 "Due to the situation in the Podgaj village on 9th of January
15 1995, of which you were informed in a timely manner, the command of the
16 8th Operations Group has restricted the movement of the UNPROFOR forces
17 in the broader region of Suceska and Podgaj. At about 1100 hours today
18 the commander of the Dutch Battalion in Srebrenica ordered his patrols to
19 enter the movement restriction area. In coordination with the commander
20 of the 8th Operations Group respecting the agreement reached with the
21 UNPROFOR liaison officer after the warning was issued not to move in the
22 aforementioned area, the commander of the 281st Eastern Bosnia Light
23 Brigade blocked all UNPROFOR patrols and is still keeping them blocked."
24 Are you able to tell us whether this refers to you as the liaison
25 officer and were you the one who reached this agreement with the
Page 9033
1 commander of the operations group? Thank you.
2 A. I remember that this situation figured at the start of my period
3 in the enclave. At that moment, we had the arrangement of a civil and a
4 military liaison officer, because there were two of us, and there was a
5 third person in addition to Mr. Rave and myself. That person eventually
6 left. I think he was more involved in this process. I was present at
7 one or two of these discussions. If I remember correctly, UNMOs were
8 present as well. They were also trying to bring about freedom of
9 movement in that area, and were similarly unsuccessful. And I believe
10 that in that period somebody from UNPROFOR also tried to visit DutchBat.
11 Whether it truly happened, I think it did, but I can't remember exactly.
12 Q. My question is: Did you take part in the talks in order to
13 resolve the problems in the Bandera Triangle?
14 A. My answer is yes, I was present at some of --
15 Q. Thank you. And was an agreement reached between the Muslim army
16 and the UNPROFOR that the UNPROFOR does not enter the Bandera Triangle?
17 A. As far as I remember, in the subsequent period, UNPROFOR provided
18 indications that we should try to increase freedom of movement, and as a
19 consequence, DutchBat carried out more patrols in that area. One of the
20 results as a consequence of this was the hostage-taking of that group,
21 and I believe I didn't see the document, but I remember that later
22 indications arrived from UNPROFOR -- UNPROFOR provided indications that
23 these operations should be scaled back and that there shouldn't be
24 extensive patrols in the Bandera Triangle to bring about freedom of
25 movement. So status quo, restricted freedom of movement, was accepted.
Page 9034
1 Q. I would like to tender this document, D66 -- I'm sorry, thank
2 you, Aleksandar. It's already been admitted, my assistant has told me.
3 Are you able to tell us if you had received a written or an oral
4 order from your superior command no longer to patrol in the Bandera
5 Triangle?
6 A. I didn't see any such written document, nor was I in that line of
7 command.
8 Q. Thank you. Can we now look at 1D362, 1D362. Thank you. We are
9 now looking at 1D362. We are reading the first paragraph just below the
10 Order. We don't have a translation, so this is a document by the Army of
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina, its 2nd Corps command from Tuzla, which is sent to
12 the Srebrenica Operations Group, and it's addressed to the commander,
13 Naser Oric. These are measures in relation to UNPROFOR, that is the
14 heading of the document. I'm just reading the first paragraph of the
15 order. Thank you. I quote:
16 "The command of the Operations Group 8 will provide to the 2nd
17 Corps command a detailed report with the date, time, place and type of
18 impermissible activities by the Dutch Battalion of the UN in the area of
19 responsibility of the 281st Light Mountain Brigade/Operations Group 8,
20 Srebrenica." I end my quote.
21 So my question is: Are you able to tell us, what are these
22 activities that are not permitted that are referred to in this order?
23 A. No. Nothing comes to mind now. It could have been the patrols.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you said that was addressed to Naser
25 Oric. Can you tell me where I can find the name of Naser Oric in this
Page 9035
1 document?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. If you look in the
3 right-hand corner, it says "Urgent," and then underneath that, it says
4 "OG 8, for the commander." He was the commander of Operations Group 8.
5 Thank you.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is the conclusion you are drawing from this
7 document, but the name is not written here; is that correct? Just for
8 the sake of the record.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. For the
10 transcript, I am saying that it is addressed to the commander of
11 Operations Group 8. Thank you.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer?
13 MR. THAYER: And Mr. President, there is no dispute from the
14 Prosecution that Naser Oric was indeed the commander.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just wanted to have it clear on the record.
16 Please continue.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
19 Q. My question, on the basis of your previous answer, is: Did
20 UNPROFOR take any kind of impermissible activity in the Bandera Triangle?
21 Thank you.
22 A. I don't remember that.
23 Q. Thank you. My next question is: As members of UNPROFOR, were
24 you unwanted or people non grata in the Bandera Triangle?
25 A. There was an area where we were not welcome.
Page 9036
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we look at -- can
2 we have this document 1D362 admitted, please? Aleksandar, thank you.
3 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Can the witness now look at 13 -- actually, 1D366. Can we show
5 that document to the witness. Thank you. That is a document of the army
6 of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, by the command of the 2nd Corps,
7 which was sent to deputy -- to assistant commanders for security of
8 Operations Group 8 and it relates to movements by UNPROFOR members. I'm
9 going to read the second paragraph. I quote:
10 "In order to prevent these actions and occurrences --" meaning
11 the movements of UNPROFOR -- "and for the purpose of protecting the units
12 of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the population, special purpose
13 production, and other elements important for the defence of the country,
14 it is necessary that all visits by members of UNPROFOR and other
15 international foreign institutions and organisations to units and members
16 of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina be announced via the liaison officers
17 at the corps command and that they be announced in advance."
18 My question, on the basis of what I read, is this: Are you able
19 to tell us, what is this special purpose production that they are
20 protecting and what is its relevance to the Bandera Triangle? I didn't
21 come across any references to that. Thank you.
22 A. I don't have any additional information about that.
23 Q. Thank you. Since you are being requested here to announce in
24 advance each of your visits, and it says here because of special purpose
25 production and other elements important for the defence of the country,
Page 9037
1 they are protecting those, and that's why they say it is necessary that
2 all visits by members of UNPROFOR and other international organisations,
3 and so on and so forth, be announced in advance. Please, did UNPROFOR
4 have any information that something was being produced or manufactured in
5 the Bandera Triangle, such as weaponry or equipment? Thank you.
6 A. No. I don't have any information about that.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer?
8 MR. THAYER: Just an inquiry, Mr. President, because we don't
9 have a translation of this document. I'm just wondering if somebody can
10 tell us whether this document refers to the Bandera Triangle in
11 particular or at all or whether it's just a general document pertaining
12 to the entire enclave. I note that the date appears to be 4 January. We
13 have been dealing with the Bandera Triangle, but I just can't tell
14 whether this document actually deals with the Bandera Triangle itself
15 only, partially, not at all, or just the enclave. I don't know if the
16 Defence has a position on that or whether they can tell us, based on
17 their review of the document, since we don't have a translation.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Chamber is in the same position. We don't
19 know all the background and the content of this document. The witness is
20 not able to give us additional information. What is it about,
21 Mr. Tolimir?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. In the
23 beginning, I did say who wrote the document and that the document is
24 titled, "Movement of members of the UNPROFOR, instruction, addressed to."
25 This document refers to UNPROFOR, who is being banned from going to areas
Page 9038
1 where special purpose production and other elements important for the
2 defence of the country are being protected. And I'm asking the witness
3 if he knows whether something was being manufactured there.
4 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
5 Q. This question is, sir, are you able to explain to the Trial
6 Chamber what this special purpose production is?
7 A. Is this a question to me or is it an explanation to the Judge?
8 I thought it was the latter.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, it is a question for you, Mr. Boering. Are
10 you able to explain to the Trial Chamber what this special purpose
11 production is? That was the question for you.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I have no idea.
13 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Thank you. Witness, is this some kind of a special purpose
15 production? Because it's called "special purpose production." Thank
16 you.
17 A. I have no idea.
18 Q. Thank you. What is the name of military production, any kind of
19 production; materiel, equipment, military equipment, used for this kind
20 of production in NATO countries, including Holland?
21 A. Do you mean in a factory?
22 Q. Anywhere. It can be out in an open area as well. Anywhere.
23 Thank you.
24 A. As far as I know, the patrols that took place throughout the
25 Srebrenica enclave did not discover any weapons-producing facilities.
Page 9039
1 And, of course, one of their tasks was to seek out any facilities where
2 such items could be produced inside a building or outside. One problem
3 that we encountered in ascertaining where activities were being performed
4 in buildings was that in house searches we had to be assisted by the
5 police, so our mandate did not provide us with the full latitude to
6 conduct house searches everywhere.
7 Q. In view of this answer of yours, were you able to discover a
8 weapons-producing facility in the Bandera Triangle if you were restricted
9 from moving in that area? Thank you.
10 A. It was not possible.
11 Q. Thank you. Can we now look at the third paragraph.
12 You see it in front of you. I'm going to read it. It says:
13 "The corps command and the UNPROFOR liaison officer who is
14 stationed at that location needs to coordinate positions about the
15 procedure of announcing the movements and control by teams, crews,
16 patrols, and others from the UNPROFOR force, with the commands of the
17 brigades, battalions, and defence lines of the Army of Bosnia and
18 Herzegovina, and it's required that the movement of UNPROFOR is
19 channelled and reduced to as few patrols as possible in places where they
20 could possibly observe and gather intelligence data."
21 So were you obliged, pursuant to this order, to announce in
22 advance the movements of your patrols in these areas that were under the
23 control of the Muslim army? Thank you.
24 A. I don't remember that with respect to the actual DutchBat
25 patrols. I do remember that the UNMOs, when they actually wanted to
Page 9040
1 enter the Bandera Triangle or that area, that they would submit a plan in
2 advance and request permission.
3 Q. Thank you. Whose permission did they ask for, and was the
4 Bandera Triangle a militarised or a demilitarised zone? Thank you.
5 A. That permission was requested, if I remember correctly, at the
6 weekly meetings we had with Naser Oric or Ramiz, his deputy, or Ekrem,
7 the third man. The schedule of the week ahead was reviewed there, and
8 whether the Bandera Triangle was militarised or demilitarised, as far as
9 we could tell from outside, it was unclear to me.
10 Q. Thank you. Since the transcript is not written in the best
11 possible way, would you kindly repeat whether the Bandera Triangle was a
12 militarised or a demilitarised zone. Thank you.
13 A. We had no view of what actually took place in that area, but we
14 didn't see any operations being performed from outside of that area. We
15 couldn't see any such operations being performed with great military
16 prowess, so it could have been a demilitarised area.
17 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Since you were obliged to announce your
18 movement as members of UNPROFOR to military forces within that zone, and
19 in view of the fact that they controlled your movement, were you then
20 able to control them or to monitor them if you announced your movement a
21 week ahead? Thank you.
22 A. That was not the case. And as I've indicated earlier today, the
23 battalion leadership had decided to increase the patrols later in
24 January.
25 Q. Thank you. As liaison officer, if you had to submit a report to
Page 9041
1 the UNPROFOR command in Tuzla or Sarajevo and report to them whether that
2 zone was militarised or demilitarised based on what you could observe,
3 what would you have reported?
4 A. I did not submit any reports to Tuzla or Sarajevo as liaison
5 officer. Karremans did.
6 Q. Thank you. Were you Karremans' adviser; and what would you have
7 advised him to report about whether Srebrenica was a militarised --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Whether Bandera
9 Triangle ...
10 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
11 Q. -- was a militarised or a demilitarised zone? Thank you.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would have advised him to try to
13 get some insight in the Bandera Triangle and to carry out patrols there
14 and to include that in the negotiations toward Tuzla and Sarajevo.
15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Thank you. Thank you. As this document has not been translated,
17 I will read out the last three lines in the fourth paragraph, and they
18 talk about controls on separation lines. And it says:
19 "Military police and the Ministry of the Interior will carry out
20 visual controls and ask for IDs of all persons from the UN complement."
21 Now, tell us, please, what was your reaction to this decision
22 taken by the 2nd Corps?
23 A. Well, I have no knowledge of this. I don't know whether that
24 took place.
25 Q. Thank you. Did you ever leave that zone? Did you exit or enter
Page 9042
1 it? And were you then, on those occasions, asked for your IDs by the MUP
2 or Ministry of the Interior police, or the military police? So when you
3 went out of or came into the demilitarised zone.
4 A. I can't remember ever presenting an ID.
5 Q. Thank you. I'm running out of time, but could you please just
6 answer the following question: If the command of the operations group
7 Srebrenica - and Srebrenica was a demilitarised zone - actually worked or
8 dictated the relationship within -- with the UNPROFOR within the
9 demilitarised zone, could then that zone be considered demilitarised or
10 were you actually under the control of the organs within -- the military
11 organs within the so-called demilitarised zone?
12 A. All I remember is the restricted freedom of movement in the
13 Bandera Triangle, and controls preventing them from moving ahead at a
14 certain point. I don't have that impression and nothing comes to mind.
15 Q. Thank you. We cannot dwell on this anymore.
16 Can you just tell us, if you know, whether there was an agreement
17 in place between the UNPROFOR and the BH Army on non-entry of the
18 UNPROFOR into the Bandera Triangle?
19 A. As I've said earlier today, after we stepped up the patrols later
20 on in January and were blocked and taken hostage, I believe that
21 subsequent to that, UNPROFOR issued instructions to accept the Bandera
22 Triangle and its restricted freedom of movement for us. I did not see
23 any documents to that effect.
24 Q. Thank you. Did you know the observer, who was called Kingori,
25 and was he in Srebrenica?
Page 9043
1 A. Yes, I remember him, and that was in Srebrenica. He was an UNMO.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer?
3 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, just before we move to the next
4 topic, it may have gotten buried in some of the questions, but I believe
5 General Tolimir had tendered 1D362, which was the document before the one
6 he just used, and I don't know if he intended to tender 366, which is the
7 one that he just finished up with. I do recall him tendering 362, but
8 then he rolled right into another question so it may have gotten buried
9 somewhere. So just before we move any further, just so there is no
10 confusion.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much for this reminder. I was
12 waiting for tendering the current document by Mr. Tolimir. Are you
13 tendering it? The Chamber has some concern --
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Mr. President. We
15 would like to tender it. Thank you.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Chamber is not in the position to admit these
17 two documents into evidence. We don't know anything about the content.
18 It is not only a translation issue. This witness couldn't say anything
19 about the content. He doesn't know anything. He several times repeated,
20 "I have no idea about it." And the questions you put in relation to
21 these two documents to the witness were not answered in a way that we can
22 receive these two documents into evidence. You may tender them with
23 another witness, use them with another witness, but in that way we only
24 can mark them for identification but not admit into evidence.
25 They will be marked for identification.
Page 9044
1 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, document 1D00362 shall be
2 marked for identification as D00141, while document 1D00366 shall be
3 marked for identification as D00142. Thank you.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. This
6 document, in its third paragraph, and I've read this out to the witness,
7 it says that the corps command, would coordinate with the liaison officer
8 of UNPROFOR, and this man was a member of the UNPROFOR, and he should be
9 able to testify about this, and I have just heard him say that he had
10 received an order from the command in Sarajevo not to go to Bandera
11 Triangle, and I don't see why this document would not be or cannot be
12 admitted into the evidence, because this witness is able to testify about
13 it. He was a liaison officer and he was the person through whom actually
14 all these arrangements about movements within the zone were done.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm very sorry, I have to interrupt you. The
16 Chamber has ruled on that. Please carry on. No discussion.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I understand.
18 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Witness, sir -- could we please see P996, the so-called Kingori
20 diaries. And could we pull up page 3 in e-court. Thank you. And
21 I thank Aleksandar. You can see it on the screen before you now. And
22 that's the fourth line, where Mr. Kingori says, "Control of movement
23 towards Zepa (Carter agreement)." Now, please tell us what you know
24 about the Carter agreement.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer?
Page 9045
1 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, obviously we have no objection to the
2 use of this document or any continued questioning along this line. I'd
3 just ask perhaps if the witness could be given either an opportunity to
4 at least have a moment to look at the document or have it placed in some
5 kind of context for him, either by date or topic, just so we have -- or
6 the witness has some idea what -- what this particular page of this
7 journal reflects. That's all I'm asking for.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. That would be helpful indeed.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: To assist the witness in order to give him -- in
11 order to give him the opportunity to answer questions.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. We've had Mr. Kingori
13 as a witness here, and when asked why entry into Bandera Triangle was
14 banned, and who had made the decision and on whose decision it was done,
15 he answered that this was a way in which the Muslims protected people
16 from leaving to -- from Srebrenica to Zepa, and then he mentioned the
17 Carter agreement. And my question for you is: What do you know about
18 the Carter agreement?
19 A. Well, at this time, nothing comes to mind about the Carter
20 agreement.
21 Q. Thank you. Can -- does any other agreement come to mind? Can
22 you recall any other agreement which regulated the UNPROFOR issue and its
23 movement within the Bandera Triangle and movement from Srebrenica towards
24 Zepa? Thank you.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer?
Page 9046
1 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, this is not a huge issue but
2 apparently it's an important issue to General Tolimir. I think he needs
3 to be very careful when he's characterising another witness's testimony
4 when he's examining a witness currently, and I think if we look at the
5 record, it's clear that Colonel Kingori never connected the Bandera
6 Triangle to the activities that are listed here on this document.
7 I think the Trial Chamber will remember Colonel Kingori talking about OP
8 Kilo and an OP in the south of the enclave, but he was careful to
9 distinguish the Bandera Triangle.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer --
11 MR. THAYER: Sorry, and I won't go any further, but there is
12 mischaracterisation of the prior testimony that I think we need to be
13 careful about. That's all I'm saying.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer, you may deal with that in
15 re-examination. The question was quite clear: Can you recall any other
16 agreement which regulated the UNPROFOR issue and its movement within the
17 Bandera Triangle and movement from Srebrenica towards Zepa? This is a
18 clear question. The witness should answer that. If you are able to
19 answer that, please give us the answer.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know nothing about agreements
21 regarding the Bandera Triangle. As for discussions about movement
22 between Srebrenica and Zepa, I remember that there were discussions about
23 that, especially concerning smuggling operations, and that DutchBat tried
24 to get more insight into that and indicated that they would be moving
25 observation posts to improve their insight into that, and that gave rise
Page 9047
1 to tensions with the Muslim leadership, who did not agree with the
2 location of the new observation posts. That's what I remember.
3 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Thank you. As Mr. Thayer, the Prosecutor, says that Kingori
5 never mentioned control of movement, would you please read out the line,
6 line 4, and read what it says in brackets for transcript purposes. Would
7 you please read it out.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The left side of the screen. I think Mr. Tolimir
9 is referring to the fourth bullet point. Do you see that?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean, "Control of movement to
11 Zepa, (Carter agreement)"?
12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Thank you. Mr. Kingori spoke about that during his evidence, and
14 I just want to point out that this document has already been admitted
15 into evidence, and I thank Aleksandar for reminding me of that. Thank
16 you as well.
17 As for this illicit activities of the Muslims and the protection
18 of the Muslims and the ban on movements of patrols, could we -- UNPROFOR
19 patrols, could we now please show the witness document 65 ter 0696.
20 That's a document produced by the BH Army, a report sent from Srebrenica
21 on the 28th of April 1995, to the General Staff of the BH Army,
22 personally to Brigadier General Enver Hadzihasanovic. And I will repeat,
23 while we wait for the document to show up, 65 ter 06696. 65 ter 06696,
24 thank you.
25 Thank you. Now we see the document in both versions, and I will
Page 9048
1 read out the first paragraph, and I quote:
2 "On the 27th of April, 1995, the command of the Dutch Battalion
3 in Srebrenica began carrying out engineering work in order to set up an
4 observation post in the Lozina village sector on their own -- of their
5 own will. They made the decision to do so on their own. The setting up
6 of an observation post in this area creates the preconditions for
7 controlling the Srebrenica-Zepa corridor [road] which directly impedes
8 the safety and secrecy of the transport of materiel and technical
9 equipment which is delivered to Srebrenica in the customary manner."
10 Please tell us, can you recall these activities of April?
11 Because you were a liaison officer at the time. And what is this exactly
12 about? What does this concern? Thank you.
13 A. I remember them. They related to an effort by DutchBat to deploy
14 more observation posts to have a clearer view of what was happening
15 around the enclave, and this was part of a plan to improve the view of
16 what was happening both within and outside the enclave.
17 Q. Thank you. Were you prohibited from stationing or setting up a
18 check-point in that sector, the sector of Lozina village? Thank you.
19 A. I was not present at all discussions about this because I had
20 other duties as well, but I remember that the Muslims resisted, they
21 objected, and exactly how setting up these new observation posts were
22 negotiated, whether the location was adjusted as a compromise, I don't
23 remember that. But I believe that new observation posts were placed in
24 that area.
25 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us what it was called, this observation
Page 9049
1 post in the Lozina sector? Thank you.
2 A. If I remember correctly, that was Observation Post Kilo. It may
3 have initially served as a temporary post, given the lack of clarity
4 between both parties.
5 Q. Thank you. Do you mean -- when you say "the parties," do you
6 mean the BH Army and UNPROFOR or do you mean the warring parties? Thank
7 you.
8 A. What I mean by that is between UNPROFOR and DutchBat or, rather,
9 DutchBat and the Muslim authorities, whether these were, in fact,
10 military people or a combination including the mayor of the enclave,
11 I think it was a combination.
12 Q. Thank you. Now I'm going to read paragraph 2, even though
13 I thought I wouldn't.
14 "UNPROFOR representatives do not accept our interpretation of the
15 agreement on the complete cessation of hostilities reached between
16 representatives of the army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the
17 aggressor. In view of such a state of affairs, the liaison officer of
18 the 28th Army Division Srebrenica requested an urgent meeting with
19 representatives of the Dutch Battalion command. He met them twice on
20 28th of April, 1995, at 10 and 1600 hours, when he attempted invoking
21 documents of the General Staff of the army of the Republic of
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the 2nd Corps command in Tuzla to make it clear to
23 them that the setting up of a new observation post was impermissible
24 without a previous proposal to do so by the joint regional commission
25 comprising representatives of UNPROFOR and the 28th Division commands,
Page 9050
1 which also has to be approved by the joint central commission."
2 My question is: The problem of weapons smuggling from one
3 enclave to another, from one demilitarised zone into another, should that
4 have been resolved in the manner proposed in this document at a joint
5 meeting between the UNPROFOR representative and the command of the
6 Division whose weapons were being smuggled? Thank you.
7 A. Setting up these observation posts related to smuggling in
8 general, including supplies. It also related to safety, having a view of
9 what was happening outside the enclave. It didn't target smuggling
10 alone; it was a combination of things.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: For the sake of the record, Mr. Tolimir has mixed
12 two parts of this document while reading from it. He started with
13 paragraph 2 of the document and then he moved to paragraph 1.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: That was the interpreter's
15 error because we were not sure where Mr. Tolimir was reading from. We
16 apologise.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. That clarifies the
18 situation. And Mr. Tolimir was reading very fast, and it's very
19 difficult when you are reading so fast to catch everything for the
20 interpreters. Please carry on.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I am going to repeat
22 the first paragraph that I read as the first one so that the interpreters
23 could put it into the transcript. I quote, the very beginning of the
24 document:
25 "On the 27th of April, 1995, the command of the UNPROFOR Dutch
Page 9051
1 Battalion in Srebrenica began carrying out engineering work in order to
2 set up an observation post in the Lozina village sector. They made the
3 decision to do so on their own. The setting up of an observation post in
4 this area creates the preconditions for controlling the Srebrenica-Zepa
5 corridor [road] and vice versa, which directly impedes the safety and
6 secrecy of the transport of materiel and technical equipment which is
7 delivered to Srebrenica in the customary manner."
8 That was the first paragraph of the report that was sent to the
9 Chief of the General Staff of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina from
10 Srebrenica.
11 I apologise for reading fast, and I thank the Presiding Judge for
12 helping me to put this correctly into the transcript. Thank you.
13 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
14 Q. My question is: As representatives of UNPROFOR, were you
15 duty-bound to inform the Armija where you would set up your observation
16 post? And did you have the right to monitor the roads to check if there
17 was any smuggling activity there; for example, the Srebrenica-Zepa road?
18 A. Yes. At DutchBat we assumed that we had that right. That's why
19 we did it.
20 Q. Thank you. The activities of the Bosnia-Herzegovina army in
21 preventing UNPROFOR from doing its job, were they illegal or were they in
22 line with the demilitarisation agreement? Thank you.
23 A. Well, there was an attempt to keep those smuggling routes open.
24 It was an attempt.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Boering, this was not the question. Were
Page 9052
1 they illegal or were they in line with the demilitarisation agreement?
2 That was the question.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Thank you to the witness. My question is: Is it clearly stated
8 in this report that the Srebrenica-Zepa road that passes through the
9 village of Lozina is used for the passage of materiel, technical
10 equipment, and weapons that are being sent from Zepa to Srebrenica?
11 A. Yes. That's what it says.
12 Q. Thank you. Can we now look at paragraph 3 of this document in
13 the Serbian. This is the last one that we are looking at, on page 1. In
14 the English, this is also the last paragraph -- actually, it's on page 2
15 in the English. First paragraph on page 2. Thank you. I quote --
16 you've already seen it. It's the last paragraph.
17 "For our part we want to stress that the setting up of an
18 UNPROFOR observation post in this locality would practically block the
19 Srebrenica-Zepa corridor and prevent the transport of materiel and
20 technical equipment arriving from Zepa to Srebrenica. Consequently, we
21 need your instructions and suggestions on how to resolve this problem."
22 My question is: Was -- were you prevented or banned from setting
23 up an observation post in the village of Loznica in order to prevent the
24 flow of materiel and equipment and weapons from continuing -- which was
25 supposed to be part of your duties?
Page 9053
1 A. I remember that DutchBat gave this matter a lot of thought. As
2 for whether an observation post was, in fact, set up in that area, in
3 those immediate surroundings, does not come to mind at this time.
4 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Actually, it's already been admitted as a
5 Prosecution exhibit so I withdraw what I was going to say. The document
6 has already been admitted.
7 Can we now look at the reply by the command of the 2nd Corps to
8 this question. Can we look at 65 ter 06700.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, are you tendering the last document?
10 It was admitted yesterday as a P document and it will be part of the
11 internal memorandum of the Registry. Please carry on and put a question
12 to the witness, please.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we now show the
14 witness 65 ter 06700.
15 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
16 Q. We can see it on the screen. This is a document of the 2nd Corps
17 of the army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, addressed to the
18 command of the 28th Division of the land army, and that relates to the
19 cessation of construction activities on the UN observation post. Can we
20 look at paragraph marked with the number 1 of that order. I quote:
21 "1. The 28th Army Division command, in cooperation with the
22 Srebrenica municipal civilian structures, shall undertake all measures
23 not to allow further construction work on the UNPROFOR observation post
24 in the Soline [sic] village sector.
25 "2. In all contacts with the representatives of the Dutch
Page 9054
1 Battalion, we shall consistently adhere to the position that the location
2 of observation posts, locations of observation posts, were agreed on at
3 the level of the General Staff of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the
4 UNPROFOR B and H command at the signing of the agreement on the
5 demilitarisation of Srebrenica and Zepa and that any change in that
6 respect must be verified at the same level."
7 Thank you. I'm finished with the quote.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer?
9 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, just a correction for the record. At
10 page 23, line 10, what I think I heard through my earphones was Soline.
11 It didn't make it into the transcript but I think we can all agree that
12 what's in the document from which General Tolimir was reading was the
13 village of Lozina, which we've heard reference to.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The accused said Soline.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I thank you Mr. Thayer. My
16 question is -- actually I meant to say the village of Lozina.
17 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
18 Q. My question is: Do you know if the UNPROFOR and the UNPROFOR
19 command in Zepa agreed with the Main Staff of the Bosnia-Herzegovina army
20 and the units in the Srebrenica demilitarised zone about the places where
21 they could set up observation posts and the places where they could not?
22 Thank you.
23 A. No. That was not known by me.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I think it's break time. We are
25 over time already. We need the first break now and we will resume five
Page 9055
1 minutes past 11.00.
2 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.
3 --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. Tolimir. Please carry on.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mr. Boering, has your command in Tuzla or Sarajevo advised you as
8 the UNPROFOR command in Srebrenica that you were not to continue building
9 up the observation post in Lozina village? Thank you.
10 A. I know nothing about that.
11 Q. Thank you. Was this observation post ever established in Lozina
12 village? Thank you.
13 A. If I delve into my memory, I believe that there was a temporary
14 post in the area.
15 Q. Thank you. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber what it means,
16 what "temporary" means.
17 A. It's a post consisting of a vehicle and manpower positioned there
18 for a period, for example, a week, and is not intended to remain there
19 permanently.
20 Q. Thank you. Were you obliged to announce to the Muslims in every
21 particular instance that you were to go to the Lozina village to carry
22 out these searches or checks, to check whether the materiel that was not,
23 in fact, permitted to pass through be transported down that road? Thank
24 you.
25 A. I don't remember any specific procedure for that.
Page 9056
1 Q. Thank you. Can we show the witness in e-court D65 -- that was
2 marked by Mr. Franken -- to assist the witness in answering my questions.
3 Thank you. Thank you.
4 Now, you can see this map. Can you please show us where the
5 observation post was at Lozina village, and was it the observation post
6 that you started constructing or the one that was actually shut down
7 after it was prohibited by the Muslim army?
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, are you asking the witness to mark
9 it on this map?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Perhaps
11 the witness can tell us which observation post was set up there from
12 which they had control over the village of Lozina. Thank you. And if
13 possible, perhaps the witness can mark it on the map.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: With the assistance of the Court Usher, please.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's been a while. It was
16 somewhere here in the southern section. [Marks]
17 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us, on this stretch of seven
19 kilometres of either side of the road that went from Zepa through Lozina
20 to Srebrenica, was there a check-point on that stretch? Thank you.
21 A. On the road from Srebrenica to Zepa, so outside the enclave in
22 the direction of Zepa, we did not have a DutchBat check-point.
23 Conceivably, there was a Muslim check-point. I don't know.
24 Q. Thank you. Was that in Lozina village? Thank you.
25 A. I was not in that area, so I haven't the foggiest idea of that.
Page 9057
1 In this specific area, and let's say the subject matter of this
2 check-point, my involvement was peripheral. I was certainly not the main
3 operator aware of all the ins and outs. This was more the area of
4 Franken and Karremans, and the company's commander of the actual area.
5 Q. Thank you. Since you don't know anything about that, I will not
6 insist.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see 65 ter 065701 [as
8 interpreted]. And I would like to tender this document into evidence.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This marked map will be received as an exhibit.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As D00143, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, can you please repeat the 65 ter
12 number. I'm not sure if that is correct.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I wanted 06701. 06701.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I was told there was a problem with the last
15 document, the marking on the map, that was lost by the Registry. This is
16 the map D65, and I would like to ask the witness to draw the circle again
17 on this map because it was not saved.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Now it should be saved and
20 received as D143. Was it fixed now?
21 So we are waiting for 65 ter 6701.
22 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Thank you, we see it before us. I will now read out what this
24 document deals with. This is a document from the 2nd Corps command and
25 it is addressed to the command of the 28th Division, and it says that
Page 9058
1 instructions are requested for further action in connection with
2 UNPROFOR's intention to set up an observation post in Srebrenica. And
3 this relates to Lozina. And I will only read out the first paragraph and
4 see what the corps has to say about this. And I quote:
5 "1. The assertion made by UNPROFOR in Srebrenica that de jure it
6 has unrestricted freedom of movement and can choose the sites for OS on
7 the territory of the Srebrenica demilitarised zone is accurate.
8 Agreement on the demilitarisation of Srebrenica and Zepa of 8 May 1993.
9 "2. The assertion of UNPROFOR in Srebrenica is true that, based
10 on the agreement on demilitarisation, they are duty-bound to prevent any
11 attempt of uniformed personnel to military equipment and combat assets to
12 enter --"
13 The second paragraph, while we wait for the English version, I
14 will just read it out.
15 "The assertion of UNPROFOR in Srebrenica is correct; namely, that
16 on the basis of the agreement on demilitarisation, they are required to
17 prevent any entry attempt by persons in uniform, combat equipment, and
18 weapons in demilitarised zone."
19 Could we please scroll the page up a little bit, because I would
20 like to quote the next portion. And then it says:
21 "Bearing this in mind --" and then it says, under 1: "The
22 problem --"and may I just add this is the next page in English, a new
23 paragraph numbered as paragraph 1, and it says:
24 "This issue should not be escalated to the level of the General
25 Staff, BH command of UNPROFOR, because the unit of UNPROFOR in Srebrenica
Page 9059
1 would in that way, be allowed sufficient time to set up an observation
2 post."
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... English
4 translation, there is no further page, and if I compare the two versions
5 in English and B/C/S, number 2, it seems to be quite different.
6 Mr. Thayer?
7 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, we just need to stay on page 1 in the
8 English and I think that will take care of the problem.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is not -- it seems not to be the same.
10 MR. THAYER: It's the wrong document, actually, Mr. President.
11 I think they've got the wrong document on the screen. I was following,
12 on my hard copy, along with what General Tolimir was reading. And I'm
13 looking at the screen and I think that's the wrong document.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Only the date is the same. Mr. Thayer, it is a P
15 document, tendered yesterday by the Prosecution. Perhaps there was a
16 wrong translation added to the original B/C/S version. That might be the
17 explanation for this difficulty.
18 MR. THAYER: Yes, Mr. President. I'm just confirming the B/C/S
19 is correct, the -- if we go to page -- I'm sorry, Mr. President, but if
20 we could go to page 2 just to see what we have there in the English, just
21 see that again, yeah.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please wait a moment, Mr. Tolimir.
24 MR. THAYER: What we can do ist that's clearly the wrong -- it's
25 an incomplete or erroneous translation. I've got an English hard copy.
Page 9060
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think it's the right translation but
2 incomplete. It just stopped after the third line of paragraph 2.
3 MR. THAYER: Yes. I have a complete translation in English. We
4 can put it on the ELMO, if that helps, or at least hand it to the
5 witness.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: That would be very helpful. One copy for the
7 witness, please, and another copy on the ELMO, please.
8 Mr. Tolimir, we have this document in the English translation now
9 on the ELMO and you may proceed.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
11 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
12 Q. I just wanted to read out paragraph 1, below the interceding
13 paragraph between 3 and 1:
14 "Do not bring this problem to the level of the army General
15 Staff, UNPROFOR's BH command, because this would give the UNPROFOR unit
16 in Srebrenica ample time to set up an observation post."
17 And my question for the witness is as follows: Since the
18 superior command in Tuzla understood clearly that UNPROFOR was right in
19 what they were saying, and we saw that in the first paragraph, my
20 question to you is why was it that you did not insist on being allowed to
21 proceed with the setting up of the observation post in Lozina village?
22 Thank you.
23 A. Interpreting this for myself, item 1 of this document, which is
24 disappearing now --
25 Q. Thank you. I'm not asking you to interpret this document. Just
Page 9061
1 please answer my question.
2 A. In this document, it refers to an assumption of DutchBat in
3 Srebrenica, and there is no agreement from Tuzla or Sarajevo on this
4 subject. So item 1, the assertion made by UNPROFOR in Srebrenica, the
5 first line, indicates to me that it's a matter of interpretation by the
6 unit in Srebrenica.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Boering, Mr. Tolimir put to you the following
8 question: Why was it that you did not insist on being allowed to proceed
9 with the setting up of the observation post in Lozina village? That was
10 the question. Have you an answer?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have any answer to that.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Why did you not insist?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, I was peripherally involved
14 in this subject was not an operator present at all meetings, so this
15 could be a perfectly good question, but not to me.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
17 Mr. Tolimir, continue please.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
19 Since Witness does not know the answer, I would like to tender
20 this document into evidence.
21 JUDGE FLUEGGE: If I'm not mistaken, that was tendered and
22 admitted yesterday through the Prosecution.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a question. Could I please
24 see the texts again?
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think, Mr. Boering, you touched something on
Page 9062
1 this machine and that was the moment it disappeared. It was the ELMO --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
3 Thank you. Thank you.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We don't have it on the screen.
5 Mr. Boering, do you want to add something in respect to this?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I don't want to add anything.
7 I'm happy to be seeing the transcript of the case in front of me again.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now you have the transcript. Okay. Thank you
9 very much.
10 Mr. Tolimir, go ahead, please.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
13 Q. We've already spent a lot of time on this so I have no further
14 questions about this topic. Let's move on to the next group of
15 questions. In view of the fact that Muslims in the area of Bandera
16 Triangle conducted some illicit activities and that in Lozina village
17 that was the case too, where they publicly said that there was a
18 transport -- that weapons were being transported from Srebrenica to Zepa,
19 did the UNPROFOR command in Srebrenica inform the -- its superior command
20 of this?
21 A. I think there were weekly or daily reports from DutchBat to the
22 superior command, and all matters that were known or suspected were
23 reported. So I assume that matters such as suspected arms smuggling was
24 reported as well. But confirmed transport, smuggling of arms, as far as
25 I know, we didn't actually identify those.
Page 9063
1 Q. Thank you. On the basis of these impermissible activities and no
2 overview of the activities, did UNPROFOR try to assess what were the
3 intentions of the operations group in Srebrenica? Thank you.
4 A. That must undoubtedly have happened. And as far as I remember,
5 that related in part to smuggling operations and the objective was to get
6 something of an impression of that, and DutchBat tried to carry that out,
7 and we were able to do that to some extent because our own logistics was
8 no longer optimal either; fuel shortages and the like. So we were no
9 longer able to operate extensively everywhere.
10 Q. Thank you. Since these are activities from January 1995 and then
11 April 1995, were you restricted because of the fuel quantities from
12 carrying out your full duties in controlling the demilitarised zone?
13 A. Well, let's say from March and April, we -- our fuel supply was
14 reduced, the supplies to the enclave were reduced due to lack of
15 clearances issued and, as a consequence, we weren't able to operate as
16 much with vehicles.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, we have to finish the testimony of
18 this witness today. I think you are going around and around the same
19 topic. If you want to raise other matters in your cross-examination, you
20 should consider that, to do that as soon as possible. We have lost a lot
21 of time this morning by repeating the same questions, and once you said,
22 "I'm running out of time." That is perhaps because of some repetition,
23 we have to observe. If you want to raise other matters, deal with other
24 issues, you should do that.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
Page 9064
1 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
2 Q. My question is: Were you able to reach other points other than
3 the ones that were located in the Bandera Triangle that we were
4 discussing? Thank you.
5 A. I'm doing my best to understand your question, but I'm not
6 entirely successful. I would say that we had freedom of movement in the
7 enclave except for the Bandera Triangle, if that's what you mean.
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Boering. We are not going to talk about that
9 anymore. I would like to see D67 in e-court, and then I'm going to put
10 questions to you on the basis of facts that are going to be evident from
11 this document. Thank you.
12 We see a document here from the General Staff of the Republic of
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina on the 13th of July 1995, after the fall of the
14 enclave, to the president of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Alija Izetbegovic,
15 as an interim report, listing all their military activities in the
16 Srebrenica and Zepa zones.
17 In paragraph 2, line 1, the only one, it says:
18 "Specifically, the following has been done for Srebrenica and
19 Zepa."
20 And then the first bullet point:
21 "To start with, lethal assets and materiel and technical
22 equipment were brought in on foot in fairly small quantities.
23 "2. 17 helicopter flights were carried out in each of which a
24 helicopter was hit." And later we'll see what was brought in on these
25 helicopters.
Page 9065
1 "3. In this way we transported a number of seriously wounded
2 injured and brought in and took back 15 from Srebrenica and five from
3 Zepa, men who are graduated from the wartime officers' college.
4 "4. In preparation for a future operation to link up the
5 enclaves, we brought in and took back four brigade commanders, two
6 brigade chiefs of staff, and the 26th Division Chief of Staff. The
7 Division commander, who was meant to go on the next helicopter flight,
8 did not return after the final flight ended tragically. Naser remained."
9 My question is: If you remember, you said that you did not see
10 Naser Oric after February. This is something you said in the
11 examination-in-chief. Was this the period when he left and could not
12 return anymore? Is that the period in which these officers were in the
13 territory in Bosnia-Herzegovina in order for the Zepa and Srebrenica
14 enclaves to be linked up at some point in the future with the corps?
15 Thank you.
16 A. Well, those are several questions at once. Let me start with the
17 first one. Sometime at the end of February, possibly, Naser Oric was
18 discovered to have left. Where he actually was was kept secret. We
19 suspected that he was in Tuzla. Whether at that point operations were in
20 progress to connect or link up Zepa and Srebrenica, I don't know about
21 that. I did not hear or see any information about that. I was aware
22 that smuggling was taking place between the two enclaves, and the staff,
23 including the mayor of Srebrenica, sometimes stayed in Zepa. So there
24 was a link between Zepa and Srebrenica.
25 Q. Thank you. Are you able to say whether the UNPROFOR command in
Page 9066
1 Srebrenica at any point got any information that would indicate that the
2 demilitarised enclaves of Zepa and Srebrenica wanted to link up and
3 wanted to link up with their corps, the home unit in Tuzla and Kladanj?
4 Thank you.
5 A. I know nothing about that.
6 Q. Thank you. Can we now look at the next page of this document in
7 the Serbian. And in the English it's already on this page, if we can
8 just scroll up a little bit and then continues in -- on the next page,
9 and then we can see what has been brought in from -- of the weapons.
10 I think this is sufficient of a question for the witness. Thank you.
11 My question is: These weapons and these reports, do they
12 indicate that the Muslim army was preparing for some combat assault
13 actions, and did UNPROFOR have any information about these assault
14 actions that were being launched from the demilitarised zones? Thank
15 you.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Your answer, please.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no immediate answer to that.
18 There were regular reports of breakouts from the enclave in the direction
19 of Serbia, but as for actually being involved in the planning or being
20 notified that the activities were taking place, no.
21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Thank you. Can we now look at 65 ter 040333. Thank you.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Would you please repeat the number. I'm not sure
24 if we have the correct number.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 04033. Thank you.
Page 9067
1 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
2 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
3 Q. While we are waiting, I'm going to say, because there is no
4 English, this is a document that the Main Staff of the Army of Republika
5 Srpska sent to the commander of the Main Staff about activities of the
6 enemy in relation to the units of the Main Staff.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer?
8 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, I have a hard copy, English
9 translation. I might suggest that we do the same as we did with the
10 other one.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is there no English translation in e-court?
12 MR. THAYER: I don't know if there is. There wasn't one listed
13 in the defence list. Doesn't appear that there is one in e-court, but I
14 have one.
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. It should be put on the
16 ELMO. The Chamber would appreciate if the translation could be uploaded
17 in e-court. Mr. Gajic.
18 Mr. Tolimir, your question.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
21 Q. I just indicated what the document was about. I'm going to quote
22 a part of the document and then I'm going to put a question to it. This
23 document was signed by General Tolimir and sent to the commander of the
24 Main Staff and the 65th regiment because of the activities directed at
25 the Main Staff and the regiment. It states here:
Page 9068
1 "On the 23rd of June of this year, at 0200 hours, a unit of
2 approximately 300 soldiers headed out from Srebrenica, led by Ibrahim
3 Mandic, the commander of the 281st Eastern Bosnia Light Brigade, Veis
4 Sabic, the commander of the 284th Light Mountain Brigade, and his deputy
5 Semso Salikovic and a guide man called Zoran Cardakovic, a Muslim. The
6 unit's task was to insert itself that same day at approximately 2200
7 hours into the general sector of Ruzine Vode, Han Pijesak municipality.
8 This group is equipped with automatic weapons, with a couple of 60
9 millimetre mortars, and some rocket-propelled grenades."
10 Thank you.
11 Please, my question is: Did you have any information that groups
12 were infiltrating themselves from demilitarised zones, from Srebrenica to
13 Zepa, in groups of 300 or so soldiers and that they were led -- being led
14 to carry out various assignments in the depth of the defence of the Army
15 of Republika Srpska, as we can see on this -- in this information from
16 the Main Staff? Thank you.
17 A. No, I was not aware of anything like that.
18 Q. Thank you. The last paragraph, the fourth paragraph in the
19 Serbian on this page, can we scroll up, please, states:
20 "Also on the 23rd of June of this year, in the evening hours, a
21 company of 120 soldiers --"
22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We are unable to see the
23 text.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: With the assistance of the witness and now of the
25 Court Usher, we will see it soon. Thank you.
Page 9069
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] "-- commanded by Zehrudin
2 Jasarevic was sent from the composition of the Manoeuvre Brigade for a
3 rotation to the sector of Jovino Brdo that will last five days and during
4 which time they are to perform reconnaissance in the direction of
5 Jeskovik [phoen] and the Peruca hydroelectric power plant in the Skelani
6 municipality."
7 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Thank you. My question is, did you have information that there
9 was a Manoeuvre Brigade in Srebrenica and that they were carrying out
10 actions in relation to Serbia and in relation to the hydroelectric power
11 plant, which at that time was a key industrial facility, as it is now?
12 Thank you.
13 A. I know nothing about that.
14 Q. Thank you. Can we now look at 1D27, please. Thank you. Can we
15 look at page 2 of this document.
16 This is a document of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina command
17 of the 28th Division, that it sent to the command of the 2nd Corps in
18 Tuzla. Can we look at page 2 of document, please, where the information
19 is confirmed that they are also sending Mr. Tursunovic to Zepa. If you
20 look at the second paragraph on this page, where it says:
21 "Apart from the other measures, I have decided to send to Zepa
22 part of the company sabotage and reconnaissance platoon, a unit attached
23 to the staff, and the commander of the 281st Light Mountain Brigade,
24 Major Zulfo Tursunovic."
25 Can you tell us whether you knew anything about the departure of
Page 9070
1 Tursunovic from Srebrenica to Zepa and his frequent trips to that area in
2 order to guide the activities of the sabotage and reconnaissance platoon?
3 Thank you.
4 A. I know nothing about that.
5 Q. Thank you. Can we go back to page 1 of this document, please, at
6 the very beginning. We are talking about the month of June - it's on the
7 screen already - where it says in the document, I quote:
8 "The problem of members of the army of the Republic of
9 Bosnia-Herzegovina and civilians leaving the Srebrenica and Zepa safe
10 areas in the direction of Tuzla, Kladanj and Serbia, have been present
11 since the first days of demilitarisation of this area."
12 I'm going to skip a part and then I'm going to read line 15 to
13 you of this first paragraph. This is five rows above this number, about
14 the division command order, and that sentence states:
15 "However, in the summer months it is as if some unknown wave
16 flows through the people, suddenly creating a euphoria that the best
17 solution is to leave for Tuzla. This literally causes waves throughout
18 the entire area and the majority of people are then ready to leave."
19 In view of this, and the fact that you said yesterday that they
20 were not going to Tuzla voluntarily, can you say if you can tell from
21 this document whether this was a problem that was there throughout the
22 whole demilitarised period in the safe area, this departure of people
23 going towards Tuzla and Kladanj?
24 A. I was aware that the population was leaving in small groups for
25 Tuzla or Kladanj. I was also aware that it was a dangerous stretch.
Page 9071
1 I remember that in the period from March to June food and medical
2 supplies seriously deteriorated so that the population figured out that
3 prospects were grim.
4 Q. Thank you. Did UNPROFOR have reports that the civilians from the
5 Zepa and Srebrenica enclaves kept crossing over illegally to the
6 territory under the control of the Muslim Federation, to Tuzla, Kladanj,
7 Sarajevo, and so forth, and that some of them even tried to flee to
8 Serbia? Thank you.
9 A. Well, it was clearly happening, and there were reports, for
10 example, by the mayor of Srebrenica that things were tense among the
11 locals.
12 Q. Thank you. If civilians throughout this period after 1993, when
13 it was demilitarised, up until they left the enclaves, continued taking
14 this trip, crossing dangerous territory, does this actually contradict
15 your statement that they were not willing to leave, that they did not
16 leave there willingly but were, rather, forced to? Thank you.
17 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Your answer, please, sir.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm trying to figure out the
19 question in my own mind. Ultimately, the population that left the
20 enclave in convoys boarded the buses and, in my view, at that point those
21 people had no other option because no supplies were available to meet
22 their primary needs, and the same factor had motivated people to leave
23 the enclave at previous points in time, so a form of voluntary departure,
24 you could describe it as that, but forced by circumstances.
25 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
Page 9072
1 Q. Thank you. Can we go back to page 2, please, of this document so
2 that I can show you, if you did not remember it, and I'm referring to the
3 passage that I quoted earlier about Major Zulfo Tursunovic who was
4 supposed to prevent those people who were trying illegally to leave Zepa
5 and go to Kladanj or Tuzla. So my question is: Did even Muslims prevent
6 those Muslims who were trying and wanted to leave the enclaves? That's
7 my question.
8 A. That may have happened in that manner. To -- this was to have
9 the enclave continue existing.
10 Q. Thank you. I would just like to read out the penultimate
11 sentence of this document. And this document was drafted by the Muslim
12 side, not the Serb side. And it says:
13 "A sabotage platoon of the company will, in cooperation with the
14 police of the 285th Light Mountain Brigade, in identifying such people,
15 arresting them and forcibly returning them to Srebrenica."
16 And the last sentence:
17 "We are of the opinion that the command of the 2nd Corps, in
18 cooperation with the other authorities, should undertake more severe
19 repressive measures against all persons leaving the zone."
20 I'm not going to read any further. End of quote there. But my
21 question would be this: Did even Muslims take repressive measures to
22 prevent people from moving out of the demilitarised zones of Zepa and
23 Srebrenica? Thank you.
24 A. As is apparent from this report drafted by Ramiz, Naser's deputy,
25 this was policy.
Page 9073
1 Q. Thank you. I'm not asking about the policy. I'm asking you
2 whether you, as a member of UNPROFOR, had received such reports that the
3 civilians were actually wanting to leave the demilitarised zones and move
4 on to the areas under the control of the Bosnian Federation. Thank you.
5 A. Well, I can say that people I spoke with, whose prospects were
6 grim, mentioned that they were considering leaving. Measures as
7 described in this report were not reported to us, or in any case not to
8 me.
9 Q. Thank you. In other words, you did have such knowledge because
10 you just told us that you had occasion to talk with people who had a grim
11 view of the situation.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now I would like to tender this
13 document into evidence, unless it's already been admitted.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received as an exhibit.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As D00144, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, the previous document, 65 ter 4033
17 is not in evidence yet. Are you tendering it?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I would
19 like to tender it into evidence.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received and we are hoping that the
21 Prosecution will upload the English translation.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it will be received as D00145,
23 marked for identification. Thank you.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: In fact, yes, it will now be marked, not pending
25 translations but pending uploading the translation. Then it will be an
Page 9074
1 exhibit.
2 Mr. Tolimir, please continue.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Could we
4 now pull up in e-court 1D191. Thank you. Thank you.
5 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
6 Q. This is a document confirming the information we saw a little
7 earlier, that sabotage units were being sent to take action against the
8 Main Staff. Here we see this is a document from the Army of Bosnia and
9 Herzegovina, sent to the command of the 2nd Corps and the 28th Division,
10 and it is sent as a combat report. And there it says:
11 "Pursuant to an order from the representative of the commander of
12 the 28th Division of Srebrenica, Major Ramiz Becirovic, strictly
13 confidential, number 01-127, from 1995, dated 20th June 1995, on taking
14 measures to conduct sabotage operations in order to inflict losses on the
15 aggressor, personnel and materiel losses, and in the overall attempt to
16 push back the Chetnik forces from Sarajevo."
17 And now they number a number of -- they list a number of groups
18 there. Can we please scroll this document a bit up.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I don't see this document on your
20 list of documents to be used during cross-examination. And in addition,
21 Mr. Thayer?
22 MR. THAYER: I'm just wondering if there is a translation that
23 the Defence has to assist the witness. I'm not sure if there is one
24 available.
25 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed. Mr. Gajic?
Page 9075
1 MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we put documents -- as
2 soon as we receive a translation of a document, we enter it in e-court.
3 For this particular document, we have as yet received no translation.
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Again, it's not on the list of documents to be
5 used with this witness.
6 Mr. Tolimir, put your question to the witness, please.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
8 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
9 Q. My question is this: Did you have information about sabotage
10 terrorist groups being sent, led by Zulfo Tursunovic, from Srebrenica via
11 Zepa to the Main Staff? And did you ever receive any such information
12 from anyone? Thank you.
13 A. I was aware that Zulfo was active, and also that he was
14 pressuring people in the Bandera Triangle, and that he frequently
15 performed operations outside the enclave, but this was more general.
16 Q. Thank you. I would like to show another document from the same
17 period, from June 1997, sent from the army of BH, that's document 1D356.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We don't have an English translation yet.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We haven't received it yet. We
20 have requested a translation. Thank you.
21 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
22 Q. As we have no English translation, I will only read out the first
23 paragraph under the date:
24 "In the morning hours on the 26th of June, 1995, our forces from
25 the Srebrenica area attacked and set on fire Visnjica village. According
Page 9076
1 to unconfirmed information, Chetniks suffered losses among the civilian
2 population."
3 My question is this: Did you -- or were you ever informed about
4 an attack launched from the enclave in Srebrenica on Visnjica village,
5 which was outside the enclave to the west and that is exactly the area
6 where your movement was restricted? Thank you.
7 A. In contacts with Momir Nikolic in Bratunac, he regularly
8 mentioned incidents of outbreaks from the enclave by Muslims, describing
9 the losses. It's perfectly possible that this was reported to us, but it
10 isn't fresh in my memory at this time.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we please have
12 this document admitted into evidence? That's 1D356. And in the
13 meantime --
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, the Chamber has a problem with
16 receiving that document. You have only put one question to the witness
17 and he said, "It is perfectly possible that this was reported to us, but
18 it isn't fresh in my memory at this time." I think there is no
19 authentication by the witness about this document, we don't know any
20 details about the document. We have a big problem to receive it at this
21 point in time. You may use it with another witness and, especially as we
22 have no translation, we don't know anything about it. Wait, please, I'm
23 still talking. Your request to admit it is denied.
24 Now we have another document on the screen. Please go ahead.
25 Still the same. I'm sorry, I was mistaken. Please go ahead.
Page 9077
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I would
2 now like to pull up D52. That's a document that has already been
3 admitted, and I would like to talk with the witness about this because he
4 said that he didn't know that a village on the very border of the enclave
5 had been torched. Thank you.
6 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Here we see that document, that's D52, another report from the
8 command of the 2nd Corps of the BH Army of the 8th of July, 1995, when it
9 was sent to units as information on combat results of the units and
10 commands of the 28th Ground Army Division. Would you please just take a
11 look at the first bullet point below the first paragraph. It says: "60
12 Chetniks were liquidated," so on and so forth, what was captured, and
13 then it says:
14 "In the village of Visnjica, large quantities of ammunition were
15 seized but the soldiers were exhausted and could not remove all of it, so
16 it was destroyed, as were all the facilities that the aggressor could use
17 for military purposes."
18 Thank you. End of quote.
19 Now, you said that you had a meeting with Nikolic, and he might
20 have mentioned this, but did you also have a meeting with Mr. -- a
21 gentleman from the Milici Brigade regarding this same issue? And you
22 mentioned this gentleman as a man by the name of Sarkic, and you said
23 that you had two meetings with this person. Thank you.
24 A. I can't remember having dealt with Sarkic about this. I met with
25 him once in early January at the introduction, at the very start of my
Page 9078
1 deployment, and later on at the very end, upon my departure for Kladanj,
2 he was present there. In between, I did not speak with him. All our
3 dealings concerning the VRS either went through Vukovic or, ordinarily,
4 they would go through Nikolic.
5 Q. Thank you. In other words, you didn't know anything about your
6 command having any information that a village to the west of the
7 demilitarised zone had been torched in the area not far from the Bandera
8 Triangle. It was some six kilometres from the separation line and
9 Bandera Triangle.
10 A. Well, reports regularly arrived of shooting and combat, so it was
11 known that activities were taking place in that region. The details of
12 these operations, however, were not known, especially six kilometres
13 away. It must have been audible to observation posts and must have been
14 reported, but an actual description of what was happening in that village
15 was not available to us.
16 Q. Thank you. Could we now see 2806 in e-court, please. My
17 apologies. Actually, we need 1D364 now, thank you. 1D364. Thank you.
18 Here we have the document before us. It was also from the Army
19 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, its 2nd Corps, and in June - in other words a
20 month before the events in the enclave - this document was sent to the
21 commander of the 28th Division, of land forces, and the command of the
22 285th Light Brigade, and it goes on to read as follows:
23 "Our congratulations on the successful completion of your combat
24 operations which have significantly contributed to a successful
25 completion of the operation to lift the blockade of Sarajevo and where
Page 9079
1 you have inflicted heavy losses on the aggressor in the fight for the
2 ultimate and final liberation of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and
3 the destruction of the Serbo-Montenegrin fascists."
4 That is what it reads in this document, signed by the commander,
5 Sead Delic. And then it goes on to say:
6 "In the next period you are to comply with the orders issued so
7 far. Prepare your plans for active combat at the appropriate time.
8 Orders for those combat operations shall be forwarded to you from us or
9 the BH Army Main Staff."
10 Now, in view of what I've read, did you have any information
11 that, in the month of June - in other words, a month before the enclave
12 fell - in late June and later, Muslim forces were conducting active
13 combat operations, as it says in this document, against the rear lines of
14 the Serbian army? Thank you.
15 A. We were aware that activities were taking place from the enclave
16 to relieve the burden from Sarajevo. And that was indicated regularly
17 through our contacts with, in part, the VRS.
18 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Thayer?
19 MR. THAYER: Mr. President, keeping an eye on the clock for this
20 witness, but also for future witnesses, we've said it before and I'll say
21 it again, that it is not contested, in fact it's part of the
22 Prosecution's case and has been from the beginning of this trial and
23 previous trials, that the Muslim forces operating from within the
24 Srebrenica enclave had, as part of their objective, tying down VRS troops
25 as a way of drawing VRS resources away from the Sarajevo front. That is
Page 9080
1 not contested. And I think I see from the cross-examination list of
2 documents a number of documents - I don't know if there are a lot more -
3 in this line of questioning, but again, it's not in contest, we could
4 probably agree with the Defence, as we do, I think, on 99 per cent of
5 their documents, that there will be no objection from the Prosecution to
6 tendering them, whether it's by way of a bar table motion later or some
7 other mechanism, but to just simply try to save some time and avoid going
8 over these same uncontested issues, I would urge the Defence to look at
9 that, especially with this witness, for whom we have a limited amount of
10 time, but also in the future. Again, we are always available to do that;
11 it is not contested in this case.
12 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. The Chamber would like to
13 invite the parties to negotiate if it would be possible to reach an
14 agreement about these facts. Indeed, that would help the Defence and the
15 Chamber to know what we are talking about.
16 The Chamber is concerned a bit about the time. It's the last
17 hearing day of this year before the winter recess. I would like to ask
18 Mr. Tolimir about your estimation of the remainder of cross-examination.
19 You have used more than four and a half hours up to now. We have only
20 three-quarters of an hour left. The Prosecution will need some time for
21 re-examination. Mr. Thayer?
22 MR. THAYER: Not yet, Mr. President, and I doubt that we will
23 have any, based on the way things are going.
24 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. That will be very helpful,
25 especially for Mr. Tolimir. Have you any idea if you will be able to
Page 9081
1 finish the cross-examination today?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I'm
3 going to try to finish, and I thank Mr. Thayer for allowing us time to be
4 able to complete the cross-examination of this witness by the end of the
5 day today.
6 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. We adjourn and resume at 1.
7 --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 1.05 p.m.
9 JUDGE FLUEGGE: We tried to have a shorter break but we were not
10 successful because of technical problems again.
11 Mr. Tolimir, please continue.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. In order
13 to start with the footage right away, we can look at it right away, we
14 don't need to lay down the foundation, and then we can move to questions.
15 If we can look at P991 from 46.24 to 48, and if the witness can carefully
16 look at the footage, pay attention to what the speakers are saying.
17 Yesterday we actually had the transcript of this footage and we went over
18 it. Thank you.
19 [Video-clip played]
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
22 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. Boering, are you able to say if this is the first meeting
24 that you and Mr. Karremans had with General Mladic? Thank you.
25 A. Yes. This was the first meeting with General Mladic.
Page 9082
1 Q. Can you remember when the meeting was held, what time?
2 A. This meeting was on 11 July, I believe in the course of the
3 afternoon, at Fontana.
4 Q. Thank you. Was this a meeting that was requested by General
5 Mladic or by General Karremans? Thank you.
6 A. You asked me this question yesterday several times, and then
7 I indicated that at this time I don't clearly remember that. In any
8 case, there was some contact with Petar, the interpreter present in
9 Bratunac, about this meeting. I thought about it some more last night.
10 Conceivably we sought contact via Petar and, through this interpreter,
11 this proposal at this time was made. So I think it was a combined event,
12 perhaps first at our request and then accepted and subsequently requested
13 by Petar. That's what comes to mind.
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Boering. Yesterday you also said that before this
15 meeting, Colonel Karremans spoke with Nicolai. At this meeting, did he
16 tell General Mladic what orders he received from General Nicolai and the
17 command, as he put it, for Bosnia-Herzegovina? Thank you. The UNPROFOR
18 command for Bosnia-Herzegovina. Thank you.
19 A. Yes. He indicated, as conveyed in this video, that the intention
20 was to leave the enclave, both DutchBat and let's call them the refugees.
21 And the objective was to bring this about in the most appropriate
22 possible way.
23 Q. Thank you. In order to resolve this situation at the Potocari
24 base, did you need the help of the Army of Republika Srpska to which you
25 were directed by General Nicolai, according to what Karremans said?
Page 9083
1 A. I assume we did.
2 Q. Thank you. Since we covered this topic in detail yesterday, I'm
3 not going to go back to it. Can we now go back to your statement. This
4 is page 4, paragraph 6, and this is the 65 ter number 06703.
5 We will be looking at your statement now, the 65 ter number
6 06703. I would like to look at page 4, please, paragraph 6. And we can
7 see that sixth paragraph in the Serbian. Can we also see it in the
8 English, please. This is page 5 in the English. Thank you, Aleksandar.
9 This is page 5, paragraph 2. You say, line 4, I'm quoting. Line 4:
10 "During this night, Karremans and I held talks with the Muslims.
11 Karremans promised the Muslims air support on that occasion. I suspect
12 that the Muslim fighters decided that night that their position was
13 untenable and that they would have to flee."
14 My question is: Were you with -- were you alone with Colonel
15 Karremans during these talks or were there any other persons who attended
16 this meeting with the Muslims? Thank you.
17 A. There were other people present, both from the Muslim side and
18 for DutchBat. If I remember correctly, Sergeant Major Rave was also
19 present.
20 Q. My next question is: Who was interpreting for you during this
21 conversation that you had with the Muslims? Who translated what
22 Mr. Karremans was saying? Thank you.
23 A. I suspect that it was Hasan, the interpreter who was ordinarily
24 present in the PTT building. I can't think of his surname just now, but
25 he's known.
Page 9084
1 Q. Thank you. Are you able to remember what Mr. Karremans told the
2 Muslims that night in your presence and the presence of the interpreter
3 Hasan Nuhanovic? Thank you.
4 A. Well, I remember something about a commitment of massive air
5 support, if the attack on the enclave continued by the VRS or, in fact,
6 took place on the part of the VRS, and that would happen -- it was
7 supposed to happen in the early morning hours, and that would be a
8 massive attack, and people would need to take care for their -- to watch
9 their own safety.
10 Q. When you said "people," did you mean Muslims, the Muslims had to
11 take care of their own security, their own safety?
12 A. When I say "safety," I mean that you need to try to avoid getting
13 hit by bombs that drop. And that held true both for our own DutchBat
14 members as for the Muslims.
15 Q. Thank you. Was the zone that needed to be evacuated indicated
16 for the safety of Muslim members and UNPROFOR?
17 A. Well, I remember that there was an area and there were borders,
18 but the details are not fresh in my memory.
19 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us if you remember if Colonel Karremans
20 spoke about massive bombardment of that area and that sector that he
21 indicated? Thank you.
22 A. Yes. He mentioned that. I think I explained that a few
23 sentences earlier, about massive air support.
24 Q. Thank you. Let's see what the Muslim representative said about
25 that and what this translator said, Hasan Nuhanovic. Can we look at
Page 9085
1 1D137, now, please.
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, are you tendering the OTP statement
3 of this witness, 65 ter 6703? I think you used it already yesterday but
4 I'm not sure if you tendered it.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Yes, we
6 would like to tender it.
7 JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, it will be received as Exhibit
9 D00146. Thank you.
10 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. Mr. Tolimir.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I ask the e-court now to show
12 1D137, please. Sorry, I made a mistake. I actually need D137, without
13 this 1 in front.
14 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
15 Q. While we are waiting for it to appear on the screen, I'm going to
16 say that this is a transcript of a conversation which was shown in a
17 documentary film on Radio Television Serbia, on the 9th of July, 2010. I
18 am reading this text in the second paragraph -- actually, the first
19 paragraph says:
20 "On the 10th of -- on the evening of the 10th of July, a meeting
21 between the Dutch Battalion commander and representatives of the 28th
22 Division was held in the post office building in Srebrenica. Hakija
23 Meholjic, member of the Srebrenica War Presidency from 1993 to 1995."
24 And now they are quoting the transcript of what was said in that
25 programme:
Page 9086
1 "In the meantime, Karremans arrived requesting a meeting. I told
2 him, five more minutes, so we can first agree on everything ourselves
3 because we have no reason to trust you anymore. We arranged everything,
4 then we received him for a talk and he said that NATO informed him that a
5 death zone has been set around Srebrenica for tomorrow at half past five.
6 Everything that moves on two, four, or a hundred feet, or on a hundred
7 wheels, or on one wheel or on two wheels, will be destroyed, that it will
8 be destroyed."
9 My question is: Do you remember whether Mr. Karremans said this
10 in the way that Hakija Meholjic, the member of the Srebrenica War
11 Presidency, conveys it here?
12 A. I'm not sure whether it was stated literally that way, but the
13 gist corresponds well with what I remember.
14 Q. Thank you. My question is: Did what Mr. Karremans announced
15 actually take place; and if it did not, why did it not?
16 A. Well, it didn't happen en masse, and it didn't take place in the
17 morning but later in the afternoon. And why it didn't happen? Extensive
18 research has been conducted on that, many, many times, but that exceeds
19 my scope.
20 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us what you know about the research that
21 has been conducted into why the air-strikes did not happen? Thank you.
22 A. Well, that could become a very long answer. I derive most of the
23 information from the reports to which you have access as well. Given the
24 time pressure, I don't think it's relevant for me to elaborate on all
25 that off the top of my head.
Page 9087
1 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us whether NATO had a green light to
2 bomb the positions of the Republika Srpska in and around Srebrenica?
3 Thank you.
4 A. I don't have any concrete information for that.
5 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us whether NATO, when it announced that
6 they would conduct air strikes, actually took sides in this conflict
7 between the Muslims and the Serbs in Srebrenica? Thank you.
8 A. I don't think that the actual support that took place was biased.
9 It was a situation where their own troops were dealing with VRS units and
10 these forward air controllers were under fire. So it wasn't bias; it was
11 self-defence.
12 Q. Thank you. Well, does self-defence occur at the point of attack
13 or subsequently? Thank you.
14 A. I don't understand the question. Thank you.
15 Q. Thank you. Since Colonel Karremans announced on the 10th that
16 there would be air-strikes, he announced it on the 10th, that the
17 air-strikes would follow in the early morning hours on the 11th, does
18 this constitute self-defence if it is already announced ahead of time?
19 Or would self-defence actually be considered self-defence if it happened
20 once an attack occurred, or subsequently? Thank you.
21 A. As far as I can remember, Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans did
22 mention on the evening of the 10th that this bombing would take place if
23 ongoing attacks were conducted that constituted attacks. And if you're
24 under attack, you're entitled to defend yourself.
25 Q. Thank you. Let us now look at what the interpreter, Hasan
Page 9088
1 Nuhanovic, who interpreted all that, let us hear what he had to say.
2 "The Serbian side was given an ultimatum to withdraw by 0600
3 hours to their starting positions, in other words Zeleni Jadar, to go
4 back six kilometres or they would be bombarded at 0600 hours."
5 He says that "the number of aircraft that will come for
6 air-strikes, they told me, would be between 40 and 70. That is what was
7 -- what has been said."
8 Now, this is what Hasan Nuhanovic said during the interview and
9 this programme of the 10th of July, 2010. So my question is who was it
10 who gave this green light for the bombing?
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the accused please
12 repeat his question. We did not understand him.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, the interpreters asked to repeat the
14 question. I only see the question, "So my question is who was it who
15 gave this green light for the bombing?" Was that your question?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. My question was who
17 issued the ultimatum to the -- to Republika Srpska; was it NATO or the
18 UNPROFOR? Thank you.
19 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Boering.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not aware of who issued the
21 ultimatum.
22 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Thank you. Did Mr. Karremans mention this ultimatum of by 0600
24 hours? Thank you.
25 A. Well, let me put it as follows: After this meeting,
Page 9089
1 Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans left for Potocari while I remained behind in
2 Srebrenica. So what happened was that in Potocari, after
3 Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans returned, was not -- I didn't observe that,
4 so I don't know.
5 Q. Thank you. The UNPROFOR or NATO, by issuing an ultimatum to one
6 of the warring parties, would that constitute taking sides, and would
7 that shift the balance of forces? Thank you.
8 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I think the witness has explained
9 his position very clearly. He spoke about self-defence. You should not
10 repeat the question. We have not so much time. We are approaching the
11 end of today's hearing.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I would
13 now like the witness to be shown again the statement D14, the witness
14 statement that was 65 ter 60 -- 6703. What we would like to see is
15 paragraph 7.
16 JUDGE FLUEGGE: This is D146.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Could we
18 then please have D146 in e-court. And I would like the witness to be
19 shown paragraph 6, on page 4 in Serbian and page 5 in English.
20 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Paragraph 7 in Serbian, in the first line, the last three words:
22 "The captain out there had received information, a message that
23 we had to establish definitively where the Serbs were located within the
24 enclave. Only after the presence of Serbian fighters had been definitely
25 confirmed and after positive identification of their presence and use of
Page 9090
1 weapons would air support be given."
2 My question is this: Who issued this assignment to Captain
3 Groen, and why did they have to know the exact location of the Serbs, and
4 did they have to engage them in order for air support to follow? Thank
5 you.
6 A. I assume that this assignment was issued by Captain Groen or by
7 Karremans. So there had to be an actual threat to be allowed to issue
8 air support.
9 Q. Thank you. Did UNPROFOR soldiers, in keeping with this request
10 from Captain Groen, have to locate the tanks of the VRS, the Republika
11 Srpska army, and establish at the time that those tanks were actually
12 firing in order for the air support to come? Thank you.
13 A. Yes. I think you could express it that way.
14 Q. Thank you. During the examination-in-chief you said that you
15 couldn't recall the name of the lieutenant who was in charge of forward
16 air controllers of UNPROFOR. Could you tell us, please, was it
17 Lieutenant Egbers who was in charge of forward air control of UNPROFOR,
18 and did he subsequently take any action in order to locate the targets of
19 Republika Srpska to be able to guide the NATO air-strikes? Thank you.
20 A. Well, the actual execution of forward air controls was certainly
21 not performed by Lieutenant Egbers. He may have provided instructions,
22 but that was not observed by me. It was outside my field of observation.
23 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, can you tell us the time you will
24 need for concluding your cross-examination?
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. We will conclude it
Page 9091
1 within the time frame that you tell us we have, but I would just like to
2 remind this witness that he was present there.
3 Now, let's take a look at --
4 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Stop. We are at the end of today's hearing and
5 now I'm asking you how much time you need to conclude your
6 cross-examination. That's a question to you. We are at the end of
7 today's hearing.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. If you
9 allow me, I would have an additional four to five questions, and I should
10 be able to conclude my cross-examination by 1400. Thank you.
11 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please go ahead. Thank you very much.
12 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Please take a look at line 4, paragraph 7, of your statement, on
14 page 4 that we have before us. And you say there the following:
15 "I went to confer again with a few Muslim administrators who
16 communicated Serb positions to me. Every time DutchBat soldiers went to
17 look at these positions, they were fired upon by the Serbs."
18 Does this indicate that you too were involved in locating Serb
19 targets and that you asked information from Muslim fighters to that
20 effect? Thank you.
21 A. I did indeed do this, so in my view, that happened earlier, not
22 on that day. In my view, it took place the day before. So I suspect
23 that it happened before our meeting where Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans
24 mentioned the massive air support.
25 Q. Thank you. You begin this paragraph with the words "the next
Page 9092
1 day," and that is why I asked you whether this was on the 11th, on the
2 day when the positions of the VRS were under air-strikes.
3 A. My impression is that this request or activity on my part with
4 respect to the Muslims so that they could invoke the smoking-gun
5 principle was on the previous day or on the day that we had that meeting
6 in the evening with Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans. So it was probably on
7 the 9th, I think.
8 Q. Thank you. Well, was my question fairly put, and I only actually
9 posed my question based on what you said there, that it was on the next
10 day that Karremans had talks with the Muslims. Thank you.
11 A. I'm gradually beginning to lose my power of concentration. I'm
12 having trouble understanding this question.
13 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir was referring to the beginning of
14 that paragraph, "The next day there was no air support at the agreed
15 time." And he wants to know the time frame, the subsequent events, when
16 all that happened, especially he was asking you at which day you had the
17 talks with the Muslims together with Karremans. If you remember.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The conversation with the Muslims
19 was in the evening of 9 July, as far as I remember.
20 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Did Karremans then announce NATO air-strikes for the 10th or for
24 the 11th? Thank you.
25 A. Well, it was the next day. If the conversation with the Muslims
Page 9093
1 took place about the massive air support on the 9th, then the previous
2 afternoon or morning was when the conversation took place with the
3 Muslims about the smoking-gun principle, but exact days, it was a
4 succession of events. Because in the morning of the 10th, no air support
5 was forthcoming, my impression is that the enclave fell on the 10th.
6 That's the way I've got it in my mind at this time but my power of
7 concentration is eroding by now.
8 Q. Thank you. I appreciate that, and I will not insist on this any
9 longer, in view of the difficulties you're having, and it could happen to
10 any one of us.
11 Now, since we can no longer discuss matters that you have
12 difficulty recalling at this point in time, let me just ask you quickly
13 whether the assignment that Captain Groen received and forwarded to the
14 air forward controllers, was it -- did it have to be met? In other
15 words, did the tanks have to be found and did they have to be found with
16 the so-called smoking-gun principle, and was that the condition for the
17 air support to follow?
18 A. Well, I don't know.
19 Q. Thank you. We will leave this topic since you don't know. But
20 now could we see P1203. My apologies, P1202. My apologies to e-court.
21 Page 1, P1202.
22 While we are waiting for it to come up, we can see it in the
23 Serbian language and, for the transcript, let me say that this is a
24 document drafted by the command of the Drina Corps on the 2nd of July and
25 forwarded to brigades as an order to prevent Muslim operations, and I
Page 9094
1 will just read paragraph 1:
2 "As part of an all-out offensive against Republika Srpska
3 territory, the enemy has carried out attacks with the limited objective
4 against the DK units. We believe that in the coming period the enemy
5 will intensify offensive activities against the DK area of
6 responsibilities, mainly in the Tuzla-Zvornik and Kladanj-Vlasenica
7 directions with simultaneous activity by the 28th Division forces from
8 the enclaves of Srebrenica and Zepa, in order to cut the DK area of
9 responsibility in two and connect the enclaves with a central part of the
10 territory of former Bosnia-Herzegovina held by Muslim forces."
11 This was information about activities that were carried out at
12 the time in the territory under the control of the army, BH Army.
13 Now, my question is: In view of this and the earlier instance
14 where the Prosecutor said that he was not disputing that, does this mean
15 that it was to be expected to -- that the Republika Srpska army would
16 conduct and take such activities on in order to prevent the offensive
17 activities in those areas where there should be no military activities?
18 Thank you.
19 A. It's possible to take such action. That's one of the options.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Mr. President, we are not requesting any additional time and I've
22 said that I will complete my cross-examination by 2.00, but I would like
23 to address the Trial Chamber with a request that my assistant seek to
24 tender the documents that we wanted to tender earlier via bar table
25 motion, in view of the fact that the Prosecutor was not disputing the
Page 9095
1 facts there and these were documents that have already been admitted in
2 other cases. Thank you.
3 JUDGE FLUEGGE: The Chamber will look forward to receive such a
4 request by the Defence. Can I take it, Mr. Tolimir, that this concludes
5 your cross-examination?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. That is
7 correct. And I would like to thank Mr. Boering and apologise to him for
8 keeping him here under intense questioning over the course of the past
9 two days, and I wish him a merry holiday season, the Christmas season,
10 and I would like to thank him for coming to testify in this case. And
11 I would also like to thank Mr. Thayer for his assistance, and
12 I appreciate everyone's understanding. And I wish a Merry Christmas to
13 all those who celebrate Christmas.
14 JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.
15 Mr. Boering, you will be pleased to hear that now you are free to
16 leave the Tribunal to return to your normal activities and to your home.
17 This is really the end of your testimony in this trial. Thank you very
18 much that you were able to come here and to stay an extended time with us
19 in this courtroom. Thank you again.
20 Are there any matters to raise today by either party? I don't
21 see anybody on his feet.
22 Mr. Boering, I would like to invite you to leave the courtroom,
23 if you wish to do that. It concludes your testimony. Thank you very
24 much again.
25 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.
Page 9096
1 [The witness withdrew]
2 JUDGE FLUEGGE: At this point in time, I would like to express my
3 gratitude and the gratitude of the Chamber for all those who helped us
4 today, especially the Dutch interpreters, but the other interpreters for
5 all the different languages as well. I would like to thank the whole
6 staff: The Court Recorder, the Court Usher, the Court Officer, the
7 officers of the Chamber, the Defence and the Prosecution, for their very
8 good cooperation during the past year. Sometimes we had some problems
9 but I think that was -- we all were able to resolve the problems after
10 they occurred. We are grateful for this good cooperation in the
11 courtroom, and I hope very much that we will be able to continue that way
12 next year.
13 We have a long time ahead in this trial. We are not sitting
14 until the 31st of January, to enable Mr. Tolimir to review the documents,
15 especially the diary of General Mladic. Again I would like to thank
16 everybody and wish everybody a very happy time, good Christmastime, if
17 you're celebrating Christmas, and a Happy New Year. See you next year.
18 Thank you very much. We adjourn and resume on the 31st of January.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.03 p.m.,
20 to be reconvened on Monday, the 31st day of
21 January, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.
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