Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9031

 1                           Thursday, 16 December 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.16 a.m.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning to everybody.  Due to technical

 7     problems here in the courtroom, we have a delayed start today.

 8             Good morning, sir.  Welcome back to the courtroom.  I have to

 9     remind you that the solemn declaration you made yesterday at the

10     beginning of your testimony still applies.

11             And Mr. Tolimir is continuing his cross-examination.

12             Mr. Tolimir.

13                           WITNESS:  PIETER BOERING [Resumed]

14                           {Witness answered through Interpreter]

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir: [Continued]

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Yesterday we stopped when we were explaining the situation that

19     you were explaining in the Bandera Triangle.  I would like to ask you if,

20     on the basis of everything that we said yesterday about the Bandera

21     Triangle, if you were ever there.  Were you ever in the Bandera Triangle?

22        A.   Yes.  I have certainly been there twice; once to try to meet up

23     with Mr. Zulfo, and the second time to try to relieve some colleagues

24     that had been stopped during a patrol.  They had been stopped by Muslims.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Did you manage to reach some kind of agreement with

Page 9032

 1     the Muslims about UNPROFOR-Muslim relations in the Bandera Triangle?

 2     Thank you.

 3        A.   I was not personally able to bring about any agreements.

 4     Mr. Karremans and perhaps higher-ranking officers were working on that.

 5     In any case, after having been detained for two or three days, we were

 6     able to return to our base.  True freedom of movement, however, we did

 7     not have.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now look at D66 in the e-court, please.  Could

 9     the electronic court please show D66.

10             This is a report sent by Naser Oric, the commander of the

11     Srebrenica Brigade, to the command of the 2nd Corps, where he says, in

12     the second line - we can see the document now - he says, in the second

13     line, I quote -- actually, we can start from the first line:

14             "Due to the situation in the Podgaj village on 9th of January

15     1995, of which you were informed in a timely manner, the command of the

16     8th Operations Group has restricted the movement of the UNPROFOR forces

17     in the broader region of Suceska and Podgaj.  At about 1100 hours today

18     the commander of the Dutch Battalion in Srebrenica ordered his patrols to

19     enter the movement restriction area.  In coordination with the commander

20     of the 8th Operations Group respecting the agreement reached with the

21     UNPROFOR liaison officer after the warning was issued not to move in the

22     aforementioned area, the commander of the 281st Eastern Bosnia Light

23     Brigade blocked all UNPROFOR patrols and is still keeping them blocked."

24             Are you able to tell us whether this refers to you as the liaison

25     officer and were you the one who reached this agreement with the

Page 9033

 1     commander of the operations group?  Thank you.

 2        A.   I remember that this situation figured at the start of my period

 3     in the enclave.  At that moment, we had the arrangement of a civil and a

 4     military liaison officer, because there were two of us, and there was a

 5     third person in addition to Mr. Rave and myself.  That person eventually

 6     left.  I think he was more involved in this process.  I was present at

 7     one or two of these discussions.  If I remember correctly, UNMOs were

 8     present as well.  They were also trying to bring about freedom of

 9     movement in that area, and were similarly unsuccessful.  And I believe

10     that in that period somebody from UNPROFOR also tried to visit DutchBat.

11     Whether it truly happened, I think it did, but I can't remember exactly.

12        Q.   My question is:  Did you take part in the talks in order to

13     resolve the problems in the Bandera Triangle?

14        A.   My answer is yes, I was present at some of --

15        Q.   Thank you.  And was an agreement reached between the Muslim army

16     and the UNPROFOR that the UNPROFOR does not enter the Bandera Triangle?

17        A.   As far as I remember, in the subsequent period, UNPROFOR provided

18     indications that we should try to increase freedom of movement, and as a

19     consequence, DutchBat carried out more patrols in that area.  One of the

20     results as a consequence of this was the hostage-taking of that group,

21     and I believe I didn't see the document, but I remember that later

22     indications arrived from UNPROFOR -- UNPROFOR provided indications that

23     these operations should be scaled back and that there shouldn't be

24     extensive patrols in the Bandera Triangle to bring about freedom of

25     movement.  So status quo, restricted freedom of movement, was accepted.

Page 9034

 1        Q.   I would like to tender this document, D66 -- I'm sorry, thank

 2     you, Aleksandar.  It's already been admitted, my assistant has told me.

 3             Are you able to tell us if you had received a written or an oral

 4     order from your superior command no longer to patrol in the Bandera

 5     Triangle?

 6        A.   I didn't see any such written document, nor was I in that line of

 7     command.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now look at 1D362, 1D362.  Thank you.  We are

 9     now looking at 1D362.  We are reading the first paragraph just below the

10     Order.  We don't have a translation, so this is a document by the Army of

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina, its 2nd Corps command from Tuzla, which is sent to

12     the Srebrenica Operations Group, and it's addressed to the commander,

13     Naser Oric.  These are measures in relation to UNPROFOR, that is the

14     heading of the document.  I'm just reading the first paragraph of the

15     order.  Thank you.  I quote:

16             "The command of the Operations Group 8 will provide to the 2nd

17     Corps command a detailed report with the date, time, place and type of

18     impermissible activities by the Dutch Battalion of the UN in the area of

19     responsibility of the 281st Light Mountain Brigade/Operations Group 8,

20     Srebrenica."  I end my quote.

21             So my question is:  Are you able to tell us, what are these

22     activities that are not permitted that are referred to in this order?

23        A.   No.  Nothing comes to mind now.  It could have been the patrols.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, you said that was addressed to Naser

25     Oric.  Can you tell me where I can find the name of Naser Oric in this

Page 9035

 1     document?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  If you look in the

 3     right-hand corner, it says "Urgent," and then underneath that, it says

 4     "OG 8, for the commander."  He was the commander of Operations Group 8.

 5     Thank you.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is the conclusion you are drawing from this

 7     document, but the name is not written here; is that correct?  Just for

 8     the sake of the record.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  For the

10     transcript, I am saying that it is addressed to the commander of

11     Operations Group 8.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer?

13             MR. THAYER:  And Mr. President, there is no dispute from the

14     Prosecution that Naser Oric was indeed the commander.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Just wanted to have it clear on the record.

16     Please continue.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   My question, on the basis of your previous answer, is:  Did

20     UNPROFOR take any kind of impermissible activity in the Bandera Triangle?

21     Thank you.

22        A.   I don't remember that.

23        Q.   Thank you.  My next question is:  As members of UNPROFOR, were

24     you unwanted or people non grata in the Bandera Triangle?

25        A.   There was an area where we were not welcome.

Page 9036

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we look at -- can

 2     we have this document 1D362 admitted, please?  Aleksandar, thank you.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Can the witness now look at 13 -- actually, 1D366.  Can we show

 5     that document to the witness.  Thank you.  That is a document of the army

 6     of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, by the command of the 2nd Corps,

 7     which was sent to deputy -- to assistant commanders for security of

 8     Operations Group 8 and it relates to movements by UNPROFOR members.  I'm

 9     going to read the second paragraph.  I quote:

10             "In order to prevent these actions and occurrences --" meaning

11     the movements of UNPROFOR -- "and for the purpose of protecting the units

12     of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the population, special purpose

13     production, and other elements important for the defence of the country,

14     it is necessary that all visits by members of UNPROFOR and other

15     international foreign institutions and organisations to units and members

16     of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina be announced via the liaison officers

17     at the corps command and that they be announced in advance."

18             My question, on the basis of what I read, is this:  Are you able

19     to tell us, what is this special purpose production that they are

20     protecting and what is its relevance to the Bandera Triangle?  I didn't

21     come across any references to that.  Thank you.

22        A.   I don't have any additional information about that.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Since you are being requested here to announce in

24     advance each of your visits, and it says here because of special purpose

25     production and other elements important for the defence of the country,

Page 9037

 1     they are protecting those, and that's why they say it is necessary that

 2     all visits by members of UNPROFOR and other international organisations,

 3     and so on and so forth, be announced in advance.  Please, did UNPROFOR

 4     have any information that something was being produced or manufactured in

 5     the Bandera Triangle, such as weaponry or equipment?  Thank you.

 6        A.   No.  I don't have any information about that.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer?

 8             MR. THAYER:  Just an inquiry, Mr. President, because we don't

 9     have a translation of this document.  I'm just wondering if somebody can

10     tell us whether this document refers to the Bandera Triangle in

11     particular or at all or whether it's just a general document pertaining

12     to the entire enclave.  I note that the date appears to be 4 January.  We

13     have been dealing with the Bandera Triangle, but I just can't tell

14     whether this document actually deals with the Bandera Triangle itself

15     only, partially, not at all, or just the enclave.  I don't know if the

16     Defence has a position on that or whether they can tell us, based on

17     their review of the document, since we don't have a translation.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Chamber is in the same position.  We don't

19     know all the background and the content of this document.  The witness is

20     not able to give us additional information.  What is it about,

21     Mr. Tolimir?

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  In the

23     beginning, I did say who wrote the document and that the document is

24     titled, "Movement of members of the UNPROFOR, instruction, addressed to."

25     This document refers to UNPROFOR, who is being banned from going to areas

Page 9038

 1     where special purpose production and other elements important for the

 2     defence of the country are being protected.  And I'm asking the witness

 3     if he knows whether something was being manufactured there.

 4             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   This question is, sir, are you able to explain to the Trial

 6     Chamber what this special purpose production is?

 7        A.   Is this a question to me or is it an explanation to the Judge?

 8     I thought it was the latter.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  No, it is a question for you, Mr. Boering.  Are

10     you able to explain to the Trial Chamber what this special purpose

11     production is?  That was the question for you.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I have no idea.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Thank you.  Witness, is this some kind of a special purpose

15     production?  Because it's called "special purpose production."  Thank

16     you.

17        A.   I have no idea.

18        Q.   Thank you.  What is the name of military production, any kind of

19     production; materiel, equipment, military equipment, used for this kind

20     of production in NATO countries, including Holland?

21        A.   Do you mean in a factory?

22        Q.   Anywhere.  It can be out in an open area as well.  Anywhere.

23     Thank you.

24        A.   As far as I know, the patrols that took place throughout the

25     Srebrenica enclave did not discover any weapons-producing facilities.

Page 9039

 1     And, of course, one of their tasks was to seek out any facilities where

 2     such items could be produced inside a building or outside.  One problem

 3     that we encountered in ascertaining where activities were being performed

 4     in buildings was that in house searches we had to be assisted by the

 5     police, so our mandate did not provide us with the full latitude to

 6     conduct house searches everywhere.

 7        Q.   In view of this answer of yours, were you able to discover a

 8     weapons-producing facility in the Bandera Triangle if you were restricted

 9     from moving in that area?  Thank you.

10        A.   It was not possible.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now look at the third paragraph.

12             You see it in front of you.  I'm going to read it.  It says:

13             "The corps command and the UNPROFOR liaison officer who is

14     stationed at that location needs to coordinate positions about the

15     procedure of announcing the movements and control by teams, crews,

16     patrols, and others from the UNPROFOR force, with the commands of the

17     brigades, battalions, and defence lines of the Army of Bosnia and

18     Herzegovina, and it's required that the movement of UNPROFOR is

19     channelled and reduced to as few patrols as possible in places where they

20     could possibly observe and gather intelligence data."

21             So were you obliged, pursuant to this order, to announce in

22     advance the movements of your patrols in these areas that were under the

23     control of the Muslim army?  Thank you.

24        A.   I don't remember that with respect to the actual DutchBat

25     patrols.  I do remember that the UNMOs, when they actually wanted to

Page 9040

 1     enter the Bandera Triangle or that area, that they would submit a plan in

 2     advance and request permission.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Whose permission did they ask for, and was the

 4     Bandera Triangle a militarised or a demilitarised zone?  Thank you.

 5        A.   That permission was requested, if I remember correctly, at the

 6     weekly meetings we had with Naser Oric or Ramiz, his deputy, or Ekrem,

 7     the third man.  The schedule of the week ahead was reviewed there, and

 8     whether the Bandera Triangle was militarised or demilitarised, as far as

 9     we could tell from outside, it was unclear to me.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Since the transcript is not written in the best

11     possible way, would you kindly repeat whether the Bandera Triangle was a

12     militarised or a demilitarised zone.  Thank you.

13        A.   We had no view of what actually took place in that area, but we

14     didn't see any operations being performed from outside of that area.  We

15     couldn't see any such operations being performed with great military

16     prowess, so it could have been a demilitarised area.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you.  Since you were obliged to announce your

18     movement as members of UNPROFOR to military forces within that zone, and

19     in view of the fact that they controlled your movement, were you then

20     able to control them or to monitor them if you announced your movement a

21     week ahead?  Thank you.

22        A.   That was not the case.  And as I've indicated earlier today, the

23     battalion leadership had decided to increase the patrols later in

24     January.

25        Q.   Thank you.  As liaison officer, if you had to submit a report to

Page 9041

 1     the UNPROFOR command in Tuzla or Sarajevo and report to them whether that

 2     zone was militarised or demilitarised based on what you could observe,

 3     what would you have reported?

 4        A.   I did not submit any reports to Tuzla or Sarajevo as liaison

 5     officer.  Karremans did.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Were you Karremans' adviser; and what would you have

 7     advised him to report about whether Srebrenica was a militarised --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Whether Bandera

 9     Triangle ...

10             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   -- was a militarised or a demilitarised zone?  Thank you.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would have advised him to try to

13     get some insight in the Bandera Triangle and to carry out patrols there

14     and to include that in the negotiations toward Tuzla and Sarajevo.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you.  As this document has not been translated,

17     I will read out the last three lines in the fourth paragraph, and they

18     talk about controls on separation lines.  And it says:

19             "Military police and the Ministry of the Interior will carry out

20     visual controls and ask for IDs of all persons from the UN complement."

21             Now, tell us, please, what was your reaction to this decision

22     taken by the 2nd Corps?

23        A.   Well, I have no knowledge of this.  I don't know whether that

24     took place.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Did you ever leave that zone?  Did you exit or enter

Page 9042

 1     it?  And were you then, on those occasions, asked for your IDs by the MUP

 2     or Ministry of the Interior police, or the military police?  So when you

 3     went out of or came into the demilitarised zone.

 4        A.   I can't remember ever presenting an ID.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  I'm running out of time, but could you please just

 6     answer the following question:  If the command of the operations group

 7     Srebrenica - and Srebrenica was a demilitarised zone - actually worked or

 8     dictated the relationship within -- with the UNPROFOR within the

 9     demilitarised zone, could then that zone be considered demilitarised or

10     were you actually under the control of the organs within -- the military

11     organs within the so-called demilitarised zone?

12        A.   All I remember is the restricted freedom of movement in the

13     Bandera Triangle, and controls preventing them from moving ahead at a

14     certain point.  I don't have that impression and nothing comes to mind.

15        Q.   Thank you.  We cannot dwell on this anymore.

16             Can you just tell us, if you know, whether there was an agreement

17     in place between the UNPROFOR and the BH Army on non-entry of the

18     UNPROFOR into the Bandera Triangle?

19        A.   As I've said earlier today, after we stepped up the patrols later

20     on in January and were blocked and taken hostage, I believe that

21     subsequent to that, UNPROFOR issued instructions to accept the Bandera

22     Triangle and its restricted freedom of movement for us.  I did not see

23     any documents to that effect.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know the observer, who was called Kingori,

25     and was he in Srebrenica?

Page 9043

 1        A.   Yes, I remember him, and that was in Srebrenica.  He was an UNMO.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer?

 3             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, just before we move to the next

 4     topic, it may have gotten buried in some of the questions, but I believe

 5     General Tolimir had tendered 1D362, which was the document before the one

 6     he just used, and I don't know if he intended to tender 366, which is the

 7     one that he just finished up with.  I do recall him tendering 362, but

 8     then he rolled right into another question so it may have gotten buried

 9     somewhere.  So just before we move any further, just so there is no

10     confusion.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for this reminder.  I was

12     waiting for tendering the current document by Mr. Tolimir.  Are you

13     tendering it?  The Chamber has some concern --

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Mr. President.  We

15     would like to tender it.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Chamber is not in the position to admit these

17     two documents into evidence.  We don't know anything about the content.

18     It is not only a translation issue.  This witness couldn't say anything

19     about the content.  He doesn't know anything.  He several times repeated,

20     "I have no idea about it."  And the questions you put in relation to

21     these two documents to the witness were not answered in a way that we can

22     receive these two documents into evidence.  You may tender them with

23     another witness, use them with another witness, but in that way we only

24     can mark them for identification but not admit into evidence.

25             They will be marked for identification.

Page 9044

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour, document 1D00362 shall be

 2     marked for identification as D00141, while document 1D00366 shall be

 3     marked for identification as D00142.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  This

 6     document, in its third paragraph, and I've read this out to the witness,

 7     it says that the corps command, would coordinate with the liaison officer

 8     of UNPROFOR, and this man was a member of the UNPROFOR, and he should be

 9     able to testify about this, and I have just heard him say that he had

10     received an order from the command in Sarajevo not to go to Bandera

11     Triangle, and I don't see why this document would not be or cannot be

12     admitted into the evidence, because this witness is able to testify about

13     it.  He was a liaison officer and he was the person through whom actually

14     all these arrangements about movements within the zone were done.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm very sorry, I have to interrupt you.  The

16     Chamber has ruled on that.  Please carry on.  No discussion.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I understand.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Witness, sir -- could we please see P996, the so-called Kingori

20     diaries.  And could we pull up page 3 in e-court.  Thank you.  And

21     I thank Aleksandar.  You can see it on the screen before you now.  And

22     that's the fourth line, where Mr. Kingori says, "Control of movement

23     towards Zepa (Carter agreement)."  Now, please tell us what you know

24     about the Carter agreement.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer?

Page 9045

 1             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, obviously we have no objection to the

 2     use of this document or any continued questioning along this line.  I'd

 3     just ask perhaps if the witness could be given either an opportunity to

 4     at least have a moment to look at the document or have it placed in some

 5     kind of context for him, either by date or topic, just so we have -- or

 6     the witness has some idea what -- what this particular page of this

 7     journal reflects.  That's all I'm asking for.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  That would be helpful indeed.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  To assist the witness in order to give him -- in

11     order to give him the opportunity to answer questions.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We've had Mr. Kingori

13     as a witness here, and when asked why entry into Bandera Triangle was

14     banned, and who had made the decision and on whose decision it was done,

15     he answered that this was a way in which the Muslims protected people

16     from leaving to -- from Srebrenica to Zepa, and then he mentioned the

17     Carter agreement.  And my question for you is:  What do you know about

18     the Carter agreement?

19        A.   Well, at this time, nothing comes to mind about the Carter

20     agreement.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Can -- does any other agreement come to mind?  Can

22     you recall any other agreement which regulated the UNPROFOR issue and its

23     movement within the Bandera Triangle and movement from Srebrenica towards

24     Zepa?  Thank you.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer?

Page 9046

 1             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, this is not a huge issue but

 2     apparently it's an important issue to General Tolimir.  I think he needs

 3     to be very careful when he's characterising another witness's testimony

 4     when he's examining a witness currently, and I think if we look at the

 5     record, it's clear that Colonel Kingori never connected the Bandera

 6     Triangle to the activities that are listed here on this document.

 7     I think the Trial Chamber will remember Colonel Kingori talking about OP

 8     Kilo and an OP in the south of the enclave, but he was careful to

 9     distinguish the Bandera Triangle.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer --

11             MR. THAYER:  Sorry, and I won't go any further, but there is

12     mischaracterisation of the prior testimony that I think we need to be

13     careful about.  That's all I'm saying.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer, you may deal with that in

15     re-examination.  The question was quite clear:  Can you recall any other

16     agreement which regulated the UNPROFOR issue and its movement within the

17     Bandera Triangle and movement from Srebrenica towards Zepa?  This is a

18     clear question.  The witness should answer that.  If you are able to

19     answer that, please give us the answer.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know nothing about agreements

21     regarding the Bandera Triangle.  As for discussions about movement

22     between Srebrenica and Zepa, I remember that there were discussions about

23     that, especially concerning smuggling operations, and that DutchBat tried

24     to get more insight into that and indicated that they would be moving

25     observation posts to improve their insight into that, and that gave rise

Page 9047

 1     to tensions with the Muslim leadership, who did not agree with the

 2     location of the new observation posts.  That's what I remember.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Thank you.  As Mr. Thayer, the Prosecutor, says that Kingori

 5     never mentioned control of movement, would you please read out the line,

 6     line 4, and read what it says in brackets for transcript purposes.  Would

 7     you please read it out.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The left side of the screen.  I think Mr. Tolimir

 9     is referring to the fourth bullet point.  Do you see that?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean, "Control of movement to

11     Zepa, (Carter agreement)"?

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Kingori spoke about that during his evidence, and

14     I just want to point out that this document has already been admitted

15     into evidence, and I thank Aleksandar for reminding me of that.  Thank

16     you as well.

17             As for this illicit activities of the Muslims and the protection

18     of the Muslims and the ban on movements of patrols, could we -- UNPROFOR

19     patrols, could we now please show the witness document 65 ter 0696.

20     That's a document produced by the BH Army, a report sent from Srebrenica

21     on the 28th of April 1995, to the General Staff of the BH Army,

22     personally to Brigadier General Enver Hadzihasanovic.  And I will repeat,

23     while we wait for the document to show up, 65 ter 06696.  65 ter 06696,

24     thank you.

25             Thank you.  Now we see the document in both versions, and I will

Page 9048

 1     read out the first paragraph, and I quote:

 2             "On the 27th of April, 1995, the command of the Dutch Battalion

 3     in Srebrenica began carrying out engineering work in order to set up an

 4     observation post in the Lozina village sector on their own -- of their

 5     own will.  They made the decision to do so on their own.  The setting up

 6     of an observation post in this area creates the preconditions for

 7     controlling the Srebrenica-Zepa corridor [road] which directly impedes

 8     the safety and secrecy of the transport of materiel and technical

 9     equipment which is delivered to Srebrenica in the customary manner."

10             Please tell us, can you recall these activities of April?

11     Because you were a liaison officer at the time.  And what is this exactly

12     about?  What does this concern?  Thank you.

13        A.   I remember them.  They related to an effort by DutchBat to deploy

14     more observation posts to have a clearer view of what was happening

15     around the enclave, and this was part of a plan to improve the view of

16     what was happening both within and outside the enclave.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Were you prohibited from stationing or setting up a

18     check-point in that sector, the sector of Lozina village?  Thank you.

19        A.   I was not present at all discussions about this because I had

20     other duties as well, but I remember that the Muslims resisted, they

21     objected, and exactly how setting up these new observation posts were

22     negotiated, whether the location was adjusted as a compromise, I don't

23     remember that.  But I believe that new observation posts were placed in

24     that area.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us what it was called, this observation

Page 9049

 1     post in the Lozina sector?  Thank you.

 2        A.   If I remember correctly, that was Observation Post Kilo.  It may

 3     have initially served as a temporary post, given the lack of clarity

 4     between both parties.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Do you mean -- when you say "the parties," do you

 6     mean the BH Army and UNPROFOR or do you mean the warring parties?  Thank

 7     you.

 8        A.   What I mean by that is between UNPROFOR and DutchBat or, rather,

 9     DutchBat and the Muslim authorities, whether these were, in fact,

10     military people or a combination including the mayor of the enclave,

11     I think it was a combination.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'm going to read paragraph 2, even though

13     I thought I wouldn't.

14             "UNPROFOR representatives do not accept our interpretation of the

15     agreement on the complete cessation of hostilities reached between

16     representatives of the army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the

17     aggressor.  In view of such a state of affairs, the liaison officer of

18     the 28th Army Division Srebrenica requested an urgent meeting with

19     representatives of the Dutch Battalion command.  He met them twice on

20     28th of April, 1995, at 10 and 1600 hours, when he attempted invoking

21     documents of the General Staff of the army of the Republic of

22     Bosnia-Herzegovina and the 2nd Corps command in Tuzla to make it clear to

23     them that the setting up of a new observation post was impermissible

24     without a previous proposal to do so by the joint regional commission

25     comprising representatives of UNPROFOR and the 28th Division commands,

Page 9050

 1     which also has to be approved by the joint central commission."

 2             My question is:  The problem of weapons smuggling from one

 3     enclave to another, from one demilitarised zone into another, should that

 4     have been resolved in the manner proposed in this document at a joint

 5     meeting between the UNPROFOR representative and the command of the

 6     Division whose weapons were being smuggled?  Thank you.

 7        A.   Setting up these observation posts related to smuggling in

 8     general, including supplies.  It also related to safety, having a view of

 9     what was happening outside the enclave.  It didn't target smuggling

10     alone; it was a combination of things.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  For the sake of the record, Mr. Tolimir has mixed

12     two parts of this document while reading from it.  He started with

13     paragraph 2 of the document and then he moved to paragraph 1.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  That was the interpreter's

15     error because we were not sure where Mr. Tolimir was reading from.  We

16     apologise.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  That clarifies the

18     situation.  And Mr. Tolimir was reading very fast, and it's very

19     difficult when you are reading so fast to catch everything for the

20     interpreters.  Please carry on.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I am going to repeat

22     the first paragraph that I read as the first one so that the interpreters

23     could put it into the transcript.  I quote, the very beginning of the

24     document:

25             "On the 27th of April, 1995, the command of the UNPROFOR Dutch

Page 9051

 1     Battalion in Srebrenica began carrying out engineering work in order to

 2     set up an observation post in the Lozina village sector.  They made the

 3     decision to do so on their own.  The setting up of an observation post in

 4     this area creates the preconditions for controlling the Srebrenica-Zepa

 5     corridor [road] and vice versa, which directly impedes the safety and

 6     secrecy of the transport of materiel and technical equipment which is

 7     delivered to Srebrenica in the customary manner."

 8             That was the first paragraph of the report that was sent to the

 9     Chief of the General Staff of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina from

10     Srebrenica.

11             I apologise for reading fast, and I thank the Presiding Judge for

12     helping me to put this correctly into the transcript.  Thank you.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   My question is:  As representatives of UNPROFOR, were you

15     duty-bound to inform the Armija where you would set up your observation

16     post?  And did you have the right to monitor the roads to check if there

17     was any smuggling activity there; for example, the Srebrenica-Zepa road?

18        A.   Yes.  At DutchBat we assumed that we had that right.  That's why

19     we did it.

20        Q.   Thank you.  The activities of the Bosnia-Herzegovina army in

21     preventing UNPROFOR from doing its job, were they illegal or were they in

22     line with the demilitarisation agreement?  Thank you.

23        A.   Well, there was an attempt to keep those smuggling routes open.

24     It was an attempt.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Boering, this was not the question.  Were

Page 9052

 1     they illegal or were they in line with the demilitarisation agreement?

 2     That was the question.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Thank you to the witness.  My question is:  Is it clearly stated

 8     in this report that the Srebrenica-Zepa road that passes through the

 9     village of Lozina is used for the passage of materiel, technical

10     equipment, and weapons that are being sent from Zepa to Srebrenica?

11        A.   Yes.  That's what it says.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now look at paragraph 3 of this document in

13     the Serbian.  This is the last one that we are looking at, on page 1.  In

14     the English, this is also the last paragraph -- actually, it's on page 2

15     in the English.  First paragraph on page 2.  Thank you.  I quote --

16     you've already seen it.  It's the last paragraph.

17              "For our part we want to stress that the setting up of an

18     UNPROFOR observation post in this locality would practically block the

19     Srebrenica-Zepa corridor and prevent the transport of materiel and

20     technical equipment arriving from Zepa to Srebrenica.  Consequently, we

21     need your instructions and suggestions on how to resolve this problem."

22             My question is:  Was -- were you prevented or banned from setting

23     up an observation post in the village of Loznica in order to prevent the

24     flow of materiel and equipment and weapons from continuing -- which was

25     supposed to be part of your duties?

Page 9053

 1        A.   I remember that DutchBat gave this matter a lot of thought.  As

 2     for whether an observation post was, in fact, set up in that area, in

 3     those immediate surroundings, does not come to mind at this time.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you.  Actually, it's already been admitted as a

 5     Prosecution exhibit so I withdraw what I was going to say.  The document

 6     has already been admitted.

 7             Can we now look at the reply by the command of the 2nd Corps to

 8     this question.  Can we look at 65 ter 06700.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, are you tendering the last document?

10     It was admitted yesterday as a P document and it will be part of the

11     internal memorandum of the Registry.  Please carry on and put a question

12     to the witness, please.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we now show the

14     witness 65 ter 06700.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   We can see it on the screen.  This is a document of the 2nd Corps

17     of the army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, addressed to the

18     command of the 28th Division of the land army, and that relates to the

19     cessation of construction activities on the UN observation post.  Can we

20     look at paragraph marked with the number 1 of that order.  I quote:

21             "1.  The 28th Army Division command, in cooperation with the

22     Srebrenica municipal civilian structures, shall undertake all measures

23     not to allow further construction work on the UNPROFOR observation post

24     in the Soline [sic] village sector.

25             "2.  In all contacts with the representatives of the Dutch

Page 9054

 1     Battalion, we shall consistently adhere to the position that the location

 2     of observation posts, locations of observation posts, were agreed on at

 3     the level of the General Staff of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the

 4     UNPROFOR B and H command at the signing of the agreement on the

 5     demilitarisation of Srebrenica and Zepa and that any change in that

 6     respect must be verified at the same level."

 7             Thank you.  I'm finished with the quote.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer?

 9             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, just a correction for the record.  At

10     page 23, line 10, what I think I heard through my earphones was Soline.

11     It didn't make it into the transcript but I think we can all agree that

12     what's in the document from which General Tolimir was reading was the

13     village of Lozina, which we've heard reference to.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The accused said Soline.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I thank you Mr. Thayer.  My

16     question is -- actually I meant to say the village of Lozina.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   My question is:  Do you know if the UNPROFOR and the UNPROFOR

19     command in Zepa agreed with the Main Staff of the Bosnia-Herzegovina army

20     and the units in the Srebrenica demilitarised zone about the places where

21     they could set up observation posts and the places where they could not?

22     Thank you.

23        A.   No.  That was not known by me.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I think it's break time.  We are

25     over time already.  We need the first break now and we will resume five

Page 9055

 1     minutes past 11.00.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

 3                           --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Tolimir.  Please carry on.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Boering, has your command in Tuzla or Sarajevo advised you as

 8     the UNPROFOR command in Srebrenica that you were not to continue building

 9     up the observation post in Lozina village?  Thank you.

10        A.   I know nothing about that.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Was this observation post ever established in Lozina

12     village?  Thank you.

13        A.   If I delve into my memory, I believe that there was a temporary

14     post in the area.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Can you explain to the Trial Chamber what it means,

16     what "temporary" means.

17        A.   It's a post consisting of a vehicle and manpower positioned there

18     for a period, for example, a week, and is not intended to remain there

19     permanently.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Were you obliged to announce to the Muslims in every

21     particular instance that you were to go to the Lozina village to carry

22     out these searches or checks, to check whether the materiel that was not,

23     in fact, permitted to pass through be transported down that road?  Thank

24     you.

25        A.   I don't remember any specific procedure for that.

Page 9056

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Can we show the witness in e-court D65 -- that was

 2     marked by Mr. Franken -- to assist the witness in answering my questions.

 3     Thank you.  Thank you.

 4             Now, you can see this map.  Can you please show us where the

 5     observation post was at Lozina village, and was it the observation post

 6     that you started constructing or the one that was actually shut down

 7     after it was prohibited by the Muslim army?

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, are you asking the witness to mark

 9     it on this map?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Perhaps

11     the witness can tell us which observation post was set up there from

12     which they had control over the village of Lozina.  Thank you.  And if

13     possible, perhaps the witness can mark it on the map.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  With the assistance of the Court Usher, please.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's been a while.  It was

16     somewhere here in the southern section.  [Marks]

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell us, on this stretch of seven

19     kilometres of either side of the road that went from Zepa through Lozina

20     to Srebrenica, was there a check-point on that stretch?  Thank you.

21        A.   On the road from Srebrenica to Zepa, so outside the enclave in

22     the direction of Zepa, we did not have a DutchBat check-point.

23     Conceivably, there was a Muslim check-point.  I don't know.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Was that in Lozina village?  Thank you.

25        A.   I was not in that area, so I haven't the foggiest idea of that.

Page 9057

 1     In this specific area, and let's say the subject matter of this

 2     check-point, my involvement was peripheral.  I was certainly not the main

 3     operator aware of all the ins and outs.  This was more the area of

 4     Franken and Karremans, and the company's commander of the actual area.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Since you don't know anything about that, I will not

 6     insist.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see 65 ter 065701 [as

 8     interpreted].  And I would like to tender this document into evidence.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This marked map will be received as an exhibit.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  As D00143, Your Honours.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, can you please repeat the 65 ter

12     number.  I'm not sure if that is correct.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I wanted 06701.  06701.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I was told there was a problem with the last

15     document, the marking on the map, that was lost by the Registry.  This is

16     the map D65, and I would like to ask the witness to draw the circle again

17     on this map because it was not saved.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Marks]

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Now it should be saved and

20     received as D143.  Was it fixed now?

21             So we are waiting for 65 ter 6701.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Thank you, we see it before us.  I will now read out what this

24     document deals with.  This is a document from the 2nd Corps command and

25     it is addressed to the command of the 28th Division, and it says that

Page 9058

 1     instructions are requested for further action in connection with

 2     UNPROFOR's intention to set up an observation post in Srebrenica.  And

 3     this relates to Lozina.  And I will only read out the first paragraph and

 4     see what the corps has to say about this.  And I quote:

 5             "1.  The assertion made by UNPROFOR in Srebrenica that de jure it

 6     has unrestricted freedom of movement and can choose the sites for OS on

 7     the territory of the Srebrenica demilitarised zone is accurate.

 8     Agreement on the demilitarisation of Srebrenica and Zepa of 8 May 1993.

 9             "2.  The assertion of UNPROFOR in Srebrenica is true that, based

10     on the agreement on demilitarisation, they are duty-bound to prevent any

11     attempt of uniformed personnel to military equipment and combat assets to

12     enter --"

13             The second paragraph, while we wait for the English version, I

14     will just read it out.

15             "The assertion of UNPROFOR in Srebrenica is correct; namely, that

16     on the basis of the agreement on demilitarisation, they are required to

17     prevent any entry attempt by persons in uniform, combat equipment, and

18     weapons in demilitarised zone."

19             Could we please scroll the page up a little bit, because I would

20     like to quote the next portion.  And then it says:

21             "Bearing this in mind --" and then it says, under 1:  "The

22     problem --"and may I just add this is the next page in English, a new

23     paragraph numbered as paragraph 1, and it says:

24             "This issue should not be escalated to the level of the General

25     Staff, BH command of UNPROFOR, because the unit of UNPROFOR in Srebrenica

Page 9059

 1     would in that way, be allowed sufficient time to set up an observation

 2     post."

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  [Previous translation continues] ... English

 4     translation, there is no further page, and if I compare the two versions

 5     in English and B/C/S, number 2, it seems to be quite different.

 6     Mr. Thayer?

 7             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, we just need to stay on page 1 in the

 8     English and I think that will take care of the problem.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is not -- it seems not to be the same.

10             MR. THAYER:  It's the wrong document, actually, Mr. President.

11     I think they've got the wrong document on the screen.  I was following,

12     on my hard copy, along with what General Tolimir was reading.  And I'm

13     looking at the screen and I think that's the wrong document.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Only the date is the same.  Mr. Thayer, it is a P

15     document, tendered yesterday by the Prosecution.  Perhaps there was a

16     wrong translation added to the original B/C/S version.  That might be the

17     explanation for this difficulty.

18             MR. THAYER:  Yes, Mr. President.  I'm just confirming the B/C/S

19     is correct, the -- if we go to page -- I'm sorry, Mr. President, but if

20     we could go to page 2 just to see what we have there in the English, just

21     see that again, yeah.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please wait a moment, Mr. Tolimir.

24             MR. THAYER:  What we can do ist that's clearly the wrong -- it's

25     an incomplete or erroneous translation.  I've got an English hard copy.

Page 9060

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think it's the right translation but

 2     incomplete.  It just stopped after the third line of paragraph 2.

 3             MR. THAYER:  Yes.  I have a complete translation in English.  We

 4     can put it on the ELMO, if that helps, or at least hand it to the

 5     witness.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That would be very helpful.  One copy for the

 7     witness, please, and another copy on the ELMO, please.

 8             Mr. Tolimir, we have this document in the English translation now

 9     on the ELMO and you may proceed.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   I just wanted to read out paragraph 1, below the interceding

13     paragraph between 3 and 1:

14             "Do not bring this problem to the level of the army General

15     Staff, UNPROFOR's BH command, because this would give the UNPROFOR unit

16     in Srebrenica ample time to set up an observation post."

17             And my question for the witness is as follows:  Since the

18     superior command in Tuzla understood clearly that UNPROFOR was right in

19     what they were saying, and we saw that in the first paragraph, my

20     question to you is why was it that you did not insist on being allowed to

21     proceed with the setting up of the observation post in Lozina village?

22     Thank you.

23        A.   Interpreting this for myself, item 1 of this document, which is

24     disappearing now --

25        Q.   Thank you.  I'm not asking you to interpret this document.  Just

Page 9061

 1     please answer my question.

 2        A.   In this document, it refers to an assumption of DutchBat in

 3     Srebrenica, and there is no agreement from Tuzla or Sarajevo on this

 4     subject.  So item 1, the assertion made by UNPROFOR in Srebrenica, the

 5     first line, indicates to me that it's a matter of interpretation by the

 6     unit in Srebrenica.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Boering, Mr. Tolimir put to you the following

 8     question:  Why was it that you did not insist on being allowed to proceed

 9     with the setting up of the observation post in Lozina village?  That was

10     the question.  Have you an answer?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have any answer to that.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Why did you not insist?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, I was peripherally involved

14     in this subject was not an operator present at all meetings, so this

15     could be a perfectly good question, but not to me.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

17             Mr. Tolimir, continue please.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

19             Since Witness does not know the answer, I would like to tender

20     this document into evidence.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  If I'm not mistaken, that was tendered and

22     admitted yesterday through the Prosecution.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a question.  Could I please

24     see the texts again?

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think, Mr. Boering, you touched something on

Page 9062

 1     this machine and that was the moment it disappeared.  It was the ELMO --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 3             Thank you.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We don't have it on the screen.

 5             Mr. Boering, do you want to add something in respect to this?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I don't want to add anything.

 7     I'm happy to be seeing the transcript of the case in front of me again.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Now you have the transcript.  Okay.  Thank you

 9     very much.

10             Mr. Tolimir, go ahead, please.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   We've already spent a lot of time on this so I have no further

14     questions about this topic.  Let's move on to the next group of

15     questions.  In view of the fact that Muslims in the area of Bandera

16     Triangle conducted some illicit activities and that in Lozina village

17     that was the case too, where they publicly said that there was a

18     transport -- that weapons were being transported from Srebrenica to Zepa,

19     did the UNPROFOR command in Srebrenica inform the -- its superior command

20     of this?

21        A.   I think there were weekly or daily reports from DutchBat to the

22     superior command, and all matters that were known or suspected were

23     reported.  So I assume that matters such as suspected arms smuggling was

24     reported as well.  But confirmed transport, smuggling of arms, as far as

25     I know, we didn't actually identify those.

Page 9063

 1        Q.   Thank you.  On the basis of these impermissible activities and no

 2     overview of the activities, did UNPROFOR try to assess what were the

 3     intentions of the operations group in Srebrenica?  Thank you.

 4        A.   That must undoubtedly have happened.  And as far as I remember,

 5     that related in part to smuggling operations and the objective was to get

 6     something of an impression of that, and DutchBat tried to carry that out,

 7     and we were able to do that to some extent because our own logistics was

 8     no longer optimal either; fuel shortages and the like.  So we were no

 9     longer able to operate extensively everywhere.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Since these are activities from January 1995 and then

11     April 1995, were you restricted because of the fuel quantities from

12     carrying out your full duties in controlling the demilitarised zone?

13        A.   Well, let's say from March and April, we -- our fuel supply was

14     reduced, the supplies to the enclave were reduced due to lack of

15     clearances issued and, as a consequence, we weren't able to operate as

16     much with vehicles.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, we have to finish the testimony of

18     this witness today.  I think you are going around and around the same

19     topic.  If you want to raise other matters in your cross-examination, you

20     should consider that, to do that as soon as possible.  We have lost a lot

21     of time this morning by repeating the same questions, and once you said,

22     "I'm running out of time."  That is perhaps because of some repetition,

23     we have to observe.  If you want to raise other matters, deal with other

24     issues, you should do that.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 9064

 1             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   My question is:  Were you able to reach other points other than

 3     the ones that were located in the Bandera Triangle that we were

 4     discussing?  Thank you.

 5        A.   I'm doing my best to understand your question, but I'm not

 6     entirely successful.  I would say that we had freedom of movement in the

 7     enclave except for the Bandera Triangle, if that's what you mean.

 8        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Boering.  We are not going to talk about that

 9     anymore.  I would like to see D67 in e-court, and then I'm going to put

10     questions to you on the basis of facts that are going to be evident from

11     this document.  Thank you.

12             We see a document here from the General Staff of the Republic of

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina on the 13th of July 1995, after the fall of the

14     enclave, to the president of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Alija Izetbegovic,

15     as an interim report, listing all their military activities in the

16     Srebrenica and Zepa zones.

17             In paragraph 2, line 1, the only one, it says:

18             "Specifically, the following has been done for Srebrenica and

19     Zepa."

20             And then the first bullet point:

21             "To start with, lethal assets and materiel and technical

22     equipment were brought in on foot in fairly small quantities.

23             "2.  17 helicopter flights were carried out in each of which a

24     helicopter was hit."  And later we'll see what was brought in on these

25     helicopters.

Page 9065

 1             "3.  In this way we transported a number of seriously wounded

 2     injured and brought in and took back 15 from Srebrenica and five from

 3     Zepa, men who are graduated from the wartime officers' college.

 4             "4.  In preparation for a future operation to link up the

 5     enclaves, we brought in and took back four brigade commanders, two

 6     brigade chiefs of staff, and the 26th Division Chief of Staff.  The

 7     Division commander, who was meant to go on the next helicopter flight,

 8     did not return after the final flight ended tragically.  Naser remained."

 9             My question is:  If you remember, you said that you did not see

10     Naser Oric after February.  This is something you said in the

11     examination-in-chief.  Was this the period when he left and could not

12     return anymore?  Is that the period in which these officers were in the

13     territory in Bosnia-Herzegovina in order for the Zepa and Srebrenica

14     enclaves to be linked up at some point in the future with the corps?

15     Thank you.

16        A.   Well, those are several questions at once.  Let me start with the

17     first one.  Sometime at the end of February, possibly, Naser Oric was

18     discovered to have left.  Where he actually was was kept secret.  We

19     suspected that he was in Tuzla.  Whether at that point operations were in

20     progress to connect or link up Zepa and Srebrenica, I don't know about

21     that.  I did not hear or see any information about that.  I was aware

22     that smuggling was taking place between the two enclaves, and the staff,

23     including the mayor of Srebrenica, sometimes stayed in Zepa.  So there

24     was a link between Zepa and Srebrenica.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Are you able to say whether the UNPROFOR command in

Page 9066

 1     Srebrenica at any point got any information that would indicate that the

 2     demilitarised enclaves of Zepa and Srebrenica wanted to link up and

 3     wanted to link up with their corps, the home unit in Tuzla and Kladanj?

 4     Thank you.

 5        A.   I know nothing about that.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now look at the next page of this document in

 7     the Serbian.  And in the English it's already on this page, if we can

 8     just scroll up a little bit and then continues in -- on the next page,

 9     and then we can see what has been brought in from -- of the weapons.

10     I think this is sufficient of a question for the witness.  Thank you.

11             My question is:  These weapons and these reports, do they

12     indicate that the Muslim army was preparing for some combat assault

13     actions, and did UNPROFOR have any information about these assault

14     actions that were being launched from the demilitarised zones?  Thank

15     you.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Your answer, please.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no immediate answer to that.

18     There were regular reports of breakouts from the enclave in the direction

19     of Serbia, but as for actually being involved in the planning or being

20     notified that the activities were taking place, no.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now look at 65 ter 040333.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Would you please repeat the number.  I'm not sure

24     if we have the correct number.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 04033.  Thank you.

Page 9067

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

 2             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   While we are waiting, I'm going to say, because there is no

 4     English, this is a document that the Main Staff of the Army of Republika

 5     Srpska sent to the commander of the Main Staff about activities of the

 6     enemy in relation to the units of the Main Staff.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer?

 8             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, I have a hard copy, English

 9     translation.  I might suggest that we do the same as we did with the

10     other one.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is there no English translation in e-court?

12             MR. THAYER:  I don't know if there is.  There wasn't one listed

13     in the defence list.  Doesn't appear that there is one in e-court, but I

14     have one.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  It should be put on the

16     ELMO.  The Chamber would appreciate if the translation could be uploaded

17     in e-court.  Mr. Gajic.

18             Mr. Tolimir, your question.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   I just indicated what the document was about.  I'm going to quote

22     a part of the document and then I'm going to put a question to it.  This

23     document was signed by General Tolimir and sent to the commander of the

24     Main Staff and the 65th regiment because of the activities directed at

25     the Main Staff and the regiment.  It states here:

Page 9068

 1             "On the 23rd of June of this year, at 0200 hours, a unit of

 2     approximately 300 soldiers headed out from Srebrenica, led by Ibrahim

 3     Mandic, the commander of the 281st Eastern Bosnia Light Brigade, Veis

 4     Sabic, the commander of the 284th Light Mountain Brigade, and his deputy

 5     Semso Salikovic and a guide man called Zoran Cardakovic, a Muslim.  The

 6     unit's task was to insert itself that same day at approximately 2200

 7     hours into the general sector of Ruzine Vode, Han Pijesak municipality.

 8     This group is equipped with automatic weapons, with a couple of 60

 9     millimetre mortars, and some rocket-propelled grenades."

10             Thank you.

11             Please, my question is:  Did you have any information that groups

12     were infiltrating themselves from demilitarised zones, from Srebrenica to

13     Zepa, in groups of 300 or so soldiers and that they were led -- being led

14     to carry out various assignments in the depth of the defence of the Army

15     of Republika Srpska, as we can see on this -- in this information from

16     the Main Staff?  Thank you.

17        A.   No, I was not aware of anything like that.

18        Q.   Thank you.  The last paragraph, the fourth paragraph in the

19     Serbian on this page, can we scroll up, please, states:

20             "Also on the 23rd of June of this year, in the evening hours, a

21     company of 120 soldiers --"

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We are unable to see the

23     text.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  With the assistance of the witness and now of the

25     Court Usher, we will see it soon.  Thank you.

Page 9069

 1             THE ACCUSED:  [Interpretation] "-- commanded by Zehrudin

 2     Jasarevic was sent from the composition of the Manoeuvre Brigade for a

 3     rotation to the sector of Jovino Brdo that will last five days and during

 4     which time they are to perform reconnaissance in the direction of

 5     Jeskovik [phoen] and the Peruca hydroelectric power plant in the Skelani

 6     municipality."

 7             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Thank you.  My question is, did you have information that there

 9     was a Manoeuvre Brigade in Srebrenica and that they were carrying out

10     actions in relation to Serbia and in relation to the hydroelectric power

11     plant, which at that time was a key industrial facility, as it is now?

12     Thank you.

13        A.   I know nothing about that.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now look at 1D27, please.  Thank you.  Can we

15     look at page 2 of this document.

16             This is a document of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina command

17     of the 28th Division, that it sent to the command of the 2nd Corps in

18     Tuzla.  Can we look at page 2 of document, please, where the information

19     is confirmed that they are also sending Mr. Tursunovic to Zepa.  If you

20     look at the second paragraph on this page, where it says:

21             "Apart from the other measures, I have decided to send to Zepa

22     part of the company sabotage and reconnaissance platoon, a unit attached

23     to the staff, and the commander of the 281st Light Mountain Brigade,

24     Major Zulfo Tursunovic."

25             Can you tell us whether you knew anything about the departure of

Page 9070

 1     Tursunovic from Srebrenica to Zepa and his frequent trips to that area in

 2     order to guide the activities of the sabotage and reconnaissance platoon?

 3     Thank you.

 4        A.   I know nothing about that.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Can we go back to page 1 of this document, please, at

 6     the very beginning.  We are talking about the month of June - it's on the

 7     screen already - where it says in the document, I quote:

 8             "The problem of members of the army of the Republic of

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina and civilians leaving the Srebrenica and Zepa safe

10     areas in the direction of Tuzla, Kladanj and Serbia, have been present

11     since the first days of demilitarisation of this area."

12             I'm going to skip a part and then I'm going to read line 15 to

13     you of this first paragraph.  This is five rows above this number, about

14     the division command order, and that sentence states:

15             "However, in the summer months it is as if some unknown wave

16     flows through the people, suddenly creating a euphoria that the best

17     solution is to leave for Tuzla.  This literally causes waves throughout

18     the entire area and the majority of people are then ready to leave."

19             In view of this, and the fact that you said yesterday that they

20     were not going to Tuzla voluntarily, can you say if you can tell from

21     this document whether this was a problem that was there throughout the

22     whole demilitarised period in the safe area, this departure of people

23     going towards Tuzla and Kladanj?

24        A.   I was aware that the population was leaving in small groups for

25     Tuzla or Kladanj.  I was also aware that it was a dangerous stretch.

Page 9071

 1     I remember that in the period from March to June food and medical

 2     supplies seriously deteriorated so that the population figured out that

 3     prospects were grim.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Did UNPROFOR have reports that the civilians from the

 5     Zepa and Srebrenica enclaves kept crossing over illegally to the

 6     territory under the control of the Muslim Federation, to Tuzla, Kladanj,

 7     Sarajevo, and so forth, and that some of them even tried to flee to

 8     Serbia?  Thank you.

 9        A.   Well, it was clearly happening, and there were reports, for

10     example, by the mayor of Srebrenica that things were tense among the

11     locals.

12        Q.   Thank you.  If civilians throughout this period after 1993, when

13     it was demilitarised, up until they left the enclaves, continued taking

14     this trip, crossing dangerous territory, does this actually contradict

15     your statement that they were not willing to leave, that they did not

16     leave there willingly but were, rather, forced to?  Thank you.

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Your answer, please, sir.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm trying to figure out the

19     question in my own mind.  Ultimately, the population that left the

20     enclave in convoys boarded the buses and, in my view, at that point those

21     people had no other option because no supplies were available to meet

22     their primary needs, and the same factor had motivated people to leave

23     the enclave at previous points in time, so a form of voluntary departure,

24     you could describe it as that, but forced by circumstances.

25             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Page 9072

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Can we go back to page 2, please, of this document so

 2     that I can show you, if you did not remember it, and I'm referring to the

 3     passage that I quoted earlier about Major Zulfo Tursunovic who was

 4     supposed to prevent those people who were trying illegally to leave Zepa

 5     and go to Kladanj or Tuzla.  So my question is:  Did even Muslims prevent

 6     those Muslims who were trying and wanted to leave the enclaves?  That's

 7     my question.

 8        A.   That may have happened in that manner.  To -- this was to have

 9     the enclave continue existing.

10        Q.   Thank you.  I would just like to read out the penultimate

11     sentence of this document.  And this document was drafted by the Muslim

12     side, not the Serb side.  And it says:

13             "A sabotage platoon of the company will, in cooperation with the

14     police of the 285th Light Mountain Brigade, in identifying such people,

15     arresting them and forcibly returning them to Srebrenica."

16             And the last sentence:

17             "We are of the opinion that the command of the 2nd Corps, in

18     cooperation with the other authorities, should undertake more severe

19     repressive measures against all persons leaving the zone."

20             I'm not going to read any further.  End of quote there.  But my

21     question would be this:  Did even Muslims take repressive measures to

22     prevent people from moving out of the demilitarised zones of Zepa and

23     Srebrenica?  Thank you.

24        A.   As is apparent from this report drafted by Ramiz, Naser's deputy,

25     this was policy.

Page 9073

 1        Q.   Thank you.  I'm not asking about the policy.  I'm asking you

 2     whether you, as a member of UNPROFOR, had received such reports that the

 3     civilians were actually wanting to leave the demilitarised zones and move

 4     on to the areas under the control of the Bosnian Federation.  Thank you.

 5        A.   Well, I can say that people I spoke with, whose prospects were

 6     grim, mentioned that they were considering leaving.  Measures as

 7     described in this report were not reported to us, or in any case not to

 8     me.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  In other words, you did have such knowledge because

10     you just told us that you had occasion to talk with people who had a grim

11     view of the situation.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now I would like to tender this

13     document into evidence, unless it's already been admitted.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received as an exhibit.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As D00144, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, the previous document, 65 ter 4033

17     is not in evidence yet.  Are you tendering it?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I would

19     like to tender it into evidence.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received and we are hoping that the

21     Prosecution will upload the English translation.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, it will be received as D00145,

23     marked for identification.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In fact, yes, it will now be marked, not pending

25     translations but pending uploading the translation.  Then it will be an

Page 9074

 1     exhibit.

 2             Mr. Tolimir, please continue.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Could we

 4     now pull up in e-court 1D191.  Thank you.  Thank you.

 5             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   This is a document confirming the information we saw a little

 7     earlier, that sabotage units were being sent to take action against the

 8     Main Staff.  Here we see this is a document from the Army of Bosnia and

 9     Herzegovina, sent to the command of the 2nd Corps and the 28th Division,

10     and it is sent as a combat report.  And there it says:

11             "Pursuant to an order from the representative of the commander of

12     the 28th Division of Srebrenica, Major Ramiz Becirovic, strictly

13     confidential, number 01-127, from 1995, dated 20th June 1995, on taking

14     measures to conduct sabotage operations in order to inflict losses on the

15     aggressor, personnel and materiel losses, and in the overall attempt to

16     push back the Chetnik forces from Sarajevo."

17             And now they number a number of -- they list a number of groups

18     there.  Can we please scroll this document a bit up.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I don't see this document on your

20     list of documents to be used during cross-examination.  And in addition,

21     Mr. Thayer?

22             MR. THAYER:  I'm just wondering if there is a translation that

23     the Defence has to assist the witness.  I'm not sure if there is one

24     available.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed.  Mr. Gajic?

Page 9075

 1             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we put documents -- as

 2     soon as we receive a translation of a document, we enter it in e-court.

 3     For this particular document, we have as yet received no translation.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Again, it's not on the list of documents to be

 5     used with this witness.

 6             Mr. Tolimir, put your question to the witness, please.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 8             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   My question is this:  Did you have information about sabotage

10     terrorist groups being sent, led by Zulfo Tursunovic, from Srebrenica via

11     Zepa to the Main Staff?  And did you ever receive any such information

12     from anyone?  Thank you.

13        A.   I was aware that Zulfo was active, and also that he was

14     pressuring people in the Bandera Triangle, and that he frequently

15     performed operations outside the enclave, but this was more general.

16        Q.   Thank you.  I would like to show another document from the same

17     period, from June 1997, sent from the army of BH, that's document 1D356.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We don't have an English translation yet.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We haven't received it yet.  We

20     have requested a translation.  Thank you.

21             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   As we have no English translation, I will only read out the first

23     paragraph under the date:

24             "In the morning hours on the 26th of June, 1995, our forces from

25     the Srebrenica area attacked and set on fire Visnjica village.  According

Page 9076

 1     to unconfirmed information, Chetniks suffered losses among the civilian

 2     population."

 3             My question is this:  Did you -- or were you ever informed about

 4     an attack launched from the enclave in Srebrenica on Visnjica village,

 5     which was outside the enclave to the west and that is exactly the area

 6     where your movement was restricted?  Thank you.

 7        A.   In contacts with Momir Nikolic in Bratunac, he regularly

 8     mentioned incidents of outbreaks from the enclave by Muslims, describing

 9     the losses.  It's perfectly possible that this was reported to us, but it

10     isn't fresh in my memory at this time.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we please have

12     this document admitted into evidence?  That's 1D356.  And in the

13     meantime --

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, the Chamber has a problem with

16     receiving that document.  You have only put one question to the witness

17     and he said, "It is perfectly possible that this was reported to us, but

18     it isn't fresh in my memory at this time."  I think there is no

19     authentication by the witness about this document, we don't know any

20     details about the document.  We have a big problem to receive it at this

21     point in time.  You may use it with another witness and, especially as we

22     have no translation, we don't know anything about it.  Wait, please, I'm

23     still talking.  Your request to admit it is denied.

24             Now we have another document on the screen.  Please go ahead.

25     Still the same.  I'm sorry, I was mistaken.  Please go ahead.

Page 9077

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I would

 2     now like to pull up D52.  That's a document that has already been

 3     admitted, and I would like to talk with the witness about this because he

 4     said that he didn't know that a village on the very border of the enclave

 5     had been torched.  Thank you.

 6             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Here we see that document, that's D52, another report from the

 8     command of the 2nd Corps of the BH Army of the 8th of July, 1995, when it

 9     was sent to units as information on combat results of the units and

10     commands of the 28th Ground Army Division.  Would you please just take a

11     look at the first bullet point below the first paragraph.  It says:  "60

12     Chetniks were liquidated," so on and so forth, what was captured, and

13     then it says:

14             "In the village of Visnjica, large quantities of ammunition were

15     seized but the soldiers were exhausted and could not remove all of it, so

16     it was destroyed, as were all the facilities that the aggressor could use

17     for military purposes."

18             Thank you.  End of quote.

19             Now, you said that you had a meeting with Nikolic, and he might

20     have mentioned this, but did you also have a meeting with Mr. -- a

21     gentleman from the Milici Brigade regarding this same issue?  And you

22     mentioned this gentleman as a man by the name of Sarkic, and you said

23     that you had two meetings with this person.  Thank you.

24        A.   I can't remember having dealt with Sarkic about this.  I met with

25     him once in early January at the introduction, at the very start of my

Page 9078

 1     deployment, and later on at the very end, upon my departure for Kladanj,

 2     he was present there.  In between, I did not speak with him.  All our

 3     dealings concerning the VRS either went through Vukovic or, ordinarily,

 4     they would go through Nikolic.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  In other words, you didn't know anything about your

 6     command having any information that a village to the west of the

 7     demilitarised zone had been torched in the area not far from the Bandera

 8     Triangle.  It was some six kilometres from the separation line and

 9     Bandera Triangle.

10        A.   Well, reports regularly arrived of shooting and combat, so it was

11     known that activities were taking place in that region.  The details of

12     these operations, however, were not known, especially six kilometres

13     away.  It must have been audible to observation posts and must have been

14     reported, but an actual description of what was happening in that village

15     was not available to us.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Could we now see 2806 in e-court, please.  My

17     apologies.  Actually, we need 1D364 now, thank you.  1D364.  Thank you.

18             Here we have the document before us.  It was also from the Army

19     of Bosnia and Herzegovina, its 2nd Corps, and in June - in other words a

20     month before the events in the enclave - this document was sent to the

21     commander of the 28th Division, of land forces, and the command of the

22     285th Light Brigade, and it goes on to read as follows:

23             "Our congratulations on the successful completion of your combat

24     operations which have significantly contributed to a successful

25     completion of the operation to lift the blockade of Sarajevo and where

Page 9079

 1     you have inflicted heavy losses on the aggressor in the fight for the

 2     ultimate and final liberation of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

 3     the destruction of the Serbo-Montenegrin fascists."

 4             That is what it reads in this document, signed by the commander,

 5     Sead Delic.  And then it goes on to say:

 6             "In the next period you are to comply with the orders issued so

 7     far.  Prepare your plans for active combat at the appropriate time.

 8     Orders for those combat operations shall be forwarded to you from us or

 9     the BH Army Main Staff."

10             Now, in view of what I've read, did you have any information

11     that, in the month of June - in other words, a month before the enclave

12     fell - in late June and later, Muslim forces were conducting active

13     combat operations, as it says in this document, against the rear lines of

14     the Serbian army?  Thank you.

15        A.   We were aware that activities were taking place from the enclave

16     to relieve the burden from Sarajevo.  And that was indicated regularly

17     through our contacts with, in part, the VRS.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Thayer?

19             MR. THAYER:  Mr. President, keeping an eye on the clock for this

20     witness, but also for future witnesses, we've said it before and I'll say

21     it again, that it is not contested, in fact it's part of the

22     Prosecution's case and has been from the beginning of this trial and

23     previous trials, that the Muslim forces operating from within the

24     Srebrenica enclave had, as part of their objective, tying down VRS troops

25     as a way of drawing VRS resources away from the Sarajevo front.  That is

Page 9080

 1     not contested.  And I think I see from the cross-examination list of

 2     documents a number of documents - I don't know if there are a lot more -

 3     in this line of questioning, but again, it's not in contest, we could

 4     probably agree with the Defence, as we do, I think, on 99 per cent of

 5     their documents, that there will be no objection from the Prosecution to

 6     tendering them, whether it's by way of a bar table motion later or some

 7     other mechanism, but to just simply try to save some time and avoid going

 8     over these same uncontested issues, I would urge the Defence to look at

 9     that, especially with this witness, for whom we have a limited amount of

10     time, but also in the future.  Again, we are always available to do that;

11     it is not contested in this case.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  The Chamber would like to

13     invite the parties to negotiate if it would be possible to reach an

14     agreement about these facts.  Indeed, that would help the Defence and the

15     Chamber to know what we are talking about.

16             The Chamber is concerned a bit about the time.  It's the last

17     hearing day of this year before the winter recess.  I would like to ask

18     Mr. Tolimir about your estimation of the remainder of cross-examination.

19     You have used more than four and a half hours up to now.  We have only

20     three-quarters of an hour left.  The Prosecution will need some time for

21     re-examination.  Mr. Thayer?

22             MR. THAYER:  Not yet, Mr. President, and I doubt that we will

23     have any, based on the way things are going.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  That will be very helpful,

25     especially for Mr. Tolimir.  Have you any idea if you will be able to

Page 9081

 1     finish the cross-examination today?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I'm

 3     going to try to finish, and I thank Mr. Thayer for allowing us time to be

 4     able to complete the cross-examination of this witness by the end of the

 5     day today.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.  We adjourn and resume at 1.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 1.05 p.m.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We tried to have a shorter break but we were not

10     successful because of technical problems again.

11             Mr. Tolimir, please continue.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  In order

13     to start with the footage right away, we can look at it right away, we

14     don't need to lay down the foundation, and then we can move to questions.

15     If we can look at P991 from 46.24 to 48, and if the witness can carefully

16     look at the footage, pay attention to what the speakers are saying.

17     Yesterday we actually had the transcript of this footage and we went over

18     it.  Thank you.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mr. Boering, are you able to say if this is the first meeting

24     that you and Mr. Karremans had with General Mladic?  Thank you.

25        A.   Yes.  This was the first meeting with General Mladic.

Page 9082

 1        Q.   Can you remember when the meeting was held, what time?

 2        A.   This meeting was on 11 July, I believe in the course of the

 3     afternoon, at Fontana.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Was this a meeting that was requested by General

 5     Mladic or by General Karremans?  Thank you.

 6        A.   You asked me this question yesterday several times, and then

 7     I indicated that at this time I don't clearly remember that.  In any

 8     case, there was some contact with Petar, the interpreter present in

 9     Bratunac, about this meeting.  I thought about it some more last night.

10     Conceivably we sought contact via Petar and, through this interpreter,

11     this proposal at this time was made.  So I think it was a combined event,

12     perhaps first at our request and then accepted and subsequently requested

13     by Petar.  That's what comes to mind.

14        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Boering.  Yesterday you also said that before this

15     meeting, Colonel Karremans spoke with Nicolai.  At this meeting, did he

16     tell General Mladic what orders he received from General Nicolai and the

17     command, as he put it, for Bosnia-Herzegovina?  Thank you.  The UNPROFOR

18     command for Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Thank you.

19        A.   Yes.  He indicated, as conveyed in this video, that the intention

20     was to leave the enclave, both DutchBat and let's call them the refugees.

21     And the objective was to bring this about in the most appropriate

22     possible way.

23        Q.   Thank you.  In order to resolve this situation at the Potocari

24     base, did you need the help of the Army of Republika Srpska to which you

25     were directed by General Nicolai, according to what Karremans said?

Page 9083

 1        A.   I assume we did.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Since we covered this topic in detail yesterday, I'm

 3     not going to go back to it.  Can we now go back to your statement.  This

 4     is page 4, paragraph 6, and this is the 65 ter number 06703.

 5             We will be looking at your statement now, the 65 ter number

 6     06703.  I would like to look at page 4, please, paragraph 6.  And we can

 7     see that sixth paragraph in the Serbian.  Can we also see it in the

 8     English, please.  This is page 5 in the English.  Thank you, Aleksandar.

 9     This is page 5, paragraph 2.  You say, line 4, I'm quoting.  Line 4:

10             "During this night, Karremans and I held talks with the Muslims.

11     Karremans promised the Muslims air support on that occasion.  I suspect

12     that the Muslim fighters decided that night that their position was

13     untenable and that they would have to flee."

14             My question is:  Were you with -- were you alone with Colonel

15     Karremans during these talks or were there any other persons who attended

16     this meeting with the Muslims?  Thank you.

17        A.   There were other people present, both from the Muslim side and

18     for DutchBat.  If I remember correctly, Sergeant Major Rave was also

19     present.

20        Q.   My next question is:  Who was interpreting for you during this

21     conversation that you had with the Muslims?  Who translated what

22     Mr. Karremans was saying?  Thank you.

23        A.   I suspect that it was Hasan, the interpreter who was ordinarily

24     present in the PTT building.  I can't think of his surname just now, but

25     he's known.

Page 9084

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Are you able to remember what Mr. Karremans told the

 2     Muslims that night in your presence and the presence of the interpreter

 3     Hasan Nuhanovic?  Thank you.

 4        A.   Well, I remember something about a commitment of massive air

 5     support, if the attack on the enclave continued by the VRS or, in fact,

 6     took place on the part of the VRS, and that would happen -- it was

 7     supposed to happen in the early morning hours, and that would be a

 8     massive attack, and people would need to take care for their -- to watch

 9     their own safety.

10        Q.   When you said "people," did you mean Muslims, the Muslims had to

11     take care of their own security, their own safety?

12        A.   When I say "safety," I mean that you need to try to avoid getting

13     hit by bombs that drop.  And that held true both for our own DutchBat

14     members as for the Muslims.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Was the zone that needed to be evacuated indicated

16     for the safety of Muslim members and UNPROFOR?

17        A.   Well, I remember that there was an area and there were borders,

18     but the details are not fresh in my memory.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us if you remember if Colonel Karremans

20     spoke about massive bombardment of that area and that sector that he

21     indicated?  Thank you.

22        A.   Yes.  He mentioned that.  I think I explained that a few

23     sentences earlier, about massive air support.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Let's see what the Muslim representative said about

25     that and what this translator said, Hasan Nuhanovic.  Can we look at

Page 9085

 1     1D137, now, please.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, are you tendering the OTP statement

 3     of this witness, 65 ter 6703?  I think you used it already yesterday but

 4     I'm not sure if you tendered it.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Yes, we

 6     would like to tender it.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It will be received.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour, it will be received as Exhibit

 9     D00146.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Mr. Tolimir.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I ask the e-court now to show

12     1D137, please.  Sorry, I made a mistake.  I actually need D137, without

13     this 1 in front.

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   While we are waiting for it to appear on the screen, I'm going to

16     say that this is a transcript of a conversation which was shown in a

17     documentary film on Radio Television Serbia, on the 9th of July, 2010.  I

18     am reading this text in the second paragraph -- actually, the first

19     paragraph says:

20             "On the 10th of -- on the evening of the 10th of July, a meeting

21     between the Dutch Battalion commander and representatives of the 28th

22     Division was held in the post office building in Srebrenica.  Hakija

23     Meholjic, member of the Srebrenica War Presidency from 1993 to 1995."

24             And now they are quoting the transcript of what was said in that

25     programme:

Page 9086

 1             "In the meantime, Karremans arrived requesting a meeting.  I told

 2     him, five more minutes, so we can first agree on everything ourselves

 3     because we have no reason to trust you anymore.  We arranged everything,

 4     then we received him for a talk and he said that NATO informed him that a

 5     death zone has been set around Srebrenica for tomorrow at half past five.

 6     Everything that moves on two, four, or a hundred feet, or on a hundred

 7     wheels, or on one wheel or on two wheels, will be destroyed, that it will

 8     be destroyed."

 9             My question is:  Do you remember whether Mr. Karremans said this

10     in the way that Hakija Meholjic, the member of the Srebrenica War

11     Presidency, conveys it here?

12        A.   I'm not sure whether it was stated literally that way, but the

13     gist corresponds well with what I remember.

14        Q.   Thank you.  My question is:  Did what Mr. Karremans announced

15     actually take place; and if it did not, why did it not?

16        A.   Well, it didn't happen en masse, and it didn't take place in the

17     morning but later in the afternoon.  And why it didn't happen?  Extensive

18     research has been conducted on that, many, many times, but that exceeds

19     my scope.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us what you know about the research that

21     has been conducted into why the air-strikes did not happen?  Thank you.

22        A.   Well, that could become a very long answer.  I derive most of the

23     information from the reports to which you have access as well.  Given the

24     time pressure, I don't think it's relevant for me to elaborate on all

25     that off the top of my head.

Page 9087

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us whether NATO had a green light to

 2     bomb the positions of the Republika Srpska in and around Srebrenica?

 3     Thank you.

 4        A.   I don't have any concrete information for that.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us whether NATO, when it announced that

 6     they would conduct air strikes, actually took sides in this conflict

 7     between the Muslims and the Serbs in Srebrenica?  Thank you.

 8        A.   I don't think that the actual support that took place was biased.

 9     It was a situation where their own troops were dealing with VRS units and

10     these forward air controllers were under fire.  So it wasn't bias; it was

11     self-defence.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Well, does self-defence occur at the point of attack

13     or subsequently?  Thank you.

14        A.   I don't understand the question.  Thank you.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Since Colonel Karremans announced on the 10th that

16     there would be air-strikes, he announced it on the 10th, that the

17     air-strikes would follow in the early morning hours on the 11th, does

18     this constitute self-defence if it is already announced ahead of time?

19     Or would self-defence actually be considered self-defence if it happened

20     once an attack occurred, or subsequently?  Thank you.

21        A.   As far as I can remember, Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans did

22     mention on the evening of the 10th that this bombing would take place if

23     ongoing attacks were conducted that constituted attacks.  And if you're

24     under attack, you're entitled to defend yourself.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Let us now look at what the interpreter, Hasan

Page 9088

 1     Nuhanovic, who interpreted all that, let us hear what he had to say.

 2             "The Serbian side was given an ultimatum to withdraw by 0600

 3     hours to their starting positions, in other words Zeleni Jadar, to go

 4     back six kilometres or they would be bombarded at 0600 hours."

 5             He says that "the number of aircraft that will come for

 6     air-strikes, they told me, would be between 40 and 70.  That is what was

 7     -- what has been said."

 8             Now, this is what Hasan Nuhanovic said during the interview and

 9     this programme of the 10th of July, 2010.  So my question is who was it

10     who gave this green light for the bombing?

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the accused please

12     repeat his question.  We did not understand him.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, the interpreters asked to repeat the

14     question.  I only see the question, "So my question is who was it who

15     gave this green light for the bombing?"  Was that your question?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  My question was who

17     issued the ultimatum to the -- to Republika Srpska; was it NATO or the

18     UNPROFOR?  Thank you.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Boering.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not aware of who issued the

21     ultimatum.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Thank you.  Did Mr. Karremans mention this ultimatum of by 0600

24     hours?  Thank you.

25        A.   Well, let me put it as follows:  After this meeting,

Page 9089

 1     Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans left for Potocari while I remained behind in

 2     Srebrenica.  So what happened was that in Potocari, after

 3     Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans returned, was not -- I didn't observe that,

 4     so I don't know.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  The UNPROFOR or NATO, by issuing an ultimatum to one

 6     of the warring parties, would that constitute taking sides, and would

 7     that shift the balance of forces?  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I think the witness has explained

 9     his position very clearly.  He spoke about self-defence.  You should not

10     repeat the question.  We have not so much time.  We are approaching the

11     end of today's hearing.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I would

13     now like the witness to be shown again the statement D14, the witness

14     statement that was 65 ter 60 -- 6703.  What we would like to see is

15     paragraph 7.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is D146.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Could we

18     then please have D146 in e-court.  And I would like the witness to be

19     shown paragraph 6, on page 4 in Serbian and page 5 in English.

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Paragraph 7 in Serbian, in the first line, the last three words:

22             "The captain out there had received information, a message that

23     we had to establish definitively where the Serbs were located within the

24     enclave.  Only after the presence of Serbian fighters had been definitely

25     confirmed and after positive identification of their presence and use of

Page 9090

 1     weapons would air support be given."

 2             My question is this:  Who issued this assignment to Captain

 3     Groen, and why did they have to know the exact location of the Serbs, and

 4     did they have to engage them in order for air support to follow?  Thank

 5     you.

 6        A.   I assume that this assignment was issued by Captain Groen or by

 7     Karremans.  So there had to be an actual threat to be allowed to issue

 8     air support.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Did UNPROFOR soldiers, in keeping with this request

10     from Captain Groen, have to locate the tanks of the VRS, the Republika

11     Srpska army, and establish at the time that those tanks were actually

12     firing in order for the air support to come?  Thank you.

13        A.   Yes.  I think you could express it that way.

14        Q.   Thank you.  During the examination-in-chief you said that you

15     couldn't recall the name of the lieutenant who was in charge of forward

16     air controllers of UNPROFOR.  Could you tell us, please, was it

17     Lieutenant Egbers who was in charge of forward air control of UNPROFOR,

18     and did he subsequently take any action in order to locate the targets of

19     Republika Srpska to be able to guide the NATO air-strikes?  Thank you.

20        A.   Well, the actual execution of forward air controls was certainly

21     not performed by Lieutenant Egbers.  He may have provided instructions,

22     but that was not observed by me.  It was outside my field of observation.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, can you tell us the time you will

24     need for concluding your cross-examination?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We will conclude it

Page 9091

 1     within the time frame that you tell us we have, but I would just like to

 2     remind this witness that he was present there.

 3             Now, let's take a look at --

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Stop.  We are at the end of today's hearing and

 5     now I'm asking you how much time you need to conclude your

 6     cross-examination.  That's a question to you.  We are at the end of

 7     today's hearing.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  If you

 9     allow me, I would have an additional four to five questions, and I should

10     be able to conclude my cross-examination by 1400.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please go ahead.  Thank you very much.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Please take a look at line 4, paragraph 7, of your statement, on

14     page 4 that we have before us.  And you say there the following:

15             "I went to confer again with a few Muslim administrators who

16     communicated Serb positions to me.  Every time DutchBat soldiers went to

17     look at these positions, they were fired upon by the Serbs."

18             Does this indicate that you too were involved in locating Serb

19     targets and that you asked information from Muslim fighters to that

20     effect?  Thank you.

21        A.   I did indeed do this, so in my view, that happened earlier, not

22     on that day.  In my view, it took place the day before.  So I suspect

23     that it happened before our meeting where Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans

24     mentioned the massive air support.

25        Q.   Thank you.  You begin this paragraph with the words "the next

Page 9092

 1     day," and that is why I asked you whether this was on the 11th, on the

 2     day when the positions of the VRS were under air-strikes.

 3        A.   My impression is that this request or activity on my part with

 4     respect to the Muslims so that they could invoke the smoking-gun

 5     principle was on the previous day or on the day that we had that meeting

 6     in the evening with Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans.  So it was probably on

 7     the 9th, I think.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Well, was my question fairly put, and I only actually

 9     posed my question based on what you said there, that it was on the next

10     day that Karremans had talks with the Muslims.  Thank you.

11        A.   I'm gradually beginning to lose my power of concentration.  I'm

12     having trouble understanding this question.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir was referring to the beginning of

14     that paragraph, "The next day there was no air support at the agreed

15     time."  And he wants to know the time frame, the subsequent events, when

16     all that happened, especially he was asking you at which day you had the

17     talks with the Muslims together with Karremans.  If you remember.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The conversation with the Muslims

19     was in the evening of 9 July, as far as I remember.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Did Karremans then announce NATO air-strikes for the 10th or for

24     the 11th?  Thank you.

25        A.   Well, it was the next day.  If the conversation with the Muslims

Page 9093

 1     took place about the massive air support on the 9th, then the previous

 2     afternoon or morning was when the conversation took place with the

 3     Muslims about the smoking-gun principle, but exact days, it was a

 4     succession of events.  Because in the morning of the 10th, no air support

 5     was forthcoming, my impression is that the enclave fell on the 10th.

 6     That's the way I've got it in my mind at this time but my power of

 7     concentration is eroding by now.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  I appreciate that, and I will not insist on this any

 9     longer, in view of the difficulties you're having, and it could happen to

10     any one of us.

11             Now, since we can no longer discuss matters that you have

12     difficulty recalling at this point in time, let me just ask you quickly

13     whether the assignment that Captain Groen received and forwarded to the

14     air forward controllers, was it -- did it have to be met?  In other

15     words, did the tanks have to be found and did they have to be found with

16     the so-called smoking-gun principle, and was that the condition for the

17     air support to follow?

18        A.   Well, I don't know.

19        Q.   Thank you.  We will leave this topic since you don't know.  But

20     now could we see P1203.  My apologies, P1202.  My apologies to e-court.

21     Page 1, P1202.

22             While we are waiting for it to come up, we can see it in the

23     Serbian language and, for the transcript, let me say that this is a

24     document drafted by the command of the Drina Corps on the 2nd of July and

25     forwarded to brigades as an order to prevent Muslim operations, and I

Page 9094

 1     will just read paragraph 1:

 2             "As part of an all-out offensive against Republika Srpska

 3     territory, the enemy has carried out attacks with the limited objective

 4     against the DK units.  We believe that in the coming period the enemy

 5     will intensify offensive activities against the DK area of

 6     responsibilities, mainly in the Tuzla-Zvornik and Kladanj-Vlasenica

 7     directions with simultaneous activity by the 28th Division forces from

 8     the enclaves of Srebrenica and Zepa, in order to cut the DK area of

 9     responsibility in two and connect the enclaves with a central part of the

10     territory of former Bosnia-Herzegovina held by Muslim forces."

11             This was information about activities that were carried out at

12     the time in the territory under the control of the army, BH Army.

13             Now, my question is:  In view of this and the earlier instance

14     where the Prosecutor said that he was not disputing that, does this mean

15     that it was to be expected to -- that the Republika Srpska army would

16     conduct and take such activities on in order to prevent the offensive

17     activities in those areas where there should be no military activities?

18     Thank you.

19        A.   It's possible to take such action.  That's one of the options.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             Mr. President, we are not requesting any additional time and I've

22     said that I will complete my cross-examination by 2.00, but I would like

23     to address the Trial Chamber with a request that my assistant seek to

24     tender the documents that we wanted to tender earlier via bar table

25     motion, in view of the fact that the Prosecutor was not disputing the

Page 9095

 1     facts there and these were documents that have already been admitted in

 2     other cases.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The Chamber will look forward to receive such a

 4     request by the Defence.  Can I take it, Mr. Tolimir, that this concludes

 5     your cross-examination?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  That is

 7     correct.  And I would like to thank Mr. Boering and apologise to him for

 8     keeping him here under intense questioning over the course of the past

 9     two days, and I wish him a merry holiday season, the Christmas season,

10     and I would like to thank him for coming to testify in this case.  And

11     I would also like to thank Mr. Thayer for his assistance, and

12     I appreciate everyone's understanding.  And I wish a Merry Christmas to

13     all those who celebrate Christmas.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

15             Mr. Boering, you will be pleased to hear that now you are free to

16     leave the Tribunal to return to your normal activities and to your home.

17     This is really the end of your testimony in this trial.  Thank you very

18     much that you were able to come here and to stay an extended time with us

19     in this courtroom.  Thank you again.

20             Are there any matters to raise today by either party?  I don't

21     see anybody on his feet.

22             Mr. Boering, I would like to invite you to leave the courtroom,

23     if you wish to do that.  It concludes your testimony.  Thank you very

24     much again.

25             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much.

Page 9096

 1                           [The witness withdrew]

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  At this point in time, I would like to express my

 3     gratitude and the gratitude of the Chamber for all those who helped us

 4     today, especially the Dutch interpreters, but the other interpreters for

 5     all the different languages as well.  I would like to thank the whole

 6     staff:  The Court Recorder, the Court Usher, the Court Officer, the

 7     officers of the Chamber, the Defence and the Prosecution, for their very

 8     good cooperation during the past year.  Sometimes we had some problems

 9     but I think that was -- we all were able to resolve the problems after

10     they occurred.  We are grateful for this good cooperation in the

11     courtroom, and I hope very much that we will be able to continue that way

12     next year.

13             We have a long time ahead in this trial.  We are not sitting

14     until the 31st of January, to enable Mr. Tolimir to review the documents,

15     especially the diary of General Mladic.  Again I would like to thank

16     everybody and wish everybody a very happy time, good Christmastime, if

17     you're celebrating Christmas, and a Happy New Year.  See you next year.

18     Thank you very much.  We adjourn and resume on the 31st of January.

19                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.03 p.m.,

20                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 31st day of

21                           January, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.