Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10153

 1                           Tuesday, 22 February 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning to everybody in the courtroom.

 6             Do the parties wish to address the Chamber with something?

 7             Mr. McCloskey.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, good morning, Mr. President, good morning,

 9     Your Honours.  Good morning everyone.

10             I'm sorry I wasn't here on Thursday.  I was at a -- as

11     Mr. Vanderpuye said, a pre-planned missions, but I, of course, did review

12     the transcripts and review your concerns of the evening prior, and I want

13     to let you know I, of course, share your concerns as I indicated that

14     evening.  And, first of all, my remarks to Judge Mindua were absolutely

15     unacceptable and there was -- and without excuse and that will never

16     happen again.  Judge Mindua, I am sorry.  That will never happen again.

17     I should not let myself get carried away by emotion and you will never

18     see that again.

19             The remarks that led to the problem which I had made in the

20     context of an objection were ill-chosen words when we go back and look at

21     them.  They left a strong impression that I was trying to control the

22     witness, and I'm happy in retrospect that Judge Mindua brought that up

23     because I had no idea that I left that impression, but if you look at the

24     words, you're absolutely correct.  They were ill-chosen.  I did not -- I

25     should not have said that.  What I meant to say is, in my view, this

Page 10154

 1     witness should be able to leave.  And as you know, and as I said that

 2     night, we have never had a problem with controlling witnesses or -- or

 3     witnesses unavailable.  When that happens we work with the Court, with

 4     the Defence, and we bring people back, and that will never be our object.

 5     That will never happen.  It wasn't a problem and it will not be a

 6     problem.  And my words need to be chosen better, and I regret that they

 7     were -- I said what I said, and I'm glad you picked it out because

 8     sometimes in the heat of those objections and things, you know, you loose

 9     track.  There's one thing I hate is lawyers that don't hear themselves,

10     and I hate to have been my own worst enemy in that respect.

11             And if there anything else I can clear up for you about that

12     unfortunate evening, I will.  Otherwise, we're ready to go with

13     Mr. Manning.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much, Mr. McCloskey.  Bear with us

15     for a moment, please.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, the Chamber has heard what you

18     were addressing to the Chamber.  We took note of it and we will consider

19     your position and your submission, and we will come back later to this

20     matter.

21             I would like to raise two other matters at this point in time.

22     We had a notice that the Prosecution didn't file the list of witnesses to

23     be heard this week in time.  It came one day too late.  And we would like

24     to invite both parties to submit these lists of witnesses including the

25     time which will be needed for examination-in-chief and cross-examination

Page 10155

 1     in time, and if it's not possible to file them, we should receive a

 2     courtesy copy of such a filing so that we can prepare the hearing in the

 3     proper way.

 4             So the -- we have another matter.  We have to discuss the two

 5     exhibits, P01362 and P01363.  It's an autopsy report dated 17th of

 6     August, 1999, with an associated photograph which were tendered by the

 7     Prosecution through Erin Gallagher on the 15th of November 2010 and

 8     marked for identification pending translation.

 9             The Chamber was informed on the 10th of February that a B/C/S

10     translation of the document, P1362, has now been uploaded.

11             Are there any further submissions regarding the admissibility of

12     this document?  This is a question directed to the Defence.

13             Mr. Gajic.

14             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, good morning to

15     everybody.

16             I am just looking at these documents, so if we could have a

17     little more time to give an answer to your question, please.  Since

18     Witness Gallagher testified quite a while ago, so we would like to remind

19     ourselves of the exhibits and then we can give an answer to your

20     question.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is fine.  When can we expect your response?

22             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Tomorrow morning at the latest.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Then we will come back to

24     that.

25             If there's nothing else, the witness should be brought in,


Page 10156

 1     please.

 2                           [The witness entered court]

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Good morning, Mr. Manning.  Welcome to the

 4     Tribunal and the courtroom.  Would you please read aloud the affirmation

 5     on the card which is shown to you now.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I solemnly declare that I

 7     will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 8             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  Please sit down and make

 9     yourself comfortable.

10             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey has questions for you.

12             Mr. McCloskey.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14                           WITNESS:  DEAN MANNING

15                           Examination by Mr. McCloskey:

16        Q.   And could you spell your last name for us, for the record?

17        A.   My family name is Manning, M-a-n-n-i-n-g.

18        Q.   And, Mr. Manning, you had a chance to testify in the Popovic

19     et al case regarding your years of work here at the OTP in the Srebrenica

20     case; is that correct?

21        A.   That's correct.

22        Q.   And have you recently had a chance to review your testimony and

23     the exhibits that came in through you and that you were -- discussed at

24     the time?

25        A.   Yes, I reviewed that material.

Page 10157

 1        Q.   And if you were asked the same questions today, would your

 2     answers be the same?

 3        A.   Yes, they would.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And, Mr. President, there's quite a long list of

 6     material here.  Fundamentally the transcripts, it's 65 ter 6764 and 6765,

 7     but then I have pages that perhaps we can work out the best way to do

 8     this to save time with the Registrar.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  The two transcripts will be received as exhibits.

10     The first one 65 ter 06764 under seal.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter document 06764 shall be

12     assigned Exhibit P1818, admitted under seal.

13             65 ter document 06765 shall be assigned Exhibit P1819.

14             Thank you, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  And we have, indeed, received a list

16     of associated exhibits admitted through Mr. Manning in the Popovic trial.

17     The first number is 65 ter 06766 and the last one in this list is

18     65 ter 02201.

19             They will be received as well, but those who don't have a

20     translation yet will be only marked for identification, pending

21     translation.  I'm not aware of any of those who don't have a translation.

22     I received an e-mail this morning that two of them have now a

23     translation, but that should be checked again in the whole list.  And the

24     Registry will provide the parties and the Chamber with the P numbers of

25     these documents by internal memorandum.

Page 10158

 1             Mr. McCloskey go ahead, please.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, thank you.  That accords with Ms. Stewart's

 3     records as well.

 4             So we'll double-check that.

 5             All right.  And I'll read a summary now before we get into some

 6     questioning.

 7             From 1983 to 1998, Mr. Dean Manning worked as a police officer

 8     for the Australian Federal Police.  In 1998, he came to work in The Hague

 9     for the Office of the Prosecutor of the ICTY.  For his first four years

10     at the OTP, Mr. Manning was assigned to the Srebrenica investigation as a

11     team investigator.  For the last two years of his work for the OTP,

12     Mr. Manning was promoted to the position of investigative team leader for

13     cases involving offences by Bosnian Croats and the case of Slobodan

14     Milosevic.

15             During his work for the Srebrenica team, Mr. Manning was

16     assigned, among other duties, as the co-ordinator of the Srebrenica

17     exhumations programme.  As co-ordinator he was responsible for monitoring

18     the ICTY exhumation teams in their work in the field.  During the course

19     of this work, he participated in the forensic examination of several mass

20     execution sites and exhumation -- and the exhumation of numerous mass

21     graves associated with the fall of Srebrenica.  He worked closely with

22     investigators, archaeologists, anthropologists, forensic pathologists,

23     and others who worked on the exhumations and autopsies of Srebrenica

24     victims and prepared reports compiling and summarising the evidence

25     obtained from the exhumations.  He has previous testified before this

Page 10159

 1     Tribunal in the Krstic, Slobodan Milosevic case, Blagojevic, and Popovic

 2     cases.

 3             As part of his work for the Srebrenica team, Mr. Manning, was

 4     involved in locating mass graves by working with information from

 5     witnesses and examining aerial imagery of disturbed soil provided by the

 6     United States government.  Mr. Manning reported that the Srebrenica team

 7     identified 14 primary mass graves and 22 secondary mass graves, all

 8     related to the Srebrenica events.  Mr. Manning was personally involved in

 9     at least 11 of the exhumations of these sites.  In 2001, Mr. Manning

10     oversaw the process of handing over the locations of approximately 20

11     mass graves to the Bosnian Commission for Missing Persons, who worked in

12     association with the International Commission for Missing Persons, or, as

13     we know it, the ICMP.  Mr. Manning headed the small ICTY team that

14     monitored the exhumations conducted by the Bosnian commission.

15             To determine that the mass graves were related to the fall of

16     Srebrenica, Mr. Manning became familiar with the evidence collected by

17     the investigation team, including, statements of survivors and witnesses,

18     and he examined artefacts found within the graves, including

19     identification documents, material related to the Dutch battalion, such

20     as Dutch military rations and Dutch newspapers.  From his examination of

21     the aerial imagery of the mass graves, Mr. Manning was able to determine

22     the time-frame in which the mass graves were created.

23             In addition, Mr. Manning reviewed the reports of various experts,

24     including fire-arm examinations of rifle cartridge casings found in and

25     around areas of mass graves and mass executions, analysis of soil and

Page 10160

 1     pollen samples from the primary and secondary graves, the analysis of

 2     cloth from blindfolds and cloth ligatures found in and around the bodies,

 3     as well as artefacts to determine the potential links between primary and

 4     secondary graves.  Using the reports of various experts, Mr. Manning was

 5     able to organise the evidence establishing links between the primary mass

 6     graves and secondary mass graves and set them out in a summary form.

 7             Mr. Manning prepared reports summarising the most significant

 8     findings from the exhumation sites.  In his reports from 2000, 2001, and

 9     2003, he set out the exhumation and autopsy process and described the

10     basic process by which material was examined by the experts.  In 2003,

11     Mr. Manning reported that the remains of 2570 individuals had been

12     identified, primarily using anthropological criteria and the mass graves

13     exhumed by the ICTY.

14             In 2007, Mr. Manning prepared an updated report that took into

15     account the most current state of knowledge in relation to those graves

16     and, in particular, the number of individuals positively identified by

17     the ICMP through DNA analysis.  In this updated 2007 report, Mr. Manning

18     concluded that 4010 individuals exhumed by the ICTY had been identified

19     using DNA analysis.  This figure did not include surface remains or mass

20     graves that were exhumed by the Bosnian Commission.  In consultation with

21     the experts working in the field, Mr. Manning also reported that the

22     majority of the victims exhumed from ICTY Srebrenica-related mass graves

23     ranged between 20 and 50 years of age.  He also reported that the

24     majority of the victims died of gun-shot wounds, although the cause of

25     death was not ascertainable in all cases.  Mr. Manning testified that the

Page 10161

 1     teams did not recover any item which gave clear indication that the

 2     victims were affiliated with any religion -- excuse me, Mr. Manning

 3     testified that the teams did not recover any item which gave a clear

 4     indication that the victims were affiliated with any religion other than

 5     the Islamic faith.

 6             During the course of his work, Mr. Manning conducted a physical

 7     examination of each artefact and reviewed the associated records,

 8     including photographic logs, autopsy reports, and field notes.  He

 9     reported that a total of 448 blindfolds and 423 ligatures were found in

10     the ICTY graves exhumed during the time-frame of his work.

11             All right.

12        Q.   And, Mr. Manning, can we start the questioning, and I -- for your

13     knowledge and as the Court will recall, we have now heard from all the --

14     I think most all of the archaeologists and anthropologists.  We've heard

15     from Mr. Janc who has updated your work, we've heard from Mr. Ruez, so

16     the Court is very familiar with much of this material.  But if we could

17     hit some of the -- some of the high points, I think it will assist the

18     Court, especially as it relates to the ongoing cross-examination.

19             But, first of all, you've been out of the UN for a while now.

20     Can you tell us what your current position is and go back in time for us.

21        A.   Your Honours, I'm currently the senior police liaison officer for

22     the Australian Federal Police based in Dubai.  I represent the Australian

23     law enforcement efforts in the Middle East, including north Africa.  I've

24     held that position for a year.  Prior to that, I was the team leader

25     responsible for the Australian Federal Police maritime people smuggling

Page 10162

 1     investigations.  Prior to that, I was a -- a member of the management

 2     training team at the Australian Federal Police college, responsible for

 3     senior management training within Australia which was also delivered in

 4     China, Indonesia, and Singapore.  Immediately prior to that, having left

 5     the Tribunal I went to New York where I was employed as a senior

 6     investigator with Mr. Folcker investigation of the United Nations Oil for

 7     Food programme and the Secretary-General.

 8        Q.   Thank you for that update.  And from the previous testimony and

 9     my summary, we've learned that as the co-ordinator for exhumations you

10     oversaw the hand-over of remaining mass grave locations to the

11     Bosnian commission and ICMP.  Can you just explain for that -- explain

12     that just a -- briefly for us.  What did that involve?

13        A.   Your Honours, prior to the hand-over, the ICTY held

14     responsibility for the exhumation of all the Srebrenica mass-related

15     graves and execution points and were conducting a programme to

16     forensically examine each of those sites with the aim to provide evidence

17     to support the indictment and trials.  A decision was made that the

18     responsibility for the examination of those graves and the recovery of

19     the victims would be handed to the Bosnian authorities.  I assisted in

20     preparing a memorandum of understanding in which we effectively handed

21     over responsibility for those graves to the Bosnian Commission for

22     Missing Persons who would be assisted for ICMP and for the first year was

23     monitored by an ICTY team of a forensic anthropologist, archaeologist,

24     and a scene-of-crime officer, and I oversaw the work of that team and the

25     exhumations which were conducted initially by the Bosnian Commission for

Page 10163

 1     Missing Persons.

 2        Q.   And can you tell us was there a difference in focus from the ICTY

 3     exhumations and study and the Bosnian Commission exhumations and study?

 4        A.   Your Honours, the exhumation programme by the ICTY was extremely

 5     extensive with the aim of collecting not only the bodies from the mass

 6     graves or the execution points but also the evidence, all the physical

 7     evidence that we could obtain.  The Bosnian Commission, on the other

 8     hand, were focussed predominantly on recovering the bodies, taking them

 9     from the graves for autopsy with the ultimate aim of identifying bodies

10     and returning the remains to the family.  So they were -- much more

11     focussed on the recovery of the bodies.  We were focussed on the recovery

12     of the bodies and evidence.

13        Q.   Okay.  And briefly touched in the summary on this topic, but can

14     you explain how it was that when a mass grave was -- was opened, how did

15     you determine whether or not from -- from the contents in the grave at

16     first whether it was related to the Srebrenica events and not some other

17     wartime event or civilian event?

18        A.   Your Honours, the process was co-ordinated by professional

19     anthropologist, archaeologists, and we were part of that process, but the

20     first order of business on opening a mass grave would be to determine, if

21     we could, any link to Srebrenica or any other crime.  The bodies would be

22     initially examined for identification material.  We would seek to remove

23     the wallets and the identification documents, and in all the graves that

24     I examined or was part of examining, we would find an identification

25     which either indicated the person had lived or was born in Srebrenica or

Page 10164

 1     that their name was on the ICMP missing list or that they there would be

 2     an artefact, a Dutch battalion item, or an item indicating that those

 3     people were from Srebrenica.  And once that was established the rest of

 4     the identifications in that material were taken from the grave and

 5     examined at the mortuary in more detail to confirm those links.

 6        Q.   All right.  And you were clearly an investigator and part of the

 7     investigation team.  Did you receive information outside the grave itself

 8     that connected any of these graves to the events?

 9        A.   Yes, I did.  Your Honours, the -- of course, the locations of the

10     graves indicated that they were in the area of Srebrenica and the events

11     that took place.  But predominantly we had survivor accounts, people who

12     had been part of the massacres and who had survived, who indicated where

13     the graves were or where the execution points were when they happened.

14     We also relied heavily on aerial imagery provided by the US government

15     which indicated an area, a disturbance in the ground, and a general date

16     and time of that disturbance.

17        Q.   All right.  And the Trial Chamber has heard a lot about primary

18     mass graves, execution sites, and secondary.  In fact, they have been to

19     many, many of the sites associated with this indictment.

20             They've also heard about the linkages between the primary and the

21     secondary graves from DNA from the bodies from Mr. Janc, but I would like

22     to go back in time before DNA when you were working, did your work

23     involve a -- any investigation into linking the primary mass graves with

24     the secondary mass graves?

25        A.   Yes, very much so.

Page 10165

 1        Q.   And can you tell us how you did that.

 2        A.   Your Honours, the primary mass graves, many of which had been

 3     opened up and robbed or the contents removed, indicated that they would

 4     be related to a secondary grave.  The process of exhuming the bodies

 5     identified material in the primary grave that could be linked to the

 6     secondary grave.  I assisted in the collection and the examination of

 7     shell cases, which linked a primary grave to a secondary grave.  I

 8     assisted Professor Brown in the collection of soil and pollen samples

 9     from the mass graves which indicated a link between a primary grave and a

10     secondary grave.  I assisted in the examination by Dr. Suzi Maljaars,

11     blindfold and ligatures, cloth blindfolds and ligatures, which again

12     matched primary to secondary graves.  And I also assisted in the

13     examination of materials such as green glass and bottle labels which

14     again linked a primary mass grave to several secondary mass graves.  The

15     work of the archaeologists and the forensic team was to try and, amongst

16     other things, determine what we could use to link or to exclude links

17     between primary and secondary mass graves.

18        Q.   All right.  And I know this is detailed in your report for each

19     of the graves and that was the subject of your, well, of your reports and

20     some of your prior testimony so I won't go into that, but can you give us

21     just an example, you mentioned shell casings.  Can you tell us

22     forensically what that involved, how you were able to match shell

23     casings?  In fact, first of all, where did you find shell casings?

24        A.   Your Honours, when you initially examine a mass grave, it's

25     de-mined and made safe.  Then the area is metal detected, predominantly

Page 10166

 1     to find shell cases or other material.  Those shell cases were collected,

 2     and as the grave was opened up and the top was scraped off you would find

 3     more shell cases and bullets.  And you would collect those, photograph

 4     them, record where they were in the grave, and as part of the process of

 5     examining those shell cases we collected them and conveyed them

 6     eventually to the US Department of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Fire-Arms.  They

 7     examined the shell cases, and I'm not a ballistics expert, but as the

 8     shell case is ejected from the weapon, the pin that strikes it and ejects

 9     it from the weapon makes a mark on the shell case.  That mark, when

10     examined microscopically, is unique to that weapon.  So if you take the

11     shell cases and you examine them and you compare those marks, you see

12     that that group of shell cases have the same mark; therefore, they're

13     from the same weapon.  They were fired by the same weapon.

14             That examination by Martin Als showed that in the primary grave

15     or on top of the primary grave, amongst the bodies, were shell cases

16     which had been fired from a particular weapon, and a secondary grave,

17     which was sometimes many tens of kilometres away, inside that grave was

18     shell cases which had exactly the same marking.  Therefore, they were

19     fired from the same weapon, either into or around the primary grave and

20     then some of them moved to the secondary grave, or perhaps

21     more unbelievable was that the weapon was fired at the primary grave and

22     then fired at the secondary grave.

23        Q.   And when you say more unbelievable why do you say that in regard

24     to that second comment?

25        A.   Well, particularly as the primary graves were established in

Page 10167

 1     July of 1995 immediately following or during the executions, and the

 2     secondary graves were created several months later, in September and

 3     October, opened up, filled with bodies and then sealed.  So you had a

 4     period of several months between when the shell cases were in the primary

 5     grave and would have then been placed in the secondary grave.

 6        Q.   Can you briefly tell us how or if the investigation was able to

 7     establish the time of the executions and creation of the primary graves.

 8        A.   Your Honours, again, witness survivor testimony gave us the

 9     creation dates or the execution dates and times along with -- perhaps

10     you've heard the evidence of Mr. Erdemovic in relation to two execution

11     points.  But also the aerial imagery provided dates and times for the, at

12     least the creation window for the mass graves, and also Professor Richard

13     Wright and a horologist examined wrist-watches from the graves which

14     indicated a time and date of death for those individuals.  So a

15     combination of those aspects identified the -- the date and in some

16     instances the time for the creation of those graves.

17        Q.   Were you aware of any, for example, Zvornik brigade engineering

18     documents that sent engineering equipment to any locations that helped in

19     this process?

20        A.   Yes, Your Honours.  There were vehicle logs which indicated

21     the -- or the work done by machinery in the areas that corresponded to

22     the mass graves.  The operators had indicated the time and date, their

23     travel from the base of operations to the mass grave-site, their work on

24     the site, and then return to base.  I also believe that there may have

25     been some radio intercepts which indicated date and time.

Page 10168

 1        Q.   All right.

 2             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we go to 65 ter 2187.

 3        Q.   And this, I hope, is one of your diagrams exhibiting some of what

 4     you have been talking about.  And we'll blow this up a bit more in a

 5     minute, but do you recognise this document?

 6        A.   Yes, I do Your Honours.  I created this map of primary and

 7     secondary graves, and the then established links to those graves.

 8        Q.   And because it's so small can you just -- and we'll blow it up in

 9     a minute, but can you just tell the Court what is this area north to

10     south that it covers?

11        A.   It extends from Zeleni Jadar in the south to Branjevo military

12     farm in the north, and out to the Cancari road mass graves.  It follows

13     effectively the Drina river, and if you see on the right-hand side of the

14     map was the Serbian territory and on the left-hand side was

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina with Srebrenica and Potocari towards the bottom of the

16     map.  From memory, I think it's about 80 kilometres from top to bottom.

17        Q.   All right.  Can we blow up basically the southern half of that

18     that will have Zeleni Jadar.  Yeah, that -- you can do it I think one

19     more time.  We just want -- we don't need Cancari on there.

20             Yes, that's great.

21             Now we see markings in red marked as primary mass graves.  Can

22     you just explain to us the basics of this and how it worked, what it's

23     telling us.

24        A.   Your Honours, I created the map to show predominantly the mass

25     graves or execution points, and you see those indicated in the map in --

Page 10169

 1     in red, and the green dots indicate secondary graves.  And in fact

 2     there's a grey point there which is a possible grave.  I then labelled

 3     the image corresponding to the names we called the graves, and the red

 4     lines indicate the links between the graves.  It's not necessarily the

 5     path that was taken.  It's simply that the bodies from the execution at

 6     Kravica warehouse were transported to Ravnice grave, which is between 6

 7     and 8 kilometres from the warehouse.  Also to the primary grave at

 8     Glogova 1 and 2, which is about 8 kilometres from the warehouse.  And

 9     ultimately from the Glogova graves to the Zeleni Jadar secondary graves.

10        Q.   Now I know it's detailed in your report and that you won't be

11     able to remember all the details.  We don't need that.  But can you give

12     us an example of how you came -- what evidence led you to connect, for

13     example, let's start with the Kravica warehouse to Ravnice, and can you

14     just briefly describe Ravnice?  I'm not sure the Court has heard a whole

15     lot about that.

16        A.   Your Honours, Ravnice is an area along a roadway with a steeply

17     sloping side and it was evident that bodies had been dumped down the road

18     way, down the embankment.  Initially some soil was taken by a mechanical

19     digger from the side of the road and dumped on the first load of bodies.

20     Thereafter, the bodies were simply dumped down the side of the roadway.

21     They fell down the hill and were caught up in trees and fence lines.  I

22     was present at the exhumation of initially Ravnice 1 and a considerable

23     amount of time I spent at Ravnice 2, which is effectively the same grave.

24     It was just labelled 1 and 2.  And within that area of grave we found a

25     number of physical artefacts from the warehouse.  The warehouse's

Page 10170

 1     construction is foam sandwiched between concrete and painted in a

 2     particular way.  We found pieces of those walls and doors and frames

 3     amongst the bodies.  We also specifically found a piece of foam lettering

 4     which was green and it could be physically matched to the lettering above

 5     one of the doors in the warehouse.  I think it said, in Bosnian,

 6     "otop" [phoen] or "otok," and you could physically see where the piece of

 7     foam had been removed or knocked from the building and it had been

 8     transported with the bodies to Ravnice mass grave-site.

 9             And with Glogova 1 and 2, we found a massive amount of artefacts

10     from the warehouse which showed that the bodies had been collected from

11     the warehouse, driven the 8 kilometres to the very large mass graves, and

12     dumped in those graves.  We found those similar artefacts including the

13     walls and parts of the doors in the Zeleni Jadar secondary graves.

14        Q.   All right.  If we could now go to the north half of --

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Before do you that.  I would like to ask a

16     question.

17             Ravnice 1 and 2, and Glogova 1 and 2, are those graves, mass

18     graves, the primary graves in relation to Kravica warehouse?

19             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.  The Kravica warehouse as an

20     execution point.  The bodies were then conveyed to Ravnice, which is on

21     the -- the left-hand side of the main road and also to Glogova 1 and 2.

22     So Ravnice, Glogova 1 and Glogova 2 are primary graves, which received

23     the bodies from Kravica immediately after they were executed.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And I take it that Zeleni Jadar is a secondary

25     grave.  Have there been found bodies only from Glogova 1 and 2 or only

Page 10171

 1     from 1 -- no, or 2 and not from Ravnice; is that correct?

 2             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, Ravnice 1 and Ravnice, if I can call

 3     it one grave, had no evidence that it had been disturbed, so the bodies

 4     were pushed down the side of the hill and left.  So no bodies that we

 5     could see had been removed.  Whereas Glogova 1 and 2, in September and

 6     October, had been opened up and very heavily dug and all those bodies

 7     that they could were removed.

 8             So Ravnice 1 was undisturbed; whereas, Glogova 1 and 2 were

 9     effectively emptied of much of their contents.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

11             Mr. McCloskey.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13        Q.   In that regard, the other markings in red Cerska, Nova Kasaba,

14     Konjevic Polje 1 and 2, Sandici, those are marked as primary mass graves

15     only.  Is that what you mean?

16        A.   That's correct.  The other graves are primary mass graves and

17     they have not been disturbed.  So, if you like, in that image the only

18     graves that have been disturbed are Glogova 1 and 2, and the others were

19     effectively as they were left by the perpetrators.

20        Q.   All right.  And we'll -- when we get to the -- some of the

21     secondary images for the secondary graves, we will go over to Glogova

22     because, again, that is something that the Court has not seen much of.

23     It was left out of Mr. Ruez's presentation.

24             All right.  If we could now go to the northern part, we're going

25     to -- yeah, we're going to need to take that one down a bit because we

Page 10172

 1     need Branjevo and Cancari now -- and the -- you have identified again in

 2     red the primary sites of Orahovac, Petkovci, Kozluk, and Branjevo Farm.

 3             Is it fair to say that in each of those four cases the

 4     archaeologists concluded that they were disturbed primary graves?

 5        A.   That's correct.

 6        Q.   All right.  Can you -- let's just start with Orahovac and tell us

 7     what -- what these arrows mean?  And just for your knowledge, the Court

 8     has been along the road of -- Cancari road and has been up and down this

 9     road by the Drina and to the sites of Branjevo Farm, Kozluk, the Dam, and

10     Orahovac.  I don't believe we got to the areas of Hodzici or Liplje.

11        A.   Your Honours, for Orahovac and the area, and remembering

12     that it's been updated somewhat since, the two Orahovac primary mass

13     graves are very close to each other.  They had both been heavily

14     disturbed and the links were made from those primary mass graves to

15     secondary graves; that is, graves that had been created sometime after

16     the primaries again by soil samples, blindfolds and ligatures and shell

17     cases.  So Orahovac 1 and 2 were disturbed.  The bodies were taken, and

18     at least some of them went to Hodzici road mass graves.

19        Q.   And during your period, were there -- were all of the known

20     secondary graves at Orahovac fully exhumed and examined?

21        A.   The majority of the Hodzici road graves were examined.  I believe

22     that number 1 we suspected had not been used.  It was examined by the

23     Bosnian commission and found to contain bodies, and I believe there may

24     have been a additional grave on Hodzici road examined by the

25     Bosnian commission.  But we worked through the Hodzici road mass graves.

Page 10173

 1     We had exhumed 3, 4, and 5 during our exhumations period.

 2        Q.   All right.  And let's go next to the dam.  Tell us a bit about

 3     that?

 4        A.   The mass grave at the dam near Petkovci had been built into the

 5     stone wall of the dam, and when it had -- when it was examined it was

 6     very thoroughly emptied and robbed of the contents.  We were able to

 7     examine the Liplje mass graves and match the rocks and the matrix of

 8     that -- of those secondary graves to the primary grave at the dam, so

 9     the -- some of the bodies taken from the dam were placed in the Liplje

10     mass graves, secondary mass graves.

11        Q.   And I know this is identified in -- thoroughly in your reports,

12     but besides the rocks from this constructed dam, do you remember any

13     other connections like you've talked about before?

14        A.   Your Honours, I'd have to check the report, but the soil and

15     pollen samples from the dam site matched those at the -- at the Liplje

16     site as well as the particular large boulders which formed the part of

17     the dam.

18        Q.   Okay.  And Kozluk, you've connected Kozluk down, if we see from

19     the arrows to two sites in your time along the Cancari road.  How did

20     that work?

21        A.   Your Honours, the Kozluk mass grave had been heavily disturbed.

22     The bodies taken from that grave.  When we examined the Cancari road

23     graves, the secondary graves, we saw that there were in the graves many

24     fragments of green glass, broken bottles, including bottle labels.  Those

25     same labels were at the Kozluk site which is actually a rubbish dump, and

Page 10174

 1     predominantly dumped there were broken glass bottles from the Vitinka

 2     bottling factory, which was nearby.  So the bodies, when they were

 3     executed, lay amongst the green glass, that green glass was picked up,

 4     taken to Cancari road where it was not otherwise present, and dumped

 5     within the secondary graves.

 6             We also had shell cases which matched.  Again, that examination

 7     showed that the same weapon was at the primary grave and in the secondary

 8     grave.  And cloth blindfolds and ligatures from the Kozluk mass grave

 9     were the same -- were indistinguishable from the ones in the secondary

10     grave.  So you had a great number of matches that showed that the Kozluk

11     grave, the contents had been placed into at least some of the Cancari

12     road graves.

13        Q.   All right.  And finally we have the Branjevo Farm and we see that

14     there's an arrow to least one site in that area of Cancari road.  Can you

15     just update us on those results.

16        A.   The primary mass grave at Branjevo Military Farm had been

17     extensively robbed.  And we located soil and pollen samples which matched

18     the site at Branjevo Military Farm within the secondary graves at the

19     other end of the Cancari road, so the soil and pollen were foreign to

20     that area.  And we also had blindfolds predominantly which were the same

21     at the Branjevo farm site on the bodies that had been left and the same

22     as -- on the bodies that were found in the Cancari mass grave, secondary

23     mass grave.

24        Q.   All right.  Now you've explained briefly how the dates of the

25     primary mass graves and executions were determined from the various parts

Page 10175

 1     of evidence.  How were you able to determine if -- if you were, the dates

 2     of creation of the secondary mass graves?

 3        A.   Your Honours, specifically, the aerial imagery provided the

 4     location and the creation date range for those secondary graves.  Most of

 5     them were in very remote areas and would have been very difficult to find

 6     without those images.  But they showed a date when the soil had not been

 7     disturbed and a date when the soil had been disturbed.  So within that

 8     window was when the secondary graves were created.

 9        Q.   And were you given aerial images for all the primary graves on

10     this particular exhibit?

11        A.   For the primary graves and for the secondary graves.

12        Q.   And did you make a careful analysis of the dates and provide

13     those materials in your prior testimony and in your report?

14        A.   I did, yes.

15        Q.   Okay.  Well, I'm not going to go through all that again, of

16     course, but I would like to use one or two examples, especially let's

17     start with Glogova, because that the Court has not seen, I don't believe,

18     aerial imagery in detail on.

19             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And that is 65 ter 1046.

20        Q.   Can you tell us a little bit about Glogova and -- you've

21     mentioned I think before that there was a couple of graves there.  How

22     does a -- what do you mean when you say a couple of pits or graves in the

23     Glogova area?

24        A.   The Glogova primary mass graves were about 8 kilometres from

25     Kravica.  You followed a dirt road, and on the left and right-hand side

Page 10176

 1     of the dirt road were very large mass graves, and again they had been

 2     disturbed.  So the graves were created by machinery and that was clear,

 3     and then had been opened up and very, very heavily dug and re-dug and

 4     then flattened out, and you can see that not only on the aerial image but

 5     also I could see that as a layman in the soil which is pointed out to me

 6     by the archaeologist.  You can see the disturbance in the soil and the

 7     teeth marks and wheel marks of the machines that dug the grave and then

 8     re-dug the graves.

 9        Q.   Okay.  And looking at this particular exhibit it says

10     Tatar-Bratunac.  Is that the Glogova grave as you know it?

11        A.   Yes.  Your Honours, the image is not very good, but if you see

12     the GL-1 mark on those images I placed those mark there on top of the

13     image.  It shows in July of 1995 an extensive area to the right of the

14     roadway which is in the middle that had been disturbed.  And then on the

15     right hand pane in October, you can see that it has been again disturbed

16     from what was like in July, so it was re-dug sometime prior to and

17     continuing on the 20th of October, 1995.

18        Q.   And you say you put in the yellow markings.  How about the

19     markings in white blocks, the grave exhumation, the dates, conclusion of

20     burial site, conclusion of excavator, conclusion of trench, who put --

21     can you remind us who put that information on this document?

22        A.   Your Honours, that was provided by the providers of the image,

23     the US government.  So effectively, all the white details are from them.

24     They called it Tatar-Bratunac area.  We knew it as Glogova, so we called

25     the grave Glogova 1 and I labelled it GL-1.  The rest is produced by the

Page 10177

 1     US government.

 2        Q.   And we see that disturbance of 27 of July and 20 October.  We

 3     have not gone into the dates prior to Srebrenica or around Srebrenica,

 4     but was there similar aerial photography that showed this area with no

 5     disturbance?

 6        A.   Yes.  And I would have to check the dates.  But there was imagery

 7     that showed that area undisturbed so that we knew that prior to at least

 8     the 27th of July on this image, there was an image that showed it was a

 9     bare field with some damaged houses and then we see the grave has been

10     created.

11        Q.   All right.  Let's go to 65 ter 1047, remembering that this image

12     is of 27 July and 20 October.

13             Okay.  Now we see an image of 30 October.  Does this have

14     anything to do with the last image, the location of the last image?

15        A.   Your Honours, it's a larger view of the same area.  If you see

16     starting at the bottom middle and moving up to the right a roadway, that

17     divides, if you like, Glogova 1 from Glogova 2.  Glogova 1 is the grave

18     that was shown in the previous image.  You can see very clearly that

19     there is a large amount of earth being moved and pushed right up against

20     the road, right up against the houses, and in that image you can also see

21     that Glogova 2 has been opened up and there is a very large amount of

22     digging happening.  You can see the tire tracks in this image, and you

23     can see that that mass grave has been opened up and the other mass grave

24     has also been opened up and looks to me as if it's been sealed.

25        Q.   Can you take the pen - maybe you'll get some help with that - and

Page 10178

 1     circle what tire tracks you're referring to?

 2        A.   Okay.  Your Honours, in this image, remembering that I'm not an

 3     expert in aerial imagery, but I can see it and I know what was on the

 4     ground.  If you look at Glogova 2, you can see parallel lines on that

 5     image.  I know them to be vehicle tracks.  And if you look on the GL-1

 6     image, you can see again parallel lines, and even in the other part of

 7     that image you can see parallel lines which have been displayed out where

 8     the machines have been pushing the soil.  And again from this image, I

 9     can match it to what I saw in the soil and in the exhumation which showed

10     those marks and the tracks of the vehicles.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  So I would offer this -- this image with the

12     three circles that he's drawn around the parallel lines into evidence,

13     Mr. President.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  It would be helpful if the witness could put

15     number 1 and number 2 and number 3 next to the three circles in the -- in

16     the order that you made these circles.

17             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  This marked aerial image

19     will be received as an exhibit.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this map shall be assigned

21     Exhibit P1820.  Thank you.

22             MR. McCLOSKEY:

23        Q.   All right.  Now, can we go to 65 ter 1089.

24             Now, I'll recall that you mentioned that -- in -- that the

25     Zeleni Jadar secondary graves were related or came from Glogova, based on

Page 10179

 1     your analysis.  And can you tell us -- well, we see again an aerial image

 2     marked as Zeleni Jadar.  Does -- you recall -- do you know what this is?

 3        A.   Yes, Your Honours.  The image is poor quality and I hope you will

 4     be able to see a better version.  But it's a split image.  So the image

 5     on the left was provided or taken on the 24th of August, 1995, and the

 6     one on the right is exactly the same area, except on the 2nd of October.

 7     If you see that band running across the middle of the image, there is a

 8     river, a small river in that area, and a roadway.  Now between the

 9     roadway and the river, in August, there's no sign of disturbance.  And in

10     October you can see a trench, a grave was dug.  I've visited that area

11     and walked through that area and examined it with Professor Wright, and

12     there was a pit dug there, and in fact we examined it and found that the

13     majority of the bodies had removed from that grave.  Therefore, meaning

14     that there was a third level or a tertiary grave somewhere.  But this

15     image effectively shows the creation window of dates for that secondary

16     mass grave which was created some several months after the related

17     primary graves were created of Glogova 1 and 2.

18        Q.   Now, you mentioned that you went there with Professor Wright and

19     that there there was a pit there.  Can you explain that?  Was there a pit

20     there when you got there or was that something that was determined?

21        A.   The -- the hole had been filled in and Professor Wright, an

22     archaeologist, examined it.  He concluded that there had been a hole

23     there which had been filled in and there were clear signs of disturbance.

24     He also indicated that there were scattered human remains throughout that

25     area and that those human remains were from more than one individual.  He

Page 10180

 1     concluded that had it -- had been a mass grave that had been dug up and

 2     then filled back in.

 3        Q.   All right.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And now let's go to 1090.

 5        Q.   This again -- what is this?

 6        A.   Your Honours, it's effectively the same area, the river running

 7     through the middle.  The grave on the bottom.  If you see those two --

 8     two labels, ZJ-2, I placed those on that image.  On 20th of October,

 9     1995, you can see the mass grave had been created, and in the other image

10     on the 23rd of October you could see that it's been effectively sealed,

11     and I've seen a better quality image than this.  So you can see the grave

12     opened or built on the 20th of October 1995, and on the right hand pane

13     the grave closed in and finished.  And that was reflected all along

14     Zeleni Jadar where you saw graves 1, 2, 6, or 7, created, dug and then

15     filled.

16        Q.   And in your previous testimony have you had photographs like this

17     of the majority, if not all, of the Zeleni Jadar graves so that this

18     process can be seen?

19        A.   Yes.  And in fact for the Zeleni Jadar 5 grave we used the same

20     sort of image to locate it.  And for the Zeleni Jadar 6 grave, I stood at

21     the grave with the archaeologists with that image, and that's how we

22     found the mass grave against the roadway in a field.

23        Q.   All right.  So I think the details of the other secondary graves

24     and the aerial images that go along with them are all in your report or

25     in your prior testimony; is that right?

Page 10181

 1        A.   That's correct, yes.

 2        Q.   Okay.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Can we go back to 65 ter 2187.  And that's the

 4     linkage map.

 5        Q.   But I just want it to be the backdrop of this next question which

 6     was the subject matter of some of your testimony last time and has been

 7     the subject matter of this case.

 8             Has, in your experience as an investigator, was there any

 9     evidence that any battle casualties from the column's departure from

10     Susnjari on through Baljkovica to Nezuk, was there any evidence that any

11     of those battle casualties or surface remains or unknown deaths were

12     placed in any of the mass graves?  And let's start with Glogova.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we could do what we did last time, just blow

14     up Glogova so they can picture where that is.

15             THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, my immediate answer is no.  There

16     wasn't evidence of battle casualties within any of the graves that are

17     depicted on this map.  I must admit, I was not involved in Sandici so I

18     can't say for Sandici.  In -- in person.  But particularly for Glogova 1

19     and 2, there were bodies within the graves which indicated that they had

20     been executed at the Kravica warehouse.  There wasn't -- there wasn't

21     evidence that they had been collected elsewhere.  There wasn't a

22     difference in the bodies that would have shown that they were collected

23     from this site, this site, this site, and dumped.  They were all

24     consistent and they were consistently surrounded by pieces of the

25     warehouse.  Glogova 1 and 2 are very large graves and the aerial images

Page 10182

 1     indicate that they were open for some time, and I am aware that one of

 2     the graves - I think it's grave L - was created after or at the end of

 3     the creation of Glogova 1 and 2.  That grave contained 12 individuals who

 4     had been bound and shot in the head and some in the chest, and they were

 5     placed at the edge of the Glogova 2 mass grave.  But, again, there was

 6     not, to my discussions with the experts and my examinations of the mass

 7     graves, indications that bodies from a battle had been placed in those

 8     graves.

 9             MR. McCLOSKEY:

10        Q.   Is it possible that if there had been some Muslims that had died

11     while crossing the asphalt road between Nova Kasaba, Konjevic Polje, and

12     Bratunac that those bodies could have been picked up and put in Glogova

13     without leaving a significant archaeological trace?

14        A.   Yes, that's possible.  Again I didn't see that and I'm not an

15     archaeologist but that's possible.  But given the nature of the site and

16     the remains, I would suggest if that happened it would be very few bodies

17     amongst the many bodies that were in those graves.

18        Q.   All right.  Let's go to the northern site, the northern sites,

19     if -- like you did before.  Thank you.

20             Now, again, any evidence that there were any battle casualties

21     put in the Orahovac primary graves?

22        A.   None, Your Honours.  Apart from the location of the Orahovac

23     grave which is, as I understand it, not immediately near the battles, the

24     individuals within the graves many of them were blindfolded.  We have a

25     witness account of the -- of the execution of the blindfolding from the

Page 10183

 1     school nearby and the individuals being taken to the mass graves.  We

 2     found a hundred or more blindfolds at that site which were not collected.

 3     We found blindfolds at the school where the witness described being

 4     blindfolded, and we found again the bodies within both those graves

 5     indicating that they had been executed in situ at that site and then

 6     buried there.  There was not an indication that they had been collected

 7     elsewhere and taken to that site.

 8        Q.   How about Petkovci?

 9        A.   Again, Petkovci is a remote location.  There was evidence from

10     numerous shell cases at the site that there had been an execution in that

11     area, but remembering that there were very few body parts at that grave.

12     In the related Liplje grave, there was no indication that the individuals

13     had been killed in battle.

14        Q.   And do you recall whether there were survivors that talked about

15     that?

16        A.   And again, I believe, there are two survivors, and you may have

17     heard from both of them, that described the execution.  The

18     transportation to the dam site, the lining up and the gunning that -- the

19     shooting down of those individuals at that site.  They didn't describe a

20     battle.  They were prisoners and they were executed at that site and

21     buried at that site.

22        Q.   And Kozluk?

23        A.   Kozluk, remembering that it's in the middle of a rubbish dump.

24     It's a field of -- of tons of broken glass next to the Drina river.

25     There's evidence that the individuals were shot there.  They were then --

Page 10184

 1     they fell onto the ground, the original surface, and then they were

 2     covered with soil.  We found bodies with bullet-holes through the bodies

 3     and in the ground beneath them bullets.  We found individuals who were

 4     bound and blindfolded, and we found an individual, to my recollection,

 5     who had clearly been shot and crawled away from the edge of the grave and

 6     was buried where he lay with his hand grasping a bush.  It was clear that

 7     those individuals were executed at that site and that they weren't battle

 8     casualties.

 9        Q.   And briefly, Branjevo military or Branjevo farm?

10        A.   Again, Your Honours may have heard the testimony of Mr. Erdemovic

11     who describes the execution of those individuals in the field at Branjevo

12     farm.  I believe we also have a survivor from that execution.  And again,

13     within that primary mass grave, and I indicate I wasn't present for the

14     exhumation of that grave, but I was for the related graves, there was no

15     indication that those bodies were from battle.  That they had been killed

16     in battle.  Rather, that they had been executed.

17        Q.   And you mentioned briefly, and I mentioned in the summary, your

18     conclusions of some numbers of blindfolds and ligatures.  Can you briefly

19     explain to the Court how you made your determination whether something

20     was a blindfold and ligature for your summary report on that?

21        A.   Your Honours, the exhumation who process had gone on for several

22     years, so you had people who worked in the field, people who worked in

23     the mortuary, and they changed over the years.  A blindfold or a ligature

24     might be seen on a body in the mass grave, and by the time it was

25     transported to the mortuary had fallen off the head or the wrists or,

Page 10185

 1     indeed, the body had fallen apart.  So you had a situation where the

 2     count of blindfolds at the grave was different to the count of blindfolds

 3     or ligatures at the mortuary.  I examined every single record that

 4     related to those blindfolds and ligatures.  I went to the -- I was

 5     present at most of the exhumations, but I also went to the written

 6     records, the photographs at the grave-site, the reports by the

 7     archaeologists and anthropologists and the photographs and reports at the

 8     mortuary.  I then physically examined each of those items, and if I could

 9     show that there was a blindfold on the head or near the face of an

10     individual, if I could prove that it was around a cloth with hair in the

11     knot of the blindfold, I would count it as a blindfold.

12             If, on the other hand, they had made a mistake and not

13     photographed that item and I couldn't definitively prove that it was a

14     blindfold or a ligature, I would discount it.  I would not count it in my

15     total.  So I was very conservative in my examination of the blindfolds

16     and ligatures, and I had a trial, if you like, to prove that that

17     blindfold was indeed on that body in that grave when it was located.  And

18     if I couldn't find that written or photographic proof, I put that

19     blindfold aside and said there was only 448 instead of a great many more.

20             An example is the blindfolds at Grbvaci school and at the

21     Orahovac-Lazete mass graves.  I've seen photographs of those blindfolds

22     and I've spoken to the investigators who saw them, but because I didn't

23     have them and I couldn't prove that they had been found on the bodies, I

24     discounted those, I think, 207 blindfolds.  So it is a very conservative

25     number.

Page 10186

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much for that explanation.

 2             Judge Nyambe has a question.

 3             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

 4             Actually, I have a number of questions.  Maybe I will start with

 5     the last one.

 6             In your testimony just now you have said something about some

 7     dying in battle or not in battle.  How do you determine whether a person

 8     was killed -- was killed in battle or not in battle?  How can you

 9     distinguish?

10             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, and I must advise you I'm not an

11     archaeologist or an anthropologist or a pathologist.  But where we saw

12     clear evidence that the person had been shot at an execution point, that,

13     to me, is evidence that they were not killed in battle.  An individual at

14     the Kozluk mass grave-site had their wrists bounds behind their back and

15     they were shot and you can see that that body had fallen forward on the

16     ground and then were buried in that position.

17             So clearly, to me, those individuals were executed.

18             The other individuals within that grave who perhaps did not have

19     a blindfold or a ligature didn't show any difference.  They didn't show

20     that they had been blown up by a mine and scooped up by a machine and

21     dumped into the grave.  Or that their arms and legs had been held and

22     they'd been thrown into the grave.  If you saw casualties picked up from

23     a battlefield, you would expect to see that sort of information reflected

24     in the graves, and it wasn't.  The mass graves, the execution points,

25     contained bodies and individuals that indicated that they had been

Page 10187

 1     executed, not that they had been fighting and had been shot in -- in 20

 2     different locations through the Bosnian country-side and then collected

 3     up.

 4             If that happened with a machine, I would expect to see the

 5     machine scoop the body up and dump it in a truck.  So you would have soil

 6     from that location.  You would have soil from that location, et cetera.

 7     We didn't see that.  We saw the bodies either executed there or dumped

 8     into the mass graves, say at Glogova, and that consistency and the

 9     presence of blindfolds, the presence of ligatures, the witness testimony,

10     and the testimony of the executioners indicate to me that they weren't

11     battle casualties, that they were, in fact, prisoners who had been

12     murdered.

13             JUDGE NYAMBE:  So if somebody was shot in battle and dumped in

14     the grave, they have not been executed.  You can tell that they have not

15     been executed?

16             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, and I'm conscious that I'm not an

17     archaeologist, or a pathologist, if, for instance, at Kozluk which is in

18     a remote location where there is no battle, there is no fighting going on

19     there.  If someone had brought a body from elsewhere to that site, I

20     would expect to see a difference in that group of bodies.  If they

21     brought one body, we wouldn't know that that person was not executed.  If

22     they brought ten bodies, you would expect to see when those bodies were

23     collected that a -- say they collected them with a machine.  You would

24     expect the machine to scoop up those ten bodies and dump them in a truck,

25     so they would have a layer of soil which would be different to Kozluk.

Page 10188

 1     It wouldn't -- certainly wouldn't be the same.  If they'd picked those

 2     bodies up and thrown them in the back of a truck and then driven them to

 3     Kozluk and then dumped, you would see a tangle of ten bodies or a hundred

 4     bodies in that area of the grave.  You would see that they had been

 5     dumped in the grave, or you would see that they had been thrown into the

 6     grave.  We didn't see that.  At Kozluk we saw them executed and falling

 7     where they were shot.

 8             Does that assist, Your Honour?

 9             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Yes, thank you.

10             My next question is in relation to your testimony at page 25,

11     lines 8 to 10, where you state:

12             "From this imagery, I can match it to what I saw in the soil and

13     in the exhumation which showed those marks and the tracks of the

14     vehicles."

15             How soon after the exhumations did you have an opportunity to

16     visit the sites?

17             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, for Glogova 1 and 2, those mass graves

18     were created in July of 1995 and disturbed in October, September/October.

19     I was present at the opening of both those graves, which would be four

20     years later.  So the graves had been created then covered up.  I came in

21     with the archaeologists who then painstakingly removed the soil, and in

22     the soil I could see those tracks.  So from when they were initially

23     buried to when I saw them would be in the region of four years -- three

24     to four years continuing over a -- I think a two-year period.

25             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.  How many mass graves were you

Page 10189

 1     personally involved with?

 2             THE WITNESS:  For the Srebrenica -- Srebrenica mass graves?

 3             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Yes, yes, yes.

 4             THE WITNESS:  At least 11 where I had a significant involvement,

 5     where I was either the one who -- who found the grave with the assistance

 6     of the imagery or I was present when it was opened or I was present for

 7     several weeks, and the majority of the other graves which hadn't been

 8     exhumed by the time I had arrived, I visited.

 9             So 11 mass graves I had a significant involvement with, and the

10     majority of the others I had visited or I had gone to after they had been

11     exhumed or before.

12             JUDGE NYAMBE:  One last question, if you will excuse me.

13             How did you exactly know where these graves were located for you

14     to start the process of exhumations?

15             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, in some instances we had the witnesses

16     who told us, the survivors who told us where they were.  By the majority

17     of times, I held an image in my hands from the US government and we would

18     go to that site, and you see, for instance, the Glogova road, you would

19     see that road.  So I would stand there with the image and we would say,

20     Right, we think it's there.  It matches to being there.  The

21     archaeologists would then examine the area, and then they would scrape

22     the soil from the area.  And very often you would see the shape of the

23     grave.  You would see the outline of the hole that was dug, and when you

24     dig a hole and fill it in, you can see that, and also the fluids would

25     leak from the bodies and form a dark stain in the soil, and we would see

Page 10190

 1     that.

 2             But to give you an idea, even with the aerial imagery, standing

 3     from here to the -- to the next table away, we could sometimes not find

 4     that grave.  In one instance we had the image, we had a tree where we

 5     thought the grave was near, we had the road and we missed it, and it took

 6     us 24 hours of digging to find the edge of the grave.  And as soon as we

 7     saw the soil with the discolouration, as soon as we saw shoes and

 8     clothing we knew we'd found the edge of the grave.  We took the surface

 9     off and you could see the grave and the staining from the bodies, and

10     then we would start digging that grave.  So predominantly looking at the

11     aerial imagery and showing that imagery against the ground and what it

12     related to.

13             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you very much.

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think it is the time for our first break.

15             We adjourn and resume at 11.00.

16                           --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

18                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey, please continue.

20             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Yes, Mr. President, I have no further questions.

21             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

22             Judge Mindua has a question for the witness.

23             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.  Before the

24     cross-examination, I wanted to have some clarification from you.

25             You played an important role in the investigation because, if I

Page 10191

 1     look at today's transcript, page 35, line 16 -- lines 16 and 17, you

 2     state that you were among the first ones to find, to discover, the mass

 3     graves.

 4             My question would be as follows.  Have you found bodies on the

 5     surface of the mass graves as well?  This is what I like to know.

 6             Please go ahead.

 7             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  In fact, if I can just

 8     point out, we found the mass graves, as in we located them.  But,

 9     effectively, in many cases we knew where they were beforehand.  We knew

10     that they were in that location.  So when I say "we found them," it was

11     the process of saying that area is a mass grave, and then we confirmed

12     that that was a mass grave.

13             But as to surface remains, at the majority of the mass graves we

14     did not find surface remains.  The individuals were well-buried

15     underneath the soil, several metres of soil.  In Kozluk, when I first

16     visited the site, there were human remain remains that were visible from

17     the soil.  There was a leg and an arm and another leg sticking out of the

18     soil, and I believe the reason was that that area had been eroded, that

19     the body had appeared from rain.  And underneath that was several hundred

20     bodies.

21             At Orahovac 1, there was a single body which was on the surface,

22     and it became evident that that body had been pushed against a fence by

23     the digging machine that had dug up the grave.  You could see the tracks

24     of the machine pushed the body and the soil out of the grave and onto the

25     surface.  And we found that when we started examining the body -- the

Page 10192

 1     mass grave.

 2             But, in the majority of graves, except Ravnice, the bodies were

 3     well buried.  In Ravnice, the majority of the bodies had been thrown down

 4     the embankment.  So they were open to the elements and they were

 5     completely skeletonised.

 6             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 7             What would be your idea of the proportion?  What proportion would

 8     there be of remains at the surface and remains in the mass graves?

 9             THE WITNESS:  In Kozluk, we saw maybe three body parts and within

10     that grave there were at least 350 bodies.  At Orahovac there was one

11     single body and there was several hundred within the mass grave.  So in

12     the mass graves we saw very view surface remains, 1, maybe 2 per cent,

13     less than 1 per cent, except for Ravnice which was all surface remains in

14     that they had been pushed down the hill-side and were on the surface.

15             I'm not sure if that is -- answers your question.

16             JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  I'll keep it

17     at this for the moment.

18             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, now it's your turn to examine the

20     witness.

21             THE ACCUSED:  [No interpretation]

22             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters can't hear the accused.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There must be a technical problem.  We don't

24     receive interpretation.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter's note that they can't hear the


Page 10193

 1     accused despite the microphone being on.

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, could you please try to use the

 3     other microphone for a moment?  There seems to be a technical problem.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Can you

 5     hear me now?  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, we received interpretation, that means the

 7     interpreters understand you.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Peace unto this house

 9     and may this day in court -- may God's will be done in these proceedings

10     and may the outcome be as God wishes and not as I wish.  I welcome

11     Mr. Manning and I would appreciate his assistance in uncovering the

12     truth.

13                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

14             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Let me start, Mr. Manning, from some of the points that were

16     raised during the examination-in-chief.

17             Judge Mindua has just asked you about surface remains.  His

18     question was whether it was easier to find bodies that were on the

19     surface or in the ground.

20             On page 37 of the transcript, your answer was that you found one

21     body in Orahovac and three in Kozluk so a total of four individuals next

22     to the mass graves.  Are you referring only to the mass graves at

23     Orahovac and Kozluk, were you referring to only those in this answer of

24     yours or did you have in mind the whole of the 11 mass graves that you

25     uncovered?

Page 10194

 1        A.   Your Honours, I was referring to all the ICTY mass graves in that

 2     they were graves that were dug into the soil and the bodies were placed

 3     into them.  The reason there were surface remains from both those graves

 4     that I mentioned was a part of that burial process.  I was not discussing

 5     remains that may have been located in areas outside the mass graves.  I'm

 6     only speaking about the mass graves that the ICTY located, more than 11

 7     mass graves.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us how many surface remains you found

 9     from among these 11 mass graves that were investigated by the ICTY?

10     Thank you.

11        A.   Your Honours, in relation to 11 mass graves, but in also the

12     other 44, the ones I've mentioned, three body parts at Kozluk and one

13     individual on the surface at Orahovac.  I don't recall other surface

14     remains amongst the mass graves.  The mass graves had been dug and

15     sealed, and in those that had been disturbed had been re-dug and

16     re-sealed so that the remains were not laying on the surface but were

17     under the ground.

18        Q.   I apologise if I am repeating the question.  But can you tell us

19     the exact number of surface remains you found in all of the 55 graves

20     that were located without going into any extensive explanation?  Thank

21     you.

22        A.   Speaking about the ICTY graves, and I think when we left, we were

23     at the point of 44 mass graves, I would say that surface remains were

24     located at two of those graves.  One individual at Orahovac.  And parts

25     of three, perhaps, individuals at Kozluk.  No more.  That I can recall.

Page 10195

 1        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Manning.  Can I therefore conclude that you found

 2     a total of four bodies on the surface close to the mass graves that you

 3     investigated?  Thank you.

 4        A.   Your Honours, and Mr. Tolimir, I'm trying to be accurate.  I can

 5     say one body, certainly at Orahovac.  And parts of what I believe to be

 6     three bodies at Glogova.  And I say "believed" because we didn't remove

 7     those bodies when we first saw them.  We exhumed Glogova -- sorry, Kozluk

 8     as a mass grave, so those remains that were sticking out of the ground

 9     were probably later identified as complete bodies.  But I can only say

10     that there were human remains visible on the surface of Kozluk which

11     looked like three individuals.  And when we came back several months

12     later to conduct the exhumation, that's when the entire mass grave was

13     exhumed and those body parts were collected as part of that exhumation

14     process.

15        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Manning.  In addition to the locations you

16     describe just now, namely, Kozluk and Orahovac where you found one body

17     at Kozluk and three body parts at Glogova, was there any other grave or

18     any other location where you found surface remains?  Thank you.

19        A.   Your Honours, I am aware that the Bosnian commission found

20     another, I believe from memory, 12 bodies on the surface at Kozluk nearby

21     the mass graves.  I wasn't part of that process.  And I believe that

22     collections of surface remains were made by the Bosnian Commission for

23     Missing Persons and the ICMP.  The ICTY did not collect body parts or

24     surface remains but concentrated on identified or located mass graves.

25        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Manning.  Can you tell us where the 12 bodies that

Page 10196

 1     were found on the surface were ultimately located and are they numbered

 2     among all the others killed at Glogova?  You said that where they were

 3     killed that's where their bodies fell.  Where were they ultimately

 4     buried, these bodies?

 5        A.   Your Honours, I'm referring to Kozluk.  We exhumed the Kozluk

 6     mass grave.  We removed all the bodies from the -- from the mass grave

 7     itself, and I'm not talking about Glogova.  We -- or I was aware that

 8     there were other areas of disturbance around the mass grave that you

 9     could see from the images.  Myself and other investigators spoke to

10     Mr. Murat Hutic from the Bosnian Commission for Missing Persons.  I

11     indicated to him that we did not find surface remains but that he could

12     perhaps look wider from the mass grave, and he subsequently did so.  He

13     found a number of bodies, and I would -- I would be guessing to say

14     several hundred metres from the primary mass grave that we'd exhumed but

15     certainly in the area.  But I wasn't involved in that process.  I believe

16     he found the bodies because we had told him that there were other tyre

17     tracks and disturbances in the area, and he searched the area and found

18     those bodies.

19             As to where they are now, they would have been part of the DNA

20     process undertaken by ICMP and the Bosnian Commission and, hopefully,

21     they've been returned to the families, but I believe that they have been

22     linked through DNA to the Srebrenica massacres.

23             I believe it's 12, but I would have to check the report.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Manning.  Was it easier to find bodies that were

25     buried several metres into the ground, as you said, or was it easier to

Page 10197

 1     recover the surface remains?  Thank you.

 2        A.   Yes, it would have been easier to recover the surface remains.

 3     Digging a mass grave is a very lengthy and expensive process.  That was

 4     not our focus.  The collection of surface remains was not our focus.  But

 5     it is easier to pick up surface remains but many of the surface remains

 6     would have been in areas that were inaccessible that perhaps were in

 7     minefields, and spread out over many square kilometres.  We concentrated

 8     on mass graves that we knew existed, particularly those that were

 9     connected to execution points, but our focus was not to collect surface

10     remains.  Had we found them we would have either collected them or we

11     would have advised the Bosnian Commission for Missing Persons.  An

12     example is Ravnice.  Surface remains were located I think by the SFOR

13     troops.  They pointed them out to us.  We examined the site and because

14     of the -- the high number, we exhumed that grave.  As I say, we

15     concentrated on mass graves, not on surface remain, which were not

16     present at our mass graves.

17        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Manning.  Can you tell us how many bodies were

18     found on the surface in Ravnice after you were referred to that location

19     by the SFOR, as you said?  Can we have the number, please.

20             THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, I'd have to check my report.  And I

21     don't recall.  I think it was about 140, 150, but because the bodies were

22     broken up, that count would be best obtained from the DNA analysis of

23     those remains because the bodies broke up.  From my recollection I think

24     150, but that number would have been better determined since I left the

25     Tribunal.

Page 10198

 1        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Manning.  Can you indicate a location that was

 2     closest to Ravnice where the surface remains were found?

 3        A.   Your Honours, I am not sure that I understood the question.  The

 4     Ravnice grave-site, and we called it that for -- for ease of reference,

 5     was in the area of Ravnice, it was on a dirt track to the left of the

 6     main road running past the Kravica warehouse, and it stretched for

 7     several hundred metres along the side of the road.  It wasn't in a

 8     village.  It was on a roadway between, I think, Hodzici in the Ravnice

 9     area.  It was very close to the Kravica warehouse.  From memory, you

10     could -- you could see the warehouse from an area near the mass grave.

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Manning.  Tell us, since we've now established

12     that this is close to Kravica and one was able to see the Kravica

13     warehouse, can you tell us what the cause of death of the individuals

14     found on the surface was found to be?  Was it the result of fighting or

15     execution?  Thank you.

16        A.   Again, Your Honours, I'd have to check my report for the specific

17     numbers.  I believe the majority had been killed by gun-shot injury.

18     There was also blast injury as in grenades injuries.  I believe we found

19     some evidence of -- of charring on the bodies.  And that has to be linked

20     to the large number of artefacts from the Kravica warehouse which

21     surrounded those bodies.

22             If you're asking me as to the cause of death, those bodies were

23     killed whilst in the Kravica warehouse and their bodies were then dumped

24     at Ravnice.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Are you referring to the surface remains found at

Page 10199

 1     Ravnice or the remains found in a grave there?  Thank you.

 2        A.   Your Honours, Ravnice, if that's a road, and that's an embankment

 3     running down to a small stream, trucks had driven along that road and

 4     dumped the bodies at an angle down the -- the embankment.  At this end,

 5     they had been covered by soil, a small mechanical scoop of soil.  The

 6     rest of the bodies had simply been pushed over the edge.  To refer to

 7     them as surface remains I believe would indicate that they were spread

 8     over an area where they'd been killed.  These were dumped in an area.

 9     They were pushed over the edge and there was a collection of bodies, most

10     of which hadn't been covered with soil.  To my definition, that's a

11     grave, an open grave.  But you -- if I may, you should see the Ravnice

12     site as a grave rather than a collection of surface remains.  The bodies

13     were pushed together, they were poured out of a truck, and they'd

14     collected against trees and against fence lines.  The skulls in many

15     cases had fallen off and rolled down the hill, and the bodies, whilst

16     clothed, were skeletons.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Tell us, at a later date, through the exhumation and

18     DNA analysis, did you establish that the bodies had their skulls found in

19     the primary grave at Kravica?  Thank you.

20        A.   No.  From my recollection, there was no connection from the

21     Ravnice to the Glogova mass graves.  And when I refer to the skulls

22     falling off and rolling away, they moved 20 metres from the bodies.

23        Q.   Thank you.  I wasn't mentioning Glogova, from what I remember.

24     My question was:  Did you find these bodies together with the other

25     bodies of those killed at Kravica?  Thank you.

Page 10200

 1        A.   The people, the men and boys were killed at Kravica warehouse,

 2     they were loaded onto trucks, and they were transported to Ravnice along

 3     with parts of the warehouse, and those bodies were not then removed.  And

 4     the rest of the bodies were picked up in trucks and driven to Glogova 1

 5     and 2, where they were dumped.

 6             So Ravnice, once the bodies were dumped there, was left alone,

 7     until we exhumed it.  The bodies in Glogova 1 and 2, from the warehouse,

 8     were initially buried and then unburied and taken to the secondary

 9     graves.  So the bodies in Ravnice would not have been transported to

10     Glogova.  They would, however, have been taken from the Kravica warehouse

11     which was not a mass grave but an execution point.

12        Q.   Mr. Manning, what I'm not clear on is why we have this

13     misunderstanding.  You were just mentioning the bodies in Ravnice.  What

14     I'm asking you is:  The surface remains at Ravnice, were they bodies that

15     were exhumed or were they on the surface?

16        A.   Your Honours, the bodies, some of the bodies at Ravnice were

17     covered by soil, intentionally covered by soil.  We came and we took the

18     soil off and we recovered the bodies.  The rest of the bodies had not

19     been covered by soil, so we recovered those bodies by removing the soil

20     that washed onto them over the years, by removing the bushes and the

21     trees and finding the body parts that had fallen down the hill.

22             So we say we exhumed that mass grave, even though a proportion of

23     that mass grave was open to the air.

24             Does that -- I'm trying to explain that the Ravnice grave was a

25     dumping ground for bodies from the Kravica warehouse.  Part of it was

Page 10201

 1     covered with soil, but the rest of it was simply a dumping ground where

 2     tens of bodies were pushed over the side of the ledge, of the embankment,

 3     and collected down the hill-side.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  If the bodies were pushed downhill, were they in a

 5     grave or on the surface?  Thank you.

 6        A.   Your Honours, it's a mass grave.  A mass grave of 150 people

 7     where the bodies are touching is a grave, as far as I'm concerned.  And

 8     I'm not sure if I -- I understand the question.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I think you received at least three

10     times the exact ... received at least three times the exact description

11     of the understanding and the observations of the witness of this site,

12     where bodies were found.  Some under soil, some uncovered.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Judge Nyambe has a question.

15             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Actually, I just need a clarification.

16             When is a place a grave?  When it has been dug up and bodies --

17     or bodies put in it, or any place where you find a body becomes a grave?

18             THE WITNESS:  Your Honour, I don't believe so.  But when we're

19     talking about mass graves, and in this instance multiple bodies, if you

20     look at the Cerska grave, the men were shot by the side of the road and

21     then they fell and they simply took soil from the side of the road and

22     covered them up.  That's clearly a grave.  Even though they weren't dug,

23     a hole was not dug and they weren't put in the hole, they were covered by

24     soil.

25             For the Ravnice grave, I believe it is a mass grave, in that part

Page 10202

 1     of the bodies were covered by soil.  A hole wasn't dug.  The bodies were

 2     pushed down the slope and some of them were covered by soil.  The rest

 3     weren't.  But that collection of bodies is the same event, so it's the

 4     same group of bodies, and I think that could you have a situation where

 5     you put 500 bodies in a pile and did not cover them up, and I - and I'm

 6     not an expert anthropologist or archaeologist - I would still describe

 7     that as a grave, as a collection of bodies in one spot.  Had none of the

 8     bodies at Ravnice been covered by soil, perhaps we would have called it

 9     something different.  But it was a -- it was a spot where a significant

10     number of bodies were dumped in the one location, some of them were

11     covered with soil.

12             JUDGE NYAMBE:  Thank you.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

15             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Please, Mr. Manning, the grave at Ravnice, is it considered by

17     you or the OTP as a grave, a grave-site, or as a location of surface

18     remains?

19        A.   It's considered by the ICTY, the OTP, as a grave-site, and it's

20     referred to as an exhumed mass grave.

21        Q.   Thank you.  So the OTP does not treat it as a location of surface

22     remains.  Yes or no?

23        A.   The OTP treats it as a mass grave.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Since you don't need a lot of time to find surface

25     remains, and since before the discovery of the mass graves you talked to

Page 10203

 1     many witnesses who could tell you about them, please tell us why surface

 2     locations were not investigated, locations that witnesses talked about?

 3        A.   When I came to the Tribunal, the Tribunal had already established

 4     the exhumations team with the intention of exhuming mass graves.  The

 5     surface remains, at that time and continuing, were being collected by the

 6     Bosnian commission.  And we're talking about several hundred square

 7     kilometres where bodies were located.  The Tribunal made a decision to

 8     exhume mass graves, particularly where those mass graves were linked to a

 9     witness account of an execution.  We had Mr. Erdemovic saying he executed

10     hundreds and hundreds of men at the Branjevo Military Farm and that there

11     was a mass grave there.  As part of the investigation of that incident,

12     and Mr. Erdemovic's story, we exhumed the mass grave.

13             We were collecting evidence to support or to -- or to prove that

14     the offence didn't happen or that the offence happened in a certain way.

15     And we're talking about genocide where men and boys were blindfolded and

16     tied up and shot, and the evidence of that was in those mass graves.  The

17     collection of surface remains was carried out by other agencies.  I can

18     only say that the ICTY made a decision to exhume the mass graves and to

19     investigate the killing of those men and boys.

20        Q.   Mr. Manning, do you consider every murder genocide or only the

21     murders that you talked about where you found a certain number of binds

22     and blindfolds and the number which is 880 of which 448 were for the head

23     and the rest for the hands?  Did these same people have blindfolds as

24     well as -- and were their hands tied at the same time?

25        A.   To answer your question in relation to genocide, no.  Every

Page 10204

 1     murder is clearly not a genocide.  The finding of a genocide was made by

 2     one of the Courts here at the Tribunal, and that was the investigation

 3     that we were part of.

 4             Yes, some of the individuals were blindfolded and were tied.  I

 5     would have to check my report.  Some individuals not only blindfolded but

 6     had their hands tied behind their backs.  Some had their hands tied

 7     behind their backs.  Some had blindfolds but were not bound.  I think two

 8     individuals had their legs tied.  In the Cerska grave, I think 31 out of

 9     33 had their wrist wrists tied -- sorry.  At Cerska I think it was up to

10     100 out of the 150.  But I would have to check my reports for specific

11     numbers.

12        Q.   Thank you.  But since you're an investigator and since it's up

13     for the Court to decide what's genocide and what's not, is it appropriate

14     for you as an investigator to decide what's genocide and what isn't?

15        A.   Your Honours, I'm not sure I quite understand the question.  I

16     understood that in several verdicts a genocide charge for Srebrenica has

17     been upheld.  But I, as an investigator, investigated an allegation of a

18     genocide, an allegation of mass killings, an allegations of crimes

19     against humanity and of war crimes.  That was the investigation I was

20     part of.  Since that time, the events of Srebrenica have been defined by

21     a court, several courts as genocide.  I don't claim to make that

22     assertion.  I was investigating a genocide, but I don't claim that I

23     classify as a genocide outside the Court's decision.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Manning.  Now you mentioned crimes against

25     humanity and against peace.  During your work and during your

Page 10205

 1     investigations, as you said, you mentioned all the crime, did you find

 2     any crimes against peace?  Thank you.

 3        A.   I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.

 4        Q.   Have you heard in the UN Charter that there is something called a

 5     crime against peace?  Thank you.

 6        A.   I -- I'm going to have to say no.  I'm not quite aware of an

 7     offence that's a crime against peace.  I'm aware of crimes against the

 8     peace, of crimes which relate to disorder.  But, I'm sorry, I'm missing

 9     the point.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Since you don't understand what I'm trying to say,

11     you did not investigate crimes against peace in Srebrenica and in the

12     other areas where you were engaged as an investigator of the OTP?

13        A.   It -- Your Honours, if you mean offences committed against other

14     people, not the Srebrenica victims, do you mean offences committed by the

15     Muslims of Bosnia or the Croats of Bosnia?  Is that what you mean?

16        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Manning.  I have no right to say what I think.  I

17     only have a right to ask the my questions, and if you can, you will

18     answer them.

19             My question, the following one, is this:  Is it the same people

20     who are responsible both for peace and for war?

21        A.   I -- I don't think I can answer that.  I investigated allegations

22     specifically related to Srebrenica and the killing of men and boys.  I

23     also assisted other teams in the investigation of offences where Serbs

24     were victims, particularly one team I assisted in their investigation of,

25     I believe, Naser Oric.  But I can't answer your question as to are the

Page 10206

 1     same people responsible for peace and for war.  I'm sorry.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Please tell us this:  In the former Yugoslavia where

 3     you investigated, among others, Srebrenica, did Yugoslavia disintegrate

 4     as a result of the will of the people living in it and who waged war or

 5     was this conceived by forces outside the territory of Yugoslavia?

 6        A.   Your Honours, I simply can't answer that question.  My opinion as

 7     to how the war started or who was involved, is simply that.  I'm not a

 8     historian.  I'm sorry, I can't answer.  If you want my opinions as a

 9     layperson I can give them, but I can't answer that question.

10        Q.   Thank you.  That's not what I want.  I merely wanted to know what

11     you investigated.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please look at D151 in

13     e-court, please.  Thank you.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  This is confidential exhibit should not be

15     broadcast.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You need your microphone.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Mr. Manning, please look when this document was drafted.  In

21     paragraph 1 it says:  "On 20 July 1996, an unknown person came," and we

22     will not say his name, "to the commission for gathering facts on war

23     crimes."

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the accused please repeat his question.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  There was no question yet, I think.

Page 10207

 1             What is your question, Mr. Tolimir?  It is not recorded.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   I said, Mr. Manning, was this witness heard before you started

 5     investigating crimes because he was heard on the 20th of July 1996?

 6     Thank you.

 7        A.   I'm not familiar with this particular statement.  I would have to

 8     check whether I know the individual.  I'm sorry, I haven't seen that

 9     statement before.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If he is going to be asked about this individual

12     and this statement, he should be allowed to read the entire statement

13     because I think it becomes very clear from the statement.  So if -- if

14     he's interested in that, I think he should be allowed to read it to help

15     refresh his recollection.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed, if Mr. Tolimir is continuing to put

17     questions in relation to this document.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

19             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   I asked whether Mr. Manning started his investigations before the

21     20th of July, 1996.  He doesn't need to read the statement for that.  Can

22     he answer my question of whether he started his investigations before the

23     20th of July, 1996?  Thank you.

24        A.   Your Honours, I did not.  Because I joined the Tribunal in

25     August of 1998, and I continued thereafter the work of the Srebrenica

Page 10208

 1     team.  But from my knowledge of the team, I know that the investigation

 2     of the Srebrenica genocide started at the time the offences were

 3     occurring and immediately thereafter.  Mr. Ruez was involved in the

 4     investigation from July of 1995, and certainly from the end of that year,

 5     when he was able to access the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  But for

 6     myself, I didn't start investigating this offence until August 1998.

 7        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Manning.  So we can say that after this statement

 8     was given you started working as an investigator.  Should you be familiar

 9     with this statement as an investigator, as this is a statement which

10     talks about bodies and where these bodies can be found?  Thank you.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

12             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Now that he has referred to the statement and

13     he's referred to material in it that's probably on, let's hope, on the

14     next page or two, it would be appropriate if the witness could be allowed

15     to read the statement.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Have you had the opportunity to read the first

17     page now, in the courtroom?

18             THE WITNESS:  Sorry, Your Honour.  If you mean I can read it now,

19     yes.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes.  Please do.  Go ahead.

21             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Then we could turn to the next page.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, please.  Let's look at page 2.

24             Could we look at the third paragraph which is relevant.  Line 7

25     in paragraph 3, that is line 4, I quote --

Page 10209

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Which paragraph is it in English?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Paragraph 3, paragraph 4 in

 3     English.  Thank you, Aleksander.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And could the witness -- it's probably a

 6     relatively short statement, before he is asked questions about part could

 7     he be allowed to read the whole since it is apparent that General Tolimir

 8     wants to ask him questions about this document.  This is a -- well, I

 9     won't say anything further.

10             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Sir, please read whatever you want to familiarise

11     yourself -- [Overlapping speakers] ...

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I just want to ask

13     him questions about a relevant paragraph, but I don't object him to

14     reading if we're going to waste time.  However, I wanted to ask him

15     questions only about a relevant paragraph.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  You were referring to two paragraphs, the first

17     one of it starts with the words:  "As we made our way through the

18     direction ..." and so on, and the next paragraph; is that correct?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Since

20     you are reading the English version I wanted to show exactly what you

21     quoted and I quote the relevant paragraph.  It's paragraph 3 in the

22     Serbian language, line 4:

23             "From there, we headed towards Pobudjanska-Kamenica where we met

24     with part of the first group.  But the Chetniks surrounded us there and

25     opened fire on us, killing over 300 people and wounding a large number.

Page 10210

 1     We were in disarray as both soldiers and civilians fled wherever they

 2     could while the wounded were left behind on the path."

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   My question based on this quote:  As an investigator, did you

 5     know about this piece of information that the OTP received in July of

 6     1996?  Thank you.

 7        A.   Your Honours, I can't specifically remember reading this

 8     document.  I have certainly read a similar account, and I have probably

 9     read this document.  It -- it is familiar to me that parts of the column

10     were attacked and that individuals were killed.  I accept that the

11     Tribunal was aware of that sort of material.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

13             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Your Honour, if he is to allowed the whole

14     document I think he would be able to provide a better answer.  But since

15     he has only read part of, he could only provide part of answer.  And I

16     know this document very well, so I know that it's not -- it's not just --

17     irrelevant.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think Mr. Tolimir knows this document as well

19     and should conduct his examination as he wants, and we will give way to

20     that.

21             Mr. Gajic.

22             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I just wanted to say

23     that the questions put by Mr. McCloskey could be left for his

24     re-examination.  But he should not suggest Mr. Tolimir want to do during

25     his cross-examination.

Page 10211

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We should not go on in this way.  I would like to

 2     invite Mr. Tolimir to continue his cross-examination.

 3             Mr. McCloskey, I see you on your feet.

 4             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If I may speak just briefly, Your Honour.  This

 5     is normal discussion, believe me.  The question was:  Do you remember the

 6     document.  The document is of four or five pages.  It could be the most

 7     memorable part of the document is the last page that's not been shown to

 8     the witness.

 9             So to get a fair answer out of the witness to do you remember the

10     document, he should be able to see the whole document.  It's a smart -- I

11     don't intend to -- to determine what questions he asks.  But when he asks

12     do you remember the document to probably a four- or five-page document,

13     that refers to the entire document, and so he, in my view, should be able

14     to view the whole document.

15             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think the witness provided Mr. Tolimir with an

16     answer to that question.

17             Go ahead Mr. Tolimir.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I didn't

19     ask whether he remembered but whether this document was written before he

20     started investigating the events and before they became known to the OTP,

21     and he replied I might have read it.  But I don't want to waste any time.

22     It's just a relevant piece of information that this particular witness

23     saw 300 killed and many more wounded.

24             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Can you tell us where these people were buried?  Yes, that would

Page 10212

 1     be my question.  Thank you.

 2        A.   No, I cannot.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us why the Prosecution did not

 4     investigate information that was familiar to it?  Where they would have

 5     needed less money and fewer teams when they went to investigate graves.

 6        A.   Your Honours, I don't believe it's fair to say the Prosecution

 7     did not investigate.  Clearly we would take statements from individuals,

 8     we would conduct inquiries, conduct investigations.  In this instance,

 9     and I would need to check, I don't believe that we located those bodies.

10     But, remember, we were examining, as part of an exhumation project, mass

11     graves.

12        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Manning.  My question is:  Do you perhaps know in

13     which mass grave these surface remains were later buried, the remains

14     that this witness talks about, these 300 people killed and many more

15     wounded?  Thank you.

16        A.   Your Honours, I was not part of that process, but I would

17     suggest, from what I know, that those remains have been collected by the

18     Bosnian Commission for Missing Persons and have been or are being

19     examined for DNA and matched to Srebrenica victims or whomever.

20             The answer to the question is that those individuals on the

21     surface were - I hope - collected by the Bosnian Commission for Missing

22     Persons and the families reunited with those bodies.

23        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Manning.  During today's examination-in-chief, you

24     said that you were present when international pathologists and

25     anthropologist handed over to the Bosnian side the remaining graves.

Page 10213

 1     Were surface remains - the surface remains that you're talking about

 2     now - were they also handed over to them?

 3        A.   Your Honours, to be specific, the remains weren't handed over to

 4     the Bosnian commission.  Responsibility for the named mass graves was

 5     handed to the Bosnian commission, and, in fact, it wasn't anthropologists

 6     or archaeologists, it was the OTP, produced a document, I wrote it, which

 7     said:  You are hereby responsible hereafter for the exhumation of these

 8     identified mass graves and the exhumation and examination of other mass

 9     graves that you may find connected to the Srebrenica case.

10             I also, in a separate process handed bodies over to the

11     Bosnian Commission for Missing Persons, and the responsibility for the

12     examination of surface remains, I can't comment on whether that was a

13     responsibility handed to the Bosnians by the OTP.  I was involved in the

14     mass grave process and not the collection of surface remains.

15        Q.   Thank you.  On page 16 of today's transcript, in line 5, you said

16     that the International Court - and you said the International Court -

17     handed over, that is, made a decision for the continuing work and the

18     exhumations be left to the Bosnian government.

19             Do you recall that?

20        A.   Your Honour, yes.  I don't think I said "International Court."

21     But the responsibility for the continuing exhumation of the mass graves

22     was handed to the Bosnian authorities by the OTP, by the Office of the

23     Prosecutor, and I suppose by the ICTY.

24        Q.   Thank you.  I owe a correction.  It was page 10, line 5.  Thank

25     you for your answer.

Page 10214

 1             My question is:  Could you please tell us now who made the

 2     decision that this responsibility for the exhumations be transferred to

 3     the national team of Bosnia and Herzegovina from the international teams?

 4        A.   Ultimately by the Prosecutor, the Chief Prosecutor for the

 5     International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia; I believe at

 6     that stage, Madam Del Ponte.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, just for clarity of the record, on

 8     page 10, line 5, the witness is recorded to having said:

 9             "Your Honours, prior to the hand-over, the ICTY held

10     responsibility for the exhumation of all the Srebrenica mass-related

11     graves," I think mass graves, related, "and execution points and were

12     conducting a programme," and so on and so on.

13             He was referring to the ICTY, in particular.

14             Please carry on.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you,

16     Mr. President.  In light of this, I would like to ask the witness this.

17             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Was it the International Court that had jurisdiction until now,

19     that is the ICTY, or was it the OTP that decided to transfer

20     responsibility from the international courts to the national courts in

21     Bosnia?

22        A.   Your Honours, I think it's difficult to answer in that way.  The

23     OTP is an organ of the ICTY, is part of the ICTY.  Ultimately the

24     decision was made by the ICTY that we not continue with the exhumation

25     process, that it be handed over to the Bosnian authorities and to the

Page 10215

 1     International Commission for Missing Persons.  So ultimately the decision

 2     was an ICTY one.  I can't now recall whether that was driven by the OTP,

 3     whether it was a decision made in the UN.  I can't recall the process of

 4     why that decision was made, only that I was tasked with drawing up the

 5     agreement that said, These graves and these sites are now your

 6     responsibility, and we would like to monitor that process.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Since you wrote the agreement whereby the

 8     responsibility was transferred to BH teams, and you said a moment ago

 9     that this decision was made by Madam Del Ponte, in order for us to know

10     exactly who made the decision, is there a written decision on the

11     transfer of responsibility from the ICTY to the -- BH?  Thank you.

12        A.   Your Honours, there's a document which exists.  I can't recall

13     who signed it, but it's an agreement for that hand-over.  Perhaps the

14     chief of investigations signed it.  Perhaps it was signed by

15     Madam Del Ponte; I can't recall.  It exists, and it's available, I

16     assume, within the Tribunal.

17        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Manning.  What I'd like to know is if the document

18     states based on whose decision the OTP transferred responsibility onto

19     the BH authorities?  Thank you.

20        A.   Your Honours, I'd have to check the document.  I didn't take that

21     decision.  I don't believe the chief of investigations took that

22     decision.  Ultimately, a decision of that nature would have been approved

23     and taken by the Prosecutor, the Chief Prosecutor.  We need to check the

24     document.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Please, when you have an opportunity to do so, during

Page 10216

 1     your testimony, if you could check and see what the document states on

 2     this score.

 3             This is my next question.  Do you know -- thank you.

 4             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. Manning is, of course, no longer employed,

 6     and the Court -- we can try to always go into the archives of

 7     Ms. Del Ponte to determine if there -- such a document exists and perhaps

 8     request New York's permission to get it.  We'll look.  So -- but, of

 9     course, Mr. Manning is not in a position to do that.  But we can

10     endeavour to do that.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you for this clarification.

12             Mr. Tolimir.

13             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Manning.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

16             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   We thought that this could be found among the papers which make

18     up Mr. Manning's statements and reports.

19             At any rate, do you know Jean-Rene Ruez?  Thank you.

20        A.   I do.

21        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber if he worked as your predecessor

22     or did you work for the OTP of this Tribunal at the same time?  Thank

23     you.

24        A.   Mr.  Ruez was my direct supervisor when I arrived at the

25     Tribunal.  I worked for him for a number of years.  He left the Tribunal

Page 10217

 1     and I then worked for another team leader.  I worked for Mr. Ruez and

 2     with Mr. Ruez for three, three and a half years.

 3        Q.   Can we now show 1D100 in e-court, page 7, lines 8 through 18.

 4     This is from the Krstic case.

 5             Before I put my question, I ought to tell you that

 6     Mr. Jean-Rene Ruez testified in the case against Mr. Krstic and stated as

 7     follows.  I quote -- and I would also circle the village of Bare.  It's

 8     been taken off my screen and I wasn't able to continue reading.

 9             So let's see what he said in lines 8 through 17 in that

10     particular case and before that Trial Chamber.

11             So I'm quoting from line 8.

12             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  And now we need the English version.  Which page,

13     which line?  Can you help us?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Yes, that's 595, line 8

15     in both versions.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  In e-court that is page 7.  Thank you,

17     Your Honours.

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Please, once again.  It was not heard by the

19     interpreters and the recorder.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  English translation, that is page 7 in e-court.

21     Thank you, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

23             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   I wish to thank Mr. Registrar.

25             Let's see what Mr. Ruez said in his testimony of this case:

Page 10218

 1             "This area has been processed in 1996 by a team of experts from

 2     Finland who were operating in that area in 1996, totally disconnected

 3     from our activities.  They were collecting surface remains.  But it's

 4     important to note that 600 bodies have been collected in that area.

 5     These are bodies of victims killed in combat, in ambushes, in shelling,

 6     and possibly also in other circumstances which are impossible to sort out

 7     between -- I mean, for us, at least, between combat and other

 8     situations."

 9             Based on what I've just read out, this is my question:  Were you

10     aware of this extent of Mr. Ruez's testimony, of what he is talking about

11     here?  Thank you.

12        A.   Your Honours, I was aware that surface remains had been

13     collected.  From my memory, I didn't realise it was the Fins.  I was not

14     involved in that process.  It was two years before I started.  I was

15     generally aware of it but it was not part of my investigation.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, for the record, I note that this

17     document is not in the list of potential exhibits to be used with this

18     witness.

19             Please carry on.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is a reference

21     to a witness who testified in this case, but we -- in the future, we will

22     notify you of this too.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is the purpose of these lists, to -- to

24     enable the other party and the Chamber to prepare.

25             Please carry on.

Page 10219

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, for your

 2     guidance.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Manning, do you know what became of these 600 surface remains

 5     who were a result of combat?  Where were they ultimately buried and where

 6     were their bodies and artefacts exhumed?  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  That is a misstatement of what Mr. Ruez said.  He

 9     is leaving out part of it, the key part of it, in my view.  He should be

10     not -- he shouldn't make a misstatement like that.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed, Mr. Ruez, in this document, said:

12             "For us, at least, it was not possible to -- it was impossible to

13     sort out between combat and other situations."

14             And now you are only referring to combat.

15             Please rephrase your question.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  Thank

17     you, Mr. McCloskey.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. Manning, this is my question:  Do you know where these

20     surface remains are buried, in what grave?  Thank you.

21        A.   Your Honours, remembering that I wasn't involved in this process,

22     I can say that the surface remains collected were stored for many years

23     in Tuzla in salt mines, in the tunnels that previously were used as salt

24     mines.  I saw many of those body-bags and collections of bodies.  They

25     were not reburied in that process.  They were examined and eventually

Page 10220

 1     returned to the families, those that could be, and then buried in

 2     individual graves, I assume.  The -- to my knowledge, the bodies

 3     collected as surface remains were stored in Tuzla by the

 4     Bosnian Commission for Missing Persons.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Manning.  Since they were taken to Tuzla from the

 6     location they were found at, at Bare, can you tell us, were they listed

 7     in your reports as missing, or -- or those executed?  Thank you.

 8        A.   The bodies referred to by Mr. Ruez were not counted in my

 9     reports, and I have limited knowledge about what happened to them.

10        Q.   Do you know if DNA analysis was made for any of the bodies

11     recovered at the location in Bare we've just referred to?  Thank you.

12        A.   I don't know that specifically, but the Podrinje Identification

13     Project and ICMP intend to DNA register every human remain that was

14     located right across Bosnia.  So, yes, they would be examined.  They may

15     already have been; I don't know.

16        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Manning.  Since you don't know but you say that it

17     is possible that they were registered, is there a list of these 600

18     individuals with their first and last names in the cases where they were

19     identified?  And were all DNA identifications entered into the lists

20     drawn up by anthropologists and matched against the lists of those who

21     had gone missing or were killed in relation to Srebrenica?

22        A.   I don't know in relation to the bodies referred to by Mr. Ruez,

23     but ICMP and the Bosnian commission are examining all the remains, and

24     those identified as coming from Srebrenica or elsewhere are included on

25     their list of identified bodies from the Bosnian conflict.  I can't

Page 10221

 1     answer your questions in relation to these bodies because I wasn't

 2     involved in that process.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Did you have occasion to see the report from the

 4     Finnish experts who worked on this?  And, to your knowledge, can such a

 5     report be found in the possession of the OTP?

 6        A.   I don't recall reading it.  I may have done.  We're talking 12

 7     years or more.  I don't recall, but I may have read it.  It may be in the

 8     possession of the OTP.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  I have no further need of this document.  I have just

10     one last question related to this issue.

11             Is it possible that these individuals, too, once they were

12     identified, were entered on the list of those who had gone missing in

13     relation to Srebrenica?  Thank you.

14        A.   Yes, it's possible.

15        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Manning.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at P170.  I

17     apologise if this document was not notified in advance.  This is

18     Dusan Janc's report from 2010, page 43, where he, too, refers to surface

19     remains.  That's page 43 in English and 60 in Serbian.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Indeed, it is not in your list.

21             Mr. Gajic.

22             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] My apologies, Mr. President.  Let me

23     use this opportunity before the document appears, the questions related

24     to this document arose during the OTP's examination-in-chief.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.

Page 10222

 1             Please carry on, Mr. Tolimir.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Gajic.  Thank you,

 3     Mr. President, for your understanding.

 4             Can we look at paragraph 2 of the document in Serbian, and it is

 5     the corresponding paragraph 2 in English.  It reads, and I quote, this is

 6     the report by Mr. Janc:

 7             "The analysis establishes that 688 Srebrenica-related individuals

 8     in total have currently been identified from 961 surface remains cases.

 9     This figure consists of 653 identified persons on the February 2010 ICMP

10     update together with 35 identified persons on the surface remains data

11     only (see surface remains portion of confidential Annex D).  The 653

12     individuals from the ICMP update were determined to be surface remains

13     based on their case IDs, which correspond to the case IDs found in the

14     surface remains data (ERN X018-9698-X018-9712)."

15             Let's look at footnote 3 that he refers to.  It says:

16             "35 identified persons included in the surface data cannot be

17     found on the March 2009 ICMP update.  In addition, three of the

18     identified persons included in the surface remains data appear to have

19     gone missing in 1993," et cetera.

20             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   This is my question:  Can you tell us, were there cases in the

22     documents that you looked at and which you received from the Bosnian side

23     and other bodies and commissions working on the recovery of victims that

24     individuals from 1993 had been included this those lists?

25        A.   No, not to my knowledge.  Again, I'd have to check, but I don't

Page 10223

 1     recall being provided with data which related to 1993.  I would have

 2     requested data from Srebrenica from 1995.  So, no, not to my knowledge.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, we must have our second break now.

 4             And we will resume at 1.00.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Yes, Mr. Tolimir, please continue.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Hello, Witness.  We will resume.

11             We were looking at the portion of Mr. Janc's report where he

12     numbered the surface remains.

13             My question is this:  Were all these surface remains found by the

14     individuals who found them on the same spot where they were lying all the

15     time?  Thank you.

16        A.   I'm sorry, I can't answer that question.  I wasn't involved in

17     the collection of those bodies.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Let's look at the last paragraph on page 11 in

19     Serbian which says -- or can we have the previous page back, please.  My

20     mistake.

21             Can we have the page we were on before back on our screens?  And

22     in English too.  Thank you.

23             It's page 60 in Serbian and 43 in English.  I'm reading from the

24     last paragraph:

25             "The locations where Srebrenica-related surface remains have been

Page 10224

 1     collected are consistent with the locations through which the Muslim

 2     column leaving from Susnjari ... was passing?"

 3             And then he goes on to list the areas:

 4             "Pobudje, (Bratunac-Konjevic Polje); next, Baljkovica (Zvornik);

 5     next Snagovo, also close to Zvornik; and other locations, other areas

 6     outside the above-mentioned areas but still relatively close to them?"

 7             This is my question:  Were these surface remains counted together

 8     with those individuals who were recovered from the mass graves when it

 9     came to DNA analysis?

10        A.   Your Honours, not in my report, or my reports.  I've not read

11     Mr. Janc's report.  He may have done so, I did not.  I did not count the

12     surface remains, except, from memory, the individuals at Kozluk which we

13     were discussing earlier.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Does this mean that the remains referred to by

15     Dusan Janc were not discovered at the time when you were involved in

16     investigations and that it was only when he was producing this analysis

17     in 2010 that these remains were referred to?  Thank you.  Yes, the year

18     was 2010, thank you.

19        A.   In fact, in my report from the ICMP data, I referred to

20     collections of surface remains.  I think I even indicated the areas and

21     the abbreviations for those surface remains, but I did not count those

22     surface remains and I did not include them in the report.  This report

23     I'm not familiar with.

24        Q.   Thank you.  All these missing persons listed in the records of

25     the commission and the international committee which dealt with the lists

Page 10225

 1     and identification, were they all contained in your reports at the time

 2     when you appeared as a witness in the Krstic case?

 3        A.   My initial reports dealt with the number of victims within the

 4     mass graves, and that was an anthropological assessment.  My 2007 report

 5     dealt with the bodies from those mass graves which had been identified

 6     via DNA.  I did not include other lists.  I included the numbers of

 7     Srebrenica-identified individuals who were located in Srebrenica-related

 8     mass graves.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  In view of this answer, this is my next question:

10     You were the chief investigator of the ICTY in the Srebrenica-related

11     cases; is that right?

12        A.   No.  I was one of the senior investigators.  There was a team

13     leader above me, and I was a member of the team, and specifically I was

14     involved in the co-ordination of the exhumation investigation areas.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Who chose the title of your operation, i.e., Casper?

16     Why was this particular name chosen, if you know?  Thank you.

17        A.   I don't know.

18        Q.   Do you know if there was such a name used at the time when you

19     were the senior member of the investigations team?

20        A.   Yes, Your Honours.  The team was known as Casper.  I don't know

21     why it was called Casper.  It was referred to as Team 6 in those days, or

22     the Casper Team.

23        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Manning.  Can you tell us briefly what were the

24     duties you performed as an OTP investigator in searching for potential

25     witnesses or perpetrators of crimes?

Page 10226

 1        A.   In addition to the exhumations responsibilities, I was a general

 2     investigator.  I would seek to identify witnesses, take statements from

 3     them, examine crime scenes, show photographs to witnesses.  I was

 4     involved in the interview of suspects.  I was involved in search

 5     warrants, looking for evidence.  General investigative duties, including

 6     the interview of witnesses and suspects.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Please, Mr. Manning, tell us, the majority of the

 8     reports you produced for the OTP, do they have to do with forensic

 9     evidence as you stated in the Popovic case at transcript page 18905,

10     lines 13 through 22?  Where you state, and I'm quoting you.  You say that

11     you helped experts who were preparing for their work.  You asked what it

12     involved, and your answer was:

13             "In certain occasions, I would accompany experts on field trips

14     to various grave-sites or I would attend exhumations at -- of mass

15     graves.  I would give them information that was available to the OTP out

16     in the field or in the morgue.  Essentially, I had access to all the

17     information we had in various files.  The exhumations started in 1996 and

18     went on until 2001.  Thus, I had an overview of available information of

19     all the locations and other relevant information."

20             Based on what you stated in the Popovic case, at page 18905, tell

21     us this:  When you say that you provided experts with various

22     information, can you tell us specifically what the information was about?

23     Thank you.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I think it would be fair to have that part of the

25     testimony of the witness on the screen.  This is 65 ter 06765.  That is

Page 10227

 1     the public version.  Page 18905.

 2             THE WITNESS:  Your Honours, to give -- to give you an example, in

 3     relation to Dr. Anthony Brown, I provided Dr. Brown access to the

 4     grave-sites.  He collected soil samples and pollen samples and he used

 5     that in his investigations.  I would have also provided him with

 6     documentation related to the exhumation, when it occurred, who -- the

 7     expert reports that he would need to make his report.  I did a similar

 8     thing with Professor Wright when it came that he had left the Tribunal

 9     and needed to write his reports.  He would ask me for the information,

10     the copies of documents, the copies of photographs, CDs, et cetera, which

11     allowed him to write his report.  He produced the reports, and I put

12     those reports into evidence.

13             I did that with all the experts.  For instance, Suzi Maljaars,

14     Dr. Maljaars, from the Netherlands forensic institute, I provided her

15     with the blindfolds and cloth ligatures, and she provided me with the

16     report which I had translated and then I examined that report.  So that

17     sort of assistance was what I provided to the experts.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Manning.  Based what you said, I would like to ask

20     this:  Did you tell the experts only about your information of forensic

21     nature, or did you also provide them with information about the events in

22     Srebrenica 95 and tell them the position of the OTP on what happened

23     then?

24        A.   I think, sir, you [Realtime transcript read in error "I"] may be

25     suggesting that I could influence the experts.  That's not the case.  I

Page 10228

 1     provided them with the information.  They produced their reports based on

 2     that information.  If they were to ask me information in relation to

 3     where Srebrenica was or where the graves were, factual information, I

 4     would provide it.  I didn't provide them with the OTP's view of what the

 5     evidence should be.  I provided them with the information for which they

 6     then produced their independent reports to the Tribunal, which they

 7     later, in several trials, discussed and presented to the Court.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  So that I can ask my next question, please tell me

 9     what your powers were in relation to the anthropologists and the

10     pathologists?  Thank you.

11        A.   I'm not sure I understand the question.  They were employed as

12     experts by the Office of the Prosecutor.  I worked with them.  They

13     were -- say, the chief archaeologist was in charge of the exhumation

14     project from an archaeological point of view.  I was in charge of the

15     investigation point of view.  I would be treated as an equal.  But he

16     would look after his people.  Same with the mortuary; the chief

17     pathologist was in charge of the mortuary, and then I would assist him

18     and his team with whatever they needed.  And if there was a dispute, and

19     there sometimes was, the matter would be raised with the OTP and it would

20     be decided by the OTP.  And by "dispute" I mean if we indicated that we

21     wanted this grave done because of some scheduling and they wanted to do

22     another grave because of their interests, that sort of matter, if it

23     couldn't be sorted out would be referred to the Tribunal.  But I was not

24     their supervisors, if that's what you meant.

25             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would like to clarify one thing on the record.

Page 10229

 1     Page 73, line 25, it is written here:

 2             "I think, sir, I may be suggesting" --

 3             I have to wait for a moment.

 4             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  "I think, sir, I may be suggesting that I could

 6     influence the experts."

 7             I understood you in a different way.  I heard you saying:

 8             "I think sir, you may be suggesting that I could influence the

 9     experts."

10             THE WITNESS:  That's correct, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That's correct.

12             THE WITNESS:  That's correct.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

14             Mr. Tolimir, I don't want to forget it.  You used the document

15     1D100.  This is the testimony of Mr. Ruez in the Krstic trial.  This is

16     now listed as the last document in your list of exhibits to be used with

17     this witness.  Are you tendering this part of the transcript?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr.  President.

19             I would like to tender it as an exhibit, if possible, and then I

20     would ask some questions -- I would ask some further questions.  Thank

21     you.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  In relation to that exhibit, I -- otherwise, I

23     would ask you if you are tendering only that page you have shown to the

24     witness or the, altogether, I think nine or ten pages of that transcript?

25             Mr. Gajic.

Page 10230

 1             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we would like to

 2     tender all ten pages of the transcript, since it's difficult to

 3     understand that single paragraph without the rest of it, especially

 4     without what's on the previous pages.  We believe that this will not be

 5     too many pages and it's clear from the transcript which page was used and

 6     why.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.  This document will be

 8     received as an exhibit.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this document shall be assigned

10     Exhibit D166.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you.  Please carry on, Mr. Tolimir.

12             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Manning.  Please tell me who managed or

14     co-ordinated the work of the anthropologist and pathologist; that is, who

15     was in charge of the organisation of the work at the time when you were

16     engaged in this matters?

17        A.   Your Honours, there was a exhumations team which was normally

18     headed by a chief archaeologist.  He would then have a team of up to 40

19     individuals working for him in the field.  He would control those people.

20     At the mortuary, there was a chief pathologist who was in charge of the

21     mortuary, and he would control those people and they would work to him.

22     And he would produce a report detailing the work.  The chief

23     archaeologist would produce a report detailing the work of his team.  I

24     acted as a co-ordinator of those efforts and represented the interests of

25     the OTP and the investigation across those two areas.

Page 10231

 1        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Manning.  Can you tell me why, then, it was that

 2     when the anthropologist presented their report they said, Ask such and

 3     such an investigator about this?  Thank you.

 4        A.   If I understand you correctly, no, the chief anthropologist or

 5     pathologist, for instance, Dr. Clark would say to me from his base in

 6     Scotland, Could you provide me with the following information, could you

 7     provide me with the photographs from body 200, et cetera, et cetera, and

 8     I would provide that material to him to assist him in producing his

 9     reports.  I was a conduit between the OTP and the experts, and I was also

10     able to provide them with information related to, say, previous expert

11     reports or previous exhumations in which they were not involved.  So

12     Professor Wright might say to me, I wasn't involved in X exhumation, X

13     exhumation, can you tell me when that happened and provide me

14     photographs.  That was the nature of my assistance to them, as well as

15     taking them into the field, when necessary, such as Professor Brown.

16        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Manning.  Bearing in mind what you said, please

17     tell me whether your task or job also included telling these teams where

18     surface graves were found or located and to tell them about the fact that

19     the OTP had registered them as such graves?

20        A.   The OTP exhumations team were not examining surface remains.  I'm

21     sorry, you'll have to be more specific.

22        Q.   Thank you.  I don't want to guess, so please tell me who examined

23     surface remains then?

24        A.   As I've indicated, surface remains were generally collected by

25     the Bosnian Commission for Missing Persons, ICMP, and, as you pointed

Page 10232

 1     out, a Finnish commission.  We were exhuming mass graves that I have

 2     discussed.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Did you have a report that was compiled by the

 4     Swedish commission, and did you have the reports by the

 5     Bosnian commission that was headed by Amir Masovic?  Thank you.

 6        A.   In relation to what specifically?  Surface remains?

 7        Q.   Yes, that's correct.  Thank you.

 8        A.   Your Honour, I'm sure I've read those reports.  I dealt with

 9     Mr. Masovic.  I requested information in relation to exhumations.  I

10     don't specifically recall that, and I didn't incorporate that material

11     into my reports, which were related to the Srebrenica mass graves, not

12     the surface remains.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And when, as you said, you handed matters over to the

14     federal government and to the federal commissions, did you know at the

15     time what function Amir Masovic held during the war, whether he had been

16     a member of the BH army, whether he was a member of the exchange

17     commission, and might that have had any influence on the job that he was

18     later doing, the responsibilities that you handed over to him?

19        A.   I am aware that Mr. Masovic was involved in the transfer of

20     bodies during the war, that had no impact on the decision to hand over

21     the bodies -- sorry, the responsibility for the mass graves to the

22     Bosnian commission.  That responsibility was handed to the commission,

23     not to Mr. Masovic personally.

24        Q.   Thank you.  And was Mr. Masovic working in that federal

25     commission to which you entrusted the work that had been done by the

Page 10233

 1     international commissions and international bodies?

 2        A.   Yes, he was.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And you - and it was you who decided to hand matters

 4     over - did you investigate the role of Mr. Masovic during 1995?  Thank

 5     you.

 6        A.   No, I did not.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Please, if possible, let's look at the transcript,

 8     1946 from the Popovic case, and I will quote what you said:

 9             "I was involved" --

10             I apologise.

11             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is 65 ter 0675.  Once again, this is 65 ter

12     0675.  It's on the screen.  Please indicate which page you want to see.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I wanted

14     1904, lines 2 to 7, from the Popovic case.  I might have misspoken; I

15     apologise.  I would like to quote that to the witness.  Thank you.  And I

16     quote what the witness said on that page in lines 2 to 7.

17             The witness said, I quote:  "I was involved" --

18             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We don't have it on the screen, Mr. Tolimir.  I

19     think it can't be the right page.  1904.  We have now 18905 on the

20     screen.

21             Could you please check again.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I would like 1904,

23     lines 2 to 7.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is now 18904.  Do you mean that page,

25     Mr. Tolimir?

Page 10234

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I wanted

 2     1904.  Page 1904.

 3             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  That can't be -- this can't be the right page.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I might

 5     have written down the wrong reference.  I would like to read what the

 6     witness said and then maybe based on that, we will later find the page

 7     and have the correct reference.

 8             I quote --

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I would be happy if that could be enlarged.

10             Please, continue, Mr. Tolimir.

11             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   "I was involved in an operation in which weapons were seized from

13     the Bratunac and other brigades.  These weapons were then tested and the

14     cartridges were examined by the ATF.  At that time, these weapons were

15     returned to the relevant units.  In that case, we did not examine the

16     weapons forensically but we examined the casings which had been fired

17     from those weapons.  It's probably the same thing."

18             And after you were presented with the statement that you had

19     given in the Blagojevic cases where you said that the results of the

20     tests were wrong, as you said, negative, in lines 21 to 25 you said, and

21     I quote:

22             "According to my information, the firing of bullets for testing

23     resulted in hundreds of casings.  These were examined and they were

24     negative; that is, they were unreliable.  But I wasn't involved in the

25     final stages of this process.  However, I agree that the results were

Page 10235

 1     negative."

 2             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, we don't have the right page on the

 3     screen.

 4             Again, please check the page number.

 5             Mr. Gajic.

 6             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] We will check immediately about the

 7     page number and give you the correct reference.  Some numbers might have

 8     been permutated.

 9             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

10             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I'm sure Mr. Manning never said wrong or

11     unreliable in that context, but I'm sure he will remember the subject

12     matter and can answer questions on it without a problem.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  I'm sure he can, but we want to have the right

14     page on the screen.

15             But, first, I would invite Mr. Tolimir to put his question to the

16     witness.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

18             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Did you say that the results were negative after bullets were

20     fired from the weapon that had been seized from the Bratunac and other

21     brigades?  Thank you.

22        A.   Yes, I did.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us, what was the goal of this forensic

24     examination?  Why were bullets fired or rounds fired from these seized

25     weapons?  Thank you.

Page 10236

 1        A.   Your Honours, I spoke before about the shell cases which had been

 2     collected from the mass graves.  We seized a significant number of

 3     weapons.  We took those to a military base, an American military base.  I

 4     was in charge of the operation to fire two rounds from each weapon that

 5     could be fired.  We collected the shell case, the two shell cases that we

 6     produced, and they were then conveyed to the ATF, American Alcohol,

 7     Tobacco, and Fire-Arms Agency, to compare to the shell cases which we had

 8     previously found in the mass graves.  The process was designed to see if

 9     any of those weapons that we seized were the same as the weapons that had

10     fired the shell cases, which had been found in the mass graves.

11             To my knowledge, that was negative, but the OTP and the

12     investigations team could update you as to what happened thereafter.

13             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. McCloskey.

14             MR. McCLOSKEY:  The proper transcript page for that, I believe we

15     found is 19094, where he is speaking of this.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

17             Mr. Tolimir, please continue.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. McCloskey, for the

19     reference, for the page reference.

20             I would now like to look at this exhibit, 1D595, please, in

21     e-court.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  This is not on the list of your documents to be

23     used with the witness.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  This is just a part of

25     what he said, what Mr. Manning said during his previous testimony.  I

Page 10237

 1     apologise that we didn't put it on the list.  We didn't know that we

 2     would need to get to it.  Thank you.

 3             MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   I would like Mr. Manning to look at the part where it says,

 5     clearly, it says:

 6             "The results of the examination show that none of these cartridge

 7     cases previously submitted under this laboratory number and listed as

 8     submissions 1 through 7."

 9             My question is:  During your investigation, did you ever obtain

10     the weapons which you used to fire the rounds that were sent to

11     investigation -- during your examination of the mass graves, did you ever

12     obtain those weapons?  Thank you.

13        A.   If you mean did we locate the weapons that had fired the bullets

14     and the shell cases located within the mass graves, not to my knowledge,

15     no, we did not.  But, again, OTP could update that.  But not to my

16     knowledge.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Then please tell me why this was sent to the bureau

18     for alcohol, tobacco and fire-arms?  Were there any indications

19     beforehand about anything or was this sent based on the personal

20     assessment of the investigator involved?  Thank you.

21        A.   Sir, if you are referring to this document, I had left the

22     Tribunal when this process was undertaken, so I can't answer in relation

23     to this exhibit.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Bearing in mind what you said, I would like to ask

25     the Trial Chamber to admit document 1D591, please.

Page 10238

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Is it just this page or is it a voluminous

 2     report?  I don't know about that.

 3             Mr. Gajic.

 4             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is a one-page

 5     report.  It is a one-page report, as far as I know.  And 1D591 is,

 6     indeed, on the list that I sent.  I'm sorry.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  We had earlier another number.  Yes, on your

 8     list, you have 1D591.  But, on the screen, we have 1D595.  Perhaps it was

 9     a typo in your list; I don't know.

10             Mr. McCloskey.

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, this particular document, as far

12     as I know, does reflect the subject -- same subject matter that the

13     witness has talked about.  I think the results just came in formally

14     after he'd left.  So this is connected to this material, and we have no

15     objection to it going into evidence.

16             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Gajic.

17             MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just a small

18     clarification.

19             1D591 is, indeed, the document that we see on the screen.  I'm

20     looking at the version which I can see in e-court and what we have on the

21     screens.

22             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Then we received a wrong translation or whatever.

23     But now it's clarified and this document will be received.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, 65 ter document 1D591 shall be

25     assigned Exhibit D167.  Thank you.

Page 10239

 1             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Mr. Tolimir, I think this concludes the hearing

 2     of today.  We have to adjourn.  And we will resume tomorrow morning at

 3     9.00 in this courtroom.

 4             Please be reminded that you are not allowed to communicate with

 5     either party about the content of your examination.

 6             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE FLUEGGE:  Thank you very much.

 8             We adjourn.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

11                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 23rd day of

12                           February, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.